050330ED

Page 4766

1 identified as Zenel and Timi; right?

2 A. Yes. But not as guards.

3 Q. During your first interview in May, you made it very clear that

4 there was an individual present for a short period of time who had an

5 injured leg; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That individual stayed in the kitchen for about ten days; right?

8 A. Correct. Not in the kitchen, near the kitchen.

9 Q. Okay. Near the kitchen. And that individual's name was Shala;

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, also during that interview you were asked a series of

13 questions about your involvement with an individual by the name of --

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe we should go into private session.

15 JUDGE THELIN: Private.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4767

11 Page 4767 redacted. Private session.

Page 4768

11 Page 4768 redacted. Private session.

Page 4769

11 Page 4769 redacted. Private session.

Page 4770

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session, Your Honours.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH:

25 Q. First of all, if would you take a look, I believe it's at the

Page 4771

1 very -- close to the top of your page 16, and if you go down one, two,

2 three -- I believe it's -- if you go down 12 lines, you will see the

3 question asked. Do you see that? And by that I'm getting to the

4 following question --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. "Was Shala one of the people who talked about this place being

7 used to detain people?"

8 Do you see that?

9 A. No, I can't find it on page 16. I can't find this question.

10 Q. Well, let's try it one more time. You'll see the following

11 question. It says: "Okay. I will -- will concentrate on these three

12 Serbs you are mentioning, but first I want you to answer the question.

13 Was one Shala one of the people who talked about this thing towards the

14 end of this period that you are mentioning?"

15 And you answered: "No, because I didn't have contact with Shala."

16 A. That's correct. Yes.

17 Q. After you had your interview in May, your next interview was in

18 the middle of June; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In your interview in June, you once again discussed the issue of

21 who were the guards at Lapusnik; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You identified the guards in Lapusnik as being Zenel and Timi.

24 True?

25 A. I don't remember saying this.

Page 4772

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4773

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: With Mr. Younis's help, interview of June 17th.

2 Q. I'm referring you specifically to page 42.

3 And I've done it in such a way if you want I can just give him

4 that one section. Page 42, 43, 44.

5 You have that in front of you?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Do you see the question asked: "Okay. Can you remember who were

8 the guards at this place?"

9 A. On the first page?

10 Q. Yeah.

11 A. No, I can't find it. I can't find this question.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might give him my -- I have it -- I have

13 extracted those particulars, so let me give him mine.

14 JUDGE THELIN: Any objections to that, Mr. Whiting?

15 MR. WHITING: If I could look at it first.

16 Is it on page 42? Is that what you're referring to?

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. June 17th transcript, page 42.

18 MR. WHITING: The problem is for some reason this pagination is

19 different from the one I have and the one I believe the witness has, which

20 may explain why he couldn't find it on the page.

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: It may well.

22 MR. WHITING: But now I need to find where it is on our

23 pagination.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: This is -- I received -- these are documents I

25 received from the Prosecution.

Page 4774

1 JUDGE THELIN: We understand that. There may be a need to

2 calibrate and we're waiting for Mr. Whiting. Take your time.

3 MR. WHITING: I've found it. It's only about a half page off. I

4 found it. Yes, I did.

5 JUDGE THELIN: So I suggest we make sure what the witness now has

6 what should be in front of him and then Mr. Guy-Smith can proceed.

7 MR. WHITING: Very good. It's -- on our version it's on page 41.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH:

9 Q. Do you have it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You were asked the following question: "Can you remember who the

12 guards were at this place?" Correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You gave an answer. The answer you gave was: "The guards were

15 changed." True?

16 A. Correct, yes.

17 Q. Now, before I go any further with regard to what you -- what you

18 said in your interview of June 17th, when you were giving statements on

19 June 17th, at that time you certainly were telling the truth, were you

20 not?

21 A. I believe, yes. I'm sure I did.

22 Q. Unlike before in May when you sometimes told the truth. By the

23 time we reached June, you had made a determination that you would tell the

24 truth; correct?

25 A. I told the truth in May as well.

Page 4775

1 Q. Would it be fair to say that you told the truth each and every

2 time that you made a statement to members of the Prosecution team?

3 A. In May I didn't remember things, and later on when I remembered,

4 some things came to my mind and I said those, and I believe that there's

5 nothing untrue that I said in May, with the exception of the word "Shala."

6 Q. Well, certainly by June, then, when you've had a period of time to

7 reflect, approximately a month, by that point in time any of the mistakes

8 that you may have made as you sit here today, or you believe you may have

9 made in May, had been remedied by June 17th; correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. After you answer the question with regard to the guards were

12 changed, you were asked the following question: "But in general, as a

13 question, there was Zenel who checked people who came in for visits or

14 whatever." Right? That's what you said; right?

15 A. What I said was that Zenel visited. Timi and Zenel visited.

16 Q. So I take it, then, that the translation here that I have, which

17 is, "There has Zenel who checked people who came in for visits or

18 whatever," is incorrect, and what you really were saying at that point in

19 time was that Zenel was one of the number of people who visited the prison

20 camp; right? Is that your testimony?

21 A. No. Zenel was a soldier there, and what I said was that he

22 visited from time to time the building we're talking about.

23 Q. Let me ask you this question, then, to be very plain, sir. Is it

24 your testimony that Zenel was never a guard, and that is the position you

25 took when you spoke with the Office of the Prosecutor some time ago in

Page 4776

1 June, that he never was a guard?

2 A. I don't know about the beginning, but for later on, I know that he

3 wasn't a guard. It can be that he was a guard in the beginning, but he

4 was frequently in that building.

5 Q. But with regard to Timi, I take it that Timi, he was a guard;

6 right?

7 A. No.

8 Q. He was not?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Well, let's turn the page, sir, and --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH:

13 Q. Let's turn the page, sir, and you have a following answer which

14 is: "And there was also Timi," which refers back to your initial

15 statement that the guards were changed. Now, when you said there was also

16 Timi, were you telling the truth then?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what you were telling them was that Timi was a guard; correct?

19 A. No. I'm not saying this. He visited the place. I said it then

20 and am repeating it now, that Timi and Zenel visited the place. I don't

21 know about Zenel, whether he was a guard for a certain period of time, but

22 they frequently visited this feature.

23 Q. That's information that you gave to the -- to the Prosecutors when

24 you spoke to them in June, on June 17th, that Zenel and Timi were people

25 who visited this place? Is that what you told them?

Page 4777

1 A. Yes, they visited them frequently. These visits were frequent

2 ones.

3 Q. Now, when you said that they visited frequently, I take it that

4 you also informed them at that time what their duties were, and if I

5 understand your testimony now, it is your position that you told the

6 investigators on June 17th the duties of Zenel and Timi were those of

7 soldiers as opposed to guards. You never indicated they were guards;

8 right?

9 A. I never said they were guards. I didn't say this. I never said

10 this.

11 Q. All they did was visit?

12 A. They visited the place.

13 Q. So if they visited the place and they had no relationship to the

14 place, they had no duties with regard to the place; correct?

15 A. I don't know their duties. I know that they had duties because

16 they visited the place frequently, but as I said, I don't know their

17 duties.

18 Q. Well, you certainly never would have said back in June 17th, after

19 you'd had some time to reflect and remember who the guards were, that they

20 had any duties as it related to the prison, would you? That's not

21 something you would have said, is it?

22 A. This is how I said it. I don't know what the meaning is, but what

23 I said was that they were regular visitors. I don't know what their task

24 was.

25 Q. Well, it's on -- I'm on page 44, and I don't know if the

Page 4778

1 pagination now remains the same or not, sir, but you were asked the

2 following question by Mr. Lehtinen: "Er, so were -- were Zenel and Timi

3 persons that would stand at the gate of this prison?"

4 And your answer was: "Timi and Zenel were people in charge

5 there." Correct?

6 A. I'm not saying they didn't have responsibilities. They did have

7 responsibilities because they went frequently to the place, but I didn't

8 say that they were guards there.

9 Q. What about Agim Murrizi? Did you know him?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was he a guard there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the other person who you identified as being a guard there was

14 a guy who had an injured foot; right?

15 A. This is what I said in May.

16 Q. No. I'm now in June, sir. In June you said --

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you ever say in June, on June 17th, that this -- that an

19 individual by the name of Shala had an injured foot, who might have had

20 something to do with being a guard at the prison?

21 A. I don't believe I've said this.

22 Q. Well, unfortunately, once again, I'm not sure the pagination is

23 going to be correct. I'm now on page 53.

24 MR. WHITING: I think it's our page 51.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH:

Page 4779

1 Q. Do you recall being asked a series of questions concerning who was

2 standing at the gate at the time that you went up to the prison in order

3 to do some business? Do you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you said --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You say: "I think it was Agim." And then you go on to say: "Or

8 that person who is now at the Tribunal, Shala, because he had an injured

9 foot. It seems to me that it was him, Haradin. Because he had an injured

10 foot, he stayed in the kitchen for a week to ten days."

11 So there is no mistake here --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- in June it was your position and you told the Prosecutor that

14 the possible guard at the prison with an injured foot was Shala, right,

15 that's what you said?

16 A. Yes. That's how it is written here, but I don't know if he had an

17 injured foot.

18 Q. When you said it you knew he had an injured foot; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you decide that it was inconvenient for him to have an

21 injured foot?

22 A. As I said in the beginning, I didn't remember things. I didn't

23 remember things at all. I just spoke of things that I remembered. As

24 persons, I can identify them very well, because I know both Shalas.

