1 Monday, 30 May 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Selimi, if I would remind you of the

7 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence. That still

8 applies.

9 Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

10 WITNESS: REXHEP SELIMI [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE PARKER: It is not.

13 MR. MANSFIELD: We've had some very quick testimony, but not that

14 quick.

15 Examined by Mr. Mansfield: [Continued]

16 Q. Mr. Selimi, good afternoon. You will recall on Friday we had

17 reached or just about to reach 1997 and then the return of Fatmir Limaj

18 to Kosovo in 1998. So we're dealing with that period. And I'LL come

19 straight to Fatmir Limaj himself.

20 Do you recall where or when it was that you first met Fatmir

21 Limaj upon his return to Kosovo?

22 A. Yes, I do remember.

23 Q. Could you just kindly tell us what you recall about that.

24 A. I know that the time when Fatmir Limaj returned from abroad was a

25 time when many were coming back to Kosova. It was a time after 5th of

1 March, 1998, after the heroic fall of legendary commander Adem Jashari

2 and the mobilisation of people to support the KLA was of a high level.

3 Amongst those who returned to Kosova to fight for its freedom was Fatmir

4 Limaj.

5 The time I met him was early March or mid-March 1998 in Likovc,

6 Drenica area.

7 Q. And when you met him, was he on his own or with a group? What

8 was the position?

9 A. I cannot recall it in details, but I believe he was with other

10 men who came either together, either separately, and who at the time were

11 all gathering at Likovc.

12 Q. Was there a particular reason why they were gathering there at

13 Likovc?

14 A. Of course there was. Not only Likovc but entire Drenica was a

15 zone where combat was going on between the KLA forces and the repressive

16 forces of the Serb government, the Serb police forces. Drenica was an

17 area where frontal combat was going on between the KLA forces and the

18 Serb forces.

19 Q. Now, at that time was that the only operational zone in Kosovo or

20 were there other ones of an equal nature?

21 A. At that time it seems that this was the only zone where KLA

22 soldiers gathered. It was the only of the kind.

23 Q. Now, in relation to, therefore, Drenica zone in March of 1998,

24 could you tell us a little about how that was organised, if it was

25 organised at all.

1 A. The organisation of KLA soldiers at that time depended on the

2 circumstances that occurred earlier. One of the biggest events that

3 dictated the organisation was the end of 1997, the public appearance of

4 the KLA, the beginning of 1998 when the massacres at Qirez and Likoshan

5 took place, and the events of the 5th and 6th of March, the Jashari epic.

6 So people were seeking possible forms in order to join the military

7 forces and defend their country. And at that time it was an authentic

8 military organisation.

9 Q. Can you just explain how it worked?

10 A. If we look at it from a perspective, the KLA army had appeared on

11 the scene for several years now, that it had a guerrilla structure not

12 concentrated in many zones but its epicentre in Drenica. The KLA had

13 started with its activities and tend and significance to create a

14 military structure that would overtake the war for the liberation of

15 Kosova. To this time, it was -- it resembled more of a horizontal

16 structure and had one organ which was at that time called central staff.

17 The number was limited.

18 Q. Now, just two questions arising out of that answer. They may be

19 related.

20 You mentioned it had a guerrilla structure and then it resembled

21 more of a horizontal structure. Are those two things the same or were

22 you meaning to define two different things?

23 A. Approximately. They are similar and can act together.

24 Regardless of being horizontal or vertical, a structure cannot operate

25 without an organ. In this context, I want to say that the KLA had

1 created several guerrilla units scattered in designated zones of Kosova,

2 but mainly in Drenica.

3 Q. Now, can I go back to Fatmir Limaj. How long do you remember

4 that he remained in Likovc?

5 A. Of course I cannot say exactly how long it was, but it was a

6 relatively short time until he was -- it was possible for him to move to

7 somewhere else or to stay there.

8 Q. I want to deal with his moving to somewhere else. Do you know

9 where he went when he left Likovc?

10 A. There was a practice which more or less was a rule. Those

11 volunteers who joined the KLA would be best if they returned to their

12 birthplace or to their native areas. This practice was applied in

13 Fatmir's case as well, who at that time went to this -- to his native

14 place in order to see what his role would be in organisation or in

15 organising the KLA.

16 Q. And which area was that that he was going to? Did you know where

17 he was going?

18 A. Fatmir Limaj was born in Banje, Malisheve municipality, and he

19 went to the Malisheve region.

20 Q. After he left, did you keep in contact with him somehow?

21 A. Of course I did.

22 Q. Now, how was that done? How did you keep in contact with him?

23 A. I know that he returned to Likovc once, or maybe I met him in

24 Malisheve. However, we maintained contacts in order to discuss things

25 and to see what we could do and to discuss his possibilities for being in

1 the KLA.

2 Q. And what did you discover on those occasions when you did meet

3 him to discuss how things were going?

4 A. I cannot call it a discovery, but in discussion with Fatmir, we

5 assessed the situation, and regarding the zones in Malisheve, we thought

6 we should find people, volunteers who will join the KLA and, if possible,

7 to be in accordance with the circumstances in this region.

8 Q. I know it's a rather obvious question, this next one, but had

9 Fatmir Limaj been ordered to go to Malisevo in order to establish units

10 if he could?

11 A. No. He couldn't have been ordered since still his position in

12 the KLA was not defined.

13 Q. Now, did there come a time later when his position became a

14 little more defined, as you put?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And how much later? He's arrived back in March. You saw him in

17 March and he's left. So how long after March was it that you, as it

18 were, could say his position was a little more defined?

19 A. Well, this could not have been done in a short time because those

20 zones, those villages, didn't have any kind of pre-organisation. So it

21 took relatively long for the KLA army to begin with the formation of the

22 operative units in that part as well, which was later called a zone.

23 Q. Can you perhaps give us some idea how long it took for that to

24 happen?

25 A. If we consider the circumstances that occurred at that time in

1 Kosova, it was difficult to be done [as interpreted] that rapidly. So it

2 took us almost the whole summer to begin with the formation of such a

3 structure. It was end of summer when we started our attempts to organise

4 an operational zone.

5 Q. I'm sorry to ask you the detail if you can remember it, but what

6 was the problems that you were facing in that period of time?

7 A. One of the main problems was the Serb offensives and attacks

8 against us and against the population. This was the main problem that

9 was an obstacle in us organising the structure of the KLA.

10 Secondly, the infrastructure. This was another problem for us.

11 The population had at that time fled to Drenica area and to less

12 difficult areas like Malisheve.

13 Another problem was that we lacked soldiers and volunteers to

14 create a zone that we will -- we will later create. These were the main

15 problems that we faced.

16 Q. Now, during this time -- we started your evidence with you

17 indicated that you were on the General Staff or central staff, however

18 defined. What was your own position in these months, March, April, May

19 of 1998?

20 A. Until May 1998 when it was still a central staff of the KLA,

21 there wasn't a definition of tasks, but all people who were in this staff

22 were members of this staff without any specific definition of their

23 duties and tasks. After May 1998 and after the restructuring of the

24 Drenica staff, I became the operational chief of the KLA, a G3.

25 Q. And did that change at any time in 1998? Did you take on another

1 role?

2 A. Yes. Approximately sometime in August I took up another task and

3 that was of the general inspector of the KLA.

4 Q. And could you -- it may be self-evident, but could you just

5 describe what you had to do as the general inspector of the KLA from

6 August onwards.

7 A. In accordance with the appointment, it is obvious what is role of

8 a general inspector is in a certain structure, but under the

9 circumstances at that time was to follow the development and the

10 formation of the operational units at that time who were in their initial

11 phase of formation. So this was the role that at that time, to inspect

12 how these units were being formed and to provide them with any necessary

13 assistance that they required.

14 Q. Now, just before dealing a little with that situation, you

15 mentioned that Fatmir Limaj came to see you in Likovc. Did you go and

16 see him at any time in Klecka or anywhere else?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And again, just approximately. I'm dealing with March through to

19 August period principally. How many -- roughly how many times do you

20 think you may have visited him?

21 A. Maybe you will excuse me for not being able to give you an exact

22 figure. I forgot how many times, but I have been several times and not

23 that rarely.

24 Q. And when you visited him, again I have to ask you this way

25 around, what would be the purpose of your visit to him?

1 A. It was more or less the same aim, to see what possibilities and

2 ways we could use to spread out in other areas of Malisheve. Another

3 reason was that I knew Fatmir from before. There were other reasons such

4 as to find out the ways and the forms of calling on new volunteers to

5 join the ranks of the KLA.

6 Q. I want to ask you the position with regard to weaponry in this

7 period, particularly not in Drenica so many but where Fatmir Limaj was.

8 What sort of weaponry was available that you remember?

9 A. In general, but since you are asking me in particular about that

10 area, the weaponry was composed of light infantry rifles of small

11 calibres. If you want me to give details, then I may do so.

12 Q. Yes. If you'd just give a few examples of what you're speaking

13 about.

14 A. When I say infantry rifles, I have in mind the most usual weapons

15 like 7.62 and 7.9 calibre, and other weapons of more or less the same

16 calibre which were usually hand-held weapons and infantry weapons with

17 some minor exceptions.

18 Q. And did you, upon these visits to see Fatmir Limaj, did you

19 discover whether in fact he'd managed to form a unit or not?

20 A. Since Fatmir was based in Klecka, he had been in a position to

21 have around him a group of KLA fighters which was called Celiku 1. At

22 least this is what I know it to be.

23 Q. Did you know about any other groups that had taken on the name

24 Celiku?

25 A. In that region and at that time there were other units whose name

1 was not Celiku only. There were other units like Pellumbi, Lumi, Hekuri,

2 and other similar units. But there were also other Celiku units to my

3 recollection, like Celiku 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. I apologise for not giving

4 you the exact number of Celiku units.

5 Q. Now, so far as Fatmir Limaj was concerned and only as far as you

6 knew, what was the unit that he was associated with?

7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think that question is very leading

8 on an important topic.

9 MR. MANSFIELD: No, I agree [sic]. It isn't very leading. So

10 I'm not -- I'm trying to avoid using words that are leading. So the

11 question, I'll put it another way.

12 Q. What unit or units had any connection to Fatmir Limaj?

13 A. The units that had connection to Fatmir Limaj was actually unit

14 number 1. I may know this better because I have in mind a specific case

15 for two minor reasons. It might be one of the first KLA groups that was

16 formed in that region and because of the code they use in radio

17 communication.

18 Q. I want to ask you about the stage when a brigade was formed. Are

19 you familiar with that stage?

20 A. Yes, I do, of course. Because in one way or another, I was

21 involved in the formation of the operational units beginning from the

22 operational units of Drenica operational zone, which had up to a time

23 formed -- it might had been mid-summer it had formed four operational

24 brigades or the nucleus of these brigades to pass on at a later phase to

25 the creation of other zones such as the Pashtrik operational zone, which

1 I can't tell you exactly how many brigades it had, but it started with

2 Brigade 121.

3 Q. I just want to ask you about Pashtrik zone. Who was in charge of

4 the zone, Pashtrik zone, do you remember?

5 A. The person in charge of that zone -- we had two -- we had

6 conceived of two phases in regard to the creation of that zone. The

7 first phase was the phase of spreading the idea, and then this phase was

8 not in conformity to what we did later, because initially we thought to

9 have the Pashtrik zone in another area. But because of the changing

10 circumstances, in August 1998 we deemed it appropriate that the Pashtrik

11 operational zone be formed in the form that it got later, beginning from

12 Brigade 121 to 127.

13 MR. MANSFIELD: You were, may I pause a moment, because I

14 understand there are problems with interpretation. Right.

15 I think it may be we both of us have to slow down a little for

16 the interpreters. I'm not sure whether that's the right message.

17 Q. Now, again a rather obvious question for you, but who became in

18 charge of the 121 Brigade?

19 A. To be in charge of a unit you have to be appointed. The

20 commander of Brigade 121, following the formation of the Pashtrik

21 operational zone and the formation of this brigade, was appointed Fatmir

22 Limaj.

23 Q. Now, I just want to move on a slight amount of time. We know

24 after that, much later in the year, he also was appointed to the General

25 Staff. Do you remember that stage?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what do you recall his role was on the General Staff?

3 A. Initially his role was not defined. His job description was not

4 prepared. After he performed several tasks as a member, he became chief

5 of the military police.

6 Q. Now, between August -- do you remember when that was that he was

7 on the General Staff, before I ask the next question?

8 A. I think approximately after the formation of the Drenica

9 operational zone, which was the first operational zone of the KLA. It

10 must have been end of August or the beginning of September when Fatmir

11 Limaj was appointed brigade -- commander of Brigade 121, which at that

12 time was called Ismet Jashari Kumanova Brigade.

13 Q. How many operational zones were eventually created?

14 A. Seven.

15 Q. And can you just name, if you can remember them, the seven zones

16 as you recall it?

