Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 170

 1                           Thursday, 12 June 2008

 2                           [Status Conference]

 3                           [Open session]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 3.14 p.m.

 6             JUDGE THELIN:  Good afternoon, everyone.  I'm sorry for the delay

 7     which was due to a technical problem obviously.

 8             Could we have the case called, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  Good afternoon,

10     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-98-32/1-PT, the

11     Prosecutor versus Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic.

12             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you very much.

13             Before we proceed I would like to make sure that the two accused

14     are able to follow what is being said in the courtroom in a language they

15     understand.

16             Mr. Milan Lukic, do you understand what is being said?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, we cannot hear the accused.

18             THE ACCUSED M. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I do.

19             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you.

20             Mr. Sredoje Lukic.

21             THE ACCUSED S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you.

23             Could we then proceed to the representation.

24             Prosecution.

25             MR. GROOME:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  For the Prosecution,

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 1     Dermot Groome; I'm accompanied by Steven Cole, Francesca Mazzocco, Maxine

 2     Marcus, and Sebastiaan van Hooydonk.

 3             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you.

 4             And for the Defence, Milan Lukic.

 5             MR. ALARID:  [Microphone not activated].

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             JUDGE THELIN:  You need your microphone.

 8             MR. ALARID:  I apologise.  Jason Alarid on behalf of Mr. Milan

 9     Lukic and also accompanied by Mihailo Lakcevic.

10             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you, Mr. Alarid.

11             And the case is now that you have been formally appointed

12     counsel, lead counsel; is that correct?

13             MR. ALARID:  I was informed by Mr. Petrov today that it should

14     have been in my e-mail between the Status Conference.

15             JUDGE THELIN:  We will in all respects treat you as lead counsel.

16             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, sir.

17             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Sredoje Lukic.

19             MR. CEPIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honour, I am Djuro Cepic.

20     Appearing with me, Ms. Christina Kerll as our legal assistant and

21     Mr. Jens Dieckmann as a co-counsel in our Defence team.

22             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you very much.

23             Well, the purpose of this Status Conference is to review where we

24     are.  We met three months, I believe, to the day last time when we had

25     the last Status Conference.  In the meantime the very able Ms. Yvonne

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 1     Featherstone, the Senior Legal Officer, have conducted three 65 ter

 2     conferences in order to move things along and there has been a -- I won't

 3     say a flurry, but there has been a lot of submissions on both sides

 4     relating to matters of disclosure, alibi, and to the pre-trial briefs.

 5     And obviously things are at this point looking much, much brighter than

 6     it did three months ago.  And the aim of this Status Conference is to lay

 7     down some dates for the trial to actually start, the Pre-Trial Conference

 8     date which we previously assumed was, as you know, the 16th of May, a day

 9     which came and went.  No formal notice from the Bench of the change and

10     you all know that matters both relating to the parties but also to

11     administrative parties inside the Tribunal made it impossible to have

12     that date as a Pre-Trial Conference date.  So now we're looking at other

13     options and we'll come back to that.

14             I will run through the list of open issues as I see them and as I

15     have been informed that we have.  Before I go into that, I will first

16     note that we had a filing officially this morning from the Prosecution

17     relating to a wish to have the indictment amended.  I was given a

18     courtesy copy of it yesterday, so I wasn't totally unaware.  And the

19     response date for that expires the 26th of June, which is the normal

20     date.  And I will certainly not pre-judge where the Trial Bench will as a

21     decision address the motion and the eventual responses.  However, I would

22     with you, Mr. Groome, like to inquire as to the timing of this amendment;

23     and I do that because normally, as we all know, we are looking -- it's

24     now rather to reducing the scope of an indictment at this stage of a

25     pre-trial phase and not to expand it.  I read the motions.  You do not

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 1     have to give me all that's in it, but I would like to address the

 2     question whether that the fact that new charges are brought in I believe

 3     to both of the accused and also some other substantial changes, for

 4     instance, to the concept of joint criminal enterprise.

