041202ED

Page 1323

1 A. Yes, I do remember.

2 Q. And I simply forgot to ask you: Were there any Serbs on the bus

3 who were not asked off?

4 A. Later on when I met up with my wife, I heard about that. There

5 was some commotion with my wife, so then the man who was asking for IDs,

6 checking documents, did not go all the way to the end of the bus but he

7 stopped where my wife was because of all the commotion.

8 Q. Thank you. I'll move on to another question.

9 You remember that yesterday I asked you a number of questions

10 about when you first arrived at this place where you were held. And I

11 don't mean the school building, but the place that you described as a

12 house on a farm. Do you remember that generally?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. And I'll read you the specific passage that I'd like to focus on.

15 My question was: "What happened when you arrived at your destination?"

16 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, this is page 1305 of the corrected

17 transcript. I believe it's page 68 on the other version.

18 Q. Let me repeat that. My question to you was: "What happened when

19 you arrived at your destination?"

20 And you answered: "They entered the yard then. There was a big

21 gate there. We stood in front of the door of a house and they took the

22 two of them in and they took the two of us in, Ivan and me that is."

23 And I asked you: "Did they remove your blindfold?"

24 You said: "Yes, it was nighttime. You couldn't see anything in

25 the yard."

Page 1324

1 MR. BLACK: At this time I would ask the assistance of Mr.

2 Younis. Your Honours, with your permission, if the witness could be

3 given a copy of what was marked yesterday as P77 for identification.

4 This was a prior statement of the witness.

5 JUDGE PARKER: On what basis would the witness be looking at that

6 at this point?

7 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. I just wanted to point out

8 an inconsistency between what he said yesterday and what's in the

9 statement and try to see if he could in fact remember how it happened.

10 JUDGE PARKER: The statement is not in evidence. His evidence

11 yesterday stands as the evidence. Unless it is ventured in some

12 cross-examination, we will not get to explore that issue.

13 MR. BLACK: Very well, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry. It's not here a question of whether his

15 evidence is consistent with all his previous statements. You realise

16 that.

17 MR. BLACK: I do, of course. I'm just trying to make things as

18 clear as I can.

19 JUDGE PARKER: I'm grateful, but I'm afraid that there are some

20 lingerings of the common law of evidence that we must stick to.

21 MR. BLACK: Very well, Your Honour. Thank you.

22 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Bakrac, I'll move on to a new question.

23 You also told us yesterday that at some point you were taken to a

24 basement. Do you remember that?

25 A. Yes. After that building, we were taken to the basement.

Page 1325

1 Q. Let me again refer to the specific passage that I'm interested in

2 right now. My question was: "You say that they transferred you to

3 another room. Describe how that happened, please."

4 And you said: "I cannot give you the exact details, but at any

5 rate after the incident with the knife, soon after that, we all went to

6 the basement. First the two of them, and then they wondered what they'd

7 do with us and then they said we should be taken to the basement, too."

8 Then I asked you: "Do you remember who should be taken to the

9 basement, too?"

10 And your answer was: "I don't know who said that. At any rate,

11 I do know that it had been said."

12 Mr. Bakrac, do you think it would refresh your recollection if

13 you could look at the statement you made on the 2nd of August, 1998?

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: That would be an improper use for the notion of

15 refreshing recollection.

16 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, my remark is somewhat different.

17 At the commencement of this witness's evidence yesterday, he was asked by

18 my learned friend if he had had an opportunity, in addition to making the

19 statement and in addition to the proofing system that the Prosecution

20 engages in, to read the statement which my friend now talks about. He

21 said he had. And he had accordingly already used that document as a

22 memory-refreshing document outside the court. It is hardly fair, in my

23 submission, or appropriate to ask him in effect to crib off that

24 statement now.

25 MR. BLACK: If I could respond.

Page 1326

1 JUDGE PARKER: I would be grateful.

2 MR. BLACK: I asked him if he could remember who said that he

3 should be taken to the basement. He said, "I don't know who said that."

4 Perhaps I could ask him again if he remembers, or if he doesn't remember.

5 And if he doesn't remember, it seems that I should be allowed to refresh

6 his recollection.

7 JUDGE PARKER: That's where our understanding may differ, I'm

8 afraid, Mr. Black.

9 MR. BLACK: I'll absolutely obviously go with your understanding.

10 JUDGE PARKER: You can ask the first question, but there's not

11 point in it if you're not going to get past the second one.

12 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't know if I've

13 achieved any clarification of yesterday, but I'll move on.

14 JUDGE PARKER: On some other matters, perhaps.

15 MR. BLACK:

16 Q. Mr. Bakrac, I'd now like to go back to where you left off

17 yesterday. You had just described to us how you and the other prisoners

18 were arranged in the basement. Do you remember that?

19 A. Yes, I do remember that.

20 Q. Now, with the assistance of Mr. Younis and the Sanction system,

21 I'd like to show a part of Prosecution Exhibit P5, which is the 360

22 presentation.

23 Mr. Bakrac, do you recognise the place that you see on your

24 screen?

25 A. Yes, I do recognise it.

Page 1327

1 Q. Is this the basement where you were taken?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 MR. BLACK: If Mr. Younis could take us inside that room.

4 Q. Mr. Bakrac, here now, do you recognise what's on the screen now?

5 A. Not with these things, but it is the basement. It looked

6 different when it was empty and when there were only people there. There

7 were some shelves on the wall, and I remember one night I slept below

8 that shelf. My head was underneath that shelf.

9 MR. BLACK: Perhaps I could ask Mr. Younis to give us another

10 view.

11 Q. Do you recognise that image as well, sir?

12 A. Yes. Yes, that's what it looked like. But as I said, these

13 things weren't in there then.

14 Q. You told us that one night you slept below a shelf, that your

15 head was underneath the shelf. Can you tell us based on what you see in

16 front of you which shelf that was?

17 A. I didn't understand your question. Could you please repeat it.

18 Q. Of course. It was not a very good question; it wasn't very

19 clear.

20 Looking at the image if in front of you, can you describe to us

21 which one of those shelves you slept under.

22 A. First, underneath that shelf on the right-hand side, and one

23 night on the shelf itself.

24 Q. Thank you. I think we're done with Sanction for the moment.

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, just for the record, that last image I'm

Page 1328

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1329

1 told by Mr. Younis is the same as in the locations booklet and bears the

2 ERN U0083678, just for the future reference.

3 Q. Mr. Bakrac, how long were you and your son held in that basement?

4 A. I think two or three days and two or three nights. Not longer

5 than that.

6 Q. I'd like you to describe that basement. And first I'll ask you:

7 What was the floor made of, if you remember?

8 A. At first it was covered with straw and hay. I could not say with

9 any degree of certainty whether there was any concrete, too, but possibly

10 there was, yes.

11 Q. Did you have space in the basement to stretch out in?

12 A. No. There wasn't enough space for that.

13 Q. Was there a toilet in the basement?

14 A. No.

15 Q. How did you relieve yourselves?

16 A. There was a can by the door.

17 Q. Were you allowed outside of this basement, sir?

18 A. No, there wasn't.

19 Q. Was the door guarded?

20 A. Somebody was there all the time. People like guards and -- it

21 wasn't that there was someone there all the time.

22 Q. Do you remember any of those guards in particular?

23 A. I remember when in the morning a man came and walked in and

24 brought a pack of cigarettes to every one of the people there who smoked

25 and breakfast, too -- no, actually, there wasn't any breakfast. That was

Page 1330

1 the first meeting with the guards.

2 Q. Who was it that brought you food and cigarettes?

3 A. One of the men there, they called him Shala. I remember that. I

4 had a lot of contact with him later.

5 Q. How old was Shala?

6 A. I don't know. Perhaps 45, 50. I can't say anything for sure.

7 He was an older person, something like that.

8 Q. Do you remember how tall he was?

9 A. I don't know. Perhaps around my height, shorter, taller, I don't

10 know. Something like that, approximately.

11 Q. Can you describe his face?

12 A. He had a cap and he had a black moustache.

13 Q. What colour was his hair?

14 A. I think it was dark. Sort of darker hair.

15 Q. Other than the cap that he wore, do you remember how he was

16 dressed?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What was Shala's role in the camp?

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honour, I think that question could be

20 phrased somewhat differently. I think it's somewhat suggestive. Perhaps

21 I'm being a bit precipitous.

22 JUDGE PARKER: I think you may be at this point. You're ahead of

23 me by a long shot.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'll sit down.

25 MR. BLACK:

Page 1331

1 Q. Please answer the question if you can, Mr. Bakrac.

2 A. His role was probably to be there as a kind of guard. He

3 communicated with us who were detained there. He brought us food and

4 cigarettes. And that's it.

5 Q. How did Shala treat you and your son?

6 A. Nicely. We didn't have any contacts in the basement, no special

7 contacts.

8 Q. You say you didn't have any special contacts. Could you explain

9 what you mean, please.

10 A. We were in the basement and no one asked us a thing. The only

11 thing they did was take off our gold chains, the ones we wore around our

12 necks. It happened one night; I don't know who did it.

13 Q. Did you have contacts with Shala after you left the basement?

14 A. I did. We spoke just formally, nothing specific; when we'd see

15 each other, when he'd come to see us, that's all.

16 Q. Maybe I can ask it more clearly. How often did you see Shala

17 approximately?

18 A. We saw him whenever he was there.

19 Q. And how often was that?

20 A. They changed, these people who were there as a kind of guards.

21 There were two other men besides him.

22 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I want to ask this in a non-leading way,

23 so perhaps you can guide me if I've gone astray.

24 Q. Mr. Bakrac, did you see Shala once a day? Once a week? Can you

25 help us on the frequency with which you saw him.

Page 1332

1 A. While we were in the basement, we didn't see him. When they

2 transferred us to the room in the main building, then we would see him.

3 Sometimes it would happen a few times a day, of course, when he was

4 there.

5 Q. Thank you. You say you spoke just formally with Shala. Did you

6 look directly at him when you spoke with him?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And how far away from him were you when you spoke with him?

9 A. The way you normally talk to a person, not from far away. We

10 were in the same room.

11 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you: While you were in the

12 basement, did any of the detainees tell you whether they had been beaten

13 or not?

14 A. They said that they had not been beaten.

15 Q. Was anyone beaten while you were in the basement?

16 A. Yes. Genov was taken out and then brought back half an hour or

17 an hour later and he would be beaten up.

18 Q. How many times did this happen?

19 A. Every day. It seems to me that it would be once, and I remember

20 that at one point -- one night they took him out twice.

21 Q. What time of day did they take Genov out to be beaten up?

22 A. Once it was during the day and all the other cases happened at

23 night.

24 Q. Did you ever see the people who came to take out Genov?

25 A. No. It was night. I remember that they had hoods on their

Page 1333

1 heads, and even if they had not had hoods it would have been impossible

2 for us to see their faces.

3 Q. What condition was Genov in when he returned to the basement

4 after these beatings?

5 A. Many times he was semi-conscious. He had been beaten up pretty

6 badly. One time he was unconscious.

7 Q. Did you try to help Genov?

8 A. Yes, I had a handkerchief. I wet it with some water. And Ivan

9 and myself put it on him, on his -- the kidney area, and on his chest as

10 a kind of poultice or something.

