050124ED

Page 2237

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And at times it -- we will need to go into what's called private

3 session, when we are going to discuss details that might reveal your

4 identity. I will warn you and explain to you when we do that. Do you

5 understand?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Sir, with the assistance of the usher I'm going to show you a

8 paper, and I would ask you to look at that paper and please do not read

9 it out but can you tell me is that your name that appears on the paper?

10 A. Yes, it is my name.

11 MR. WHITING: If the usher could show that paper to Defence

12 counsel.

13 And if that could be exhibited and put under seal, please.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, that will be exhibited.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P96, under seal.

16 MR. WHITING:

17 Q. Witness, for the purpose of today's proceedings or your testimony

18 in court, you will be referred to as -- by your pseudonym L-96, or else

19 just "Witness."

20 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if we could go into private session,

21 please.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2238

11 Page 2238 redacted. Private session.

Page 2239

11 Page 2239 redacted. Private session.

Page 2240

11 Page 2240 redacted. Private session.

Page 2241

1 [Open session]

2 MR. WHITING:

3 Q. Witness, we're now in open session, and I'll remind you that you

4 still have -- your face is still protected and your voice is still

5 protected. Do you understand?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'll just remind you, please, not to use your name and not to

8 refer to the name of your village even though we will be -- I will be

9 asking you a few questions about it. Do you understand?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. We're still talking about 1997 and 1998. Did you support a

12 political party in Kosovo at that time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Which party?

15 A. At that time the party that covered most of Kosovo was the LDK.

16 Q. How long had you been a supporter of the LDK?

17 A. From the beginning -- beginning of its existence, from 1989 to

18 1998 until the last elections at that time, we voted for this party, we

19 voted for its president, and we supported its regulations.

20 Q. Who was the leader of the LDK?

21 A. The leader of the LDK was the now-president of Kosovo, Ibrahim

22 Rugova.

23 Q. Did you talk to other people in your village about the LDK?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are you able to tell us in 1998 -- in the first half of 1998, are

Page 2242

1 you able to tell us approximately how many people in your village

2 supported the LDK?

3 A. At that time in 1998, 75 per cent of the village supported the

4 LDK. Maybe it was even a bigger figure, but I'm sure that it was at

5 least 75 per cent.

6 Q. Witness, did there come a time when you heard about the KLA?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you remember when that was?

9 A. It was in the beginning of 1998 when we all heard about the KLA.

10 Q. Was there an event that caused you to hear about the KLA?

11 A. Yes. At that time the event with the Jashari family took place

12 in Drenica, in Prekaz.

13 Q. Do you remember approximately when that was?

14 A. As far as I remember, it was just after the new year, maybe it

15 was February or March.

16 Q. Witness, during 1998 did you read any Albanian newspapers?

17 A. Yes. During that time I read the press.

18 Q. Do you remember which newspapers you read?

19 A. At that time there were two official newspapers, daily

20 newspapers, in Kosovo.

21 Q. And what were they called?

22 A. One was called Koha Ditore, and it exists even today, and at that

23 time there was another newspaper called Bujku which ceased to exist.

24 Q. From what you could tell and what you remember, was either

25 newspaper more supportive of the KLA?

Page 2243

1 A. Yes. Koha Ditore was a newspaper that published KLA articles,

2 supported the KLA; while Bujku it was not against the KLA but did not

3 write the -- in the exactly same way as Koha Ditore.

4 Q. And was Bujku more supportive of the LDK or no?

5 A. Bujku supported LDK.

6 Q. Did you ever read announcements from the KLA in either of those

7 newspapers during 1998?

8 A. Yes. There were many times when I read such announcements in

9 Koha Ditore. In general I read about the KLA, about the events in

10 Drenica, about Prekaz, Malisheve, about the territories freed by the KLA.

11 So I read all this stuff in Koha Ditore.

12 Q. These announcements, how did you know they were KLA

13 announcements?

14 A. In newspapers it would read that it was an article from the KLA

15 headquarters or that this was an information that was passed by the KLA

16 or given by the KLA.

17 Q. Did you believe that these announcements in fact came from the

18 KLA headquarters?

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were supposed to believe.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Would you pause for a moment.

