1 Thursday, 18 May 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Would the registrar please call

7 the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number

9 IT-96-23-T and IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus

10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. We are

12 still continuing with examination-in-chief.

13 The Prosecution, please.

14 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour. Just

15 before we begin with questions to this witness,

16 yesterday when I entered Exhibit 219 in evidence, I

17 made an error, and it was actually an incomplete list.

18 So before you today there should be a copy of Exhibit

19 219/1, which has the additional names which were

20 omitted yesterday, and we wish to have this entered in

21 evidence at the moment.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Can we have the

23 formal numbering, please.

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Exhibit

25 219/1, under seal.

1 WITNESS: WITNESS 205 [Resumed]

2 Examined by Ms. Kuo: [Cont'd]

3 Q. Good morning, Witness.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. Yesterday when we took our break, you had

6 described to us how you and six other girls were taken

7 out of the Kalinovik elementary school. Could you tell

8 us where you were taken first?

9 A. First they took us to a gas pump in

10 Kalinovik.

11 Q. And what happened at the gas pump?

12 A. We were transferred into a refrigerator truck

13 and then we continued on our way.

14 Q. Did the soldiers tell you where they were

15 taking you?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Other than the six other women and girls, who

18 else was in the refrigerator truck with you? Do you

19 know who was driving?

20 A. There was no one else in the refrigerator

21 truck with us, and I don't know who was driving.

22 Q. Where were you taken in the refrigerator

23 truck?

24 A. When the refrigerator truck stopped for the

25 first time and the door was opened, we were in

1 Miljevina, near the motel.

2 Q. How did you know you were near the motel?

3 A. Because there were lights and there was a big

4 board with the word "motel" written on it.

5 Q. What happened at the motel?

6 A. When the door of the refrigerator truck was

7 opened, some soldiers came in front of the door and

8 they insulted us. First they told us to stand up and

9 then they insulted us.

10 Q. Did you recognise any of those soldiers?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was the name or nickname of the soldiers

13 that you recognised?

14 A. I only recognised one person, and his

15 nickname was Zaga.

16 Q. After the soldiers insulted you, what did

17 they do? Did they say anything further to you?

18 A. No. Then a girl was taken out of the truck

19 and we continued on our way.

20 Q. Was the girl taken out at the Miljevina motel

21 or were you taken a short distance before she was taken

22 out?

23 A. We were taken a little further away. I

24 apologise.

25 Q. The place where the girl was taken out, do

1 you know where that was?

2 A. I don't.

3 Q. When you stopped that time, what happened?

4 Were there soldiers there as well?

5 A. The door was opened again, and then they told

6 us to come closer, to approach the door. They said we

7 should line up. And there were two persons there, and

8 one of them said that this girl was to get out and that

9 the rest of us could sit down again.

10 Q. Looking at the paper before you, do you see

11 the girl's name? And if you do, could you give us the

12 number or initials beside her name.

13 A. The initials are JB.

14 Q. Was Zaga there as well when this girl was

15 taken out?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What was he doing?

18 A. Nothing.

19 Q. But he saw what was happening?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where were you taken after that?

22 A. When the refrigerator truck stopped again, we

23 were in Foca.

24 Q. How did you know you were in Foca?

25 A. Because they were talking among themselves

1 and saying that we were in Foca.

2 Q. Was this the soldiers talking among

3 themselves?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where in Foca were you taken?

6 A. Next to a mosque. There was a house where

7 they took us.

8 Q. What were you told to do when you got to the

9 house?

10 A. First we got into a room. They told us to

11 sit down.

12 Q. Were there soldiers at the house as well?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Was Zaga there when you arrived at the

15 house?

16 A. He arrived with us.

17 Q. Was he in the refrigerator truck with you? I

18 don't mean in the back of the refrigerator truck, but

19 in the refrigerator truck, perhaps the front?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. But he was there when you arrived; is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The room that you were taken to, can you

25 describe what kind of room it was?

1 A. It was a bedroom.

2 Q. Were you taken someplace after that?

3 A. We went back into the kitchen, which was

4 across the corridor from the bedroom.

5 Q. Were all of you taken into the kitchen?

6 A. No.

7 Q. How many of you were taken into the kitchen?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. Did the other girls stay behind in that room

10 or were they taken somewhere else?

11 A. They were taken away somewhere else.

12 Q. Who was in the kitchen with you and the other

13 girls?

14 A. Zaga and some soldiers.

15 Q. And what was Zaga doing?

16 A. He was sitting at the table.

17 Q. Did the soldiers say why they brought you to

18 this house?

19 A. No, the soldiers didn't, but a girl asked why

20 we were there, and then they told us that we had been

21 brought there to be exchanged.

22 Q. Do you remember how long you stayed in the

23 kitchen?

24 A. No.

25 Q. At some point while you were in the kitchen

1 was there a loud explosion?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you describe what happened?

4 A. While we were in the kitchen, there was a

5 loud explosion and some stones fell against the

6 windows, the window panes, and then they told us to lie

7 down on the floor.

8 Q. Do you know what caused the explosion?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What?

11 A. The soldiers said that the last mosque in

12 Foca had been blown up.

13 Q. Do you remember if Zaga was still in the

14 kitchen with you when the explosion occurred?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. While you were still in the kitchen, did

17 somebody take you out?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. Did a soldier come and take you from the

20 kitchen to another room?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. Do you know a soldier named Ranko Radulovic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did he come into the kitchen while you were

25 there?

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. How do you know Ranko Radulovic's name?

3 A. Because I was told his name, and somebody

4 else told me his last name.

5 Q. Did you see him that night?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where did you see him?

8 A. I don't remember where.

9 Q. Did he tell you to do anything?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did he tell you to do?

12 A. To go with him.

13 Q. Where did he take you?

14 A. From the house to a shed.

15 Q. How far was the shed?

16 A. It was nearby. It wasn't far.

17 Q. What did he do when you got to the shed?

18 A. He ordered me to take my clothes off.

19 Q. What did you do?

20 A. I took my clothes off.

21 Q. Were you scared?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did he make threats to you?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. Was he armed?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What did you fear?

3 A. Everything.

4 Q. What did he do after you took your clothes

5 off?

6 A. He raped me.

7 Q. Could you describe for the Court what you

8 mean by "rape," because they need to know very

9 specifically.

10 A. I can't.

11 Q. Did he put his penis in your vagina?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And was it against your will?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did he also swear at you, call you names?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did he call you?

18 A. He cursed my mother. He said I was a Bula, a

19 Turkish woman.

20 Q. What did Ranko Radulovic do after he raped

21 you?

22 A. He told me to put my clothes on and to follow

23 him.

24 Q. Where did he take you?

25 A. Back to the house.

1 Q. Did you ever learn who Ranko Radulovic's

2 commander was?

3 A. I don't know. I didn't have an opportunity

4 to learn it. But they always asked Zaga about

5 everything, but as to who was the commander, I don't

6 know.

7 Q. When you said, "They would always asked Zaga

8 everything," what do you mean? What kinds of things

9 would they ask him?

10 A. Whether they could go to Partizan to get

11 girls, things like that.

12 Q. Was Zaga present when Radulovic took you out

13 of the house toward the shed?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was Zaga present when you were returned to

16 the house after being raped?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you describe what your physical

19 appearance was like after the rape, when you were

20 brought back to the house?

21 A. I looked terrible. I thought I looked

22 terrible. I felt terrible.

23 Q. Was your hair or clothing in disarray?

24 A. Yes. My hair was in disarray and my clothes

25 were not buttoned up. I just put my blouse on, but

1 didn't button it up.

2 Q. Were you also crying?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could Zaga see this?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was his reaction?

7 A. Nothing.

8 Q. Do you know what happened to the other girls

9 who were brought from Kalinovik with you that night?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Looking at the sheet before you, do you see

12 the name of the person who is referred to as 101?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know whether she was taken out that

15 night?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recall who took her out?

18 A. No. I can't remember.

19 Q. You told us a few moments ago that the

20 soldiers would ask Zaga things like whether they could

21 go to Partizan to take out girls. What was Zaga's

22 response when he was asked this question?

23 A. Yes, he told them yes, they could do it.

24 Q. Did you in fact see girls from Partizan at

25 that house later that night?

1 A. Yes, in passing.

2 Q. Where were they passing?

3 A. Through the corridor, to another room.

4 Q. Do you remember how many there were?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Do you know what happened to them that night?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Were you raped again that night?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Where?

11 A. In the room.

12 Q. Which room?

13 A. In the bedroom.

14 Q. Is that the first room that you were brought

15 in when you first were brought to the house?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How many times were you raped?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. Do you know who raped you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did those -- were they soldiers?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did those soldiers swear at you when they

24 raped you?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you stay the whole night in that house?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The next morning did you see Zaga again?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where was he?

6 A. In the kitchen.

7 Q. What was he doing there?

8 A. He was sitting there at the table.

9 Q. Do you remember approximately what time that

10 was?

11 A. I don't.

12 Q. Did you see 101 again that morning?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where was she?

15 A. In the kitchen.

16 Q. Do you know how she came to be in the

17 kitchen?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Was there a man there who told Zaga that she

20 should be returned to Kalinovik?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did that man give a reason why he thought she

23 should be returned?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did he say?

1 A. Because she was pregnant.

2 Q. What did Zaga say in response to that?

3 A. That they should take her to Partizan.

4 Q. Did you ever see 101 again?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did Zaga stay in the house after that?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Did you stay in the house?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Why did you stay?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Were you told that you had to stay there?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Were you ever given the choice to leave?

15 A. No.

16 Q. How many days did you stay at the house?

17 A. Two more days after the day, the first day.

18 Q. During that time were you raped again?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall how many times you were raped?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. Do you recall who raped you?

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. Were they all soldiers?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Was Zaga there during those two more days?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recall when?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Was he there continuously or were there times

6 when he left the house?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Did Zaga ever rape you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. On the third night, were women brought from

11 Partizan?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember how many?

14 A. No, I don't remember.

15 Q. What happened to them when they came to the

16 house?

17 A. First they were in the kitchen, and then they

18 were taken to the room next to the kitchen.

19 Q. Who took them to the room?

20 A. Soldiers.

21 Q. Was Zaga also there in the kitchen?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did he speak with you or the other girls in

24 the kitchen?

25 A. He told a girl to make coffee. He didn't

1 talk to me.

2 Q. Were you taken out of the kitchen to another

3 room?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where were you taken?

6 A. To the same bedroom.

7 Q. What happened to you there?

8 A. They raped me again, soldiers.

9 Q. How many?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. Did it appear to you that Zaga knew that

12 girls and women were being raped in the house?

13 A. Yes, it did appear to me that way.

14 Q. Could you tell us why it appeared that way to

15 you?

16 A. Because he absolutely paid no attention to

17 us, to what we looked like, whether we were crying,

18 nothing.

19 Q. Are you able to recognise Zaga today?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you please look around the courtroom

22 and tell us if you see him.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Please tell us where he's sitting. Starting

25 from your left, where is he sitting?

1 A. On my left-hand side, the second man.

2 MS. KUO: Let the record reflect that the

3 witness has identified the accused Dragoljub Kunarac.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MS. KUO:

6 Q. Did you see Zaga on television when he was

7 taken to The Hague?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you recognise him immediately at that

10 time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did he look different from when you saw him

13 during the events?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. When you were taken away -- how were you

16 taken away from the house?

17 A. The next day, a man came who had limp, and a

18 young man too. Then Zaga said that I was new, and

19 another girl as well, and that he could take us with

20 him and return us by noon.

21 Q. Do you know where the other girl was from?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Was she from Partizan?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know the name of the man with the

1 limp?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was it?

4 A. Zdravko Vasiljevic, nicknamed Gile.

5 Q. Did he have another nickname?

6 A. Gica.

7 Q. How was he dressed?

8 A. He wore a camouflage uniform.

9 Q. Who was the younger man? Did you learn his

10 name?

11 A. No, just his nickname.

12 Q. What was that?

13 A. Puso.

14 Q. Where did they take you and the other girl?

15 A. They took us to Brod.

16 Q. Where in Brod?

17 A. That is also in Foca. It's a suburb.

18 Q. Were you taken to a house or a flat or what?

19 A. They took us to an apartment.

20 Q. What did Gica do at the apartment?

21 A. He made coffee. He said that we should have

22 coffee, that we could go and take a bath until he

23 prepared something to eat.

24 Q. Did you do that?

25 A. Yes. We went to the bathroom to take a

1 bath.

2 Q. How did you feel?

3 A. Awful.

4 Q. Were you scared?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did Gica, in fact, give you some food?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did he say anything else to you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What did he tell you?

11 A. He said that we could stay there at his place

12 and that we didn't have to go back to the house where

13 we had been.

14 Q. What was your reaction?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. Did you want to go back to the house where

17 you had been?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you tell Gica that you would prefer to

20 stay with him?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you given any other option?

23 A. No.

24 Q. What about the girl from Partizan? What did

25 she tell Gica?

