1 Monday, 11 June 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning,Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Krnojelac, we're in another courtroom

10 temporarily, I believe, but are you able to hear the proceedings in a

11 language which you understand? You needn't [Realtime transcript read in

12 error: "Need to"] stand up.

13 THE ACCUSED: (Interpretation) Your Honour, thank you very much.

14 Yes, I can follow the proceedings.

15 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, I think that I was misunderstood,

16 certainly by the court reporters. I said you need not stand up, but thank

17 you for standing up.

18 Yes. Now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. You're all a very long way away

19 from us here.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Good morning, Your Honours.

21 WITNESS: ARSENIJE KRNOJELAC [Resumed]

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krnojelac.

25 A. Good morning.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher -- I cannot see

2 the witness properly. This machine is right in his face. This time it is

3 me complaining about this. We will need the machine, so you better put it

4 this way. We will need it right now. Yes. Thank you.

5 Q. Sir, before the break, you had told us that you had a kind of

6 coffee room where the drivers were waiting to get tasks. You were sitting

7 there and having coffee occasionally, and you wanted to show us this room

8 on a plan but it didn't work last time. We will try this now again.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

10 show the witness the plan number 6. You have to get the plan from the

11 registrar.

12 A. Please, the screen isn't working.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Usher, I'll just show you what to put on the

14 ELMO.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Would you also ask the usher to turn the witness's

16 screen on so that he can watch the typing.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The other way round. It's upside down. Why

18 would you not be able to do it? You just have to fold it. Just fold it a

19 little bit different. Please move it a little bit so that the metalwork

20 shop is in the middle. Please move it. Yes. Fine.

21 Could the technical people just focus a little bit more on --

22 bring it a little bit wider so that we can read. The technical people,

23 can you focus in a little bit more on "Metalshop" so that these two words

24 can be read properly.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Do you want it closer or further away?

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, closer. A little bit closer. Yes,

2 thank you. That's okay.

3 Q. Sir, if you look at this map now shown on your screen, can you

4 point to us the room where you were having coffee, the drivers were

5 sitting occasionally when they got a task?

6 A. [Indicates].

7 Q. Can you show it?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Usher, you just let him point on the screen,

9 and you point with your finger in the map on the exact spot.

10 Q. Sir, would you please again point with the pointer onto your

11 screen. Sir, would you please point again onto the screen where the room

12 is.

13 A. I can't read this. I can't see here where that little room of

14 ours was by the entrance into the metal shop. I see the metal shop here.

15 It says something like metal s-n-o-p, whatever. I guess that's the metal

16 shop. Then there is the garage apart from the metal shop. That's right.

17 Q. Sir, when you see this building called metal shop, radionica,

18 where was -- was the waiting room in this building radionica, metal shop?

19 JUDGE HUNT: Both buildings are called that.

20 A. [No translation].

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

22 Q. "Ne." Where, then? You see the gate, you see the gate on this

23 plan.

24 A. I don't understand. What are you referring to? If you're

25 referring to this gate up here, I don't understand which gate. As for our

1 room, it was outside the metal shop by the garage where the fuel was kept,

2 underneath that roof. And for finding my way here, I really can't.

3 Q. Yes. When you went into this room, you had to cross through the

4 door into the metalwork shop compound, right?

5 A. No, no. I did not have to enter the metalwork shop. That is

6 separate from the metalwork shop, separate from the wall where you entered

7 into the metalwork shop.

8 Q. I was not speaking about entering the metalwork shop but the

9 metalwork shop compound, this area where the two buildings, metalwork

10 shops, were.

11 A. Within the compound where these buildings were? That's not where

12 our room was, where before the war we got orders for driving, where our

13 boss was. We had a room that we called the smoking room. We would wait

14 for travel orders there, and we'd sit there, things like that. But

15 please, I can't hear you very well, so could you please turn the volume up

16 a bit.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Usher, would you please turn up the volume

18 for the witness. The volume it's obviously -- yes. This is not working?

19 The volume of the headphone so that he can hear the interpretation better.

20 THE USHER: We can't do anything from here.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Would you go and do it? Thank you. The volume is at

22 the top of the microphone stand. It's on the side, is it? All right.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

24 Q. So, can you hear me better now? It's now loud?

25 A. I can hear it, but it's way too loud.

1 Q. So can you hear me better now? Is that okay now?

2 A. That's fine, yes.

3 Q. You said that the room where you smoked and had a coffee was in

4 the same spot where the gas was stored. Did I understand that correctly?

5 A. We did not have coffee in that room. We had coffee about 50

6 metres away near the restaurant. And before the war, we had coffee within

7 the administration premises of the KP Dom itself. My understanding was

8 that you asked me whether we kept gas, like for a gas stove. No. There

9 was a separate room where we kept fuel, fuel, and that was outside the

10 metalwork shop area.

11 Q. And that is where you said you were smoking occasionally and

12 get -- and waiting?

13 A. I didn't understand your question.

14 Q. We were talking about the room where you were occasionally, where

15 you and other drivers were waiting and where the duty officer came to give

16 you tasks. And this room is near this fuel storage place; is that

17 correct?

18 A. No. Well, it is nearby, underneath the same roof, but it faces

19 the main street that leads to the hospital. There was the first garage

20 there. That's where the fuel was. And then there was the second garage

21 for the smaller vehicles and that is where they were parked, and then in

22 that same part a wall had partitioned off a small room. I can't remember

23 how big it was exactly, two by three metres, perhaps, and that's where the

24 head of transportation was.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we fold it now a little bit different?

1 Can you give me the map, please, usher?

2 JUDGE HUNT: It must have been the noisiest map in creation.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Stop.

4 Q. Now where you can also see the auto mechanic shop, can you point

5 it out to us now, this place where you were waiting? Is it now on this

6 part?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Is it -- would it be to the right or to the left of the map, this

9 part you see?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I just have a

13 suggestion. Could it perhaps be moved a little bit, because part of the

14 metalwork shop can't be see this way. Could the floor plan be moved a bit

15 to the left so that the entire metalwork shop compound could be seen with

16 all the buildings included? Thank you.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Just move it a little bit to the left. Yes.

18 Thank you. Now can we have a little bit closer that the words -- yes.

19 Stop.

20 Q. Sir, is it now possible for you to show us where you were?

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Usher, please point it out to us on the ELMO

22 with your finger.

23 A. I can see the road that leads to the hospital, as far as I can

24 read this. However, I can't really see here. I can't see the wall in

25 the -- on the metalwork shop. This picture doesn't seem right. The

1 heating room facility is on the left, and we should be somewhere on my

2 left.

3 So this is the boiler room facility, as far as I can see. Yes,

4 the boiler room facility.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

6 Q. Yes, that's the boiler room facility?

7 A. The boiler room facility, yes. The workshop and the boiler room

8 facility is a bit further up, and this is right here.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise for interrupting, but

12 I have a suggestion. Perhaps we could help the witness. Perhaps the

13 usher could show him where the entrance into the KP Dom is, entrance

14 number one, and into the metalwork shop, and then in relation to that,

15 perhaps he could orient himself.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Well, anything that you can do to help him.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

18 JUDGE HUNT: He's pointed out the road which suggests he's fairly

19 well oriented generally, but let's try this and see how we go. It's

20 taking a very long time.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. This is here -- this part is the --

22 this is the entrance to the metal compound. So show him with your finger

23 where the entrance is.

24 A. The garage, the boiler room facility.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The usher is now showing him the entrance to

1 the metal compound.

2 Q. Sir, when you see what the usher is showing you -- this is the

3 metal compound and the entrance, and you see on top is one building,

4 metalwork shop, and below is another metalwork shop. In which place were

5 you waiting, in the lower building or the upper building?

6 A. By these two buildings? That's not where our room was, near

7 neither of these two buildings. It was outside the buildings. From the

8 compound, the entrance into the KP Dom, it is from that compound, not from

9 the metalwork shop.

10 Q. Sir, when I understand you correctly, to get to this waiting-room,

11 you did not have to go through the gate into the metal compound. You

12 could enter it from outside directly into this room. Is that what you

13 say?

14 A. That's what I say. And from the metalwork shop, we could not at

15 all. It is precisely from the compound, from the entrance in front of the

16 building.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'll move on. Please, it's over. Yes. I'll

19 move on to another part.

20 Q. Sir, did you ever take detainees to the house of your brother

21 Milorad for work?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever bring materials to the house of your brother,

24 materials from the KP Dom?

25 A. No.

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1 Q. You are aware that detainees worked on your brother's house,

2 aren't you?

3 A. I'm aware that they worked on my brother's house.

4 Q. They removed rubble, rubble from the burning, right?

5 A. Those days I did not stop by, but I heard that it was being

6 cleaned up, all the rubble that was left in the building and outside the

7 building around it.

8 Q. And the detainees in the metalwork shop made a metal staircase for

9 the house, right?

10 A. I don't know about that. I'm not aware of that.

11 Q. During the war, Milorad Krnojelac lived in an apartment of

12 Dr. Ismet Sosevic, right?

13 A. I know that after living in the hotel he lived in an apartment,

14 not a house, but I don't know whose it was.

15 Q. His son Bozidar lived also in a ground floor apartment that

16 formerly had belonged to a Muslim family, right?

17 A. Believe me, I don't know until the present day whether he lived in

18 that apartment or wherever. I never visited him.

19 Q. Bozidar runs now the Cafe Uno, right?

20 A. Bozidar and Bogdan are twins. He has a cafe. I don't know what

21 it's called.

22 Q. Detainees from the KP Dom made shelves for this cafe, right?

23 You're aware of this?

24 A. I'm not aware of that.

25 Q. Sir, you told us that you and your wife and Mr. Krnojelac and his

1 wife, you went to Belgrade when your sons were injured. What injuries did

2 your son --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What injuries did your son sustain?

5 A. My son sustained the same kind of injuries that his son had

6 sustained, that is to say that his legs were amputated.

7 Q. And where did you stay? Where did you stay in Belgrade? You said

8 you stayed there for ten to 15 days, and where did you stay?

9 A. During that time we stayed with our friends in Belgrade.

10 Q. You stayed at a different house than your brother and his wife,

11 right?

12 A. He stayed with Leka Kalajdzic, and I stayed with Njegos Djukovic

13 because he is my wife's first cousin.

14 Q. You did not return together from Belgrade to Foca. I mean your

15 brother and you, you did not return together, right?

16 A. Please repeat that question, I didn't understand you.

17 Q. You did not return from Belgrade to Foca together with your

18 brother and his wife, right? You drove separate.

19 A. We drove separately to Belgrade and we returned together from

20 Belgrade because his son left earlier and we stayed longer to see whether

21 our children will survive this crisis.

22 Q. Sir, you mentioned -- was Mrs. Krnojelac also returning together

23 with you and Milorad? I mean Slavica Krnojelac, did she also return

24 together with you?

25 A. She returned together with us except that she went back after two

1 or three days, I can't remember exactly how many days, and then she stayed

2 in Belgrade for about a month, month and a half, as far as I could find

3 out.

4 Q. And which car drove Mr. Krnojelac to Belgrade? Was it the red

5 Yugo?

6 A. No. It was a white Golf.

7 Q. You said that the son drove it, the son drove Mr. Krnojelac.

8 Which son?

9 A. Son called Dubravko who worked in the SUP in Foca.

10 Q. You said that Dubravko returned earlier because of his job.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Isn't it the truth that Mr. Krnojelac, who had a much more

13 important job, he was the warden of the KP Dom, also returned much earlier

14 and went forth and back to Belgrade? Isn't that the truth?

15 A. That is not true that he returned because the children were in

16 question. He had another son that was injured at the same time. He had a

17 head injury. Shrapnels were in his head and he had to be operated, so he

18 decided to stay in Belgrade.

19 As far as I can recollect, when I returned my neighbour said, "So,

20 you stayed for 15 days," as I had some animals that he took care of and I

21 had to compensate him for his efforts.

22 Q. At that time, did Mr. Krnojelac, your brother, did he try to get

23 released from his position so that he could stay longer with his wounded

24 sons and it was not granted? Isn't that what happened?

25 A. I don't remember that.

1 Q. Besides going to Belgrade, you mentioned that you went with your

2 brother on a business trip to Kragujevac. That was a one-day trip,

3 right?

4 A. That was a two-day or three-day trip. I'm not quite sure. I

5 can't remember.

6 Q. And when was it?

7 A. It was, as far as I can remember, at the end of May, beginning of

8 June, as far as I can remember, and we went to get concentrate for

9 livestock feed. I can't remember the exact date though, the months

10 roughly. Sometime around there.

11 Q. And you said you drove twice with him to Niksic. Those two day

12 trips both, right?

13 A. No. In view of the fact that they couldn't be one-day trips,

14 because the situation was not the situation we had before the war when

15 goods were contracted, loaded, unloaded, and trucks returned the same

16 day. We had to beg, wait, look around where we would find the goods. The

17 payment system was not functioning. Then there was the question of

18 delivery of the goods, in this case furniture, and what he could take back

19 on the return trip.

20 So as far as I remember, but I know on one occasion - I can't

21 remember in which month that was - that we stayed there for two nights, in

22 fact, looking around, and when we returned, he was satisfied that he had

23 achieved something.

24 Q. You say you can't remember which month it was. Was it in 1992 or

25 1993?

1 A. I can't remember.

2 Q. And this second trip to Niksic, do you know when that was?

3 A. I cannot remember, because as far as I remember, this private

4 farmer from who we purchased concentrate, he had his own privately owned

5 mill. And then I went there alone on one occasion because we owed him

6 some money, and then somebody had to go to promise that we would pay, and

7 then we had to find Drvo Impex, which was a company we worked with before

8 for the transport of furniture, so that we could compensate the costs one

9 way or another. So he had to go again, but I can't remember the month.

10 Q. Sir, you are aware that detainees were taken away for exchanges,

11 right, in the years 1992 and 1993?

12 A. I do not know about that because I was not one of the people who

13 carried out those exchanges.

14 Q. Were you present when Muslim detainees were taken out for plum

15 picking?

16 A. No. It is quite possible that I went plum picking myself on my

17 own land and that I wasn't there.

