Page 9621
1 Wednesday, 28th March 2001 2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be
6 seated.
7 Good morning to the technical booth, the interpreters, the
8 registry staff, the counsel for the Prosecution, counsel for the Defence.
9 We will resume our work, but before bringing in the witness, we have a
10 decision to communicate to the parties, and particularly to the Defence of
11 Mr. Zigic. And I apologise for the delay, but the Chamber had other
12 obligations to deal with.
13 The question that we wish to decide upon is the question of the
14 expert witness, Dr. Barudzija. During a previous meeting, Mr. Stojanovic
15 raised the question of his expert witness proposed, Barudzija. The
16 Chamber heard the parties on the issue on the 19th of February, 2001. The
17 testimony of Dr. Barudzija can be divided into two parts: In the first he
18 would testify as a fact witness, and in the second he would provide his
19 opinion in the capacity of an expert witness. The Prosecutor objected to
20 the testimony of the doctor as an expert because he wouldn't be neutral.
21 However, the Prosecutor does accept that he gives opinions if those do not
22 exceed his expertise.
23 The Chamber notes, in the first place, that there is nothing in
24 the Rules preventing an expert witness from testifying also on certain
25 facts which are a part of his personal knowledge. It finds that the
Page 9622
1 Defence has the right to choose its expert witnesses and that this
2 testimony will be admitted by the Chamber, evaluating its relevance and
3 its probative value in accordance with the provisions of Rule 89(C) of the
4 Rules. However, all statements by the expert witness must conform to the
5 provisions of Article 94 bis of the Rules.
6 The Chamber therefore rules that the Defence of the accused
7 Mr. Zigic can call Dr. Barudzija both as a fact witness and as an expert
8 witness, on condition that, as far as his expert testimony is concerned,
9 the provisions of Rule 94 bis should be observed. That is the ruling of
10 the Chamber.
11 So I think now -- yes, Ms. Susan Somers.
12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour, for the floor. I just want
13 to inform the Chamber that we have not to date been served with any 94 bis
14 statement by expert.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. It's a statement.
16 But Mr. Stojanovic is aware of the time limits of Rule 94. There's no
17 need to discuss that matter now. I want to make sure -- can I have the
18 witness brought in now?
19 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic. Can we call the witness?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Good morning,
21 Your Honours. Thank you for your ruling. We will keep in mind the 21
22 days required. It's just a question of translation. We already have the
23 finding, the report.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And we can call the next
25 witness.
Page 9623
1 Mr. Usher, please have the witness brought in.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 WITNESS: WITNESS DD/1 [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DD/1. Can
6 you hear me? I wish to remind you that you are continuing to testify
7 under oath. You may be seated. Make yourself as comfortable as possible.
8 Mr. Waidyaratne, your witness for the continuation of the
9 cross-examination of this witness.
10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne: [Continued]
12 Q. Witness, I was asking questions from you about your detention
13 yesterday in regard to your detention in the Keraterm camp. When you saw
14 Mr. Zoran Zigic in the camp, was he armed?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You had not seen him carrying any weapons?
17 A. I did not.
18 Q. Did you see or hear Mr. Zoran Zigic ordering any of the detainees
19 to sing Serbian songs?
20 A. It wasn't Zoran Zigic who ordered anyone to sing songs. I sang
21 them myself of my own accord. I didn't sing Serb songs.
22 Q. Please, my question was, did any -- did you hear Mr. Zoran Zigic
23 or see Mr. Zoran Zigic ordering any other detainees to sing Serbian songs?
24 A. No.
25 Q. During your detention in Keraterm, did you see a person by the
Page 9624
1 name of Ramadanovic -- sorry, Jasmin Ramadanovic detained in the camp?
2 A. I don't know him.
3 Q. To make it much clear, you don't know him, you said?
4 A. I don't.
5 Q. Another matter concerning the Room 3 incident in Keraterm, you
6 said that the people who were detained in Room 3 were from the Brdo area;
7 is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, did you know the ethnicity of these people who were detained
10 in Room 3?
11 A. Muslims.
12 Q. Now, Witness, after you left the camp you said that you went to
13 Prijedor; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In the year 1992, the latter part of 1992 and in 1993, did you see
16 or meet Mr. Zoran Zigic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. In 1994 did you meet him or see him?
19 A. I did not, as I said before. I saw him in mid-June.
20 Q. Now, you said that you were detained in the Trnopolje camp; am I
21 correct?
22 A. Yes, I was.
23 Q. How long did you stay in the Trnopolje camp?
24 A. Fifteen days.
25 Q. Could you describe as to what you saw in -- the people who were
Page 9625
1 detained or kept in the Trnopolje camp, please?
2 A. All the Muslims?
3 Q. Yes. All the people who were there were Muslims?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Approximately could you assess as to how many people were detained
6 there?
7 A. Well, really, I don't know. I know that there were a lot of us,
8 but I can't tell you. I don't know.
9 Q. Did you see Zoran Zigic in the Trnopolje camp?
10 A. No.
11 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Please bear with me for a moment, Your Honour.
12 Thank you.
13 Q. Now, in Trnopolje camp, the time that you spent in Trnopolje camp,
14 is it your position that you didn't see Mr. Zoran Zigic, or that you
15 didn't know whether he came or not?
16 A. I did not see him.
17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That concludes the cross-examination, Your
18 Honour. Thank you.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
20 Mr. Waidyaratne.
21 Mr. Deretic, any re-examination? You have the floor.
22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Re-examined by Mr. Deretic:
24 Q. Witness DD/1, after a question from my learned friend from the
25 [redacted]
Page 9626
1 answer was, and I quote --
2 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. President?
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Wald draws my attention to
4 something that you said, the name that you mentioned that you shouldn't
5 have mentioned, so please take care.
6 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. It is a big
7 mistake on my part. I do apologise to both the witness, the Chamber, and
8 all those present. In any case, Mr. President, may I request that we go
9 into private session for a few minutes?
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [In English] Yes. Maybe it's preferable.
11 [Interpretation] Let's go into private session, please.
12 [Private session]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
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24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 9627
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13 Page 9627 redacted private session.
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Page 9628
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9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
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12 [redacted]
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17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may continue, Mr. Deretic.
24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Witness, you said that it was your duty in Keraterm to distribute
Page 9629
1 food and water.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Tell me, please: On those occasions, were you ever led to hit any
4 one of the detainees?
5 A. I didn't hit them, but I was in charge of the food. I distributed
6 the food. Some people would get it five or six times and some of them not
7 once. And I would say to them, the Muslims, as I am a Muslim too, "It's
8 better that I hit you lightly than they. If they beat you, they'll kill
9 you. I'm telling you nicely. Move away. You've got your food. You
10 can't come back to get it five times." I didn't really beat anyone, but
11 that's what I did.
12 Q. But were you in a position to be able to push someone away or to
13 slap someone?
14 A. Yes, I could push someone, but not hit anyone.
15 Q. Was [redacted] with you every day when you were distributing
16 food and water?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did he work in shifts?
19 A. Yes, he did.
20 Q. So would it happen sometimes that he wouldn't be there during the
21 day because it wasn't his shift?
22 A. Yes. He would be there when his shift was on duty.
23 Q. Who would assist you when he was not on duty?
24 A. Other soldiers. There were other soldiers who assisted us.
25 Q. In answer to a question from my learned friend opposite that on
Page 9630
1 one occasion you went with Zigic near the new post office, as you said, in
2 Prijedor, to fetch water, you mentioned the name Faruk.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you go to get water from that man's house?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You said you don't know his surname.
7 A. Yes, I said I don't know his surname, but I do know his name.
8 Q. Do you know what that man did in Prijedor?
9 A. I don't.
10 Q. Did you get some cigarettes from Zoran Zigic free to have a smoke?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Did you see Zoran give cigarettes to other people to smoke?
13 A. Yes, he did. He gave some to my brother, too.
14 Q. What I meant was without them having to pay for it.
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. Were these soldiers and policemen, or were they detainees? Did he
17 give them to detainees as well?
18 A. Well, yes. He gave them to policemen, to soldiers, and to the
19 detainees as well. He gave cigarettes around to everyone.
20 Q. Did you ever happen to see Zoran Zigic give food to anyone in
21 Keraterm?
22 A. Yes, I did. I know that he would take it from the gate.
23 Q. Who did he give the food to?
24 A. Well, I can't remember the name now.
25 Q. Were they soldiers and policemen or detainees?
Page 9631
1 A. No, it was detainees.
2 Q. Did he make them pay for that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. When you sold the cigarettes, did you sell the cigarettes just to
5 the detainees?
6 A. I sold them to the police and to the soldiers as well as to the
7 detainees.
8 Q. Yesterday you had occasion to see a diagram in front of you. You
9 were shown a diagram, and you noted down the positions of the premises
10 there. You then on that occasion, you indicated where two machine-guns
11 were located.
12 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask,
13 Mr. President, that the usher place the same diagram on the ELMO because I
14 have another question concerning that diagram.
15 Q. About the machine-guns, can you take a look at this photograph
16 once again and tell us whether you have correctly indicated the positions
17 where those machine-guns were set up?
18 A. Mr. Deretic, you can't see the weighing-in device. I can't see it
19 here, but I know that one of them was facing the Banja Luka-Prijedor road,
20 and the other one was at the corner by the weighing-in machine. I can't
21 see that weighing-in machine now.
22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may, I should
23 like to present the witness with a coloured photograph, and as this is a
24 photocopy which is on the ELMO, the witness might find it easier to get
25 his bearings here because it's a better photograph and shows more
Page 9632
1 contrast.
2 Q. Can you indicate on this --
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, I apologise for
4 interrupting, but I can see that this photograph has been assigned a
5 number, D8/4, I think.
6 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I wrote that in, Mr. President,
7 yesterday.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but if the witness is going
9 to mark this photograph, we might have to assign it another number.
10 So Madam Registrar, could you give us a number for this particular
11 photograph.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. It will be D8/4A.
13 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
14 Mr. President.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Deretic.
16 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, can you now locate the positions of those machine-guns in
18 more -- more correctly? You have your pointer, so could you do that now,
19 please. Could you indicate Room 3 first, please?
20 A. Yes, I can. Here it is.
21 Q. Can you show us where one of the machine-guns was?
22 A. One of them was in front of number 3, in front of number 3.
23 Q. Was it closer to the room, Room 3, or closer to the fence?
24 A. Closer to the doors.
25 Q. But show us where the fence is.
Page 9633
1 A. This is the fence round here.
2 Q. So you could look at the distance?
3 A. No, it was near.
4 Q. You mean near the fence?
5 A. No, it was opposite, number 3 opposite. The machine-gun was
6 facing directly towards them, towards number 3.
