1 Thursday, 15th October, 1998
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (The witness entered court)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.55 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
7 Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran
8 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago
9 Josipovic, Dragan Papic, Vladimir Santic, also known as
10 "Vlado."
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.
12 Before we resume our proceedings, I would like to ask
13 the Prosecution whether they turned over to the Defence
14 the videotape about the Bungalow, the whole videotape.
15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I believe we have. The
16 videotape that was shown in court --
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: -- earlier? Yes. I believe
19 we have.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. And
21 we also, since the decision concerning the on-site
22 visit to Ahmici has been circulated, we would welcome
23 requests or comments from the parties in accordance
24 with the Rules of Conduct. Point 5 states the parties
25 will be asked in advance to request orally or in
1 writing the points of the itinerary from where they
2 would like to make observations relating to the
3 Kupreskic trial.
4 I wonder whether you could make such request
5 today, so that we can decide how to proceed.
6 All right. Now, the notes have been
7 circulated, and I wonder whether the Defence counsel
8 would like to continue with the cross-examination.
9 Counsel Pavkovic?
10 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Lordship, this afternoon
11 perhaps we shall be raising this question, but I should
12 like you to allow each one of the Defence team to be
13 allowed to say whether he has any objections or not.
14 But would you like to do it now or shall we simply
15 resume yesterday's work?
16 JUDGE CASSESE: No, no, we should resume our
17 work. I was asking about the notes taken by the
18 witness which were distributed, and I wonder whether
19 you had the opportunity to read those notes, and in
20 light of those notes, to continue the cross-examination
21 of this witness.
22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Lordship, yes, we have
23 received those notes, and I should like to ask for your
24 permission to begin with some other questions, if I
25 may?
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
2 WITNESS: EDIB ZLOTRG (Resumed)
3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, before I proceed
4 to the cross-examination, I should like to ask you for
5 your attention and perhaps a little bit of patience.
6 However, when I come to the end of this presentation, I
7 believe you will understand why I have chosen this
8 particular approach to this issue.
9 Before I therefore start with the
10 cross-examination, I should like to say a few words
11 about another matter.
12 Your Honours, yesterday the Prosecutor
13 examined the witness, and the witness answered his
14 questions about the murder of Samir Trako which
15 happened in the Hotel Vitez in 1992. The witness says
16 that he was prevented from conducting an investigation
17 on site because Franjo Sucic was sent there upon the
18 orders of Pero Skopljak, and the witness said that the
19 scene of the crime had been tampered with meanwhile.
20 Furthermore, the witness, when asked by the
21 Prosecution, spoke about the events of the 2nd March,
22 1993, when Esad Salkic was murdered. He spoke about
23 the brutal behaviour of a certain Miroslav Bralo,
24 called Cicko. He also described the circumstances of
25 that particular murder.
1 The Prosecutor then directly examined the
2 witness about the events on the 21st of October, 1992,
3 when members of the BH army were killed, and the
4 witness then also spoke about how they were treated by
5 the Military Police which threw them out of the police
6 vehicle in front of the police station in Stari Vitez,
7 and then Vlado Santic intervened, and then things took
8 another direction.
9 Then the Prosecutor examined the witness
10 about the events of the 26th of April, '93, in the
11 Bungalow, and the witness said that they had been
12 forced to get out of the van, put their hands up behind
13 their heads, and so on and so forth, that is, the
14 witness again spoke about the details of the event.
15 The Prosecutor also examined the witness and
16 the latter provided answers about certain conduct of
17 Miroslav Bralo. Those people who happened to be in
18 Kratine and who were allegedly digging trenches when
19 this individual ill-treated them.
20 Lastly, and this is important in this case,
21 the Prosecutor asked the witness, and the witness
22 answered accordingly, that he talked to Ivan Josipovic
23 and Ivan Josipovic told him that Vlado Santic had taken
24 an active part on the attack on the village of Ahmici
25 on the 16th of April, 1993, coming from the direction
1 of the Bungalow.
2 In other words, Your Lordships, I should like
3 to warn that all that this witness answered was in
4 direct questions from the Prosecutor, that is, it was
5 not free statement, free testimony of the witness.
6 When it came to the cross-examination and when I drew
7 the attention of the Prosecutor that his questions did
8 not all relate to the notes that were submitted to the
9 Defence, the notes or, rather, the records of this
10 witness on the 26th of July, '97, and when I drew
11 attention to the fact that in the end it said that the
12 witness's notes on ten pages were attached to it and
13 that these notes were an integral part of this record,
14 the Prosecutor said, you will remember, that he never
15 noted, never saw those notes, and that he knew nothing
16 about them.
17 So that is one thing.
18 I should also like to say another thing.
19 I read those notes, and what does one see in
20 them? On page 2 of the alleged notes of witness Zlotrg
21 of the 5th of September, 1996, one can see that this
22 witness writes about the murder of Samir Trako, that he
23 talks about all the figures relative to the on-site
24 inspection, and that he points out that the scene of
25 the crime had been tampered with, just as he told the
1 Court yesterday.
2 Furthermore, on page 5 of these notes, we can
3 also see that on the 2nd of March, '93, Esad Salkic was
4 killed, Miroslav Bralo is mentioned again, and again he
5 speaks about the alleged brutality of the latter.
6 On page 6, the murder of Bosnian officers and
7 the conduct of the Military Police by the Vitez Hotel
8 is also mentioned, and Vlado Santic's conduct.
9 Lastly, on page 8 of these notes, we see the
10 events on the 26th of March, '93, when the witness
11 heard Vlado Santic's voice and, in particular, mentions
12 Ivan Josipovic who told the witness, according to what
13 he said yesterday, that Vlado Santic had been an active
14 participant in the attack.
15 Now, if we relate the answers of the witness
16 to the Prosecutor's questions and when we look at these
17 notes and we see that the Prosecutor examined the
18 witness in the order and as to the substance of these
19 notes, so I should first like to hear from the
20 Prosecution, how could the Prosecution follow the exact
21 order of this if, as the Prosecutor said yesterday, he
22 knew nothing about this, if he did not have these
23 notes?
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz?
25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour. I would
1 like to reiterate that I did not have these notes. It
2 is, however, an oversight and a regrettable oversight
3 that these notes were not turned over to the Defence
4 earlier, and it was an oversight in the sense that we
5 simply did not notice in the original statement that
6 the notes were attached, and for that we are sorry.
7 I can certainly provide for the Court a brief
8 history of how we came to speak to this witness and how
9 it came about that these questions were asked, if the
10 Court desires?
11 This witness was interviewed in '98 by an
12 investigator in Central Bosnia in connection with
13 another investigation, and it was not an interview, it
14 was just a discussion and not a signed interview, and
15 during the course of that discussion, it became clear
16 that this witness had some information about
17 Mr. Santic.
18 On the strength of those notes, we asked
19 Mr. Zlotrg to come to The Hague to be proofed for
20 possible testimony, and during the course of talking to
21 him, he provided a lot of information, and we culled it
22 down to the information that I felt was relevant to the
23 Tribunal, those dates.
24 Having now seen the translation of his notes,
25 it certainly is clear to me that as he was talking to
1 me, he was speaking from his knowledge of what happened
2 during the incident, and his knowledge is based, to a
3 large extent, on what he saw and what he observed, and
4 also as it was recorded in his notes. And that's how I
5 conducted the direct examination.
6 The notes, I believe, should have been turned
7 over. It was not. It is an oversight. But I did not
8 have the notes. I did not have the English translation
9 of the notes. I did not know what was in those notes.
10 All I knew is what this witness was telling me during
11 proofing, and what he was telling me during proofing
12 is, as Defence counsel points out, consistent with, in
13 fact, what he recollected in 1996 when he wrote the
14 notes, and that's what happened.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel
16 Pavkovic?
17 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, we again have
18 not heard the answer as to how did he manage to observe
19 the order in the substance of these notes, but I
20 presume it is up to you, Your Lordships, to decide.
21 The Prosecutor again affirms that he did not
22 have these notes. Your Lordships, I should like to
23 tell you, and of course you can either trust me or
24 check it, that in the records of the Furundzija case,
25 the Prosecutor's Office gave these notes to the
1 Prosecution (sic) even in their English translation.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: In Furundzija? You say in
3 Furundzija?
4 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes, in the Furundzija case.
5 These notes were given to the Defence and including
6 their English translation. I checked that, and you can
7 also get the same information.
8 Now, in this regard, I should like to address
9 the Prosecution.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: We believe that -- I don't
11 doubt that what you just said is correct in the
12 Furundzija case -- but you should take into account
13 that in the Furundzija case, a different team from the
14 Office of the Prosecutor took part in the proceedings,
15 so the trial attorneys from the Prosecution were other
16 persons, and probably there was a lack of contact
17 between the various teams of the OTP. This is one
18 point.
19 My second point is that we don't question and
20 we will not question the good faith and the
21 professional attitude of Mr. Moskowitz. I am sure that
22 this was an oversight.
23 Third point: On the other hand, as soon as
24 you realised that there were notes, they were passed on
25 to you and you had the opportunity to go through the
1 notes, and this morning you are going to cross-examine
2 the witness on the basis of those notes.
3 The final point, I would not overemphasise
4 the importance of this problem because, in any case,
5 these are peripheral matters. Let's be very clear
6 about this. The matters raised in this testimony
7 really are not of crucial importance.
8 Therefore, as I say, I think we could move
9 on.
10 MR. PAVKOVIC: If I may, Mr. President, I am
11 happy to hear that that is how you see it. To my mind,
12 this testimony is more important and it seems that I
13 accord more attention to this problem than it really
14 deserves on the face of it.
15 I nevertheless have to say that we, on the
16 Defence team, and regardless of what Mr. Moskowitz
17 says, we are really quite worried about what happened,
18 and I am not really convinced that this was merely an
19 oversight.
20 However, it is, as I have said, up to you to
21 decide, and I won't dwell on that.
22 The statement that was given to us, that is a
23 statement in which there is not a word about the
24 witness saying -- I mean, if you have to prepare for a
25 cross-examination, you don't only read the notes. I
1 could, of course, read those notes about a dozen
2 times. But to my mind, preparing for
3 cross-examination, it means to verify the claims, the
4 affirmations, in a particular statement, and I think
5 that the provisions of 66A of our Rules, which says
6 that not less than -- will permit the Defence to
7 inspect any documents and so on and so forth, and the
8 purpose of this is to do it really in due time and to
9 allow them to verify the information suggested.
10 So the cross-examination cannot be based only
11 on logical, semantic, linguistic, or any other
12 verifications of the trustworthiness of a witness. The
13 witness talks about facts that I have heard for the
14 first time and which I could not verify.
15 For instance, the witness asserted that Ivan
16 Josipovic, the brother of the wife of the accused, told
17 him that Vlado Santic had been an active participant in
18 the attack. Now, this is a serious accusation even if
19 hearsay.
20 Yesterday, I talked to the wife of the
21 accused, and she says, "my brother has excellent
22 relations with me and with my husband. My brother was
23 in a camp where he was badly beaten and barely saved
24 his life in the camp of the B and H army," and that is
25 where our witness could have contact with him. And, of
1 course, if it is true what he says, it is under those
2 circumstances, when his life was in danger, that he
3 could have said that -- what the witness asserts that
4 he said.
5 So this is one of the things and there are
6 very many other things for which I really think I am
7 entitled to prepare for cross-examination very
8 conscientiously, very carefully. But, as the
9 Prosecutor acted in contravention of Rule 66A(i) and
10 not under C, and I really think that he has denied the
11 right of the Defence and, in a way, infringed upon the
12 right of the Defence, so will you please decide whether
13 I am entitled to time for preparation of the
14 cross-examination as this material was disclosed to me
15 only yesterday?
16 JUDGE CASSESE: In light of the serious
17 objections made by Defence counsel, since actually an
18 oversight did occur on the part of the Prosecution, and
19 also considering that the testimony does not appear to
20 be of crucial importance, we have decided to disallow
21 this testimony, and so therefore, we will not take into
22 account in any way the testimony given by the present
23 witness, as if it had never been given to the Court. So this
24 for the sake of respecting the rights of the Defence.
25 Mr. Moskowitz?
1 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Mr. President. It may
2 be a bit late to offer an alternative solution, but one
3 thing that occurred to me, because we do view this
4 testimony as somewhat important and would hate to see
5 that it not be considered by the Tribunal, as I
6 understand it, we will begin, at the end of November,
7 with the Defence case, and would request consideration
8 to this possibility, that the witness be called back on
9 that date or the day before or before the Defence case
10 begins to be cross-examined by Defence counsel to the
11 extent they need to cross-examine him. That will
12 provide them with more than sufficient time to prepare
13 for whatever cross-examination they feel that Defence
14 counsel needs and it would also allow the evidence to
15 be preserved so that the Tribunal can consider it at
16 the end of the case. We do feel that some of this
17 testimony is quite significant, and so we would request
18 the Tribunal to consider that alternative.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: No, actually, we had already
20 considered the option you had just offered and had
21 ruled it out, so therefore, we stick to our decision.
22 As a result also, the document handed yesterday by the
23 Prosecution, which is Exhibit 313, will not be taken
24 into account.
25 In any case, it was given only for
1 identification purposes. It will not be taken into
2 account.
3 So I -- yes?
4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Just a point of
5 clarification, Your Honour, on Exhibit 313. We did
6 offer it only to -- for identification purposes with
7 the hope of authenticating it in another manner at a
8 later date, and because we received this document only
9 at the end of our case, we would hope to be able to be
10 allowed to find some way to authenticate it, either
11 with another witness, although that appears to be
12 unlikely, or through perhaps handwriting samples from
13 Mr. Kupreskic.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: No. We had already decided
15 yesterday afternoon that we would not allow any such
16 checking of the handwriting of the accused, and we had
17 decided to ask Defence counsel whether they dispute the
18 contents of the agreement, regardless of whether or not
19 this agreement was signed by one of the accused,
20 whether you agree that an agreement was made.
21 If you were not to dispute that, we thought
22 that we could take into account this agreement as
23 signed by somebody called Zoran, without putting any
24 family name next to the first name.
25 Again, let me ask you whether you -- although
1 at this stage this question has become somewhat moot --
2 however, since you may wish to introduce this document
3 to -- this exhibit again, you said that you are going
4 to see whether it can be authenticated, let me just
5 explore and see what the position of the Defence
6 counsel is.
7 Counsel Radovic? About the contents of the
8 agreement, the contents, without the question of who
9 signed it.
10 MR. RADOVIC: We are contesting the
11 authenticity of the document. We are contesting -- we
12 dispute the possibility that Zoran Kupreskic might have
13 signed such a document or taken part in such an
14 agreement.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: No, I agree, I agree,
16 because, as I say, we cannot verify and we will never
17 allow the taking of any sample of the handwriting of
18 the accused.
19 The question is whether you also dispute the
20 contents of the agreement, leaving aside the question
21 of who signed it -- because we would never say in any case it was
22 signed by one of the accused. Do you also contest that
23 the agreement was signed, was made -- was made by the
24 two parties concerned?
25 MR. RADOVIC: We know nothing about that
1 agreement.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Then it cannot be
3 taken into account, and we will now give back the
4 document to the registrar.
5 I will now turn to the witness to thank him.
6 I think there is no objection to the witness being
7 released now in light of the ruling just made, and so I
8 will thank you for coming here to give evidence in
9 court. You may now be released.
10 (The witness withdrew)
11 JUDGE CASSESE: We should now come back to
12 the other witness, Mr. Nihad Rehibic.
13 Yes, Counsel Susak?
14 MR. SUSAK: Good morning, Your Lordships.
15 Mr. President, I have a question.
16 On the 7th of October this year, Witness DD
17 appeared before this Court. We have the statement of
18 her previous interview with the Tribunal's
19 investigator.
20 (The witness entered court)
21 MR. SUSAK: On the 5th and 15th of March.
22 That is, after the indictment was filed and confirmed.
23 Since the date on that statement is later than the date
24 of the indictment, we think that this is a very
25 important and serious case, and we are really, I think,
1 entitled to assume that this witness had already given
2 a statement to the Commission for War Crimes of the
3 B and H, and we have some working notes submitted to us
4 by the Prosecution of the 15th of July, '93, and refers
5 to the conflict in Ahmici.