18 Q. Sir, you mentioned that your brother was never a member of the SDS

19 party, but you also said that he was a member of the Communist Party like

20 many, many others, right?

21 A. He was a member of the Communist Party, which was the only party

22 that existed. And as far as I can remember, he was not a member of the

23 SDS when it was founded.

24 Q. At the time when your brother was a member of the Communist Party,

25 it was opportune to be a member of this party, right? It was very useful?

1 A. Well, I don't know what the benefit could be. I had no benefits

2 from it, but those were the conditions at the time.

3 Q. To make a career at that time during this communist system, it

4 helped to be a party member, right?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Why then were so many in this party? Why were you in this party?

7 A. That party united us so that we could live together and have a

8 better life.

9 Q. And to make a career, especially in public institutions and in

10 state-owned enterprises, you had to be in the Communist Party, right? It

11 was necessary?

12 A. It was not necessary, and whoever didn't want to be a member

13 didn't have to be a member.

14 Q. That's understood, but this member -- this person who was not a

15 member would not make it into the top ranks, right?

16 A. I don't know why they couldn't. I was a worker. I wasn't seeking

17 any position, so I don't know.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, no further questions.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Mr. Bakrac.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Just a couple of

21 questions.

22 Re-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

23 Q. During your testimony, Mr. Krnojelac, over the past few days, you

24 said that occasionally you carried food from the farm to the town shop and

25 that these were small quantities. Were there queues for those food

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1 products in front of those shops?

2 A. If I understand you correctly, you said I carried it. I didn't

3 carry it. I drove it there in a car.

4 These were small quantities which could not meet the needs of the

5 population. We were frequently short of electricity. It was difficult to

6 milk the cows by hand. Sometimes we could come late. There would be a

7 queue along the wall as the shop is on the road, and then a queue 20

8 metres long of two people, two by two, who would be waiting to get in.

9 And I saw this with my own eyes, that four people would share one package

10 of eggs. Even though the price was symbolic, they couldn't afford more.

11 Q. Thank you. When you mentioned a red Yugo, you said, as it says in

12 the transcript, that somebody gave him a Yugo to use. Was that Yugo given

13 to Milorad Krnojelac or to the KP Dom? Do you know that?

14 A. As far as I'm aware, I spoke with my own colleagues and workers of

15 the same rank as me, and as far as we knew, that Yugo was given to the

16 KP Dom for its use, and probably the institution as such gave it to

17 Milorad Krnojelac to use for local transport to the Red Cross offices or

18 somewhere else. Wherever he went, I don't know, but I know he often went

19 to the Red Cross.

20 Q. Do you know whether during 1992, when you went on business trips

21 with Krnojelac, were the telephone lines with Yugoslavia always

22 operational?

23 A. I know that they were not always working, but I couldn't tell you

24 with certainty if it hadn't been for what had happened with our children,

25 because we couldn't call the medical academy in Belgrade by phone, but we

1 frequently went to the post office and begged them to establish a

2 connection so that we could inform ourselves, because one of my son's

3 wife's was there with her child for close to a year and a half, I think.

4 Q. You said for almost a year and a half. How long did your son stay

5 for rehabilitation purposes in Belgrade in all?

6 A. As far as I can recollect, he stayed there for 16 or 17 months.

7 Believe me, that is the best I can do. I don't know exactly.

8 Q. When Mr. Krnojelac went with you to Belgrade, or to Niksic as you

9 told us, did he negotiate the subsequent delivery of goods there?

10 A. He would negotiate the next delivery, and at the same time, he

11 would familiarise himself with our pre-war customers that we used to do a

12 lot of business with before the war so that he appealed to them for

13 understanding. And as our customers, they did have understanding because

14 they knew us and realised what was happening to us in Bosnia.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. My last question to you, in the course of the

16 examination-in-chief and during the cross-examination, you spoke about

17 Mr. Radojica Tesovic. After the signing of the Dayton Agreements, do you

18 know where Radojica Tesovic went and what position he held?

19 A. Radojica Tesovic, as far as I am aware, because I didn't spend

20 much time around town, but I heard from my colleagues that he was in --

21 the president of the executive council of the assembly. That is what I

22 know, but that should be easy to learn.

23 Q. Could you tell us roughly what year that was?

24 A. I'm afraid I can't remember. It could have been 1996 or 7 because

25 we had the elections in 1998, as far as I can remember, and then he was

1 re-elected president of the executive council on behalf of the SDS.

2 Q. That was just what I was going to ask you. Which were the parties

3 that won in the elections and that were in power in town when this

4 gentleman was president of the executive council of the assembly?

5 A. There was the Serbian Radical Party that was established, and the

6 SDS were very close in terms of results so that as far as I know, again,

7 from what other people said, they shared power so that there was someone

8 from the radical party, I think it was Ljubo Veljovic, he was the

9 president, and Radojica was president of the executive council on behalf

10 of the SDS.

11 Q. Would you please repeat once again the name of Ljubo? He was

12 president of what?

13 A. He was president of the municipality.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The Defence

15 has no further questions for this witness.

16 JUDGE HUNT: You did ask him to repeat the name of Ljubo.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I didn't notice

18 that it was omitted in the LiveNote.

19 Q. Could you repeat the surname of the president of the municipality?

20 A. Veljovic, Ljubo Veljovic.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That's all

22 we have.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mr. Krnojelac, for coming to give

24 evidence. You're now free to leave.

25 The next two witnesses are --

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE HUNT: [Previous translation continues] witnesses with

3 protective measures in their favour, so we'll need the screens and we'll need

4 the blinds down on the side they come in.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] In the meantime, Your Honour, may I

7 address you?

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The Defence, under numbers ID D155

10 [as translated] and ID D146 and ID D147, has filed some 20 days ago some

11 additional expert reports and these were given to the Prosecution.

12 However, we may have made an error in line with Rule 94 bis which says

13 that these expert reports have to be disclosed to the opposing parties as

14 early as possible. They also have to be given to the registry. We did

15 supply sufficient copies but did not officially apply for these documents

16 to be registered, so I should like to take advantage of this opportunity,

17 if I may, to make this request for these expert reports to be registered.

18 We have filed them a long time ago and marked them as ID D -- with

19 ID D numbers, but we did not ask for them to be specifically entered into

20 the record.

21 JUDGE HUNT: If you filed them as part of your documents with the

22 ID D numbers, they are registered, as I understand it. They are not

23 evidence in the case. So you need not concern yourself about Rule 94 bis

24 so far as registration is concerned. 94 bis requires the Prosecution to

25 file a notice, which I don't know whether it has, as to whether it accepts

1 or rejects them.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we actually haven't had a -- we

3 didn't understand these binders that we got as a 94 bis motion.

4 JUDGE HUNT: That's understandable.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But we have actually a position, at least, to

6 the expert ID D146. That is the economic expert who speaks about -- he

7 speaks about the development in the Yugoslavia and in Bosnia, and we would

8 not want to cross-examine this expert. We would actually have no request

9 for cross-examination and could let it in as it is.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That's 146.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. This is Mr. Ivan Stojic, the expert on

12 economic matters.

13 JUDGE HUNT: As we're getting towards the end of the Defence case,

14 or at least I believe we are, when will you be able to state your attitude

15 towards 115 and 147?

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: 145 is the psychologist, and it's my

17 understanding that this psychologist will testify here, and then we want

18 to cross-examine this person.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I took it down as 115, but it's 145, is it?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Is it 145, Mr. Bakrac?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, 145 is the

23 psychologist, Ms. Ana Najman; 146 is the economist; and 147 is the law

24 professor, Professor Beatovic.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I've got a little -- when I read

1 the expertise of Dr. -- Professor Beatovic, that is 147, there is a lot

2 about incompetence and a lot of arguments in relation to mental state, and

3 I was wondering why it was so intensely discussed, and we were -- we

4 actually want to know from the Defence counsel if they want to argue that

5 he was in his state of -- mental state that didn't allow him to understand

6 what he was doing. If it is the case, we would want to cross-examine

7 Mr. Beatovic on this aspect of diminished responsibility and other

8 matters.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. Sir, would you sit down for one

11 moment. We're just discussing some documents. And the usher can get the

12 screens up while we're waiting.

13 Well, Mr. Bakrac, you did tell us that you were not raising any

14 Defence of diminished responsibility. Are you raising some other Defence

15 of incapacity?

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. We abide by our

17 position that our Defence is not based on diminished responsibility. But

18 Professor Beatovic's report contains certain elements of mitigating

19 circumstances, but certainly they do not indicate that the Defence will

20 rely on diminished responsibility or irresponsibility for the relevant

21 time of the indictment. The Defence has not changed its position at all.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you for that.

23 Well, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, that makes that clear. Probably a lot

24 of the report will not need to be examined if that is the way you've

25 described -- if the way you've described it is correct. Do you want to

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1 cross-examine that particular witness?

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour, we don't.

3 JUDGE HUNT: So it's only 145 you want to cross-examine?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Very well.

6 Mr. Bakrac, the way we'll deal with that, we'll admit all three

7 documents, but you'll have to produce whoever it was who made statement

8 145 for cross-examination.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but I would ask for

10 the possibility for the Defence to be granted the possibility, as there

11 were certain documents on testimony that appeared subsequently. So could

12 the Defence be allowed to complement the report of the economist by

13 examining him? So could you please allow us this possibility. As expert

14 Ms. Najman is coming anyway, could we also discuss the schedule until the

15 end of the Defence case?

16 JUDGE HUNT: I think that that's a matter we can come back to

17 after this witness has started, but at the moment, the documents which are

18 presently ID D145, 146, and 147 will be admitted into evidence as

19 Exhibits D145, 146, and 147. Exhibit D145 is subject to Ms. Najman being

20 called for cross-examination.

21 If you wish to add to the evidence of the professor -- I'm sorry,

22 the economist, that's document 146, D146, you may do so. But if you're

23 going to add to it in any substantial way, you'd be required to give

24 written notice to the Defence -- to the Prosecution of the additional

25 material.

1 Right. Well, now, sir, would you please stand up, and would you

2 make the solemn declaration which is in the document which the usher is

3 showing you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

7 WITNESS: WITNESS C

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the usher please

11 help. Since this is a protected witness, we have this piece of paper.

12 Could it be put in front of the witness, please, and then I have copies

13 for the Registry and the Prosecution.

14 JUDGE HUNT: This pseudonym document will be Exhibit D155, and it

15 will be under seal.

16 Examined by Mr. Bakrac:

17 Q. Good morning, sir.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. Since you have sought protection, I should like to ask you kindly

20 not to mention your name. You've been granted a pseudonym: Witness C.

21 So I'm asking you now whether this is your name and surname before the

22 pseudonym?

23 A. Yes, it is my name and surname.

24 Q. Underneath your name and surname do we have the date and place of

25 your birth written down?

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Thank you. I'm going to put a few questions to you now, but you

3 and I speak the same language, so could you please pause before you answer

4 so that my question could be interpreted and then please give your

5 answer.

6 Tell me, please, sir, what are you by ethnicity?

7 A. I'm a Serb -- by ethnicity I'm a Croat.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Oh, yes. I see the transcript has

9 been corrected now.

10 Q. Can you tell us where you live now, sir?

11 A. I live in Sarajevo now, and I spent the entire war in Sarajevo,

12 and I was born in Sarajevo.

13 Q. Can you tell us what you do now?

14 A. I'm retired now, retired.

15 Q. So what did you do before you retired? What was your profession?

16 A. Before I retired, I was employed at the dairy industry in

17 Sarajevo. I was a technician there, and I worked there throughout the

18 war.

19 Q. Have you had a criminal record ever?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know the accused, Milorad Krnojelac?

22 A. Yes, I know Milorad. I know him very well. I've known him for

23 39 years, that is to say, since 1962, and I don't think that --

24 Mr. Krnojelac doesn't belong here. He's not supposed to be there at that

25 table.

1 Q. You say that you've known him for 39 years. Are you related to

2 him in any way?

3 A. [redacted]

4 Q. [redacted]

5 A. [redacted]

6 JUDGE HUNT: That will be redacted. It's all right.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since the Defence

8 omitted to put this on that piece of paper, I just wanted to ask for

9 private session for that little moment, but I omitted to do so. So thank

10 you very much for having this redacted.

11 Q. Since when have you known Mr. Krnojelac?

12 A. Since 1962.

13 Q. In view of your relationship which you explained - please don't

14 repeat it. Please don't repeat the kinship involved - did you socialise

15 with him? How often?

16 A. We socialised a lot. We visited often. As a matter of fact, we

17 went on vacations together and we also celebrated the New Year together,

18 sometimes at his place, sometimes at mine.

19 Q. If I understood you correctly, you celebrated the New Year either

20 at your house or at his house. You took turns.

21 A. Exactly. That's the way it was. Often we would go for coffee at

22 their place or they would come for coffee at our place. It's not far

23 away. It's only about 70 kilometres.

24 Q. How often did you visit with each other? Was it once or twice a

25 week, a month, whatever?

1 A. When we felt like it in our hearts, and when we'd talk on the

2 phone or something, when they'd say, "Well, you know, why don't you come

3 for at least a cup of coffee?" and then we'd take the car and go there.

4 And it happened often, really often, it did.

5 Q. Did you also spend your summer vacations together, your family and

6 the family of Mr. Krnojelac?

7 A. Yes. Our families spent summer vacations together. Our children

8 played together. They have always been close, until this very day, and

9 I -- just as we have remained close, and I think we are going to remain

10 close always.

11 Q. This way of socialising and getting to see each other often, did

12 this way of life continue until the war?

13 A. Yes, and also after the war we managed to get together. We

14 continued to socialise as we had before.

15 Q. Can you remember, just before the war, when did you last see

16 Mr. Krnojelac?

17 A. We last saw each other at my daughter's wedding. I can give you

18 the date if you wish. It was the 21st of March, 1992.

19 Q. [redacted]

20 Please don't repeat that - and that she's an ethnic Croat as well, do you

21 know whether Catholic customs or holidays were celebrated in their home?

22 A. Catholic holidays were celebrated in their home. [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 Q. Did he forbid his wife to celebrate that?

1 A. No. On the contrary. We would meet there, because usually we

2 would go to my mother's place, but sometimes we would go to my sister's

3 place as well for Christmas.

