Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2994

1 Friday, 4 February 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.

8 If I could remind you of the affirmation you made at the

9 beginning of your evidence; that still applies. Mr. Khan has, I think,

10 some more questions for you.

11 Mr. Khan.

12 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful, Your Honours.

13 WITNESS: WITNESS L-10 [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Khan: [Continued]

16 Q. I'll try not to be too long and I'll apologise at the outset for

17 an irritating cough.

18 JUDGE PARKER: I doubt we can hold you personally responsible.

19 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful.

20 Your Honour, perhaps we can go into closed session.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.

22 [Private session]

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14 [Open session]

15 MR. GUY-SMITH:

16 Q. We've agreed that when you were speaking to Mr. Black yesterday,

17 you agreed with him yesterday that with regard to the statement you made

18 in November when he asked you if you spoke the truth you said that you

19 did. Now I'm going to move on to my next question, which is -- Mr. Black

20 did not ask you those questions with regard to the statement that you

21 made to the CCIU. So my first question to you is this, sir: When you

22 made the statement to the CCIU before you made the statement to the

23 investigator from the ICTY in November of 2002, did you - using Mr.

24 Black's words - answer all the questions of your own free will?

25 A. The way it was I answered approximately with the CCIU. I know

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Page 3008

1 that I mentioned those persons and where they took me. I mentioned this

2 in CCIU as well.

3 Q. I'm sorry. That wasn't my question. And if you listen to my

4 question and if you try to answer my question, then I won't have to ask

5 it more than once. My question was: Did you answer the questions of

6 your own free will when you spoke to the CCIU? It's a simple question

7 and you can answer it yes or no because either you did or you didn't.

8 A. Of my free will because of the case.

9 Q. Excellent. Now, with regard to the other question that Mr. Black

10 had asked you about the ICTY statement, I'm going to ask you that

11 question also. When you spoke to the people at the CCIU, did you answer

12 the questions truthfully, yes or no?

13 A. I gave some names there. It was a shorter statement, and I said

14 that maybe they will bring some news to us, but they didn't.

15 Q. You didn't answer my question, so I'm going to have to ask it

16 again. Which is: When you spoke to the folks at the CCIU, did you

17 answer their questions truthfully, yes or no?

18 A. As far as I know, I told them the truth. It was in the

19 beginning.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, you also had an opportunity to be involved in a

21 discussion with Serbian authorities. And without talking about what

22 happened there, I just want to establish that you were in a room with

23 Serbian authorities in which there was a discussion about what happened

24 to you. Yes or no?

25 A. About Lapusnik or where? What do you mean?

Page 3009

1 Q. Well, if I understand your testimony from yesterday when you were

2 being asked questions by Mr. Black you were asked the following question

3 - and I just want to make sure whether or not it's accurate or not. I'm

4 trying to get some help here as I told you, I'm a little confused - Mr.

5 Black asked you yesterday:

6 "Witness, were you ever interviewed by the Serb authorities about

7 your experiences in the summer of 1998?"

8 And you responded:

9 "They caught me in a village. It's not that I voluntarily gave

10 information. They intercepted me in a village and took me into a police

11 station."

12 All I'm trying to do for the moment is establish whether or not

13 that in fact is an accurate statement, that's what happened, that you

14 were caught by the Serb authorities and you were taken to a police

15 station.

16 A. That's true.

17 Q. Good.

18 A. That's true.

19 Q. Now, with regard to that incident, as I understand your testimony

20 here, what you were interested in doing during that time was escaping.

21 You wanted to get away from the Serb authorities; that's what you've told

22 us. Right?

23 A. That's how it was and I escaped.

24 Q. During the time that you were with the Serb authorities - and as

25 you put it you were trying to escape - they asked you questions, didn't

Page 3010

1 they?

2 A. I don't know if they asked me questions. I know they asked me,

3 Where have you been? I told them, I don't know where I've been because I

4 was blindfolded. I don't know of giving them any other information.

5 They asked me to come the following day and give a statement. And I

6 said, Okay, I will come because there's no other place I can go to. And

7 to my knowledge, I didn't say there that I saw any person at all.

8 Q. Okay. I just asked you whether or not they asked you questions,

9 and your answer was, and I'm going to quote your answer which was first

10 of all: "I don't know if they asked me questions." And then you said:

11 "I know they asked me, Where have you been."

12 So in fact your answer would be: Yes, they asked me questions.

13 Correct?

14 A. I don't know if they asked me questions. They did ask me

15 questions, but I didn't say anything.

