1 Wednesday, 19 April 2000

2 [The accused entered court]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [Open session]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: The registrar, please call the

7 case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number

9 IT-96-23-T and IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus

10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Before we start, I

12 would like to find out from the accused whether they

13 can hear the proceedings in a language they

14 understand.

15 Mr. Kunarac?

16 THE ACCUSED KUNARAC: [Interpretation] Yes,

17 Your Honour, I can hear you and understand.

18 THE ACCUSED KOVAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

19 Honour, I can understand.

20 THE ACCUSED VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes,

21 Your Honour, I can understand.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Before the witness is sworn in,

23 the Bench has some instructions.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Not really instructions, but

25 just a statement.

1 Mr. Ryneveld, I've been looking, with some

2 interest, at the definition of "rape" in the Furundzija

3 case, and whilst it seems to be perfectly appropriate

4 to the facts of that case, I wonder whether it is

5 really one of really general application. I thought I

6 should warn you that it may be at least I will have a

7 slightly different view as to what is involved. I've

8 always understood rape to be the intercourse without

9 consent and that if acquiescence is obtained by force,

10 then there is no consent. And that's more or less the

11 way the Tribunal's Rule is drafted.

12 You or each of the prosecutors has usually

13 allowed the witness to say that she was raped --

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry. My headphones are not

15 working. I can hear you, of course, but --

16 JUDGE HUNT: Each of the witnesses has said

17 that she was raped, which implies, of course, absence

18 of consent, the very word. But it may be regarded as

19 not good Prosecution practice, where you have a witness

20 who can say something expressly, to leave it to

21 implication.

22 Now, if it be the fact, may I suggest that

23 you obtain from the witnesses that they did not

24 consent. It can be a general question right at the

25 very end of all the evidence, but I would not like

1 there to be a misunderstanding, if, in fact, the

2 wording of the definition is slightly altered later on,

3 to require an absence of consent, and as I say,

4 acquiescence obtained by force does not amount to

5 consent.

6 It's just a slight variation but, in my

7 respectful view, a much more logical definition of

8 "rape". So I say that only to give you fair warning

9 so that if it be the fact you obtain that particular

10 piece of evidence from your victim witnesses.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I

12 might say that, of course, my understanding of when the

13 words "rape" are being used by a witness, that it

14 necessarily implies lack of consent. Each --

15 JUDGE HUNT: I agree with that as a general

16 proposition of the English language, but I have always

17 regarded it as proper prosecution procedure not to

18 leave matters to implication. If you have a witness

19 who can say something expressly, they should say it.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: I might say that has been a

21 matter of discussion among the trial team. However,

22 the concern was the provisions of Rule 96, and --

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, but you bear an onus of

24 proving absence of consent. Rule 96 relates to what

25 the accused may want to do.

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I certainly have Your

2 Honour's point, and it certainly is not a difficult

3 matter for us to accomplish. It's just that we were

4 concerned about raising perhaps the question of the

5 ultimate issue by asking that kind of a question of the

6 witness in one way, given the whole circumstances under

7 which the evidence comes out. It seemed that it might

8 be a question that was perhaps redundant in the

9 circumstances.

10 However, Your Honour is quite right. Why ask

11 the Court to make an interpretative ruling where a simple

12 question might provide the answer.

13 JUDGE HUNT: That's right. I must emphasise,

14 I haven't come to any final conclusion, but it would be

15 very unfortunate, from the point of view of both sides

16 in the courtroom, if, in the end, the definition is

17 slightly changed and you haven't conducted the case in

18 accordance with that definition.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Well, again, without

20 definitive argument on the point, we thought we had

21 accomplished our objectives by the means of examination

22 thus far. However, I certainly appreciate Your

23 Honour's comments, and we will certainly take those

24 into consideration with respect to future witnesses.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall now proceed, please.

2 May the witness make the solemn declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

4 WITNESS: WITNESS AS

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone was not

7 switched on, I think.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: A microphone for the witness,

9 please.

10 Examined by Ms. Kuo:

11 Q. Good morning.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 MS. KUO: I just wanted to check the

14 microphone.

15 Q. Good morning. Good morning, Witness. Can

16 you hear me?

17 MS. KUO: I'm not getting any sort of

18 translation.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphone is

20 not on. It's not working.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: We've been told that the

22 witness's microphone is not working.

23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We obviously

24 have a problem with the interpretation. The

25 technicians are going to check with the interpreters

1 whether they can hear the witness.

2 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we can't.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: The registrar.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Yes, it's working

5 now. Thank you. Yes.

6 [Technical difficulty]

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's try and see whether we

9 can all hear each other. I can hear the English

10 interpretation.

11 MS. KUO:

12 Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me and

13 the interpretation?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. KUO: Now, with the assistance of the

16 usher, I'd like to have the witness shown Exhibit 197.

17 Q. Witness, do you see your name on Exhibit 197?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And next to it, do you see the initials AS?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Under your name do you also see your birth

22 date?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Under that do you see your mother's name?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. And what is the number next to your mother's

2 name?

3 A. 152.

4 Q. Under your mother's name, do you also see

5 your father's name?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the Prosecution

8 enters Exhibit 197 into evidence. Thank you.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit

11 197, which is admitted under seal.

12 MS. KUO:

13 Q. Witness, how old are you?

14 A. 27.

15 Q. In 1992, in April, how old were you? Let's

16 say in July.

17 A. 19.

18 Q. Where were you born?

19 A. In Foca.

20 Q. What ethnicity are you?

21 A. Muslim.

22 Q. In 1992 where did you live?

23 A. In Miljevina.

24 Q. Who did you live with?

25 A. My mother and father.

1 Q. Did you work at that time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where did you work?

4 A. At the footwear factory in Miljevina.

5 Q. What did you do there?

6 A. It's a footwear factory.

7 Q. What was your job?

8 A. It was a chain production system.

9 Q. Do you know when the war in Foca started?

10 A. On the 7th of April, 1992.

11 Q. How do you know it started that day?

12 A. It was my birthday.

13 Q. Did you see or hear anything related to the

14 war?

15 A. We heard things happening, but it was all

16 very sudden.

17 Q. Did you see shooting or did you hear

18 shooting? Did you see anything burning?

19 A. Yes. Afterwards we saw the surrounding

20 villages burning.

21 Q. When you say "afterwards", what time period

22 are you talking about?

23 A. After a day or two.

24 Q. Were there houses burning in your village?

25 A. No. The surrounding villages.

1 Q. Did you see soldiers in your village?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you see what they were doing?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What were they doing?

6 A. They were taking people out of their houses

7 and taking them in an unknown direction.

8 Q. When you say "people", what kind of people?

9 Ordinary people or specific people?

10 A. Muslims.

11 Q. And the people that they were taking out,

12 were they in uniform or in civilian clothing?

13 A. The Serbs were dressed in military uniforms

14 and the Muslims in civilian clothes.

15 Q. And the Serbs in military clothing are the

16 ones that you described as soldiers; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did anyone order that weapons be turned in?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. Did you continue to work during this time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you scared?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you feel targeted because you were

25 Muslim?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you able to move around town freely?

3 A. No. No.

4 Q. Why not?

5 A. We were afraid.

6 Q. Can you describe what specifically you were

7 afraid of?

8 A. Everything.

9 Q. Did any Serb soldiers ever come to your

10 house?

11 A. Several of them came.

12 Q. When did they come?

13 A. They came in the morning and in the evening

14 and in the afternoon. It all depended. They came

15 whenever they wanted.

16 Q. How often did they come to your house?

17 A. Whenever they wanted to.

18 Q. Did you know any of those soldiers?

19 A. Yes. They were our neighbours.

20 Q. When they came to your house, did they say

21 why they had come?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What did they say?

24 A. They were looking for me.

25 Q. Did they say why they were looking for you?

1 A. No. They just kept asking where I was.

2 Q. What would you do when the Serb soldiers came

3 to your house?

4 A. I hid everywhere.

5 Q. Were your parents at home during those times?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What did your parents tell the soldiers when

8 they were looking for you?

9 A. My mother would say that she didn't know

10 where I was.

11 Q. Were you ever found?

12 A. Later, yes.

13 Q. And how were you found?

14 A. When we all had to abandon our houses.

15 Q. Do you remember when that was?

16 A. Mid-August, something like that. I don't

17 know. Mid-August, I think it was.

18 Q. How did you know that you had to abandon your

19 houses?

20 A. They announced it on the loudspeakers on the

21 cars, that all of us had to leave, the Muslim

22 population had to leave our apartments and houses.

23 Q. Do you know who was making the announcements

24 or who was responsible for the announcements?

25 A. Perhaps Krnojelac [as interpreted]. I don't

1 know.

2 Q. What did you do when you heard the

3 announcements?

4 A. We got ready. We only had one bag, that's

5 all, to take with us.

6 Q. And was it you and your parents who packed

7 that one bag, and then what did you do?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where did you go?

10 A. Foca.

11 Q. How did you get there?

12 A. On buses.

13 Q. Were these buses that were organised for this

14 purpose or were they ordinary buses?

15 A. Ordinary buses.

16 Q. And without mentioning any names, who was on

17 the buses with you, what kind of people?

18 A. You mean men?

19 Q. Well, I guess the question is "men, women,

20 children." Were they villagers; who?

21 A. I don't know the exact number, but there were

22 two buses full of people, something like that.

23 Q. The people included men, women, and children;

24 is that right?

25 A. Yes, but three men. All the others had been

1 taken away.

2 Q. Where in Foca were you taken?

3 A. Partizan.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 MS. LOPICIC: When the Witness AS answers

6 there, she said "Pero Elez", and it says "Krnojelac".

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Where is that?

8 MS. LOPICIC: At page number 12 of my

9 laptop.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think I also saw the

11 name "Krnojelac".

12 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I can ask the witness

13 this question, because I think there might have been an

14 interpretation discrepancy.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. The answer is shown as

16 "Krnojelac", line 2.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead and ask

18 the question again.

19 MS. KUO:

20 Q. Witness, I asked you earlier about who you

21 thought was responsible for the announcements on the

22 cars telling people to leave, telling the Muslims to

23 leave. Could you tell us again who you thought that

24 person was who was responsible?

25 A. I heard it was Pero Elez, but I don't

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1 remember now. He ordered them to take me away and to

2 rape me. What do you want?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, just answer questions

4 from counsel.

5 MS. KUO: It was just that several people

6 heard a different name, that's all.

7 Q. What did you do when you got to Partizan?

8 A. They lined us up and read out our names.

9 Q. When you say "they", who do you mean?

10 A. The Serbs.

11 Q. Were these also soldiers?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what did you do? What did you do when

14 they called out names?

15 A. Nothing. We stood there waiting, and later

16 they took us inside, into Partizan.

17 Q. What happened when you were taken inside

18 Partizan?

19 A. We stayed there. I don't remember for how

20 long. For a while, it was quiet, and then the soldiers

21 came.

22 Q. What did the soldiers do when they came?

23 A. They took a Muslim away into a room, and we

24 heard them beating him. And then this Misko came. He

25 demanded where I was, that I should come out, that I

1 should go with him to testify.

2 Q. Did you know Misko from before?

3 A. No.

4 Q. What happened when he asked for you?

5 A. He said -- he called my name out, asking

6 where I was, saying that I should go with him to

7 testify. I don't know what he meant. Afterwards, they

8 separated me from my father and mother.

9 Q. Did this Misko take you some place?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where did he take you?

12 A. To Karaman's House in Miljevina.

13 Q. Did you know about Karaman's House before you

14 were taken there?

15 A. I knew that the Karamans lived there. The

16 house is close to where I used to live.

17 Q. Had you heard anything about what was

18 happening at Karaman's House during the war, before you

19 were taken there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What had you heard about it?

22 A. We heard that several young women were

23 detained there.

24 Q. Who did you hear this from?

25 A. We heard it from neighbours.

1 Q. Were these Serb neighbours, or Muslim

2 neighbours, or both?

3 A. Both, but more from Muslims, because we

4 didn't dare have any contact.

5 Q. I'm sorry, you didn't dare have contact with

6 whom?

7 A. We didn't have contacts with the Muslims.

8 Q. You mean the Muslims didn't dare have contact

9 with each other?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Had you been told that that was not

12 permitted?

13 A. We didn't -- we were not allowed to move

14 around at all.

15 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I

16 would like to have the witness shown Exhibit 11,

17 photographs 7353 and 7358. And could photograph 7353

18 first be placed on the ELMO.

19 Q. Witness, do you recognise the house in the

20 middle of this photograph?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What is it?

23 A. Karaman's.

24 Q. And could you please indicate, do you see the

25 area where your house was, the house where you lived

1 with your parents?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Before the witness does that,

3 won't that identify the witness? It's okay with you,

4 Counsel?

5 MS. KUO: I'm just asking her the general

6 area, to show the proximity.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, then.

8 A. This is Karaman's House, and this down here

9 is where I lived.

10 MS. KUO: Thank you. And I would also like

11 to have photograph 7358 placed on the ELMO.

12 Q. Do you recognise what's shown on this

13 photograph?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you describe what you see?

16 A. That's the hotel and the road where I lived

17 for a short time.

18 Q. Can you tell if this photograph would have

19 been taken from one of the terraces at Karaman's House?

20 A. I think it is, yes.

21 Q. Again, do you see the general area where your

22 house was at that time?

23 A. Here somewhere [indicates].

24 Q. Thank you. When Misko took you to Karaman's

25 House, was he dressed in uniform?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When you arrived at Karaman's House, were

3 there other people there?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I

6 would like to have this witness shown Exhibit 198.

7 Q. Witness, looking at Exhibit 198, could you

8 give us the numbers of any of the people that you saw

9 at Karaman's House at that time, either the number next

10 to their name or the initials next to their name?

11 A. There was 87, 75, AB -- she came

12 afterwards -- DB.

13 Q. And is there also a name that does not have

14 an initial next to it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was that person there at the time or brought

17 later?

18 A. She was already there.

19 Q. Was there anybody else there at that time

20 whose name does not appear on that exhibit?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were there also soldiers there?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Approximately how many soldiers would you say

25 were there?

1 A. When I got there, there were two, two or

2 three. I don't remember exactly.

3 Q. What happened to you when you arrived at

4 Karaman's House?

5 A. They ordered me -- they raped me.

6 Q. Who raped you?

7 A. There were two of them, or three; I don't

8 remember.

9 Q. When you say "them", who do you mean? Were

10 they soldiers? Were they people you knew? Who?

11 A. Yes, soldiers. Serbs.

12 Q. Where did they rape you?

13 A. They ordered me to go up to the room.

14 Q. What room?

15 A. On the upper floor.

16 Q. And did they order you to do anything else?

17 A. Afterwards I had to go down to the kitchen,

18 where there were others, other girls.

19 Q. And you mentioned that you were raped by two

20 soldiers or three?

21 A. I think two or three. I don't remember. I

22 was in a state of shock.

23 Q. Did you know their names?

24 A. I know them. Nikola was one. I don't

25 remember the others.

1 Q. And when you used the word "rape", and I'm

2 sorry I have to ask you this, what specifically do you

3 mean that they did?

4 A. They destroyed everything in me.

5 Q. Just so the Court knows, since the Court

6 needs to know specifically for the record, did they put

7 their penises into your vagina?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And that was against your will?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You said afterwards they ordered you to go

12 downstairs; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What happened when you were downstairs?