6 Now, as that witness, in her testimony, says
7 that four persons had been killed by her house and
8 three houses and other buildings had been lit afire, I
9 assume that she had already been examined by the
10 Commission for the finding of facts on the perpetration
11 of crimes in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
12 and I should like to ask the Court, in view of the
13 evidence Rules -- or, rather, 74, to submit all of the
14 statements which this witness had given to that
15 Commission.
16 I believe it would be in the interests of
17 justice because the testimony, the statement of this
18 witness, runs completely contrary to what other
19 witnesses relative to other events said, and those were
20 statements which were given during 1995.
21 Thank you.
22 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, as far as
23 Witness DD is concerned, pursuant to an application
24 under Rule 66, we submitted to the Defence all the
25 statements we had, and indeed when this witness was
1 heard, we produced not a statement but notes, rather,
2 coming from an investigator, notes that were not
3 signed. The Tribunal asked for an affidavit. This
4 will be done tonight or tomorrow morning at the latest,
5 but probably tonight.
6 We transmitted all the elements we had at our
7 disposal. If there were other hearings from other
8 organisations, we have not been informed about these
9 hearings, and the Defence which is asserting this has
10 to verify this.
11 I think that as far as this witness is
12 concerned, we respected our obligations; therefore, I
13 don't understand the request of the Defence.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We think that the
15 position of the Prosecution is the right one. If they
16 did not know of any document or statement, they were
17 not in a position to turn over those statements to the
18 Defence, and it is for the Defence counsel to try to
19 get hold of those statements, either directly or
20 through the Court.
21 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, this is made
22 difficult for us. I just asked the Court that this be
23 prepared via the Court in the sense of Rule 74 of the
24 Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: What do you mean? Rule 74 on
1 amicus curiae?
2 MR. SUSAK: I wanted to propose,
3 Mr. President, that the Court should get from the State
4 of Bosnia and Herzegovina statements by this witness,
5 because the working notes say that she was questioned
6 by the Commission for War Crimes of Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina, so she was questioned concerning this
8 case.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So this is not
10 the relevant provision of our Rules of Procedure and
11 Evidence. So why don't you put in a request, a written
12 request, and we will comply with it and we will forward
13 your request to the authorities? If you wish, we will
14 say we are asking the authorities to provide that
15 document to the Court so that it can be used when it
16 comes to the Defence case, it will be useful for your
17 Defence when we open the Defence case in late November.
18 We would also like to ask you, in your
19 written request, to specify how many statements were
20 given by that witness to the Bosnian authorities and,
21 if possible, when, so that our request to the Bosnian
22 authorities will be quite accurate and specific. If
23 you have some details, I mean, any details would be
24 useful to the Court.
25 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We may now move
2 on to our witness. Now, let me check. Counsel
3 Slokovic-Glumac was to cross-examine the witness, and
4 meanwhile, she has had an opportunity, I hope, to go
5 through the hand-written list, HVO identification list.
6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you, Your
7 Honours. I will try to compare the two lists.
8 WITNESS: NIHAD REHIBIC (Resumed)
9 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yesterday we talked to
10 the witness, Mr. Moskowitz and myself, related to the
11 photocopying of these notes. We only thought that the
12 witness should say before the Court, relating to the
13 persons listed here as far as number 90 something.
14 There are some notes next to these numbers. We want to
15 ascertain who made these notes, these additional notes,
16 and how they were made, who they were verified with.
17 We want to hear this from the witness in order to avoid
18 possible misunderstandings later on. We would like to
19 hear that from him, how he made these notes, how he --
20 what he wrote in his own hand, and what was not the
21 original list.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Will you please answer
23 this question?
24 THE WITNESS: Yesterday I said on this day I
25 was tasked by the commander, Mr. Sefkija, to conduct
1 the action of the reception and burial of the bodies.
2 The procedure was explained by me. After the burial,
3 from the list I had received, I handed one copy to the
4 Commission and one I kept. I wrote the ordinal numbers
5 according to the list of the HVO. For non-identified
6 persons, bodies, I didn't write anything, I just wrote
7 the number. Where there was the first and last name, I
8 only took this information from the HVO list.
9 Later, for my own needs, I put some brackets
10 and noted where the corpses, the bodies, might have
11 come from. This was my personal view or finding.
12 Later, more bodies were brought by UNPROFOR, and I made
13 some notes, "charred body," et cetera. Two more
14 bodies were brought which were numbered which I also
15 wrote in my notes, and when I saw these numbers, I
16 compared in my notes that on those numbers there
17 already was some information, some description. Then I
18 went to the inspector to compare the two lists, and
19 then, in my list, when we did this comparison, on the
20 left side I marked where it was identical, the notes
21 were tallied and where they did not tally. Where they
22 were not the same -- in one case I made an error, it
23 seems to me. I didn't check carefully enough so ...
24 There were some discrepancies under the same
25 ordinal number, two persons, two bodies were brought.
1 These were my private notes, notes for myself, and then
2 I told Mr. Vatras that they should analyse in detail
3 the lists and also enter it into the documentation so
4 that the documents may be presented later on.
5 On that day, only on that day, I was tasked
6 to do that job because (redacted) wasn't able to
7 do it. He would have been too shaken by this.
8 The list that I showed the investigators I
9 took from the command of the brigade and added --
10 enclosed to the documents.
11 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:
12 Q. Was the list that you received from the HVO,
13 are these their ordinal numbers, their numbers? They
14 didn't have more, several lists.
15 A. I did say that there were two lists. One I
16 gave to the criminal department and one I kept.
17 Q. They were copies, not two separate lists, and
18 the numbers were the same as they are now in your
19 lists?
20 A. In one of the lists, not in the second, not
21 in the second.
22 Q. What is the second?
23 A. It was given to the service, to the
24 department which worked on the identification that day.
25 Q. All that is in brackets or outside the
1 brackets and identifies the places where the people
2 were found, these are your assumptions?
3 A. Yes, my personal assumption.
4 Q. Not confirmed. And you have no other data
5 which would determine the site where the corpses were
6 found?
7 A. No, I couldn't find that. I left Stari Vitez
8 on April the 4th, and I didn't deal with the case --
9 with this any more. I didn't feel the need to add any
10 information.
11 Q. All those parts, when you say Ahmici,
12 Santici, and when there is no identification of the
13 corpse, this is your own assumption?
14 A. Yes, it is my personal observation, my
15 personal note.
16 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Moskowitz? I
18 assume -- all Defence counsel have duly cross-examined
19 the witness, so we can see whether Mr. Moskowitz has
20 any re-examination.
21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes. Just a few questions,
22 Your Honour, if I may?
23 Re-examined by Mr. Moskowitz:
24 Q. I take it, Mr. Rehibic, that the day of the
25 burial was a very difficult day for you and other
1 people there?
2 A. Absolutely. Never in my life have I felt
3 worse that on that day.
4 Q. And it was a very difficult assignment to try
5 to bury a hundred people in a couple of hours and
6 establish some sort of identity for those people?
7 A. Certainly. We deviated from the plan, the
8 previous plan. We had planned to individually examine
9 every body to compare it to the list, to the records
10 that were given us, but we were short of time so that
11 the burial did not follow our original plan.
12 Q. So you, I take it, did the best job you
13 could, to try to make the best identification you could
14 of a hundred bodies in a couple of hours?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you relied on the identifications
17 provided to you by the HVO for the most part?
18 A. For the most part, we did use their
19 documents.
20 Q. Your notes here, as you fully admit, contain
21 some mistakes, but they were done quickly and they were
22 done as accurately as you could?
23 A. These notes are identical as concerns the
24 numbers, and the unknown persons, unknown bodies, were
25 in the list; there was an unidentified person, body, I
1 wrote the name. The other notes I made later without
2 any purpose, without intending to use it for any
3 definite purpose.
4 Q. Do you have those notes with you that you
5 could look at right now?
6 A. Yes, I do. Here are the notes.
7 Q. Now, looking at Sukrija Ahmic, which is
8 listed as number 6 in the list that your people did,
9 and it says, "Brought in as number 90," according to
10 the HVO list, could you look at your notes and see what
11 you have for number 90?
12 A. Under number 90, I have Ahmic Sukrija.
13 Q. And that identification would come from the
14 HVO? They identified this man as Sukrija Ahmic; is
15 that right?
16 A. Yes. Yes.
17 Q. And then under the typed list is Meho
18 Hrustanovic who was brought in as number 91. Who do
19 you have for number 91 on the HVO list?
20 A. Also Meho Hrustanovic. I have him also under
21 91.
22 Q. And again, that was a person identified by
23 the HVO?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the HVO, as far as you knew, they were
1 the ones that picked up these bodies?
2 A. Yes, the bodies were on the territory
3 controlled by the HVO and they collected the bodies.
4 Q. Then Aziz Pezer is listed as number 95 on the
5 HVO list. What do you have in your notes for 95?
6 A. Number 95 is Pezer Aziz.
7 Q. And then Sabahudin Zec is listed as number 96
8 on the HVO list. What do you have in your notes for
9 number 96?
10 A. In my notes too, number 96 is Zec Sabahudin.
11 Q. Number 53 on the HVO list is listed as an
12 unknown male. What do you have for number 53 on your
13 HVO list?
14 A. Number 53 I have nothing. This was unknown,
15 NN. In such cases, I didn't write in anything. I just
16 wrote the number.
17 Q. And with regard to those that were unknown,
18 were there further attempts after the burial and after
19 this list was compiled, to try to identify, as best you
20 could, those unknown people?
21 A. Later, when we finished the burial, I didn't
22 take an active part in the identification. When I left
23 the town, when I went to my family, who were refugees,
24 displaced persons, in talking to people I heard that
25 under 68, Ibrahim Karic was alive. I crossed him out
1 without further verification. This was my personal
2 note. I didn't feel the need to inquire further
3 because there was a service, a special service, for
4 that.
5 I also heard about another person who was
6 still alive and who was listed as dead and I also wrote
7 it in my notes.
8 Q. And these mistakes of listing people who were
9 dead that were, in fact, still alive, those were
10 mistakes on the HVO list; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So the HVO made mistakes too, didn't they?
13 A. These are the identical data from the HVO
14 list that I received on the day of the burial. Without
15 these additional notes, subsequent notes.
16 Q. Just a couple more. Fahrudin Ahmic, son of
17 Hasim, is listed as number 57 in the HVO list, in the
18 list that your team drafted. What do you have in your
19 notes for number 57?
20 A. I also have Ahmic Fahrudin listed as 57.
21 Q. Now, look at number 38 and see if there is a
22 mistake there. Not number 38 in your list, but look at
23 Abdulah Brko, brought in as number 23 from the HVO
24 list -- that is the information we have on the typed
25 list that was submitted by your team that this Abdulah
1 Brko was brought in as number 23. Who do you have as
2 number 23 on the HVO list?
3 A. This is the number where under the same
4 number two bodies were brought, Redzib Halib is on this
5 list.
6 Q. Is that possibly an error or is there an
7 explanation you can provide for why, on the typed list,
8 Brko Abdulah is listed as number 23 on the HVO list
9 whereas on your notes 23 is a different person, Halib
10 Redzib?
11 A. It is probably an error in the list we
12 received.
13 Q. Yes. And if you look at the typed list,
14 Halib Redzib is the next person listed and he also,
15 that body also is said to have been brought in as
16 number 23 on the HVO list. So it appears that there
17 bodies were brought under the same number 23 from the
18 HVO list. Apparently some error was made either with
19 the HVO list or with your list.
20 A. Our list couldn't contain errors because when
21 we received the bodies and when we buried them, we
22 marked with numbers the buried bodies according to the
23 HVO list, which was in the possession of the
24 inspector. The list I had was of this content, and the
25 inspector's notes are the same as those of the army of
1 the criminal police, of the army.
2 Q. Now, you mentioned a little while ago Ibrahim
3 Karic who was brought in or apparently brought in by
4 the HVO and listed as number 68 on the HVO list, number
5 51 on the typed list. What do you have if your notes
6 for Ibrahim Karic? What number was he on the HVO list?
7 A. On this list, Ibrahim Karic was 68.
8 Q. But that was a mistake because he, in fact,
9 was not dead?
10 A. I can't confirm, I can't say "Yes" or "No."
11 When I left Stari Vitez, I heard from people that he is
12 alive, but I didn't check it. I didn't pursue the
13 matter.
14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: No more questions. Thank
15 you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I have only a
17 couple of questions, minor questions, on your notebook.
18 On pages 12 and 13, if you could pick up your
19 notebook? I see that there is a different handwriting
20 from the one on the previous pages. Could you tell me
21 whose handwriting this was?
22 A. It is my handwriting.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Even on page 12 and 13?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: And then on each page, I saw
1 that some numbers have been ticked off by you, say on page
2 7, numbers 18, 19, 20. Then the next page, number 22
3 and 23. And then page 9, almost all of these numbers.
4 What does this ticking off mean?
5 A. Today I already said that on the day of the
6 burial, 94 bodies were buried. UNPROFOR brought more
7 bodies to the cemetery, to the burial ground. When two
8 bodies were brought which were marked as 70 and 69,
9 then in my notes I looked at numbers 69 and 70 to see
10 what was there. At 69, I had Pjanic Muhamed and 70 was
11 Ahmic Munib. The bodies were brought by UNPROFOR
12 without any data, without any data. This prompted me
13 to ask the inspector to compare the two lists we had on
14 the first day of the burial. We started this
15 comparison. And on my list, I ticked off those numbers
16 where the data were identical in the two lists, the
17 inspector's list and the one that I kept for myself and
18 from which I made my notes. Where they were identical,
19 I put these ticks, I ticked them off, and when I --
20 when they were not identical, I stopped doing it, and
21 the inspector continued with the comparison.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. I
23 think there is no objection to the witness being
24 released.
25 Mr. Rehibic, thank you for giving evidence.
1 You may now be released. Thank you.
2 (The witness withdrew)
3 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We will break now
4 for coffee until twenty-five past eleven, and the next
5 witness will be Mr. Kujawinski?
6 MR. TERRIER: It will be Witness No. 8 on the
7 list, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: We need a number for the
9 notes. These, I assume, have been admitted into
10 evidence. I don't remember whether we decided anything
11 on this matter.
12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We will formally offer it
13 into evidence at this point.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: So it is Prosecution
15 Exhibit ...
16 THE REGISTRAR: Number 314.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: So these are the notes.
18 (The witness entered court)
19 JUDGE CASSESE: I am afraid we will break
20 now, and, I'm sorry, you will come back in 30 minutes.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.55 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
23 (The witness entered court)
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Tucker.
25 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please make the
2 solemn declaration?
3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
5 truth.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
7 seated.
8 WITNESS: HOWARD TUCKER
9 Examined by Mr. Terrier:
10 Q. Mr. Witness, can you tell the Court what is
11 your name and your position at the moment?
12 A. Your Honours, my name is Howard Tucker. I'm
13 a British police officer on secondment to the Criminal
14 Tribunal. I'm employed as an investigator for the
15 Office of the Prosecutor. My experience is I'm a
16 police officer, 27 years' experience, 23 years as a
17 detective officer.
18 Q. Mr. Witness, recently you executed a mission
19 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and to be more precise, in
20 Ahmici; is that true?
21 A. Yes, Your Honours, that's correct.
22 MR. TERRIER: One of the tasks you were
23 assigned was to measure some distances in Ahmici, and I
24 will ask the usher to submit two documents to you.
25 THE REGISTRAR: The map is Exhibit 315 and
1 the list is 316.
2 MR. TERRIER:
3 Q. Sir, on the first document, Exhibit 315, we
4 can see an aerial photograph of Ahmici, and on this
5 photograph, in metres, we can see a certain number of
6 distances.
7 A. Yes, Your Honours.
8 Q. Did you do these measurements yourself, and
9 if so, how did you proceed?
10 A. Yes, I took the measurements myself, Your
11 Honours, and it was a combination of two methods: one
12 was by use of a motor vehicle and the use of the
13 tropometer of that vehicle, and of other method was to
14 pace some of the distances myself.