11 Q. Was Genov able to use the bucket to relieve himself?

12 A. No. He was unable to relieve himself. I know that once we

13 brought the bucket to him to relieve himself. He was unable to go

14 himself.

15 Q. Did Genov ever speak to you about his condition or ask you for

16 help?

17 A. One night he asked me first -- or I don't remember. Maybe it was

18 Ivan first. He asked us to strangle him because he was unable to go on.

19 I couldn't do that; Ivan couldn't do that either.

20 Q. While you were in the basement, other than the people there with

21 you, did you ever see any other people who appeared to be prisoners?

22 A. We didn't see anyone from the basement. In fact, we only saw

23 some people passing by. We didn't dare approach the window but we could

24 see people passing by.

25 Q. When you say "passing by," could you tell where they were going

Page 1334

1 or where they were coming from?

2 A. We didn't see them. In fact, we heard their footsteps. And then

3 we would hear footsteps again, maybe half an hour later, of people coming

4 back.

5 Q. Mr. Bakrac, while you were held in the basement were you ever

6 informed of why you were being held?

7 A. No, nobody told us why. One day the Krstic brothers told us that

8 we would be released, that there was no reason for us to fear, that Ivan

9 and I would be released.

10 Q. But from the soldiers, did any one of them ever tell you that you

11 were charged with an offence?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Mr. Bakrac, you said that you were in the basement for

14 approximately two or three days or two days and two nights. Did you

15 eventually leave the basement?

16 A. Yes, at one point. I think it was on the third day.

17 Q. Did you and Ivan leave the basement at the same time?

18 A. No. First a gentleman came for Ivan and said that he should get

19 out. He went out, the door closed. I was very upset. I started crying,

20 and the others tried to calm me down, to say not to worry, that nothing

21 would happen. But I am a father.

22 Q. Can you describe the person who came for Ivan and said that he

23 should get out?

24 A. It was a man who was taller than I am. He wore a uniform, a

25 camouflage uniform, a neat uniform. He had a small beard and an

Page 1335

1 officer's satchel.

2 Q. Do you remember about how old he was?

3 A. Perhaps in his 30s, 30, 35. He was younger than I am, if my

4 memory serves me right.

5 Q. Did this commander tell you anything about himself, about his

6 background or his education?

7 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, my friend of course knows the

8 objection that's coming. I think what he can say is: Did that person

9 say anything to you at all? But there's no need obviously to suggest a

10 particular subject of conversation when that has not been even touched

11 upon by the witness. If it is --

12 JUDGE PARKER: I'm not inclined to agree, Mr. Khan. Directing

13 the witness's attention to a particular subject and asking whether that

14 was spoken about is not suggesting what that might be the content of any

15 conversation.

16 MR. KHAN: So be it, I'm grateful.

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have a slightly different observation, Your

18 Honour, which is that he is leading the witnesses in identifying this

19 particular individual as having a particular role and a particular

20 status, one which this particular witness has not identified before the

21 question asked. And that is specifically of -- and by mentioning it of

22 course I'm going to --

23 MR. BLACK: Perhaps I can help. I see the problem. That was a

24 mistake of mine. I'll rephrase the question in that way.

25 MR. KHAN: That's very kind.

Page 1336

1 MR. BLACK:

2 Q. Mr. Bakrac, this person that you've just described, did he tell

3 you anything about himself, about his background or his education?

4 A. It seems to me that he didn't say anything in the basement, but I

5 did have another encounter with him.

6 Q. During that other encounter did he tell you anything about

7 himself, his background or his education?

8 A. No. He merely said that he was a lawyer.

9 Q. Mr. Bakrac, could you tell what this person's position was at the

10 camp?

11 A. I wouldn't know what his position was, his function. But I know

12 that Albanians are very obedient people and he was obeyed by the others.

13 So I assume that he had a superior position because they do respect

14 superiors. I used to be a manager and I know how the Albanians treated

15 me, and that is what led me to conclude that he had a superior position.

16 Q. Thank you. You said he was obeyed by the others. Which others

17 do you mean?

18 A. I meant the people who were there.

19 Q. Do you mean the other people -- the Albanians in the basement

20 with you or someone else?

21 A. No. I'm referring to the people who were there: soldiers,

22 guards.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Before you move on I must apologise to you, Mr.

25 Khan. I had missed the opening two words of what had been the question

Page 1337

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1338

1 that was concerning you and the reference to commander. I'm sorry.

2 MR. KHAN: No problem.

3 MR. BLACK:

4 Q. Mr. Bakrac, you were describing how Ivan had been told that he

5 needed to get out of the basement and your reaction. Please tell us what

6 happened next.

7 A. Soon after one of the soldiers came. I don't remember who it

8 was. He came to pick me up. And I went to the main building on the

9 ground floor. The room where Ivan and this gentleman sat. Ivan was

10 drinking tea. They were chit-chatting. I walked in and he told me that

11 Ivan would no longer have to stay in the basement, in the stink that was

12 there, that it was no place for him. And I don't remember all the other

13 things that he said. I remember those particular words. Soon after that

14 I was taken back to the basement. I took it really hard. I'm a very

15 emotional person. It wasn't easy for me to leave my son there. I went

16 to the basement, and perhaps half an hour, an hour -- half an hour later

17 the door opened once again and Mr. Shala called me out. I went out and

18 saw Ivan sitting on the grass in the yard a bit further up the well,

19 because there was a well there. I joined him and I also sat down. And I

20 felt much, much easier. We didn't sit there for a long time. I heard

21 the sound of a car engine. Mr. Shala took us to the first floor upstairs

22 in the building, in the main building. And until the moment of our

23 release, we remained there.

24 Q. Thank you. Let me stop you there for a moment and ask Mr.

25 Younis, again with the Sanction, to put Prosecution Exhibit P5 up. It's

Page 1339

1 the 360 presentation.

2 Mr. Bakrac, there will be an image on your screen now. Do you

3 recognise that place?

4 A. Yes, that's the yard.

5 Q. And when you say "the first floor," "upstairs in the main

6 building," which building do you mean?

7 MR. BLACK: Perhaps Mr. Younis could pan around.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the building. If you could

9 go back a bit.

10 MR. BLACK: If Mr. Younis could go back a bit.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the building.

12 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, perhaps for the record again, in the

13 locations booklet this is the building which bears the ERN U0083669.

14 Perhaps Mr. Younis can take us into the upstairs of that building. And

15 if he can pan around.

16 Q. I'll ask you, Mr. Bakrac, to watch this for a moment.

17 Mr. Bakrac, do you recognise this place?

18 A. Yes. That is the room where Ivan and I were.

19 Q. Did that room look any differently at the time you were there

20 than it does in the images you have seen?

21 A. Well, mostly it looked like that. The shelf with the TV was

22 there. The aerial and the foam mattresses were on the floor. That was

23 some kind of a room for ...

24 Q. Please continue. I'm sorry to interrupt you.

25 A. The foam mattresses were lined up there. It was some kind of a

Page 1340

1 room for rest. And that's where they kept some other people, not just

2 us.

3 Q. That was my next question. Was anyone else in this room when you

4 arrived?

5 A. Yes. I'm sure that there were two of them. I'm not sure whether

6 there was a third man, too. But two I'm sure were there when we arrived.

7 MR. BLACK: I'll ask Mr. Younis to take the Sanction off. We're

8 done with that for the time being.

9 Q. Mr. Bakrac, what can you describe about these two men who were

10 there when you arrived? What can you tell me about them?

11 A. There were two young Albanian men. They were there also in some

12 kind of detention. We spoke to them, so I know what it was all about.

13 They also told us that we should not be afraid, that we would be

14 released. They were there undergoing some kind of a check-up. I don't

15 know if they had any connections with the Serb side. That's what they

16 were checking up, because they wanted to join the Kosovo army. One of

17 them was called "Gzim," I know that for sure. I don't know which one of

18 them it was. One of them had worked in Switzerland and he told me that

19 he had been working there for years and giving them money for the cause

20 and now he had to sit there, wait in detention. The other one was there

21 slightly longer than the first one. He was also undergoing some checks,

22 background checks, because of suspicion that he had been collaborating

23 with Serbs. That's what they told me.

24 Q. How many days were you held in this room, do you remember?

25 A. We were there in this room for five days, until the day when we

Page 1341

1 were released.

2 Q. Did you ever go back to the room on the ground floor, the first

3 one that you were taken to when you arrived at the farm?

4 A. Yes. On one occasion we were called to go down there. We had

5 tea. We sat there.

6 Q. Did anything else happen besides having tea?

7 A. Yes. There was an unpleasant situation for me and for my son.

8 We had to watch as other men were beaten.

9 Q. I know it's unpleasant, but I'm going to ask you to describe that

10 occasion for the Trial Chamber. First, do you remember how many men were

11 there being beaten?

12 A. They brought four or five of them. I don't know the exact

13 number, but it wasn't more than five. They lined them up and started

14 beating them. They would beat every one of them for five or ten minutes,

15 slapping them, kicking them, hitting them on their legs. One of them was

16 unable to stand at all. At any rate, they were beaten up.

17 Q. Did you recognise any of the soldiers who participated in the

18 beating?

19 A. Yes. The same man that beat Genov beat these people. I'm

20 referring to the first day when we arrived there, in that facility.

21 Q. Was this person armed now on this occasion that you're describing

22 right now?

23 A. He had a pistol.

24 Q. Did he do anything with that pistol?

25 A. Yes. I remember that. When they stopped beating them he handed

Page 1342

1 the pistol to one of these men and he told him to kill the others. The

2 man lifted the pistol up and put him next to a person's forehead. They

3 were crying, begging for mercy. Then this first man took the pistol, put

4 it next to the other man's forehead and fired it, but it was empty. I

5 think it was some kind of psychological torture.

6 Q. While you and your son were watching this, were you sitting

7 alone?

8 A. There were -- there was Ivan, myself, and the man -- the

9 gentleman who had come to get Ivan out of the basement, the man I

10 referred to as the superior, as the commander. At one point he told me

11 that these were traitors to their people. He asked me, What do you do

12 with your traitors? I merely said, Treason is treason. That's what I

13 said. I don't know at that point.

14 Q. Did this superior tell you anything else on this occasion?

15 A. No, but before that he had said that he was a lawyer. So he did

16 say some things. But I don't really remember exactly. Apart from this

17 thing that he asked me, What do you do with your traitors?

18 Q. How long did this incident last?

19 A. Not long. Half an hour, 45 minutes, an hour at the most.

20 Q. And what happened when it was over? Where were you taken?

21 A. We were taken back to the room upstairs.

22 Q. Mr. Bakrac, did you ever see Stamen Genov again after you were

23 taken upstairs?

24 A. No. I never saw Genov or Cuk or any other person from there

25 again.

Page 1343

1 Q. I'm not asking if you spoke with him, but did you ever learn

2 anything more about Genov while you were still at this farm?

3 A. One day we did learn --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry. I do

5 recall the events but I can't remember the exact order in which they took

6 place, whether it was yesterday or the day before, but I do remember the

7 event itself. Please do take that into account.

