1 Tuesday, 5 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.14 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Black.

6 MR. BLACK: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Unless there's anything

7 that I'm not aware of, we can call the next witness, Mr. Dragan Jasovic.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Jasovic, if you could please read aloud the

11 affirmation on the card that is given to you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. If you could please sit down.

15 Yes, Mr. Black.

16 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 WITNESS: DRAGAN JASOVIC

18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Examined by Mr. Black:

20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jasovic. Can you understand me all right?

21 A. Yes, I can.

22 Q. Okay. If at any time you don't understand one of my questions,

23 please just tell me and I'll try to rephrase it in a more clear way. Do

24 you understand?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now, in a moment I'll ask you some questions about your personal

2 and professional background, but before I do that I would just like to

3 ask you a couple of brief questions about your prior interviews and

4 meetings with the Prosecution. First, did you give a statement to the

5 Office of the Prosecutor on 12 May 2004?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Have you had a chance to review that statement and make any

8 corrections that were necessary?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. Did you make those corrections this weekend?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Sir, did you meet with me in Belgrade earlier this year on 21st

13 of February, 2005?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And do you remember if you've met on any other occasions with a

16 Prosecution investigator in Belgrade this year or last year besides the

17 two that I've just mentioned?

18 A. I do. This year I met with Mr. Roel.

19 Q. Do you remember when that was?

20 A. I can't remember the date, but I met with him two or three times,

21 around a month ago. Maybe more than a month ago.

22 Q. That's fine. Thank you. And finally, you and I met over the

23 weekend and then on Monday to prepare for your testimony. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. Mr. Jasovic, now I'll ask you some questions about your personal

2 and professional background. First, is your full name Dragan Jasovic and

3 your father's name Nikola?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you born on 20th September 1953 in Pec, Kosova?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you are of Serb ethnicity. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Sir, what languages do you speak?

10 A. I speak Serbian and the Siptari Albanian language. I speak a

11 little Russian, too.

12 Q. Is it correct that you completed secondary school in 1973?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And after secondary school you completed your national service

15 with the Yugoslav army in 1974. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, I served in Podgorica which is in the Republic of

17 Montenegro.

18 Q. Sir, what is your current occupation?

19 A. Currently I am a crime investigation policeman, a regular

20 inspector in the secretariat of the interior in the town of Urosevac but

21 I am working in a town in Leskovac.

22 Q. Sir, how long have you been a police officer?

23 A. I started as a policeman on the 1st of July, 1975, in Stimlje.

24 Municipality in Stimlje.

25 Q. What were your duties at that time in Stimlje?

1 A. I worked as a policeman and later as a leader of the security

2 sector. I worked on the beat, in patrol duty, covering areas that the

3 police station of Stimlje had as their area.

4 Q. Did you receive any training as a police officer at that time?

5 A. Yes, before I started working I completed training in Djakovica

6 in Kosovo and Metohija.

7 Q. Sir, how long did you work as a police officer in Stimlje?

8 A. From the 1st of May, 1975, until the 1st of May, 1981.

9 Q. Did you change jobs on the 1st of May in 1981?

10 A. Yes. My superior in the secretariat of the interior in Urosevac

11 appointed me assistant commander of the police station in Urosevac.

12 Q. What were your duties as assistant commander?

13 A. I would not like to expand on my duties.

14 Q. Well, it can be brief, but just tell me what kind of work you

15 were doing as assistant commander.

16 A. As assistant commander of the police station I was in charge of

17 the policemen who worked on the beat and on patrol duty. It mainly

18 boiled down to preventive police work, that is preventing crimes and

19 working to detect the perpetrators of crimes where perpetrators were

20 unknown as well as general law enforcement.

21 Q. Thank you. And where were you based as of 1981?

22 A. In Urosevac.

23 Q. In the headquarters in the Urosevac SUP? Is that right?

24 A. Yes, in the base of the secretariat of the interior, because the

25 SUP of Urosevac covered Stimlje, Strpce and Kacanik.

1 Q. Sir, you mentioned Stimlje, Strpce, and Kacanik. Are those is in

2 addition to Urosevac municipality itself? Is that correct?

3 A. Actually Kacanik was a separate municipality whereas Stimlje and

4 Strpce were included in our municipality. I cannot remember in which

5 year. It could have been 1989 or maybe earlier.

6 Q. Okay. But they were all included under the responsibility of the

7 SUP of Urosevac. Is that right?

8 A. Yes. The SUP of Urosevac was the headquarters, the base.

9 Q. Mr. Jasovic, did your duties change in any way in 1986?

10 A. In 1986 in the area of Urosevac, mainly in the village of Gornje

11 Nerodimlje and other places, we had a number of incidents of physical

12 assault; various offences committed in the fields; interception of

13 Serbian children; damaged incurred to orchards and crops. Whereas the

14 victims were mainly people of Serb nationality.

15 Q. And did this have an effect on the duties you personally

16 undertook at that time? What kind of work were you doing as of 1986?

17 A. In accordance with the orders of our superiors in the SUP of

18 Urosevac - at the time the superior was Mr. Stankovic, nicknamed

19 Lacko - I was transferred to be an assistant to my Albanian colleague. I

20 don't remember -- in fact, I would not like to mention his name in open

21 session.

22 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could we go briefly into private

23 session, please?

24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

25 [Private session]

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15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

17 MR. BLACK: Thank you.

18 Q. Mr. Jasovic, please don't mention the name but how would you

19 describe your working relationship with your partner?

20 A. My working relationship with him. I have to say at the time that

21 that period I told you about was characterised by the great number of

22 crimes where perpetrators were unknown. We patrolled the area of

23 Urosevac, Stimlje, and Kacanik together, trying to prevent interethnic

24 conflicts. We performed all our duties and assignments together and we

25 had mutual respect for each other.

1 Q. How long did you work together with this partner?

2 A. From 1986 until I believe the beginning of 1990.

3 Q. And again, without mentioning his name, can you just briefly

4 explain why you stopped working with him or why you are no longer working

5 with him after 1990?

6 A. I stopped working with him because he had problems caused to him

7 by his fellow Albanians but also by inspectors in the SUP of Urosevac who

8 told him that he was a traitor.

9 Q. After that, after 1990, did you continue to work on the same

10 kinds of cases as you had worked on with him?

11 A. I did continue, but my Albanian colleague transferred to other

12 duties in the secretariat of the interior of Urosevac.

13 Q. Thank you. I understand that. At this point did you work alone

14 or did you get new partners that you worked with, new colleagues?

15 A. I worked on my job alone, but my direct superior gave me two

16 Albanian assistants, also members of the SUP of Urosevac, who by that

17 time had still remained in the SUP of our town.

18 Q. This may have been later in time, but who is Momcilo Sparavalo?

19 A. Momcilo Sparavalo is a colleague who joined me in end 1996, or

20 maybe 1997. He is also an inspector at the secretariat of the interior

21 of Urosevac.

22 Q. Mr. Jasovic, now I'm going to move away from questions about your

23 background. There's some questions about the procedures that you used to

24 investigate cases, in particular in the year 1998. My first question is

25 this: Generally speaking, what kinds of crimes did you investigate in

1 1998?

2 A. 1998, Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo and I worked on jobs involving crimes

3 of terrorism, genocide and the crime which is called "crime of

4 association with the purpose of committing hostile activities and

5 terrorist activities."

6 Q. And I want to ask you how a particular investigation would begin.

7 What would trigger an investigation for you to look into a particular

8 incident?

9 A. You mean in a specific incident? When something happened, it

10 could be reported by members of the family, immediate family, or extended

11 family, or by any citizen in the street. I'm now talking about the

12 municipality of Stimlje. Sometimes we received reports from the police

13 station in Stimlje, from policemen or commanders who worked in Stimlje.

14 Q. Did you ever obtain information from paid informants? Just

15 speaking generally now. You don't have to mention any names.

16 A. I had one registered informant, one source.

17 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could we go into private session for a

18 few questions?

19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

20 [Private session]

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9 [Open session]

10 MR. BLACK:

11 Q. Mr. Jasovic, in fact I'll return to that line of questioning in a

12 moment. I'm going to move on to something different. During your

13 investigations, did you conduct interviews?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Where did -- where would those interviews take place?

16 A. All interviews would be conducted on the premises of the

17 secretariat of the interior of Urosevac.

18 Q. Now, you mentioned that if you were meeting with a friendly

19 source, you would meet somewhere outside of the SUP premises. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. That is correct. Outside the premises and mainly in late evening

22 hours or the small hours.

23 Q. Did you have the ability to summons people in for questioning or

24 even arrest people for questioning?

25 A. My colleague Sparavalo and I never left our offices. If any

1 people were taken into custody, they would be taken into custody by

2 regular policemen.

3 Q. Okay, I understand that. My question is a little different.

4 Maybe not you personally detaining people, but if you wanted to talk to

5 someone, could you send police officers out to bring that person in for

6 questioning?

7 A. My method of work never involved sending policemen to bring

8 somebody for questioning. I would usually arrange it through friends,

9 all of them people of ethnic -- sorry, Albanian ethnicity and mainly by

10 telephone.

11 Q. Were people ever brought in for interviews involuntarily, people

12 that didn't voluntarily show up asking to give a statement?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now I'm going to turn to the process of taking statements. Can

15 you describe the process by which you would take a signed statement?

16 A. As far as the taking of statements is concerned, it all depended,

17 as I told you before. If somebody from the immediate family or any

18 citizen in the street came to us to report an incident, they would first

19 come into contact with the duty service, the duty policeman; and the duty

20 policeman would inform me that somebody came to report an incident.

21 I had my own method of work. I would talk to that person and I

22 would make notes in my notepad. I would make a draft. In order to

23 establish that the person was giving me correct information, I would come

24 back several times during the same day to the initial point of the

25 interview because if the person was telling the truth all the data would

1 be the same every time, all the information he gave me would be the same

2 every time he told the story again; and if not, then that would be also

3 established in the process.

4 After this draft was made, then the person would sign the

5 statement and my colleague and I would affix our signatures as well. In

6 addition to the statement we would also file a criminal report if we

7 estimated that elements of a criminal offence were present.

8 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a couple of follow-up questions on what you

9 told us. Focusing on the mechanism of how a statement was typed up, how

10 did that work?

11 A. You mean the typing itself?

12 Q. That's right. Did you type it? Did someone else type it? Who

13 typed it?

14 A. The typing was done by my colleague, Momcilo Sparavalo, while I

15 dictated. Since I know the Albanian language rather well, every

16 statement would be interpreted to the person on the spot, and I must say

17 that all Albanians mainly knew the Serbian language. I mean the people

18 who came to report crimes.