7 Q. Can you show us the weighing-in device on this photograph?
8 A. At the entrance itself to Keraterm.
9 Q. Could you show us the entrance, then?
10 A. Yes, I can. Here it is.
11 Q. Now, where is the weighing device?
12 A. The weighing device is here, located here on the right-hand side.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, I apologise for
14 interrupting you once again, but when the witness says "here" and "there"
15 and uses similar terms, for the record, we do not know what he means, so
16 either the witness will have to specify and make a mark of some kind or
17 use letters, or you yourself will have to describe the exact locality with
18 respect to a point we know; otherwise, in the LiveNote we won't be able to
19 ascertain this.
20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Looking at the rooms from the entrance, can you see anything?
22 Show us the entrance, please.
23 A. Here.
24 Q. On the right-hand side is there something located there, an
25 object?
Page 9634
1 A. Yes. Yes, it's the weighing-in machine.
2 Q. Was there a house or a hut next to that weighing-in machine?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In relation to Room 3, can you say where the machine-gun was
5 located? Now you have indicated the weighing machine to us.
6 A. Yes. Here, right at the corner, because the machine-gun went
7 directly -- was directly facing towards Room 3.
8 Q. If you have a pen, could you indicate that spot for us, please.
9 And would you place a "V" for vaga, or weighing-in device. Could you
10 place a "V" for vaga, meaning weighing-in machine.
11 Please take a look at the photograph and not the screen. Can you
12 now locate the machine-gun?
13 A. Yes, I can.
14 Q. So we're referring to the machine-gun that was pointed at Room 3.
15 Please look at the photograph and indicate where it was. Put "M1,"
16 machine-gun one, "M1" for where it was.
17 And can you tell us where the other machine-gun was? Or let me
18 help you. Where was Room 1 and 2? Where were they?
19 A. Over here.
20 Q. So where was the other machine-gun?
21 A. One was faced towards number 3, and the other was pointing towards
22 the Banja Luka-Prijedor road.
23 Q. Yes. But can you see the Banja Luka-Prijedor road on the
24 photograph?
25 A. Yes, I can. Here it is.
Page 9635
1 Q. Then can you locate the second machine-gun?
2 A. It was here by the fence.
3 Q. Do you remember to the left of the entrance in Keraterm --
4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I object to this.
5 Q. -- was there a --
6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I understand that my friend is trying his best
7 to -- but he is now trying to point out the places. I would expect the
8 witness to mark the place, Your Honour. Thank you.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Deretic, we already
10 have an M1. Now you want to locate the M2, so please ask the witness
11 where M2 was. It was a machine-gun.
12 Also, we need to indicate the entrance to the camp, so on the
13 bottom half of the photograph or the left-hand side by indicating an
14 arrow, perhaps we could -- and also we might indicate the Banja
15 Luka-Prijedor road with "PB" and an arrow; otherwise, when reading the
16 LiveNote, the transcript, we won't be able to have anything on record. So
17 we need that kind of information on paper, please.
18 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Witness, would you once again show us the Prijedor-Banja Luka main
20 road.
21 A. [Indicates]
22 Q. And can you place the letter "B" for Banja Luka, or "BL," where
23 that road is, on the road, please.
24 A. [Indicates]
25 Q. Thank you. Can you now show us where the entrance to Keraterm
Page 9636
1 was.
2 A. I can. It was here.
3 Q. Would you please place a "U" for the entrance, "U," the letter
4 "U," meaning Ulaz entrance.
5 A. [Indicates]
6 Q. Can you now indicate the position of the second machine-gun.
7 A. It was here in front of number 3. You have already shown that.
8 What do you want me to write here?
9 Q. Please write "M-2."
10 A. [Indicates]
11 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, I think that with
13 the cross-examination by Mr. Waidyaratne there was some new information
14 with respect to the numbering of the exhibits, so perhaps we could -- that
15 is to say, the room, the rooms in the compound. So perhaps we could ask
16 the witness to indicate where Rooms 1, 2, and 3 were located.
17 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness DD/1, would you mark Room 1 and the other rooms too,
19 please.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.
21 MR. WAIDYARATNE: As already -- I do not know as to how the
22 witness is going to mark those rooms again, because already we have the
23 number 1, 2, and 3. So he may have a different shade, that if it's going
24 to be different from what he has already done. Thank you, Your Honour.
25 That was to assist Your Honour's Court. Thank you.
Page 9637
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much,
2 Mr. Waidyaratne, but I don't think there's any problem, actually, because
3 he was marking this on a different exhibit number.
4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But I thank you for your
6 assistance.
7 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Would you please mark in where the WC was.
9 A. [Indicates]
10 Q. I see you've got "V." Could you add a "C" to the "WC."
11 A. [Indicates]
12 Q. Thank you. I don't think we need the photograph any more, but we
13 should like to ask, Mr. President --
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Deretic, but I
15 would like to ask the witness something.
16 Witness, you wrote in "1," "2," "3," and "4." What does that
17 mean, "1," "2," "3," and "4"? What do those numbers denote?
18 A. One of the rooms, the second dormitory, the third and fourth
19 dormitory, because there were four rooms where we slept in Keraterm.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You also wrote in the letters
21 "VC". What do the letters "VC" stand for?
22 A. That's where we went to the toilet. It was the WC.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Could you
24 now indicate to us where the pallets were? You mentioned some pallets in
25 your testimony.
Page 9638
1 A. Can I show you with my hand, by pointing?
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Please do.
3 A. They were here. Do you want me to write down anything?
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Write down a "P." The letter
5 "P" that you have written in on the right-hand side of the photograph
6 indicates the site of the pallets, is that right, where the pallets were?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
9 Mr. Deretic, please proceed.
10 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence of
11 Mr. Zigic will subsequently be tendering this exhibit into evidence.
12 Q. Witness DD/1, you said at one point during your testimony
13 yesterday that the people from Room 3 had gone mad. Can you explain what
14 you meant by that?
15 A. Yes, I can. It was very hot, it was very warm weather, but they
16 weren't allowed to go out.
17 Q. You also said yesterday that that evening, that is to say, before
18 the shooting started, you were having stomach problems and that you went
19 to bed earlier than usual.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When was your room locked up that night? When did they lock you
22 up that night? What time?
23 A. About 7.30 -- between 7.30 and 8.00.
24 Q. Do you know who locked you in?
25 A. No.
Page 9639
1 Q. After the shooting started, were you asleep then? Were you still
2 sleeping?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. But did the shooting wake you?
5 A. Yes, it did.
6 Q. When did you see that at the door to Room 3 the tin or metal had
7 been taken off, and when did you see the bodies?
8 A. At 6.00 in the morning, when [redacted]came to fetch me.
9 Q. When the shooting woke you up, did you look through the door?
10 A. No.
11 Q. At one point when you were collecting up the dead individuals, the
12 Prosecutor mentioned a name and a surname. He said "Sead Jakupovic."
13 A. Yes. I know him.
14 Q. You said that he could not collect up the dead bodies, and
15 afterwards the Prosecutor asked you another question. You did not say why
16 he couldn't collect up those dead bodies.
17 A. He couldn't because he felt sick. He started to vomit and he
18 started losing consciousness.
19 Q. Was he there while you were going about that job?
20 A. He went off to the dormitory.
21 Q. While there was shooting in the Keraterm compound, were you awake
22 the whole time, or when did you wake up?
23 A. Yes, I woke up.
24 Q. Did you see anything then, in the morning?
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne.
Page 9640
1 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I object. My learned friend has already asked
2 that question, and the witness had said, "I woke up, but I didn't look
3 through the door." If he's trying to get the answer again, I object to
4 that, Your Honour. If it's in the morning, it's different, but if it's
5 during the night, the time -- the shooting, I object to that. Thank you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.
7 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness said that
8 when he woke up, he didn't look, but my question now is, as the witness
9 said previously that the shooting lasted for several hours, in fact, two
10 to three hours, I am just asking him now whether during the shooting,
11 later on, he saw what was happening in front of him.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Go ahead.
13 A. Yes, I did. In the morning when I woke up, I saw people starting
14 to flee from Room 3. And in front of number 2 you could see bodies, dead
15 bodies, that morning when [redacted]came to fetch me down there.
16 Q. Did you see people running past your room while the shooting was
17 going on?
18 A. No.
19 Q. While your brother was washing the truck, the truck that had
20 returned after taking away the dead bodies, did he have any problems?
21 A. Yes, he did.
22 Q. Would you explain to us what were those problems?
23 A. My brother was washing the truck, and a policeman came and took
24 hold of my brother and began beating him up behind the truck. I turned up
25 at that point and called the policeman, Cicic. I said, "Cicic, this one
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Page 9642
1 wants to kill my brother." And Cicic made the other policeman go away
2 from the compound and asked him who let him in, in the first place. And
3 the policeman left, went back.
4 Q. My last question, yesterday you said that after four or five days
5 after your arrival in Keraterm that you were interrogated.
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. Do you know that some people after these interrogation sessions,
8 that is to say, those who were detained, had been sent home?
9 A. Yes, that's right. That's what happened to start off with. Once
10 they had questioned you up there, they would send you home.
11 Q. So who were these people who were sent home?
12 A. I don't know. I know that my brother was supposed to have -- to
13 go home, too. He was questioned on that day, and he was supposed to go
14 home, but he didn't.
15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have
16 no additional questions.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Deretic.
18 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.
19 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Questioned by the court:
21 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning Witness, Witness DD/1. Can you hear me?
22 A. Yes, I can.
23 JUDGE RIAD: I'd like to have some more information from you if
24 you are in a position to tell me about it. You just mentioned that you
25 were distributing food to the detainees, among other things, and you told
Page 9643
1 them, "It's better that I hit you lightly than they." Why did you have to
2 hit them?
3 A. I didn't actually hit them. I just pushed them aside, because I
4 knew that if I did not do that, they would beat me. So I didn't hit them
5 actually, I just got hold of them and pushed them aside.
6 JUDGE RIAD: They would beat you, the detainees would beat you
7 when you bring them food?
8 A. Well, the detainees did beat me, as well. We struggled, we
9 struggled. We fought.
10 JUDGE RIAD: Was there a kind of animosity between you and the
11 Muslim detainees? You were a detainee yourself.
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE RIAD: So why would they beat you?