8 MR. BLACK:

9 Q. Please describe this event where you learned more about Genov.

10 A. We were in the room upstairs and were using the toilet that was

11 also used by the others. One day they told us not to use the toilet

12 anymore but to use the one at the bottom of the yard because the masters

13 of the house were here now and the toilet was for their use. So Ivan one

14 day went to the toilet and he asked, What happened with the sergeant?

15 The people standing at the window of the basement told him that they had

16 been told that he had been released. That was the only thing that we had

17 heard about Genov.

18 Q. While you were in the upstairs, were you ever asked to give a

19 statement?

20 A. Yes. We were told that we would have to give a statement before

21 being released about how we fared in the camp, how we were treated. In

22 general, we were supposed to write down everything about that.

23 Q. Who told you this, that you were going to have to give this

24 statement?

25 A. We were told by this gentleman, the commander. That's what I

Page 1344

1 call him. I don't know whether he was one or not.

2 Q. Is this the same person that had come to take Ivan out of the

3 basement? Is that who you mean?

4 A. Yes, that was the man. I had a little chat with him there. I

5 felt a bit freer and I asked him something about their military, whether

6 they had any kind of international recognition, everything that came to

7 my mind. He told me that they did not have international recognition but

8 they were working on it. That was the first time I asked him a direct

9 question, whether we would be released or not. And he said, Yes, we only

10 have to find a way to transfer you and also find a place to transfer you

11 to. I felt much better after that.

12 Q. Were you told that you would give a written statement or a spoken

13 statement? What kind of statement were you going to have to give?

14 A. They told us that we should make a written statement about

15 everything that had happened to us, both Ivan and myself, and that we

16 would probably have to repeat all that before a camera. But first we had

17 to write everything down so they see what our statements would be like,

18 to see what we had to say.

19 Q. And did they review the statement that you wrote?

20 A. The day after they brought me a piece of paper and a pencil, and

21 then they had a look at the statements. They were happy with it, with my

22 statement. And then they said that I would have to repeat the same thing

23 before a camera, that I would be taped and that Ivan would be taped, too.

24 Q. And did that eventually happen?

25 A. Yes, it did. It was in the early evening -- it was in the early

Page 1345

1 evening. We were sitting in the room. Two gunshots were heard; Ivan and

2 I remember that. Then these people came, this commander, Shala. There

3 must have been about seven or eight of them. It was the first time I saw

4 most of them there. There was one man among them who was well-built. He

5 had a pistol in his hand. First he talked to us about a greater Albania,

6 that it was theirs, what were we doing there; We were taking jobs away

7 from Albanians, that our children went to school and that their children

8 did not go to school. That's what everybody told us, whoever we talked

9 to. At one moment he said, I can kill your son. And that shocked me. I

10 started shaking and I probably had a nervous breakdown then. And he

11 said, Ah, you're shaking and our people don't have a chance to shake

12 before your people. He was speaking in Serbian but not pure Serbian.

13 Then he turned to Shala and asked him to clean his pistol for him. It

14 was our understanding then that Genov had been killed; we assumed that.

15 Q. Why did you assume then that Genov had been killed?

16 A. Well, I put the puzzle together, that they told Ivan that he had

17 been released and then the gunshots rang out and then no one heard of

18 him.

19 Q. Did you then make your video statement that they'd said you'd

20 have to make?

21 A. Yes. I was sitting in a chair. They were around us, all these

22 men. One man placed a video camera on a tripod. He was a big man in

23 uniform; they all wore uniforms. There was also a very nice gentleman

24 there, very tidy, an elderly gentleman, rather short, but a very

25 well-groomed person. I started talking, saying that they did not

Page 1346

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1347

1 mistreat us, that they did not beat us, that they were a regular army,

2 that they had their duties. I went on talking but with a bit of

3 nervousness and a bit of fear, which was noticeable. So I had to repeat

4 it but without any fear. I repeated my statement before the camera.

5 They were pleased with my statement. I was not allowed to mention the

6 basement, but I was mainly supposed to talk about what happened to us,

7 how we were treated, and what they did to us. I said all of that, what

8 did they do to us? Nothing. That we had cigarettes, that we had water,

9 that we had food. At that moment I would have said anything to set us

10 free.

11 Q. What about your son, Ivan, did he also give a statement?

12 A. Yes, he gave a statement, too.

13 Q. And do you remember what he said?

14 A. He repeated what I had said, because we were sitting next to each

15 other so he heard it. He also mentioned that he had played chess with

16 Shala, which was true.

17 Q. Did any of these soldiers tell you anything about why you were

18 being held or how long you would be held?

19 A. No. They just said that we would be there until - how should I

20 put this? - they find the right place and time to get in touch with the

21 UNHCR and the International Red Cross, who were supposed to take care of

22 us.

23 Q. After giving these statements, did you remain in the upstairs?

24 A. Yes, we did.

25 Q. What else, if anything, happened in your last days there? Do you

Page 1348

1 remember speaking to anyone?

2 A. I talked to this commander, to -- yes, when I asked him whether

3 we would be set free, I asked him whether he could phone my wife and tell

4 her that we were alive and well. He had a mobile telephone. He said

5 that he could not do that from a mobile phone but that he could do it. I

6 gave him my mother-in-law's telephone number. And I thought that perhaps

7 he would call because I did not see any reason why he wouldn't do this

8 for me if he said he could. And he really did it. He called my wife's

9 mother and said that Vojko and Ivan were alive and we would be released.

10 The following day he did tell me that he had called.

11 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber what happened on your last day at

12 this farm.

13 A. The last day they came to get us, if that's what you're referring

14 to. We heard a door squeaking at one point and a car came into the yard.

15 Ivan and I were standing there, or rather I looked through the window and

16 I saw a Jeep and a lot of soldiers wearing uniforms. They came upstairs

17 and this nice gentleman, who I described a few minutes ago that he was an

18 elderly man but very well-groomed, he said to me the previous day that we

19 would be released. He gave me his word of honour, their Albanian word of

20 honour, and I believed him. And that indeed came true. He said to me,

21 See, the moment has come for you to go home. I asked for my gold chain

22 and the ring my wife had given to me as a gift. They had forgotten about

23 that, so they went to get it. They returned perhaps half an hour later.

24 They didn't bring my documents, though, but I did need my refugee ID.

25 However, they said that they couldn't find it. I said that they put

Page 1349

1 everything in Genov's wallet in the school. When we were first brought

2 to the school they picked up all the documents and put them all into

3 Genov's wallet. He came back and said, You're right, it was there. He

4 brought us our things. We put on our shoes that had been on the stairs

5 and we went to the Jeep. We said goodbye to Shala and left.

6 Q. The fact that your documents had been in Genov's wallet where you

7 said they were, did that suggest anything to you about Genov's fate?

8 A. Yes. I did know, because they said that whoever was released

9 would receive all of his things.

10 Q. Could you please explain that a little more.

11 A. About what? I'm sorry.

12 Q. You said that: "Whoever was released would receive all of his

13 things," but what did that tell you about Genov? I don't understand.

14 Could you please explain it.

15 A. Since Genov's wallet was there, that meant that it had not been

16 returned to him. So that confirmed my suspicion that he had been killed.

17 Q. You said you said goodbye to Shala and left. Please explain what

18 happened then.

19 A. We got into the Jeep. There were two men sitting in front. Now,

20 was there someone behind us? I can't remember that. They blindfolded us

21 and we set off. It was still daytime. We took the macadam road. We

22 probably took a road that went all the way around; it was not an asphalt

23 road. We drove on for about 15 or 20 minutes, and then we turned

24 abruptly at a 90-degree angle. That's where they took off our

25 blindfolds.

Page 1350

1 I don't know how long we drove along the asphalt road, but then

2 we came to a settlement where many people lived. It was Malisevo. I saw

3 a lot of people at the gasoline station and shops, so I assumed that it

4 was Malisevo. We came to a place where we stopped. I had already

5 noticed two white Jeeps of the Red Cross about 200 metres away from us.

6 A man was standing there. He had a scar on his face; I remember that,

7 but I don't remember which side. He said that we should stand there and

8 wait for a while. They went up to these people from the Red Cross.

9 These were two women, actually. They had a Jeep each. They drove a Jeep

10 each. Then they spent some time at a cafe that was there, perhaps 15 or

11 20 minutes, and then they went back to their Jeeps and then they set out.

12 First there was a car, then the two Jeeps, and then us, and then somebody

13 else behind us.

14 So we left that town or that settlement. After a while, I don't

15 know how much time had gone by, everybody stopped. We had to get out of

16 the Jeep. The two women got out, too, or girls, I don't know. The women

17 or girls from the Red Cross, they didn't speak Serbian or Albanian. They

18 had a gentleman who interpreted both Serbian and Albanian for them. He

19 was probably interpreting into English because they were English. We got

20 off the Jeep and we were supposed to take off our shirts so that they

21 could see that we had not been injured, so they could see that we didn't

22 have any scars, and indeed we didn't have any scars, so we showed them

23 that. And then we got into the International Red Cross Jeep. Ivan and I

24 were inside, still trembling, not believing all of this. And we set out.

25 We drove for a while and then we stopped again. There was a kind

Page 1351

1 of checkpoint there, barricades, military men, and that's where the man

2 with a scar said that these two Jeeps had to pass through. We saw that

3 the person at the checkpoint was in two minds, wondering why he had to

4 let us go. I was in the car wondering what they were saying, but there

5 was a discussion between him and the man with a scar. We were a bit

6 afraid then, but after a minute or two it was over.

7 We continued our journey to Pristina. These women drove us to

8 Pristina. One was in front and we were in the back -- in the Jeep.

9 That's how we reached Pristina, the International Red Cross. They met us

10 there, these people from this international body, and a lady. If I

11 remember correctly her name was Ruzica Simic. That was the lady who had

12 sent us to Djakovica. She was a secretary for refugees for Kosovo. We

13 were taken to her house for a day or two. I can't remember exactly for

14 how long. She gave us clothing so that we could change, take a bath, get

15 some rest.

16 And that's how things went. That's how Ivan and I were released

17 from that camp.

18 Q. Mr. Bakrac, what was your reaction when you realised that you

19 were free?

20 A. I just cried. I couldn't stop crying. No one could stop me.

21 The following month or month and a half, whenever I would meet someone I

22 knew I would burst into tears. I couldn't even talk. I went to see a

23 psychiatrist at the hospital for refugees and I went there every day for

24 two or three weeks. Until the present day when I speak to someone on the

25 telephone, I can't talk. I simply burst into tears if it's a person I

Page 1352

1 like.

2 Q. Why do you think that you and your son were kidnapped?

3 A. I think -- well, it's not that I think. We were not of Albanian

4 ethnicity. In my son's documents and in my documents it doesn't say that

5 we are Serbs at all. In my documents it says that I was born in Brezice

6 and in Ivan's documents that he was born in Zagreb, but it's the name and

7 surname.

8 Q. Why do you think you were released?

9 A. I think -- I think that we were mistakenly taken off the bus, now

10 that I look at all the facts. And my wife did a great thing. After we

11 were taken off the bus, she stopped the bus at the first checkpoint and

12 told everybody what had happened. She did not sleep, she did not eat.