17 A. Yes, certainly. Drenica operational zone, which is the first one

18 to be created, which had four brigades. Brigade 111 to 114, then

19 Pashtrik operational zone, the second operational zone created parallel

20 with a Dukadjin zone, and it had Brigade 121 to 127 brigades. And

21 respectively, the Dukadjin operational zone having brigade 131 to 138.

22 Then the Shale operational zone as the fourth operational zone created,

23 which had two brigades, 141 and 142 Brigade. And then the Llap

24 operational zone, which likewise had three brigades beginning from

25 Brigade 151 to 153. Then came the Nerodimlje operational zone, which had

1 Brigade 161 to 162. And the last operational zone was the Karadak

2 operational zone with Brigade 171, 172. But process of formation and

3 structuring of the zones did not finish until the end of the war.

4 Q. I'm not going to ask you for the details of all the various KLA

5 members who were in charge of each of the zones, but do you remember them

6 if somebody needs to ask you who they were?

7 A. Depending on the time.

8 Q. All right. Now, during this period again, this is a period from

9 May, June, July, August, through August and the brigades, was the General

10 Staff located in one place or not?

11 A. The General Staff was based in several places, and usually its

12 members moved to -- from one zone to another.

13 Q. How long would it remain in any one place?

14 A. It depended on the circumstances of the war and the need to be at

15 a certain zone to assist the General Staff to form the zone or the

16 respective units.

17 Q. Was it ever anywhere near Klecka as a location?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And where was that and when was that?

20 A. It was located in Divjak village twice.

21 Q. Do you remember when the two occasions were?

22 A. The first time it was before the outbreak of fighting, that is

23 before the war, in the course of the formation of the guerrilla units.

24 But it doesn't mean that it was the seat of the General Staff. It just

25 utilised a facility, the house of a family in that area as its base.

1 During 1997, it stopped using that use or that facility to use it

2 again in 1998 initially very secretly and now and again.

3 Q. On the second occasion when you used it now and again, how long

4 would it remain there when it went, hours, days, weeks? How can we

5 measure it?

6 A. It depended. I might say that when it needed to hold meetings

7 for several hours, then at the end of summer or in the summer of 1997 it

8 was -- excuse me, 1998, it was based there in Divjak.

9 Q. Now, at that time how many -- that is, when it's based there at

10 the end of the summer, how many people were on the General Staff besides

11 yourself?

12 A. You mean in that particular house or in general in the structure

13 of --

14 Q. In general.

15 A. The structure of the General Staff of the KLA varied, I mean the

16 number of this structure, having new members joining it and the number of

17 the departments established. So we cannot give you a fixed number to

18 define the number of the members of the General Staff at that time,

19 because the number increased, varied.

20 Q. Perhaps I could ask you this, and if it's too difficult, please

21 say so, but I'd like to deal with the beginning of August. If you could

22 -- that is of 1998. Can you recollect how many members there were then

23 and how many departments, as you put it, there were then?

24 A. Until that time, we had established the most necessary

25 departments but had not completed the structure of a usual General Staff

1 in a regular army. We had focused our efforts on the establishment of

2 the most necessary departments which might be functional in the

3 circumstances beginning with the department which was very important at

4 that time for us of taking evidence of all the materials we possessed at

5 the time, the department of public information, the public -- the

6 department of operations, and the department of logistics. These were

7 some of the departments set up at that time as the most crucial in our

8 view for the functioning of the General Staff under those circumstances.

9 But the structure of the staff, as I said, changed depending on the

10 developments and events.

11 Q. I want to ask you, as this case concerns the village of Lapusnik

12 and its surrounding area, before the war had you ever been to Lapusnik?

13 A. I had passed through it.

14 Q. Now, could you be a little more explicit? In other words, just

15 explain what you mean by you had passed through it.

16 A. You know that Lapusnik is a village through which a road passes.

17 It is an intercity road and, as such, thousands of people pass through

18 Lapusnik in a day. There is an asphalt road that divides it. As such,

19 many people have passed through this village, the village of Lapusnik,

20 and I was one of them.

21 Q. Had you visited the village itself? In other words, got out of a

22 vehicle, gone into a building or a house or whatever in the village?

23 A. Usually no.

24 Q. Now, during these months we're dealing with, again April, May,

25 June, July, August of 1998, did you go to the village as opposed to

1 passing by on the main road? Did you go to the village in that period of

2 time?

3 A. No. Usually I have passed by Lapusnik before the war, because it

4 was a very important road, the road that ran through Lapusnik. During

5 the war, it was also very important -- there was another road which was

6 very important, too, and which also ran through Lapusnik. It was a road

7 used by us as well as by the population. We passed from Drenica zone to

8 the villages of Malisheve.

9 Q. Now, if I showed you a map would you be able to point out the two

10 roads you've been talking about?

11 A. I will try.

12 MR. MANSFIELD: I'm seeing if we've got a spare copy of one, but

13 I don't think we have.

14 Could we have, please, map 6 of P1. If there is a clean copy

15 that would help, but if there isn't we'll just use the one that's in the

16 Prosecution bundle. P1, 6.

17 It doesn't matter. If the original Prosecution Exhibit is there,

18 that will do. It's Exhibit 1. It's this folder. P1, map 6. There's

19 one -- Mr. Whiting is holding one in his hand. That's it. P1, map 6.

20 Yes, that's it. Thanks.

21 Q. And if it could be put on the monitor to your left-hand side so

22 that you can then look at it. And if you have a pen or something you can

23 point with, and then if you look at the map.

24 You described two roads, and are the two roads on the map and, if

25 so, can you point to the two roads and describe them as you point,

1 please?

2 A. In the beginning, I would like to point out that I didn't say two

3 main roads, but I just said two roads. The Peja-Pristina main road can

4 be seen clearly here, and I can describe it. It begins at Fushe Kosove

5 and then goes by Slatine, Korretice, Komorane, Lapusnik, and continues

6 towards Orlat and in the direction of Peja. This is a main road in

7 Kosova and links to big centres, Peja and Pristina.

8 The other road that I mentioned and which came into use during

9 the war, I cannot point it -- exactly where it is, but it's in this area

10 and it links the villages of Drenica which were in the war zone at that

11 time to the villages in Malisheve. It's 2 or 300 metres from Lapusnik

12 gorge in the direction of Peja.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to ask you just one or two more questions

14 about Lapusnik.

15 Whilst you were on the General Staff, did you hear of any prison

16 camp in Lapusnik?

17 A. I heard about this when the indictment against Limaj, Bala, and

18 Musliu was issued.

19 Q. Had you heard about it in particular before that and obviously in

20 1998 itself?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Yes. Thank you. Would you wait there, please.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: No questions.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Mr. Topolski.

1 MR. TOPOLSKI: Nor I, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Mr. Whiting.

3 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, before I begin my cross-examination, I

4 have -- there's a small procedural matter which I'd like to raise with

5 the Court, and to do so I'd ask if the witness could be excused.

6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be short, will it, Mr. Whiting?

7 MR. WHITING: It will, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Selimi, would you be good enough to go with

9 the court officer for a few moments. There's a procedural matter to be

10 discussed.

11 [The witness stands down]

12 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, just before Mr. Whiting begins, I

13 waited for the witness to depart in case it is a different issue, but if

14 it's the issue upon which we've had a little notice, it doesn't apply to

15 this witness as I understand it, and therefore --

16 MR. WHITING: It's not that issue.

17 MR. MANSFIELD: It isn't that issue.

18 JUDGE PARKER: I'm so glad.

19 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, there is -- I would like to

20 cross-examine this witness in part on the basis of an interview that the

21 witness gave as part of a documentary which was broadcast on television.

22 It is -- in our view this documentary has been disclosed insofar as it is

23 included in the Electronic Disclosure Suite and therefore a search by the

24 -- a search of the witnesses name in the Electronic Disclosure Suite

25 would reveal this documentary. I also think that as it is a prior

1 statement of the witness, an interview that the witness himself gave,

2 there -- it is something he should be familiar with, should be aware of

3 and should be able to deal with.

4 However, because in issue arose in what I would suggest is a

5 different form during the testimony of Mr. Limaj, I wanted to raise it

6 just before the cross-examination started in case there was any

7 difficulty about -- about disclosure or notice and, if so, how that would

8 -- I'd like to give it -- I can make the Defence aware of it now. I

9 think, in my view, it's a horse of a different colour from the issue --

10 well, I see the Judge shaking his head. Maybe that's the argument or the

11 expression I've used, but I think it's something -- this is a different

12 matter. This is, as I said, it's been disclosed. It is -- it is an

13 interview of the witness himself. He should be familiar with it. I

14 would expect the Defence could be familiar with it.

15 In any event, I wanted to raise it to have it aired before the

16 cross-examination started so that when it came to that we wouldn't have

17 an interruption of that basis.

18 JUDGE PARKER: So you give notice that you propose to

19 cross-examine in part with respect to an interview given by this witness

20 to --

21 MR. WHITING: It's to --

22 JUDGE PARKER: It's to the media; correct?

23 MR. WHITING: Yes.

24 JUDGE PARKER: And that it is in the general disclosure,

25 electronic form, made by the OTP but it has not been specifically

1 disclosed as a separate identified document, if I can call it that, to

2 this Defence in this case.

3 MR. WHITING: That's correct. I think that's fair summary of the

4 position.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Does any issue arise, Mr. Mansfield?

6 MR. MANSFIELD: Well, I'm not sure, if I may put it that way at

7 the moment, because firstly it's not been made clear to what purpose it

8 is being used. In other words, is it being suggested it's a prior

9 inconsistent statement, and at the moment --

10 JUDGE PARKER: This is cross-examination of a Defence witness.

11 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. So it's not entirely clear to what purpose

12 it goes. Just because it's Defence witness doesn't mean that the

13 Prosecution can cross-examine on absolutely anything.

14 But more importantly, as far as disclosure's concerned, the

15 problem here is, and I'm make it clear we don't have a transcript of

16 this. I'm not suggesting it's not on the EDS system, it's just that that

17 manner of disclosure does result in a mass of material being certainly

18 able to be accessed with a certain amount of diligence, and it does mean

19 in some cases quite a considerable amount of analysis to reach whatever

20 it is that's going to be relied on.

21 Certainly it's not a document in the normal course of events for

22 which we have signed as we do on many occasions for particular

23 interviews. So I don't know what's in this one. And if, in fact, there

24 had been an intention to use this and we have notified obviously

25 Prosecution well in advance of these witnesses, then we, we say, could

1 have been highlighted by the Prosecution before now, because I'm not

2 quite sure how we're supposed to deal with it when Mr. Whiting's had

3 plenty of opportunity to let us know that that's what he intends to do

4 with this document so we can address it in a more relevant way.

5 At the moment I don't know what's on it and therefore I don't

6 know for what purpose it's going to be used in cross-examination.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Since I have -- I have not been directly involved

9 in the questioning of this witness, my remarks are necessarily a bit

10 briefer than they would have been if I was. I have as an initial concern

11 the question of whether or not to the extent this document has relevance

12 whether it is from what I'm gathering potential impeachment on a

13 collateral matter or not. I have no way of knowing of that initially.

14 The second problem that I think this creates, which is a problem

15 that has been raised in prior filing, is that the disclosure system as is

16 set up on the EDS is a relatively vast system and at times it works and

17 at other times it does not. At times we're able to in fact focus and

18 make a determination that we have all the information that concerns any

19 given witness. Sometimes we are not. Unfortunately, I can't speak to

20 that issue directly and was just trying to double-check that as a matter

21 of fact to make a determination whether or not our search of the EDS,

22 which is relatively consistent search, is one which we've been able to

23 identify this document and specifically identify this document as it

24 relates to this particular witness.

25 So I am in the same position that Mr. Mansfield is in with regard

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1 to the issue. I'm not particularly sure for what purposes the

2 Prosecution is intending on using this information, and perhaps an offer

3 of proof and a focused statement to the Chamber with regard to what the

4 specific purpose is of the use of this document might be of assistance.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski.

6 MR. TOPOLSKI: I have nothing to add. Thank you.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Mr. Whiting.

8 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, of course the material in the EDS

9 itself is vast, just like the material in the Prosecution's evidence

10 system is vast. This material -- I would expect searches by names of

11 witnesses to be routinely done. It would be disclosed. That's a much

12 narrower category that would be discovered.

13 We have not had this document in our possession for a long time.

14 We did our own search, and this just came up at the end of last week and

15 came to our possession.

16 As a practical matter, I'm not sure -- I'm not sure I understand

17 the -- a disclosure regime where the Prosecution would be required -- I

18 mean -- let me back up for a moment.

19 We -- we -- as the Court is well aware, we received a long list

20 of witness names a few weeks ago. We have been scrambling and doing our

21 best to learn as much as we can about these witnesses. Information comes

22 in at the last minute. The -- we learn of witnesses that are going to

23 testify a week or so ahead of time. So necessarily, our own research

24 uncovers documents and information days before the witness testifies.