4 Q. Since you've known Mr. Krnojelac for the past 39 years, as you

5 said, and that you intensively socialised and you spent summer vacations

6 together, et cetera, all the way up to the beginning of the war, did you

7 perhaps notice that Mr. Krnojelac had any kind of nationalist hang-ups,

8 that he was a nationalist? Did he draw a line of distinction between the

9 Serb ethnicity and all others?

10 A. It is my profound conviction that Mr. Krnojelac was never a

11 nationalist. I believe that he's not until the present day. Also, after

12 the war and now, judging by his attitude towards us and all the rest, I

13 could not notice in any way that he ever harboured such feelings.

14 I know in school he did not distinguish between children in terms

15 of ethnicity and religion. He looked at each and every child individually

16 in terms of how much that child knew and did not know. And that's exactly

17 the way he judged people, what they were like at heart, not what they were

18 by ethnicity.

19 Q. You said that Mr. Krnojelac, before the war, was a member of the

20 Communist Party.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was that customary at the time?

23 A. Well, look, at the time when he went to do his military service

24 and when I went to do my military service, those people who went to

25 reserve officer schools, an effort was made to take them into the party.

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1 I was never in the party. Mr. Krnojelac was because he was a reserve

2 officer.

3 Q. Tell me, please, independently of Mr. Krnojelac and yourself, in

4 your environment, was it customary, since the Communist Party was the only

5 party, that there was a one-party system, was it customary for people to

6 belong to the Communist Party in pre-war Yugoslavia and was this done en

7 masse?

8 A. Yes, en masse. People would become members of the Communist Party

9 because through their membership, some people would attain certain

10 positions. I, for one, was not ever a member. That's the way I was

11 brought up in my family, and I was not interested in that kind of thing.

12 Q. Tell me, just before the war and later during the war, do you know

13 whether Mr. Krnojelac became a member of some other party?

14 A. I don't think he did. And right now he would not belong to any

15 party because he saw that not a single party was the way it should be. I

16 know that he's not now.

17 Q. Do you know whether he was involved in politics at all?

18 A. He was not involved in politics as far as I know. He was only

19 involved in education, which is his profession, and he liked that.

20 Q. Did he talk to you about politics or some other subjects?

21 A. No. We never discussed politics. We talked about how we could

22 have a good time together when we met up for the new year and, otherwise,

23 how my children were doing, how his children were doing. That's what we

24 talked about. That's what we were interested in the most.

25 Q. You spent the war years in Sarajevo, if I understood you

1 correctly?

2 A. Yes. I was in Sarajevo all the time.

3 Q. What did you do during the war in Sarajevo?

4 A. I had a work obligation. I worked in the milk and dairy industry

5 of the town of Sarajevo, and that's where I carried out this work duty.

6 Q. Could you refuse that work duty?

7 A. No, no one could refuse anything because that was wartime. This

8 had to be done, this had to be done. I would even go trench digging.

9 Although I had my work obligation, I would even go and do that at night

10 because that's what work duty involved.

11 Q. You were encircled in Sarajevo. Was there sufficient food?

12 A. No. There was very little food, very little. There were some

13 days, and I don't like to remember that, even, when my wife and I would

14 have only beans cooked in water for lunch and for dinner. Those are days

15 that I would not like to remember.

16 And also, Mr. Krnojelac and I had agreed that when we would meet

17 up, that we should not discuss the war at all, that we should talk about

18 the future because we'd feel better that way.

19 Q. In these poor living conditions, did you change your attitude

20 towards Mr. Krnojelac or your opinion of Mr. Krnojelac?

21 A. No, not even during the worst days did I change my opinion or my

22 attitude until the present day, because I know -- I think that

23 Mr. Krnojelac has a good opinion of me as well because we really got along

24 very well.

25 When they were building a house, I also came to help them build

1 the house. We worked together that way before. It was very hard. He had

2 a teacher's salary, so whatever they earned, they earned through a lot of

3 effort, and all their efforts went down the drain as soon as the war

4 started because their house burned down.

5 Q. After the war ended, if I understood you correctly, you continued

6 to see Mr. Krnojelac and his family until his arrest and to live together

7 as you did before the war. Did anything change? Did I understand you

8 correctly?

9 A. Nothing changed. You understood me well. As soon as it was

10 possible to come from Sarajevo, I came to them to see them so that we

11 could see each other. We hadn't seen each other in four years. That had

12 been a long time for me, in particular. I had missed all of them, their

13 children and them, both of them. I really wanted to see both of them.

14 Q. [redacted] Please don't

15 repeat that. Has this been changed? Has this relationship changed during

16 the war, after the war?

17 A. No. Mr. Krnojelac's wife celebrates Catholic Christmas until the

18 present day.

19 Q. I was referring towards her relationship with Mr. Krnojelac and

20 her family.

21 A. No, nothing has changed in this relationship. And I think that

22 our relationship is even closer now because all of this has taught us that

23 a great evil had befallen Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war.

24 Q. I'm going to put my last question to you now. Please tell me your

25 opinion of Mr. Krnojelac, Mr. Krnojelac as a person.

1 A. I can only say good things about Mr. Krnojelac. That's the

2 impression that I've had of him. That he is a man who never intends to

3 distinguish between different people, regardless of whether they were

4 Serbs, Croats, Muslims, Jews, any other ethnicity. I say once again, all

5 people were people for him, depending on their nature, on their

6 characters, and that's how he took them.

7 Q. Tell me, please, do you know whether Milorad Krnojelac had a lot

8 of friends of other ethnicities?

9 A. Yes. Milorad had very many friends who were of other ethnicities,

10 and I know that when I would come to their home, that many people of other

11 ethnic backgrounds came, sat there, talked. He socialised with them a

12 lot. That's the kind of person he's been, and that's the kind of person

13 he'll continue to be in the future, I think.

14 Q. Thank you, sir.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, those were all the

16 questions that the Defence had of this witness.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Cross-examination, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

20 Q. Good morning, sir.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. Sir, I just want to clarify two matters. Did I understand you

23 correctly that it was expected from reserve officers to be members of the

24 communist party?

25 A. Yes, madam. In the former Yugoslav army, an effort was made and

1 officers had to be members of the party.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could the witness's other

3 microphone be turned on, please.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's not working.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Have you tried it? For the sake of the interpreters,

6 I'm told that it's going to be fixed during the morning adjournment, so I

7 hope that it will be.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But the other microphone may be moved a

9 little bit closer.

10 Q. Sir, if I understood you correctly, you, although you were also an

11 officer, a reserve officer, you did not join the party, right?

12 A. Madam, I was not a reserve officer. Mr. Krnojelac was.

13 Q. Yes, thank you. You said that the wife of Mr. Krnojelac

14 celebrated the Catholic holidays, but he did not because he was a member

15 of the party. What does that have to do with each other?

16 A. Well, you see, madam, although that was not the way it was written

17 down in the law, but when onlookers would see you celebrating Christmas or

18 some other religious holiday, they did not look upon that very kindly.

19 However, if your wife was celebrating, nobody could forbid you if you'd

20 have some cake or have a more festive atmosphere in the house.

21 Q. Sir, you did not see Mr. Krnojelac during the war. From March

22 1992 until 1996 you didn't see him, right?

23 A. Yes, that is right, that I did not see him in that period. I was

24 in Sarajevo and Mr. Krnojelac was in Foca.

25 Q. And you said that you agreed not to talk about the war. Is that

1 because you were actually on the other side? The two of you were on

2 different sides of the conflict parties? Is that the reason why you

3 agreed not to talk about the war?

4 A. No, madam, that was not the reason. The reason was that we did

5 not want to remember the bad days that took place, those that I spent in

6 Sarajevo and that Mr. Krnojelac spent in Foca. We said that we would look

7 into the future and to better days so that we -- our children would have a

8 better life, and we together with them.

9 Q. You said that you occasionally before the war you made telephone

10 calls. During the war, were you able to call him? Did you have any

11 contact with him at all?

12 A. Well, you see, madam, at the beginning of the war before their

13 house burned down, [redacted] called me and said, "Our house is on fire,"

14 and that was our last telephone conversation. However, during the war,

15 they tried and we tried to communicate through radio ham operators, and we

16 did not talk directly, therefore, but we made an effort from both sides to

17 communicate that way.

18 Q. And did you actually manage to communicate?

19 A. We managed seldom, whenever we could succeed, but we tried many

20 times because we were interested in how they were and how their children

21 were. And they were also interested in how we were doing because they

22 knew what kind of environment we were in.

23 Q. But you did not talk about what was going on during the war in

24 Foca, right?

25 A. Well, we couldn't. It's not that we couldn't, but when we

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1 communicated, we were only interested in hearing how everybody was,

2 whether everybody was healthy. Unfortunately, that's not the way it was

3 in their family because among their four children, they have two invalids

4 now.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, no further question.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination, Mr. Bakrac?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for coming to give evidence here

9 before the Tribunal. You may now leave.

10 Bearing in mind what's involved in getting the witnesses in and

11 out, and it is three minutes to 11.00, we'll take an early adjournment.

12 We'll resume at 11.30.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.57 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE HUNT: Madam, would you please stand up and make the solemn

17 declaration in the document which the usher is showing you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, madam.

21 WITNESS: WITNESS D

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac. I'm sorry. The pseudonym document

24 will be Exhibit D156, and it will be under seal. Yes.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

1 Examined by Mr. Bakrac:

2 Q. Madam, good morning. Let me ask you first, since we both speak

3 the same language, would you please wait a moment after you hear my

4 question for it to be interpreted before giving your answer. You can

5 follow the transcript also on the screen, and when you see the cursor

6 stop, then you can start giving your answer.

7 You have before you two pieces of paper.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. We better pull the blinds up. This

9 is not a closed session.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. On one piece it says "Witness D," and next to the pseudonym do you

12 see your first and last names?

13 A. Yes. That is my first and last name.

14 Q. Below your name, do you see the date and place of your birth?

15 A. Yes. That is the date and place of my birth.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, in order to overcome the problem we had

17 before, may I suggest you ask her simply whether she is the wife of the

18 previous witness.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you so much, and

20 I'm glad that we were thinking along the same lines, because I actually

21 placed a piece of paper with the letter "Witness C" before the witness and

22 was about to ask her whether Witness C was her husband.

23 A. Yes, that is my husband.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I unintentionally

25 switched off my headphones. So let me switch them back on again.

1 Q. Madam, would you be kind enough to tell me where you are living?

2 A. I am living in Sarajevo. Do you want my address?

3 Q. No, no. We don't need your address. Could you tell us what your

4 ethnicity is?

5 A. My ethnicity is Croat.

6 Q. Could you tell us what is your occupation?

7 A. I am an economic technician.

8 Q. I do apologise. Please make pauses.

9 A. Yes, I will. I'm sorry.

10 Q. And where are you employed?

11 A. Yes, I am employed [as interpreted].

12 Q. I think there's an error in the transcript. Allow me to repeat

13 the question. Please tell me: Are you employed or not?

14 A. I am unemployed. I worked until the war.

15 Q. Do you have a criminal record?

16 A. No.

17 Q. [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. For how long have you known Mr. Krnojelac?

21 A. Since 1965, that is, the day I got married to my husband. So I

22 have known him ever since that day, that is, Milorad Krnojelac.

23 Q. From 1965 until the war broke out in the territory of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina, would you see Mr. Krnojelac and his family members

25 frequently?

1 A. You see, this relationship between us was extremely and unusually

2 firm and close, and we saw each other very frequently.

3 Q. During the past 25 or 26 years, in view of your frequent contact,

4 did you have occasion to get to know Mr. Krnojelac well?

5 A. Yes, I knew him extremely well. I became very familiar with his

6 character.

7 Q. Apart from exchanging visits frequently as you have told us, would

8 you spend holidays together, celebrate the New Year together? Just wait a

9 moment, please, for the interpretation.

10 A. Yes, that was an established family ritual. One New Year's Eve we

11 would get together at our home, and then for the next New Year's Eve we'd

12 meet at his home. The same applies to our annual vacations, which we

13 would spend together.

14 Q. Did this friendship and these contacts continue until the actual

15 outbreak of the war? Could you tell us when you saw him for the last time

16 before the war?

17 A. These contacts went on until the actual outbreak of the war, this

18 terrible war. The last time when we were so happy together was when our

19 daughter got married. We were really ever so happy, not knowing in our --

20 not even in our wildest imagination could we expect the dreadful break

21 that would occur after that.

22 Q. Could you tell us, if you remember, the date?

23 A. It was the 21st of March, 1992.

24 Q. Did you spend the entire war in Sarajevo?

25 A. Yes, I spent all the time during the war in Sarajevo.

1 Q. Were you working then?

2 A. No.

3 Q. In view of the fact that you had known Mr. Krnojelac for so long

4 and that you exchanged visits, that you socialised a lot, that you

5 celebrated events together, were you able to really get to know him well?

6 A. Well, you see, one chooses one's friends on the basis of many

7 criteria; honesty and all other positive qualities, and that was -- and

8 that is in fact to this day, and I'm profoundly convinced of that, that

9 Milorad is just such a person.

10 Q. Throughout that period, or immediately prior to the war, did you

11 notice any nationalistic prejudice or bias in Milorad?

12 A. You see, our differences were never prominent. In view of this

13 long period, surely there would have been an occasion, a slip of the

14 tongue, anything that could indicate that, but there wasn't any. We just

15 didn't pay any attention to differences. We were bound by our bonds of

16 friendship, sincerity, [redacted]

17 Q. [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 A. On the contrary. His home was always open to all men regardless

21 of their ethnicity. I have the feeling now, when I give it some thought,

22 that in fact there were more people of other ethnicities, though I find it

23 very difficult to say it. He valued men by their qualities, by their

24 character, and not on the basis of their ethnicity. And I'm deeply

25 convinced that he enjoyed the utmost respect precisely because of these

1 characteristics of his.

2 Q. Just before the outbreak of the war in Bosnia, were you aware of

3 any kind of political involvement of Milorad Krnojelac or his affiliation

4 with any party?

5 A. We were very fortunate, because we were very happy to know that he

6 didn't join any camp. What I'm trying to say is that he hadn't joined any

7 party. So he remained a normal person with normal thoughts. He was not

8 swept up by anarchy.