15 Q. The second document, Exhibit 316, is the
16 summary of all the distances that were indicated on the
17 aerial photograph.
18 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
19 MR. TERRIER: I will ask Mr. Usher to submit
20 three photographs to the witness.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibits 317, 318, and 319.
22 MR. TERRIER:
23 Q. Sir, another task that was assigned to you
24 was to look for and photograph a place where vegetables
25 and fruits were stored. This place had been mentioned
1 by a witness during these proceedings. And this has to
2 do with the death of Fata Pezer. Did you manage to
3 find this place and where did you find it?
4 A. Yes, Your Honours. After a short search of
5 the area, in front of the house that I know as House B,
6 I found this actual structure. The distance is
7 approximately 30 metres from the front of House B,
8 below the ground level, in an area that is surrounded
9 by vegetation and a small fruit orchard, and it was
10 actually well-hidden from view at that time.
11 Q. What does the photograph which has been put
12 on the ELMO represent?
13 A. That is the actual entrance to the structure
14 I'd describe as being a fruit store. It was hidden by
15 undergrowth, natural undergrowth. Not hidden as such,
16 but not visible because of natural undergrowth. The
17 door to the structure is actually open and that is
18 actually how it was when I came across it.
19 Q. Can photograph 318 be put on the ELMO,
20 please? What does this photograph depict and where was
21 it taken from?
22 A. I was actually standing in front of the
23 structure I've just described, Your Honours. The
24 structure is to my left, and I'm actually facing a
25 house which is -- which I've identified as House 51
1 from the map that I understand Your Honours have seen.
2 It is facing the general direction of the lower mosque
3 of Ahmici.
4 Q. Thank you very much. The next photograph,
5 please? What does this photograph depict and where did
6 you take it from?
7 A. Your Honours, I'm still standing at this
8 position in front of the structure. I'm standing with
9 my right-hand side to the entranceway, I'm looking in
10 the general direction of Upper Ahmici at this point,
11 directly the opposite way to the last photograph.
12 Q. The place of which the photograph you've
13 taken, is it the place that existed before, that is, on
14 April the 16th, 1993, or were there some changes in the
15 landscape?
16 A. The landscape, as I understand it, has
17 changed quite considerably from as it was in 1993, and
18 in this particular photograph, you can see evidence of
19 the changes. The ground that you see directly in front
20 of you where that tree is has been earth movements, it
21 has been back-filled, is the best way I can describe
22 it, into the area immediately in front of this
23 structure.
24 Q. How far, approximately, was the door of the
25 fruit store from the House number 51, the house we saw
1 on picture 318, the previous photograph, I mean? How
2 far was it?
3 A. I would estimate that that's about 35 to 40
4 metres.
5 MR. TERRIER: Mr. Usher, can we have the big
6 photograph, the big aerial photograph, which is behind
7 you, and could you submit this photograph to the
8 witness, please?
9 Q. Sir, using the pointer, could you show
10 approximately, since we don't have a very precise map,
11 where the entrance to the fruit store is on this aerial
12 photograph?
13 A. Yes, Your Honours. It's approximately in
14 that spot here, at the base of the hill, House B, just
15 about that area (indicating).
16 MR. TERRIER: Thank you. I would now ask
17 Mr. Usher to show you seven photographs.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibits 320 to 326.
19 MR. TERRIER:
20 Q. Sir, could you please review briefly the
21 seven photographs and make the remarks that you deem
22 necessary, but first of all, we would like to know
23 where these photographs were taken, where from, and
24 what they depict generally, and maybe you could show,
25 using the aerial photograph, the places where the
1 pictures were taken from?
2 A. Yes, Your Honour. I was asked to try to
3 locate a position that was known as a bridge or
4 something similar near to the junction of Ahmici which
5 had a gully or something similar running underneath
6 it. The location was pointed out to me before I went
7 away to Bosnia, so I knew roughly the location of the
8 gully, and this is the location of that particular
9 item. It's about 200 metres east of the junction with
10 Ahmici. The position roughly -- the exact position on
11 the map, overhead map, is this point here.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 A. My apologies. The gully runs in this
14 direction and passes under the road at this point and
15 continues in the direction as depicted on the map.
16 The first photograph, which is --
17 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, we
18 cannot see anything that the witness is showing. I
19 mean, the way he's sitting, we simply cannot see a
20 thing on this photograph, or what he is pointing to.
21 So whether we may stand up or something, we simply
22 cannot see this photograph.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you move the
24 photograph? Is that better?
25 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes.
1 A. To start again, Your Honours -- is that
2 better?
3 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes.
4 A. This is the gully I was referring to to Their
5 Honours. It passes under the road at this point and
6 then continues its journey, as you can see from the
7 aerial map. The distance I estimate from here to the
8 junction of Ahmici is about 200 metres, and the first
9 photograph is taken looking in the general direction of
10 this structure here (indicating), taken from this
11 point, and showing the south side of the gully itself.
12 And from the photograph, the gully passes under the
13 road at this point adjacent to that blue vehicle.
14 The second photograph is taken from the same
15 spot but actually facing the south side of the road to
16 show the point where the gully passes under the road,
17 and you can see as a point of reference this item here
18 is a crash barrier which is actually -- it's broken and
19 laying on the roadside, but at that point that is where
20 the gully exits on the south side of the road.
21 The next photograph, I'm actually standing
22 alongside the structure which is the broken crash
23 barrier and looking into the gully itself. At this
24 point here is where it exits from underneath the
25 roadway and continues its journey.
1 And the following photograph is seen from a
2 similar position but actually showing the route of what
3 is or was at this time a very small stream or brook at
4 the base of the gully with a small amount of water
5 running through it.
6 This photograph is taken on the opposite side
7 of the road to the last one, so I'm back onto the north
8 side of the road looking into the gully, the direct
9 opposite of the photograph I showed just now, and this
10 is generally the gully itself actually going back
11 upwards in the general direction of the village of
12 Ahmici, and it just shows the vegetation and the
13 general route of the gully itself.
14 And then the last two photographs -- I'll
15 show them separately first but then they can be
16 overlaid to give a general idea of the terrain
17 itself -- this is again from the south side of the road
18 (indicating). That's the fallen crash barrier and the
19 actual brook, stream exits under the road at about this
20 point here and continues its journey. And that's just
21 a continuation --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are asking
23 you to slow down a little bit, if you can, please?
24 A. Yes. And this final photograph is a
25 continuation of the previous, and it can be overlaid at
1 a point like that to roughly show the route of the
2 ravine and -- I beg your pardon -- the gully and the
3 stream as it leaves the underside of the road.
4 MR. TERRIER: Thank you. I would like to
5 remind the Court that this place has something to do
6 with the statement of Abdulah Ahmic.
7 Q. What was the height between the bottom of the
8 gully and the road itself?
9 A. Approximately 4 metres to the base where the
10 stream was, Your Honours.
11 Q. Thank you. I would like now Prosecution
12 Exhibit 208 to be submitted to the witness, and I would
13 like you to mark on this exhibit -- this is an aerial
14 photograph, Ahmici aerial photograph -- to mark the two
15 sites that you took pictures of.
16 MR. TERRIER: Maybe you could put it on the
17 desk because the witness is going to mark it.
18 Q. I will now ask you to mark where the fruit
19 store was that you indicated before with an arrow and
20 with letter "A" please, as precisely as you can, of
21 course.
22 A. (Marks)
23 Q. And then could you please mark the gully
24 where it goes under the road with an arrow and with
25 letter "B"?
1 A. (Marks)
2 MR. TERRIER: Thank you. Could we have this
3 document put on the easel so the Defence counsel can
4 see the marks put by the witness?
5 JUDGE CASSESE: We can't see the marks.
6 THE WITNESS: Point "A" (indicating) and
7 Point "B" showing the route of the gully under the road
8 (indicating).
9 MR. TERRIER:
10 Q. Thank you. Another of your tasks was to look
11 in Bosnia, and particularly in Zenica, to look for the
12 original of a video cassette of a witness. This
13 witness was questioned at the hospital when he was
14 getting treatment for burns on his hands. Can you tell
15 us if you managed to locate the original of this video
16 cassette?
17 A. Your Honours, not during my time in Bosnia,
18 no.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?
20 MR. RADOVIC: We are, let us say, satisfied
21 with the answer to the question as to whether the
22 original of the tape will be obtained, but we should
23 like to present our attitude as regards that tape, if
24 you like. So we shall admit -- we shall recognise that
25 Sakib Ahmic gave an interview, what we have been told
1 was a part of his interview, but we are affirming that
2 it is not the whole of the interview, I mean the part
3 that we saw on the tape that was shown us is not the
4 whole of the interview which Sakib Ahmic gave.
5 I'm sorry for this interruption, but we
6 simply thought we should mention it now when we come to
7 the tape.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Will you be in a position,
9 Counsel Radovic, to get hold of the original of this
10 document, of the videotape? Do you think you may? No.
11 MR. RADOVIC: Unfortunately -- I mean, we
12 tried to get something, anything, regarding the
13 subject, and without success. But we are happy that
14 the Prosecution can provide us with at least a part of
15 this videotape so that we know that it is in existence,
16 as we were trying to do it through witnesses who had
17 seen the programme. Now we shall use the witnesses to
18 refer to the rest of the tape which has not been shown
19 to the Court.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
21 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I am not sure I
22 quite understood what Counsel Radovic said. I would
23 like to underline the fact that Counsel Radovic is now
24 saying that the witness we are talking about was
25 questioned longer than what is shown on the video that
1 was presented to the Court. We don't have any evidence
2 of this. This is an assertion made by Counsel Radovic
3 to this Chamber. Maybe he can prove this. But at this
4 stage, today, it's only an assertion by Counsel
5 Radovic.
6 Q. I would like to ask some clarification to the
7 witness. Even though he didn't locate the original,
8 which would be a video except longer than the one we
9 obtained through the witness, he managed nevertheless
10 to find a videotape which has a number of complimentary
11 elements, so could you please tell us what you found
12 there?
13 A. Your Honours, as a result of the inquiries I
14 started in Bosnia, the result was that a tape is being
15 presented through the internal workings in Bosnia and
16 has arrived here. It's an almost identical duplicate
17 of the one the Court has already seen, but it actually
18 shows a short conversation -- introduced a short
19 conversation introduced by the interviewer of the
20 witness. Unfortunately, we don't know the identity yet
21 of that interviewer, but what that interviewer has said
22 has been translated, and I think Mr. Prosecutor has a
23 copy of that translation and the original Bosnian as
24 well.
25 MR. TERRIER: Yes. We are going to hand to
1 this Chamber and to Defence counsel, first of all, the
2 videotape the witness has just talked about, a
3 transcript of the several sentences that were not in
4 the first videotape and that you will hear at the
5 beginning of the videotape, and finally, minutes, so to
6 speak, which were given to the Prosecutor of this
7 videotape which was signed not only by the Prosecutor
8 which received the document but also by Saharik Assan
9 (phoen), President of the Investigative Commission on
10 War Crimes and a Minister of the Interior in Zenica.
11 So there are three documents, the cassette, the
12 transcript, and the minutes, which I shall now hand to
13 the Chamber through this testimony. We indicated that
14 there may be an original, that this original may be
15 constituted of other declarations; however, we did not
16 manage to locate so far this video, if it exists. But,
17 of course, we asked our investigators to go on looking
18 for this document in Central Bosnia.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Do you have more
20 details on where this cassette comes from? Who filmed
21 the interview?
22 MR. TERRIER: In fact, we don't know
23 precisely which organisation, official or other, filmed
24 this interview, why, and we don't know either if this
25 film was broadcast and when. But I may ask the
1 question to the witness ...
2 Q. Sir, did you obtain information about the
3 person or the organisation which filmed the interview
4 of the witness and for what purpose?
5 A. Your Honours, unfortunately, it was not
6 possible to find out who or why the film was taken.
7 There are two possibilities if it was an officially
8 televised programme. One is by a local Central Bosnian
9 television organisation, and there's a suggestion that
10 it may well have been an outside Croatian broadcast as
11 well, and this has been part of the difficulty in
12 trying to establish exactly who, why, and when the film
13 footage was taken. The search is still continuing and
14 we are still hopeful that we will be able to resolve
15 the problem.
16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Terrier, for clarification,
17 is this tape you referred to Exhibit 157, at least the
18 transcript is 157, I think? Could we be told what this
19 is an addition to?
20 MR. TERRIER: Yes, it is, Your Honour.
21 However, the tape we are now giving to the Court is the
22 same videotape with a comment which was not on the
23 first exhibit, that is, on Exhibit 157, but the witness
24 is saying the same thing.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but I think this
1 cassette was shown already because one of the witnesses
2 told us that he was told that we had seen the videotape
3 and that Sakib Ahmic had been seen on the film, so
4 maybe it was broadcast on the local TV channel. So I'm
5 wondering if it's really necessary to express an
6 official request. Maybe the Tribunal could ask the
7 Bosnian authorities to provide the original of this
8 tape or a copy of the whole video cassette.
9 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, may I interrupt
10 one second?
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please.
12 THE WITNESS: The request you have just made
13 I have already made to the Bosnian authorities and that
14 is actually in hand at the moment.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
16 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions.
17 THE REGISTRAR: The video is Exhibit 327, the
18 transcript is 327A, and the minutes are 327B.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Judge May has a good point.
20 JUDGE MAY: I suggest it be added to 157 in
21 some way so that it is all part of the same exhibit.
22 157B or ...
23 THE REGISTRAR: Then the whole set will be
24 157A? Is that okay? 157A for the video, the
25 transcript, and the minutes.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: So you are finished,
2 Mr. Terrier?
3 MR. TERRIER: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac, do
5 you want to speak to one of the accused?
6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: No, Your Honour. I
7 understand what they want. They want -- they don't
8 want something to be entered into evidence that they
9 didn't see. They don't know what the cassette
10 contains. They haven't seen it. They are just
11 checking what it is, and that's all right.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: You're right. Let us show,
13 yes, the video cassette. Yes.
14 Counsel Radovic?
15 MR. RADOVIC: I can say before we see the
16 video cassette, we see from the text that we have been
17 given by the Prosecution, we see the content of the
18 introductory part. We now say that we don't have the
19 whole cassette because the final part is missing. What
20 we have been given shows us that the first cassette was
21 not complete, not the complete interview. It was cut
22 to suit the needs of the person who had it. The
23 introductory part shows us that the whole video
24 cassette was not submitted, but we are interested in
25 the final part, which we don't have.
1 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I would like to
2 repeat it once more. It has not been proven that there
3 is another part to this video cassette. That is what
4 Counsel Radovic says. But it has not been proven so
5 far, and we didn't find any elements that tend to prove
6 it. Of course, if the Chamber wants to show the video
7 so that Defence counsel know exactly what we have
8 tendered -- but there is a transcript of the
9 introduction of the sequence that was not on the
10 original Exhibit 157. But if they want to see the
11 videotape, I think it would be possible, it's just two
12 minutes, two and a half minutes, so that could be a
13 possibility, yes.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?
15 MR. RADOVIC: I said that the final part was
16 missing not off the cuff because when we were looking
17 for our Defence witnesses, we knew of the existence of
18 the programme, and we were looking for people who saw
19 it because we didn't know whether we would get the
20 tape, and the evidence of our witnesses -- we have
21 found three or four such persons who came from Zenica
22 to Vitez -- they will tell us what the end of the tape
23 contained. So I'm not saying something that I haven't
24 thought about.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Let us now show
1 the videotape.
2 (Videotape played)
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry. I didn't really
4 understand. Which is the part of the video that was
5 not included in the original?
6 MR. TERRIER: It's the very brief comment at
7 the very beginning of the videotape, but we don't see
8 the author of this comment, and this is the transcript
9 that we obtained from the document.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Pavkovic,
11 who is going to cross-examine the witness?
12 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, the witness will
13 be cross-examined by Ranko Radovic, Jadranka
14 Slokovic-Glumac, and Borislav Krajina.
15 MR. RADOVIC: I will be very brief and I will
16 put just a few technical questions.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:
18 Q. Tell us, when you went to Vitez, you had the
19 task of measuring certain distances, if I understood
20 your task, the purpose of your going to Vitez, that is,
21 to Ahmici?