14 A. Well, because. Because they singled me out, and they would say,
15 "That's him." Because otherwise, the Muslims would threaten me, and I
16 didn't actually know why because I helped them in Keraterm. I helped them
17 most while they were in Keraterm, because those same people who were in
18 Prijedor, I saved them.
19 JUDGE RIAD: So you don't know the reason for this hostility. Was
20 it perhaps because of the accusation of your brother having killed a
21 Muslim?
22 A. Well, it seems that that would be so, yes.
23 JUDGE RIAD: What was this Muslim which he was accused of killing?
24 Was he a patriot? Was he one of the fighters? What was he?
25 A. He was in Omarska.
Page 9644
1 JUDGE RIAD: He was a detainee, too?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE RIAD: And what was the accusation, if -- although it was
4 wrong, but what was it that -- was it a personal fight, or was it
5 something political?
6 A. Political, because that, that Muslim is alive and his father is in
7 Kozarac, in Prijedor. And his father visited us at home and asked my
8 mother --
9 JUDGE RIAD: I understood that, yes.
10 A. -- he said --
11 JUDGE RIAD: I understood that. But the accusation itself was
12 that he killed another detainee. Was this detainee an important political
13 person for the Muslims, to arouse their hostility?
14 A. I don't know.
15 JUDGE RIAD: You don't know. But the fact is that there was some
16 kind of hostility against you?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE RIAD: It was the people running the camp who asked you to
19 distribute food, or it was out of your -- the kindness of your heart?
20 A. Well, no, that's when the food began. Then they asked me to
21 distribute the food.
22 JUDGE RIAD: They chose you to do that?
23 A. Yes, because I was right by the door. I slept right by the door.
24 JUDGE RIAD: Now, there was also perhaps there the incident of
25 kicking Car, of Mr. Zigic kicking Car. Did the -- was there any follow-up
Page 9645
1 of this kicking? I mean, he just kicked him and left him or kicked him
2 and continued acting in any way?
3 A. No, Zoran Zigic just hit him once. He kicked him in the backside
4 and left, went outside the gate. I don't know where he went; I just saw
5 him leave the Keraterm compound.
6 JUDGE RIAD: So what followed, the running around with the heavy
7 machine and so on, Mr. Zigic had nothing to do with it?
8 A. No.
9 JUDGE RIAD: It was the other one, I think, Duca - Duca or Duca -
10 who did that, was it?
11 A. I can't remember whether it was Duca, I just know it was a group
12 of soldiers. And after Zoran --
13 JUDGE RIAD: So you don't know who did that?
14 A. No, I don't. All I know is --
15 JUDGE RIAD: You were present, weren't you?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Zigic only kicked Car, as you said, in the
18 bottom, or did he kick other people, too?
19 A. No.
20 JUDGE RIAD: It was Zoran in particular?
21 A. Yes. Just once, when Car had been brought with the 53.
22 JUDGE RIAD: And in general, your observation, what was the
23 importance of Mr. Zigic in the camp? Was he obeyed? Was he running the
24 camp or just moving around?
25 A. Well, no, he wasn't commanding the camp, running the camp.
Page 9646
1 JUDGE RIAD: Now, he was not. But what was his role exactly?
2 Could he help people? Could he punish them? Could he kick them?
3 A. He could help, and he did help us a lot, us Muslims. He helped
4 all my brothers. He helped me especially, too. I could have been 10 feet
5 under ground by now.
6 JUDGE RIAD: But apart from you and your brothers, what was his
7 position towards the -- because apparently you were apart from the
8 others. What was your position with the other detainees?
9 A. Good. I just saw Zigic once, and I know I could move around
10 Keraterm. And I would say if I had seen him, but I didn't see him, so I
11 can't say I did if I didn't.
12 JUDGE RIAD: You gave two different descriptions of the revolt of
13 people in Room 3. The first one, "I thought that they were trying to run
14 away and they were shot"; but now you mentioned answering the Defence
15 counsel that they were so hot that they wanted to go out of the room. So
16 what was exactly the case of this? Were they trying to run away from the
17 camp, or were they bursting out because of the heat and then shot out?
18 A. They were inside. They were inside and they started fighting,
19 having a fight, struggling with each other. And I know when that number 3
20 was opened, I know that a Muslim, a young man, also a Muslim, poked him
21 with a large pole. That was in number 3, and that was a Muslim doing it
22 to a Muslim in one of those dormitories, in that dormitory when they
23 started breaking down the lower panel to the door, and that's when they
24 began to run away, run out.
25 JUDGE RIAD: You said it was unbearably hot, and they ran out.
Page 9647
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 JUDGE RIAD: So and they just ran out. So was it meant to escape
3 from the prison and that's why they were shot out, or just run out?
4 A. No, they started to escape towards number 2 and number 1
5 dormitories. I saw that. I saw the bodies, and I saw them trying to
6 escape. Towards number 4 by the palace, that's the direction they were
7 trying to escape. I know when I collected up their dead bodies. I know
8 that.
9 JUDGE RIAD: Escape out of the prison, out of the camp?
10 A. Yes, yes. Escaping from Room 3.
11 JUDGE RIAD: And where were you at that time?
12 A. In number 1.
13 JUDGE RIAD: Number 1.
14 A. And in number 1 I could --
15 JUDGE RIAD: And did you see Mr. Zigic around?
16 A. No.
17 JUDGE RIAD: You didn't. Thank you very much.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, at the end, at the
19 end, Mr. Stojanovic.
20 Thank you, Judge Riad.
21 Madam Judge Wald.
22 JUDGE WALD: Witness DD/1, I've got several questions to try and
23 understand your testimony because it seemed that at one point you might be
24 saying one thing and at another point another, and I want to make sure
25 that I know which one you really are saying.
Page 9648
1 Now, to begin with, on the cigarette business, when you were
2 selling cigarettes for Mr. Zigic, did he tell you what price to sell them
3 for, or did you just sell them for anything anybody might have? Who
4 decided how much you sold the cigarettes for?
5 A. I don't remember what the price was that Zoran Zigic told me to
6 sell them at. I know I sold them to soldiers, the reserve police, and the
7 detainees.
8 JUDGE WALD: I understand. You answered my question: You said
9 that Mr. Zigic told you what price to ask for the cigarettes. Okay.
10 Now, when you were selling food for some of the guards, did you
11 get anything in return for that? Now, Mr. Zigic gave you some cigarettes
12 of your own in response for your selling the cigarettes, but you also told
13 us you sold food for some of the guards. Did you get any money or any
14 food for yourself or any kinds of privileges in return for selling the
15 food for the guards?
16 A. No.
17 JUDGE WALD: You just -- why did you do it? Because they told you
18 to?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, in the day you said -- or I have in my
21 notes that you said two different things. Tell me which you believe is
22 the correct one. At one time you said that the day before the shooting
23 they set up the two machine-guns that day, and another time you said in
24 answer to one of the questions no special machine-guns were set up that
25 day. Could you tell us now which of those two statements is the correct
Page 9649
1 one?
2 The machine-guns in front of room -- or that were in the direction
3 on the sketch of Room 1 and Room 3, were they set up that day? Were they
4 always there? It seemed as though you gave different answers at two
5 different times.
6 A. No. They weren't set up immediately.
7 JUDGE WALD: So when you said, and I have it in my notes, that
8 that day they set up two machine-guns, you were wrong and you take that
9 back?
10 A. I said that the machine-guns were there before we arrived in
11 Keraterm. Maybe you didn't understand what I said. Before we got to
12 Keraterm, the machine-guns had already been in position.
13 JUDGE WALD: We will check the transcript of that, but I have in
14 my notes that you said something quite different. We will check the
15 transcript and see what exactly you did say as to that.
16 During the afternoon before the shooting, I want to make sure I
17 have this correct, you didn't see Mr. Zigic anywhere around the camp. I
18 believe that's what you said. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, when -- again, I had difficulty in
21 understanding precisely what you were saying about what you saw the night
22 and the next morning of the shooting. You said, I believe, that you went
23 in to bed in Room 1, and you were awakened by the shooting. Now, you
24 talked about seeing people fleeing. Are you -- did you see people flee
25 that night? Did you see people flee the next morning? Did you only see
Page 9650
1 the bodies in positions from which you inferred that they were fleeing? I
2 didn't understand your answer as to what exactly you saw and when you saw
3 it.
4 A. I saw the bodies as the men started to flee towards dormitory 2
5 and dormitory 1 because --
6 JUDGE WALD: All right. Let me just stop you there so that again
7 I understand. It may be the difference in our languages and the
8 translation that makes it difficult.
9 Do I understand you now to say you never saw people actually
10 fleeing. You saw bodies in positions from which you inferred that they
11 must have been fleeing and trying to run out of Room 3; is that right? Or
12 if not, tell me what is right.
13 A. I said that these men had started to flee towards
14 Room --
15 JUDGE WALD: Did you see them start to flee or did
16 you --
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE WALD: When did you see them start to flee, see the actual
19 people fleeing? When?
20 A. At night, because I didn't sleep for long.
21 JUDGE WALD: You woke up and then what? You saw them out of the
22 bars of Room 1, you saw them fleeing? Is that what you're telling me now?
23 A. Yes, because I know --
24 JUDGE WALD: Go ahead.
25 A. Because I know, in the morning when I got up, I saw two or three
Page 9651
1 bodies on the spot where they were killed, and I carried them past Room 3.
2 JUDGE WALD: I understand that, but I think just a few minutes ago
3 you were asked the question by your own Defence counsel -- not your own
4 Defence counsel, but Mr. Zigic's: "Did you see people running past the
5 room during the shooting?" and you said no. So I am trying to make sure I
6 understand. You saw those bodies of fleeing people the next morning, but
7 did you ever actually see people fleeing?
8 A. At night, during the night.
9 JUDGE WALD: So you're changing your testimony now to the extent
10 that you're saying yes, you did see them at night during the shooting,
11 while you were in Room 1?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, in this original episode in which
14 Mr. Zigic saved your life, you said that another soldier threatened you,
15 and he took you and escorted you back to your room and made sure that the
16 other soldier didn't hurt you. Now, during that episode, did you ever see
17 Mr. Zigic talk to that other soldier, say anything to him, or was it
18 merely that by being with you that protected you, and he never actually
19 spoke or said anything in your presence to the person who was threatening
20 you?
21 A. Yes, he did say something to him.
22 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Do you know what it was or did you just see
23 him speak to the other person?
24 A. I saw the man taking a knife and wanting to slit my throat. And I
25 ran off to Zigic and I said, "Zigic, this one wants to slaughter me." And
Page 9652
1 then Zigic said to him, "Who told you to hurt him?" Zigic said to me,
2 "Sit down there and have a cigarette. No one may hurt you." I was so
3 afraid, I said to Zigic, "Please take me to my dormitory," and he did. He
4 took me there. And Zigic said to him, to this soldier --
5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. You've straightened that out for
6 me. I just have two more questions. One was: You told us that after one
7 of the funerals of, I believe, a Serbian either soldier or guard - I don't
8 remember which - Karlica, that some people went into -- called out Car
9 from the dormitory and took him out and beat him, not Zigic, but,
10 according to your testimony, someone took him out and beat him. Do you
11 have any idea why they would go after Car for this particular
12 policeman's -- as a result of this policeman's being killed? Was it just
13 generally they were just mad or did they somehow connect Car with the
14 person whose funeral they had just been at?