15 A. Pero Elez came later on and asked me what I

16 was doing there, and then he laughed. There were two

17 other soldiers, but I don't remember who they were,

18 with him.

19 Q. Did you know who Pero Elez was before the

20 war?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How did you know him?

23 A. I knew him by sight. We would say, "hello,

24 hello," and that was it.

25 Q. Did any of the other soldiers say anything?

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1 A. No, I don't remember.

2 Q. Did anybody threaten you specifically on that

3 day, what they would do?

4 A. No, I don't know.

5 Q. How did you feel that day when you were at

6 Karaman's House that first day?

7 A. I cried and pleaded with them to let me go.

8 Q. What was their response?

9 A. They all laughed.

10 Q. How long were you kept at Karaman's House?

11 A. I don't remember. Perhaps a month or two,

12 three. I don't know. I don't remember.

13 Q. Could you describe what happened to you at

14 Karaman's House during those few months?

15 A. Various soldiers would come. They gave us

16 orders to go with them. And we had to wash their

17 clothing for them, to make their meals, to do the

18 cleaning work around the house and everything else.

19 Q. Did those soldiers also sexually assault or

20 rape you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How often?

23 A. Perhaps 50 times, 60. I don't know.

24 Q. Did you know any of those soldiers?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Who were they?

2 A. They were there. They lived there. There

3 were two or three who lived in that house.

4 Q. What were their names?

5 A. One of them was called Nikola; the other, I

6 don't remember his name.

7 Q. And aside from those whom you described as

8 living there, did other soldiers also come to the house

9 and rape you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you tell who was in charge of the

12 house?

13 A. I don't remember. Stankovic. I don't know.

14 I don't remember the names. Stankovic, Pero Elez.

15 There were several. I don't know.

16 Q. Could you tell where these soldiers were

17 from?

18 A. They were from Miljevina, Foca, Montenegro.

19 Q. Do you know or remember if someone named Zaga

20 ever came to that house?

21 A. No, I don't remember. I never saw him. I

22 just know -- I don't remember. Perhaps I was taken to

23 the room, perhaps not. I don't remember.

24 Q. Was there a time when you were told that he

25 would be coming to the house?

1 A. Yes. We would talk amongst ourselves.

2 Q. When you say "we", who do you mean?

3 A. The girls, those of us who were there in the

4 house.

5 Q. Did a soldier ever say that someone named

6 Zaga was coming to the house?

7 A. Yes -- no, I don't remember.

8 Q. Did any of the other girls tell you that a

9 person named Zaga was coming to the house?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did she tell you?

12 A. That she was afraid of him. That she was

13 afraid of him.

14 Q. Do you remember which girl it was? And if

15 you do, please give us her number.

16 A. 75.

17 Q. Did she say why she was afraid of Zaga?

18 A. She didn't go into any details. She just --

19 Q. I'm sorry. She just what?

20 A. I think she was raped, that he raped her. I

21 don't know.

22 Q. But you yourself never saw Zaga, did you?

23 A. No. No.

24 Q. During the time that you were kept at

25 Karaman's House, did you or the other girls feel free

1 to leave?

2 A. No.

3 Q. How did you feel being kept at that house?

4 A. Well, I felt all kinds of things.

5 Q. Perhaps you can try to explain to the Court

6 some of those things.

7 A. It was very hard for us, for me.

8 Q. Were you taken away from Karaman's House at

9 some point?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who took you away?

12 A. Tuta.

13 Q. Did he say why he was taking you away?

14 A. No. He told us he was taking us to Foca,

15 nothing else.

16 Q. Where in Foca did he take you?

17 A. Could you repeat that, please?

18 Q. Where in Foca did he take you?

19 A. He took us to an apartment.

20 Q. Who else was taken with you?

21 A. 87. I remember I was with her.

22 Q. Do you remember whether 75 was also taken?

23 A. No. I know that AB was taken. I don't

24 remember the rest.

25 Q. So when Tuta took you away, it was with 87

1 and AB, as far as you remember; is that right?

2 A. Yes. I know about 87 for sure; I'm certain

3 of that.

4 Q. And what happened to you when you were taken

5 by Tuta to this flat in Foca?

6 A. He introduced two soldiers to us.

7 Q. You say "introduced". What do you mean?

8 A. He said that we would be with them.

9 Q. What did you understand that to mean?

10 A. Well, we had to be with them because there

11 was no other way out for us.

12 Q. Do you mean you had no choice but to obey

13 what he said?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What did those two soldiers do to you?

16 A. They took us to the apartment in the Lepa

17 Brena building.

18 Q. And what happened there?

19 A. They took us there, and Jagos Kostic ordered

20 me to go with him outside, to go with him, that I had

21 to go walking with him, and 87 stayed.

22 Q. Let me back up a little bit there. The two

23 soldiers who took you to the Lepa Brena Block, do you

24 know their names?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Who were they?

2 A. Radomir Kovac and Jagos Kostic.

3 Q. Did you also know them by their nicknames?

4 A. Klanfa, Jago.

5 Q. And Klanfa was Radomir Kovac; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you know either of them before the war?

8 A. No.

9 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I

10 would like to have the witness shown Exhibit 11,

11 photograph 7401.

12 Q. Do you recognise what is shown in that

13 exhibit?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What is it?

16 A. That's the building where we were.

17 Q. Are you able to identify which apartment you

18 were taken to from this photograph?

19 A. I think somewhere here [indicates], the

20 fourth or fifth floor, sixth. I don't remember the

21 floor exactly.

22 Q. So you're indicating the fourth, fifth, or

23 sixth floor above the ground level; is that right?

24 A. I don't remember anymore which floor it was.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, you said that when you

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1 were taken to that apartment, that Kostic took you

2 outside; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What did he do when he took you outside?

5 A. I had to walk through town with him.

6 Q. When you say you had to walk through town

7 with him, can you describe what happened?

8 A. Well, I had to take him under the arm, take

9 hold of his arm.

10 Q. He took you by your arm; is that right?

11 A. No. I had to do this [indicates], take --

12 put my arm through his.

13 Q. And how did you know you had to do this?

14 A. He told me.

15 Q. How was Kostic dressed at that time? Was he

16 in uniform or civilian clothes?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. Do you remember --

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. Do you remember if he had a weapon?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. Where did he take you?

23 A. To a cafe.

24 Q. What did you do at the cafe?

25 A. Sat around, and afterwards he took me back to

1 the apartment.

2 Q. Did you feel you had any choice but to go

3 with him to the cafe?

4 A. I had to go.

5 Q. Did he say anything to you to threaten you?

6 A. Not at the beginning, but afterwards he did,

7 yes.

8 Q. How were you feeling when he took you out of

9 the apartment to the cafe?

10 A. I was afraid.

11 Q. When you were outside, did you see people

12 that you knew?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How did they react to seeing you and Kostic?

15 A. Nothing. They just watched. Nothing.

16 Q. Did you try to say anything to them about

17 being scared or asking them to help you?

18 A. I couldn't ask them, because they were all

19 Serbs too.

20 Q. What did Kostic do with you after he took you

21 to the cafe?

22 A. He then took me back to the apartment.

23 Q. Was Kovac still in the apartment?

24 A. I think he was, yes. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know what he was doing?

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Do you know what happened to 87 while Kostic

3 took you out of the flat?

4 A. I think he raped her.

5 Q. Why do you think that?

6 A. She told me afterwards, she told me

7 afterwards.

8 Q. And what did Kostic do to you after he

9 brought you back to the apartment?

10 A. I had to go into the room with him.

11 Q. What room?

12 A. Well, into a room in that apartment.

13 Q. What happened to you in that room?

14 A. He raped me.

15 Q. When you use the word "rape", do you mean

16 what you described before, what happened to you at

17 Karaman's House?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know if Kovac was there at that time

20 when Kostic was raping you?

21 A. I don't remember. No, I don't remember.

22 Q. How long were you kept in that flat?

23 A. Maybe a month or so, maybe two.

24 Q. Could you tell whose flat it was?

25 A. We heard that a doctor or a teacher used to

1 live there. I don't know. I don't know exactly.

2 Q. But during the time that you were there,

3 could you tell who had control over the flat?

4 A. Klanfa.

5 Q. On what do you base that conclusion that

6 Klanfa had control over the flat?

7 A. I think he was the number 1 there.

8 Q. How often did Klanfa come to the flat?

9 A. They were always there, unless they went to

10 the front.

11 Q. By "they", you mean Klanfa and Kostic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember if the door to the apartment

14 was locked?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know who had the keys?

17 A. No, I don't remember.

18 Q. Were you girls allowed to come and leave as

19 you wished?

20 A. No.

21 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I

22 would like to have this witness shown Defence Exhibit

23 D37.

24 Q. Do you recognise this sketch?

25 A. Yes, a little bit.

1 Q. Maybe you can indicate to us what it is and

2 describe it for us, please.

3 A. I remember this was the entrance. I remember

4 this room here [indicates]. I don't remember exactly

5 whether in this room or in the kitchen. In one room

6 there was furniture, a sofa and a table. I don't

7 remember where exactly the kitchen was. The bathroom

8 perhaps could have been here [indicates].

9 Q. This is more or less a sketch of the

10 apartment, Klanfa's apartment, that you're describing;

11 is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And do you see a place that has the label

14 "toilet" on it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that's to the right of the sketch; is

17 that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is that where the toilet was, as you remember

20 it?

21 A. I don't remember. I really don't remember.

22 I couldn't tell.

23 Q. Now, at the top of the sketch there are two

24 rooms that have the label "room"; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And the room to the right is somewhat smaller

2 than the room to the left; is that right?

3 A. Yes. I think that was the children's room.

4 Q. The smaller one; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Which room did Kostic rape you in that first

7 day?

8 A. Here [indicates].

9 Q. The one you described as being the children's

10 room, to the right; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were there doors on these rooms, doors that

13 you could close or lock?

14 A. Yes, there were doors.

15 Q. Would you say that it was a big or a small

16 flat?

17 A. Rather big.

18 Q. Do you know what the size was, the

19 measurements?

20 A. No, I don't remember.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, the room that you described

22 as being the children's room, who slept in that room

23 during the time you were kept there?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. Why did you sleep in that room?

1 A. I had to be there with Jagos.

2 Q. Did you have any choice in that matter?

3 A. No. No.

4 Q. Did anyone sleep in the larger room?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who was that?

7 A. 87 and Klanfa.

8 Q. Do you know if she had a choice in that

9 matter?

10 A. No.

11 Q. No, she didn't have a choice, or no, you

12 didn't know?

13 A. No. Neither of us had any choice.

14 Q. Was it obvious to you that Kovac knew that

15 Kostic was in the smaller room with you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know whether the two men agreed to

18 this arrangement? Was that clear to you?

19 A. I think so, yes.

20 Q. Did Kostic have any weapons?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did Kovac have weapons?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What kind of weapons did they have?

25 A. Knives, rifles, pistol.

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1 Q. Where did they keep their weapons?

2 A. I know that Jagos kept his under the pillow,

3 a knife and a pistol, where we slept, where I had to

4 sleep.

5 Q. Did Kostic rape you again after that first

6 day?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How often?

9 A. Well, whenever he wanted to.

10 Q. Did you have any choice?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And I'm sorry again, but the Court needs to

13 know very specifically, when you used the word "rape",

14 do you mean that he put his penis into your vagina

15 against your will?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did he sometimes also put his penis in your

18 mouth?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When Kostic raped you, was Kovac in the

21 apartment as well?

22 A. Sometimes he was, sometimes he wasn't.

23 Q. Do you believe that Kovac knew that Kostic

24 was raping you?

25 A. Well, yes.

1 Q. Can you describe why you believe that?

2 A. They were living there together.

3 Q. Did they appear to have a good relationship

4 with each other, that they talked with each other and

5 seemed to get along?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did Kostic ever beat you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you describe that for us, please?

10 A. Once he took me out and he put a knife

11 against my neck and he beat me with his fists and legs,

12 and he took me out to the stairway and with his knife

13 he threatened to slit my throat.

14 Q. Do you recall when this was?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Were you sick at that time, before he beat

17 you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How were you sick? What did you have?

20 A. I had the flu, because it was very cold in

21 that flat.

22 Q. Did Kostic say why he was beating you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did Kovac ever beat you?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Did he ever rape you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know if Kovac was raping anyone else

4 in that apartment?

5 A. Yes. 87.

6 Q. How do you know that?

7 A. I was there.

8 Q. Could you hear when the rapes were happening?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did Kovac ever do anything else to you or

11 anyone else in the apartment?

12 A. To me, no.

13 Q. Was there a time when Kovac forced you and

14 the other girl, or girls, to take your clothes off?

15 A. Oh, yes, yes.

16 Q. Could you describe for us what happened that

17 time?

18 A. They ordered us to take our clothes off, to

19 strip.

20 Q. When you say "they", who do you mean?

21 A. Radomir Kovac and Jagos Kostic, and I think

22 there was another one or two soldiers present, but I

23 don't remember exactly.

24 Q. And when you say "the girls", could you tell

25 us who they were, by number or initial?

1 A. 87, AB.

2 Q. Do you remember if 75 was there as well?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And by "no", do you mean that she was not

5 there or you don't remember?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. What happened after they forced you girls to

8 take your clothes off?

9 A. They told us to dance.

10 Q. And is that what you did?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you feel like you could say no or refuse?

13 A. We had to do it.

14 Q. How did you feel?

15 A. Bad.

16 Q. Were you also scared?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You mentioned that there were other soldiers

19 present. Were there soldiers present at other times as

20 well?

21 A. No. I don't remember.

22 Q. Were there times when soldiers came to the

23 flat, other than Kovac and Kostic?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. Were you ever taken out of that flat after

1 the first day?

2 A. No. No.

3 Q. Do you remember specifically that you were

4 always in the flat, or you don't remember the details?

5 A. We were there all the time, as far as I can

6 remember.

7 Q. You mentioned that when you were forced to

8 take your clothes off and dance, that AB was also

9 there. Do you remember how she came to the apartment?

10 Did she come with you and 87?

11 A. I think she was, but I don't know. I don't

12 remember.

13 Q. Do you remember how she was taken away from

14 the apartment?

15 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

16 Q. How old was AB at the time?

17 A. She was 12.

18 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I

19 would like to have this witness shown Exhibit 195. It

20 should not be placed on the ELMO. That's a

21 confidential exhibit.

22 Q. Is that AB in the photograph?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is that how she appeared at the time that you

25 saw her in 1992?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. While you were kept in that flat,

3 did you also have to do housework?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What kinds of things did you have to do?

6 A. To clean the flat.

7 Q. You also had to wash clothes for Kovac and

8 Kostic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you also have to serve them food or

11 drinks?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you have any contact with the outside

14 world like your family?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did your family know where you were?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you feel like you were the property of

19 Klanfa and Kostic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Are you able to describe why you felt that

22 way?

23 A. Whatever they said, we had to do.

24 Q. Are you able to identify Radomir Kovac

25 today?

1 A. In the middle [indicates], the third from the

2 right, the third [indicates].

3 Q. Could you perhaps describe what he's wearing?

4 A. He has a bluish-grey suit and a grey tie.

5 MS. KUO: Let the record reflect the witness

6 has identified the accused Radomir Kovac.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MS. KUO:

9 Q. Witness, was there a time when Kovac was in

10 the hospital, do you know?