13 She went from one house to another, practically. She was on television,

14 the Voice of America, CNN. She was all over the place. She told

15 everybody what had happened, not only to me but also to the other two

16 men, that we were kidnapped. At one moment while we were upstairs, a man

17 came and he said to me, Your wife was on television yesterday. And then

18 my Ivan said, Oh my God, Daddy. But the man said, Don't worry about what

19 she said. They watched it over satellite TV. It was the Voice of

20 America. All things considered, I think I was taken off the bus

21 mistakenly.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I don't have any further questions at

24 this time. You can tender the witness for cross-examination.

25 JUDGE PARKER: We will have a break now and it will be -- there's

Page 1353

1 reason for the Chamber to have a slightly longer break than usual. We

2 will resume at 10 minutes past 4.00.

3 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 --- Recess taken at 3.39 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski.

7 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, my friends have asked me to go

8 first --

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: No.

10 MR. TOPOLSKI: I asked to go first.

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.

12 MR. TOPOLSKI: That's right. It was one or the other.

13 JUDGE PARKER: And you are content, Mr. Guy-Smith, because if

14 you're not --

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I am content. It's just I think it's so terribly

16 important the record is correct.

17 JUDGE PARKER: You may correctly go first, Mr. Topolski.

18 MR. TOPOLSKI: I'm grateful.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:

20 Q. Mr. Bakrac, I represent a man called Isak Musliu. I just have a

21 few questions for you. You made a statement to the Organisation for

22 Humanitarian Law on the 2nd of August, 1998. Do you recollect doing

23 that?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. And as Mr. Black established with you yesterday, you made a

Page 1354

1 statement to this Tribunal in January of 2003.

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. I want to ask you about an interview that you had, however,

4 earlier than any of those dates, Mr. Bakrac. And that is an interview

5 that you described yesterday as having had with the Serbian authorities.

6 Do you remember telling us a bit about that yesterday?

7 A. Yes, I do remember.

8 Q. The date on which this interview took place may, sir, have been

9 the 7th of July of 1998. Now, I don't suppose for one moment you've kept

10 these dates entirely clear in your mind, but can you help us? Could that

11 be the correct date for this first interview with the Serbian

12 authorities?

13 A. I don't remember the date, but it was after my release.

14 Q. Yes. Well, we can work it this way, I think, together. You were

15 taken from the bus in the last days of June, were you not?

16 A. Yes, on the 29th of June.

17 Q. Thank you. Your best estimate in your statement to the ICTY

18 investigators was that you were in the camp, as you've described it, for

19 some seven or eight days. Do you remember saying that to them?

20 A. Yes. That would be it, up to ten days, not more than ten days.

21 Q. And if you saw the Serbian authorities the day after your release

22 that would take us, wouldn't it, by the calendar at least until about the

23 6th or 7th of July. Do you agree?

24 A. I don't know the date. I'm sorry.

25 Q. Well, it's gracious of you to apologise. You don't have to,

Page 1355

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1356

1 because I have an advantage over you. I have a note of a meeting, an

2 official note that has been disclosed to us by the Prosecution. It's

3 signed by someone called Corporal Stankovic. Now, do you remember the

4 names of anyone you saw the day after your release in Pristina?

5 A. No, I don't remember, because I don't know anyone in Pristina

6 apart from Ms. Ruzica Simic.

7 Q. Was it your own idea or was it at the suggestion of somebody else

8 that you went to the office of the State Security Centre in Pristina the

9 day after your release?

10 A. No. We were called to go there both by the military and by the

11 state security service. The military was supposed to pick us up but we

12 couldn't tell one from the other. They took us to the state security

13 centre; they are the police. That's the police force.

14 Q. Yes. Was the coordinator of that centre a man called David

15 Gajic?

16 A. I don't know the names.

17 Q. Did you receive a request delivered to you by a person or did you

18 receive something in writing to go to the State Security Centre in

19 Pristina?

20 A. If my memory serves me right, I did not receive anything in

21 writing. I think it was just a telephone conversation, a telephone call

22 that we received either in the house of Ruzica Simic or at the Red Cross.

23 I don't remember exactly.

24 Q. Very well. When you went to the office of the state security

25 centre, who else was with you, if anybody?

Page 1357

1 A. My son Ivan was with me.

2 Q. And was he there during the entirety of the interview you had

3 with the Serbian police?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I'll try not to repeat my questions. Did I understand your

6 evidence to be a moment ago that you can't remember the name of anyone

7 you saw there on the Serbian side, any of the officials. Is that the

8 position?

9 A. Yes, that would be it.

10 Q. Well, let me just put two names to you to see if either or both

11 of these ring any bells. And may I, sir, indicate that I am looking

12 again at a Serbian document.

13 MR. BLACK: Would it be possible to have an ERN number for

14 reference.

15 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes, of course it would.

16 I have an EDT number, Mr. Black, if that will help which is

17 0188-5938 to 0188-5939.

18 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much.

19 MR. TOPOLSKI:

20 Q. That, Mr. Bakrac, is a reference number on the top of a document

21 that is called a criminal report. It's a criminal report that relates in

22 part to your being taken from the bus. So that's what I have in front of

23 me. Do you understand me?

24 That report is signed by Dragan Jasevic and Momcilo Sparalevo.

25 Do either of those names mean anything to you?

Page 1358

1 A. No.

2 Q. I've already mentioned Stankovic, whose name appears at the

3 bottom of a note dated the 7th of July, a corporal Stankovic. There's

4 only one other name on this other document that has -- the only reference

5 number on it, for Mr. Black's benefit, 0188-5957 from a Major Petar,

6 P-e-t-a-r. Does that name mean anything to you?

7 A. No, nothing.

8 Q. Can you recollect now, sir, how many Serbian police officers were

9 present when you and Ivan, your son, were speaking with them in Pristina?

10 A. There were two of them.

11 Q. Did they appear to be of equal rank or did one appear to be more

12 senior than the other?

13 A. I couldn't tell you.

14 Q. Were either or both of them in uniform?

15 A. If I remember correctly, they were not.

16 Q. Only a lawyer could ask such a ridiculous-sounding question as

17 the next one, and I'm a lawyer so I'm going to ask it. Were any of them

18 making notes, as far as you can remember? Can you remember?

19 A. Yes. They were taking notes with a pencil in some kind of a

20 notepad.

21 Q. Were you asked to read or sign these notes at the end of your

22 meeting?

23 A. No. I did not read them and I cannot recall whether I signed

24 them or not.

25 Q. By the time you were speaking with them, did they indicate to you

Page 1359

1 that they knew that Genov had been taken from the same bus as you? Did

2 they seem to know that?

3 A. I couldn't tell you.

4 Q. Did they know -- did they seem to be aware that your wife had

5 been speaking to Voice of America and CNN and that therefore your taking

6 was in the public arena? Did they seem to know that?

7 A. It was known to the public. I still have the press clippings to

8 this day.

9 Q. I'm sure it's my fault, Mr. Bakrac, and I apologise to you. That

10 wasn't quite the answer to the question I asked you. The question was:

11 Did these interviewing Serbian officers, whatever they were, whoever they

12 were, did they seem to know that your wife had been on television

13 speaking about your taking?

14 A. No. It seems to me that they did not know that.

15 Q. In due course, as we know, both in August of 1998, in other words

16 the next month from this meeting, and then several years later to the

17 ICTY in 2003, you were able to give, were you not, detailed accounts of

18 your stay in this place in Lapusnik? We've had a lot of examples of the

19 detailed evidence you've been able to give. Do you agree? You were able

20 to give detailed accounts in due course of what happened to you?

21 A. Could you please repeat the first part of your question; I didn't

22 quite understand it.

23 Q. It was a bad question, it was overlong. In due course you were

24 able to give a lot of detailed information about what happened to you.

25 That's right, isn't it?

Page 1360

1 A. At that time, yes.

2 Q. Did you provide a lot of detailed information to these two

3 Serbian officers at your meeting with them probably on the 7th of July,

4 1998? Can you recollect?

5 A. Yes. I told them about what had happened to us.

6 Q. Were there any maps or plans out at this meeting, Mr. Bakrac?

7 Did they produce any maps or plans for you to look at, anything like

8 that?

9 A. No, no.

10 Q. Were you asked to draw any map or plan or sketch in relation to

11 where you had been taken by them?

12 A. No, because I did not know where I had been taken.

13 Q. In anything either of these Serb officers said, did either of

14 them seem to be aware of the existence of a place in Lapusnik where

15 people were being held? Did they seem to know about it, Mr. Bakrac?

16 A. I didn't know about that place. I learned after my release about

17 Crnoljevo. That was the only place that I had learned about. And as for

18 this other place, I didn't know about it.

19 Q. Again, sir, if I's my fault I apologise. I didn't ask you what

20 you knew. I was asking you whether from their questions -- these two

21 Serbian officers, 7th of July -- from what they were saying to you, did

22 they seem to know anything about this place where you had been.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did they suggest to you the names of any KLA soldiers operating

25 in the area where you might have been? Did they put any names to you?

Page 1361

1 A. No, they didn't.

2 Q. Approximately how long did this meeting with them in Pristina at

3 the State Security Centre last?

4 A. If I remember correctly, about an hour, an hour and a half, not

5 more than that.

6 Q. And were you treated well during it by them?

7 A. They just put questions to us and we gave answers.

8 Q. Were you treated well? Did they threaten you or anything of that

9 kind?

10 A. No, they did not threaten me.

11 Q. Other than this meeting on this day that lasted about one hour,

12 did you have any other interviews or meetings with Serbian police or army

13 or anyone from the state security apparatus as far as you remember?

14 A. No, we didn't have any.

15 Q. Very well. I only want to ask you two things about what took

16 place in the seven or eight days that you were held. First of all, Mr.

17 Bakrac, could you give us an estimation of the number of soldiers,

18 guards, whatever you'd like to call them, that you -- that were at this

19 place while you were held there? Can you give us any idea of how many?

20 A. If you consider everybody to be the soldiers, I'm sure that there

21 were seven or six who I know, who I used to meet. I cannot say anything

22 about those that I didn't see.

23 Q. Of course you can't, sir. One of the reasons I ask you is

24 because we're going to be hearing from your son, and in his statement to

25 the ICTY he estimates --

Page 1362

1 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, if we're going to hear from him - I

2 apologise for rising - but I'm not sure it's appropriate to go down this

3 path.

4 JUDGE PARKER: It's cross-examination, Mr. Black. It can be put

5 to him unless somebody else has said something different.

6 MR. BLACK: Very well. Thank you. I apologise for rising.

7 MR. TOPOLSKI:

8 Q. Your son estimated in a statement he made that there were some at

9 least 50 soldiers at this place. Now, you can only speak from your

10 experience, Mr. Bakrac, of course. But what do you say about that

11 estimate, 50?

12 A. I think that that would be a bit of an exaggeration because he

13 probably included all the soldiers. I referred only to those who I knew.

14 I cannot say anything about those I didn't know and I didn't see. I know

15 of the six or seven who were milling about all the time. I don't know

16 about the others.

17 Q. Could one of the difficulties, Mr. Bakrac, have been that some --

18 some of these soldiers, if that's what they were, were masked? Did some

19 wear masks?

20 A. Yes, they did aware masks.

21 Q. I'm going to show you, sir, a photograph, and I want you to be

22 clear. I'm not suggesting that there is anyone in this photograph who is

23 or even might have been at this place. That's not the purpose of showing

24 it to you. It's for another purpose.

