1 Thursday, 6 July 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. You may be

7 seated.

8 Good morning to the technical booth. Good morning, interpreters.

9 Good morning, legal assistants and court reporters, the registrar. I see

10 Ms. Hollis, Mr. Saxon, and Mr. Waidyaratne, as well as all Defence

11 counsel. Good morning.

12 We're going to resume our hearings today. Before beginning, I

13 should like to say that we have tried to reach a compromise regarding the

14 lights. Yesterday we took some steps, and the lights in front of

15 Mr. Prcac have been dimmed. We're going to try to work under the best

16 possible working conditions. We have tried to strike a balance among

17 various interests.

18 Good morning, Witness. You're going to continue your testimony

19 today. I remind you that you are still testifying under oath. So you

20 will be continuing to answer questions put to you by Mr. Saxon.

21 Mr. Saxon, your turn.

22 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 WITNESS: WITNESS Y [Resumed]

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Examined by Mr. Saxon: [Continued]

1 Q. Witness Y, good morning. Prior to the conflict in 1992, did you

2 know a man with the nickname Rizo?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How did you know Rizo?

5 A. Rizo was a gentleman from Prijedor who worked in the iron ore

6 mine. I know him by the name Rizo; I do not know his surname.

7 Q. Did you ever see Rizo's body in the Omarska camp?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you describe how you came to see Rizo's body?

10 A. We were called out by the guards, three or four men, to come out

11 and to carry with them a blanket. So we went to the left of the "white

12 house." Between the "red room" and the "white house," there was a small

13 stream, and in that stream we found the body of Mr. Rizo.

14 Q. Can you describe the condition of the body of Mr. Rizo?

15 A. It was in a state of disintegration. There were ants and insects

16 all over the body.

17 Q. What, if anything, did you do with the body?

18 A. We loaded the body onto a small truck, a 2-tonne truck, a TAM

19 truck.

20 Q. If you know, what was the ethnicity of the man that you knew as

21 Rizo?

22 A. A Muslim.

23 Q. Were you able to observe any injuries on that body?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What were those injuries?

1 A. There were injuries on the skull; the skull was cracked. There

2 was a fractured arm. And I don't remember any more.

3 Q. Witness Y, yesterday you explained that in the Omarska camp Mladjo

4 Radic was known as Krkan, and you mentioned the guards at Omarska who were

5 on Krkan's shift, as you described it. What was Krkan's position at

6 Omarska?

7 A. I think he was shift leader, because when that shift came on duty,

8 people would say, "Krkan's shift is coming."

9 Q. What else, if anything, did you observe or hear that led you to

10 believe that Krkan was a shift leader?

11 A. Mr. Krkan -- there was Mr. Irfan Zenkovic in the camp and he

12 seemed to have better relations with Krkan from before. Mr. Radic went to

13 the Zenkovic house to bring food and parcels, of course in exchange for a

14 fee.

15 Q. How do you know this, Witness Y?

16 A. Mr. Zenkovic personally told me that.

17 Q. What else, if anything, did you observe or hear that led you to

18 believe that Krkan, or Mladjo Radic, was a shift leader?

19 A. Mr. Radic would come in a luxury passenger car, whereas the

20 members of the shift would come on duty in a bus.

21 Q. Witness Y, during the time you were held in Omarska, did you ever

22 see any camp personnel intervene to stop the abuse of prisoners?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you ever see anything to indicate to you that those who abused

25 or mistreated the prisoners were punished for what they did?

1 A. No, never.

2 Q. Did you ever receive any medical care for the injuries that you

3 received while you were in Omarska camp?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you ever see any detainees receive medical care for their

6 injuries, other detainees?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Other than the guard you described yesterday as Kobac, did any

9 camp personnel ever ask you how you received the bruises, cuts, or

10 injuries that you had on your body?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did any camp personnel, other than Kobac, ever ask about your

13 condition?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Witness Y, while you were detained in the Omarska camp, to your

16 knowledge, did any group of detainees ever attack the guards of the camp?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did any group of detainees ever attempt to get out of the camp?

19 A. As far as I can recollect, no.

20 Q. Witness Y, were you taken from the Omarska camp to Manjaca on the

21 6th of August, 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How long were you held in the Manjaca camp?

24 A. Four months.

25 Q. What was your physical condition like when you were first arrested

1 and brought to the Keraterm camp?

2 A. I had an athletic build. I had 95 kilograms in weight. I had

3 good muscle structure.

4 Q. What was your physical condition like when you were taken from

5 Keraterm to Omarska?

6 A. I was still in pretty good physical condition, until Omarska. I

7 only spent 12 days in Keraterm.

8 Q. When you were taken from Omarska to Manjaca on the 6th of August,

9 what was your physical condition like?

10 A. By then I was extremely weak, hungry, skinny, dirty.

11 Q. Did you have continuing physical effects from the abuse you

12 received in Omarska and the conditions in those camps?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you describe those continuing effects, please?

15 A. I have an injury on the back of my skull with a

16 two-centimetre-deep cut. I have joint inflammation from my shoulders to

17 my knees and ankles. I have damaged kidneys; I undergo regular medical

18 checkups for my kidneys.

19 Q. Witness Y, could you describe Krkan as you saw him in 1992?

20 A. Mr. Mladen Radic was tall, about 185 centimetres. He weighed

21 about 100 to 105 kilograms. He was in good physical condition, with an

22 oval face, an unwrinkled face, with a neat hairstyle.

23 Q. Could you describe his build at that time?

24 A. He was more fat, or rather a heavily built, tall man, a big man.

25 Q. Although eight years have now passed, do you think that you could

1 recognise Krkan, or Mladjo Radic, today?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Witness Y, I'd like to ask you to please look around the courtroom

4 and tell the Judges if the man that you knew as Mladjo Radic, or Krkan, is

5 present today.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you describe where Mr. Radic is sitting?

8 A. Mr. Radic is sitting in the last row, in the corner, in a blue

9 suit, a blue tie with white spots, a white shirt, greyish hair.

10 Q. Just to be clear, when you say "the last row," is that the row

11 next to the wall or the row away from the wall?

12 A. The row next to the wall.

13 Q. When you say "in the corner," where is Mr. Radic sitting in

14 relation to any security guards?

15 A. He is sitting on the left of the guard next to the door.

16 Q. By "the left," do you mean from your left or from Mr. Radic's

17 left?

18 A. On the left-hand side of the guard.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. SAXON: May the record reflect that the witness has identified

21 Mr. Radic.

22 Your Honour, if we could go into private session just briefly,

23 please.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let's go into private

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17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we are now in public

19 session.

20 Mr. Krstan Simic, what will be the order of the cross-examination

21 by the Defence counsel?

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence will

23 follow the order of the indictment, except in one case. The Defence of

24 Mr. Kos will be the last one to cross-examine the witness, if there should

25 be any questions by other Defence teams.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. And what about you,

2 Mr. Simic?

3 Witness Y, now you're going to answer questions that will be put

4 to you by the Defence counsel. They will introduce themselves to you.

5 Mr. Simic, you have the floor.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Before I proceed with the cross-examination, let me say just one

8 sentence in relation to the principles that are contained in your decision

9 regarding the obligation of the Prosecutor.

10 Witness Y was initially proposed as the witness who was supposed

11 to testify against Mr. Radic concerning Counts 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 of the

12 indictment, and also in respect of Mr. Zigic, Count 6 to 7. Therefore,

13 this witness was never intended to testify in support of the allegations

14 made against Mr. Kvocka. However, bearing in mind the fact that the

15 witness, apart from his testimony -- apart from his statement which was

16 given over a period of four days, he now mentions certain facts that were

17 never mentioned in the statement. This relates to the issue of disclosure

18 and discovery obligations by the Prosecutor.

19 We wanted to ask the Court's indulgence and to let us

20 cross-examine this witness, although we should not have cross-examined

21 this witness bearing in mind the attitude of the Prosecutor and your

22 decision whereby the Prosecutor is required to announce his witnesses in

23 accordance with the provisions of Rule 65.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, generally speaking,

25 you're right. But I have to ask you a specific question. Is there any

1 difficulty for you as regards the cross-examination of the witness

2 concerning what the witness has said here in a spontaneous manner? You

3 know that one of the general criminal law principles is the discovery of

4 the truth, and we have to do everything in order to discover the truth.

5 If a witness says here, "I know so and so," and even if the Prosecutor has

6 not announced his testimony, the Judges cannot preclude the witness in

7 continuing his testimony in that respect. The witness has to say the

8 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So that is one of the

9 general principles of the criminal law procedure.

10 So I have to ask you, are you in a position to cross-examine this

11 witness concerning the information that he has provided in respect of

12 Mr. Kvocka?

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We are in

14 the position to cross-examine the witness, because we do not want any

15 further delays in this trial. But we had to draw your attention to this

16 problem, because at one point we will find ourselves in a very difficult

17 situation.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Mr. Simic,

19 and that is why I said that, generally speaking, you are right. But I had

20 to ask you this specific question, whether or not you were in the position

21 to proceed with the cross-examination of this witness.

22 You may now proceed, and thank you very much for drawing our

23 attention to this fact.

24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

1 Q. Witness Y, during your testimony yesterday you stated that you

2 arrived in Omarska on the 4th of July, 1992. Could you please describe

3 the way in which you were transported from Keraterm to Omarska on the 4th

4 of July?

5 A. By buses.

6 Q. How many buses were there?

7 A. Two.

8 Q. How many people, approximately, were there in buses?

9 A. Approximately 105 to 108 persons.

10 Q. In both buses?

11 A. Yes, in both buses.

12 Q. How was the escort organised, that is, the security provided for

13 the buses?