16 Q. Okay. Now --

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could go into private session for a moment,

18 please.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

20 [Private session]

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22 [Open session]

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Are we in open session?

24 Q. Yesterday in response to a question asked of you by Mr. Black

25 with regard to what you told the Serb authorities when they picked you up

Page 3013

1 sometime in September or October of 1998 you said in response to the

2 question:

3 "Q. And what did you tell them?

4 "A. I told them that I don't know where I was, that I have no

5 idea. I just told them how it happened."

6 And then you said, which is the part that I'd like to discuss

7 with you: "They had all information."

8 With regard to that statement that you made yesterday "they had

9 all information," what information did they have that they discussed with

10 you?

11 A. They had information where I was staying. At that time I was

12 staying in Ferizaj.

13 Q. Apart from information of where you were staying, did they have

14 any other information concerning Lapusnik?

15 A. They asked me, Where have you been? I told them that I didn't

16 know, and I don't remember saying anything to them.

17 Q. Okay. Now, when you gave a statement to the folks at the CCIU in

18 August of 2001, did they come to you or did you go to them?

19 A. I went to them.

20 Q. Before you went to them to make this statement, had you had some

21 previous contact with them? Had you talked to some investigators either

22 in person or on the phone?

23 A. I didn't have such contacts. They had informed families at the

24 Red Cross, and then I went to the CCIU and spoke to them. I didn't have

25 any phone conversation with them.

Page 3014

1 Q. Okay. And when you spoke with them, do you recall during the

2 conversation that you had with them whether or not they told you that you

3 had to provide your details correctly and to the best of your knowledge?

4 Do you recall them making such a statement to you?

5 A. Maybe they did. As I said, I had my interpreter. Maybe it

6 wasn't interpreted correctly, and we couldn't trust everyone at that

7 time.

8 Q. Now, the interpreter that you had with you on that day --

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we go into private session?

10 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 MR. GUY-SMITH:

14 Q. Well, it was actually the second time that you had given a

15 statement. The first statement you gave was the reluctant statement to

16 the Serb authorities where they questioned you. Here --

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I see Mr. Black is rising.

18 MR. BLACK: I just think we should be careful. He didn't say he

19 gave a statement; what he said was that he was arrested and was asked

20 some questions. But there wasn't a signed statement, as far as I

21 understand the evidence.

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I haven't suggested there was a signed statement.

23 MR. BLACK: Or any statement, signed or unsigned.

24 JUDGE PARKER: I think "statement" may have a particular

25 significance or understanding to the witness, Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 3016

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm going to be exploring that, Your Honour.

2 Q. Now, when you were at the CCIU and you were discussing matters

3 with the CCIU, afterwards did you sign any documents about what you had

4 told them?

5 A. I don't remember about signing. I don't remember whether I

6 signed or not, but I think I did.

7 Q. And when you were at the CCIU we understand that the statements

8 that you gave there were of your own free will and truthful. Right?

9 A. As I said, maybe we did not mention everything because it was a

10 very beginning, and we thought that they would take some steps in order

11 to provide us with information.

12 Q. You did mention to them in that statement your experiences on the

13 14th of June, 1998, didn't you?

14 A. As for those dates, I don't know exactly how I said that, but I

15 gave the approximate of what happened. I don't remember the dates that I

16 gave them.

17 Q. By August 19th, 2001, had you spoken with - don't mention any

18 names - had you spoken with any members of your family or other

19 individuals concerning your experiences in the summer of 1998?

20 A. If you could repeat the question, please. I didn't understand

21 the first part.

22 Q. By August 19th, 2001, had you spoken with any members of your

23 family or other individuals concerning your experiences in the summer of

24 1998?

25 A. What I experienced, I did discuss it to certain extent; but for

Page 3017

1 the event, how it actually happened, only two or three persons knew about

2 it, not more.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: We should go into private session but for a

4 second.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

6 [Private session]

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18 [Open session]

19 MR. GUY-SMITH:

20 Q. When you spoke to the investigator at the CCIU on August 19th,

21 2001, you described what happened to you as you were walking down the

22 road towards Zborce. Correct?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. You told the CCIU investigator that: "As I got closer I saw my

25 uncle," and I won't mention any names, "and two masked UCK soldiers."

Page 3018

1 True?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That in fact was the same thing that you told us yesterday when

4 being asked questions by Mr. Black. You said, and this is on page 11:

5 "And there we found two masked people; they stopped us, too."