1 A. She wished to go back to Partizan because

2 both her mother and her brother were down there at

3 Partizan.

4 Q. Do you know if she was taken back there?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Was she taken away from Gica's flat?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, looking at the sheet before you, the

9 last name on the list, is that the name that you

10 remember as being of the girl who was with you from

11 Partizan?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. KUO: Your Honours, on the exhibit we

14 have put the name down as told to us by the witness.

15 Next to it we have the number 50 with a question mark.

16 We believe that it's 50 because of the circumstantial

17 evidence, but because the name is different, we just

18 wanted to tag it so that the Court understands that

19 that is the Prosecution theory.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

21 MS. KUO:

22 Q. Did you understand that by staying with Gica

23 you would be obliged to have sexual intercourse with

24 him?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did he, in fact, force you to have sexual

2 intercourse with him?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall how often it occurred?

5 A. I don't.

6 Q. Over a period of how many days did this

7 occur?

8 A. Three days.

9 Q. What happened after three days?

10 A. His parents came to the flat and then

11 everything was all right.

12 Q. Did his parents come to stay in the flat?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And when you say "everything was all right,"

15 do you mean that Gica then stopped forcing you to have

16 sex with him?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you still obliged to stay there in that

19 flat with Gica and his parents?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Why didn't you feel free to leave?

22 A. I had nowhere to go.

23 Q. Were other girls brought to the flat at some

24 point?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. If you could look at Exhibit 219/1, if you

2 see their names, could you give us the number or

3 initials?

4 A. 175, MK.

5 Q. Do you know what happened to them when they

6 were brought to the flat?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Did you see them at the flat?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you recall if they were taken out?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know what happened to them when they

13 were taken out?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did Zaga ever come to the flat in Brod?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did he ever send soldiers, his soldiers, to

18 the flat?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How many times?

21 A. Twice.

22 Q. How did you know they were his soldiers?

23 A. Because Gica told me that those were his

24 soldiers.

25 Q. Did Gica tell you why those soldiers had come

1 to his flat?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What did he tell you?

4 A. That Zaga had sent them to take me back to

5 the house where I had been.

6 Q. What would you do when these soldiers would

7 come looking for you?

8 A. Gica said to me that I had to hide. He did

9 hide me both times, and he said that I would be killed

10 if I went back.

11 Q. Who did he say would kill you?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Where did you hide?

14 A. By the building, in the fountain.

15 Q. Were you afraid of being taken back by Zaga's

16 soldiers?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What specifically? Can you describe what

19 specifically you feared?

20 A. I feared everything.

21 Q. Did Pero Elez come to the flat?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know why he came to the flat?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What was the reason?

1 A. Gica told me that Pero Elez would come,

2 because he was the man in charge for the area of

3 Miljevina, Brod, and that then Zaga's soldiers would no

4 longer be able to come to get me here at the apartment.

5 Q. Did Gica tell you that he had asked Pero Elez

6 to come and intervene?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you describe what Pero Elez looked

9 like?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would you please tell us.

12 A. Tall, dark. He had camouflage trousers, a

13 black T-shirt. He had a lot of chains, medallions,

14 bracelets.

15 Q. Did you speak with Pero Elez?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did Gica tell you what to say to him?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did Gica tell you to say?

20 A. That I had agreed to stay with him at the

21 apartment and that no one would touch me.

22 Q. Was that true? Did you want to stay at the

23 apartment?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Where did you want to go?

1 A. I wanted to go to my family, my mother and my

2 brother.

3 Q. What did Pero Elez say to you?

4 A. There was no problem, that the soldiers would

5 not come to look for me anymore, and that I could stay.

6 Q. Did Ranko Radulovic come to the flat at some

7 point?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. What did he do when he came to the flat?

12 A. He asked me to come with him to wash a

13 uniform, to go to a house at the bus station.

14 Q. Was there anyone else at the house when he

15 took you there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who?

18 A. Gica, his parents.

19 Q. I'm sorry. I meant the house that Ranko

20 Radulovic took you to. Was there anybody there, the

21 one near the bus station?

22 A. Yes. There were two soldiers.

23 Q. Are you able to identify those soldiers? Did

24 you know their names?

25 A. I only knew the name of one of them. His

1 name was Zoran.

2 Q. Could you describe what this soldier Zoran

3 looked like?

4 A. They wore camouflage uniforms. No.

5 Q. Did he have dark hair or light hair?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. What did the soldiers do to you at that house

8 by the bus station?

9 A. All three raped me.

10 Q. And what did they do after they raped you?

11 A. Again, they returned me to Brod.

12 Q. How long were you kept in Gica's flat all

13 together?

14 A. Until the 29th of September -- no, August I

15 was in Gica's apartment.

16 Q. What happened on the 29th of August?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: What year, Counsel? What

18 year?

19 MS. KUO:

20 Q. What year, Witness?

21 A. 1992.

22 Q. What happened then?

23 A. Then Zaga came with two other soldiers, and

24 he said that I had to go because the president of the

25 municipality of Kalinovik had come, Grujo Lalovic, and

1 that I was supposed to be exchanged.

2 Q. Do you remember if Zaga appeared injured in

3 any way?

4 A. No, I don't remember.

5 Q. Where did he take you?

6 A. To Foca, to the Ribnjak restaurant.

7 Q. Was there anybody there when you arrived?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who was it?

10 A. Gojko Jankovic was there. Zaga told me

11 that. And there were other soldiers.

12 Q. What did Zaga do when he took you to that

13 place?

14 A. He told me to wait, that Grujo would come and

15 that I could go to Kalinovik to be exchanged.

16 Q. Now, Grujo Lalovic that you described as

17 being the president of the municipality, do you know if

18 he was also involved in the SDS party?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know what kind of involvement he had?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did Zaga leave you alone then with Gojko

23 Jankovic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When did he return?

1 A. He didn't stay long. He returned soon with

2 Grujo Lalovic and the police.

3 Q. Were you told what to say to Grujo Lalovic

4 and the police?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What were you told to say?

7 A. That I had to tell the truth, that I should

8 not lie.

9 Q. Were you told anything else?

10 A. No, I don't remember.

11 Q. Were you threatened in any way by Zaga or

12 Gojko Jankovic?

13 A. Yes, but I can't remember which one

14 threatened me.

15 Q. What was the threat?

16 A. Well, that if I lie, that I would be found at

17 some point.

18 Q. Were you told what the truth was that you

19 should say?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What were you told?

22 A. That I should say that everything that

23 happened in Foca was of my own free will.

24 Q. Was that the truth?

25 A. No.

1 Q. What did Zaga say to Grujo Lalovic when they

2 came back?

3 A. That I could go with him, and that for one

4 girl he had to go to the police so that the police

5 would give him a paper stating that she had already

6 left.

7 Q. Do you know who girl that was?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who?

10 A. 101.

11 Q. What happened to you then?

12 A. Then I got into the car, a Niva, together

13 with Grujo Lalovic and the police, and we arrived in

14 front of the police station in Foca.

15 Q. Did anything happen there?

16 A. No. Grujo went inside and we stayed in the

17 car, sitting there.

18 Q. Were you taken somewhere after that?

19 A. Yes, towards Miljevina.

20 Q. Were you told why you were going toward

21 Miljevina?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What were you told?

24 A. That they were going to look for the other

25 girls who had come with me from Kalinovik.

1 Q. Where in Miljevina did you go?

2 A. In front of the motel in Miljevina, the

3 parking lot.

4 Q. What did Lalovic do when you arrived there?

5 A. He said that we could stay in the car and

6 that he would go to see whether Pero Elez was in the

7 motel.

8 Q. What did he tell you when he came back?

9 A. That we had to wait; that Pero Elez was at

10 the front line and that we had to wait for him to

11 return.

12 Q. While you were waiting for Pero Elez, were

13 there military jeeps that came by?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And were there soldiers in the jeeps?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did the soldiers say anything?

18 A. They came up to the car where I was sitting,

19 and the military police warned them to stay away from

20 the car. They said that they could do whatever they

21 wanted to. And, if necessary, even to get me out of

22 the car and take me to the motel.

23 Q. Did they do that?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did Pero Elez arrive?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What did he do when he arrived?

3 A. He and Grujo Lalovic talked. Then all the

4 soldiers lined up and went into the motel. They

5 talked.

6 Q. Did Lalovic tell you what they talked about?

7 A. He said that Zaga had tricked him, that the

8 girls he was looking for were not with Pero; and that

9 we had to continue to Kalinovik, that he had no time to

10 return to Foca any more.

11 Q. Did he say why he wanted to return to Foca?

12 A. Because he was looking for all the girls to

13 come with him to Kalinovik, but they were not there.

14 Q. Did he say why he thought they were in Foca?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did he say anything about believing that Zaga

17 knew where the girls were?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. Were you taken to Kalinovik?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where?

22 A. The police station.

23 Q. How long were you kept there?

24 A. From 9.00 in the evening until 1.00.

25 Q. Were you asked to give a statement there?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In your statement, did you tell the truth

3 about what happened to you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What did you tell them that was not true?

6 A. I was afraid to tell the truth. I said that

7 everything had happened of my own free will. I didn't

8 dare tell the truth.

9 Q. Did you tell anybody there that you had been

10 raped?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Where were you taken next?

13 A. To the Miladin Radojevic primary school in

14 Kalinovik.

15 Q. Was this the same school where you were kept

16 at the beginning?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was your mother still there?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know what had happened to her?

21 A. They told me that she had gone to be

22 exchanged.

23 Q. Were there other women there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And without giving us their names, could you

1 tell us who they were? Just describe them.

2 A. There were about ten women from Kalinovik.

3 There were also women from Gacko, and from Trnovo,

4 there were two women from there.

5 Q. Did trucks come to take you away?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When was that?

8 A. It was on the 30th of August, 1992, to be

9 exchanged at Jakomislje.

10 Q. Were you, in fact, exchanged that day?

11 A. Those women were but I wasn't.

12 Q. Were you told why you weren't exchanged?

13 A. Yes. They told me that I was going to be

14 exchanged at Trnovo.

15 Q. When were you finally exchanged?

16 A. On the 3rd of September, 1992.

17 Q. Could you describe for us how you were

18 exchanged?

19 A. Yes. In the morning, two policemen came and

20 they put a blindfold on me. They took me out of the

21 school, into a car, and then we drove along for a long

22 time, quite a long time. When we stopped, they took

23 the blindfold off. They gave me two envelopes, a

24 stick, and a piece of white cloth, and they told me to

25 hold this high up and carry it in my hand and to go in

1 the direction of Trnovo.

2 Q. Did you reach Trnovo?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, while you were in Trnovo, did you give a

5 statement to the police?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you tell them what happened to you? Did

8 you tell them the truth?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you tell them that Gica had raped you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Why not?

13 A. Because there was a friend of my family's

14 there, and it was very hard for me to say something

15 like that in front of him.

16 Q. While you were in Trnovo, did you see a

17 doctor?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you afraid that you might be pregnant?

20 A. Yes, I was.

21 Q. Did you discuss this with the doctor and did

22 he prescribe pills or anything like that?

23 A. Yes. I talked to the doctor, but because in

24 Trnovo there were no instruments or anything, he wasn't

25 sure, just as I wasn't. He gave me some pills that I

1 took.

2 Q. Were you ever tested to see if you were

3 pregnant, do you know?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did the doctor ever tell you whether or not

6 you were pregnant?

7 A. Yes, he did. He said it was possible that I

8 was pregnant but he wasn't sure.

9 Q. What was the result of the pills that you

10 took?

11 A. I had heavy bleeding. For about a week I

12 couldn't get up.

13 Q. And then after that?

14 A. After that, I had to wait to see whether I

15 would have my next period normally. Then I had a

16 kidney attack and I was given injections. When all

17 this was over, I was able to leave.

18 Q. After that, did you get your period

19 regularly?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you tell us how you suffered physically

22 as a result of what happened to you?

23 A. I can't.

24 Q. Can you describe for us, and I know it's

25 hard, but could you describe how you suffered

1 emotionally?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you have nightmares after all this?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you constantly afraid?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. KUO: Those are all the questions, Your

8 Honour.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Any cross-examination?

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

11 Honour. Thank you.

12 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

13 Q. Good day, Witness.

14 A. Good day.

15 Q. Would you tell us how many statements you

16 gave after you left Foca?

17 A. Two.

18 Q. To whom did you give those two statements?

19 A. In Trnovo, the first one; and the second one

20 in Sarajevo.

21 Q. To whom did you make a statement in Sarajevo?

22 A. To the Prosecutor.

23 Q. What Prosecutor?

24 A. Can I say names?

25 Q. Was it a Prosecutor from Sarajevo?

1 A. No, from here.

2 Q. So to the investigators of the International

3 Tribunal?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember when this was?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Was this perhaps in 1998?

8 A. It could have been.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like

10 the witness to be shown the statements so that she can

11 identify them.

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The Registry

13 does not have those documents.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence

15 has a statement in B/C/S and in English which it

16 obtained from the OTP. We also have a statement made

17 by the witness in 1998 to the investigators of the

18 Tribunal in B/C/S. I assume that the OTP has the same

19 documents.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: [Microphone not activated] ...