14 A. The security consisted of the special forces from Banja Luka who

15 were wearing dark blue camouflage uniforms and red berets.

16 Q. You have mentioned an incident involving bathing in which

17 Mr. Kvocka, as you said, was present.

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Could you please be more specific and tell us when this incident

20 of bathing occurred in relation to your arrival on the 4th of July, 1992?

21 A. It happened around 20 or maybe 25 days after I arrived in

22 Omarska.

23 Q. Can we then agree that it was between the 25th and the 30th of

24 July?

25 A. Yes, thereabouts.

1 Q. Thank you. You also stated that Mr. Kvocka, whom you used to see

2 during your stay there, shouted very often.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you describe his voice?

5 A. He had a squealing, squeaking voice, like a bird, like a magpie.

6 Q. You gave a statement to the representatives of the Prosecution.

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. This took place for four days.

9 A. No.

10 Q. It is stated here that the interview occurred on the 24th and 31st

11 of August, and then on the 2nd of September and on the 8th of December

12 1994; do you remember that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, I think that we need

15 specific references of the statement. Was that the reason why you

16 reacted, Mr. Saxon?

17 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. That was one reason why I

18 rose to my feet. The other reason is that out of fairness to the witness,

19 I would ask that a copy of his statement in a language that he understands

20 be placed in front of him so that the witness can see the text that

21 Mr. Simic is referring to.

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will read only one

23 sentence, so maybe there is no need for that. The text is quite

24 voluminous, so we have to bear in mind your decision with respect to

25 that.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. You can

2 mention the date of the statement, the subject of the statement, and if

3 the witness does not recognise the subject of the statement, then we can

4 show the statement to the witness and put it on the ELMO.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Simic.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Witness, would your description correspond to the description that

8 you provided in your statement? I will quote, you describe Mr. Kvocka in

9 your statement as follows: "He was tall, he had a high-pitched voice,

10 almost like a woman's voice."

11 A. Yes. Well, women tend to speak like magpies.

12 Q. I didn't say that, Witness Y, you said that.

13 A. My apologies to the ladies.

14 Q. In your statement, Witness, you said, I quote, "Kvocka was a

15 member but he was also present when other shifts were on duty," that he

16 was a member of Krkan's shift; is that correct?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

19 questions to ask of this witness.

20 Thank you very much, Mr. Y.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Simic.

22 According to what Mr. Simic has announced, Mr. Fila will now take

23 the floor to cross-examine the witness.

24 Mr. Fila, let's hear you. Please don't forget to pause between

25 questions and answers.

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

2 Q. Good morning, Witness Y. My name is Toma Fila, and together with

3 my colleague Mr. Jovanovic, I am representing Mladjo Radic. Good

4 morning. I will refer to you as sir because your name is not "Y" and that

5 is why I will address you as sir.

6 A. I am no sir. I have my own name.

7 Q. Yes, I know that, but I just didn't want to refer to you with a

8 pseudonym.

9 In your testimony you stated that you spent some time in the big

10 room in the hangar.

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. Were there any machines in that room?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You spoke about how you went to the toilet during the time you

15 spent detained in the hangar.

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Did you personally ever go to that toilet?

18 A. Thank God I didn't have to go to the toilet because I didn't have

19 any bowel movement for 42 days.

20 Q. Could you tell us more about that? You describe what happened to

21 people on the way to the toilet, but whom did those people see on the way

22 to the toilet?

23 A. I don't understand your question.

24 Q. Well, could you just describe the way, how it happened?

25 A. Well, the detainee would first ask the guard to let him go to the

1 toilet. After he had given him permission to do so, he would go to the

2 toilet. And following that man, two guards would go, allegedly to show

3 him how to flush water in the toilet, how he would use the bucket and

4 everything. But it was just a pretext for beating him up. The person who

5 was in the toilet would come back all beaten up and covered in blood.

6 Q. When you say "guards," are you referring to the guards who were in

7 the room that you indicated?

8 A. Yes, those were the guards who were changing positions, changing

9 places. It depended on the shift. Next to the toilet there was a table,

10 and at that table, most of the time, four or five of them would sit and

11 drink beer, the nektar beer.

12 Q. Were they regular guards, or did they have any superior function?

13 A. As far as I remember, they were just regular, ordinary guards.

14 Q. When people would go to the toilet, did they have to go in groups

15 or would they request to be taken out individually?

16 A. We would go in groups, between 5 to 10, outside. When we had to

17 urinate, then we would be taken outside in groups. But when people had to

18 go to the toilet for a bowel movement, they would be taken out

19 individually.

20 Q. During your stay in the big room, did you see a person by the name

21 of Ermin Strikovic?

22 A. I don't know the man.

23 Q. When you went to eat, that would usually take place during the

24 day.

25 A. I didn't mention that in my statement.

1 Q. Yes, but I'm referring to the restaurant, when you went to the

2 restaurant to eat, to have a meal.

3 A. It was not much of a meal, you know.

4 Q. Well, you can call it whatever you want but I'll be referring to

5 it as a meal. How would that be organised?

6 A. We would walk in columns of 30 and we had only three minutes to

7 run to the kitchen, to eat the food, and we would have only one minute to

8 come back.

9 Q. Before you would leave for lunch, did you have to line up, and

10 where?

11 A. The columns would be lined up in the hangar, and there would

12 always be one line waiting for the previous one to come back so that they

13 can go when their turn comes.

14 Q. You said in response to a question put to you by the Prosecutor,

15 you said where you saw Krkan.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where else did you see him?

18 A. Most of the times I would see him in the entrance to the kitchen.

19 I saw him two or three times there, and then again on two or three

20 occasions, I saw him in the "glass house," in the staircase.

21 Q. Did you see him while you were on the pista?

22 A. Yes, and when we went for lunch from the hangar.

23 Q. Well, you're even more generous. I didn't dare call it a lunch.

24 I simply said a meal?

25 A. Well, the food comes from God. It doesn't depend on who is doing

1 the distribution.

2 Q. But you didn't see him except for the occasions that you

3 mentioned.

4 A. No, I didn't.

5 Q. You mentioned shifts.

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. They were changing from time to time.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. While you were on the pista, you were probably able to see that.

10 A. Yes, I was.

11 Q. How was it organised?

12 A. In an imperceptible way. We didn't even notice when a change

13 would occur. All of a sudden we would see different faces, different

14 guards. A bus would come, and it would be behind the kitchen and they

15 would come from that area.

16 Q. And the other shift would go back.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. There was not any formal ceremony of that changing of the guard.

19 A. No, of course not.

20 Q. You said that Krkan used to come in a car?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What kind of car was it?

23 A. I think it was a Mercedes. I don't remember the colour.

24 Q. Could you tell us at what time of the day you used to see him in

25 that Mercedes?

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1 A. At 7.00 a.m., when he would either leave home or come for work.

2 Q. Where was the vehicle parked?

3 A. Somewhere behind the kitchen or in the area where the water taps

4 were, near the so-called Mujo's garage.

5 Q. This is what you saw from the pista?

6 A. Yes. The Mercedes would be there stationed very often.

7 Q. Do you know anyone else who used to drive in a Mercedes?

8 A. There were two other Mercedes, green in colour, that used to

9 come.

10 Q. Who was in them?

11 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the answer of the witness.

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Can we therefore conclude that except for the time you spent in

14 the big room in the hangar, and except for the time you went for lunch and

15 to the toilet, you did not leave the room, you were locked up there.

16 A. We were not locked up. Three very large doors were opened all the

17 time. We could leave the room, we could go outside for about ten minutes

18 and spend some time out in the open, in the sun.

19 Q. So you were able to go out from time to time.

20 A. Yes, that was the only occasion when we were taken out.

21 Q. You spoke about the "red house."

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Between the "red house" and the "white house" or between the "red

24 house" and the hangar, was there any barbed wire or any other type of

25 fence, to the best of your recollection?

1 A. To the best of my recollection, there was a kind of ditch, a small

2 canal, and there was a little wood or, rather, brambles. I believe that

3 there was a wire fence on one side of the ditch but I'm not sure.

4 Q. But the wire did not obstruct your view.

5 A. Well, out of fear we didn't dare observe and watch.

6 Q. Yes, but I'm referring merely to the height of that fence.

7 In your testimony you said that a Croat national once told

8 Krkan -- (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 A. Are we in closed session at this moment?

11 Q. No, there is no need for a closed session. I didn't mention your

12 name, Witness.

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session,

15 Mr. Fila. Do you wish to go into a private session?

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I just wanted to ask -- well, yes, if

17 necessary, we can do that. I do not intend to identify the person.

18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, information regarding the former place of

19 residence of this witness could be used to identify him, so we would ask

20 if these questions need to be asked, that we go into private session.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we're going to go into

22 private session so that Mr. Fila may put his question, and this reference

23 to the former place of residence of the witness needs to be redacted,

24 Madam Registrar. Please have this reference redacted.

25 You may continue, Mr. Fila.

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25 [Open session]

1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Who was Irfan Zenkovic, please?

3 A. I beg your pardon?

4 Q. Irfan Zenkovic. You mentioned a person called Irfan Zenkovic.

5 Who was he?

6 A. He was president of the SDA.

7 Q. And he brought him food?

8 A. For money.

9 Q. That's what you heard; you didn't see it?

10 A. Mr. Zenkovic told me that.

11 Q. You mentioned a person called the "karate kid."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did the other detainees call him by that name?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If I understood you correctly, he called himself that.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fila.