 5             My question is simply this, Mr. Groome:  Whether the basis for

 6     these wishes to amend the indictment, if they are based on facts that

 7     were known to you or facts that have recently come to light.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, as explained in the motion, when I

 9     first took over this case end -- middle of December, it was around the

10     same time that both accused notified the Court and the Prosecution that

11     they would rely on alibi evidence.  Now, of course when -- just last week

12     that alibi evidence has been perfected with respect to Sredoje Lukic and

13     we still have very vague details about it with respect to Milan Lukic.

14     But with the information that we did receive, began a process of

15     examining in our evidentiary collection what if any statements or

16     evidence existed that could shed light on the issue of whether or not

17     they were present during the times they committed these crimes.  And in

18     doing that, Your Honour, it seemed that more than a few of the statements

19     that were taken in some cases over a decade ago, put the -- both accused

20     at different -- in Visegrad at the time that they now say that they were

21     not there.

22             Most remarkably or most notably is one woman who says she was

23     brutally raped by Milan Lukic, just hours before -- three times just

24     hours before the Bikavac fire.  So in fulfilling my obligations to

25     present evidence relevant to alibi I will have to call this witness and

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 1     she will be examined by me about the circumstances of these rapes, she

 2     will be cross-examined by the Defence, and the Court at the end of the

 3     case will be called upon to assess her reliability, her credibility, and

 4     will necessarily have to make a determination whether or not on the day

 5     of the Bikavac fire Milan Lukic raped her three times.

 6             Now, it seems to me in fairness to this woman and other woman

 7     like her who will be called to similarly testify, that having put herself

 8     through the retraumatisation of having to go through these events, in

 9     many cases when these women initially gave their statements, they

10     expressed their refusal to testify because it was such a painful event in

11     their lives.  Some had since married and they had never told their

12     husbands or their children about these events and here I was sending

13     investigators to knock on their doors explaining the situation and asking

14     would they come forward.  Some agreed, some expressed some reluctance,

15     some asked for time to discuss it with their families.  But of the women

16     that now are willing to come forward and to talk about these events, it

17     seems to me that they have the right to have the Court adjudicate whether

18     or not a crime was perpetrated against them because their evidence has

19     now necessarily been implicated by the alibi defence.  And it is in the

20     course of investigating the alibi defence, Your Honour, that this

21     evidence came into focus and was formulated into the indictment that

22     was -- or the proposed indictment that was filed yesterday.

23             JUDGE THELIN:  [Microphone not activated].

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.

25             JUDGE THELIN:  You were, Mr. Groome, if I understood it reminded

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 1     of these facts by the notice of alibi given by the accused; is that

 2     correct?

 3             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, although it's more than reminded.

 4     They were never part of the indictment but it's when they came to light.

 5             JUDGE THELIN:  I'm just trying to clarify the fact you had it, it

 6     was old, but you were reminded because of new information from the other

 7     side?

 8             MR. GROOME:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE THELIN:  As I said I will not go any deeper into this.

10     There's no point to have counsel for the accused address this at this

11     point.  The Chamber will obviously render a decision whether to grant or

12     deny this request for amendment in due course and certainly well before

13     we get into any Pre-Trial Conference.

14             So I intend to move on to open questions of another nature.  We

15     have been exercising quite a bit with the notices of alibi.  The Chamber

16     issued a decision on the 26th of May this year whereby notice and

17     information should be provided to -- from the accused to the Prosecution,

18     and the Defence for Sredoje Lukic did that, I believe, on the 2nd of June

19     this year.  And we are still, I believe, waiting for the Defence of

20     Mr. Milan Lukic to, A, provide notice to the Court; and B, provide

21     material to the Prosecution.  So where are we on this, Mr. Alarid?