25 Q. Let's spend a little bit more time with your interview on

Page 4780

1 the 17th. Now, on the 17th - I'm now on a -- I'm going to be on my

2 page 61 - you took a break a little bit before the time of 1.14 when you

3 had an off-the-record discussion. Do you remember that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you remember on June 17th speaking with Mr. Lehtinen off the

6 record about some ostensible concerns you had with regard to security?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Okay. I have don't know what page it is for you. Page 61 for me.

9 MR. WHITING: It's the bottom of page 59 and top of page 60.

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.

11 JUDGE THELIN: You're closing in.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH:

13 Q. I'd like to you take a look at it. I suggest that what occurred,

14 sir, was that you took a break, and during the break what you did was you

15 began a negotiation process with Mr. Lehtinen concerning how your future

16 was going to be conducted.

17 A. I don't remember discussing the future. I don't remember.

18 Q. Well, do you recall having a discussion with (redacted), and now

19 we're back on the record since we don't know what was said off the record,

20 in which (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 JUDGE THELIN: Mr. Guy-Smith.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Oh, my goodness. I'm terribly sorry. I do

25 apologise.

Page 4785

1 MR. GUY-SMITH:

2 Q. Could you tell us when you told Mr. Lehtinen how many times you'd

3 been to the prison, as it was called, in your June interview, when you

4 told him that you'd been there two or three times in all, whether that was

5 an accurate statement and an honest statement?

6 A. No. But this is what I remembered. I didn't remember how many

7 times I was. I couldn't tell you even now how many times exactly I was

8 there.

9 Q. Well, if you recall the other day when we were -- when we were

10 chatting with each other, sir, one of the things we were discussing was

11 how many off-the-record interviews you had with Mr. Lehtinen. Do you

12 remember that?

13 A. Yes. Yes. We discussed that.

14 Q. And I believe I'm correct but please do correct me if I'm wrong,

15 that one of the things you told us was that you talked to Mr. Lehtinen

16 about certain facts, as we'll call them, off the record concerning your

17 involvement with and experiences at Lapusnik; is that right?

18 A. I didn't speak off the record. Whatever I said, I said in the

19 office in the presence of three individuals.

20 Q. We know that's not true because you've already admitted that what

21 you did was you spent some time with Mr. Lehtinen in Lapusnik. You took a

22 drive with him for a couple hours.

23 A. Yes. We travelled together, but we didn't discuss anything

24 related to my experience in Lapusnik. I have already stated here I don't

25 recall to have had any interpreters with us, and I don't think there was

Page 4786

1 any.

2 Q. Well, in June, certainly by the time you've had your

3 off-the-record discussion during the interview in which you've been given

4 permission to change your answers, after that you certainly were in a

5 position where discussions concerning Haradin Bala were accurate and

6 truthful; correct?

7 A. In the second interview, I have told what was accurate with

8 respect to Haradin Bala. In the second interview I said what I thought

9 and believed and still do that was accurate.

10 Q. And so we're clear, in the second interview you identified Haradin

11 Bala as having an injured leg; correct?

12 A. Yes. This is what I said.

13 Q. And you also said, and this will be page 93, I believe -- I'm

14 sorry. Yes. You should start on page -- it's going to be page 91.

15 JUDGE THELIN: Could you give Mr. Whiting some indication to

16 see --

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. I'm looking for the best place. It

18 says: "Yeah, okay. I want to speak a little bit about Haradin Bala."

19 Let me you a little bit more.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Preceding that: "And a Baretta pistol, okay,

22 7.65." Next: "Yeah, okay. Er -- then I want to speak a little bit about

23 Haradin Bala."

24 It would be the end of part 2 and the beginning of part 3 as it's

25 been identified to me in the translation.

Page 4787

1 I'll move to another -- I'll move to something else for the moment

2 and we can come back to this. I won't forget it. I think from what I've

3 heard, we're drifting further apart, not getting closer together.

4 JUDGE THELIN: Do you have a page, Mr. Whiting?

5 MR. WHITING: We do. The problem is that -- well, the problem is

6 that your pagination started over again, and so the -- it's actually

7 page 184.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Right.

9 Q. You see it says: "I want to speak a little bit about Haradin

10 Bala." And then you're asked: "When was the first time that you think

11 you saw him?" "It must have been around the beginning of May or the

12 beginning of June."

13 Do you see that?

14 MR. WHITING: Sorry. It's actually 185, that question.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Why don't we give him 184, 185, and 186 to be

16 safe.

17 Q. "But he the least of all stayed. He had an injured leg."

18 You see that?

19 A. Yes. Yes, I see it.

20 Q. When you said that in June, that certainly was the truth. By this

21 point in time you certainly are telling the truth, are you not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Good.

24 A. But I don't remember now that he had an injured leg or foot.

25 Maybe he had, but I don't recall it.

Page 4788

1 Q. Well, let me ask you this: When did you for the first time decide

2 that he didn't have an injured leg? When did that happen?

3 A. I don't recall that. I'm saying this because I don't remember

4 that he had or didn't have an injured leg. He might have, but I don't

5 remember now.

6 Q. In May you said he had an injured leg. Earlier in this same

7 interview you said he had an injured leg.

8 Let me ask you this question: Would it be fair to say that the

9 events were fresher in your mind then than they were last week when you

10 testified?

11 A. No. No, they were -- my memory wasn't fresh at that moment. I

12 didn't think about that. Even now I don't. I'm not interested in this.

13 Once I leave this place, I will forget everything. I'm just saying what I

14 think is accurate. He might have had an injured leg, but he wasn't lame.

15 Someone else was lame.

16 Q. Who was that?

17 A. Another -- the other Shala.

18 Q. I'm sorry, what was his name?

19 A. Ruzhdi. Ruzhdi.

20 Q. But what was his pseudonym?

21 A. Karpuzi.

22 Q. That wasn't his pseudonym, sir. What was his pseudonym?

23 A. I said Karpuzi.

24 Q. And his nickname was Shala; right?

25 A. Yes, Shala.

Page 4789

1 Q. Now, you said with regard to this Shala: "He had an injured leg,

2 and even if he did stay there, I don't think he beat people because he

3 hated that sort of thing. He didn't like it."

4 And then you're asked a question: "Okay. Did you see him in the

5 fighting positions in Lapusnik?"

6 And you said: "He was at the fighting positions, but when

7 his leg was injured he went down there."

8 And you were asked: "What kind of uniform did he wear?"

9 And you answered: "I think he had a black waistcoat, but for the

10 rest of it he wore civilian clothes."

11 Do you see that?

12 A. I don't see it, but this is what I said. That's correct.

13 Q. Now, this other Shala who you've identified as Ruzhdi Karpuzi, now

14 that's a tall man; right?

15 A. Yes, he was --

16 Q. He's big.

17 A. -- tall. I say he might be 1.80 maybe.

18 Q. Now, you were asked -- and here's the next question you were asked

19 with regard to the issue of the guard at the prison being Shala: "Okay.

20 So do you think he was a guard in the prison?"

21 And your answer is: "I don't think so, but he could have been

22 because he had this injured leg."

23 MR. WHITING: That's on page 187.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Mr. Younis, your assistance, please. You maybe

25 have to give him 188, too, just in case. Good.

Page 4790

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4791

1 Q. Now, during this entire period this person that you're discussing

2 here, this Shala you're discussing here, is Haradin Bala; right? That's

3 what you're talking about. That's the subject matter here.

4 A. Yes, that's true, but I think I said even earlier. I don't know

5 if you understood me. I didn't want to speak about Shala.

6 Q. When you say that you didn't want to speak about Shala, I take it

7 is it your testimony now that with regard to everything else but Shala you

8 were telling the truth? Is that what you're telling us? That on May 28th

9 and on June 17th the information that you gave to the Prosecution was the

10 truth except for the information you gave about Haradin Bala? Is that

11 what you're saying?

12 A. There were two Shalas and I wasn't so sure who was who. Maybe I

13 was mistaken when I talked about them. I didn't -- didn't want to talk

14 about them then or now. However, I know that what I said at the beginning

15 and in the end was true.

16 Q. Well, everything that we've discussed thus far, as far as you're

17 concerned, is the truth; correct? Because these are things that you said,

18 sir. You've had a chance to read them, to look at them, and to reflect

19 upon them.

20 A. I couldn't read them or look at them. But I'm saying that when it

21 came to questions regarding Shalas, I might have confused them.

22 Q. Do you recall that after your interview on June 17th you went back

23 the next day and had a further discussion with Mr. Lehtinen and others?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you recall at that time you identified Shala?

Page 4792

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You identified Shala as being 33 or 34 years old, tall, with a

3 long face, dark, with an injured leg; right?

4 MR. WHITING: Excuse -- I'm going to object. I think we should

5 specify which Shala we're talking about here.

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, we're going to find out which Shala he's

7 talking about because apparently he's confused, Your Honours, and I'm

8 trying to make a determination to figure out if he knows who he's talking

9 about.

10 MR. WHITING: I'm going to object. He's not saying that he's

11 confused. He's said he's not confused.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry.

13 MR. WHITING: He said maybe at the time he was confused but not

14 now. And I would submit that it's counsel that is trying to confuse

15 matters here.

16 JUDGE THELIN: Mr. Guy-Smith, maybe you could rephrase that

17 question.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Truly. But just for purposes he said, which is

19 the reason that I took the position I took, his answer on page 25, line 17

20 was: "I couldn't read them or look at them, but I'm saying that when it

21 came to questions regarding Shalas I might have confused them."