9 Q. Let me ask you, madam, whether your life in Sarajevo in wartime

10 and everything that followed, the arrest of Milorad Krnojelac, did it

11 change your opinion of him? Are you telling us your opinion as it was

12 before the war or is it an opinion that stands today?

13 A. This was my opinion before the war, during the war, and now. If

14 that were not my opinion, I probably would have not come here.

15 Q. And relations within the family, that is, Mr. Krnojelac and his

16 wife [redacted], have they remain the same before the war, during the

17 war, and after the war?

18 A. This was a very healthy family that set an example to many large

19 families, because after all, it is my opinion that he had a highly

20 positive educational affect on his family members and all those who

21 socialised with him. After all, one can notice the feelings that ran

22 among the members of that family, among those children. It was indeed a

23 pleasure to watch and see. In their midst, one feels so relaxed, so

24 happy, and I really do think that his family misses him terribly.

25 Please forgive me for my emotional weakness.

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1 Q. Madam, I have finished my questions. Please take a drink of

2 water.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

4 further questions for this witness.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination.

6 Are you all right, madam? Are you able to go on at this stage?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

11 Q. Good morning, madam.

12 A. Good morning to you, too, madam.

13 Q. Madam, before the war, you didn't have any ethnic prejudices,

14 right?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Ethnicity of persons didn't really matter to you, right?

17 A. I didn't even notice it. I wasn't aware of it. We just didn't

18 register it. It was something alien to us.

19 Q. And this applied -- the same attitude a lot of people in the

20 former Yugoslavia shared, right? It didn't really matter whether you were

21 a Croat, a Muslim, or a Serb, right? You were neighbours and friends.

22 A. Precisely so, yes. Certainly.

23 Q. And all the three people and all the other minorities, they lived

24 happily together, right?

25 A. Very happily.

1 Q. This happiness and this friendship disappeared during the war,

2 unfortunately, and that's why you're very sad, right?

3 A. Very, very sad, yes.

4 Q. During the war, the hatred erupted among people who were friends,

5 right?

6 A. I have to tell you that among normal people, there wasn't any such

7 thing.

8 Q. But neighbours shot at each other suddenly during this war, right?

9 A. Yes, but there was a war which we did not expect.

10 Q. And the Serbs in Sarajevo suddenly shelled and shot with sniper

11 weapons at the Muslims and Croats, right, for several years even?

12 A. Yes, that was in Sarajevo.

13 Q. Yes. And neighbours suddenly during this war murdered neighbours,

14 right?

15 A. In my surroundings, no. Where I live, no.

16 Q. But you know that from other areas, that a lot of people got

17 murdered from actually their neighbours they had lived together with,

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the war changes people. Hatred and propaganda change people

21 sometimes, right?

22 A. I said a moment ago that among normal people, we still have normal

23 relations.

24 Q. But many normal people join war efforts and behave like they had

25 never done in peacetime, right?

1 A. I wouldn't quite put it like that. I was in Sarajevo. We didn't

2 hurt anyone or insult anyone, nor did anyone do anything bad to us.

3 That's how it was. We didn't shoot.

4 Q. You didn't shoot, but you were shot at. I mean, the citizens of

5 Sarajevo, they were shot at from the hills surrounding them, and you

6 hadn't done anything wrong.

7 A. Of course, yes.

8 Q. So war conditions change people to the worse very often, right?

9 A. I haven't changed.

10 Q. Okay.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination, Mr. Bakrac?

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, except -- I do

14 apologise. I'm sorry, maybe I was a bit hasty.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

16 Q. [Interpretation] You said that there were normal people who didn't

17 want the war, but they were drawn into it. Did I understand you right?

18 A. Yes, precisely so.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

20 further questions.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, madam, for coming to give evidence and

22 thank you for the evidence you've given. You are now free to leave. Just

23 wait until the usher is able to escort you out after the blinds have been

24 lowered.

25 Mr. Bakrac, whilst we're changing witnesses, you wanted to say

1 something about the future witnesses.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Things went very

3 quickly with the last two witnesses. We have another three witnesses

4 planned. The first will be coming as soon as this witness leaves the

5 courtroom, and another two, and I assume that we will be able to complete

6 these witnesses in the course of this week. At our pre-Defence

7 conference, we had made the request that upon the completion of all

8 witness testimony we are given a week for the accused to have a rest and

9 for the Defence to have a breather, and after that week we would call the

10 accused to testify, and after his testimony, the expert witness, Ms. Ana

11 Najman, and also one or both of the remaining expert witnesses,

12 Mr. Beatovic and Mr. Tosic.

13 That is what I wished to convey as the intentions of the Defence,

14 if we could fix the schedule in this way until the end of the Defence

15 case.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE HUNT: I hasten to add, we didn't agree to that one week.

18 We said we'd see how we were going. We'll still see how we're going.

19 There are two other witnesses who have been listed and who you

20 have not given us in a list for actual hearing. Number two, Cedo Rasevic?

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We have informed you that Mr. Rasevic

22 is ill. He said he was unable to travel for a videolink or to come here

23 so that we have withdrawn that witness. And we have another witness whose

24 wife would not let him come. He was supposed to come in the first group.

25 I don't think the situation has changed. He hasn't changed his wife, so

1 his position hasn't changed either.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Neither has he changed his wife's mind. Very well,

3 then. Well, that was number 3, Mr. Peter Ivica.

4 Now, the next witness that is listed for today is one of those

5 giving evidence about the general events, as I understand it, and the

6 economic unit. He may take a little while. How long do you think you'll

7 take with the three remaining witnesses then before you call your client?

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague Mr. Vasic

9 will be examining the next witness, and I think it will probably take

10 until the end of the day. And as for the last two witnesses, I think that

11 the Defence could examine them in one day. Of course, we don't know how

12 long the cross-examination will last. So that if we're talking just about

13 the time that the Defence needs for the examination-in-chief, I think we

14 will be able to complete the next witness by the end of the day and that

15 we would need one day for the remaining two. So two days would be left

16 for the cross-examination. So I think that by the end of the week, we

17 will have completed the witnesses, but maybe we should consult the

18 Prosecution too.

19 JUDGE HUNT: And we might come back to it later this week, when we

20 see how these witnesses are going, to determine what the future should

21 be.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE HUNT: Now, sir, would you please make the solemn

24 declaration in the document which the usher is showing you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

3 WITNESS: BOZO DRAKUL

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

8 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. Could you please be so kind as to give your name and surname,

11 first.

12 A. My name is Bozo Drakul. I was born on the 10th of June, 1939 in

13 the village of Zakno, municipality of Foca.

14 Q. Thank you, sir. Before I start the examination-in-chief, I would

15 like to ask you the following: Since you and I speak the same language,

16 could you please pause after I put my questions so that the question could

17 be interpreted fully and then give your answer, please.

18 A. I have understood what you said.

19 Q. If it's easier for you this way, there should be a text on the

20 screen in front of you, and when the black cursor stops, that means that

21 the question has been interpreted and you can start answering. So thank

22 you in advance.

23 Sir, can you tell us what you are by profession?

24 A. I am an economist by profession. I graduated from elementary

25 school in Foca, secondary economic school in Belgrade, the higher economic

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1 commercial school in Sarajevo.

2 Q. Are you married?

3 A. I'm married. I have two children.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, when you finished school, where

5 did you get a job and when?

6 A. In 1960 I started working at or, rather, in the Yugoslav People's

7 Army as a civilian serving in the military in Foca.

8 Q. In which JNA unit did you work then as a civilian?

9 A. That was a unit, a military area carrying out construction work

10 between Foca and Visegrad, Foca and Gacko on the road. I worked in that

11 unit. That was the military unit for building roads.

12 Q. What jobs did you have in this unit?

13 A. From the beginning until the end of my working years, I was a

14 bookkeeper.

15 Q. Have you done your military service?

16 A. Yes, in 1962, 1963.

17 Q. Did you have a rank in the reserve forces?

18 A. When I did my military service, I went to reserve officer school

19 and I was made a reserve lieutenant, a reserve second lieutenant dealing

20 in financial matters. And then when I finished my military service, I

21 became a lieutenant, again belonging to the financial profession.

22 Q. You said when you finished your military service. When did you

23 finish your military service with the rank of lieutenant?

24 A. I was born in 1939 [Realtime transcript read in error: "1993"],

25 and people could be on the reserve force of the Territorial Defence only

1 until the age of 50. I was dismissed from the reserve force of the

2 Territorial Defence a bit earlier, and I was transferred to the Civil

3 Defence.

4 Q. Thank you, sir.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to intervene in the

6 transcript, page 40, line 15. Instead of "1939," as the witness said, the

7 typing was reversed so it's "1993." So it should be 39. Thank you.

8 In order to make things clearer, should I repeat my question?

9 Q. When were you born?

10 A. I was born on the 10th of June, 1939.

11 Q. Thank you, sir. Have you ever had a criminal record?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Sir, you said that you started working as a civilian in the JNA in

14 1960.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Until when did you work in the Yugoslav People's Army?

17 A. I worked in the Yugoslav People's Army until November 1968.

18 Q. And then in November 1968, where did you get a job then?

19 A. Since I started family and this involved a lot of work in the

20 field, I was -- I went -- I was employed by the KP Dom Foca.

21 Q. What job did you hold at the KP Dom Foca?

22 A. I spent my entire career in bookkeeping. And in the KP Dom I was

23 in charge of the bookkeeping of the Drina Economic Unit.

24 Q. Until when were you in charge of keeping the books of the Drina

25 Economic Unit in the KP Dom Foca?

1 A. Until when? Until the end of my working years, until I retired,

2 and I retired in January 2000.

3 Q. You said to us that you were in charge of the bookkeeping in the

4 Drina Economic Unit. Can you tell us briefly what the organisation of the

5 Drina Economic Unit was like before the war?

6 A. The director of the Drina Economic Unit was a person who was in

7 charge of the overall economic activity of the KP Dom within the Drina

8 productive unit. After that, further down the ladder, there were services

9 on the one hand and production units on the other hand, so there is an

10 economic and financial service. Within that service, there is a financial

11 service and a commercial service, and then there are different jobs,

12 posts, in those services.

13 On the other hand, there is production. The production unit

14 involved the furniture factory as the biggest unit, and then the farm,

15 then the metal processing plant, then the shirt factory, then the

16 construction unit, the unit for the production of fish, fisheries, and the

17 printing press. I don't think I've omitted anything. May I just add

18 something: I omitted to mention the catering unit.

19 Q. Bookkeeping is what you headed?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In this organisational schematic that you just presented to us,

22 what unit did you belong to before the war broke out?

23 A. I don't understand your question. What do you mean by that?

24 Q. You said that the Drina Economic Unit consisted of work units and

25 financial and economic services.

1 A. Yes. I said economic commercial service, and it consisted of the

2 financial service and the commercial service. Within the financial

3 service is bookkeeping, and that's where I worked.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. That was my question, actually. Can you tell me,

5 please, who was the director of the Drina Economic Unit before the war

6 broke out?

7 A. Miljenko Simovic.

8 Q. Did he remain director of the Drina Economic Unit after the war

9 broke out?

10 A. After the war broke out, I didn't see him any more. He must have

11 gone somewhere, but where, I don't know.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, did you live in Foca when the

13 war broke out and, if so, in which neighbourhood?

14 A. I was in Foca. I lived in Donje Polje. I had a house in the

15 street called Partizanski Put.

16 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, do you remember which was your

17 last working day in the KP Dom Foca at your particular workplace in 1992?

18 A. I think it was the 7th or 8th of April, but it was a Wednesday.

19 Q. Did you go to work the next day?

20 A. That day I went to work, like any other day, around a quarter to

21 7.00, because that's how much time I need from my home to the KP Dom where

22 I work. When I walked down a small street towards the main street that

23 leads to the KP Dom, there is a place called Cafe Bor there, I came across

24 a freight vehicle which was obstructing the road. I saw people in uniform

25 wearing some kind of green berets, and there were also some civilians

1 there as well who had weapons, and they were moving around that vehicle.

2 I knew some of them, and I said to them, "I have to go to work at the KP

3 Dom. May I pass?" And they let me pass, and I got to the KP Dom.

4 Q. Do you remember, perhaps, someone who was at that roadblock by the

5 Cafe Bor that you mentioned just now?

6 A. I can't remember any names. I know that one person's last name

7 was Subasic and the other one Kubat. I'm not sure what their first names

8 were, so I don't really want to go into that.

9 Q. Sir, you said that that's how you got to the KP Dom. Who did you

10 find in the KP Dom when you arrived there?

11 A. When I came in front of the KP Dom I saw two -- I saw soldiers in

12 uniform once again, and I spoke to one of them. I said, "I came to work

13 here. I worked here before the war too. May I come in?" He said, "Yes,

14 you can. Go ahead."

15 Then I found out that this was some kind of a work unit called

16 Beli Orlovi. Something like that, I think. They didn't speak the way we

17 Bosnians speak. They had a Serbian accent.

18 Q. So you said to us that day, on the 8th of April when you came to

19 the KP Dom, you saw the Beli Orlovi?

20 A. On the 8th of April when I got there -- I do apologise, it's not

21 the 8th of April. I thought you were asking me about after the war

22 conflict who I found there. I thought that was your question, not the 8th

23 of April. Oh, I'm so sorry. I thought you asked me who I found at the KP

24 Dom after the war operations when I got there.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac -- I'm sorry, Mr. Vasic.

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Hunt, please.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. He said it was either the 7th or the 8th,

3 but it was the Wednesday. Now, are you talking about the Wednesday? May

4 I suggest you ask him about the Wednesday and then we're clear.

5 A. It is a Wednesday, but the Wednesday when I got to work, the war

6 hadn't started yet. It was still peacetime. I understood the gentleman

7 who was putting these questions to me who I found there after I returned

8 to the KP Dom after the war, so I started telling you about that, after

9 the war.

10 JUDGE HUNT: We're all clear on that now. Do you want him to

11 proceed on that, or do you want to go back to the Wednesday?

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Sir, I just wanted you to continue what you already told us. You

14 said that you got to the KP Dom after you passed the Cafe Bor, so that is

15 to say as soon as the conflict broke out in Foca.