22             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, we did tender the initial information

23     to the Prosecution and I apologise to the Court for not putting it into a

24     formal pleading for yourself, but by the due date earlier rendered by the

25     Court we tendered what we had in total.  And so as a matter of fact we're

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 1     trying to facilitate interviews as we speak of the alibi witnesses that

 2     we do have.  We've been since tendered several names by the client and

 3     just defence preparation meetings and we are just beginning the

 4     investigative state.  Some of them may qualify as alibi, but we have not

 5     determined and I don't want to misrepresent to the Court the nature of

 6     the testimony that may come since they may cover a wide spectrum of

 7     issues relevant to the defence but not necessarily qualitative of a Rule

 8     67 disclosure.

 9             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you, Mr. Alarid.

10             Well, in order to assist and facilitate the Chamber we'd be

11     grateful for having the lacking notice not later than a week from now,

12     which I think you could provide us with, unless you could do it today,

13     but certainly not later than a week today.

14             MR. ALARID:  I'll tender it by Monday, Judge.  I leave on Tuesday

15     and I think there's no problem getting that done.

16             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you.

17             I hope the response will be the same for the next dead-line and

18     that is to notify the Prosecution of the witnesses that are for you to --

19     under the label of alibi to follow your obligation and here the time I

20     have in mind for you to do that is the end of the month, i.e., the 30th

21     of June, so not later than the end of the month.

22             MR. ALARID:  I think with the initial investigation we're moving

23     from today, I hope that's feasible, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE THELIN:  I hope it's more than feasible, I hope it reaches

25     us.

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 1             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir.

 2             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you, Mr. Alarid.

 3             We then have -- there are some other matters concerning the

 4     Defence alibis which I think was satisfactorily dealt with during the 65

 5     ter conference and are expected to be dealt with also by the parties

 6     outside the courtroom so I won't spend any time on it but move to the

 7     question of the clarification of the Defence pre-trial briefs.

 8             Here there have been two decisions by the Bench, one on the 29th

 9     of May and the second on the 9th of June this year with a request and a

10     new dead-line which was actually yesterday.  And I'm happy to note that

11     Sredoje Lukic file was expected yesterday, but we are still waiting for

12     the Defence of Milan Lukic to do the same.

13             Comments, Mr. Alarid?

14             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             To comply with the Trial Chamber's decision on that, it was

16     really impractical considering I was flying across the 10th to the 11th,

17     but more importantly, Your Honour, that some of the clarifications that

18     are requested really require a deeper understanding of the facts and I

19     don't want to misrepresent myself to the Court and basically give

20     information that down the road turns out not to be credible or justified.

21     We're just getting our office set up right now.  We've got a team in

22     movement, and I'd like the opportunity to clarify, I think that's

23     important, but I don't want to do it from a position of lack of

24     knowledge.

25             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you, Mr. Alarid.  That's very commendable,

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 1     and that's why I'm minded to give you a week more than I gave the Defence

 2     for Mr. Sredoje Lukic.  That means that you are to comply with this not

 3     later than the 18th of June.  I think that should be feasible.

 4             Moving on then to other matters where the responsibility rests

 5     more with the Chamber than with the parties, we have the Prosecution

 6     motions for -- regarding 92 bis, ter, and quater statements.  That is

 7     ready for decision and that decision within due course be taken by the

 8     Trial Chamber.  The same goes for Rule 94, i.e., adjudicated facts and

 9     notices as to agreed facts, the Prosecution motion and notices, and we

10     will be able to address that unless parties indicate that discussions on

11     these matters are ongoing, but I understood that from the Prosecution's

12     point of view at least, and that squares with the Defence of Sredoje

13     Lukic, this is not a priority, i.e., to pursue the avenue of try to get

14     more agreed facts.

15             Is that a correct understanding, Mr. Groome?

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I know that Mr. Cepic has had a meeting

17     with a member of my staff and it was a productive meeting.  It hasn't

18     reached any finality, but as I said at the earlier conference today the

19     Prosecution is available whenever counsel from either team is in town to

20     discuss the matter further.

21             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

22             Mr. Cepic.

23             MR. CEPIC:  Mr. Dieckmann will raise our position about that

24     issue.