22 Okay. Hopefully we have the same pagination. I'm on the

23 June 18th interview, page 30.

24 MR. WHITING: It's the same page.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: We did it. And it's really quite serendipitous

Page 4793

1 because you're asked the following question: "I have to take you back" --

2 MR. WHITING: If you could just wait a moment. It's being put

3 before --

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Oh, surely. And you may have to give him 31, too.

5 MR. WHITING: That's fine, we'll give him both pages.

6 A new problem. The version we have has only English on it. Do --

7 is that also --

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Microphone not activated] I'll move on and come

9 back to it. I'm move on and come back to it.

10 MR. WHITING: Well, I mean, I wouldn't have an objection to it

11 just being read to him and the answers --

12 JUDGE THELIN: Okay. We'll dispense with the Albanian version for

13 this question then.

14 Please go ahead, Mr. Guy-Smith.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH:

16 Q. I have to take you back to this Shala because to avoid mistakes

17 in the future I just want to you describe him. His appearance? Yes. He

18 was 33 or 34, tall, with a long face, dark, with an injured leg, and he

19 lives in Shala. All the time until they took him to the position, to my

20 position, he used to stay in the guest room there in Lapusnik, and he did

21 some sort of job there. Okay. But do you think there could be any

22 possibilities for the prisoners, for example, to have mixed between these

23 two Shalas?

24 And your answer, sir: "There is a -- there is a kind of

25 congruence because the two did stay the same place, because Haradin was

Page 4794

1 there for two weeks and because he [unintelligible] and this one stayed

2 there about two months or so."

3 Question: "Go ahead. Is it only because of the name or could --

4 could you mix them up because of their appearance?"

5 Your answer, sir: "They do resemble each other rather well, but

6 only this one has no moustache."

7 Now, when you gave those answers discussing the Shalas, you were

8 telling the truth then, weren't you? You had no failure of memory then,

9 did you?

10 A. Yes. No. My memory hasn't left me even now.

11 MR. WHITING: Your Honour.

12 JUDGE THELIN: Mr. Whiting.

13 MR. WHITING: I would just note there was a compound question

14 there, and the response I think is quite clear to the second part of the

15 question.

16 JUDGE THELIN: Maybe you should put the first part again,

17 Mr. Guy-Smith, for clarity.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. GUY-SMITH:

20 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... Shalas, you were telling the truth

21 then, weren't you?

22 A. I have said the truth. Because one of them was younger. And he

23 wasn't walking straight; he was walking rather lamely. And he didn't wear

24 a moustache. The other one was older. He had a moustache.

25 Q. Do you recall when you first told Mr. Lehtinen about your diary?

Page 4798

1 that. I am responsible for what I'm telling you here.

2 Q. Well, in all of these statements that you've made, did you ever

3 tell anybody that Shala - and by this Shala I am referring to Haradin

4 Bala - was present at a time when you were slapping women?

5 A. I don't know I've said this and that we were slapping. If someone

6 has slapped someone else, it was me who questioned the person and not

7 Shala or someone else.

8 Q. I understand that. You did admit to slapping a woman, and you

9 said that at the time that Shala was behind you. Was that Shala 1 or

10 Shala 2?

11 A. Sir, I don't know who Shala number 1 and Shala number 2 are.

12 Shala, who is from Shale village, he had other duties.

13 But as to women, slapping women, there are two women concerned. I

14 don't know what you mean. One of them I didn't slap. I just questioned

15 her. The other I slapped once.

16 Q. The woman that you claim to have slapped once, you told us the

17 other day that at the time that occurred that Shala was standing behind

18 you. Was that the Shala who was from the village of Shale?

19 A. No. He couldn't be there. When I slapped that woman, we were out

20 in the field. As to the other woman that I questioned, that happened in

21 the room of a house. I don't remember to have slapped her. I don't think

22 so.

23 Q. With regard to any women that you have questioned or had contact

24 with, is it your present testimony that Shala - and by that I mean the

25 individual that you have identified as Shala - also known as Haradin Bala,

Page 4799

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4800

1 was not present? Is that your testimony? He was never present?

2 A. He was not present in the field in that case concerning two women,

3 one of whom I slapped. In the second case, when we were inside, what was

4 present was the guard.

5 Q. The guard that was present, is it your testimony that guard was

6 not Shala? I'm suggesting to you that it was not Haradin Bala who was

7 there. That's the truth, isn't it?

8 A. I know that it was the guard who was present from the beginning

9 and until the end. This is what I'm saying. But I don't know he was

10 present at the moment that I interrogated that woman. I am not 100

11 per cent sure. I think he was, but I'm not 100 per cent sure. The guard

12 was there.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Would this be a convenient time?

15 JUDGE THELIN: I think it would, Mr. Guy-Smith. And due to the

16 redaction, as you know, we need to take a longer break than usual, which

17 means that we will break now and reconvene at ten past 4.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

20 JUDGE THELIN: First of all, I'd like to inform you that the

21 prospects of having Judge Parker joining us today have dimmed

22 considerably, so order will not be restored until tomorrow, I'm afraid.

23 But in the meantime, Mr. Guy-Smith.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.

25 Q. Now, apart from the interviews that we've discussed, you also made

Page 4801

1 a statement which was the result of your contact with members of the

2 Prosecution over a series of days in the months of -- in the months of

3 December 2003, January 2004, and February 2004; correct?

4 A. Yes. I don't know for how many days, but yes.

5 Q. That took a considerable period of time, did it not? Without

6 discussing how many specific days it was. Right?

7 A. It was within this period of time that you mentioned, two, three

8 days maybe.

9 Q. But when you say two or three days, do you mean the entire process

10 of your statement drafting took two or three days?

11 A. It was each time for several hours a day. I don't know exactly

12 how many days.

13 Q. Do you recall having a discussion with Mr. Mansfield sometime last

14 week with regard to the number of days that it took for you to draft your

15 statement?

16 A. I remember that this was discussed, but I don't know how many days

17 it took for the statement to be prepared, for things that been said to be

18 repeated, for some photographs that I hadn't seen before. Mainly this was

19 it.

20 Q. With regard to the drafting process of this statement, during that

21 period of time did you -- did you go through a review of your previous

22 interviews with the Prosecution and make corrections to those matters that

23 were to your then memory incorrect?

24 A. The statement was discussed, but I don't think I had a statement,

25 a previous statement like that one, like the one in May or June. I didn't

Page 4802

1 have such a statement.

2 Q. Well, were subject matters discussed in which it was pointed out

3 to you that you had made mistakes with regard to certain facts that you

4 had asserted were existing?

5 A. I wasn't told that a mistake was made, but what was repeated at

6 all times was that I have to speak the truth, the things that are entirely

7 true.

8 Q. Well, as you sit here today, it's true, is it not, that Haradin

9 Bala came to Lapusnik right after May 9th? And by "right after" I mean

10 within a couple of days after May 9th.

11 A. Yes, by the end of May. I don't know when exactly it was but the

12 end may have.

13 Q. I'm suggesting to you it was the beginning of May, right after the

14 battle of May 9th, that Mr. Bala was present no later than the 11th or

15 12th of May.

16 A. It could be so, but I didn't see him before that.

17 Q. And I'm also suggesting to you that he stayed, as you've indicated

18 in the matter that we just discussed but a moment ago when you were making

19 a distinguish -- any distinction between the congruent Shalas, that he

20 stayed for approximately two weeks and then left Lapusnik.

21 MR. WHITING: I'm going to object.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23 MR. WHITING: The way the question is phrased, I think it's

24 misstating the evidence. It's suggesting he has said that when that's

25 simply not the case. I just think it's a confusing question.

Page 4803

1 JUDGE THELIN: Can we have the basis, Mr. Guy-Smith?

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. Page 31: "There is a kind of congruence

3 because the two did stay in the same place, because Haradin, er, was there

4 for two weeks, and because he [unintelligble] and this one, referring to

5 the other Shala, stayed there for about two months or so." That Shala

6 being the one that he referred to on page 30, as 33 to 34, tall, with a

7 long face, dark, and with an injured leg. He lives in Shale.

8 MR. WHITING: If I may, the reference there is to Lapusnik. It's

9 to the kitchen in Gzim's compound. That's what he's talking about, not

10 staying two weeks in Lapusnik.

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Now we're into a matter of interpretation about

12 what the reference is but --

13 JUDGE THELIN: I will sustain the objection, Mr. Guy-Smith, so if

14 you want to pursue, you need to take another line.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH:

16 Q. I am suggesting to you, sir, that you did see Haradin Bala at

17 Lapusnik. You saw him at the beginning of May, right after the battle of

18 May 9th and that he stayed there for approximately two weeks, and

19 thereafter you did not see him anymore. Isn't that the truth?

20 A. No, this is not the truth. I've never said this. What I've said

21 is that one of the Shalas stayed there for about two weeks and took some

22 administrative notes. The other Shala -- both Shalas remained in Lapusnik

23 until the end.

24 Q. Now, when you gave your statement over a period of some days, at

25 that time similar to the time that you've testified to here today, you

Page 4804

1 once again were telling the truth; correct?

2 A. I was telling the truth even then. Even then I said that both of

3 them remained in Lapusnik until the end. I didn't say that one of them

4 left.

5 Q. I'm referring to your general approach to the making of those

6 statements, sir, because you've told us that in each statement that you've

7 made you've told the truth, and once again I'm trying to make a

8 determination with regard to the last statement, which is a statement that

9 you signed, that during that process you were telling the truth. Correct?

10 A. As I said, with the exception that I mixed up the two Shalas, I

11 have told the truth.

12 Q. Good. Now, with regard to the statement that you made -- you

13 signed, when you made that statement, by that time your memory was quite

14 good; correct?