22 A. That was part of it, yes, sir.
23 Q. In order to do this task, what technical
24 equipment were you carrying?
25 A. I had no technical equipment, sir.
1 Q. I'm asking you this because I am surprised.
2 In your report you say that you carried out the
3 measurement with your -- with your -- walking or with a
4 device that is on the car, a distance measurer. What
5 do surveyors use?
6 A. I have no idea.
7 Q. There is a metal meter which is dragged on
8 the ground in order to obtain the precise
9 measurements. Do you know what is used in traffic
10 accidents to measure distances?
11 A. I know what's used in traffic accidents, sir,
12 but the object of this exercise was for an approximate
13 distance, not a precise distance.
14 Q. When you went to the scene, why was it
15 problematic to take precise measurements? because for
16 some matters this may be of great importance, a
17 difference of 50 metres may play a great role.
18 Explain, please, why you went to do this measurement
19 without any equipment.
20 A. It wasn't my task. My task was to take
21 approximate measurements, sir, which is what I did.
22 Q. Approximate measurements. All right. I'm
23 satisfied with your answer, but I'm not satisfied with
24 a situation in which a person travels to carry out
25 measurements, there is equipment, and that person
1 doesn't have it.
2 MR. TERRIER: (No translation)
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, there is no
4 English translation.
5 MR. TERRIER (in English): I just wanted to
6 say that the distances on the map are not proven to be
7 wrong at this time, so there is no argument possible
8 now from Mr. Radovic. That is all.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: No, but Mr. Radovic is
10 arguing - and I think that this is a good point - that
11 these are not accurate distances. The measurements
12 were not accurate, were approximate. And his point is,
13 why did the investigator go there just to give us
14 approximate measurements?
15 MR. TERRIER: Approximate, not exact. We are
16 not in a technical situation; it is not an air crash or
17 a traffic accident where we are concerned about
18 centimetres and inches. It was not the right attitude
19 but we thought that it was the procedure we had to
20 follow.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Radovic?
22 MR. RADOVIC: If we are talking about
23 distances, I am not talking about centimetres, I am
24 talking about metres, dozens of metres. If you make
25 such a long trip, go on such a long trip, then it's
1 worth doing it properly. All witnesses talked about
2 approximate distances. We didn't need an expert to
3 ascertain approximate distances.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Let us now leave aside any
5 methodological dispute. You may question the method,
6 but what matters is whether or not the distances are
7 accurate. If you dispute anything, we can check with
8 modern technical equipment.
9 My colleagues are suggesting that you can do
10 that.
11 MR. RADOVIC: Even with old-fashioned
12 devices, the iron meter that you used to drag on the
13 ground.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Thank you,
15 Counsel Radovic.
16 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?
17 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you, Your
18 Honours.
19 Cross-examined by Slokovic-Glumac:
20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tucker. It seems to me
21 that there are other errors here. It is not only a
22 matter of distance. The instructions you were given
23 are not too precise.
24 Point 4, item 4, point 4, you do have the map
25 in front of you? Point 4. Point 4. What is marked on
1 the map?
2 A. Point 4 at this location.
3 Q. Tell us, what, according to you, is it?
4 A. That's the location of a structure called the
5 Sutre warehouse.
6 Q. Sutre warehouse is on another -- in another
7 part. This is a company called Ogrjev Fuel. This is
8 quite a different site. The measurements were done in
9 relation to this spot, in relation to several
10 locations, from the crossroads towards Ahmici, Sutre
11 warehouse, towards Santici on several occasions, and it
12 is obvious that the site it wrong, that this is wrong.
13 Do you agree with me?
14 A. If you say that's an oil -- an oil warehouse
15 did you say, Ma'am? An oil warehouse? Then I won't
16 dispute that.
17 [The following passage is mixed
18 interpretation, i.e. two interpreters speaking
19 intermittently]
20 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I don't
21 understand. This point marked 4 exists on the ground.
22 It was measured in relation to other points ... what it
23 represents, but it doesn't really matter. It's just
24 the fact that he put on the map measurements that he
25 took on the ground.
1 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I don't understand. It
2 is not clear to me. Sutre warehouse is number 4.
3 Q. Isn't that so?
4 JUDGE CASSESE: No, there was a mistake.
5 There is really a mistake.
6 What counts is the distance from number 4 to
7 number 3.
8 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: That is precisely where
9 the Sutre warehouse is. It is on that parking lot from
10 the Sutre warehouse which is located on that white area
11 to Ahmici, to the road, and the road to Ahmici, the
12 distance is more than 400 metres if the gentleman
13 measured from the point on the road.
14 Q. Isn't that so?
15 A. The points that I have measured are from 1 to
16 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 4, 4 to 5, and 5 to 6, irrespective of
17 what the locations are called, Ma'am.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
19 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
20 Q. That's right. Did you measure from 3 to 10,
21 because Sutre warehouse is at number 10?
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. From 3 to 7, from 7 to
23 16? Did you measure this -- 300 metres are from number
24 7 to number 16?
25 A. That's correct, Your Honour, yes, 7 to 16.
1 The measurements then run from point 3 to point 7,
2 point 7 to point 8, 8 to 9, and then we have 7 to 16,
3 and then we have 10 to 11, 11 to 12, 12 to 13, 10 to
4 14, 14 to 15, and 15 to 16.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
7 Q. That's walking along the road or along the
8 paths. That's how you did it?
9 A. In which part, Ma'am?
10 Q. Everywhere. You are going from number to
11 number. You are walking on the road or roads or the
12 paths.
13 A. Either walking or in a vehicle, Ma'am.
14 Q. I don't understand. I'm interested in the
15 following -- these distances are very important for
16 us. They are essential. You said the distance from
17 number 5, the crossroads towards Santici --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- to the Sutre warehouse, which is at number
20 4, this is 400 metres --
21 JUDGE MAY: Will you please listen? The
22 point is that there is a mistake about the Sutre
23 warehouse. It is not the Sutre warehouse, it is point
24 4. The way to look at this is simply to look at the
25 numbers and not be concerned with the description on
1 Exhibit 315.
2 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: All right. That's what
3 I wanted to say in one part, and in the other part I
4 wanted to say ...
5 Q. How do we get distances by adding them up?
6 How do we get -- and that's why I asked whether these
7 measurements are made by using the roads and the
8 paths. Were the movements along the road or along the
9 path? That's what I wanted to ask.
10 A. Generally or in any particular point?
11 Q. In relation to points 16 to 15.
12 A. That last stretch from 15 to 16 is an
13 approximation, and the reason for that was there was a
14 heavily overgrown in the areas of the footpath, and
15 that is an approximation.
16 Q. And 15 to 14 also, where there are no paths,
17 I suppose, I expect that you had to approximate, you
18 had to determine the distances approximately.
19 A. Yes. The point 14 to 15 is an
20 approximation. Point 10 to 14 is paced out.
21 Q. One more thing. This also belongs to
22 methodology. What did the Prosecutor mean when he
23 marked certain positions? Under "M," you have House
24 B. This has to be checked on the large map, up to
25 point 14. Which object was marked as point 14? We
1 don't know what distance the Prosecution was
2 determining there.
3 A. The point of reference was left really to me
4 when I went up there to see exactly what the lay of the
5 land was. That point of reference, 10 to 14, point 14
6 represents something I can really describe as a rough
7 footpath and where the footpath naturally bends. It
8 seemed to be the easiest point of reference to be able
9 to refer to the overhead map.
10 Q. This means that number 14 is that bend on the
11 path, on the footpath?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. What about point 15?
14 A. Point 15 is a similar situation where the
15 bend in the path, it doubles back down towards number
16 16, and there's another footpath that abuts it at that
17 point, at number 15.
18 Q. Point 16 was -- what was there? Was there
19 the end of something? Was there a house, a facility, a
20 warehouse, a parking lot, since it is not marked
21 precisely and there are several objects or facilities
22 there?
23 A. At the corner of that particular warehouse,
24 where the red number 1 is, virtually at the top of that
25 1, at that number 1.
1 Q. That is the corner of the warehouse?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In fact, you were measuring from the point --
4 the end of the arrow, not according to numbers but
5 according to the arrows?
6 A. The arrow shows the direction of the route
7 taken or the anticipated route. It doesn't actually
8 point to the end of the route itself.
9 Q. We don't know it then. Tell us, number 1,
10 point 1, where did you start from? Is it a bungalow,
11 or is this the end of the map?
12 A. The structure at number 1 is an actual lay-by
13 in front of what I understand used to be the building
14 known as the Bungalow, and that point actually started
15 from the end of that lay-by, which is approximately
16 where the arrow is there now.
17 Q. This point is on the map, where the structure
18 was earlier, the house, or is it outside the map,
19 because you used the map you were given?
20 A. Yes, the map that I had was a larger-scale
21 map to this, but, yes, where the number 1 is, that is
22 at the location where the structure of the Bungalow
23 was.
24 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you very much.
25 We are satisfied with ...
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Krajina?
2 MR. KRAJINA: Your Lordship, my colleagues
3 have gone into this in considerable detail, but I shall
4 be very brief.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Krajina:
6 Q. Sir, could you please tell us if you have any
7 surveying training. What are you by profession?
8 A. I am a police officer by profession.
9 Q. Have you been trained in land surveying? Are
10 you an expert in these matters?
11 A. I have no training in land surveying at all,
12 sir.
13 Q. Thank you. I have another question. You
14 said you measured and on the photograph you show
15 altitude distances around the gully. I think you were
16 talking about these. So how did you calculate or how
17 did you estimate the altitude differences?
18 A. Just by my observation, sir.
19 Q. Naked eye. By observation. You didn't use
20 any aids or anything?
21 A. No, sir, that's correct.
22 Q. Right. Thank you. Just one more question.
23 Here you made a photograph of that fruit store, I
24 believe it is Exhibit 317, and did you do any
25 measurements around that fruit store?
1 A. I did no measurements around the fruit store
2 itself, no, sir.
3 Q. So you wouldn't know its size or anything;
4 you didn't go into it?
5 A. No, I didn't go into it, no, sir.
6 MR. KRAJINA: Right. Thank you. I have no
7 further questions. I should merely like to add that
8 when we begin adducing our evidence, we shall bring in
9 a professional, an expert, and we shall do it whenever
10 this is of relevance for the Defence of our client,
11 Mr. Vlatko Kupreskic, together with maps, surveying
12 data, and all that. It will all be done very
13 professionally. Thank you.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier?
15 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions for
16 the witness. Thank you.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: I assume there is no
18 objection to the witness being released?
19 Mr. Tucker, thank you for coming here to give
20 evidence. You may be released.
21 (The witness withdrew)
22 JUDGE CASSESE: We will adjourn now until
23 2.00, and I hope at 2.00 we can quickly examine and
24 cross-examine your last witness and then maybe move on
25 to the Status Conference so that we can dispose of the
1 Status Conference this afternoon.
2 Again, let me repeat, if you have any
3 questions or suggestions about the on-site visit, tell
4 us this afternoon.
5 So we will adjourn now until 2.00.
6 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.38 p.m.
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1 --- On resuming at 2.15 p.m.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. I wish to
3 apologise for the delay, short delay. We had a
4 meeting.
5 Counsel Pavkovic?
6 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good afternoon, Your
7 Lordship. Perhaps this is the right time, before the
8 witness is brought in, to hear from the Prosecution
9 about the evidence we tendered. I am referring to the
10 certificate about the telephone call, the translation
11 of all this, and then you said that the Prosecution --
12 I will say whether they object to it after they saw the
13 text both in the Bosnian language and the translation.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, was D5/6. We had the --
15 we were provided with the English text, and Counsel
16 Pavkovic is right in asking whether the Prosecution has
17 had the opportunity to check.
18 MR. TERRIER: I have no objection.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: So it is admitted, both the
20 English and the original Croatian version.
21 Since we are talking of evidence, Exhibits --
22 the registrar kindly drew our attention to the need to
23 formally admit into evidence the various statements
24 made by the witness -- Witness SA, and you will be
25 given copies, I understand, at the coffee break, and it
1 will be Court Exhibit C1 through C6, six statements.
2 So we have just been given copies, and you
3 will receive copies at the coffee break.
4 Okay. So we can move on to re-examination of
5 the witness, Mr. Tucker.
6 Do you have other questions for the witness?
7 MR. TERRIER: No, no, no. We're finished
8 with Mr. Tucker. This is another witness.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Oh, sorry. I'm a bit tired.
10 I'm sorry. So we are going to hear the other witness,
11 Mr. Kujawinski.
12 (The witness entered court)
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon.
14 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Will you please make the
16 solemn declaration?
17 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
18 do so faithfully, independently, impartially --
19 JUDGE CASSESE: That is a pledge I think for
20 Judges.
21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
23 truth.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
25 seated.
1 Mr. Terrier?
2 WITNESS: ANDRE KUJAWINSKI
3 Examined by Mr. Terrier:
4 Q. Sir, good afternoon. Before we start, I
5 would like you to tell the Judges what your name and
6 your age is?
7 A. My name is Andre Kujawinski, and I am 33
8 years of age.
9 Q. You are a member of the British army. Can
10 you tell us more precisely what are your current
11 activities?
12 A. At present, I am a CQMS, which is in charge
13 of logistics within a company which is 120 in strength,
14 within my unit, which is the 22nd Cheshire regiment.
15 Q. Could you describe to the Judges your
16 professional career and your military experience?
17 A. I've been in the army 15 years, taking one
18 year's basic training, moving from there to Northern
19 Ireland for a six-month tour, then moving out to Hong
20 Kong for a two-year tour to visit places like Brunei,
21 to do exercises. I was then promoted to a lance
22 corporal at the end of the Hong Kong tour. Then we
23 moved to Caetrim to undertake public duties of guarding
24 the Queen. Whilst there, doing career courses and was
25 promoted to Corporal. I then went to the depot to
1 train and instruct recruits to join the army for a
2 two-year tour. Whilst I was there, I did my next
3 career courses to become a sergeant. Returned to my
4 unit. They were in Chester. And then I was promoted
5 to a sergeant as we went to Germany, to Fallingbastel,
6 where I commanded then a platoon of 30 or so in
7 strength.
8 Whilst in Germany, we were posted to a
9 six-month tour to Bosnia. After that tour and after
10 Germany, I was then posted, again as a sergeant, to a
11 careers office to recruit people into the army, for the
12 regiment and for the army as a whole. I then came back
13 to the unit again. Whilst in Oakington, where I was
14 selected within the battalion and the division, which
15 is seven regiments in all, to go and train officers at
16 Sandhurst. I then went on that selection and
17 successfully passed it. I stayed there for a tour of
18 two years training officers for more countries for two
19 years. I finished that in April just gone. I am now
20 back with my unit. We have just moved from Northern
21 Ireland to Chepstow, in South Wales where I have now
22 been promoted again to a colour sergeant.
23 Q. Thank you. We are now going to talk about
24 your tour in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Excuse me. Counsel Radovic?
1 MR. RADOVIC: Something was wrong with the
2 interpretation regarding the military career of our
3 witness. Speaking about his present post, he said he
4 was doing something where there were seven divisions,
5 and it can't be because a division is very large and
6 therefore there can't be seven divisions in a
7 battalion. They said he was with a battalion that had
8 seven divisions and that is impossible so could we have
9 it clarified, please.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Could the witness please
11 clarify this question of divisions?
12 THE WITNESS: Certainly, sir. I'm in a
13 regiment, which is a member of a division which has
14 seven units, which have seven regiments.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: It was a question of
16 translation. Thank you. Mr. Terrier?
17 MR. TERRIER:
18 Q. Let's now focus on your tour in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Could you tell us when you were
20 stationed in the Vitez area?
21 A. I was stationed in the Vitez area from the
22 November of '92 to the May, I think it was, May-April
23 of '93 -- '93 to '94, sorry. And from the Vitez area
24 we worked -- we went directly to Vitez from Germany.