25 I'm not sure I understand a disclosure regime where the

1 Prosecution would be required to disclose its cross-examination before

2 the witness testifies by showing all of -- everything that it's going to

3 use including prior statements that are available both to the Defence by

4 just inquiry of the witness and also through the EDS. Certainly that's

5 not something that happened during the Prosecution case. We were not

6 provided with the Defence -- the documents that the Defence was going to

7 use in cross-examination even though we requested it. The Defence had in

8 its possession interviews of our witnesses. We asked for them. We were

9 not given them. And therefore, I don't understand why the rules would be

10 different for us.

11 I would suggest that cross-examination, we should have the

12 opportunity to test the witness, and if we are required beforehand, days

13 beforehand to provide a road map of our cross-examination, well, that

14 necessarily would give the opportunity to the witness to think of answers

15 to the questions and prepare beforehand, and that's necessarily in the

16 interests of discovering the truth. And so I don't think that the

17 Prosecution has done anything improper here. I think that --

18 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think that's being suggested.

19 MR. WHITING: Well, I think, then, the Prosecution should be

20 allowed to use the document.

21 I should also say -- I should also say that it's not --

22 JUDGE PARKER: I understand Mr. Mansfield and Mr. Guy-Smith to be

23 saying it would be more practical. They would know whether they had any

24 particular objection, and they would be prepared to follow your

25 cross-examination if they knew that you were going to be dealing with a

1 particular document rather than it being merely a document among perhaps

2 very many in the electronic suite. I didn't understand it to get higher

3 than that, on what was put by Mr. Mansfield and Mr. Guy-Smith.

4 MR. WHITING: I'm happy to share the document now, and it will

5 not necessarily arise in the cross-examination. It depends -- it depends

6 on answers that are given by the witness to questions about activities

7 that occurred before the war. And depending on his answers, it may or

8 may not become necessary to put this document to him. But I'm happy to

9 share the specific document with the Defence now so they're aware of it,

10 and I think it will be clear to them where and how it might arise.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Could I indicate from the Chamber's point of view

12 that with cross-examination, whether it is by Defence of a Prosecution

13 witness or vice versa, it has not been the practice, as it is not usually

14 the practice in adversarial systems of which I am aware, for those

15 cross-examining, as it were, to give notice of what they propose to do to

16 the other side. There may be particular reasons where that ought to be

17 done in a particular case, but it is not the normal practice, as long as

18 what is being used is a document that has been the subject of disclosure

19 as is required under the ordinary Rules so that material is not being

20 introduced which is totally foreign to the normal scope of preparation of

21 each party.

22 The practical side, though, is that if the opposing side and if

23 the Chamber are to follow effectively any extensive document based -- any

24 extensive cross-examination based on a particular document such as a past

25 statement or interview, we have seen in this trial, as in others, that it

1 is much more useful to everybody if copies of that are available so that

2 it can be followed as the cross-examination occurs. So that if any party

3 is proposing to cross-examine on such a document or transcript, it would

4 be, I would suggest, not only a courtesy but a step that would greatly

5 facilitate the progress of the trial if there were copies available to be

6 distributed either at the commencement of the cross-examination or at the

7 commencement of cross-examination on that document.

8 Now, I said those few words just to remind people of the general

9 position and practice we have been following.

10 Mr. Whiting, for reasons of caution but beyond that reasons which

11 are not altogether clear to me even now, has specifically raised his

12 possible use of this particular document, and that having been done, I

13 can quite well understand Mr. Mansfield, Mr. Guy-Smith, and by his

14 adoption of it Mr. Topolski keeping their options open over what it is

15 that might be coming, and I think that's where we've got to at the

16 moment.

17 There's certainly nothing that's been advanced which would

18 suggest to the Chamber that you might not cross-examine on this document

19 if you thought it appropriate. When you do so, your particular line of

20 cross-examination might lead to some further objection from your

21 opponents or difficulty from the Chamber. That's just indicated out of

22 caution, and we do suggest that if the questioning is going to be at all

23 extensive to have a copy of the transcript of it available would be a

24 practical step.

25 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, thank you for that guidance. I do

1 have one inquiry which will help the Prosecution in the future with

2 future witnesses, and that is: The Court stated that there's no problem

3 with using a document, and I'm looking at page 23, "as long as what is

4 being used is a document that has been the subject of disclosure as is

5 required under the ordinary Rules."

6 Now, as I understand that, and this is what's going to be helpful

7 for us with respect to -- as the case continues, if I understand that, if

8 a document was -- should have been disclosed under the Rules, whether it

9 be 66(B) or 68, and it wasn't, then there may be a problem in using that

10 document in cross-examination. However, if a document does not fall

11 under those disclosure requirements, it is something completely separate,

12 then we would not by virtue of using that document in cross-examination

13 or intending to use it in cross-examination be required to disclose it

14 until such time as we used in cross-examination. That's how I understand

15 what the Court has said, but if I'm wrong --

16 JUDGE PARKER: There are ifs and buts about that. But if because

17 of evidence in chief your attention has been directed in some new

18 direction and in the course of that you come across a new document that

19 is not a document that ought to have been specifically disclosed under

20 any of the specific Rules but is a document that was in the general

21 electronic material that is available to the other side, you wouldn't

22 have any fundamental disclosure problem. You may have either from one of

23 your opposing parties or all of them, or from the Bench, reason for delay

24 if this took everybody by surprise before there was some re-examination

25 on it. But -- understand that position?

1 MR. WHITING: I do. Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Something that is totally unavailable to anybody

3 before the moment you produce it, I would expect to hear a lot more from

4 Mr. Mansfield and his colleagues.

5 Now, have I gone too far away from where you'd like me to be, Mr.

6 Mansfield?

7 MR. MANSFIELD: For the moment you're close enough. I several

8 take up the offer of seeing what the transcript is.

9 May I make two points only. One is we did a search of the EDS

10 system -- I didn't do it myself, someone else did -- probably not long

11 before the Prosecution did theirs, and certainly it takes many hours but

12 those responsible for doing it did not turn this up. So the question may

13 become in future to ensure that we know what it is that we're given

14 notice so that we can check that it is on the system, because it may not

15 have been disclosed at the point in which -- at the time in which we

16 looked at the system. That's one practical problem.

17 Can I just correct one thing that Mr. Whiting has said vis-a-vis

18 the Defence reciprocation. He said we cross-examined a number of

19 witnesses of whom there were interviews conducted by ourselves. We

20 indicated that were we going to use those interviews in relation to

21 Prosecution witnesses we would disclose the interview, and in fact on one

22 occasion we did precisely that. We did give the Prosecution the

23 interview. On the other occasions we didn't use them, and I think you

24 may recall -- I think there's hardly any occasion I cross-examined on an

25 interview with our own representatives. So we have tried to adopt that

1 approach.

2 I only make those two points. Thank you.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, gentlemen.

4 Now, Mr. Whiting, we've reached the point where you would have at

5 most a quarter of an hour. Is that the most practical step forward or is

6 an early break now more practical?

7 MR. WHITING: Either way. I'm happy to go either way. We can

8 take the break now and I can disclose this document and week proceed. Or

9 I can proceed now. I won't reach the document in the first 15 minutes.

10 That's for certain.

11 JUDGE PARKER: We will have the witness brought back in, thank

12 you.

13 MR. WHITING: While the witness is being brought back in, what

14 Mr. Mansfield said at the end there is absolutely correct. That position

15 was made clear to us.

16 [The witness takes the stand]

17 JUDGE PARKER: That took a little longer than a few moments, Mr.

18 Selimi. I'm sorry for that. Now Mr. Whiting has some questions for you.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Whiting:

20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Selimi. My name is Alex Whiting. I'm one

21 of the Prosecutors in this case. Can you understand me clearly?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Sir, I think I understood your testimony to say that you joined

24 the KLA in 1994. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. In 1996 you had to go to Prekaz?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recall when that was in 1996?

4 A. In October.

5 Q. Is it fair to say that after 1996 when you went to Prekaz, after

6 October 1996, that one of your tasks was to maintain contact with units

7 in other regions of Kosovo? And when I say "units," I'm talking about

8 KLA units.

9 A. Yes. More or less, yes. It depends on what units I was familiar

10 with at that time.

11 Q. Well, for example, units -- that were units in the Dukadjin zone

12 that you were familiar with; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In fact, you -- well, let me back up for a moment. In -- when

15 you retreated to the -- or "retreat" is not the right word, but when you

16 went to the -- to Prekaz in October of 1996, who else was there? Who did

17 you associate with there in Prekaz?

18 A. I met many comrades among whom Commander Adem Jashari and his

19 co-fighters. If this is in your interest, I can cite some of the names.

20 Q. Well, for example, you also met with Sylejman Selimi?

21 A. I didn't need to meet him there because he's a very close member

22 of my family.

23 Q. Okay. That was a badly phrased question. I mean is you saw him

24 there. He was there also in Prekaz at that time?

25 A. Not at that time. He came there later.

1 Q. Do you recall when he came?

2 A. He used to come there often at night, but he too had to pass

3 through a difficult situation as I did in October 1986. That was in

4 January 1997 when Serbia launched a campaign of arrests, a time when he

5 joined the KLA.

6 Q. So if I understand your testimony, he -- he joined the KLA and

7 came to -- and was in Prekaz after January of 1997?

8 A. Maybe I was unable to explain it right. He came to Prekaz. He

9 used to come to Prekaz often because he didn't want to remain a civilian

10 because he was being prosecuted until 1997. He had, in fact, joined the

11 ranks of Adem Jashari's group since the 1990s, and he had joined the KLA

12 from its formation.

13 Q. Could you just tell us who some of the other people were, some of

14 the other co-fighters in Adem Jashari's group, by sides yourself,

15 Sylejman Selimi and Adem Jashari who are the other names?

16 A. Hamze Jashari the brother of Adem Jashari. Sait Jashari. Muse

17 Jashari, a cousin of his. A cousin of Adem Jashari. Fadil Kodra, a

18 co-villager of Adem Jashari. Besim Rama, a co-villager of his. As well

19 Nuredin Lushtaku, also a co-villager of Adem. And all of them were --

20 had joined the group of Adem Jashari. There were many others, but since

21 you asked me to give you some names, they are some of the names.

22 Q. Would you just give that last name again, Lushtaku? What was the

23 first name, something Lushtaku.

24 A. Nuredin Lushtaku.

25 Q. Now, during -- during that time period and even earlier, were the

1 KLA fighters who were based in Prekaz supplied with weapons by fighters

2 in the Dukadjin zone? During 1995 and 1996.

3 A. It may be so in some specific case, but not in general.

4 Q. Did you have interactions at that time with Lahi Brahimi, Luan

5 Haradinaj, Daut Haradinaj?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did you get weapons from them during 1996?

8 A. No, I didn't get arms from them, but together with them we got

9 arms in Albania.

10 Q. Didn't -- Lahi Brahimi lived in Jablanica; correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And he had -- he kept weapons at his house. That was one place

13 where weapons were kept; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in fact, during 1995 and 1996, there wasn't much fighting in

16 Dukadjin and so they could provide weapons to the fighters who were in

17 the Drenica zone; correct?

18 A. They didn't have so many weapons as to be able to give to others

19 because there were other people there waiting to get weapons themselves.

20 Q. So your testimony is that you got the weapons from Albania with

21 these people. You went with these people to Albania to get weapons?

22 A. Several times.

23 Q. During 1996?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What was that?

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1 A. During 1997.

2 Q. During 1997 you also went for training in Albania; correct?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You didn't go for two weeks of training in Golem in Albania?

5 A. No. I was trained elsewhere.

6 Q. Where were you trained?

7 A. In the Serbian police stations when they were maltreating me.

8 Q. When was that?

9 A. Several times. Since you referred to 1997, in 1997 too.

10 Q. Now, you said that you went several times to Albania to get

11 weapons during 1997. Can you be more specific? How many times?

12 A. I regret I cannot give you accurate dates. Maybe four, five, or

13 six times, but I don't believe ten times.

14 Q. What kind of weapons did you bring back?

15 A. Mainly infantry, light weapons.

16 Q. Mortar shells?

17 A. I'm not sure what it is that you refer to as mortar shells.

18 Q. You don't know what mortar shells are?

19 A. I know it, of course, but there are two kinds of weapons which

20 are described as mortars. What do you mean?

21 Q. You can educate me on that. What two types are you referring to?

22 A. In this case, I believe you mean the rocket -- hand-held rocket

23 launchers. This is what you mean, I suppose. But there are also mine

24 launchers which are referred to as mortars by us.