20 Mr. Tosic, if you please.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Tosic:

22 Q. Good morning, Witness Y. I am attorney Simo Tosic, and with me is

23 attorney Slobodan Stojanovic. We represent Zoran Zigic in these

24 proceedings.

25 In your testimony you said that you spent 12 days in Keraterm,

1 from the 22nd of June until the 4th of July. Can we agree that those

2 dates are correct? The 23rd of June until the 4th of July.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You described an incident when a vehicle arrived during the

5 night. Could you tell us when that was in relation to your arrival in

6 Keraterm?

7 A. I arrived between 4.00 and 5.00 in the afternoon, and the vehicle

8 I mentioned arrived at about 11.00 or 11.30 that night.

9 Q. Do you mean that first night?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. (redacted).

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentlemen keep mentioning my

13 residence.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Tosic, you know that there

15 are protective measures in relation to the identity of this witness. So

16 if you have questions in this area --

17 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] No, I'm so sorry, Your Honour. I

18 apologise.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, this reference

20 needs to be redacted as well.

21 Mr. Tosic, do you need to go into private session.

22 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] No. No, thank you, Your Honour. I do

23 apologise.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let's remain, then, in open

25 session.

1 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Can we continue?

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you may continue.

3 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Will you please tell us whether, at any time before this event,

5 did you visit this Keraterm compound ever on any kind of business?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You said that you spent the night in room number 4.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You said that you saw the headlights of a kombi vehicle, a van or

10 something like a van coming from the gates.

11 A. I didn't say from the gates.

12 Q. From the entrance?

13 A. No, I said from the outside.

14 Q. Very well. From the outside. Being a driver, could you perhaps

15 identify what kind of vehicle it was, or is it just your assumption that

16 it was a van or something like that?

17 A. It is a kombi or a small TAM van of one and a half to two tonnes,

18 with a very strong engine, a noisy engine. I can't say any more than

19 that.

20 Q. The possibility of it being a passenger vehicle is excluded,

21 then? In view of what you said, it was a freight vehicle.

22 A. No, I can't say that because I didn't see anything.

23 Q. The room you were in, how many doors and windows were there?

24 A. One metal door in the middle of the room.

25 Q. And the windows?

1 A. The whole length of the room, at a level of 180 centimetres, and

2 then a window of 1 metre, 1 metre, 20.

3 Q. On the door of that room number 4, was it entirely closed or were

4 there any glass panes on that door?

5 A. The door was closed but I think that there was a window above the

6 door.

7 Q. Can you tell us at what level?

8 A. The door was 2 metres high.

9 Q. Does that mean that the window was above that door, above the

10 level of 2 metres?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. Who was it that told you that night that Duca and Zigi are coming?

13 A. People from Puharska were mostly in that room, and they said,

14 "Ziga and Duca are coming."

15 Q. Could you tell us the name of that person?

16 A. They were all saying that.

17 Q. How far away was that person from you when he said that?

18 A. It wasn't one person but more than ten people.

19 Q. Where were you in that room when the vehicle arrived?

20 A. Right next to the door. I was sitting on a crate that held

21 bottles.

22 Q. Where were the other detainees in that room when the vehicle

23 arrived? Were they lying down, sitting down, or were they standing?

24 A. They were mostly lying down.

25 Q. What was the visibility inside? Was there a light on?

1 A. Yes, light was coming in through the windows.

2 Q. Can you remember generally what visibility was like that night?

3 A. No.

4 Q. If it had been daytime, would you have been able to see the

5 arrival of the vehicle through those windows?

6 A. Yes, if we were to climb up onto something to see outside.

7 Q. But if you were not to climb on anything, if you were standing

8 simply on the floor of the room, could you see outside the arrival or

9 movement of the vehicle or people?

10 A. No. You could only hear sounds and voices.

11 Q. You said that you know Drago Tokmadzic.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you tell us who the four detainees were who carried him into

14 room number 4?

15 A. Four detainees.

16 Q. Can you remember their names?

17 A. No.

18 Q. In relation to your arrival in Keraterm, could you remember when

19 this incident occurred with Drago Tokmadzic, on what day in relation to

20 the day you arrived?

21 A. On the 24th, in the evening.

22 Q. You mean the 24th of June, don't you?

23 A. Yes, the 24th of June, in the evening.

24 Q. One more question. Do you know a person called Edin Ganic?

25 A. Edin Ganic, yes.

1 Q. Was that person with you either in Keraterm or in Omarska?

2 A. In Keraterm, yes, but in another room.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Tosic.

6 Mr. Jovan Simic.

7 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Jovan

9 Simic.

10 Mr. Nikolic.

11 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence will not

12 cross-examine this witness. Thank you.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, have you any

14 additional questions.

15 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would ask the Court's indulgence to

16 allow me to respond to the objection raised by Defence counsel for

17 Mr. Kvocka because it goes to matters that are beyond this witness.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Additional questions,

19 Mr. Saxon.

20 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, Mr. Saxon would do that, however, we

21 have no further questions. But in order to respond to --

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] To respond to the questions

23 raised by Mr. Krstan Simic, yes. I'm sorry for not giving you the chance

24 to do that earlier on, but please proceed.

25 MS. HOLLIS: It's not a problem at all, Your Honour, thank you.

1 Your Honour, the Prosecution would note two things about the

2 objection, that two issues are involved in that objection. The first

3 issue has to do with management of the case, and that is Rule 65 ter. The

4 second issue has to do with notice to the accused. Notice to the accused

5 is carried out by the indictment and by all disclosure that is provided to

6 the accused, including witness statements. Defence counsel for Kvocka

7 asked the witness about a statement that was disclosed to the Defence. It

8 is a statement that is dated 24 and 31 August, 2 September and 8 December

9 1994. It is a very lengthy statement. Defence counsel referred to a

10 paragraph on page 19 in the English version of that statement. The

11 Prosecution believes it is important to the issue of notice that all of

12 that paragraph be put on the record. The paragraph begins:

13 "Kvocka, but he was also present on other shifts. I believe that

14 at some time he was the deputy commander of the camp or held some high

15 position of authority." Then it goes on to say, "He was tall and had a

16 high-pitched voice like a female. He was always yelling." Your Honours,

17 this provides notice to the Defence for Kvocka, that the witness may have

18 been speaking of their client. So we suggest to you that it was not a

19 fully good-faith argument that they had no notice. They did have notice.

20 The issue of case management is an issue that Your Honours have

21 addressed, and the Prosecution will do as Your Honours have now directed

22 and will provide all of the points about which a witness will testify. In

23 that regard, we note that, of course, as you yourselves noted, this was

24 spontaneous on the part of the witness.

25 We suggest that Rule 65 ter which in our view has to do primarily

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1 with case management, but that Rule should not prevent the admission of

2 relevant and probative evidence if it will assist Your Honours in

3 determining the truth of the matters that are before Your Honours. And

4 that is the submission we would like to make.

5 Thank you, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, have you anything to

7 say in response, without opening a debate about it? I wish to remind you

8 that we don't need a debate. We have made a ruling. And if we really

9 need a debate, we will have to do so one afternoon. But very briefly,

10 Mr. Simic.

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I shall be

12 very brief.

13 It is quite correct that we have debated this issue at great

14 length, and the witness, outside the wish of the Prosecution, opened this

15 issue because the amended indictment charges Mr. Kvocka only for the

16 period up to the 30th of June. So I wanted to draw attention to this so

17 that we shouldn't waste time, not to raise questions outside the

18 indictment and outside the rules, because we are only opening up disputed

19 issues which we don't need to do. Thank you.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There is a point over which you

21 are right. If the facts go outside the scope of the indictment, then we

22 mustn't discuss them. But there is one thing that is important, and I

23 already reminded you of that: Now it is the time for the presentation of

24 evidence by the Prosecution, and the time will come for the presentation

25 of evidence by the Defence. And this must be taken into account,

1 especially 65 ter. And on the basis of that, the Defence knows of the

2 points that will be raised through the pre-trial brief and through the

3 indictment.

4 I would like you to understand that the Tribunal cannot limit

5 itself to the strict and formal Rules. You know that well. You are

6 attorneys. When a witness arrives, he takes an oath to tell the truth and

7 the whole truth. The Judges cannot stop their ears and eyes when a

8 witness says, "I have something to say." We can't tell him, "You can't

9 say that because the Prosecution has not presented that information, nor

10 the Defence." As you know, the Chamber too can ask the witness to say

11 things.

12 So as you know, everything must be done but within the framework

13 of a certain organisation which guarantees the rights of the accused to a

14 fair trial, but the truth must be discovered. And as you know, the notion

15 of equity requires equality between the Defence and the Prosecution in

16 order to establish that truth.

17 I do not wish to dwell on the matter further, and I am now going

18 to give my colleagues and myself to ask questions on behalf of the Judges

19 of this witness.

20 Judge Fouad Riad, you have the floor.

21 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness Y. Do you hear me?

24 A. Good morning.

25 JUDGE RIAD: I would like to understand more or to have some more

1 clarifications of certain things you said.

2 Concerning Krkan, you were trying to tell us that there were signs

3 which made him more important than the others. I think yesterday you

4 mentioned that a man called Nono, he was a hotel manager, went to him and

5 he was a friend, he went to him and asked for protection and he suggested

6 or he planned that you should stand in a line, to form a line, and in this

7 line you would be identified and treated better.

8 Was this really followed and obeyed by the guards, and were you,

9 in fact, treated better according to this order by Krkan?

10 A. We weren't beaten, that's all.

11 JUDGE RIAD: I mean you were treated more favourably than the

12 others?