19 Q. Okay. And just to be clear, did the person making the statement

20 then have some opportunity to review the statement or make some

21 corrections before they signed it?

22 A. I would dictate the statement aloud to my colleague, Momcilo

23 Sparavalo, after which I would give the statement to the person who came

24 to report the incident to read it.

25 Q. And would this happen on one day or over the course of several

1 days? How long did this usually take, this process?

2 A. A statement would usually be completed within a day; however,

3 there was some cases when the party who came to report the crime knew the

4 last name of the perpetrator or knew only the first name. In that case,

5 I would tell them to come back in a day or two when they found out the

6 name. That was my way of working.

7 Q. Okay. And now I want to focus on the content of a statement.

8 What information was included in the signed statement? And I guess --

9 perhaps I can ask a more clear question. Did you include your own

10 comments or any other extraneous information in the signed statement?

11 A. Are you referring to a statement made by someone reporting an

12 incident?

13 Q. That's right.

14 A. The statement would contain everything the person had said, I

15 mean everything the person said was included. Nothing was included that

16 came from myself or my colleague, Momcilo Sparavalo.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you. Sir, did you sometimes make official notes

18 instead of statements?

19 A. Official notes and information was something I wrote up in those

20 cases where no statement was taken. For the most part, these notes and

21 this information which I wrote contained information obtained from

22 persons of Albanian ethnicity. But I did not include the names of the

23 persons who had given us the information. I kept that information in my

24 own notebook for the security of those persons and the security of their

25 immediate and extended families.

1 Q. When would you draft an official note after you -- after, say,

2 your first meeting where you received information from someone?

3 A. Of course I drew up all official notes on the premises of where

4 my offices were. I couldn't do that in the street.

5 Q. And I guess my question is: Relative to obtaining the

6 information, when did you write it up? Did you write it up the same day?

7 Every Friday? The last day of every month? When would you do that?

8 A. I had my own method of work. I never compiled information

9 provided only by one source. I always endeavoured -- if I, for example,

10 received the same information from three different persons, then I would

11 draw up a note or information; and there is a difference between a note

12 and an information. And if I was convinced that the source was telling

13 the truth, then I would draw up information based on only one source.

14 Q. You make a distinction between a note and an information. Can

15 you explain what the difference is, please.

16 A. The difference is the following: Information is when you learn

17 for the first time about something. After that, official notes are drawn

18 up. For example, you learn about a kidnapping; afterwards, the file is

19 updated and official notes are drawn up. I don't know if I've made it

20 clear.

21 Q. I understand. Yes, thank you. Mr. Jasovic, when you took a

22 statement or made an official note, did you consider it important that

23 those documents be accurate?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Why?

1 A. Because I was not working for myself. If I wrote something that

2 was untrue, I would be deceiving the secretariat of interior affairs; and

3 in my view, this was a great and important institution.

4 Q. Mr. Jasovic, did you ever force witnesses to give you

5 information?

6 A. No. I never descended to such mean things.

7 Q. Did you ever mistreat witnesses in order to get information?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Mr. Jasovic, did you investigate an incident differently

10 depending on whether or not the victim was a Serb or an Albanian or from

11 some other ethnicity?

12 A. The Ministry of the Interior, the secretariat of the interior in

13 Urosevac, regardless of ethnic origin, religious affiliation, or whatever

14 always treated every case equally because there was no division in the

15 Ministry of the Interior. We did not -- we did not separate people

16 according to whether they were Albanians or Serbs and so on.

17 Q. You've told us about the Ministry of the Interior, but I'm

18 interested in you personally. Did you personally investigate incidents

19 differently depending on whether or not the victim might have been a Serb

20 or an Albanian?

21 A. I used the same methods both towards Albanians, Serbs, Roma, or

22 any other -- a person of any other ethnic group.

23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic. We've spent a little bit time talking

24 about your background and procedures. Now I'm going to move to a new

25 topic. And I would mention that if today we look at any documents or we

1 talk about any interviews where you've deviated from these procedures

2 that you've just told us about, please tell me. Do you understand?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Mr. Jasovic, did you learn about any underground or illegal

5 activity in Petrastica in the early 1990s?

6 A. In the early 1990s, we as a service learned that in that area an

7 illegal organisation entitled Balli Kombetar had been established. We

8 learned that weapons had been transferred from the area of Drenica to the

9 village of Petrastica, municipality of Stimlje. I must mention that

10 until 1989 Petrastica had belonged to Lipjan municipality and from that

11 time to Stimlje municipality. After this the people's movement of Kosova

12 was established and this existed until the KLA staffs were established in

13 early June 1998. This popular movement from the Republic of Kosovo

14 formed its sabotage groups on the 22nd of April, 1996. In the evening in

15 Kosovo and Metohija we had several terrorist actions, one of which was

16 carried out in Stimlje, where on the 26th of April, 1996, a policeman was

17 killed. His name was Milenko Bucic. And on the 28th of November, 1997,

18 in the village of Petrastica an honest Siptar, Dalib Dugovi was killed in

19 front of his house.

20 Q. When did you first hear about the Kosovo Liberation Army?

21 A. I heard about the KLA for the first time in early 1998, and I'm

22 referring to Stimlje municipality, when the first staff was established

23 in the village of Rance and Isak Musliu, also known as Qerqiz, was

24 appointed commander. In early June, through representatives of the DSK,

25 Ibrahim Rugova's party -- the LDK, he organised a meeting in a mosque.

1 Mr. Isak Musliu was opposed by members of the DSK. The meeting was held

2 in a mosque with three other persons wearing camouflage uniforms with KLA

3 insignia and they were armed with automatic weapons and short barrels.

4 The meeting was led by Isak Musliu, who on that occasion said that a

5 staff had been established in the village of Rance and that the KLA was

6 taking over power, that as of that time there were no more Albanian

7 parties - what shall I call them? - and that everybody had to comply

8 with orders issued by the KLA.

9 Q. Okay. Let me interrupt you right there for a moment, please.

10 What village did this meeting take place in, if you know?

11 A. In the village of Racak in the mosque. The village of Racak is

12 in Stimlje municipality.

13 Q. And you mentioned Isak Musliu. Did you know Isak Musliu?

14 A. I knew him personally. He and Mr. Srboljub Vojinovic -- I'm not

15 sure when, but between 1993 and 1995 sat in a cafe in Stimlje owned by

16 Murat Gashi, as known as Sultan, from the village of Petrastica,

17 municipality of Stimlje.

18 Q. You mentioned another person Srboljub and I missed the last name.

19 Who was that person?

20 A. An inspector of the state security service in Urosevac.

21 Q. Mr. Jasovic, before 1998 did you have social contact like this

22 with other people who eventually joined the KLA?

23 A. I did. Mr. Isak Musliu was the commander of the KLA in the

24 village of Rance, and after that the military police in Rucak Muhali

25 [phoen] in Stimlje municipality, the village of Petrove. I had contacts

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1 with his KLA deputy in the village of Rance, Zymer Kurtishi, because as a

2 policeman in Stimlje I ate and had tea in the house of Zymer Kurtishi on

3 more than one occasion. I know his father personally. I also knew his

4 grandfather. And he moved from Rance to another village in Stimlje

5 municipality, Uzecani [phoen].

6 I knew Jete Jashari, also known as Juri, from the village of

7 Grejcevce, Suva Reka municipality. One of the commanders of the KLA in

8 Topilo, Laniste, Devetak, and before that he was in Grejcevce. These

9 were all villages.

10 I knew Ramadan Behluli from the village of Crnoljevo, Stimlje

11 municipality, and with my Albanian colleagues who were also inspectors.

12 In May 1997 I was in his house in the village of Crnoljevo where we had

13 tea.

14 Q. Thank you. On the time you said you sat in a cafe in Stimlje

15 with Isak Musliu, what were you doing?

16 A. Just having a drink. Regardless of ethnic origin in Stimlje

17 people had alcoholic drinks. Srboljub Vojinovic knew him and introduced

18 us.

19 Q. Now, getting back to the meeting in Racak that you discussed a

20 moment ago, you don't need to name names right now, but in general from

21 whom did you receive this information about the meeting in Racak?

22 A. I received information from more than one source because there

23 were statements made by several Albanians and also from operations

24 connections because at that meeting the civilian protection was

25 established and a body for the procurement of weapons, food, fuel, and so

1 on.

2 Q. Okay. Did any of these sources of information say how they knew

3 that it was Isak Musliu who led the meeting?

4 A. Could you please repeat your question.

5 Q. Sure. Of course I will. How did these sources know that it was

6 Isak Musliu who led the meeting?

7 A. This leaked in Racak, from the villagers, because they knew him.

8 Most of the people in the village of Racak were decent people, honest

9 people of Albanian ethnicity who opposed the establishment of the KLA and

10 did not wish to join it.

11 Q. Did you speak with anyone who was actually present at the

12 meeting? There's no need to give a name, but I just want to know if you

13 spoke with anyone who was present at the meeting?

14 A. I probably did, but I can't recall now. There are probably

15 statements available and in the statement they would say whether they had

16 attended the meeting or not.

17 Q. Okay. Well, I'll show you some documents in a minute. Before I

18 do, did you ever hear about similar meetings in other villages?

19 A. Similar meeting were held in early July, or rather in June 1998.

20 There was a meeting in the village of Petrastica, Stimlje municipality,

21 chaired by Shukri Buja, later the commander of the 161st Brigade for the

22 area of Urosevac and Ramiz Qeriqi. Shukri Buja was in the village of

23 Sokoli. On the 13th of June there was a meeting in the village of

24 Crnoljevo, Stimlje municipality. And I have to say that in Petrastica

25 the meeting was held in Idriza Ajeti primary school and in Crnoljevo it

1 was held in the courtyard of a cafe, the name of which I don't know. In

2 the village of Zborce the meeting was chaired by Fatmir Limaj, known as

3 Celiku.

4 Q. Just for one point of clarity, on the transcript it reads that

5 Shukri Buja was in the village of Sokoli. What did you say again about

6 Sokoli?

7 A. He had a pseudonym, Gazetar. That was his in nickname. After

8 that they called him Sokoli.

9 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, with the assistance of the usher and Mr.

10 Younis, Mr. Jasovic, I'm going to show you a document. I'm going to hand

11 you a binder full of documents and the usher will help you turn to tab

12 17.

13 MR. BLACK: Perhaps for the record the B/C/S version of this

14 bears the ERN K00225655 to 5667. And the English is 0304-8619 to 8621.