11 A. He was wounded, I think.

12 Q. Do you remember when that was?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you remember for how long he was in the

15 hospital?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you remember how you learned that he was

18 in the hospital?

19 A. I just remember that someone came to the door

20 and brought Klanfa's clothes and said he had been

21 wounded. I don't remember who it was or what.

22 Q. Would you be able to recognise that person

23 today?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Was it a soldier?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When were you taken away from this flat?

3 A. After a month or two. I don't know exactly.

4 Q. Can you describe for us the circumstances?

5 A. Well, we didn't know how things were at

6 first. Afterwards, we heard that they had sold us for

7 500 German marks and for a truck full of washing

8 powder, something like that.

9 Q. When you say "us", who do you mean?

10 A. Me and 87.

11 Q. And who took you away?

12 A. Misko.

13 Q. Was that Misko alone or with someone else?

14 A. I think there was another one with him.

15 Q. Is this the same Misko that you mentioned

16 earlier when you were still at Miljevina?

17 A. No, no, it's someone else.

18 Q. Do you know where these two men were from?

19 A. From Montenegro.

20 Q. And you said you found out that you had been

21 sold for 500 Deutschemarks. How did you find that

22 out?

23 A. They were laughing amongst themselves and

24 saying, "You see how much you're worth."

25 Q. Who do you mean by "they"?

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1 A. The Montenegrins were laughing among

2 themselves, the Serbs.

3 Q. And did they tell you what they paid for you

4 and 87?

5 A. Yes, 500 German marks and a truck full of

6 washing powder.

7 Q. How did they take you away? Did they use a

8 vehicle?

9 A. Yes, a small car.

10 Q. Was there anything else in the car?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. More specifically, were there also weapons

13 hidden in the car?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did the two Montenegrins say anything about

16 the weapons?

17 A. Afterwards, when we arrived, we reached a

18 small road. They opened the car and said, "Let's have

19 a rest." And 87 was sitting there. They told us to

20 come out, and the car was full of grenades and weapons.

21 Q. Did you go voluntarily with these two

22 Montenegrins?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How did you end up going with them, then?

25 Did someone tell you you had to do it?

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Where did the Montenegrins take you?

3 A. We were in Niksic and Titograd.

4 Q. What did they do to you in Niksic?

5 A. We had to work in a cafe there.

6 Q. Were you ever paid?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Were you also raped?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who raped you?

11 A. The person who was holding us in the house.

12 Q. Was it one of the two that took you there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where were you taken after Niksic?

15 A. They took us to Titograd.

16 Q. Is Titograd the same place at Podgorica?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. What happened to you there?

19 A. We stayed, I don't remember exactly for how

20 long, and we were again raped.

21 Q. How long were you kept in Titograd?

22 A. Maybe eight, maybe ten days. I don't know, I

23 don't remember.

24 Q. Do you remember how you were able to leave

25 Titograd?

1 A. No. I know that someone took me to the bus

2 stop -- I don't know who it was -- and showed me the

3 direction towards a place where Muslims lived.

4 Q. Were you able to contact your family at some

5 point?

6 A. Yes, after a month or two.

7 Q. Where did you arrive after you were put on

8 this bus?

9 A. I arrived in Rozaje.

10 Q. When you contacted your family, did you speak

11 with your mother?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you also speak with your father?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you tell your mother the details of what

16 had happened to you?

17 A. We spoke, but we never entered into the

18 details.

19 Q. When did you see your mother again?

20 A. Five years later.

21 Q. Have you ever told your mother the details of

22 what happened to you?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. Can you explain why not?

25 A. It's too hard.

1 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I have a few more

2 questions, but I see we're at 11.00. Perhaps we can

3 continue after the break.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall have our break,

5 and we shall resume the proceedings at 1130 hours.

6 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is

9 continuing with the examination-in-chief.

10 MS. KUO: Your Honours, before I forget, I

11 would like to make sure that Exhibit 195, which is a

12 photograph of AB, is entered into evidence, and also

13 Exhibit 198, which is a name list, is also entered into

14 evidence.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, it might be easier if

17 you referred to them as a document number until it is

18 actually in evidence, and then we will know that the

19 document you are referring to is not in evidence.

20 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. I was under the

21 misimpression, I believe, that 195 was already in

22 evidence, which is why I called it an exhibit.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, I see. Right.

24 MS. KUO:

25 Q. Witness, after you received safety in Rozaje,

1 did you see a doctor?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did your health suffer as a result of

4 everything you endured?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In what way?

7 A. I had serious infections, a problem with my

8 back and my kidneys, and I was operated for polyps.

9 Q. Do you suffer emotionally from what you

10 endured?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you describe for us in what way?

13 A. Psychologically.

14 Q. Do you continue to suffer psychologically?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are you able to describe that more

17 specifically?

18 A. How do you mean, more specifically?

19 Q. I mean how you feel and what your reaction is

20 to everything that happened to you.

21 A. It's difficult.

22 Q. Are you able to try?

23 A. Yes. I have pills, sedatives, and I also

24 take pills for rheumatism and for everything else.

25 Q. Do any of those pills affect your ability to

1 recall the events that happened to you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Now, did you know that at some point

4 investigators from the Tribunal were trying to contact

5 you?

6 A. Which investigators?

7 Q. Did you receive letters from the Tribunal

8 saying that you were being looked for as a possible

9 witness?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember when you received those

12 letters?

13 A. No, I don't remember.

14 Q. Do you remember how many letters you

15 received?

16 A. One.

17 Q. Did you respond to it?

18 A. No. I was afraid.

19 Q. When did you finally agree to meet with

20 representatives from the Tribunal?

21 A. Over the telephone. I heard -- I talked to

22 someone from here by phone, and after that I decided to

23 come.

24 Q. Was that in mid-March of this year?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

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1 Q. Did you ever give a formal signed statement

2 to anybody from the Tribunal?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Can you describe why you finally decided to

5 speak to the Tribunal?

6 A. Because of my future.

7 Q. Can you be more specific about what you mean?

8 A. To say what happened.

9 Q. And in what way is that related to your

10 future?

11 A. It will make me feel better.

12 Q. Until you reached safety in Rozaje, were you

13 scared all the time?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you afraid you might be killed?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you ever feel that you had any control

18 over where you went? I'm sorry. I didn't hear your

19 answer.

20 A. How do you mean, control over events?

21 Q. I'm sorry. Control over where you went,

22 where you were taken, where you were kept. Did you

23 feel you had any choice or any control over that?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you feel that you had any control over

1 who you went with?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you have any control over anything that

4 was done to you sexually?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you have any control over anything that

7 happened to you during that time, at all?

8 A. No.

9 MS. KUO: Your Honour, those are all the

10 questions from the Prosecution.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Any

12 cross-examination by the Defence?

13 Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.

14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

15 I just have two questions, if I may, to ask of the

16 witness.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please go ahead.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

19 Q. Before I ask my questions, I would like to

20 say good morning to the witness. Good morning.

21 You said today, Witness, that you were taken

22 from the Partizan and that a soldier came whose name

23 was Misko, a Montenegrin. Did you see that Misko in

24 Miljevina later on?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did he belong to the army from Miljevina?

2 A. I don't remember that.

3 Q. Was he friends with the soldiers from

4 Miljevina?

5 A. Well, I think he was, yes.

6 Q. Thank you. You told us who you found in

7 Karaman's House when you got there.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And from your testimony you said that you

10 spent several months with Witness 87.

11 A. And with all the rest.

12 Q. Yes, but you spent most of the time with her,

13 didn't you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was there a time when the two of you were

16 alone and when you would tell each other things?

17 A. Well, of course there were, yes. We were

18 always together, yes.

19 Q. Did she tell you anything? Would she tell

20 you what was happening to her?

21 A. Well, we talked about everything, but we

22 wanted to forget, as best we could, what was

23 happening.

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Will Counsel

25 Prodanovic please switch off his microphone when he's

1 listening to the answers, and make pauses between the

2 questions and the answers, please.

3 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Yes, I will.

5 I have no further questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Kolesar.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

8 Honour, I have a certain number of questions.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar:

10 Q. Good morning, Witness.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. I am going to ask you to focus your attention

13 at your stay in the apartment in the Lepa Brena Block.

14 Tell me, please, to begin with -- and you say that you

15 got to the apartment, that you came there from

16 Karaman's House; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. You told us that you were brought to Foca by

19 Tuta, that you were brought to an apartment. Was it

20 only Tuta? Was there somebody else with Tuta?

21 A. Well, I know Tuta was there, but I don't

22 remember who the other one was.

23 Q. Well, I don't understand you.

24 A. Tuta was there, yes.

25 Q. But was anybody else there with him?

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Thank you. Specifically, where did you see

3 Kovac and Kostic for the first time?

4 A. Well, we saw them in an apartment.

5 Q. Could you tell us where the apartment was?

6 Could you locate it?

7 A. Yes. I remember that we were in the Lepa

8 Brena building. We stayed there.

9 Q. Do I understand you to mean that they too

10 came to an apartment which was in Lepa Brena?

11 A. Yes, I remember that it was the Lepa Brena

12 building, but I can't remember all the details.

13 Q. Before you left Karaman's House on your way

14 to Foca, where Tuta took you on that particular day,

15 was there an unpleasant incident which took place in

16 connection with a Serb soldier?

17 A. I do not remember.

18 Q. Let me remind you. Did anybody try to ask

19 you to make the sign of the cross, you and the girls

20 who were to leave that house that day; did anything

21 similar happen?

22 A. Yes, that took place in Karaman's House, but

23 it was before we left to go to Foca.

24 Q. Was it on that same day or on a previous day?

25 A. No, it was on a previous day.

1 Q. Do you know the name of that soldier?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. When you were taken over by Kostic and Kovac,

4 did they tell you why you were going to the apartment

5 with them?

6 A. No.

7 Q. It would be easier for you and for me if we

8 make pauses between questions and answers, because I

9 have to press the button here to ensure that your voice

10 is protected.

11 The journey from the apartment where you were

12 taken over and to the apartment where you spent some

13 time later on, how did you do that journey?

14 A. How do you mean?

15 Q. Well, on foot or by car?

16 A. By car.

17 Q. You mean from the apartment you were taken

18 over from Tuta and the Lepa Brena building apartment,

19 you went there by car, did you?

20 A. I don't remember that, but from Miljevina to

21 Foca, we went by car.

22 Q. Well, yes, that is logical, and I didn't ask

23 you that exactly. I asked you about the trip from the

24 apartment where you were with Tuta to the apartment

25 where Kovac and Kostic lived.

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1 A. Well, I don't remember that.

2 Q. On this trip, did Kovac perhaps tell you that

3 you would be there, that you would be protected, that

4 nobody would touch you, that they wouldn't bring

5 anybody else, and that you would stay there until the

6 time had come for you to leave Foca?

7 A. I don't remember that.

8 Q. On the way, were you mistreated, sworn at, or

9 physically abused in any way?

10 A. No.

11 Q. I apologise. I didn't hear the answer.

12 Would you repeat it.

13 A. No.

14 Q. On the way, did you stop off to buy anything;

15 any food in a shop, for example?

16 A. No, no. No, I don't remember, no.

17 Q. You don't remember or you did not?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. Would you later at any point go down to the

20 shop to buy food?

21 A. No.

22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I would like to

23 show the witness a photograph, 407 -- 401. It is

24 Prosecution Exhibit 11.

25 Q. If you recall, that is the photograph you

1 were shown a moment ago by the Prosecution during its

2 examination, and you said it was a photograph of the

3 Lepa Brena Block, and you indicated where the apartment

4 was located in which you spent some time with Kostic

5 and Kovac. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you still maintain that those are the

8 balconies on the fourth, fifth, or sixth floors?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I should like

11 to ask the usher to show another photograph to the

12 witness. And I have sufficient copies for the Trial

13 Chamber, the Registry, and the Prosecution, and I have

14 the original.

15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This will be

16 Defence Exhibit D38.

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Would you take a look at this photograph

19 carefully and tell us whether you can identify the

20 building on it?

21 A. Well, it's the same building, I think.

22 Q. If I understand you correctly, you say that

23 it is the Lepa Brena Block.

24 A. Well, I can't remember everything in detail,

25 but ...

1 Q. Would you please compare this photograph with

2 the one you saw a moment ago and see if it is what you

3 mean?

4 A. It was not the building that raped me. How

5 should I know?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps the witness can simply

7 say it is similar, if that is possible to say from the

8 photograph under the Prosecution exhibit.

9 A. Perhaps it's similar, yes. I don't know, I

10 don't remember.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I should now

12 like to ask the usher to show the witness another

13 photograph.

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The

15 photograph will be D39 of the Defence.

16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Do you recognise this building on the

18 photograph?

19 A. Well, they're all similar. I don't know.

20 Listen, I didn't live in Foca. I was held there,

21 nothing else, and I can't remember all the details.

22 Q. This last photograph, is that the entrance to

23 the building which leads to the apartment in which you

24 spent some time?

25 A. I don't remember.

1 Q. Tell me, please, how could you remember when

2 you were shown the first photograph that that was the

3 Lepa Brena building?

4 A. Well, I remember the colour, I remember what

5 the balcony was like, and that's it.

6 Q. Well, would you look at that first

7 photograph, please, and look at the last photograph

8 that I've just shown you, what the difference is in the

9 colour and the appearance of the balconies and the

10 similarity.

11 A. Well, I remember the trees. I don't

12 remember. Listen, I can't remember all the details,

13 because I wasn't raped by the buildings. Do you

14 understand that? I did not live in Foca.

15 Q. I understand you completely.

16 A. I don't know. I don't remember. I just

17 don't remember this building. I don't remember.

18 They're all very similar. I can't remember. I know

19 that it was like this, and if I went to Foca on the

20 spot, I would be able to recognise it, but judging by

21 the photographs, I don't know.

22 Q. Could you tell us something about the

23 furniture in the apartment?

24 A. Oh, really. There was a sofa, there was --

25 Q. No. I mean in the different rooms. What was

1 in the living room?

2 A. There were two rooms. There was a kitchen, a

3 bathroom, a hallway.

4 Q. How was the living room furnished?

5 A. There was a sofa, there was a table, there

6 was another piece of furniture.

7 Q. Do you remember what the table was like?

8 A. White.

9 Q. What did you say?

10 A. It was a white table.

11 Q. When you came to that apartment, what did you

12 have by way of clothing?

13 A. What did I have? Well, I had nothing. Just

14 what was on me, what I was wearing.

15 Q. Were you allowed to use the clothes that were

16 in the apartment, if they fitted you?

17 A. Well, we hardly found anything.

18 Q. What about the bathroom? Was there a washing

19 machine in the bathroom?

20 A. What would I need a washing machine for when

21 there was no electricity or water?

22 Q. How did you manage to cook?

23 A. Cook? Well, we had tins three or four days.

24 Sometimes we had nothing.

25 Q. Where did you get the tins from?

1 A. They would bring them.

2 Q. When there was electricity and when you were

3 able to cook, did you cook?

4 A. What should I cook? We had nothing to cook.

5 Q. You told me that you were locked in and that

6 you couldn't go out of the apartment.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. If that is correct, then that soldier could

9 have gone into the apartment and taken Kovac's

10 equipment when he was wounded.

