1 Friday, 7 April 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 10.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. Brkic. The Chamber takes this

7 opportunity to remind you that you are still bound by the declaration you

8 made on Wednesday when you declared that you would tell the truth, the

9 whole truth and nothing else but the truth.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.

11 Yesterday we ended a little earlier, and given the situation the witness

12 was in, I suggested that we tender into evidence the Official Note

13 compiled in the police administration of Sisak on the 1st of April, and I

14 would be grateful if this document could be admitted into evidence. 1st

15 of April, 1991.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, this document was extensively

17 discussed yesterday, and it's an Official Note which was not signed by the

18 witness. He only agreed that he testified, but he couldn't -- he cannot

19 say whether it is really his -- we cannot prove that it is really his

20 testimony. It was summarised by a person who signed it, the document, not

21 -- it is not the witness's testimony.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Official Note. Are we talking about the

23 Official Note?

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, we are talking about that Official Note from

25 1992, April 1992.

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I suggest that the

2 Official Note compiled in the police administration in April 1992 and was

3 translated into English by the Prosecution - it also has a B/C/S version -

4 I suggest that this be tendered into evidence. Naturally, the Trial

5 Chamber will decide on the sort of weight that should be attached to this

6 document, and I'd also like to point out that the number on this document

7 is R0184396.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

9 Do you have anything to say on that Ms. Richterova?

10 MS. RICHTEROVA: No. I already stated that I object to tendering

11 this document into evidence.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The document is admitted into evidence. May

13 it please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The Exhibit number is 00290.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Does that dispose of the matter of

16 yesterday's witness? My question was are we done with matters relating to

17 the witness who testified yesterday?

18 MS. RICHTEROVA: No. I have a few questions for re-examination,

19 which we didn't -- we didn't -- we weren't able to start it yesterday.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, you're going to re-examine this

21 witness and --

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: Just very briefly.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Very well then. Proceed.

24 WITNESS: JOSIP JOSIPOVIC [Resumed]

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

1 Re-examination by Ms. Richterova:

2 Q. Mr. Josipovic, yesterday on cross-examination you testified that

3 Momcilo Kovacevic and Stevo Radjunovic would receive orders from Knin.

4 It's page 64 of your testimony from yesterday, when Defence counsel asked

5 you about the differences in your statement, and you stated that you do

6 not remember that Martic would -- you said that --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your opposite member is on his feet.

8 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I have an objection I would

10 like to raise, Your Honour. The witness was only answering the questions

11 put to him by the Defence as to whether the statements shown to him and

12 that were provided to the Prosecution stated what has been quoted.

13 Defence counsel's questions were quite different. The witness didn't

14 testify about this matter in response to Defence counsel's questions, and

15 if a question is phrased in this manner, the sense of Defence counsel's

16 initial question is being distorted.

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I'm going to cite exactly what --

18 what he said yesterday, and I just seek clarification to his answer from

19 yesterday. The witness said: "I don't remember having said that

20 Radjunovic and Kovacevic would go to Knin, but I don't remember that

21 Kovacevic and Radjunovic went to receive orders, but they would receive

22 orders from Knin, from Martic."

23 This is what he said yesterday to Defence counsel's question, and

24 I am just now going to ask a question how -- or how he learned that they

25 -- these two men received orders from -- from Martic. It's a legitimate

1 question.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any reply, Mr. Milovancevic?

3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 There's nothing I would like to add.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The objection is overruled.

6 You may proceed, Ms. Richterova.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA:

8 Q. Mr. Josipovic, you testified yesterday that Kovacevic and

9 Radjunovic received orders from Knin, from Martic. Can you tell us, how

10 do you know that they received orders?

11 A. Yes. I heard this from the Serbs when they spoke to each other,

12 from the Serbs who were guarding us, who were with us. This is what we

13 heard when they discussed matters among themselves.

14 Q. Another question is to your answer which we can read on the page

15 65, when Kovacevic and Radjunovic were relieved of their duties. Do you

16 know whether either of these men were ever investigated or prosecuted

17 after they were relieved of their duties?

18 A. No, they weren't.

19 Q. You also stated that there was -- they -- that they returned. Did

20 they return back to their duties? Was there a time when they returned to

21 their duties?

22 A. Yes, they did. After they had been replaced by the JNA and the

23 military police. A few days had gone by, and they then returned to their

24 posts, to their previous positions. They had the authority that they had

25 before, and they enforced the law.

1 Q. My last question relates what you testified on page 56. The

2 Defence counsel asked you about the night when the bridge was destroyed

3 and whether -- does that date mean anything to you, and you replied that

4 the day the bridge was destroyed, that shells were hitting houses, the

5 road, the church. Can you explain little bit more what -- what happened?

6 Who did the shelling?

7 A. The shelling came from the Bosnian side, on the other side of the

8 River Una. It was the Serbs who were shelling the area; the army, the

9 JNA.

10 Q. And you also said that cannons were firing at the church. Do you

11 know what happened to this church?

12 A. Yes. It was hit. The tower was hit several times, and a tank

13 opened fire on the church.

14 Q. And did you see it at the time when the -- the shelling took

15 place, or did you see just the result of the shelling?

16 A. Yes, I saw the result of the shelling.

17 Q. When was it, approximately, when you saw what happened to the

18 church?

19 A. It was perhaps on the 16th or 17th. Since I was imprisoned on the

20 15th, on the 16th and 17th we had already started doing our work, and

21 that's when I saw what had happened to the church and to the other houses

22 and buildings.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: I don't have further questions.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Richterova.

1 Judge.

2 Questioned by the Court:

3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. Good morning, Witness. I'm sorry to have to

4 take you back to these events with the two dead bodies of Antun Knezevic

5 and Zeljko Abaza. May I ask you the following questions for

6 clarification: You named persons who, as you said, were present when you

7 were ordered to load these two bodies on a truck. This is page 3318, line

8 4. You were asked who were they, and then you said: "I mean the Serbs,

9 because there was Stevo Radjunovic, Momcilo Kovacevic, Mirko Sarac, Milan

10 Petrovic, Djordje Ratkovic, Djuro Jerinic, Marjan Prvalo, all Serbs."

11 Then you added a name, Mladen Pozar.

12 Now, my question is do you remember who of these ordered you to

13 load the two dead bodies on the truck? This would be my first question.

14 A. One of the names is incorrect. The last name, Mladen Pozar. It's

15 not Mladen, it's Misa Pozar.

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And who of them ordered you this? Who spoke to

17 you before the bodies were loaded on the truck?

18 A. Stevo Ratkovic and Momcilo Kovacevic. Mirko Sarac was also

19 present, as well as Milan Petrovic and the others whom I have already

20 named.

21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Now you said Stevo Ratkovic, but in the minutes

22 that we have is Stevo Radjunovic and Djordje Ratkovic. Can you clarify?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Stevo Radjunovic or Djordje Ratkovic?

25 A. Yes. I -- I had Stevo Radjunovic in mind. It was a slip of the

1 tongue again.

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And now who took these bodies then really on the

3 truck? Do you remember that?

4 A. No, I don't really remember that. I couldn't say who loaded the

5 bodies onto the truck. I know that they did that, Sarac, Petrovic,

6 Radjunovic, and the others. That's what I mean when I say I know that

7 these people loaded them onto the truck.

8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Then when you arrived at that bridge, you stated

9 yesterday: "I was ordered to throw them off the bridge, but we were so

10 exhausted that we were not able to lift the bodies. So these Serbs,

11 including Mirko Sarac and Milan Petrovic, and all the others, they took

12 the bodies and threw them."

13 So, again, who first told you to take them from the truck, and who

14 took these bodies then from the truck? Do you maybe remember in detail?

15 A. Yes. When we arrived at the bridge, Sarac Mirko and Milan

16 Petrovic were there. And they are the people who carried out the act

17 then.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Who then ordered you to go to the other side of

19 the bridge's fence in order to kill you and was stopped then by a patrol?

20 Who was that?

21 A. Sarac and Petrovic.

22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And did I understand you correctly that you were

23 two persons who were supposed to step on the other side of this fence; and

24 if so, who was the other one?

25 A. Yes, you're right. The other person was Mico Coric.

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I beg your pardon. Mr. Josipovic, I'd like to

3 ask you questions continuing, concerning Antun and Zeljko. I'd like to

4 find out from you when is the last time that you saw the two of them

5 alive, and who were they with and what was happening?

6 A. The last time I saw them alive was that night when we were beaten.

7 I don't know what the time was. It was perhaps around 3.00 or half past

8 three. That was the last time I saw them alive. When I fell into a coma,

9 when I lost consciousness, I then came to my senses, I heard Mico Coric

10 crying out that they were going to kill them when they took us out again.

11 They poured water over us, and they then ordered us to load these bodies

12 onto a tractor trailer. It was about 3.00 or half past three, I think.

13 I'm not quite sure.

14 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much. Now, you received a number

15 of beatings. Did you receive injuries as a result of these beatings?

16 Please tell us about the injuries, and if you're able to, show us the

17 injuries.

18 A. Yes. I received injuries. My jaw was broken, dislocated. Then

19 they hit me on the head with an axe, so you can see the scar here. We

20 couldn't shave. We couldn't change our clothes. There was some doctor

21 there, I can't remember what his name was, but he claimed to be some sort

22 of a doctor, and he treated us, warmed our kidneys up, et cetera. And he

23 had some sort of a machete to cut the hedges with. On that occasion,

24 since we told him we didn't even have the time to shave or the possibility

25 of shaving and our beards had grown very long, he said that Ustashas

1 didn't wear beards and that he would shave us with that machete. And on

2 that occasion he cut me under the neck, and then our skin was peeled off

3 with a military boot, with the hard part of a military boot. That's what

4 he did.

5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: How did your jaw come to be broken?

6 A. They beat us. And I don't know how this happened. I was kicked

7 in the side, or from the side.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Who was doing the kicking and the beating at

9 this stage?

10 A. Sarac, Petrovic, Ratkovic, Jerinic, all the others I have already

11 mentioned, and there are others whose names I can't remember.

12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: This is a very simple question, but for my own

13 education, Mr. Josipovic, what is a howitzer? Please explain to me.

14 A. A howitzer. Well, it's a -- it's a sort of cannon. It has a

15 fairly long range.

16 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I am very grateful to you. Thank you. You

17 mentioned in your evidence a captain who went to see Mico Coric or his

18 mother. Now, the record says captain first class. What was the name of

19 that captain, for the record?

20 A. I can tell you the name, but could I avoid mentioning the name,

21 because I'd like to avoid problems in the future.

22 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well.

23 MS. RICHTEROVA: We can go into private session if -- so it

24 wouldn't be displayed publicly.

25 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much, Ms. Richterova.

1 May the Chamber go into private session, please.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we satisfied that that protective measure will

3 satisfy the witness's requirements?

4 MS. RICHTEROVA: It will be erased from public documents, but of

5 course the witness still can refuse to answer this question.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But we will find out when we are in private

7 session.

8 May the Chamber please move into private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: You mentioned towards the early part of your

9 evidence Serb renegades, and you said that they were waiting and weapons

10 were unloaded from a helicopter and put into trucks and other passenger

11 vehicles that had been seized earlier. From whom were they seized, under

12 what circumstances, and when? Are you able to say? Please tell us.