15 A. I believe, yes.

16 Q. And with regard to your relationship to Haradin Bala, you were

17 quite clear in your statement as to what precisely was your relationship

18 with him, weren't you?

19 A. As I said, I was on good terms with everybody. As for Haradin,

20 even at that time I thought that he wasn't a person who would cause -- or

21 harm someone. And I am even of this opinion today. I have never seen him

22 committing any harm to anyone, and I don't think he did so.

23 Q. I appreciate -- I appreciate your opinion in that regard, but I'm

24 asking you a slightly different question at this time, which deals with

25 the fact that you told the Prosecutor in your statement - and I'm

Page 4805

1 referring to paragraph 102, Mr. Younis - that you were good friends with

2 Haradin; right? This is something we talked about last week.

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And what you said in your statement was --

5 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry. We have the Albanian version and if it

6 could just be put before the witness and him given an opportunity to look

7 at it before the questions proceed.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Surely.

9 Q. Have you had an opportunity to take a look at paragraph 102?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In that paragraph, you say a series of things. You've never heard

12 anyone speaking a bad word about Haradin Bala. He was an obedient man,

13 and I don't think he dared to disagree with any orders that were given to

14 him. But I'd like to focus in on the next sentence because this is

15 actually something we discussed last week.

16 You said: "After the war I met Haradin a lot of times and we have

17 become good friends."

18 A. I didn't say that. I have met him after the war. We were friends

19 during the war and after the war.

20 Q. Well, my question, then: Is that information, the information

21 that's contained in the statement that you signed, that being: "After the

22 war I've met Haradin a lot of times," that's not true, is it? That's a

23 false statement. Correct?

24 A. Not frequently. Frequently can refer to seeing him on a daily

25 basis, weekly basis. I haven't seen him frequently. I might have met him

Page 4806

1 two, three, four times maximum.

2 Q. Okay. Four times maximum. And then you go on to say: "And we

3 have become good friends."

4 Now, is that information, the information that's contained in the

5 statement, that you have become good friends with Haradin Bala, that's not

6 true, is it?

7 A. I said that we were friends during the war and after the war.

8 There was nothing bad between us. Friends in Albanian, the word "miq,"

9 with refer to also in-law relationships.

10 Q. But that's not my question, sir. It says here: "We have become

11 good friends." I take it that you have not become good friends with

12 Haradin Bala having met him a maximum, as you put it, of four times after

13 the war. You're not good friends with this man, are you?

14 A. We were all friends during the war and after the war. I don't

15 know how you assess that, a good friend or a bad friend, but there was

16 nothing bad going on between us.

17 Q. I suggest to you that after the war you didn't meet Mr. Bala at

18 all.

19 A. This is what you think. I have met him during manifestations and

20 social life in several places.

21 Q. I further suggest to you, sir, that during the period of time that

22 you saw Mr. Bala at Lapusnik at the beginning of May, you became aware of

23 the fact that he had a heart problem. Isn't that true?

24 A. No. I didn't know that he had a problem, a heart problem, at that

25 time. Maybe -- I don't remember. Maybe he had a problem, but I don't

Page 4807

1 remember that.

2 Q. Is it your testimony that you learned about Mr. Bala's heart

3 problem as your friendship was budding after the war?

4 A. I could have learnt about his heart problem from others, but even

5 from him. I've met also people whom I knew from Lapusnik and in general.

6 Q. So as you sit here right now you can't tell us how you learned

7 about Mr. Bala's heart condition nor when you learned about Mr. Bala's

8 heart condition; correct?

9 A. I don't know exactly when I learned this.

10 Q. I'd like to go back to the issue of the prison camp, if I could.

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Mr. Younis, with your assistance, page 241 of the

12 statement. This would be June 18th.

13 Q. During the time that you were having discussions with the members

14 of the Prosecution, the subject matter of who was present at this prison

15 camp when the prisoners were released came up; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you identified with some specificity who those individuals

18 were, did you not?

19 A. No. I don't know that even today. What I know is that 26 were

20 released.

21 Q. I'm sorry. Apart from prisoners, you also identified with some

22 specificity the guards who were present; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you identified them in the following manner, having been asked

25 the following question: "Okay. Do you know who was actually in the

Page 4808

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4809

1 prison camp when the prisoners were released?"

2 And your answer was: "It was Ymer."

3 He's dead; correct? You don't say that in here, but Ymer, that's

4 Ymer Alushani, he's dead; correct?

5 A. Yes. I cannot read it at the moment, but yes, that's how it was.

6 Now I've found it.

7 Q. "In that he had taken the can and the ammunition and Zenel" --

8 we've talked about Zenel before. He was the individual who claimed to be

9 part of the French Foreign Legion or the Foreign Legion; right?

10 A. I cannot find it here, but this is what I said. I didn't say that

11 I took the cannon. It was Zenel that took the cannon.

12 Q. And you also identified a third person being present in the prison

13 camp when the prisoners were released, and that was Timi; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You say: "Those three were there." True?

16 MR. WHITING: Your Honour.

17 JUDGE THELIN: Mr. Whiting.

18 MR. WHITING: This witness has this before him in English, and I

19 would just ask that the -- rather than reading just little bits and pieces

20 and then asking questions, if the whole passage -- because he then says

21 that this is something he heard later in Klecka. But if it could be read

22 to him and he could understand the full thing of what's being said before

23 questions are put to him in bits and pieces. I don't think it's a fair

24 way of proceeding without reading the whole passage.

25 JUDGE THELIN: Mr. Guy-Smith, I suggest you follow that line.

Page 4810

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.

2 Q. "Okay. Do you know who was actually in the prison camp when the

3 prisoners were released?"

4 "It was -- it was Ymer and that he had taken the cannon and the

5 ammunition, and Zenel and Timi. Those three were there."

6 That's what you said; right?

7 A. This is what I heard, that they were there in the morning.

8 Q. Now, to identify who those three individuals were, Ymer Alushani

9 is an individual who we have had some discussion about. He's dead;

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Zenel is the individual you identified as being part of the

13 Foreign Legion. True?

14 A. This is what he said, yes.

15 Q. And Timi is a young man who also is dead; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, you were then asked the following question by Mr.

18 Lehtinen: "In -- in the prison camp?"

19 And your answer is: "Yes."

20 Right?

21 A. Yes, I can see that.

22 Q. You then go -- you then get the following question and the

23 following answer: "Okay. And where did you hear this from?" Right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you answer: "A few days later they sent me to Klecka. I

Page 4811

1 heard it from friends, soldiers." Right?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. During your discussion with the members of the Prosecution, you

4 did not mention at any time that either Shala, that being Haradin Bala or

5 Ruzhdi Karpuzi, were present at the prison camp when the prisoners were

6 released, did you?

7 A. No, maybe I didn't mention him. It is true that I didn't mention

8 him. When they were released, I didn't see them. I didn't see Zenel or

9 Timi. I didn't see any of them. I heard about this. This is what I

10 said.

11 Q. I appreciate that, sir, and what I am suggesting to you is the

12 reason you didn't mention anyone with the name of Shala, whether it be

13 Mr. Karpuzi or Mr. Bala, was because that was not information that you

14 had. You were given quite specific information about who was present and

15 that is the information that you conveyed to the Prosecution; right?

16 A. As I said earlier, nobody gave me any information, and nobody even

17 suggested that I should say anything. On the contrary. They said that I

18 should tell the truth and only the truth and I abided to this, both for

19 myself and others. If I needed to lie, I wouldn't have spoken about a

20 part of my life, but because of the truth, I have told that then and I'm

21 telling it now.

22 Q. I understand what you're saying, sir, and what I'm saying to you

23 is that on June 18th, when you were asked questions about the guards who

24 were present, the information that you gave them, which you have just told

25 us is the truth did not include Haradin Bala, did it? His name was not

Page 4812

1 mentioned because that was a name that you did not have in your possession

2 at that time as being present at the time the prisoners were released;

3 right?

4 A. I had his name and disposition since 1998. I haven't mentioned

5 it. I don't know why, but the fact is that I knew the name. Either they

6 didn't ask about it ...

7 Q. Well, with regard to whether or not you were asked or not, it's

8 pretty clear that what we've been discussing here is a question that was

9 asked of you as to who was actually present at the time the prisoners were

10 released and your response; right?

11 A. Yes, it is. And this is what I heard, not what I've seen.

12 Q. I appreciate your answer, sir. What I'm getting to is that in

13 your response you identified specific individuals. You identified a

14 place. You identify that you had heard the information, and did you not

15 in any fashion whatsoever indicate that Haradin Bala was part of that

16 particular cabbala, did you?

17 A. I didn't say that I didn't hear that he was part of it. Maybe

18 what I've heard is that the prisoners were released and that Haradin Bala

19 had no more tasks.

20 Q. Clearly that's something you would have said on June 18th if

21 that's something you'd heard, wouldn't you?

22 A. If they had asked me about it, I would have told them that, on

23 the 18th of June and later.

24 Q. So the failure then for any mention of Haradin Bala's name is

25 because you weren't asked. Is that your testimony?

Page 4816

1 you for all of my questions so don't part with it if you'd be so kind.

2 You're also going to need to have other documents as well.

3 In light of the answers to the questions I've just asked, I want

4 you to look, please, at paragraphs 9, 10, and 11 of that statement that

5 you signed.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And for the benefit of the interpreters, I'm going to both take

8 this slowly and I'm going to paraphrase paragraphs 9, 10 and 11. If I

9 miss anything out that's important, Mr. Whiting will deal with it later.

