041201ED

Page 1246

1 MR. TOPOLSKI:

2 Q. On the 29th of November, when you came to The Hague, you told

3 somebody from the Office of the Prosecutor that Qerqizi wore a black

4 uniform; is that correct?

5 A. Regularly, yes, a black uniform.

6 Q. You told investigators from the ICTY, from this court, that other

7 men also wore black uniforms; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. Military police of the KLA, whoever they was -- they were

9 from them, they had black uniforms.

10 Q. You told investigators from this court that some men wore black

11 uniforms and had the letters PU on their arms and on their caps; is that

12 correct?

13 A. You mean at that time or earlier than that?

14 Q. Well, that's a very good question. My question to you, sir, is

15 this: Is it correct that you told investigators that when you were in the

16 camp in Lapusnik, men wore black uniforms with PU on their arms and on

17 their caps? Do you understand my question?

18 A. I don't understand. If I would understand, I would have told you.

19 Q. Very well. I'll try again. It's not your fault if you don't

20 understand me, it's my fault. All right?

21 I am looking here at the statement that you made, and you made it

22 in October of 2002. Do you understand? That's what I'm looking down at

23 now, all right? I think you need to answer if you understand me.

24 A. I don't remember ever saying that. I am repeating. It's been a

25 long time.

Page 1247

1 Q. Of course it has, but I'm going to read to you very slowly from

2 page U0031203 one sentence written by you. "They," and the they you are

3 referring to are two men called Shala and Murrizi, "wore black uniforms

4 and had PU for "policia ushtarake," military police, "on their arms and

5 caps."

6 I have just read that line from your witness statement. Do you

7 understand me?

8 A. I can hear you very well. I have seen PU, but I don't think I've

9 said about Qerqizi, that he had PU, only that his clothes were black.

10 Q. Did you, in the camp, see men wearing black uniforms with PU on

11 their arms or on their caps? Yes or no?

12 A. I can't remember if I've seen there in there, the letters PU, in

13 the stable.

14 Q. If you have said that you did see this in a statement that you

15 made, it's probably true, didn't it?

16 A. Well, in the stable, I can't remember if I saw them, whether they

17 had PU or not.

18 Q. I didn't say stable, I said statement. If it's in your statement,

19 it's true, isn't it? You wouldn't lie in a statement, would you?

20 A. I have tried to tell the truth and not to lie, and I've tried to

21 say only the truth. And I'm not lying now, but I can't remember.

22 Q. There were many soldiers and guards at this place, were there?

23 A. There were soldiers around, but Shala was the guard all the time

24 for us.

25 Q. You will leave this witness box much quicker, I expect, if you

Page 1248

1 just answer my questions and not volunteer information. Do you understand

2 me? Do you understand me?

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. Would you agree with the estimate that there may have been as many

5 as 50 soldiers or guards at this camp from time to time?

6 A. I can't remember. There have been many soldiers.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Well, I can speak the truth. If you give me the floor, I can say

9 the truth.

10 Q. The men who were acting as soldiers were of different sizes,

11 different heights, and different ages, weren't they?

12 A. There were soldiers, because I could hear them speaking outside,

13 but I was inside. I did not count them, how many there were.

14 Q. Of course you didn't count them. My question was: Because there

15 were a number of them, they all were different heights and sizes and ages,

16 weren't they? It's obvious. Do you agree?

17 A. I said it once, and I will say it again. There were many

18 soldiers. There was a headquarters there, but inside there we were

19 chained. And Shala came there. We saw him, and Qerqizi came to beat us.

20 Q. One of the soldiers there was called Murrizi, wasn't he?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You saw on the television that Murrizi had been killed, didn't

23 you?

24 A. Yes. That's what I saw. And the photograph, it looked familiar.

25 Q. You recognised him as soon as you saw his photograph on the

Page 1249

1 television, didn't you?

2 A. I thought -- yes. I saw him on the television.

3 Q. Murrizi's real name was Besim Beli, wasn't it?

4 A. I can't remember for the moment.

5 Q. Murrizi was a man who let you see his face at the place, didn't

6 he?

7 A. Murrizi did not wear a mask.

8 Q. On the last day, this man Murrizi told you that you were going to

9 be free, didn't he?

10 A. Yes. He came and opened the door and said, "Don't try to leave.

11 Don't try to escape. We will tell you where to go." He unchained us.

12 From the chains.

13 Q. And when he did that, as usual, he did not have a mask on covering

14 his face, did he?

15 A. Yes. He was without a mask.

16 Q. And while we're on the subject of masks, I want to show you a

17 photograph.

18 MR. TOPOLSKI: This is a photograph, Your Honours, from

19 Prosecution Exhibit 18. Copies have been circulated, I hope. We can have

20 it on the ELMO.

21 Q. I want you to look at this photograph, please, U0032776.

22 MR. CAYLEY: I'm sorry. Excuse me, Mr. Topolski. Your Honour,

23 would it be possible for the witness to actually have it in front of him

24 because of his eyesight and then it can go on the ELMO.

25 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes.

Page 1250

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1251

1 MR. CAYLEY: In fact, what I can -- to assist my learned friend,

2 we can put it on Sanction so everybody will see.

3 MR. TOPOLSKI: Very well. Let's have it on Sanction. I used the

4 wrong terminology, I'm sorry.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see the photos, but I don't know

6 this person.

7 MR. TOPOLSKI:

8 Q. There's no one in that photograph you know --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 MR. TOPOLSKI:

11 Q. There's no one in that photograph that you know; correct?

12 A. No.

13 Q. I just want you to look at the three people who are standing up

14 and look at their masks, and I want you to tell us, please, about the mask

15 that Qerqizi used to wear. Was it like any of those masks?

16 A. No. The masks were all black in the -- so in the photo, they were

17 all in black. They are all in black.

18 Q. Was the mask that Qerqizi wore a black mask?

19 A. Yes. That's how we came in black -- he came in black.

20 Q. Look at the three people standing in the photograph. Did the mask

21 that Qerqizi wore look the same as any of those?

22 A. As I told you, in the photo they are all in black. I cannot tell.

23 I cannot tell anything from the photo. I just see three soldiers here in

24 hats, in masks.

25 Q. There are in fact five soldiers in this photograph wearing masks.

Page 1252

1 Three of them are standing; two of them are seated. Can you see that?

2 Look at the photograph on the table in front of you, not at the screen, if

3 it's easier.

4 A. I seen the photo that the masks are black and they were all

5 wearing black masks.

6 Q. Are they the masks like the ones Qerqizi wore?

7 A. I don't know whether theirs were like Qerqizi's, but the clothes

8 were black and they were wearing black masks.