13 A. Yes. Those vehicles belonged to the former Electra company. They

14 were the property of Electra and of the Croatian forestry company. And

15 there were some other privately owned vehicles. I'm not sure who they

16 belonged to, who they were seized from.

17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: How did they come to be seized? Can you say?

18 A. Quite simply, they worked at the time in such companies. They had

19 such jobs, and they just helped themselves to those vehicles.

20 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: When you say "they," who?

21 A. Well, naturally I'm referring to these rebellious Serbs, the

22 Serbs.

23 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well. Thank you. And this is the last

24 question: You had mentioned the Ugljevik in Bosnia, and you mentioned

25 that you saw special police units, and you mentioned the word "blue."

1 What significance does that term "blue" have there?

2 A. I don't know what that means. I don't know what its meaning is,

3 but while I was working on the bridge, while I was repairing the bridge, I

4 saw such insignia on both sides. They'd go from Bosnia to Croatia, and

5 then they would return from Croatia into Bosnia.

6 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Josipovic.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Josipovic. I've got just

8 a few questions. In your statement of 2000, you related an incident when

9 you asked for permission to go to your home from Mateljak, and he refused

10 and somebody gave you permission to go, and in that paragraph you said

11 that your mother was very scared when you got to her home and the

12 villagers told you that they saw JNA helicopters landing close by. And

13 then you said: "JNA was written on the helicopter. A lot of weapons were

14 unloaded from the helicopter and loaded into a civilian truck from the

15 Electra company. Villagers also saw that the truck transported the

16 weapons to the neighbouring Serb villages of Zivaja and Sas."

17 My question to you is: When you say a lot of weapons were

18 unloaded from the helicopter and loaded into a civilian truck, are you

19 telling us something that you saw with your eyes?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is a jerrycan? I'm sorry, I don't know this

22 thing.

23 A. Well, it's a can in which fuel is kept.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And again in your statement of 2000, just out of an

25 abundance of caution, at page 1, for instance, there is a reference in the

1 sixth paragraph to HDZ party, and further down there is a reference to HZD

2 party. Are those one and the same thing or two different parties?

3 A. No. It must be a typing error; it's one and the same party.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Now, I'm sorry to have to

5 take you back to some of the questions that were asked by Judge Nosworthy

6 on my right. You referred in your evidence to a number of insignia. You

7 talked of White Eagles, and you talked of Ugljevik special police units

8 blue, worn by men from Bosnia to help by taking their part. What I want

9 to ask from you is: Are you able to tell us what each of these insignia

10 signified? Which unit it belonged to, in other words.

11 A. At that time, I did not know what the insignia meant, but I did

12 see them, I know that.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You say at that time you did not know. Do you now

14 know?

15 A. Today, perhaps, yes, I might know something about it.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like to share your knowledge?

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear clearly.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter did not hear you. Can you say that

19 again?

20 A. Yes, I will.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please do.

22 A. It seemed to me as if they were White Eagles. There were two

23 eagles. As far as I know, White Eagles -- the White Eagles were a kind of

24 Special Purpose Unit.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You also -- one of the writings that you referred

1 to was indeed "Special Police Units." Not "Purpose," but Special Police

2 Units. Is there a difference or -- yes, is there a difference between

3 Special Police Units and Special Purpose Units?

4 A. No. That's just what I think. It's one and the same, in essence.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: So -- do I understand you to be saying the White

6 Eagles were worn -- were badges worn by the Special Purpose Units? Is

7 that what you're saying?

8 A. Yes, that's what I'm saying.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And do you know whether the Special Purpose Units

10 belonged to the JNA or to a TO or to ZNG, or what?

11 A. The only thing I know is that they did not belong to the ZNG,

12 because the ZNG was on the Croatian side. But who they belonged to,

13 whether it was the JNA or the Chetniks, I don't know. It was difficult

14 for me to distinguish between them and to know who was who. They were all

15 Chetniks, basically. They all called themselves Chetniks regardless of

16 what unit they belonged to and everything else.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I believe you would say the same thing about the

18 sign blue and the sign Ugljevik.

19 A. Yes. Yes, I would say the same.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Josipovic.

21 Any questions arising from the questions by the Bench,

22 Ms. Richterova?

23 MS. RICHTEROVA: No. Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Richterova.

25 Mr. Milovancevic, any questions?

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Just one very brief question,

2 Your Honours, in connection with blue Ugljevik.

3 Further cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:

4 Q. Does the witness know that Ugljevik is a place between Bijeljina

5 and Tuzla, and this is quite far away from Hrvatska Dubica? Does the

6 witness know that?

7 A. No. No, I don't know where Plavi Ugljevik is at all.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I have no other questions.

9 Thank you, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

11 Mr. Josipovic, thank you so much for coming to testify. This

12 brings us to the end of your testimony. You are now excused. You may

13 stand down. Thank you very much.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you call the next witness, may we just sort

16 of agree what times we're going to stay in court now that we started a

17 little late. I would propose that we sit until half past eleven, take a

18 break to 12.00, sit from 12.00 to quarter to two. I was advised that that

19 is possible.

20 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I was always under the impression that

21 the maximum of the tapes is an hour and a half, but if the Court has been

22 advised otherwise and we can do that, that's fine with the Prosecution.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hear what you say. I was always under the

24 impression that the maximum the tape can take was one hour 15 minutes,

25 that's why we sit one hour 15 minutes, but I was advised by the court

1 official here that we can sit for one hour, 45 minutes.

2 MR. WHITING: That's fine with the Prosecution, then, that

3 schedule.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's fine with us too.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic. And thank

6 you very much.

7 May we call the next witness.

8 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour. Luka Brkic should come back to

9 start his cross-examination. His direct examination is finished.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before he's called, at what stage are we at?

11 Is he being cross-examined?

12 MR. BLACK: That's correct, Your Honour. I had just completed my

13 direct examination.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, may I be excused?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ms. Richterova, you are excused.

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 WITNESS: LUKA BRKIC [Resumed]

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. Brkic.

22 THE WITNESS: Good morning. [Interpretation] Good morning.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I remind you, Mr. Brkic, that on Wednesday you made

24 a declaration that you would tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

25 else but the truth. You remember that?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember very well.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are still bound by that declaration even today

3 to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. Okay?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Brkic.

6 Mr. Milovancevic.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Brkic.

10 A. Good day.

11 Q. I'm Defence counsel for Milan Martic. I will put some questions

12 to you. This stage of your testimony is called the cross-examination.

13 Please make a pause between my question and your answer so that the

14 interpretation service can do its job.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. Thank you. When answering questions put to you by the Prosecutor

17 when you testified here the day before yesterday, you stated that the

18 village guards in Skabrnja were established in June 1991; is that correct?

19 A. I can't tell you the precise date. I never did give you a precise

20 date, but, yes, that was the time.

21 Q. You also testified that fighting in Skabrnja broke out on the 18th

22 of November, 1991; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. Please wait until I finish my question before you begin answering

25 so that we don't overlap. That's for the interpretation. Thank you.

1 When answering you to the Prosecutor's questions, you said that

2 you received uniforms in Skabrnja about a month before the conflict that

3 broke out on the 18th of November, 1991. Is that how it was?

4 A. Yes, but I received it some three, four, or five days before the

5 conflict at the most. The others got them a bit sooner, but it was all

6 around that time, yes.

7 Q. When describing the uniforms you received, you said that they

8 originated from eastern Germany; that you had boots, a helmet, a uniform,

9 and shoulder straps.

10 A. Yes. That was it.

11 Q. It seems to me that with respect to the shoulder straps there's an

12 error in the transcript. Will you please tell me whether these shoulder

13 straps were part of a uniform that had a belt, a white belt, and two belts

14 over the shoulders?

15 A. Yes.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Wide, not white.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. When answering the Prosecutor's questions, you said there were 245

19 men under arms; is that correct?

20 A. No, I never put forward that number. There were three shifts,

21 three times seven is 21. Twenty-one people working in shifts.

22 Q. I may have been referring to another witness, excuse me. Please

23 tell me this: Are you aware of what number of armed men there were in

24 Skabrnja?

25 A. No. I wasn't aware of that. I only knew about the three shifts,

1 the Ambar. We changed shifts until the 18th. As for the numbers of other

2 units, I'm not aware of that.

3 Q. You say that you received uniforms; I assume a jacket, trousers,

4 boots, a helmet, shoulder straps. Do you know who gave you this equipment

5 and where it came from?

6 A. No. There were just rumours going around. It was a Termos

7 [phoen] Uniform from the Eastern Bloc. When that army was dissolved - it

8 used to be the army of East Germany - they probably got rid of this.

9 Q. You also said that together with the uniform you got -- you were

10 issued with a Kalashnikov, an automatic rifle.

11 A. Yes. I think three or four days before the conflict. Probably

12 three days rather than four.

13 Q. Do you know Marko Miljanic?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Can you tell us who he was and what his post was, what his duty

16 was in Skabrnja?

17 A. Marko Miljanic was a soldier in the former army. I think he was a

18 warrant officer. He left the former army, JNA, and became the commander

19 of the Skabrnja Independent Battalion.

20 Q. When he testified before this court as a witness, Marko Miljanic

21 said that he held this duty which you mentioned, commander of the Skabrnja

22 Independent Battalion, and that in this capacity he organised the defence

23 of Skabrnja, Nadin, Zemunik Gornji, Prkos, Zemunik Donji, Galovac, Gorica,

24 and Glavica, and he explained that this was about one-third of Zadar

25 municipality. Do you know anything about that?

1 A. Yes. All that is correct.

2 Q. Mr. Miljanic, as commander of the Skabrnja Battalion, spoke in his

3 statement about the fact that the unit in Skabrnja was divided into two

4 parts. One was led by Tasef Kardun [phoen], a car mechanic, and the other

5 by Milos Kara [phoen], an electrician. Is this correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Witness Miljanic also said that he had been in contact with Petar

8 Sale, the chief of the Crisis Staff of Zadar municipality, and with Ivica

9 Brzoja, the chief of the Zadar MUP, and they coordinated their activities.

10 Do you know anything about that?

11 A. Yes, I do. That's correct.

12 Q. Witness Miljanic, as the commander of the Skabrnja Battalion, the

13 commander of the Skabrnja Independent Battalion, explained that on 18th of

14 November, 1991, Mr. Glavic was the duty officer of the battalion. Do you

15 know that person?

16 A. Yes, but I don't know who was at that duty and whether anyone was.

17 All I know is about the guard that was called Ambar. That's all I know

18 about on that day. I don't know about anything else on that day.

19 Q. In your statement - or, rather, in his statement which he gave to

20 the Prosecution, Mr. Miljanic stated that on the 18th of November, 1991,

21 early in the morning on that day when the conflict broke out in Skabrnja,

22 Mr. Glavic was the duty officer of the battalion, and he told him that 50

23 per cent of the men were resting in a stacionar.

24 A. I don't know what that term means. There was a place near

25 Glavica. Whether that was it, I couldn't tell you.

1 Q. Can you tell us whether Skabrnja is on the road between Zadar and

2 Benkovac?

3 A. Yes. The Zadar-Benkovac road passes by Skabrnja. It doesn't go

4 through Skabrnja, but there's a road branching off the main road leading

5 into Skabrnja.