10 Paragraph 9 deals with a period from 1983 to 1986, I suggest, if

11 you read the totality of your statement, and it says: "During the next

12 few years, I travelled in Europe buying and selling goods and doing

13 occasional jobs. I travelled between Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary

14 and Italy, coming back to Kosova every two to three months."

15 First question: What goods are you talking about there?

16 A. These were all goods that were permissible to be traded under the

17 law. Various goods. The Romanian government was interested, and the

18 Turkish government, and many Eastern countries were interested in such

19 goods, boots, Adidas boots, watches, trousers, things like that.

20 Q. Were they stolen goods?

21 A. No. No. They were purchased in one country. For example, in

22 Turkey, they were not original goods, and they were sold. We had to

23 leave. I didn't have a job, so I had to live on something, and this was a

24 way, a possible way for me to live.

25 Q. The statement goes on. "From 1986 onwards, I dealt with cars.

Page 4817

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4818

1 This was not an official business but just my way of making a living for

2 my family."

3 Were these stolen cars that you were trading in?

4 A. No. Absolutely no. They had to be sold. If one of them was

5 identified as such, that is as stolen, you might end up in gaol. So I

6 took care not to engage in stolen cars trade.

7 Q. From 1990 onwards, it goes on, it says: "I was involved in

8 illegal import of weapons to Kosovo together with my good friend Ymer

9 Alushani."

10 It goes on in the paragraph as follows: "The business was risky,

11 and I only sold weapons to persons that I trusted and whom I knew wouldn't

12 talk and boast about it."

13 Have you read that yourself there in that statement, Witness?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. Is it true what you say there?

16 A. It's not true with respect to the import. To import something

17 means to bring some good from one country to another. But it is true that

18 I purchased them and that I sold some of them. That's true.

19 Q. And is it true when you say you only sold these illegally imported

20 weapons to persons that you trusted? Is that the truth?

21 A. Yes, that's the truth.

22 Q. Are you absolutely sure about that?

23 A. None of the weapons I sold to people, none of them was sought by

24 the law. All of them were used in the war.

25 Q. If you listen to me carefully, there's a fair chance you'll leave

Page 4819

1 that witness box sooner rather than later.

2 Is it true when you told the Prosecutor in a signed statement that

3 you "only sold weapons to persons that I trusted"? Was that the truth?

4 A. Yes, that's the truth.

5 Q. Well, then, could you explain why, please, on the 15th of March of

6 this year, day 51 of this trial, you sat in that chair and told this

7 Tribunal that only part of them that you sold were to people you trusted?

8 Was it only some of them or was it all of them? Which is the truth, what

9 you said here on oath or what you said in this statement?

10 MR. WHITING: Excuse me. Could I please have a page reference

11 for that.

12 MR. TOPOLSKI: I'm afraid it's the unperfected version. It's day

13 day 51, it's page 7, line 5. "Part of them I sold to people I trusted."

14 MR. WHITING: Thank you.

15 MR. TOPOLSKI: Can I apologise to Mr. Whiting. All of my

16 references from transcripts, I'm afraid, are the unrevised ones. I

17 apologise. I'm not trusted with the revised ones for some reason.

18 MR. WHITING: I have the unrevised ones as well.

19 MR. TOPOLSKI: Well, you're not trusted either.

20 Q. Now which is the truth: All or just part were sold to friends you

21 trusted, Witness?

22 A. I think I already stated a large part of the weapons I did not

23 sell. I kept them at home. Another part, smaller part, I sold, and what

24 I sold, I sold to people whom I trusted.

25 Q. You agree you were, before the war, a gunrunner. This was an

Page 4820

1 illegal import of weapons into Kosovo for profit, wasn't it?

2 A. The Serbian army distributed weapons to the Serbs. So it was the

3 wish of each and every Albanian to possess a weapon, even though it was

4 considered a criminal offence if it was found that an Albanian was engaged

5 in that.

6 Q. Did you donate the funds you made to the KLA, or did you put them

7 in your pocket?

8 A. There were no funds. I may say that usually I sold a weapon at

9 the same price I bought it. Maybe sometimes for 100 Marks more,

10 Deutschmarks. I only wanted to provide weapons to the people who wanted

11 them.

12 Q. And when you made a profit of 100 Marks or more, what did you do

13 with the profit? Did you put it in your pocket or did you give it to the

14 KLA, which?

15 A. I -- of course I put it in my own pocket, and I didn't give it to

16 anyone. I used it for something else.

17 Q. You're not a hypocrite?

18 A. I don't get what you are wanting to tell me. When it was a

19 question -- when I was dealing with guns, I didn't know about the

20 existence of the KLA. What I had to pay to the Kosovo provisional

21 government I did so regularly.

22 Q. You were asked a number of questions last week about your

23 involvement in the world of drugs. You recollect being asked a large

24 number of questions concerning that, I'm sure.

25 A. Yes. Yes, very well.

Page 4821

1 Q. You were at pains to tell us on a number of occasions that you

2 were not a drug dealer. You were somebody who simply mediated between the

3 buyer and the seller. That's your position, isn't it?

4 A. Yes. I've told you what was true.

5 Q. I suggested to you a little earlier that you perhaps were part of

6 a renegade group within the KLA. I want you to turn -- and you denied it.

7 I want you to turn, please, to paragraph 49 of the statement in front of

8 you.

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, it would be far easier for Your

11 Honours to follow this part and other parts of my cross-examination were

12 you to have the statement. I think Mr. Khan is happy with that and so is

13 Mr. Guy-Smith. Would it assist Your Honours to have a copy of the

14 statement in front of you?

15 JUDGE THELIN: If you're going to dwell on this at some length,

16 certainly it would be of assistance. So we would be happy to read

17 whatever you want to put in front of us.

18 MR. TOPOLSKI: I hope I won't dwell and I hope it won't be at

19 excessive length but I need to put some of it. Are there copies

20 available? No, all right.

21 JUDGE THELIN: It's your part now so you should have provided us

22 with it if you wanted to do it, but we don't need it.

23 MR. TOPOLSKI: I'll read it.

24 Q. This is -- this is paragraph 49 under the heading "Start of the

25 war."

Page 4822

1 "In the spring of 1998, I became part of Ymer Alushani's group of

2 fighters called Zjarri, meaning fire. This group did some sporadic

3 operations against Serb interests, but mostly it was a matter of being

4 prepared for the war. I didn't call myself a KLA soldier even if I was

5 preparing for war ... I felt that I became a member of the KLA when I

6 joined this group, but for the above-mentioned reason I didn't admit

7 it..."

8 And in paragraph 50, you tell the Prosecutor in your statement

9 that the group consisted of friends of Ymer's, that you arranged for some

10 more rare arms that were hard to get, and the group in Likovc had a

11 general plan for organising the army, but Ymer would have formed this

12 group with or without their permission.

13 MR. TOPOLSKI: First of all, could I interrupt myself and hand up

14 to the Court -- the Tribunal, sorry.

15 Q. This Zjarri unit was no part of the KLA, was it?

16 A. This was until 10 or 12th of May.

17 Q. Let's just look at what you told this Tribunal last week about the

18 work of this group. Day 51, for Mr. Whiting's benefit, page 26 of the

19 unrevised transcript.

20 "In addition to getting prepared," you told us last week,

21 Witness, "sometimes we also used to escort somebody. On one occasion I

22 escorted somebody to Orahovac. There was nothing major that we did."

23 Do you remember telling us that on oath last week?

24 A. I didn't say so. I didn't escort myself. I said that we escorted

25 up to Orahovac. If I have said "we have escorted," I didn't mean myself.

Page 4823

1 Q. You know what's coming, don't you? Because Mr. Whiting then asks

2 you what you meant by the word "escort." Do you remember what you told

3 him last week from that chair that the word "escort" meant?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What?

6 A. It means to accompany somebody.

7 Q. That's a lie. That's a downright, deliberate, blatant, barefaced

8 lie, isn't it?

9 A. You said that you yourself have escorted. My point is that I have

10 never myself been involved in the escort of -- alone. We have been three

11 persons that went to Orahovac.

12 Q. Question from Mr. Whiting: "What do you mean you tried to escort

13 him?"

14 Your answer on oath on a transcript. Listen to me: "We followed

15 him. I mean, we follow him. We wanted to kill him."

16 "Escort" means assassinate, doesn't it?

17 A. The entire escort operation had the intention of killing. You

18 might use whatever word you like, escort or whatever, but our goal was to

19 kill that person.

20 Q. Please be good enough, Witness, not to put words in my mouth. You

21 were the one who came up with the word "escort," and when Mr. Whiting

22 perfectly properly pressed you as to what it meant, you told us last week

23 that it was meaning to kill. On one occasion you said, "We went to

24 someone, told him not to hang around with Serbs or Serbian secret service

25 people, these kinds of things."

Page 4824

1 You were a hit squad, weren't you? You were a sadistic bully

2 during this part of the war, weren't you?

3 A. That's not true. We told this person not to mix up, not to meddle

4 with the Serbs, that's true, but not in the sense that you are putting to

5 me as a sadistic bully. This I don't accept.

6 Q. Do you not deny that you tried to kill him?

7 A. No, I don't deny that. This is what we were after, killing him.

8 Q. Quite. Let's just before I go in to ask you a number of different

9 questions regarding different parts of the evidence that you've given us

10 over the last five and a half days, I want to ask -- see if you and I can

11 agree some sort of chronology of important dates. I'll use a neutral

12 term.

13 (redacted), a member of your family was alleged

14 to have been involved in drug supplying. Do you agree?