25 We then moved for a short period up to Tuzla, stopping
1 at Kladanj, I think that's how you pronounce it, to
2 setting up a forward operating base in Tuzla, in the
3 airport. We then moved back to Vitez area to finish
4 off the tour there. We did six months the whole tour.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: May I ask you to clarify one
6 point? You said that you were there in Vitez from
7 November '92 to May-April '94?
8 A. No, just a six-month tour. '92, sorry, to
9 '93.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: So May-April '93 then?
11 A. Yes. That's correct, sir.
12 MR. TERRIER:
13 Q. During this time, what were your missions?
14 A. We only had one mission and that was to get
15 food and escort convoys to people who were directed
16 from our Ops room, from our operations room.
17 Q. At the time, who was your command or, rather,
18 what were your responsibilities?
19 A. I was a platoon sergeant in charge of a
20 platoon of 30 or so men which entailed four Warrior
21 armoured fighting vehicles. But towards the end of the
22 tour, I was given a fifth vehicle which was my
23 Battalion 2 IC's vehicle, as he came over and was not
24 Warrior trained. And therefore his vehicle was not
25 being used so he gave it to ourselves to be used and to
1 be looked after, sir.
2 Q. Let's now focus on the day of the 16th of
3 April, 1993. I want to ask you to recall the morning
4 you spent in Vitez, but rather the afternoon of the
5 16th. It seems that during that afternoon, you were
6 called to Ahmici. First of all, I would like you to
7 tell the Judges what were the reasons you were sent to
8 Ahmici this day, the 16th of April, 1993, in the
9 afternoon?
10 A. I was tasked from my Ops room to go to Ahmici
11 to recover or help the aid of recovery of a vehicle
12 from 9th-12th Lancers, a Scimitar, which is a smaller
13 Warrior. They had a radio message to say one of their
14 two vehicles had broken down in the village. I wasn't
15 told it was Ahmici, I was just given a grid reference
16 to go to. My vehicle, which was 22 bravo call sign,
17 along with a REME vehicle which is a recovery vehicle
18 which is also a Warrior but has no weapons on it, we
19 immediately went off to Ahmici to find this vehicle
20 which had been broken down.
21 Q. What time was it?
22 A. It was early afternoon, about 14.00.
23 Q. How many vehicles were you responsible for
24 during this mission?
25 A. On this first visit, just the two vehicles,
1 myself in a Warrior, and the vehicle behind which was
2 the REME vehicle, sir.
3 Q. Could you now tell the Judges what you saw
4 when you got closer to Ahmici, when you went through
5 the village and when you entered the village, in fact?
6 A. Yes. As I -- as we drove down the road
7 towards the grid reference, again it wasn't Ahmici, I
8 didn't know I was going to Ahmici at first, I was
9 driving down the road, and we came to a prominent
10 turn-off which was -- we called it the back road to
11 Zenica, which is a mountain road which turned off to
12 the left. There's always a roadblock there. There
13 wasn't one this day.
14 As we drove past slightly downhill we could
15 see off to the left smoke billowing out beyond the
16 skyline in several trickles of smoke. It wasn't just
17 one complete trickle. We saw this, my driver and
18 myself and the gunner that sits next to me, and at that
19 point then we raced on because this stretch of road,
20 from that Zenica turn-off down to the base of the road,
21 I guess is about -- or was about a kilometre long, and
22 we used to go fast down there just to give the vehicles
23 a good run out, but this was more a case of getting
24 there fast. We weren't used to seeing smoke at this
25 stage in our tour. It wasn't a thing. So we raced
1 down towards this road, slowed down, negotiated the
2 turn which is to the left and to the right, and as we
3 came up the hill mainly to the left we saw lots of
4 houses destroyed, on fire, smoke billowing out, and
5 people to the left of the road, people -- I say
6 children and women, to the left of the road were lying
7 in the open, appeared to me to be dead.
8 We carried on driving down the road very
9 slowly now. At this point I had forgot about my
10 mission, which was to go to this grid to recover this
11 vehicle because, quite obviously, other things had come
12 to my mind. We drove very, very slowly down the road
13 looking both left and right. To the right of the road
14 wasn't much destruction. There's a couple of ruined
15 houses, but nothing compared to as the left-hand side
16 which is amazing, to say the least.
17 We carried on driving down the road, again
18 very slow. As we came to negotiate a left turn just
19 past the cemetery which is on the right-hand side of
20 the road, a woman jumped out from under the undergrowth
21 with her arms -- with her hands clasped in a praying
22 manner, and I couldn't understand what she was saying
23 but her looks and her face was enough to tell me that
24 she was very frightened and it was inevitable anyway
25 that something was wrong. When I looked behind that,
1 there was another three women and it looked to be a
2 child behind her.
3 We were stopped, it was slightly downhill. I
4 told one of the soldiers from the back to go out and to
5 go look at this woman, and I told him or told her
6 through the soldier to wait there and we'll be back in
7 ten minutes. He told her to go back into the
8 undergrowth. She got back in -- it was like a mud
9 bank, a large mud bank. She got back in and he then
10 put some branches around her which were lying in the
11 area and left them there.
12 We then continued down the road. Now we
13 switched back to what we were supposed to be doing,
14 looking for the grid reference, and I drove off, again
15 negotiating the bend very slowly to look to my left, to
16 what we called the Swiss chalet which is a large
17 tent-like building, a large triangular building with a
18 large patio in the front area. Drove past that. Saw
19 lots of people there. Negotiated a turn-around point,
20 again a common point we used to call the turn-around
21 point, it is where the road meets the river on a sharp
22 bend. We turned around. As we turned round, we're now
23 looking at the Swiss chalet to see there lots of
24 soldiers. To date, of that time in Bosnia, that was
25 the most amount of soldiers that I had saw, and I would
1 call it a company group which to English military terms
2 is a hundred or so soldiers.
3 Q. Let me interrupt you for a second. Could you
4 give us some clarifications? You had with you a
5 camera; right?
6 A. Yes, sir. I carried a camera everywhere I
7 went. Correct, sir.
8 Q. And when you drove through Ahmici, you took a
9 number of photographs; right?
10 A. Correct, sir. On both occasions that visit,
11 sir.
12 MR. TERRIER: I would like the usher to show
13 Exhibit number 53 to the witness, please.
14 Q. Could you tell us what this photograph
15 depicts, or do you remember by seeing this photograph?
16 A. The photograph was taken by myself on the
17 first visit, the visit I'm talking about, and this here
18 (indicating) is one of the viewing windows from the
19 turret of the vehicle and it's the left-hand side of
20 the road. We were driving in the direction I'm
21 pointing. And it shows the burnt-out houses, bodies
22 here and here, and houses on fire in the general area,
23 sir.
24 Q. On the aerial photograph which is behind you,
25 could you show us the places where you saw corpses or
1 bodies?
2 A. Sir, the main road we drove down is the road
3 here (indicating) and we saw bodies mainly on the
4 left-hand side of the road, in this area here
5 (indicating) and here, sir (indicating), and also this
6 house here stands out because on the first drive again,
7 as we drove down the area here being where we met the
8 people huddled behind the mud bank, on the doorstep of
9 this house there was what appeared to be a man which we
10 thought was a father and his son lying in a
11 not-so-comfortable way with lots of blood from the
12 father's head, and there was a dog on the scene which
13 was licking the blood off.
14 Q. Was this man alone?
15 A. No, sir. He had a very young child with him,
16 which we presumed was father and son lying down on the
17 front doorstep of the house, sir.
18 MR. TERRIER: Just for reference, the house
19 that has been shown by the witness on the aerial
20 photograph is House number 49. If we refer to the
21 other document, two people were dead in this house but
22 not a father and son, as the witness has just said, it
23 was a man, Mr. Pirjanovic born in 1950 and his wife
24 born in 1958. Which means that today we cannot give
25 any information about the precise identity of the two
1 people saw by the witness in that particular place, and
2 I have to remind you that a very high number of
3 refugees were living in Ahmici at that period of time
4 and that none -- not all of them were identified.
5 Q. Sir, let's go back to the Swiss cottage which
6 you described. You said that there were a very
7 significant number of soldiers in this Swiss cottage or
8 outside. Could you describe the uniforms they were
9 wearing?
10 A. I was very close to them to start off with,
11 sir, about no more than 30 yards at this point when we
12 drove right up to them. The uniforms they were wearing
13 were very dark. We were used -- at this point again to
14 not seeing so many soldiers, as I've previously
15 mentioned, but we weren't used to seeing so many
16 military-styled-clothed people, it was just mixed
17 dress, as we'd call it, which would be either civilian
18 bottoms and a military top or the other way around.
19 But this organised group was all wearing dark
20 uniforms. I won't say it was black, I wouldn't say it
21 was very dark green, it was just very dark uniforms,
22 everyone of them was dressed like it.
23 I also in my head saw -- and I've still got
24 the memory now of a patch on one of the right arms.
25 I've been through many files to try to identify the
1 patch but I can't identify it. It was a shield. It
2 was, as I'm looking at it from left to right, a stripe,
3 a vertical stripe, a red, white, and blue, and there's
4 an arched insignia across the top of it, but what it
5 says, I don't know.
6 Q. Do you remember seeing weapons at that time?
7 A. Yes, sir, lots of weapons. Again, I would
8 say there was enough for easily one per man. This
9 large group of people were drinking beer, cans and
10 bottles. They were very joyful. They were waving the
11 weapons in the air as if to toast, as if to be happy
12 with what was happening at that moment in time.
13 Q. What kind of impression did you have as
14 regards these soldiers?
15 A. Well, I wouldn't call them soldiers, for a
16 start. I'd call them, what I would say was a -- I put
17 one and one together. I just saw the scenes of passing
18 through the village. These people now are less than
19 400, 500 metres, if that, away from what all was
20 happening, so that they couldn't hear what was
21 happening, if they weren't responsible, which I doubt,
22 then I just -- I don't know. I would like to say. At
23 that moment in time, just -- I turned, I traversed the
24 gun of the tank, which is a 30-millimetre gun, towards
25 these people, and -- well -- I just don't know.
1 Q. I will ask the usher to show you Exhibit
2 119. You didn't take this picture yourself, so please
3 just identify the building which is behind the vehicle?
4 A. Yes, sir. This is what we call the Swiss
5 chalet. It's off the bend to the left-hand side of the
6 road with, as we can see, a large forecourt patio area
7 which is where the all these soldiers were stood, about
8 this area with all their weapons, toasting and cheering
9 with the beer, and the turnaround point as we are
10 looking at the picture is off to the right-hand side on
11 the other side of the road.
12 Q. When you saw these people for the first time,
13 these soldiers, you were driving toward Zenica, weren't
14 you? And can you show us on the aerial photograph
15 behind you which route you followed, and where you
16 turned round?
17 A. Yes, sir. I was driving down the main road.
18 This place here, known as the Bungalow on the map is
19 where the Swiss chalet is, and the turn-around point is
20 just off the map to the large -- it used to be a
21 grassed area but it's worn out. We used to use it a
22 lot to turn around when we were on road routes. It was
23 a common turn around point that we used to use. It's
24 dried-up mud, off the main road. As we are looking at
25 this map, to the right-hand side.
1 Q. It's on your way back to Ahmici that you
2 targeted these men with your gun?
3 A. Yes, targeted -- I wouldn't say targeted.
4 Targeted is when you want to shoot. I didn't shoot.
5 Q. Why did you do that? What was the
6 significance of this?
7 A. I aimed my gun at them because of anger,
8 again because like I said, I put what I saw to what I'm
9 looking at at that present point in time, these people,
10 not soldiers, as to what I had saw, and I put one and
11 one together as to what I thought; they had done the
12 scenes that I had just seen. I didn't operate a
13 trigger as such or anything because I believe that --
14 well, discipline, amongst other things, took over, sir.
15 Q. When you were saying they were not soldiers,
16 are you saying that they were not people who had the
17 moral qualities of a soldier?
18 A. In my eyes sir, correct, yes sir.
19 Q. And according to you, they didn't have these
20 qualities because, in your mind, they were associated
21 to the incidents you had witnessed in Ahmici before;
22 right?
23 A. Correct, sir.
24 Q. Could you describe the rest of your travel,
25 of your route?
1 A. Yes, sir. As I said, we've turned around
2 now, we've aimed our gun at these people, we've now
3 forgot that incident as such and we've drove off, back
4 slowly again, up the road negotiated the bend to again
5 where these people were on now the right-hand side of
6 the road because we're driving back towards Vitez, told
7 these people again just to wait. We carried on, looked
8 at the map, and on the vehicles we have, on the
9 Warriors, we have what's called a navigational system
10 which pinpoints exactly where you are with satellites,
11 basically. I looked at this and realised my grid was
12 on to my left-hand side, looked at the map, found the
13 road that I wanted, which is the road here, and we
14 drove up that road in a northerly direction, nice and
15 slow again up the road to notice that on the right
16 again were houses burning and destroyed and on the
17 left-hand side of the road there's now a lot of cattle
18 in the area which was dead. It had been shot.
19 We carried on up the road until we went past
20 the mosque up to this area here. All this area now to
21 me was new. I had never been up this road before on
22 this tour of Bosnia. We looked to the right and we saw
23 the broken-down Scimitar which was there with the other
24 vehicle. We talked to the driver on the radio, talked
25 to him through word of mouth because his radio wasn't
1 working, shouting at him, to find that the vehicle in
2 front had broken down. The other vehicle was just
3 behind. That was okay. So we negotiated and turned
4 around to face back down the track facing towards the
5 cow field, this way here.
6 Once the REME vehicle went in to the Scimitar
7 and carried on fixing it, we could hear, not very
8 loudly because the engine and the noise of the
9 vehicles, but behind us there was gunfire, just a
10 single gun, the same gun. And as we looked through our
11 sights down towards the field which I've pointed out,
12 we could see cattle being shot at, and there was one
13 specific cow which was being shot, kept falling down,
14 getting back up as it was shot at again, and this was
15 repeatedly happening until the cattle stayed down. We
16 thought the gunfire was coming from behind us. With
17 the engine noise, we couldn't exactly make out where it
18 was coming from.
19 As this was going on, the REME had got in
20 touch with me from their vehicle to say that the
21 vehicle was not fixable, so they connected it up to
22 their vehicle and we led our way back then to the
23 garage, back down the way we came, back down the track,
24 turning right at the end, and heading back towards the
25 garage and the order, I led the way, followed by the
1 broken -- followed by the REME vehicle towing the
2 broken-down vehicle and the other Scimitar behind. We
3 got back to the garage. We left all those vehicles
4 there, the three of them, and I then reported back to
5 my Ops room in the school to tell them that -- the job
6 we had just done, sir.
7 Q. Could you talk about your second journey to
8 Ahmici?
9 A. When I got back to the Ops room after this
10 first one, I said to the people in the Ops room what
11 I've just seen down in the village, and I told them
12 that I had given some instructions out to these four
13 women and child to stay there for ten minutes 'cause
14 I'll be back.
15 I got told at that point that I couldn't go
16 back, but I informed the person I was speaking to that
17 I had to go back because I've given my word, so I went
18 back to the park, got in my vehicle, and got one of my
19 other vehicles with me, which is call sign 3-2. We
20 then drove back at great speed to Ahmici, to the exact
21 point where these people were inside or behind this mud
22 bank covered with leaves. We stopped, he stayed a
23 distance behind, and we opened the back doors and we
24 started loading these people on. The vehicle I had,
25 which is a -- it's a command variant which means it's
1 got two back doors and there's space inside -- it's
2 only got four chairs. You could get, I suppose, two
3 people up on one of these chairs and two tables and
4 they collapse down.
5 At this point, though, lots of women came
6 running from this mud bank and got into the back of the
7 vehicle. When they all got into the back of the
8 vehicle, we closed the door, had a quick count to find
9 out there was 13 women, two children. We gave them
10 some hot drink and some biscuits which we always carry
11 on board, in a kettle, I suppose you could call it. As
12 this was happening, I then looked behind me and saw the
13 other vehicle, 3-2, reversed round to face back up
14 towards the north, this way, and what he was doing was
15 the same. People were coming from one of the houses
16 and they were then getting on board his vehicle with
17 lots of belongings.