25             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you.

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 1             Mr. Dieckmann.

 2             MR. DIECKMANN:  Thank you, Your Honour.  As we explained and -- I

 3     think in the last 65 ter conference we are definitely willing and able to

 4     negotiate about agreed and adjudicated facts.  The problem is that we are

 5     still preparing -- conducting interviews of the Prosecution and they have

 6     some practical problems, but we are very confident that we could solve it

 7     together with the Prosecution.  And this is all we can say in the moment.

 8     If we have conducted or finished our investigation, we could sit together

 9     and start substantial negotiations, we are willing to do this, but this

10     is from today everything we could say.

11             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you, Mr. Dieckmann.

12             Well, I encourage obviously both parties to do their utmost in

13     order to reach anything that could diminish the need for live testimony

14     in this case.

15             The third matter under this headline is the motion regarding

16     protective measures applications number 4 and 5 and other submissions in

17     relation to that and to the witness list.  And I expect to be able to

18     have a decision from the Chamber next week on these issues to clarify

19     those matters.  I believe we have a list of some 20 witnesses which are

20     affected by this in various ways.  So that will be dealt with next -- not

21     later than next week.

22             There is also an outstanding Rule 54 bis motion from Sredoje

23     Lukic, and since this is technically a confidential matter my idea was

24     not to go into the substance of it.  I just check whether it is, as has

25     been indicated, the intention of the Sredoje Lukic Defence to wait for

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 1     whatever comes out from requests and then perhaps refile the application.

 2     What can you tell me about this, Mr. Cepic?

 3             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, we requested again that material from

 4     broadcasting companies in Bosnia, and I received the answer from one of

 5     companies and they replied to me that they are agreeable to deliver us

 6     that material but just with the order of Trial Chamber.  So we have to

 7     file that motion as soon as we receive the second answer from another

 8     broadcasting company.

 9             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you, Mr. Cepic.  Well, we'll look forward

10     for your application.

11             There are, I understand, questions relating to matters of

12     disclosure which have been -- which are not dealt with in the motions and

13     others that I have discussed now that parties are engaged in discussions.

14     Are there any particular issues that the parties need to raise here?  I'm

15     looking, obviously, to the Defence first.  Is there anything you need to

16     raise or can I assume that the matter that was discussed during the 65

17     ter conference will be pursued and if there is a need to involve the

18     Chamber on any of these issues you will do so.

19             Is that correct, Mr. Alarid?

20             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour, that is.

21             JUDGE THELIN:  Mr. Cepic.

22             MR. CEPIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.  If we have some new

23     requests we will raise that by e-mails directly to the OTP.

24             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you.

25             And, Mr. Groome, I think there are matters of -- concerning some

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 1     witnesses that also may change the position and affect the present

 2     witness list.  Any comments on that, Mr. Groome?

 3             MR. GROOME:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, if you could maybe clarify

 4     what point you're asking me to address.

 5             JUDGE THELIN:  Well, first of all, I should have asked whether

 6     you have any comments on what the counsel said now.

 7             MR. GROOME:  With respect to disclosure, no, Your Honour, there

 8     are no issues the Prosecution wants to raise.

 9             JUDGE THELIN:  I was then quickly moving to a slightly different

10     matter, namely that I understand there has been some change on your part

11     with regard to witnesses put forward by you that may need some decision.

12     Would you care to comment on that?

13             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, could I ask that we go into closed

14     session for this purpose.

15             JUDGE THELIN:  Private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

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11  Pages 182-183 redacted. Private session.















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 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 7             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you very much.

 8             We then with those matters dealt with are ready to focus on

 9     readiness for the trial.  And my assessment is that if we can have

10     compliance with the dead-lines already laid down and also taken into

11     account the discussions that I believe have been had regarding conflict

12     of other trials and also travel problems and the like.  It seems that it

13     would be possible, unless you strongly object, to have a

14     Pre-Trial Conference in this trial on Wednesday, the 2nd of July this

15     year.