15 A. This is what was claimed.

16 Q. (redacted), these defendants made their

17 first appearances before this Tribunal in The Hague. Do you recollect

18 seeing that on television and reading about it in newspapers?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. We'll come back to an aspect of that a little later on.

21 On the 27th of May, 2003, as we've been hearing at some length

22 over the last few days, you were interviewed by the investigators for the

23 OTP, were you not?

24 A. Yes, that's true.

25 JUDGE THELIN: Mr. Whiting.

Page 4825

1 MR. WHITING: Just out of an abundance of caution, could we redact

2 the date which appears at page 54, line 23? It could -- it could identify

3 the witness.

4 JUDGE THELIN: That should be redacted.

5 MR. TOPOLSKI: Forgive me. It's sometimes difficult to appreciate

6 what might --

7 JUDGE THELIN: It was a close call.

8 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, I hope I will err on the side of

9 caution in this regard for the rest of the time on my feet.

10 Q. We got to the 27th of May, 2003, and your lengthy interview.

11 17th and 18th of June of 2003, you were of course interviewed at even

12 greater length, were you not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On the 13th of July, so just under one month later, the --

15 MR. TOPOLSKI: And we better go into private session for this, I

16 think, for the same reason.

17 JUDGE THELIN:

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4826

11 Page 4826 redacted. Private session.

Page 4827

11 Page 4827 redacted. Private session.

Page 4828

11 Page 4828 redacted. Private session.

Page 4829

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

20 MR. TOPOLSKI:

21 Q. Would I be right in suggesting that your cooperation with the

22 Office of the Prosecutor and investigators, your statements, your

23 interviews, indeed your evidence here all came about because you could see

24 a way of avoiding prosecution for your own crimes during the war? Would I

25 be right in suggesting that, Witness?

Page 4830

1 A. My crimes committed during the war? That was the question?

2 Q. Yes, it was.

3 A. I don't think so. This was never mentioned.

4 Q. Well, we'll look at some of your crimes later. Was your

5 cooperation with the Office of the Prosecutor and investigators, your

6 statements, your interviews, indeed your evidence here all come about

7 because you could see a way of avoiding gaol for drug dealing, for

8 possession of firearms and a hand grenade?

9 A. That's not true. I possessed arms even before the war, when it

10 was considered even more dangerous and you might face a greater sentence.

11 I didn't care, and I still possessed weapons.

12 Q. I want to move on now to deal with various aspects of your

13 evidence as I indicated that I would, and I'm going to take the headings

14 from the same headings that appear - not all of them - in your witness

15 statement, and I'm going to start with one or two questions regarding your

16 diary. Do you understand?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I want to ask you about the purpose of this diary. This was

19 secret, was it, between you and the pieces of paper you were writing on?

20 A. Every diary is a secret document. It's meant to be kept for

21 yourself, and this is what I did. I knew I had it in me. I didn't

22 mention it at all because I believed it was my personal property.

23 Q. Were you in any way, in any sense reluctant to hand this diary

24 over to investigators?

25 A. I was reluctant. I didn't want to give it over, but when they

Page 4831

1 asked me, I did.

2 Q. This wasn't for publication, this diary. Indeed, it wasn't for

3 the sight of anyone else in the world. Is that your evidence?

4 A. Every diary is for oneself. This is what I consider mine there

5 were other parts in it which I had to fill in. It was only a beginning.

6 I had put down some notes there.

7 Q. Please be good enough to answer my question. It wasn't for the

8 sight of anyone else in the world. Is that your evidence?

9 A. Yes. And I had never shown it to anyone.

10 Q. Therefore, it was a place, this diary, a document that could

11 contain your deepest, darkest secrets, couldn't it?

12 A. I said that I had -- it contained my impressions and notes about

13 some days of the war and nothing about the post-wartime.

14 Q. I want to understand, Witness. Is it your evidence regarding this

15 diary that when one reads it one could anticipate that somewhere it would

16 contain everything that happened to you that was important and of

17 significance? Is that the position regarding this diary?

18 A. Yes, some things which were of importance to me. These were the

19 things that I wrote about, but in brief.

20 Q. We'll come back to what is not there later. I want to move on to

21 another heading I'm stealing from your statement, and that is "Location."

22 Are you aware that Ruzhdi Karpuzi has given evidence before this

23 Tribunal?

24 A. Yes. I heard about that, but I didn't see it with my own eyes. I

25 read about it in the media.

Page 4832

1 Q. You allege in your statement to the investigators, your long

2 statement, that in paragraph 30, Ruzhdi Karpuzi from Sedlare was

3 responsible for keeping records and collecting and filing statements made

4 by the prisoners. Paragraph 30. Was that true?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are you aware that on his oath Ruzhdi Karpuzi has denied

7 emphatically that allegation?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Well, I'm telling you that he has, and bearing in mind that he

10 has, it follows, therefore, that one of you isn't telling the truth about

11 this. That follows, doesn't it? Are you the liar or is he?

12 A. This is what it turns out to be, but he is responsible for what he

13 has testified here. I am responsible for mine. If what he said comes to

14 be true, then I will be responsible for what I say.

15 Q. Let's move on, please, to another paragraph under the heading

16 of "Location" in your statement. Paragraph 47.

17 "I will later describe all the occasions when I visited this

18 compound," and that's what you're talking about, the compound, "where

19 prisoners were held. I didn't go there a lot of times because I hated the

20 fact that people were kept in those circumstances, and I didn't want to be

21 seen there."

22 Do you see that in your statement?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is that paragraph true?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 4833

1 Q. And you're not a hypocrite?

2 A. Why do you say that?

3 Q. If you hated it so much, why did you keep going back and

4 mistreating people who were there?

5 A. I hated it because many people were taken there on basis of

6 speculation, without any ground, evidence, and that violence was used

7 against them. That's why I hated the place. I had to go because I had

8 to, but not to maltreat or mistreat someone.

9 Q. So you are someone who deeply believes in the principles of

10 justice, do you?

11 A. I am not acquainted with laws or with conventions, but I do know

12 the human laws. I know what is good and what is bad.

13 Q. And you're not a hypocrite?

14 A. You might say so, but I'm telling you that I know not the laws but

15 know only what is human and inhuman.

16 Q. Why didn't you confide in your diary your hatred of this place and

17 the way that other human beings were being treated if it be true?

18 A. I couldn't get hold of other notes which certainly must exist

19 somewhere. I told you, I didn't play much importance to that -- didn't

20 pay much importance to that diary thinking that I would come back to it

21 another time when I had more time.

22 Q. No. What you didn't pay much importance to was the maltreatment

23 you were dishing out to people in that place as part of this renegade

24 group that you were a proud member of. That's what wasn't important to

25 you, wasn't it?

Page 4834

1 A. Of course. This was the title that Serbia gave us, terrorists and

2 renegades. I was not a renegade. I didn't maltreat anyone. If I did so,

3 I'm certain that that person or those persons would one day come to this

4 court and testify against me.

5 With respect to what you are saying about protection, I am telling

6 you that I want that protection to be lifted. I don't want protection

7 from anyone.

8 Q. Well, you're going to get protection from me and from this

9 Tribunal, so you can't play that game with us.

10 I want to be clear: Is it your evidence on your oath that you did

11 not maltreat anyone?

12 A. I'm not saying -- I am saying that I didn't maltreat anyone with

13 the exception of a slap I might have given to someone, and this I don't

14 see. I don't consider this as a maltreatment.

15 Q. We'll come back to things you did. I want to ask you about a

16 document you were asked to look at some time ago now.

17 MR. TOPOLSKI: I wonder if through the usher the witness could be

18 provided with the bundle of exhibits.

19 Q. And I want you to go, please, to tab 14. Of this document. It's

20 tab 14, the travel permit.

21 JUDGE THELIN: Maybe we could get the exhibit number from

22 Mr. Whiting.

23 MR. WHITING: 171.

24 MR. TOPOLSKI: 171. I know if I dally long enough, Mr. Younis

25 will help. Thank you. 171, please.

Page 4835

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4836

1 May I ask when Your Honour is thinking of taking a break so I can

2 keep an eye on the clock.

3 JUDGE THELIN: I think another ten minutes.

4 MR. TOPOLSKI: Very well.

5 Q. Now, this is what has been called a travel permit. And I just

6 want to remind you at day 51, page 73 of the unrevised transcript, what

7 you said about this document, so would you please be good enough to listen

8 to me.

9 Mr. Whiting asked you: "Do you recognise that document?"

10 And your reply was: "Yes, I do. This was how these travel

11 permits were organised or issued. This is how they were formulated. I

12 think this is a little bit longer than what I used -- was used to, but

13 this is more or less it."

14 Question from Mr. Whiting: "And you would use these travel

15 permits during June and July of 1998?"

16 Answer: "Yes. It was not possible to leave the position without

17 having permission to leave it."

18 Question: "And on this, this example, it's signed by a commander.

19 In Lapusnik, would it be signed by Qerqiz?"

20 And in answer to that leading question you said: "Yes, Qerqizi."

21 Now, did you provide this travel permit to the investigators,

22 Witness?

23 A. No. No, I just saw that travel permit.

24 Q. I wonder if you would be good enough to look at the original,

25 U0023034, that's in Albanian, and I'd like you to put it alongside the

Page 4837

1 typed copy.

2 There's a rather important thing missing, I suggest. After the

3 word "Celiku" in the typed version is simply a closed quotation mark,

4 isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In the original, it's V, a Roman V, isn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This travel permit, if that's what it is, seems to have come out

9 of a unit called Celiku V therefore. Do you agree?

10 A. Yes. Yes, but what I said was that that travel document resembled

11 this one.