9 Q. Do you see that two of the women sitting on the right of the

10 photograph seem to have the letters PU on their arms? Do you see that in

11 the photograph in front of you?

12 A. Yes, I can see that.

13 Q. I want to ask you, please, is it your evidence that you saw

14 uniforms like that in the place in Lapusnik when you were being held

15 there? Yes or no?

16 A. I can't remember for the moment.

17 Q. Let's go back for a moment to talk about Murrizi, the man who

18 released you on the last day. You can forget the photograph now. You can

19 put it away.

20 MR. TOPOLSKI: Perhaps it could be taken from him so it doesn't

21 distract. Thank you.

22 Q. I'm back now, sir, asking you about Murrizi. All right? Do you

23 understand me?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Good. Were you watching television at all last year, February

Page 1253

1 2003, when these defendants first came before this court? Did you see

2 that on television last year?

3 A. I saw on TV everything that -- what was occurring after the war.

4 Q. My question was about this court, this place, The Hague, and

5 Fatmir Limaj and others coming before the court, which would have been on

6 television.

7 A. Well, I didn't have time to -- it watch them on TV all the time in

8 the trial. Sometimes I'd watch, sometimes not, but I remember myself

9 watching this particular thing on TV.

10 Q. Did you know that they were saying that Murrizi was here last

11 February in The Hague in 2003? Did you know they were saying that?

12 A. I do not remember this. I do not remember anything about Murrizi

13 being here.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.

15 MR. TOPOLSKI:

16 Q. He could not have been here, the real Murrizi, in 2003 because he

17 was dead. That's right, isn't?

18 A. As far as I know he is dead, but that's how it seemed to me from

19 that photo.

20 Q. Did you recognise the man they were calling Murrizi here when you

21 watch the television about the case last year?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you tell anyone they'd got the wrong man?

24 A. No. I don't remember myself saying that to anyone, but I saw that

25 this wasn't the real Murrizi.

Page 1254

1 Q. You saw this was not the real Murrizi, but you did nothing about

2 it. Is that your evidence?

3 A. When I saw him on TV, I said to myself, "This -- this is not

4 Murrizi." I remember -- I remember this. He wasn't Murrizi. He wasn't

5 his body build or anything.

6 Q. No. The real Murrizi was dead?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.

8 MR. TOPOLSKI:

9 Q. The real Murrizi was dead. Why did you stay silent when you saw

10 that they had the wrong Murrizi?

11 A. I saw that that was mistake, and this I can say here again. It

12 wasn't the real Murrizi, that one that I saw.

13 Q. Is it your purpose, sir, to tell us the truth?

14 A. Well, I swore in here, and I'm here to tell the truth, but if I

15 can't remember, I can't remember. Things that I know, I'm stating here.

16 Q. Does it matter to you that an innocent man may be convicted? Does

17 that matter to you?

18 A. I think I'm telling the truth here. Of course I'd regret very

19 much if somebody who was not guilty was sentenced here. I can tell you

20 only what I saw. I am telling you what I myself have experienced and

21 nothing -- nothing but that. I -- I can forget things, though.

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1255

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Cayley.

6 MR. CAYLEY: Could we go into private session?

7 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes. I'm sorry. That's the point.

8 JUDGE PARKER: There will be a redaction. We will go to private

9 session.

10 MR. TOPOLSKI: I'm not going to mention any other names.

11 JUDGE PARKER: We can remain in --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please. Your Honour, microphone.

13 MR. TOPOLSKI: My apologies. I forgot to apply to go into private

14 session when I put the name. My fault.

15 JUDGE PARKER: We will redact that name, and we can now go back to

16 open session. Thank you.

17 MR. TOPOLSKI:

18 Q. Qerqizi, you have said before, was a very wicked man. That's

19 right, isn't it?

20 A. Well, he was always very aggressive, from the very first time when

21 I saw him in Lapusnik.

22 Q. He was this, this Qerqizi, a very violent man, wasn't he?

23 A. Qerqizi beat us every time. He was aggressive. He did

24 everything, almost everything to us.

25 Q. A man you will never forget.

Page 1256

1 A. No, I can't forget that man.

2 Q. On the 16th of January, 2002, you sat down with a gentleman called

3 Kereakes from Chicago, and he was an investigator. Do you remember?

4 A. Well, now I can't tell. I don't remember simply.

5 Q. You had a friend with you who was helping you with translation.

6 That friend was speaking German. Do you remember now what I'm talking

7 about?

8 A. Yes, if you are talking about the first time. In the beginning, I

9 mean.

10 Q. Yes, I am.

11 A. Yes. I remember this, but I do not remember the name.

12 Q. Now, this was the 16th of January, 2002, and was the first time

13 that you sat down with investigators. That's correct, isn't it?

14 A. Yes, the first time, but I can't remember the year.

15 Q. This was January 2002, some four and a half years after you had

16 left the place at Lapusnik; correct?

17 A. As I said, that's true, but I can't tell you about the year. I do

18 not remember that.

19 Q. I'm going to use, I hope, very simple words about this interview,

20 and I hope that you are going to be able to answer me either yes or no to

21 each of these questions. Do you understand me?

22 A. Yes, I understand you.

23 Q. In that interview with Mr. Kereakes, you gave him a lot of

24 information, didn't you?

25 A. Well, I talked to him the first time. There was an interpreter

Page 1257

1 there. I know what you're talking about. I was interpreting.

2 Q. You spoke about places to him, didn't you?

3 A. Yes. About Lapusnik, yes.

4 Q. You spoke about things that happened, didn't you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You even remembered part of the registration number of certain

7 vehicles that were involved, didn't you?

8 A. I understand, yes. No, I don't remember this.

9 Q. Well, I can tell you you did. At page 03231249 at the end of the

10 first paragraph you refer to a vehicle with a Serbian registration number

11 on two occasions. So I'm telling you you did remember registration

12 numbers. Do you agree with me?

13 A. No. As far as I know, this didn't happen. I do not remember

14 myself saying anything about the Serbian registration plates, and I don't

15 remember talking about this fact at all.

16 Q. Well, I can tell you that you did, sir.

17 MR. CAYLEY: Can I just interject at this stage? I think to be

18 fair to --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that. I didn't

20 say this. I don't remember myself mentioning this thing about the

21 registration plates or the number of the registration plates.

22 MR. CAYLEY: Without alerting the witness, Mr. President, to what

23 Mr. Topolski is talking about, I think if the section is actually read out

24 to him in closed session, it might actually refresh his memory, because

25 it's talking about vehicles that he knows, but just reading it out like

Page 1259

1 with Mr. Kereakes, and I'm not going to mention any of them, you have

2 mentioned no fewer than the names of 16 different people. I know it's

3 hard for you to remember, but will you take my word for it? I've counted

4 them, 16 different names. Do you accept that or do you not accept that?