15 Again, it's behind tab 17. And it is a statement. The attachment page

16 on the front says "Dated 8th September 1998," but I believe the statement

17 itself is dated 17 September 1998.

18 We'll put this on Sanction if that's easier for people to follow

19 along. We have the English version on Sanction with some redactions made

20 to protect the identity of the people who gave the statements.

21 Q. Mr. Jasovic, have a look at this statement. Your name appears on

22 the last page. Is that correct?

23 A. That's correct. Are you referring to the statement of the 8th of

24 September, 1998?

25 Q. That's correct. Thank you. And again, we're in public session

1 now, so please do your best not to mention a name.

2 A. Yes, I understand. The statement was taken by me, Mr. Momcilo

3 Sparavalo, Srboljub Vojinovic and Miroslav Antic. Sparavalo and I were

4 from the public security station and the other two were from the state

5 security service.

6 Q. Thank you. Does your signature appear on the copy that you have

7 before you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know why that might be?

10 A. Because I kept all statements for myself and the main statements

11 with the signature were delivered to the chief of the secretariat of the

12 interior and our files.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Were you present when this statement was

14 taken?

15 A. All persons mentioned, all the authorised officials mentioned in

16 the statement were present, yes.

17 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could we go into private session

18 briefly?

19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

20 [Private session]

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9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

11 MR. BLACK:

12 Q. Witness, we're in open session again, so please be careful with

13 names. If you look at the first paragraph of this statement, the

14 statement says -- well, actually, in fact, if you could read that first

15 paragraph to yourself. You don't need to read it out loud.

16 A. From the beginning?

17 Q. Yeah. Not out loud, just read it quietly to yourself there for a

18 moment.

19 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, while the witness is reading, just a

20 technical comment. If you push computer evidence on your monitors, it's

21 a lot more clear than if you push video evidence. I don't know which one

22 you're using.

23 Q. Mr. Jasovic, just briefly, does this refer to the meeting in

24 Racak which you mentioned a moment ago?

25 A. Yes. It refers to the village of Racak where this person stated

1 he had not attended the meeting because he was a member of the presidency

2 of the DSK, the Kosovo Democratic Union, and he did not wish to join the

3 KLA. And the contact of Mr. Isak Musliu with a person whose name I would

4 not like to mention is referred to here.

5 Q. Did this person say who had chaired the meeting?

6 A. Yes. Yes, the person said that the meeting was chaired by Mr.

7 Isak Musliu.

8 Q. Thank you. And if you could turn to the -- I believe it's the

9 next page at the very top of the page. If we could move to the next page

10 in English also. Is there a reference there to Milaim Kamberi at the

11 top?

12 A. Yes, the name of Milaim Kamberi, son of Rexhep, from Racak is

13 mentioned.

14 Q. What does it say about him?

15 A. It says that in July 1998 they forcibly seized him from his

16 house, that is the members of the so-called KLA, and they took him

17 towards Drenica. After that we discovered that Milaim Kamberi had had a

18 property dispute with another Albanian concerning his courtyard and he

19 reported this to the police station in Stimlje. But the Albanian

20 terrorists, the so-called KLA, did not like this.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'm going to move to another document now. If

22 you could look behind tab 12. Perhaps the usher could assist you. The

23 ERN for this document is K032-7273.

24 MR. BLACK: It's also showing on Sanction, the English version.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a statement received by me

1 and Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo, my colleague, my partner.

2 MR. BLACK: If we could go briefly into private session, Your

3 Honour.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

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15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

17 MR. BLACK: Thank you.

18 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I'm going to direct your attention to -- I guess

19 it's the second paragraph and I'll read something and just follow along.

20 It says that: "A meeting had been held in the elementary school in the

21 village of Zborce."

22 And then a little further along it says a person "informed me

23 that the meeting had been chaired by a person named Celiku, who said that

24 Siptar political parties in the village of Godance were no longer valid

25 and that a terrorist group, the so-called OVK, would be taking over. He

1 said that representatives of the so-called OVK would be coming from

2 Zborce."

3 Now, is that information told to you by the person we just

4 mentioned in private session?

5 A. Yes, the person who gave the statement.

6 Q. Is this a reference to the meeting in Zborce that you had just

7 testified to a few moments ago?

8 A. Yes, because he stated here that the commander of the KLA and

9 their membership did not know each other's names. They referred to each

10 other by nickname. That is why Mr. Fatmir Limaj is here referred to as

11 Celiku. And it says that a meeting was held in the village of Zborce.

12 Q. Does it say when the meeting was held in Zborce?

13 A. He said it happened three weeks prior because from Zborce the

14 roads lead to the thoroughfare connecting Stimlje and Dulje and there is

15 a road going to the Gornje Godance village, Stimlje municipality, where a

16 substaff of the KLA was later formed led by Enver Mehmeti, also known as

17 Inspector. And that's a man I know personally.

18 Q. Let me interrupt you for just a moment. It says that it happened

19 three weeks prior. Three weeks prior to what date? Sorry, just to be

20 clear.

21 A. Prior to the 28th of July, when the statement was given. The

22 27th of July, 1998. But this piece of information three weeks prior

23 doesn't necessarily have to be correct. It all depends on how good the

24 memory of the person is, the person giving the statement I mean.

25 Q. Mr. Jasovic, was this the first time you had heard of a person

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1 called Celiku?

2 A. I first heard about a person called Celiku in the beginning of

3 July 1998.

4 MR. BLACK: Can we go into private session please, Your Honour?

5 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

8 MR. BLACK:

9 Q. Mr. Jasovic, can you please turn to tab 14 in your booklet. The

10 usher will help you. I'm sorry that it's not a particularly good copy in

11 B/C/S.

12 A. This is a statement that I took together with my partner, Mr.

13 Sparavalo, on the 13th of -- on the 13th of August, 1998, on the premises

14 of SUP Urosevac.

15 MR. BLACK: Could we go very briefly into private session, Your

16 Honour?

17 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

4 MR. BLACK:

5 Q. Mr. Jasovic, if you look at page 2 of this statement I'm going to

6 read out a section if you can just see it and follow along.

7 A. Well, I can hardly read this myself.

8 Q. I know. It's a bad copy. Listen to me for the moment. It says:

9 "The leader of the staff in Petrastica was Ramiz Qeriqi, while his deputy

10 was Latif Musolli. At the beginning of June 1998," it appears to say, "a

11 meeting was held in the Petrastica village primary school and attended by

12 the villagers. The meeting was led by three masked KLA persons who said

13 that Siptar parties no longer existed and that authority was being taken

14 over by the so-called OU."

15 Now, is that a reference to the meeting in Petrastica that you

16 had mentioned earlier?

17 A. Correct. This meeting was held in the schoolhouse of the school

18 called Idriz Ajeti in Petrastica.

19 Q. Thank you. We're done with that document.

20 Now, Mr. Jasovic, I'm going to move away from these meetings to

21 go into a different topic now. And to do that, I would like you to look

22 behind tab 3. This is a criminal report and it says that -- it's dated

23 the 30th of June, 1998. It has a stamp and some signatures at the

24 bottom. Do you recognise those?

25 A. Yes. This is the stamp of Urosevac SUP and I wrote this report

1 together with my partner, Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo.

2 MR. BLACK: Could we go briefly into private session, Your

3 Honour, please?

4 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

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11 (redacted)

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16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

18 MR. BLACK:

19 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I'm just going to read to you a couple of passages

20 from this. In the first paragraph it says there: "Around 0130 hours on

21 27 June 1998 in Gornje Godance village, unknown persons kidnapped Agim,

22 son of Bajram, born on 27 March 1959 from his family house. Also

23 kidnapped was Vesel Ahmeti, son of Isak, from Gornje Godance, born on 2

24 January 1963; both were taken in an unknown direction."

25 Then further down on the page it says: "According to...

1 statement, that same night, Shyqyri Zimeri, son of Rashit, born on 16

2 June 1966, in Gornje Godance village was also kidnapped."

3 Now, were those things told to you by the person who made this

4 statement?

5 A. Correct. The person from whom we took a statement underlying

6 this criminal report told me this.

7 Q. I draw your attention to the second-to-last second where it says:

8 "The kidnapped persons were loyal citizens of the Republic Serbia." Do

9 you see that there?

10 A. Yes, I can see it.

11 Before I answer this I would like to come back to some facts.

12 The Albanian terrorists, the so-called KLA, they had a pathological

13 hatred for everything Serbian. And their targets were also all Albanians

14 who did not wish to join the KLA. Albanians who had friends among or

15 socialised with Serbs, Albanians or Siptars who had friends among Serb

16 policemen. And they also targeted Albanians who worked in Serb

17 enterprises or companies and resisted in some way to their violence and

18 terror.

19 What -- this is a reference actually to the citizens of Serbia

20 who lived in conformity with the constitution and the legislation of

21 Serbia. And if you ask me person by person, I can explain to you the

22 motivation behind their kidnappings.

23 Q. Well, perhaps we'll come to that later. Let's move on to the

24 next document which is behind tab 8. Actually, this one doesn't need to

25 be on Sanction, Mr. Younis.

1 MR. BLACK: This is a criminal report dated 8th July 1998. The

2 ERN number for the record is K0225357 to 5359. In the English it's

3 03056425, 6428. I haven't been very diligent about reading all of the

4 ERN numbers into the record. I don't know if that's absolutely

5 necessary, but if it is I'm come back and clarify that.

6 Q. Mr. Jasovic, just looking at this criminal report, if you look on

7 the last page do you see your name there?

8 A. This criminal report was written by Mr. Sparavalo and myself.

9 Q. And just looking at the first paragraph. Was Agim Ademi a member

10 of the police reserves?

11 A. This is a question you had better put to Bogoljub Janicevic, the

12 then-chief of Urosevac SUP. I don't know anything about it.

13 Q. I guess let me just ask you, at least before the 8th of July,

14 1998, were you aware of Agim Ademi being a member of the police serve

15 forces?

16 A. I can speak in my own name and on behalf of my partner, Mr.

17 Sparavalo. The two of us were not aware of this.

18 Q. This report also references some weapons and some articles of

19 clothing which are described as being given to Agim Ademi by the Urosevac

20 SUP. Were you aware of that?

21 A. I was not aware that the SUP of Urosevac had issued him with

22 anything. If this is true then only the chief or his deputy could know

23 about this. My partner and I didn't.

24 Q. Okay. In that case then let's please move to the next document

25 which is behind tab 9. The English is 03048108 to 8111. Mr. Younis can

1 put it on the Sanction for us.