16             I take comfort in the fact that no one is protesting.

17             Ah, Mr. Alarid.

18             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, at the 65 ter conference this morning I

19     indicated that the week of the 2nd I have a couple trials set back home

20     that need to be resolved so they're not bothering us in a month.  And if

21     I can resolve that, I am available the next week, preferably the latter

22     part of the week, but technically the whole week if I had to make

23     arrangements.

24             JUDGE THELIN:  Well, Mr. Alarid, we understand that there may be

25     other pressing assignments that makes things problematic.  We are

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 1     certainly not going to try to make the impossible.  I mean, if you are

 2     due somewhere else, you are due somewhere else.  On the other hand, there

 3     is now some time between here and then and maybe things in the other end

 4     could change and evolve so you could accommodate and actually be here for

 5     the Pre-Trial Conference on the 2nd of July.  Or are you stating that

 6     that is totally impossible?  That was a leading question, Mr. Alarid.

 7             MR. ALARID:  It is.  Yes, it is, Judge, and the reason being it

 8     may be small matters in the grand scheme of things but they are pending

 9     trials that have been waiting a long time as well and by resolving them I

10     free myself up I think to accommodate the accelerated trial-prep

11     situation much better.  If I can get those finalised, that's two less

12     things that are going to interfere I think with the more important time,

13     which is complying with preparation issues for the Court.  And also I

14     think with having a little more time to assess the situation, it may make

15     the Pre-Trial Conference a little more fruitful, as a week sometimes can

16     make a difference.

17             JUDGE THELIN:  How are things on your end, Mr. Groome?

18             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, that would be acceptable to the

19     Prosecution.  When I say acceptable, Your Honour, I mean the 2nd of July

20     that you mentioned and any date after that.

21             JUDGE THELIN:  Okay.

22             Mr. Cepic.

23             MR. CEPIC:  No problem with us.  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE THELIN:  I'm minded at this stage, Mr. Alarid, given the

25     fact that so many are involved, to say that for now the 2nd of July is

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 1     standing; however, we would be prepared and I would appreciate if you

 2     could then when we get closer -- we now work with the 2nd of July as a

 3     Pre-Trial Conference, and in the hope that things may, despite your

 4     assessment at this moment, clear in the US end, if I can put it that way,

 5     we would be prepared to work out another date, and that date would then

 6     be the 9th of July, which is a week after.  But we all now put our hope

 7     in the fact that also Mr. Alarid should be able to make the 2nd of July,

 8     but we are prepared to take the 9th as an alternative.  That would, on

 9     the other hand, mean, since the idea was to use the 9th not only for

10     opening statements but also to start the evidence, the 9th of July would

11     be a very heavy day.  But we're all used to heavy days in the Tribunal,

12     so I think that could be accomplished.  By that I have disclosed that if

13     we now were to have the Pre-Trial Conference not on the 2nd, which there

14     is a risk for, the 9th would start with the Pre-Trial Conference, to be

15     followed by opening statements, and if the time permit, obviously, the

16     first lead of evidence.

17             Because the fact that the trial starts would not mean that we

18     will go full steam all the way to recess because we understand that on

19     both sides there may be a need to additionally clarify points, but I

20     think it's important, not the least for the accused who have been

21     waiting, to see that the trial actually formally starts.  So the idea is

22     to have the remainder of that week, i.e., the 10th and 11th of July, for

23     the Prosecution case to start.  And then there will be a break, that is

24     the plan at the moment, and then the case will be resumed after the

25     normal opening of business of the Tribunal.

Page 187

 1             Have the parties understood the thinking behind this scheme of

 2     things?