25 Q. Did you -- in 1997, which of these kinds did you bring back?

1 A. The first, the former. The hand-held rocket launchers.

2 Q. Do you recall going on one occasion to Albania with Daut

3 Haradinaj, Kerim Kelmendi, Gzim Mehmeti [phoen], Sylejman Selimi, and you

4 met up with Adrian Krasniqi and Ilir Konushevci?

5 A. If you allow me to direct you your spelling, probably.

6 Q. You certainly can correct me on pronunciation, but then if you

7 could answer the question.

8 A. Adem Krasniqi was not among them. It was Adrian Krasniqi. Yes,

9 I went. This might have been in October 1997, if I'm not mistaken.

10 Q. And with this group you didn't engage in training for two weeks

11 while in Albania?

12 A. Not me.

13 Q. Did others in your group engage in training?

14 A. They might have engaged in physical training in a special

15 location, yes. This may have been so, because during that time I didn't

16 stay with them.

17 Q. Where were you staying?

18 A. I personally stayed in Tirana, whereas they went to Golem.

19 Q. And you know that in fact they did engage in physical training in

20 Golem for two weeks. You know that; right?

21 A. I said they might have been engaged in physical exercises.

22 Q. My question is what you know. Do you know or not, or are you

23 just speculating?

24 A. I am not speculating, but I don't know.

25 Q. Did you return to Kosovo with this group?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you return to Kosovo on your own?

3 A. No, I didn't return on my own. I returned after two or three

4 days. I returned on the 16th of October [as interpreted].

5 Q. And who was with you when you returned?

6 A. I'm not sure. Haki Hajdari might have been the person who was

7 with me. He was from Drenica. But for the moment it escaped me who was

8 the person.

9 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, perhaps this is a convenient time.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will have now the first break and

11 resume at five minutes after four o'clock.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.

15 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Selimi, did you engage in fighting in around November 1997 in

17 Acereva? And I'm sure I mispronounced that incorrectly [sic] as well but

18 I think you know what I mean. Did you understand the question? Did you

19 engage in fighting there?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the witness.

21 MR. WHITING:

22 Q. I'm sorry, sir. Just wait a moment. Your microphone has to be

23 turned on. Now, if you could answer the question.

24 A. In the beginning I would like to make a correction because I see

25 something different regarding a date in the transcript. It's in the

1 first page of the transcript. It's not how I said it.

2 Q. What's the correction?

3 A. Here it says that I returned from Albania on the 16th of October.

4 What I said is that I returned from Albania after the 16th of October.

5 Maybe this is not of great relevance, but just for me to correct it.

6 Now I will proceed with my answer.

7 Q. Do you recall -- do you want me to repeat the question?

8 A. No. I was involved in most of the events dealing with KLA in

9 Drenica in 1997.

10 Q. Did that include a battle at Acereva?

11 A. I wouldn't call it a battle, but it did include Acereva, yes.

12 Q. Well, wasn't there fighting that lasted for some hours with --

13 and it was between the -- between KLA soldiers and the Serbs?

14 A. Yes. There were fightings, but the fighting was going on at

15 Ludoviq village, which is not far from Acereva.

16 Q. And both of those villages are close to Likovc; correct?

17 A. Not very close if we take into consideration the distance between

18 Ludoviq and Acereva. Likovc is on their south, maybe ten kilometres from

19 there.

20 Q. Okay. And the Serb forces came. They had a helicopter, armoured

21 vehicles, a tank. You're nodding your head yes, but you have to answer

22 audibly or it won't be picked up on the transcript. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. And how long did that fighting last, for a number of hours?

25 A. The fighting began at 9.15 and continued for several hours until

1 noon.

2 Q. What was the result of the fighting?

3 A. We gained victory. The Serb forces had withdrawn, and they

4 suffered casualties both in military technique and in manpower. We

5 didn't have any injured amongst us.

6 During their withdrawal, the Serb forces retaliated on the

7 population, and in this event they shot at a teacher.

8 Q. That was Halit Geci; is that right?

9 A. Yes. It was Halit Geci.

10 Q. This battle was in November, late November 1997?

11 A. On the 26th of November, 1997.

12 Q. You went to the funeral for Halit Geci?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And in fact, that was an important event because two of you --

15 one or two of you did not -- I think two of you did not wear masks,

16 correct, or took off your masks?

17 A. Yes, it was important.

18 Q. Now, I believe you testified in response to my first question

19 about this subject that you were involved in all the fightings in Drenica

20 that occurred at this time period. Did I recall your testimony

21 correctly?

22 A. Yes. I recall my answer, and I will repeat it. Almost in all

23 the fightings.

24 Q. Focusing on 1996 and 1997, can you tell the Court what kind of

25 fighting you engaged in? Describe generally. What are you talking

1 about, all the fighting?

2 A. I will try to be helpful. During 1996, the Kosovo Liberation

3 Army undertook several actions or attacks on Serb police stations, and I

4 participated in one of these actions. In addition, in 1997 it was more

5 or less the same but of more or less greater intensity. I participated

6 in other actions as well, actions against the Serb police stationed in

7 their police stations.

8 Q. The action that you referred to in 1996 against the Serb police

9 station, where was that?

10 A. At the Serb police station in Kliqine.

11 Q. May municipality is that in?

12 A. It is nearby the main road that links Klina and Peja. I think it

13 is in Peja municipality. Nonetheless, it can be in Klina municipality as

14 well, but it's on the border between Klina and Peja municipalities.

15 Q. You said that you attacked a police station. Can you just

16 describe for us how you attacked the police station?

17 A. With a shell called tromblon.

18 Q. Do you know what the result of the attack was?

19 A. No, I wouldn't know exactly what the result was.

20 Q. Well, do you know if anybody was injured?

21 A. No, I don't know exactly.

22 Q. Aside from that action, did you participate in any other actions,

23 military actions, during 1996?

24 A. I think no, not actions of this nature.

25 Q. Actions of any other nature?

1 A. The year of 1996 was very important as for the organisation and

2 development of the KLA. I was focused in the development of this

3 structure, and my entire activity at that time is linked with this.

4 In 1996 was also important for me personally because at that time the

5 indictment of the Serbian police against me was made public, and I could

6 now pass into another form of activity which was at that time called

7 activity in flee, exile.

8 Q. During 1997, you said that you engaged in other actions against

9 the Serb police. What other kinds of actions did you engage in during

10 that year, 1997?

11 A. Yes. There was an action, a coordinated one, between the KLA

12 units which operated at that time, and this was exclusively targeting

13 police stations in the area of Kosova. I call it a synchronised action

14 because the actions were carried out in different locations in Kosova. I

15 participated in such an action against the Serb police stations.

16 Q. What did you do?

17 A. I launched a hand-held rocket launcher shell to the -- against

18 the police station in Rakovc.

19 Q. What other police stations were targeted?

20 A. I will try to remember some of the police stations. In Decan,

21 Irzniq, Celopek, Klina, Kijeve, Drenas, and so on. I have the impression

22 that at that time 12 police station were is attacked in the same time.

23 Q. Do you remember when in 1997 that happened?

24 A. On 11th of November at 11.00 p.m.

25 Q. During 1997 did you engage in any other actions on behalf of the

1 KLA?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What were they?

4 A. I was ambushed twice at Serb police checkpoints.

5 Q. What do you mean you were ambushed?

6 A. At that time, I moved a lot, moved to designated places in

7 Drenica and Dukadjin, and while moving from one place to another there

8 were a lot of Serb police checkpoints, and I fell into their ambush.

9 But, however, I did move continuously.

10 Q. Did that -- when you say you fell into their ambush, did that

11 result in fighting or were you just detained?

12 A. We exchanged fire.

13 Q. That occurred on two occasions in 1997?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you remember when and where?

16 A. The first time was in the city of Drenas, former Gllogovc, and

17 secondly in Klina.

18 Q. Did you -- in 1997, aside from the attack on the police station

19 in Rakovc and these two ambushes you have described, did you participate

20 in any other actions on behalf of the KLA?

21 A. I have the impression that even these that I mentioned were not a

22 few, but no, I didn't.

23 Q. And when you say -- when I say "actions," you understand I mean

24 any kind of violent attack, any kind of military attack on -- of any

25 kind?

1 A. Yes, I know what you mean, but my answer is no, I didn't.

2 Q. Did you ever -- you yourself -- I'll ask the question about you

3 yourself first. Did you yourself ever target Serb civilians during 1996

4 and 1997?

5 A. No. This was not our goal.

6 Q. Are you certain about that, Mr. Selimi?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did that ever change, for example in 1998 or 1999?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did the KLA, to your knowledge, ever arrest or detain Serb

11 civilians?

12 A. I'm not sure what you call arrest or detention, because the KLA

13 did not have prisons for it to have detentions.

14 Q. Did the KLA ever, during the war, 1998, 1999, did the KLA ever

15 have a facility that it used to detain people? And when I say

16 "facility," I mean a house, a building, anything.

17 A. We had facilities which were not enough for our own soldiers.

18 All the houses of people in the areas of responsibility were shared with

19 the soldiers. Nonetheless, they were not enough for the soldiers, for

20 them to shelter.

21 Q. Mr. Selimi, I don't think you answered my question. My question

22 was: Did the KLA ever, during the war -- I'll make it more broad. 1997,

23 1998, 1999, did the KLA ever, to your knowledge, have a building --

24 house, building that it used to detain people?

25 A. I don't know, and it didn't have. I'm saying I don't know

1 because nobody ever informed me about that, and I'm saying it didn't have

2 because personally I didn't see any.

3 Q. So you never heard about people being detained during those years

4 by the KLA. Never heard about a single person being detained by the KLA

5 during 1997, 1998, 1999.

6 A. What I said was that I didn't see any. As for hearing, if you

7 refer to propaganda, that's another issue. But I didn't have knowledge

8 for the existence of such a facility.

9 Q. When you mention "propaganda," what are you talking about?

10 A. There were two sorts of propaganda regarding the KLA warfare.

11 One launched bit Serb forces in order to accuse the KLA; and on the other

12 side the KLA propaganda, the propaganda that it applied for certain

13 reasons and which served for mobilising people. So both parties had

14 their own propaganda.

15 Q. And so your testimony is putting aside propaganda, and I assume

16 you're talking in this respect about Serb propaganda, you never heard

17 about anybody being detained by the KLA during 1997, 1998, 1999? Is that

18 a fair summary of your testimony?

19 A. There might have been detentions, but not prisons. I don't know

20 of any specific or particular case that has stuck in my memory.

21 Q. And I take it when you say there might have been detentions,

22 you're talking there about brief detentions?

23 A. Of course, yes.

24 Q. Because a detention that -- of more than a day or two would

25 require something -- some kind of a prison; correct?

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1 A. I did not refer to one day or two days. What I mean by small

2 amount of time, that is what you need to verify somebody's identity. If

3 there is a need to speculate, then we can speculate, but as I said, I

4 don't remember any particular case.

5 Q. I don't want you to speculate, Mr. Selimi, but as I understood --

6 just so I'm clear on your testimony, you don't remember yourself any

7 instances even of a brief detention?

8 A. I might recall, but I do not recall names because this was no --

9 it was not my preoccupation.

10 Q. Can you tell us what you do recall?

11 A. Since there were checkpoints on certain locations and roads,

12 these checkpoints were created to stop people that were passing by and

13 not helicopters, and people were stopped at these checkpoints until we

14 verified their identities and until we were sure, and then they were

15 released to go to their destinations.

16 Q. How long would they be stopped at the checkpoint?

17 A. From one minute to several hours.

18 Q. But your testimony is no more than several hours?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Mr. Selimi, I put the question about you originally, but I'm

21 going to put it more broadly. Are you aware of the KLA, during 1996,

22 1997, 1998 ever targeting Serb civilians in a military action or a

23 violent action, ever targeting Serb civilians? You said you never did

24 it. Are you aware of the KLA ever doing it?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Mr. Selimi, you're aware that at least by 1997 the KLA had a

2 policy expressed through communiques of targeting people suspected of

3 collaborating with the Serbs. Are you aware of that?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. You don't remember at any time a policy of the KLA of targeting

6 people suspected of collaborating?

7 A. I want to be clear. Do you mean if there was such a policy, or

8 are you saying that you heard it in the communiques? I want to know what

9 you're referring to, to the communiques or to the policy again the

10 collaborators? I will try to be helpful as much as I can.

11 Q. Mr. Selimi, it's you testifying, not me. So the question is what

12 you know about a policy of the KLA that -- targeting collaborators. Are

13 you aware of that policy?

14 A. If we look at the aim and the struggle waged by the KLA, its

15 objective was to attack the main institutions, the main mechanisms --

16 three main mechanisms of the state power, direct mechanisms that used

17 systematic violence against the Albanian people of Kosovo, namely the

18 police, the army, and the secret service or intelligence service.

19 Q. You didn't answer my question, Mr. Selimi. The question was:

20 Were you aware of a policy by the KLA to target people suspected of

21 collaborating, Albanians suspected of collaborating with the Serbs?