2 First of all, Mr. Jasovic, it says that the source of this is "a

3 friendly contact." Without mentioning the name, who does that refer to?

4 A. It says the source is a friendly connection or friendly contact

5 from the Albanian national minority.

6 Q. Do you happen to remember who that person is? If we would go

7 into private session, could you tell me the name?

8 A. I know who it is but I wouldn't like to mention the name.

9 Q. Okay. I don't think it is important, but we can come back to it

10 if it is. Looking at that first paragraph I'm going to read something

11 and I want you to follow along and see if this is an accurate record of

12 what was told to you on that day.

13 It says: "Based on intelligence, Jeta Hasani took part with the

14 rest of the terrorist group in carrying out terrorist operations in

15 Gornje Godance village when on 27 June 1998, Agim Ademi, Vesel Ahmeti and

16 Shyqeri Zumberi were kidnapped and taken away in an unknown direction and

17 their legally possessed firearms were seized from them. He also took

18 part in the terrorist operations at Adem Ramadani's, Shefqet Ramadani's,

19 Eljmi Ramadani's and Ibrahim Smaili, all from Gornje Godance village.

20 Family members of the kidnapped persons recognised Jeta Hasani by his

21 voice during the terrorist operations in Gornje Godance village, but out

22 of fear, they cannot say his name."

23 Mr. Jasovic, is that an accurate record of what was told to you

24 by this source?

25 A. Well, you see regarding the kidnapping of Zymeri, Ahmeti and Adem

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1 Ademi, we had information even earlier that the kidnappers were Albanian

2 terrorists, the so-called KLA. Qeriqi Ramiz, Jeta Hasani, and Fehrudin

3 Gashi. With a proviso that Ramiz Qeriqi is from Krajmirovce village,

4 Lipjan municipality; Jeta from Stimlje municipality; and the last one

5 also from Stimlje.

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name of the

7 villages.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This operation was easy to carry

9 out because the wives of Fahrudin Gashi and Ramiz Qeriqi were from Gornje

10 Godance, Stimlje municipality, whereas Hasani himself comes from that

11 village. As for my information that my partner and I received, they are

12 accurate. This is accurate.

13 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I don't know if it's probably time for a

14 break or if I should march on with one more document?

15 JUDGE PARKER: No, that's a convenient time. Thank you, Mr.

16 Black.

17 We will resume at 5 minutes past 4.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Black.

21 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honours, may I just raise one matter very

22 quickly before the examination continues. I'm sorry, I feel right.

23 Quite a lot of the material so far that has been done in private

24 session in fact could be done in public session, particularly where there

25 are named victims who are known on public record and descriptions of what

1 is alleged to have happened to them also in the public domain. So I

2 would ask in fact unless it's absolutely necessary, that we continue in

3 public session.

4 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, unless I have -- unless I am mistaken,

5 all the discussion of the publicly named victims has been done in public.

6 Where I have gone into private, at least my intention has been just for

7 the names of the people who made the statements and perhaps where they're

8 from or some identifying information about them. But I'm certainly in

9 agreement that besides that a lot of what we can do we can do in public.

10 And I will proceed on that basis, if that's acceptable.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

12 MR. BLACK:

13 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I'm going to resume my questioning now, and to do

14 that I'd ask you to look behind tab 12 in the binders there in front of

15 you. Perhaps the usher can assist you. We actually looked at this

16 document a few minutes ago. It bears the ERN K0327273 to 7274. And if

17 you could please look at the second page of the B/C/S which is the third

18 page I believe of the English translation. I'm going to read part of it

19 out to you and I would like you to focus on this with a view to whether

20 or not this is an accurate record of what was told to you by this

21 witness. This is, by the way, from a statement dated 28th July, 1998.

22 And it says: "Jeta Hasani from the village of Gornje Godance and

23 Fahredin Gashi from Stimlje, among others, were all involved in the

24 terrorist operations in the village of Gornje Godance, when Agim Ademi,

25 Zmeri Suceri, Ahmeti Veselj and others were kidnapped and taken away.

1 Their involvement was confirmed by" -- I won't read the next part -- "who

2 recognised these two persons when they and some other persons stormed his

3 house in camouflage uniform and carrying automatic rifles."

4 And then if you'll go down to the second-to-last paragraph it

5 says: "As for the persons who were kidnapped in the village of Zborce,

6 Agim Ademi, Zumeri Suceri, and Vesel Ahmeti, I heard that they were in a

7 place called Lapusnik, and that they sometimes took them to a place near

8 Kijevo."

9 Now, Mr. Jasovic, those passages that I've read out, is that an

10 accurate recollection of the information you received from this person?

11 A. As for the kidnapping of Agim Ademi, Zymeri Suceri and Veselj

12 Ahmeti and others, apart from this statement we also have other

13 statements. And it's correct they were kidnapped on the 27th of June

14 from their family homes. And in early July 1998 we learned that through

15 Zborce near Mirovac [phoen] and Sedlare they were taken to the prison in

16 Lapusnik. The kidnapping was carried out by the --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter did not hear the names.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fahrudin Gashi from Stimlje,

19 municipality of Stimlje, and Jeta Hasani from Gornje Godance

20 municipality.

21 MR. BLACK:

22 Q. Mr. Jasovic, let me interrupt you for just a second and it's just

23 really to ask you to speak a little more slowly because I notice the

24 interpreters sometimes are having trouble catching the names. Can you

25 just repeat the names you said of the people who carried out these

1 kidnappings.

2 A. The kidnappers of these persons were: Ramiz Qeriqi, known as

3 Duan [as interpreted], from the village Krajmirovce, Lipjan municipality;

4 Fahrudin Gashi, known as Faki, from Stimlje, municipality of Stimlje;

5 Jeta Hasani from Gornje Godance, municipality of Stimlje; and there were

6 a few other unidentified Siptar terrorists of the so-called KLA who took

7 part in the kidnappings.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic. I'm not sure if there was a mistake

9 perhaps in the transcript. What is -- what was Ramiz Qeriqi known as?

10 What was his pseudonym?

11 A. Zuan [as interpreted].

12 Q. Can you spell that, please.

13 A. Luan, L-j-u-a-n [as interpreted].

14 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. I think that's clear.

15 Sir, you mentioned that in early July 1998 you learned that these

16 people were taken to the prison in Lapusnik. How did you learn that

17 information?

18 A. I learned it from a registered operative connection.

19 Q. Is this the same registered informant that we named earlier in

20 private session?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I think we can move on to the next document. This one is behind

23 tab 14. This is a statement dated 13th August, 1998, and we looked at a

24 part of it earlier. But if you could turn to page 3 in the B/C/S or page

25 6 in the English version. I'm just going to read out a couple of

1 passages and again focus on them to see if they are an accurate record of

2 what this witness told you. That's what I'm interested in for the time

3 being.

4 It says: "At the end of June, beginning of July, a terrorist

5 group from Petrastica village was operating in Gornje Godance village and

6 had kidnapped the following persons and taken them in an unknown

7 direction: Agim Ademi, Vesel Ahmeti, Shyqeri Zimberi and Adem Ramadani."

8 And then a bit further down from that, I think it's the next

9 paragraph, says: "The terrorists, Jete Hasani and his group, took the

10 kidnapped persons, Agim Ademi, Vesel Ahmeti, Shyqeri Zymberi and Ademi

11 Ramadani, to a prison in Klecka."

12 Is that an accurate record of what this person told you on the

13 13th of August, 1998?

14 A. All the kidnapped persons of Serb or Albanian ethnicity,

15 regardless of whether they were kidnapped on the premises of the village

16 of Crnoljevo or Gornje Godance, both in the municipality of Stimlje,

17 according to our information were not taken directly to the prison in

18 Lapusnik. But the persons, because this part of the road from Gornje

19 Godance leads through the village of Zborce, Krajmirovce, Klecka,

20 Sedlare, to Lapusnik. And probably these persons were taken to the first

21 KLA staff first and then to the prison in Lapusnik. I assume that this

22 is correct and that first they were taken to Klecka and -- to Klecka and

23 then to the prison.

24 Q. At the time this statement was taken on the 13th of August, 1998,

25 had you already received information that these people had been taken to

1 Lapusnik?

2 A. Yes. As I said, we learned this from a registered informant.

3 Q. Okay. And why didn't you -- why didn't you include this

4 information in this statement? Why didn't you say in there that these

5 people had been taken to Lapusnik?

6 A. There are notes and there is information. We had to leave the

7 area, I mean the secretariat of the interior, in a day. So these were

8 left behind.

9 Q. No, I'm sorry. I think -- it may be too obvious a question or

10 too simple, but if you knew or you had heard that these people had been

11 taken to Lapusnik, why didn't you put is that in this statement here of

12 the 13th of August, 1998?

13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I -- if I might. I believe that --

14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe that the question is objectionable on a

16 number of grounds not the least being that this statement as I understand

17 is attributed to a specific individual as opposed to being an official

18 note or any other form of memorialisation of this particular witness.

19 Also, I believe that the answer is clear because of the rest of

20 the information that is contained in that which Mr. Black was just

21 reading which is after the word to a prison in Klecka, it says "Once

22 there, they were tortured and then thrown into a well. I don't know what

23 happened to them."

24 Perhaps that might answer Mr. Black's question.

25 JUDGE PARKER: I'm not quite sure whether that was an objection

1 or an offer of assistance, Mr. Black.

2 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, I have an objection.

3 JUDGE PARKER: May I deal with that first?

4 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes, of course. I'll wait.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

6 This is a statement from a witness and if this is apparently what

7 the witness said, you could confirm that. But to go on and ask why this

8 witness didn't add to what a witness was telling him in a statement

9 information that he had at another time from another source, this is

10 something quite unhelpful and objectionable.

11 MR. BLACK: I certainly agree with that. And I think the purpose

12 of my question was so subtle it might not be noticed. I wasn't asking

13 him to say why another witness didn't say this. I was not focused on the

14 substance. I was focused on the procedure of taking a statement and I

15 was asking him why he didn't put things that he knew into the statement.

16 But I'm happy to move on. I wasn't trying to --

17 JUDGE PARKER: We seem all to be assuming that a statement would

18 reflect what the person making the statement said. That may not be a

19 valid assumption in this world, but I think that's what we can expect

20 people here to work on.

21 MR. BLACK: Very well, and, Your Honour, I believe the witness

22 testified to that exact manner earlier. Generally speaking, I thought

23 this might be an example. But I'll move on.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Before you do, is there something more?