6 Q. Mr. Miljanic told us that there were 14 JNA barracks in Zadar,

7 including Zemunik airport. Do you know about that?

8 A. Yes, I know all about that, because I was a reserve soldier. So I

9 know about Sepurine and all the other barracks, yes.

10 Q. In the statement you gave to the Prosecutor the day before

11 yesterday, or your testimony, you said that after you were captured by the

12 JNA in Skabrnja, you were taken by truck to the Benkovac barracks; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Apart from these 14 barracks in Zadar, there were also a JNA

16 barracks in Benkovci?

17 A. Yes.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Benkovac, interpreter's correction.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. In the statement that you gave to the Prosecution in the year

21 2000, on the 20th and 22nd of September, 2000, in the B/C/S version, it's

22 page 3 --

23 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black is on his feet.

25 MR. BLACK: I apologise for the interruption. Just if the witness

1 could be provided a copy. If he's going to be directed to particular

2 passages, I think it would be helpful.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And if the Bench can also be advised where to look.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave,

5 we will provide you with the statement a little later. We've started our

6 cross-examination before the break and I didn't expect that. I won't show

7 the witness any material until we provide you with these copies. My

8 colleague from the Defence could go and fetch some copies of that

9 statement or we could do this after the break, as you wish.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you then delay your questions from that

11 statement until you've got those statements?

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

13 I'll make sure that I do not ask the witness any questions that would make

14 it necessary for him to refer to this particular statement. The questions

15 I'll put to him will be of a general kind.

16 Q. Witness, is it correct to say that around summer 1991 you set up

17 village guards in Skabrnja and you had a number of checkpoints there?

18 A. Yes. There were checkpoints there. There was one at the

19 entrance. That's the one that the three -- that our three groups manned,

20 and those groups came from that part, from the hamlet of Ambar.

21 Q. What was this checkpoint formed of?

22 A. Of a couple of men -- of several men. Passers-by would stop. If

23 you like, I can tell you what happened there. It's no problem.

24 Q. Did you ever let inhabitants pass through that checkpoint?

25 A. No. The troops used it too when they didn't want to use Martic's

1 road. When things turned ugly, the troops passed through. They probably

2 wanted to act in a provocative way to ensure that an attack was launched

3 as soon as possible.

4 Q. In addition to those checkpoints in Skabrnja, were there any

5 barricades erected on the main road?

6 A. No. There was a barricade on the main road, but in fact there

7 were three obstacles, three hedgehogs. They weren't obstructing the

8 movement of vehicles; they were by the road.

9 Q. You say metal hedgehogs.

10 A. Yes. They were made of rail tracks.

11 Q. Can you tell us what the purpose of these obstructions were?

12 A. Well, to slow down the traffic, if necessary. If it wasn't

13 necessary, the troops would obtain fuel from the air base and as no one

14 obstructed them, they used the road just like all the other normal

15 citizens.

16 Q. You mentioned an air base.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us whether you have the Zemunica air base in mind?

19 A. Yes, the Zemunik air base in mind.

20 Q. And can you tell us how far that air base was from Skabrnja?

21 A. Eight kilometres.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Srednja Porta, as said by the witness.

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. In response to a question from the Prosecutor and in your

25 statements, you also mentioned the shelling of Skabrnja. You mentioned

1 Napalm bombs and cassette bombs.

2 A. Yes, that's correct. And there was someone called Sinisa and some

3 sort of a girl. They must have been in love but they wrote something down

4 on a shell -- on the shell of a cluster bomb.

5 Q. When did these cluster bombs fall in Skabrnja?

6 A. To the right of the church, in front of the church, in the field.

7 That's where these cluster bombs fell.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The witness didn't

9 say cassette bomb, he said cluster bomb.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You said those cluster bombs fell by the church itself. There are

12 two churches in Skabrnja, though.

13 A. That's the main church, St. Mary's, at the entrance.

14 Q. Have I understood you correctly, the cluster bomb fell by the main

15 church in the centre of the village?

16 A. Yes. It started -- they started falling in front of the church.

17 I saw that myself.

18 Q. Can you tell us who was killed by the cluster bombs?

19 A. No one at the time, because the houses weren't affected.

20 Q. In relation to that church in the centre and the houses that were

21 in the vicinity of the church, how far from the houses did that bomb fall?

22 A. Well, it fell near the houses or one house that was near the

23 church, but that's where certain parts of the cluster bombs fell, and all

24 the other parts fell in front of the church, so to speak.

25 Q. Were there any combat positions there?

1 A. No, there weren't any combat positions there. Perhaps they

2 thought that there were some mortars located there, but that wasn't the

3 case. Perhaps that's why these bombs were launched.

4 Q. In what area, what sort of area was this cluster bomb used?

5 A. Well, in an area of about a hundred or 200 metres. That was the

6 area it was used in.

7 Q. And no one was hurt?

8 A. No, no one was hurt.

9 Q. You mentioned mortars.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You said that you received automatic rifles in addition to helmets

12 and uniforms. Was there any -- was there any other weapons apart from the

13 mortars in Skabrnja?

14 A. No. There were only those mortars. They disappeared on that day.

15 They went to Donje Rastane. They were taken to Donje Rastane. They were

16 there before, but on that day in the evening they disappeared. I myself

17 don't know where they were taken to.

18 Q. How many mortars were there? Who used them and who took them

19 away?

20 A. I couldn't tell you who the crews were. There were two, three --

21 there were three mortars. And there was ZIS that didn't have its shell.

22 It was by the church of St. Mary's, the second, smaller church in Ambar.

23 Q. What is a ZIS?

24 A. That is a one-barrelled weapon that is used to attack a tank or a

25 moving vehicle, anything of that kind. It is used instead of a hand-held

1 launcher. It's a recoilless cannon, one could say.

2 Q. You said you were on guard the night before the attack.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said that you were on a shift. You were replaced by another

5 shift that consisted of seven or eight men.

6 A. Seven men.

7 Q. You said that you returned from the checkpoint, you went to your

8 brother's house, you took off your uniform, and you had civilian clothes

9 on under your uniform. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. When you left your guard post, did you take your automatic rifle

12 with you?

13 A. Yes, I had it on me.

14 Q. These men who replaced you at the guard post or at the checkpoint

15 in the morning when the conflict broke out, were they also wearing

16 uniforms, and did they have automatic rifles too?

17 A. I don't know. They probably had uniforms, because they replaced

18 me at 3.00 -- early in the morning; 3.00 precisely. So they were probably

19 wearing uniforms.

20 Q. When fire was opened in Skabrnja, you said that you were in your

21 brother's house, you were sleeping, you heard some sort of a shell that

22 fell behind the house. You then went out to see what was happening. Is

23 that what happened?

24 A. Yes, that's what happened.

25 Q. Are you aware of the fact that a JNA unit arrived in Skabrnja that

1 morning? It stopped in front of the entrance to the village by the hamlet

2 of Ambar, and the officer heading the unit got out of a tank with the

3 intention of speaking to those present, and in order to ensure that the

4 population who were armed surrender. Are you aware of that fact?

5 A. No, I'm not.

6 Q. Did you perhaps subsequently hear that this officer was -- had the

7 surname Stefanovic, after he had got out of the tank to negotiate about

8 finding a peaceful solution to the situation in Skabrnja, he was killed?

9 Another soldier stepped in to help him when he fell, and that soldier was

10 also killed on that occasion. It's only then that an all-out armed

11 conflict broke out. Do you know anything about this, about the second

12 lieutenant who was killed?

13 A. No, I don't know anything about this.

14 Q. When you were taken to the barracks in the Benkovac after having

15 been imprisoned -- after having been arrested, you said you were driven

16 there by a JNA soldier who was a Croat.

17 A. No. I said that we were taken there in a bus. This person was

18 probably from Rastevic but it's not necessarily so.

19 Q. Thank you for that explanation. In response to a question put to

20 you by the Prosecution, do you remember having said that this JNA soldier

21 who was in a unit that had arrived in Skabrnja said that he didn't know or

22 that the soldiers didn't know that an attack would be launched?

23 A. That's what he told me when I was returning. He said he was going

24 to Benkovac after Skabrnja had fallen, after everything that happened

25 happened.

1 Q. Thank you. When you heard the shooting, you said that you crawled

2 out of the house, you saw that fire was being opened from machine-guns,

3 and you saw tanks.

4 A. Yes, that's correct. I saw some going over a field. I saw this

5 with my own eyes.

6 Q. You said that at one point in time you climbed onto the roof of

7 the house to have a better view of the situation, and at the time some

8 sort of a mortar shell fell on the roof.

9 A. Yes, that's correct. It was a small mortar shell. It broke some

10 sort of a window. It fell in front of the house. Later, I saw the case

11 of the shell.

12 Q. As far as I can remember, you said that you had a helmet at the

13 time.

14 A. Yes. When I went out, I had a helmet on.

15 Q. How did you observe the situation from the roof? Did you have to

16 move the tiles?

17 A. No. There's a big balcony door. There's a sloping roof. I

18 opened the balcony door. There's a small wall in front of you. I saw a

19 few men down below. I then returned back, and that's when the shell hit

20 the roof.

21 Q. When describing the tanks that entered the village, you said that

22 they were coming from the direction of the village of Ambar, from the

23 entrance to the village where the first church is located.

24 A. Yes. That's the main entrance into the village. There were

25 others approaching from Polje. There were three of them. Two were going

1 to Sveta Luka. A third one wanted to head directly towards my house but

2 it got stuck in the mud. And there was another one coming from a field

3 called Dunjevac. That reached the transformer station and joined the

4 first tank.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness. You said that when you saw these tanks and

6 since they were coming from the direction of the hamlet of Ambar, which is

7 at the very beginning of the village, you said that some individuals were

8 killed in that first attack, some individuals who were manning the

9 checkpoint and who had replaced you. Do you remember having said that?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Do you know whether they opened fire on JNA troops that were

12 arriving in the village that morning?

13 A. Well, I don't know. There was intensive shooting. At the time

14 certain facilities were on fire. It was terrible. There was a lot of

15 screaming, a lot of noise. You couldn't hear anything.

16 Q. This is how you describe all the noise and all the chaos, that you

17 said that you heard some people shouting out, "Get hold of him."

18 A. Well, yes, that's correct. It wasn't that far away. It was

19 about a hundred metres or 130 metres away. So it was possible for people

20 to speak to each other.

21 Q. Thank you. You also said that you came down from the roof and

22 those men at the first checkpoint withdrew to where you were located.

23 A. No. That was the second group that came to see me and see what

24 they should do. That's what was said.

25 Q. Thank you for that explanation. Did you tell those people that

1 they should go to the road where it would be easier to defend the village?

2 A. No. I warned them because the tank was about 30 metres away. It

3 was barely possible to cross the road without being killed. They then

4 left. I told them to flee from the village. I said if you're at risk,

5 there's nothing you can do. It will all be over.

6 Q. Well, why didn't you tell them to go to the centre of the village,

7 wasn't it dangerous in the centre of the village too?

8 A. No. These men from Rasovljeva and Glava hadn't yet arrived.

9 These were tanks that were going through Marinovac Cesta. There was a

10 second entrance there, another entrance there.