16 A. If that is the 8th of April, then I'll continue in terms of what

17 happened then. On the 8th of April when I passed the roadblock, I came to

18 the KP Dom unhindered. I walked into my office, and I found none of the

19 clerks who worked there with me. I spent another half hour there. I saw

20 that no one was coming, and I went out of the office and returned to the

21 restaurant to have a cup of coffee. In the restaurant I found Dr. Ismet

22 Sosevic, who worked as a physician there, and I sat at the same table with

23 him and we had a cup of coffee. That was it.

24 Q. May I just ask you something: You said that you came to your

25 office and that there was no one there?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us, first of all, where your office was?

3 A. When you enter the KP Dom, in the old part of the building on the

4 first floor, when you get out you turn to the right down the hallway, and

5 the last office is my office.

6 Q. Which office was upstairs above your office?

7 A. On the next floor above my office was the warden's office.

8 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, what was the ethnic composition

9 of the service that you worked in like then, and you said that you found

10 no one there at your office?

11 A. There was a mixed ethnic composition in our office. If you are

12 referring to ethnicity, Serbs and Muslims, it was sort of half/half.

13 Q. You said to us that in the restaurant you found Mr. Sosevic and

14 that you had a cup of coffee there. What happened after that?

15 A. We were both aware what was in the making and what awaited us.

16 That's why we were complaining to each other.

17 And then we left the restaurant together and went home. We were

18 walking together again. We walked to the roadblock, the truck by the Cafe

19 Bor. They let us get into town again. Then we walked together to the

20 first bridge on the Cehotina. I turned left to my home and he proceeded

21 to his apartment.

22 Q. Sir, tell us, please, where was your family then?

23 A. My family, that is to say, my wife, my mother, and my daughter,

24 were at home.

25 Q. By then had there been any armed clashes in town?

1 A. No, no armed clashes yet except for some smaller provocations.

2 You'd hear someone firing a gunshot or two, but there wasn't an armed

3 conflict going on yet.

4 Q. Can you tell us when the real armed conflict started actually?

5 A. I came home. It was around 9.30. My wife asked me whether I had

6 breakfast, and I said "No," and she found something for me to eat for

7 breakfast. And just when I sat at the table, when I wanted to start

8 having breakfast, I heard from the direction of Cafe Bor five or six

9 gunshots. And then above my house there aren't any more houses, there is

10 just a pine forest. I heard bursts of gunfire from that forest above my

11 house and the shooting spread left and right above my house.

12 Q. What did you do after that?

13 A. My home is attached to my next-door neighbour's house, Savo

14 Obrenovic's, through the garage. He was home as well. We met in order to

15 see what we would do. We decided to leave our houses and to go to his

16 father-in-law's, who lives about two kilometres up the Cehotina River in

17 the village of Orahovo. Ciganlija is the name of the hamlet where he

18 lives.

19 Q. You mentioned a house, the house of Mr. Obrenovic. Did he have

20 any tenants at that time in the house?

21 A. Vujadin [as interpreted] Matovic lived in his house at that time

22 with his family. He had a wife and two daughters. But he was not at home

23 then. His wife was at work and the children, I think, were somewhere at

24 work.

25 THE INTERPRETER: "Somewhere in the country." Interpreter's

1 correction.

2 A. He also worked at the KP Dom.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Thank you, sir. On page 52, line 12, instead of "Miladin," Your

5 Honours, it says "Vujadin," and I see that there's no sign to have it

6 checked later and that's why I'm intervening now.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Check it later. Thank you.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. You said that you decided to go to Mr. Obrenovic's relatives.

10 A. No, not relatives. That is the father of Obrenovic's wife.

11 Q. Yes. Thank you. Did you come across any other barricades,

12 roadblocks along the way?

13 A. Savo and his wife told us that there are roadblocks on that road,

14 because when they were coming home from town, they saw that there were

15 roadblocks in a place called Aladza, perhaps about a kilometre or 800

16 metres away from my house, upstream with regard to the Cehotina River.

17 Q. Did you do something in order to pass this roadblock at Aladza

18 that you were cautioned about?

19 A. It is precisely at that place where my daughter had a kiosk for

20 selling newspapers, and I knew all the neighbours there. I phoned one of

21 them who worked with me, and I asked him whether we could pass. He said

22 to me, "If you have any weapons, don't carry them. Put your mother, wife,

23 and daughter into the car, stop in front of my house, and I'll try to make

24 sure that they let you pass," that others let me pass, not him personally,

25 that is.

1 Q. Is that what you did?

2 A. That's what I did. My wife, my daughter, and my mother got some

3 things together in haste. We got into the car and we set out towards

4 Aladza. At the same time, this neighbour of mine, Savo and his wife, set

5 out in the same direction, but they were going on foot.

6 Q. Tell me, please, did you take something else in addition to

7 underwear?

8 A. I didn't take anything for me personally except for what I was

9 wearing, whereas my wife and daughter took something, some underwear. I

10 don't know about the grandmother, what she took. At any rate, they were

11 carrying whatever they were carrying in shopping bags.

12 Q. When you left the house, did you panic? Were you afraid?

13 A. I don't know whether I'll manage to explain it to you, but all

14 kinds of things occur to you when you find yourself in a situation that

15 you have to leave your home in great haste. You look at one thing after

16 another, not knowing what to take, and in the end, you just left

17 everything and went off. That is how I felt and that is what I did.

18 Q. You mentioned a man you called up on the telephone to help you get

19 through the checkpoint at Aladza, could you tell us his name?

20 A. I would like to appeal to the Court not to insist on me giving his

21 name, because he's someone who did me a great service, and I wouldn't like

22 him to have to suffer any kind of consequences because of my public

23 mention of his name.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, the simplest way might be to have him

25 write it on a piece of paper which will then be under seal. It will not

1 become public, but I think it is a matter which the Prosecution should be

2 made aware of.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Certainly. Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE HUNT: That will be Exhibit D157, and it will be under

5 seal.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. Sir, when you reached the checkpoint at Aladza, did you see anyone

8 there and how were those people dressed, if any?

9 A. When I reached Aladza and stopped in front of my friend's house,

10 and opposite that house was the kiosk where my daughter worked, from the

11 kiosk, across the way some kind of barriers had been positioned there,

12 tree trunks. And below the kiosk I saw some men with socks over their

13 heads, with rifles in their hands, and I didn't recognise them. I didn't

14 know who they were.

15 Q. Did they let you pass?

16 A. Everything worked as agreed. This man came out, he told those

17 people at the checkpoint to let us go: "I guarantee for him." And that's

18 how it was. They let me pass. No one touched me. They didn't even ask

19 me about the weapon that I had been warned about by him.

20 Q. Did you have a weapon on you then?

21 A. I did not have any weapons. I didn't have any weapons at all, so

22 I wasn't even afraid if anyone were to come to search my house. So I was

23 not under any such burden.

24 Q. After that, did you reach wherever you were going with your

25 family?

1 A. While I was waiting for this friend of mine to come out of his

2 house in the car to go to the checkpoint, my neighbour Savo and his wife

3 caught up with us, and they were going on foot.

4 Q. How long did you stay in this locality of Orahovo?

5 A. When I passed through this checkpoint held by these Muslim units,

6 units of Muslim ethnicity, a kilometre away I again came across some

7 police units, this time of Serb ethnicity. They asked me where we were

8 going. We said we were going to Orahovo to stay with such and such

9 people, and that's all. And they let us pass, and we reached the house.

10 Q. Yes. But my question was how long you stayed in that village,

11 until what date?

12 A. In that village of Orahovo, I think that same day when we arrived

13 in the afternoon, terrible shooting and fighting started, and I think that

14 was in fact the day when the fighting actually intensified in and around

15 the town. We stayed there roughly until the 17th or 18th of April.

16 Throughout the period of fighting in and around the town, we stayed with

17 these people in this house.

18 Q. During your stay with these people, did you get any news from the

19 town of Foca itself?

20 A. Yes, indeed. On the 13th or 14th of April, we were informed from

21 Cerezluk, a part of town from which our houses could be seen well, that

22 our houses were all on fire. In the Partizanski Put street and above the

23 street there were five or six houses, Serb houses, that had been set on

24 fire, among them, ours. And later other houses were lit, precisely the

25 house where Milorad lives, and somebody called Grujicic. That is when

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1 Milorad's house was burnt down as well. That is what they told us on the

2 phone because the telephone lines were still working.

3 Q. Could you tell us who told you this? Who called you to tell you

4 this from Cerezluk?

5 A. My wife's sister - not her real sister, her half sister - has a

6 house in Cerezluk, and she called up to tell us.

7 Q. Were they the first houses to be burnt in Foca?

8 A. I think they were, and this was later confirmed, that they were

9 the first houses to be set on fire in the town of Foca.

10 Q. Did you go to check out what was left of your burning house?

11 A. On the 17th or 18th - I can't tell you the exact dates - when the

12 fighting stopped, when we couldn't hear the shooting any more, with my

13 neighbour Savo we went to town and visited our houses and saw the

14 condition they were in. Smoke was still coming out of them. The houses

15 were totally burnt down. Only the walls were still standing. Nothing

16 else was left except the walls.

17 Q. Did you on that occasion see the other houses that were burned

18 down?

19 A. Yes. I saw all the houses, viewing things from the medical

20 centre, the health centre. The following houses were burned down:

21 Plevic, Drago; Milisav Kovacevic; Momir Kovac; Milorad Radevic, Djordje

22 Pavlic's; my own; and Sava Obrenovic's, which was the last in that road.

23 And also as this road is parallel with the Beogradska road, we saw that

24 Mica Krnojelac's house had been burnt down and the other house next to his

25 who had just -- that was starting to be built, and the house of Grujicic,

1 Velezar I think.

2 Q. The owners of these houses that you have just listed, what

3 ethnicity are they?

4 A. They are all Serbs. There was -- at that time, not a single

5 Muslim house was set on fire. In our street, at least.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, after this burning of houses,

7 you told us that the whole house was burnt down, what did you have left of

8 clothing?

9 A. Only what I took out on the 8th of April when I left the house. I

10 had a leather jacket, a pair of trousers, the things I had on me. Nothing

11 more than that.

12 Q. Before returning to Foca, did you take your children to

13 Montenegro?

14 A. So when I went back on the 17th or 18th of April and saw the

15 condition of the houses, I returned back to the village, and then I

16 decided to take my children and Savo's children, to drive them to

17 Montenegro to stay with a friend in the village called Bobovo, to leave

18 them there until we see what we could do as regarding where we would live,

19 and that's what I did.

20 Q. Upon returning to Foca, what did you do for accommodations since

21 your house had been burnt down?

22 A. When I returned from Montenegro, I took my mother to my brother's

23 place, who lives in Gornje Polje, also in Foca, and in that way I took

24 care of my mother. And then I went -- and this was the 23rd or 24th or

25 something of April. Then Savo and I went to the municipality to see what

1 we should do. And passing by the educational centre, that is where the

2 executive council was, and we dropped in and inquired about them, and we

3 were told that they had returned to the municipality buildings and that we

4 should go there.

5 Savo works in the post office. He dropped in at the post office,

6 and I went to the municipality building. And an office had already been

7 established for refugees and displaced persons. Somebody called Radovic

8 was working there, and I registered there. I said, "My house had been

9 burnt down," and where I should live. And he told me, "We can put you up

10 in the hotel now. There's also food provided for displaced persons and

11 refugees, and probably there are still some rooms available and you can

12 get one." And he advised me to go to the Zelengora Hotel.

13 When I left the municipality building, I went to the Zelengora

14 Hotel. I reported to the manager. I think his name was Zdravko. I told

15 him what had happened to me, and he did indeed give me a room to which I

16 should bring my wife, telling me that I could sleep there.

17 I then -- having solved that problem, I already heard there were

18 some cars with loudspeakers on them informing people that employees of the

19 KP Dom who were not engaged in military units, and younger pensioners were

20 obliged to report for work duty at the KP Dom. And I therefore went to

21 the village, brought back my wife to the hotel. I was given a key to the

22 room. I put her up there, and I went to the KP Dom to report for work

23 duty.

24 Q. You mentioned these calls over the loudspeakers, these

25 announcements. Were similar announcements made for employees of other

1 companies in town?

2 A. Probably, yes, but I remember what applied to me. And in the

3 municipality, they had also told me that I had to find accommodation or to

4 report for work duty or to the Defence Ministry, but I went immediately to

5 the KP Dom, as I heard the announcement calling on us to report there.

6 Q. Tell me -- let us leave the KP Dom aside for a moment. While you

7 were staying at the Zelengora Hotel, did you see there any other persons

8 whose houses had been burned down?

9 A. Yes. There were persons who had moved to Foca from some other

10 localities. And on that day I can't tell you exactly who I saw, but I

11 know that Miladin Matovic was there. Whether he came before or after me,

12 I don't know, but he also moved into the hotel. Then some other tenants

13 who were staying at Djordje Pavlic's place. There were, I'm sure, about

14 ten or so families staying there, some of whose houses had been burned and

15 others who had come from other places.

16 Q. At some point in time while you were staying at the hotel, did you

17 see Milorad Krnojelac's family there?

18 A. You're asking me for the very beginning. I saw Milord Krnojelac

19 when I came to the KP Dom to report there, and later on we met at the

20 hotel where he, too, had been given a room. I don't know exactly when he

21 moved into the hotel and when he was given a room, but we met first at the

22 KP Dom, and later on we would see one another at the hotel as we had lunch

23 together and supper together.

24 Q. Thank you, sir. You mentioned that you reported to the KP Dom.

25 To whom did you report to and where?

1 A. That is the question that I thought you were asking me about a

2 long time ago, at the beginning. I reached the KP Dom. In front of the

3 KP Dom I saw these soldiers in uniform. They were speaking the Ekavian

4 dialect. I didn't know any one of them, so I concluded that they were

5 from Serbia. They had some insignias. Later on I learnt that they were

6 call the White Eagles.

7 There were five or six of them in front of the KP Dom. I

8 addressed one of them and said that I was an employee of the KP Dom and

9 that I was reporting for work duty. He let me inside and he told me the

10 warden is the first office when you enter the KP Dom. You take the

11 corridor to the right and it's the first office to the left, where before

12 the war the censorship department was.