25 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honour has done it for me.

1 JUDGE PARKER: All right. We'll just leave it at that then.

2 MR. BLACK:

3 Q. In that case, Mr. Jasovic, if you'll turn to the next document

4 which is behind tab 15.

5 MR. BLACK: For the record, the ERN of this documents is

6 0188-6157 to 6158, and it's a statement dated the 8th of September, 1998.

7 Q. Mr. Jasovic, would you look at this document and see if you can

8 find your name and signature on the last page.

9 A. Yes. This is my signature and that of Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo,

10 Srboljub Vojinovic, and Miroslav Antic, and there is a seal of the

11 Republic of Serbia.

12 Q. Did you take this statement, you and these other gentlemen or

13 these other individuals?

14 A. Yes, these other three took the statement together with me, the

15 other three signatories I mean.

16 MR. BLACK: Could we go briefly into private session, Your

17 Honour.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

8 MR. BLACK:

9 Q. And if you could just look, Mr. Jasovic, at the first page of

10 this statement. It's on the second page of the English translation which

11 Mr. Younis has put on the Sanction. It says there, and please follow

12 along: "While Fahredin Gashi was staying at my house, I asked him who

13 had kidnapped Agim Ademi, Shyqyri Zymberi, Ahmeti Veseli from Gornje

14 Godance village."

15 And there's a blank there, it says "replied that he had taken

16 part in the kidnappings of these persons together with KLA commander

17 Ramiz Qeriqi, Jete Hasani, and others, whose names he didn't mention. He

18 explained how they had used Lada Niva vans, taken the road in Gornje

19 Godance that goes by the Zborce River and then returned the same way once

20 the operation was finished. He said that they had taken Agim, Vesel and

21 Shyqyri to the 'KLA' staff in Krajmirovac, from where they were taken to

22 a location near Kosovska Mitrovica where they were tortured in a well,

23 and then transferred to an unknown location."

24 Mr. Jasovic, was that information given to you by the person who

25 made this statement?

1 A. Yes, it's correct because I know this person. I knew that person

2 long before, 15 or 20 years before. And he himself came to the premises

3 of the Urosevac police station to tell me about this.

4 It's a fact that Fahrudin Gashi's father, Haradin Gashi, brought

5 Fahrudin's wife to the village of Gornje Godance, Stimlje municipality,

6 and Fahrudin Gashi as a KLA member used to come with Mr. Luan and Jete

7 Hasani to visit his wife. In my view this correction is correct. Zete

8 Surak [phoen] conducted the interview.

9 Q. Did you ever receive other information about these three men

10 being taken to a location near Kosovska Mitrovica?

11 A. Apart from this information, we as a service and I personally did

12 not receive any other information. It's possible they took them to

13 Kosovska Mitrovica in order to physically maltreat and torture them

14 because all information indicates that the three kidnapped persons were

15 subjected to violence and torture by Albanians belonging to the so-called

16 KLA.

17 Q. Okay. Let me take you to the next document which is behind tab

18 16.

19 MR. BLACK: The ERN number of this document for the record is

20 U001-0689 to 0690. It purports to be a statement of September 9, 1998.

21 Q. Mr. Jasovic, do you see your name on the last page of that

22 document?

23 A. I see my name and that the statement was taken by Momcilo

24 Sparavalo, an inspector of the public security, and Darko Amanovic, an

25 inspector of the state security of the secretariat of the interior in

1 Urosevac.

2 Q. And were you present when this statement was taken?

3 A. Yes, and besides me these two persons were also present.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. BLACK: Could we go briefly into private session, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

20 MR. BLACK:

21 Q. And I'd like you to look with me, Mr. Jasovic, at the first

22 paragraph of that statement where it says: "Your office is well aware of

23 the incident that took place at the end of June this year when Siptar

24 terrorists from the KLA came to Gornje Godance village, Stimlje

25 municipality, and kidnapped... Agim Ademi, whose fate remains unknown.

1 Subsequently, we heard from the villagers in Gornje Godance that Agim had

2 been kidnapped by the following: The 'KLA' commander for Petrastica and

3 Krajmirovac, whose nickname is Luan; by Jete Hasani, from Gornje Godance;

4 by Fahredin Gashi, from Stimlje, and others whose name I don't know.

5 This had all been ordered by Jete Hasani."

6 And then the next sentence which says: "He also knew where

7 Ahmeti Veseli and Shyqyri Zymberi, another two persons that were

8 kidnapped, resided."

9 Now, Mr. Jasovic, was this information given to you by the person

10 we just mentioned in private session?

11 A. Yes, this is correct. We received this information from the

12 person I mentioned previously. And I would like to point out that when

13 Agim Ademi was kidnapped by the Siptar terrorists, the commander Ovak

14 Haceric [phoen] and Ramiz, Luan, they threatened the family of the

15 victims in case they reported the case to the police station in Stimlje

16 or to our secretariat in Urosevac.

17 Q. Thank you. I think we can move to the next document; it's behind

18 tab 23. The ERN number is 0188-6164, a statement dated 10 December 1998.

19 Mr. Jasovic, do you see your name, signature, and a stamp there at the

20 bottom of the page?

21 A. Yes, I see my name and authorised officials Momcilo Sparavalo and

22 Darko Amanovic -- Jasovic [as interpreted], and also the seal of the

23 Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia.

24 Q. And did you and those other men take this statement?

25 A. The three of us took this statement and throughout the taking of

1 the statement we were all present.

2 MR. BLACK: Could we go briefly into private session, Your

3 Honour, please.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

16 MR. BLACK:

17 Q. If you look at the first paragraph of this statement. It says:

18 "I live in Gornje Godance village, Stimlje municipality, and I heard from

19 the villagers there that at the end of June 1998 'KLA' members forcefully

20 took the following persons from their homes and took them in an unknown

21 direction: Shyqyri Zymberi, Ahmeti Veseli and Agim Ademi. Their fate

22 remains unknown to this day. I heard that these persons were kidnapped

23 by Ramiz Qeriqi, aka Luan; Fahredin Gashi, aka Faruk; and Jete Hasani,

24 who were KLA members in the Petrastica and Krajmirovac village areas."

25 Mr. Jasovic, was that information given to you by the person that

1 we -- that gave this statement?

2 A. Yes, that's correct. We received this information from the

3 person who gave this statement.

4 Q. Thank you. I'm -- I'll ask you to turn to the next document

5 behind tab 24. For the record the ERN of this document is 0188-6166.

6 It's a statement dated 14 January, 1999.

7 Mr. Jasovic, do you see your name or signature on the bottom of

8 that page?

9 A. The statement was taken by me, Momcilo Sparavalo, and Srboljub

10 Vojinovic.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. BLACK: Could we go briefly into private session, Your

13 Honour?

14 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

1 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

2 MR. BLACK:

3 Q. Mr. Jasovic, again I'll ask you for you to follow along with me.

4 I'm just going to read a couple of parts of the first paragraph.

5 It says: "I know that in June 1998 Agim Ademi, Shyqyri Zymberi,

6 and Vesel Ahmeti were kidnapped from their homes after 2300 hours and

7 taken in an unknown direction by the following members of the so-called

8 'KLA': Ramiz Qeriqi, aka Luan; Fahredin Gashi, aka Faruk; and Jete

9 Hasani and his group. These KLA members kidnapped Ademi Ramadani and

10 Shefqet Ramadani from their family homes and took them to Gornje Godance

11 village. They were released 25 days later and allowed to go home."

12 Mr. Jasovic, the same question that I've been asking before: Was

13 this information given to you by the person that made this statement?

14 A. Yes, that's correct. The person who signed the statement gave

15 this information on the 14th of January, 1999. It was clear to everyone

16 who the perpetrators were.

17 Q. Thank you. We're done with that document.

18 Now Mr. Jasovic, did you know any of the men that we have been

19 discussing personally? I mean Agim Ademi, Vesel Ahmeti, Shyqyri Zymeri,

20 Adem Ramadani or Shefqet Ramadani. Did you know any of them personally?

21 A. I knew all three of them. Shyqyri Zymeri was a person I knew and

22 probably the motive for his kidnapping was that a patrol of a police

23 station when patrolling Gornje Godance would stop at his shop, Zymeri

24 Shyqyri's shop, and would probably have a drink there. The Siptar

25 terrorists of the so-called KLA didn't like this because they thought he

1 was giving interesting information, of interest for our service, to the

2 policemen who entered his shop; this was not correct. Vesel Ahmeti I

3 think was a member of the SPS and a member of the temporary Executive

4 Board formed in Kosovo and Metohija and that was the reason for his

5 kidnapping.

6 As for Agim Ademi, he associated with all good people, regardless

7 of their ethnic affiliation. He didn't care whether someone was a Serb,

8 an Albanian, a Turk, or belonged to some other ethnic group.

9 Q. Do you know if any of those men, Shyqyri Zymeri, Vesel Ahmeti, or

10 Agim Ademi were paid informants of the police?

11 A. No, it's not true that they were paid informants of the police,

12 that is of the secretariat of the interior.

13 Q. Let me ask you about Ademi Ramadani and Shefqet Ramadani. Did

14 you know either one of those men?

15 A. I knew Shefqet Ramadani because he was an electrician and I know

16 he was kidnapped and taken to the prison in Lapusnik and that he was

17 released I think on the 25th of July, 1998.

18 As for Adem Ramadani, I knew him by sight. I would sit in a

19 catering establishment with Shefqet. I'm referring to Shefqet Ramadani.

20 Q. As far as you know, were either of those men Adem Ramadani or

21 Shefqet Ramadani paid informants of the police?

22 A. Neither was. Neither was an informant of the MUP of the Republic

23 of Serbia.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic. Now I'm going to move on to a somewhat

25 different topic, a different group of victims. If you turn back to the

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1 beginning of your binder, please, to the document behind tab 4.

2 MR. BLACK: For the record, this document bears the ERN 0188-5946

3 to 5967. It's a statement dated 29 June, 1998, it's behind tab 4.

4 Q. Mr. Jasovic, do you see your name and signature and a stamp on

5 the second page of that statement?

6 A. Yes, this statement was taken by my partner, Momcilo Sparavalo

7 and I.

8 Q. Who gave this statement? And you can say this name in public

9 session.

10 A. This statement was given by Mrs. Vesna Bakrac on the 29th of

11 June, 1998, on the premises of the secretariat of the interior, Urosevac.

12 In Urosevac.

13 Q. And what was the subject of this statement? What did Mrs. Bakrac

14 tell you?