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would object to the grounds of relevance as to

23 whether or not he believed these announcements came from that particular

24 place.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

Page 2244

1 Mr. Whiting, any submission?

2 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think whether these communiques

3 actually came from the KLA is relevant and it is relevant whether people

4 who lived in Kosovo at the time believed they came from the KLA based on

5 what they read and what they were seeing.

6 JUDGE PARKER: So you are wanting to ask one resident of Kosovo

7 at the time whether or not he believed. Is that it?

8 MR. WHITING: That's correct, Your Honour. Your Honour, it can

9 be given whatever weight --

10 JUDGE PARKER: I think you would be better to leave that

11 question, Mr. Nicholls -- Mr. Whiting, I beg your pardon.

12 MR. WHITING:

13 Q. Witness, focusing on the area around your village - and again,

14 we're not going to mention your village, the name of your village - did

15 you become aware at any time of the KLA being present in that area,

16 around your village?

17 A. Yes. It was clear that except for those territories liberated by

18 the KLA that were mentioned in the newspapers, there were also

19 territories around my village. The location was called Rance. And at

20 that time it was called a KLA point. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 Q. Do you remember when you first heard about a KLA point at Rance?

23 A. Yes, I remember. And to put it simply, I just heard about this

24 point.

25 Q. Can you tell us how you heard about this point.

Page 2245

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 2246

1 A. In the end of April or beginning of May, around this time, KLA

2 members in the village would be visible or would go around only during

3 nighttime. And in the village at the time, it was said that the KLA

4 point in Rance was opened.

5 Q. So your testimony is that you discussed this with other people in

6 your village and it was known that there was a KLA point in Rance?

7 A. Yes. This was discussed everywhere in the village, in the centre

8 of the village, in shops. At that time there was nothing else to be

9 discussed, only the war was discussed, the territories liberated by the

10 KLA, some massacres that were committed by the Serbs, and so on. These

11 were the things that were being discussed.

12 Q. And you said that the KLA would go into villages during the

13 nighttime. Did they come into your village during the night?

14 A. Yes. In our village they would move around at nighttime.

15 Q. Did you see that?

16 A. One time -- actually, I personally saw them at least two times.

17 And one time I saw them in the village shop. I saw persons in uniforms,

18 and out of those three I recognised one.

19 Q. Do you remember when that was?

20 A. This was in late April or beginning of May. I cannot tell the

21 exact period of time.

22 Q. At this time period, did you hear about a commander of the KLA

23 point in Rance?

24 A. Yes. At this time we heard that the leader of the Rance point

25 was Isak Musliu.

Page 2266

1 A. Yes. That day when (redacted) came from Krajmirovce and we learned

2 about what had happened, I insisted that -- I wanted to go that day to

3 Krajmirovce with (redacted) did not want to go that day. He

4 said, Let's wait until tomorrow. The next day came. Myself and (redacted)

5 (redacted), we went the next day to the Krajmirovce headquarters to look for

6 Commander Luan.

7 Q. Witness, did you see Commander Luani?

8 A. No, never.

9 Q. Did you go more than once to the headquarters?

10 A. Oh, yes, many times at -- I've been at the headquarters where (redacted)

11 (redacted) had left the person we're talking about.

12 Q. And did you ever -- were you ever able to meet with Commander

13 Luani?

14 A. No, never. We saw many armed people, KLA people. We met the

15 person who lived in that house, so the owner of the house where the

16 headquarters was based. We looked for him in Krajmirovce entirely, but

17 we did not meet him, we were not able to meet him. We were told, He is

18 not here; he'll come later. He is in the front line. This is what we

19 were told.

20 Q. Sir, you started to name some village -- other villages where you

21 went looking. What other villages did you go looking?

22 A. Yes, Krajmirovce, we were told there that you have to get to

23 Petrastica. There's another point, a KLA point, there and the

24 spokesperson is there.

25 Q. Excuse me, Witness. Did you meet somebody in Petrastica?

Page 2267

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 2268

1 A. Yes. There -- he was called the deputy, Commander Luani's

2 deputy. And his name was Elez.

3 Q. Do you remember his family name?

4 A. No, I can't remember his surname, but I have seen that person

5 after the war wearing a TMK uniform in Kosovo.