21 assistance on the statements made to the investigators

22 of the Tribunal?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence

24 has -- one was made to investigators of this Tribunal

25 and is Prosecution Exhibit 99, and the other one was

1 made to the police in Trnovo, as the witness herself

2 stated.

3 I would like these statements to be shown to

4 her so that she can identify both of them.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we deal with them one by

6 one and with full description, those made by, the

7 statement, according to you, to the investigators of

8 the Tribunal? Can we have the dates as well, please?

9 And since the Registry says they don't have --

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The date of

11 the statement is the 16th of December, 1998, and on

12 this statement in English, on every page there is a

13 signature, the witness's signature. I will show this

14 statement first, and it is X99. It was numbered X99 by

15 the OTP.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: We would like to find out from

17 the OTP whether they have the original.

18 MS. KUO: Your Honour, this was premarked for

19 identification as Exhibit number 99. We have extra

20 copies if the registrar wishes to have them.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because we don't seem to

22 have them, and they have to be numbered for

23 identification first.

24 MS. KUO: We have the English version as well

25 as the B/C/S. English is original.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: So the English version is the

2 original. The English version is the original

3 version.

4 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. These were all

5 put into the trial binders.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, okay. Yes. Please go

7 ahead and mark them.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document

9 that was numbered 99 will now be numbered D62, and it

10 is Defence Exhibit, under seal, and the date is the

11 16th of December, 1998.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, on the first page, can you see your

15 details and your signature?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And if it's not a problem for you, could you

18 look at the last page of this statement.

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now

21 like the witness to be shown another statement, which

22 we also received from the OTP and which is signed by

23 this witness. It was made on the 3rd of September,

24 1992, on the premises of the Trnovo Public Security

25 Station.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we also have it marked,

2 please? Can we have -- the usher, can you please get

3 copies from counsel?

4 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We do not

5 have copies yet.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

7 It's in English, and I will hand it over in B/C/S.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters are also

9 saying they don't have copies of these. Because if

10 you're going to read excerpts, for instance, it's

11 easier for the interpreters.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The registrar said that

13 they did not have copies.

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document

15 will be numbered D63, as a Defence Exhibit, under seal.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: The Serbo-Croat is the

17 original, is it?

18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The

19 Serbo-Croat version is the original, and it is marked

20 D63. And the English version is D63A.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

22 Yes, Counsel. You can go ahead.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. Witness, are the details on the first page of

25 the statement your first and last name, and your

1 details?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Which one?

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] D63

4 Q. For the Witness, this is the statement you

5 are holding in your hand.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And is it your signature on the statement?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You told us that you lived in Jelasnica.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How far is that from Kalinovik?

12 A. Five kilometres.

13 Q. What is the road like? Is there a road?

14 A. Yes, there is.

15 Q. And what was the makeup of the population?

16 A. It was mixed.

17 Q. So there were Serbs and Muslims?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In your village was there any tension? Were

20 there any problems? How did you live together with

21 your Serb neighbours?

22 A. We lived well.

23 Q. Do you know that on the 1st of August there

24 was fighting in the vicinity of Kalinovik and your

25 village?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know that there was fighting around

3 Rogoj?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. You told us that on the 1st of August you

6 came to the Kalinovik school.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How many of you were there from your village

9 who were brought to the school in Kalinovik?

10 A. I don't know exactly.

11 Q. Can you say approximately how many women and

12 children there were? Ten, twenty, thirty, less?

13 A. No, I can't.

14 Q. And how did you come to the school?

15 A. First, we all went on foot as far as the

16 gunpowder depot, and then we were taken to Kalinovik by

17 car.

18 Q. When you say "by car," are you referring to a

19 passenger vehicle?

20 A. It was a very big car, not a small one. It

21 was a bus or a truck. I don't remember what it was.

22 Q. When you came to the school, where were you

23 put?

24 A. We were put in a classroom upstairs.

25 Q. Were there any other people there, or were

1 you in that classroom on your own?

2 A. We were all the women and children from the

3 village of Jelasnica, and some -- a few other women and

4 children from Kalinovik.

5 Q. While you were in your village, up to the 1st

6 of August, you said that women from Gacko came to the

7 village.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know where they were?

10 A. Yes. In the school.

11 Q. How many of them came to the village?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Did they come to your house?

14 A. Yes, once.

15 Q. You don't know how long they stayed?

16 A. No.

17 Q. How did they reach your village? Do you

18 know?

19 A. Well, they came on foot.

20 Q. You said that when you were brought to the

21 school and put in the classroom, you saw guards in the

22 school.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What were they wearing?

25 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms.

1 Q. How many were there?

2 A. I saw two.

3 Q. Did you talk to them?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you have any problems with them that day?

6 A. No.

7 Q. In your statement which you gave to the

8 investigators of the Tribunal, if you would please look

9 at page 2. I will read you a paragraph. It's the

10 penultimate paragraph of your statement. Not the one

11 you gave in Trnovo. That one's in English. Would you

12 take the one underneath.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the

14 Court, that's Exhibit D62, page 2.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Can you tell us what the

16 paragraph -- what words the paragraph commences with so

17 that we can identify it on the English version?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The paragraph

19 begins with: "We were taken to the same primary

20 school."

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And I will

23 read the seventh line of that paragraph to the

24 witness.

25 Q. "The guards at the school, when I was

1 detained, were in civilian clothes." Have you found

2 this?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Today you said they were wearing camouflage

5 uniforms.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So which is correct?

8 A. What is in the statement. I apologise.

9 Q. Since you say that what's in the statement is

10 true, I assume that this statement which was made in

11 1998 was made when you remembered these things better.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You said that you and some women from

14 Kalinovik were in the classroom.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did those women tell you how long they had

17 been there?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. In the school, did you meet any women from

20 Gacko, the ones who came to your house?

21 A. I don't remember. I saw them there, but I

22 don't remember whether we actually met.

23 Q. Did those women tell you that they had had

24 some unpleasantness during their stay in that school?

25 A. I don't know.

1 Q. Did they tell you that they had been

2 maltreated?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Did they tell you that soldiers had taken

5 them outside?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. You said that on the 2nd of August three

8 soldiers came to your classroom.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What time of day was it?

11 A. It was in the evening, just before dusk.

12 Q. How did those three soldiers enter the

13 classroom?

14 A. They opened the door and walked into the

15 classroom.

16 Q. All three?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you see all three soldiers?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did they say anything?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. Did they address one another?

23 A. I can't remember.

24 Q. What were they wearing?

25 A. Camouflage uniforms with white insignia, or

1 it was a cloth, patch.

2 Q. Did they have anything on their heads?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. Did you notice anything special about their

5 accent?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. I will show you your statement again, page

8 3.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the

10 Court, this is Exhibit D62.

11 Q. The first paragraph on page 3 of the B/C/S

12 version begins, and I will read you the last line in

13 that paragraph:

14 "All three were wearing pieces of white

15 cloth, and they had caps on their heads made out of

16 camouflage material."

17 Have you read this?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell me what is correct?

20 A. What is in the statement.

21 Q. That they had caps on their heads?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were they armed?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What weapons did they have?

1 A. I don't know.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

3 it's 11.00.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it's 11.00, and we'll take

5 our break and we shall continue at 11.30 hours.

6 --- Break taken at 11.00 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination continues.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

10 Your Honour. Before I proceed, the Defence would like

11 to have the following established: that the two

12 statements that the witness has identified and that are

13 in front of her now be admitted into evidence as

14 Defence exhibits.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the

16 Prosecution?

17 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: They're so admitted under

19 seal. And I take it, registrar, that they will retain

20 the same numbers.

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. These

22 exhibits will have the same numbers, D62 and D63.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please proceed.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. Witness, you said that these three soldiers

1 who walked into your classroom had caps also.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you describe the caps?

4 A. No.

5 Q. In the statement that you gave to the

6 investigators of the Tribunal, you said that the caps

7 were made of camouflage fabric.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you describe these three soldiers to me,

10 what they looked like?

11 A. I cannot recall.

12 Q. You said that they had weapons?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where did they keep these weapons?

15 A. I do not recall.

16 Q. Did any of the soldiers have an ammunition

17 belt around his waist?

18 A. I can't remember.

19 Q. What was the visibility like in the

20 classroom?

21 A. Good.

22 Q. Who else was taken out of the classroom out

23 of the girls?

24 A. Two more girls.

25 Q. You have the list in front of you. Please

1 read out their numbers.

2 A. 101, JB.

3 Q. Did all three of you leave the classroom at

4 the same time?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I do

7 apologise, but I haven't got an interpretation.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: For the answer?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could Ms. Pilipovic please

10 turn on her microphone.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Tell me, the three soldiers that you say

13 walked into the classroom, were they accompanied by any

14 of the guards from the school?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. When you were taken out of the classroom,

17 where were you?

18 A. In the lobby of the school.

19 Q. When were the other girls brought in?

20 A. We were told that we should stay there and

21 wait, and they went to get the other girls. They went

22 to the hall.

23 Q. I understand that you already got out of the

24 school or were you in the hall?

25 A. We were in the lobby.

1 Q. Did somebody stand there with you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who was that?

4 A. Two guards.

5 Q. When those four girls came, did you recognise

6 them?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you find out later what their names were?

9 A. No.

10 Q. When you got out of the lobby, did all seven

11 of you go out together?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did any of the girls talk to the soldiers and

14 guards?

15 A. I do not recall.

16 Q. Did the guards use names when addressing one

17 another?

18 A. I do not remember.

19 Q. Did the soldiers talk amongst themselves over

20 there in the lobby?

21 A. I do not recall.

22 Q. When you got into the car, where was the car?

23 A. In front of the school.

24 Q. Could you tell me how you got into the car

25 and who entered the car?

1 A. All seven of us girls walked in and those

2 three men, soldiers.

3 Q. Where did those three soldiers sit?

4 A. I do not recall.

5 Q. When you got into the car, you set out for

6 the gasoline station; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How long did you drive to the gasoline

9 station?

10 A. Not long. It's nearby. It's not far away.

11 Q. Could you tell me now, from Kalinovik to your

12 village, you said that it's five kilometres.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How much time is needed to get to your

15 village if you go on foot?

16 A. I could not tell you exactly. I can't

17 remember.

18 Q. An hour?

19 A. Maybe, less.

20 Q. When you got to the gasoline station, what

21 happened?

22 A. We were transferred to the refrigerator

23 truck. We were told to go to the refrigerator truck.

24 Q. Who told you that?

25 A. The soldiers who were with us.

1 Q. And what happened to the car?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Did those three soldiers go to the

4 refrigerator truck too?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. When you came to this refrigerator truck, was

7 somebody in the refrigerator truck? Did somebody go

8 out of it?

9 A. Yes, they were there, but next to the

10 refrigerator truck.

11 Q. Who was there?

12 A. Soldiers.

13 Q. How many soldiers were there?

14 A. I do not remember.

15 Q. Did those soldiers enter the refrigerator

16 truck?

17 A. Not with us.

18 Q. Out of the soldiers who were in front of the

19 truck, did someone drive the truck?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. In relation to the time when you left the

22 school and when you arrived in the gasoline station and

23 when you were transferred to the refrigerator truck,

24 how much time had elapsed all together?

25 A. Ten to fifteen minutes.

1 Q. Was it dark outside?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So you could see all these soldiers?

4 A. Yes, I could.

5 Q. What kind of uniforms did these soldiers

6 have, those who were by the refrigerator truck?

7 A. I cannot remember.

8 Q. Did they have caps on their heads?

9 A. I can't remember.

10 Q. As for these soldiers who were with you then,

11 that very moment, did you see them later as well?

12 A. I do not recall.

13 Q. In your statement, the one you gave to the

14 State Security Service, that is, Defence Exhibit D63A

15 -- it's underneath, down there. On page 1 of that

16 statement, third paragraph, it starts with the words "I

17 assume." "I assume that three Montenegrins came.

18 Three men entered the room. I assumed by their speech

19 and accent they were Montenegrins."

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So these soldiers had Montenegrin accents?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So those are the soldiers who came to the

1 school to get you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You said that you came to Miljevina.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were there any lights at the motel?

6 A. There were lights. The lights were good.

7 Q. How long did you stay there?

8 A. Not long.

9 Q. Was the door of the refrigerator truck

10 opened?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was a girl taken out then?

13 A. Not there. Later.

14 Q. Did you see any soldiers there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How many of them were there?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Did they talk to you?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Could you describe the face of any one of

21 these soldiers?

22 A. I can't remember.

23 Q. Did any of the soldiers driving the

24 refrigerator truck leave the refrigerator truck?

25 A. I don't know.

1 Q. Could you tell me: When you left Miljevina,

2 when you left the motel, when did you stop? After how

3 much time?

4 A. I don't know where we stopped, but it wasn't

5 a very long ride. It was very short.

6 Q. What kind of a place was that? Was it lit?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Was the refrigerator truck opened there?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How many soldiers were next to the

11 refrigerator truck?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. Did anybody tell you something there?

14 A. Yes. They said we should get up and get

15 closer to the door.