15 A. On the said day around 1100 hours, the police -- the policemen of

16 the police station in Stimlje informed the chief of the Urosevac SUP that

17 an incident had happened on the main road from Stimlje via Crnoljevo to

18 Prizren whereupon the chief of the secretariat Bogoljub Janicevic

19 summoned me and told me, Dragan, go to Stimlje. Because some Serbs had

20 been kidnapped in Crnoljevo.

21 Q. Let me focus on -- specifically on what Mrs. Bakrac told you.

22 Did she say -- did she tell you what happened to her or to the people

23 with her?

24 A. When we arrived at Stimlje, when we arrived at the place where

25 the police checkpoint was, a location overlooking Stimlje facing

1 Crnoljevo, there was a bus standing there, the driver standing outside.

2 And he told us the story. When we arrived, there was this woman, Vesna

3 Bakrac, lying on the ground crying. And she was saying, Please get me

4 back my husband and son. We barely managed to calm her down and we took

5 her into her car and drove her to the police station in Urosevac. We had

6 told the bus driver to follow us to the secretariat.

7 On the spot and later he told us that several Siptar terrorists,

8 members of the so-called KLA --

9 Q. Let me interrupt you, Mr. Jasovic, I'm sorry, maybe I haven't put

10 them in the best order. I'm going to show you a couple of documents.

11 But please for the moment let's focus on the statement of Vesna Bakrac on

12 the 29th of June, 1998, and tell me, did he tell you what happened to the

13 people that she was with?

14 A. She told me that Siptar terrorists had stopped the bus on the

15 main road. This was a regular service from Djakovica towards Pristina,

16 stopping in Crnoljevo and Stimlje. She said that these KLA members got

17 into the bus and asked the driver, Are there any Serbs in here? They

18 demanded that everybody show them their IDs and they took out Mr. Bakrac,

19 the father, and Ivan Bakrac, the son of the woman, along with two other

20 Serbs.

21 Q. You said that the bus had been stopped on the main road. Which

22 main road? Could you be more specific, please.

23 A. This road goes from Prizren, Suva Reka, Stimlje, to Pristina, and

24 they were stopped in the centre of the Crnoljevo village on the main

25 road. So this all happened in the centre of Crnoljevo village, Stimlje

1 municipality.

2 Q. Did Mrs. Bakrac have a chance to review and sign this statement?

3 A. She reviewed the statement and signed it. We took her to

4 Pristina and she cried all the way.

5 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, at this point I would move this

6 document be admitted into evidence. I haven't done that with the others

7 because I've just been trying to focus on the important bits, but this

8 document -- in fact the entire thing refers to this incident. I would

9 ask that it be given the next exhibit number, please.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 4 would be given Prosecution Exhibit Number

13 P205.

14 MR. BLACK: Thank you.

15 Q. If we could move then, Mr. Jasovic, to the document behind tab a

16 5. For the record, the ERN is 0188-5967.

17 Mr. Jasovic, this is another statement from the 29th of June,

18 1998. Did you take this statement as well?

19 A. Yes, I did, together with Mr. Sparavalo. It was taken on the

20 premises of the secretariat of the interior of Urosevac in Urosevac.

21 Q. And who made this statement?

22 A. The statement was given on the 29th of June, 1998, by Nexhat

23 Kosturi. I don't know whether it was the driver or the person checking

24 the tickets on the bus.

25 Q. If it would refresh your memory, you can refer to this document

1 to tell whether it was the driver or the conductor.

2 A. It's the conductor, actually. The conductor who worked on the

3 bus with Djakovica licence plates. I see it's Shpetim Skivjani.

4 Q. Thank you. We don't need to read this out, but I would ask you to

5 take a moment and read this to yourself, please.

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 MR. BLACK:

8 Q. Mr. Jasovic, does this statement relate to the same incident that

9 you were just discussing with us about Vesna Bakrac's statement?

10 A. Yes, that's correct. It refers to the persons who were

11 kidnapped, Vojko Bakrac, Ivan Bakrac, and two other persons. At the

12 time, we thought it was a Serb victim but we identified him later as

13 Genov, Stamen. I don't know what ethnicity is that. And another victim

14 was named Cuk. He was either from Bosnia or Croatia, I can't remember

15 which.

16 Q. Does this statement here in front of you, does that say where the

17 people were kidnapped?

18 A. The statement matches the information given by Mrs. Vesna Bakrac.

19 They were kidnapped from the bus in the centre of Crnoljevo village,

20 Stimlje municipality while following the main road.

21 Q. Does it give any description of the perpetrators, the kidnappers?

22 A. Yes. Here below it says: "I demanded" --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I asked the man to describe the

25 perpetrators."

1 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I would ask that this receive the next

2 exhibit number.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 5 would be Prosecution Exhibit P206.

5 MR. BLACK: Thank you. We can move to the next document which is

6 behind tab 6. For the record the ERN is 0188-5950 and it is another

7 statement dated 29 June, 1998.

8 Q. Did you take this statement, Mr. Jasovic?

9 A. It was taken by me and Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo.

10 Q. Who gave this statement?

11 A. The statement was given by Mr. Shpetim Skivjani, occupation bus

12 driver. Bus with Djakovica licence plates.

13 Q. Does this relate to the same incident that we've been discussing?

14 A. Yes. It relates to the incident in which the bus with the

15 Djakovica licence plates was intercepted on the main road in the centre

16 of Crnoljevo village and four persons were taken off the bus and

17 kidnapped, Vojko and Ivan Bakrac and two other persons.

18 Q. Did this person give a description of the perpetrators?

19 A. Yes, he did, in the second half of the statement.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I would ask that it receive the next

22 exhibit number, please.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 6 would be Prosecution Exhibit P207.

25 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much.

1 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I'll ask you now to look at the next document behind

2 tab 7.

3 MR. BLACK: For the record, the ERN is 0188-5938 to 5939 and it

4 is a criminal report dated 30 June 1998.

5 Q. Mr. Jasovic, did you prepare this criminal report?

6 A. This criminal report was written by me and Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo

7 based on the statements we had taken from the driver, from the conductor,

8 and from Vesna Bakrac. This criminal report was filed relating to the

9 criminal offence of terrorism, Article 2 of the Criminal Code, and it was

10 forwarded to the competent public prosecutor's office, district

11 prosecutor's office in Pristina because the municipal court did not

12 exist. There was only the district court.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic. In addition to the statements, did --

14 were you able to gather any physical evidence regarding this incident?

15 And by that I mean any documents or other items besides witness

16 statements.

17 A. After reporting an incident, the usual procedure is that the SUP

18 of Urosevac continue to work on shedding more light on the events, and in

19 the course of the investigation we established that the Siptar terrorists

20 cut off the main road, Dulje and his partner set up a checkpoint there,

21 stopped all traffic, demanded IDs from all passengers. When they stopped

22 a bus they would inquire if there were any Serbs among the passengers and

23 they would also target Albanians whom they considered disloyal or

24 dishonest and they would take them off the bus and away.

25 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I think my question wasn't very clear. What I meant

1 was: On the 29th of June, 1998, in addition to talking to Mrs. Bakrac

2 and the driver and the conductor, were any items found?

3 A. I'm sorry. On the bus itself we found some clues that helped us

4 identify Mr. Genov, Stamen, one of the victims. We found a chequebook

5 and some other documents he had left behind. I can't remember the

6 details. Mr. Genov, Stamen, was an active-duty army officer. I believe

7 his little bag was there as well.

8 Q. If it would refresh your recollection, maybe you would like to

9 look at this criminal report and see if that reminds you which items were

10 found.

11 A. A pistol of the Crna Zastava type was found, 45-millimetre

12 calibre, serial number 294913, 15 cheques of the postal savings bank with

13 the number of his savings account: 11471714, on which occasion we also

14 established his identity. He was Genov, Stamen. We also found his

15 travel bag and some other personal items, including money in the amount

16 of 150 German marks.

17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jasovic, who recovered those items, do you

18 remember?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MR. BLACK:

21 Q. Do you remember who recovered those items, Mr. Jasovic?

22 A. I don't remember if it was my colleague, Mr. Sparavalo, or maybe

23 Mr. Rado Radovic, another employee of the Urosevac SUP.

24 Q. Thank you. I don't know if you've already mentioned the name,

25 but were you ever able to determine the identity of the fourth person

1 taken from the bus in addition to Vojko Bakrac, Ivan Bakrac, and Stamen

2 Genov?

3 A. As far as this fourth person is concerned, we managed to

4 establish his identity only a year ago. Mr. Branko Debeljkovic, head of

5 the criminal investigation police was in charge of the case. This

6 department covers general crimes and white-collar crimes. This is the

7 department I work in myself.

8 Q. And what identity were you able to establish?

9 A. We established that it was a Mr. Djordje Cuk, a refugee, who

10 lived as a refugee in Djakovica.

11 Q. And do you remember how you were able to establish that?

12 A. This is how it was: His brother, whose name I don't remember,

13 reported the case to the International Red Cross in Belgrade and some

14 other international agencies, also in Belgrade. This brother said that

15 his brother had set off on a trip by bus with Djakovica licence plates.

16 He cited the date and the time of departure.

17 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, before it escapes me, could I ask for

18 the next exhibit number for this document?

19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Tab number 7 would be Prosecution Exhibit P208.

21 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much.

22 Q. Mr. Jasovic, after the day of the kidnappings, did you have any

23 further contact with Vesna Bakrac?

24 A. We talked to her almost every day because she had left for

25 Pristina and she found a place to stay there and reported the case to the

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1 ICRC. She called us every day to ask if we had found out anything new

2 about her husband and her son, and every time she would call I would ask

3 her if she had received any new information.

4 Q. And did you learn anything about the fate of her husband and her

5 son?

6 A. If I am not mistaken, we found on the 6th of July, 1998, that Mr.

7 Vojko Bakrac and his son Ivan had been released. We found this out from

8 some policemen. Vojko and Ivan had come back from the direction of

9 Crnoljevo, and in Stimlje they were stopped by the police from the MUP of

10 Serbia.

11 On this occasion I, with the approval of my superior, the chief

12 of Urosevac SUP, Mr. Bogoljub Janicevic, went out to talk to Vojko and

13 Ivan Bakrac, but I was not given access to them by the ICRC. (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted). There is an

16 official note relating to this and there is also the letter that we sent

17 to the competent authorities of the MUP of Serbia.

18 Q. Just one small point of clarification. You said that Vojko and

19 Ivan Bakrac were stopped by the MUP in Stimlje. Were they alone when

20 they were stopped or were they with someone else?

