1 Thursday, 3 February 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, Mr. Black.

6 MR. BLACK: Good afternoon, Your Honours. We're ready with the

7 next witness. He is a protected witness. There's pseudonym, image

8 distortion, and voice distortion have been granted, so you can take that

9 into consideration when he comes into the courtroom.

10 JUDGE PARKER: This is the Witness L-10.

11 MR. BLACK: That's correct, Your Honour. And one thing, perhaps,

12 when he's coming in --

13 JUDGE PARKER: The shutters might be lowered and we can get

14 underway bringing him in. As there are protective measures including

15 voice distortion, if I can remind counsel that it's necessary to switch

16 on and off between question and answer.

17 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll do my best to remember

18 that.

19 JUDGE PARKER: And you had something else.

20 MR. BLACK: Yes, it's related to this witness. As the Defence

21 knows, during proofing this week the witness indicated that he was

22 interviewed by Serb authorities with relation the events in 1998. And

23 just so it's on the record, we have asked the Serb authorities and they

24 have no record of such an interview. And that covers the MUP, the DB and

25 the VJ, just to make that clear.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

2 MR. BLACK: To make sure I'm clear, it's not to say that it

3 didn't occur, we simply have no record of it, and I have asked. That is

4 all I wanted to let the Chamber know.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir.

7 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

8 JUDGE PARKER: Now, I'm going to ask you to make a declaration.

9 Would you like to read it or would you like me to give you the wording?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to read it.

11 I solemnly declare that I will tell the truth, the whole truth,

12 and nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Would you please sit down.

14 Yes, Mr. Black.

15 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. I would ask that we go into

16 private session.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.

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17 [Open session]

18 MR. BLACK:

19 Q. Witness, I just want to remind you, we're in public session now

20 so just try not to use your name in answering my questions. Do you

21 understand?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. This room or cellar that you were taken to, can you

24 describe that place for the Judges, please.

25 A. It had one window and one door, an iron door.

1 Q. How big was the room, do you remember?

2 A. It was about 4, 4.5 metres by 3, approximately. It looked a bit

3 elongated and a bit narrow.

4 Q. What was the floor made of?

5 A. Concrete.

6 Q. Was there anything on the floor?

7 A. No, there was nothing, with the exception of -- alongside the

8 wall it was what looked like a concrete circle or a skirting.

9 Q. And what did you sleep on while you were in this room?

10 A. On the concrete floor.

11 Q. Was anything ever brought in for you to sleep on besides that

12 concrete floor?

13 A. This happened after two or three weeks. It was when one of the

14 soldiers brought in some hay, or something that looked like hay. That

15 was the only thing we had after those few days.

16 Q. And you've mentioned a door. Was that door kept open or closed?

17 A. Closed.

18 Q. What was the temperature like in this cellar?

19 A. In the beginning it was very cold and wet, but after a few days

20 the weather improved and it became too hot. It was even difficult to

21 breathe.

22 Q. Was there a toilet in the cellar?

23 A. There was a bucket.

24 Q. And you had to use that bucket as a toilet. Is that right?

25 A. Yes, that's how it was.

1 Q. Was this bucket emptied regularly?

2 A. Yes, whenever it filled up, not before.

3 Q. Did you yourself ever empty the bucket?

4 A. Yes, twice I think, two or three times I think. I can't say

5 exactly.

6 Q. Do you remember where you took the bucket to empty it?

7 A. We took it to some kind of toilet which was outside, outdoors.

8 Q. When -- on these occasions where you went to empty the toilet,

9 did you go alone?

10 A. Yes. Alone, but Shala who was there told us, Go in that

11 direction and empty the bucket. And he pointed the gun to my head and

12 said, If you dare raise your head, I'll kill you on the spot. So I kept

13 my head down on my way there and on my way back as well.

14 Q. How often were you given food while you were in this cellar?

15 A. It's happened once, twice, a day -- I can't remember if it was

16 day or night because of the darkness, but there were occasions when we

17 were left without food for three or four days. I think the whole thing

18 was done at will.