12 Q. I know you did. Where was Celiku V during the war?

13 A. I don't know exactly. I think it was somewhere in Lladrovc or

14 Terpeze. I don't know where their base was.

15 Q. Who was its commander?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. What about the person who signed this travel permit?

18 A. Yes, I know this person as a name.

19 Q. Thank you. You can put those away.

20 We're dealing with this part of your statement in evidence that

21 relates to the start of the war. I want to ask you this: When you were

22 in Lapusnik, did you have a beard?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When you went to the Llap zone later on in 1998, did you have a

25 beard?

Page 4838

1 A. For some time.

2 Q. And by the way, did you ever tell anyone in the world that you

3 were a commander in the Llap zone during the war?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Think very, very carefully before you answer that question. Did

6 you ever tell anyone in the world that you were a commander in the Llap

7 zone?

8 A. I said no, because my profession was that of to be a commander of

9 my own self there.

10 Q. Well, let's leave philosophy to one side, shall we.

11 You never were a commander of anything or anyone, were you, during

12 the war?

13 A. As I said, profession is something else. With my profession, I

14 couldn't be someone's commander.

15 Q. So if you have ever told anyone that you were a commander in the

16 Llap zone, that would be a lie, wouldn't it?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. I want to move on to another aspect of your evidence still under

19 the same general heading and that is discipline of soldiers. You gave us

20 an account last week of the sending home of another soldier. Do you

21 remember telling us about that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And do you remember telling us why it was that this man was,

24 according to you, dismissed?

25 A. I have told you that. Because of drinking.

Page 4839

1 Q. That's simply not true, is it?

2 A. This is very true.

3 Q. He was sent home because he was terribly sick, ill. Nothing to do

4 with beer at all, was it?

5 A. He stayed there for another ten days or two weeks waiting for his

6 weapon to be returned. If he was sick, he would have gone to see a doctor

7 or to the hospital.

8 Q. He was so sick he was sent from Lapusnik not because of beer

9 drinking. That's right, isn't it?

10 A. This is not correct.

11 Q. I want to move on to something else. You have told us that you

12 were never disarmed. Was that the truth?

13 A. That's true.

14 Q. Again, Witness, I urge you to be careful and take your time. Are

15 you saying you were never disarmed during the war?

16 A. Never. There were intentions to do so, but I was never disarmed.

17 Q. I'm going to suggest to you that not only were you disarmed but

18 you were disarmed by Qerqiz, and I'm going to suggest to you that you were

19 disarmed by Qerqiz for a very specific reason. Do you agree or do you

20 disagree?

21 A. This never happened.

22 Q. Yes, it did. And what's more I'm going to tell you when it

23 happened. It happened somewhere in the last week of May of 1998. But you

24 deny that?

25 A. This is not true.

Page 4844

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4845

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You told us before this afternoon that you did not watch on

3 television the appearance of accused here in The Hague in February 2003,

4 but you became aware of the fact that accused men were appearing here in

5 this case; is that right?

6 A. I didn't say I didn't see him on television. I said that I didn't

7 see someone else when you asked about Shala. As for this person, I'm sure

8 that he appeared on TV for several days and that I've seen him and that

9 I've recognised him.

10 Q. That's very interesting. You recognised the man on TV, did you,

11 as the man Murrizi that you recognised from the camp in Lapusnik?

12 A. Of course I knew him at that time.

13 Q. Now, answer my question. You recognised on TV, did you, the man

14 known as Murrizi from the camp in Lapusnik?

15 A. He wasn't on TV. On TV, there was another person, and I have

16 recognised the second person as well because I have reasons to recognise

17 him.

18 Q. The person you are no doubt talking about was a man called Agim

19 Murtezi, wasn't he?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Agim Murtezi was an innocent man, wasn't he?

22 A. He was for some time a policeman for Serbia.

23 Q. Please answer my questions. I'm sure you understand them.

24 Agim Murtezi, for the purposes of this case, was an innocent man,

25 wasn't he?

Page 4846

1 A. Agim Murtezi was innocent. He was not guilty.

2 Q. He was not the man known as Murrizi at the camp, was he?

3 A. No, he wasn't.

4 Q. And you knew that, didn't you?

5 A. Yes. I knew it very well, from the first day.

6 Q. Did you pick up a telephone and tell anyone they'd got the wrong

7 man?

8 A. No. That didn't interest me.

9 Q. Justice doesn't interest you. I thought a little while ago this

10 afternoon you said that justice did interest you. Which is it?

11 A. Justice does interest me. But there are people who are paid for

12 those things, people who should lead justice, and that's why there was no

13 need for me to say anything about this. If I were asked, then I would say

14 that that was the wrong person.

15 Q. Witness, does it mean from that answer you would have stayed

16 silent and watched this innocent man get convicted of crimes he did not

17 commit because you weren't interested? Is that what you mean?

18 A. As I said, I'm not paid for that. There are people who are paid

19 for that and who will identify him as an innocent. I wasn't asked. If I

20 were asked, I would have said that I know that person, he was a policeman

21 in the service of Serbia, and that he was never in the KLA.

22 Q. You're not a moral coward?

23 A. I am not a moral coward.

24 Q. Let's move on, please, to some questions regarding the prison as

25 you've described it.

Page 4847

1 This prison and what went on there, according to you more than

2 once in evidence before this Tribunal, really wasn't something of

3 particular interest to you. Do you agree?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On the evidence you've given us, do you also agree that you seem

6 to be saying clearly that Qerqizi was at the heart of the operation of

7 this prison?

8 A. No. Qerqiz was the commander there.

9 Q. Is it your evidence, is it your view of all of this that Qerqizi

10 was in some way responsible for what went on, including other things,

11 things also at this so-called prison? Is that your view of Qerqizi?

12 A. My opinion about him is that he was a commander, but I'm not

13 saying that he was in charge of the prison or that he had any

14 responsibilities but that he was a commander above the soldiers there,

15 that is true.

16 Q. Do you agree it might be perfectly possible for Qerqizi simply to

17 have been fighting the war and have nothing whatever to do with this

18 so-called prison? Might that be the case, Witness?

19 A. He always participated in combat.

20 Q. Now answer my question, which was: Is it perfectly possible for

21 Qerqizi simply to have been fighting the war and have had nothing to do

22 with this so-called prison? Is that possible?

23 A. No.

24 Q. In the light of that answer, I press on. I want to ask you,

25 please, how many times do you say that you were in the compound where

Page 4848

1 there was a prison between May the 9th and July the 25th when Lapusnik

2 fell? How many times were you there?

3 A. Between 9th of May and 26th of July, it is possible that I've been

4 there six or seven times. I'm not sure.

5 Q. Has that always been the truth?

6 A. I know that I've been there two or three times on duty, but later

7 on I remembered that I've been there several times as well.

8 Q. Have you ever on another occasion denied being there at all?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Again, I urge caution. Think carefully before answering. Have

11 you ever on a previous occasion to anyone denied ever being there at all?

12 A. I don't remember that. You should identify the persons who I have

13 told this, if I have told that.

14 Q. Well, his name's Lehtinen amongst others. And I'm going to show

15 you your interview, please, in Albanian, of the 27th of May, 2003, and I'd

16 like you to go to page 11 of the Albanian version, if you'd be good

17 enough. I think you have it there?

18 MR. WHITING: And the English page?

19 MR. TOPOLSKI: The English, page 12.

20 Your Honours, I think the witness has -- does he have the

21 interview there?

22 JUDGE THELIN: We'll find out.

23 MR. WHITING: I believe he has the statement. I don't think he

24 still has the interview.

25 MR. TOPOLSKI: Mr. Guy-Smith had the interview before him on a

Page 4849

1 number of occasions. I wonder if -- Mr. Younis's help as always. Could

2 the whole interview go before the witness. Thank you so much.

3 Q. Witness, this is your interview with the investigators transcribed

4 in July but in fact having taken place on the 27th of May of 2003, and I

5 want you to go to page 11 of your version. It's the bottom of page 12 of

6 our version in English.

7 Now, the passage I'm looking for, Witness, is this: It is AW, who

8 begins with the words "Let's go back to this, when this started to be used

9 by the KLA, this compound."

10 Would you be good enough, please, to find the question that begins

11 in that way?

12 MR. TOPOLSKI: For Mr. Whiting's benefit, near the bottom of

13 page 12.

14 Q. And would you please indicate when you've found it. "AW: Let's

15 go back to this, when this started to be used by the KLA, this compound."

16 A. It's not on page 11 here.

17 MR. TOPOLSKI: Would Your Honours bear with me while I'm --

18 JUDGE THELIN: Take your time, Mr. Topolski.

19 MR. WHITING: If I can just be of some assistance. On the

20 Albanian it doesn't appear as AW. Because the questions are being put by

21 the interpreters, so the interpreter's initials are identified. So that

22 may be the source of the confusion.

23 MR. TOPOLSKI: Let's go back to this. DB. I beg your pardon.

24 Thank you, Mr. Whiting. DB.

25 Q. It's about a dozen lines up from the bottom of page 11, Witness.

Page 4850

1 "kur, kur," it starts. Do you have that?

2 Page 11, count 13 lines up from the bottom and you'll have it.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you so much. Would you follow this with me in your

5 language, please. Oh, by the way, do you speak English? Just answer that

6 yes or no.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you speak English well enough to conduct this cross-examination

9 without the benefit of an interpreter?

10 A. I understand it almost 100 per cent, but I have difficulties in

11 speaking it.