15 A. They had come back from the funeral drunk, and they called out Car
16 to come out.
17 JUDGE WALD: Why Car? Why Car, to your knowledge? Do you
18 have --
19 A. Because they had caught him with a machine-gun on him and they
20 knew him. Car was involved in the attack on Prijedor from Brdo, because
21 it was from there that the war was being waged, from Brdo. Both Kozarac,
22 Rakovcani, and Carakovo, they were all involved.
23 JUDGE WALD: During the night of the killings and shootings, since
24 you said that you were awakened by the shootings and you could see some
25 things happening from inside Room 1 by looking out, was it -- were you
Page 9653
1 able to see whether it was only machine-gun -- the machine-gun that was
2 positioned in front of Room 3 that was shooting or whether the machine-gun
3 that was in front of Room 1, or near the Banja Luka road? Was that
4 shooting too or was it just the machine-gun shooting in front of Room 3?
5 A. Only the one in front of Room 3.
6 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, you told us that during your time in
7 Keraterm you did not see Mr. Zigic ever abuse anybody, except for the one
8 incident you told us about with Car. Did you ever hear reports from any
9 other of the detainees that they had seen or knew about or been the
10 victims of any abuses by Mr. Zigic? And in general, what did you hear
11 about Mr. Zigic - Did they like him? Did they not like him? Were they
12 afraid of him? Were they not afraid of him? - from other detainees?
13 A. To tell you the truth, I was not afraid of Zoran Zigic.
14 JUDGE WALD: I know that. I'm asking what you heard from other
15 detainees.
16 A. Nothing. I don't remember. It's a long time ago.
17 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge
19 Wald.
20 Witness DD/1, I also have a few questions. I should like to go
21 back to the statement that you made, "Zigic, this one wants to kill me."
22 How did you learn the name "Zigic"?
23 A. I saw him for the first time when he gave me cigarettes. That's
24 when we met, and I heard soldiers call him Zigic, and that is how I
25 started calling him Zigic, when he first gave me a cigarette.
Page 9654
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The incident which prompted you
2 to say, "Zigic, this one wants to kill me," did it happen before or after
3 Mr. Zigic had given you a cigarette?
4 A. No, no. After that.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question, to return to
6 this incident with Car, who was running around in a circle. You said that
7 the soldiers forced him to run in a circle. My question is the
8 following: Was Zigic present?
9 A. He was there just the first time, when Car was brought in. I
10 didn't see him after that, as I was there in the compound, I was
11 distributing food, and we would have visits. Your mother, father,
12 brother, or sister could come and visit you and bring you food in bags.
13 And then for a while food was prohibited, and then Zigic would bring bags
14 of food and distribute them to us.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So if I understand correctly
16 your answer to my question, Zigic was present when he kicked that man,
17 that Car, but you don't know whether he was present when Car was running
18 around in a circle; is that right?
19 A. Yes. He was there only when Car was brought in and when Zoran
20 Zigic kicked him in the behind. After that, I didn't see Zoran Zigic, as
21 I have said.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How much time went by between
23 the moment Car arrived and the incident with the running around in a
24 circle?
25 A. Three or four days. No, no. Car was brought in immediately, and
Page 9655
1 immediately he started running. As soon as he was captured with a 53
2 machine-gun on him, he immediately started running round in a circle.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the two events, the arrival
4 of Car and the running around in a circle, followed one another
5 immediately in time?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And Mr. Zigic was present when
8 he arrived, but you don't know whether he was present when Car was ordered
9 to run in a circle; is that right?
10 A. No. I saw Car starting to run and I saw Zoran Zigic coming into
11 the compound. He just gave him one kick in the behind. But there were a
12 lot of soldiers around. I don't know their names, however.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you're telling me now that
14 Zigic was present when Car started running in a circle?
15 A. He would come in, and Car started running when the police brought
16 Car in in a police van, having captured him with a machine-gun, and they
17 put it on his shoulder and told him to run in a circle, and Zigic hit him
18 just once. I was there, not more than 15 [Realtime transcript read in
19 error "50"] metres away. I saw it all.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Fifteen metres away. Correction, please.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Witness DD/1. I saw
22 that Mr. Stojanovic had something to say.
23 Mr. Stojanovic, would you like to make your observation now.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The
25 witness said "not more than 15 metres," but the transcript says "50
Page 9656
1 metres."
2 However, with all due respect for His Honour Judge Riad, I had an
3 objection, as it contained a conclusion that does not emanate from this
4 testimony, that the witness and his brothers were separately treated. We
5 will hear about his brothers, but from this witness all we heard was that
6 what made them special was that they were saved from certain death on a
7 number of occasions, not only by Zigic, but by others, if this can be
8 considered special treatment. I think it is premature to make such a
9 conclusion. I do apologise to Judge Riad, but I don't think that the
10 question should have been put in that way to the witness.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, these
12 interventions are allowed by us, but not to make allegations but to put a
13 question to the witness. So if there is anything you wish to clarify with
14 the witness, you should do so, but then the Prosecutor has a chance to
15 cross-examine. This is not the point of giving you the floor to say this
16 or that. We are in the process of presentation of evidence. This is not
17 the time for making any submissions. So I'm telling you now and for the
18 future: If you have an observation to make, you must do so in the form of
19 a question put to the witness. That is all that I have to tell you. So
20 what is the question that you would like to put to the witness following
21 the questions put by His Honour Judge Riad?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would rather not
23 tire Your Honours further. I think it would only be repeating things that
24 the witness has already said. So we would stop there.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you see from your own
Page 9657
1 conclusion that your observation was inappropriate.
2 Witness DD/1, we have concluded our questions. All of us - the
3 Prosecution, the Defence, and the Judges - have had a chance to put
4 questions to you. Thank you very much for coming. We wish you a safe
5 journey home, and I will ask the usher to see you out. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic. I think you
9 have some exhibits to tender into evidence.
10 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, indeed. We
11 should like to tender this sketch as Exhibit D8/4A. We should like it to
12 be admitted as an exhibit under that number.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're asking for the admission
14 of D/4 -- 8/4.
15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, both sketches, certainly. The
16 first had already been marked, and this is an additional exhibit now.
17 Thank you.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne?
19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No objections, Your Honour, thank you.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So these exhibits are admitted
21 into evidence.
22 We've come to the point when we are going to have a half-hour
23 break.
24 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.
Page 9658
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
2 Before the next witness is shown in, I think that this is a
3 convenient moment to go into a matter rapidly, that is to say, the model
4 of Keraterm. The information that I have available is that the model
5 itself was never admitted into evidence, and the Keraterm model does not
6 exist in this case. The model that exists is the Omarska camp model, not
7 the Keraterm camp model. So once again, the information I was given is
8 that that particular model, if it does exist, belongs to the Prosecution,
9 to the OTP. They constructed it or designed it or whatever.
10 Now, I don't know how the Prosecutor can convey that exhibit to
11 the Defence; I don't know. But let us -- we must make a distinction
12 because people tend to forget that the Prosecution, the OTP, is one --
13 that the OTP is one thing and that the Trial Chamber is another. So the
14 Trial Chamber does not in fact have anything to do with the model; the
15 model belongs to the office of the Prosecution. So it is up to the
16 parties to resolve that issue, in my opinion.
17 But, at any rate, as I brought this up and as I mentioned the OTP
18 and the Prosecution, I should like to hear their response to see whether I
19 have understood things correctly, so I shall give the floor to Ms. Susan
20 Somers.
21 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. It is my understanding that
22 it was indeed the Office of the Prosecutor which commissioned both the
23 Omarska and Keraterm models. I would like, if the Court will indulge me,
24 to have an opportunity to speak to the lead counsel in the Keraterm case
25 to find out its status. I think it would be inappropriate for me to
Page 9659
1 commit an exhibit that perhaps is currently being used, with their having
2 just started last week. And I will report back to the Chamber and I will
3 indicate to the Chamber any concerns that we may have in this case as to
4 its use at this stage, but I would ask only to have enough time to speak
5 to Mr. Ryneveld. Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] At all events, I think that we
7 have received information, and Ms. Mackintosh, would you give us the
8 proper information, please?
9 MS. MACKINTOSH: The information from the legal officer on the
10 Sikirica trial chamber is that the model is not currently in use.
11 MS. SOMERS: May I then, if possible till this afternoon's
12 session, have an opportunity to speak with him to see what their
13 anticipated use would be if it's not being brought in yet. I think we're
14 running simultaneously with this Chamber timewise, and I shall look for
15 him at the 1.00 break. Thank you.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Susan Somers.
17 And I would like to reassert what I just said. It is up to the
18 parties to hold contacts and to arrive at an agreement, because as you
19 know, I personally and the Chamber does not have the power to command that
20 the model be brought here. As we have heard, it belongs to a different
21 section of the Tribunal. So all I can say is that I hope you will meet
22 and discuss the matter.
23 The Prosecution has presented its case and used photographs, but
24 if we see that the model would be important, we shall look into the
25 feasibility of having it here.
Page 9660
1 Having said that, we can take up our proceedings where we left
2 off, and I should like to ask the usher to introduce the next witness who
3 is, Mr. Deretic? Could you please tell us?
4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of Mr. Zigic calls to
5 the stand the second witness, under the pseudonym DD/2.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] This is a protected witness. We
7 shall have the blinds closed to enable the witness to be ushered into the
8 courtroom. And I say that for the benefit of the public.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DD/2. Can
11 you hear me?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the
14 solemn declaration handed to you by the usher.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS DD/2
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. The usher is
20 going to show you a piece of paper which should have your name on it.
21 Please give us a yes or no answer as to whether it is in fact your name or
22 not.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. Witness DD/2,
25 we're going to refer to you as DD/2 because of the protective measures you
Page 9661
1 have requested. Thank you very much for coming, first of all. We are now
2 going to give the floor to Mr. Deretic, who is going to ask you questions.
3 Mr. Deretic, your witness.
4 MR. SAXON: Your Honour --
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.
6 MR. SAXON: Before we begin - I'm sorry - just for clarification,
7 could the Prosecution see the name written on that piece of paper.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. The Judges have seen it.
9 You can see it. Please wait a few moments, Mr. Deretic.
10 Mr. Saxon, may we proceed?
11 MR. SAXON: Yes. Thank you very much, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Deretic, I think
13 you need to go into private session, do you not, for the witness'
14 particulars?