25 MR. TOPOLSKI: It's the same photograph, Your Honours, that I

Page 1363

1 showed the previous witness. It comes from Prosecution Exhibit P18, and

2 I wonder whether it could be put on the Sanction for us all to see.

3 Q. Mr. Bakrac, that is a group of men and women. I want to ask you

4 two questions, really, about this photograph. The first is this:

5 Looking at those uniforms, did you see anyone wearing uniforms similar to

6 the black uniforms that we see on these people in this photograph when

7 you were at the place you were held?

8 A. Yes, I did, one night when they came to watch television, a few

9 of them that I saw for the first time then.

10 Q. The gentleman who is sitting with his right-hand to his chin next

11 to a woman is in a different kind of uniform, I'll describe it as

12 camouflage. Was that a uniform that you saw while you were there as

13 well?

14 A. Yes, I saw camouflage uniforms, too.

15 Q. On the arm of the woman to the extreme right of the photograph is

16 an armband. We can't see all of it, but I can I think with confidence

17 suggest to you that that armband has the letters "PU" on it. Have you

18 ever seen such an armband being worn before, Mr. Bakrac, by anyone?

19 A. No, I didn't.

20 Q. That's the general question, now the specific. Did you ever see

21 anyone at the place where you were held for seven days wearing an armband

22 with the letters "PU" on it?

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 Q. And for the sake of completeness, and the Chamber will understand

25 why I ask the question, did you ever see anyone with a cap badge with the

Page 1364

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1365

1 letters "PU" on it while you were held at the place for seven or eight

2 days?

3 A. No, I didn't. But I never looked at these people directly

4 because I was afraid.

5 Q. Well, we understand that answer entirely, Mr. Bakrac, of course.

6 But may I suggest s sir, and it's my last question on the photograph,

7 that it would have been difficult to look at anyone without noticing a

8 mask? Now -- at least masks like these. If you look in this photograph

9 if you look carefully, sir, you'll see five people, three standing and

10 two sitting who appear to have masks on. First of all, would you agree

11 with me that there are five?

12 A. I can see three and one down there.

13 Q. Yes. Next to the lady who's smiling --

14 A. Not five.

15 Q. Well, maybe the quality of your screen -- perhaps it doesn't much

16 matter. Focus if you would, please, on the three people who are

17 standing, all right? Those masks that they're wearing, do you first of

18 all agree with me that two of them seem to be of a similar style to each

19 other and slightly different to the one in the middle? Do you agree with

20 that, first of all?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Good. Now, looking at the people who are standing, first of all,

23 did you ever see anyone at the place you were held wearing a mask like

24 that?

25 A. Yes, one night when they came to the basement to get Genov.

Page 1366

1 Q. On any other occasion, apart from that one?

2 A. No. I didn't have occasion to see that.

3 Q. Now, looking at the person in the middle of the three masked

4 individuals with the slightly different style of mask revealing, you may

5 agree, Mr. Genov [sic], rather more of the eyes of the wearer, did you

6 ever see anyone wearing a mask like that while you were being held?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Thank you. That's all I ask you about the photograph.

9 Mr. Bakrac, do you remember meeting with a Mr. Vasil Dimitrov

10 after you had been released?

11 A. I don't know. Right now the name doesn't mean anything to me.

12 Q. Well, let me help you. At the Yugoslav Red Cross office in

13 Pristina, we will hear from Vasil Dimitrov who I apprehend will tell us

14 that he met with you and Ivan.

15 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I apologise for rising again, but if

16 he's going to ask the witness to comment on another witness's testimony

17 or another witness's statement, I don't think that's appropriate.

18 JUDGE PARKER: On what basis do you put that submission.

19 MR. BLACK: He can put these facts to him but he doesn't need to

20 mention the names of these particular witnesses. That would be my

21 submission.

22 JUDGE PARKER: What's your submission, Mr. Topolski.

23 MR. TOPOLSKI: Well, I'm just trying to make life easier for Mr.

24 Black's own witness, that's all. There can't possibly, in my submission,

25 be anything inappropriate, still less improper, than asking him about a

Page 1367

1 meeting he had with a man who has made a statement who is going to come

2 and give evidence, rather like his son Ivan, about numbers of soldiers.

3 I just simply want to ask him, to help him, whether he remembers meeting

4 with this man. That's all.

5 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I'm certainly in favour of anything that

6 helps the witness, but my understanding of the practice here is that of

7 course you can mention someone's name but then you don't need to point

8 out the fact that they're going to be a witness. Otherwise -- if you're

9 going to talk about things that are going to come up later in testimony

10 you can give those facts, but you don't need to specify what witness it's

11 coming from or that it will be testimony in the case. That's my

12 submission, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: I don't see the problem in that information being

14 provided, and I'm not aware of there being a practice, certainly not a

15 rule to the contrary. The fact that they will be a witness may be

16 superfluous to the question, but otherwise --

17 MR. TOPOLSKI: It probably is, actually.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

19 MR. TOPOLSKI: It doesn't give what he says in his statement any

20 more force or weight. It's just to help the witness, explain who the

21 person is, that's all.

22 Q. Mr. Bakrac, I'm sorry. We have, as it were, been talking over

23 you. I apologise. Do you remember him now, this man you met in

24 Pristina, Yugoslav Red Cross office? His name was Dimitrov. Do you

25 remember him?

Page 1368

1 A. May I explain something?

2 Q. Yes, of course.

3 A. I met quite a few people there that day at the Red Cross, but I

4 wouldn't know their names, I wouldn't know what I talked about, I don't

5 know who I talked to. I really don't remember any of that. I know that

6 I did talk.

7 Q. Well, if I may say so, sir, it's a fair answer. I just wanted to

8 ask you this: It seems that in those first few days of your release, as

9 you just said, you spoke to a number of people in a number of places. I

10 just want to see if I can understand and get a sense of the order in

11 which these meetings and conversations were happening. Please take it

12 from me you met this man Dimitrov in this place in Pristina. Now, he's

13 from the Red Cross. Do you think that might have been before or after

14 your meeting with state security, or the same day? Or can't you say?

15 A. I think I first went to the police on that day, and then to the

16 Red Cross.

17 Q. Right. Well, that's very helpful. Thank you. Again, I'm not

18 going to ask you the detail of your meeting with Mr. Dimitrov, whose name

19 you can't even remember, but again do you recollect now with the Red

20 Cross giving them quite a bit of detail of what had been happening to you

21 and your son Ivan? Do you remember doing that much, at least?

22 A. Yes, we talked about that.

23 Q. Again, did the person at the Red Cross you were speaking to seem

24 to know anything at all about the place you were talking to him about?

25 Did he give any indication to you at all that he'd heard about this

Page 1369

1 before?

2 A. I don't remember, but I don't think that I was given any

3 indication.

4 Q. As you sat there with him and as you had sat there with the

5 police, Mr. Bakrac, it was your firm belief, was it, that Stamen Genov

6 was dead?

7 A. Yes, that's what I thought.

8 Q. After this meeting with the Red Cross, did you ever meet with

9 them again? Did you ever meet that same man again or speak to him again

10 after this meeting as the weeks and months went by?

11 A. I don't remember having talked to them.

12 Q. Did anyone ever tell you that there was some indication that

13 Genov might not be dead, that Genov might in fact be alive? Have you

14 heard that before from anywhere, Mr. Bakrac?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You mean to tell us, sir, the first time you've heard that said

17 is when I just said it to you?

18 A. I think that would be right.

19 Q. That's all I ask you, sir. Thank you for your patience.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Khan.

21 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I have no further questions. I'm

22 grateful the witness has attended court.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

24 Mr. Guy-Smith.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do have, but a number. However, before I start

Page 1370

1 my questioning of the witness, I'm wondering whether I could do two

2 things, with the Court's indulgence and with the Office of the

3 Prosecutor's agreement. Yesterday a matter had occurred with regard to

4 Witness L-04 and I have given to each of Your Honours an agreed fact,

5 which I would like to read into the record and it was hoped that I could

6 do that before I start questioning Mr. Bakrac.

7 The second matter that I would like to engage in is entering

8 another agreed fact into the record that is directly related to Mr.

9 Bakrac's testimony and will, as a result of this agreed fact, greatly

10 shorten his testimony. So with the Court's indulgence I would like to do

11 that at this time, if that's permissible.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any difficulty.

13 MR. BLACK: There's not. Mr. Guy-Smith raised this with us

14 previously and that's fine.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Please do so, Mr. Guy-Smith.

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.

17 "With regard to the witness yesterday, the Prosecutor agrees and

18 admits that the witness L-04 was shown a photo spread of six photographs

19 by investigators from CCIU/UNMIK at some point in time between January

20 and March 2002. In the photo spread of six separate photographs, there

21 was a single photograph of Haradin Bala, an accused in this case.

22 Witness L-04 was unable to recognise any person in the series of six

23 photographs."

24 That is the first of the agreed facts.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And could I just make it clear, Mr.

Page 1371

1 Bakrac, that that has nothing to do with you or your evidence. That's an

2 entirely different issue, in case you're confused about what is

3 happening.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I now am going to read into the record an agreed

5 fact that does have something to do with Mr. Bakrac, and that is as

6 follows: "On January 8th and 9th of 2002, in that time, Mr. Bakrac was

7 shown a series of photographs. And with regard to photo spread A1, his

8 comments were as follows: 'Number 2 looks familiar, but I don't know

9 from where and I cannot connect him with this case. With regard to photo

10 spread A2, no one looks familiar. With regard to photo spread A3, no one

11 looks familiar.'"

12 I had previously presented the Court with a proposed number of

13 exhibits that included A4 and A5, however for purposes of the specific

14 examination that I was going to engage in with Mr. Bakrac after having

15 received this agreement from the Office of the Prosecutor, I don't

16 believe that we need to go any further.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: However, I trust that each of you has a copy of

19 that particular --

20 JUDGE PARKER: I have the first of those.

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: A1, A2.

22 JUDGE PARKER: I'm not aware of having a note of the second.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: You have the photographs? Excellent. The

25 agreement reached was reached but moments before Your Honours came into

Page 1378

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. And I just want to be clear. When you spoke with Shala, did you

3 look directly at him?

4 A. I always look at people I talk to. This means that I looked at

5 him, too.

6 Q. What about the person who came to talk Ivan from the basement,

7 the one you think was a superior? Did you look directly at him when you

8 spoke with him?

9 A. I spoke to him in the same way, as I usually do.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, no further questions.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bakrac, I'm able to say that's the end of your

13 questioning and your evidence. The Chamber would like to thank you for

14 coming to The Hague and for the assistance you've given us and you're

15 free now to go back to your place of living. Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, I wonder if I might just mention one

19 matter very briefly before the next witness joins us.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

21 MR. TOPOLSKI: I had raised this with Mr. Black at the end of our

22 session last night, and I was hoping that he might deal with it today.

23 Perhaps it's simply an oversight on his part or perhaps intentional, I

24 don't know.