 3             Mr. Groome.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE THELIN:  Mr. Alarid.

 6             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, I understand the scheme of

 7     things, although I think I've made our position pretty clear in

 8     submissions over the last couple of weeks regarding our really competence

 9     to proceed in that rapid a manner.  I think that it's difficult to assess

10     our preparedness at this stage just because we're just really putting the

11     team together and we're really getting to the meat and bones of this case

12     and it would be an extreme prejudice and disadvantage and that is why it

13     was important for me to advise Mr. Lukic of those issues and that's why

14     we signed the waiver of the speedy trial portion of the rule in our last

15     submission, is because it is important, although they've been waiting,

16     it's more important I think to have a competent defence presented.  And

17     if we're doing all our preparation while the OTP is starting their case,

18     that really places us in a risky proposition for providing a competent

19     defence.

20             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you, Mr. Alarid.  I'm aware that you are --

21     consider yourself to be a latecomer to the case; however, if I recall

22     correctly, you have now been appointed to the Defence for now quite some

23     time, in March I believe.  And there comes a time when things just need

24     to be ready, and I think it would not compromise your client's interests

25     if you made all efforts on your part to try to abide by the times now

Page 188

 1     laid down.

 2             I think the Chamber has been reasonably understanding with your

 3     hitherto failure to comply with those time-lines that have been laid

 4     down.  I am aware that you have asked for extended time and so on, but

 5     you're also aware of that you have not been able to comply with the times

 6     that we have laid down before.  So I can only urge you to try to do your

 7     utmost in this respect.  And this is also then linked to the fact that

 8     obviously the Prosecution, if the hearing of witnesses after the opening

 9     of the Prosecution case is to start - which I hope it will be on the 9th

10     of July - there is a need for you, Mr. Groome, to inform counsel for the

11     two accused of what witnesses you intend to start with.

12             Are you ready to say when you could give notice of your witnesses

13     that you start to lead?

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, Ms. Featherstone raised that issue this

15     morning.  Actually, you have several copies of the first 16 witnesses and

16     I will provide those after the conference to all the parties in the

17     courtroom.

18             JUDGE THELIN:  Mr. Groome, I think that's very helpful and that I

19     think should make life somewhat easier for you, Mr. Alarid, in the

20     preparation of the case.

21             Mr. Cepic, do you have any comments on this?

22             MR. CEPIC:  Yes, I do, Your Honour.  Actually, we are ready of

23     course for this trial.  We have been preparing more than two years, but

24     according to second amended indictment.  So any changes in the indictment

25     causing huge problems for us, especially in relation to mode of

Page 189

 1     responsibility because we have been preparing our defence, as I said, for

 2     more than two years.  Now just a couple days or weeks before the trial

 3     commencement, we've been receiving some proposal which is completely

 4     different than all our preparation, which changes everything, everything.

 5     We have to start from the zero if it would be accepted.  That is the

 6     first problem.

 7             And we would be grateful just to know the agenda for July because

 8     my learned friend, Mr. Dieckmann, will be busy in Germany.  So I'll be

 9     present here, so just to know how many witnesses is planned for July and

10     how many working days because I do have also final activities in the

11     Milutinovic et al. case, 8th of July is the dead-line for the final brief

12     and last week of July is the schedule for the closing arguments.  It is

13     so important for me because it means last activities in that case where I

14     spent more than 25 months.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you, Mr. Cepic.  I am fully aware, as are

16     others, of your other commitments at this Tribunal.  And as I -- let me

17     first address your concern with the motion for amending the indictment,

18     and I'm certain that what you just said now will be reflected also in the

19     response, and obviously the Chamber will give due weight to the motion

20     and to reply and try to come with a judicious decision in due course.

21             As to your second, I had understood it that the Prosecution are

22     now providing the first line of witnesses obviously need to perhaps

23     indicate what the Prosecution indicates to be able to cover during the

24     three days in July that we're talking about, the 9th, the 10th, and the

25     11th.  And that's the end, that's the total of what this case will take

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 1     as far as scheduling for July.  So I think that answered your second

 2     question, Mr. Cepic.