11 Q. You said that you then went to your brother's house to see what

12 sort of situation the people in the cellar were in. You mentioned 16 or

13 17 men.

14 A. Yes. There were neighbours, the neighbours' children, there were

15 three neighbours there, there were small babies, children who were about 8

16 or 9 or 10 years old.

17 Q. Thank you. At one point in the statement you gave to the

18 Prosecutor, there's a sentence that says: "The attack resumed at around

19 11.00." Do you remember that brief sentence?

20 A. Yes. There was a brief lull of 15 to 20 minutes. It was

21 difficult to measure the time. One didn't look at one's watch to see when

22 it started and when it ended.

23 Q. You said that when you got down from the attic where you were

24 observing the situation, you went down into the basement and you saw those

25 people there. Among them were the people whose last name was Burlica [as

1 interpreted]. You also said there was a light machine-gun, two automatic

2 rifles, an automatic rifle, and as you said, a shotgun in the basement.

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Who was carrying these weapons? Who had brought them there?

5 A. The shotgun, that's a hunting rifle, was already there. The

6 Kalashnikov was mine, I had brought it there. The light machine-gun --

7 the submachine-gun belonged to Neno Gurlica who had -- to whom it had been

8 issued before that. Pero Gurlica had a weapon we referred to as the

9 Serbian.

10 Q. That's an automatic rifle?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I recall you explained to the Prosecutor in the course of your

13 testimony that you counselled the people who were in the basement,

14 Marijan, Neno, and Petar Gurlica to change clothes.

15 A. Yes, that's how it was. I did have some life experience, and I

16 assumed something bad might happen.

17 Q. I'll ask you the following: At that point in time, you were a

18 mature man. You were armed. Those three were also armed with serious

19 artillery weapons. When the JNA came along amid this general shooting,

20 you fled into the basement among the women and children. Did you do this

21 because you were afraid or because you thought the JNA would not harm

22 women and children?

23 A. I told them not to open fire. The tanks were close, and you

24 couldn't do anything to attack. Someone could get killed on the other

25 side, but we didn't dare shoot because the people in the basement might

1 have got killed. We didn't want to shoot because we wanted the others to

2 survive.

3 Q. You mentioned the advent of the tanks. Do you remember that two

4 or three days before the conflict in Skabrnja broke out a Special Purpose

5 Unit commanded by Djuro Zupan arrived in Skabrnja? There were 20 or 30

6 men armed with special anti-tank rockets, and their task was to destroy

7 the tank grouping in Veljun. Are you aware of that?

8 A. Yes, there was a small group of young men from Skabrnja for the

9 most part but they didn't have weapons. You could have parked your tanks

10 there and nothing would have happened to them.

11 Q. You said that you went down into the basement among the women,

12 children, and the other people there, that there was some 18 to 20 of you,

13 and that the soldiers came up to the house, banged on the door and

14 demanded that you open up.

15 A. Yes. They broke down the balcony door.

16 Q. Did they ask you whether you had weapons and did they find weapons

17 in the basement?

18 A. It was like this: When they were banging of the door, little Neno

19 had not yet managed to take off his boots. The other man had a tracksuit

20 on, he spent the whole winter in it, and that's how it came about that he

21 had to sleep in it, although it was cold. I went out and I told them

22 there were civilians inside. I asked them not to throw a hand grenade in.

23 They were threatening to do that, but they didn't. They ordered me to get

24 the ladder and pull it up so that he could go down if he wanted to. They

25 changed their mind about throwing the hand grenade in and then the women

1 and children started getting out.

2 Q. Does that mean that thanks to this situation the submachine-gun,

3 the two automatic rifles and the shotgun were not found?

4 A. I said that they should put the weapons in a visible place, and

5 they were able to see them. That's as far as the submachine-gun goes.

6 The other rifles remained hidden.

7 Q. When the army saw those weapons and when you got outside, you

8 explained that they ordered you men to lie down, and I assume they

9 searched you.

10 A. Yes. Yes, they did search us.

11 Q. You explained here in the course of your testimony that after that

12 the soldiers separated off the women and children and sent them towards

13 the edge of the village and that you and the Gurlicas were taken along

14 with the soldiers.

15 A. Yes, that's how it was.

16 Q. Describing your movements together with the soldiers, you provided

17 a detail and I'll remind you of it. You said a tank went in front. This

18 Captain Jankovic was going right next to the caterpillar tracks, so he was

19 taking shelter behind the tank.

20 A. Yes, absolutely. That's how it was.

21 Q. You say that you were right next to the captain, with your hands

22 up in the air, and the Gurlicas were behind you.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You also described, as far as I was able to understand you, that

25 there were one or two tanks behind you. Did I understand you correctly?

1 A. Yes. There were other tanks as well, and there was a combat

2 armoured vehicle, a BOV, which had an anti-aircraft machine-gun, a PAM, on

3 it. And there was also an armoured vehicle where ammunition is

4 transported on caterpillar tracks. It's used to transport ammunition.

5 And all this was right next to us.

6 Q. You also explained that your capture, your exit from the basement,

7 the separating off of the men from the women and children, and your

8 departure towards the church with Captain Jankovic, that all this took

9 place around noon.

10 A. Yes, and it went on until first dusk, around 6.00. You couldn't

11 look around. I couldn't even put my hands down. It was only at around

12 6.00 p.m. that I asked if I could put my hands down.

13 Q. In your statement, you also said that in this situation, walking

14 alongside the captain who had previously saved you, the four of you were

15 walking behind the tanks, that you approached the church, and at one point

16 somebody fired or, rather, opened fire on the tank.

17 A. Yes. It was three bullets, not more.

18 Q. You also explained that at one point the captain pulled you back

19 and said, "Take shelter. Your own people will kill you."

20 A. Yes, that's how it was.

21 Q. Throughout this time you were with the tanks and with this

22 captain, and you were observing the situation fully.

23 A. Yes. I saw more than Captain Jankovic did.

24 Q. Before the break I'll put another question. There was a

25 Prosecution witness here, Mr. Miljanic, the commander of the Skabrnja

1 Battalion, and he said that at one point he wanted heroically to hit the

2 tank with a rocket launcher but that the tank was surrounded with women

3 and children and that they were a human shield, whereas you are saying

4 that the women and children were separated off right away and sent towards

5 the hamlet of Ambar at the edge of Skabrnja.

6 A. He might have been referring to the other tanks going from Biljane

7 towards Glavica. I saw those as well. I had even been there at Oscar's

8 for three days. There were lots of soldiers there before the attack.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The other member is on his feet, Mr. Milovancevic.

10 MR. BLACK: I just wonder if I could have a reference because

11 we're trying as best we can to follow along in Mr. Miljanic's testimony,

12 but what I see are references civilians, not women and children. So I

13 would like to have a reference, what Defence counsel is referring to,

14 please.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] This is page 2876, line 10, the

17 testimony of Witness Miljanic, Prosecution witness.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that 2876 page, line 10?

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That's

21 correct.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that be a convenient moment, and we can sort

23 out those --

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will take a short break,

1 come back at 12.00. Court adjourned.

2 --- Recess taken at 11.31 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.02 p.m.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Q. Witness, we will continue your cross-examination now. Let me

7 remind both of us once again that we should make a pause between question

8 and answer for the sake of the interpretation.

9 When describing the arrival of the soldiers in your brother's

10 house where you were in the basement, you said that you heard the soldiers

11 breaking down the door outside on the terrace, I think you said.

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Q. With reference to the question put to you as to the ethnic

16 affiliation of the soldiers, you explained they were regular soldiers,

17 conscripts serving their military service. You even mentioned a lad from

18 Zagreb, whereas in the statement you gave to the Prosecutor, on page 4 in

19 B/C/S, the fifth passage from the top, you say that among the soldiers

20 breaking into your house you heard some speaking Albanian. Did you say

21 that?

22 A. Yes, but the one who was speaking Albanian was down on the road.

23 A lot of things in the statement are not in the place where they should be

24 but a bit before or after. So it should be fixed a little bit.

25 Q. Could one say that in that JNA unit which was in Skabrnja at the

1 time there were soldiers of all ethnicities?

2 A. Yes. I can assume that. Or, rather, you could observe it by the

3 way they spoke. As I said, there was one from Zagreb. He was a conscript

4 doing his military service. And when I ended up in Knin, I heard a lot of

5 others who were similarly serving their army service.

6 Q. You described what was going on around the church, and you said

7 that on the 18th of November, 1991, the fighting went on until dusk and

8 that then you went towards Ambar hamlet at the outskirts of the village.

9 A. Yes. Please don't skip over things and then stray off the main

10 topic. It -- shall we talk about not just the real soldiers, the regular

11 soldiers, but all those who were present?

12 Q. Witness, I will put those questions to you which I consider

13 important.

14 A. Very well. Thank you.

15 Q. You have been examined in detail and given a lot of explanations,

16 so I will only ask about those things which in the opinion of Defence

17 should be further explained.

18 You said that in the evening of the 18th you were taken to the JNA

19 barracks in Benkovac. Is that how it was?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You explained in detail how this happened, and I will remind you

22 of a part of your statement where you say -- and that's on page 5, the

23 last passage on page 5 -- you said that on the road you briefly stopped in

24 Biljane where you saw a huge pile of weapons which you believed was

25 confiscated from Skabrnja. Is that what you said?

1 A. Yes. That was in the first statement I gave.

2 Q. You speak of a big pile of weapons captured in Skabrnja. What was

3 in that pile? Did you see that?

4 A. Well, it was the classical kind of infantry weaponry.

5 Q. You described how after you had spent a night in the barracks in

6 Benkovac, after breakfast you were taken to another barracks, this time in

7 Knin. Was that the JNA barracks?

8 A. Yes. It was a JNA barracks called Juzni Logor.

9 Q. You said that you were in the prison premises, which you described

10 in detail, and can you tell us whether you know whether this was a

11 military prison?

12 A. Yes. It used to be a military prison. Later on, all the

13 formations that were around were there. I didn't have time to check that.

14 Later on, I learned that there were all sorts of people there; Martic's

15 men and others, and I don't know who stayed there for how long, but I know

16 that there was a guard.

17 Q. Well, my question was as follows: You were captured by the JNA,

18 taken by the JNA first to the barracks in Benkovac and from there to the

19 barracks in Knin, and it was they who put you in prison there. Is that

20 how it was?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You also explained that after a certain time you were taken from

23 the Juzni Logor prison in the barracks to the place where you were to make

24 -- to make railings on windows in Knin hospital.

25 A. Yes. A number of us went there; Blaskic, Sinovcic, some people

1 from Drnis and the surrounding area, a man called Lacic.

2 Q. When you arrived in the old hospital where you were working on the

3 bars of the windows, were there people there?

4 A. Yes, people who were already in prison.

5 Q. And finally, you explained that you were exchanged in May.

6 A. On the 30th of May precisely.

7 Q. 1992?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When you described the area where you built bars or for which you

10 built bars, you said that people called it Martic's prison.

11 A. Yes, that's what they called it. There was some other fortress,

12 but I don't know whether that's the prison or some other prison, but they

13 called this the old hospital or Martic's prison. I didn't hear any other

14 name.