16 Q. Did you notice the face of this soldier?

17 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

18 Q. You said to us that you came to Foca.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you tell me: When you got out of the

21 refrigerator truck, who got out of the refrigerator

22 truck?

23 A. I can't remember.

24 Q. At the moment when you stopped and when the

25 girl was taken out of the refrigerator truck, was there

1 a car behind the refrigerator truck?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What kind of a car?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Did you see whether there was anyone in the

6 car?

7 A. I can't remember.

8 Q. When you arrived in Foca, how many of you got

9 out of the refrigerator truck?

10 A. Six.

11 Q. How many soldiers?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Were those the same soldiers who were at the

14 school?

15 A. I can't remember.

16 Q. Who did you enter the house with?

17 A. A soldier walked in front of us and we were

18 behind him.

19 Q. The soldier who walked in front of you, did

20 he get off the refrigerator truck?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Can you describe the soldier who went in

23 front of you?

24 A. No. No, I can't remember.

25 Q. Did he enter the house with you?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did he stay in the house with you all the

3 time?

4 A. I can't remember.

5 Q. What happened to the other two soldiers?

6 A. I can't remember.

7 Q. When you got into the house, who was in the

8 house?

9 A. When we entered the room, there was one

10 soldier sitting inside.

11 Q. Only one?

12 A. Yes. One was sitting in the room when we

13 entered it.

14 Q. Did you leave that room?

15 A. Later we went to the kitchen.

16 Q. Who was in the kitchen?

17 A. There was Zaga and other soldiers.

18 Q. So when you walked into the kitchen, Zaga was

19 in the kitchen?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. With how many soldiers was he sitting there?

22 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

23 Q. What was Zaga wearing?

24 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform.

25 Q. Did he have anything on his head?

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Did he talk to you girls about anything?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. Was it then that you learnt his name was

5 Zaga?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who addressed him as Zaga?

8 A. The soldiers who were there.

9 Q. Was that the first time you had seen Zaga?

10 A. I can't remember.

11 Q. Apart from you six girls, were there any

12 other girls there?

13 A. When we came in, no.

14 Q. You said that when you arrived in the house,

15 you were in a room. Can you tell me -- rather, can you

16 draw a sketch of the house?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like

19 to ask the usher to bring the witness a piece of paper

20 so that she can make a sketch of the house and of the

21 layout inside the house.

22 A. Yes. Will this be sufficient?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have it marked, please,

24 for identification.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document

1 will be marked D64, Defence Exhibit D64.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Do you want it admitted into

3 evidence?

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: I take it there's no

6 objection.

7 MS. KUO: No objection.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: So admitted.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. You said that you were sitting in the

11 kitchen?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Those three soldiers who had brought you

14 there, were they there with you?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. What were the other five girls doing?

17 A. I can't remember.

18 Q. Were they in the kitchen with you or were

19 they in the room?

20 A. I can't remember now.

21 Q. Let me remind you. In your statement which

22 you made to investigators of the Tribunal, so it's not

23 that statement, it's D62, page 5, the first paragraph:

24 "The five of us, we were there a long time. Three

25 soldiers came and took the women to the school in

1 Kalinovik, and only I remained in the house."

2 Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who were those three soldiers?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Can you describe them?

7 A. I can't.

8 Q. What were they wearing?

9 A. Camouflage uniforms.

10 Q. Did they have anything on their heads?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. In the statement you made to the security

13 station, and that's D63A, paragraph 5 begins: "They

14 led us into a room." It's on the first page or,

15 rather, it's the third paragraph from the bottom.

16 "They led us into a room and brought us

17 coffee and sandwiches. Zaga arrived later and took the

18 four girls from Gacko with him. I did not see those

19 girls again."

20 Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I have to put it to you now that you said it

23 was correct that Zaga arrived and took the four girls

24 from Gacko with him. In another statement, you said

25 that three soldiers came and took away four girls, and

1 to my question you said, "When we arrived in the house,

2 Zaga was there sitting in the kitchen." Will you tell

3 me what is correct?

4 Look at the statement you made to the

5 investigators. It's on page 5: "Three soldiers

6 arrived ..." Can you tell us what is correct?

7 A. I can't remember exactly now. I can't

8 remember everything because it was a long time ago, and

9 I cannot say now which is correct.

10 Q. Can you tell me when you remembered these

11 events better, when you made the first statement, the

12 second one, or today?

13 A. Probably when I was making the first

14 statement. I apologise if I have made a mistake.

15 Q. It's understandable. Of course it's

16 understandable that your memory was fresh then. You

17 said that Zaga arrived when you were in the house.

18 That's what it says in your first statement. "They led

19 us into a room and brought us coffee. Zaga arrived."

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is that the first time you saw Zaga, when he

22 came to the house?

23 A. I can't remember.

24 Q. You said, when you were in the house, you

25 heard an explosion.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who was in the house at the time?

3 A. I can't remember who exactly was there.

4 Q. Let me remind you. Those four girls for whom

5 Zaga came, as you say, did they go out before Aladza,

6 the mosque, was destroyed, or was it after the

7 explosion?

8 A. I don't know. I can't remember whether it

9 was before or after.

10 Q. Are you sure about your statement that four

11 girls were taken away?

12 A. Probably, yes.

13 Q. Were those the four girls from Gacko?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Does that mean that you and 101 remained in

16 the house?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You said that Ranko took you outside the

19 house. D62, page 5, paragraph 2, is the statement that

20 you made to investigators of the Tribunal, page 5:

21 "After some time, I don't know how long, a young man

22 came to me. I found out later that his name was

23 Ranko."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When did he take you out of the house?

1 A. That first evening when we arrived.

2 Q. Was that before the explosion or after?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. The person you said was called Ranko, did you

5 see him later?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was this a person called Ranko Radulovic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where did he take you?

10 A. The first time?

11 Q. Yes, when you say he took you outside.

12 A. To the yard; to the shed.

13 Q. What happened to you in that shed?

14 A. He raped me there.

15 Q. Did he say anything to you then?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What?

18 A. To take my clothes off, and he cursed me.

19 Q. Did you notice anything about his accent?

20 A. I can't remember.

21 Q. Was that person in the school in Kalinovik?

22 A. I can't remember.

23 Q. Did he perhaps drive a car?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. Did he go into the house with you?

1 A. I can't remember.

2 Q. When was the first time you saw him?

3 A. I can't remember whether it was before he

4 took me out or whether it was then. I can't remember

5 exactly.

6 Q. How long did you stay in the shed?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Where did he take you back?

9 A. Back to the house.

10 Q. Did he stay in the house after that?

11 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

12 Q. When the two of you entered the house, who

13 was in the house then?

14 A. Zaga.

15 Q. Where was Zaga in the house?

16 A. In the kitchen.

17 Q. Were the other girls who were brought with

18 you in the house then?

19 A. I can't remember.

20 Q. Who of the women was in the house?

21 A. I can't remember.

22 Q. How many soldiers were there in the house?

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. In the house, were the windows shattered when

25 you came in?

1 A. I can't remember whether they were broken or

2 not. They shattered when there was an explosion, but I

3 don't remember whether they were damaged before that.

4 Q. Tell me where 101 was when you came in. Was

5 she there?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Let me remind you. You said that she was

8 taken out by a man.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you describe the man? How old was he?

11 A. I cannot remember.

12 Q. I'm going to remind you. D62, page 4, the

13 last paragraph: "A man walked into the room in which

14 the six of us were." Page 4: "A man came into this

15 room where we six women were. I remember that he had a

16 beard, a little greying. He was a little older. He

17 told "101" to get up and go with him."

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did this older man wear?

20 A. I can't remember.

21 Q. Did anybody address him by his name or

22 nickname?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. In that room that you were in, the room or in

25 the kitchen, was there a young man sitting there who

1 had been wounded?

2 A. I can't remember. I don't remember.

3 Q. These four girls from Gacko, were they there

4 when Ranko returned you?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, on the transcript

6 there's a name of a protected witness mentioned as a

7 result of the context, the text of the statement,

8 actually, so can we have it redacted? We'll have it

9 redacted. Because you read from the statement, and

10 because in the statement the numbers are not there, so

11 that's why the mistake was made.

12 MS. KUO: Your Honour, in the course of the

13 redaction, so we ask that the number be --

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 101.

15 MS. KUO: Could we ask that it be substituted

16 with 101?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Do you abide by your claim that the four

20 girls of Gacko were taken out of the house by Zaga?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you see them after that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When did Zaga take them out of the house?

25 A. I can't remember. I don't know.

1 Q. Did he come back to the house?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When?

4 A. I can't remember when.

5 Q. What can you say in response to my assertion

6 that a protected witness who was heard before this

7 Tribunal, was one of the girls from Gacko, number 190,

8 she said that that evening, when she was brought to the

9 house, she was taken out of the house by Ranko

10 Radulovic?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Did you see this Ranko Radulovic take another

13 girl out before you?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. You said that that evening when you were in

16 the house, girls from Partizan came.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How many girls were there? I do apologise,

19 but could you just answer without reading the

20 statement?

21 A. I can't remember.

22 Q. How many girls were there? You can't

23 remember?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Can you say what the time was; in relation to

1 when you were brought to the house, when were they

2 brought?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Was it after the explosion?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Did you spend the entire night in the house?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you in the house in the morning as well?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you allow for the possibility of those

11 girls from Partizan having been brought in the morning?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Where were these girls from Partizan? In

14 which room?

15 A. In the room.

16 Q. Did you talk to them?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know the name or nickname of any of

19 those girls? Write it down if you do.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Was a person called number 50, under

22 quotation marks and question mark, in the room with the

23 girls? Was she with you that night in the house?

24 A. I cannot remember whether she was there that

25 night.

1 Q. How much time did these girls spend in the

2 house?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. When they were brought to the house, did you

5 see the person who brought them in?

6 A. I can't remember.

7 Q. At that moment when they were brought into

8 the house, you did not see who brought them in, but who

9 was in the house then?

10 A. I can't remember.

11 Q. Were you and 101 in the house?

12 A. I was there, but I'm not sure about 101.

13 Q. How many soldiers were in the house?

14 A. I can't remember.

15 Q. What happened to those girls that night?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Did you see any one of them being taken out

18 from one room to another?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. You said that you stayed in that house for

21 three days.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did any of the girls from Gacko return to

24 that house?

25 A. No.

1 Q. And the girls from Partizan?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What?

4 A. Yes, the third evening they came again, as

5 far as I can remember.

6 Q. Those same girls?

7 A. I can't remember whether they were the same

8 girls.

9 Q. When were those who were brought in that

10 evening taken out of the house?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Were they there the next day during the

13 course of the day?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. You said that during those three days in that

16 house, you were raped 11 times.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you raped by 11 men?

19 A. I don't know whether it was 11 men. They

20 were all the same to me.

21 Q. Out of these 11 men, did you notice any

22 faces, and do you have a special visual memory of any

23 one of them?

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. Can you describe where all of that happened

1 to you during those three days?

2 A. The first time in the shed, and the rest in

3 the room opposite the kitchen, the room opposite the

4 kitchen.

5 Q. Did that happen to you during the night?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. After the detonation that happened, were the

8 lights on in the house or was the power cut off?

9 A. I can't remember.

10 Q. During that night when there was this

11 detonation, was power cut off and was glass broken in

12 the house and around the house?

13 A. I can't remember.

14 Q. How many soldiers raped you during the course

15 of one day?

16 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

17 Q. On the basis of what do you claim that it was

18 11 times?

19 A. Because in my first statement I knew, but now

20 I cannot remember how many there were and which

21 evening.

22 Q. Which first statement?

23 A. The first statement that I gave in Trnovo.

24 Q. When you say that your memory was the best.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. I'm going to read the last paragraph of your

2 penultimate statement: "We were taken out one by one

3 to another room. We were there for three nights. We

4 were raped there. During the night, I was raped by

5 three men and the other night by four men. They did it

6 mostly during the night."

7 You never said 11 times.

8 A. No, but --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, does it matter how

10 many times the witness was raped? If she was raped

11 three times, even once, does it matter? To your

12 defence, does it matter?

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

14 Honour. The witness is saying 11 times, and I want to

15 check her credibility. On the basis of what she is

16 saying; 11 times? Had she said once or twice, I would

17 not have asked her, but she said 11 times, and she

18 doesn't remember any one of these times at that.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: If it matters to you, Counsel,

20 you can go ahead.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Although, if I may just add, do

22 you really think it's helping us and, therefore, your

23 client, to go into this very minute detail?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

25 it is my assessment that I am helping both you and my

1 client, precisely because the witness gave two

2 statements. In the first statement, and she said her

3 memory was best then, she did not mention how many

4 times. In the second statement, she said 11. Today

5 she confirms 11, but she cannot remember who. I

6 believe that by cross-examining the witness in this

7 way, we can see to what extent she is telling the

8 truth.

9 JUDGE HUNT: If I may respond to that by

10 saying haven't you established all of that by the two

11 or three questions? We have been on this

12 cross-examination now for a very long time, taking her

13 through all these statements, bit by bit, what she had

14 for breakfast almost. It really, if I may say so, does

15 not assist to spend so much time on so much detail.