22 A. I apologise for not answering you completely, but I'll try to

23 answer your question again.

24 The target of the struggle of the KLA was, I want to specify, the

25 system of -- intelligence system of Serbia which exerted violence on the

1 Albanians. Within this system there may be and certainly there were

2 Albanians involved in it. Not as suspects, but since they were involved

3 they were part of the system. They were and should be the target of the

4 attacks by the KLA.

5 Q. Now, would you agree with this definition of a collaborator? You

6 have said persons involved with the system. Let me put a definition to

7 you and see if you agree with it. "A collaborator is a person who causes

8 the country damage, a person harmful to the KLA when such a person is

9 giving information on the movements of the KLA to the Belgrade regime."

10 Is that a definition of collaborator that you would agree with?

11 A. I don't think that would be all, but generally since we have to

12 agree on a definition, yes. All the collaborators of the Serb secret

13 service were not those who provided information on the positions of the

14 KLA but those people and those individuals involved in the structures of

15 the intelligence service called the Serbian secret service or the UDB.

16 There may be people who might have been forced to provide information to

17 Serbia about the positions of the KLA, something that has happened not

18 rarely, but these people are not to blame.

19 Q. So your testimony is that you would not include as a collaborator

20 some people who gave information or who were too close to the Serb

21 authorities? You would not include those people in your definition of

22 collaborator?

23 A. They cannot be called collaborators.

24 Q. Why not?

25 A. Because most of them have supplied information under pressure,

1 under use of force to the Serbian secret service. Anyone who'd fall in

2 the hands of the Serbs would certainly give information on the KLA and

3 its positions.

4 Q. So in your view it would be improper to target somebody in that

5 category; correct?

6 A. Yes, I agree.

7 Q. Collaborators, in your view, should be limited only to people who

8 are actually working for the police?

9 A. The collaborators are those people who were part of the

10 repressive Serb regime. In this case, part of the secret -- state secret

11 service.

12 Q. In what way part of the state secret service? What do you mean

13 by that?

14 A. One of the most dangerous mechanisms of Serbia used against the

15 Albanians was the UDB, the state secret service supported by the police.

16 Since this service and this structure, this repressive structure exerted

17 violence against the Albanians, everyone who was involved in this

18 structure was a tool of Serb repression against the Albanians, and we

19 considered them equal to the Serb police.

20 Q. And what do you mean "involved in the structure"? Do you mean

21 actually employed by the secret police or by the police or army, or do

22 you mean something more?

23 A. I think that would be enough. Employed and charged with

24 performing of certain duties. Maybe this is -- this is a prejudiced

25 definition, but this is what I think.

1 Q. Now, you know, Mr. Selimi, that in fact that wasn't the

2 definition used of collaborators by the KLA during 1998; right? You know

3 that the definition was much broader than that, don't you?

4 A. You would help me greatly if you recall me what you have in mind.

5 Q. I'm asking you. You're not aware, sir, of people being accused

6 during -- Albanians being accused during 1998 of collaborating simply

7 because they were friendly with Serb authorities or Serbs in their

8 village? You're not aware of that?

9 A. I'm not aware of that, and I wouldn't agree to that definition.

10 Q. I understand you wouldn't agree to that definition because it

11 would be improper, but my question is: Aren't you aware that in 1998

12 there were many instances of Albanians being suspected of collaborating

13 because they were friendly with Serbs? You know that, don't you, sir?

14 A. There may have been suspicions, but suspicion is not a

15 conclusion.

16 Q. And people were detained on the basis of those suspicions.

17 Albanians -- Albanians were held in prisons. You know that, don't you?

18 A. Mr. Prosecutor, the Albanians were fighting against Serbia. The

19 Albanians were not being imprisoned by the Albanians. They were fighting

20 against Serbia, against Serbian repressive apparatus and forces. Sir,

21 your definition don't seem fair that the Albanians were being imprisoned.

22 Q. Are you aware of any instance of 1998 of an Albanian being

23 imprisoned by the KLA for collaboration, being suspected of

24 collaborating?

25 A. I don't recall any specific case. There may have been any

1 instances, but I don't remember, but not imprisonment. I mean, not send

2 someone to prison, because the KLA did not have any prison facilities.

3 Q. When you say that, what do you mean by "prison facility," just so

4 we're clear, just so the record is clear here. You said the KLA

5 department have any prison facilities. What do you mean by "prison

6 facility"?

7 A. I may repeat it, that the KLA was not a place which could be

8 defined as a prison, because I think all of us means what -- understand

9 what a prison is. We didn't have such facilities.

10 Q. Let's be sure we all understand what a prison is. If I define a

11 prison as any building or place where somebody is held against their

12 will, do you still maintain that the KLA had no prisons or people were

13 held during 1998?

14 A. I am repeating it. The KLA didn't have any prisons.

15 Q. And you accept my definition of a prison when you give that

16 answer?

17 A. I would kindly ask you to accept my definition that the KLA

18 didn't have any prisons.

19 Q. And what's your definition of a prison?

20 A. A prison is a facility and an establishment. I think it would be

21 naive on my part to explain to you what a prison is. I believe it's a

22 place where people are taken, detained for long periods of time,

23 something like this more or less. But this is not the focus of my

24 knowledge. I don't have much knowledge on prisons because I've never

25 been to prison, to a prison. I don't know what they're like.

1 Q. Now, sir, you testified earlier that you never during the war,

2 during 1996, 1997, 1998, you never targeted Serb civilians; correct?

3 A. I'm giving you an accurate definition. We never targeted armed

4 Serb civilians. Excuse me, unarmed.

5 Q. Mr. Selimi, do you remember after the war giving an interview to

6 the BBC that was used as part of a documentary?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. You remember that interview? You remember that programme was

9 broadcast in January of 2003?

10 A. I don't remember the accurate date, but I do remember the

11 interview.

12 Q. Were you truthful in the interview?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I'm going to show you a little clip from the interview which was

15 broadcast, and what I'm going to do is I'm also going to provide you with

16 a transcript of what you say in the interview.

17 MR. WHITING: And if the usher could provide the witness -- it's

18 been provided to the Court and the Defence.

19 Q. Mr. Selimi, if you would watch carefully.

20 MR. WHITING: And if we could switch to the Sanction, please.

21 Q. Now, just so it's clear, on the tape the narrator on the tape

22 will speak in English, and then most of the rest of the tape will be

23 Albanian in English, and then most of the tape will be Albanian speaking

24 with subtitles. The subtitling for this particular witness's portion of

25 the interview is incomplete. It's more brief than what is actually said,

1 which is why we have provided the transcript, which is a complete

2 transcript of what the witness said.

3 So if we could now play the clip.

4 [Videotape played]

5 NARRATOR: "A small group of Kosovo Albanians responded by

6 setting up the Kosovo Liberation Army, the KLA. In 1996 they set out to

7 attract the world's attention.

8 [Albanian spoken]

9 NARRATOR: "One of the grenade throwers was a law student in

10 Kosovo's capital, Pristina.

11 [Albanian spoken]"

12 MR. WHITING:

13 Q. So, Mr. Selimi, when you testified here that you never targeted

14 Serb civilians, that was not true, was it?

15 A. No, sir. That was not a target. That was not the goal, to kill

16 Serbian civilians or civilians at all. If you remember, nobody was

17 harmed, civilian or otherwise.

18 Q. Mr. Selimi --

19 A. The message was something different.

20 Q. Let's be clear on what you did here. The target was the medical

21 centre where Serb refugees were being held; correct?

22 A. Not the medical centre, a school, a school of medicine. It used

23 to be a school of medicine. Within this facility there were Serb

24 civilians. And please let me finish, if you please. And the grenade was

25 thrown not at the building but far, much away from the building. And the

1 message that we wanted to convey through this, if you allow me to

2 explain, is this --

3 Q. The message was to scare the civilians out of Kosovo, wasn't it,

4 Mr. Selimi?

5 A. The message was that the Serb colonisers who had settled in

6 Kosova was that they have come from a previous war to another war. The

7 message was not to intimidate them but to make them aware of the

8 situation, of the fact that they were colonisers. They had suffered

9 other grenades before coming there.

10 Q. I see. You thought you would make them aware that they were

11 colonisers, and you would not intimidate them by throwing a grenade at

12 the building where they were staying. Is that what you're saying?

13 A. Your Honours, it was not thrown at the building, the grenade, it

14 was thrown away, much further from the building. If you have the report

15 compiled by the Serb police. And that grenade exploded. It was very far

16 away from the civilians. It was very easy for us to throw it at the

17 building, but we didn't do it. We didn't throw any grenades at the

18 building during that night because that was not the only action taken

19 that night.

20 Q. Mr. Selimi, even accepting what you're saying here today that it

21 wasn't thrown at the building, it was thrown far from the building, the

22 purpose was to frighten and scare the Serb civilians, to send them the

23 message to get out of Kosovo. Right, Mr. Selimi?

24 A. Not to scare them, to make them aware of the fact that they were

25 foreigners in Kosova.

1 Q. Can you explain to us how throwing a grenade at or near the

2 building where they were living, at night, would make them aware of

3 anything except of fear?

4 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, I do interpose because that's twice

5 that Mr. Whiting has misconstrued or misinterpreted the words of this

6 witness in relation to where it was that the grenade was thrown. He said

7 twice it wasn't at the building but far away.

8 If the Prosecution have material such as the Serb police report,

9 then we would like to know if his question is based on some other

10 information.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Mr. Whiting, carry on.

12 MR. WHITING:

13 Q. Mr. Selimi, let's put aside where exactly the grenade was thrown.

14 Can you explain to me how a grenade would do anything but frighten the

15 people in that building, civilians in that building?

16 A. I'm repeating. The aim was not to scare or intimidate people but

17 to make them aware that they didn't know where they had come. If you

18 allow me to go on. We couldn't do that. We couldn't make them aware by

19 sending them letters or by begging them. They should thank us for that.

20 Q. I'm sorry, they should thank you for the grenade?

21 A. No, for making them aware. We warned them that sooner or later

22 the war was going to break out.

23 Q. And that they were in danger; correct? That's what you were

24 trying to make them aware of, that they were in danger.

25 A. I don't think that you would believe me if I said they would be

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1 most welcome to Kosova and that we would embrace them for coming there.

2 Q. If that's -- if that's true, that you would embrace them for

3 coming there, then why did you throw a grenade to send them a message or

4 make them aware, as you say?

5 A. This message was not meant only to be conveyed only at those

6 people. It was meant also to be heard by the Serb policy which continued

7 to send columns and -- to Kosova from Croatia and it was a message to all

8 who were working for the colonisation of Kosova. In this case it was a

9 message for the Serb policy.

10 Q. And when I asked you the question earlier whether you had ever

11 targeted Serb civilians, did you forget about this event or did you just

12 think this was not targeted Serb civilians?

13 A. Your Honours, we have to understand one thing. If we targeted

14 the Serb civilians, then there will be casualties there. I repeat,

15 nobody was harmed. That's why I'm saying that they -- the Serb civilians

16 were not the target of the attack. We didn't intend to cause harm to any

17 Serb civilians that day.

18 Q. Just to make them aware.

19 A. If you need me, I may repeat the same things I said earlier.

20 Q. I don't need you to repeat. You met Fatmir Limaj in 1992;

21 correct?

22 A. It could be correct.

23 Q. Well, what's your memory? What's your best memory?

24 A. I met Fatmir Limaj during the time when we started at the same

25 university in different faculties. At that time, we were both students.

1 I met him in his apartment.

2 Q. He joined the KLA in August of 1996; correct?

3 A. I would define it a little bit differently, if you allow me. He

4 was in contact with the KLA, and since 1996, he was more informed of the

5 existence of the KLA, but he did not any -- perform any activity that

6 would make him a member of the KLA at that time.

7 Q. During 1996 did you participate in any actions with Fatmir Limaj?

8 A. Actions? No.

9 Q. Did he provide any assistance to you or other KLA members during

10 1996?

11 A. We went to his house, and that was an assistance for us.

12 Q. You testified that during 1997, you said, "I didn't have accurate

13 knowledge as to where Fatmir was in 1997, and there was no way how I

14 could because I was in such circumstances that I couldn't know. After

15 his return from Switzerland, I realised that he was there."

16 Do you remember testifying that way yesterday -- or, rather, on

17 Friday?

18 A. Approximately it was like that, but in the end of the sentence I

19 said that I was sure where he was before he returned and after he

20 returned. So in other words, before he returned from Switzerland, I knew

21 that he was in Switzerland.

22 Q. How did you know that?

23 A. I don't know exactly, but I did find out through someone. I

24 found out that he was in Switzerland and he was active in the Fatherland

25 Calling Fund, and I was very glad to hear that.

1 Q. Did you have any communication with him during 1997?

2 A. I attempted to establish a contact with him while he was in

3 Switzerland in 1997. I don't know whether he got my message, but I did

4 try to contact Fatmir while he was in Switzerland.