21 A. They were not alone. There was a driver with them and some other

22 people. I can't remember unless you let me read this document, this

23 letter. But it's certain that they were not alone. They were

24 accompanied by people from the ICRC, who were escorting them.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you. Were you ever able to learn in your

1 investigations what happened to them between the day they were kidnapped

2 and the day they were released?

3 A. Everything we learned about Albanians and Serbs who were

4 kidnapped, specifically in the Stimlje municipality in Crnoljevo village,

5 in Belince village, Petrovo village, Gornje Godance, all of these

6 villages belonging to Stimlje municipality, indicates that they were

7 taken via Petrastica, Krajmirovce, Sedlare, Kvocka, towards Lapusnik

8 prison, or from Gornje Godance through various villages ending with

9 Klecka to the Lapusnik prison in Glogovac municipality.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jasovic, I'm going to ask you to look at another

11 document now. It's behind tab 10 in your binder.

12 MR. BLACK: For the record, the ERN is 0188-8642 to 8643. It's a

13 statement dated 21 July, 1998.

14 Q. Mr. Jasovic, did you take this statement?

15 A. The statement was taken by me and my colleague, Momcilo

16 Sparavalo.

17 MR. BLACK: Could we go into private session, Your Honour?

18 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

7 MR. BLACK:

8 Q. Mr. Jasovic, please follow along with me. In the first paragraph

9 of the statement it says: "I can't remember the exact date but I know it

10 was sometime at the end of June 1998 when I personally saw Rrahman Tafa

11 and Ramadan Lushi, both from Crnoljevo, stopping vehicles from the

12 Stimlje-Crnoljevo-Dulje main road, near the old school. They were

13 checking identification documents, searching passengers in the vehicles."

14 And then a bit further down it says that a person "told me that

15 Rrahman Tafa, Ramadan Lushi and another person, whose name I don't know,

16 had come to a store and when the three of them left they had stopped a

17 bus that was travelling in the direction of Stimlje. While checking

18 identification documents in the bus, they had removed four Serbs and took

19 them in the direction of Drenica - to Lausa village I think - through

20 Petrastica and Krajmirovce. After a while I heard that two of these

21 people had been released."

22 It continues: "As far as Rrahman Tafa and Ramadan Lushi are

23 concerned, I heard that the two of them in their group had come down to

24 Petrastica village on the main road and had stopped vehicles on the

25 stretch from the centre of Crnoljevo to the old school in Crnoljevo.

1 Their intent was to kidnap Serbs and those Siptars who were loyal

2 citizens."

3 Mr. Jasovic, was that information given to you by the person we

4 had just mentioned in private session?

5 A. That's correct. This information was obtained from the person we

6 mentioned, yes.

7 Q. There are a couple of references to Ramadan Lushi. Do you know

8 if that person was ever known by another name?

9 A. Ramadan Lushi is in fact Ramadan Behluli. They call them Lushi

10 by their grandfather or great-grandfather.

11 Q. Before I move away from that document, a little further down it

12 says: "Two or three weeks ago I saw Rrahman Tafa, Ramadan Lushi and Naim

13 Azemi... all from Crnoljevo, in a white Lada Niva vehicle on the

14 Crnoljevo-Petrastica dirt road."

15 Then I'll skip a sentence. And then it says: "The owners of

16 this white-coloured Lada Niva are brothers Vehbi and Fehmi Tafa, whose

17 last name is also Tafa, but their father is Xhem. I know this Lada stays

18 in Petrastica village and is used by terrorists to travel to places where

19 terrorists operations will be undertaken."

20 Mr. Jasovic, was this information also given to you by the person

21 who gave this statement?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. That was the the person who gave the

23 information. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you o move to the next document; it's behind

25 tab 13.

1 MR. BLACK: The ERN of this document for the record is 0188-5956.

2 It's a receipt dated 1st of August, 1998.

3 Q. Mr. Jasovic, do you recognise this document?

4 A. Yes, I did. I handed over documents to a military officer

5 carrying out military security tasks. On the 1st of August, 1998, I

6 returned to this person items belonging to sergeant Stamen Genov: One

7 pistol, Crna Zastava, 7.65 millimetres in calibre; one ammunition clip

8 with a 7.65-millimetre shells; 150 German marks, serial number -- I don't

9 know if I need to --

10 Q. You don't need to read the serial numbers and I'll ask you to go

11 slower. But in fact you don't need to read that all out. Can you just

12 tell me where these items were all found.

13 A. The items were found in the bus with a Djakovica licence plate in

14 front of the secretariat of the interior in Urosevac where the bus was

15 parked. In order to interview the driver and the conductor of the bus

16 bearing a Djakovica licence plate as well as with Vesna Bakrac.

17 Q. Okay. And just so it's 100 per cent clear, is this the same bus

18 that we had discussed earlier?

19 A. Yes, that's correct. The bus that was stopped on the 27th of

20 June, 1998.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I would ask that this receive the next

23 exhibit number, please.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Tab number --

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stopped in Crnoljevo.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Tab number 13 would be Prosecution Exhibit P209.

3 MR. BLACK:

4 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I'm going to ask you to turn to the document behind

5 tab 14 again. We've looked at it before. I'm going to ask you about a

6 different part. This is the statement dated 13 August 1998, with ERN

7 U000-1414 to 1417. Mr. Jasovic, you should look at page 3 of the B/C/S

8 version and it's page 6, the top of page 7 in the English.

9 Mr. Jasovic, I'm going to read out another part to you and I want

10 you to listen and see if this is the information you received.

11 MR. BLACK: For your information, Your Honours, the Sanction

12 doesn't seem to be working very well, so we're not going to get this

13 document up on Sanction. But I'll proceed anyhow.

14 Q. Mr. Jasovic, if you can follow along. It says: "I also know

15 that the terrorist operations on the Stimlje-Dulje main road were carried

16 out by so-called KLA terrorists: Skender Hasani (son of Shefli) from

17 Petrastica; Ramadan Behluli (son of Muharrem) from Crnoljevo; Rrahman

18 Tafa from Crnoljevo; Ali Gashi (son of Ramadan) from Petrastica; and Jete

19 Hasani from Gornje Godance. On one occasion they stopped a bus at a cafe

20 in the centre of Crnoljevo with automatic weapons, removed four Serbs and

21 took them to Klecka."

22 Mr. Jasovic, does that refer to the same incident that we've been

23 discussing?

24 A. Yes, it refers to the bus with the Djakovica licence plate which

25 was stopped on the 29th [Realtime transcript read in error: "27th"] of

1 June, 1998, on the main road in the centre of the village of Crnoljevo

2 municipality of Stimlje.

3 Q. Do you remember the -- you mentioned the 27th of June. Do you

4 remember the date that the bus was stopped?

5 A. The bus was stopped on the 29th of June 1998 after 11.00 during

6 the day.

7 Q. Thank you. I just noticed an error in the transcript and I

8 wanted to clarify that.

9 The sentence in that document, Mr. Jasovic, if you could look

10 again where I was reading before. It says:

11 "Subsequently these same persons stopped a black Golf 3 vehicle

12 and threw its Serb driver into the trunk and took him to Krajmirovac in

13 his own vehicle. I do not know where they took him after that."

14 Was this information also given by the person who gave this

15 statement?

16 A. This information was given by the person who made the statement.

17 The secretariat of the interior in Urosevac did not identify the

18 kidnapped person. It's possible that the person was identified by

19 officials from the Prizren secretariat of the interior. This is probably

20 a person from Prizren because he was travelling from Prizren towards

21 Crnoljevo.

22 MR. BLACK: I'm done with that document.

23 Q. Mr. Jasovic, did you receive other information about Serbs being

24 kidnapped in your area during June and July of 1998?

25 A. Our service, the secretariat of the interior in Urosevac received

1 information that in that area on the main road in the village of

2 Crnoljevo, Stimlje municipality, the following persons were kidnapped:

3 Srboljub Miladinovic, who I know personally. He was a traffic policeman

4 working in Stimlje, and his employment was terminated, I don't know for

5 what reason. Then Miodrag Krstic, known as Mijo, and his brother or

6 relative. The persons were from Suva Reka municipality. And Zivorad

7 Krstic born in the village of Musnikovo, Prizren municipality, residing

8 in Pristina. And from the same bus another Serb was kidnapped whom we

9 were unable to identify. We have information that all the persons who

10 were kidnapped were taken to the prison in Lapusnik in Glogovac

11 municipality. Near Velika Stena is where they were killed.

12 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, is that an appropriate time for a break?

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, yes.

14 We will resume at 5 minutes to 6.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.

17 JUDGE PARKER: I am sorry that it was necessary to have a longer

18 break than planned because of the need for a redaction which only came to

19 my attention after we had adjourned.

20 Yes, Mr. Black.

21 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I'm going to continue my questioning and to do that

23 I would like to ask you to look at the documents behind tab 21.

24 MR. BLACK: For the record, the ERN in the B/C/S version is

25 K022-5715 and the English is 03058555 to 8557.

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1 Q. Mr. Jasovic, did you take this statement?

2 A. Yes. I, Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo, and Mr. Srboljub Vojinovic took

3 this statement.

4 MR. BLACK: Could we go into private session briefly, please?

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

18 MR. BLACK:

19 Q. Mr. Jasovic, you can just please have a look at this document

20 with me. I guess I'll read out the section I want you to focus on.

21 It says: "When we arrived above the village of Petrovo, before

22 the entrance in the Ljuzak mahala, two KLA members in a red Lada Niva

23 caught up with us, made us show our identity cards, and ordered us to

24 turn back. I did not know these people, but I later learned that one of

25 them is nicknamed Dula [sic] and is originally from Drenica while the

1 other one is nicknamed Cak and his first name is Isak, but I do not know

2 where he is from. I got into the Lada Niva, which was driven by Cak,

3 while Dula got into the TAM with Izrija. They took us to the so-called

4 KLA's headquarters in Rance, at which point Cak threw me out of the Lada

5 Niva and kicked me and punched me several times and then Dula and Cak

6 drove off Hizrija in a blue Lada Niva to Drenica. I later learned that

7 they took him to a prison in a place called Lapusnik and to this day I do

8 not know what happened to him."

9 Sir, was this information given to you by the person we just

10 identified in private session?