16 You've got the fact that she can't remember the names.

17 That's the most important thing, whether there were

18 11 or 4 or 1.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

20 in response to the questions put by my learned

21 colleague, she gave answers and she remembered

22 everything very well. It is interesting to know that

23 she doesn't remember anything that she is asked by the

24 Defence. By showing her her statements, I'm trying to

25 jog her memory, to see if she can remember after all.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Counsel.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I think you made that point a

3 very long time ago.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: And it's not correct to say

5 that during the Prosecution case she remembered

6 everything. It's not correct. I think we have answers

7 "I don't remember." We have them.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] But there are

9 quite a few answers where she was in a position to give

10 clarifications and to reply.

11 I shall continue now, and I shall try not to

12 go into detail. Thank you.

13 Q. You spent three days in that house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who took you away from that house?

16 A. A man came who had a limp, and a young man

17 with him, and they took me away from there.

18 Q. During your stay in that house for three

19 days, you said that Zaga was in the house?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On that first night, was he in the house all

22 the time?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. When you arrived in the apartment which you

25 say was Gica's apartment, who brought you there?

1 A. Gica and a soldier whose nickname was Puso.

2 Q. Who was in that apartment when you arrived

3 there?

4 A. There was no one.

5 Q. You said that Gica raped you in that house?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. On page 6 of your statement which you made to

8 investigators of the Tribunal, in the last paragraph

9 you said: "I was raped by Zdravko Vasiljevic for the

10 first three days of my stay with him. I said in my

11 statement to the police in Trnovo that I did not have

12 sexual intercourse with Gica. This is not true. I

13 lied in my Trnovo statement."

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Does that mean that you are telling the truth

16 today?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The apartment you were in, how big was it?

19 A. Two rooms, a hall, a bathroom, and pantry.

20 It wasn't bigger.

21 Q. During these first three days that you say

22 Gica raped you, did anyone else come to that house?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were there any other girls there apart from

25 you?

1 A. No.

2 Q. In your statement, you said that person "50?"

3 was in that apartment.

4 A. Yes, she was the first day, but she was taken

5 away from the apartment on that same day.

6 Q. But you just said that there was no one in

7 the apartment when you arrived.

8 A. Yes, but we were brought there together, to

9 the Brod, from the house where we had been before, and

10 then she was taken back again.

11 Q. Did you talk to this girl?

12 A. Just formally.

13 Q. Did you see that she was raped by someone in

14 that house?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did she tell you that someone had raped her

17 in that apartment?

18 A. No.

19 Q. In your statement, you also said that while

20 you were in that house that two girls were brought, 175

21 and MK.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When were they brought to that house?

24 A. I don't remember the day, but it was just

25 before dark.

1 Q. You said that three days later, Gica's

2 parents arrived in that flat.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Those three girls, were they brought there

5 while Gica's parents were there?

6 A. I can't remember.

7 Q. And who brought those three girls -- sorry.

8 Those two girls, who brought them to the flat?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Do you remember who took them away?

11 A. No.

12 Q. I will show you page 6 of your statement, the

13 last paragraph. It begins: "I was raped by Zdravko

14 Vasiljevic," and I will start reading from line 6: "I

15 know that two women were brought to this flat when I

16 was there, 175 and MK. They were kept in the flat one

17 night, and the next morning they were taken away. They

18 were not raped in this apartment, but they were taken

19 to another apartment where I think they were raped."

20 Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who told you that they had been raped in the

23 other apartment?

24 A. I assumed that's what happened. Nobody told

25 me.

1 Q. On the basis of what did you assume it, if no

2 one raped them in the flat where you were?

3 A. Because they left with two men and stayed for

4 a long time.

5 Q. Did you talk to those girls?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did they perhaps tell you where they had

8 been, where they had been brought from?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Will you tell me, when you were giving your

11 statement to the state security, you did not say that

12 you were raped by Gica.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Why?

15 A. Because there was a policeman there who was a

16 family friend, and it was hard for me to say something

17 like that in front of him.

18 Q. He was your family's friend?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On page 6 of your statement, which you gave

21 to investigators of the Tribunal, and that last

22 paragraph which begins -- it's D62, and it begins:

23 "Zdravko Vaseljevic." Line 2: "It wasn't true. I

24 lied in the statement I made in Trnovo because there

25 was a policeman there who knew Gica and who provoked

1 me."

2 A. No. I made a mistake when I said that, when

3 I was talking to the investigators. I apologise for

4 that.

5 Q. So what is true?

6 A. That he was a family friend, a friend of my

7 family, that policeman, and it was very hard for me. I

8 apologise again for making this mistake when I talked

9 to the investigators.

10 Q. In the statement you made to the state

11 security, apart from not mentioning that you were raped

12 by Gica, was everything else true, as you remembered

13 it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. On page 9 of your statement which you made to

16 investigators of the Tribunal, on the last page,

17 paragraph 2 -- Exhibit D62, for the Court -- you said

18 that you had problems because of the mistreatment and

19 stress, that you did not feel well at all. "I was

20 afraid even to look out of the window."

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. At that time, did you go to see a doctor?

23 A. I saw a doctor, a gynaecologist, and I didn't

24 see any other kind of doctor.

25 Q. You told investigators of the Tribunal this

1 and gave them the medical documentation?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like

4 the usher to show the witness this medical

5 documentation so that she can confirm whether this is

6 the documentation she gave to the investigators.

7 I received this documentation from the

8 Prosecution.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: How many are there? Are there

10 three different medical records or just one, according

11 to you, Counsel?

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Three

13 different ones, but not one has a stamp on it.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: We're not discussing -- it may

15 have to go into closed session if you're discussing the

16 contents. We just want to know the dates.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The 1st of

18 October, the 5th of September, and the 5th of

19 September. So one of those is a referral to a

20 specialist.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: They're all 1992?

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Or 1993?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, 1992.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] These are

1 three different documents, all in B/C/S. The registrar

2 has not received translations of these documents and

3 does not have enough documents to hand them out to the

4 Judges.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, any explanation? Any

6 English translation?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have

9 enough. I apologise. The first of these documents

10 is -- I have three copies, and the one that is a

11 referral, the young lady has it.

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I still don't

13 have any documents in English.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise,

15 but this document has not been translated into

16 English.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE HUNT: Can you tell me just what the

19 relevance of these documents is, please?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence

21 wishes to check whether the witness went to see this

22 doctor, whether these are documents that she handed

23 over to the Court, or rather to the investigators of

24 the Tribunal, and whether she was examined by this

25 doctor whose documents were submitted. We can check

1 from the documents what the condition of the witness's

2 health was.

3 JUDGE HUNT: But there has been no suggestion

4 by the witness that she was pregnant. She says she was

5 told by the doctor that he didn't know. So you're not

6 getting any conflict. Are you disputing that she

7 actually saw a doctor?

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence

9 cannot say whether she went to see a doctor at all, and

10 the Defence cannot dispute it either, until the witness

11 says whether these are documents related to her

12 condition and whether this is her diagnosis. We just

13 want the witness to confirm whether these are her

14 documents and whether she went to see a doctor.

15 Perhaps we won't even have any other questions for her.

16 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. You are rolling up a

17 number of issues there. If you want to check that she

18 went to see this doctor, then she can tell from the

19 name. What I'm asking you is: What is the relevance

20 of the documents? They obviously contain very personal

21 material. I see no issue at all in this case which has

22 been raised which suggests that the contents of the

23 documents would be relevant. Now, are you disputing

24 that she saw this doctor, or are you simply asking her

25 whether she did see this doctor?

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm asking

2 her whether she went to see a doctor.

3 JUDGE HUNT: No. This doctor. Are you

4 disputing whether she went to see this doctor?

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I can assume

6 that she went to see this doctor, but --

7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then what is the issue? I

8 really think we've got to get this down to very fine

9 detail on this. Why do you want the documents to be

10 shown to everybody?

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

12 these are documents that were given to the Office of

13 the Prosecutor by this witness, and then copies were

14 provided to the Defence. There is no stamp on any one

15 of these documents where the doctor's name is

16 mentioned, nor was this registered in the health

17 centre.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Do doctors usually put a stamp

19 on their reports? This magic which you seem to assume

20 a stamp has completely eludes me. Let us just ask her,

21 first of all: Is the name of the doctor on the report

22 the name of the doctor whom she saw? Now, why don't

23 you ask her that question first? If she says yes, then

24 I really do not see how any of the documents are

25 relevant.

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

2 I wanted, and my question was, to have this shown to

3 her and to ask her whether these are the documents that

4 she submitted and whether that was the doctor who

5 examined her, nothing else. What's that I wanted.

6 JUDGE HUNT: The second question, from my own

7 point of view, I would be happy for you to ask, but the

8 remainder of it seems to me to be a completely

9 unnecessary intrusion upon her privacy.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

11 Witness 205 is in the group of witnesses for whom we

12 received permission to be examined and to have their

13 documents be looked at by experts. That is why I

14 wanted her to confirm that this is her document, so

15 that when we submit her statement, we could make it

16 possible for doctors to give their opinions.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Why do you need a doctor to

18 examine her when there seems to be no issue raised at

19 all about her physical condition? She has not asserted

20 that she was pregnant. She has told us that she was

21 told by the doctor he didn't know whether she was

22 pregnant. Now, what other issue could you possibly

23 want to have her medically examined for?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

25 in the statement she made to the investigators of the

1 Tribunal the witness said that she had problems because

2 of abuse.

3 "I did not feel well at all. I was afraid

4 of everything. I was even afraid to look through the

5 window. Much time had passed before -- I had

6 nightmares."

7 On the basis of that kind of statement that

8 she gave to the investigators, she submits medical

9 documentation and she says, "I give you photocopies of

10 the medical documents I have. The medical documents

11 are from a doctor gynaecologist."

12 JUDGE HUNT: That does not persuade me that

13 we should intrude upon her privacy by looking at these

14 documents. Now, may I suggest to you you ask her

15 whether that's the doctor she saw, and then if you want

16 to have them marked for identification, you can also

17 ask her if they were the documents that she produced.

18 They can be marked for identification, but not put into

19 evidence and not read by anybody.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

21 thank you. I'm going to ask the witness whether this

22 is the doctor -- the name and surname of the doctor by

23 whom she was examined.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are all these three documents that you have

1 documents that you submitted to the investigators of

2 the Tribunal?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like

5 these documents to be marked, please.

6 JUDGE HUNT: And you do remember, do you not,

7 that any examination of these particular witnesses is

8 subject to an order from the Tribunal? Showing the

9 doctors the reports is not the same as having a medical

10 examination.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I

12 understand that. Thank you.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: So they will be marked for

14 identification only.

15 JUDGE HUNT: And I'm handing back my copy of

16 the documents. I do not think it's appropriate at all

17 that we should have been given them.

18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] These

19 documents will be marked D65, D66, and D67 for

20 identification. These are confidential documents.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please proceed.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You said that you were exchanged.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you told, when you went to be exchanged,

1 who were you being exchanged for?

2 A. I can't remember.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

4 I just wish to consult my co-counsel, please.

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

7 I have no further questions. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Kolesar, any

9 questions?

10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

11 the Defence of the accused Radomir Kovac has no

12 questions for this witness.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: The Defence for Zoran Vukovic,

14 any questions, please?

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

16 Honour. The Defence of Zoran Vukovic has no questions

17 in relation to Zoran Vukovic specifically; however, in

18 cooperation with my colleagues, I have been asked to

19 put one question only. I hope that we are not going to

20 fall into the trap of going into detail, but even if

21 this happens, I shall be very brief.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please. Go ahead.

23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

25 Q. Good day. My question will really be very

1 brief. I would like us to go back to the moment when

2 you were transferred to the gasoline station from the

3 school. Do you remember that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You stated there in D62 that you were

6 transported by a vehicle that you described as a

7 civilian vehicle, a Stojadin, you said.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In order to clarify this for our colleagues

10 from the Prosecution and the Trial Chamber, Stojadin is

11 a make of car that is manufactured in Yugoslavia. And

12 in order to clarify this even further, I'm going to ask

13 the witness whether the size of this car, for example,

14 is as big as a Golf car. Maybe a Golf is a bit

15 bigger.

16 A. Yes, it is a bit bigger.

17 Q. So a Golf is a bit bigger. Let us all have

18 an idea what kind of a car we're talking about.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it your point that this car

20 was a small car?

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

22 it is not a small car; it is smaller than a Golf, and

23 we all know what a Golf looks like. I just want to

24 show what it looks like.

25 Q. My question is the following: How did ten of

1 you fit into this car? And on top of that, you were

2 actually riding in this car. There were three men in

3 uniform and with weapons, and seven women. Perhaps

4 this is a detail, but honestly I'd really like to

5 know. That's it.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness can go ahead

7 and answer.

8 A. Yes, we all were in a Stojadin.

9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. All ten of you were in a Stojadin?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

13 Your Honour. I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you sit down, I recall

15 that one witness did describe how the seating was. One

16 of the witnesses did describe how they sat in the car.