15 Q. Did you ever see Martic in that prison?

16 A. No, I never saw Mr. Martic there. Perhaps he was standing next to

17 me, but I wouldn't have recognised him, I wouldn't have known him.

18 Q. Thank you. At the end of the statement that you gave to the

19 Prosecution in the year 2000, you said that you saw Mladic in the prison

20 in Knin on two occasions.

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. When you described your second meeting with him or second time you

23 saw him, you said that was at the beginning of March 1992, and Mladic was

24 there with the chief of staff, Vukovic.

25 A. Yes. There were a number of them, but they told me that this

1 person was Vukovic, but I didn't know those officers. I had never seen

2 those officers before. They arrived by helicopter. They were wearing

3 leather clothes, leather jackets. I remember that Mladic had a cherry

4 coloured torch that he would play with.

5 Q. You said that on that occasion Mladic was there with Vukovic, the

6 officer Vukovic and other officers. They were inspecting the situation,

7 and they were involved in the exchange of prisoners, but after Vukovic

8 arrived things proceeded more easily. Is that what you said?

9 A. Yes, that is what was stated.

10 Q. I don't know whether you knew the officer Mladic, but according to

11 all the information that is available, according to all the evidence, all

12 the information that Defence has, Vukovic was the commander of the 9th

13 Corps up until 1992, and Colonel Mladic was his chief of staff, but you

14 are saying that in March 1992, the chief of staff was involved in an

15 inspection with the general. Have you confused something?

16 A. No. He even came to boast in front of us. He asked us, "Do you

17 know who we are?" "I'm General Mladic." He came to boast in front of us.

18 So when he arrived there, he already held the rank of general.

19 Q. And you say that he came with his chief of staff, Officer Vukovic?

20 A. That's what I was told. I didn't know Mr. Vukovic. A certain man

21 called Bracic knew all the officers in Knin and he told me that this

22 person was Vukovic. He also pointed out some other individuals to me, but

23 I haven't thought about this for a long time, so I don't remember the

24 names very well now.

25 Q. Thank you. With regard to weapons and equipment that the

1 battalion in Skabrnja had, the battalion that was under the command of

2 Miljanic, there is information according to which, during two days of

3 combat in Skabrnja, on the first day two soldiers were killed whereas five

4 were wounded, and on the second day two other soldiers were killed and

5 five were wounded, and JNA soldiers are being referred to. There is even

6 written evidence that on that occasion in Skabrnja a total of 14 mortars

7 were captured, the calibre of which was between 60 and 120 millimetres.

8 On one day seven mortars were captured and on the second day another

9 seven. 50 automatic rifles were captured, 37 hand grenades were captured,

10 a recoilless cannon was seized, seven cases of ammunition the calibre of

11 which was 7.62 were seized. That would be ammunition for an automatic

12 rifle. Do you know anything about this quantity of weapons seized in

13 Skabrnja?

14 A. As far as the mortars are concerned, the figure is not correct.

15 If there were any mortars, there were no more than six or seven mortars,

16 if there were any at all. Everything else is superfluous.

17 Q. A minute ago you said that there were three of them; the commander

18 of the defence says that there were two.

19 A. I said that it's possible that there were seven of them.

20 Q. Please let me finish my question and then you will tell me what

21 you know. I'm not objecting to you, I'm just putting a question to you.

22 Mr. Miljanic gave evidence under oath and said that the men had no

23 uniforms, that they had nothing, that there were only two small mortars,

24 and you are now saying that there were perhaps six mortars. You said that

25 there were uniforms, helmets, belt supports, rifles. You're saying that

1 there was a Skabrnja battalion in existence. Whose battalion was this?

2 A. That was said at the very beginning; the Independent Skabrnja

3 Battalion. Marko Miljanic must have told you about its strength. And

4 then the mortars that have been referred to were taken to Donje Rastane,

5 and then from Donje Rastane they were taken to Crvena Luka, so on that day

6 even if there were two mortars, that was too many. So Marko Miljanic was

7 perhaps quite right in saying that there were two mortars there, but I

8 don't know about those two mortars.

9 MR. BLACK: Sorry to interrupt. Could I just have a reference to

10 that portion of Miljanic's testimony, please?

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to point out to my

12 learned colleague that this is the statement -- the written statement that

13 the Witness Miljanic gave to the Prosecution, and it also concerns his

14 evidence at this trial. The page is 2873. This concerns Miljanic's

15 evidence before this Chamber.

16 Q. Witness Miljanic also mentioned a minefield that had been laid in

17 the vicinity of the airport. Do you know anything about this?

18 A. The airport?

19 Q. In the direction of Dusevna hospital.

20 A. I don't know about this. He later participated in this or was

21 part of the engineer system. It was mined and that was done well. The

22 land strip was blown up and I think that a French person died on that

23 occasion. And that was quite late.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The building

25 mentioned was a mental hospital, not Dusevna hospital.

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Thank you, Witness. Another question concerns a written document

3 in which a colonel describes what he -- in which a lieutenant describes

4 what he found in the field in Skabrnja after the action in Skabrnja. He

5 mentions everything he found in Skabrnja, including sites where dead men

6 and women were found, whether in uniform or in civilian clothes, and he

7 mentions -- and he drew a sort of diagram, a sketch of Skabrnja. He

8 mentions the fact that in the centre of Skabrnja there was a large garage

9 with the inscription The Andrija Artukovic Weaponry Barracks. There were

10 weapons there, ammunition, hand grenades. Do you know anything about the

11 Andrija Artukovic barracks?

12 A. No, I don't. I think that this has been manipulated. I doubt

13 that anyone had a radio set of any kind at the time. Perhaps somebody had

14 a walkie-talkie but, I doubt that too. But that's possible. I'm sorry.

15 I apologise.

16 Q. I have one more question for you. As a man who in the late spring

17 and then summer and autumn, as a man who was in Croatia at the time, did

18 you hear anything about the JNA barracks being blocked in Croatia,? For

19 example, in Split, in Sibenik, in Sinj, in Zadar, in Karlovac, and before

20 that in Gospic, in Zagreb, in Varazdin, in Bjelovar, in Osijek, Sisak,

21 Slavonski Brod, Virovitica, later on in Vukovar? Have you heard anything

22 about these JNA barracks being under a blockade?

23 A. Well, the entire public knew something about that, so why would I

24 have to think about this in any particular way?

25 Q. Thank you. Witnesses who have appeared before this Chamber have

1 also testified that in Kijevo there were some Croatian armed forces.

2 We've heard this from you, that they were present in Drezni Grad, in

3 Rakovica, in Slunj, in Bacin, in Cerovljani, in Dubica, but the

4 headquarters under Mateljak's command was located in Hrvatska Dubica. I

5 have now mentioned a series of villages that Marko Miljanic mentioned they

6 were under his command. Do you know of any other places where there were

7 armed men?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Witness. Counsel for the Prosecution is on

10 his feet.

11 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. I apologise for the

12 interruption again. I'd like to have a cite for that, please, because I

13 think it misstates the evidence. I don't remember Mr. Miljanic saying

14 that he was in control in Slunj and Bacin and Dubica.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Naturally, Your Honour.

17 Mr. Miljanic didn't say that, nor did I. I was only quoting the testimony

18 of other witnesses who spoke about the situation in other villages, and at

19 the end I said that Mr. Miljanic spoke not only about Skabrnja but about

20 another six or seven villages in the municipality of Zadar. So I was very

21 precise. I don't know whether my learned colleague was following me well

22 and whether my words were correctly interpreted.

23 My question was as follows: In the course of evidence given by

24 various witnesses here, we have heard that there were Croatian armed

25 forces in Kijevo. The witness said that they were also present in

1 Skabrnja. Other witnesses said that they were present in Saborsko, Drezni

2 Grad, Rakovica, Slunj. Other witnesses, for example, the witness who was

3 here today, mentioned Bacin, Dubica, and Cerovljani and the headquarters

4 or the command, the main staff in Hrvatska Dubica, and Mateljak was in

5 command there.

6 MR. BLACK: Objection.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Black.

8 MR. BLACK: This strikes me as argument, Your Honour. This

9 witness has not testified about any of these places and it's unclear to me

10 what possible comment he could have on the rather lengthy question from

11 counsel. I'd ask that he put questions to the witness rather than argue

12 to the Chamber.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: That sounds like a legitimate objection,

14 Mr. Milovancevic. What do you have to say to that?

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, I

16 haven't put my question to the witness yet. My colleague interrupted me.

17 The introduction was rather lengthy, but my question is as follows:

18 Given --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't put your question yet. Let's finish with

20 your objection. My problem, and this is a problem of the Chamber, that

21 indeed you put very long sentences before you put your questions. Just

22 look at that line from page 44 from line 15 to line 25. You are saying --

23 it's just you speaking there. Then you put a question, and that question

24 seems to refer to everything that you have spoken about, and neither --

25 not the witness nor the Bench nor your opposite number understand what

1 your question relates to. Put questions to this witness, and if his

2 testimony differs with the testimony of other witnesses and you want to

3 put those to him, take them one by one. You've mentioned lots of villages

4 here.

5 Now, the objection is that the witness has not testified about

6 these villages. Just take these one by one, one sentence at a time, one

7 fact at a time. Then we will understand. There will be no confusion.

8 Please, Mr. Milovancevic.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Witness, I'll put a short question to you. I previously asked you

11 whether you had heard about JNA barracks being under blockade. Now you

12 have just told us about what you did in Skabrnja. Do you believe that you

13 participated in an armed rebellion?

14 A. No. This is how things were -- Your Honours, may I tell you what

15 the truth was about many things that you are confused about? I could do

16 that in a few words. It would be more rapid.

17 Q. Witness, you have answered my question. You said that you did not

18 participate in an armed rebellion, and that is enough for me. Thank you.

19 Given everything that took place in Skabrnja in November 1991, you

20 mentioned Yugoslavia and the Yugoslav People's Army. All of this took

21 place in your village, too, and you had helmets, rifles, uniforms, a staff

22 and an organisation. Was all this organised in such a manner so that you

23 could confront the federal army?

24 A. No. People -- they had already started capturing people.

25 Martic's people had already taken an excavator from a relative of mine. I

1 had to take him to Crvena Luka, which was full of police. They were

2 eating and drinking, I don't know what they were doing. I took the

3 excavator away without asking them for permission.

4 Q. Thank you. I have one more question for you and that will then

5 conclude my cross-examination. Are you aware of the fact that the

6 headquarters for Central and Northern Dalmatia, with its base in Zadar,

7 signed an agreement with the JNA at the beginning of October 1991 on

8 raising the blockade of all the barracks that had been placed under a

9 blockade in the area? Do you know anything about this agreement?

10 A. No, I don't.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Defence counsel

12 has no further questions for this witness. This concludes our

13 cross-examination.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

15 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I have a few questions.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black, please. I'm sorry.

17 MR. BLACK: No problem at all, Your Honour, thank you very much.

18 Re-examination by Mr. Black:

19 Q. Mr. Brkic, I just have a couple more questions for you. First,

20 you remember that as my colleague the Defence lawyer was putting questions

21 to you, he asked you about some JNA soldiers coming to the entrance to

22 Skabrnja, to Ambar, and asking the villagers whether they wanted to

23 surrender. Do you remember those questions that the Defence lawyer asked

24 you about?