5 A. Well, I don't remember mentioning 16 different names. If you're

6 talking about people who were there with me or with whom we were released

7 or how many were -- were staying after we were released, then it's a

8 different question, but I do not remember this fact.

9 Q. I'm not going to mention any names. You gave the names of people

10 who took you and people you were with where you were taken. Do you accept

11 that or do you not accept that? And if you like, I can show you the

12 statement.

13 A. Only -- only the -- if we're talking about the first time when the

14 registration plates were mentioned. But I do not know the numbers on the

15 registration plate. I don't know about the names.

16 Q. You were here with this investigator because you had decided to

17 tell your story. That's right, isn't it?

18 A. No. I don't understand you.

19 Q. You had decided to be brave and to speak, hadn't you? That's why

20 you were there.

21 A. No. I didn't decide to be brave.

22 Q. You wanted the authorities to know --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.

24 MR. TOPOLSKI:

25 Q. You wanted the authorities to know what had happened to you and to

Page 1260

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1261

1 others. That's why you were there speaking to the investigator, wasn't

2 it?

3 A. I can tell only the truth. It's not that I decided to become

4 brave or anything or invent things that didn't happen. What I have

5 experienced I've already stated here, what I went through and what I know

6 only. I'm telling you only my sufferings here. In one of my arms, I have

7 the chain marks still.

8 Q. Why, why did you not tell the investigator the name Qerqizi in

9 this first meeting? The most violent man, the worst man, the terrible

10 man, why didn't you mention his name?

11 A. I do not remember anybody asking me those questions, the questions

12 you are asking now.

13 Q. You were next to meet investigators nearly two months later, on

14 the 13th of March, 2002. We have before us a record of a meeting that you

15 had, and you took them to a place. Do you remember this?

16 A. If you're talking about the mountains, yes.

17 Q. Yes. Page 0323-1269 for anybody's reference.

18 It seems during that day you spent with investigators again you do

19 not mention the terrible man Qerqiz. Why is that?

20 A. I do not remember anybody asking me about Qerqiz or about these

21 things, otherwise -- I don't remember anybody asking me that.

22 Q. The first time that you mention the name Qerqiz is at your third

23 meeting with investigators, a week later, March the 20th, 2002.

24 A. No, I don't remember that.

25 Q. Well, again, I hope you'll take it from me. I'm looking at a

Page 1269

1 Q. I want to ask you about another name that you mentioned yesterday,

2 Tamuli. Do you remember speaking about Tamuli yesterday?

3 A. Yes, I remember that a little.

4 Q. Tamuli is a famous name in Kosovo now, isn't it?

5 A. I never heard of it.

6 Q. Tamuli was a martyr. His death is remembered every year in

7 Kosovo, isn't it?

8 A. I know he's a hero, but I don't go there. I never go there.

9 Q. You see, in 1998, the man Tamuli was not known as Tamuli. He had

10 another name. Did you know that?

11 A. I know him just as Tamuli. I do not know of him having some other

12 name.

13 Q. In 1998, because he is dark skinned and for no other reason, he

14 was known as Mujahedini. That was his nickname. Have you heard that

15 before?

16 A. You mean they would call Tamuli Mujahedin?

17 Q. Yes. If you saw him in Lapusnik in 1998, he would not have been

18 known as Tamuli. He wasn't called that until much later. So I'm asking

19 you, are you sure he was Tamuli in 1998, or is that something else

20 someone's told you?

21 A. I do not know from whom I heard this, but people would call him

22 Tamuli. I'm in the aware of any other name for him.

23 Q. We know that the last day you could have been in this place in

24 Lapusnik was the 26th of July, 1998. You told us that Qerqiz came to you

25 every night except the last week. Is that the truth?

Page 1270

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1271

1 A. Qerqiz would come there sometimes at night, sometime during the

2 day, and there wouldn't pass a night without him beating us. This is the

3 truth.

4 Q. Transcript, my page 38, line 25, yesterday you told Mr. Cayley,

5 the gentleman sitting over there to your right, that he came every night

6 except the last week. Now, what I want to ask you is, is that true?

7 A. As I said, every night he would come and would be beat us.

8 Whenever he wasn't busy fighting, he would come there during the day or

9 during the night and he would beat us, except for the last week.

10 Q. And by "week," do you mean seven days?

11 A. Not -- not a full week. I would say last days maybe. Three days

12 maybe, not more than that. So every day or night. He wouldn't come

13 during the day. He would come at night. And he would curse our mothers.

14 He would kick us. He would punch us. Our -- our lower extremities were

15 in blood. I still have the marks, actually.

16 Q. I don't doubt, sir, that these things may have happened to you.

17 The question is who did them. You see, the man I represent wasn't in

18 Lapusnik for the seven days up to the 26th of July. He was fighting

19 elsewhere. So he couldn't have come to see you to beat you. Do you

20 understand me?

21 A. I understand. In question here are three days. So when the --

22 Q. Right.

23 A. When the Serb offensive started and when they were moving towards

24 Lapusnik.

25 Q. So we need to understand that when you say the last week, in fact

Page 1272

1 what you mean is the last three days; is that right?

2 A. Before I was released. Before I was released to go from the barn.

3 Q. After the war, did you hear Qerqiz, Isak Musliu, giving an

4 interview on the radio about the battles he fought? Did you hear that?

5 A. No, I did not see.

6 Q. Did you know that Isak Musliu --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.

8 MR. TOPOLSKI:

9 Q. Did you know that Isak Musliu was in the military police in the

10 Nerodimje zone after the war? Did you know that?

11 A. I don't remember that.

12 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, that's all I ask this witness. I

13 apparently gave the wrong transcript reference, if it matters. On the

14 corrected version perhaps it's 28 and not 38. I apologise. I was looking

15 at the uncorrected transcript.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

17 MR. TOPOLSKI: For the reference to the last week.

18 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at quarter past 4.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.56 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.36 p.m.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Cayley.

22 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Cayley:

24 Q. Witness, can you hear me? Witness, good afternoon. Do you hear

25 me?

Page 1275

1 witness. He is going to be led in his evidence by my colleague Mr. Black.

2 You will be pleased to hear that this witness will be in public session.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

4 MR. CAYLEY: If Your Honours could excuse me for two or three

5 minutes, I will be back here to sit in with Mr. Black, but I have to

6 attend to something upstairs. Thank you.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Cayley.

8 The next witness, please.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir. It's Mr. Bakrac, is it?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Obviously you can hear me in a language you

13 understand.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Would you take the affirmation card

16 that is offered to you now and read aloud the affirmation.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. If you would sit down.