17 I hope you remember that.

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

19 Honour, but not to go into detail now, it seems to me

20 that the number of persons mentioned on both occasions

21 is not exactly the same. In some cases there's more,

22 in others there's less. But now let's not go into all

23 of that. This was just my question.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: It really doesn't matter.

25 Re-examination?

1 MS. KUO: None, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness,

3 for giving evidence to the Tribunal. You are now

4 released.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Looking at the clock, it's

7 almost three minutes before 1.00. I suggest that we

8 adjourn and we continue in the afternoon at 1430

9 hours.

10 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.58 p.m.

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1

2 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 WITNESS: WITNESS 175

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness.

7 Please make your solemn declaration and stand up.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

9 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

10 and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please be seated.

12 The Prosecution, please.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Examined by Uertz-Retzlaff:

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 With the help of the usher, I would like to

17 put a list in front of the witness and at the same time

18 enter this list as Prosecution Exhibit 220 into

19 evidence. It's a list of names that should be in front

20 of everybody here in the courtroom right now.

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is

22 Exhibit 220, under seal, the Prosecution Exhibit.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

24 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

25 A. Good day.

1 Q. Would you please have a look at the list and

2 have in mind that we have to avoid to say names during

3 this examination and, therefore, we use this list.

4 When you look at the list, is the first name

5 on the list your name?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In these proceedings you have the number

8 175. Next to this number, there is a date. Is this

9 your birthday?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The next name under your name, is that your

12 father's name?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And thereunder, is that your mother's name?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where were you born?

17 A. In Foca.

18 Q. What is your ethnicity?

19 A. I'm a Muslim.

20 Q. How old were you during the events?

21 A. Sixteen.

22 Q. Where did you live before the war?

23 A. In Miljevina.

24 Q. Miljevina, is this a big town? Is it a mixed

25 neighbourhood? What can you say to us about the

1 population?

2 A. Well, Miljevina is a small town and the

3 population was mostly mixed.

4 Q. With whom did you live in Miljevina?

5 A. I lived with my mother and my two brothers.

6 Q. Your father, was he already dead before the

7 war?

8 A. Yes. He was killed in 1985.

9 Q. What did you do before the war?

10 A. I went to school.

11 Q. When did the war start?

12 A. In Miljevina, around the 8th of April.

13 Q. Where were you at that time?

14 A. I was in a village near Miljevina, Izbisno.

15 Q. Was this a Muslim village?

16 A. Yes, it was a Muslim village.

17 Q. Why were you in this village when the war

18 started and not at home in Miljevina?

19 A. Well, on the 6th of April, when it started in

20 Sarajevo, my mother was afraid for us all and she

21 decided to get us out of Miljevina.

22 Q. While you were in Izbisno, how did the war

23 affect your life there, if at all? Could you move

24 around freely or were there blockades that obstructed

25 your way?

1 A. Yes. There were barricades that were set up

2 in the streets, and we couldn't move around freely.

3 Q. Who set up these barricades?

4 A. The barricades were set up by the Serbs.

5 Q. How do you know that? Did you know these

6 people who were at the barricades or how do you know?

7 A. Well, I know because Muslims could not pass

8 through those barricades and Serbs could pass by

9 without any problems.

10 Q. What did the Muslims do? Did they do

11 anything to protect themselves in the village?

12 A. Well, they had night patrols.

13 Q. Were these patrols armed?

14 A. Some were and some were not. They didn't

15 have much weapons.

16 Q. Do you know what kind of weapons they had?

17 A. Well, hunting rifles, I think. I'm not sure.

18 Q. While in Izbisno, did you sleep in the houses

19 or did you go somewhere else to sleep?

20 A. Well, to begin with, we slept in the houses,

21 but later on when the shooting started, they fired at

22 rocks, and when the shells started falling, we slept in

23 the woods, when they started burning villages.

24 Q. Did you see villages burning around Izbisno?

25 A. Well, I didn't see them but I saw smoke, in

1 fact.

2 Q. How long did you stay in Izbisno?

3 A. Well, I stayed in Izbisno until May.

4 Q. And where did you go after May?

5 A. Then I returned to Miljevina.

6 Q. Why did you return to Miljevina?

7 A. My mother returned a little before that

8 because Serbs came from Miljevina and told us we could

9 go back freely, that we could live normally with them,

10 and that we wouldn't have any problems. Then when my

11 mother left, I followed her.

12 Q. Do you recall who it was who -- which Serb it

13 was who informed you about coming back to Miljevina?

14 A. I don't know exactly who they were, I didn't

15 see them, but they told me it was Pero Elez. And I

16 don't know who else was with him.

17 Q. Did you know Pero Elez from before the war?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you describe him?

20 A. He was of heavy build. He had dark hair, a

21 long beard.

22 Q. Do you know what his position was in

23 Miljevina during the war?

24 A. Pero was a Vojvoda.

25 Q. When you returned to Miljevina, was it just

1 the same town or did you see any changes on the people,

2 on the Serbs and on the Muslims?

3 A. Well, there were changes. The Serbs were

4 armed. There were no Muslim men at all. They had been

5 taken to KP Dom Foca.

6 Q. How do you know that they were taken to KP

7 Dom Foca, and why?

8 A. Well, my mother told me that they had taken

9 the men to Foca, and later they released a group and

10 then took them back again, so I know. And they took

11 them probably -- I don't know. I don't know exactly.

12 Q. You said the Serbs were wearing uniforms.

13 What kind of uniforms? Can you describe the uniforms

14 and the insignia, if you saw any?

15 A. They all had camouflage uniforms. They had

16 the three-coloured flag. Some of them had patches that

17 read "Srpska Garda," Serb guard.

18 Q. Could you see their weapons? Were they

19 normal hunting rifles or something else?

20 A. They were automatic rifles, semi-automatic

21 rifles, and one of them had a pistol, which is called a

22 Scorpion.

23 Q. How do you know these details about weapons?

24 A. I know. I learned about rifles in school, a

25 little bit. And as for the pistol, the man who had the

1 pistol explained it to me. He even showed me how to

2 fire it.

3 Q. You said that Muslim men were detained in KP

4 Dom but returned. Were they arrested later on again?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you happen to know why they were

7 arrested? What had happened to do that?

8 A. Well, quite a lot of Serbs were killed at the

9 front, and then they came back for the remaining men

10 and took them to KP Dom.

11 Q. When you returned to Miljevina, did you

12 continue to live in your family house and home?

13 A. In the beginning I was at home.

14 Q. And later on?

15 A. Well, later on I stayed with friends. And

16 then -- in fact, my mother asked Pero for help, to

17 protect me.

18 Q. When you said you lived with friends, did you

19 live with Serb friends?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Why did you do that? Was there something

22 particular about you that threatened your security?

23 A. I was a member of an association, the

24 Association of Young Muslims.

25 Q. And that was a security risk, to be in such

1 an organisation?

2 A. Yes. But I was young and I never thought

3 about those things.

4 Q. Did you expect to be arrested?

5 A. Well, my mother was told by a young man that

6 I should watch out, because I was on a list of people

7 to be detained.

8 Q. While you were in Miljevina, how were the

9 living conditions for the Muslims in relation to free

10 movement and food?

11 A. We couldn't move around freely. We didn't

12 have a lot of food. We were under house arrest.

13 Q. Was this a public order that you had to stay

14 in house, or why did you feel you were under house

15 arrest? Did someone order you to stay at home, or how?

16 A. I don't know. I can't answer this question

17 precisely.

18 Q. What about the Serb neighbours? Did they

19 have the same restrictions and were they also -- did

20 they also have not enough food?

21 A. No, the restrictions did not apply to them,

22 and they did have enough food.

23 Q. Where did they get their food from?

24 A. Mostly from the army.

25 Q. Was your home ever searched by soldiers?

1 A. Yes, several times, and it was done by

2 soldiers wearing camouflage uniform. I don't know who

3 they were.

4 Q. What were they looking for?

5 A. Well, first they were looking for weapons.

6 Later on, after a few times, the flat was broken into.

7 All the doors were open, but nothing had been touched.

8 Q. While in Miljevina, were you separated from

9 your family at a certain point in time?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What happened?

12 A. Pero Elez, because my mother had asked him to

13 protect me, came to fetch me, and he and Mico Orlovic,

14 or Olovic -- I'm not certain about the last name --

15 took me to a house which belonged to Mr. Hrbinic.

16 Q. This Olovic, did you know him from before the

17 war, and what was his position?

18 A. Yes, I did know him from before the war. He

19 was the chief of police in Miljevina.

20 Q. When the two of them came to take you

21 somewhere, what did they say?

22 A. That they would put me in a safe place.

23 Q. You said your mother had asked Pero Elez for

24 help. Did she have a particular reason to think he

25 would help?

1 A. I think so, because the father of my

2 grandfather helped Pero's mother in World War II.

3 Q. You said that you were taken to a particular

4 house. Is this house in Miljevina?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you say how it is situated in relation to

7 Karaman's House?

8 A. Well, it was about ten metres away from the

9 Karaman house.

10 Q. Did you know the Karaman house from before

11 the war?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Would you please have a look at the list, and

14 not say the name, if you find it there. Whom did you

15 find in this Hrbinic house? Is there someone from the

16 list? And if so, just give us the initials or the

17 number, and not the name.

18 A. Well, yes, there was a girl. RK are the

19 initials.

20 Q. Did you know her from before?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How good did you know her? Were you

23 friends?

24 A. Yes, we were friends.

25 Q. Who else was in the house?

1 A. In the house there were her uncle, her aunt,

2 two children, and the old grandmother.

3 Q. How long did you stay in this particular

4 house?

5 A. I stayed in that house until the beginning of

6 August.

7 Q. While you were at that house, did soldiers

8 come to the house?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Which soldiers? Can you name some soldiers

11 who came to this house where you stayed for a while?

12 A. Radovan Stankovic, Misko, Pedo.

13 Q. Did Pero Elez come to the house?

14 A. And Pero Elez, yes. Yes, yes.

15 Q. When they came, what did they do? Did they

16 come in a friendly manner, or why did they come?

17 A. Well, they came -- in fact, they behaved in a

18 friendly way. They didn't maltreat us. We didn't have

19 any problems.

20 Q. Were you abused in this place while you lived

21 there or the girl RK?

22 A. No. No.

23 Q. Could you see what was going on in the

24 Karaman's House? Was someone living there during that

25 time?

1 A. Yes. In the beginning, Zdravko Ivanovic

2 lived there but not for how long.

3 Q. Did you see -- before this beginning of

4 August, did you see girls in the house?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What happened, beginning of August, that made

7 you leave the house?

8 A. Well, the cellar of the house of this girl RK

9 was broken into, and she suspected certain people, and

10 she rang up Pero to tell him that the house had been

11 broken into.

12 Q. Whom did she suspect to have done that?

13 A. She suspected Misko and Radovan Stankovic.

14 Q. Radovan Stankovic, did you know him from

15 before the war?

16 A. Yes. I knew him very well from before the

17 war because we lived in the same building. He lived on

18 the floor above me.

19 Q. And this Misko, who was that?

20 A. Misko. I think he was from Montenegro, from

21 a place called Sula.

22 Q. What were the consequences, if any, of this

23 complaint of RK to Pero Elez? What happened?

24 A. Well, immediately after that, we were taken

25 from the Hrbinic house.

1 Q. Can you describe it in some more details?

2 How did that happen?

3 A. Well, it was just before nightfall. (redacted)

4 had gone to the house, she had been called to the

5 house, and after a few minutes, she asked me to come

6 in.

7 Q. In the following, please remember not to say

8 any names but better the initials.

9 You said it was before nightfall. Was it

10 already dark or still light?

11 A. Yes. You could still see.

12 Q. When you followed the call and went to

13 Karaman's House, whom did you see?

14 A. When I came to the house, I saw Radovan,

15 Misko, Pedo was there, and Zaga, of the soldiers. And

16 there were three or four girls there. I knew some of

17 them. One was number 87; the other one was DB; and the

18 third I think was number 190; and as for the fourth, I

19 didn't know her.

20 Q. You have mentioned several soldiers. This

21 Pedo, did you know him from before, and what was his

22 position in Miljevina?

23 A. I didn't know him from before. I'm not sure,

24 but I think he was from Montenegro. He behaved like --

25 I think he was more than just an ordinary soldier.

1 Q. You mentioned Zaga. Did you know him from

2 before?

3 A. Yes. No. No, I didn't know him from before

4 the war.

5 Q. How did you learn his nickname? Did you

6 learn his nickname right at that time or later?

7 A. Later.

8 Q. Did you ever learn his full name?

9 A. Yes. After the war, I found out what his

10 name was.

11 Q. How did you find out?

12 A. My uncle's wife told me about him. She told

13 me that his father had been a tradesman and that he had

14 helped them build their house because he had helped his

15 father, who was a builder.

16 Q. You knew him during the events only by his

17 nickname?