25 A. No.

1 Q. I'll see if I can help you remember. The question was: "Are you

2 aware of the fact that a JNA unit arrived in Skabrnja that morning? It

3 stopped in front of the entrance to the village by the hamlet of Ambar,

4 and the officer heading the unit got out of a tank with the intention of

5 speaking to those present and in order to ensure that the population who

6 were armed surrendered. Are you aware of that fact?" And you said, "No,

7 I'm not."

8 Do you remember that question and answer?

9 A. I don't know. Yes. Yes, I do. I remember.

10 Q. Let me ask you a question about that. How far away from the

11 entrance to Ambar were you there when you were staying at your brother's

12 house?

13 A. About 130, 140 metres, ten metres more or less. It's not far.

14 It's the fifth house if you count the houses.

15 Q. Did you hear any gunfire that morning before you heard the first

16 shells falling?

17 A. First I heard that first shell, then there was intensive shooting.

18 First they started targeting the church and the centre, and it was the PAM

19 that fired the most shots, and then all the weapons started firing.

20 Q. Did that appear to you to be a spontaneous attack or something

21 that had been planned in advance?

22 A. It was planned in advance. There had been barricades set up

23 already. We've skipped over a lot of things here. I explained it to you

24 when we talked. A lot of things have remained unsaid. Everybody knows

25 from Sibenik onwards their forces had set up barricades, and it was only

1 then that we responded to protect our village, to stop them passing

2 through and provoking and so that we would know what was happening in the

3 village. That was the reason for the barricades, not to attack. It was

4 pure defence, defence of the village.

5 Q. Why do you think Skabrnja was attacked?

6 A. For one reason, which transpired later on; the Virovitica-Karlobag

7 corridor. That was their intention ever since the Austrian war long ago.

8 It was nothing spontaneous. It was something they have wanted for a very

9 long time. It's very simple. It doesn't take long to explain it.

10 Of course they were looking for an excuse. First Martic's road

11 was built, which the people will always remember, going from the airport

12 through the Orthodox village of Smokovic, Gornje Biljane, Biljane, Smicic

13 [phoen], Benkovac. That was their route which they had in case they

14 couldn't use the Zadar-Benkovac road.

15 I went to take a car to my daughter in Plitvice, her new Skoda,

16 and in Plitvice they had already put two tank barrels together. I

17 travelled on that road. I went through Obrovac, the so-called Glinica,

18 and as I was registered as a car -- as a transporter in Knin or Obrovac, I

19 paid the -- I bought them a drink. I gave them some beer. I was afraid

20 they would confiscate my car. And then I went on through Maslica [phoen].

21 All these stories, that's all in vain. All it was was

22 self-defence, nothing else.

23 Q. When you say "they," it was something they had wanted for a long

24 time, who do you mean by "they"?

25 A. I mean the SAO Krajina. It wasn't just Martic. There were others

1 as well, but he was playing his role there. It was all a matter of the

2 Krajina and Greater Serbia, nothing else. And the Posavina corridor.

3 Q. Let me ask you now about a different topic. You were asked on

4 cross-examination about the weapons that were in the cellar when you were

5 in the cellar of your brother's house. Do you remember being asked about

6 that?

7 A. Yes, they did put questions about it, yes.

8 Q. And just one further question: Once you and the others came out

9 of the cellar, did you have any weapons with you then?

10 A. No, we didn't. How could you have weapons when you were already

11 captured? Who would you take them to?

12 Q. Thank you. Another question that Defence counsel asked you about,

13 they said, "Could one say that in that JNA unit which was in Skabrnja at

14 the time there were soldiers of all ethnicities?" And then you gave an

15 answer, and then when Defence counsel wanted to move on to something else

16 you said, "Please don't skip over things and stray off the main topic.

17 Shall we talk about not just the real soldiers, the regular soldiers, but

18 all those who were present." And then the Defence lawyer didn't give you

19 a chance to explain, he went on to something else.

20 What did you want to say about all those present, not just the

21 regular soldiers?

22 A. By that I meant that they were mostly reservists. There were very

23 few regular soldiers. The regular soldiers didn't know what was going on.

24 They were lads who had been somehow misled, and they themselves talked

25 about it later on.

1 By -- I met the same soldier who beat me. He was a Siptar, an

2 Albanian, and he told me that he -- he came to see us and provoke us when

3 he was coming to collect his salary. He said he had wanted to kill us.

4 He was boasting about it.

5 Q. Well, let me ask you about the reservists. Do you think that they

6 knew what was going on in Skabrnja that day of the attack?

7 A. Absolutely.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The -- this re-direct is now

11 referring to matters not raised by the Defence during the

12 cross-examination, and they were dealt with extensively during the direct.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black.

14 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour. I just refer to page 37 of the

15 transcript where this issue is raised. The witness, in response to my

16 first question on this topic, said that he was explaining and he said he

17 meant mostly reservists. He said the regular soldiers didn't know what

18 was going on, which led to my question what about the reservists, what did

19 he think they knew?

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, any reply?

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my objection was

22 one of principle. The question I put to the witness referred only to the

23 ethnic make-up of the JNA troops. The Defence felt this was a topic that

24 had to be raised. However, now we are moving on to something different.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: When the witness wanted to answer you, you stopped

1 him. That's why the Prosecution wants to know what it is the witness

2 wanted to say to you which you didn't want to hear, because the

3 Prosecution is interested in hearing it. The objection is overruled.

4 MR. BLACK:

5 Q. Mr. Brkic, perhaps you don't know, and if you don't know, that's

6 fine, but do you know today the ethnicity of any of those reservists that

7 participated in the attack on Skabrnja?

8 A. They were our neighbours from neighbouring villages, Zemunik

9 Gornja, Veljane, Biljane, Gornje Biljane, all those hamlets up to Djevrske

10 and Kistanje. It was a large area: Lisane, Rastevic, all the Orthodox

11 villages, they all participated. We have information on this. There is

12 no need to talk about it a lot.

13 Q. When you say "Orthodox," is that the same as saying Serb villages?

14 A. Yes, yes, Serb villages. I'm not disparaging that, it's just our

15 way of talking. If they want to declare themselves as Serbs, it's their

16 right to do so.

17 Q. Very well. One further question for you, Mr. Brkic. Defence

18 counsel also asked you about Martic's prison, and he asked you if you'd

19 ever seen Martic there, and you said, "No, I never saw Mr. Martic there.

20 Perhaps he was standing next to me, but I wouldn't have recognised him, I

21 wouldn't have known him."

22 And my question for you is very simply: Did you know at that time

23 what Milan Martic looked like?

24 A. No, I didn't know that.

25 MR. BLACK: Thank you. No further questions, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Black.

2 Judge.

3 Questioned by the Court:

4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Witness, as to this map which the Prosecution

5 presented on Wednesday and of which we got these large bluish copies

6 marked for identification under number 285, the original of which,

7 according to your statement, was found after Operation Storm among a lot

8 of the other documents in a place that housed the police administration at

9 that time.

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You stated it shows -- the map shows the course of

12 the attack on Skabrnja and that you assume the attackers drew this map.

13 Now I have two or three questions to that.

14 First, you said you obtained the map from the people who were

15 involved in Operation Storm. Can you give us more specific information

16 when and from whom you obtained the map?

17 A. I got it about two or three months ago. I knew of its existence

18 earlier, but I didn't think I needed it. I described this because

19 everything that's on this map is something I have seen with my own eyes.

20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And from whom did you obtain the map?

21 A. I got it from a man who got it from a colleague who probably still

22 works in the police and who had access to those premises. The man who

23 gave it to me is called Gurlica. He's a neighbour of mine. He's a close

24 friend of this man who gave it to him. Who else could have given it to

25 him?

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: In which condition was this map when you got it?

2 Was this a copy or the original, and in which condition was that?

3 A. It was a copy. The map was in poor condition. That's what I was

4 told.

5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So this could be an explanation for the following

6 question: As the Defence counsel pointed out on Wednesday, the

7 handwritten notes partly are in ball pen, others -- actually, most of the

8 marks and notes in and around the map were written with felt pen.

9 Actually, to me it looks like having been traced what was already written

10 with ball pen for better legibility. This seems obvious to me. Can you

11 explain to us who used the black marker? I suppose this was before the

12 copy was made.

13 A. I think it was done before. I see no reason for somebody to write

14 over it without any need. I wouldn't see the purpose of that.

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So you don't know --

16 A. I think --

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- who did the markings, the tracing with that --

18 A. No. I think the notes were made by the persons who were making

19 this plan. I don't think any other person could have done that or would

20 need to do that. Who else could fabricate or imagine such a plan and

21 write down names they didn't know?

22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Those were my questions, just on those technical

23 issues, so this is all I wanted to know.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.

25 Judge.

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I add one question? Do you know if the

2 original still exists and when -- and if, where and who has it?

3 A. I couldn't tell you. If it does exist, I could get it, but I

4 doubt it. It was a crumpled up piece of paper. Somebody smoothed it out

5 and then made a copy of it.

6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

7 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Brkic, I do have quite a few questions to

8 ask you, and I want to start off by asking you this: You say that you're

9 from Skabrnja, but what ethnic group are you?

10 A. I am a Croat.

11 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: My next question is that you said in your

12 evidence you were called a Siptar, and you explained that this term meant

13 somebody from Kosovo, an Albanian. And you said, or it forms part of the

14 transcript, that you believe this was done to facilitate your liquidation.

15 Should that be to prevent or avoid your liquidation?

16 A. Absolutely.

17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Absolutely to avoid your liquidation?

18 A. No. There was no reason, I think.

19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I thought on this point you had said originally

20 that the person was trying to save you. Is that not so?

21 A. There were no Siptars in that village. I was caught in my own

22 yard. Well, my house and my brother's house shared the same yard. How

23 could there be Siptars or Albanians in Skabrnja?

24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. I see what you mean. Now, you said

25 in evidence and you touched on it not so long ago that the soldiers with

1 Captain Jankovic were picked from surrounding villages, but you also said

2 that there were persons with paint on their faces, and you only recognised

3 one who spoke to you in relation to the cord that was for the cleaning of

4 your gun.

5 Now, in view of the fact that they had paint on their faces and

6 you didn't recognise them, how were you able to say that they were from

7 surrounding villages?

8 A. This guy was from Gornji Zemunik. We knew them whether they had

9 paint on their faces or not. We had been in contact before.

10 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: All of --

11 A. In our private lives, I mean.

12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: You're saying this relates to all of the persons

13 who had paint on their faces or just the one who you say recognised you

14 because -- who spoke to you concerning the cleaning of the gun with the

15 cord?

16 A. They all had paint on their faces whether they were reservists or

17 regulars. The one from Gornji Zemunik, his nickname was Gusa, he did not

18 have paint on his face. That's how I recognised him.

19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. That's what I wanted to know. I'm

20 going to ask you now a question: The basement of your brother's house or,

21 rather, that house that you were in, was it significant to the village

22 guard or the duties of the village guard in any way whatsoever?

23 A. No. It was considered to be the safest shelter, the safest

24 basement in that cluster of houses. All the houses had basements, but

25 this basement was the most secure one.