 3             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE THELIN:  So just to let me summarize, we are at the moment

 5     working despite the dissatisfaction of Mr. Alarid, and I hope that can be

 6     resolved, with the Pre-Trial Conference on the 2nd of July.  If it turns

 7     out - and I'm sure that Mr. Alarid when we get closer will inform us that

 8     that is totally impossible because of his other commitments, the

 9     Pre-Trial Conference will be held early on the 9th of July, which is also

10     the date for the opening statements by the Prosecution and for the

11     Prosecution to start to lead its witnesses, and which those witnesses are

12     the parties will be informed I believe already after the close of this

13     Status Conference.  And then the case will continue on the 10th and the

14     11th of July, and after that there will be a break for the parties to be

15     able to draw breath, review, and then continue after the recess.

16             Has that been fully understood by all?

17             Mr. Groome.

18             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, it has.

19             JUDGE THELIN:  Mr. Alarid.

20             MR. ALARID:  Well, it's understood, Judge, but your -- one of the

21     issues that I have is that I know in some instances opening is waived

22     until a later date.  My fear -- and I just don't believe in that as a

23     trial attorney.  I think it's very important for the Defence to set the

24     stage at the outset because otherwise, in a vacuum it leaves the

25     Prosecution's case as the only explanation of the events from the very

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 1     beginning and then if we wait until the beginning of the Defence case to

 2     make our opening, it's sort of like rebuttal and I think that's a poor

 3     way to start a case.  And so my position is I think it would be very

 4     difficult, given the time constraints of myself, to actually be prepared

 5     to give a formal opening statement on the 9th under any set of

 6     circumstances, much less having our pre-trial that morning and then

 7     starting.  I think that's a very difficult task to make with our

 8     accessibility to the actual meat and bones of this case at this juncture.

 9     And that's why I was hoping that absent anything else, those three days

10     could be put out until when we were really thinking about resuming the

11     trial, which is of course August after the summer recess.

12             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you.  We have noted what you have said,

13     Mr. Alarid, and that's what could be said at this time.

14             Mr. Cepic.

15             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just one thing, if I may

16     ask, I kindly ask OTP to have at least ten days prior to the commencement

17     of the trial tentative witness notification for July month just to have

18     enough time to be prepared, because as I said, I have too many activities

19     in another case and to be ready for the trial commencement.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you, Mr. Cepic.  I was under the impression

21     that the Prosecution would not have any problems to comply with that.

22             Is that correct, Mr. Groome?

23             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, I will provide that.  One thing I

24     would note, the third witness when I distribute it people will see is a

25     very substantial witness.  I think given the schedule that the Chamber is

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 1     talking about it might be wise to postpone that witness until after the

 2     break.  So with that amendment I will be providing that information.

 3             With respect to delayed disclosure, Your Honour, I think some of

 4     the terms require 30 days before trial.  We're now less than 30 days, but

 5     within the next day or two we'll meet our obligation as soon as possible.

 6             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you.  That would seem to be satisfactory.

 7     Thank you.

 8             With that I think, unless the parties wish to raise any other

 9     matter that has not been raised so far.

10             MR. GROOME:  Not from the Prosecution, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE THELIN:  Mr. Alarid.

12             MR. ALARID:  Nothing at this time, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE THELIN:  Mr. Cepic.

14             MR. CEPIC:  Just to inform this honourable Trial Chamber that the

15     last week OTP conducted interview with Defence alibi witnesses in

16     Belgrade, they interviewed three witnesses.  That's all.  Nothing more.

17     Thank you.

18             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you, Mr. Cepic.  We have noted that.

19             That brings me to the penultimate issue, and that is to make sure

20     that the two accused do not have anything that they wish to raise in

21     front of the Chamber.

22             Mr. Milan Lukic, is there anything that you wish to raise?

23             THE ACCUSED M. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Nothing, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Sredoje Lukic.

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 1             THE ACCUSED S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2     Nothing to say.

 3             JUDGE THELIN:  Thank you.

 4             Well, this from my perspective brings this Status Conference to a

 5     close and we'll now stand adjourned.

 6                           --- Whereupon the Status Conference

 7                           adjourned at 3.56 p.m.