20 WITNESS: VOJKO BAKRAC

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Black.

23 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. May it please the Tribunal.

24 Examined by Mr. Black:

25 Q. Mr. Bakrac, can you understand me as well?

Page 1276

1 A. Yes, I can hear you.

2 Q. Are you comfortable where you are?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I'll ask you if at any time you don't understand something that I

5 ask you, one of my questions, please tell me, and I'll try to rephrase it

6 or put it another way. Do you understand that?

7 A. Yes, I do understand that.

8 Q. Now, I would just like to mention, except when we go into what

9 we'll call private session, I'll ask you not to mention the country in

10 which you currently reside. Do you understand that?

11 A. Yes, I understand that.

12 Q. Mr. Bakrac, before I ask you questions about your background and

13 the events that happened in 1998, I'd like to briefly go over the

14 statements that you have given before you came here today.

15 First, do you recall that you were interviewed by an investigator

16 of the ICTY in January of 2003?

17 A. Yes, I do recall that.

18 Q. Did you make a signed statement at that time?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. And have you been given a chance to review that statement and make

21 any necessary corrections?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Between the time that you made that statement and when you came

24 here to The Hague to testify, did you meet with any representatives of the

25 ICTY before you arrived in The Hague?

Page 1277

1 A. No.

2 Q. But since you arrived in The Hague, you and I have met on a couple

3 of occasions to discuss your testimony; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Thank you. Before meeting with the ICTY investigator in 2003, had

6 you ever given a statement to any organisation about your experiences in

7 1998?

8 A. Yes. Immediately after the events concerned, to the International

9 Organisation for Humanitarian Law.

10 MR. BLACK: With the assistance of the usher, I would like to show

11 the witness a document with the ERN U0031082 to U0031092.

12 Q. Sir, I'd just like you to look at that document for a moment. Do

13 you recognise that document?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is that the statement to the international organisation that you

16 just mentioned?

17 A. Yes. That is this first statement I gave.

18 Q. And when did you give that statement, what date?

19 A. On the 2nd of August, 1998.

20 Q. Thank you. And where did the interview take place, in which

21 country?

22 A. In Serbia, in Belgrade, in a small place called Grocka near

23 Belgrade. That is my wife's birthplace.

24 Q. Sir, you mentioned that you gave this statement shortly after the

25 events concerned. Were the events fresh in your mind at the time you made

Page 1278

1 that statement?

2 A. Yes. Yes, quite fresh.

3 Q. And have you had a chance to review this statement and to make any

4 corrections?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Have you had a chance to read over this statement?

7 A. Not until I came here.

8 Q. And when you came here, did you read it?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Sir, is this an accurate account of what happened to you in 1998?

11 A. Yes, it is an accurate account.

12 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I would ask that this be marked as the

13 next Prosecution Exhibit, please.

14 JUDGE PARKER: On what basis, Mr. Black?

15 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, the Defence have suggested that this case

16 is fabricated, that the witnesses made up their evidence after, sometime

17 after the events. We would say that this is a practically contemporaneous

18 statement. It was made on the 2nd of August, 1998, and it's probative

19 evidence that at least he didn't subsequently fabricate his story because,

20 in fact, he told it to this organisation on the 2nd of August, 1998. On

21 that basis I would seek its admission.

22 JUDGE PARKER: To answer, without turning to my right, is no. It

23 may be marked at the moment for identification. It has been identified.

24 Should there be suggestion of recent invention or some such, it may become

25 of significance.

Page 1279

1 MR. BLACK: Very well, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 Q. Mr. Bakrac --

3 JUDGE PARKER: Just a moment while the record keeps up.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P77 ID, marked

5 for identification.

6 MR. BLACK: Thank you.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Not an exhibit, marked for identification only.

8 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Bakrac, other than the two statements that we just discussed,

10 have you given any other statements about your experience in 1998?

11 A. No, I did not.

12 Q. Were you ever interviewed by the Serbian authorities about your

13 experience?

14 A. The day after I was released, at the State Security Centre in

15 Pristina.

16 Q. Have you spoken with any of the other victims since you were

17 released?

18 A. No, I haven't.

19 Q. What about your son? Have you discussed the substance of your

20 testimony with him?

21 A. No. We did not discuss the substance of my testimony.

22 Q. And, sir, last question on this topic. Have you watched any part

23 of this trial either at home on television or here since you've been in

24 The Hague?

25 A. No. I just glanced at newspaper articles, things like that.

Page 1280

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1281

1 Q. Mr. Bakrac, I'll now ask you a few questions about your

2 background. Where were you born?

3 A. In Brezice, Slovenia.

4 Q. On what date?

5 A. The 11th of November, 1950.

6 Q. Sir, what is your ethnicity?

7 A. I don't understand your question.

8 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, if I can say, as far as the preliminary

9 matters are concerned and the background up to 1998, I have no objections

10 at all if my friend seeks to lead.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Khan. Is that --

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I join.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a view that's shared by all? Thank you.

14 That may speed things up, Mr. Black.

15 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Bakrac, do you consider yourself a Yugoslav?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And do you practice the Orthodox religion?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Sir, where did you live up until 1991?

21 A. In Zagreb, Croatia.

22 Q. Were you educated in Croatia as well?

23 A. Yes, I was.

24 Q. What education did you receive?

25 A. The catering school in Zagreb, and I am a caterer.

Page 1287

1 Q. Do you remember if there were any Serbs on the bus besides

2 yourself and your family?

3 A. Yes. There were a few of them. I don't remember the exact

4 number. I know that there were two girls and maybe two or three young

5 men. I couldn't tell you the exact number. The bus was nearly full.

6 Q. And were the rest of the people on the bus Albanian?

7 A. Yes, they were Albanian.

8 Q. Do you know if the bus driver himself was Albanian or if he was

9 Serb?

10 A. He was Albanian.

11 Q. Sir, do you remember if there were any delays near the beginning

12 of your trip after leaving Djakovica?

13 A. Yes. En route to Prizren, halfway there, the bus stopped because

14 of a -- something broke down, and we waited there.

15 MR. BLACK: With the assistance of the usher, I would like to use

16 the ELMO. I'd like to put map 4 from Prosecution Exhibit P1 on the ELMO,

17 please.

18 Q. Mr. Bakrac, you may be able to see it on the screen, but also to

19 your left you have a map. It may be easier to see to your left. I'll

20 leave it up to you.

21 First, could you point out to the Trial Chamber where Djakovica

22 is.

23 A. [Indicates].

24 Q. And is that where you were living with your family at the time?

25 A. Yes. That's where I lived.

Page 1288

1 Q. Do you remember what route the bus was supposed to take on that

2 day, the 29th of June, 1998, to Pristina?