1 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Now, you also said on Wednesday that you were

2 taken to Knin where initially you were detained in the south camp. This

3 camp had barracks. Do you know if these barracks had any special or

4 specific name?

5 A. It was called Juzni Logor, which means "south camp." I don't know

6 whether it bore any other name after some national hero. There was

7 another barracks called Slavko Rodic. I know that we'd been there. We

8 had gone to unload barracks, to unload ammunition there from Gornji Rok.

9 That's not anywhere in the statements.

10 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: My next question is that you testified that you

11 were held in the barracks for approximately five months, and you said,

12 They detained us in the barracks until we cleared everything, and you

13 mentioned the arrival of Pajo's helmets. What or who are Pajo's helmets?

14 Please tell the Trial Chamber.

15 A. That was UNPROFOR. The first troops arrived and they saw us

16 working and they were angry to see prisoners working, and they chased some

17 of them off, saying they shouldn't work. It was towards the end. Things

18 had already been cleaned up, prepared, concealed, things that they were

19 not supposed to see.

20 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well. And my next question to you is as

21 follows: You testified that the people who remained, as you had already

22 said, they no longer had the five-pointed star, they had the JA insignia,

23 the Yugoslav army insignia, and the Serbian flag, and that was the sort of

24 insignia they had, and you didn't see anything else. The SAO Krajina,

25 well, this is something you could see on all of them. And then there was

1 the JA insignia and the White Eagles, the Beli Orlovi insignia, but I

2 didn't see anything else. As for the individuals who were wearing the

3 cockade hats, et cetera, in Benkovac, well, what's different?

4 Please allow me to finish because I'm going to ask you some

5 questions, Mr. Brkic. If you would just be patient with me. These are my

6 questions: You mentioned Beli Orlovi insignia. Is that for the same unit

7 as the White Eagles or would it be a different unit? That's my first

8 question.

9 A. Yes. Those were Captain Dragan's units. They were in the attack

10 on Skabrnja, but they were not in the barracks. They were up there in

11 Golubic, and I don't know where else. But whenever the helicopter landed

12 on the helicopter landing pad, it would always fly off towards that camp,

13 whether it was Mladic or another officer or anybody else.

14 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: While you were at that position, did you know

15 Captain Dragan's real name?

16 A. No. I never saw the man. I just saw his men. They asked me

17 whether I knew what their insignia meant. I did know, but I didn't dare

18 answer because I was afraid - this was still in Skabrnja - because they

19 participated in all this.

20 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Was Captain Dragan in charge or command of the

21 White Eagles or was it somebody else, as far as you knew?

22 A. I think he was the only one. Whether there was somebody

23 coordinating this with him, I wouldn't know.

24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. And my last question on this area:

25 Do you know who was in charge of the unit wearing the cockade caps?

1 A. I wanted to ask you to let me say that. It wasn't units with

2 cockades, it was individuals.

3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: It was individuals? And who was in charge of

4 the unit in which those individuals were who had the cockade caps then?

5 That's the question.

6 A. There were some in every unit who wore those cockades. Anyone who

7 wanted to would put it on his head and wear it.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well. My next question to you: You

9 mentioned the cockades and World War II. Who used to wear them in World

10 War II?

11 A. The Chetniks. Draza Mihajlovic's men.

12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Chetniks meaning who?

13 A. And Priest Djuic's men. The Chetniks had their "cetas," or

14 companies. "Ceta" means company, so that's why they were called Cetniks,

15 whereas the Ustashas had risen up, and in Croatian you say "ustasi."

16 That's where the word comes from.

17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Do Chetniks have anything to do with Serbs?

18 A. Those were paramilitary units they had at the time, the period

19 that we are discussing now. But they -- there were very few such men at

20 the time. They weren't very strong.

21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well. Thank you. Now, you mentioned

22 Captain Jankovic. Do you recall that?

23 A. Yes, very well. I'm glad that I recall him.

24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Now, you said that he was -- you believed that

25 he was Vojvodina. I might not be pronouncing it right.

1 A. Yes. You pronounced it correctly. They called him Lala, so I

2 assumed he was from there because they call people from Vojvodina Lala,

3 but I don't know whether that was the case. I didn't know this person

4 from before.

5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: [Previous translation continues] ... wanted to

6 know.

7 A. Well, I -- I couldn't translate that either.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Vojvodina is a Croat or a Serb village or a

9 place?

10 A. Well, how should I put it? It's an independent province. Of a

11 temporary or permanent kind, I don't know.

12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: My next question is you said that one soldier

13 told you in respect of reservists, I think, that -- or soldiers, these are

14 the White Eagles, and he said the soldiers belonged to the reservists, and

15 you said you could see it from their faces -- or you said, rather, that

16 the soldiers belong to the reservists and you could see it from their

17 faces. Why did you say you could see it from their faces? Please hold on

18 for me. Did you recognise them or was there something special about their

19 faces or what was on their faces?

20 A. No. They were masked or camouflaged, but I saw that these men

21 were not all young men. There were mature men among them. That's what I

22 meant.

23 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: How did you reach the conclusion that they were

24 reservists? From their faces you said you could see it. That's what I

25 want to know.

1 A. Yes. After the arrival in Benkovac, I saw people whom I

2 personally knew.

3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: These were not masked persons?

4 A. No, not in Benkovac.

5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Now, you spoke about the church in the village

6 in the centre of Skabrnja. You recall that?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And I wanted to know about that church. What

9 denomination was it? Was it Orthodox Serb, Croatian, Catholic,

10 Protestant? What was it?

11 A. It was a Catholic church. The church of St. Mary's.

12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And was it Croat or Serb or ...

13 A. It was Croat.

14 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Now, the persons who beat you will in the lorry

15 or the truck on the way to Knin, how did you know that they were part of

16 the army of soldiers in the barracks at Benkovac?

17 A. The two persons called Pupovac, I knew them myself. I'd been in

18 their house. I'd worked with the father. He was involved in transport,

19 like myself. We worked in Lika, Crvena Jezera. We'd transport goods to

20 various destinations. Perhaps it's not necessary to mention all of this,

21 but we often worked together.

22 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Now, you mentioned people who were brought into

23 the sports hall, who kept on coming, arriving and leaving. Are you able

24 to tell us what ethnic group those persons belonged to?

25 A. They were mostly Croats. As far as I can remember, there were two

1 Serbs, too. One was called Lalic, and there was another person who

2 arrived in Zadar, and unfortunately he hanged himself there.

3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm very sorry to hear that. Now --

4 A. Me too.

5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I want to ask you this question, please: In

6 respect of the detainees in the old hospital, Martic prison, in Martic's

7 prison, were they mainly men or were there any females?

8 A. You're referring to the personnel?

9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: No. I'm referring to the persons who were being

10 held there, not the personnel.

11 A. They were mainly men. I can only remember one woman who was from

12 the Croatian armed forces, from the HOS.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

14 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Sorry, my apologies. And where specifically was

15 this lady being held, this one woman?

16 A. I only saw her by a window in the vicinity of the toilets. That's

17 as you look in that direction from the nursery, it was in the left wing.

18 If you look from the grounds of the hold hospital in the direction of the

19 west, that's where it was.

20 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And this is my last question, you'll be pleased

21 to hear. Did you receive any injuries at all as a result of the beating?

22 A. Yes, many injuries. My face was changed. About 70 per cent of my

23 face was modified. I've now returned back to normal, at least to a

24 certain degree.

25 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: What specifically do you mean by your face being

1 modified?

2 A. I'd been poisoned twice. Now you can see sort of protuberances

3 beneath the skin. I had to have surgical interventions. Then I used

4 certain medicine and that helped. I went to see some doctors in Long

5 Beach because I didn't believe the other doctors, but that's how it is;

6 when you are at risk, you are suspicious, you don't trust anyone.

7 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Any other injuries?

8 A. Well, my ribs were broken and stretched apart, and I have some

9 scar tissue. You can see where I was hit, where I was beaten. My left

10 leg was swollen. I had to -- I was supposed to go and have my leg X-rayed

11 recently, but because of this hearing, because of the evidence I'm giving

12 here, I couldn't. So all sorts of things.

13 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Any of the injuries to your upper body in a

14 position where you can show the Trial Chamber?

15 A. No, only in this area where the tissue was ripped apart. When I

16 lie down and get up, it moves in this manner.

17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Brkic. No further

18 questions. Thank you.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

20 A. Thank you.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.

22 Mr. Brkic, at the time in 1991, did the Yugoslav People's Army

23 have a military base in Ambar?

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: In Skabrnja?

1 A. In Skabrnja there was a reserve airport that was used by the

2 American army in the former war. It was then used by the Yugoslav army

3 for manoeuvres, when they had propeller planes. It's something that you

4 can find on a map.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, you testified that you saw these tanks on that

6 day coming from the direction of Ambar or from Zemunik. Did you know

7 where they came from, where they'd started moving?

8 A. I'll tell you exactly where they were located. I was among them

9 three or four days prior to that event. I was working in Sibenik.

10 Someone from Zemunik asked a Serb who also worked with them, Zeljko

11 Cvjetanovic. He operated an excavator. We were colleges and we dug about

12 60 sites in Sibenik where houses were to be constructed. I didn't want to

13 go into details, but I was among those tanks because there is a man who

14 has a locksmith's shop, and this man, this Serb, helped to repair

15 something on my lorry. I wasn't an enemy of the Serbs. It's not as if we

16 were always enemies.

17 I then went to a shop, and that house is near the shop. And you

18 could see all the tanks parked there from the shop. You can see the site

19 on the map. That's where they were located. Not on the day when Skabrnja

20 was to be attacked. They were there for 15 days or more. They had been

21 there before.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Please can I make a request. Please try to

23 listen to the question and try to answer just the question I'm asking,

24 because I get easily confused. Now, is Sibenik more to the west of Ambar,

25 or where is it situated in relation to Ambar?

1 A. Sibenik is in the direction of Split. It's a town. It's not a

2 village.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Okay. All I want to understand is when you

4 saw these tanks in Ambar, the first time you saw them before the attack,

5 where did they come from? Do you know? If you don't know, just say, "I

6 don't know."

7 A. Yes. As I have already said, they came from Oscar. It says

8 exactly at what time they left, and it says which direction they set off

9 in. There's an arrow indicating the direction they set off in. They left

10 from Oscar, went through Gornji Zemunik, through the centre of Zemunik,

11 and before Ambar some of them turned right to Polje, to reach Sveti Luka,

12 and they encircled the village.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And they then moved in a

14 generally eastern direction to come and attack Skabrnja. Is that what

15 happened?

16 A. No. That was letter G that was formed. Some arrived above

17 Razovljeva in Glavica. The army called it Glava, calls this place Glava.

18 Others arrived from Sveti Luka. This was a carefully planned military

19 attack. They left enough room for the civilians to withdraw if they

20 wanted to flee.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'll ask you once again, please try to be brief in

22 your answers. Before the -- was it the 18th of November when -- the first

23 attack? Before that day --

24 A. Yes. Yes, it was on the 18th.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before that day, were there any tanks in Skabrnja?

1 A. No, there weren't any.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: So for Skabrnja to be attacked, tanks had to come

3 to Skabrnja.