25 Your Honours, I don't know if you have a transcript of yesterday

Page 1379

1 before you. It's page 71 of the uncorrected version that I have in front

2 of me. And I raise this hoping that it can be resolved without the

3 necessity of recalling the witness who's just left us, although I'm

4 conscious that he won't be leaving The Hague, no doubt, until his son

5 does. Your Honours, at page 71 line 2, this is Mr. Black in chief, and

6 he says this: "At the beginning of your testimony I asked you about

7 statements that you'd given previously to the ICTY and to another

8 organisation, the Humanitarian Law Centre. Do you remember that -- do

9 you remember those questions of mine?

10 "A. Yes.

11 "Q. Do you remember if in those statements you also described

12 this person that you've now told us was beating Genov?

13 "A. I think so.

14 "Q. Do you think you described him essentially the way you've

15 just described him now?

16 "A. Yes."

17 I, of course, have the advantage over the Court in that the -- I

18 don't think the Court has the Humanitarian Law Centre's statement,

19 anything other than produced to it, and therefore Your Honours haven't

20 read it. The point is that the nature of the description in that

21 statement to the Humanitarian Law Centre is significantly different and

22 briefer than the statement -- the description the witness gives which

23 Mr. Black elicited from his ICTY statement.

24 What I was hoping might be corrected was the impression that

25 could be thought to have been left by Mr. Black's questions and the

Page 1380

1 answers he got from the witness yesterday. It's not been done. I'm

2 content to leave the matter where it stands. The witness has given his

3 evidence and given his description, but when one goes over the

4 transcripts as one does, perhaps not just now but in the future, there is

5 there left hanging an assertion which we would respectfully submit is not

6 made out by a consideration of the material. I simply want to make that

7 observation so the Court is aware of it. I'm entirely in the Court's

8 hands how it would wish to handle it, if at all, hereafter.

9 JUDGE PARKER: You didn't think to pursue it in

10 cross-examination.

11 MR. TOPOLSKI: Well, no, I didn't because I was as it were

12 content with the answers the witnesses had given. Perhaps I should have

13 done. Perhaps I should have put to him the briefer one-liner, actually

14 from the previous statement. Now, if the Court thinks that's the right

15 and better and fairer way of doing it, then with my humble apologies for

16 not doing it, Mr. Bakrac could be brought back and I could do just that.

17 Otherwise an impression is left hanging. Now I'd hoped Mr. Black was

18 simply going to say something today, but he clearly felt -- thought

19 better of it or forgot. I don't know. But that's where matters are.

20 MR. KHAN: Well --

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Khan.

22 MR. KHAN: In fairness to my learned friend, Mr. Black, of course

23 you will remember that the reason why that document is not before you is

24 not because of any lack of effort on the part of my learned friend

25 sitting opposite, it was because it was objected to by at least two

Page 1381

1 members on this side of the table.

2 Your Honour, I take -- these cases of course are big enough and

3 difficult enough, and I think it is important to keep some structure to

4 them. I would accordingly oppose any trend that could be set in motion

5 of recalling witnesses when a party has had a chance to ask some relevant

6 questions. This witness gave evidence yesterday. We were given the

7 transcripts and the LiveNote overnight. We had a chance to go through

8 those transcripts overnight. And of course the whole purpose of

9 cross-examination is to test the evidence that has been given.

10 Now, Your Honour, the reason I'm objecting is for the same reason

11 that I objected for that document to go in. It's a matter of principle,

12 because if one starts being somewhat slack in the rules, if I can put it

13 like that, we can get into all kinds of difficulties down the road. And

14 I think I would object if Mr. Black had sought to recall one of his

15 witnesses to fill in an omission or an apparent omission. And I think as

16 a matter of principle I have to stand firm on this issue, even though

17 it's for my learned friend, and say that I have to take exactly the same

18 position with my learned colleague on this side of the bench -- or the

19 bar as I would for the Prosecution. And for those bases as a matter of

20 principle, I have to object.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Khan.

22 Mr. Black.

23 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. First of all, my apologies

24 to Mr. Topolski. I'm afraid I didn't grasp exactly what he was trying to

25 say to me last night. So it wasn't intentional that I didn't raise this

Page 1382

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1383

1 matter, although I think it could be left as it is. If Mr. Bakrac is

2 going to be called back in, I simply ask that happen now and there be no

3 chance that he be asked to come back at a later time.

4 MR. TOPOLSKI: I withdraw the application to recall Mr. Bakrac,

5 even if I made it. I think I'll be able to deal with this as an agreed

6 fact in due course. I see the sensitivities. I have to say in passing I

7 don't think if I put one line of that statement to the humanitarian

8 organisation to the witness I would put the whole document in, or even

9 begin to do so. But I appreciate the sensitivity.

10 JUDGE PARKER: You never know, though.

11 MR. TOPOLSKI: You never know. Age and experience has taught me

12 never to be sure about these things. Your Honour, therefore I don't

13 pursue that aspect of it. Forgive me for taking up the Court's time. It

14 remains a slight concern, but I'm sure with goodwill on both sides Mr.

15 Black and I can agree the position without the necessity of recall.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, Mr. Topolski. Can I just

17 venture, Mr. Khan, that the Chamber will look at the merits of each

18 application --

19 MR. KHAN: Of course.

20 JUDGE PARKER: There are certain circumstances when recall

21 because of oversight is appropriate.

22 MR. KHAN: Of course, Your Honour. I was simply looking at

23 matters of principle.

24 JUDGE PARKER: The occasion, for the moment, has passed.

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could I say one thing which I think is

Page 1384

1 purely administrative. With regard to this exhibit that was labelled 77

2 for identification only hasn't been tendered again into evidence. I just

3 want to make sure wherever that is on the system if it could be under

4 seal, because there are references in there that are not public. So I

5 don't know when an exhibit is marked for identification if it goes on to

6 the Internet or what happens to it.

7 JUDGE PARKER: It's not an exhibit. It's a document that has

8 been identified, is in the custody of the Chamber. And if it becomes of

9 relevance, if the document previously identified is able to be produced

10 and authenticated by its custody.

11 MR. BLACK: Thank you. I understand that --

12 JUDGE PARKER: It's not evidence.

13 MR. BLACK: I understand that and I'm not challenging or meaning

14 to have to touch on that at all. I would simply just like to say if the

15 registrar has this, perhaps he doesn't, if it's anywhere available on the

16 record that it not be public, because there are references on it that

17 should not be public. That's all.

18 JUDGE PARKER: I think the registrar read the words "under seal."

19 MR. BLACK: To the identification.

20 JUDGE PARKER: You can now rest this evening and you'll sleep

21 peacefully.

22 Are we ready for the next witness.

23 MR. BLACK: I believe we are, Your Honour. Mr. Nicholls can take

24 the next witness.

25 Could I be briefly excused? I need to attend to a matter.

Page 1385

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

2 MR. BLACK: Thank you.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry. I've lost track. When will the next

4 break be.

5 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated].

6 The answer was quarter of an hour or 20 minutes, on-air.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, Mr. Bakrac, isn't it.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Would you be kind enough to take the card that's

11 in front of you and read the affirmation.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Bakrac.

15 If you would sit down, please.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Nicholls will now ask you some questions.

18 WITNESS: IVAN BAKRAC

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examined by Mr. Nicholls:

21 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Can you hear me all right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Please remember, as I told you earlier, we're speaking in

24 different languages. Everything we say is being translated into several

25 languages, so it's important if you can to speak a little bit perhaps

Page 1386

1 more slowly than we ordinarily would and to try to speak clearly. Okay?

2 A. That's clear.

3 Q. Could you tell me your full name, please.

4 A. Ivan Bakrac.

5 Q. You were born in 1979. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell me your place of birth, please.

8 A. Zagreb, Croatia.

9 Q. What ethnicity are you, sir?

10 A. Serb.

11 Q. Now, before we go a little further, I want to talk just a little

12 bit of background. You've given one written statement to investigators

13 for the ICTY. Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That was in January of 2003.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you came here recently to The Hague, to this city, and met

18 with me, you met first with Investigator Lehtinen and Andrew Cayley. Is

19 that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then you met with me Tuesday for a brief time, and then also

22 on Wednesday?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Have you watched this trial on television at all at any time?

25 A. No.

Page 1387

1 Q. Have you watched it on the Internet at all? And I mean, watched

2 the proceedings at all on the Internet?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Have you followed this trial in the press, in newspapers or

5 magazines?

6 A. Hardly ever.

7 Q. Are you married?

8 A. [In English] No.

9 Q. Do you have any children?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Would you please tell me a little bit about your family. Who do

12 you live with?

13 A. With my parents and with my older brother.

14 Q. Are you currently employed? You do not need to tell me what your

15 job is, but -- where you're working, rather, but are you working at this

16 time?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And could you briefly outline for the Chamber and for counsel

19 present your educational background. Again, you do not need to tell me

20 the names of any schools you went to but just how far you went in school,

21 what topics you studied, and if you got -- if you received any degrees or

22 diplomas.

23 A. After high school, I completed a four-year university degree in

24 business.

25 Q. Have you ever been in the military?

Page 1388

1 A. No.

2 Q. Now, I want to go back and ask you some questions about when you

3 were living in Zagreb, in Croatia.

4 A. Very well.

5 Q. In 19 -- well, could you tell me when your family left Croatia,

6 what year.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer for

8 the interpreters. Thank you.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please repeat that last answer. It

10 wasn't heard properly.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.

12 MR. NICHOLLS:

13 Q. And very briefly, can you tell us why your family left Croatia

14 that year.

15 A. Because of our ethnicity. Many Serb families left Croatia

16 because of their Serb ethnicity.

17 Q. And did your whole family leave at once or -- did you all go

18 together or did you go separately?

19 A. Separately. First my older brother and I, and then our parents

20 came.

21 Q. And where did you go from Zagreb, Croatia.

22 A. To Belgrade.

23 Q. How long did your family spend in Belgrade?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer

25 again. Thank you.

Page 1389

1 MR. NICHOLLS:

2 Q. Sir, we're recording everything and maintaining a transcript.

3 Sometimes it doesn't always get picked up. So I'd ask you wait a moment

4 after I finish and then please repeat your answer, if you could. The

5 question was, if I remember: How long did your family spend in Belgrade?

6 A. A year.

7 Q. And can you describe very briefly what it was like that year,

8 what kind of work your father did. If you can just tell us what it was

9 like that year, what the family spent its time doing.

10 A. We lived with my grandparents, my mother's parents. My father

11 worked as a waiter and my mother worked as a hairdresser.

12 Q. After that period, where did your family move to?

13 A. To Djakovica, Kosovo.

14 Q. And why was that? Why did the family move there?

15 A. My father got a job at the hotel. Since it was not easy to live

16 in Belgrade, we moved to Djakovica.

17 Q. And you were a teenager at this time. Could you describe, just

18 briefly, what your life was like in Djakovica after you moved there,

19 whether you went to school, what types of things you were interested in.

20 A. When we moved to Djakovica I was very young. It was a time when

21 you go to elementary school and then to high school. And like many other

22 teenagers, I was interested in basketball, fishing, things like that.

23 Q. Were you interested in politics?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Let me move ahead a little bit now to the year 1998. Could you

Page 1390

1 describe what the atmosphere -- that's not a very good way of putting it.

2 Could you describe at that point what it was like for your family living

3 in Kosovo, in Djakovica.