11 A. Yes. The person I mentioned on the 6th of October, 1998, gave

12 this statement because Hyzri Hajrizi from village Belince, municipality

13 of Stimlje is his uncle and in June of 1998 driving a small TAM truck he

14 went to buy some lime from a lime from a certain Qamil Uka. As the

15 (redacted)

16 vehicle set out towards the village of Petrovo, Stimlje municipality to

17 buy some sugar and vinegar. At the first checkpoint at the exit of the

18 village of Rance he was stopped by two brothers Azem and Agri Huzijo

19 [phoen] and they let them go on in the direction of the village of

20 Petrovo. However, at the entrance to Luzjak mahala, which is about 2

21 kilometres from the village of Petrovo in the direction of the village of

22 Rance, in this vehicle two persons arrived with pseudonyms Cak and Dull

23 and later on I learned from the list of the KLA what the details of these

24 persons were, of Cak and Dull that is.

25 Ramadan Azemi entered the vehicle of the person nicknamed Cak

1 while Dull got into the TAM. They were sent back and returned to the KLA

2 headquarters in Rance in Stimlje municipality. In the village of Rance

3 in the KLA headquarters, they were interviewed and after that, according

4 to our information Dull and Cak took Hyzri Hajrizi to Lapusnik prison in

5 (redacted)

6 of the headquarters and beaten up and then he was told to go home.

7 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I think you said you learned the details of Cak and

8 Dull. Who were those people?

9 A. Cak was Isak Thaqi and Dull is Abdulla Rama. If you will allow

10 me to look at the list I can tell you where they are from.

11 Q. Would looking at the list help you refresh your recollection? Is

12 that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, I do have the list I think he was

15 referring to. It wasn't on the exhibit list because I was -- the

16 possible exhibit list because I was not intending to tender it. Perhaps

17 I could show it to Defence counsel and he could have a look at it. I

18 think it may refresh his recollection.

19 JUDGE PARKER: It's something that has not been seen by the

20 Defence yet?

21 MR. BLACK: It has been disclosed to the Defence.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Yes.

23 MR. BLACK: Could this be passed first to Defence counsel and

24 then to the witness.

25 And perhaps, Your Honour, while that's being looked at I think we

1 -- it would be good to have a redaction page 65, line 9. There is a name

2 mentioned. If we could have that redacted, please. I believe it was

3 mentioned twice, once at the beginning of a paragraph and then a couple

4 lines down.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

6 MR. BLACK: Thank you.

7 Mr. Younis informs me that page 64, line 19, is the other

8 mentioned.

9 [Prosecution counsel confer]

10 MR. BLACK:

11 Q. Is that the list you had asked for, Mr. Jasovic?

12 A. Yes, but there is one page missing from the beginning I believe.

13 Under number 1 there is a person named Isak, last name [sic] Cak, born on

14 the 18th of June, 1968, in Komorane, Glogovac village, nicknamed Caki.

15 Number 4, first name Abdulla, last name Rama, born 17th July, 1968, in

16 Sankovc village, pseudonym Dull.

17 But there is a cover page missing where commander Qerqiz or

18 Qerqiz is mentioned. I have it in my bag.

19 Q. I don't think we need to get that out, but just to be clear, your

20 testimony is that these are the details of Cak and Dull which were

21 mentioned in the statement that we were looking at early. Is that right?

22 A. Yes, that's correct, because from some statements obtained by

23 ethnic Albanians -- obtained from ethnic Albanians, there is a reference

24 to Ismet [as interpreted] Thaqi, local of Komorane. And there is the

25 mention of this 121st Brigade, Rance Company.

1 MR. BLACK: In fact, if I could ask the usher to take that

2 document back and give it back to Mr. Younis.

3 For the record, perhaps I should read -- the ERN of that document

4 is U004-7727.

5 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I would like to ask you to look at another document

6 now. It's behind tab 20 in your binder -- actually, Mr. Jasovic before

7 you get there, I'm sorry to interrupt you. My colleague raises a good

8 point. On the transcript it says -- when we were talking about -- when

9 you were looking at this document that I'm holding up, U004-7727, the

10 transcript says: "There's a person named Isak, last name Cak, nicknamed

11 Thaqi [sic]." Is that the correct name of this person that we were

12 talking about? I'm focused on the surname.

13 A. It's Isak, last name Thaqi, pseudonym Cak.

14 Q. Thank you, sir. Sorry for that interruption. Now I'll turn you

15 to the document behind tab 20 which I think you have open before you.

16 MR. BLACK: For the record, Your Honour, the ERN of this document

17 is U000-4585 to 4586, and in English it's 0303-2855 to 2860. I

18 apologise, Your Honour, I have a discrepancy in my numbers. Mr. Younis,

19 hopefully, is about to save me.

20 I'm sorry, the B/C/S ERN number I gave was wrong; it's in fact

21 K022-5711 to 5714. The English number was correct. Thank you, Mr.

22 Younis.

23 Q. Mr. Jasovic, could you please have a look at that document. Did

24 you take this statement?

25 A. I took it together with my colleague, Momcilo Sparavalo.

1 MR. BLACK: Could we please go into private session, Your Honour?

2 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

15 MR. BLACK: Thank you.

16 Q. Mr. Jasovic, if you could look at page 2 of the B/C/S statement.

17 It's page 3 of the English version. Please follow along with me. I just

18 want to read one paragraph to you.

19 It says: "Two months ago, KLA members kidnapped... Hyzri

20 Hajrizi, son of Oruq, from the village of Belince, Stimlje municipality,

21 who was on his way to get whitewash. I went to the KLA staff in the

22 village of Rance three or four times to inquire... and find out where

23 they had taken him, and when I asked to see the commander, Zimer Kurtisi

24 came to see me and angrily told me that he was the commander's deputy and

25 asked me what I wanted, before ordering Dula to talk to me. Dula told me

1 all of us SPS, short for Socialist Party of Serbia, members and spies

2 ought to be killed, and slapped me a few times across the face. Dula

3 also told me he and a man with a nickname of Cak had taken Hyzri to

4 prison in the village of Lapusnik."

5 Sir, did you receive that information from the person that we

6 just identified in private session?

7 A. Yes, correct. I got this information from the person whose name

8 I mentioned just a minute ago, and this person, as I said, is the nephew

9 of the kidnapped person who went to the KLA headquarters to inquire about

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted). And eventually Dull talked to him and said, naturally, you SPS

14 members will eventually all be killed. And after that, this person was

15 beaten up.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Jasovic, I appreciate the information,

17 but it's not necessary to repeat all the things that I read generally

18 speaking about. Could you turn to the next page, please, which is a

19 supplemental statement. This is on page 5 of the English translation.

20 Just follow along. I'll read out this short paragraph at the very

21 beginning of the supplemental statement.

22 It says -- do you find it, Mr. Jasovic? It says: "I would like

23 to supplement my previous statement by saying that... Hajrizi Hyzri,

24 from the village of Belince, Stimlje municipality, was kidnapped and

25 taken away by the members of the so-called KLA on the orders of brothers

1 Afrim and Agnija Musliju, sons of Isljam, who told members of the

2 so-called KLA that Hizrija socialised with the Serbs and the Serbian

3 police."

4 Mr. Jasovic, did you receive this information from the same

5 person?

6 A. Yes, correct.

7 Q. What was the date of this supplementary statement?

8 A. The 1st of October, 1998, it says here.

9 Q. And did you take that supplementary statement?

10 A. Yes, with my colleague, Srboljub Vojinovic and Momcilo Sparavalo.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic. I'm going to ask you to look at another

12 document now. This one is behind tab 15 of your binder. It's a

13 statement dated 8th September, 1998, and we looked at it briefly earlier.

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 MR. BLACK:

16 Q. Mr. Jasovic, did you take this -- actually, I think we covered

17 that ground. Let me just focus your attention on --

18 A. Yes, we went through this one.

19 Q. Thank you. Let me focus your attention on the last page, the

20 second-to-last paragraph, and I'll just read out the last two sentences.

21 It says: "In Gornji Lapusnik, I was taken by 'KLA' members and brought

22 to the staff and after five or six hours of questioning, I was released.

23 They had inquired about Safet Hisenaj from Petrovo village and asked what

24 he did and who he kept company with."

25 Sir, did you receive that information from the person who signed

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1 this statement?

2 A. Yes, the person who signed the statement.

3 Q. Did you know Safet Hyseni personally?

4 A. I had known him about ten years.

5 Q. How did you know him?

6 A. I knew him because he liked to socialise with police inspectors

7 in Urosevac and we first met in Stimlje. When inspectors would sit down

8 in a coffee bar, he would approach and sit down with us. And it was a

9 state security agent Srboljub Vojinovic who introduced us.

10 Q. To your knowledge, was Safet Hyseni a police informant?

11 A. That is not true.

12 Q. Mr. Jasovic, earlier -- I'm going to go back to some names that

13 we talked about because I forgot to ask you a question. I asked you

14 about Agim Ademi and Vesel Ahmeti and Shyqyri Zymeri and whether they

15 were paid informants and you said they weren't. Were any of these men

16 informants, police informants of any kind, paid or unpaid?

17 A. You mean all three of them?

18 Q. Yes, any one of them or all three of them.

19 A. None of them was an informant of the police or the Ministry of

20 the Interior.

21 Q. What about the Shefqet Ramadani, was he a police informant of any

22 kind?

23 A. No, he was not. It's just that he liked to have a drink with

24 inspectors, police, when they would come to a coffee bar and stuff like

25 that.

1 Q. What about the Ademi Ramadani, was he a police informant of any

2 kind?

3 A. No, he was not. That is not true.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic. I'm going to ask you to look at another

5 document. This one is behind tab 19. For the record, the B/C/S ERN is

6 K022-5692 to 5693. The English is 0306-5483 to 5484.

7 Mr. Jasovic, did you take this statement?

8 A. I did, together with Momcilo Sparavalo.

9 MR. BLACK: Could we briefly go into private session, Your

10 Honour?

11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

23 MR. BLACK:

24 Q. Mr. Jasovic, if I can focus your attention on the second-to-last

25 paragraph, I'm going to read you a couple of sentences. Please follow

1 along.

2 It says: (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, should I -- I'm afraid we're going to

9 have to redact that. Should I go back and go over it again?

10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

11 MR. BLACK:

12 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I apologise. I'm going to have to read that out

13 again.

14 MR. BLACK: Hasan, can you take that off the screen please.

15 Q. It says: "I can also state that Muj Musliju from the village of

16 Belince" --

17 MR. BLACK: That's a good way to handle it. If we could go into

18 private session, Your Honour, this way I can read it without.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE PARKER: I gather you're about to move on to a fresh topic.

13 MR. BLACK: That's correct, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE PARKER: In that event, I think we should break now to

15 resume tomorrow at 2.15.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of

18 April, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.

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