11 A. Well, I don't know how he entered, nor did I

12 see it. I was in the other room. Perhaps he gave him

13 the key, because we were locked in there. That's what

14 I want to know.

15 Q. Did you go to your neighbour's to borrow some

16 coffee and make some coffee at the neighbour's place,

17 who had a coal stove, when there was electricity?

18 A. No. We did not go out.

19 Q. Would your female neighbours come to see you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you remember whether in that same entrance

22 there was a close relation of Kovac's living there?

23 A. Yes. Yes. There was a woman there, yes.

24 Q. Would she come up to the apartment?

25 A. No, she didn't come.

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1 Q. Did she bring you food, get you some food?

2 A. Yes, once when I was ill, because we had

3 nothing to eat. We had no water or anything.

4 Q. Just once?

5 A. Yes, as far as I remember.

6 Q. How did she do this? How did she get this

7 stuff to you?

8 A. She gave a bag to 87 through the window and

9 she placed some soup in a plastic bag and I think some

10 cigarettes. I don't know. I was too ill to notice. I

11 had a very high temperature.

12 Q. Tell me, please, when you -- when they

13 weren't at the front, as you said, and when you would

14 prepare meals, did you all sit down at the same table

15 and eat together or did you eat separately?

16 A. I don't remember that.

17 Q. So you maintain that you didn't go to your

18 neighbour's to borrow coffee and sugar, nor did your

19 neighbours come to visit you, nor did you do any

20 cooking; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's right. As far as I remember, no,

22 we didn't.

23 Q. Could you tell me, please, if Kovac's mother

24 came by at any time?

25 A. I don't remember.

1 Q. You said that on the first day when you

2 arrived, Kostic took you out into town.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you go out at any other time with Kovac

5 and number 87?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. Does the name of a Cafe Linea mean anything

8 to you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What about Leonardo? Does that ring a bell?

11 A. Leonardo?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. No.

14 Q. What about Han?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. You don't remember that cafes with these

17 names exist in Foca?

18 A. I don't know that they exist. I don't

19 remember.

20 Q. You say that you never went with them to

21 cafes.

22 A. No, I didn't.

23 Q. Did you go to any of their friends' or

24 relatives' visiting?

25 A. Well, really. No.

1 Q. You told us how long you spent in the

2 apartment. Could you tell us approximately how many

3 nights Kovac spent in the apartment, approximately,

4 roughly?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Do you know, do you remember, when he was

7 wounded?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Let me try and remind you. Do you remember

10 that for the St. Nicholas feast day there was an attack

11 on Foca?

12 A. St. Nicholas. No, I don't remember that.

13 Had they respected the St. Nicholas feast day, they

14 wouldn't have made war.

15 Q. I am asking you questions, and I should like

16 to ask you to answer questions without any comments.

17 I'm not making any comments, so I should kindly like to

18 ask you to refrain from making comments as well.

19 Have you ever heard of the village of

20 Josanica?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you ever hear of the massacre of the

23 Josanica civilian square, where in ten villages about

24 80 men and civilians were killed and houses burnt down

25 by the Muslim brigade?

1 A. I don't remember how many of ours were

2 killed.

3 Q. Do you know about the battles of Josanica and

4 Masanica?

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. In that period of time, when Kovac was

7 wounded, do you remember an incident that occurred on

8 Christmas Eve, that is, on the orthodox Christmas Eve,

9 when a soldier tried to break into the apartment where

10 you and 87 were?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. Let me remind you. Do you perhaps remember

13 that you went downstairs to see the relative and asked

14 her to call Kovac to defend you?

15 A. How could I go out when I was locked in?

16 Q. During your stay in that apartment, do you

17 remember and do you know whether Kovac was in prison in

18 the KP Dom?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. It's interesting that you cannot remember

21 anything that I'm asking you about.

22 A. I can't lie when I can't remember. So many

23 years have gone by. I can't remember all the details.

24 I remember what happened to me and the suffering I went

25 through, and I cannot remember the other things.

1 Q. Did you say that on one occasion Kovac and

2 Kostic asked you to strip and to dance?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you remember in which room this was?

5 A. In the bigger room, the larger one. I think

6 it was in the living room.

7 Q. And where were you standing and dancing?

8 A. In the room in the flat.

9 Q. Yes, I understand that that is implied. You

10 were in the flat, in the apartment. Was it on the bed,

11 on the floor?

12 A. Standing, standing on the floor.

13 Q. And where were the two of them sitting and

14 where were the other two soldiers that you said were

15 present?

16 A. They were sitting -- how do I know -- on the

17 sofa, on chairs.

18 Q. Can you describe where they were sitting?

19 A. Really. They were sitting on the sofa.

20 Q. Where?

21 A. I'm just repeating. I know that it was in

22 the flat, and in a room, and that there was a sofa and

23 there was a French bed. There were chairs, footstools.

24 Q. Well, then you remember?

25 A. I don't know.

1 Q. I cannot remember or not remember. I wasn't

2 there. I just know what was in there. I'm asking you

3 to try and remember where it was.

4 A. I cannot remember the details now. I know

5 they were sitting like this [indicates] and we were

6 placed like this [indicates]. We had to take off all

7 our clothes. What more do you want?

8 Q. You said today that at first you didn't know

9 you had been sold, and later on you heard from these

10 Montenegrins, who told you, laughingly, that you had

11 been sold for 500 German marks and a truck of washing

12 soda. That is literally what you said. "At first we

13 didn't know we had been sold, but we heard later from

14 the Montenegrins that we had been told for 500 German

15 marks and a truck full of washing powder."

16 A. I don't remember that I said that we didn't

17 know. I said that we had been sold for 500 marks, that

18 they laughed amongst themselves and said, "You see how

19 much you're worth, you're worth 500 marks and a truck

20 full of washing powder," and that's for sure.

21 Q. And when did they tell you that?

22 A. When they had driven us some way from Foca,

23 when we stopped for a rest.

24 Q. And when did you hear for the first time that

25 you had been sold for 500 marks and the washing powder?

1 A. They told us that.

2 Q. When you arrived in Niksic, did you report to

3 Kostic and Kovac?

4 A. Who could we dare report to? We didn't dare

5 utter a word.

6 Q. I'm just asking you. Please don't be angry

7 at me.

8 A. No, I'm not angry at anyone.

9 Q. You certainly have no reason to be angry at

10 me. I'm only doing my job.

11 Does the name Panta mean anything to you?

12 A. Panta? No, no.

13 Q. Did you send a letter from Niksic, from the

14 cafe where you were working in Varespanta [phoen], to

15 Foca?

16 A. No, never.

17 Q. I see, never. You and 87 together, a letter

18 with two hearts drawn at the bottom of it?

19 A. No.

20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

21 Honours. I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Kolesar, just for the

23 record, can you state what the date is of the St.

24 Nicholas Feast Day?

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. St.

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1 Nicholas is on the 19th of December, according to the

2 new calendar.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you sit down, documents

5 38 and 39, do you wish them produced into evidence,

6 because they've been marked for identification only.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you very

8 much for reminding me, Your Honour. Yes, we would like

9 them to be admitted.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the

11 Prosecution?

12 MS. KUO: No, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. They are admitted into

14 evidence, and I take it they will retain the same

15 numbers. Can the Registry please confirm?

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Defence

17 exhibits are marked D38 and D39, and they will be

18 entered into the record.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: And before we finish,

20 Mr. Kolesar, when were these photographs taken? D38,

21 what date?

22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] D38 and D39

23 were taken now, during the recess; that is, in the

24 course of last week.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: That is April 2000?

1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

4 Mr. Jovanovic, any cross-examination?

5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we do

6 have a number of questions, with your permission, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

11 Q. Good morning. I would like to know if you

12 could explain to me, to begin with, what you said

13 today, lines 23, 24, 25 over the LiveNote, that at the

14 beginning of the armed conflict, you continued

15 working?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you explain to us, how was it that you

18 were working in the middle of the war and yet you felt

19 targeted?

20 A. It wasn't in the middle of the war, it was

21 the very beginning. We were told not to leave our

22 houses, and the people who worked should continue

23 working, and that nothing would happen to us.

24 After two months, they started doing with us

25 whatever they wanted, because we had hopes that this

1 would stop.

2 Q. Did I understand you correctly? After the

3 beginning of operations, you went to work for another

4 two months?

5 A. Maybe a month and a half. I'm not quite

6 sure. A month and a half, maybe two.

7 Q. Thank you. I won't take too much of your

8 time.

9 A. We had to work. How could I keep my family?

10 My father was ill anyway.

11 Q. So I assume you received a salary for your

12 work.

13 A. No, they didn't pay us. At the end, they

14 told us that all Muslims had to abandon the factory.

15 Q. Very well. Tell me, please -- let's go back

16 once again to when you left Karaman's House to go to

17 Foca.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you remember, how many people were in the

20 car with you on that occasion? Just the number of

21 persons.

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. Do you remember, when you reached the flat

24 that you claim the second accused Kovac lived in, was

25 it empty or was someone already there?

1 A. Someone had lived there before, I suppose.

2 How do I know? And that is where we stayed.

3 Q. I'm afraid you didn't understand me. When

4 you entered the apartment, was anyone else in the

5 apartment?

6 A. Kovac and Jagos were there.

7 Q. And can you tell me who entered the apartment

8 at that moment?

9 A. What do you mean "who entered"?

10 Q. You mustn't tell us the names. Just say you,

11 and apart from you, who else? If they are one of the

12 people on the list, give us the number. If a third

13 person, tell us. Who is entering the apartment with

14 you?

15 A. I, 87, AB, and I don't remember anyone else.

16 Q. Very well. Can you remember when you saw the

17 witness who is marked, I think, with the number 75 on

18 that list? When did you see her for the last time?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. Can you remember at least the location where

21 you saw her for the last time?

22 A. No.

23 Q. The witness under 75, was she with you in the

24 apartment?

25 A. I cannot remember.

1 Q. How many of you were there in the apartment?

2 No, let me rephrase that.

3 When did you meet Witness 75?

4 A. In Karaman's House.

5 Q. How much time did you spend in Karaman's

6 House with Witness 75?

7 A. Maybe a month or two. I can't remember

8 exactly. We didn't count the days.

9 Q. You would recognise Witness 75 if you were to

10 see her?

11 A. Yes, immediately.

12 Q. Well, how then you can't remember whether she

13 was in the apartment with you?

14 A. I know that I was with 87. I can't remember

15 all the details. I spent most time with Witness 87.

16 We were the ones who stayed together for the longest.

17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

18 Your Honour. I have no further questions.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Any re-examination

20 from the Prosecution?

21 MS. KUO: Just very briefly, Your Honour.

22 Re-examined by Ms. Kuo:

23 Q. Witness, Mr. Kolesar asked you about a living

24 room in Kovac's apartment. Is that the same as the

25 room you indicated on the sketch as being the bigger

1 room?

2 A. Yes, the bigger room.

3 Q. And that was still the same room that Kovac

4 was sleeping in with 87; is that right?

5 A. Yes, I think so. I think so, yes.

6 Q. This sofa that you described as being in that

7 room, did that also become a bed?

8 A. I don't remember that.

9 Q. But, in other words, there's no other room;

10 that's the same room that you've described as being the

11 one where you were forced to dance naked is the same

12 room that Kovac was sleeping in?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Kolesar also asked you whether Kovac told

15 you he was going to protect you. Did you feel

16 protected by him at all?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you feel that your situation at Kovac's

19 apartment was any better than your situation at

20 Karaman's House?

21 A. Not for me.

22 Q. Was there any difference at all to you

23 between those two places?

24 A. No.

25 MS. KUO: No further questions.

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1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

2 Thank you very much, Witness, for coming to

3 give evidence to the Tribunal. You are free now to

4 go.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registrar

7 would like to know whether we need voice distortion for

8 the next witness.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: My apologies. I didn't have

10 my earphones on as I was switching. Was there a

11 question addressed to me? No. Thank you.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, it was.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: I was about to make an oral

14 application with respect to Witness 78, and --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you just give us a minute.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 With respect to the following witness,

20 Witness 78, I believe I should make an application at

21 this time for facial distortion only for this witness.

22 I do not believe that a previous request of

23 this nature has been made with respect to this witness,

24 but during a proofing session with him, he has

25 requested this. And we are not asking for voice

1 distortion, simply facial distortion.

2 Unless my learned friends have any objection

3 to that, that would be my application at this time.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: I just want to be clear for the

5 record. So Witness 78 is only asking for facial

6 distortion besides the pseudonym?

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Correct, yes. I'm sorry, I

8 assumed that by calling him "78", I meant the

9 pseudonym. And in addition thereto, facial distortion

10 only, but not voice distortion as the last witness

11 had.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I would like to ask Defence

13 counsel. You have heard what the Prosecution have

14 said. Any objection?

15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

16 the Defence of Kunarac has no objection regarding the

17 request of my learned friend.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Kolesar?

19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

20 the Kovac Defence has no objection either.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?

22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objection,

23 Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We need a

1 five-minute break to switch off the voice distortion

2 system.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall give the technical

4 people a five-minutes' break.

5 --- Break taken at 12.20 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Good afternoon, Witness.

9 Would you please make the solemn declaration while

10 standing up.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

12 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

13 and nothing but the truth.

14 THE WITNESS: WITNESS 78

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The Prosecution.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

19 Q. Witness, the usher has a piece of paper with

20 a name and a number written on it. Can you tell us,

21 sir, if that is your name? Don't read it out; just

22 tell us if that is your name. Do you need your glasses

23 to see it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That is your name. And just so you see the

1 number that's written underneath it, you'll be referred

2 to by that number from here on in, all right? Do you

3 understand that, sir?

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Might that be marked now as

5 Exhibit -- I believe we're now up to 199 for the

6 Prosecution.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document

8 will be 199, Prosecution Exhibit 199.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: And it is under seal, I take

10 it.

11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, it will

12 be under seal.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: And just so that the Court is

14 aware, this witness is being called as a background

15 witness.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. RYNEVELD:

18 Q. Witness 78, I understand, sir, that you were

19 born in a village in the municipality of Foca, known as

20 Jelec; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And if we can talk about the war breaking out

23 in 1992, I understand, sir, that you moved from Jelec

24 and lived in the town of Foca, within the municipality

25 of Foca, for about 20 years prior to 1992; is that

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And while living in Foca, sir, you were

4 married and had children; is that correct? Or prior,

5 perhaps prior to moving to Foca.

6 A. I had one child in Jelec and the other was

7 born in Foca.

8 Q. All right. Now, sir, as a younger man

9 growing up in the former Yugoslavia, were you subjected

10 to compulsory or conscripted military service?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And did you in fact take some military

13 training; and if so, when was that?

14 A. I served my full term in 1966, 1967, in Nis.

15 Q. All right. And at that particular time the

16 army would be known as the -- of the former Yugoslavia

17 was known as the JNA; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. After you had completed your compulsory

20 military training, sir, what was your occupation?

21 A. For a while I was working in a mine in Maglic

22 for a couple of years, about three to five years. Then

23 I worked in a maintenance shop at Brod, called Ozren,

24 and I was working there until the very beginning of the

25 war.

1 Q. I see. Now, this Maglic you referred to, is

2 that the name of a large company in the Foca area?