6 Right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, yesterday when we were talking about this incident you

9 described the clothing that they were wearing. Right?

10 A. Yes, I described that to some extent.

11 Q. Well, yesterday you told us that one was dressed in a rather

12 brownish reddish jacket and a pair of trousers and the other had a black

13 jacket on and I think he trousers were rather darker. Right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You indicated that they both had patches. Right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you identified who they were. You said --

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Perhaps we should go into private session.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

20 [Private session]

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17 [Open session]

18 MR. GUY-SMITH:

19 Q. Well, sir, if you believed that you knew the identity of

20 individuals in August of 2001 when you were speaking to the CCIU

21 investigators and you were there, as you've told us, for the purpose of

22 getting information and giving information so that you could track down

23 what was going on, you certainly would have given the CCIU investigators

24 those names, wouldn't you?

25 A. I don't remember, but I think I mentioned some names. I -- the

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Page 3022

1 fact is that these two persons, I guess that they were the persons I

2 referred to when they first stopped us.

3 Q. But you didn't mention their names to the CCIU investigator.

4 That's what I'm driving at. In 2001, four years ago, you didn't mention

5 these names.

6 A. I think I did say the names.

7 Q. During that self-same conference with the CCIU, you did mention

8 the name of --

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Perhaps it's private session, I'm not sure, so to

10 make sure.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

12 [Private session]

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17 [Open session]

18 MR. GUY-SMITH:

19 Q. And when you returned to Kosovo, did you again watch the news?

20 A. I followed the news again. I watched television again.

21 Q. When the gentlemen who are on trial here were arrested, did you

22 watch news concerning that arrest?

23 A. I saw them.

24 Q. You've told us that you have watched some of the proceedings

25 here. Is that right?

Page 3031

1 A. Not the proceedings here, but I saw when they were arrested.

2 Q. Okay. Now, after they were arrested and during the trial

3 proceedings that have been going on here, have you had a chance to watch

4 any of the proceedings here?

5 A. I didn't watch.

6 Q. When you were in Kosovo after the war, did you read the

7 newspaper?

8 A. Not that much.

9 Q. Okay. What newspapers did you read, sir?

10 A. I don't remember which ones. Maybe occasionally one. I don't

11 remember.

12 Q. Are there a lot of newspapers in Kosovo?

13 A. Maybe there are, but I don't read much newspapers.

14 Q. Have you seen any of the gentlemen here sitting at this trial in

15 this newspaper, their photographs?

16 A. I've seen Commander Celiku in -- on a newspaper.

17 Q. Now, during the time that you were being interviewed by the

18 people at the CCIU in August of 2001, were you shown any photographs at

19 that time?

20 A. No. Not of Celiku. I was shown some photographs, but I did not

21 recognise any on those ones.

22 Q. I see. And when you had your meeting with the ICTY investigator

23 in 2002, were you shown photographs at that time? And when I'm talking

24 about photographs, I'm talking about photographs of people who may or may

25 not have been responsible for what you suffered at Lapusnik.

Page 3032

1 A. For those persons that I knew, I knew them as well last night.

2 And for those that I didn't know, I said I didn't know them.

3 Q. So is your answer to my question then that you were shown

4 photographs in 2002?

5 A. They showed me photographs. Those that I knew, I said I knew

6 them; and those that I didn't, I didn't know them. There was several

7 photographs.

8 Q. The photographs that you were shown in 2002, were those single

9 photographs or a bunch of photographs on a piece of paper together, do

10 you remember?

11 A. I don't remember what the order of the photographs was, but I

12 said, I know this person, for the person that I knew. And I can't say

13 that for someone that I don't know.

14 Q. I understand. Do you recall as you sit here today any of the

15 photographs that you identified in the interview in 2002?

16 A. Even today those that I've seen whenever you want -- and if I

17 remember I can tell you this person was there and this wasn't.

18 Q. I'm sorry. Perhaps my question was ill-framed. Maybe I'll try

19 again.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith, could I just draw your attention to

21 line 21. You may not have picked up the last words. I think you and the

22 witness may be at cross-purposes as to which photographs.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. I appreciate the

24 guidance. No, it's of great help.

25 Q. I want to go back now to your interview in November of 2002. All

Page 3033

1 right? Are you with me?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Good. During that interview do you remember if you were shown

4 photographs of people who could have been guards or responsible for the

5 mistreatment that you suffered?