19 Q. When food was brought, who brought it?

20 A. Shala, Murrizi, these were the two who brought the food in. They

21 were there all the time.

22 Q. Did you receive water?

23 A. Yes, a bottle was brought in sometimes. Shala always brought a

24 bottle to the door.

25 Q. While you were in this cellar, did you or any of the other

1 prisoners ever receive medical treatment? And I would just remind you,

2 we're in public session so you don't need to mention any names, please.

3 A. No -- if we're talking about a doctor, no there wasn't any.

4 Q. How long were you kept in this cellar all together?

5 A. When I was released and went home, I was told it was two months

6 because at that time I'd never known how long I'd spent in there.

7 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, if we could go into private session just

8 for one or two quick questions, please.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

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2 [Open session]

3 MR. BLACK:

4 Q. Okay, Witness, we're in public session again. Were you ever

5 allowed to leave the cellar and walk around?

6 A. No.

7 Q. When Shala or Murrizi, when they brought food, did they come

8 inside the cellar?

9 A. They came up to the door, and sometimes they brought the food in

10 and we never moved. On the majority of cases, that's what happened. And

11 this lasted as long as we were kept tied.

12 Q. Did Shala or Murrizi or anyone else ever come inside the cellar

13 for reasons other than to bring you food?

14 A. Yes. They came wearing masks. There were two people; Shala,

15 Murrizi were there. They opened the door. Shala had the keys.

16 Q. Let me interrupt you for just a minute. And I want to remind you

17 that we're in public session, so please don't use any names, but you can

18 continue. Maybe you can just tell me generally if anyone came inside the

19 cellar for reasons other than to bring you food, generally.

20 A. Yes, to mistreat us, yes. Qerqizi was the one.

21 Q. Were prisoners ever taken outside of the room? And please don't

22 mention any names, just tell me if people were ever taken outside.

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. When such people came back, were you able to tell where they had

25 been or what happened to them?

1 A. Yes, they came back badly beaten.

2 Q. Do you remember if anyone was ever taken out who did not return?

3 A. Yes, it has happened.

4 Q. Witness, if you can approximate, what's the largest number of

5 prisoners that were with you in the cellar at any one time?

6 A. I can't give an exact figure, but approximately there were up to

7 15 people, sometimes more. At the beginning, however, there were only

8 four of us.

9 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could we move into private session,

10 please.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

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8 [Open session]

9 MR. BLACK:

10 Q. Hello, Witness. I'm going to ask you some more questions now.

11 And the first question will be in public session, just so you know that.

12 Do you understand?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, before the break you were looking at some pictures and you

15 were talking about the cellar where you were held. Did you ever find out

16 where that place was?

17 A. I understood later that after my release, after they released us,

18 that we were in Lapusnik.

19 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could we now go into private session,

20 please.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

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18 [Open session]

19 MR. BLACK:

20 Q. Now, Witness, we're in public session again, which just means

21 I'll ask you not to use your own name or names of prisoners in the camp,

22 of course you can use other names.

23 You've referred on a number of occasions here today to a person

24 named Shala. What can you tell the Judges about Shala?

25 A. I can tell what he looked like.

1 Q. Please do. Tell the Judges what Shala looked like.

2 A. He had a black cap. Sometimes he used joggers, sometimes he wore

3 trousers. He always had an automatic gun. His hair had gone grey a

4 little bit. He wore a moustache. His teeth were a bit blackened. And

5 some teeth were missing in the front.

6 Q. Do you remember about how old he seemed to be?

7 A. I don't know exactly, but roughly between 40 and 50, I should

8 think. Maybe I was too young, but that's what I guess it was. But I was

9 able to recognise him.

10 Q. How tall was he?

11 A. I can say that I did not assess it, but probably 1.80 or 2 metres

12 approximately. I don't know. But I know this person. I cannot describe

13 in exact centimetres, but I can't tell how tall or how tall he was

14 exactly because I had no way of measuring him up.