3 A. Yes, with a number of plants.

4 Q. And Ozren that you just referred to where you

5 were working in the years prior to the war, what is

6 Ozren?

7 A. Well, Ozren was a catering enterprise, and it

8 also worked like a shop, trades.

9 Q. And did this company, this Ozren company,

10 have any company vehicles, for lack of a better

11 expression?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did you perform any services with respect

14 to those vehicles?

15 A. Well, we serviced them regularly.

16 Q. I take it, sir, that you were an auto

17 mechanic and that was your trade, was it?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. Now, sir, as I understand it, this Ozren

20 you've just told us is in Brod. Can you tell us where

21 Brod is in relation to the town of Foca? Is it close

22 by? Is it far away?

23 A. It's on the way to Scepan Polje, from Foca.

24 It's about three to five kilometres away. That's where

25 Brod is.

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1 Q. And you've told us that you lived in Foca

2 itself; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Does Foca have certain neighbourhoods that

5 are referred to within the town of Foca? In other

6 words, was there a particular neighbourhood that you

7 would say that you were associated with, sir?

8 A. Well, yes. We would call it the Mahala.

9 There was Codor Mahala, there was Aladza, there was the

10 centre, there was Gornje Polje, Donje Polje, there was

11 Zukcici, and so on. It was divided up into these

12 districts, boroughs, and I lived at Gornje Polje.

13 Q. Gornje Polje. This area where you lived,

14 sir, was that of mixed ethnicity or was it largely

15 Muslim or largely Serb or other ethnic composition?

16 A. Well, it was a fairly mixed population. More

17 Serbs lived there, but it was mixed.

18 Q. All right. How did you get back and forth to

19 work from Gornje Polje to Brod? Did you take a car,

20 did you use a bicycle, or was there some transportation

21 service laid on by the company you worked for?

22 A. We had our own bus for workers to take us to

23 and from work. In exceptional cases, people would use

24 their own private cars.

25 Q. I'm going to ask you now, sir, to focus your

1 attention to a few days prior to the outbreak of war in

2 Foca. In particular, I'm going to ask you to think

3 about the morning of the 5th of April, 1992. Do you

4 remember whether or not you were on your way to work

5 that day as usual; and if so, if something happened?

6 A. Yes. In the course of the night between the

7 4th and 5th, a group of people tried to organise a

8 rally which they called a rally for peace, and I almost

9 joined the rally. But when the time for the rally

10 came, I went home to prepare for work. And when I went

11 back down there -- to change my clothes. And when I

12 got back there, my colleagues were already there,

13 because the bus couldn't go past the municipality

14 building, because the rally had in fact already

15 started. So I wasn't able to go to work on that

16 particular day.

17 Q. Just so that I'm clear and understanding what

18 you just told us, was it your intention to go to work,

19 but the bus couldn't get through this rally, is that

20 it, so you couldn't go, or did I misunderstand?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. Oh, I see.

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. And as a result of that, what did you do, if

25 you did not go to work?

1 A. Well, because I couldn't go to work, I stayed

2 at the meeting for a while, at the rally for a while,

3 and observed what was happening, listening to the

4 presentations made by one and by the others. And I

5 noticed at the rally that there were very few Serbs

6 coming to it, that it was the Muslims that had gathered

7 at the rally. And a little further off, a little

8 lower, near the square and the department store, there

9 were rather a lot of people of the Serb nationality in

10 groups, but they didn't actually come to the rally.

11 And this could be noted by anybody, which meant that

12 they did not agree to this rally for peace, this

13 communal rally.

14 Q. Perhaps I should ask you a couple of

15 preliminary questions at this point, sir. Prior to the

16 outbreak of the war, shall we say a year or so before,

17 say 1990, two years before, can you tell us about the

18 relations between the Serbs and the Muslims in the Foca

19 municipality, to your knowledge? What were

20 relationships like?

21 A. Well, we could say that the three or four

22 years prior to that, relationships were very good, but

23 then later on they began to be upset a little bit and

24 they tried to do these things through the rallies.

25 Now, whether these rallies were organised or not, but

1 in the Miljevina mine, rallies were -- they tried to

2 make rallies, and rallies in Maglic itself; they tried

3 to organise them there too. So that the consequences

4 of this was ethnic tension. So that this reached a

5 peak with the division of the workers in a strike in

6 the Focatrans company. So that this was really on an

7 ethnic basis, and Focatrans came split into two

8 factions. That's as far as that's concerned.

9 Q. I see. Now, you say that this was a peace

10 rally. Did they actually call it a peace rally that

11 was being called that day?

12 A. Yes, that was what it was called. The rally

13 was called that.

14 Q. In the days leading up to the 5th of April

15 when this peace rally was to be held, was there any

16 apparent need to have a peace rally? In other words,

17 was there talk of some other state, other than peace,

18 prior to the 5th of April?

19 A. On the 4th, I and several other people were

20 sitting around in the Bor Cafe and its garden, and

21 people began to come into the cafe. And I came to the

22 door and noticed Television Sarajevo filming the

23 beginning of the war in Sarajevo almost; an old man

24 with a stick walking along the middle of the road, and

25 from the other side there was shooting. And when we

1 saw this, it was clear to us that war was in the air.

2 And they sort of tried to prevent the outbreak of a

3 war, but nothing came of that attempt.

4 Q. So if I understand you correctly, there was

5 already concern that war was breaking out around you,

6 and the peace rally was to avoid the war coming to

7 Foca?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. I see. Now, without getting into any details

10 of what went on at the peace rally, sir, I just want to

11 ask you a couple of other questions.

12 You say you lived in a mixed neighbourhood in

13 Gornje Polje. I take it -- I'm sorry. Your ethnicity

14 is what, sir? You're a Muslim?

15 A. I'm a Muslim.

16 Q. Do you have a lot of Serb neighbours?

17 A. In the building I lived in, the building had

18 24 flats. Of those 24, eight were Muslim owned and the

19 rest were apartments owned by Serbs. And it's

20 interesting to note -- or whether this is incidental, I

21 don't know, I never noticed that -- but on every floor

22 there was one Muslim and two Serbs.

23 Q. I see. Did you notice anything with respect

24 to what your Serb neighbours were doing in the days

25 leading up to the war? Did they all stay or did some

1 of them leave?

2 A. Well, all this was in the air, there was a

3 presentiment of this. And when I went to the peace

4 rally, I saw that nothing would come of peace, because

5 one nation can't do anything unless the other nation

6 wants it too, so that there was nothing -- that there

7 couldn't be any peace.

8 So I came home, I talked to my wife and to my

9 children, and in the meantime I looked out of the

10 window, and there's a shop that you can see from the

11 window, and I saw several Serbs packing their children

12 into cars and taking them off already. And I began to

13 panic, I felt panic, because I saw how people were

14 behaving, I saw that children were being packed off

15 somewhere, and I thought, well, there's nothing left

16 for me to do but to do something myself. And so I

17 packed my things and started out towards Ilidza.

18 Q. Do I take it, sir, that you were packing your

19 family off and evacuating Foca as a precautionary

20 measure?

21 A. That's exactly right, yes.

22 Q. Where did you go?

23 A. I went to Jelec, where I was born.

24 Q. Was that the same day after you had attended

25 the peace rally on the 5th of April, 1992?

1 A. Yes, in the afternoon.

2 Q. Just because I don't know where Jelec is,

3 perhaps you can tell us how far that is away from Foca

4 and if there is any other larger community that it

5 might be near.

6 A. Well, from Foca towards Miljevina, if you

7 take the old railroad and use that road, you come to

8 Miljevina, which is about 18 kilometres away. And then

9 there's another two kilometres if you take the

10 left-hand turn from that road towards Jelec, which is

11 about 22 kilometres.

12 Q. So about 22-some-odd kilometres from Foca and

13 just a few kilometres from Miljevina?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. That assists.

16 A. From Miljevina, yes.

17 Q. Now, I believe you've told us that you were

18 married. You had one child before you moved to Foca

19 and one child while you lived in Foca. So did you take

20 both your wife and your two children with you to Jelec?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And how old were your children at that time?

23 A. My son was 21 years old at the time, and my

24 daughter, perhaps 18. She was supposed to graduate and

25 become a machine engineer.

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1 Q. I see. And so you and your family, in fact,

2 went to Jelec, and did you continue working in Brod?

3 A. Yes, straightaway the next day on the 6th. I

4 didn't go with my own car but I went with the bus,

5 municipal bus, and I worked that day.

6 But I was a little surprised, when I turned

7 up at my workplace, that there were a lot of Serbs, my

8 colleagues, and there would always be more of them than

9 the Muslims, but many of them were absent that day, so

10 that Simo Filipovic, who was my foreman, gave me Drasko

11 Novica's work to do, my colleague's work, to do the

12 work instead of him.

13 Q. That was still auto mechanic work, was it,

14 sir?

15 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

16 Q. And did you complete your shift that day and

17 go back to your family in Jelec?

18 A. Yes, I completed my shift and went back to

19 Jelec by bus.

20 Q. How about the following day, the 7th of

21 April, 1992?

22 A. The next day, I was also ready to go to

23 work. But in the Carsija, in the centre of town --

24 it's a small place, but in the centre, which we call

25 Carsija, there was a bus there. There were two shops

1 and a cafe, and that's why we call it the Carsija.

2 Lots of people were waiting for the bus there.

3 However, the bus never turned up, and so some of them

4 went off on their own but saw that there was some

5 barricades, there was a barricade on the road which

6 prevented the bus from reaching them, and that's why we

7 didn't go to work that day.

8 Q. Are you aware, either then or now, as to who

9 set up the barricade or why?

10 A. Well, some people from Miljevina came on

11 foot, and during the night -- I think that particular

12 night it was -- Pero Elez and some other people, I

13 don't know who they were, but he attacked the police

14 station where there were Muslim policemen there, and

15 they disarmed them and then took over this police

16 station.

17 Q. Just so that I'm clear, at that point do I

18 understand that the police station at Miljevina was

19 manned by policemen of mixed ethnicity, both Serbs and

20 Muslims?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And who is Pero Elez?

23 A. Pero Elez was a one-time worker. He was a

24 guard in the corrections centre, and I think he retired

25 later on. He retired early, probably for health

1 reasons and psychological reasons.

2 Q. In any event, sir, it was reported to you

3 that Pero Elez and some others attacked the police

4 station; did I get that correct? They attacked the

5 police station in Miljevina and took over?

6 A. Yes, yes. You're quite right, yes,

7 completely.

8 Q. When you say "took over", does that mean that

9 he then controlled the police station in Miljevina; is

10 that what you mean when you say "took over"?

11 A. Well, yes, that's how you should understand

12 it.

13 Q. So the people left running the police station

14 in Miljevina, were there any Muslims left among them or

15 were they now all Serbs?

16 A. As soon as the police station was taken over,

17 they disarmed the Muslims and the Muslims no longer had

18 anything to do there.

19 Q. How long did you stay in Jelec, sir?

20 A. I stayed in Jelec -- well, I'm not quite

21 certain, but whether it was the 29th or 30th of April,

22 one of those two days. But I think it was probably the

23 30th of April rather than the 29th.

24 Q. During that time, did you continue to commute

25 back and forth from Jelec to Brod to go to work?

1 A. I didn't understand your question.

2 Q. Between the 5th of April and the 30th of

3 April, if that's the date, you say that you stayed in

4 Jelec. You went to work on the 6th of April, but on

5 the 7th, you couldn't get through. Thereafter, after

6 the 7th, did you continue to go back and forth to Brod

7 or not, and if not, why not?

8 A. No. Until the 25th of April -- that is to

9 say, 29th or 30th of April, I didn't go towards Foca or

10 Brod because there was a barricade with ramps in front

11 of the motel, and nobody was allowed to cross. There

12 was no passage.

13 Q. Did something happen around the 8th of April

14 in relation to Foca that you could hear or heard about

15 from where you were in Jelec?

16 A. As we weren't able to go anywhere, what

17 civilian population there was, they tried to secure the

18 main roads so that there would not be all this chaos.

19 But later on we heard explosions and fighting coming

20 from the direction of Foca, and this made us even more

21 scared.

22 Q. Did you have access to radio or television at

23 all when you were in Jelec?

24 A. Well, for a short time, but later on this was

25 cut off, and the telephone lines as well were cut off.

1 We could have communication via the radio for a time,

2 that sort of thing.

3 Q. Did you hear, via the TV or radio, when it

4 was available, that there had been fighting in Foca?

5 A. Yes, we did, over the radio, and we saw a few

6 images on television. We saw some parts of the old

7 square above the marketplace, and a section of Donje

8 Polje was shown. And above the high-rise buildings,

9 how houses were burning, we were able to see that on

10 television.

11 Q. How familiar were you with the images shown

12 on the television? Did you know the neighbourhoods

13 that were being shown on television?

14 A. Yes, of course, very well.

15 Q. Could you tell what kind of places were being

16 destroyed or burned?

17 A. Well, it was systematically being destroyed.

18 It wasn't destroyed on one occasion, it was systematic;

19 today, a few houses; tomorrow, a few others. And

20 probably most of this happened during that particular

21 night when I came back, and that is why I can say that

22 this was perhaps the 30th of April, because almost a

23 quarter of Foca was ablaze that night. And it is

24 traditional for us, before the 1st of May, to collect

25 firewood and timber and light fires prior to the 1st of

1 May, so this was probably these 1st of May burnings at

2 the Muslim houses, bonfires.

3 Q. You say "Muslim houses". Could you tell if

4 it were Muslim houses that were being burned or any

5 Serb houses being burned?

6 A. They were quite definitely Muslim.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Needless to say, Your Honour,

8 I have a number of other questions. I have just

9 started. I wonder whether this, however, would be an

10 appropriate time for the break.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it is time for the lunch

12 break. We shall continue this afternoon at 1430

13 hours.

14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are continuing with

3 the examination-in-chief.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Now, Witness -- excuse me. Witness, I think

6 just before the break I was about to ask you whether

7 while you were at Jelec any soldiers or anyone came to

8 your home between the 5th of April and the 30th of

9 April. Perhaps I can rephrase my question. Are you

10 aware whether there was any demand made upon the

11 citizens of Jelec, in particular the Muslim families,

12 with respect to the surrendering of weapons?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us about that?

15 A. Two or three persons came, and they met at

16 the cafe owned by Hadzimuratovic, and that is where the

17 negotiations went on regarding the surrender of

18 weapons. "If you surrender your weapons, you won't be

19 attacked," and words to that effect were exchanged.

20 Q. By whom was this communicated? I know you

21 mentioned a name, that two or three people came. Do

22 you know who they represented, what group or body they

23 represented?

24 A. I really don't know what their role was, as

25 citizens, whether -- they were from Miljevina and

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1 Ratine, but what their role was or what their function

2 was, I really couldn't say.

3 Q. Do you know what their ethnicity was?

4 A. They were exclusively of Serb ethnicity.

5 Q. As a result of those discussions -- and I

6 believe you actually used the words "negotiations" --

7 what, if anything, did the Muslim families of the

8 community do, to the best of your knowledge?

9 A. Simply, there was an ultimatum. The demand

10 was that weapons be surrendered and no consequences

11 would be incurred. However, it was established that

12 before the attack, before Jelec, we know the

13 consequences suffered by those places. And then the

14 people decided what little weapons they had, a few

15 rifles from the reserve police force and small arms and

16 hunting weapons, the decision was taken not to

17 surrender those weapons.