13 Q. What did you find in that office when you reached it?

14 A. I found Milorad inside, as well as Milan Vujovic, Micun Jokanovic,

15 Momo Krnojelac, and honestly, I can't remember who else. There were some

16 others, but they were all men over 50 years of age who were not engaged in

17 military units.

18 Q. Had these men been working in the KP Dom before the war, apart

19 from Milorad Krnojelac?

20 A. Yes. Except for Milorad Krnojelac, all of them had worked in the

21 KP Dom. The only newcomer was Milorad Krnojelac. We exchanged

22 greetings.

23 Q. Allow me to ask you: These men who were in the office when you

24 entered, before the war, which sector of the KP Dom did they work in?

25 A. Milan Vujovic was the head of the legal department. Micun

1 Jokanovic was head of the economic and commercial service. Momo Krnojelac

2 was head of the furniture factory.

3 Q. Did you know Milorad Krnojelac before this encounter?

4 A. Yes. I knew Milorad by sight and I knew him as a neighbour. We

5 were not related in any way, nor were we household friends in that sense.

6 Q. You said that you entered the room called "censorship," where you

7 found these people. What happened then?

8 A. I told them why I had come. I told them - some of them knew, some

9 didn't know - what had happened to my house. Milorad, I remember well,

10 said, "My house has burnt down too, but let's hope to God that no others

11 get burned down." And I somehow remember this well, as part of the first

12 encounter with Milorad. And we agreed that the next day I should report

13 and we would see what I was to do.

14 He also told me that by decision of the executive council, which

15 was based in the educational centre, that he had been appointed temporary

16 warden of the KP Dom and the Economic Unit Drina because the hitherto

17 warden and his deputy were not in Foca at the time, were absent.

18 Q. Did he tell you what assignments he was given as temporary

19 warden?

20 A. Certainly. He said that that is why we would get together

21 tomorrow. You see what the premises are, what the production units are.

22 So we -- what condition they're in, we will do the absolutely essential

23 repairs and try to get the production units started again for production,

24 to try to preserve the original herds on the farm.

25 Q. Could you tell us what the KP Dom looked like when you entered?

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1 What did you notice?

2 A. As I was approaching the KP Dom, I saw that all the glass panes

3 had been shattered. There were hundreds of bullet holes on the facade of

4 the building. I saw that as I was approaching the building. That day I

5 entered the office, it was somehow protected. It hadn't been seriously

6 damaged, but the corridor and the other premises, as I saw the following

7 day, were very badly damaged.

8 Q. Were you in a position to see all the damage inflicted on the

9 KP Dom?

10 A. The next day when I came to work, I first went to my own office,

11 and I found that the door had been broken in two, that the windowpanes had

12 been broken, that the tables had been turned upside down, the cupboards

13 opened, the books and papers thrown out onto the floor. It was total

14 chaos.

15 So I first started to put in order my own table. I had left my

16 glasses there. Fortunately, I found them. Then I started to put in order

17 the other tables, as I was alone. Women used to work with me, but they

18 were not under work obligation. So I returned the documents into the

19 cupboards and put them in order according to numbers, the way one deals

20 with financial documents. And then Milorad got us a roll of plastic, and

21 we put that plastic sheeting on the windows to replace the windowpanes for

22 the time being, so we'd put this nylon on the windows.

23 So I spent at least two or three days putting the office into some

24 sort of order.

25 Q. Did the other employees who were working in the administration put

1 their own offices in order as well?

2 A. Among the other employees, there was just Milan Vujovic who did as

3 I did; then there was Micun Jokanovic who also did the same; Cedo

4 Krnojelac did the same; and the others were mostly women who still did not

5 start working. Then in the production units there were the chief -- the

6 heads of the production units, the overseers, they did the same, in the

7 factory, in the boiler rooms, et cetera, in all the units.

8 Q. Was some sort of a commission set up later on?

9 A. Later, about the beginning of May, beginning of May, Milorad

10 Krnojelac formed a commission which was to make an estimate of the damage,

11 but not in financial terms but descriptively, to give a description of the

12 damage done because there was no other way. A member of that commission

13 was Milan Vujovic as a lawyer, then there was me, then there was Cedo

14 Krnojelac, and the heads of the work units would join us if we were making

15 estimates of damage done or, rather, making a description of the damage

16 done in the relevant work units.

17 Q. Did you have a member of the commission who was responsible for

18 civil engineering?

19 A. Among professionals we had one engineer, a civil engineer, and he

20 assisted us a great deal in estimating the damage to building structures.

21 His name was Miso Adzic. He worked with us. He was head of the work unit

22 for construction work.

23 Q. Thank you, sir.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it is 1.00, and

25 probably the time to make a break.

1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. We'll adjourn now until 2.30. Thank you.

2 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Just before you resume, Mr. Vasic, the mention this

3 morning about the future reminded me to draw your attention to the

4 practice direction on the lengths of briefs, which provides that final

5 trial briefs will not exceed 200 pages or 60.000 words, whichever is

6 greater.

7 That seems to me to be unduly generous, frankly, but hopefully you

8 are busily at work, both parties, on your final trial briefs, so that

9 particularly during this time off while we're waiting for the accused to

10 give evidence, you will be busy, very busy at work preparing them, because

11 you're not going to get very long at the end of the case to do so.

12 Yes, now, Mr. Vasic, you continue.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. Sir, you mentioned that you saw some military formations from

17 Serbia at the KP Dom and later on you heard that they were called Beli

18 Orlovi, the White Eagles. Do you know how long these formations stayed at

19 the KP Dom?

20 A. When I came to the KP Dom, I asked who these people were, what

21 they were doing there. Then I found out that there were some imprisoned

22 Muslims there detained at the KP Dom. To the best of my recollection,

23 they stayed there until around the 10th of May, I think, approximately.

24 Please don't take my word in terms of any exact dates, but they were there

25 at least until then.

1 Q. You mentioned detained Muslims. Do you know who brought them to

2 there?

3 A. I was told that the soldiers who were there brought the detained

4 Muslims there and that they were guarding them, and that they took part of

5 the dormitories where convicted persons had been put up before and that

6 they were staying there.

7 Q. Sir, let's go back to something you mentioned; namely, a

8 commission that was supposed to establish what the damage inflicted on the

9 KP Dom was. Can you tell us how much time this commission needed in order

10 to ascertain the exact extent of damage?

11 A. A lot more time would be needed to fully see the extent of the

12 damage. We went from room to room and tried to assess the value, because

13 there were lots of buildings there, the administration building, the

14 dormitories, the kitchen, the restaurant, the production facilities. So

15 we went through all these production units, and we recorded what we saw in

16 terms of the damage inflicted on these facilities.

17 The only thing that we did not write down was the damage inflicted

18 upon those parts of the dormitories where the detained Muslim persons

19 were. Once the warden said, "Don't do that then and there. They'll do

20 that -- you can do that when they leave."

21 Above the restaurant there were rooms where this paramilitary

22 unit, or whatever you call them, were staying. They were sleeping in the

23 rooms above the restaurant, and they had their people on duty down there

24 in the KP Dom as well, so we did not register anything from those

25 facilities.

1 Q. After all of this, did you draft a report in writing?

2 A. Yes, indeed we drafted a report in writing. It must have been

3 about ten pages, and we described everything, what we found and in what

4 condition, and we handed this over to the warden.

5 Q. Sir, I would just like to ask you something. I would just like to

6 ask you to slow down a bit. When answering, these questions and answers

7 were rather short and the interpreters have been managing so far, but if

8 you go into lengthy answers I'm afraid they won't be able to catch up, and

9 we want them all in the transcript.

10 You said that a longer period of time was needed in order to

11 ascertain the extent of damage incurred. Could you tell us how much time

12 would be needed to repair everything that had been damaged?

13 A. Only that which was the most necessary, the part that needed

14 repairing the most, and that is the roofs, repairing roofs, putting glass

15 panes on again, cleaning up, cleaning up all the rubble, I don't know what

16 all. All of that would have required at least a month.

17 As for a full repair and reconstruction, that has not been

18 completed until the present day -- or rather, it was not completed until

19 when I retired, 1999.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could the witness please

21 speak into the microphone.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Do you know what had not been repaired until you retired?

24 A. I know, for example, that the boiler room facility that provides

25 steam to the furniture factory and also for the convicts' kitchen, that is

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1 where the big boilers are, that has not been repaired till the present day

2 because this requires large-scale investment in order to repair the

3 boilers and also the pipelines, the measuring instruments, and everything

4 else in that particular facility. Also, the fisheries, that particular

5 work unit which is in Jelec, has not been repaired until the present day.

6 It doesn't work either.

7 Q. When you mentioned the fisheries in Jelec, do you know whether the

8 fish from there was transported somewhere after the fishpond in Jelec was

9 so badly damaged?

10 A. As for the fisheries, I know that before the war that in there,

11 there was about 50 tonnes of fish and also young trout. The fish for

12 consumption was released into the Bistrica river, and we tried to transfer

13 the young fish to the hydroelectric power plant at Buk Bijela; however, we

14 did not succeed.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, when you were establishing the

16 extent of the damage with the commission, did you go into some warehouses

17 where clothing was previously kept at the KP Dom?

18 A. Yes. We went into all the rooms, including the warehouse where

19 the equipment for the guards was kept. I'm referring to footwear and

20 clothing, that is. That is precisely where I found two shirts and a pair

21 of trousers that I later wore.

22 Q. Were these parts of guards' uniforms before the war?

23 A. Yes, trousers for guards before the war and blue shirts for guards

24 before the war.

25 Q. Why did you take this shirt and these trousers?

1 A. I asked the commission. They saw that I wasn't changing at all

2 for a few days, and they said, "Take it home, wash it, and wear it," and

3 that's what I did.

4 Q. Sir, you talked about the repair of damages.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

6 would like to show the witness ID D80, please.

7 Q. Sir, before you see this document which is called "Procurement of

8 Metal Sheet for the KP Dom," tell me whether you've seen it before.

9 A. I don't know if I saw it before, but all of this that I've been

10 reading here looks familiar; that is to say, what kind of metal it is and

11 what it was needed for. When we had a look at the roof of the furniture

12 factory that was covered with this metal sheet, it had been riddled by

13 bullets, and we could not have repaired that in any other way but by using

14 the same kind of metal sheet. It would have been easier if we could use

15 regular roof tiles, but in this way we have to ask for entire metal sheets

16 in order to repair the roof.

17 Q. Please take a look at the signature on this document. Do you know

18 whose signature this is?

19 A. "Milorad Krnojelac, Acting Warden." We got this metal sheet from

20 Maglic, the proposal of, or it is better to put it this way, on the orders

21 of the executive council, and then we returned it about a year later.

22 Actually, two years later, I think.

23 Q. Thank you, sir.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We won't be needing this

25 document any longer.

1 Q. During your stay at the KP Dom, can you tell me where you took

2 your meals?

3 A. I can. In the KP Dom, there is a kitchen for convicts, with two

4 dining-rooms. However, the kitchen was not working because the boiler

5 room was not working. Therefore, food was prepared in a big cauldron that

6 was used for soldiers and firewood was used to light the cauldron. At

7 first we all got our food from that cauldron.

8 Q. When you say "we all," who are you referring to?

9 A. I am referring to the detained Muslims and to the detained

10 soldiers, Serbs, and to the convicts who had been there from before the

11 war, and the employees who worked at the KP Dom. However, the employees

12 took only one meal there during their working hours and the rest had three

13 meals.

14 Q. You said that you took one meal. Where did you take your other

15 meals at that time?

16 A. I said that together with my family, I had been put up at the

17 Zelengora Hotel. Over there, there was also a cauldron for displaced

18 persons and refugees. So I would get two meals, usually lunch and dinner

19 over there at this hotel, from that cauldron.

20 Q. Can you compare the quality of the food that you ate at the KP Dom

21 and the quality of the food that you ate at the Zelengora Hotel, the food

22 that was prepared for refugees there?

23 A. In my opinion, and as far as I can remember, in both places the

24 food prepared was one that could be cooked in one big pot; that is to say,

25 one single dish. And in addition to that, you would get two slices of

1 bread. And over there, there was practically no difference.

2 Q. You mentioned bread. Can you tell me what the situation was like

3 in terms of bread in town in 1992?

4 A. In Foca there is only one bakery. It is state owned. Electricity

5 and crude oil are used for baking this bread. When there is no

6 electricity or oil, then there wasn't any bread either; that is to say,

7 neither for the citizens nor for us nor for the military or the hospital,

8 or anyone for that matter.

9 Q. At that time, was the situation such that there wasn't a regular

10 supply of electricity?

11 A. There were frequent blackouts, and also the power was not

12 sufficiently strong.

13 Q. What about crude oil?

14 A. Crude oil was also in short supply. I mean, until the

15 transmission line started to function again.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last word after

17 transmission line. Could the witness please speak into the microphone.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Did you hear that problem the interpreters are

19 having?

20 Sir, would you please move your chair closer to the microphones.

21 The interpreters are having grave difficulties in hearing you, so speak up

22 and speak closely into the microphones.

23 A. [English] okay.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to repeat the

25 question because perhaps the interpreters cannot hear what I'm saying,

1 either -- or rather, they did not interpret exactly what the witness had

2 said.

3 Q. Until when --

4 JUDGE HUNT: That is very understandable, Mr. Vasic. He really is

5 almost sending us to sleep, he's moving so slowly now. I hesitate to ask

6 him to speed up after the trouble we had earlier, but there must be a

7 middle course somewhere.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I shall try, Your Honour.

9 Q. Sir, just follow the cursor and don't start answering before it

10 stops, but once you start speaking, just speak at a normal pace.

11 So my question was the following: When did the situation with

12 electricity improve? What was your answer?

13 A. My answer was when the transmission line from Pljevlje to Foca was

14 repaired, and that happened in 1992. I don't know exactly when.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, what about shops? How much food

16 was there in shops in Foca at that time?