15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] That's quite right, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] May we now go into private
17 session, then.
18 [Private session]
19 [redacted]
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14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [Open session]
Page 9664
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Deretic.
2 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. After the war began in the area of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina,
4 where were you?
5 A. I was in Prijedor.
6 Q. Do you know when the Serbs took over power in Prijedor?
7 A. On the 30th of April, 1992.
8 Q. When the takeover of power took place in Prijedor, were arms used?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know when the attack on the town of Prijedor took place?
11 A. On the 30th of May, 1992.
12 Q. During the attack on Prijedor, were there any soldiers and
13 policemen killed?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When this attack took place, where were you yourself?
16 A. In Donja Puharska, at home.
17 Q. Did you say Gornja or Donja Puharska?
18 A. I said Donja Puharska.
19 Q. Where is it?
20 A. Where is it?
21 Q. Yes. Where is it? Is it in Prijedor?
22 A. In Prijedor.
23 Q. What is the national composition of that settlement where your
24 house was?
25 A. Mostly Muslim.
Page 9665
1 Q. After the attack on Prijedor, did you have any problems linked to
2 the attack on Prijedor?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What was it all about?
5 A. The army came and collected us all up for the camps, all of us who
6 were over 60.
7 Q. Was that on that same day when Prijedor was attacked?
8 A. Well, yes, it was.
9 Q. Can you tell us at what time of day this happened? When did the
10 army come to fetch you?
11 A. It was around noon, about 12.00.
12 Q. Where were you taken?
13 A. We were taken out onto the streets and transferred to Omarska.
14 Q. How did they take you there?
15 A. By bus.
16 Q. Were any other of your family members with you then?
17 A. My brothers.
18 Q. How long did you stay in Omarska?
19 A. About two hours.
20 Q. What happened afterwards?
21 A. Well, there wasn't enough room, so we were taken back to Keraterm.
22 Q. Was that on that same day when you were taken to Omarska?
23 A. Yes, it was.
24 Q. Witness DD/2, what happened to your house?
25 A. It was destroyed.
Page 9666
1 Q. Who destroyed it?
2 A. Well, who? The army, who else.
3 Q. Which army?
4 A. The Serbian army.
5 Q. When you were taken to Omarska and Keraterm, were you told why you
6 were being taken there?
7 A. All they told us was that we were taken there -- we were being
8 taken there for questioning.
9 Q. Were you told what you would be questioned about?
10 A. To see whether we had taken part in the attack on Prijedor.
11 Q. Do you know the name and surname of Zigic, Zoran?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Before you were brought to Keraterm, did you know him?
14 A. No, I did not.
15 Q. When did you meet Zoran Zigic?
16 A. I met him after my arrival at Keraterm, three or four days after I
17 got there.
18 Q. When you saw him for the first time -- when did you see him for
19 the first time? What was he wearing?
20 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform.
21 Q. Did he have a cap on his head of any kind?
22 A. Yes, he did. He had a red beret.
23 Q. Do you remember whether he had any characteristic things on him,
24 any characteristic traits apart from that?
25 A. Yes. His hand was bandaged.
Page 9667
1 Q. For how long did you see Zoran Zigic in Keraterm?
2 A. Until mid-June.
3 Q. From your arrival in Keraterm up until the middle of June, as you
4 say, how many times did you see Zoran Zigic?
5 A. You mean how many times?
6 Q. Did you see him several times, once, twice, three times, more
7 times?
8 A. No, I didn't see him at all after mid-June.
9 Q. I am asking you in the period between your arrival in Keraterm and
10 until the end of June, in that time period, did you see Zoran Zigic during
11 that period, and if so, how many times?
12 A. No, I didn't see him.
13 Q. When you saw him for the first time in the Keraterm compound, can
14 you remember whether he was with somebody?
15 A. I can't remember.
16 Q. Do you know what he was doing in Keraterm, what Zoran Zigic was
17 doing there?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Did you meet Zoran Zigic in Keraterm?
20 A. With my brother.
21 Q. How did you happen to meet him?
22 A. I met him through my brother. My brother told me about Zoran
23 Zigic.
24 Q. You said that Zoran Zigic at that time had a bandage on his left
25 hand; is that right?
Page 9668
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you notice that Zoran Zigic was wearing gloves without the
3 tips of the fingers?
4 A. No.
5 Q. When you saw him for the first time, do you remember the colour of
6 his hair?
7 A. Black.
8 Q. Did you see him wearing an earring, perhaps, in his ears?
9 A. No.
10 Q. When you saw Zoran in the compound, what was his behaviour like?
11 A. Well, he was behaving nicely.
12 Q. How did he talk to others?
13 A. Nicely.
14 Q. After you were brought to the investigation centre of Keraterm,
15 what room were you in?
16 A. Number 2.
17 Q. Were you questioned, interrogated at Keraterm?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How many times were you interrogated?
20 A. Once.
21 Q. How much after your arrival in Keraterm were you taken for
22 investigation?
23 A. About half an hour.
24 Q. Were you questioned immediately upon your arrival in Keraterm?
25 A. No.
Page 9669
1 Q. How much later were you questioned? How much time passed before
2 you were taken for questioning?
3 A. About four or five days went by.
4 Q. Who questioned you in Keraterm?
5 A. I don't know whether they were inspectors from Prijedor or Banja
6 Luka.
7 Q. Do you remember what the inspectors asked you about?
8 A. They asked us whether we had taken part in the attack on Prijedor
9 and wanted to see if we had any weapons at home.
10 Q. After you were questioned, what room were you taken to?
11 A. Room 1.
12 Q. Which room were your brothers in?
13 A. They were all together with me in Room 2 until they were
14 interrogated. After the interrogation, they were placed in Room 1.
15 Q. Do you remember in Room 2, was there a door?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What kind of door, that is to say, what was the door made of?
18 A. It was a tin, a metal door.
19 Q. Were there any apertures on the door?
20 A. No.
21 Q. In Room 1, was there a door?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What kind of door?
24 A. There were bars, a net.
25 Q. Witness DD/2, did you -- would you see Zoran Zigic in the Keraterm
Page 9670
1 compound?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you see him during the day or during the night or both, during
4 the day and the night?
5 A. Only during the day.
6 Q. Do you know a man or a person called Sead Jusufagic, also called
7 Car?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How did you come to know him and since when?
10 A. I knew him from before the war because he was a neighbour of
11 mine.
12 Q. Do you know where he lived?
13 A. In Raskovci, Prijedor.
14 Q. Is that, too, one of the suburbs of Prijedor?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you describe Car physically? What did he look like?
17 A. He was of medium height, he was fair, and he was skinny.
18 Q. Do you remember, since you said you knew him from before, whether
19 he had his teeth intact?
20 A. No.
21 Q. What kind of a person was Car?
22 A. He had big problems. He had problems with the police. Ever since
23 his youth he was in correctional institutions.
24 Q. Do you know whether he was ever convicted?
25 A. Yes.
Page 9671
1 Q. Do you know whether Car was in Keraterm?
2 A. He was not.
3 Q. Did you see Car in Keraterm?
4 A. I didn't see him until he was brought there.
5 Q. When was Car brought to Keraterm?
6 A. After my arrival there, three or four days after me.
7 Q. When Car was brought to Keraterm, did you see him then?
8 A. I did.
9 Q. Do you remember how Car was brought to Keraterm?
10 A. In a police van, a Black Maria.
11 Q. Was Car carrying anything?
12 A. Yes, he was: a machine-gun.
13 Q. Do you know where Car was captured?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Where was that?
16 A. At Hambarine.
17 Q. After Car was brought to Keraterm, do you know whether he was
18 mistreated?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How?
21 A. As soon as he was taken out of the police van, they started
22 hitting him immediately.
23 Q. Could you describe in some greater detail the event?
24 A. As soon as he was brought in, they started beating him straight
25 away with the machine-gun. The soldiers caught him and put him in a
Page 9672
1 circle to run around, carrying the machine-gun.
2 Q. Can you remember, within the Keraterm compound, where this took
3 place exactly when Car was running around in a circle?
4 A. In between number 1 and number 2.
5 Q. What do you mean when you say "number 1" and "number 2"?
6 A. In the compound.
7 Q. Do you mean the rooms or something else?
8 A. No. No. In the compound.
9 Q. Within that group of soldiers that you saw when Car was brought
10 in, was Zoran Zigic one of them?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know who forced Car to run around in a circle?
13 A. The soldiers.
14 Q. As he was running, was Car carrying anything?
15 A. He was.
16 Q. What was he carrying?
17 A. The machine-gun.
18 Q. While Car was running around in a circle, was he beaten?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How was he beaten?
21 A. They hit him in any way they could as he was running around with
22 the machine-gun.
23 Q. What did they hit him with?
24 A. With truncheons, they kicked him.
25 Q. While Car was running around in a circle, did you see Zoran Zigic
Page 9673
1 hitting Car?
2 A. I saw him hit him only once. He kicked him in the behind as he
3 was running.
4 Q. After this incident, did you see Car being beaten?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who beat him?
7 A. The soldiers hit him. I don't know who they were.
8 Q. Was Zoran Zigic later on among the soldiers who were beating Car?
9 A. I didn't see him again.
10 Q. Among the soldiers who were beating Car, did you know anyone?
11 A. I only knew Banovic, Cupo.
12 Q. Is Cupo a name or a nickname?
13 A. That's how they call him.
14 Q. Do you know why?
15 A. I didn't hear you.
16 Q. Do you know why they called him that? Did he have short hair,
17 long hair?
18 A. He had long hair.
19 Q. Was Car beaten every day?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you remember a particular incident linked to the beating up of
22 Car?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you see Car dead?
25 A. Yes.
Page 9674
1 Q. When?
2 A. When he was dead?
3 Q. Yes. When did you see him dead?
4 A. On the 6th of July.
5 Q. Could you explain that a little? Does that -- are you giving us
6 the exact date when you say "the 6th of the 7th," or do you mean the 6th
7 and the 7th?
8 A. What I mean is that the 6th is the sixth month and the 7 is the
9 date.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.
11 MR. SAXON: My concern is that Mr. Deretic is leading the witness,
12 Your Honour. The witness needs to testify from his own memory.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.
14 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I see in the
15 transcript there's mention of the month of July. He said "the 6th" and
16 "the 7th." He didn't say the month -- he didn't use the word "July." So
17 I just want the witness to clear up the answer by giving us a proper
18 answer to my question as to the date.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, there's always a
20 matter of interpretation. What we see in the transcript is that the
21 witness said the 6th of July. That's what we see.