18 A. Yes, only by his nickname.

19 Q. Can you describe him to us?

20 A. Well, tall, thin, with brown curly hair. He

21 then had longish hair. He had a deep voice and big

22 eyes.

23 Q. Cold you please have a look around this

24 courtroom and tell us if the man Zaga is here?

25 A. Yes, he's here.

1 Q. Where is he sitting?

2 A. From my left, he is the first one next to the

3 guard.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: May the record reflect

5 that the witness has pointed out Dragoljub Kunarac.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

8 Q. Did you see his image, after he surrendered

9 to the Tribunal, in the media or on TV?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you recognise him then?

12 A. Yes, I recognised him.

13 Q. Is there something about him or his face that

14 makes it easy for you to recognise him?

15 A. I don't know. Maybe the eyes.

16 Q. When you saw these men at Karaman's House,

17 what were they wearing?

18 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms.

19 Q. And what were they doing when you came up to

20 them?

21 A. They were standing -- they were standing

22 there, and the girls they had brought were going into

23 the house, the Karaman house.

24 Q. The girl RK, what was she doing?

25 A. She was also standing there.

1 Q. Did you see a car?

2 A. Yes, I saw a car.

3 Q. You said you saw four girls. What were they

4 doing? What exactly were they doing? When did you see

5 them? Did you see them coming from the car or did you

6 see them already going into the house? What exactly

7 did you see?

8 A. I saw them just as they were going into the

9 house. That was the point at which I arrived in front

10 of the house.

11 Q. You said that you knew one of the girls.

12 Which one did you know in particular, if you look at

13 the list? Can you tell us the number or initials?

14 A. The girl number 87. I knew her very well.

15 We went to the same class at school.

16 Q. And did you know another girl who was related

17 to her?

18 A. Yes. I knew her sister, BB.

19 Q. And you also mentioned a girl, number 190.

20 Did you know her from before?

21 A. No.

22 Q. How then do you know her name?

23 A. Well, we met after the war.

24 Q. Did you talk to any of the girls?

25 A. Yes, I did, with girl number 87.

1 Q. What did you talk?

2 A. I asked her how come she was there and she

3 just shrugged her shoulders. That was it.

4 Q. As you knew her in particular from before the

5 war, did she look as usual or did she look different?

6 A. Well, she didn't look like usual. She was

7 lost, scared. I don't know.

8 Q. Were you scared at that time?

9 A. At that time, I didn't know what was going

10 on. I was scared.

11 Q. What happened next? While the girls entered

12 the house, what did you have to do?

13 A. We entered the car.

14 Q. "We," that is who? But please don't say the

15 name.

16 A. I -- I and RK and Zaga, and I think there was

17 another one of them but I don't know exactly who,

18 another soldier, that is.

19 Q. Where did you go?

20 A. They brought us to Trnovace.

21 Q. Do you recall what kind of a car it was?

22 A. I think it was a Lada, an old one.

23 Q. Do you recall who was driving?

24 A. I think that Zaga was driving.

25 Q. You mentioned that you were taken to a house

1 in Trnovace. Are you familiar with Trnovace? Did you

2 know that it was Trnovace?

3 A. No, I did not. I did not know. Then I did

4 not know.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the

6 usher, I would like to show the Prosecution Exhibit 210

7 to the witness.

8 Q. Witness, please have a look at the photo and

9 tell us if this house looks familiar to you and what it

10 is.

11 A. Yes. That is the house at Trnovaca that we

12 were brought to.

13 Q. And how did you learn then later on that it

14 was in Trnovaca situated?

15 A. They told me afterwards. After the war, they

16 told me that this was the house that belonged to a man

17 called Halim, who was killed during the war.

18 Q. Who told you that?

19 A. I think my mother told me, or -- I'm not

20 sure.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. Would you

22 also please turn out the light.

23 Q. When you arrived at that house, who was

24 living in the house; was present?

25 A. When we arrived in that house, Gojko Jankovic

1 was there, girl number 191, girl 186, and girl JG.

2 Q. Gojko, did you know him from before the war?

3 A. I did not.

4 Q. How did you learn the name Gojko?

5 A. Well, they were talking amongst themselves

6 and they were saying their names, and that is how they

7 addressed one another.

8 Q. And how did you learn the full name, that is,

9 the last name?

10 A. Also there, at that house.

11 Q. Who told you his last name?

12 A. I think it was the girls who were there.

13 Q. Can you describe Gojko Jankovic?

14 A. Gojko. Middle-aged; short, dark hair; a

15 short beard; a biggish man.

16 Q. You said "short." Is that related to the

17 hair or was he a short person?

18 A. He had short hair.

19 Q. And what about his stature? Was he a tall

20 man or was he a small man?

21 A. I think he was a bit taller. Tall.

22 Q. What was his position; could you see?

23 A. Soldiers asked him about everything that was

24 needed. I think that he was something more than an

25 ordinary soldier, and the other soldiers called him

1 Major.

2 Q. What about his relationship with Zaga? Were

3 they equal or was one of them superior?

4 A. They were about the same. They would reach

5 agreement on everything.

6 Q. When you arrived in the house, did you

7 actually enter the house?

8 A. Yes. Yes, we entered the house.

9 Q. And did you stay for long?

10 A. We did not stay long. We stayed only a short

11 while.

12 Q. Why did you leave? Was there an argument

13 about your stay there?

14 A. Yes. When we entered the house, Gojko asked

15 who we were. Zaga said our names, or actually said

16 where we were from, and that we were under Pero's

17 protection. Gojko said that he cannot leave us in that

18 house, that the two of us cannot remain in that house.

19 Q. And what happened?

20 A. A man, I think his nickname was Pusa, offered

21 to take us away from that house, and he did.

22 Q. And where did he take you?

23 A. He took us to a house at Brod, to the house

24 of a man called Veselin.

25 Q. Could you say where this house was situated

1 in Brod? Are you familiar with the Brod area?

2 A. I cannot say for sure where the house was

3 exactly, because it was already dark.

4 Q. This Veselin, did he have a nickname?

5 A. Yes. Veso.

6 Q. Can you describe him?

7 A. Veso was tall, had brownish/blondish hair. A

8 younger man.

9 Q. Did Veso allow you to stay in the house, or

10 did he also have concerns and didn't like it?

11 A. He did not like the idea of us having come

12 there either. When we arrived, he went out into the

13 hall with Pusa and he quarrelled with him. He didn't

14 want us to stay there.

15 Q. And did you nevertheless stay there, and if

16 so, for how long?

17 A. Yes. We stayed there all night.

18 Q. Were any of you abused in the house?

19 A. Yes. Girl RK was abused.

20 Q. What happened to her? What was done to her?

21 A. When we entered the house, I stayed in the

22 room with Veso and she was taken away by Pusa into the

23 other room. And I heard -- I heard her screaming

24 afterwards.

25 Q. Did she tell you what happened to her?

1 A. Yes. The next day she told me that she had

2 been raped.

3 Q. What happened to you that night? Where did

4 you spend the night?

5 A. I spent the night with Veso in the same

6 room. He did not mistreat me. I did not have any

7 problems.

8 Q. Where were you taken the other day, the next

9 day?

10 A. The next day we were taken to an apartment

11 that was also in Brod, Gica's place.

12 Q. Can you say where it was situated?

13 A. That was a building near the bridge, the

14 street to the right before the bridge on one's way out

15 of Brod. On the other side were some small wooden

16 houses, prefabricated.

17 Q. Was it a bigger house with several storeys?

18 A. These were smaller buildings.

19 Q. And do you recall how many floors the

20 building had and how many apartments were in there?

21 A. I do not recall. I do not recall exactly how

22 many.

23 Q. Who was there when you arrived? You said

24 Gica's place. Who is Gica?

25 A. Gica? I heard about Gica before the war. I

1 heard that he was married to a girl from Miljevina,

2 Biljana Mrgud.

3 Q. Can you describe Gica?

4 A. Gica was short, fat. He had a limp and he

5 had a tattoo.

6 Q. Who else? Were there other soldiers there?

7 A. There was Relja; and Aco, Aleksandar, Aco.

8 Q. Do you happen to know the last names of Aco

9 or Relja?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Were there girls there? If so, please don't

12 say the names but refer to the list and the initials or

13 numbers given there.

14 A. Girl 205 was there and girl number 50.

15 Q. Were they the only girls there or were there

16 more girls?

17 A. I think there was one more but I'm not sure.

18 Q. This girl number 50, did you know her from

19 before the war?

20 A. Yes, I did. She went to school with me as

21 well, the same class.

22 Q. When you saw her in this place, what was she

23 doing?

24 A. She lay on the bed, covered.

25 Q. Was she sleeping?

1 A. I think she was sleeping.

2 Q. Did you have an opportunity to talk to her?

3 A. Yes. Afterwards, she got up and I talked to

4 her.

5 Q. What did she tell you?

6 A. She said that she was raped too, that she was

7 pregnant, and that the father was Zaga.

8 Q. Did she tell you any details about how she

9 got pregnant?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did she tell you any details about where and

12 how she was abused?

13 A. I cannot remember exactly where she had been,

14 but she was in Partizan for some time, I think, but she

15 said that they took her to all kinds of places. I

16 don't know exactly where.

17 Q. When you talked to her, was she sure that she

18 was pregnant or did she only fear to be pregnant? Did

19 she discuss this matter at all, more detailed?

20 A. She was sure.

21 Q. You mentioned the girl 205. How did you

22 learn her name, and did you talk to her?

23 A. Yes, I talked to her and she said her name.

24 Q. How long did you stay in this place of

25 Gica's?

1 A. Maybe a day or two. I'm not sure how long I

2 was there.

3 Q. Did soldiers come to this place?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you abused in this place?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How did this occur? What led to this? Do

8 you know who assaulted you?

9 A. I know. I know the name only. I think his

10 name was Radmilo.

11 Q. This Radmilo, was he in any way related to

12 Gica?

13 A. I think he was something like his

14 brother-in-law.

15 Q. How did this Radmilo come to the place?

16 A. He came to the apartment and Gica told him to

17 choose the girl he wanted to be with, anyone he wanted,

18 and he chose me.

19 Q. Did you go into a room in Gica's flat or did

20 you go somewhere else?

21 A. He took me to a flat next door to Gica's.

22 Q. And what happened to you in this flat?

23 A. Radmilo raped me in that apartment.

24 Q. When you say "rape," what exactly do you

25 mean? It's painful, but you have to explain it to us

1 at least once. Did he, for instance, undress you or

2 did he order you to undress?

3 A. First he ordered me to undress and I

4 resisted. I was sitting on a bed. He dragged me down

5 to the floor, onto a blanket.

6 Q. Did he put his penis into your vagina?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What did you do?

9 A. I resisted and screamed.

10 Q. Did that stop him?

11 A. At first it didn't, but later -- at first it

12 didn't, but later on he let go of me.

13 Q. How did you feel at that moment?

14 A. I felt like a lowlife, dirty.

15 Q. Were you returned to Gica's apartment

16 afterwards?

17 A. Yes, I returned.

18 Q. Did you tell anybody there that you were

19 raped?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Was anybody else raped that night?

22 A. Yes, girl RK by Gica.

23 Q. How do you know? What did you see? What did

24 she tell you?

25 A. I saw her in the room with him, and she said

1 that he had raped her.

2 Q. To which place were you taken next?

3 A. From Gica's apartment, they took me and RK.

4 It was Veso and Aco who did it. They took us to a

5 weekend cottage. I don't know exactly where it was.

6 I'd never seen that place before.

7 Q. How long did you stay in this cottage?

8 A. Not even an entire day. A very short time.

9 A few hours.

10 Q. And why did you leave the place so fast?

11 A. At the weekend cottage, there wasn't any

12 water or electricity. Gojko came. Gojko Jankovic came

13 to this weekend cottage, and he said -- he said that we

14 should go to his home, that we could take a bath, get

15 some rest, and that then we could return there.

16 Q. And did you do it?

17 A. Yes. Yes. We returned to the house at

18 Trnovace.

19 Q. How did you get there? Was it further away

20 from the weekend house? Did you have to drive?

21 A. We went by car.

22 Q. When you arrived that second time at the

23 house in Trnovace, were there girls present, and if so,

24 which girls? Without saying the name, of course.

25 A. Well, there were the girls that we had seen

1 the first time too, girl 191, 186, and JG.

2 Q. Were soldiers present besides Gojko?

3 A. Yes, there was Zaga, Gaga.

4 Q. And what about Aco and Veso?

5 A. They were there too. That night they stayed

6 with us.

7 Q. When you say "us," whom do you mean?

8 A. I am referring to myself and to girl RK. She

9 was with me all the time.

10 Q. In that night, were you abused that

11 particular night while you were with Aco and Veso?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were you all in the same room?

14 A. Yes, we were all in the same room.

15 Q. What about the other girls? Could you see

16 who was sleeping with whom?

17 A. The girl number 186 was with Gojko, and girl

18 191 was with Zaga.

19 Q. And the third girl?

20 A. As for the third girl, I'm not sure. I think

21 she was with Gaga.

22 Q. This third girl, do you happen to know how

23 old she was?