13 A. Yes. From that time on, this group that had been separated was

14 not taken out for beating.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Are there any other signs of real authority of

16 Mr. Krkan which you noticed, apart from coming, as you said today, in a

17 luxury car?

18 A. He spent most of the time in the offices where the investigations

19 were carried out. He was not in the same places as the ordinary guards.

20 JUDGE RIAD: As Mr. Kvocka is concerned, you also mentioned that

21 he would be yelling and giving orders while you were going to have your

22 lunch. Was this a common thing among all the guards, to give orders and

23 to yell, or only a few were really in charge and had a loud voice giving

24 orders?

25 A. Several of them would make a lot of noise and issue orders; others

1 were quieter but beat more. So they were different.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Did you notice any hierarchy in those who were giving

3 orders?

4 A. No.

5 JUDGE RIAD: You did not. You mentioned also concerning

6 Mr. Kvocka that he was sitting and giving orders to those who were bathing

7 you with fire hoses to shoot the water more strongly, and they did. Was

8 he participating in the thing or was he sitting and giving orders? Was he

9 also one of the guards shooting water and laughing with them, or was he

10 taking another position and just sitting down while the others are

11 working?

12 A. Mr. Kvocka was sitting against the wall of the hangar, between the

13 "white house" and the hangar building. And the guards were bathing us on

14 the left-hand side of the "white house," along that little stream.

15 JUDGE RIAD: So he was not participating with them, just one of

16 the guards.

17 A. No, he was sitting on a chair and issuing orders and laughing.

18 JUDGE RIAD: You also mentioned now that Albanians would be called

19 out and beaten, and one died after vomiting eight days. Was there some

20 kind of categories of people, Albanians or others, who were receiving

21 special treatment? Was there discrimination or a priority in treating

22 people badly or better?

23 A. This was happening in the Keraterm camp, and over there, there

24 were some sort of priorities. Engineers, doctors, and professors, by

25 their educational level; then transport company owners, wealthy people;

1 then officers in reserve, policemen, of Croat and Muslim ethnicity. Those

2 were the categories. Then the Albanians were a separate category of their

3 own. They were called out one night and beat them up, and one of them was

4 returned to our room who was dying for eight days, until he finally passed

5 away.

6 JUDGE RIAD: So the intellectual elite and the Albanians had

7 received a more severe treatment; is that what you are saying? They had

8 priority not to be treated better, to be treated worse.

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Also you spoke about Ziga and Duca who used to come,

11 and when you saw the lights of the vehicle, everybody was in great fear.

12 Were these two part of the staff of the camp, the regular staff, or were

13 they visitors?

14 A. They were frequent visitors.

15 JUDGE RIAD: What was exactly the purpose of the visit, to your

16 knowledge?

17 A. As far as I know, they mostly came with lists of people that

18 needed to be called out and executed.

19 JUDGE RIAD: I'm sorry. They came with the lists? They came with

20 lists? They were messengers?

21 A. They came with names. I didn't see the lists. They would call

22 out names every night.

23 JUDGE RIAD: But they also participated in the beating or in any

24 action?

25 A. Yes.

1 JUDGE RIAD: How do you know that they came with names?

2 A. I heard that from the other detainees, that they were the ones.

3 JUDGE RIAD: You also spoke, just a small detail, that Tokmadzic,

4 I think, was shoved in a barrel with blue water, if you remember. Did you

5 realise, was this chemical water? What was it? Why would they put

6 somebody in blue water?

7 A. To bring him back to life. It was ordinary water prepared for the

8 other detainees to wash with.

9 JUDGE RIAD: I see. So it was nothing -- because you said blue

10 water, and water is not blue usually.

11 A. I mentioned that the barrel was blue. The water was ordinary

12 water.

13 JUDGE RIAD: I see. Perhaps a last question concerning your

14 identification of one of the men sitting. You said he was called

15 Mr. Kobac. For you, he was Mr. Kobac. Do you know any other name for

16 him?

17 A. No. I know his face. And this nickname that I gave him, I called

18 him that.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Does this have any meaning for you in the language?

20 A. Yes. It's a bird of prey, a hawk.

21 JUDGE RIAD: It's a bird of prey. But you said that he was kind

22 to you. Did I understand you rightly?

23 A. No.

24 JUDGE RIAD: So why did you call him a bird of prey?

25 A. You misunderstood me. He wasn't kind to me. I didn't dare tell

1 the gentleman that I had been beaten the day before. I told him that I

2 hit myself against the doorway, and his answer was, "It's the doorways

3 here that are killing you."

4 JUDGE RIAD: Didn't he ask you -- he was the only one to ask you

5 what happened to you.

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE RIAD: And you think that's not -- that was a way of caring

8 for you or a way of being sarcastic?

9 A. It was a form of sarcasm. If I had said I had been beaten, then

10 he would have beat me as well.

11 JUDGE RIAD: I see. Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Fouad Riad.

13 Madam Judge Wald.

14 JUDGE WALD: Witness Y, you told us that soon after you got to

15 Keraterm, this incident occurred where the other detainees said, when you

16 saw the headlights of the vehicle at night, "Zigic and Duca are coming

17 again to kill," and then Mr. Tokmadzic was called out. Who called him

18 out? Was it a regular guard that called him out or was it somebody who

19 was not a regular guard? Who called him out of the room, Tokmadzic?

20 A. These gentlemen who had come in the vehicle.

21 JUDGE WALD: So they called him from outside, though. They just

22 called him to come. You didn't see them; right? Is that right? Did I

23 understand you correctly? You didn't see these men. You heard them call

24 him out.

25 A. Yes.

1 JUDGE WALD: Then you told us that when the four detainees brought

2 him back, you heard an argument outside and someone said words to the

3 effect, "You can't do anything you want or you won't be allowed to come

4 back into the camp." I believe you testified to that. Were you able to

5 recognise whether the person who said, "You can't do anything you want or

6 you won't be allowed to come into the camp" was a voice you recognised as

7 that of a regular guard, or a voice you recognised in any other way, or

8 somebody -- a voice you didn't recognise at all? The person that you

9 heard out in the hall or outside the room saying, "You can't do anything

10 you want or you won't be able to come back in the camp."

11 A. One of the four who were carrying Drago back in knew Mr. Kajin,

12 and he shouted, "Kajin." After that the argument started. So I think

13 that Kajin was preventing this group and was saying that they wouldn't

14 come back to the camp, and that sort of thing.

15 JUDGE WALD: So one of the detainees who may have known him before

16 was the one who actually stood up and said, "You won't be allowed to come

17 back again."

18 A. No. No. No.

19 JUDGE WALD: Go ahead. Straighten me out.

20 A. One of the detainees called out the shift leader, Kajin, that was

21 his name, and he used to be his friend. And the shift leader, Kajin, I

22 think that he was the one who intervened.

23 JUDGE WALD: All right. All right. I have it now. Thank you.

24 I'm glad you straightened that out.

25 After you got to Omarska, did you ever hear any talk of Zigic or

1 see or hear about him again in Omarska, as opposed to Keraterm where this

2 incident allegedly occurred?

3 A. I never saw him. I didn't know him from before and nobody told me

4 that that is Zigic for me to see him. But I had heard that both Zigic and

5 Duca came to Omarska, and the two Banovici from Keraterm.

6 JUDGE WALD: My last question is, you told us about an incident in

7 which Mr. Kvocka was present during the hosing down of the detainees, and

8 you placed that incident sometime in mid-July. You also said that you saw

9 Mr. Kvocka several other times around the camp. Can you just tell me

10 whether you saw him throughout the period that you were in Omarska, or did

11 you ever see him after the hosing incident?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE WALD: You did see him after the hosing incident; is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Wald.

18 Witness Y, I have only one question. Have you got anything to say

19 that hasn't been asked of you? It's a difficult question. You can say

20 yes or no.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine.

23 Mr. Fila.

24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in answer to a question

25 by Judge Riad, which both the Prosecutor and I had asked, a slightly

1 different answer was given. If I may be allowed, in accordance with Your

2 Honours' ruling, may I ask whether the witness knows how Krkan provided

3 the protection, how he did it. If I may be allowed to ask this additional

4 question. In what way did he provide protection for this group.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me ask that question.

6 A question for you. Mr. Krkan, did he provide some kind of

7 protection for some people, and if he did, what kind of protection was it

8 and how did he provide that kind of protection?

9 A. I have already said two or three times. Mr. Nono, from my place

10 of residence, was a friend of Mr. Radic's, and he went to talk to

11 Mr. Radic -- I don't know how -- and he came back with the information,

12 saying, "From now on, people from our village will not be taken out and

13 beaten up." Then we formed a line. We all slept against the third door

14 of the hangar, or the first door going from the wire, until the middle of

15 the second door.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The promise given to protect

17 you, was it carried out or not?

18 A. Yes. And the guards knew which line we were in and they didn't

19 hurt that line. On one occasion they sent a boxer, a man who was

20 detained with us, to seize money and watches from our hands. When this

21 boxer approached our line, one of the guards said, "Don't touch that line

22 of men."

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. Thank

24 you very much, Witness Y, for having come here. Thank you very much. We

25 wish you a safe journey to your place of residence. I'm going to ask the

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1 usher to escort you out of the courtroom. Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, I think we have some

5 exhibits to deal with, 108, 112, if I see correctly.

6 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour. At this time the Prosecution would

7 ask that Exhibits 3/108, 3/109, 3/110, 3/111, and 3/112 be admitted into

8 evidence.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

11 objection regarding these exhibits.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And you're speaking on behalf of

13 all counsel?