6 Q. Witness, in your searchings did you go elsewhere besides -- did

7 you go to any other villages besides Krajmirovce, Petrastica, and

8 Carraleve?

9 A. Yes, we went to Zborce, Sedlare, Kishna Reka. In these areas, I

10 looked for the person.

11 Q. And did you make inquiries to some of the KLA soldiers that you

12 met?

13 A. Of course, we met many KLA people. We asked in different ways

14 whether we had to do something or meet a condition or do something and

15 why he was taken from them.

16 Q. Did you -- did you learn from somebody who the overall commander

17 of this area was in the KLA? And I don't want you to tell me the person,

18 just yes or no if you learned who the overall commander was.

19 A. Yes, of course. For two weeks I went every day to the war areas,

20 war zones, and in the end we learned who the commander was that could

21 (redacted)

22 Q. Okay. I'm going to first ask you what you learned and then ask

23 you how you learned it. First, who did you learn was the commander in

24 the area?

25 A. One day a person came to my house, a person from my village. And

Page 2269

1 this person, he has a name and surname of course, he asked me where had I

2 been and how much did I know (redacted), who had taken him, and so

3 on. And I told him that we only were looking for Luan and only Luan

4 could tell us. This person - I know his name - told me that he had been

5 for three days in the war zone as a civilian, not in uniform, KLA

6 uniform. And he told me that you have to look for Commander Celiku

7 because he can (redacted). This he told me in the yard of my

8 own house. These were his words. It was at the time when I was looking

9 for (redacted)

10 MR. WHITING: We're going to go into private session in a moment

11 and I'll come back to this subject.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Before you do, there have been three uses of the

13 word.

14 MR. WHITING: Yes, I was going to --

15 JUDGE PARKER: Is that something that really is a concern?

16 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour. I would ask that there be a

17 redaction.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It should be redacted.

19 MR. WHITING:

20 Q. Witness, as I said, I'll come back to this subject in a moment

21 when we go back into private session. Before I do, during this time,

22 we're talking in July of 1998, did you hear of any other people being

23 kidnapped by the KLA in your area?

24 A. Yes, I had heard about the kidnapping of other people.

25 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please, Your

Page 2280

1 [Open session]

2 MR. WHITING:

3 Q. Witness, we're now in open session. I'm going to move to another

4 topic. And this topic is about your village and we'll talk about it

5 without naming your village. Do you understand? You have to say yes or

6 no.

7 A. Yes, yes, I understand.

8 Q. Thank you. After this interview that we were just talking about,

9 did there come a time that there was a meeting in your village?

10 A. Yes. After this a person who was authorised by the LDK in the

11 village, he had to go to every door in the village and inform about a

12 meeting which was to be held in the village school at 10.00 p.m. with

13 members of the KLA. The meeting was organised by LDK members. So my

14 family was informed like other families were about this meeting --

15 Q. Witness, let me interrupt you for a moment. Were you informed

16 what the purpose of the meeting was? You said it was a meeting organised

17 by the LDK and that it would be with the KLA. What was the purpose of

18 the meeting?

19 A. Until the moment we arrived at the school, we were not familiar

20 with the subjects that were to be treated during this meeting.

21 Q. You went to the meeting?

22 A. Yes, I personally took part in this meeting.

23 Q. And did you then learn the purpose of the meeting?

24 A. Yes. There I learned about the purpose of the meeting.

25 Q. What did you learn?

Page 2281

1 A. The meeting was presided by (redacted), a member of the LDK.

2 He explained to the people present that on that evening based on the

3 votes of those present, representatives that would represent the KLA

4 would be elected. He said that he would propose the candidate and that

5 we had to vote by raising our hands.

6 Q. Witness, I'm going to interrupt you there. You said that people

7 were going to be selected who would represent the KLA. Can you explain

8 what you mean by that?

9 A. With this I want to say and what I understood was that there will

10 be people selected from every neighbourhood and that would represent the

11 KLA, and that the village was not under a full control of the KLA.

12 Q. Was it your understanding that these people who would be elected

13 would command the KLA in some way?

14 A. Not commanding directly, but they would be in those structures

15 that were comprised in Rance point.