3 A. It was supposed to go via Prizren and Suva Reka and then on to

4 Pristina.

5 Q. Could you indicate that route as approximately as you can to the

6 Trial Chamber using the map to your left.

7 A. [Indicates].

8 Q. Thank you. Had you travelled to Pristina by bus on other

9 occasions before that day?

10 A. Yes. Perhaps a month and a half before that day, because my wife

11 was in hospital in Pristina, and I went there either by my company car or

12 by bus, but I didn't take this particular route.

13 Q. Which route did you take, if you remember?

14 A. We took a different route. That was the route that was always

15 used if you wanted to go to Pristina and then on to Belgrade.

16 Q. Could you show that to the Trial Chamber on the map to your left,

17 please, with the pointer that you have.

18 A. I will try. [Indicates].

19 Q. Thank you. I think that's clear to us.

20 A. I don't know whether I got it right, but this is the general

21 route.

22 Q. Do you know why that route was not taken on the 29th of June,

23 1998?

24 A. Yes. It was said that that route was blocked.

25 Q. Do you remember who said that?

Page 1289

1 A. That's what they said at the station, that that route was not

2 safe, that it should not be taken, that a different route via Brezice

3 should be taken if you wanted to go to Pristina.

4 Q. I think I'd like to show you one more map, and it's map 5 from

5 Prosecution Exhibit P1. And if we could have that placed on the ELMO.

6 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, what time should I be aiming for in terms

7 of a break?

8 JUDGE PARKER: Because of the delay, there will have to be two

9 shorter sessions. Quarter to or ten to 6.00 would be the first.

10 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Bakrac, I don't know if it will be easier on this map or the

12 prior one, but are you able to indicate more or less this route through

13 Brezice that you just mentioned, on the map?

14 A. I will try, but I'm not really familiar with those roads and

15 routes, but they said that this route was via Brezice. I myself had never

16 taken that particular road. [Indicates].

17 Q. Thank you. Did the bus driver take this route through Brezice

18 that you've just indicated to us?

19 A. Partly. Up until Suva Reka, if I'm not mistaken.

20 Q. And where did he go after Suva Reka, if you could show us on the

21 map, please.

22 A. [Indicates].

23 MR. BLACK: And for the record, could it just show that he's

24 continuing northwards up to Dule on that road.

25 I think we're finished with the map. Thank you.

Page 1290

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1291

1 Q. Sir, did anyone ask the bus driver why he was taking this route

2 through Dule instead of the route through Brezice?

3 A. Yes. The ticket collector did and another man.

4 Q. And did you hear the response to that question?

5 A. Yes. He said that he had asked the police and that the police had

6 assured him that there was no shooting there. He had asked the police at

7 the checkpoint as we were going out of Suva Reka. He asked them whether

8 there was any shooting in Dule.

9 Q. Was the bus driver speaking in Serbian when he said this?

10 A. Yes. He said that in Serbian.

11 Q. Sir, at any point during your trip did you see soldiers along the

12 road? After Suva Reka, I should clarify.

13 A. Yes. Just before the bus was stopped.

14 Q. And were these KLA soldiers that you saw?

15 A. Yes. The driver said, "Well, you see, this is the KLA."

16 Q. Did you also see them with your own eyes? I'm just not clear.

17 A. Yes. They were sitting on a meadow above the road. And the

18 Albanian people started waving at them.

19 Q. Is this the first time that you personally had ever seen the KLA

20 or KLA soldiers?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Bakrac, I'd like you just to describe what happened next after

23 you saw those soldiers along the side of the road.

24 A. Perhaps a kilometre or two, I'm not really sure, further down the

25 road the bus was stopped by three persons. One of the persons held the

Page 1292

1 stop sign, something like that, and indicated with the stop sign to the

2 bus that it should stop. This person was wearing a camouflage uniform

3 with a cap with the KLA insignia on it. There were two other men there

4 standing at the side.

5 Q. Did the bus in fact stop?

6 A. Yes, it did.

7 Q. What happened next?

8 A. This plan with the stop sign entered the bus and asked to see our

9 identification in Serbian. Our personal identification. Since my wife,

10 my son, and myself, we sat right in the front, he first took my documents,

11 checked them, and told me to get out. Then he checked Ivan's papers -

12 that's my son - checked his documents and told him to get out too.

13 We got out. My wife started crying and screaming. At one point

14 she tried to seize my son, grab him, but one of the men standing out there

15 pushed her roughly and threatened her, said to her in a threatening manner

16 to calm down. There was an uproar. Two other people got off the bus at

17 that point.

18 Q. Could I interrupt you for just a moment, please.

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour. Apparently my client is

20 having some difficulty understanding the translators. They may be

21 speaking a bit rapidly. If they could slow down a bit.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. If you could try and assist there,

23 Mr. Black.

24 MR. BLACK: Certainly, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Bakrac, as you know, everything we're saying is being

Page 1293

1 translated into other languages, so if we can try to go slowly and speak

2 as clearly as possible, it would be appreciated. Thank you.

3 I believe you were just telling us whether or not anyone was asked

4 off the bus besides you and your son. Did anyone else have to leave the

5 bus?

6 A. Yes. Two other young men got off the bus.

7 Q. What were their names?

8 A. I learned their names later. I did not know them at the time, but

9 I can tell their names now because I do know them.

10 Q. Please do tell their names.

11 A. That was Zeljko Cuk and Stamen Genov.

12 Q. Please describe the one named Stamen Genov, how he looked then.

13 A. He was a young man some 20 years of age, well-built. He was not

14 as tall as I am, but he was really well-built young man, healthy, in his

15 prime.

16 Cuk was thin, taller than Genov. He was a real refugee, so to

17 speak.

18 Q. Sir, just to have a clear record, how tall are you in centimetres?

19 A. 175 centimetres.

20 Q. Thank you. I'd like to show a couple of photos on the Sanction.

21 They'll come up on your screen, Mr. Bakrac. These are from Prosecution

22 Exhibit P54. That exhibit is under seal, but these pick photos are

23 public.

24 The first photo I'd like to show bears the ERN U0032164.

25 Mr. Bakrac, do you recognise the person in the photo on your screen?

Page 1294

1 A. Yes. That is Cuk.

2 Q. Did he look any different at the time that you saw him than he

3 does in this photograph?

4 A. Perhaps his hair was a bit longer, but his hair was sparse.

5 Q. I'd like to show you another photograph. For the record, it bears

6 the ERN U0032165. Mr. Bakrac, do you recognise this person?

7 A. Yes, I recognise him as Stamen Genov, but he's very young in this

8 photograph. But you can see his facial features are already apparent in

9 this young man.