15 Q. Do you know Shala's real name, his given name?

16 A. Afterwards I came to learn the exact name, his real name.

17 MR. BLACK: And perhaps, Your Honour, if we could go briefly into

18 private session for the next couple of questions.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

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1 [Open session]

2 MR. BLACK:

3 Q. Witness, have you watched any part of these proceedings here in

4 The Hague on TV? Have you seen any of that?

5 A. No. Maybe sometimes in the news bulletins, but no, otherwise no.

6 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you if you can look around the courtroom

7 here today, do you see Shala here in the courtroom?

8 A. Can you say it again? Can you ask the question again, please.

9 Can you repeat the question.

10 Q. Of course. I just -- first I want you to look around the

11 courtroom, all around the courtroom, and I want you to tell me if you can

12 see Shala here today.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you describe for me where he's sitting, please.

15 A. In the middle. He did not used to wear glasses, but he's got

16 them on today.

17 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, with that, I'd ask that the record

18 reflect that he's identified the accused Haradin Bala.

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Standing objection.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Objection noted. Yes, the record should do that.

21 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness, another name that you have mentioned in your testimony

23 is Qerqiz. Do you remember mentioning that name?

24 A. Yes, I did say that in the statement as well that this person

25 wore a mask. And I don't know how the people over there identified him,

1 but this person all the time wore a mask, Qerqizi that is.

2 Q. Can you describe him physically, in any other way?

3 A. He was stocky, not very tall.

4 Q. Do you remember how he dressed? Do you remember that?

5 A. He wore a uniform, a camouflage uniform.

6 Q. Did he carry a weapon?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What kind of weapon, if you can remember?

9 A. It was a short kind of weapon, an automatic gun, but each time he

10 came into the cellar he was always threatening us.

11 Q. I believe you said that he always wore a mask. Did you ever see

12 his face?

13 A. No, I did not see his face, but only based on that -- on that

14 name that was mentioned on the occasions when he used to talk to Shala by

15 the door.

16 Q. You say "based on that name that was mentioned," which name?

17 A. Qerqizi.

18 Q. Okay. And just based on physical attributes, if you couldn't see

19 his face how could you distinguish Qerqiz from the other soldiers or

20 people that you saw?

21 A. I probably would not be able to tell because he was wearing a

22 mask and a long time as elapsed. But the only person there who had no

23 mask was Shala. And he knows everything about what came in and out.

24 Q. Okay. But right now I need to know what you know, not what Shala

25 knows. How did you know that Qerqiz was called by that name, by

1 "Qerqiz"?

2 A. When Qerqiz used to come in or get out and -- Shala used to

3 address him as Qerqiz by the door, and they used to have a little chat

4 together. That's what I base it on.

5 Q. And do you know what Qerqiz's real name was, his given name?

6 A. Afterwards we learned that he was called Isak Musliu, but I did

7 not hear it there.

8 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, perhaps it would be prudent to go into

9 private session for the next question, please.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

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2 [Open session]

3 MR. BLACK:

4 Q. Witness, we're in public session now. While you were in this

5 cellar in Lapusnik, did anyone ever come to ask you why you were there?

6 A. Commander Celiku came twice.

7 Q. Can you please describe for the Judges -- let's start with the

8 first occasion that you can remember.

9 A. He asked me, Why have you been brought in here? I said, I don't

10 know. He said, We will look into your problem, but no reply came.

11 Q. And where was this that he asked you this? Where were you?

12 A. In the cellar.

13 Q. Do you remember how he was dressed on that occasion?

14 A. He had a camouflage uniform on. He had a little beard, not too

15 grown.

16 Q. Can you remember about how tall he was?

17 A. Under 2 metres [as interpreted], I think.

18 Q. And you said that he asked you why you'd been brought in here,

19 but I want you to try to remember as specifically as you can what it was

20 that he asked you.

21 A. Why have you been brought in here? And I said, I don't know why

22 I've been brought in here. And he said, I'll look into that problem.

23 And there was nothing else said as far as I remember. Perhaps I'm not

24 understanding the question well.

25 Q. No. That's fine. I think you're understanding me fine. Do you

1 remember if -- what time of day it was this time that you saw him?