16 Q. So they would represent your village in Rance?

17 A. That's how it was.

18 Q. Did the election of these representatives begin at the meeting?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And did something happen at the meeting?

21 A. In the end when the representatives were elected, two armed

22 persons entered. They were wearing KLA uniforms and Kalashnikovs, and

23 they addressed those present by saying, Now the war has begun. We are

24 those who are going to command here. We are those who are going to

25 defend you. And simply, they left, they went outside. The person

Page 2289

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 2290

1 Q. Can you tell us where on your body you were hit with the rifle

2 butts?

3 A. We were hit on this part of the back, in the upper part of the

4 back, with rifle butts. My friend who was with me, he had problems in

5 breathing. And when they would see that I was looking secretly which

6 direction we were taking, then they would hit me.

7 Q. You testified that you're going in the direction of Rance. Did

8 you end up, if you know, in Rance?

9 A. We arrived at Rance. We stopped the vehicle there. Amongst

10 themselves they said that they would stay there for 15 to 20 minutes.

11 The two -- the first two soldiers left the vehicle while the three others

12 remained in the same position. After this time the vehicle set off

13 again, and the road then from Carraleve to reach the asphalt road, you

14 have to go downwards. I knew this area very well from before.

15 Q. And did you reach this asphalt road?

16 A. Shortly we arrived on the asphalt road that connects Shtime with

17 Cafa Dulec [as interpreted], Prizren.

18 Q. And what happened next?

19 A. Then we returned to Shtime direction for a kilometre. And to the

20 limits, how much I could see - because you can feel actually when the car

21 leaves the asphalt - we took another direction. I can say I know when we

22 were on the road to Petrastica. I could see for a while, while we were

23 on the road to Krajmirovce, Sedlare, and up to Nekovce and Kishna Reka.

24 In Kishna Reka we left -- abandoned that road and took a mountain road.

25 And from there on, I cannot say that I knew which direction we were going

Page 2291

1 to because it was a mountain area.

2 Q. What's the next thing that happened?

3 A. After some time as we passed Kishna Reka, we arrived in a village

4 and for that moment I have no idea where we were, but I knew that the

5 other asphalt road that links with Arlat crossroads, I knew that we

6 hadn't arrived at a crossroads, because you can feel when you're on a

7 mountain road and when you're on an asphalt road.

8 Q. Witness, this asphalt road -- I'm sorry to interrupt you, this

9 asphalt road that links to the Arlat crossroads, can you tell us what two

10 -- what cities this connects? Describe for us where this asphalt road

11 is.

12 A. After Kishna Reka, when we took the mountain road, I did not know

13 exactly where we were. But at that time I was thinking that we couldn't

14 have reached an asphalt road.

15 Q. But you made a reference to the asphalt road that links with the

16 Arlat crossroads. Can you tell us what road this is?

17 A. This is a road that links Pristina, Peja, Malisheve, and

18 Orahovac.

19 Q. From Rance how long had you been in the car?

20 A. About an hour. I can't say exactly. It could be even less than

21 an hour. The road was not in a very good condition, so it might even be

22 more than one hour, but around an hour.

23 MR. WHITING: If the Exhibit P97 could be placed before the

24 witness on the ELMO, please.

25 JUDGE PARKER: We'll need to go into private session.

Page 2302

1 this is it.

2 Q. Was there any furniture in the room?

3 A. No. There was no furniture in the room except for the tap.

4 There was a carpet and there was some sponge mattresses.

5 Q. How long were you in that room?

6 A. As far as I can remember, I spent three days and three nights in

7 this room.

8 Q. How did you get food?

9 A. About noon. There wasn't a designated time when we received

10 food. The food was brought to us by a person named Shala and by another

11 person. His pseudonym was Murriz and we were familiar with his pseudonym

12 because Shala would call on him several times during the week. This was

13 basically a meal that was left by someone else. It was basically

14 leftovers from others.

15 Q. And what was it that you were given to eat?

16 A. What I mentioned, pasta, beans, water. There was enough water

17 because a tap was in the room.

18 Q. And the person you've referred to as Shala, did you hear people

19 using that name with him, calling him by the name Shala?