18 As this was happening, off to the right-hand
19 side there's like a fenced-off area, which is like a
20 builder's merchant's yard, as such. A man was on the
21 inside and he was pulling at the gate to try to get out
22 but the gate had a chain and padlock on it, so the gate
23 was only open a small amount of the way. He couldn't
24 get out so he dropped to the ground quickly, shuffled
25 underneath, and ran towards the vehicle. I didn't open
1 the doors at this point because I didn't know who he
2 was. As he got towards the back door, we could see he
3 had no weapons on him and he was in complete civilian
4 clothes and he was very frightened. We opened the
5 doors and he got into the back of our vehicle. At this
6 point I then took another photograph looking out of the
7 back of the vehicle, sir.
8 Q. I would like the usher to show you Exhibit
9 number 245.
10 Did you take this picture?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Was this photograph taken when the incidents
13 you've just mentioned took place, when the civilians
14 embarked into your vehicles?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Can you describe the vehicle in the middle of
17 the photograph? What is it doing now?
18 A. The vehicle here, is what's known as
19 traversing, in other words, it doesn't move as such,
20 the wheels don't go round. All it does is spin on its
21 axis and it's spinning to the left to move forward and
22 reverse up to allow these people here to get into the
23 back of the vehicle, and as you can see it's taken from
24 a vehicle, this is an antenna and these here are the
25 back bins, as we call them, on a vehicle, sir.
1 Q. At that moment there are two vehicles on the
2 road, the one we can see and yours, where the picture
3 is taken from.
4 A. This picture is taken from the back of my
5 vehicle as I'm looking backwards.
6 Q. Could you tell us where this young man was
7 coming from, who arrived at the last minute?
8 A. Here, sir, from this area, from this
9 fenced-off area here, which was like -- it was like a
10 builder's merchant's -- bits of wood, planks of wood.
11 Just back from it, you can't see it, in this direction,
12 along here, further back, there's like a shed which had
13 no frontage to it and all the wood, bricks, and sand
14 and whatever, bits and bobs, they were all in that area
15 there, so we called it a builder's -- a merchant yard.
16 Q. How did he manage to jump the fence that we
17 can see in the photograph?
18 A. Can you repeat that, sir?
19 Q. How this young man managed to jump the fence
20 that we can see on the right-hand side of the
21 photograph, to go over it?
22 A. He didn't jump the fence. He tried to open
23 the fence but it wouldn't open because there's a chain
24 and a padlock on it. What he done was dropped on his
25 belly, crawled underneath the gate, and got up and ran
1 towards the vehicle this way here (indicating), sir.
2 Q. In which vehicle did he embark? On the one
3 we see on your photograph or in your vehicle?
4 A. In my vehicle, sir.
5 Q. What did you do afterwards?
6 A. Once this was finished, then the other
7 vehicle now was facing back up the road towards Vitez.
8 We then neutral turned our vehicle to face the same
9 way, and I talked on the radio to the vehicle behind,
10 and we made our way at best speed up to Travnik
11 hospital. We drove all the way to Travnik hospital,
12 which was on the right-hand side of the road, went
13 under like a large verandah, entranceway, got into the
14 hospital forecourt, car park area where a lot of nurses
15 came rushing out with trolleys, like stretchers on
16 them. We then disembarked the people from the
17 vehicle. There was a very, very old woman, I mean
18 grandmother age, so to speak. We then got out of the
19 vehicle, we all got out of the vehicle, and she then
20 embraced me, gave me a hug, and she was talking to the
21 nurses, and she wouldn't let me go. She was trembling,
22 as was the same with the rest of them. She then was
23 taken away by the doctors, and they all went into the
24 hospital, and that's the last we heard of them, sir.
25 Q. During the journey in Ahmici in April 1993,
1 did you have the feeling that there was a battle going
2 on between various armed groups?
3 A. No, sir. There was no -- there was no two
4 sides there, there was only this one amount of people
5 and they were at the Swiss chalet. There was no sort
6 of anything around the area to say that there was a
7 battle in that area. No, I suppose you'd call it,
8 defences. There was nothing like that in the area,
9 sir.
10 Q. If we exclude these people you saw at the
11 Swiss cottage. Did you see in Ahmici men wearing
12 uniforms and weapons?
13 A. No, sir, none.
14 Q. In the days following, or in the weeks
15 following, the day of the 16th of April, 1993, did you
16 go back to Ahmici?
17 A. Yes, sir. When Ahmici then became public, I
18 suppose, lots of visits were made back there with lots
19 of press, et cetera, and I did go back only the one
20 time, which was well after some bodies had been found
21 in a burnt-out cellar which was the only time -- but
22 that was weeks later, sir.
23 Q. Could you please indicate on this photograph,
24 using one of the pens you have just in front of you,
25 the place where this young man managed to embark in
1 your vehicle? Where he managed to crawl under the
2 fence, to be more precise. Put an X, for instance.
3 You've got some pens on your desk.
4 A. There, sir. (Marks)
5 Q. Thank you. One last question. On the aerial
6 photograph which is just behind you, can you tell us
7 where you took this photograph?
8 A. Yes, sir. I believed up until I've been here
9 for the last two days, sir, that I took this photograph
10 here, but I've now been informed that it was here, sir
11 (indicating).
12 MR. TERRIER: To explain this last evidence
13 from the witness, I would like to say that this witness
14 has already testified in the Blaskic case, and in the
15 Blaskic case, the witness described the same scene
16 which we can see on the photograph.
17 However, he told the Court that this picture
18 had been taken further away down the road in another
19 bend. We talked about it when we met, and since there
20 is no doubt about the place where the picture was taken
21 because you can realise this when you see the picture.
22 I noticed that maybe in the Blaskic case and during his
23 testimony there was a little bit of confusion since
24 these events took place a long time ago, but just to
25 make things clear, there can be no doubt as far as the
1 place where the picture was taken is concerned and as
2 far as the place where this incident took place is
3 concerned. I have no further questions,
4 Mr. President. Thank you.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel
6 Pavkovic?
7 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, the witness will
8 be cross-examined by Defence counsel Susak and then
9 Counsel Jadranka Slokovic-Glumac.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?
11 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Susak:
13 Q. We are going to speak now about the
14 photograph 245. Could you tell us, where were you
15 standing when you saw this person which, as you said,
16 crawled from beneath the fence?
17 A. As I mentioned, sir, in my vehicle, it is --
18 I'm in the turret of the vehicle here -- sorry, here.
19 Basically I'm on the left-hand side and I'm turned
20 around so I'm facing back towards Vitez way. I'm on
21 the left-hand side and the gunner is on the right-hand
22 side and I'm looking through the back centre of the
23 vehicle up here at the top. We can just see where the
24 hatch has sprung open and it stays in that position,
25 sir.
1 Q. Can you indicate with a cross the place
2 where -- this place, where you were or where your
3 vehicle was?
4 A. Indicate where -- sorry?
5 Q. You said that you were in the turret. That's
6 what you said.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did I understand you correctly? Could you
9 tell us where exactly you were at that moment with the
10 pointer? I'm referring to the vehicle. You were on
11 the left side in the vehicle, you said.
12 A. Okay sir. Sorry. If we look at the vehicle
13 behind, we see the main hull, which is the bottom part
14 of the vehicle, and we can see the top part, which is
15 the turret. Here now where I'm pointing is a
16 silhouette of a person. That there is the commander.
17 He is on the right-hand side as the vehicle faces
18 forward. I am in that position but on this front
19 vehicle, sir.
20 Q. Can you indicate where this front vehicle is?
21 A. Here, sir.
22 Q. Could you indicate with a cross the part of
23 the vehicle where you were sitting or standing at that
24 moment?
25 A. Indicate on the rear vehicle?
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I imagine so, yes.
2 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I didn't quite
3 understand the question, but if the witness understood
4 the question, fine.
5 MR. SUSAK: Could he put a circle around the
6 place where he was sitting, not a cross, so there is no
7 confusion.
8 A. I'm on the front vehicle, sir.
9 MR. SUSAK:
10 Q. Would you indicate where the front vehicle
11 was at that moment?
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Where should he indicate
13 this?
14 MR. SUSAK: Your Honour, I am interested in
15 the angle of the vehicle, whether the witness could see
16 this scene from that angle, because if he was in the
17 turret, I believe that under a certain angle, he
18 couldn't see the lower part of the fence.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: He took this photograph --
20 A. I took this photograph --
21 JUDGE CASSESE: This was taken by the
22 witness. So if he was able to take this photograph
23 covering also the fence, that means that he was able to
24 see the fence.
25 MR. SUSAK: Your Honour, I asked him where he
1 was at the point --
2 JUDGE MAY: You did not ask him where he
3 was. It was made quite plain that he is the
4 photographer. You then asked him to fill in on that
5 photograph, which shows the other tank, where it was
6 that he was sitting. So what he filled in was the
7 equivalent position. You've caused total confusion.
8 He was the photographer. This is what he saw.
9 MR. SUSAK: Yes. Your Honour, Judge May,
10 where was he when he saw the man coming out of the
11 courtyard from under the fence? To tell me where he
12 was, what his position was at that time, moment.
13 A. Certainly, sir. I am the camera. That is my
14 view of what I can see obviously with a wider scope.
15 That is the lens. I can see that plus more of what you
16 can see now with the photograph, sir.
17 Q. Can you indicate approximately the place, the
18 location where you were, or the direction?
19 A. Yes, okay. This here -- this here, this
20 thing sticking up, is the rear of my vehicle and it's
21 an antenna which goes up when we're stationary. This
22 line and this one here, a shadow, are rear bins of the
23 vehicle, and in between that, what you can't see here,
24 are these two opening back doors. That is the rear of
25 my vehicle. That there is my hat -- sorry, the
1 gunner's hatch, I'm on the left-hand side, the whole
2 vehicle is facing forward but I, as you can see, I've
3 taken the photograph, facing the rear -- the turret is
4 still facing forward, sir.
5 Q. Were you in the vehicle or were you on the
6 road, on the asphalt?
7 A. In the vehicle, sir.
8 Q. That's what I was asking you. Were you in
9 the turret of the vehicle? Were you in the turret of
10 that vehicle? Could you describe the place where you
11 were situated in the vehicle, your place in the
12 vehicle?
13 A. Certainly, sir. As the vehicle is facing
14 forward, as this vehicle here that I'm pointing out is,
15 I am on the front right of that vehicle as the
16 commander. The gunner is the front left person.
17 Q. Could you draw an arrow showing what is rear
18 and what is front for you. What, according to you, is
19 rear and what is front?
20 A. (Marks). A is rear and B is front, sir.
21 Q. So you are looking towards the width of the
22 road. Could you put the longitudinal in the
23 longitudinal, what is front and what is rear, with an
24 arrow?
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you explain what you
1 mean?
2 MR. SUSAK: The direction of the road. Your
3 Honour, the witness is saying that he is looking at the
4 front, the longitudinal axis with an arrow, as regards
5 the longitudinal axis of the road.
6 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I don't really
7 understand.
8 A. This is towards Vitez, that way, and the
9 other area towards Zenica.
10 MR. SUSAK:
11 Q. This is not clear again. I asked you to draw
12 only one arrow which will indicate the direction, what
13 is front, and you put two arrows. Now I don't know
14 what is rear, what is front?
15 JUDGE CASSESE: You put one arrow and a "V,"
16 namely Vitez. This is what you did.
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: There is one arrow pointing
19 toward the other tank and a "V" meaning Vitez.
20 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Your Honour. I have
21 understood now. I thought the "V" was an arrow.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: No. All right?
23 MR. TERRIER: Please, could we avoid putting
24 more marks on this photograph because otherwise you
25 won't understand a thing using this photograph?
1 MR. SUSAK:
2 Q. At what moment did you see that person in the
3 fence or within the fence, within the area of the
4 fence? At what point did you see him or where was the
5 person when you saw him for the first time?
6 A. My vehicle -- on this photograph now, my
7 vehicle is loaded up with the 13 women and two
8 children. The man is also on the vehicle as the
9 photograph was taken. The man came from behind this
10 gate here, underneath it, and around this way.
11 Afterwards, which is when this photograph was taken,
12 this vehicle is manoeuvring to load these people up
13 here, sir.
14 Q. You hadn't answered my question. I said,
15 when did you first see that person? I'm not talking
16 about the movement, I am asking you when did you first
17 see him, at what place -- in what place? What was the
18 position?
19 A. I first saw the person --
20 Q. Did you see him coming out of the fence or
21 crawling under the fence or crossing -- jumping over
22 the fence?
23 A. I think I've already said that he was on the
24 other side of the fence, he attempted to open the gate,
25 he couldn't, because it was chained, so he dropped to
1 the ground, crawled under, and then ran to the vehicle,
2 sir.
3 Q. ... saw him the first time under the fence?
4 Within the fence?
5 A. The first time I saw him was on the inside of
6 the compound, sir.
7 Q. How -- what was the distance between the
8 person and the fence?
9 A. Inches, sir.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Metres, inches?
11 A. Inches. He was trying to get out. He was
12 pulling the gate to get out but couldn't get out so he
13 then dropped to the ground and went underneath, sir.
14 MR. SUSAK:
15 Q. I'm concluding that you saw him at the gate.
16 I asked you how -- what was the distance between him
17 and the gate when you first saw him? Can you say
18 that?
19 Your Honour, you will probably understand
20 better if we say -- if we show the witness the aerial
21 photograph 247 where the courtyard and the building and
22 the fence are seen. You will then understand my
23 question.
24 Could you please say in this photograph, when
25 did you first see this person? What was the exact
1 point? Could you put a cross there? You see the fence
2 now. You can see the fence now.
3 A. Yeah, I can see the fence, but it doesn't --
4 this gate is on the roadside. That gate there is on
5 another side. It's a different photograph.
6 Q. I want this photograph to be left there.
7 Could you indicate with an arrow the open gate or with
8 a circle?
9 A. The gate's not there.
10 MR. TERRIER: There is no gate,
11 Mr. President, on this photograph. This is not the
12 same view.
13 MR. SUSAK: This is the same view. This is
14 the same photograph. It is an exhibit. And it shows
15 that the gate is open. I want the witness to encircle
16 the door.
17 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, this
18 photograph -- it goes back to March 1998, this
19 photograph. It was not taken by the witness and we can
20 see that on the road there is no gate, and that the
21 gate which is shown on picture 245 is not visible on
22 this particular picture. It's probably not the same
23 portion of road on Exhibit 245 and on this photograph.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Counsel Susak, can you
25 see?
1 MR. SUSAK: ... want the witness to encircle
2 the place where the person was when he first saw him
3 because the witness said that a person crawled from
4 beneath the fence onto the road. I would like him --
5 the witness to encircle the place where this person was
6 when he saw him.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. The witness --
8 THE WITNESS: The photograph that is visible
9 now is completely different. First of all, the
10 buildings weren't there. They look like concrete. It
11 was a wooden building with an open front. The gates,
12 as we can see, are there. They weren't. I'd guess
13 that they were on this side here -- not a guess. They
14 were on this side here. So it's completely different.
15 I can't mark where he was, sir.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right.
17 MR. SUSAK:
18 Q. But in this direction you can see the
19 building. Keep to the direction of the building. Or
20 if you can't mark it, could you tell us how far the
21 person was from the wire fence when you first saw him?
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, you are asking
23 again and again the same question. I wonder whether
24 you could move on to your next question because you
25 asked this question many times and now the witness
1 can't identify on this picture the gate, so let us move
2 on.
3 MR. SUSAK:
4 Q. Will you. Will you then tell us how that
5 individual was dressed, the one that ran to your
6 vehicle?
7 A. Yes, he was dressed in civilian clothes.
8 There was no military clothing about him whatsoever,
9 sir.
10 Q. While he was within the fence, did he shout
11 to you, did he communicate with you verbally?
12 A. No, sir. As again I've said, all we done was
13 seen him trying to get under the fence. He didn't
14 communicate in any way. He didn't have to. The look
15 on his face when he got close to us was enough. We
16 could see that he was trying to get out of that
17 building in somewhat of a scared manner. He was trying
18 to get out. He attempted the gates, couldn't get out,
19 so he quickly dropped to the ground, belly-crawled
20 underneath the gates, and then ran to the vehicle where
21 again, as we've said, we looked at him, identified that
22 he had no weapons about him, he had no military
23 clothing whatsoever, so we opened the back doors and
24 inside, and in our vehicle he got, sir.