10 MR. BLACK: Thank you. I think we're done with this Sanction

11 screen for the moment.

12 Q. Mr. Bakrac, what happened when the four of you were taken off of

13 the bus?

14 A. When they took us off the bus, they took us across the road to a

15 space between a shop and another building. They lined us up there. The

16 man that had checked our documents said that Cuk, Genov, and Ivan should

17 go first, in fact, that Genov and Ivan should go first and Cuk and I

18 should remain there. And I begged them to let me stay with my son. He

19 agreed and took Cuk and Genov in a car, a blue car. He took them away. I

20 didn't know where he had taken them.

21 Ivan and myself remained there. The third man who was an older

22 man --

23 Q. I apologise for the interruption. I just want to ask you a couple

24 of questions about what you just told us. Do you know what kind of car it

25 was that Cuk and Genov were taken away in, the blue car that you say?

Page 1295

1 A. I know that it was a blue car. I don't know if it was a Kadet or

2 a Golf model. It's possible either way. At that time, I thought it was a

3 Golf.

4 Q. You also mentioned the soldier who had checked your documents. Do

5 you remember anything about the other soldiers that had stopped the bus?

6 A. Yes. One of them was a younger man with unkempt hair. He had

7 some kind of a mark or a scar on his face. I think it was rather some

8 kind of a mark, a deep pigmentation. The third man was tall, an older

9 man, 50, 60 years of age.

10 Q. Were these men armed?

11 A. Yes, they were armed. The older man carried a rifle. It was a

12 semi-automatic rifle. And the younger man had an automatic rifle.

13 Q. At the time you were taken off the bus, I'd like to ask you a

14 couple of questions about your status and that of the other three people

15 taken off of the bus. Sir, were you armed at this time?

16 A. No, we were not.

17 Q. I'm focusing just on you. What were you wearing?

18 A. I was wearing blue trousers, just a pair of normal shoes, and a

19 yellow checked shirt with blue stripes, blue design on it.

20 Q. Sir, were you part of any military or police force at that time?

21 A. No, never.

22 Q. What about your son Ivan? Was he armed at this time?

23 A. No, not at that time, never.

24 Q. What was he wearing when you were taken off the bus?

25 A. Jeans and the kind of shirt that young people wear. I don't know

Page 1296

1 if there was any kind of a -- any kind of lettering on it. I don't

2 remember.

3 Q. How old was your son at this time?

4 A. He had just turned 19 in August, the 16th of August. In fact, at

5 that time he was not 19 yet.

6 Q. Was your son part of any military or police force?

7 A. No, never.

8 Q. Was he paid by any military or police force to do anything?

9 A. No, not at any time.

10 Q. The person you name as Cuk, was he armed when you were taken off

11 of the bus?

12 A. I don't think so. No, he didn't have any weapons.

13 Q. Do you remember what he was wearing?

14 A. No, I can't remember that.

15 Q. Do you know if he was part of any military or police force?

16 A. I don't know. I wouldn't say so. He was a refugee from -- I

17 don't recall the place.

18 Q. What about Stamen Genov? Do you recall what he was wearing?

19 A. No, I don't remember, but everybody was in civilian clothes.

20 Q. Was he armed?

21 A. I learned later that he did have a gun on the bus, a pistol.

22 Q. At any time during these events when you were being taken off the

23 bus did he draw his weapon?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you know what he did with the weapon?

Page 1297

1 A. I learnt that after we were released, that he had left his satchel

2 on the bus and that there was a firearm in that bag or satchel.

3 Q. Do you know if Stamen Genov was a member of the police or the

4 armed forces?

5 A. He was a member of the military.

6 Q. Did you learn what his rank in the military was?

7 A. Yes. He was a sergeant in the medical corps.

8 Q. Sir, you yourself served in the JNA. What does one have to do to

9 become a sergeant?

10 A. You have to graduate from the secondary school, military secondary

11 school.

12 Q. Do you know if Stamen Genov was married?

13 A. I don't know if he was married at the time or perhaps he was

14 supposed to get married soon.

15 Q. How do you know this?

16 A. I learnt that after we were released, because a friend of mine,

17 his wife's sister was his fiancee. I did know her, but I didn't know him.

18 Q. Thank you. Turning back to what you were describing to us

19 earlier, were you guarded while Genov and Cuk were driven away?

20 A. Yes. This older man stood guard over us, about a few metres away

21 from us. We were sitting next to a wall on the ground. At one point I

22 asked him if it was okay for us to smoke, and he said it was.

23 Q. Did this soldier have a weapon while he guarded you?

24 A. Yes. He had a semi-automatic rifle with the implement for rifle

25 launch grenades.

Page 1298

1 Q. Other than allowing you to have a cigarette, did this soldier say

2 anything to you?

3 A. Yes. He told us about Greater Albania and things like that, and

4 that he could kill us, throw our bodies away, and tell everybody that we

5 had tried to escape but that he wouldn't do that.

6 Q. How were you feeling at this time?

7 A. Terrible.

8 Q. How about your son? What was his reaction? Take your time. We

9 can take a moment if you like.

10 A. My son was terribly frightened. He thought that he would be

11 killed, just like me.

12 Q. Did a car eventually come to pick up you and your son?

13 A. Yes. Perhaps it was within half an hour's time. I don't know

14 exactly, but they did come back for the two of us eventually.

15 Q. And where were you taken?

16 A. As far as we were concerned, we were taken in an unknown

17 direction. It's only when we arrived that we realised where we had come.

18 Q. And where was that? Where had you arrived, if you can describe

19 the building or the room?

20 A. It was a village. I can put it that way. There was a building

21 there. It had some kind of a fence around it. Perhaps I could put it

22 this way: It was like a school, like a village school. We entered the

23 building, and there were seats for students there, two or three in one row

24 and three or four in the other row, and that's where Cuk and Genov were

25 sitting as we walked in.

Page 1299

1 Q. What was happening when you walked in?

2 A. Those two were already being beaten by men who were there. It was

3 Genov and Cuk who were being beaten. I remember that Cuk had to hit his

4 head against a wall.

5 The two of us sat in the back seat, and I was facing the middle of

6 the room. Genov was sitting next to me, and Cuk was in front later on

7 when they picked them up -- when they picked him up from the floor.

8 Q. The men who were there, as you say, what were these men wearing,

9 the men who were beating Cuk and -- Cuk?

10 A. Camouflage uniforms, some of them, and others in civilian

11 clothing.

12 Q. Did they have weapons?

13 A. Yes, they did have weapons.

14 Q. Were these soldiers asking any questions of Genov and Cuk?

15 A. They were asking them who they were, what they did. I remember

16 that Genov said that he worked in Electrokosovo. He did not mention the

17 army. He probably knew what would happen to him if he did.