6 A. I don't remember this.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you've had an opportunity to speak with

8 Mr. Black before you began testifying in these proceedings. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you spoke with Mr. Black, Mr. Black gave you a copy of the

11 statements that you had previously made, didn't he?

12 A. If I see those statements, I can answer to your question.

13 Q. Let me ask you this question, sir: When you were with Mr. Black

14 and you were preparing for your testimony here, did Mr. Black give you

15 any pieces of paper to review?

16 A. I read some, I don't know how many. If you could remind me, what

17 is that piece of paper about?

18 Q. I'm sorry. I can't, unfortunately, because I wasn't there so I'm

19 going to have to rely on your memory with regard to this issue.

20 A. Yes, I read them.

21 MR. BLACK: Would it be helpful, Your Honour, if he's shown the

22 statements? I have them right here.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, if in fact those the statements you gave to

24 him, that would be helpful, yes.

25 MR. BLACK: I think so. Perhaps he can answer that question.

Page 3034

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.

2 MR. GUY-SMITH:

3 Q. Now, did you spend some time reviewing those statements before

4 you came to court to testify?

5 A. Whatever you asked me and if I remember and if that was true, I

6 can tell you, I can answer your questions. I did not learn these

7 statements by heart. I know what happened to me.

8 Q. I understand that. My simple question is: Did you spend some

9 time reviewing those statements? That's all I'm asking you, not if you

10 learned them by heart. But did you spend some time looking over them?

11 A. He asked me questions, but I did not read through the statement.

12 I really don't remember.

13 Q. I'm sorry. I've forgotten. When did you meet with Mr. Black?

14 When was that?

15 A. Before the trial.

16 Q. Before you came to testify here. Right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you recall when you arrived in The Hague?

19 A. Yes. Why?

20 Q. Is it -- I'm trying to help you in terms of time when you met

21 with Mr. Black. Is the day you arrived in The Hague the day you met with

22 Mr. Black?

23 A. No. I met with him here, not when I arrived in The Hague.

24 Q. Okay. And how many days ago was that?

25 A. It happened a day or two before.

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Page 3036

1 Q. Excellent. When you met with Mr. Black and he gave you the

2 statements, did you have a chance to talk to an interpreter about the

3 statements to -- so you could give Mr. Black some information?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And the discussion that you had with Mr. Black, was the

6 interpreter that you were using, there were no difficulties there, were

7 there? You understood each other pretty easily, didn't you?

8 A. To my recollection I read these statements up to certain points,

9 but there was even no need for me to read because I cannot forget the

10 things that happened. I gave the statement the way things happened.

11 Q. Well, is it fair to say then that after you glanced over the

12 statements you made a determination that you didn't need to look at them

13 so you did not review the statements? Is that what you're telling us?

14 A. Ask me whatever you want about what is written in those

15 statements and I can provide you with an answer.

16 Q. Well, I appreciate that, and I'm trying to just find out how you

17 approached your preparation here and what information you reviewed. So

18 if you could be of a little help here, that would be great. And as I

19 understand it you glanced over the statements and then made a decision

20 that this was information that you did not need. Is that a fair

21 statement?

22 A. Whatever he asked me, I did give my answer to his question.

23 Q. And did he ask you specific questions about your statements?

24 A. He asked me how it was, how it happened, how I gave my

25 statements, and I will never change what I've said.

Page 3037

1 Q. So, for example, would it be fair to say that he asked you the

2 following: Is it true that what you said about Shala is that he was 45

3 to 50 years old, 1.8 metres tall, very thin, moustache, short black with

4 grey hair. Is that what he asked you?

5 A. This is what I stated in my statements, and I can still state it.

6 That's the way it was.

7 Q. I understand that, and that's perfect. But my question is: Is

8 that the kind of question that he asked you? He asked you a specific

9 question, for example, about the description of Shala. Right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have no further questions.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

14 Mr. Topolski.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:

16 Q. I just have four things I want to ask you about. First of all,

17 I'd like to give you a map, and I'd like you to use that ELMO next to you

18 with a pointer.

19 MR. TOPOLSKI: Could the witness please have P1, map 6.

20 Q. Sir, if you take the pointer, please, and help us. You have told

21 us very clearly that it was on the 14th of June, 1998, that you were

22 taken prisoner. That's correct, is it not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. As best you can using the pointer, could you show us

25 on the map where you were when the two men stopped you and took you into

Page 3038

1 their custody.