2 A. Midday.

3 Q. Okay. And I think you mentioned that there was another occasion.

4 Can you tell us what happened on the other occasion that you saw him?

5 A. Which person have you got in mind?

6 Q. You said "Commander Celiku came twice." And I just asked you

7 about one time and I wonder if you remembered anything about the other

8 time that he came.

9 A. He asked the same questions: Why have you been brought in here?

10 And he said, You'll go home. But I was not released once again, me and

11 the other person.

12 Q. Okay.

13 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I do apologise for interjecting. I

14 thought it may be easier to do it at this juncture. I wonder if my

15 friend can perhaps clarify the answer that was given in relation to the

16 height of the commander that he says he saw. There appears to have been

17 a difference between what we have on the transcript. My understanding in

18 fact what was said is "not less than 2 metres," but perhaps that can be

19 clarified now.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 MR. BLACK:

22 Q. Go ahead, Witness. If you understood the question, it's again:

23 How tall was Commander Celiku?

24 A. Maybe I did say it, but everything that I say is approximate. I

25 did not have a tape measure to measure him, but approximately he was

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1 about 2 metres tall, again roughly speaking. I cannot take upon myself

2 responsibility of giving millimetres in here. I did not have a tape

3 measure to measure him up.

4 Q. That's quite all right. Thank you for your assistance with that.

5 At the time that you saw him, did you know who this person was, did you

6 know his name?

7 A. I did not know his name, but I learned of it afterwards on the

8 television, and they said it was Celiku.

9 They called him Celiku over there.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter interjects.

11 MR. BLACK:

12 Q. Okay. Just so I have this clear, when did you hear this name

13 "Celiku," when did you hear that name first?

14 A. I think about twice over there I heard the name mentioned. And

15 afterwards when Shala gave us a piece of paper to release us. The

16 letters wrote that they were being released by Celiku.

17 Q. We'll get to that. You say "I think about twice over there."

18 What do you mean over there?

19 A. Lapusnik.

20 Q. Okay. And do you remember who mentioned that name? Can you

21 remember that?

22 A. Shala. I think it was through a conversation with Shala.

23 Q. Can you remember what it was that he said?

24 A. I can't remember an occasion where it was used, but I know that

25 where they had been a [as interpreted] chat he used to call him Celiku

1 Celiku, and that's where I heard the name mentioned. That's where I

2 heard Celiku mentioned.

3 Q. Okay. And a few minutes ago you mentioned a time on TV. Tell

4 the Judges what happened, what you're referring to with the television.

5 A. I saw that this was the person who had been there.

6 Q. But what did you see?

7 A. I saw him on the television and I saw his real name there. And

8 based on the television, I was able to identify the person. I knew the

9 person as such, but I did not know his real name so I learned it through

10 the television.

11 Q. Okay. And you saw a person on television that you recognised.

12 Is that your testimony?

13 A. Yes. That person, yes. The person you're referring to, yes.

14 Q. And you said that you learned his real name. What was his real

15 name?

16 A. Fatmir Limaj.

17 Q. Witness, again I'm going to ask you to look around the courtroom

18 and I want you to tell me if you see Celiku, Fatmir Limaj, in the

19 courtroom today.

20 A. Yes, the one on the side in this direction.

21 Q. Which side do you mean? To the left or to the right? Can you

22 explain a little more precisely, please.

23 A. From the position where I'm standing to the right, where the pen

24 is pointing to.

25 Q. Can you see what kind of tie he's wearing? Can you describe the

1 tie he's wearing?

2 A. I can't see the tie very well because it's a fair bit of

3 distance, but I think it's striped.

4 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, on that basis I would ask that the

5 record reflect that he has identified the accused Fatmir Limaj.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I can't see very well as a

8 result of that bucket that served as a water closet, but yes, I can see

9 certain things very well.

10 MR. BLACK:

11 Q. Witness, earlier I asked you about an interview with the CCIU

12 investigators. Do you remember that? Do you remember that we talked

13 about that?