5 Q. By the way, Mr. Selimi, have you been following this trial? Have

6 you been watching the testimony of this trial?

7 A. From time to time, parts of it.

8 Q. Did you watch any of the testimony or cross-examination of Fatmir

9 Limaj?

10 A. Several times, yes.

11 Q. In fact, weren't you in the gallery during some of the testimony

12 and cross-examination of Mr. Limaj?

13 A. One day, yes, but not throughout his testimony.

14 Q. Let's turn to 1998. You talked earlier today, and I'm referring

15 to page 3 of the transcript from earlier today, that one of the biggest

16 events that affected the organisation of the KLA was the events at the

17 beginning of March 1998. Do you recall that testimony?

18 A. That's how it is, yes.

19 Q. And up to that time the KLA had what you described as a

20 horizontal structure; correct?

21 A. I wanted to be helpful in informing you about the structure of

22 the KLA at that time, and that's why I thought a definition of that

23 structure as a horizontal one would be most appropriate.

24 Q. And after the events of early -- end of February, early March

25 1998, there was an enormous influx of new soldiers into the KLA; correct?

1 A. You couldn't still call them soldiers. They were Albanian

2 volunteers who were asking for uniforms and weapons to join the KLA army

3 because the KLA was the only force now after the attack that it had

4 launched against the Serbian police stations.

5 Q. Okay. Volunteers to the KLA, an enormous number of volunteers to

6 the KLA after the beginning of March 1998; correct?

7 A. At that time we can say that it was the enormous flux of people

8 who wanted to join the KLA.

9 Q. And at that time the structure changed from a horizontal

10 structure to a more organised chain of command; correct?

11 A. No, because we cannot say changed. If we say that this changed

12 at that time, it would mean that it changed at a certain point in time.

13 At that time, the reorganisation of the KLA required time. Maybe it had

14 begun, but it did not have the form and the structure that we desired.

15 Q. But the change began after the beginning of May. That's when the

16 change started in the structure; correct?

17 A. It depends where.

18 Q. Well, one of the first things that was done was to create

19 operational zones; right?

20 A. No. I think that there was something else prior to the creation

21 of operational zones.

22 Q. Which was?

23 A. The reception of those people and providing them with

24 accommodation in the places where they were arriving; gathering of

25 supplies, assistance, suggestions here and there, because we were not

1 able to create a structure before receiving people who should have been

2 part of that structure.

3 Q. Okay. You received people, and you got to work on creating

4 operational zones. Right?

5 A. It could be so approximately.

6 Q. And certainly by May of 1998 the operational zones that you

7 talked about were conceived of, that is the Drenica zone, the Pashtrik

8 zone, the Dukadjin zone and the others; correct?

9 A. No.

10 Q. There was no plan by May of 1998 for these operational zones?

11 A. In May 1998 the creation of the Drenica operational zone began,

12 and the organisation of the command of this zone in the existing

13 circumstances. I say "the existing circumstances" because the

14 circumstances were such that it was difficult for us to create a zone.

15 However, we needed to create a structure in accordance with the existing

16 circumstances.

17 Q. Maybe you misunderstood my question. My question was: By May of

18 1998, you had already figured out what the Pashtrik zone was, the

19 Dukadjin zone, the Drenica zone.

20 A. We had not envisaged which would be the Dukadjin or Pashtrik

21 zone. What we thought was that we should begin with the creation of the

22 first zone and then with the other zones. So the first zone was the

23 Drenica operational zone. However, we did not make precise the names,

24 specify the names of the zones. And what those zones were going to be,

25 we decided on that later.

1 Q. Are you saying that in May of 1998 the only zone that was

2 conceived of was the Drenica zone?

3 A. At that time, there were different ideas, but at the time, as for

4 Drenica zone, you can say that the command of this zone was structured.

5 Q. I'm not talking about the --

6 A. And the zone was delineated.

7 Q. I'm not talking about the command. I'm just talking about the

8 existence of the zone.

9 By May of 1998, it was already understood where the Pashtrik zone

10 was, the Dukadjin zone, the Drenica zone, the Llap zone.

11 A. It was already understood where or where to continue with the

12 restructuring of the KLA, but you couldn't know what the name of that

13 zone would be. At least this is how I understand it.

14 Q. And I'm not making a distinction here between zones and subzones.

15 Right. It's not an issue about zones and subzones.

16 A. The difference between zones and subzones was most of the time a

17 distinction in terminology.

18 MR. WHITING: If the witness could be shown Prosecution Exhibit

19 49, please. We actually have did in big format. And I draw the Court's

20 attention to Prosecution Exhibit 48 at U0038566.

21 Q. Mr. Selimi, I want to draw your attention to the top of the page

22 there. You see this is a page from Koha Ditore from the 13th of May,

23 1998?

24 MR. WHITING: I think it would be easiest with the witness just

25 looks at the document and we have on Sanction the English translation of

1 the document. It's 8573. My apologise.

2 Q. Mr. Selimi, you see this is a communique from the KLA dated --

3 and it's the 13th of May, 1998. Do you see that in the first paragraph

4 it reference to the operational subzones of Drenica, Erenik, Dukadjin,

5 Pashtrik, and Llap?

6 A. Yes, I can see that. I think you mentioned Erenik zone as well.

7 Q. Well, that's there, isn't it?

8 A. And you should know that there has never been an Ereniku

9 operational zone in the structuring of the KLA. Let me tell you that at

10 that time, it was an idea, a plan, and this shows clearly how it was

11 changed later on and how it wasn't applied in the future, because the

12 Ereniku zone was never structured.

13 Q. But there's certain reference -- let's put aside the Erenik

14 reference there. There's certainly reference to the Dukadjin, Pashtrik,

15 and Drenica zones; right?

16 A. Yes. Dukagjini is a province, part of Kosova. Also Drenica is a

17 province, a part of Kosova. And as a result, maybe this was found just

18 to be applied in the future.

19 Q. Well, in fact, if you look more carefully at the communique,

20 there's reference to actions that took place in these various zones --

21 subzones. There's fighting in Drenica, fighting in Pashtrik. Military

22 operations in Dukadjin. Take a moment to look at it.

23 So you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that by May of 1998

24 these were actual places, the Pashtrik zone, subzone, the Drenica

25 subzone? They're being talked about here in this communique.

1 A. I agree they are talked about in this communique, but the KLA in

2 its terminology used the term operational subzone, and I suppose you have

3 heard it quite often, and this belongs more, I think, to the earlier

4 organisation which we described as guerrilla organisation composed of

5 small groups operating in given zones.

6 As to the way the people who have drafted this communique have

7 thought, I can't tell for sure. I am here to testify to the truth, to

8 bring you closer to it, to tell you that we have never had a full

9 restructuring of the KLA as it is said here. I don't recall this

10 communication and the time it was released.

11 Q. The operational zones were a change from the earlier

12 organisation; right? It was an effort to structure the KLA in a

13 different way; correct?

14 A. Bearing in mind the time we are talking about, the summer of

15 1998, we were not the only ones to dictate the circumstances and the

16 restructuring of the KLA. We were dictated also by the circumstances, by

17 the situation. The events that occurred during the summer of 1998 and

18 later imposed it on us to follow the events with the reorganisation of

19 the future structure. So I am repeating that we started with the

20 organisation of Drenica operational zone, and in May we had the code for

21 that zone. And then we continued in August, September, with the Pashtrik

22 and Dukadjin operational zone which happened at the same time to go on

23 with the restructuring of the KLA until the end of the war with

24 establishment of the Karadak operational zone. It was a procedure that

25 took time, especially given the fact that we were in the wartime and the

1 difficulties were greater.

2 Q. These structures were created gradually, is that what you're

3 saying? Over time?

4 A. The structure was created in extremely difficult situation and of

5 course it is understandable that it would take a long time.

6 Q. They had -- these structures had to be built over a period of

7 time.

8 A. They had to be built.

9 Q. You couldn't just in one day have a structure, just decide that

10 you were going to have a structure and there it would be; correct?

11 Right?

12 A. Of course.

13 Q. Now, with respect to the operational zones or subzones, and I'm

14 not making a distinction here, the -- they were created along strategic

15 lines. The borders were created along strategic lines, not municipality

16 lines; correct?

17 A. Usually the zones are created along geostrategic lines. It

18 depends where. In some cases they were created on the basis of the

19 municipalities, in some others not.

20 Q. Now, let's turn to March of 1998 when Fatmir Limaj came to

21 Likovc. How long had you been in Likovc before he arrived?

22 A. In Drenice, I think I'd been there for quite some time, specially

23 during 1997 and the beginning of 1998 because I was involved in several

24 activities related to the KLA at that time. Generally I spent most of my

25 time in Drenice, in Likovc or somewhere else.

1 Q. Were -- around this time, March of 1998, were some of -- was Muje

2 Krasniqi in Likovc at any time?

3 A. Several times.

4 Q. What about Ilaz Kodra?

5 A. He too. He may have been there several times.

6 Q. Ilaz Derguti?

7 A. He also has been there.

8 Q. Do you recall, by the way, meeting -- seeing Ymer Alushani in

9 Likovc?

10 A. Yeah, I've seen him once.

11 Q. Was it in Likovc?

12 A. I think so, in Likovc.

13 Q. Do you recall when it was?

14 A. I don't know exactly when.

15 Q. Before May of 1998?

16 A. Probably. It may be.

17 Q. Now, Fatmir Limaj, when he came to Likovc, he came with a large

18 group of people; correct?

19 A. At that time there were other people in Likovc. There were many

20 people, so I didn't know with whom he had come.

21 Q. You don't remember anyone that he came with?

22 A. Maybe I'm mistaken, but he came with several people who stopped

23 at Likovc.

24 Q. Do you remember any of them?

25 A. Sait Jashari may be one. I'm not certain. It may be Fehmi

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1 Lladrovci, another one. Several young men whose names I don't know.

2 Hashim Thaqi may be the one. I don't know, but I think these were in

3 general the people I remember.

4 Q. And when he went to -- when he left Likovc, when Fatmir Limaj

5 went to Likovc and went to Klecke, his task was to try to organise the

6 KLA in the areas of Suva Reka, Malisheve, those areas?

7 A. I don't think anyone had entrusted him with such a duty.

8 Q. You don't recall having a discussion with him and with Hashim

9 Thaqi about what he would do when he went down to Likovc -- I mean to

10 Klecke?

11 A. I don't recall exactly. I don't know what kind of discussion you

12 mean, because we have met. We have discussed. We have informed each

13 other. But I don't remember any specific debate or discussion.

14 Q. You don't recall what his task was?

15 A. All the fighters had the same task. I don't think Fatmir Limaj

16 had any specific task at that time.

17 Q. You don't think he had a task of organising in those areas,

18 Malisevo, Suva Reka?

19 A. He may have had it as an objective but not as an assigned duty or

20 task.

21 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, perhaps that's a convenient moment.

22 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at five minutes to six.

23 --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.

1 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Selimi, do you remember in April 1998 Fatmir Limaj came to

3 Likovc on several occasions?

4 A. I know that he came to Likovc, but I don't know how many times.

5 Q. But more that once?

6 A. I agree.

7 Q. And you went to Klecke around the end of April 1998?

8 A. I don't know that date, because Klecke was not the only place I

9 went to.

10 Q. Was it around that time?

11 A. It may be. I'm not sure.

12 Q. In April 1998, Ramiz Qeriqi and Isak Musliu came to Likovc. Do

13 you remember that?

14 A. I remember Ramiz Qeriqi, but I don't remember that Isak Musliu

15 came. Maybe he did come.

16 Q. You remember that was in April 1998?

17 A. It may be.

18 Q. You remember that Ramiz Qeriqi had a letter from Azem Syla?

19 A. That's why I said I remember Ramiz Qeriqi. I remember him

20 because of this letter.

21 Q. And Ramiz -- when Ramiz Qeriqi left Likovc, he went to Kroimire;

22 right?

23 A. I don't know exactly where he went but this is what I thought.

24 Q. By the way, during March, April, May, June and July, did you ever

25 go from Likovc to Kroimire?

1 A. I don't think so, because I had no reason to go there.

2 Q. Now, I want to ask you some questions about the General Staff.

3 You testified - and I'm looking at page 13 of today's transcript - that

4 it was at the end of summer or in the summer of 1997 it was -- excuse me,

5 1998, "it was based there in Divjak." Do you remember saying that

6 earlier today?

7 A. Of course I remember.

8 Q. So your testimony is that the -- the General Staff moved to

9 Divjak at the end of the summer 1998?

10 A. At that time, I went there several times.

11 Q. Didn't the General Staff, in fact, move to Divjak or Klecka in

12 May of 1998?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Your memory is that it didn't move -- it wasn't until August of

15 1998 or at the end of summer that it moved?