12 Q. "Let's go back to this," says the questioner. "When this started

13 to be used by the KLA, this compound, when it started to be used was used

14 by soldiers to watch television. It was also used -- there were certain

15 rooms that were used to keep prisoners that were being held by the KLA;

16 isn't that correct?"

17 And here follows your answer: "I was not somebody who they would

18 much trust, because being an LDK member, I was not somebody who would be

19 taken in trust in Lapusnik as far as Lapusnik is concerned. I was

20 basically busy with organising and setting up things in these bunkers."

21 "Okay," says Mr. Lehtinen.

22 Reading on: "And the second reason me being a person not

23 trustworthy was I had Serb friends."

24 The question: "I understand, but you knew that the KLA was using

25 it to hold prisoners. Everybody knew that," said the questioner.

Page 4851

1 You reply: "I heard it that way. I've heard it, the same thing,

2 but I haven't witnessed it for myself. I haven't seen it for myself."

3 That is a massive lie, isn't it?

4 A. That's what is written here, of course.

5 Q. And it's a lie, isn't it, a deliberate lie to the investigator?

6 You are denying ever going there, aren't you?

7 A. I don't understand whether the question was from May, because I

8 didn't know of it in May. But if it is the way it is here, that's the way

9 the lie is then.

10 Q. Is that your best answer to this point, Witness? Is that all you

11 want to say about this?

12 A. What I said is that if the question was have I ever seen it and

13 this is the question, then it's a lie. But if it's -- the question

14 concerns May, then the truth is that I didn't see it in May.

15 Q. The Tribunal will decide what the words of the question mean. I

16 put to you at the beginning of my cross-examination that you were a liar

17 and you did not agree with me. Do you want to change your mind about

18 that?

19 A. In this case, I don't want to change anything. This is true. I

20 either didn't think of it or wasn't prepared to give a statement at all.

21 Maybe I just wanted to be over and done with on that day and go home, if

22 we're talking about the May statement.

23 Q. You wanted it over and done with and go home. That was your

24 approach, was it, to your interview with the Office of the Prosecutor of

25 this Tribunal on the 27th of May, 2003? Is that right?

Page 4852

1 A. Yes, that's right. I didn't go there for several days, and when I

2 went, I wanted to finish with that as soon as possible and leave.

3 Q. In any event, the case is, is it not, that whether you were under

4 suspicion by any of your comrades or whether you were not trusted at all,

5 on your own account you ignored restricted access and made a number of

6 visits to this place where people were being held? Is that the case?

7 A. It's not they didn't trust me. Maybe there was some who didn't

8 trust, but those who knew me, they trusted me. In a way, everybody coming

9 from outside and who were not able to face those tortures by the Serbian

10 government, they were even greater patriots. Serbs were my neighbours,

11 and I had nothing bad with them, with the exception of Milosevic's regime.

12 Q. Did you confide in your private and personal diary that you were

13 going to this place that was a prison where people were being held against

14 their will?

15 A. I'm saying even now that I have.

16 Q. Of course that presumably is in those parts of the diary hidden in

17 a bottle somewhere in the mountains in Kosovo. Is that right?

18 A. They have nothing to do with that. Even the diary has nothing to

19 do with them. I'm saying I'm telling you the truth, and if you prove the

20 opposite, then you can find out who is a liar.

21 Q. The advantage of this system, you see, Witness, is I have to prove

22 nothing. I am asking you whether there exists anywhere in the world a

23 single piece of paper - diary, notebook, or whatever you want to call it -

24 that contains any reference at all to this prison and these prisoners.

25 Does it exist?

Page 4853

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4854

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Yes, you do, because you would have written it. Now, answer my

3 question. Does it exist?

4 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm going to object. The witness

5 answered the question and now the counsel is arguing with the witness.

6 JUDGE THELIN: Mr. Whiting, I will allow that.

7 Please continue, Mr. Topolski.

8 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you very much.

9 Q. Please be good enough, on His Honour's direction, to answer the

10 question I have asked you. You have said you wouldn't know. I'm asking

11 you whether or not any piece of paper exists anywhere in the world with

12 you writing to you yourself, your diary, regarding this prison. Yes or

13 no?

14 A. I'm not certain, I said. I haven't seen yet some of its -- of

15 these parts since 1998.

16 Q. You were, weren't you, a skilful interrogator of people?

17 A. The ones I have interrogated, it was in the month of February.

18 It's not true that I interrogated them. I have already identified whom I

19 have questioned.

20 Q. Well, let's go into private session and talk about one person in

21 particular.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Correction. It was not February, it was in

23 brief. It's the same word in Albanian. Correction.

24 JUDGE THELIN: Private.

25 [Private session]

Page 4856

1 A. If you call me this because I lifted -- I raised his head with the

2 butt of my rifle, then I am. But as far as I know about a sadistic

3 person, this is something else.

4 Q. Well, let me go on to some -- another subject in which I suggest

5 you did act sadistically, viciously, and spitefully. Let's talk about a

6 Serb female. You remember telling us about her?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are you ashamed of what you did as far as this woman is concerned?

9 A. I didn't do anything to her. I released her. When the order was

10 given, I released her and I accompanied her up to her place.

11 Q. I repeat: Are you ashamed of what you did as far as this woman is

12 concerned?

13 A. I'm telling you that I don't know that I did something wrong to

14 her. If I did something wrong to her, she should have testified --

15 testified against me. Anyone would.

16 Q. Oh, I see. If they don't come and testify against you, then your

17 position is that you've done nothing wrong. Is that it?

18 A. I'm telling you that I have done nothing wrong to that female. I

19 questioned her, and then after a day I released her.

20 Q. Well, let's look at what you did to this woman to whom you did

21 nothing wrong. First of all, you gave her a lift in your car from Fustica

22 to Lapusnik; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Day 54 for Mr. Whiting if he wishes to follow it, page 6 of the

25 transcript. "She pretended she was handicapped."

Page 4857

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How did she pretend she was handicapped?

3 A. She feigned to be mentally sick. That's what she claimed. And

4 there were some signs that show that she suffered from some mental

5 illness.

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 JUDGE THELIN: Indeed, Mr. Topolski.

9 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you.

10 Q. She had things in her baggage, you told us, which only people who

11 have mental disabilities could carry. What?

12 A. Is it to identify persons suffering from mental difficulties.

13 Some words she said, some things she kept in her bag. The amulets she

14 kept in her bag. These showed to me that she was suffering from some

15 mental disabilities.

16 Q. So rather than take pity on her, you took her back to a place, and

17 you and your mates beat her on the feet. Is that the position?

18 A. Instead of taking pity on her, I took her to the place because she

19 had surrendered to me. And if I let her go, I would have to be -- I would

20 be held accountable for that. So that's why I took her there.

21 Q. You beat her on her feet, didn't you, you and your comrades?

22 A. Maybe someone has beaten her for as long as she stayed there, but

23 during the time she stayed with me, nobody beat her.

24 Q. Would you have the common decency, please, to tell this Tribunal

25 the truth. In a signed statement to the investigators, you said, "We beat

Page 4858

1 her on the feet." Now, please, would you please tell us and admit what

2 you did. You beat her, didn't you, you and your friends, on the feet?

3 A. "We" is plural, but it doesn't show that I was there with my

4 comrades. I was there alone and the guard was present, but if others beat

5 her they would be described as comrades also, but I didn't beat her. I

6 don't remember to have given a slap or to have beaten this woman.

7 Q. Did you try to stop this thing happening to her?

8 A. I didn't see that. I just handed her over, and on the next day I

9 released her. I didn't see that.

10 Q. But why if you didn't see it did you put in a statement that you

11 signed as being the truth that you did? "We beat her on the feet." The

12 words are very simple. They mean what they say, don't they?

13 MR. WHITING: I think the statement is still before the witness.

14 If he could just be -- if his attention could be drawn to the paragraph.

15 MR. TOPOLSKI: Mr. Whiting is quite right. In the interests of

16 the economy of time, I'm not being fair to the witness.

17 Q. Paragraph 131 of your own witness statement, please. Would you go

18 to that. Paragraph 131. And tell me when you've found it. Have you

19 found it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. "I took her to the prison in Lapusnik," you say. I'm

22 summarising. "I recall for sure I took her into the room downstairs. Had

23 her sitting in a corner inside the door. I checked her belongings and

24 questioned her. I think I was accompanied by someone, but I cannot

25 remember who. The woman acted mad, and on other hand kept trying to

Page 4859

1 convince us she was a Muslim. We didn't get anything out of her. We hit

2 her a few times on the soles of her feet with a wooden stick, but it

3 didn't seem to have any effect."

4 Is that statement true?

5 A. It must be true, but I don't remember myself beating her. I know

6 that others beat her and she said so, that someone had beaten her on the

7 soles of her feet, but I don't -- I didn't see any injuries on her or

8 anything. I only saw that she was very upset, but that was it. That's

9 true.

10 Q. Would you like to apologise to her now?

11 A. Yes. Of course, yes. I would like to apologise to anyone for

12 anything I have done, for any mistakes I made. At a later time I've asked

13 someone whom I beat, I apologised to him, and after that we became good

14 friends. He -- he forgive me -- he forgave me, sorry, and then after that

15 we became good friends.

16 Q. This is of course the same woman you tied to a tree and told her

17 you would shoot her if she deviated from the path on her being released,

18 isn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you tie her to a tree with rope, string, a belt, wire, or

21 what?

22 A. With a string. I had -- I had string with me.

23 Q. Let's move on, please, to deal with another topic, and for this it

24 involves a named and identifiable individual.

25 MR. TOPOLSKI: I ask to go into private session, please.