14 A. Yes, I do remember.

15 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, if we could go into private session,

16 please.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

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4 [Open session]

5 MR. BLACK:

6 Q. Witness, you've mentioned a person at the camp in Lapusnik named

7 Murrizi. Can you describe Murrizi?

8 A. I can describe that he was slim, not very tall, with a little

9 beard not too grown, and wearing black clothes.

10 Q. Do you remember any other soldiers or anyone else from Lapusnik

11 who was not a prisoner?

12 A. I don't understand. Can you ask the question again?

13 Q. Sure. You've mentioned to us Shala and Qerqiz and Murrizi,

14 people you had seen at Lapusnik. I'm just asking if you remember anyone

15 else, the name of anyone else.

16 A. And someone who brought us some hay to lay on was called Hoxha.

17 That's the one who brought us some hay to lie on. This one did not wear

18 a mask as well.

19 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I'd ask to go back into private session,

20 please.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

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22 [Open session]

23 MR. BLACK:

24 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'm sorry for the interruption. We're in

25 public session now, so just use care, don't mention your name or the

1 names of the other prisoners for a moment. Were there any soldiers with

2 you at this point when you walked single file out of this place?

3 A. Murrizi was leading and Shala came in the back at the end of the

4 line.

5 Q. Were Murrizi and Shala armed?

6 A. Shala had an automatic gun. And Murrizi also had a long rifle.

7 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I'd ask to go into private again,

8 please.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

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5 MR. BLACK:

6 Q. Witness, we're in public session again now. How long did you

7 walk?

8 A. I think about 40 minutes or one hour, approximately. Maybe a bit

9 more, but approximately.

10 Q. Did you meet anyone along the way?

11 A. When we left and on a joining road there was a tractor with

12 soldiers, but I was amongst the rear emerging into that road. But we

13 spotted a tractor there.

14 Q. And then did you keep walking after that, after you spotted the

15 tractor with soldiers?

16 A. I can't remember if the tractor went first or whether we

17 proceeded first. I can't remember, but I know that when we emerged into

18 that road it was a bit flat and we could see a tractor.

19 Q. Okay. And did you eventually come to a place where you stopped?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Where did you stop? Can you describe that place at all for us?

22 A. It was a plain and a cherry tree and a spring as well as an

23 apricot tree.

24 Q. And when you stopped near this cherry tree and apricot tree, were

25 there any soldiers there with you at that time?

1 A. Shala, Murrizi, and the third one who I didn't know was there.

2 Q. Did these three soldiers, did they have weapons?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you remember anything about what kind of weapons they had?

5 A. Shala had an automatic gun, Murrizi had a long rifle, and the

6 other person had an automatic as well, a bit shorter.

7 Q. And what happened at the cherry tree? What happened there?

8 A. We stayed there for about two hours or one hour or -- I can't say

9 the exact seconds, but we were split into two groups.

10 Q. Who split you into two groups?

11 A. Shala.

12 Q. And then what happened next?

13 A. The one half were released and the other half were, he said, to

14 be released later.

15 Q. Did -- were you given anything at this point?

16 A. A piece of paper was given to us.

17 Q. Can you remember what was written on that piece of paper?

18 A. That you are released by the order of Commander Celiku. That's

19 what the piece of paper given to us said.

20 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could we move into private session for a

21 moment?

22 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

23 [Private session]

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5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

7 MR. BLACK:

8 Q. Witness, I just would like to ask you a couple of follow-up

9 questions to the topic we were discussing before the break, your release.

10 You mentioned a piece of paper that was given to you. Do you remember

11 telling us about that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know who wrote those pieces of paper, who wrote on those?

14 A. Shala wrote it.

15 Q. Did you see him write that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And do you remember when it was that he wrote that?

18 A. Before he told us, You are free.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you. And then one other related topic. You told us

20 about what happened in Kroimire and that you were supposed to wait for

21 someone. Do you remember telling us that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And in the translation there's a reference to the word

24 "gazetari." Now, can you explain who you thought you had to wait for.

25 A. I didn't know.

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1 Q. Did you understand that you were supposed to actually wait for

2 someone who's profession was a journalist or was gazetari a nickname?