16 A. It could be approximately this way.

17 Q. Approximately which way?

18 A. During summer, part of General Staff went to Divjak, but

19 personally I was mostly focused in the organisation of the Drenica

20 operative zone, and at the time there was fighting going on.

21 Q. I understand. So during summer, part of the General Staff moved

22 to Divjak. When during the summer?

23 A. I don't remember any specific dates, because I don't think it is

24 important, dates, hours, and so on. But in the summer of 1998, there was

25 a need for a part of General Staff to be there. The public information

1 department usually stayed there at that time in Divjak but not always.

2 Q. I understand you can't remember the specific date, but what's

3 your best memory of the month when that occurred, May, June, July,

4 August?

5 A. It may be after the structuring of Drenica operational zone was

6 completed, August, September, but it mostly stayed there in the end of

7 1998 and the beginning of 1999 and until the end of the war.

8 Q. Mr. Selimi, do you remember being interviewed by the OTP on the

9 2nd of April, 2004?

10 A. Yes, I remember.

11 Q. You were interviewed -- you had your attorney present with you

12 during that interview?

13 A. Yes. I had a legal advisor with me, a lawyer.

14 Q. You were truthful in that interview?

15 A. Of course I was.

16 Q. I'm going to -- with the assistance of the usher, I'm going to

17 ask that you provided with a transcript of the interview.

18 MR. WHITING: And I believe that copies have been provided to the

19 Court and to the counsel.

20 Q. If you could turn it page 43, please. And I'm just going to

21 read, and both the Albanian and the English are there. And the question

22 is: "Headquarters, where was that based?" And the answer: "It was

23 depending. From March until May it was in the region of Drenica, in the

24 zone we are discussing right now. But from this day it passed in the

25 zone of Pashtrik. Exactly. We call the place Malet e Berishes, Berisha

1 mountains." Next page: "In the village of Divjak, which is in the

2 centre of those mountains."

3 Were you able to follow that along with me, Mr. Selimi? Are you

4 on the right page?

5 A. No, I don't think I'm on the right page. Could you repeat the

6 number of the page, please. Is it 43 or --

7 MR. HARVEY: It seems to be 44 and 45 if I read it correctly.

8 MR. WHITING: I'm sure the Court's correct. I have a different

9 version. Thank you. I appreciate that.

10 Q. I apologise. On page 44. Are we on 44 now? Do you see it? The

11 question is: "Headquarters, where was that based?" It's towards the

12 bottom of the page. And then: "It was depending. From March until" --

13 and read on to 45: "In March it was in the region of Drenica in the zone

14 we are talking about now but in this date passed in the zone of

15 Pashtrik," and then you say, "in Divjak."

16 And then please turn to page 48. You repeat it. You say: "May

17 1998 to Likovc to Divjak. I could not be exact. It was like the end of

18 May, even though it could be June."

19 Does that help you remember now that it moved in May, possibly in

20 June?

21 A. I even mentioned it here as you may recall that I'm not sure

22 about the dates, because the dates were not that important. And I say

23 this when I attempt to inform you with the circumstances and the reality

24 at that time.

25 Q. Well, I understand the dates aren't important to you, but they

1 are important to us. So we need to get your best memory about dates.

2 And so now that you have seen your prior interview, do you remember that

3 it was in May or possibly the beginning of June when the -- part of the

4 General Staff moved to Divjak?

5 A. Yes. "You recall that the interviews of the KLA spokesperson

6 were released from that location. The spokesperson was part of the KLA

7 General Staff." In this context, I've said that, and I will continuously

8 say that.

9 Q. And do you recall that the spokesman made his -- Jakup Krasniqi

10 made his first statement from Klecka on the 14th of June, 1998?

11 A. Thanks for reminding me but, however, I don't know the exact

12 date.

13 Q. But you accept that he moved to that area before he made his

14 first statement; correct?

15 A. Of course. Since he gave the statement from that part, because

16 he couldn't have made a statement if he wasn't there. The spokesperson

17 found that place like more appropriate one to give a public statement in

18 the capacity of the KLA spokesperson. I think that he came to a

19 conclusion that that was the most appropriate location.

20 Q. Now, you testified earlier today that after May of 1998 you

21 became the operational chief on the General Staff; that is right?

22 A. Yes, approximately. I don't remember the date again, I'm sorry.

23 Q. And at around the same time, Jakup Krasniqi was appointed as

24 spokesperson for the KLA; correct?

25 A. Yes, at that time.

1 Q. And the purpose of having a spokesperson was to -- so that the

2 KLA communicate in a more direct manner with the public, both in Kosovo

3 and internationally; right?

4 A. This is the role of the spokesperson, to have contacts with the

5 public opinion inside the country and abroad.

6 Q. And his job was to convey a true image of the KLA; correct?

7 A. His job was to have contacts with the public opinion which was

8 crucial in creating a vision amongst the people who wanted to join the

9 KLA.

10 Q. To create a true image of the KLA; right?

11 A. This was under his competence how to create that image, how to be

12 more efficient in the -- in launching propaganda about the KLA warfare,

13 which was not at all times true to the image of the KLA.

14 Q. So your testimony is that his job was not to create a true image

15 but to launch propaganda? Is that your testimony?

16 A. I think that his duty was to make the population aware and to

17 instigate people to join the KLA in this war.

18 Q. It was to reveal realistically the KLA, the image of the KLA;

19 right?

20 A. Propaganda rarely has this role.

21 Q. His job wasn't to engage in propaganda, it was to reveal a

22 realistic and true image of the KLA, wasn't it?

23 A. He was a public spokesperson, and his role was to make people

24 join the KLA.

25 Q. You thought that he succeeded in revealing a public -- a

1 realistic and true image of the KLA, didn't you?

2 A. I couldn't say that because his role was propaganda and contact

3 with the public opinion. You couldn't provide publicly at that time the

4 KLA image. This was propaganda, a mechanism that created circumstances

5 which would make people join the KLA war, and this is not in accordance

6 with the KLA reality.

7 Q. Could you turn, please, to page 37 of your interview.

8 MR. WHITING: And could we switch to the Sanction, please.

9 Q. Do you see on page 37 the question: "Why did we do the public

10 information?" You actually ask the question yourself. You say -- it's

11 the -- it's --

12 A. Which line, please?

13 Q. It's the fourth line down in Albanian on 37.

14 A. [In English] Okay.

15 Q. Okay. I'm actually going to play this part of the interview, and

16 it's on the Sanction. It's not video just audio so the transcript will

17 following along with the audio. So you can listen to it and follow along

18 with the transcript.

19 [Audiotape played]

20 "UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Why did we do the public information?

21 Because at that time we did not have any representational people. We did

22 not have a state representational body to represent us in front of the

23 world. This body would have managed the contacts whether with the

24 journalists or the diplomats. And of course at that time we did not have

25 a country, a state or a Ministry of Information, let's say, which would

1 back us up. So we included [sic] this aspect to be an immediate, an

2 important one. And at the same time this -- we had a spokesperson who

3 communicate in a more direct manner with the public, inner and external

4 public, which at that time and later on it was referred to as a point of

5 contact with the KLA, the spokesperson. At that time it was also a true

6 image of the KLA, which helped also the world to know us better. Because

7 at the same time with the development of the war we had -- we had an

8 intention to reveal realistically our image, to inform who are we and

9 what do we want. And I believe that we achieved our goals more or less

10 with the institution called spokesperson."

11 MR. WHITING:

12 Q. Mr. President Selimi, Jakup Krasniqi's job was to reveal a

13 realistic and true image of the KLA, wasn't it? That's what you said.

14 A. [Interpretation] Jakup Krasniqi's job was to make propaganda for

15 the KLA, to have contacts with the public opinion, with journalists. And

16 I've said it here and I will repeat it again: We didn't have the

17 facility to manage this department, and whoever was in our place would

18 have acted in the same way.

19 Q. Did you see in the interview that was just played that you said

20 that "At that time it was also a true image of the KLA, which helped also

21 the world to know us better. We had an intention to reveal realistically

22 our image and to inform who we are and what do we want, and I believed --

23 I believe that we achieved our goals more or less with the institution

24 called spokesperson"?

25 And that's true, isn't it, what you said there? Those words are

1 true?

2 A. Even now I did not deny that. His role was to make a propaganda

3 and to make a good image of the KLA warfare. And I believe that the KLA

4 image was very good, and this was the aim of the KLA spokesperson at that

5 time. I did not deny what I said earlier and what I'm saying now.

6 As to how much he achieved his goal, I don't know. He knows that.

7 Q. Mr. Selimi, I want to ask you some questions about Lapusnik. You

8 know, right, that Lapusnik was taken by the KLA on the 9th of May, 1998;

9 right?

10 A. I'm not sure when you're saying "was taken." What do you mean by

11 that. I don't think this is the right definition, "was taken by the KLA

12 on the 9th of May, 1998." If you could help me with the wording, I would

13 really be grateful.

14 Q. Starting on the 9th of May, 1998, the KLA had control of the

15 village of Lapusnik and, therefore, had cut off the Pristina-Peja road.

16 Is that more clear?

17 A. Thank you. In May 1998, the Lapusnik gorge in this case -

18 because we're not speaking of Lapusnik but of the Lapusnik gorge - the

19 main road passing through this gorge was cut off in order to make it

20 possible for another function. This main road was cut off in order to

21 create another road which would be placed in the function of the

22 population, civilian population, which at that time moved from dangerous

23 zones to less difficult zones in Malisheve.

24 This road that was passing through Lapusnik created the

25 possibility for all those individuals and volunteers who wanted to help

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1 the population in Drenica with medicaments and food supplies.

2 Q. Cutting off the road also had a military purpose, didn't it?

3 A. In this case, everything that was military was in the function of

4 the population, and it was for the best functioning of both the KLA and

5 the civilian population.

6 Q. And the KLA knew, before it cut off the road, knew that it would

7 be strategically important to do that. That would be a strategic success

8 to cut it off.

9 A. If that road was cut off, it would certainly be a success.

10 That's were the Serb placed most to the fall of that gorge. It would

11 however be vital to the civilian population. If the Serb forces were

12 still there, the situation of the Albanian population would be very

13 precarious both in terms of foodstuffs and medicaments.

14 Q. My question is you knew, the KLA knew the importance of cutting

15 off the road there before it was cut off; right?

16 A. In fact, the blocking of the Lapusnik gorge, the gorge towards

17 the asphalt road, was a must, because hadn't we closed, blocked that, we

18 wouldn't be able to circulate around that part. So the need was to

19 circulate. That's why we cut off the road, and that was done on the

20 initiative of the Lapusnik villagers.

21 Q. Now, did there -- there came a time when you decided where

22 certain units would be located such as the Pellumbi unit, the Lumi unit,

23 Celiku units?

24 A. I don't think the time came for us to decide whether to dispatch

25 these units. We couldn't dispatch them or station them to different

1 places because they were born there. They were formed there.

2 Q. You looked at a map and named the different units; right?

3 A. I have contributed to this respect.

4 Q. I'm not sure that was absolutely clear. You contributed in this

5 respect by looking at a map and naming different units like the Pellumbi

6 units, the Lumi units, the Celiku units, and designating where they were;

7 correct?

8 A. In fact, it was very necessary to communicate through radio among

9 the units that were set up in various villages, and this communication

10 was impossible to do other than through a simple code system whereby we

11 could identify the units that were formed by the villagers in various

12 villages. That's why at that time I thought I contributed to the coding

13 of the names of the units which were formed later in different villages.

14 This was a temporary solution, because at the time, the codes were used

15 only for a given period of time, only temporarily. So when the

16 structuring of the KLA was being done in that area, there was no need for

17 such codes because the units could be identified otherwise.

18 Q. But you were the one who decided, using a map, where the

19 different units were located and how they were named; right? That's how

20 you contributed.

21 A. You are making me repeat what I said. At that time, I deemed it

22 necessary to contribute to the name of some units, especially units which

23 didn't have a name. That's why I contributed to naming come of them,

24 because otherwise I couldn't communicate using the names of the villages

25 in the radio. This is to put it simply.

1 Q. Now, let's talk about what Fatmir Limaj did from -- during the

2 period from March to August of 1998. In fact, he was during that time

3 period coordinating units in the area around Malisevo, Suva Reka -- let's

4 say from the Berisha Mountains down to Suva Reka.

5 A. I think that the term "definition" is rather broad. It depends

6 how you interpreter it, what you call a definition -- or excuse me,

7 "coordination." Coordination might be any tendency to base, to rely on

8 and to assist reciprocally. I think that Fatmir Limaj didn't want to be

9 alone. He wanted to be coordinated with his unit, because without

10 coordination he wouldn't be able to do anything.

11 Q. He was organising units in those areas from the Berisha Mountains

12 down to Suva Reka.