25 Q. Since he crawled under the fence, did you
1 then measure the distance between -- the gap between
2 the ground and the fence? Did you happen to notice
3 that?
4 A. No, sir, but it was big enough for him to get
5 under and crawl.
6 Q. Thank you. Right. From the distance, how
7 could you see that the gate was padlocked?
8 A. Because he attempted to pull it. He
9 attempted to pull the gate, it wouldn't open -- well,
10 it opened a couple of millimetres, inches, centimetres,
11 whatever you want to call it, it opened a little bit,
12 but he couldn't get out, so he dropped to the ground
13 and went underneath it, sir.
14 Q. Did he get through immediately or did he wait
15 for a while?
16 A. No, sir, straightaway he dropped to the
17 ground and straight underneath. Straightaway.
18 Q. So without any obstacle. All right. You say
19 that -- you cannot indicate the place you say you saw
20 him first. But do you know -- do you know what his
21 function at that facility was?
22 A. Do you mean what his job was?
23 Q. Yes, yes. What was his job there?
24 A. I don't know, sir. Don't know.
25 Q. Could you describe that person, what he looks
1 like, how tall he is, whether he was wearing a cap?
2 A. No, couldn't describe anything. It's five
3 years ago. Sorry.
4 Q. But you remember what was happening in the
5 Bungalow five years ago.
6 A. In the Bungalow with all the men? In the
7 chalet?
8 Q. Yes. You remember what was there, and here
9 you can't remember.
10 A. Well, because that was the largest mass of
11 men I had seen to that date. I had never seen a
12 hundred men in Bosnia in military clothes with lots of
13 weapons, never, until that day. That's why that sticks
14 in my head. But I saw lots of people on the road and I
15 can't remember this one.
16 Q. Do you know how this man happened to be
17 inside the fence and where he was before that?
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. All right. Did you see this man standing in
20 front of the fence, or was he moving?
21 A. He was on the inside of the compound.
22 Q. I'll ask you, was he standing or was he
23 moving when you saw him?
24 A. He was trying to open the gate. He was
25 moving.
1 MR. SUSAK: Thank you. I have no further
2 questions, Your Lordship. Thank you.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?
4 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kujawinski. I will ask
6 you some questions related to your first tour of
7 Ahmici. Could you tell us what time it was? At about
8 what time did you set out? You said after 2.00, but
9 could you be more precise?
10 A. Certainly. According to the notes I have or
11 had, it was about 14.40 hours, ma'am.
12 Q. And some place in Ahmici or, rather, you
13 reached a bungalow. How long did it take you to get to
14 the Bungalow, roughly? Half an hour? An hour?
15 A. I suppose between 15 minutes and half an
16 hour, I suppose.
17 Q. Could you tell us, those bodies you saw on
18 the left-hand side of the road when you showed it you
19 said that -- you showed us on the map and said they
20 were mostly on the left side of the road. How many
21 bodies were there again, roughly, if you could tell us?
22 A. I've said in the formal statement when I was
23 on the -- in the box last time that I saw approximately
24 13 up that road, i.e. here (indicating).
25 Q. You counted them? You counted those bodies?
1 A. No, no, I didn't count them individually, no,
2 but I'm guessing there was about 13.
3 Q. So this one vehicle had broken down in
4 Ahmici, the one that they had reported and asked you to
5 drag it away. But were the bodies collected in Ahmici
6 before you turned up there? Did UNPROFOR members
7 collect those bodies; would you know that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You don't know?
10 A. Not myself.
11 Q. And those soldiers you saw in front of the
12 Bungalow, you said they were wearing dark uniforms; is
13 that so? Were they black uniforms or what? What does
14 "dark" mean?
15 A. As I said before, they weren't black and they
16 weren't -- they were like a dark, very, very dark in
17 colour. Again, to that date we had seen very, very
18 dark camouflage green and we had also seen completely
19 black uniforms. It was just like a whole array or
20 mixture of very dark uniforms, ma'am.
21 Q. So they were of both kinds, they were dark
22 green, dark camouflage, dark ...
23 A. Just very dark, yes, ma'am.
24 Q. You are familiar with the HVO patch, aren't
25 you, with HVO insignia? You used to see it. You
1 know. You know what the HVO insignia looks like, the
2 ones that the ordinary soldiers, that the privates wore
3 on their sleeves. Are you familiar with it?
4 A. I know the Croat symbol and the Muslim
5 symbol, I know both symbols. Again, we were shown
6 many, many books -- distinct ones, ma'am.
7 Q. And such a symbol, and this symbol you did
8 not see on the sleeve of soldiers who were at this
9 Swiss chalet because you are familiar with that
10 particular symbol?
11 A. I only saw -- I only recall seeing this one
12 specific patch that day or that time, should I say,
13 ma'am.
14 Q. And it was not the usual HVO symbol, was it?
15 That insignia that you saw on that occasion, you don't
16 remember ever seeing it again?
17 A. No. The only symbol I saw that day was, as I
18 said, was a shield, red, white, blue from left to right
19 going vertical with an arch across the top of it, but I
20 don't know what it was. Don't know, ma'am.
21 Q. Did you see some lettering on that patch, on
22 that insignia? Were there any letters? Did you see
23 them?
24 A. No. Last time I came, I was shown an A4 file
25 with many, many, many pages of different patches to try
1 and get my head going but, no, it didn't work. There
2 was no writing on it. There was nothing. I couldn't
3 see any.
4 Q. You're referring to General Blaskic's trial,
5 is it, the last time?
6 A. That's correct, ma'am.
7 Q. Right. You also testified that you did not
8 see soldiers with rifles in the village, so you did not
9 see any soldiers with rifles in the village, either
10 those belonging to the army of B and H or the HVO, in
11 Ahmici itself you did not see soldiers with rifles?
12 A. No, I saw nobody in the village whatsoever,
13 only on that drive past when there was people dead on
14 the side and we picked those people up and the only two
15 male people I seen was the one we picked up and the one
16 in the house and obviously all of the soldiers down at
17 the Swiss chalet. Otherwise, no soldiers whatsoever in
18 the village, ma'am.
19 Q. The second time you came to Ahmici, when was
20 that, approximately? When you returned; do you
21 remember?
22 A. The second time that day?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. That specific day? Well, I had to go to the
25 garage to drop off the broken-down vehicle, to go back
1 to the school, have a discussion, brief up people, and
2 then go back up. I guess now about maybe just short of
3 an hour or just over an hour, somewhere around there,
4 ma'am? A guess.
5 Q. So around 5.00? Around 5.00 in the
6 afternoon?
7 A. I wouldn't put a time on it.
8 Q. Was it getting dark?
9 A. No, it wasn't getting dark.
10 Q. Could you still hear shots in the village?
11 A. No, not when we went back. No, there was
12 nothing. The only shots in the village were that one
13 time and that was way off to the left and that was just
14 an individual, that was. It wasn't a battle or
15 anything as such. It was just a -- one man far away
16 shooting at this cattle.
17 Q. But when you arrived the first time, you
18 could hear fire?
19 A. Yeah, when we got to the broken-down
20 vehicle. We couldn't hear it from the roadside. But
21 when we got to the broken-down vehicle and turned
22 around, that's when we could hear it. It's hard to
23 hear with the engine on, but you could hear a very
24 distinct crack of a rifle, yes, ma'am.
25 Q. Right. Let me just go back. You kept
1 telling us about those bodies on the left side of the
2 road and that house by the cemetery where you say you
3 saw two bodies. Were there any other bodies near the
4 Catholic cemetery that you might remember? It is on
5 the right-hand side of the road.
6 A. No. Again, from memory, not that I remember,
7 but if I remember right, the Catholic cemetery -- well,
8 as we can see, is on the bend, but the Catholic
9 cemetery is high. It's on like a hill, a small hill
10 or, shall we say, the ground on the right is high and
11 this drops away so you can't exactly see into the
12 cemetery clearly 'cause it's very high, the cemetery, I
13 think.
14 Q. I mean within the boundaries of the cemetery,
15 I mean to the side of the cemetery or near the
16 cemetery, on the other side; you don't remember?
17 A. On the right-hand side of the road, all I
18 remember is there wasn't much destruction or much --
19 many bodies there, ma'am.
20 Q. You spoke about yet another event which you
21 witnessed in April 1993. You said you were at a
22 locality called Miletici on the 20th of April, 1993.
23 Do you remember that?
24 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I object to this
25 question. I didn't mention, during my questioning, the
1 events at Miletici. I don't think the questions are
2 justified just to check the credibility of the
3 witness. Of course, I know that this Tribunal can
4 allow this; however, there is no direct relationship
5 between the indictment and Miletici but, of course,
6 it's up to you to decide on this subject.
7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Your Lordship, may I
8 say something, respond to this objection? The question
9 of Miletici was already raised before when some other
10 witnesses appeared and certain things -- I don't know.
11 Sometimes the Prosecution goes beyond the boundaries of
12 the indictment and I do not see why can't we do it if
13 we have a truthful witness because otherwise we shall
14 have to ask for this witness to come and testify again
15 and we do not think it would really be necessary.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: We have Rule 90(H), whereby
17 cross-examination shall be limited to the subject
18 matter of the direct examination matters affecting the
19 credibility of the witness. The Trial Chamber may, in
20 the exercise of its discretion, permit inquiry into
21 additional matters as if on direct examination.
22 We have decided you may go on and ask
23 questions about Miletici.
24 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
25 Q. Could you tell us, you were in Miletici on
1 two occasions. Could you tell us where that village is
2 and who you went with there? I am referring to the
3 27th of April, 1994 -- '93?
4 A. We got again tasked by the Ops room to go to
5 Miletici to -- we were informed that there was a
6 disturbance in that area. We weren't told what the
7 disturbance was. So I was dispatched with two
8 vehicles, two Warriors, and a UNHCR Land Rover and
9 occupants to find out if food was getting through, I
10 think -- I think. We navigated our way there. It's
11 very north from Vitez. It's down towards the
12 Travnik -- it's on the Travnik road from Vitez but then
13 it's off to the right, up through the mountains and the
14 mountain pass, so to speak. It's right in the hills
15 off to the right-hand side as you're driving north.
16 It's a tiny little village, was -- it was very
17 peaceful, so I could imagine it was.
18 As we got to the base of the hill, the track
19 was very, very thin, and there was no way -- we thought
20 there was no way we were going to get a Warrior vehicle
21 up the track, so we got some of the way by taking out
22 the side of a hedge, and then I told one of the
23 vehicles, one of the Warriors to stay there. I then
24 debussed, that is got out of the vehicle, and walked
25 the vehicle, that is commanded it from the ground up
1 the hill to make sure it wasn't going to go over. We
2 went up this hill followed by the Land Rover and the
3 other Warrior stayed some way down the bottom.
4 We got to the actual village where it was,
5 and it was a very, very small village of which I do
6 have photographs again -- I don't know if there is any
7 exhibits here, whatever. It's a very small forecourt
8 in the centre of the village and to the right-hand side
9 there was a distinctive, what looked like pink house
10 and houses around to the right. Straight on, it was
11 like the front end of a house looking at us, the door
12 end, and off to the left there was an old ruin just
13 down off the side of a drop, which is all knocked down,
14 very old building.
15 When we got up there, through the interpreter
16 with the UNHCR lady, she started asking the people if
17 everything was okay and what was going on in the area,
18 to find out that everything wasn't okay, but they
19 wouldn't let us go near this pink house, as such.
20 Soldiers being soldiers what we are, we got out and had
21 a look around the area while the interpreter carried on
22 talking to her. As we walked around the building we
23 could see there was old blood, dried blood on the floor
24 by the entrance to the house. We asked in the village
25 what had gone on, through the interpreter again, and
1 they were saying, "Nothing, nothing." So in the end,
2 one of them told the interpreter that some soldiers --
3 she didn't name the soldiers to begin with -- had come
4 to the village and had rounded up everybody who was in
5 the village, took them into this old ruin which didn't
6 have a roof or anything, and these soldiers then had
7 segregated the people from fighting people into
8 non-fighting people. With that, they were left with
9 several young men who could have been soldiers
10 according to their knowledge, I suppose.
11 What happened then was they let them go but
12 they took these people who they thought could have been
13 soldiers into this pink house, and in this house again
14 she told us that they had done things to them, and that
15 was as far as it went.
16 The night was closing in now and we talked to
17 this woman repeatedly trying to get into the house and
18 it had come round again through the interpreter that we
19 had found out now that these men had been killed in
20 this house. Not how and where they were now, she
21 wouldn't tell us none of that, but -- what we then said
22 to her, we will get these people buried. We will bury
23 your people now --
24 Q. How many people were involved?
25 A. In the killings?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Five.
3 Q. Did they say what people they were? Did they
4 mention anyone? Did they just say who those people
5 might be because Mujahedeen were mentioned in the --
6 during the investigation. But was there any mention of
7 who those people might be?
8 A. There was, but not at this point -- I mean,
9 we didn't even know at this point how many people there
10 was. She wouldn't tell us anything. But again through
11 this interpreter we found out --
12 Q. You didn't really understand my meaning. I'm
13 asking about the perpetrators, I mean, about those
14 responsible for it. What did the villagers tell you
15 who had done that?
16 A. At this point now as where I am in my story,
17 I suppose, they hadn't told us how many people had been
18 killed or who had killed them. They just said soldiers
19 had been there. They didn't tell us anything.
20 Eventually we got into this house, this pink house, and
21 there was blood, really dark red blood scattered
22 amongst the walls. There was pillows which had been
23 used to muffle shots, we think. Feathers everywhere.
24 There was a settee covered in flood, and on the floor
25 and walls there was like clots of hair and bone just
1 strewn on the walls and it looked like someone had
2 marked down with a hand. At this point now she now
3 told us that there was five of them, all in all, who
4 had been, she said, tortured in this house, and the
5 evidence before us looked like that as well.
6 We said to her, you know, that if you tell us
7 where they are, et cetera, then we could bury them for
8 you, and we never did that day. It was getting dark
9 now, and a villager, one man, came to us and said that
10 loads of soldiers were on the way, and at this time we
11 said, "Well, what do you mean? How many soldiers?" He
12 said lots of soldiers now travelling from the south to
13 the north, the route that we just took, and they were
14 coming up this way, so to speak. We immediately said
15 to her, we'll be back tomorrow. We'll go in. And with
16 that we left rather rapid.
17 We got down to the very bottom of the road
18 after passing our other vehicle to find out we had
19 actually bumped into these soldiers and these were all
20 Muslim soldiers in lots of transport and this now goes
21 on from what I said that this now is the largest number
22 of soldiers I've seen. There was --
23 Q. The second largest group of soldiers that you
24 saw?
25 A. Yes, according to Ahmici, and there was, I
1 guess, 200 plus in different types of vehicles, old
2 dump trucks, buses, vans, all sorts.
3 Q. Armed?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Uniforms?
6 A. All mixed. All mixed up. All in different
7 types of uniforms, civilians, et cetera. Very
8 cheerful, very jolly, didn't -- you know, just talked
9 to us normal. Didn't do anything. And they were
10 making their way north. Now, at that point the border
11 between the Serbs and the Croats was very close and the
12 Bosnians were very close, it was literally two k's up
13 that road, and that was where they were going. We said
14 hello, they said hello. A quick chat and then we shot
15 off back to our Ops. It was very dark now, very dark.
16 We got to our Ops room, told them exactly what we had
17 seen, soldiers going up, the village, et cetera.
18 The next day we returned very early to that
19 village with exactly the same people plus a lorry known
20 as a Bedford, we call it, which is a troop transporter,
21 and in that troop transport we carried coffins. We got
22 the coffins from Vitez, from a timber -- a big massive
23 timber yard just further down from the school, and we
24 put the coffins on board. We also put crosses on
25 board. And we then drove off to Miletici again, same
1 route, exactly the same thing, got up to the top, met
2 these people again, started talking. Again, they
3 weren't going to hand over the bodies. We had a guy
4 called ... Steve Arthur, Company Sergeant Major Arthur,
5 he had a separate interpreter on his own, he
6 negotiated, and eventually they told us these bodies
7 were in the house opposite, with the front door shown
8 to us. This again took a while that day and the bodies
9 were then placed into coffins. I took the names on a
10 notebook. The names are inscribed on these crosses.