20 A. Yes. All those who were there, all those persons who were there

21 called him Shala. And even us, when we needed him, when we needed to ask

22 him for something, we would call him Shala.

23 Q. And this person that you could call Shala who brought you food,

24 is this the same person who beat you on that first night?

25 A. Yes. This is a person who beat us, who grabbed us by the ear,

Page 2303

1 and led us to the staircase. This is a person who ordered (redacted)

2 to stand up. This is the person who seized my documents, my wallet, my

3 watch. This is the same person.

4 Q. When you needed to use the toilet, what did you do?

5 A. Well, there was no toilet in that room. We had to call Shala or

6 Murrizi, the other person with the name Murrizi. But most of that time

7 Shala was there so we had to ask him for permission to use the toilet.

8 He would order someone to escort us from that room to the toilet. So

9 someone with a Kalashnikov would follow -- escort us to the toilet. They

10 would stand about one metre to one and a half behind us; they would wait

11 for us in front of the toilet. And then they would take us back to the

12 room. They would tell us that we were not allowed to look on the left or

13 on the right. So this is how basically we used the toilet.

14 Q. I'm going to ask you about the person who escorted you when we

15 get back into private session, but can you tell us how would you get to

16 the toilet from the room you were in? Can you describe that for us?

17 A. So we would go through the door. A person with Kalashnikov would

18 stand behind us. We would go downstairs along the yard, and there was

19 the toilet.

20 Q. What did you see when you went out into the yard? What could you

21 see?

22 A. As soon as you go downstairs and get to the yard, you could see a

23 house there. It was kind of an open space. There was a balcony. On the

24 way to the toilet, you could also see a door. We could see some other

25 prisoners as we were passing by.

Page 2304

1 Q. Witness, did you -- you said when you first arrived at this place

2 you didn't know exactly where you were. Did you learn at some point

3 where you were?

4 A. Yes. The following day to -- I knew that I was in Lapusnik.

5 Q. Can you tell us how you knew that?

6 A. In order to get to the toilet, you could -- you had to go outside

7 and you could see some hills behind; and as I was familiar with the area,

8 I knew that they belonged to Lapusnik area.

9 Q. Now, the window in the room that you were in for three days, can

10 you describe that window?

11 A. Yes. The window was on a side where you could have a panoramic

12 scene of the nature.

13 Q. Did you have any difficulty looking out the window? Was it

14 clear?

15 A. Yes. It was a clear view but you had to stand up because it was

16 stained glass, but from the half up of the window you could see clearly.

17 Q. The translation we got was that it was -- part of it was -- that

18 it was stained glass. Was it stained glass or was it opaque glass?

19 A. It was that kind of glass you can't -- which you can't see

20 through. It's something obscure. You couldn't see anything on the

21 bottom half; it's only the upper half that was glazed with normal glass

22 and you could easily see through it.

23 Q. This man that you've referred to as Shala, how often did you see

24 Shala?

25 A. Every single day. I could see this person every single day.

Page 2305

1 Q. Did you see him more than once a day?

2 A. I have seen this person several times a day, sometimes five, six,

3 seven times a day in one single day.

4 Q. Could you describe this person, please?

5 A. Yes. This person had a black-coloured uniform. On his hand was

6 the emblem of the KLA. He had black hair. He wore a moustache, black

7 moustache. He was sort of dark-skinned. He's probably of the same

8 stature of me. He looked similar to the build that I carry. His face

9 was a bit haggard, not plump. I think he had -- he was about 45 years of

10 age, but I could easily be making a mistake here because I knew not how

11 old he was. He always carried a Kalashnikov without the butt. That's

12 how I can basically describe him.

13 Q. And his height? How tall is he?

14 A. He's probably from 175 to 180 centimetres tall. That's what I

15 can -- that's a guess. (redacted)

16 (redacted) I think he was in the range of 175 to 180, and

17 that's always a guesstimate.

18 Q. We got the translation that on his hand was the emblem of the

19 KLA. What do you mean by that?

20 A. I mean on the arm, on his black shirt he carried the KLA emblem.

21 Sometimes he had a black cap, a black beret, which always bore the KLA

22 emblem, i.e., the black eagle and the KLA letters. But in the majority

23 of cases, he did not wear a cap.