22 THE INTERPRETER: The witness says not July, but June.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now I have received an
24 explanation from the French booth. So both of you are right. Mr. Saxon
25 is right and Mr. Deretic is right. The point is that we have interpreters
Page 9675
1 between us. Perhaps this should be borne in mind. The interpreters tell
2 me that yes, they heard the witness say 6th, 7, and it's up to Mr. Deretic
3 to clear up the matter with the witness. Mr. Saxon's observation is
4 justified, because he had his English version, and you have the original,
5 the answer of the witness. With a little tolerance, we can achieve our
6 goal. Please proceed, Mr. Deretic.
7 THE INTERPRETER: May the English interpreter explain that the
8 B/C/S often use 6th for the month.
9 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I see on the transcript mention of
10 the month of July, and from the witness' answer, that is not what he
11 said. So that is why I put the question again to the witness.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic. Don't
13 expand. We accept your apologies. But there is no need to apologise,
14 because I don't think you offended anyone. So please continue.
15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. So Witness DD/2, can you tell us: From the moment you saw Car
17 arrive in Keraterm, how much time went by until the moment you saw him
18 dead? So let us try and be even more precise.
19 A. A lot of time went by.
20 Q. Can you give us the date when you saw Car dead?
21 A. It was the sixth month and the seventh date, which means the 7th
22 of June.
23 Q. Thank you. At what time of day did you see his body? Was it in
24 the morning, at noon, or in the evening?
25 A. In the morning.
Page 9676
1 Q. Do you remember what preceded Car's death?
2 A. He was beaten non-stop.
3 Q. After this incident of running around in a circle, did you ever
4 see Zoran Zigic hit Car?
5 A. No. I said that he hit him only once, as soon as he arrived,
6 while he was running.
7 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Emsud Bahonjic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was that person brought to the Keraterm investigation centre?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could you tell us roughly when this person was brought to
12 Keraterm?
13 A. He was brought in on the 8th of June, 1992.
14 Q. Do you know where he was brought from?
15 A. From Kozarac.
16 Q. How was Emsud brought to the camp?
17 A. In a police van, a Black Maria.
18 Q. Do you know how they called Emsud when he arrived at Keraterm?
19 A. No.
20 Q. When Emsud was brought to Keraterm, was he carrying anything on
21 him?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What did he have?
24 A. A rifle.
25 Q. What kind of rifle did he have?
Page 9677
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer? The
2 interpreter did not understand.
3 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. When Emsud was brought to Keraterm, was he beaten?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What was the name of the gun?
7 A. A Singapore gun, a Singapore rifle.
8 Q. Do you know why it was called that?
9 A. How should I know? That's how they called it. They said he was
10 captured with that rifle.
11 Q. When Emsud Bahonjic was brought to Keraterm, was he beaten?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where was Emsud Bahonjic put when he was brought to the Keraterm
14 camp?
15 A. He was put in number 1.
16 Q. Do you know where Emsud Bahonjic was beaten?
17 A. In the dormitory.
18 Q. Is that Room 1?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you see Emsud Bahonjic being beaten?
21 A. I did.
22 Q. Was he beaten in the compound?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know whether this person was ever taken to hospital during
25 his stay there?
Page 9678
1 A. He was not.
2 Q. When you say he was not, do you know whether he was taken to
3 hospital?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Who beat Emsud Bahonjic?
6 A. The soldiers and the reserve policemen.
7 Q. Did you know any of those policemen from the reserve police force?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you know what the reason was that soldiers and policemen beat
10 Emsud?
11 A. Because they caught him up there with a Singapore rifle.
12 Q. Do you know whether he was beaten during the day or at night?
13 A. During the daytime.
14 Q. Do you know what happened to him?
15 A. I do not.
16 Q. Did Emsud Bahonjic die, or was he killed?
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. Do you know that Zigic, Zoran, beat Emsud Bahonjic?
19 A. I never saw him beat him.
20 Q. Witness DD/2, do you know a person called Drago Tokmadzic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Who was Drago Tokmadzic?
23 A. A policeman.
24 Q. Do you know what his ethnicity was?
25 A. A Catholic.
Page 9679
1 Q. Was he brought to this investigation centre?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you tell us roughly when he was brought to Keraterm?
4 A. I think he was brought about the same time as Emsud Bahonjic.
5 Q. Do you remember how he was dressed when he was brought to
6 Keraterm?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How was he dressed?
9 A. He had a police uniform on him.
10 Q. Did he have anything on his head?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What did he have on his head?
13 A. A cap.
14 Q. Was there anything on that cap, an insignia?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What kind of a sign?
17 A. A five-cornered star.
18 Q. Upon his arrival in Keraterm, do you know where Drago Tokmadzic
19 was put up?
20 A. In number 2.
21 Q. Upon arrival in Keraterm, was he beaten?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who beat Drago Tokmadzic?
24 A. The soldiers and the reserve police.
25 Q. Do you know when he was beaten, during the day or during the
Page 9680
1 night?
2 A. Both during the day and during the night.
3 Q. When Drago Tokmadzic was beaten during the night, were you able to
4 see that?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Why?
7 A. I couldn't see it when he was in number 2. All I could hear was
8 the names being called out.
9 Q. Could you explain what you mean?
10 A. His name was called out, Drago Tokmadzic. He was called to come
11 out, and I just heard his moans.
12 Q. Could you recognise by his voice the person calling out Drago
13 Tokmadzic?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you ever see Zoran Zigic beating Drago Tokmadzic?
16 A. Never.
17 Q. If Zoran Zigic had called him out at night, would you be able to
18 recognise his voice?
19 A. I would be able to recognise it.
20 Q. Did he ever call him out?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you know what happened to Drago Tokmadzic?
23 A. He succumbed.
24 Q. When?
25 A. On the 20th of June, June.
Page 9681
1 Q. Witness DD/2, were you in Keraterm when a massacre occurred one
2 night when a large number of people were killed, detainees?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you remember when that was?
5 A. It was between the 24th and the 25th of July.
6 Q. What year?
7 A. 1992.
8 Q. When this event took place, in which room were you detained?
9 A. In number 1.
10 Q. Was that the room with the bars?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Which room? Which room were you in when the massacre occurred?
13 A. In number 1.
14 Q. Was there a tin metal door on that room or iron bars?
15 A. There was a tin door.
16 Q. You explained a moment ago when I asked you about the doors that
17 you were brought to Room 2.
18 A. Ah, I apologise. I thought you were asking me about number 3, the
19 door to number 3, but the door to number 1 had bars on the door.
20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the transcript it
21 says that it was Room 2, but the witness said that he thought I was asking
22 him about Room 3, so may I ask the question again to clarify this point?
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead, please.
24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. When the shooting took place and the massacre, which room were you
Page 9682
1 in?
2 A. Number 1.
3 Q. What kind of door did that room have?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer? Could the
5 witness please repeat the answer?
6 A. I was in Room 1, and the door had a net, a netting.
7 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. From that room, Room 1, could you see the compound in front of
9 you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. At that time, how many rooms were there in which the detainees
12 were detained?
13 A. There was Room 1, 2, 3, and 4.
14 Q. In Room 3, where were the detainees from in that room?
15 A. From Hambarine.
16 Q. Do you remember what kind of day it was before the shooting and
17 massacre took place? Was it a sunny day? Was it a rainy day?
18 A. It was a sunny day.
19 Q. Do you remember whether Keraterm was provided with any -- had any
20 weapons to secure it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What kind of weapons were these?
23 A. Machine-guns.
24 Q. How many machine-guns were put up?
25 A. I think there were two.
Page 9683
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3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 9684
1 Q. Could you locate those machine-guns? That is to say, could you
2 tell us where they were positioned?
3 A. One of them was in front of Room 3.
4 Q. What about the other?
5 A. The other one was to the right-hand side, by the weighing-in
6 device.
7 Q. I apologise. I did not hear your answer. Where was the second
8 machine-gun?
9 A. One of them was between 1, 2, and 3, that is to say, facing number
10 3.
11 Q. And what about the other one?
12 A. The other one was by the fence, facing Room 1.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you remember since when those machine-guns were
14 there?
15 A. No, I don't.
16 Q. Did you see them being positioned on that particular day, placed
17 there on that particular day?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were those machine-guns put up that day before the shooting or
20 were they there from earlier on?
21 A. No. Those machine-guns were put there when the massacre occurred
22 that night, prior to that happening.
23 Q. What were the machine-guns placed on?
24 A. There was a barrier there.
25 Q. What was the barrier made of?
Page 9685
1 A. Sandbags.
2 Q. Do you know whether that night the compound was lighted?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How was the compound lighted?
5 A. You mean when it was lighted? There was a power cut, and it was
6 poorly lighted, because the light only came from the lampposts. You
7 couldn't see properly.
8 Q. Does that mean that in the Keraterm compound there were lampposts
9 with lights?
10 A. Yes, lampposts.
11 Q. Can you remember how many lampposts there were?
12 A. I can remember two, seeing two.
13 Q. Do you know when the shooting started?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When?
16 A. After midnight.
17 Q. Do you remember before the shooting started that the guards
18 cautioned those individuals, that they cautioned the people in any way?
19 Did they caution them in any way?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. SAXON: Objection.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.
23 MR. SAXON: This is leading. This is leading -- these are leading
24 questions, Your Honour, or that last question, at least, was a leading
25 question.
Page 9686
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, could you rephrase
2 that question, ask what the conduct of them was, if you say what you said
3 [as interpreted]. Please proceed, anyway, and rephrase the question.
4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. What was the guards' conduct towards the detainees prior to the
6 actual shooting taking place?
7 A. They behaved well.
8 Q. When you say "well," do you mean that they behaved well to the
9 detainees in Rooms 1, 2, 3, and 4, or do you just mean one of those rooms?
10 A. I mean all the rooms.
11 Q. From the room you were in, could you see what was happening in
12 front of Room 3?
13 A. No.
14 Q. When the shooting -- when did the shooting start?
15 A. At about midnight.
16 Q. Was shooting directed towards your room, the room you were in?
17 A. No.
18 Q. From your room, could you see the machine-gun positioned in front
19 of Room 3?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How far was it, the machine-gun? Can you tell us how far the
22 machine-gun was from Room 3?
23 A. About 10 metres.
24 Q. On that day, that is to say, before it grew dark and before the
25 shooting actually started, did you happen to see Zoran Zigic?
Page 9687
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you see him after it got dark?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you see Zoran Zigic moving around by the machine-gun from
5 which the firing came?
6 A. Never.
7 Q. How long did the shooting last?
8 A. It lasted two to three hours.
9 Q. In the morning, did you leave your room?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What time was it when you left the room?
12 A. About 6.00.
13 Q. Was your room -- before you left the room, was it locked?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who let you out of the room, then?