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. So the

16 exhibits are admitted into evidence.

17 Ms. Hollis, the next witness, before the break, just to ask you

18 who will be the next witness.

19 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Your Honour, on the schedule, the next witness would be Edin

21 Ganic. However, the Prosecution has encountered logistical problems

22 getting him here because of different approvals he needed. He will

23 testify next week. And so we will proceed with the schedule for the

24 witness after that. I believe that's Witness V, Witness V, Victor, and

25 then Mr. Ganic will be brought in to testify next week.

1 Along that same line, Your Honour, I would note that Witness R and

2 Witness AA will not be available for this session. They are scheduled for

3 next week. Witness R and Witness AA.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I don't suppose there are any

5 questions regarding this. I will ask the registrar to bring the witness

6 in so that we don't waste any time.

7 Do you have any objections, Mr. Nikolic?

8 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not for the moment.

9 But the Defence team would like to consult during the break. So I don't

10 know whether we might have something to say when we resume. I'm not sure

11 that it would be appropriate to bring the witness in.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. As you know, we have

13 organised things in such a way as to bring the witness in first. But as

14 we know there are sometimes prior questions to be dealt with. As I

15 thought that we would devote the afternoon to discussions, so I thought

16 that we could organise things in this way by bringing the witness in. But

17 as there are questions to be raised -- in any event, the witness was

18 announced a week ago. So if there are any objections, you can make them.

19 You know the witness, you have the list of witnesses for the week, so it's

20 always possible to say in advance and then we can have a Status Conference

21 if there is something to discuss. Therefore, the purpose, as I have said,

22 is to reserve the time as much as possible for the witness during hearing

23 times and for any discussions, that we should have them in the afternoon.

24 Of course, if there are any ad hoc issues, we can deal with them as we go

25 along.

1 So we're going to have a half-hour break now. The witness will

2 come in after the Judges just in case there may be some questions raised

3 by the parties. So we are going to have a half-hour break.

4 --- Recess taken at 11.10 a.m.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- On resuming at 11.45 a.m.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated while we're

8 waiting for Mr. Radic.

9 I have to thank the Defence for telling me that there would be no

10 issues to raise, and so we have the witness in the courtroom already.

11 Mr. Stojanovic, have I misspoken?

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unfortunately we do

13 have an objection to raise, but I really do think it's a justified one.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do we have to take the witness

15 out of the courtroom?

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps that would be desirable,

17 Your Honour.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Oh, no. What is the objection?

19 What is your objection, Mr. Stojanovic?

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, maybe, Your Honour, there

21 is no need to do that.

22 What I have to say is that we received only the day before

23 yesterday a new statement or, rather, a proffer of the Prosecutor. It is

24 a formality, but we have to say that in terms of substance, this is a

25 different statement, a statement which differs in some key elements from

1 what we received earlier on. So we had received that the day before

2 yesterday, and we did not have enough time to verify the allegations made

3 in the note of the Prosecutor, in the proffer of the Prosecutor. As far

4 as I can see, it concerns our client, Mr. Zigic. So I have to draw your

5 attention to the fact that this differs from the previous statement given

6 by the witness.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis.

8 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, there was an additional proffer provided

9 to the Defence, as Defence counsel has indicated. The reason the

10 Prosecution did this is that this information came up while proofing the

11 witness on Monday of this week, and as soon as the information came up, we

12 provided it to the Defence. But we didn't have this information before;

13 that's why it wasn't provided before. So to provide them notice as soon

14 as we had it, we prepared a proffer and provided it to the Defence.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, regrettably we had

17 to raise this objection. It is not only a matter of time limits. We are

18 dealing with a couple of new facts here which need to be verified by our

19 team. That is the problem.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What exactly is it that you're

21 asking, Mr. Stojanovic.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] What we can say with certainty

23 today is that we are not ready for the cross-examination of the witness.

24 As regards the examination-in-chief, we will leave it up to Your Honours.

25 It is our position, Your Honour, that the right of the Defence would

1 severely be prejudiced. It is a very brief text, indeed, but one which

2 contains very serious charges against our client.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, I have a

5 question for you. Bearing in mind the fact that you always have a

6 possibility to call your witnesses, Defence witnesses, during your

7 presentation of evidence, today we are not going to begin the

8 cross-examination. Do you think that you will be ready to proceed with

9 the cross-examination tomorrow, for instance? As I told you, bearing in

10 mind the possibility of your bringing your own witnesses in respect of

11 that.

12 Very often you seem to think that you have to do everything during

13 the cross-examination, but the cross-examination is not the only

14 possibility for you to defend your client. We have a

15 examination-in-chief, after that we have a cross-examination, and after

16 that phase, there will be, of course, ample opportunity for the Defence to

17 present their case, including an examination-in-chief and the

18 cross-examination for the Prosecutor. We cannot fit in everything that

19 you need to fit in in the cross-examination.

20 Bearing that in mind, could you now tell me, will you be in a

21 position to cross-examine the witness tomorrow, at least?

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do agree with you

23 that this is only part of the proceedings and that we cannot have a final

24 decision on everything here. However, your question is rather complex and

25 difficult, and I certainly do not wish to delay the proceedings. However,

1 on the other hand, I am faced with the possibility of doing something

2 harmful to my mission here as Defence counsel.

3 With your indulgence, Your Honour, could I have a moment to

4 consult with my colleagues. I hope that we might be able to find a

5 compromise.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, please do

7 so. Do consult with your colleagues.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, no, please. You are allowed

10 to go and speak to Mr. Zigic.

11 [Defence counsel and accused Zigic confer]

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honour?

13 Having consulted with my client, I think it is useful to have the

14 examination-in-chief conducted today, and I believe that tomorrow we will

15 be able to cross-examine the witness.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. This is

17 a very good solution, indeed. Thank you.

18 As far as I can see, the witness will be examined by

19 Mr. Waidyaratne.

20 However, before we proceed, Witness, you will first read the

21 solemn declaration that the usher will give you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 WITNESS: WITNESS V

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could you show

4 the witness the piece of paper, or perhaps give it to the usher.

5 A piece of paper will be shown to you, Witness. It contains your

6 name and your surname, and you will tell us by simply saying yes or no if

7 the paper contains, indeed, your name.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it does.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

10 Mr. Waidyaratne, you have the floor.

11 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 May I, at the beginning, request that we go into private session

13 as the witness is a protected witness. His pseudonym is "V," "V" for

14 Victor.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For the identification of the

16 witness?

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is it possible for you to tell

19 us what facts will be referred to in the testimony, in general? Maybe you

20 are not prepared to do so. I apologise if that is the case.

21 MR. WAIDYARATNE: In private session or in total?

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In public session, maybe. It's

23 not necessary.

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, I will. He will be talking about

25 his detention in the Keraterm camp and his experience and the certain

1 facts that he witnessed, and also his detention in the camp Trnopolje.

2 That would be his evidence.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. We will

4 now move into private session.

5 For the benefit of the public, let me tell you that it will only

6 be a very brief private session.

7 [Private session]

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23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are already in public

25 session. Yes, you may continue, Mr. Waidyaratne.

1 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. I will draw your attention to the 14th of June, 1992. Do you

3 remember that date?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where were you on that day?

6 A. I was at home.

7 Q. In your village?

8 A. Yes, in the village where I was born.

9 Q. Were you asked to come to the road by any persons on that day?

10 A. I'm sorry. I didn't understand your question.

11 Q. Were you asked to come onto the road and get into a bus on that

12 day?

13 A. Yes. They came for me, and a very young soldier handed me over to

14 Serb soldiers on a meadow. From there we walked 250 metres to a bus, with

15 our hands behind our heads. Then we boarded the bus and we went to

16 Keraterm via Trnopolje.

17 Q. You said that you were taken to Keraterm. Could you explain to

18 the Court as to what this place, Keraterm, is, where it is located?

19 A. Keraterm is located on the Banja Luka-Prijedor road. Before you

20 enter the town of Prijedor, it is on the right-hand side. As to what it

21 was used for, I don't know. I can't tell you that. We used to refer to

22 it as Keraterm.

23 Q. Witness V, you said that you were taken in buses. How many people

24 were in your bus?

25 A. I cannot tell you the exact number, but there must have been 70 of

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1 us in one bus.

2 Q. Did you recognise the people who were in your bus?

3 A. Most of them were locals, but there were also some refugees from

4 Kozarusa, Kozarac, and Kamicani.

5 Q. Did you see these people clearly when they were inside the bus?

6 A. People didn't look around very much.

7 Q. Did you recognise any of these people in the bus?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you know any of them by name?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you know their ethnicity?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was their ethnicity?

14 A. Muslim.

15 Q. How were they dressed? What did they have with them?

16 A. They were all dressed in civilian uniforms, wearing various

17 clothes.

18 Q. Did they have anything with them?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were there any soldiers inside the bus?

21 A. At the front part there was one soldier, and there was also one in

22 the rear part of the bus, Serb soldiers.

23 Q. How were they dressed?

24 A. Camouflage uniforms.

25 Q. Were they armed?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. With what?

3 A. With handguns and semi-automatic rifles.

4 Q. Now, Witness V, you said that the bus that you were in went to a

5 place called Keraterm. When you reached this place, did you see as to

6 what this place looked like?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What did you see? Could you explain to the Court as to what you

9 saw outside?

10 A. The bus stopped in front of number 1 and number 2, as we called

11 it. That is where it stopped. Zoran Zigic came up with a plastic bag and

12 said, "Anyone with foreign currency should put it in the plastic bag.