2 A. I don't know maps very well and I cannot show it to you in the

3 map. I can read these names here, Carraleve, but I cannot tell you on

4 the map. I know that I was in the Carraleve territory at the part where

5 Carraleve and Zborce separate. For something that I don't know, I will

6 just say I don't know.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Does it mean then that when you were on

8 your search for your relative at the moment you were taken prisoner, you

9 were somewhere between Carraleve and Zborce. Is that the position?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you very much. You don't need the map again.

12 Before I go on I'd been asked by the gentleman who I think was

13 just asking you some questions to ask you one that he omitted to ask you,

14 so I do it on his behalf.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you very much.

16 MR. TOPOLSKI: Pleasure, and there's no charge for this.

17 Q. How tall are you?

18 A. 1.7 metres, something like that.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 Back to the 14th of June when the two men took you into their

21 custody somewhere between Carraleve and Zborce. Doing the best you can,

22 can you tell us approximately what time of day this would have been?

23 A. Approximately it was around 10.00 or 11.00. I can't say exactly

24 what time it was, but it was before noon.

25 Q. One more question regarding this aspect. If you from that spot

Page 3039

1 drove to the village of Dulje, approximately how long do you think that

2 journey would take?

3 A. From there to Dulje it could be around 5 kilometres or 6. I

4 didn't measure it in kilometres. Approximately. From my village to

5 Dulje, it's about 10 minutes, not more. The journey is no longer than

6 ten minutes.

7 Q. Thank you very much. The second thing I want to ask you about is

8 this: You have told us that after your release you were arrested by Serb

9 authorities.

10 A. That's how it was.

11 Q. I want to ask you one or two questions about that you've not been

12 asked already. I know you'll be patient with me. And the first question

13 is this: Were you taken to a police station by the Serbs?

14 A. They caught me in a village, placed me in a car, and took me to

15 the police station.

16 Q. Where was the police station they took you to?

17 A. Lipjan.

18 Q. Approximately - again, doing the best you can - how long after

19 you were released from custody, from Lapusnik I mean, how long was it

20 after that that you were arrested and taken to a police station in

21 Lipjan?

22 A. It would be three or four months. I don't know for sure. I

23 don't know exactly.

24 Q. I think you'll be able to answer my next question either yes or

25 no, and I'm going to be very careful not to mention names. When you were

Page 3040

1 taken to the police station in Lipjan, did you know that two members of

2 your family had also been taken to a police station in Lipjan and

3 interviewed by the Serbs? Did you know that, please yes or no?

4 A. I don't know. I don't know about this. I didn't know that at

5 that time and I don't know it today.

6 Q. Well, I'm going to help you, and in order for me to do that

7 properly so you can assist this Court, I'd like to go into private

8 session, please.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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Page 3041

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 MR. TOPOLSKI:

5 Q. Have you ever heard the name Srba Vujinovic an SUP police

6 officer?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Are you absolutely sure about that?

9 A. I am sure. I was never interested in him and I never dealt with

10 such things.

11 Q. Again, we are in open session and I shall be careful and I want

12 you to be careful not to mention names. In relation to that gentleman

13 whose name I've just given you, are you aware whether any members of your

14 family have any connection or contact with that gentleman in 1998? In

15 other words, have you heard members of your family talking about that man

16 in 1998?

17 A. No. This is not true.

18 Q. This is not true. They never talked about him. Is that what

19 you're telling us?

20 A. We didn't have any conversation about this subject you're

21 mentioning. And to my knowledge, I don't remember us having to deal with

22 them at any time.

23 Q. Thank you very much. I'll move on to the third thing I wanted to

24 ask you about. But before I do that there's one more question about your

25 dealings with the Serbs. Wait for the question. Wait for the question.

Page 3042

1 In answer to the gentleman who was just asking you questions a few

2 moments ago, you said to us page 16, line 4 to be exact: "They," that is

3 the Serbs, "asked me to come the following day and give a statement."

4 Do you remember the Serbs asking you to come back the following

5 -- just wait for the question. I promise you you'll have all the time

6 you need. Do you remember the Serbs asking you to come back and make a

7 statement?

8 A. I will tell you that way. When I was captured, I was captured by

9 an Albanian policeman from Godance who was together with another Serb.

10 These two persons are the ones who interrogated me and who beat me. The

11 policeman was from Godance and his name was Fatmir; I don't know his last

12 name. There was another Serb with him, and I don't know his name either.