4 A. Well, it was very hard because discussions have already started

5 between the Serbs living in Kosovo and the Albanians. We noticed it was

6 very hard to live that way.

7 Q. And could you tell me about your friends, your personal friends,

8 when you were living and going to school in Djakovica. What ethnicity

9 were your friends, your close friends?

10 A. There were Croats, Muslims, Serbs.

11 Q. Were you friends with Serbs as well as Croats and Muslims?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, when your family had moved to Djakovica and your father took

14 that job at the hotel, was the plan that this was going to be a permanent

15 relocation, that you would stay there, or were there any other plans that

16 the family thought about for its future?

17 A. At first our plan was to stay down there in Djakovica. Later on,

18 only my father and my mother know ...

19 Q. I'm not sure if you finished your answer, sir. Only your father

20 and your mother knew what?

21 A. Well, they were the only ones who knew whether we would stay in

22 Djakovica or go back to Croatia or Belgrade.

23 Q. All right. Thank you.

24 Now, at the end of June 1998, if you remember, did your

25 families -- did your family have any plans that month what it was going

Page 1391

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1392

1 to do? Was there any event that a -- any steps that the family planned

2 to take?

3 A. Yes. There was plan for us to move out of Djakovica.

4 Q. Now, without telling us, because it's not relevant, exactly where

5 you were moving to, was the plan to stay within Kosovo or not?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did your family begin to move anywhere at the end of June 1998?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And could you just describe how that move was to take place, the

10 initial stages of that move.

11 A. I don't understand the question. What do you mean by initial

12 stages or initial steps?

13 Q. That was my fault. That wasn't a good question.

14 I don't want you to talk about where any final destination that

15 you planned to go to might be, but I want you to tell me if your family

16 started on a journey anywhere from Djakovica to anywhere else.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you describe that, please.

19 A. Well, since there were already major problems between the

20 Albanians and all the rest who were non-Albanian, we decided to return to

21 Serbia.

22 Q. And how were you going to get there? How were you going to

23 travel?

24 A. Well, by bus.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I know it's a couple minutes early,

Page 1393

1 but I wonder if we could break now. I'd appreciate it.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. We will resume at 5 minutes to.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

4 --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

8 Q. I'll continue now, Ivan, and let me just say again, if you feel a

9 little nervous, that's fine. Just take your time to answer the

10 questions. I don't want you to feel rushed at all. Okay?

11 Now, just before the break you told us that the plan was to go to

12 Serbia and was to go by bus from Djakovica at the end of June.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, who from your family was on the bus when it -- when you got

15 on it to start this journey?

16 A. My father, my mother, and myself.

17 Q. And as close as you remember, can you tell me where you and your

18 family were sitting on the bus when it left -- or when you boarded it in

19 Djakovica.

20 A. My father and my mother sat right in the front, behind the

21 driver. And I sat in the second row behind the driver.

22 Q. And if you remember, what route was the bus going to take? Which

23 towns was it going to go through on the way, if you know?

24 A. I'm not quite sure, but it was supposed to go via Brezice.

25 Q. Now, during this time that we're talking about, the end of June

Page 1394

1 1998, was there any problem with transportation by road in this area?

2 Were there any difficulties in getting from one place to another on the

3 roads and highways?

4 A. I don't understand your question.

5 Q. All right. Was -- were there -- well, let's just talk about the

6 journey. The journey started. Did it make any unscheduled -- were there

7 any unscheduled stops along the way?

8 A. Yes. The bus stopped en route at a garage to fix the brakes.

9 Q. And do you remember what town that was in?

10 A. I'm not sure. I think it was near Prizren, before we got into

11 the town of Prizren.

12 Q. I forgot to ask you: How full was the bus?

13 A. It was quite full. I don't know if it was completely full, but

14 it was quite full.

15 Q. What did the passengers do during this stop for repairs near

16 Prizren? And I mean, did they stay on the bus or get off the bus?

17 A. Many got off the bus in order to walk around a little bit or to

18 smoke a cigarette.

19 Q. How long was this delay?

20 A. Between 45 minutes and an hour, about an hour.

21 Q. Did you get off the bus?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And once the bus started, what happened next on the journey? Was

24 there anything else that was not planned or that sticks out in your mind?

25 A. Yes. We were stopped -- in fact, the driver stopped next to a

Page 1395

1 Serbian police officer and asked whether it was safe to go through

2 Prizren.

3 Q. And why would he ask that question?

4 A. I'm not sure, really.

5 Q. What did the policeman tell him, tell the driver, if you could

6 overhear that?

7 A. The police officer said that it was safer to go through

8 Brezovica. The road was longer, but it was safer than the one via

9 Prizren.

10 Q. Did he say why it was safer or why he recommended taking that

11 route, other than that it was just safer?

12 A. He just said that, but we all know, especially we Serbs know, why

13 he said that.

14 Q. Can you explain that, your answer, please. Why did he say that?

15 A. Well, he said that there were quite a few Albanian soldiers there

16 and that it was not safe for the Serb -- Serbs to go there and take that

17 route.

18 Q. And when the bus continued, which route did the driver take? Did

19 he take the route recommended by the Serbian police officer or a

20 different route?

21 A. No. He took a different route through Prizren and some other

22 smaller municipalities.

23 Q. You said a moment ago that your impression -- or the reasons for

24 this was that there were quite a few Albanian soldiers and that it would

25 not be safe. Along this route did you see any soldiers?

Page 1396

1 A. Yes, I did, in the bushes.

2 Q. About -- if you -- about how many soldiers did you see -- could

3 you see?

4 A. Along the road before we were stopped, just one.

5 Q. And we'll get to the stop at the moment. How do you know this

6 person you say was a soldier along the road before the stop was a

7 soldier?

8 A. Well, he wore a uniform, a cap, and he was unshaven and he

9 carried a rifle.

10 Q. Thank you. That's pretty clear. Can you just describe the

11 uniform if you remember it, what type it was.

12 A. It was a camouflage uniform.

13 Q. Now, did any people on the bus react or comment when they saw

14 that soldier?

15 A. I really don't know.

16 Q. Do you know -- well, I'll move on.

17 Was -- you talked about a stop. You said this was before the

18 stop. Tell me about the stop. Who stopped the bus?

19 A. Six soldiers.

20 Q. And can you describe - just in your own words, take your

21 time - what you remember of how this stop occurred, where the soldiers

22 were, what they did, what you saw.

23 A. After I saw this one soldier, ten minutes later, it was near a

24 mountain, six soldiers ran out on to the road before -- in front of the

25 bus and stopped it.

Page 1397

1 Q. And very briefly can you describe how these soldiers were dressed

2 and whether they were armed.

3 A. Two or three of them wore camouflage uniforms. The rest looked

4 more like civilians. Two of them had bazookas and the rest carried

5 automatic rifles.

6 Q. What did the driver do when these soldiers ran out of the bushes

7 or ran out and stopped the bus?

8 A. Before he opened the door he said that we should not be afraid,

9 that these were Albanian soldiers who were not killers like the Serb

10 soldiers.

11 Q. How did the people on the bus react at this point?

12 A. Well, some people were slightly upset. There was a bit of

13 nervousness among the people on the bus. Mixed emotions on the bus.

14 Q. Now, what happened after the driver opened the door to the bus?

15 A. Three men boarded the bus. One of them said that we should get

16 out our ID, our documents.

17 Q. And did they ask that to you personally or are you talking about

18 collectively to the whole bus? Just describe a little bit what happened,

19 what you remember.

20 A. They got on the bus and they said out loud that we should all

21 take out our documents and hold them ready in our hands and that one of

22 them would go through and check them.

23 Q. And did you take out an identification and hold it up?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What about your father?

Page 1398

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What happened when your identification and your father's

3 identification were checked by this soldier?

4 A. He first started checking the identification of my mother and

5 father because they were sitting in the front row, and he told my father

6 to get off the bus.

7 Q. Did he say why he was telling your father to get off the bus?

8 A. No, he did not.

9 Q. Did he say anything to you about -- after he looked at your ID?

10 A. No. He just looked at my ID and told me to get off the bus.

11 Q. What about your mother?

12 A. She was crying and screaming, shouting to let us -- that they

13 should let us go.

14 Q. And what did they, being the soldiers, do to your mother when she

15 was crying and screaming like that?

16 A. They pushed her away and trained a rifle on her, told her to shut

17 up.

18 Q. Did you and your father get off the bus?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did anybody else get off the bus or I should say ordered off the

21 bus? Was anybody else told to get off the bus?

22 A. Yes, two more people.

23 Q. We'll talk about them a little bit very soon, but do you know

24 what ethnicity those two people were?

25 A. I had known one of them from around the town. I could tell from

Page 1399

1 the way he was speaking that he was a Serb, and as for the other one I

2 don't know, because we didn't talk to each other.

3 Q. At this time when you were taken off the bus, what kind of

4 clothing were you wearing?

5 A. A shirt, a pair of jeans, and sneakers.

6 Q. And what about your father?

7 A. A shirt, jeans, and I think shoes.

8 Q. Was anything that you and your father were wearing similar to a

9 uniform? Could it be taken for a uniform?

10 A. No. It was just regular clothes.

11 Q. You stated earlier when I first started talking with you that

12 you'd never been in -- you'd never done any military service. Were you

13 armed that day with any kind of weapon when you were taken off the bus?

14 A. No.

15 Q. What about your father?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Was your father or you a member of any kind of army, armed group,

18 paramilitary or police force, any kind of armed organisation?

19 A. No.

20 Q. The two other people who were ordered off the bus -- let's start

21 with the first one who you said was a Serb who you'd seen around town.

22 Do you remember his name?

23 A. Yes, Genov.

24 Q. Do you remember his first name?

25 A. No, no. I really don't know his first name.

Page 1400

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1401

1 Q. And just so it's clear, what was your relationship with him

2 before your -- before this event? I mean, can you describe whether you

3 were friends, whether he was somebody you associated with or just how you

4 knew who this person was.

5 A. Well, Djakovica is a small town and the number of non-Albanian

6 population is pretty low. We all knew each other because there was only

7 2 per cent -- 2 per cent of the population was not Albanian.

8 Q. And after you were ordered off the bus, the four of you, what

9 happened with the bus?

10 A. The driver got off -- in fact, he returned to the bus because he

11 had gotten off when we did, and they told him to continue, to go on.

12 Q. Now, at this point had anybody told you why this was happening to

13 you and your father?

14 A. No. We didn't know why.

15 Q. And what were the soldiers doing with you after the bus left?

16 A. They lined us up against a wall and trained their rifles on us,

17 on our backs.

18 Q. And did you speak to your father at all at this time?

19 A. Well, I was frightened. I thought they would kill us, so I just

20 told him I loved him.

21 Q. Now, the soldiers who you saw there, do you remember if they had

22 any kind of insignia or badges or patches or anything like that on their

23 uniforms?

24 A. Yes, on their berets and some of them on their shoulders or on

25 their chests they wore the insignia of their army.

Page 1402

1 Q. What was that army called, if you remember?

2 A. Well, the Kosovo Liberation Army.

3 Q. Now, what happened next? Did you or your father speak with any

4 of these soldiers?