13 Anyone who doesn't take out the money and I find it on him later will be

14 killed." When he reached halfway in the bus, then he turned back and

15 left, got off.

16 Q. You mentioned a person by the name of Zoran Zigic.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How was he dressed?

19 A. In a camouflage uniform. He had a red cap in his belt, a beret.

20 Q. Can you describe as to what he looked like?

21 A. At first glance, he looked awful. Afterwards I didn't dare look;

22 not just me, but not one of us.

23 Q. Did you see his face, his hair?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you say as to what you saw then?

1 A. I said, I didn't dare look at him for long.

2 Q. Had you seen this person before?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where had you seen him, and when?

5 A. At the railway and bus station in Prijedor. No, sorry, taxi

6 station.

7 Q. Were you able to speak to him at any instance when you saw him at

8 this taxi station?

9 A. We bargained about the price for a drive from Prijedor to Kozarac,

10 because you had to bargain, they didn't all have the same price. And on

11 one occasion he drove me to Kozarac.

12 Q. When did you learn -- did you know his name before you came to

13 Keraterm?

14 A. No.

15 Q. How did you get to know his name?

16 A. I learnt it in Keraterm, both his first and last name, from the

17 other detainees who were there.

18 Q. Now, you said that -- Zoran Zigic, the person who held a plastic

19 bag, did he collect any money at that instance inside the bus?

20 A. I don't know that.

21 Q. Did you put anything into the bag which he held?

22 A. No. He didn't reach me because I was near to the back door.

23 Q. Did you see him get down from the bus?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. After he left, what were you asked to do?

1 A. To go into room number 3.

2 Q. Where was this room number 3 situated?

3 A. Number 1, number 2, the toilet, and then number 3, right next to

4 it.

5 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I, Your Honour, have the assistance of the

6 usher to show an exhibit which has been marked as 3/27, to be given to the

7 witness. It's 3/27 which has already been admitted into evidence.

8 Q. Witness V, can you see the photograph which is placed on the

9 machine?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recognise this building which is in the photograph?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What is it?

14 A. This is room number 3.

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May it be recorded that the witness is showing

16 to a door which is on the front of the building.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, I apologise for

18 interrupting you. The witness said there was room 1, 2, the toilet, and

19 then number 3. Could you ask the witness to identify rooms 1, 2, the

20 toilet and then number 3.

21 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Very well.

22 Q. Witness, you said that there were rooms 1, 2, the toilet, and then

23 room number 3. Could you point out the place that you mentioned or

24 referred to as room number 1?

25 A. Yes. This is number 1.

1 Q. What is the place or the door that you referred to as room number

2 2?

3 A. This is number 2.

4 Q. That is the entrance to room number 2?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you show as to where the toilets were?

7 A. Yes. The toilet was here.

8 Q. That was the entrance to the toilets, is it?

9 A. The entrance to the toilet, yes.

10 Q. Could you now show as to where the entrance to room number 3 is?

11 A. Yes. This is it.

12 Q. The place that you are showing, the door at the entrance, what was

13 it made of?

14 A. I can't explain that.

15 Q. Now you are showing the door -- the entrance to room 3.

16 A. That is the door to room number 3.

17 Q. Thank you. How long did you stay in this place, or the location

18 which you referred to as room number 3?

19 A. Close to a month. More than 20 days.

20 Q. Were there any others in that room?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who were they? Did you know any of these people?

23 A. I knew quite a few of them. They were people from Kozarac.

24 Q. Did you know their names? Do you recall any of them?

25 A. I remember Zijad Krivdic.

1 Q. You mentioned a person by the name of Zijad Krivdic. Did you know

2 him before you saw him in the camp, in room number 3?

3 A. I did. His wife is from Trnopolje.

4 Q. Had you seen him before you saw him in the Keraterm camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Had you spoken to him?

7 A. Not much.

8 Q. Did you know what ethnicity he belonged to?

9 A. A Muslim.

10 Q. While in room number 3, where was Zijad Krivdic?

11 A. At the entrance to room number 3, on the right-hand side, behind

12 my back.

13 Q. What was the distance between you and him while you saw him?

14 A. Maybe a metre. Not more.

15 Q. Do you recall an incident involving Zijad Krivdic?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. Could you explain to the Court as to what took place?

18 A. Zoran Zigic came up. He pointed at him and said, "You come out

19 here." As he got up, he crawled, and as he was getting up, he hadn't

20 quite straightened up, Zoran Zigic hit him on the head and fired a shot

21 and injured his head.

22 Q. Witness, you said that Zoran Zigic came up. Where did he come up

23 to? Where did you see Zoran Zigic?

24 A. At the doorway, because it was possible to see. You could see

25 everything through the doorway.

1 Q. This was in room 3?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, when you saw Zoran Zigic, how far -- what was the distance

4 between you and Zoran Zigic at that time?

5 A. A step, and not a big one, because I was right next to the door.

6 I was sitting there on a palette, right next to the door.

7 Q. Where was Zijad Krivdic at that time?

8 A. Behind my back, roughly a metre away. But there were other people

9 between the two of us.

10 Q. According to what you said, Zoran Zigic called Zijad Krivdic; is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes, to come outside.

13 Q. How did he call him?

14 A. With his finger. He said, "You come over here."

15 Q. Then did you see Zoran Zigic do anything to Zijad Krivdic at that

16 time?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What did you see? What did you see?

19 A. Zijad Krivdic reached the door, and as he was straightening up, he

20 hadn't quite straightened up when this one hit him with his pistol on the

21 head, and a bullet went off and injured him.

22 Q. Where was Zijad Krivdic hit by Zigic, which part of the body?

23 A. His head.

24 Q. Then you said that the pistol fired. Did you see as to what

25 happened to Zijad Krivdic?

1 A. Zijad fell to the ground and started moaning.

2 Q. Did you see Zijad injured?

3 A. I beg your pardon?

4 Q. Did you see the injury on -- any injuries on Zijad?

5 A. Yes, about a centimetre- or a centimetre-and-a-half-deep cut.

6 Q. In which part of the body?

7 A. On his head.

8 Q. What was Zoran Zigic doing after that? What did he do?

9 A. He then made two steps forward into the room, and he stood in

10 front of me, where I was sitting. He pointed his pistol and there was

11 hair on the pistol, and he said, "Take the hair off but be careful because

12 it's very sensitive, you motherfucker." So I removed the hair. Then he

13 said, "Kiss my shoe." I bent down towards his shoe and then he hit me

14 between the eyes and blood started gushing out.

15 Q. Now, you said that Zoran Zigic wanted you to take the hairs from

16 the gun. Did you speak to or say anything to Zoran Zigic at that time?

17 A. Yes. I said, because the hair was stuck to the pistol, so I said,

18 "Could I use something?"

19 Q. What did he say?

20 A. He said, "You can, but be careful again. It's sensitive."

21 Q. Were you able to remove the hairs?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did he say anything to you when he removed the hair?

24 A. "You're a brave boy, a brave guy."

25 Q. Then you said that he asked you to kiss his shoes and hit you. Do

1 you mean, did he kick you or did he hit you?

2 A. With his foot. He had shoes on, so-called half boots, pointed

3 boots.

4 Q. What did he do when you bent down to kiss his shoes?

5 A. He kicked me between the eyes with that shoe.

6 Q. Were you injured? Did you sustain injuries?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. At this instance, how was Zoran Zigic dressed?

9 A. I didn't dare look what he wore on top, but he had camouflage

10 pants.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, what is your

12 objection?

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I'm

14 not quite sure the translation was quite correct regarding the description

15 on the shoe. Does the interpreter know what a shimmy shoe is. It says a

16 half boot here.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, you have the

18 cross-examination to clarify this. Let the Prosecutor put his question.

19 You will have an opportunity to put yours during the cross-examination.

20 If, in your opinion, greater precision is required, you can get it

21 tomorrow.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's just a matter of

23 translation. Nothing else. That is all.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the correction that you

25 wish to make to the interpretation?

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that in the B/C/S

2 language, what the witness said does not quite correspond to what is

3 written in the transcript. He said "shimmy shoes," as far as I could

4 hear, which means a low shoe with a pointed end. But in the transcript,

5 it says, "a half boot."

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Bearing that in mind -- thank

7 you very much, in any event -- Mr. Waidyaratne can get greater precision

8 from the witness.

9 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Very well, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But I insist on my question.

11 The Zigic Defence may clarify this in the cross-examination, otherwise we

12 mix things up. This clarification can be done in your cross-examination,

13 Mr. Stojanovic.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

16 Q. Now, you said that you were kicked between your eyes. Did you

17 attend to your injury? What did you do?

18 A. No, I didn't. I just wiped it.

19 Q. Now, the time that Zoran Zigic was asking you to attend to the

20 gun, did you see Zijad Krivdic?

21 A. No. I saw him after that. When the detainees said that he had

22 left, at that moment I wiped myself, I realised that I was bleeding. I

23 saw that Zijad was being taken into the room, and people started tearing

24 off their shirts and wetting them with water and putting those shirts on

25 Zijad's head.

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1 Q. Witness V, when Zoran Zigic was with you, near you, did you hear

2 Zoran Zigic saying anything to Zijad Krivdic who was on the ground?

3 A. He moaned but he didn't say anything.

4 Q. Did Zoran Zigic say anything to him?

5 A. "If you continue moaning, I'll kill you."

6 Q. Now, other than room 3, were you detained in any other room?

7 A. Yes, in room number 2.

8 Q. How did you get into room number 2?

9 A. I spent there over a month, and then I went to room number 2 where

10 I had a lot of relatives. After a short period of time, the room number 3

11 was completely emptied out and new detainees were put up there.