18 Q. When you say, sir, that you were aware of the

19 consequences of other places, are you speaking about

20 other villages in the Foca vicinity prior to what

21 happened in Jelec?

22 A. We could notice, looking through binoculars

23 from a height called Radava, that houses were burning

24 in Kozja Luka, so we realised that the same would

25 happen in Jelec.

1 Q. And being forearmed with that information, I

2 take it the decision was made not to surrender the

3 weapons; is that correct?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Sir, I believe you told us that you in fact

6 left Jelec and you went back to Foca on or about the

7 30th of April. Can you tell us why that happened?

8 A. That happened after a few rounds of those

9 negotiations, and I knew that nothing would come of

10 them, that they were falling apart and that chaos would

11 ensue. In the meantime, my wife fell ill. She had

12 tonsillitis. And I was forced to avoid the conflict

13 and at the same time to save my wife.

14 Q. So where did you decide to go?

15 A. At first we hesitated. We didn't know

16 whether we should go towards Kalinovik, where the Serbs

17 were in a majority, or towards Sarajevo. That was

18 rather far removed, and the fighting had already

19 started in Sarajevo. So in the end I decided,

20 considering myself to be a moderate citizen, that it

21 would be best for me to go back to my own apartment.

22 Q. And your own apartment was in Foca?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was there anything else by the way of

25 assurances that you had heard about that factored into

1 your decision to return to Foca?

2 A. Among other things, there were appeals over

3 the media to the effect that Muslim workers of various

4 work organisations, various companies, could come back

5 to work, and this contributed to my making this

6 decision.

7 Q. As far as you were aware, was the war in

8 Foca, if we call it that, was the war in Foca over by

9 then?

10 A. The war, as far as the town itself is

11 concerned, was over, but there was a very high

12 concentration of men and weapons in town wearing

13 various uniforms.

14 Q. By "various uniforms", were any of those

15 Muslims?

16 A. No. There were no Muslims there, because

17 those who put up some little resistance had probably

18 withdrawn, so only the civilian population was left.

19 Q. I see. You may have skipped ahead a little

20 further than I wanted, but let's deal with it now since

21 you've raised it. You said you saw a number of

22 different kinds of uniforms. With as much detail as

23 you can remember, sir, are you able to describe for

24 this Court what kinds of uniforms you saw and where

25 these people came from, if you know?

1 A. There were different uniforms, from the

2 ordinary, regular olive-grey military uniforms, then

3 camouflage uniforms; then strangely uniformed people

4 with gloves on their hands and the fingers cut off of

5 the gloves; with scarves on their heads, bandannas,

6 hats. And a host of these soldiers that I didn't

7 know. And after I got into my flat, I knew

8 immediately, (redacted), told

9 me that they had come from Serbia, the White Eagles,

10 and that probably that was the group of people whom I

11 could not recognise.

12 Q. All right. I'm going to back you up a little

13 bit to the point where you're leaving Jelec and you're

14 on the way to Foca. En route, did something happen?

15 Did you stop somewhere or were you stopped somewhere?

16 A. Yes. The previous barricade had been

17 removed, so one could pass by it, and we started off.

18 But then there was an obstacle near the hotel at

19 Miljevina and it was not possible to pass there, that

20 checkpoint. I was stopped, and another family, Smail

21 Tuzluk, was following me with his family. And Pavle

22 Elez approached me, a man I knew very well. He called

23 me to come out of the car.

24 Q. How was he dressed?

25 A. He was dressed in a camouflage uniform, and

1 on the left-hand side he already had a tricolour of the

2 Republika Srpska attached.

3 And he called me to go to the motel. At the

4 very entrance to the motel where the reception desk

5 used to be, there were quite a number of men in uniform

6 and a pile of boxes -- piles of boxes of ammunition.

7 And what I remember particularly well, there were a

8 large number of long boxes, and that is where I also

9 recognised my colleague, Novak Stankovic, who was also

10 in uniform.

11 They asked me, "Where are you going?" and,

12 "How are you?" and that sort of thing, and I said I

13 was going back to my apartment, my wife was sick. Then

14 the second question was, "Do you have any weapons?" I

15 said, "You can look, you can search." They followed

16 me. I opened the boot of the car, and when they saw

17 there were only things there, they told me to close the

18 boot and they said, "You can go now. Good luck." That

19 was the encounter I had there at the motel.

20 Q. I have a few questions about your encounter

21 at the motel, sir.

22 These boxes that you refer to, was there any

23 writing on them or did you recognise what was inside of

24 them from previous experience?

25 A. When I did my military service -- it is still

1 difficult for me to tell what was held inside those

2 boxes, but it seemed to me that they probably held

3 weapons because they were painted in olive-green and

4 the inscriptions were in Cyrillic script, and the JNA

5 used the Cyrillic script for those inscriptions on

6 boxes of weapons.

7 Q. And from your personal knowledge when you

8 were in military service, had you ever seen weapons in

9 boxes like that before?

10 A. I can tell you that I hadn't seen boxes that

11 long during my military service.

12 Q. You talked about the insignia of the

13 Republika Srpska, and you said there was three

14 colours. What were those colours?

15 A. White, red, and blue. But just now, to tell

16 you the honest truth, I'm not quite certain of the

17 order. I was in such a panic then, because I was

18 rather taken aback at the very outset when I saw this.

19 Q. Had you seen the insignia or the tricolour of

20 the Republika Srpska prior to that occasion?

21 A. It had already been hoisted at the motel,

22 the tricolour.

23 Q. But I gather that was a rather new

24 development, because prior to that the JNA had

25 different colours. Is that correct?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. These other soldiers that you say apart from

3 a former colleague -- I take it this is the colleague

4 who you used to work with at your auto mechanic job.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. These other soldiers, were they in similar

7 uniforms or different uniforms, the ones at Miljevina?

8 A. I think there were some people from the

9 outside, a couple of them. They were wearing better

10 uniforms.

11 Q. All right. Let's move now to the entrance to

12 Foca. Were you stopped again before you got to your

13 apartment?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. By whom?

16 A. Crossing the Drina bridge leading into the

17 centre of town, I was stopped by a policeman on duty

18 belonging to the reserve force, wearing a blue uniform

19 and a beret on his head, and he also wore the tricolour

20 insignia, and he asked me for my documents. I gave him

21 my documents. He looked at them, asked me where I was

22 going. I said that, "Here is where I live." He gave

23 me back those documents and said, "Good luck to you."

24 Q. All right. On the way into town, would you

25 have passed through Brod?

1 A. Not through Brod, but close to Brod.

2 Q. From the area close to Brod to Foca, did you

3 notice anything about Foca itself that was different

4 from when you had left it on the 5th of April?

5 A. One could immediately notice certain changes,

6 the ruins, certain buildings burnt down; not all of

7 them at once, but some buildings had already been

8 torched.

9 Q. You've told us a little bit earlier about the

10 presence of various types of soldiers in Foca. You've

11 told us, sir, about -- I believe you used the White

12 Eagles as one of the groups that you thought you

13 recognised. Is that correct?

14 A. I noticed people from the outside wearing

15 special uniforms, and then my neighbours -- when I

16 reached my flat, when I saw that it had been broken

17 into, I didn't dare to go in because there was a chain

18 and lock at the door. I went to my neighbours and

19 asked them what had happened, and they told me that the

20 White Eagles had been there, and they confirmed the

21 presence of the White Eagles in Foca at the very

22 outbreak of the war.

23 Q. Sir, do you know whether there were any

24 soldiers from, say, Montenegro in Foca upon your

25 re-entry?

1 A. Later, I established there was some from

2 Montenegro and from Serbia, I think even from Novi

3 Sad. I would come across them going to my company,

4 going to Miljevina. In fact, I even talked to some of

5 them.

6 Q. All right. We'll now get to the point, sir,

7 where you actually get to your apartment in Foca,

8 having gone through a couple of roadblocks, and I think

9 you've already alluded to the fact that when you got

10 there, you didn't dare enter your apartment because

11 there was a lock on the door. Pick up the story from

12 there, if you would.

13 A. At the very entrance, I noticed that the

14 situation wasn't normal. The door was not locked in

15 the normal manner. There was a chain on the door and a

16 lock on the chain. And then I immediately realised

17 what had happened. For a moment I thought maybe it had

18 been mined or something, so I didn't dare approach the

19 door. I went downstairs to my neighbour's and the

20 Perovici couple came out, and they told me that they

21 had closed the apartment after it had been searched by

22 the White Eagles. And they unlocked the lock for me,

23 and when I entered, there was general chaos inside

24 everywhere.

25 They especially searched through the

1 documents. Because my daughter was going to secondary

2 school and my son had already started university, all

3 these things had been looked through and searched,

4 certain receipts for utilities and all these things.

5 Almost each and every receipt had been looked at and

6 thrown into the wash basin. The living room had been

7 searched as well as the bedroom, and at first glance we

8 could see that a video recorder, two or three watches,

9 a rather expensive set of pens, had been taken away.

10 Q. So items were also missing from your

11 apartment when you returned; that's what you've told

12 us?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know, from subsequent conversation

15 with your neighbours, whether your apartment was the

16 only one in that block that had been searched?

17 A. No. Every flat of Muslims had been searched

18 in detail, whereas the Serb flats had been searched

19 only superficially. They would come in and ask a few

20 questions. Whether those questions were meant to see

21 whether there were any Muslims inside, I can't tell.

22 But it was the Muslim apartments that were searched in

23 detail, and the Serb ones only superficially.

24 Q. I'm going to ask you now, sir, to turn your

25 mind to the time between the 30th of April, when you

1 returned to your apartment, and the 25th of May. We'll

2 get to the 25th of May later. During that period of

3 time, were you free to move about as you chose?

4 A. Until the day I entered the building, there

5 was no way out for me or my son. My daughter could go

6 out a little with my wife, but for the two of us, we

7 didn't go out anymore because the town was full. Every

8 street, every facility, was full of soldiers or

9 para-soldiers with weapons, so our lives were at risk.

10 Q. Were there any announcements or did you hear

11 any orders being conveyed to the Muslim men about

12 certain rules being in effect?

13 A. Yes, yes, yes. A couple of times, vehicles

14 with loudspeakers would circulate around town,

15 announcing that Muslims mustn't leave the town or go

16 into the centre, that they should not assemble. Those

17 were the kind of announcements heard on the loudspeaker

18 mounted on a police vehicle.

19 Q. What was the effect of these rules that you

20 had heard announced on these loudspeakers? How did it

21 affect you and your family?

22 A. What it seemed to us was that we were really

23 under house arrest. All we could do was wait for

24 somebody to come and pick us up, that was all.

25 Q. While you were waiting, in other words,

1 between the 30th of April and the 25th of May, were you

2 able to see or hear what was going on in your immediate

3 neighbourhood or vicinity in relation to, say, Muslim

4 houses?

5 A. One could peep behind the curtain to watch

6 what was happening. What I was able to see was a part

7 of town towards Gornje Polje, and there was systematic

8 torching of Muslim houses, and this torching would take

9 place in the evening. Before that, in most cases,

10 vehicles would come up and then that evening the houses

11 would be set on fire. But before that, there would be

12 very strong bursts of fire. It was probably meant for

13 intimidation purposes so that people would pull down

14 their curtains and the lights would be switched off so

15 nobody would see what was going on.

16 Q. Just for clarification, when you say "bursts

17 of fire", are you talking about the kind of fire that

18 destroys wood or are you talking about gunfire?

19 A. Gunfire, from automatic weapons.

20 Q. I see. Were there any fire engines

21 accompanying these blazes?

22 A. The firemen would come before the gunfire

23 started, so the preparations would be made, probably to

24 protect one while the other was burning.

25 Q. Were there Muslim houses mixed in with the

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1 Serb houses?

2 A. There were. There were even houses literally

3 next to one another, stuck to one another.

4 Q. And could you see what the fire engines were

5 doing with respect to the various houses that were

6 ablaze next door to, say, Serb houses?

7 A. They protected the Serb house by spraying it,

8 so as to avoid it getting on fire as well.

9 Q. Sir, I believe you told us that you left

10 Jelec on the 30th of April for a number of reasons.

11 One of the reasons was that your wife was ill and the

12 other one was that you were concerned something might

13 happen to Jelec, much as it did to the surrounding

14 villages. Did something in fact happen to your village

15 shortly after you left?

16 A. Yes. Almost immediately after I left, four

17 or five days later, Jelec was attacked, was fiercely

18 attacked, so that the people who had some weapons did

19 not put up any resistance but retreated into the

20 woods. So that the Serb units that were attacking

21 Jelec entered without having to fire a shot, more or

22 less, and as they entered they started torching.

23 And one team, I don't know which one -- there

24 are two rivers passing through Jelec, Krupica and

25 another one. The people who were coming down the

1 Krupica River committed quite a number of crimes,

2 whereas the other group coming down Govza, they simply

3 rounded up the people and took them to camps. And the

4 efendija, the former efendija of Jelec, his throat was

5 slit.

6 Everything else that happened along the

7 Krupica River, there were a large number of casualties

8 there. The blazing of a stable in Ratine, I don't know

9 how many people. Then Srnje, five of them. I don't

10 know how many sons there were. Then near my weekend

11 home, eight people. Out of the eight, one survived the

12 execution, seven were executed. Not to mention Ibrahim

13 Kurtovic, Ejub Sljivo and there are others whose names

14 I cannot recall now.

15 Q. Rather than get into elaborate detail, let me

16 ask you a couple of personal questions, if I may, sir.

17 When you lived in Jelec with your family from that

18 period from the 5th of April to the 30th of April, did

19 you live with your parents, with your mother?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when you left on the 30th of April, was

22 your mother still in Jelec?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you find out what happened to your mother

25 on the 4th of May, 1992?

1 A. Well, on the 4th of April, that is to say,

2 between the 4th and 5th of April, I heard over Radio

3 Sarajevo -- I was listening to the broadcast, and they

4 were talking about an attack on Jelec, and Radio

5 Sarajevo had just dictated the names and surnames of

6 those who had been killed in Srnje, and my mother and

7 the other six individuals.

8 Q. You heard on the radio that your mother had

9 been killed, along with six other individuals. And I

10 believe you said the 4th of April. My question was

11 about the 4th of May. Did you intend April or did you

12 intend May?

13 A. Well, that's an absurdity. I meant May.

14 Q. Thank you. These six others that you say

15 were found dead near your weekend home, were they

16 relatives of yours as well?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you learn further details about what

19 occurred, apart from what you heard on Radio Sarajevo,

20 at some later time when you were detained at KP Dom?

21 A. Well, yes. I learnt about that later on,

22 when the people who were brought in from Jelec came,

23 when they were taken to Kalinovik, and from Kalinovik

24 transferred to Bileca, and once again returned to

25 Kalinovik from Bileca and then returned to the KP Dom.

1 I learned a little more about the details of what had

2 happened from them.

3 Q. But you learned of the fact of your mother's

4 and your relatives' death over the radio broadcast; is

5 that correct? All right. I want to move on now,

6 sir --

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. My apologies. I want to move on now, sir, to

9 the 25th of May, 1992. I understand that that was the

10 beginning of a new episode in your life; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell us, sir, what happened on the

14 25th of May, 1992 that ultimately brought you to Court

15 today?