4 A. They came there from Oscar, from Veljane.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Now, you mentioned that when you were

6 at your brother's house before the first attack, you went onto the roof.

7 You explained that you went on to the balcony to check, and you heard some

8 cluster bombs being thrown; is that correct?

9 A. No. The cluster bombs had been launched prior to that time. They

10 weren't launched at that time. The cluster bombs were launched two days

11 earlier. They used other devices to shell us. Multiple rocket launchers.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me ask my question slightly differently. When

13 the very first attack of this village took place, what had the villagers

14 done to provoke the attack?

15 A. The villagers hadn't done anything. I don't see why an attack

16 would have been launched.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Brkic. That will satisfy

18 me for purposes of that question.

19 You were asked by Judge Hoepfel about the map. You said that you

20 came into possession of this map two or three months ago but that you knew

21 of its existence earlier. When did you first come to know of its

22 existence?

23 A. I was told about it by my neighbour Gurlica, but I didn't have the

24 intention of using it. It wasn't necessary. He told me he had some sort

25 of papers and this map was found among the papers that he had.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you remember when he told you?

2 A. Well, as I have already said, it was two or three months earlier.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Earlier than now when you came to testify here.

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: But now I'm getting a little lost, because you said

6 you came into possession of the map two or three months ago. When you say

7 "ago," I understand that you're talking from now. But you also said you

8 had known of its existence a little earlier. Now, you also say that you

9 came to know of it three months ago. I'm not quite sure I understand you.

10 A. I wanted to tell you that this was an earlier map, but I said it

11 was about three months when I found out about it. I didn't have access to

12 that map -- or, in fact, I could have had access but I didn't insist on

13 it. So I said three months, but I meant that I could have had access to

14 the map but I didn't want to.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. But the gravamen of your evidence is that

16 you came into possession of this map two or three months ago. Is that it?

17 Thank you.

18 A. No, two months ago, not three, but I knew about it before.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much. You were also asked

20 about the barracks in Knin, and you have explained that the names of these

21 barracks, there were two, South Camp barracks and Slavko Rodic barracks.

22 Is that correct? I think you were asked by Judge Nosworthy.

23 A. Yes. That's the northern camp, the Sjeverni Logor, which they

24 called Slavko Rodic.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you stay -- were you detained in both of these

1 camps?

2 A. No, we went to Slavko Rodic, the Slavko Rodic to spend two days

3 there unloading ammunition. There were trailers that came from Sveti Rok,

4 and we unloaded the ammunition there. There were some men from Lapac whom

5 I knew who were present. As I was a haulier, I knew a lot of these

6 people. As I was involved in transport, I knew a lot of these people.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'll tell you why I'm asking you this question,

8 because I had another question that I wanted to ask you: You testified

9 that in Knin you were taken to the sports hall, and you call it Martic's

10 prison, where you stayed for plus/minus three months. Do you remember

11 that?

12 A. No. That sports hall was never called Martic's prison. That must

13 be a mistake. No one ever called it that name.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then let it be a mistake, because that's how the

15 transcript explained it. In that event, then I'm not going to ask my

16 other question.

17 At some stage you said that while you were in detention at some

18 stage you were asked to kiss the wall, fatherland, and the King. Do you

19 remember that?

20 A. Yes. We kissed it until we were exhausted.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that. By the fatherland what is

22 meant? What is meant by the fatherland? Did you know what is meant by

23 the fatherland?

24 A. Absolutely. It's an old thesis, an old Serbian thesis. The

25 fatherland is what belongs to them, or what they believe belongs to them.

1 It doesn't matter whose territory it actually is, they believed that

2 Krajina was theirs. They would tell children that an Ustasha village had

3 fallen when Skabrnja fell. They said that they had captured children and

4 taken them to Benkovac in that area.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what was meant by the King?

6 A. That would be Koenig, the German word for King. King.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. But when they said you must kiss the wall,

8 the fatherland, and the King, who did they want to kiss who is the King?

9 A. They were thinking of their King who, in their eyes, was still

10 alive; King Petar.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've mentioned being kept in a small room in

12 Knin, and you said it was something like 4 by 4 metres. I wanted to find

13 out from you how many were you in that room?

14 A. There were about 17 or 18 of us. That's what I say, because I

15 never really counted, to be quite frank.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. At some stage in Martic's prison, you said

17 you were kept in room number 1, which was very small and could only allow

18 a bed, and you said that one was about two and a half by two and a half

19 metres. Oh, you did explain. You did say there were nine of you.

20 A. I said that it was a small room. There were bunkbeds. There were

21 nine of us, and there were nine beds. I meant that you could pass between

22 the beds. You could only pass between the beds. And that's the first

23 time I saw a bed in Knin during those 12 days.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You were referred, and I'm not sure whether

25 I'm going to pronounce this word correctly, to Marticici. It sounded to

1 me, and it looked to me when I read it here as the name "Martic" with

2 "c-i-c-i" at the end.

3 A. No. If that's what I said, perhaps I said Marticevci. It would

4 be the plural, not one person, several people.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: By which you meant?

6 A. I don't know what the question was so I can't say.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: But what are Marticevci? Just tell me, what are

8 they?

9 A. It was the police or the army who operated there. Guards or

10 soldiers.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Marticevci means Martic's

12 men.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

14 THE INTERPRETER: You're welcome.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You talked of people who were in a state of

16 delirium because they were without any alcohol and couldn't smoke. Why

17 would people be delirious because they didn't have alcohol and they didn't

18 smoke?

19 A. They were probably already ill for that reason. I don't know. I

20 know there were two such individuals. One was with me in those small

21 houses and both of them ended up in the hall later on. And while this

22 crisis lasted - it was for about one month- after that period of time,

23 they calmed down to a certain extent.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: How did you come to know that the cause of their

25 delirium was lack of alcohol and lack of smoke?

1 A. It's easy to prove since that's what they claimed themselves. And

2 when an addict has a crisis, that's what happens. It's a well-known fact.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's much better, I understand you now. These

4 people were addicts, and they told you so. Thank you.

5 Thank you very much, Mr. Brkic. I have no further questions.

6 A. Thank you, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising from the questions by the

8 Chamber? Mr. Black.

9 MR. BLACK: No questions, Your Honour. I simply wonder if with

10 MFI 285, on the basis of the additional information obtained by Your

11 Honour and Judge Hoepfel, we've reached the point where it could be

12 admitted into evidence?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber is coming to that.

14 MR. BLACK: Thank you.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Mr. Milovancevic.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I only have many

17 three brief questions in connection with questions put by the Bench.

18 Further cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:

19 Q. The first one refers to reservists and to your explanation,

20 Witness, in response to Judge Nosworthy's questions. You said they were

21 masked "but by their faces I could see they were reservists." My question

22 is as follows: Are you trying to say that these were older men who were

23 in the army and you concluded by their age that they were reservists? Is

24 that what you meant?

25 A. Yes, that's what I meant. Between 40 and 60 years old. It was

1 those people I was referring to.

2 Q. In order to avoid confusion, you mentioned the young conscripts

3 doing their regular military service, and now you mentioned the older

4 people, more mature men, whom you recognised because of their age.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. In connection with these reservists, you mentioned

7 Nada Pupovac. Was she a reservist?

8 A. No. She a company of her own, and she was its commander. I was

9 told this by people from Benkovac who were ill in hospital, a butcher who

10 had been beaten up. And this man died.

11 Q. Just briefly, do you know whether Nada Pupovac was a Serb?

12 A. Yes, she was. She was from Kula -- no, not Kula, that village

13 right next to Lisicici, but she lived and worked in Benkovac. I knew her

14 by sight from before. I'd never had contact with her, though.

15 Q. Was she the woman you said prevented someone from cutting your

16 throat?

17 A. No. It was a young lad that she saved. She said, I've had enough

18 of throat slitting. So she protected that very young boy.

19 Q. And my last question in connection with Their Honours' questions

20 has to do with Captain Jankovic. You said you remembered him and that

21 you're glad you remember him, and you said that he was nicknamed Lala,

22 which would show that he came from Vojvodina, a province in Serbia. Would

23 you say that he was a Serb or a Hungarian by ethnicity?

24 A. Well, I know Jankovic was a Serb. And there was a doctor in Zadar

25 who died recently, a female doctor called Jankovic. I want to say I know

1 people whose last name is Jankovic are usually Serbs and they're Orthodox.

2 And in connection with these houses of worship, that woman might have been

3 a Croat. That's what led me to believe that.

4 Q. To avoid any doubt, did I understand you correctly that you mean

5 that Jankovic was probably a Serb, that he was Orthodox?

6 A. Yes, that's what I think, what I assume.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

8 Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. At this stage the Chamber is

10 satisfied, unless anything else to the contrary is shown, that Exhibit 285

11 that was marked for identification, that's the map, can be admitted into

12 evidence.

13 Do you have anything to say, Mr. Milovancevic?

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. In that event, Exhibit 285,

16 which was marked for identification, is now being admitted into evidence

17 as an exhibit. And I guess it will retain the same exhibit number?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It will retain the same exhibit number as Exhibit

20 285. Thank you very much.

21 Mr. Brkic, thank you very much for coming to testify. This brings

22 us to the end of your testimony. You are now excused. You may stand

23 down. Thank you very much.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're most welcome.

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, in just the remaining minutes left I

3 wonder if I could address the Chamber about a matter. I thought it might

4 be a good time to update the Chamber on the progress that we're making in

5 the Prosecution case, to give the Chamber a sense of where we are and when

6 we think we might be completed.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: We would appreciate that.

8 MR. WHITING: Yes. The good news is that by our calculation we

9 are well on track and we predict that we will finish within our time

10 estimates if not earlier. You will recall that the Prosecution, in its

11 filing of 23 November 2005, estimated as best it could that the trial

12 would last approximately 298 hours, which is, with the trial days that we

13 sit, is about 80 trial days.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Prosecution case.

15 MR. WHITING: The Prosecution case. Yes. I'm sorry.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not the trial.

17 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry. Sometimes I confuse those two. It's the

18 Prosecution case. Yes, Your Honour.

19 We've just completed our 37th day of evidence, so there are

20 remaining 43 days left, which, if we sat every day that is scheduled,

21 would take us to the 16th of June of this year. By our calculation, we

22 will finish our evidence before then. Of course, there could -- we could

23 mis-estimate and it could be around there, but I think we will finish

24 earlier in June, either end of May or early June. So this is just to say

25 that we are -- we're on track, we're within our estimates, and to give the

1 Chamber an idea of when we think we'll finish the Prosecution case.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting.

3 Anybody wants to say anything on this? Mr. Milovancevic? Do you

4 have any comments to make or you're quite happy?

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Thank you very much,

7 Mr. Whiting, for that update. I think it is appreciated. It is helpful

8 to know whether we are keeping schedule or not.

9 Is the Prosecution going to be calling a witness before we break?

10 MR. WHITING: No, Your Honour, we're unable to fill the remaining

11 seven minutes of the day, so we will start with our next witness on

12 Monday. I believe we have morning court on Monday.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's just check. I think you are right. Morning

14 court in Courtroom II. This is I. We are sitting in Courtroom II, Monday

15 morning at 9.00. Court adjourned until that time.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.39 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day

18 of April, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.

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