3 Could you tell?

4 A. I thought it was his pseudonym. I don't know, but they were

5 saying, We have to wait for gazetari to see what he will say.

6 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

7 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, if we could go into private session,

8 please.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

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12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Khan will now ask you some questions.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Khan:

15 Q. Witness, I represent Fatmir Limaj. Do you understand?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions. Please take your time,

18 think carefully, and answer truthfully. Do you understand that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. We say you have it totally wrong when you say that you saw Fatmir

21 Limaj at the camp. Do you understand?

22 A. What I said is true; it's not wrong. I have seen him.

23 Q. Do you think that your memory is reliable?

24 A. I know this person.

25 Q. We'll come to that in a moment. But do you think your memory is

1 reliable?

2 A. I don't have much education, but I have not made a mistake when I

3 have said that this person was there; this I know.

4 Q. These events of course took place some seven years ago. Do you

5 accept even the possibility that you may have got things wrong?

6 A. I have not made a mistake. He was there.

7 Q. I suggest that you never saw Fatmir Limaj at any camp or prison

8 or farm where people were detained. Do you understand that?

9 A. This person was there.

10 Q. Now, you say that you were interviewed by the Serbs back in 1998

11 and you can't remember whether or not you signed any document they gave

12 you. But would I be right if I said that you did not mention Celiku at

13 that interview, or can you not remember?

14 A. I did not mention Celiku because my only concern was to escape --

15 because even there they beat me. I don't know. I think I did not

16 mention his name.

17 Q. And you also told the Prosecution and you accept that in August

18 of 2001 you went to the UNMIK/CCIU and told them what you'd experienced.

19 That's correct, isn't it?

20 A. I went and told them what happened to me.

21 Q. And you spoke the truth when you told them what happened to you.

22 Isn't that right?

23 A. I tried to say the truth and tell what I remembered. This is how

24 it was.

25 Q. And your primary concern was that those people that were involved

1 in your mistreatment and that were involved in killings would be brought

2 to book; you wanted justice. Isn't that right?

3 A. I didn't know how things work in a court, but I wanted them -- to

4 tell them that this person, this relative of mine, was killed and was

5 lost.

6 Q. Witness, I'm not talking about how courts work. What I'm putting

7 to you is the reason you went to the CCIU/UNMIK is because you wanted the

8 people that you say mistreated you and killed a member of your family to

9 be brought to book, to be held accountable. Isn't that what motivated

10 you? Or did something else motivate you?

11 A. No. I wanted justice be done.

12 Q. And wanting justice to be done, you therefore told CCIU about

13 anybody that you say was involved in your mistreatment or in the killing

14 of your relative. Isn't that true?

15 A. I made some statements, but nothing came to light about the fate

16 of these relatives. And some time has passed since then.

17 Q. Witness, take your time. Think carefully about what I'm asking

18 you. I'll try again.

19 What I'm putting to you is that you were concerned what you

20 wanted is that the people that you say were involved in your mistreatment

21 and in the killing of your relative be known, brought to book, arrested,

22 and punished. Is that fair or not?

23 A. Either to be arrested or to be found, and I wanted them to be

24 found. I asked them to find these persons.

25 Q. Of course. I understand that. That's very natural.

1 Now, when you spoke to Mr. Black the other day, did you have a chance to

2 read the statement you gave to the CCIU in August of 2001?

3 A. I don't understand your question. Can you repeat it, please?

4 Q. Before giving evidence today, particularly when you met Mr.

5 Black, the lawyer that was asking you questions, did you -- were you

6 given an opportunity to read the statement you gave to the ICTY in 2002

7 as well as the statement you gave to UNMIK in 2001?

8 A. I -- what you are saying about the statement I gave to CCIU,

9 maybe I have forgotten some things. I know that there were some

10 additions made. I don't remember many things.

11 Q. Witness, my fault I'm sure. Let me try again. Before coming

12 into court today, since your arrival here in The Hague, have you read the

13 statement that you gave to CCIU in August 2001, yes or no?