12 Q. Now, you said new detainees were sent to room number 3. Did you

13 see these new detainees?

14 A. Very little from room number 2.

15 Q. Did you see them arrive in the camp?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How did they come to the camp? What did you see?

18 A. Some of them arrived in a van. Actually, the majority of them

19 would arrive in groups of five or ten, depending on how they would be

20 driven there. They had been badly beaten up, this is what I could see,

21 but we couldn't see all of them because not all of us could approach the

22 door.

23 Q. Did you see these people or recognise any of them? Did you know

24 any of these people?

25 A. No. They were too far away from me.

1 Q. After these new prisoners or people who came and they were put

2 into room 3, did you see a machine-gun being set up in the camp?

3 A. Yes, after three days of their stay in room number 3.

4 Q. Did you know as to the people who were in room number 3 at this

5 time?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who were they?

8 A. Carakovo, Hambarine, Rizvanovici, that area.

9 Q. Did you see them getting into room 3 or being sent into room

10 number 3?

11 A. No, one couldn't see that. I saw them pass by room number 1,

12 number 2, and going in the direction of the room number 3. Actually,

13 going towards that area there.

14 Q. You said that after three days, after these new people came and

15 were put into room number 3, that you saw a machine-gun being placed.

16 Where was this machine-gun being placed? Where was it kept?

17 A. In front of room number 3, maybe 20 or 25 metres away from it,

18 there was a narrow road that went there, leading up to the grass area,

19 where it had been positioned.

20 Q. So the machine-gun was placed on the grass area.

21 A. No. It was placed on a table, on a trestle which had been placed

22 there.

23 Q. What was the distance -- you said it was about 20 to 25 metres

24 away from it. Was it away from room 3?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Was it placed in front of room 3?

2 A. In the direction of room number 3. Maybe 20, 25 metres away from

3 it.

4 Q. The day that you saw this machine-gun being placed in front of

5 room number 3, did you see the person Zoran Zigic?

6 A. Not near the machine-gun, but I saw him in the afternoon of that

7 day.

8 Q. Where?

9 A. In the area around the road. He was walking between rooms 2 and

10 3, moving in the direction of room number 4, because there was a room

11 number 4 there as well.

12 Q. After the machine-guns were -- machine-gun was kept in room number

13 3, did you hear bursts of fire?

14 A. Yes. It happened late in the evening. The bursts of gunfire were

15 very loud. One could hear the echo but also the moans and cries of the

16 people in front of room number 3, and in front of the toilet as well.

17 Q. How long did the fire go on?

18 A. For very long, but intermittently.

19 Q. Were you able to see -- did you look out of the room that night?

20 What did you do?

21 A. No. We could hear the noise and we could see a blinking light.

22 While they were shooting, a flood light would be switched on. As soon as

23 the shooting stopped, the lights would be switched off.

24 Q. Other than the fire, what else did you hear during that time?

25 A. Moans and cries of people.

1 Q. From which direction?

2 A. From the direction of the toilet and room number 3.

3 Q. Were you able to recognise any of these voices?

4 A. No.

5 Q. The next morning, were you able to see out of the room that you

6 were in?

7 A. Yes. There was a corner in the room from where one could watch,

8 and one could see about ten people who had been -- who were

9 dead.

10 Q. Where did you see these dead people?

11 A. From room number 2, going towards the toilet. And room number 3,

12 on the way there, there were some small trees that had recently been

13 planted. So between the road and the toilet and room number 3, there was

14 a small line of trees.

15 Q. Did you see, other than these dead people, any other injured

16 people?

17 A. Not on that occasion.

18 Q. When did you see them?

19 A. Afterwards, as people were being put on a truck.

20 Q. Did you see a vehicle arrive in the camp?

21 A. Yes, a truck of a make unknown to me.

22 Q. When did the truck arrive? At what time of the day?

23 A. Before noon.

24 Q. Was it in the morning?

25 A. Yes. It must have been between 8.00 and 9.00. Before 9.00.

1 Q. Did you see where it was parked?

2 A. Yes. Near room number 2 and room number 1. Between those two

3 rooms that truck was parked.

4 Q. Did you see the front of the truck? Where was it?

5 A. Yes. It was facing the Banja Luka road, the front part of it, and

6 the rear part of the truck was facing the dead people.

7 Q. What did you see when this truck was parked there?

8 A. I saw them carry the dead onto the truck.

9 Q. They were placed on the truck. Were the dead placed on the truck?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you see anybody who was injured at that instance?

12 A. Huse, we called him "the butcher," he was taken out by two Serbs

13 from room number 2, and he was thrown onto the truck together with the

14 rest of the dead.

15 Q. Was anybody else taken out of your room?

16 A. Not on that day.

17 Q. Did you hear any of the injured saying anything at that instance?

18 A. I heard people moan, those who were injured during the same

19 incident involving the dead people from room number 3.

20 Q. Did you see the truck leave?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you able to go out that day, out of your room?

23 A. Yes. We went to the toilet.

24 Q. And did you see anything, what was happening there?

25 A. We saw the damage on the buildings from the bullets, and we also

1 saw blood in the area where the dead had been put.

2 Q. Did you see anybody cleaning that area?

3 A. Yes. Detainees were cleaning the area, but they had no rags or

4 anything to clean it with. There was a narrow path from room number 3

5 leading to the toilet, and they were cleaning the area with their bare

6 hands and with water.

7 Q. Who were cleaning this place?

8 A. The detainees.

9 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May that be an appropriate location to stop at

10 this time?

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne. We are

12 going to work until 2.30, so you are right; we have to split the remaining

13 time in two. We will have a half-an-hour break.

14 But before we leave the courtroom, could I ask the usher to show

15 the witness out of the courtroom for the break first.

16 Witness, please do not move for a second.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Half-hour break.

19 --- Recess taken at 12.47 p.m.

20 [The witness takes the stand]

21 --- On resuming at 1.20 p.m.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. I think that

23 we are now ready to proceed.

24 Mr. Waidyaratne.

25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

1 Q. Witness V, were you transferred to any other place from Keraterm?

2 A. Yes, I was transferred to Trnopolje. There was a camp in

3 Trnopolje which was located in the elementary school and the playground

4 next to it. There was also an infirmary, a cinema hall, and a shop that

5 used to deal in construction material.

6 Q. Do you recall the date that you were transferred to Trnopolje?

7 A. It was on the 5th of August, 1992.

8 Q. How long did you stay in Trnopolje?

9 A. Until the 1st of October, 1992, and then in a Red Cross convoy I

10 went to Karlovac.

11 Q. The time that you spent in Trnopolje, did you see the person Zoran

12 Zigic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When was that?

15 A. On the 5th of August.

16 Q. Where did you see him?

17 A. We were brought there by buses and we were told to get down near

18 the construction material shop. Near the sports hall, there was a fence,

19 and the detainees were being separated there. Those who were already in

20 Trnopolje were in one area and we were told to get off in the area near

21 the road.

22 Q. So when did you come into the Trnopolje area, the camp area?

23 A. On the 5th of August, 1992.

24 Q. Where did you see Zoran Zigic?

25 A. On the 5th of August, 1992. We were sitting or lying down on the

1 grass area and he came by. I recognised him. He came near to Hasan

2 Karabasic and he told him, "It seems you're still alive, pal," and he

3 grabbed him by his neck and started to strangle him.

4 Q. Did Hasan Karabasic say anything to him?

5 A. He started to moan and to shout, "Please, don't do it, pal." Then

6 two Serb soldiers came by and they took Zigic away from there, and Hasan

7 Karabasic remained lying down.

8 Q. (redacted)

9 A. (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 Q. Did you know his ethnicity?

12 A. He was a Muslim.

13 Q. When you saw Zoran Zigic at that time, how was he dressed?

14 A. He was wearing trousers of a camouflage uniform. I don't remember

15 the upper part, because as soon as we saw him, most of us who knew him

16 turned their heads away so we could hardly see him.

17 Q. At that time did you see his face?

18 A. For a brief period of time, and then I turned away. I could only

19 hear Hasan Karabasic's moans.

20 Q. When you saw his face, did you see the colour of his hair?

21 A. It was dark in colour.

22 Q. Could you describe the face, the colour or the complexion?

23 A. He had a dark complexion.

24 Q. You said that you saw the person whom you called Zoran Zigic at

25 the taxi station, and you spoke to him and you bargained with him. At

1 that instance, did you see his face? Did you see the colour of his hair?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you describe it to the Court?

4 A. Yes. He had short hair; his complexion was rather dark. At that

5 time I didn't know his name.

6 Q. How tall was he, and his weight and his build?

7 A. He was rather slim; approximately 180 centimetres tall.

8 Q. What was the age?

9 A. Between 30 and 35 years of age or thereabouts. I cannot tell you

10 precisely.

11 Q. Witness V, when you saw this person Zoran Zigic in Keraterm, did

12 you see his face?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the colour of the hair, could you describe to the Court as to

15 what you saw?

16 A. He had dark hair, and his general appearance was that of a dark

17 man.

18 Q. How tall was he? What was his weight and his build?

19 A. I couldn't tell you his weight. He was about 180 centimetres

20 tall, slim, of medium build and weight.

21 Q. Witness V, though eight years have passed now from the time that

22 you spent in Keraterm in 1992, and the circumstances have changed, are you

23 able to identify this person as Zoran Zigic -- whom you referred to as

24 Zoran Zigic?

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry to interrupt you. I

1 think that the Defence would like to raise an objection.