13 A. I can't say that he organised the units because he didn't have

14 the power to do that. Even for the organisation of his unit he had

15 difficulties, let alone organising other units. He had been there for a

16 short time by that period, and it was difficult for him to be engaged in

17 organisation. He was called to do that.

18 Q. I'm talking about the period from April to August of 1998.

19 A. Yes, exactly. About this period I'm talking about. This is the

20 period I meant. It was difficult for each of us at that time to be a

21 true organiser or coordinator irrespective of the tendency to do that.

22 Q. I understand it was difficult, but that's in fact what he was

23 doing, organising, coordinating that area; right?

24 A. If you allow me, I'll try to provide you as much realistic

25 information about events at that time as possible. Also me also to

1 repeat that -- that to be at the head of the organisation work at that

2 time was very difficult, almost impossible. The most one could do in

3 terms of organisation was within a single unit during various fighting or

4 operations to provide support for other units that operated in that area.

5 So I think at that time Fatmir had two difficult things to do: one, to

6 take care of his unit; and second, to be there to help other units in

7 need during fighting. I think that was a lot of things -- a lot to do.

8 Q. Could you just turn, please, to page 68 of the transcript. And

9 I'm just going to play this portion of the transcript. It starts from --

10 if you look at page -- if you look at page 68, look at the top, it says:

11 "In the Malisevo zones and around Malisevo --" do you see that?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 MR. WHITING: We need to switch to Sanction.

14 [Audiotape played]

15 "UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: In the Malisevo zone and the surroundings

16 of Malisevo, were after, much, much after the organisation of Drenica,

17 because Drenica had also started years before that to organise. And

18 Malisevo started in April 1998. That is when they started to look for

19 people. But what was Fatmir's role in this case? Fatmir inherited a

20 knowledge, I mean knowing the relatives. And what did he do? He looked

21 for people. He of course concentrated in the surroundings of Malisheva.

22 I do not know the villages maybe now, but -- but it was so even when we

23 communicated together. We together need to assist, to help the people in

24 Malisheva. Was it easy or not, I don't want to take it [indiscernible]

25 that but the field of his activity or concentration was in this kind of a

1 [indiscernible] and he had two extreme points of his organisation

2 starting from -- in the -- from the Berisha Mountains and going to the

3 surroundings of Suhareke, going south from east, east, west, going south.

4 I am referring also to the code names of the units. With regards to the

5 fact of the name Celiku, code name Celiku of the units. Celiku in

6 Berisha, Terpeze, Malisheve, up to the villages which I cannot remember

7 the name but they're close by Malisheva. And all the way to the

8 municipality building of Suhareke. The municipality of Suhareke, not the

9 building, sorry. As much as I remember, in Suhareke it was Celiku 50.

10 It was in this line, this role. His role was identified as the

11 coordinator of all these units till we come to a level when these units

12 are organised, structured in an operational zone.

13 "So what time frame are we talking about then?

14 "Exactly which time period. April, August 1998."

15 MR. WHITING: I need to make two corrections to the transcript.

16 On page 70 when it says "he was identified as the coordinator of all of

17 these," it should read "units." And then the next translation "Until we

18 come to the level when these units are organised, structured in

19 operational units" is what I understand the translation should be.

20 Q. Mr. Selimi, you see where you said that "During this time period,

21 April to August of 1998 he had" -- you're talking about Fatmir Limaj, "he

22 had two extreme points of his organisation from the Berisha Mountains to

23 the surroundings of Suhareke." Do you see that? It's on page 69.

24 A. Yes, yes, I see it.

25 Q. And in fact, Fatmir Limaj during this period was organising this

1 area; correct?

2 A. He was trying to organise it.

3 Q. And on page 70, it says: "He was identified as the coordinator

4 of all these units." Do you see that on page 70, halfway down the page?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That's true, isn't it? He was the coordinator of all these

7 units.

8 A. Allow me to tell you that he was being identified as the

9 coordinator of units, because there was Celiku 1, and Fatmir was

10 Celiku 1. But each of the persons in charge of the units was responsible

11 for the organisation of his unit. Therefore, it was necessary to have a

12 general coordination of all the units let alone the Celiku units. Since

13 they had the same name, they had different numbers, which sometimes were

14 not in order. This does not imply, however, that he carried this role

15 and this function.

16 Q. I'm sorry. You said "it was necessary to have a general

17 coordination of all the units, let alone the Celiku units," and that is

18 the role that Fatmir Limaj played. He was coordinating the units; right?

19 A. He was identified to all as one of the coordinators who might

20 contribute to the coordination and reciprocal assistance of the units in

21 fighting.

22 Q. And he was --

23 A. I think I was clear.

24 Q. And he was identified that way because that is the role he was

25 trying to play; right? That's what he was trying to do. Right?

1 A. This unit was called Celiku unit number 1, and nobody could

2 identify it as Celiku 13.

3 Q. You're not answering the question, Mr. Selimi. The question is:

4 You said, "He was identified to all as one the coordinators who might

5 contribute to the coordination and reciprocal units in fighting." My

6 question was: He was identified that way because that was the role he

7 was trying to play. That's what he was trying to do; correct?

8 A. It may be interpreted in various ways. I'm trying -- or allow me

9 to try to clarify this issue. That's part of my role, to make you

10 acquainted with the circumstances so that I --

11 Q. If you could answer the question and then give your explanation.

12 The question was: He was identified in way in this role because that's

13 the role he was trying to play; correct?

14 A. No, sir. No, sir.

15 Q. Now you can now explain.

16 A. Thank you. At that time, there were many units formed in various

17 villages of Malisheve. Each of the -- each of the units needed to

18 coordinate with other units, and each unit had its role and tried to play

19 its role in the coordination of the units.

20 There was a horizontal organisation of the KLA at that time.

21 Since there was a need to organise ourselves, they had to coordinate and

22 defend themselves. They were units who knew of the existence of other

23 units, and each of them tried to contribute to the coordination of

24 fighting that broke out in different areas. This is what I'm trying to

25 tell you. If I'm not clear, then please let me know.

1 Q. I'll move on, Mr. Selimi.

2 You testified earlier today that the brigade -- the 121 Brigade

3 was formed at the end of August or September -- or beginning of

4 September. Do you remember that testimony?

5 A. Yes, I remember because this is how it was.

6 Q. In fact, Mr. Selimi, it was formed no later than the beginning of

7 August 1998, wasn't it?

8 A. The formation of a brigade was not something that could be done

9 overnight. It took some time. I tried to describe it, saying end of

10 August, beginning of September thinking that was the most realistic time

11 for the creation of this unit. I think I am just -- if I say that that

12 brigade was formed at the end of August and the beginning of September.

13 I have my reservation, however, regarding August.

14 Q. In fact, it was designated as the 121 Brigade. It was decided it

15 would be the 121 Brigade at the beginning of August; right?

16 A. The number 121 would be given to any brigade that would be formed

17 following the Drenica operational zone and Brigade 41, for because each

18 number has a certain function. I will try to explain it again. Every

19 brigade, no matter what it was --

20 Q. Mr. Selimi, I'm asking a very specific question, and if you don't

21 know the answer you can just say. The question is: The area that became

22 the 121 Brigade was designated as the 121 Brigade, named as the 121

23 Brigade the beginning of August; correct?

24 A. I can't be specific regarding dates. I don't know exactly, but

25 whatever brigade was formed at that time would have that number.

1 Q. Let's turn briefly to events after the war. In August of 1999,

2 you were the interior minister in Kosovo; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You were stopped and detained at a NATO checkpoint because you

5 pointed a gun at British troops; correct?

6 A. No, that's not correct.

7 Q. That didn't happen?

8 A. No, it didn't happen.

9 Q. Were you detained in August of 1999 by NATO at a checkpoint?

10 A. I don't know which of the Kosova citizens hasn't been detained

11 several times at NATO checkpoints. That was a common occurrence then.

12 Me, too. I was stopped several times at checkpoints.

13 Q. And you -- the reason you were detained was because you cocked

14 your gun and pointed it at British troops; correct?

15 A. No, that's not correct. Allow me to explain if you wish. I was

16 not detained for any other reason than because KFOR was conducting a

17 routine control on the road I happened to be passing by.

18 Q. Your house was searched -- I'm sorry, not your house, but a house

19 that was used by you and others as a meeting place was searched two days

20 later and NATO found a submachine-gun, ammunition, radio frequency

21 scanners, Ministry of Public Order identification cards stating that the

22 bearers were allowed to carry weapons, confiscate people and detain

23 people; right? That happened in August of 1999?

24 A. Yes. This is more or less what happened.

25 Q. And on the 11th of August, you had to declare void those permits

1 that had been given out to -- which allowed people to carry out arrests,

2 confiscate property, and so forth? You had to make an announcement

3 declaring those void; correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. In 2001, on the 27th of June, 2001, you were put on a blacklist

6 by the United States government; correct?

7 A. I don't know the date, but that may be the date.

8 Q. Your assets were frozen and you were barred from entering the

9 United States, correct, as a result of that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Some of the others who were put on that list at the same time as

12 you were, Daut Haradinaj, Rrustem Mustafa, Ramiz Lladrovci, and Sami

13 Lushtaku. Do you remember that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You remember that the -- that the United States government said

16 that that this group of men -- it believed that "this group of men had

17 committed or posed a significant risk of committing acts of violence that

18 have the purpose or effect of threatening the peace or diminishing the

19 stability or security of any area or state in the western Balkans

20 region." Do you remember that was part of the announcement of the United

21 States government at the time? You remember that announcement?

22 A. Even though I have asked an explanation from the office in

23 Pristina they never informed me of the reason I was put on that

24 blacklist.

25 Q. You didn't know you were put on the blacklist for supporting

1 guerrilla forces in Macedonia at the time?

2 A. Allow me to explain. I was not -- I was never informed why I was

3 included on that list. I was only informed of my superior, the TMK

4 commander, that I was on that list, but I was never given a -- an

5 official explanation why I was included in the list even though I had

6 demanded it twice officially.

7 Q. You recall that a month later or less than a month later that

8 your house was searched and 250 rounds of ammunition and weapons were

9 found in your house? You remember that happening in July of 2001?

10 A. Two hundred fifty weapons, you're saying, or rounds of

11 ammunition?

12 Q. No. Two hundred fifty rounds of ammunition and weapons. I can't

13 say how many weapons, but weapons.

14 A. The weapons were there. They were given -- authorised to be

15 there. They belonged to my bodyguard.

16 Q. They were seized by KFOR, weren't they?

17 A. I wasn't at home when that happened, but to my knowledge it was

18 the KFOR that searched my house. They were legal weapons issued by KFOR.

19 Q. Sir, I want to show you some pictures from Exhibit -- it's

20 Exhibit P24 in evidence in this case, and it's U0033240, 3243, and 3244.

21 If you could look first, please, at 3240. And it's on the Sanction.

22 Could you recognise that photo?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you remember when it was taken?

25 A. I believe it was January 1999, if I am precise. To what I can

1 see, it's January 1999.

2 Q. What makes you think it's January 1999?

3 A. The clothes we are wearing and the location where this picture

4 was taken.

5 Q. Where was it taken?

6 A. I believe it was taken in Novoselle village.

7 Q. Just so we have a clear record, could you just tell us who's in

8 the photo?

9 A. I am in the middle. To my right is Fatmir Limaj, and to my left

10 is Jakup Krasniqi.

11 Q. Could we now look at 3243, please. Do you remember when that

12 picture was taken?

13 A. I don't know exactly the date, but it's the winter of 1999. It

14 may be January or February.

15 Q. Of 1999?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that's you and Fatmir Limaj?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where was it taken?

20 A. To my recollection from the background of this picture, it's the

21 village of Lladrovc.

22 Q. And finally, 3244. Can you tell us who's in the picture, when it

23 was taken, where it was taken?

24 A. Again I will try to remember what is the time period. It's

25 autumn, summer of 1998, and from the background I think it was taken in

1 Klecke. It could be in Klecke.

2 Q. And just for the record, could you say who is in the picture,

3 please.

4 A. Hashim Thaqi is in the middle. On his right is me, and on his

5 left Fatmir Limaj.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think this is perhaps a convenient

8 time.

9 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn now and resume tomorrow at 2.15.

10 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, just before you do, may I raise one

11 quick matter. It relates to matters I raised earlier on, namely the

12 provenance of certain material said to be on the EDS system, and we have

13 in fact searched that today, and as it stands at the moment, under all

14 the various triggers that can be used - I'll specify them if necessary -

15 that material does not appear to be on the EDS at the moment.

16 MR. WHITING: I can only say, Your Honour, that I checked this

17 morning that it was on the EDS. I was told it was. Mr. Younis was told

18 it was. We have the e-mail traffic to confirm it, but of course we'll

19 double-check and consult with Defence counsel about it.

20 JUDGE PARKER: I'd be grateful. Thank you.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 31st day

23 of May, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.

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