16 A. [redacted].
17 Q. What was he doing in Keraterm?
18 A. He was a guard. He would lock the door and unlock it.
19 Q. After you left the room, Room 1, what did you see in the compound?
20 A. A large number of dead and wounded.
21 Q. When you left Room 1, did you happen to see in the Keraterm
22 compound a truck of any kind, a Schlepper?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you hear it come in, being brought in?
25 A. No.
Page 9688
1 Q. Do you know who the truck belonged to?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Whose trailer truck was it?
4 A. It belonged to AutoTransport.
5 Q. How do you know?
6 A. It said so on the doors.
7 Q. When you left your room, where was it?
8 A. It was in front of Room 3.
9 Q. How was the truck facing?
10 A. It was facing in reverse.
11 Q. Did you see the driver of the truck?
12 A. No. I just saw a civilian, a civilian driving it. I just saw
13 that a civilian was driving the truck.
14 Q. Where was that person?
15 A. In the truck.
16 Q. On the occasion, did you see Zoran Zigic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know what that truck was to be used for?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What was it to be used for?
21 A. For the dead bodies.
22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may we go into
23 private session for a few moments, please.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private
25 session.
Page 9689
1 [Private session]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 9690
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can take advantage of
12 this interruption. I think it is time to take our lunch break at this
13 point. Is that convenient to you, Mr. Deretic?
14 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely so, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us adjourn for
16 lunch. I'm going to ask the usher to accompany the witness out of the
17 courtroom first, and then we'll take a break.
18 Witness, don't move for the moment while the blinds are being
19 lowered.
20 We adjourn for a 50-minute lunch break.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.50 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
24 Mr. Usher, may we have the witness escorted into the courtroom,
25 please.
Page 9691
1 Witness DD/2, are you sitting comfortably and have you had a nice
2 lunch?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
5 Mr. Deretic, I hope you are feeling comfortable as well. Please
6 proceed.
7 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Witness DD/2, do you know which direction the tow truck was taken
9 away?
10 A. In an unidentified, unspecified direction.
11 Q. During the day, did that tow truck return to Keraterm?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you tell us approximately at what time it returned?
14 A. About 11.00.
15 Q. Was it washed after it had returned?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who washed it?
18 A. I did.
19 Q. Did you have any problems while you were doing that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell us what happened?
22 A. I can. I was washing the truck, and a soldier came by. His name
23 was Rajko. He wanted to kill me.
24 Q. What happened next?
25 A. I called my brother to save me, and he called a policeman. His
Page 9692
1 name was Cicic, and that Cicic came and took Rajko, that is to say, he
2 threw him out of Keraterm.
3 Q. On that particular morning when you left Room 1 up until the time
4 you began washing the truck and during the course of that whole day, did
5 you happen to see Zoran Zigic at all?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Can you explain to us how and why you were washing the truck in
8 the first place?
9 A. Because it was all covered in blood.
10 Q. What did you wash it with?
11 A. With a hose and a brush.
12 Q. After this event at Keraterm, how long were you in Keraterm?
13 A. Until the middle of August.
14 Q. What year?
15 A. 1992.
16 Q. Where did you go after that?
17 A. I went to Trnopolje. Not Keraterm, Trnopolje.
18 Q. So, at the time when this event in Keraterm occurred with respect
19 to the killing of those people up until your departure to Trnopolje, in
20 that time interval, did you see Zoran Zigic in Keraterm at all?
21 A. No, never.
22 Q. How long did you spend in Trnopolje?
23 A. About 15 days.
24 Q. Did you see Zoran Zigic during that period ever in Keraterm?
25 A. No, never.
Page 9693
1 Q. Did you, in fact, ever after June, after the middle of June 1992
2 up until the present day ever see Zoran Zigic?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You spent, according to your testimony, about two and a half
5 months in Keraterm.
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. During that period of time did you ever happen to see Zoran Zigic
8 beat or beat up anybody or kill anybody?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I should like to go back to a detail that you mentioned. When
11 Zoran Zigic came to the Keraterm compound, did he, with respect to other
12 people, in his conduct -- in his conduct, was he different? Did he
13 shout? Was his behaviour different from the behaviour of the other
14 people?
15 A. Well, yes, he would shout around a bit. He would make more noise.
16 Q. Who did he shout at?
17 A. Well, he didn't shout at anybody in particular. He would just be
18 loud and shout at all of us.
19 Q. While he was doing this shouting, was he shouting only at the
20 detainees?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did he behave that way towards the soldiers and policemen as well,
23 or rather, the guards in Keraterm?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 69, line 20
Page 9694
1 of the LiveNote, I asked the following question. I asked whether the
2 witness had seen Zigic in Trnopolje, and in the transcript it says that he
3 did not see him in Keraterm. So may I repeat the question, with your
4 permission?
5 Q. Did you, Witness, during your stay in Trnopolje, ever see Zoran
6 Zigic?
7 A. No, never.
8 Q. Witness DD/2, did you last week have occasion to read an article
9 which appeared in Blic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In that article it says that while Car was running around in the
12 circle, Sead Jusufagic -- that is, several people beat him; amongst
13 others, that one particular person beat him with a truncheon.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, Mr. Saxon would
15 like to say something.
16 MR. SAXON: I apologise. I have nothing I need to say. Thank
17 you.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. Please
19 proceed, Mr. Deretic.
20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am referring to the
21 article I presented here yesterday. I think the Prosecution has received
22 a photocopy of that article, so my question refers to that particular
23 article, and I shall be brief.
24 Q. Did you ever see, while Car was walking around in the circle,
25 Zoran Zigic compel him to sit down on a beer bottle or mineral water
Page 9695
1 bottle, that he made him take down his trousers and had to sit down on
2 this mineral water bottle, and that is what, in fact, Car died of?
3 A. No, never.
4 Q. Did you ever see, after that running around, Zoran Zigic and
5 another man, as it says in the article, Duco, take Car off to another
6 room?
7 A. I don't know that man.
8 Q. Did Zigic take him off with a man to a room?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Also in the article it says that the machine-guns were placed on
11 school benches prior to the massacre. Is that correct?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Is it true that the detainees from Room 3 were not given food or
14 water?
15 A. Yes, they were given food and water.
16 Q. Would you please tell us: After you left Trnopolje -- that is to
17 say, when did you leave Trnopolje? How long did you stay in Trnopolje?
18 A. I stayed about 15 days.
19 Q. What happened after you left Trnopolje?
20 A. I went home.
21 Q. After you left Trnopolje, did you spend your entire time in
22 Prijedor?
23 A. Up until 1994, yes.
24 Q. Where did you go in 1994?
25 A. I went to Travnik.
Page 9696
1 Q. In what entity is Travnik located? Is it the Serb entity or the
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina entity?
3 A. It is Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 Q. Is that entity controlled by the Serbs or Muslims and Croats?
5 A. The Muslims.
6 Q. When you arrived in Travnik, what happened to you?
7 A. When I arrived in Travnik, what happened was that they wanted to
8 mobilise me into the army, me and my brother, and they put us in a
9 barracks. And a soldier came and a policeman with him, and they called me
10 out. They called me to go outside into the corridor, and I went outside
11 because they suspected me. They thought that I had collaborated with the
12 Serbs in 1992, so they threw me in prison, into a cell in Travnik, me and
13 my brother, too. Then they began to beat us. They began beating us, me
14 and my brother.
15 Q. Was that your older or younger brother?
16 A. My older brother.
17 Q. How long did you spend in prison?
18 A. One month.
19 Q. After that, were you imprisoned?
20 A. You mean after Travnik?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. I was transferred to Zenica to the prison there.
23 Q. How long did you spend in prison?
24 A. One year.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
Page 9697
1 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Were you convicted?
3 A. No.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.
5 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Finally at the end, I have three more questions for you. During
7 the entire time that you were in Keraterm, who handed out the food and
8 water to the detainees?
9 A. My brother.
10 Q. As we are in open session, don't mention names, please.
11 Can you tell us when that brother of yours was assigned to hand
12 out detainees food and water?
13 A. During the day.
14 Q. Who told him to do that?
15 A. [redacted]
16 Q. Finally, can you tell us, please, why you came here -- agreed to
17 come here to testify for an individual like Zoran Zigic who is charged
18 with war crimes by this Tribunal?
19 A. Because he saved my brother and because he helped me, too. He
20 would give me two boxes of cigarettes when there was a shortage, and he
21 would give me a bit of the food and some biscuits, and I decided to come
22 forward and testify in favour of Zoran Zigic.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that concludes my
25 examination of the witness for the time being. Thank you.
Page 9698
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
2 Mr. Deretic.
3 Mr. Saxon, your witness.
4 Witness DD/2, you will be answering questions put to you by the
5 Prosecutor Mr. Saxon.
6 MR. SAXON: Just one question before I begin, Your Honour. I have
7 approximately 80 minutes, one hour and 20 minutes, for this
8 cross-examination. Does the Trial Chamber intend to break right at 3.00,
9 just so that I can plan the work that I'm going to do?
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that we ought to end by
11 that time. Of course, there are additional questions, maybe, and the
12 Judges' question time, so bear that in mind, please, and finish at three.
13 MR. SAXON: Well, if we are to finish at three, will I have some
14 time tomorrow morning, then, to finish the cross-examination?
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Of course,
16 Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. May we go into private
18 session for a few minutes please, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us move into private
20 session.
21 [Private session]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 9699
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Page 9699 redacted private session.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 9700
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that we are in open
17 session, so you can continue, Mr. Saxon.
18 MR. SAXON: Thank you.
19 Q. Witness DD/2, have you always told the truth about your
20 experiences in the Keraterm camp?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You're prepared to tell the whole truth about your experiences
23 today?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You briefly described your detention on the 30th of May, 1992, and
Page 9701
1 I'd like to go back to that for a minute or two.
2 Were you detained at home or outside of your home?
3 A. At home.
4 Q. While you and your brothers were being detained that day --
5 actually, let me step backwards for a moment.
6 Do you have any sisters?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. While you and your brothers were being detained that day, what was
9 happening to your parents and to your sister?
10 A. They stayed at home.
11 Q. Were they mistreated in any way?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did anyone enter your home to speak with your parents and your
14 sister?
15 A. No.
16 Q. When you --
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.
18 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness said that
19 on that day he was taken to Keraterm, so how can he know whether anybody
20 came to his house after that?
21 A. While I was there, nobody came. After I left, I don't know what
22 happened.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic. You are right
24 in a certain aspect, but there is hearsay evidence as well. The witness
25 might have learnt from somebody, and that somebody had come after he had
Page 9702
1 left.