2 Mr. Krstan Simic.

3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, though this does not

4 concern my client, we are all here to represent justice. Before we

5 explain our objection, I would like to ask that the witness be shown out

6 of the courtroom, because I have justified reasons to ask for that.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You want to do that so that you

8 can raise your objection?

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, because it

10 wouldn't be very good for the witness to hear it.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, what is your

12 opinion of this objection?

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. I think I object to the

14 application made by counsel for the Defence on this basis: I think he

15 first should have waited until I have asked this question. I'm going to

16 ask the witness a certain question. After that, if he thinks -- and still

17 I think the identification could proceed if the witness says that he is

18 able to identify.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said what I said

21 expecting what Mr. Waidyaratne was going to say, because my objection has

22 to do with the process of identification precisely.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But it's a question of

24 identifying Mr. Zigic. What do you have to do with that, Mr. Simic?

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That is why I said it was in

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1 the interests of justice, in view of what happened before this witness

2 took the stand. It could have negative impacts on all of us, and that is

3 why I'm making my objection.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, we are all concerned

6 and obliged to observe the interests of justice, but it is in the

7 interests of justice for the Prosecutor to be able to finish his

8 examination-in-chief, and after that you will have a chance to do your

9 cross-examination. Therefore, the Chamber overrules your objection and

10 asks Mr. Waidyaratne to continue.

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. I will phrase the

13 question again, Your Honour.

14 Q. Though eight years have passed since your detention in the

15 Keraterm camp in 1992, and also the circumstances have changed, would you

16 be able to identify the person Zoran Zigic if you saw him today?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would you please look around the courtroom and indicate whether

19 you can or cannot identify the individual that you described and referred

20 to as Zoran Zigic?

21 A. I don't need to look around much. There he is. He is sitting

22 over there. The dark one. He has a scar on his chin.

23 Q. For the purposes of the record, Witness, could you tell in which

24 row or place this person is that you're pointing at, and also how he is

25 dressed?

1 A. He is dressed in a black suit with a multicoloured tie. He is

2 sitting next to the policeman with the shaved head.

3 Q. The row that he's sitting in, could you tell us, from the wall,

4 which row he is seated in?

5 A. The second row from the wall.

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: For the purposes of the -- may it be recorded

7 that the witness has identified the accused Zoran Zigic.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. But to make it quite

9 clear, Witness, you said that Mr. Zigic was next to a policeman with a

10 shaved head. Look at your left. Taking into account the guard with the

11 shaved head, on what side is the accused as you face him? Have you

12 understood my question?

13 A. No, unfortunately I have not.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let's take another reference.

15 You see the column here in the hall. Is the guard closer or further away

16 from the column?

17 A. Across the way from the column, directly across from the column.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] To put the question differently,

19 the policeman, is he to the right or to the left of the accused? The way

20 you are looking at him, is he to your left or to your right?

21 A. To my right.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine.

23 I'm sorry, Mr. Waidyaratne. You may continue.

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Witness V, from Trnopolje you said you went to Karlovac.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. From Karlovac did you -- in Karlovac did you meet your family?

3 A. Yes, the next day.

4 Q. Who did you meet in Karlovac?

5 A. In the morning I went to the telephone booth. I knew my sister's

6 number by heart. She was in Croatia. I entered the telephone booth to

7 telephone. I lifted the receiver. Somebody tapped me on the shoulder. I

8 turned around. It was my wife. The first word I spoke was, "Where are

9 the children?" The receiver fell out of my hand. I never called my

10 sister in Croatia. Then immediately with her I went to Slovenia.

11 Q. Did you lose any property or have any financial losses due to your

12 confinement and to the forced removal from Bosnia?

13 A. Not financial. But in terms of housing, I had a house, a stable,

14 and more than two hectares of land.

15 Q. Did you suffer any long-term medical or psychological -- did they

16 have any consequences due to your confinement in the camps Keraterm and

17 Trnopolje?

18 A. Yes. I have been undergoing treatment since 1993, psychological

19 treatment.

20 Q. Do you have any other physical setbacks?

21 A. I have many health problems.

22 Q. Before I conclude, may I ask you, what is your ethnicity?

23 A. Muslim.

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further

25 questions.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

2 Mr. Waidyaratne.

3 Now, Witness V, you're going to answer questions that some Defence

4 attorneys will have for you.

5 Mr. Krstan Simic, what is the order, please?

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all Defence teams,

7 with the exception of Mr. Zigic's Defence, have no questions for this

8 witness.

9 However, with your permission, I would like to inform you of the

10 contents of my objection so that Your Honours should be informed of what

11 it was I wanted to say.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As only the Defence of Mr. Zigic

13 is going to cross-examine, and we have decided that that should take place

14 tomorrow, we can have the witness shown out and then I'm going to give you

15 an opportunity to speak.

16 Mr. Usher, will you please escort the witness out.

17 Please don't move, Witness. Just a moment. You may go now.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I think

21 that by omission of Mr. Stojanovic, who didn't fully follow the course of

22 events, an omission occurred so that the Chamber allowed consultation

23 between the Defence and the accused. This occurred in the presence of the

24 witness, and I wanted to say that I am afraid that such identification

25 will not be reliable because the witness could see who the attorney spoke

1 to in front of all of us. I think that Mr. Stojanovic should have reacted

2 in time and asked for the witness to be shown out.

3 That was the purpose of my objection. That is why I said it was

4 of a general nature and that it affected all of us.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but I think this objection

6 should have been made by Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Krstan Simic. Are you

7 defending Mr. Kvocka? Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Tosic are Defence counsel

8 for Mr. Zigic, are they not? Am I right or not?

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I agree, of course,

10 with what you said, but I made it clear that I was reacting in the general

11 interest. And I thank you for your indulgence and for hearing me out.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't know if

13 Mr. Stojanovic -- thank you anyway, Mr. Krstan Simic.

14 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have anything to say?

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 I think I need to present my permission in a written form. But I

17 would like to say very briefly, I think that this recognition is rather in

18 the interests of the Defence than in the interests of the Prosecution.

19 The very fact that a Prosecution witness recognises somebody in the

20 courtroom, in my opinion, means very little. He certainly won't point at

21 you or the Defence or the Prosecution. And by method of elimination, it

22 is easy to guess who is the accused. But he will do a great service to

23 the Defence if he fails, under those conditions, to recognise someone.

24 If he does recognise someone, we feel that the probative value of

25 such identification in the courtroom is extremely small. We will support

1 this with other arguments. Witnesses are coming to testify about

2 something unique that happened to them. They know where they are coming,

3 they know what is expected of them, and they have a great deal of prior

4 knowledge.

5 In principle, I think that such evidence should be produced, but

6 also in principle, I think it can serve the interest of the Defence more

7 than the Prosecution, because it can help to exclude someone, whereas on

8 the other hand it will not serve to prove anyone's guilt. So I think the

9 weight of this kind of evidence is up to Your Honours to judge.

10 Thank you.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor, generally

12 speaking, have you any comment to make?

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, may I have a moment.

14 [Prosecution counsel confer]

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution agrees

16 that the procedure did take place that way, when the witness was present

17 in the courthouse [sic], and that this evidence -- the identification

18 evidence, it is the weight that would be given when you consider the

19 evidence of this witness. Thank you.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We will take all this into

21 consideration.

22 As you know, the system that we are applying here regarding

23 evidence in this Tribunal is not, strictly speaking, a common law or a

24 civil law system. I have already had occasion to address you on this,

25 specifically regarding a question that Mr. O'Sullivan raised. But I think

1 that, as you know, I am not a specialist in the common law system. You

2 know that for the common law system regarding evidence, it is based

3 essentially on the admission of evidence, and this is understandable when

4 one has a jury.

5 As you know, on the other hand, the civil law system is based

6 basically on the probative value of documents and evidence, and that

7 probative value is found in the totality of the evidence, to use purely

8 technical words which you understand well; whereas the common law system

9 is a more atomised system, which means each exhibit has to be seen in

10 isolation from the others. The civil law system is a wholistic system,

11 that is, the totality of the evidence which needs to be taken into

12 consideration.

13 We do not have either of those systems in this Tribunal but we

14 have perhaps a mixture of the two, because the admission has to be

15 considered, but it is also true that the Judges may admit all the

16 documents and subsequently see what is their probative value; that is to

17 say, there's a bit of both systems. But as you know, the Judges

18 themselves, which is impossible in a common law system, the Judges can

19 call witnesses to the stand. As you know, we can do that according to the

20 Tribunal's system. Judges can call witnesses, and we have had such

21 occasions. The jurisprudence of the Tribunal knows that there were cases

22 when witnesses were called to answer questions by Judges; the Prosecution

23 had an occasion to ask questions, so did the Defence. You see, it is the

24 probative value, in the final analysis, of the totality of the evidence

25 that needs to be weighed.

1 I apologise. I never wish to lecture you but simply to share with

2 you these opinions, and after sharing them, one can find one's bearings

3 better in our system. That is the only reason I'm saying this, and I am

4 not lecturing you. Even if I do, I do not expect any payment in return.

5 So just to make things clear, so that we can understand one another and

6 our system of work, that is the only motive that I have.

7 In any event, we heard the observations made. I think you

8 understand why the Chamber overruled the objection at the time. But we

9 will take all this into consideration.

10 We also have to take into consideration that it's ten to two, and

11 to act in line with our own rulings, we will adjourn and meet here

12 tomorrow at 9.30 for the cross-examination by Mr. Zigic's Defence.

13 The hearing is adjourned for today. I wish you a good afternoon

14 and success in your work.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

16 1.54 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

17 the 7^th day of July, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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