24 Q. Now, you described how this man beat you in the dark. Was he a

25 strong man?

Page 2306

1 A. He gave the impression of being -- of average strength. He did

2 not have any extraordinary strength, but he looked like a normal person.

3 But the blows were extra strong because you were not aware of the

4 direction they were coming from; you were not aware of where you were

5 going to get the next blow. And that was the difficult part of it.

6 Q. Witness, I want to draw your attention now to this first day that

7 you're in the room. Did anything happen on that first day that you were

8 in that room?

9 A. Yes, something happened in the afternoon.

10 Q. What happened?

11 A. A person came in the afternoon. It's quite strange actually

12 because we knew that person and he had a black uniform. He had a beard,

13 not very long, had a moustache. He came through the door and ordered

14 everybody to stand up. We did so. And the person who showed up on the

15 door was Isak Musliu from Racak village. The significant fact was when

16 he started asking me about my name.

17 Q. Okay, Witness, I'm going to ask you first before we get into that

18 if you could describe him, how he looked at a time.

19 A. At this time he had a black moustache, had grown a beard which

20 was not very long, probably the kind you get after going a month

21 unshaved; he had a black shirt; uniform. On the -- on it it was written

22 "PU," "policia ushtarake," military police. But the simple fact was that

23 this person was known to us.

24 Q. Did he have any weapons?

25 A. No. He had no weapons, but on the side he had a walkie-talkie,

Page 2307

1 something called in German Funk, I don't know what it's called; on the

2 other side he had a small gun, a revolver.

3 Q. And where was he holding the gun?

4 A. The walkie-talkie, the Funk, whatever it was called, was to his

5 left side, whilst the revolver was on his right side.

6 Q. But was the gun in his hand? Was it in his clothing? Was it in

7 a holster?

8 A. He had it in his belt and he was not holding it in his hand. It

9 was clearly visible. It was half -- it was into the belt, but you could

10 clearly see it. You could see the handle, you could see the mill, the

11 barrel.

12 Q. And the walkie-talkie, did you -- were you able to see the

13 walkie-talkie?

14 A. Yes, it had the Funk form, the German word, it looked old, gave

15 the impression of being used, not new. When I keep referring to the

16 shape of the Funk, I'm referring to what I used to be dealing with in my

17 -- in the western countries I was at. And I know that shape very well.

18 It looked of a Funk make. It did not seem new; it was older to the left

19 of his belt.

20 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, can we go into private session,

21 please.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2308

11 Page 2308 redacted. Private session.

Page 2309

11 Page 2309 redacted. Private session.

Page 2310

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 2311

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 2312

1 MR. WHITING:

2 Q. Witness, you've told us that on the first day Isak Musliu came

3 into the room. I want to draw your attention now to that night. Did

4 anything happen that night?

5 A. Yes. Towards 9.00 or 10.00 that evening, I can't be exact on the

6 time because I had no watch, something happened, that some people in KLA

7 uniform opened the door and brought someone who was in chains, tied in

8 chains. So, they went through the room where we were being held. There

9 were five, six, or more people. And they went through our room into a

10 door that was opposite to the main door, and they went into another room.

11 During that time we saw that that person who was in chains who had his

12 hands tied in chains was an elderly gentleman. He had -- he was wearing

13 a white shirt more or less. And he seemed -- he had been beaten to a

14 pulp. And so they took him into the other room. The door was left open,

15 and I could see that the persons who took him in beat him, kicked him,

16 stepped on him. In short, they beat him to a pulp.

17 Q. Now, Witness, you said that when he was brought into the room or

18 brought through your room, you could already -- you could tell that he

19 had already been beaten. How could you tell that?

20 A. It was quite clear that this man had had his hands tied with a

21 very long chain which was all around his body. There were two people

22 holding him on his sides. He couldn't stand on his own feet; there were

23 two other people holding him. And you could easily see that this man had

24 been completely destroyed. It was easy to see that he had been badly

25 beaten.