24 A. Fourteen.

25 Q. How long did you stay in the house in

1 Trnovace this time?

2 A. I think it was five or six days.

3 Q. Did Veso and Aco stay with you in the house?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Why did they leave? What happened?

6 A. The next day, the following evening when we

7 were all sitting in the house, Zaga asked them to come

8 outside. Then he came back, and I asked about Veso,

9 and he said that it was war and that there were no love

10 relationships there.

11 Q. What did he mean by this?

12 A. Well, he thought that I was having a love

13 affair with Veso.

14 Q. And did you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. That second night of this second stay in the

17 house, how many soldiers were there? Do you know who

18 was present?

19 A. Gojko, Zaga, and Gaga.

20 Q. Were these three in the house the entire week

21 you were there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were they there during day and night?

24 A. They were always there during the night, and

25 sometimes during the day. Later there was also

1 Jadranka.

2 Q. Were there also other soldiers there besides

3 the three you mentioned, and Jadranka? Were there

4 additional soldiers there? Do you recall anybody else?

5 A. Yes. Zoran. Zoran Nikolic.

6 Q. Do you know anything about this soldier?

7 Where did he come from?

8 A. He was from Montenegro.

9 Q. And do you recall what he looked like?

10 A. Well, Zoran was thin, tall. He had dark,

11 longish hair.

12 Q. You mentioned Jadranka. Do you know her full

13 name?

14 A. Well, I think her last name was Dilberovic.

15 Q. And what did she look like? Can you describe

16 her?

17 A. Jadranka was short, thin. She had long --

18 rather long fair hair. She had full lips and big

19 teeth.

20 Q. I think I forgot to ask you: Can you

21 describe Gaga?

22 A. Gaga was heavy set. He was rather fat. He

23 had short, greying hair.

24 Q. And how did you learn the name Zoran Nikolic

25 and Jadranka Dilberovic? How did you learn that?

1 A. Well, they called each other by name, and I

2 learned the rest from the other girls who were there.

3 Q. Those persons you have just mentioned, were

4 they all in uniform, including the woman?

5 A. They were all in uniform. Jadranka arrived

6 in uniform the first time she came, but then she took

7 it off and she didn't wear a uniform later on. She

8 took it off.

9 Q. Did she have any blood on her uniform?

10 A. Yes. The uniform was covered with blood.

11 Q. Did she ever tell you how the blood came onto

12 the uniform?

13 A. Yes. She made us wash the uniform, and she

14 said that she had been slaughtering Muslims and that it

15 was their blood.

16 Q. Did all these soldiers and the female, did

17 they all stay in the house that week?

18 A. Yes. Yes, they did.

19 Q. How were the sleeping arrangements between

20 these people and the girls, including you?

21 A. Well, girl 191 was with Zaga; girl 186 with

22 Gojko; and I and RK, we were with Gaga.

23 Q. What about Jadranka?

24 A. Jadranka was having an affair with Zoran.

25 Q. Do you know where Zaga slept with the girl

1 191, in which room?

2 A. Well, on the ground floor of the building. I

3 don't know in which room exactly.

4 Q. And Gojko and the girl 186?

5 A. Well, upstairs.

6 Q. Are you able to say in which room? For

7 instance, if I show you the photo, would you be able to

8 show the room? With the help of the usher, I would

9 like to have you look -- another look onto the photo.

10 Maybe it triggers your memory. When you look at the

11 photo, could you say in which room 186 and Gojko were?

12 A. I think -- I think they were in this room

13 [indicates].

14 Q. And where were you and RK and Gaga? Is it

15 possible to show it on this photo?

16 A. We were opposite that room.

17 Q. So at the backside, or do you mean this room

18 you see on the photo -- on the backside?

19 A. Well, this is where we spent the days. This

20 is where we were in the daytime [indicates]. And that

21 night I was in another room.

22 Q. You said you had to spend the night -- you

23 were together with Gaga. Can you tell us what

24 happened?

25 JUDGE HUNT: Before you go into that, if it's

1 important, don't you think we should have recorded in

2 the transcript which room she was pointing to?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you.

4 First when we talked about the room Gojko and

5 186 were in, she pointed at room on the right side,

6 shown on this photo. Then she pointed out the room

7 where they stayed during daytime, and that is the

8 room -- the left room --

9 JUDGE HUNT: In each case --

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: -- upstairs. And it's

11 upstairs.

12 Q. When you were together with Gaga, what

13 happened? What did the two girls have to do? Did he

14 say anything to you when you were together with him?

15 Did he say -- for instance, did he mention the young

16 girl, the third girl?

17 A. Yes. The girl JG, he said that he had been

18 with her the previous night and that now he would be

19 with the two of us.

20 Q. And where did he take you?

21 A. He took me and RK to the room, together.

22 Q. And what happened in the room?

23 A. He told us to take our clothes off.

24 Q. And did you do that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you try to resist that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what happened?

4 A. RK sat on the bed. He told her to sit on the

5 bed and he told me to crouch down on the floor.

6 Q. At that time were you afraid?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What did you fear?

9 A. I was afraid of rape, of blows, of

10 maltreatment.

11 Q. When you were crouching on the floor and the

12 other girl was sitting, what did you have to do, and

13 what did the other girl have to do?

14 A. RK had to kiss him.

15 Q. And you?

16 A. And he made me to -- he made me put his penis

17 into my mouth.

18 Q. How did you feel when you had to do that?

19 A. Disgusting.

20 Q. What then? What happened then after you had

21 done that?

22 A. Then he told us to change places. And then

23 he told her she could leave the room, and I was left

24 behind. After that he raped me.

25 Q. And does that mean he put his penis into your

1 vagina against your will?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. Did you have to spend the entire night with

4 him?

5 A. Yes. I asked him to let me go to another

6 room, but he didn't.

7 Q. And did anything else happen in the morning?

8 A. Yes. He woke me up and he raped me again.

9 Q. Do you know what happened to the other girls,

10 that is, the girls 191 and 186? Were they raped as

11 well?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did they tell you about it?

14 A. Well, they didn't say anything specific, but

15 I could see. You could see it on them.

16 Q. What did you see on them?

17 A. They were nervous. I don't know how to

18 describe it.

19 Q. The next morning, did the soldiers -- did all

20 the soldiers leave the house, or did they stay, or did

21 some of them stay?

22 A. They stayed.

23 Q. Did Zaga see that Gaga raped you and also

24 RK? Was he aware of this?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You mentioned the female, Jadranka. Can you

2 tell us how she treated the girls, especially you and

3 RK?

4 A. She made the girl RK drink alcohol and she

5 beat her, and she also beat me.

6 Q. Why did she do that?

7 A. The girl RK refused to drink with her and

8 that's why.

9 Q. Was that the only occasion that she beat you

10 and RK or was that a frequent occurrence?

11 A. It was a frequent occurrence, especially RK.

12 Q. Did Zaga see this mistreatment?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was he present when that occurred?

15 A. We could all hear it.

16 Q. Did he ever intervene when this happened?

17 A. Gojko Jankovic intervened on one occasion.

18 Q. Did she do anything -- did Jadranka do

19 anything else that you would call abuse or

20 mistreatment?

21 A. Well, yes. She made us give her a bath, girl

22 191 and me. She made us bathe her, and then she made

23 me to have a bath together with Gaga, to sit in the

24 bath with him, and she poured water on us.

25 Q. Did she put hot water on you on an occasion

1 or mistreat you with water?

2 A. Yes. She poured water on my face. I thought

3 I would suffocate.

4 Q. Did she have a particular reason to mistreat

5 you and RK? Did you provoke her in any way, or why did

6 she do it?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You said that Jadranka had a relationship

9 with this Zoran Nikolic. How do you know that? Did

10 you ever watch her having --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How did that come about?

13 A. Yes. One night when Jadranka and Zoran were

14 in the room, Gojko, Zaga, and the others opened the

15 door and called us to the door to see this.

16 Q. Were you raped on any other occasion in this

17 house?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you recall when that was?

20 A. The day before I left that house, in August.

21 Q. And who raped you and how did that start?

22 A. A young man whose nickname was Fantom. There

23 were quite a few soldiers in the house at that time.

24 Jadranka came to get me and took me to the ground

25 floor, pushed me into a room, and locked the door.

1 Fantom was in the room.

2 Q. Can you describe Fantom?

3 A. He was rather tall, he was thin, he was olive

4 skinned and had a biggish nose.

5 Q. Do you recall if he had a scar on his face?

6 A. I think he did have a scar, but I don't know

7 what caused it exactly.

8 Q. And what did Fantom do to you in that room?

9 A. He raped me.

10 Q. That means he put his penis into your vagina

11 against your will?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was Zaga present when that occurred?

14 A. Yes. I think he was upstairs.

15 Q. Was anyone else abused on that last night,

16 your last night in the house? Do you recall that? I

17 mean was RK abused?

18 A. Jadranka sent her into a room with a young

19 man whose name was Sasa, but I don't know whether she

20 was abused.

21 Q. What authority did Jadranka have to send you

22 into a room or to send RK into the room into the

23 presence of Gojko and Zaga? Did they just let her do

24 what she wanted?

25 A. Well, by the way she was behaving, I think

1 they did just let her do what she wanted.

2 Q. Did she have a relationship with Zaga or

3 Gojko? I mean a sexual relationship.

4 A. No. I didn't see it.

5 Q. How could you leave the house?

6 A. Well, the young man called Sasa took girl RK

7 from the house. I didn't know where they had gone.

8 Q. Yes. What happened to you?

9 A. I remained in the house.

10 Q. Did Jadranka do anything when she noticed

11 that RK was gone?

12 A. Yes. She asked me where she was and who she

13 had gone with.

14 Q. And could you tell her?

15 A. No, I couldn't, because I didn't know where

16 she had gone or with whom.

17 Q. And what happened? What did she do?

18 A. Jadranka beat me to make me tell her where

19 she was.

20 Q. Did this Sasa come again?

21 A. Yes. He came get next day.

22 Q. And what happened?

23 A. And he said he had come to get me.

24 Q. To whom did he speak?

25 A. With Jadranka. He talked to Jadranka.

1 Q. What -- did he tell Jadranka where he had

2 taken RK and was going to take you?

3 A. He said he had taken her to some worse place,

4 that she was already common currency, and that he had

5 come to take me also.

6 Q. What does that mean, "she was already common

7 currency"?

8 A. That she was with others.

9 Q. What does that mean, "she was with others"?

10 To pass around among men or what do you mean?

11 A. Yes. Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

12 Q. Did Jadranka then allow you to leave with

13 Sasa, or did he first have to negotiate with someone

14 else?

15 A. Well, she -- first she asked him why me? She

16 told him to take another girl, any other girl, to

17 choose, and he said he wanted me.

18 Q. Yes. Did he have to pay for you?

19 A. Yes. He gave her some money. I don't know

20 exactly how much.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 4.00

22 but I have only five minutes left. So with your

23 permission, I would -- it's up to you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: I would like to ask the

25 interpreters. Can we have five minutes?

1 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

4 Q. Was Zaga present when this occurred?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did he say anything or do anything? Did he

7 say anything or wasn't he interested in what was going

8 on?

9 A. No. When I was on my way out, when I was at

10 the door, as we were going out, he saw us out. He

11 stopped me, and he took my hand, and he took the ring

12 off my finger, and he said, "You won't need this any

13 more."

14 Q. Did he give your ring to anybody?

15 A. I don't know what happened with the ring

16 because I left.

17 Q. Where can Sasa take you?

18 A. Sasa took me where R.K. was. He had

19 already taken her, and he took me to where she was.

20 Q. Was that in Miljevina?

21 A. In Miljevina, yes, to the Hrbinic house.

22 Q. From there, where were you taken then?

23 A. From there he took us to Titovo Uzice.

24 Q. That is in Serbia?

25 A. In Serbia, yes.

1 Q. How many years then did you spend in Serbia?

2 A. I was in Serbia from the middle or the end of

3 August in 1992 until 1997.

4 Q. While you were in Serbia, were you working

5 there and in different places?

6 A. Yes. I worked in a cafe.

7 Q. And were you -- when did you return to

8 Bosnia?

9 A. I arrived in Sarajevo on the 9th of April,

10 1997.

11 Q. Were you then reunited with your mother?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. While in Serbia, did this Sasa stay with you?

14 A. No. He left us in Serbia and then he went

15 back immediately to Foca.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you don't have to be

17 in a hurry. The witness will come back for

18 cross-examination anyway. So if you feel you need some

19 more time, we can continue then.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour. I

21 think I'm finished. I just want to consult with my

22 colleagues.

23 [Prosecution counsel confer]

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

25 Q. Did you stay in Serbia voluntarily or were

1 you forced to stay there?

2 A. I didn't have anywhere to go to. I had to

3 stay in Serbia.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think that's all.

5 Thank you for more time, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Is that the end of

7 examination-in-chief?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: The Court will rise. We shall

10 continue on Monday at 0930 hours.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

12 at 4.06 p.m., to be reconvened on

13 Monday, the 22^nd day of May, 2000

14 at 9.30 a.m.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25