16 A. As we did not go out, on the 25th of May, in

17 the morning -- it was perhaps 9.00 or 10.00 --

18 Mr. Zoran Vukovic came with three others, other armed

19 individuals. I opened the door. We said hello,

20 because we know each other, and I told them to come

21 in. He asked me, "Who is there in the house with you?"

22 Because he said such-and-such a thing is going on. And

23 I said, "Nobody. Just my family." And he said that I

24 was to make a statement, me and my son.

25 I then went to put some clothes on and

1 collect up some things. They brought another piece of

2 paper, but I didn't look at that paper. Later on my

3 wife, when we met again later, she told me that that

4 particular piece of paper was given to her. If

5 somebody should come by, that she should show the paper

6 and that it had -- the paper was signed by Brano

7 Cosovic. It had his signature on it. They sat around

8 for a bit and then the two of them left for Tapac [as

9 interpreted], Izet Tapac and his father.

10 When we all got ready -- and we had two

11 vehicles, the four of them and the four of us -- we

12 went to the KP Dom.

13 Q. I'm going to stop you there and back up a

14 little bit if I may. You mentioned -- one of the first

15 names you mentioned was a man called Zoran Vukovic. I

16 think you said you knew him from before; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. How did you know him, and how long? And tell

20 us a little bit about how you were familiar with Zoran

21 Vukovic.

22 A. Well, Foca is a small town. That's one

23 thing. And second, it was sort of circumstance. He

24 worked in the Maglic firm for a time and used some of

25 the vehicles of the Maglic firm, and he would come up

1 to have his car serviced and looked at, to my

2 particular car service, so that's where we got to know

3 each other. Because I had the reputation of being a

4 good mechanic and everybody liked me to see to their

5 cars, if possible, and that's how we got to know each

6 other. We met that way.

7 Q. Zoran Vukovic that came to arrest you, sir,

8 are you able to describe him for us?

9 A. Yes. He has fair hair, light eyes, not too

10 strongly built. That kind. Normal build.

11 Q. Would you recognise Zoran Vukovic that

12 arrested you if you were to see him again?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I'd like you to look around the courtroom

15 today, sir, and do you see that individual in the

16 courtroom today, the person you just told us about?

17 A. Yes. He's here.

18 Q. Could you tell us where he is in the

19 courtroom in relation to where he may be seated?

20 A. Right next to the policeman.

21 Q. All right. Perhaps you could tell us. Are

22 you referring to the back wall there where there are

23 three uniformed security officers in blue shirts?

24 A. Yes. He's in the last row, the back row.

25 Q. All right. And looking from the right, that

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1 would be the side closest to the windows, counting

2 persons from right to left, what seat is he in?

3 A. Number 2.

4 Q. So second from the end on the right, nearest

5 the window; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: For the record, might the

8 record reflect that the witness has identified

9 Mr. Zoran Vukovic, the accused in these proceedings.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Was Mr. Vukovic alone that

12 particular day? I believe you said he was with someone

13 else. Did you know the other individual or individuals

14 who accompanied him that morning?

15 A. That morning, as far as I was able to see,

16 there was Pipovic, Zelja, and I wasn't able to

17 recognise the fourth person.

18 Q. And if I can just summarise, do I understand

19 what you said earlier is that after they had their

20 discussions with you, they went to go and look for

21 somebody else? Was that some of your neighbours in

22 either that same apartment block or a different

23 apartment block?

24 A. In the neighbouring building, a father and

25 son again.

1 Q. And are you aware whether in fact they

2 collected that father and son and brought all four of

3 you together?

4 A. Yes. We were taken off together in two cars.

5 Q. How were you taken, and where were you taken?

6 A. Two by two in the car, and the direction was

7 the KP Dom.

8 Q. I believe you told us earlier that you had a

9 son who was at that time 21 years old and had just

10 started university; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. He was taken along with you? And were you in

13 a vehicle transported by Mr. Vukovic or someone else?

14 A. I think -- I'm not quite sure, but I think I

15 was taken away with Zoran.

16 Q. On route to KP Dom, did you pass through the

17 centre of town?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you see any soldiers or was there

20 anything going on in the centre of town? You had been

21 told to stay away from that area. Did you notice

22 anything as you went through?

23 A. Well, Foca is always full of people. The

24 town of Foca is always teeming with people, so it's

25 quite normal to see armed people as well.

1 Q. Were there armed people there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were they in uniform?

4 A. Of course.

5 Q. What happened when you got to KP Dom?

6 A. When we came to the KP Dom itself, in front

7 of the KP Dom was somebody I knew very well,

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted) They were such close friends

11 that they all but slept together. And when he saw us

12 coming out of the vehicle, he just looked at us and

13 went into the administrative building.

14 Q. And once you were at KP Dom did you see Zoran

15 Vukovic again?

16 A. Zoran Vukovic escorted us to this room where

17 they searched us. They didn't --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter apologises. In

19 the search room.

20 MR. RYNEVELD:

21 Q. All right. Now, I neglected to ask you

22 earlier, but I'll ask it now. How was Mr. Vukovic,

23 Zoran Vukovic, dressed? Was he in uniform?

24 A. Uniform, yes. Camouflage uniform.

25 Q. Did he have any weapons with him?

1 A. Yes. Automatic weapons.

2 Q. Could you tell from his uniform what position

3 he held or what his rank was or what kind of military

4 uniform it may have been?

5 A. I can't say really. I don't know.

6 Q. So you were taken to the search room, and

7 ultimately, sir, were you taken somewhere else after

8 you went through the, shall we say, booking-in

9 procedures?

10 A. In this reception section, we were searched

11 by Burilo, who was known as Busi, to see whether we had

12 anything in our pockets that we shouldn't have. He

13 found two packets of cigarettes on me, but he didn't

14 confiscate them. He returned them to me. And after

15 that, when he had searched all four of us, Zoran said

16 that we should go into room number 16, and when the

17 door opened we were taken off by Slavko Koroman. And

18 that's where we went. We went into that room.

19 Q. And when you got to room number 16, was that

20 a large room?

21 A. Well, the entrance door to room number 16 is

22 where you go in, and you go into a sort of hallway

23 where you can hang your clothes up. On the right-hand

24 side there are several toilets and pissoirs, and then

25 you go into a sort of living room. And from that room,

1 that room leads on to four other rooms, two rooms on

2 each side. On the one side were the larger rooms, on

3 the other side there were the smaller rooms, and that

4 is generally known as room 16.

5 Q. Sir, I understand you are able to give us a

6 great deal of detail of what happened at KP Dom, but

7 I'm not going to ask you those questions at this time.

8 That may be at another time, sir. But I'm going to ask

9 you a couple of general questions about your stay at

10 KP Dom at this time, if I may.

11 You were booked in on the 25th of May, 1992.

12 When did you leave the institution, like ultimately

13 leave it? I'm not talking about a trip out.

14 A. On the 5th of October, 1994. But they took

15 us to Kula, and the Red Cross made a list of our names

16 there and then took us off to the Brotherhood in Unity

17 Bridge, where the exchange did not succeed. So we were

18 returned once again to Miljevina.

19 Q. You ultimately left later that month in

20 October, did you?

21 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

22 Q. In round figures, sir, am I to understand

23 that you were at KP Dom for approximately two and a

24 half years from the 25th of May, 1992, until sometime

25 in October of 1994?

1 A. [No interpretation]

2 Q. While you were there, sir, had you been

3 charged with any offence, to your knowledge?

4 A. When they took me to these interviews,

5 interrogations actually, nobody actually interviewed me

6 on anything, so I wasn't charged with anything. And

7 probably they didn't have anything to charge me with.

8 Q. KP Dom had been a penitentiary in Foca prior

9 to the outbreak of war?

10 A. Yes, but the KP Dom was a camp.

11 Q. My question was going to be: Were you given

12 any explanation, why you were kept at KP Dom for two

13 and a half years?

14 A. No, they never gave me any explanations. But

15 it was quite clear to me that it was only because I was

16 a Muslim. That's my conclusion.

17 Q. At the time, sir, were you a civilian?

18 A. Yes, I was, not only I myself but practically

19 all the others too.

20 Q. That leads to my next question. "All the

21 others." Were there other men like you in that camp?

22 A. I didn't understand your question.

23 Q. Let me rephrase it, if I may. You and your

24 son weren't the only occupants of that camp, I take it.

25 A. No.

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1 Q. Are you able to give us an estimate as to how

2 many Muslim civilian men were kept in that camp while

3 you were there at any one time?

4 A. Well, I couldn't give you an exact figure,

5 but we looked out of the window and would count the

6 number of people being taken to the dining room. We

7 did this without them knowing. But, of course, we

8 could never know how many people were in the solitary

9 confinement cells. But we would say about 550 to 600

10 individuals. That was our rough estimate.

11 Q. And to your knowledge, were they all Muslim

12 men?

13 A. All of them.

14 Q. And from your discussions with your fellow

15 inmates, for lack of a better word, was their situation

16 similar to yours, being picked up and brought there for

17 no apparent reason?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Again, sir, this may not be the time to ask

20 specific details about life at KP Dom, but if you were

21 to summarise for us very, very briefly, what were the

22 conditions like at KP Dom in terms of hygiene, or food,

23 or general treatment?

24 A. Well, there were very, very difficult

25 conditions, difficult days, and we were lucky that we

1 had found some equipment from what the KP Dom inmates

2 used, that is to say, old Gillettes, old T-shirts and

3 some clothing, which came in handy as far as the

4 clothes were concerned, and things for hygiene. This

5 was in very small quantity, but even that was very

6 welcome. Otherwise, we received nothing.

7 The food was very, very bad, was more or less

8 watery stuff with very little bread. I weighed about

9 75 or 76 kilos when I got there. When I was released

10 after 40 days, I weighed myself and I saw that I then

11 weighed 59 kilos. The people who were very fat, who

12 were obese, those people found it even more difficult

13 and deteriorated even faster, and it was terrible to

14 look at somebody who had been fat, and when he lost

15 weight, his skin was all loose and bag-like.

16 Q. Is it fair to assume, sir, that quite apart

17 from the quality of the food that you describe, the

18 quantity was also insufficient?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Sir, while there, were you free to come and

21 go as you chose? It may sound like a dumb question,

22 but I have to ask it.

23 A. Through my own volition, I couldn't cross the

24 threshold of the door, I couldn't go out. Somebody had

25 to open the door for me, because I was locked in under

1 lock and key.

2 Q. Were there any guards?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did they have weapons?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you afraid they would use them?

7 A. Well, at first, yes, because there was a lot

8 of shooting to begin with, particularly in the evening

9 hours underneath our windows. There was a lot of

10 sporadic gunfire and shooting. But later on this

11 subsided, and later on the situation did calm down,

12 after a few months.

13 Q. This was a penitentiary. Were there walls,

14 or wires, or some other means of keeping people in the

15 institution, other than locked doors?

16 A. Yes. It was the classical type of prison

17 with a high wall around it, and on the top of these

18 high walls there would be spikes and barbed wire. And

19 on each of these walls, there would be guardhouses for

20 the duty officers to see that nobody crossed the wall.

21 After our arrival in the KP Dom, after I

22 actually had arrived in the KP Dom, not ten days later

23 a platoon of soldiers came by, and from the inside of

24 the KP Dom to the wall, they laid a minefield. And on

25 one of the windows in the administrative building,

1 there was a sniper nest with -- machine-gun nest, I'm

2 sorry, with sandbags around it.

3 Q. Do I take it, then, that the interior of the

4 wall was also mined so people couldn't get to the wall

5 to climb over it?

6 A. No, they couldn't.

7 Q. So my understanding is correct that it was

8 the inside of the prison yard near the wall that was

9 mined, not the outside?

10 A. Yes. No, not the outside.

11 Q. Yes, just so that I'm clear on that point.

12 Now, sir, you are a mechanic, and you've told

13 us earlier that your abilities to service vehicles

14 appeared to be greatly valued. Did that continue while

15 you were an inmate at KP Dom?

16 A. Yes. After about 40 days, they all --

17 actually, they all knew that I was one of the best in

18 town as far as heavy-duty vehicles are concerned, that

19 I was the best mechanic for them, and so they sent me

20 to that metal department where repairs were done.

21 Q. And what did you do once you got to that

22 metal department? What were you asked to do?

23 A. Well, everything that they needed, from

24 washing the vehicles, to changing tyres, changing the

25 oil, doing repairs, everything, that kind of work.

1 Q. Were you ever paid for doing any work at

2 KP Dom?

3 A. It was compulsory labour. No pay for that.

4 Q. Did it ever occur to you to refuse to do any

5 work?

6 A. Never in my wildest thoughts.

7 Q. Why not?

8 A. Well, probably that would have been my end,

9 had I done so. And before that, there were a number of

10 cases where, for just uttering a word, people were

11 taken off, never to return.

12 Q. I see. Well, sir, while working on these

13 vehicles, did you ever see the Zoran Vukovic that you

14 identified in this courtroom again?

15 A. Yes. He would come to the metal department.

16 Q. Tell us about, say, the first instance when

17 that occurred.

18 A. He would come with a truck owned by Senad

19 Sahinpasic.

20 Q. Do you recognise this truck?

21 A. Yes, in all respects.

22 Q. I take it this Senad Sahinpasic -- was he a

23 Muslim?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How was it that Zoran Vukovic was driving his

1 truck; do you know?

2 A. I don't know. Probably he left it in Foca,

3 he found his truck. Probably that's how he came to

4 have it.

5 Q. In any event, Mr. Vukovic showed up at KP Dom

6 with that vehicle; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you have any conversation with Zoran

9 Vukovic at that time?

10 A. Well, yes, I did, on that occasion. We

11 exchanged a few words, and I told him, "Well, as you

12 brought me here, try and get my wife out." And he

13 said, "She's tried to leave once already, but she

14 didn't succeed." And that's how that story ended.

15 Q. Do you now know what happened to your wife

16 while you were at KP Dom?

17 A. She stayed for a long time, hoping that the

18 problem with the KP Dom would be resolved. But she

19 sent our daughter out with some neighbours earlier on.

20 She was persistent, thinking that this would last a

21 couple of months and that a solution would be found,

22 and I think she was among the last among the Muslims to

23 leave Foca.

24 Q. All right. I'm skipping way ahead, but when

25 did you -- don't tell us where, but when did you next

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1 see your wife and daughter?

2 A. That was in 1995, on the 15th of March.

3 Q. All right. And I take it you saw her then in

4 a foreign country, did you, sir?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Getting back to the workshop, you've told us

7 about the first incident when Mr. Vukovic came with a

8 vehicle. Did any other vehicles arrive at the workshop

9 while you were a mechanic there?

10 A. Vehicles would come belonging to the KP Dom,

11 of course, and then vehicles -- Nusret Mekic's, and an

12 engine was being fitted into this truck, and before the

13 war already it should have been finished in a day or

14 two, and that vehicle came to the KP Dom as well.

15 Q. Did you see any vehicles that appeared to

16 have, shall we say, stolen goods on them?

17 A. Well, this was a vehicle of the KP Dom, a

18 small tamic, a small truck.

19 Q. Yes. Let me rephrase my question. Were you

20 aware that vehicles bringing looted items, stolen

21 items, came to the KP Dom?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Tell us about that.