13 The name you mentioned, I don't remember that name. I never learnt his

14 name because I didn't need it.

15 Q. Well, sir, that's a very interesting answer, but I'm afraid it's

16 not an answer to the question I asked you. And I'll repeat the question

17 I asked you, which was: Do you remember the Serbs asking you to come

18 back and make a statement?

19 A. They said so.

20 Q. Did you go back and make a statement?

21 A. No. No, I didn't go. The following day I left for Germany.

22 Q. I now understand entirely your evidence on that. Thank you for

23 your help. Last topic, and we need to go into -- I haven't asked you

24 anything --

25 A. I would like to finish this.

Page 3043

1 Q. All right. If you want to say something else, I'm sure you can.

2 A. Everybody knows about the incident when the police caught me, and

3 they all know that the following day I left for Germany at 5.00 a.m.

4 Q. Thank you. We now know that, too. I want to ask you just one

5 more thing, and for it we need to go into private session at the

6 beginning, please.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

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Page 3044

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Page 3045

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Page 3046

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17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 MR. TOPOLSKI:

21 Q. Last thing I want to ask you about, sir, and thank you for your

22 patience. I want to ask you a couple of questions about the man Murrizi.

23 Did you ever discover Murrizi's real name?

24 A. As for Murrizi's name and about Shala's, he said that as for

25 Murrizi's name he thought it was Agim Murtezi. I think that's what he

Page 3047

1 said about Murrizi's name.

2 Q. Are you telling us that Shala told you Murrizi's real name was

3 Agim Murtezi? Is that what you're telling us?

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 Q. When either in Kosovo or Germany, I don't -- it doesn't matter

8 where, when men arrived at this court here in The Hague, that was on

9 television. Did you see any television broadcasts of defendants arriving

10 at this court?

11 A. Yes, I saw that on that day.

12 Q. You will have seen a man in this court whose name was Agim

13 Murtezi. You saw him on the television, didn't you?

14 A. That's how it was. To my recollection, that's how it was.

15 Q. Did you pick up a telephone and tell anyone that they had the

16 wrong man, that that was not Murrizi from the camp? Did you tell anyone

17 that, sir?

18 A. No, no, no. Not to a soul. I just saw that that person was not

19 Murrizi. I didn't make any phone calls.

20 Q. That's all I ask you. Thank you.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Topolski.

22 Yes, Mr. Black.

23 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. Just a few questions.

24 Re-examined by Mr. Black:

25 Q. Witness, over the course of yesterday and today many times you've

Page 3048

1 mentioned a person named Shala and you've talked to us about him. Now,

2 what you've told us, was that on the basis of what you saw and

3 experienced or was it on the basis of what other people told you?

4 A. Whatever I said about Shala, the truth is that I base it on what

5 I saw. I saw him with my own eyes, Shala.

6 Q. And when you pointed out Shala in the courtroom here yesterday,

7 did you do that based on your own knowledge or based on what other people

8 had told you?

9 A. I have already stated in the statement. I can state it

10 everywhere that I -- this person I cannot forget. He was there on the

11 spot; he had the keys.

12 Q. You've also told us about a person named Qerqiz. Now, the things

13 that you've told us, were they based on your personal knowledge or were

14 they based on what other people had told you?

15 A. I heard Shala calling him Qerqiz. That's where I heard the name

16 mentioned. And when Emin Emini told me he said, This guy is from Racak.

17 When they took him to that place, I don't know where they beat him, this

18 is what he said to me.

19 Q. And did you yourself see Qerqiz in Lapusnik?

20 A. I have seen him masked.

21 Q. And what about Commander Celiku? Did you yourself see him in

22 Lapusnik?

23 A. Yes, I have seen him without wearing a mask.

24 Q. When you pointed out Commander Celiku in the courtroom yesterday,

25 did you do that based on your own knowledge or what other people had told

Page 3049

1 you?

2 A. No, I know this myself. I've seen him.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness.

4 MR. BLACK: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Sir, you'll be pleased to know that that is the

6 end of your evidence. The questioning had finished. Thank you for your

7 attendance here and you are now free to go back to your home. You can

8 leave the courtroom.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.

12 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, we had hoped to have the next witness

13 available to start testifying -- start his testimony today. However,

14 we've had some difficulties in the scheduling, so our next witness will

15 not be available to Monday afternoon, the next session. So we do not

16 have another witness for today.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will need then to adjourn until

18 2.15 on Monday.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.47 a.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of

21 February, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.

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