Page 2313

1 Q. Could you see any blood when he was brought through your room?

2 A. Yes. There were parts of his shirt [as interpreted]. You could

3 see that his face had stains. We did not basically see him being beaten

4 before, but that's what was visible. And so they went through our room

5 and into the next one, the room next door.

6 Q. And you said that there were two men that were holding him up and

7 carried him through the room. How many men in all came in, brought --

8 came through the room with this man who had been beaten?

9 A. At least five or six. I can't say there were more than that.

10 Five, six; I can't say there was a seventh.

11 Q. And how were these men dressed, could you see?

12 A. They had KLA uniforms, not the black one but the military

13 uniform, the army uniform.

14 Q. Was anything said when this witness was -- when this person who

15 had been beaten was brought into the other room? Could you hear anything

16 being said?

17 A. We heard nothing.

18 Q. Can you describe -- could you see the beating in the other room?

19 A. We were able to observe the beating as long as the door was left

20 ajar. And when they took him into the next door, the door was left open

21 and we were able to witness that, me, (redacted) who were on that

22 side of the room had a very good view of it.

23 Q. Can you describe the beating for us, please.

24 A. They were kicking him; they were stepping on him; they were

25 jumping on him. That's what I was able to see.

Page 2314

1 Q. And did they say anything while they were doing this?

2 A. I can't remember exactly whether I heard it there or somewhere

3 else, but I think I heard the word, "Do you still translate for the

4 Russian journalists?"

5 Q. What was your reaction to this -- witnessing this beating?

6 A. What can I say? What kind of reaction? It is sad to see someone

7 being treated like that, it's painful, it's difficult.

8 Q. How long did the beating last?

9 A. About half an hour, I think.

10 Q. Did you know who this person was who was being beaten?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you later learn who this person --

13 A. We learned of that on the next day.

14 Q. What did you learn the next day?

15 A. The next day Shala told us -- he said, Did you see what happened

16 to that person last night? So we were supposed to say, yes, we did see

17 that. He said, This person comes from Pristina. He's called Shaban

18 Hoti. He's a professor of the Russian language and he has come to the

19 war zones to translate for the Russian journalists. And that is all we

20 heard from Shala on the next day.

21 Q. After the beating was finished what happened? What did the

22 soldiers do who had been beating him?

23 A. The soldiers who did the beating of this person returned to our

24 room. One of them, he had a very large battery of the size that I'm

25 pointing to you here. So this person started checking every single

Page 2315

1 person one by one, using the flash that he had, and he turned to (redacted)

2 (redacted) and said, What are you up to? One of the other persons, I think

3 it was Shala, I think -- I believe so --

4 Q. Witness, I'm going to interrupt you for a moment here. Before we

5 get into that story, I'm -- would like you to look at the -- we're going

6 to have to be in private session to go into that story. Could you look,

7 please, at the computer monitor.

8 MR. WHITING: And for purposes of the record we're showing P005.

9 And also for purposes of the record, what's on the monitor is the

10 building A1 from the locations book, P006.

11 Q. Witness, could you look at that -- what's on your monitor. Can

12 you see it clearly?

13 A. Yes, I see it very clearly.

14 Q. Do you recognise that?

15 A. Yes, I know this place.

16 Q. What is this place?

17 A. This is the place where I was held a prisoner.

18 Q. Does it look the same way that it did when you were there?

19 A. There are some very minor changes, differences.

20 Q. What are they?

21 A. These spindles that you could see on these stairs were not there

22 at the time. These stairs led straightaway on to the courtyard, they

23 went into a straight line on to the courtyard. And what you see on the

24 balcony there, the spindles on the balcony were not there at the time.

25 This is what I can notice at the moment. I can see no other differences.

Page 2316

1 MR. WHITING: I'm going to ask Mr. Younis to take us inside the

2 upper floor.

3 Actually, if you could do that a little more slowly. Okay. Stop

4 here.

5 Q. Witness, we're looking at the first room on the upper -- of the

6 house. Do you recognise this room?

7 A. Yes. That is where I was kept.

8 MR. WHITING: And now if Mr. Younis could take us inside into the

9 second room. Keep going.

10 Q. And we're now in the second room on the upper floor of the house

11 for the purposes of the record, and I'm going to ask Mr. Younis to turn

12 around -- look around the room.