14 A. What person are you saying -- again, I don't get you. I'm sorry

15 I don't understand.

16 Q. I did tell you that if you don't understand something, let me

17 know. So I'll try again. You gave a statement to the ICTY in November

18 2002. Do you remember giving a statement to the Prosecution of this

19 Tribunal?

20 A. Yes. Yes, I gave a statement to the Tribunal.

21 Q. And you've also said that you gave a statement to CCIU in August

22 of 2001, that's CCIU/UNMIK in Pristina. You remember making that

23 statement, don't you?

24 MR. BLACK: Your Honour --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember. I remember

1 approximately.

2 MR. KHAN:

3 Q. Now, when you met with Mr. Black - and there's nothing wrong with

4 it at all - of course you discussed the areas of your proposed testimony

5 today, didn't you?

6 A. You mean when I made the statement when I was in Pristina or

7 what?

8 Q. When you met with the Prosecution here in The Hague, you

9 discussed what you would say in court, didn't you?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. And in discussing what you would say in court to Their Honours,

12 is it correct that you were given an opportunity to read the statements

13 that you gave, both to the Prosecution here and to UNMIK?

14 A. Yes. I didn't read them now. I didn't need to read them because

15 I know more or less what I have said. I -- remind me or ask me what you

16 want me about these statements and I can answer you.

17 Q. Yes. If you can answer my questions. You say you did not read

18 any statement that you made since your arrival in The Hague. Is that

19 true?

20 A. I didn't need actually to read them again, because I know very

21 well what I -- what happened to me in the past. And so I recounted what

22 happened to me, what I went through.

23 Q. And you remember what was in your statement to CCIU as much as

24 you remember what was in your statement to the Prosecution that asked you

25 questions today. Isn't that right?

1 A. I remember that I have made some statements.

2 Q. When you were interviewed by CCIU, you told them what you had

3 seen at the place you were detained. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. You told them about the people you saw. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. I told them about the persons I recognised. Maybe I may

7 forget some person's names because a statement I made was at an earlier

8 time. If you ask me about the concrete names, I can answer you whether I

9 know them or not.

10 Q. Witness, I'll decide what I'm going to ask; please try and answer

11 them. You also described things that people said that were relevant to

12 the suffering you've described today. Is that correct?

13 A. What I experienced I said.

14 Q. You see, what I put to you very simply is this: That the reason

15 you never mentioned anything at all, not a word, not a whisper, about

16 Celiku is that you never saw him at that camp at all. Isn't that the

17 truth?

18 A. I have seen him, but at that time I didn't know his real name.

19 And I didn't want to say what I didn't know. I saw him very well, but at

20 that time I didn't know what his real name was, even though the statement

21 was -- is an old statement.

22 Q. And you were asked a very specific question if you remember by

23 CCIU about your release. And of course, you must remember that event

24 very clearly. Is that correct or not?

25 A. Yes. I remember my release.

1 Q. Do you remember telling CCIU that you were "issued a release

2 paper and told to go home. The release paper stated my first and last

3 name and that I was released. I cannot remember if it was signed or not.

4 I throw away that release paper on my way home."

5 Do you remember saying that?

6 A. I don't remember that. I have said that I was given a release

7 paper; this I know very well. He asked me whether I remember. Maybe he

8 has asked me; maybe the translator didn't translate properly. That's why

9 it was not written, that I didn't write Celiku. Maybe it is the mistake

10 of the interpreter or the translator.

11 Q. Or maybe, Witness, it's because the statement is accurate and you

12 failed, once again, to mention anything at all about any piece of paper

13 being signed by Celiku. That's also a possibility, isn't it?

14 A. I told you that maybe when it was translated it was not

15 translated "Celiku." Maybe it was not well-done by Celiku and he failed

16 to put in the name Celiku. Because this is what was written on that

17 paper that Shala gave me. He gave the same paper to many other persons,

18 not only to me.

19 Q. Now, thinking back to when you gave that statement, is it correct

20 in fact that you spent about two to three hours giving that statement

21 with CCIU/UNMIK? Is that correct?