18 Cuk kept saying that he was a refugee, that he had nothing to do

19 with anything, that his field of work was construction and things like

20 that.

21 Later on, they asked me and Ivan, too, what we were and who we

22 were. We said that we were refugees, that we were on our way to Belgrade.

23 Q. Before you get there, did you personally speak to Genov at any

24 time in this classroom?

25 A. Not then, no. Not by then.

Page 1300

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1301

1 Q. When did you speak with Genov? Did you speak with him at any time

2 while you were in this school building that you've described?

3 A. Only once, when he offered me his wallet, and I said, "I can't."

4 Q. Why did he offer you his wallet?

5 A. Later on, I realised why. I mean, I realised why when his wallet

6 dropped out of his pocket. In his wallet, he had his military ID.

7 Q. What happened after his wallet fell out of his pocket?

8 A. They were beating him, and that's how his wallet fell out. Then

9 they picked it up. They opened it, and they realised who he was, and that

10 was the end of him.

11 Q. Where were Genov and Cuk being beaten? Was it -- was it in the

12 classroom or was it outside of the classroom where you were?

13 A. Before they found that wallet that belonged to Cuk or -- I'm

14 sorry, to Genov, they beat them there, and they also took them out of that

15 room. My Ivan cried terribly. So --

16 Q. Could you see Genov and Cuk being beaten?

17 A. No. We just heard them moaning.

18 Q. What about while they were in the classroom? Did you see them

19 being beaten there?

20 A. Yes, we did. They beat Genov when they saw that military ID.

21 Then this man who had asked for our documents on the bus literally jumped

22 on him and started beating him on the legs and on the chest. He was

23 beaten.

24 Q. What did they use to beat Genov? Did they use their fists or did

25 they kick him? How did they beat him?

Page 1302

1 A. They kicked him. They hit him with their hands and fists, and at

2 one moment even with a rifle butt.

3 Q. How many soldiers participated in beating them?

4 A. It was only that one soldier who was beating them there. As for

5 the other place, I don't know. Usually it was just one person who was

6 doing the beating, not two.

7 Q. How many soldiers did you see while you were in the classroom, if

8 you can remember?

9 A. There were more than five of them.

10 Q. How long did these beatings last?

11 A. I could not say exactly. At any rate, until it got dark, because

12 they were waiting for nightfall in order for us to move on.

13 Q. What was the condition of Genov and Cuk by the time this beating

14 was over?

15 A. Genov was in pain. At one moment, he was unconscious. Cuk was

16 just beaten up. He had bruises on his head. But it was Genov who was

17 really the victim.

18 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, it may be an appropriate time to take a

19 break.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We'll adjourn now and resume at ten

21 past.

22 --- Recess taken at 5.50 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 6.14 p.m.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Black.

25 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. Actually, this would be --

Page 1305

1 We boarded the van after they did. They put plastic bags on their

2 heads, and they gave us blindfolds, some kind of bands. Then we set off

3 for this other location.

4 Q. Who was in the kombi besides yourself and your son and Genov and

5 Cuk?

6 A. A driver and one or two men. I can't remember exactly.

7 Q. Were these men armed?

8 A. Yes, they were.

9 Q. Were did these men take you?

10 A. They took us to a house on a farm, I think. I don't know where

11 this was. I only learned about it later.

12 Q. Let me ask you, what happened when you arrive at your destination?

13 A. They entered the yard, then. There was a big gate there. We

14 stood in front of the door of a house, and they took the two of them in

15 and they took the two of us in, Ivan and me, that is.

16 Q. Did they remove your blindfold?

17 A. Yes. It was night-time. You couldn't see anything in the yard.

18 Q. You said, "They took the two of us in." Into where?

19 A. The ground floor of that house. First through a small kitchen or

20 something like that, and then to the left where there was a sort of

21 dining-room. There were some things that I wouldn't really call sofas.

22 There was something like sponge-like foam bedding.

23 Q. You said that you couldn't see anything in the yard because it was

24 night-time. Could you see inside this room or this place you were taken?

25 A. Yes. I saw this small room and the place where we were sitting

Page 1306

1 because the light was on.

2 MR. BLACK: With the assistance of Mr. Younis, I'd like to show

3 the witness part of Prosecution Exhibit P5, which will appear on his

4 screen.

5 Q. Do you see that? Do you see an image on your screen, sir?

6 A. Yes, I can see that.

7 MR. BLACK: Mr. Younis, if you could go in the ground floor of the

8 building labelled A1. Continue. And if you could pan around slowly,

9 please.

10 Q. Mr. Bakrac, can you recognise this room?

11 A. Yes. That was the room that we were brought to after the school,

12 except that there wasn't anything like a couch there. There were only

13 these foam mattresses.

14 MR. BLACK: If I could ask Mr. Younis to pan around to the left

15 again. Continue.

16 Q. Where were these foam mattresses?

17 A. On the floor by the wall.

18 MR. BLACK: I think we can turn off Sanction now for the moment.

19 Q. Mr. Bakrac, when you arrived in this room, did you see any

20 soldiers?

21 A. Yes. I saw a few men.

22 Q. Do you remember the name or nickname of any of those soldiers that

23 you saw?

24 A. I do not remember any names or nicknames. I found out about one

25 particular name later on, and I remembered that one.

Page 1307

1 Q. Which name was that?

2 A. Shala.

3 Q. Was Shala present in this room when you arrived?

4 A. I could not say with any degree of certainty. There were a lot of

5 people there, and I did not know anyone at the time.

6 Q. What was happening in this room when you arrived?

7 A. The mistreatment of Genov started again. Cuk not that much, but

8 Genov was beaten.

9 Q. Do you remember who was beating Genov?

10 A. There was a young man, sort of good looking, well-built. He's the

11 one who beat him.

12 Q. Do you remember how tall, approximately, this young man was?

13 A. I think he was about as tall as I am or perhaps a bit shorter.

14 Q. Do you remember the colour of his hair?

15 A. He had darker hair, and he also wore a beard.

16 Q. Did this person ever say anything to you about his education or

17 background?

18 A. Afterwards, he told me that he had studied at the university, that

19 he attended the PE school, physical education, and that he also knew

20 martial arts.

21 Q. Can you describe how he beat Genov?

22 A. With his hands and feet, and he jumped on him, all of that. I

23 don't remember all the details. He was really beaten up.

24 Q. Did this soldier say anything while he was beating Genov?

25 A. More or less how many people had the sergeant killed, things like

Page 1308

1 that. And that was invariably followed by beatings.