24 A. Yes. At the outset, Relja Goljanin was head

25 of this metalwork shop, and on a number of occasions --

1 I don't know how many, five or six times -- he would

2 bring our people to collect machinery from Muslim

3 shops. I didn't go there, but I know that they brought

4 them in, and this happened on a number of occasions.

5 And you're also mentioning these goods. He

6 had his own metalworking shop, and he had plenty of

7 that material at home. So this small truck had to go

8 three times to bring these materials from Hanalic, and

9 it was unloaded and stored in the KP Dom.

10 Q. Okay. And this is something that belonged to

11 a Muslim individual; is that what I understand you to

12 be saying?

13 A. Yes, yes, yes.

14 Q. Do you remember anything about a kiosk?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Tell us about that.

17 A. It is a kiosk belonging to my colleague,

18 Fahma Odobasic. He was the overseer in my department,

19 and his house was close to the upper petrol station.

20 And this kiosk had been completed. It was meant to

21 serve as a small shop, this kiosk. And they went to

22 fetch it and load it onto a truck, and it was brought

23 to the KP Dom. It remained there after we were

24 exchanged.

25 Q. All right, sir. I think that you've just

1 given us sort of a very brief summary of some of the

2 things that you were forced to do while you were at

3 KP Dom. Were you ever taken out of KP Dom in order to

4 go to other locations under escort in order to perform

5 your mechanical services?

6 A. Yes, they would take me out into town, but

7 always under escort. If a vehicle would break down,

8 then they would take me to my former company, again

9 under escort, and they would take me to the Miljevina

10 dock coal mine.

11 Q. All right. Tell us about going to

12 Miljevina. Again, Miljevina is the town that you've

13 told us that you had stopped on the way into Foca, so

14 how far away is that from Foca now? About 15

15 kilometres, something like that?

16 A. About 18 kilometres, I think.

17 Q. All right. And so you were taken out of

18 KP Dom under escort and driven to Miljevina?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what were you asked to do when you got

21 there?

22 A. They asked me that I had to service the

23 mechanical equipment for the opencast mine. They

24 wanted to set it in motion, to start it working, and

25 they wanted me to service the equipment, because even

1 before I used to go, when I was employed from my

2 company, to service those vehicles over there.

3 Q. I see. Were you ever paid for that work?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did it ever occur to you to refuse to do

6 that?

7 A. Certainly not.

8 Q. Did you have any choice in the matter at all,

9 sir?

10 A. There was no choice. You had to work or --

11 on one occasion, some people would have a bad stomach

12 because the food would go bad by suppertime, it will go

13 sour, and people with a sensitive stomach would get

14 diarrhoea, and all night people would be losing a lot

15 of liquid. And the next day, they could hardly move.

16 So when we had to go and do forced labour, people would

17 be called out, and then one, two, or three of them

18 would be missing, they couldn't get up. And then

19 somebody would call out, "Give him to me. I'll make

20 him work." You see, regardless of how you felt, you

21 had to go and work.

22 Q. Did you ever see what happened to these

23 people when they were made to work?

24 A. I can only imagine. I didn't see it. They

25 probably went on all fours.

1 Q. How many times were you taken from KP Dom to

2 Miljevina to work?

3 A. I really can't tell you exactly, but roughly

4 three or four times.

5 Q. And on each of those occasions, sir, was it

6 an overnight trip or did you stay for a period of

7 time?

8 A. They took me from the KP Dom. They would

9 take me over, like they would a tool, against a

10 receipt, from the command, and then on the basis of

11 this receipt, I would be released from the KP Dom. And

12 when necessary, I would be kept in Miljevina for as

13 long as I was needed. Or if something went wrong, then

14 they would intervene from the KP Dom, demanding that

15 they brought me back. I sometimes stayed 20, 25 days,

16 sometimes even over a month. They kept me there in the

17 police station. Somebody would always come to pick me

18 up and somebody had to take me back.

19 Q. Were you kept in the cells at the police

20 station over night?

21 A. Well, no. They kept me in a room, where

22 there was a couch. But I think it was, after all,

23 intentional, because my child was in the KP Dom, so I

24 didn't dare try anything. And when our forces held

25 Rogoj, they didn't shut me up. I could have left

1 through the window. I might have even been able to

2 reach Rogoj. But --

3 Q. But you didn't go why?

4 A. There was my son there, who was kept as a

5 kind of guarantee.

6 Q. I understand. Sir, while you were at

7 Miljevina, did you have an opportunity to notice what

8 was going on in the Miljevina town or in the Miljevina

9 area, say at the motel?

10 A. When I went to Miljevina, the fighting had

11 somehow moved away, because that was the 3rd of

12 December when I was taken there for the first time.

13 One could just notice the Serb population bringing in

14 looted goods from various places, that sort of thing.

15 Q. How about the makeup of the police at

16 Miljevina? You earlier told us about Pero Elez and his

17 group taking over the police station and getting rid of

18 the Muslim police. Did you see Pero Elez or any of his

19 men in Miljevina after that?

20 A. I was brought there on the 3rd of December,

21 1992. Pero Elez is someone I saw only that night.

22 When Pero brought me in the afternoon, then in the

23 evening Pero came back again, one of the Samardzic's

24 and Pero. They were carrying two beers and a plateful

25 of roast meat. He knows me very, very well. We were

1 close. He asked me, "Where is your family?" He

2 offered me some food to eat. I said I really couldn't

3 eat, I couldn't drink. He was very fat. He had quite

4 a big beard already. And he wore a Montenegrin cap

5 with a tassel. And of course he had weapons on him

6 too.

7 After that I never saw Pero again, because

8 shortly after that he had an accident. He dropped his

9 pistol and it was suicide. I think this must have been

10 the 12th or the 13th of December. And then of course

11 someone else took over the police station and also

12 someone else had to take over command at the motel.

13 Q. Let's talk about command at the motel. First

14 of all, on the 3rd of December, when you saw Pero Elez,

15 you've told us he wore a Montenegrin hat with a

16 tassel. What kind of a uniform and what kind of

17 insignia did you note about him?

18 A. To tell you the honest truth, I really didn't

19 know much about these insignia, and I was rather afraid

20 in those days, but he wore a camouflage uniform.

21 Q. Now, can you tell us anything about the group

22 of men that he appeared to be leading at that time?

23 Can you tell us anything about whether they were unique

24 or something different about them?

25 A. He had a unit of roughly battalion size at

1 Miljevina, and then within that unit there was a

2 separate detachment or something, or company -- I don't

3 know how you call it -- of men selected by them, who

4 did certain things which they felt they should do. And

5 they wore specific uniforms.

6 Q. Can you tell us -- go ahead. Go ahead. I

7 didn't mean to interrupt.

8 A. And they had woven on their sleeves Vojvoda

9 Gingilo and some other signs. All these were done in

10 weaving or embroidery.

11 Q. Now, does Vojvoda Gingilo, does that mean

12 something? Does that have a translation? Perhaps this

13 is a question for the interpreter. Do you know what

14 that means?

15 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't know if I should be

16 asking the witness this, because it's obviously --

17 A. I do not know. I just read that out, and

18 what I read, I've told you. What it means, I don't

19 know.

20 Q. All right. Was there any other markings, any

21 animals or birds or any other insignia other than this

22 Vojvoda Gingolo on the uniform?

23 A. They used quite a number of these various

24 emblems -- two eagles, other eagles -- and all the

25 former emblems were removed, like five-cornered stars.

1 And whatever they had on the caps, they would be

2 removed and others would be attached, depending on what

3 they had.

4 Q. Now, the five-cornered star, did that used to

5 be an emblem of the former JNA?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So do I understand you to be saying that

8 these would have been JNA uniforms that had been

9 altered to have different insignia and emblems put on

10 them?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. All right. Now, sir, when you were in

13 Miljevina, were you aware of a home belonging to an

14 individual called Karaman?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And he was a Muslim, was he?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when you got to Miljevina, sir, were you

19 told about whether Mr. Karaman was still there or

20 whether his house was being used for other purposes by

21 other people?

22 A. As upon my arrival at the police station in

23 1992, in December, I didn't know that man. The weather

24 was very fine. And Nikola Rasic, whom I knew well --

25 he used to be a policeman. I think he retired just

1 before the war -- didn't dare make any comments while

2 Pero was around.

3 He said, "What am I going to do with him?"

4 And he said, "Put him up with Cadzo." I didn't even

5 know who Cadzo was. And then he said, "Bring food from

6 the motel," and every morning someone will come to pick

7 him up and they will bring him back. Those were the

8 orders. He got into his Golf and left.

9 Then Nikola was a bit surprised. After he

10 left, as we knew each other so well, he said, "Well,

11 how come you, and what's happening, and where's your

12 son?" Because his daughter and my son went to school

13 together. And I started talking that he too is in the

14 KP Dom.

15 And by then darkness was falling, and he

16 said, "Go into the room and I'll get some food, some

17 dinner." And a young man, who was piling up the wood

18 outside, he came in too. He was 16 or 17. His name

19 was Cadzo, I assume. We entered. Nikola locked us up

20 and he went off to have dinner.

21 We didn't know about each other. And then he

22 said that his father was Kurtovic, that his mother is

23 Suljus, and that is how we became acquainted. And his

24 sister had married Zelovic. He was sort of a

25 handyman. He could do everything. He could move

1 around everywhere. So he would go visit his sister to

2 get his laundry washed. And through him I heard that

3 his sister had told him about that house, this

4 Karaman's House and the people living in it, and that

5 they had brought Muslim girls to that house, to this

6 motel, and things like that.

7 Q. Were you told what the purpose was of

8 bringing Muslim girls to that house?

9 A. Everyone knows why. For sexual abuse. What

10 else?

11 Q. While you were at Miljevina, sir, did you

12 know about a couple of Muslim flats near the police

13 station in Miljevina?

14 A. Yes. As I was right next to a building in

15 which there were a couple of Muslim flats, from the

16 room in which I slept one could see the entrance to

17 that building and two flats. I can't claim exactly

18 whether it was the second and third floor or the third

19 and fourth floor. Please don't hold me by what I am

20 saying. There were two brothers living there,

21 Samardzic brothers, who before the war had been in

22 prison, Nikola and Nedjo. And they had a girl each

23 with them.

24 Q. Were they Serbs --

25 A. A Muslim girl.

1 Q. Were they Serbs or Muslims?

2 A. Serbs.

3 Q. And do you know that they had Muslim girls

4 there at their flat?

5 A. I just said that two Muslim girls were there.

6 Q. Oh, I see. All right. And could you see

7 them from where you were?

8 A. Yes. When the weather was fine, when I

9 didn't dare talk to them, I could see them through the

10 window.

11 Q. All right. Now, while you were in Miljevina

12 at the police station, did you have an opportunity to

13 listen to the radio from time to time?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm not getting a translation

16 at the moment.

17 A. In the KP Dom we couldn't listen, but even if

18 we did so, it was in secret, because we were all clever

19 with our hands, so we would connect some wires.

20 Q. While doing that, did you hear anything about

21 the renaming of Foca to Srbinje?

22 A. Yes. In Miljevina.

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Nikola, who was a good man, after all, he was

25 always correct, and he would always bring his radio for

1 his shift, and then we would listen to the radio and to

2 the news. And the story was in Foca that when the

3 assembly was going to talk about the change of name of

4 the town, and there were a lot of people who accepted

5 the name Srbinje, but there were others who were

6 opposed to this. But in the end, after all, the

7 assembly adopted this new name, Srbinje, so that Foca

8 became Srbinje.

9 But it was noticeable that there was some

10 revolt among their own citizens when we went to

11 Kosavina or to the mine for forced labour, and they

12 would see someone writing the inscription in black

13 paint "Srbinje," which means that all of them didn't

14 agree with the name either, I mean the name being

15 crossed out with black paint.

16 Q. And in fact when you went back to Foca on

17 these returns to KP Dom after this incident where the

18 town was renamed, did you in fact see signs that had

19 "Foca" scratched out and "Srbinje" painted on it?

20 A. Yes. Immediately the inscriptions were

21 changed.

22 Q. As you came back through Foca, did you see

23 any more burnt houses?

24 A. Indeed. Almost throughout the period of our

25 detention, but it was not so frequent towards the end

1 of our stay. But throughout the period of our

2 detention, one could hear one, two, three torchings,

3 depending on the period.

4 Q. And from your knowledge of Foca, as a

5 resident there for some 20 years, are you able to say

6 whose homes were being destroyed? Not by name, but by

7 ethnicity.

8 A. It is easy to answer that question.

9 Ninety-nine per cent were Muslim. There may have been

10 one or two Serb houses at the very beginning, when the

11 war broke out; somebody may have set light to a Serb

12 house, but 99 per cent of the houses destroyed were

13 Muslim.

14 Q. How about mosques in Foca? Did you notice

15 what happened to them?

16 A. The mosques, those that I was able to see,

17 the Sarajevo dzamija was set on fire before I was taken

18 in. The Aladza mosque, the one at the bus stop, was

19 still there. I don't know about the others, but I know

20 that the Sarajevo mosque was set alight before I left

21 the KP Dom. And then later on I heard stories about

22 the others being blown up, but I don't know when or

23 how.

24 Q. In particular, the Aladza mosque, do you know

25 what happened to it?

1 A. Yes. It was blown up. As I said, I don't

2 know exactly when, but on one occasion they took me out

3 to load some things near the Cehotina Bridge. A kiosk

4 was there that I had to load, and I saw that Aladza was

5 gone, that everything had been cleared away. That's as

6 much as I know about the Aladza mosque. All the

7 material from the mosque was taken away near the KP

8 Dom, maybe to some other place as well, but some was

9 unloaded near the KP Dom.

10 Q. Did you ever see any items that you

11 recognised as having come from the Aladza mosque near

12 the KP Dom by the river?

13 A. I would frequently go out to where the

14 railway tracks were parked, in the parking space, and

15 that is where the material was unloaded. Because there

16 were no parts left, so we had to make do by taking

17 parts off old trucks. And I saw quite a number of

18 stone blocks from the mosque and three pillars. Later

19 on Relja Goljanin and another one of ours was forced

20 with a forklift to load green painted wooden pillars

21 and to take them to the metal workshop.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, I'm looking at

23 the time. I can tell you now that I anticipate that I

24 have about another 15 minutes of examination-in-chief.

25 I propose that's done tomorrow.

1 I should also advise the Court now that we

2 had only planned for two witnesses for today and

3 tomorrow, and if may well be that we will finish early

4 tomorrow. We did not want to run the risk of taking

5 victim witnesses, who are our next scheduled witnesses,

6 and keeping them over a four-day break and starting

7 them for an hour or two and them having to wait four

8 days. So I apologise in advance for the fact that we

9 may have miscalculated how long we were going to be or

10 how long cross might be, but we will be out of

11 witnesses probably by mid-morning tomorrow, depending,

12 of course, on my learned friends and how long they will

13 be in cross.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So what you're actually

15 saying is that the witness now is the last witness for

16 the Prosecution this week.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: That is what I'm trying to

18 say, yes.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll break off for the rest of

20 the day, until tomorrow morning at 0930 hours.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

22 at 4 p.m., to be reconvened on

23 Thursday, the 20^th day of April, 2000,

24 at 9.30 a.m.

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