5 A. Well, since after they had taken away two other -- the two other

6 men in an unknown direction, one of the soldiers asked us who we were and

7 what we were doing there, and my father said that we used to live in

8 Djakovica and that now we were moving out of Djakovica because that was

9 not a good place to live.

10 Q. What language did this conversation take place in?

11 A. At first in Serbian. And after he asked my father where we were

12 from and when my father said that he was from -- born in Slovenia and I

13 was born in Zagreb, then the conversation continued in Slovenian.

14 Q. Let me go back a little bit. You said that the two other men

15 were taken away in an unknown direction. Can you tell me, just for the

16 record, which two men are you talking about?

17 A. Mr. Genov and another Serb.

18 Q. How were they taken away? What kind of vehicle?

19 A. It was a Golf, a Volkswagen Golf. It was dark blue.

20 Q. Do you remember, if you remember, what the registration plates

21 were on that Golf, what country it was registered?

22 A. I don't recall the number, but it had Swiss licence plates.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you. We're just going to go through this step by

24 step. What happened next? How long were you sitting there with your

25 father -- your father talking to this soldier? What happened after that?

Page 1403

1 A. Well, we were sitting there between half an hour and an hour, I'm

2 not sure. We sat there with our heads bent until the Golf car returned

3 to pick us up.

4 Q. Then what happened? What happened after the Golf came back to

5 pick you up?

6 A. They put us in the car, in the back, but some black bandannas

7 over our head and eyes and drove us over a road that led through a

8 forest.

9 Q. And how long was this journey? How long before you get out of

10 the car?

11 A. I really don't know. Perhaps an hour. I was very scared and I

12 couldn't tell.

13 Q. That's fine. Do you know which town you were in when this stop

14 happened? Do you remember or did you know at the time?

15 A. No. I really didn't know.

16 Q. All right. Please tell me what happened after the car stopped

17 and you were taken out of the car. Where were you taken? What happened

18 next?

19 A. The car was parked in a village in front of a building that

20 looked like a school. We were taken into one of the classrooms. And on

21 the wall, to the side, I saw this third man who was with us. He was

22 banging his head against the wall. His head was all covered in blood,

23 and I think they had ordered him to do that.

24 Q. Now, you remember when you met with the ICTY investigator and you

25 gave your statement in 2003 he showed you some photos and you picked out

Page 1404

1 some people you remembered?

2 A. Do you mean those who were in prison, detained, or members of the

3 military?

4 Q. I'm speaking now about whether you were shown pictures of people

5 who were detained and that you remembered. Do you remember being shown

6 those photos?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you remember that since I've met you that I showed you those

9 same photos again. Isn't that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to now show the witness --

12 Q. Witness, this should on your screen. I hope it does. And let me

13 also -- let me know if you have any problems with that -- seeing that

14 clearly and I can give you a hard copy.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: For the record, this is from P54, U003-2165.

16 Q. Do you recognise the man in that picture?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who is he?

19 A. Genov.

20 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to show you another photo. P --

21 JUDGE PARKER: Isn't that under seal.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: This one is not, Your Honour, this is one of the

23 open ones. I'm sorry, I should have made that clear. I will show some

24 photos from this exhibit which are under seal, however the photos I'm

25 showing are not.

Page 1405

1 Q. The next one I'd like to show you, Witness, to see if you

2 recognise this person, again P54, U003-2164. Do you recognise that man,

3 sir?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember his name?

6 A. Yes, I was told his name later -- in fact, I know just his last

7 name which is Cuk. I don't know his first name.

8 Q. All right. Did you see Cuk in the school, the one which you're

9 telling us about which you've just arrived at?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now -- again, you started to tell us, but what was he doing when

12 you saw him in the school?

13 A. He was sitting on the floor banging his head against the wall.

14 Q. And how long did this go on for?

15 A. For a long time. I think it may have been an hour, almost an

16 hour.

17 Q. Were there any guards in or around this schoolroom? Could you

18 tell me where they were.

19 A. I really don't know how many of them were [as interpreted].

20 There were one or two soldiers inside the school, and outside of the

21 school there were more of them, maybe about ten.

22 Q. What did you and your father do when you came into this school?

23 A. We sat in the last row of desks and we just kept quiet.

24 Q. Who else was sitting in that schoolroom, in that room?

25 A. Mr. Genov.

Page 1406

1 Q. What was he doing at this point?

2 A. He also sat there in the back.

3 Q. Now -- again, at this point when you're brought into the school,

4 have any of those soldiers or guards told you why you're being taken to

5 this school or how long you're going to be there?

6 A. No. They didn't tell us anything. They just told us to sit

7 there and be quiet.

8 Q. I should have asked you this earlier. About what time of day is

9 it now that you're at this school?

10 A. I'm not quite sure what the time was, but it was early in the

11 day.

12 Q. How long did you spend in the school? How long were you held

13 there, you and your father and the other man?

14 A. Well, around four or five hours. It was late at night when they

15 took us away from there.

16 Q. Were you asked -- were you and your father asked any questions

17 while you were there in the school by the soldiers?

18 A. The basic questions. Who we were, what we were doing in Kosovo.

19 Q. Did you speak to these soldiers as well or did your father speak,

20 both of you? Can you explain, please.

21 A. Well, it was mainly my father who was talking to them because the

22 soldier who guarded them -- who guarded us told them that my father was a

23 Slovene and that we were Croats. And then they asked us what we were

24 doing in Kosovo and where we were going on that bus.

25 Q. And what did your father say about where you were going and what

Page 1407

1 you were going to do?

2 A. He said that we were moving out of Kosovo, that we were going

3 back to Belgrade in order to move out to a third country.

4 Q. And what happened to Genov? What did you see happen to him in

5 that schoolroom?

6 A. Well, the mistreatment started perhaps after an hour. Whoever

7 went by him hit him, and sometimes they would take him out of the

8 classroom and beat him in the hall of the school.

9 Q. Did you see him being -- Genov being beaten in the hall or hear

10 it? Can you describe how you knew he was being beaten out in the

11 hallway?

12 A. Well, we heard the blows and we heard him screaming from the

13 pain, begging them to stop.

14 Q. And how long did this last?

15 A. Well, they beat him from the moment when they brought us to the

16 school until they took us away further, although with interruptions.

17 Q. Did Genov speak to your father at all while he was in the school?

18 A. Yes, he did. He asked him at one point whether my father would

19 hide his military ID because he was afraid that they would find it.

20 Q. What did your father say?

21 A. He said that he didn't dare do it, that he was with his son, but

22 that if he wanted to he could go out in front of the house in the toilet

23 and throw it into the toilet.

24 Q. When you say that he wanted to -- he could go out in the front of

25 the house and throw the ID away, he meaning Genov could do it or he

Page 1408

1 meaning your father could do it? Just to be clear.

2 A. He meant Genov because they did let us go out to the toilet, so

3 my father recommended that to Genov, that he, Genov, go out himself to

4 the toilet and throw the ID into the toilet.

5 Q. Now, do you know whether these soldiers actually found Genov's ID

6 or whether they didn't?

7 A. They did. After several hours of beating, I believe that due to

8 the beating the ID fell out of his pocket or they found it in his pocket.

9 Q. And then what happened?

10 A. They stopped beating him. They said something in Albanian and

11 then a soldier came to my father, an older soldier went to my father and

12 asked him, Is this a police ID?

13 Q. What did your father say?

14 A. Well, since he didn't have his glasses and the picture was black

15 and white, my father said, It looks like it.

16 Q. Then what happened? What happened to Genov after that?

17 A. They went on beating him with automatic rifles, sharp objects.

18 Q. And how did that end? At some point how did they -- when did

19 they stop beating him?

20 A. When he passed out and when it looked as if their beating had

21 killed him.

22 Q. How did you feel when you saw this beating of Genov?

23 A. Well, I was frightened. I was 18 years old. I didn't know what

24 would happen to me and my father.

25 Q. Thank you. I'm now going to ask you to tell us what happened

Page 1409

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1410

1 next and tell me how you came to leave the school and where you went.

2 Let me just say, if you want to take a short break, I'm sure you

3 could ask and the Court would understand. So just let me know at any --

4 A. Yes. No, there is no need for that.

5 Q. Okay. Then tell me, please, how you and your father ended up

6 leaving this schoolroom.

7 A. It was already nighttime and a combi van parked there and they

8 said that they would drive us somewhere else, to a different locality.

9 Q. You've -- I'm sorry, I should have asked you one other question.

10 You've told us what you saw and what you heard in the schoolroom. Were

11 you and your -- or your father physically mistreated?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, I'm sorry I interrupted you. The combi van came

14 up. Did you get into the van?

15 A. Well, first they told us to get up and then they took us to the

16 trucks and they put sacks over our heads and tied them at our waists.

17 Q. And when you say "us," are you talking about the four people who

18 were taken off the bus, the same group?

19 A. Yes. The three of us. They carried Genov into the van.

20 Q. Were you told where you were being taken?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were you told how long it was going to be before you could be

23 free again, see your mother again?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How long, as far as you can remember, did this trip last when you

Page 1411

1 were put in the combi van?

2 A. I'm not sure. Perhaps between 45 minutes and an hour.

3 Q. If you remember, could you tell whether -- what kind of roads you

4 were driving over, whether they were paved or dirt, or whether you were

5 on a road at all?

6 A. Well, I really don't know. I know that it was a bumpy road like

7 a village road through the woods.

8 Q. And to the final destination, and we'll get to that later, where

9 you are allowed to get out of the van, were there any stops along the

10 way?

11 A. There were stops every few minutes because of some kind of

12 checks.

13 Q. What happened at those stops as far as you could tell? I realise

14 you had a sack over your head, but what was your impression of what was

15 happening at those stops?

16 A. Well, I'm not quite sure what they were saying, but it sounded

17 like some kind of greeting and some kind of check, some kind of control.

18 Q. I'm sorry. I've neglected to ask you one question. I'm sorry, I

19 have to ask you again about what happened to Genov in the school. While

20 he was being beaten by these soldiers, do you remember whether they said

21 anything to him or asked him any questions?

22 A. I'm not sure. I can't remember.

23 Q. Okay. Now, at the end of this ride in the car, what happens?

24 Can you tell me when eventually the hood is taken off and you're able to

25 see again.

Page 1412

1 A. Well, after the drive they stopped the vehicle and they took the

2 sack off my head and I saw a big brown fence and gate.

3 Q. And at that point did you have any idea where you were? What

4 village, or what place you were in?

5 A. No.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to now show the witness I think it's from

7 P6, U008-3680. It's labelled A8.

8 Q. Just take a moment and look at that picture. I'll give you a

9 hard copy because on my screen it's not very clear. Can you tell me what

10 you see in that picture, what's depicted there.

11 A. The inside of the gate and a village house.

12 Q. And I showed you that photo here when you met me a couple days

13 ago. Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What happened after the combi pulled in -- well -- pulled in

16 through this gate?

17 A. Well, it parked in front of the door. Then the truck door opened

18 and they got us off the truck.

19 Q. And who got off? Who was -- who got off?

20 A. All who were inside; their soldiers, my father, I. They carried

21 Genov and there was the fourth man.

22 Q. And the fourth man is the one you identified as Cuk. Is that

23 right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then where did you go? What happened next?