11 And we then took the coffins to -- I think it's Gora
12 Guce, I think it's called.
13 Q. Guca Gora?
14 A. To Guca Gora, we took the bodies there. When
15 we got there, a very nice old church. We met a monk.
16 We handed over the bodies. The graves were already
17 dug. How he knew -- just anticipating. We handed over
18 the bodies. I do remember at that point that there was
19 lots of Croat flags in the area all hanging from lamp
20 posts and everything in that village. We then handed
21 over the bodies, turned around, and went back. I don't
22 know what time that was, though, at that point, ma'am.
23 Q. Tell us, in what state were the bodies?
24 Could you see that these people had been tortured?
25 What did they look like?
1 A. It was obvious that the bodies had been in
2 this room for several days 'cause when we opened the
3 door, the door closed itself behind us. It was
4 disgusting. The bodies, as they were laid out, one was
5 very, very bloated, you know, not naturally fat, just
6 built up with gases. Another guy, his neck was just
7 barely hanging on. It had been cut all the way around
8 with what can only be described as a blunt instrument.
9 It was just cut all the way around. Another body, his
10 fingers were bent backwards all the way backwards from
11 the direction that they're supposed to bend.
12 Q. And the bodies were dead, had been dead for
13 some time, according to -- in your judgement?
14 A. Yes, ma'am. In my judgement, yes.
15 Q. What information did you get? Who did it?
16 What did the people in the village tell you?
17 A. I think it was on that second day now, early
18 when we got there, we carried on the negotiations.
19 They saw that we brought the coffins and we were
20 willing to help. They told us that Mujahedin had
21 actually been to that area and had done that. They
22 said it was people they had not seen before, never saw
23 them before, and they actually said the words it was
24 Mujahedin had been in that area, ma'am.
25 Q. Tell us, did they tell you that part of the
1 people were driven out of the village? Did you see men
2 in the village?
3 A. We did see men in the village but again, as I
4 said at the beginning, they were very, very old men not
5 fighting age men. The only fighting men were those
6 dead five people. Everyone else was gone from the
7 village that could fight.
8 Q. Did you hear about these people being
9 expelled from the village, driven out of the village?
10 A. Not that I can recall, ma'am, no.
11 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you very much.
12 That's all.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Terrier?
14 MR. TERRIER: I'll have some very short
15 questions.
16 Re-examined by Mr. Terrier:
17 Q. Sir, you talked about these 200 Muslim
18 soldiers that you saw when you left Miletici to go back
19 to Vitez. Can you tell us on what day this happened?
20 A. Late April. I think -- I think -- I think of
21 it was the 24th of April. I'm not sure. I'm not sure
22 now, sir. I'm not sure.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: I think Mrs. Glumac said 27th
24 of April. The first day was the 27th of April, is what
25 you said.
1 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: The 26th, the first
2 day, the 27th the second day. These are the
3 gentleman's notes.
4 MR. TERRIER: And I agree with Mrs. Glumac's
5 notes.
6 Q. Where were these soldiers going to? In which
7 direction?
8 A. They were travelling north up the valley
9 towards the border, the then border.
10 Q. At that time you were talking about a
11 frontline with the Serbs; right?
12 A. Correct, sir.
13 Q. At that time where was this frontline?
14 A. From the point where we were, where we turned
15 off to go up to Miletici, which was on a very sharp
16 S-bend, first bend into the right, it was approximately
17 2 kilometres north.
18 Q. As far as the atrocities that you saw in
19 Miletici, did you learn when these atrocities took
20 place?
21 A. No, sir, we didn't.
22 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President. I
23 have no further questions.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: We were wondering if it would
25 be possible to know where Miletici is, precisely. Is
1 it far away from Ahmici?
2 A. If I could give directions? Reference to
3 Ahmici, if you go down the road towards Vitez, on the
4 road to Travnik you come to basically one prominent
5 turn off to the right which is going into the valleys.
6 You follow that road all the way up -- there's only one
7 road. It's a main drag, so to speak. You drive all
8 the way up there and it's off to your right in the
9 hills, very high in the hills.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: How far away from Ahmici,
11 roughly speaking? So how many kilometres? Ten?
12 Twenty? Anyway, we will ...
13 A. I'd say about 15 to 20, I'd say, sir.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I see there are
15 no further questions? There are no questions.
16 Thank you, Sergeant, for coming here to give
17 evidence in court. You may now be released. Thank
18 you.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: May I suggest we now take a
21 break and reconvene in half an hour, should we say at
22 twenty past four, for the Status Conference?
23 Are you going to formally close your case?
24 You are not going to make a final statement, or are
25 you?
1 MR. TERRIER: No, Mr. President, I won't give
2 any final statement. We don't have other witnesses at
3 this stage. However, but we can talk about it when we
4 come back, I will have a certain number of documents to
5 tender; for instance, we will have a certain number of
6 death certificates and other useful documents as well.
7 Maybe we could discuss the way these documents should
8 be tendered into evidence.
9 That's all I wanted to say.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: So it won't take more than
11 ten minutes.
12 MR. TERRIER: Well, I'd say fifteen.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Okay. Fifteen. Then we will
14 resume the hearing at twenty past. First of all we
15 will receive these documents and see if they can be
16 tendered into evidence and then we will do the Status
17 Conference.
18 Would you like this conference to be a closed
19 hearing? No? All right.
20 So we will rise now until twenty past four.
21 --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.
23 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President. The
24 first document we would like to tender relates to death
25 certificates. Various elements of the indictment
1 require that we bring evidence in front of you that
2 some people died during the events.
3 We have already handed to the Tribunal a
4 certain number of elements that we gathered through
5 testimonies, we have already handed in a certain number
6 of documents which show that there were 104 murders
7 during the events that relate to the accused. So the
8 figure is 104 plus a certain number of refugees who
9 died on the very same day at Ahmici.
10 Today we would like to hand to the Tribunal
11 and tender into evidence 93 death certificates. These
12 certificates were established by the administrative
13 services of the Vitez municipality, that is, the
14 service that was to register the births and deaths of
15 people over a certain territory. They were transmitted
16 to us by these services and relate to people who died
17 either on the 16th of April or the 17th of April, 1993.
18 Of course, maybe in the rebuttal case we
19 would call a representative of the Vitez municipality
20 who could offer these documents through his testimony,
21 but we think it would be simpler and more efficient to
22 present these documents following this procedure. If
23 their authenticity was to be contested, if their origin
24 was to be discussed, of course we would ask for one of
25 these witnesses to be called during our rebuttal case.
1 However, we think that the Tribunal may find
2 useful these death certificates as of today.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
4 THE REGISTRAR: 327.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?
6 MR. RADOVIC: Your Lordships, we object to
7 the inclusion of these documents in the case records as
8 evidence. It is quite true that the Prosecution
9 submitted death certificates. The death certificates
10 for individual persons may be admitted only for persons
11 identified at the burial but not death certificates
12 issued for persons not identified during the burial or
13 whose body is missing.
14 In the territory of the former Yugoslavia and
15 in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, for persons, if
16 we use the Western vocabulary, are missing, there is a
17 special procedure conducive to the establishment or the
18 ascertainment of one's death. We should therefore like
19 to have admitted into evidence death certificates only
20 for those persons of whom we are certain that they are
21 dead; and for persons that this has not been
22 established, we cannot accept them because there is no
23 manner in which one can ascertain that a certain person
24 is indeed dead.
25 We have just received this list, and at
1 present, we simply cannot say whether all the persons
2 indicated in these death certificates are indeed dead,
3 and we should like to take the liberty to, after
4 verifying the individual persons or not, and we should
5 therefore like to be allowed to state whether we object
6 or do not object to individual death certificates only
7 after verifying whether indeed that such and such a
8 person is dead and has been confirmed as dead. Thank
9 you.
10 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I think that
11 there are two different elements in what Counsel
12 Radovic has just said.
13 I think he is questioning the procedure
14 followed by the Vitez authorities and through which the
15 death certificates were issued. I don't know if
16 Counsel Radovic is contesting the authenticity itself
17 of the document, that is, the signature and the
18 authority which issued the documents, and I think that
19 it's only if Mr. Radovic is contesting the authenticity
20 of the document and the authority that issued the
21 documents, then I think we should have a discussion.
22 But if Mr. Radovic is contesting something else, then I
23 don't think it should prevent us from tendering these
24 documents into evidence, and I think I have understood
25 what Mr. Radovic said rightly. But these documents,
1 these 93 death certificates, can be admitted into
2 evidence, and we will wait for Mr. Radovic to prove
3 that the persons that were officially dead or reported
4 as dead are, in fact, alive, which would be very good
5 news.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?
7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Your Honours, just one
8 thing. A very casual glance at this text, because this
9 has not been classified properly, put in order, but we
10 see that there is a death certificate for one Ibrahim
11 Karic and it is among these death certificates, and
12 here the witness we heard today said that Ibrahim Karic
13 was alive and that his name appeared on the list of
14 dead persons by mistake. So it seems that this
15 documentation has also not been really put into proper
16 order or, rather, brought into agreement with testimony
17 of witnesses. Ibrahim Karic, number 68, is alive, as
18 the witness testified today. So I think one really has
19 to go through this list to see whose are these death
20 certificates.
21 Sixty-eight, the witness who was additionally
22 examined today.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry. Did you say it's
24 number 68, Ibrahim Karic?
25 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Quite right, Ibrahim
1 Karic. This list from the notes of the witness that we
2 checked against the HVO list.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Is he on the --
4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: His death certificate
5 is here, 00496900, he is again -- that is on this list,
6 so this list of death certificates is not accurate
7 either, but we need to go through it and then give you
8 our final view on this.
9 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, once more, as
10 far as this case in particular, the case of Ibrahim
11 Karic, if I remember well, the witness this morning or
12 yesterday, I'm not sure -- maybe we can check the
13 transcript -- the witness said that he had suppressed
14 this name on his notes because someone told him that he
15 was alive. That's all. It seems that there is a
16 contradiction between this hypothetical statement and
17 an official statement issued by an official authority
18 saying officially, and in conformity with the legal
19 procedures in this country at that time, showing that
20 there was a death. But if the quality and the identity
21 of the authority which issued this document is not
22 contested, then we can tender this document. Of
23 course, maybe this list should be compared at a later
24 stage with other lists.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We believe the
1 Prosecutor is right. These documents, the death
2 certificates, can be admitted into evidence subject, of
3 course, to any challenge from the Defence when the
4 Defence starts with its case, and then they can produce
5 evidence to the effect that the particular death
6 certificate is not accurate.
7 Yes, Counsel Pavkovic?
8 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, yesterday, when
9 we were discussing the list which was explained to us
10 by the witness, I objected then because under 18, in
11 that list and here on this list, under 82, there it was
12 NN and then somebody, whom we have failed to identify,
13 had added by hand Muzafer Puscul. Now, in this list,
14 under 82, we see that it says Muzafer Puscul who was
15 killed on the 16th of April, 1993.
16 I therefore second the proposal of my
17 colleagues to go through this more carefully, more
18 carefully, but now, because one can never be prudent
19 enough, not to admit it as evidence because it has not
20 been established beyond doubt that that person, that is
21 the anonymous person under 18, was indeed Muzafer
22 Puscul.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: We are at cross-purposes
24 because yesterday it was a different problem, whether
25 the body of a particular person buried there was the
1 body of Muzafer Puscul. The question now is whether
2 Muzafer Puscul is dead, and we have an official
3 certificate of the relevant competent authorities of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina stating that he is dead.
5 We have already ruled on this matter. This
6 will be admitted into evidence subject to any challenge
7 by the Defence; whenever you can prove that actually he
8 is not dead, he is alive. As long as you can prove
9 that Mr. Muzafer Puscul is alive, fine. It's not a
10 question of whether his body is there; whether or not
11 he's dead. This is what this set of documents is
12 designed to certify, that those people are dead.
13 All right. Any other document?
14 MR. TERRIER: The second document,
15 Mr. President, will not be contested. You will
16 remember that during the testimony of Witness II (sic),
17 there was a statement which was not signed and which
18 was handed by the Prosecution to the Defence counsel.
19 You wished that an affidavit taken from the
20 investigator of the Tribunal be handed to the Defence
21 counsel. That's what I'm doing now.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 328.
23 MR. TERRIER: I would like to make a
24 correction. It's Witness EE, EE in English.
25 The third document I would like to hand to
1 the Tribunal is this one. On various occasions, you
2 had to deal with the case related to the suitcase, the
3 briefcase that Vlatko Kupreskic had when he was
4 arrested and which contained a certain number of
5 documents. We kept one of those documents -- actually,
6 a photocopy of it -- and we would like to tender this
7 document. We have the original of this document.
8 It is an official document certifying that
9 from the 16th February, 1993, Mr. Vlatko Kupreskic was
10 a member of the HVO forces. You have the original
11 here. I can add to this document an affidavit of the
12 investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor who went
13 through the whole documents contained in the briefcase,
14 and he is saying in this document that the document we
15 are now submitting was indeed in Mr. Vlatko Kupreskic's
16 briefcase. Attached to the original we add a
17 translation into English.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 329. The English
19 translation 329A.
20 MR. TERRIER: The fourth document,
21 Mr. President, will not be contested either. Before
22 your visit to Bosnia next week, you wished to have
23 certain data, demographic information, ethnic, economic
24 and, if possible, social data regarding the various
25 ethnic groups in Bosnia. We don't have a lot of
1 information, but we would like to submit the following
2 document to you. It's the figures from the 1991
3 census, and you will see that there is a corresponding
4 map with different colours showing the distribution of
5 various ethnic groups in this area of Central Bosnia.
6 I would like to have more information to submit;
7 however, we don't have this kind of information, apart
8 from maybe the documents from Mrs. Bringa which are not
9 part of the evidence but have been tendered into
10 evidence pending a decision from the Court.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 330.
12 MR. TERRIER: We have one last document to
13 submit, but I leave it to Mr. Moskowitz to speak about
14 it.
15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, there is one
16 other document that we have. It was, in fact, filed on
17 September 11th, 1998, pursuant to Rule 94 bis,
18 testimony of expert witness, and it was filed and
19 provided, copies provided to Defence counsel to
20 determine whether or not Defence counsel would accept
21 this information and not require an expert witness to
22 be called.
23 I do not believe that we have received a
24 response from Defence counsel one way or the other
25 regarding this exhibit, and we therefore wish to tender
1 it now and assume that Defence counsel does not object
2 to it.
3 It is simply a report that lists the level of
4 destruction of properties in the Lasva Valley, and
5 particularly mentions Ahmici and the number of houses
6 that were destroyed in Ahmici. The report was produced
7 by the International Management Group which conducted
8 this investigation, I believe in 1975 (sic), for UNHCR
9 in order to make an assessment of the damage in the
10 valley and then to make a recommendation about the cost
11 for repair. In fact, when the Tribunal goes to Ahmici
12 next week, I think you will see that there has been a
13 good deal of repair going on in Ahmici even now.
14 We have attached to this report the statement
15 of the expert witness that we would have called, Mediha
16 Mlaco, who participated as a civil engineer in the
17 survey and specifically went into Ahmici and helped in
18 compiling the statistics for that particular village
19 which can be found on page 38 of the IMF report under
20 the heading of "Vitez," and under that heading of
21 "Vitez" there is the village of Ahmici, and then next
22 to the village of Ahmici, a series of columns listing
23 the kinds of damage noted by this particular witness.
24 So we would offer this evidence to the
25 Tribunal because we feel it is useful for the Tribunal
1 in determining the level of destruction in the village
2 and goes particularly, we think, to Count 1, the
3 persecution count.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 331.
5 MR. TERRIER: We are finished,
6 Mr. President. Thank you.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Exhibit 331.
8 (Status Conference follows)
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