2 Q. At the beginning of your testimony, I asked you about statements

3 that you'd given previously to the ICTY and to another organisation, the

4 humanitarian law centre. Do you remember that? Do you remember those

5 questions of mine?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember if in those other statements you also described

8 this person that you've now told us was beating Stamen Genov?

9 A. I think so.

10 Q. Do you think you described him essentially the way you've

11 described him just now?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Bakrac, how many soldiers altogether were in the room, if you

14 can remember?

15 A. There were other soldiers there, but I can't remember the number.

16 Q. Do you remember how they were dressed?

17 A. Camouflage uniforms. Some were all in black. Some wore civilian

18 clothing. Their attire was mixed for the most part.

19 Q. Do you remember if any of them had weapons?

20 A. Yes, they did have weapons.

21 Q. Did any of these other soldiers also beat Genov?

22 A. I cannot recall.

23 Q. Why did the soldiers appear to target Genov and not to beat you or

24 Cuk or your son?

25 A. I think it was because he was a military man.

Page 1309

1 Q. Could you explain why would him being a military man lead the

2 soldiers to target him?

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would make an observation there's been a lack of

4 foundation that the opinion being asked for is within this particular

5 witness's purview.

6 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I was just asking, he was there, based on

7 his impressions, but if you would like me to move on --

8 JUDGE PARKER: I think move on.

9 MR. BLACK:

10 Q. Mr. Bakrac, at any time during the beating of Genov, were you and

11 your son taken out of the room?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What was the last thing that you remember happening in this room?

14 A. One of the soldiers said that a little girl in Djakovica had just

15 been raped. Then the man who was beating him took a knife out and made a

16 movement toward his genitals. Then they took Ivan and me out in front of

17 the house, and I heard Genov pleading with him, saying, "Please don't. I

18 never killed anyone." He was saying things to defend himself.

19 Q. Do you know if the soldier did anything to Genov with the knife

20 that he was threatening him with?

21 A. No.

22 Q. No, you don't know, or no, he didn't do anything to Genov with

23 that knife?

24 A. No, he didn't do anything.

25 Q. How long did this beating of Stamen Genov last altogether?

Page 1310

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1311

1 A. Soon after that, they transferred us to another room.

2 Q. What time was it approximately when they transferred you to

3 another room?

4 A. I can't say.

5 Q. What was Stamen Genov's condition when they took you to another

6 room?

7 A. Very serious condition. They practically had to carry him.

8 Q. You say that they transferred you to another room. Describe how

9 that happened, please.

10 A. I cannot give you the exact details, but at any rate, after the

11 incident with the knife, soon after that, we all went to the basement.

12 First the two of them, and then they wondered what they'd do with us, and

13 then they said that we should be taken to the basement too.

14 Q. Do you remember who said that you should be taken to the basement

15 too?

16 A. I don't know who said that. At any rate, I do know that it had

17 been said.

18 Q. Mr. Bakrac, I'd like you to briefly describe the basement to which

19 you were taken.

20 A. It was somewhere in the middle of the yard of that property.

21 There was a small window and a door. After the door opened, there was a

22 small step, and then you'd enter the room. I don't know the exact

23 dimensions. About three by five or six metres. I can't say exactly.

24 They took us in there. Some people were already there. They had

25 been there for quite awhile already.

Page 1312

1 Q. Please tell us who was already there when you arrived.

2 A. When we arrived, of course we didn't manage to see everything

3 immediately, but we realised that there was a total of 13 people in that

4 basement, including ourselves.

5 Q. Can you tell me what you remember about those 13 people? Who were

6 they?

7 A. Three ethnic Albanians were detained there, six ethnic Serbs, and

8 the four of us, the four newcomers.

9 Q. Can you give me any description of the three ethnic Albanians?

10 A. I couldn't really describe them, because I practically didn't see

11 them at all. They slept all the time. Nobody ever touched them. And

12 after all, it was dark in the basement.

13 Q. Would you be able to estimate how old they were?

14 A. No, I couldn't.

15 Q. What about the six ethnic Serbs that were there when you arrived?

16 Please tell me what you know about them.

17 A. There was a young man by the name of Zeljko. I don't know his

18 last name. He had been wounded in his leg.

19 There was an elderly gentleman. He was sick. He had diabetes,

20 and right before these events, he had undergone eye surgery.

21 There were the Krstic brothers. I don't know the names of the

22 other people there. I think that one of them was called Slobodan. I

23 remember that because my father's name is Slobodan.

24 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you a few questions about what you've just

25 told us.

Page 1313

1 You mentioned the Krstic brothers. Do you know where they were

2 from?

3 A. I think they were from Suva Reka. They were stopped as they were

4 driving in their civilian Golf, as they told me at that time. They were

5 intercepted. Their car was taken away, and they were taken to the

6 basement. I don't know how they got there, but that's where they ended

7 up, in that basement.

8 As for another gentleman, he had been abducted from a bus. We

9 learned from them that they had already been there for seven days by the

10 time we arrived. The three Albanians had been there even longer. Now, I

11 don't know whether that is accurate or not. That's what we heard from

12 them.

13 Q. To be clear, did you speak with these other men that were in the

14 basement with you?

15 A. Not much. They told us only those things. They knew that we

16 would be released. I don't know how they found that out. They probably

17 talked to somebody up there. We didn't. But they consoled us saying that

18 we would be released.

19 Q. Were the prisoners in the basement permitted to speak to one

20 another?

21 A. We mostly whispered, and only when it was necessary.

22 Q. Sir, you mentioned an older man who seemed to be sick. What more

23 can you tell me about him?

24 A. Only that he had diabetes and an eye injury which had caused him

25 to undergo surgery. I don't remember what else, what to say, what other

Page 1314

1 characteristics he had.

2 Q. Did you ever learn how he had arrived in the camp -- or in the

3 basement. Excuse me.

4 A. No. No. Perhaps -- I don't remember.

5 Q. Later, did you ever meet with anyone from this man's family? Can

6 you remember anything like that?

7 A. Yes. A man approached me, showed me a photograph and asked me if

8 I had seen that man. I said yes but that I didn't know what had happened

9 to him. It was in Pristina.

10 Q. And when did that happen, if you remember?

11 A. It was a day or two -- because I was in Pristina for two days. I

12 arrived in the evening and stayed in Pristina for another day. I stayed

13 with a lady who was the secretary of the Red Cross organisation for

14 Kosovo. It must have been in the Red Cross reception centre where I went

15 to see a doctor, because I was in a very bad shape psychologically. So it

16 must have happened there.

17 Q. So it was, just to be clear, after you'd left this place, after

18 you were released?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Sir, I asked you earlier about meeting with a Tribunal

21 investigator in January 2003. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you remember if that investigator showed you any photographs of

24 people that you recognised as being in the basement with you?

25 A. Yes.