2 So please continue, Mr. Saxon.
3 MR. SAXON:
4 Q. Since you -- after you were detained, or since your detention in
5 the Keraterm camp in the years since 1992, have you spoken to your parents
6 and to your sister about the events of the day, the 30th of May, 1992?
7 A. Never.
8 Q. When you and your brothers were detained, was anybody killed from
9 your neighbourhood?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Who was that?
12 A. A neighbour.
13 Q. Do you recall the names, please?
14 A. I can't say that name and surname now, when we are in open
15 session.
16 MR. SAXON: Can we go into private session for a minute, Your
17 Honour?
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Why not? Let's go into
19 private session, yes.
20 [Private session]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 9703
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon. You may
15 continue.
16 MR. SAXON:
17 Q. Approximately how many men were detained with you from your
18 neighbourhood that day?
19 A. How can I know the number? How can I tell you when I don't know
20 myself?
21 Q. I used the term "approximately." Can you give an estimate,
22 please?
23 A. You mean those that went to Keraterm?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. About three busloads.
Page 9704
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 9705
1 Q. How were you treated when you arrived at Keraterm?
2 A. Well.
3 Q. The very moment when you arrived and you got off the buses you
4 were treated well?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was anybody on the buses with you beaten?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did anybody have their valuables taken?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. You've talked about the beating of different persons today already
11 during your direct testimony. You've talked about the beating of the man
12 known as Car, you've talked about the beating of a man named Emsud
13 Bahonjic. Can you recall the names of any of the persons, whether they
14 were guards or soldiers or visitors, who beat the detainees at Keraterm?
15 A. We weren't beaten on the way to Keraterm and when we arrived at
16 Keraterm, but once we were put up there, there were call-outs.
17 Q. Yes. I understand that. Thank you for clarifying that. My
18 question is: Can you recall today the names of any of the people who
19 would call out detainees and beat them?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Does the name Miso mean anything to you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Does the name Zeljko Banovic mean anything to you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Does the name Coric or Coro mean anything to you?
Page 9706
1 A. Oh, that's the one from Hadzija. His name is Coric, yes.
2 Q. Did you see Mr. Coric beat or mistreat anybody at the Keraterm
3 camp?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What did you see Mr. Coric do?
6 A. When it was breakfast time in Keraterm, that was outside, and if
7 someone had a good watch he would take it off, because they said you'd be
8 called out in the evening. He took off gold and watches of many people.
9 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Coric beat anybody?
10 A. I did not.
11 Q. Where was Mr. Coric from; do you know?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know Mr. Coric's first name or a nickname?
14 A. No. No. No.
15 Q. Did other guards at the Keraterm camp take valuables from
16 prisoners, like watches, or is it just Mr. Coric?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you recall the names of some of the other guards who took
19 valuables from the prisoners?
20 A. No, because it was many years ago.
21 Q. Do you recall the date when you were questioned or interrogated at
22 Keraterm?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were you beaten during your interrogation?
25 A. No.
Page 9707
1 Q. Witness DD/2, to your knowledge, who was the warden of the
2 Keraterm camp?
3 A. I can't remember, I'm afraid.
4 Q. You've testified a bit about Zoran Zigic today. Regarding
5 Mr. Zigic in particular, was he employed at the Keraterm camp?
6 A. He was there like a sort of guard.
7 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Zigic behaved nicely in the Keraterm camp
8 and that Mr. Zigic spoke to others nicely in the Keraterm camp. How many
9 times did you actually see Mr. Zigic in the Keraterm camp? Just once or
10 more than once?
11 A. Only once.
12 Q. Was that the day that the man known as Car was brought to
13 Keraterm?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When you saw Mr. Zigic kick Car in the backside, did you hear
16 Mr. Zigic say anything at that time?
17 A. No.
18 Q. There's something else I'd like to clarify from your direct
19 testimony. You were taken to the Keraterm camp on the 30th of May; is
20 that right?
21 MR. SAXON: We haven't heard an answer, Your Honour. I don't know
22 if the witness has answered.
23 A. No, I didn't understand what you wanted me to say.
24 Q. You were taken to the Keraterm camp on the 30th of May, 1992?
25 A. Yes, yes.
Page 9708
1 Q. Now, the man known as Car arrived there at Keraterm three to four
2 days later, say around approximately the 3rd of June?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You said during your direct testimony that Car was beaten
5 non-stop, and that he --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That Car was beaten non-stop until he died on the 7th of June, is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes. Not July, June.
10 Q. Yes, thank you for clarifying that. Would it be fair then to say
11 that Car was beaten over a period of three to four days before he died?
12 A. Well, I don't remember all those details because all that happened
13 so long ago, nine years ago.
14 Q. But you do recall that the beating of Car began three to four days
15 after your arrival; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mr. Zigic was present at that time; is that right?
18 A. Just the first time, and he hit him once in the backside when he
19 was brought there. And I'm talking about Zoran Zigic.
20 Q. During those days of non-stop beating of Mr. Car, how many times
21 were you present while Car was being beaten?
22 A. Once.
23 Q. Did the beating of Car continue when you went into your room, that
24 is, Room 1?
25 A. Yes.
Page 9709
1 Q. Could you hear that beating going on from inside your room?
2 A. I just heard his moans.
3 Q. You mentioned that Car died on the 7th of June. Why does that
4 date stick in your memory?
5 A. He succumbed to his injuries on the 7th of June, 1992, but he
6 wasn't taken away straight away for burial.
7 Q. Is there a particular reason why that date has remained in your
8 mind? Because you said a few minutes ago that it's been a long time and
9 it's hard to remember all the details.
10 A. No.
11 Q. You testified that a man named Emsud Bahonjic was beaten inside of
12 Room 1. Was Emsud Bahonjic beaten in full view of the other prisoners
13 detained within Room 1?
14 A. Only those in Room 1 where I was.
15 Q. About how many prisoners were detained in Room 1?
16 A. About 150 to 200.
17 Q. Now, you testified earlier today that you never saw Zoran Zigic
18 beat Emsud Bahonjic. Last year a witness known as Witness N testified in
19 this courtroom about the beating of Emsud Bahonjic, and the witness known
20 as Witness N describes Mr. Zigic forcing Emsud Bahonjic to sing songs.
21 MR. SAXON: And I'm looking at page 3892 of the trial transcript,
22 the bottom of that page.
23 Q. According to Witness N, Mr. Zigic forced Emsud Bahonjic to sing
24 songs, and while Emsud Bahonjic, Mr. Zigic -- while Emsud Bahonjic was
25 singing, Mr. Zigic beat Emsud Bahonjic. According to Witness N, Mr. Zigic
Page 9710
1 repeatedly kicked Emsud Bahonjic and beat him with his pistol.
2 Can you comment as to why your testimony, since you were also in
3 Room 1, differs so greatly from the testimony of Witness N?
4 A. All I know is that Zigic did not beat Emsud Bahonjic, nor did he
5 force him to sing. There were a lot of soldiers and policemen around
6 there. I don't know who it was who forced him to sing. They did beat him
7 in Room 1, this Bahonjic. I don't know what happened to him later on.
8 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Zigic present while Emsud Bahonjic was being
9 beaten in Room 1?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You talked about a man named Drago Tokmadzic, and you testified
12 that Drago Tokmadzic's ethnicity was Catholic. Does that mean that Drago
13 Tokmadzic was also a Croat?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, you were confined in Room 1, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Drago Tokmadzic was confined in Room 2; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You testified that when Drago Tokmadzic was called out at night
20 and beaten, you could hear his moans, but if I understand you, you
21 couldn't actually see the beating of Drago Tokmadzic that was going on.
22 Is that right?
23 A. No, I couldn't see it, but I did hear him being called out, and I
24 heard his moans, his voice, because he was alone outside. I don't
25 remember who beat him; soldiers and policemen, but I don't know their
Page 9711
1 names.
2 Q. So you couldn't see who was beating Drago Tokmadzic, could you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Could you tell by the sounds whether Drago Tokmadzic was being
5 beaten by one person or by a group of persons?
6 A. No, I can't remember whether there was one or two or five of them.
7 Q. Could you see in the dark who was calling out Drago Tokmadzic?
8 Was it -- well, my first question is, could you see who was calling out
9 Drago Tokmadzic?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Could you see whether just one person was calling out
12 Mr. Tokmadzic, or whether there was a group of persons waiting for
13 Mr. Tokmadzic?
14 A. There was one person calling out, and I think a group of men were
15 waiting for him, in my opinion.
16 Q. I have a couple of questions to ask you about the shooting that
17 occurred of the prisoners in Room 3 at Keraterm, and I need to clarify
18 something with you. During your direct testimony you were asked when the
19 machine-guns were set up at Keraterm, and I believe that you said that the
20 machine-guns were put there when the massacre occurred, that is, prior --
21 your words were "prior to that happening."
22 Are you saying that the machine-gun was placed outside of Room 3
23 during the day before the shooting began?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, if the shooting began sometime after midnight, can you recall
Page 9712
1 approximately how long before the shooting began or around what time of
2 day was that machine-gun set up outside of Room 3, noontime, 3.00 in the
3 afternoon, 6.00 in the afternoon? Can you give even an estimate?
4 A. About noon when it was put opposite number 3.
5 Q. You mentioned that there were only two lampposts with lights in
6 the Keraterm compound. Were any extra lights set up before the shooting
7 began?
8 A. I don't remember.
9 Q. You said that prior to the shooting that day, that the guards
10 behaved well with respect to the detainees, that they treated the
11 detainees well.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If the guards were trying to treat the detainees well, why do you
14 suppose they set up a machine-gun and pointed it at Room 3 that day?
15 A. In Room 3, it was very hot, and people couldn't stand it any more
16 so they started fighting amongst themselves. They started breaking down
17 the door to escape, and the guards pushed them back. They tried --
18 started running everywhere and then they opened fire, because there was a
19 metal door there. This was in the evening, after midnight.
20 Q. So just so I understand you, Witness DD/2, is it your testimony
21 today that the guards just happened to set up a machine-gun at noontime on
22 the 24th of July pointing at Room 3, and later that night around midnight,
23 the prisoners, just by coincidence, began to escape? Is that your
24 testimony today?
25 A. Yes.
Page 9713
1 Q. Very well. In 1994, Witness DD/2, did you give a statement to the
2 authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina about your experiences in the
3 Keraterm camp?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Would you agree that your memory about the events of 1992 was
6 fresher in 1994 than it is today?
7 A. Well, no.
8 Q. Very well.
9 MR. SAXON: Could we go into private session for a few minutes,
10 Your Honour?
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we're going into private
12 session for a few minutes.
13 [Private session]
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23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.03 p.m., to
24 be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of
25 March, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.