22 A. I remember that I gave the statement, but I cannot tell you for

23 sure how much time I spent there because a lot of time has passed since

24 then.

25 Q. Do you remember telling Mr. Black, who asked you questions today,

1 that you spent about two to three hours giving that statement to the

2 CCIU? Do you remember that conversation but a day or so ago, or has that

3 escaped your memory?

4 A. Yes, I remember. It was approximately as I said. I said two or

5 -- I don't know for sure. At the CCIU it was two or three hours I think.

6 Q. Witness, have you discussed your account with various members of

7 your friends and family?

8 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, if -- I would ask if this is going to

9 get into names we go into private session. Just a caution.

10 MR. KHAN: Yes, it's not at the moment.

11 Q. Witness, do you have my question in mind?

12 A. Can you repeat it? Can you tell me, please, whether we are in

13 private or in public session?

14 Q. We're in public session.

15 A. Can you repeat the question, please?

16 Q. Yes, of course. You thought a great deal about what you say

17 happened in 1998, haven't you? It's a very natural thing to do.

18 A. From that day on, I didn't think but I kept thinking only of

19 Shala who killed my uncle, and this I will not forget. I didn't need to

20 think.

21 Q. And you discussed your experience with various friends, no doubt

22 with members of your family. You've talked about it quite a bit, haven't

23 you?

24 A. Nobody knew before I was released. After my release, I told some

25 persons, but not all of us -- not all of our family knew that he was

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1 killed.

2 Q. You told the Prosecution today that the three soldiers -- that

3 three soldiers came to your -- well, came to a tractor on the day that

4 you were arrested or abducted. Do you remember saying that?

5 A. Yes. When they stopped us in the road. Three or four I think.

6 I don't know.

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18 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.

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15 [Open session]

16 MR. KHAN:

17 Q. You see, Witness, what I'm trying to get you to accept is that

18 rather than giving careful evidence, you are rather casual in what you

19 say in response to questions. Would you agree with that?

20 A. No, no. I'm not being not careful. I am saying things about

21 what happened to me.

22 Q. Because you know the answers you give are important?

23 A. They are important, all the things that happened to me. And I'm

24 speaking about the things that happened to me.

25 Q. And because you've got no idea as to what Their Honours may find

1 useful, you're trying your best to answer every question as truthfully as

2 possible. Is that right?

3 A. I'm telling the truth, what happened.

4 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, if Exhibit 123 could be put to the

5 witness, I'd be grateful.

6 Q. Witness, do you have that before you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You remember being asked questions about that document by the

9 Prosecution but a couple of hours ago. Is that right?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. You told Their Honours on oath that you drew that sketch. That

12 is not the truth, is it? It was drawn for you.

13 A. No. I was -- I drew this because nobody else who was not there

14 could draw this; I did. But it was done according to my words, the words

15 that I said.

16 Q. In fact -- so you accept that you didn't draw it; you described

17 it?

18 A. I can't remember now, but it was drawn from what I said. The

19 cellar, the well, where they were, and a person who was not there could

20 not have drawn this.

21 Q. Witness, if you can't remember, why didn't you say so to the

22 Prosecution? Why did you wait for me to ask many questions before you're

23 willing to tell the truth that you couldn't remember? Could you explain

24 that?

25 A. The truth is that I drew this sketch, but this kind of question

1 -- this is the truth. This is the truth. This is the place and how it

2 was. That's the truth. And it was done in my presence.

3 Q. Witness, you can say it's the truth as many times as you like.

4 Of course Their Honours will decide what is the truth. But isn't it in

5 fact the truth that you simply marked an X and an arrow and a circle on

6 that document and the document was already drawn for you and you simply

7 marked it? Isn't that the truth?

8 A. No one could have known how to do this without me telling them.

9 Nobody could have known where the well was, where the toilet was, where

10 the doors were. Nobody who has not been there can draw this, can do

11 this, without me. People who have been there, they possibly -- they

12 probably can do that, yes.

13 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, perhaps we can go into private session

14 for a moment.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

16 [Private session]

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25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

1 to be reconvened on Friday, the 4th day of

2 February, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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