17 A. Almost, almost none.

18 Q. Did the system of payments function?

19 A. The system of payments functioned only within the municipality of

20 Foca at first.

21 Q. Did people receive their salaries at that time?

22 A. Salaries? Salaries could be received only if somebody had money,

23 but there were always restrictions. The executive council always passed

24 decisions as to what the maximum for each work organisation and

25 institution would be in terms of their salaries.

1 Q. You told us that the system of payments functioned only within the

2 municipality of Foca?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Does that mean that with other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

5 Yugoslavia at that time, there was no system of payments?

6 A. Yes, that's right. The TK system that we were part of earlier on

7 had broken down completely. The system of payments could function within

8 one bank.

9 Q. In such a situation, was any money coming in to Foca at all?

10 A. I think it was only the quantity of money that happened to be in

11 the bank in Foca that was in circulation then. There wasn't any money

12 coming in until the national bank of the Republika Srpska was established.

13 Q. Do you know whether in 1992 there was any inflation, and was there

14 any denomination of money?

15 A. At first there was inflation, but it wasn't that drastic; however,

16 when the war broke out, then inflation started soaring. In July, the

17 first denomination of the dinar was carried out: 100 dinars was turned

18 into 10 dinars. Inflation continued to soar. I think in September and

19 October yet another denomination of the dinar was carried out, and in 1993

20 a terrible inflation happened, inexplicable. I'll just tell you the

21 following: On the 1st of January, 1993, one dinar was devalued by 16

22 digits by the end of the war. So if you wanted to reevaluate a certain

23 figure, you would have to multiply with a 16-digit figure.

24 That was galloping inflation, or perhaps I could paint an even

25 better picture for you if I were to tell you that sometime in September,

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1 my salary came in and the same day I bought five loaves of bread. The

2 next day I could have bought only one loaf of bread, and the day after

3 that, I could have thrown all that money away. That was the value of

4 money at the time. That's the kind of monetary system we had.

5 Q. In this kind of situation that you were in while you worked at the

6 bookkeeping service of the Drina Economic Unit, how did you manage to sell

7 goods and obtain raw materials and other goods?

8 A. Are you asking me how we traded with the outside world?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. It was only barter, goods for goods, because if you were to give

11 somebody goods today and if he'd pay you the next day or the day after

12 that, due to inflation, it would not have been a fair trade, and accounts

13 were being substituted for by compensation.

14 Q. Thank you, sir. You told us that you stayed at the Zelengora

15 Hotel with other refugees when your house was burnt down. After a certain

16 period of time, did you change your place of residence or did you stay in

17 the hotel?

18 A. I stayed in the hotel until roughly the month of August 1992. The

19 hotel was fully booked, and I addressed myself to the executive council,

20 asking them to provide some kind of accommodation, either by repairing my

21 house or giving me an apartment to live in.

22 Q. What was the response to your request?

23 A. At first I was given the usual answer, "We'll see." The second

24 time when I went to inquire, they said, "Well, we'll try to get you some

25 material to repair the house." And then the third time they asked me

1 would I agree if I were to be given an abandoned apartment, an apartment

2 that used to be inhabited by a Muslim who had moved out.

3 Q. Did you move into an apartment eventually?

4 A. Since the material they were offering was insufficient, and I also

5 didn't have the manpower to carry out the repairs, I agreed, and I was

6 given an apartment in Svetosavska Street that belonged to the KP Dom and

7 whose tenancy rights were held by Suljo Osmanovic before the war, who had

8 been given that apartment, and I was given it to use temporarily.

9 Q. Could you explain to us what it meant to have tenancy rights? You

10 said that the apartment was in the ownership of the KP Dom.

11 A. The KP Dom built the apartment out of its own funds and gave it to

12 Suljo Osmanvic for use, so that Suljo Osmanvic became tenancy right

13 holder, but he was not the owner of the apartment. The owner remained in

14 the property of the KP Dom, which was the institution that purchased it or

15 built it or provided funds for it.

16 Q. Do you know, according to the laws in effect at the time, was a

17 holder of tenancy rights who abandons an apartment, would he lose those

18 rights?

19 A. Probably, yes. That is what they told me in the municipality, and

20 I accepted it. They probably acted in conformity with the existing laws

21 at the time.

22 Q. You mentioned that the municipality failed to provide sufficient

23 building material to repair your house. Did they inform you about that?

24 A. Yes. They informed me on my second or third visit when I inquired

25 whether there was any response to my request. Then they told me, "We had

1 some material," but quantity they were offering would not even be

2 sufficient to provide a cover for the house. They were just tiles and

3 some lumber.

4 Q. Did any other person whose houses had been burned down make

5 similar requests to the municipality?

6 A. Actually I agreed that a part of this material, the roof tiles and

7 the building material that was intended for me, should be given to Mico

8 Krnojelac and that I should get the adequate quantities that I needed to

9 cover or to provide a roof for my house the following year, because Mico

10 had also submitted a similar request for dealing with his accommodation

11 problem.

12 Q. Why did you decide to cede this material to Mico Krnojelac?

13 A. Because the quantity offered me was insufficient. It wasn't

14 enough to cover the house. And as Mico had a larger family and he was

15 more in need - his house was smaller in terms of the size of the roof - so

16 I thought that the quantity would suffice for him.

17 Q. You mentioned manpower. Did they tell you in the municipality

18 anything about the labour, who would provide the labour?

19 A. Their most frequent responses were, "We'll see. We'll see." And

20 when I decided to accept the apartment offered me, I didn't make any

21 further inquiries about manpower or material until the conditions had

22 improved.

23 Q. Could you please tell me about your bookkeeping department. You

24 headed it. Who headed the sector to which your department belonged?

25 A. My immediate superior was the head of the economic and commercial

1 service, that is, Micun Jokanovic, and his superior was the manager or

2 director.

3 Q. Who in those days was the acting director?

4 A. At that time it was Milorad Krnojelac. There was no other.

5 Q. Could you tell us whether meetings were held in the mornings when

6 the plans for each unit were discussed?

7 A. Well, every morning, whoever came to work, we would go into our

8 small cafe that we had in our administration building. We would have

9 coffee together, either in the cafe or in the warden's office, and at the

10 same time we would agree on what needed to be done that day or the next

11 few days, what each of us had to do.

12 Q. Were any notes taken on those occasions?

13 A. I personally took notes. I always kept my diary on me, and I

14 always noted down what I was supposed to do, what other people were

15 supposed to do together with me, and things like that.

16 Q. As you would see Milorad Krnojelac there, could you tell us how he

17 was dressed while he was in the KP Dom?

18 A. When I came to the KP Dom, I found Milorad Krnojelac wearing

19 civilian clothes. Later on, he wore civilian clothes, but at times he

20 would wear parts of a military uniform. It wasn't a complete military

21 uniform with boots, pants, jacket, and cap, but, for instance, there would

22 be a military shirt and civilian trousers and combinations like that.

23 But when I say military, I don't mean camouflage uniforms, I mean

24 the uniforms worn by the Territorial Defence unit; that is, the

25 olive-green uniforms.

1 Q. Did you see him carrying a weapon?

2 A. No, I never saw him carrying a weapon. I'm sure he never carried

3 a weapon in the KP Dom.

4 Q. Tell me, how were you dressed while you were in the KP Dom?

5 A. I wore what I had, my civilian clothes, and then the two shirts

6 and trousers from the police uniform that I mentioned, and then my brother

7 gave me a shirt or two, and I combined these things until I was called up

8 to join the army. Then I was also given two uniforms, and sometimes I

9 would wear one or the other or a combination of both.

10 That is how half the population was dressed in those days. I

11 don't know whether this is acceptable, but that is truly how things were

12 in those days. It may be difficult to believe.

13 Q. You told us that you were drafted to a military unit. When was

14 this?

15 A. At the end of July. The duty office told me that I had to report

16 to the secondary-school centre. I went there, and I was told I would no

17 longer be under work obligation, I had to be issued a uniform and rifle,

18 and come back for an assignment, and that is how it was.

19 So I was on guard duty in the secondary-school center from then

20 for the whole following year. I'd be issued a rifle, go on guard duty

21 over there, then hand in your rifle back, then again I would be called up,

22 then again I would hand it back. And this went on back and forth, I don't

23 know how many times, between active duty and work duty.

24 Q. When you were under work obligation, were you a soldier or a

25 civilian?

1 A. When I was under work obligation, I was a civilian, but when I was

2 drafted I would become a soldier and I had to wear a uniform.

3 Q. Were you mobilised when there were certain disturbances or on the

4 front or for some other reason?

5 A. Most frequently when something happened at the front or when a

6 unit needed to be relieved, then they would collect us as reservists from

7 our work duties and send us over there.

8 Q. When you were mobilised, were you mobilised in an officer rank?

9 A. I was a regular soldier, a private. I didn't have any rank. The

10 fact that I used to be an officer in reserve no longer counted. I was

11 just an ordinary soldier because I had overstepped the age limit already.

12 Q. Sir, you told us that you attended these meetings where plans were

13 discussed for the various economic units. Could you tell us whether you

14 know if Milorad Krnojelac was absent from the KP Dom at some point in time

15 or not?

16 A. Milorad Krnojelac, very frequently, and especially after these

17 essential repairs had been done in the KP Dom and once production was

18 started, he would travel very often. I travelled, too. So did Micun

19 Jokanovic. All of us who were engaged in the sale of goods, we all went

20 on business trips, exclusively to Montenegro or Serbia.

21 Q. When Milorad Krnojelac was absent, who took his place in the KP

22 Dom?

23 A. According to our rules, the Dom warden, the director of the

24 economic unit, would be substituted by the person authorised by him to do

25 so. In practice, this means that if the warden or director were absent,

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1 then the head of the legal service would replace him in the legal area; in

2 the area of the economic and commercial affairs, the head of that

3 department; and in the area of production, the heads of those relevant

4 production units would replace him.

5 Q. So in 1992, who replaced him in the area of legal matters?

6 A. Milan Vujovic until he left, and that was sometime in July 1992.

7 As for economic and commercial affairs, he was replaced by Micun

8 Jokanovic.

9 Q. And after Mr. Vujovic left?

10 A. Then there was only Micun Jokanovic who could stand in for him.

11 Or if he was absent too, in some areas I would stand in for him,

12 especially if we were dealing with any financial transactions or the like.

13 Q. Could you tell us who signed the documents on behalf of the

14 economic department?

15 A. I think I told you. It was the warden if he was present. If he

16 was absent, then the person standing in for him. And as I have said, for

17 legal matters it would be Milan Vujovic; for accounts and bills, then

18 Micun Jokanovic.

19 Q. Thank you. Are you aware as to whether before the war broke out,

20 did the KP Dom receive any funds for the rearing of livestock which was to

21 be delivered to the reserves, for wartime reserves?

22 A. We did receive certain funds through those reserves, out of the

23 budget of the Yugoslav People's Army, for keeping certain stocks of meat

24 and fish in reserve and to keep renewing those reserves. And as far as I

25 can remember, our obligation was to always have in reserves 30 tonnes of

1 pork and 30 tonnes of edible fish.

2 Q. After the conflict broke out, were you able to maintain those

3 reserves?

4 A. As far as the fish are concerned, the fish were released into the

5 Bistrica River before they were able to reach the fishpond. So there were

6 no reserves left. As for pork, we had some stocks at a reduced level, but

7 we retained a pork farm throughout, with a reduced capacity though.

8 Q. Did some members of the Hercegovina Corps come to demand from the

9 economic unit certain deliveries out of those reserves?

10 A. Yes. I know that for certain. I showed them the contracts we had

11 and showed them the minutes stating what had happened to the fish. And I

12 showed them how much we had already given to the army, not just in the

13 form of meat but also in eggs and other foodstuffs, because as far as I

14 can remember, they came sometime in 1993 with such requests for food.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, I remind you, please wait until you see the

16 typing finish before you answer the question. You came in well over the

17 interpreter on that particular occasion. We do want to hear what you want

18 to say, but if you keep doing this, I'm afraid we will lose your answers.

19 Please just pause before you start your answer.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Sir, could you tell us, before the conflict broke out, how was the

23 KP Dom financed?

24 A. Before the war started, the KP Dom was financed by the state, in

25 those days, the Yugoslav Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they would

1 provide funds for the upkeep of convicted persons for material

2 expenditures and for the salaries of the employees providing security and

3 who kept records of the convicted persons.

4 That was one source of funding. Another source of funding was the

5 actual business done by the Drina Economic Unit. So the Drina Economic

6 Unit functioned independently, and it had separate books. It kept its own

7 books where it established the finances of the institution, paid taxes and

8 contributions, as did all other work organisations at the time or

9 companies.

10 Q. Tell us, how did the Drina Economic Unit stand in terms of

11 budgetary resources that you mentioned as a second source of funding

12 during wartime?

13 A. As regards budgetary resources, from the budget of the republic,

14 we received funds only for the month of -- months of January and February

15 1992. For March, we did not receive anything. That is why the war broke

16 out in April.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the help of the usher, I should

18 like to show the witness a -- Exhibit ID D84, please.

19 Q. Will you please look at this document, sir, and tell us whether it

20 looks familiar?

21 A. I see that it is an accompanying letter attached to the revised

22 financial plan for the period from the 1st of January to the 15th of

23 September, 1992, and it contains data regarding the funds received out of

24 the budget for the first two months and how much after those two months

25 until the 15th of September.

1 Q. This sum indicated here in the revised plan, amounting to

2 51,950,200, is what you should have been given had there been no conflict

3 but were not given?

4 A. Yes, had it not been for the war and had inflation remained at the

5 same level as it was.

6 Q. Will you please look at the signature on this document? Do you

7 know who signed the document?

8 A. Milorad Krnojelac.

9 Q. Could you tell us whether the funds that you received in the

10 course of 1992 constituted 10 per cent of the total amount that you should

11 have received?

12 A. Could you repeat that question? I was reading the document.

13 Q. You said that you received something in January and in February

14 and something until September. My question is: Is the amount that you

15 received 10 per cent in relation to the 57 million that you should have

16 received?

17 A. Yes, 5 million is 10 per cent.

18 Q. Thank you, sir.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] We will no longer need this document.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, that was referred to, I notice, by its

21 identification number. Is it in evidence?