13 Do you recognise this room?

14 A. Yes. That is the second room. I did spend part of the time in

15 this room as well.

16 Q. Is this the room where Shaban Hoti was beaten?

17 A. Yes, Shaban Hoti was lying down in this part, the door should be

18 very close by. Yeah, that is where Shaban Hoti was lying.

19 MR. WHITING: And if you could stop there, please.

20 Q. Do you recognise that -- what's in the corner there of that room?

21 A. This cupboard here, that's where it used to be. The television

22 was not there -- there was no television at the time. I can mention also

23 some simple things, some cabling was not there at the time. But I know

24 that this cupboard on the corner is exactly where it used to be. I don't

25 think that the clock and the eagle there were there at the time. But,

Page 2317

1 yes, the cupboard was there, the door was there, all the other signs are

2 here.

3 Q. And the room we can see from looking out to this second room

4 where Shaban Hoti was beaten, that's the room where you have described

5 you were being held with the others?

6 A. Yes. This is where I was held, just before you go into the other

7 room.

8 MR. WHITING: Now, I'm going to ask the case manager to take us

9 back out of the house.

10 Q. And if you could look around the yard. Do you recognise the

11 yard?

12 A. Yes, because from here we went all the way through there to the

13 toilet here, where I'm pointing.

14 Q. You made reference to the toilet. Do you see the -- can you see

15 the toilet here?

16 A. Yes. You can't see it clearly because it's dark, but it is where

17 I'm pointing.

18 Q. Unfortunately, we can't see where you're pointing. Can you

19 describe where the toilet is in this picture.

20 MR. WHITING: And maybe I'll ask the manager to move us a little

21 bit to the left. There you go.

22 Q. Can you describe where the toilet was located?

23 A. The toilet is -- if you go here there is a door and then there's

24 a door and then there's another door and somewhere in the frontal part is

25 the toilet. It is basically between the taller, red-roofed -- red roof

Page 2318

1 and the other one. Between the two roofs.

2 Q. Okay. I'm giving you a clearer picture -- this is the image from

3 P006 for the purposes of the record. We're a little closer now and it's

4 a little clearer. Can you see the toilet here?

5 A. That's where it is. It looks dark. You can't see the door.

6 Q. Can you see if the door is open or -- there -- let's put it this

7 way: There are two doors in this image. Is it the door on the right or

8 the door on the left?

9 A. The door on the right did not used to be there, but the one

10 that's opposite, that's what used to be the door leading on to the

11 toilet.

12 Q. And can you tell us in this picture is the door open?

13 A. I can't see. Please, I mean it looks all dark to me; I can see

14 nothing else.

15 Q. We're going to try to show you a better picture of this, just to

16 be clear about this.

17 MR. WHITING: With the assistance of the usher we're going to

18 show page 7 from P006 and put it on the ELMO, please. And we have to

19 switch from Sanction to the ELMO on the computer.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the toilet where we used to

21 go for three days, escorted.

22 MR. WHITING:

23 Q. Can you put the pointer on it again.

24 A. [Witness complies]

25 Q. I'm going to ask if the usher could give you a pen and you could

Page 2319

1 put an "X" on it.

2 A. This is the toilet.

3 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'd ask that this be made an exhibit,

4 please.

5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be an exhibit.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit Number P98, under seal.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, Mr. Whiting?

8 MR. WHITING: I just have one last image to show as part of it.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Please go ahead, if you're quick.

10 MR. WHITING: It will be quick.

11 If we could switch back to Sanction, please.

12 And if the case manager could just pan right.

13 Q. Witness, this is a view from the yard. You said that you could

14 see hills and that that's how you knew that you were in Lapusnik. Are

15 these the hills that you were referring to?

16 A. Yeah, this is the view because to be able to go there to the

17 toilet you were able to take in this view. But I knew exactly that we

18 were in Lapusnik from observing these views around.

19 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, now it's a convenient time to break.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 We will adjourn now for the night.

22 I must ask you, sir, if you could return tomorrow to continue

23 your evidence. We have to stop now at this hour of night. We continue

24 tomorrow in the afternoon at 2.15. We will adjourn now.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

Page 2320

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 25th day of

3 January, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.