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, ID D84.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then let's refer to it, if we may, as

24 Exhibit D84 so I don't have to keep on asking this question.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.

1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: According to our list it is not yet admitted

3 into evidence, but -- also the document that we talked about just

4 20 minutes ago, it's both not tendered yet.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

6 Mr. Vasic, you better have that sorted out at some stage. This

7 may not have got it into evidence. I'm not going to make any ruling one

8 way or the other, but as long as we know the status of it, let's keep that

9 well in mind.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. The Defence

11 has tendered these documents as exhibits, and since they were signed by

12 Milorad Krnojelac, we thought when he testifies, we should actually tender

13 them into evidence through his testimony.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's -- I remember that, but when you start

15 asking another witness about a document which is not in evidence, there

16 could be problems. That's why I raised it.

17 Nevertheless, you are going to tender it, so I should imagine that

18 there should be no unfortunate consequences, provided we all keep it in

19 mind that it is yet to be tendered.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Sir, you said to us that with the commission, you worked on the

22 assessment of damages. Do you know whether some of the vehicles from the

23 rolling stock of the KP Dom disappeared after combat operations ended in

24 the town itself?

25 A. Of course I know about that. The Mercedes was missing, two Ladas,

1 the fire-fighting vehicle, the Land Rover, perhaps some others. I can't

2 remember right now.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

4 would like the witness to be shown ID D81, please, and 82, in order to

5 shorten the proceedings so I don't make the usher go here and there twice,

6 and the documents have to do with the same matter.

7 Q. Sir, would you please look at document ID D81. You mentioned that

8 certain vehicles went missing. Do you know whether a request had been

9 sent to the police station -- or rather, whether a report was sent stating

10 that they were missing?

11 A. Yes, I know about that. The commission when we worked, we would

12 inform the warden on the day after we worked, invariably, and I think this

13 is a result of our work. We informed the warden that certain vehicles

14 were missing, and he promptly informed the authorities in charge.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. Now ID D82, do you know about this request for

16 the allocation of a passenger vehicle?

17 A. This request practically is a sequel to the previous one. First

18 we are reporting to the police station that vehicles are missing, and then

19 we asked that same police station to lend a vehicle to us temporarily so

20 that we could carry out the work, the assignments, that we were supposed

21 to carry out. Both documents were signed by the warden.

22 Q. You're talking about ID D82, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Tell me, please --

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, this document will no longer be

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1 needed. Thank you, Mr. Usher.

2 Q. Tell us, please, did the KP Dom get any vehicle on the basis of

3 this request?

4 A. I think that a vehicle was lent to the warden, a red Yugo. It was

5 not given to him, but it was lent temporarily, because I know that we used

6 it precisely in 1992 and 1993.

7 Q. Do you know when Milorad Krnojelac was no longer warden and

8 director of the Drina Economic Unit?

9 A. Are you asking me whether I know when he was discharged from these

10 duties?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. I think it was August or the end of July 1993 that Milorad

13 Krnojelac was discharged from these duties of warden and director, and

14 that other people came. And separately, that is. There was a warden of

15 the KP Dom, then there was also a director of the Drina Economic Unit, and

16 then a deputy director of the Drina Economic Unit, and until then it was

17 Milorad Krnojelac who was doing all of that.

18 Q. Do you know after Milorad Krnojelac left what became of this

19 vehicle, the red vehicle of the Yugo make?

20 A. I said that this vehicle was not the property of the KP Dom. I

21 did not register it in the books of the KP Dom or of the Drina Economic

22 Unit. I heard that it had been lent. I really don't know. At that time

23 I went to the front line and I worked at the KP Dom.

24 When Milorad Krnojelac left, I don't know whether he returned that

25 vehicle to the police station or -- I don't know what became of it. I

1 really don't know.

2 Q. Did a new vehicle appear once the new warden appeared?

3 A. When the new warden came, he had a white Golf. I don't know

4 whether it was his own private Golf or somebody else's, borrowed from

5 someone else. It wasn't KP Dom property, that's for sure.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that it was not property of the KP Dom,

7 and you mentioned that you didn't know whether it was owned by him or

8 whether it was borrowed from someone. Borrowed from whom, for example?

9 A. Well, just like Milorad got this for temporary use from the police

10 station, maybe he also got that vehicle. I don't know about that. I

11 don't know whether it was his or whether he used it as a borrowed vehicle.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

14 would like to ask the witness to be shown ID D83, please.

15 Q. Sir, could you please read this letter and tell us whether you are

16 familiar with the letter?

17 A. I'm familiar with the subject matter involved, and I'm sure that

18 this is authentic in terms of what we had asked the warden to do, that is

19 to say, to ask the Ministry of Justice for this, because we had major

20 problems with oil, and we had to keep the farms going.

21 Q. Tell me, please, can you see at the end of this document a seal

22 and a signature? Is that the seal of the KP Dom, and is that the

23 signature of the warden?

24 A. I can read here Kazneno-Popravni, and then there's something

25 illegible. But the signature is the warden's for sure, but the stamp is

1 barely legible.

2 Q. Please, would you look underneath the letterhead where it says

3 Kazneno-Popravni Dom Foca, there is a number and the number has not been

4 entered. Can you explain this to me, why the number was not written?

5 A. This could be a third copy of this particular letter, because a

6 letter of this kind is written in three copies. One goes to the

7 addressee; the other copy remains in the files, and that's where it gets a

8 number for the files; and this third copy remains for the person who had

9 actually written it so that he could keep it for his own files. That's

10 the way I see it, because I don't see any other reason why it wouldn't

11 have a number.

12 Q. Can you tell me whether letters and decisions were recorded in the

13 same register in the same way at that time in the KP Dom?

14 A. It depended on the contents of the letter concerned. If that is

15 correspondence between the KP Dom and the Ministry, it is only natural

16 that it is registered in the book. If this is correspondence related, for

17 example, to some other matters like plain letters, then it wasn't

18 compulsory. And if these were decisions that involved financial

19 obligations, then it had to be registered in the so-called protocol of

20 financial obligations, and that is also where travel orders went, travel

21 authorisations, bills, et cetera.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] We won't be needing this document any

24 more. Could the usher please show the witness -- I'm talking about number

25 90 and 90-1.

1 Q. Sir, please take a look at this and tell us what is this

2 document?

3 A. Travel authorisation for an official trip, the warden of the

4 KP Dom to travel to Bijeljina to attend a meeting. Mode of travel used,

5 vehicle, GZ47755; and also the amount of money involved, 5.000 dinars.

6 May I proceed?

7 Q. Please go ahead.

8 A. There has to be another sheet of paper in here where it says "For

9 the Cashier," that is to say, when he takes this particular amount

10 allocated to him, that is to say that this part of it is inserted here, is

11 used by the employee going on an official trip to collect his advance and

12 leave that at the cashier's, whereas this remaining piece of paper is

13 taken by him and then when he returns, in this part all the travel

14 expenses involved during that journey are calculated.

15 I think that this is a perfectly correct travel authorisation. It

16 is registered as number 178/ -- probably 92, and it is number 10, number

17 313 as well.

18 Q. Let's just clarify something. The inside of this piece of paper

19 that you just folded now, is that actually this second sheet that you are

20 holding in your hand right now?

21 A. I haven't got that piece of paper that goes to the cashier. I

22 just have the first page, and then the second page in terms of the advance

23 I don't have, and then I have the third page where the calculation is made

24 of the travel expenses incurred. I can't see it here in this travel

25 authorisation.

1 Q. Did I understand you correctly? The travel authorisation

2 consisted of a folded sheet of paper consisting of two pages, so to speak,

3 which actually had four pages if you look at both sides, and then there

4 was an additional sheet of paper that was put between those two pages and

5 that was handed over to the cashier when this person mentioned was given

6 the advance that he was supposed to be paid prior to his journey?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] In order for things to be perfectly

9 clear, could the usher please give me that particular copy back, and I'm

10 going to give the witness a copy of ID D90, where on one single page, all

11 the pages involved were photocopied, so that everybody in the courtroom

12 understood what we were saying.

13 JUDGE HUNT: You may be assuming too much, Mr. Vasic, when you say

14 that. Why are we going into such excruciating detail about these

15 documents?

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wouldn't want to go

17 into all the details. However, my learned friends actually put questions

18 related to these travel authorisations, as to whether this was a folded

19 piece of paper and what was inside. Especially in view of the next

20 exhibit that I will be showing to the witness, and our learned friends had

21 questions in relation to that and certain objections as well.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if there is something you're about to reach, we

23 won't stop you, but it has been excruciating, I've got to say. You

24 proceed.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, and I thank you, Your

1 Honour.

2 Q. So, sir, what you have there in front of you, is that an original

3 travel authorisation the way you had put it?

4 A. You returned to me the same document you gave me a minute ago.

5 Q. You're right. It's the same document. However, if we were to

6 fold it in half right now, would that be the form for a travel

7 authorisation that was used in those days?

8 A. What is missing is the piece of paper that is inside, that is

9 submitted to the cashier in order to obtain money, and what you gave me

10 here, in addition, is just an invoice or, rather, a hotel bill.

11 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you look at the signature on page 1 of this

12 travel authorisation? Do you recognise the signature?

13 A. You mean this, what I have right now?

14 Q. Yes, ID D90.

15 A. On page 1, this is my signature. On page 3, again my signature,

16 Mico Krnojelac, and Mico Krnojelac, rather, Micun Jokanovic and Mico

17 Krnojelac, who received the money.

18 Q. Thank you, sir. Since you signed this travel authorisation, do

19 you know whether Mr. Milorad Krnojelac travelled to Bijeljina to attend

20 this meeting?

21 A. I know that Mr. Milorad Krnojelac travelled to Bijeljina, because

22 upon his return, I was returned to the Dom because I had some business to

23 finish precisely upon the orders that he had received at that meeting in

24 Bijeljina.

25 Q. Please look at the inside of this document, this travel

1 authorisation. Can you tell us how much time Mr. Milorad Krnojelac spent

2 on this trip?

3 A. He departed on the 15th of September at 10.00. He returned on the

4 17th of September at 1830 hours. He spent 48 hours travelling, that is to

5 say, two per diems plus 8.30, and according to our rules, he was entitled

6 to two and a half per diems, and a per diem was then 1.500 dinars, and

7 that is 3.750 dinars. Then there is a hotel bill there amounting to

8 2.950. So that is a total of 6.700. And the advance he received prior to

9 his journey is subtracted from that, and then 1.700 is the remaining

10 amount.

11 Q. Thank you, sir.

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] We won't be needing this particular

13 document any longer.

14 Q. Sir, you mention that had after Mr. Milorad Krnojelac came from

15 Bjelinja, you were assigned certain tasks. What were they?

16 A. As far as I'm concerned, I was given the task to find the report

17 that we made when we came to the Dom, that is to say, in terms of damage

18 estimates, that I should establish for the period between April and

19 September and October how much we actually traded, what amount of goods we

20 gave, and what we received in return, and also I was asked about some

21 other economic indicators concerning the activity of the Drina Economic

22 Unit.

23 Q. Why did Mr. Milorad Krnojelac need that survey of activity of the

24 Drina unit that you made?

25 A. He told me that all corps, Prosecutors' offices, all institutions

1 got orders from the minister that they should submit reports on their

2 activity and work in various KP Doms and their attached economic units,

3 because all the correction facilities, all the KP Doms, had their attached

4 economic units as well.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

6 would like to show ID D86 to the witness, please.

7 Q. Sir, please take a look and tell me whether you find this document

8 familiar?

9 A. I do. I drafted it. This is a copy. This is a table of sales

10 and procured goods in the Drina Economic Unit for the period from the 29th

11 of May until the 15th of October, 1992. I did this so that the warden of

12 the Dom could submit a report to the Ministry of Justice about his work in

13 that period.

14 Q. Would you please look at the last page. When was this document

15 compiled, and why was it not signed?

16 A. This is a copy of my report, the one I submitted to the warden.

17 However, in addition to the warden, all heads of working units and

18 services asked for a copy, and it was therefore retyped, and you happened

19 to get this kind of copy that was not signed at all.

20 Q. Can you tell us, please, on the basis of what did you compile this

21 review?

22 A. I did that on the basis of bookkeeping, on the basis of records

23 kept, invoices, according to the buyers mentioned here.

24 Q. Please look at item 4.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And the date by that item, that is, the 16th of June, and also

2 item 21, please, the 3rd of October. Can you tell us -- just a minute,

3 I'm sorry. I didn't mean item 21. I meant item 11, the 31st of August.

4 In this period, do you not have trade with Serbia and Montenegro displayed

5 here?

6 A. No, we don't.

7 Q. In this interim between the end of June and --

8 A. I have here the 16th of June, sending goods to Belgrade department

9 stores, and then there's the 16th of July, so there is a period that's

10 vacant. And then the 8th of August --

11 Q. Between the 16th of June and the 16th of July, did you take goods

12 to Yugoslavia or bring goods from Yugoslavia?

13 A. On the basis of what I can see from this survey, in that month

14 there weren't any purchases in or from or for Yugoslavia because I haven't

15 got any invoices to that effect.

16 Q. Do you know why in this period there weren't any sales and why

17 goods didn't go to and from Yugoslavia?

18 A. I do know. I do know why. In this period, our director was

19 absent, and none of us would decide at his own initiative to buy or sell

20 something because we were not authorised to do that.

21 Q. You say that your director was not there. Who are you referring

22 to?

23 A. When we're talking about this period, both the warden and the

24 director for me is Milorad Krnojelac. That is one and the same person

25 because we did not have a separate warden and a separate director.

1 Q. And where was Milorad Krnojelac then, in the second half of June

2 and the first half of July, 1992; do you know that?

3 A. I think that in that period his child had had an accident, that he

4 was in hospital in Belgrade. For sure I don't know the exact date, but I

5 think it must have been the end of June.

6 Q. Thank you, sir.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid it's 4.00.

8 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not afraid at all, Mr. Vasic. Do you think we're

9 going to go on for very much more with this examination-in-chief?

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think not more than 45

11 minutes.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Right. We'll resume again at 9.30 in the morning.

13 We are still in this courtroom tomorrow.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m., to

15 be reconvened on Tuesday the 12th day of June, 2001,

16 at 9.30 a.m.

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