080827ED

Page 602

1 Wednesday, 27 August 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 8.54 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.

7 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honours. Would you like me to continue?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe that's the idea.

10 MR. ALARID: Yes. Well, she was talking at me, so I'm sorry.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-097 [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid: [Continued]

14 Q. Good morning, Mr. 97.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. I don't know where to leave off when we take a short break, but I

17 think we'll just go chronologically through your statements and what you

18 said before. Is that okay?

19 A. As far as I remember, where we stopped yesterday was at

20 Mr. Perisic, that issue.

21 Q. Thank you for reminding me, because I didn't look at the

22 transcript before. Isn't it true -- or, actually, I'll just ask if you

23 know who ran the Crisis Staff.

24 A. Are you referring to the Muslim or to the Serb side?

25 Q. The Serb side.

Page 603

1 A. On the Serb side, as far as I can recall, Brana Savovic, Risto

2 Perisic, and I also believe Mr. Stanko Pecikoza were on the Crisis Staff;

3 and, normally, some other people from Visegrad whose names I cannot

4 recall right now.

5 Q. But as far as you know, Stanovic -- or Savovic, rather, ran

6 everything?

7 A. To the best my recollection, when Mr. Slobodan Klipa stepped down

8 from his duty, Brane Savovic took over all the powers inherent in it.

9 Q. And that power included the appointment of important government

10 positions by SDS members?

11 A. Most probably.

12 Q. And isn't true that the Serbian forces were acting upon the

13 orders and directions of the Crisis Stab of the SDS for the municipality

14 of Visegrad?

15 A. As far as I know, and I'm quoting the late Stanko Pecikoza, there

16 were two streams there that were active. One of them was the stream of

17 Stanko Pecikoza, and the other one was Perisic and Savovic's stream which

18 was a much more radical one.

19 Q. And the radical ideals ultimately won and Stanko Pecikoza was

20 murdered, was he not?

21 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, I object. This witness is here to

22 testify about incidents that he witnessed, and we're getting into

23 political questioning. I'm not sure this witness is competent to be

24 answering these questions, and no foundation has been laid as to his

25 knowledge of political parties or radical ideals, et cetera.

Page 604

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, why wouldn't he know about that? If he

2 doesn't know, he can say so.

3 MS. SARTORIO: Well, he's asking him about the Serb parties and

4 this witness is not a Serb, so I think some type of foundation should be

5 laid as to whether this witness knows or has any information about the

6 political parties on the Serb side.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think you have to be a Serb to know

8 about the Serb parties, but lay a foundation nonetheless, Mr. Alarid.

9 MR. ALARID:

10 Q. Mr. 97, of course, you weren't a member of the SDS party;

11 correct?

12 A. No. I was not a member of any political party, Your Honour.

13 Q. But you were an advocate for your people?

14 A. I was by my people. I was part of that people. I lived through

15 everything that my people had gone through.

16 Q. And this was in the small community of Visegrad, which was

17 heavily divided at the time, and that is a gross understatement because

18 it was at war?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And as being a member of that small community, even though you

21 may not have been a voting member of a party, you still kept abreast of

22 the news of the community. Would that be fair?

23 A. Yes. I was completely abreast of developments. My friends were

24 Serbs, Orthodox Serbs; and a friend and a neighbour of mine, Stanko

25 Pecikoza -- I mean, Stanko Pecikoza was also a friend and a neighbour of

Page 605

1 mine, so I got such information from him as far as the Serbian side was

2 concerned.

3 Q. And there was great turmoil when the radical side of the SDS took

4 control?

5 A. I'm not quite sure what kind of turmoil you're referring to. If

6 you could explain, please.

7 Q. The persecutions and molestation of the Muslim people.

8 A. Yes, that is true. The persecutions and harassment started with

9 the departure of the Uzice Corps from Visegrad, and this was sometime

10 around the 20th -- the 19th or 20th of May, 1992. The turmoil started

11 between people, between decent Muslims who were not considered members of

12 the SDA and who had come back from Gorazde and went back to their

13 workplaces, because Brane Savovic, the commander of Uzice Corps, had

14 promised them that nothing would happen to them and they should go back

15 to work in Kosovo Polje. And after the Uzice Corps left, there was a

16 great turbulence in Visegrad.

17 Q. But isn't it true that the Uzice Corps is what allowed the SDS

18 and Savovic to gain power in Visegrad?

19 A. Yes. He allowed them to take over control, to take over power,

20 but there were no executions. There were no public killings. There was

21 no torching of houses to that extent. SDA -- SDA functionaries would be

22 taken in for questioning in Visegrad; and when the Uzice Corps left, they

23 were immediately liquidated.

24 Q. It's almost as if the Uzice Corps knew what was going to happen

25 and allowed it to happen.

Page 606

1 A. Well, I will relate to you one case from my own life. My

2 girlfriend, my wife of today, she lived in town on Main Street in

3 Visegrad, and there were quite a few people still living in Visegrad at

4 that time. The members of the Uzice Corps who actually patrolled the

5 city and manned the check-points in and around Visegrad told us, "Get out

6 of Visegrad while we are still here, because woe are you when we leave."

7 So I myself and my girlfriend had the fortune to leave on the first

8 convoy which left safely from Visegrad towards Titovo Uzice. And that

9 was the first convoy that I heard through which people - I mean men -

10 were not taken off and led away.

11 Q. Now, with regard to my client and this case, you'd given a

12 statement of -- in March of 2001; correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And that statement has been introduced into evidence and you're

15 aware of that and you've verified that the allegations are true; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you also gave testimony for a brief time at the trial of

18 Mitar Vasiljevic; correct?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. And in that trial, you were asked questions only on a particular

21 incident surrounding Mr. Vasiljevic breaking his leg; correct?

22 MR. CEPIC: If I may assist, Your Honour. That material from the

23 are Vasiljevic case is under seal; that transcript, that portion of

24 transcript is under seal, so --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we should be in private session.

Page 607

1 Mr. Alarid, you must investigate these matters.

2 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, to be honest, I was going to propose

3 introducing the prior testimony - it is brief - into the record. I was

4 not going to mention any names. I understand why they were under seal,

5 it's because three VG witnesses were mentioned by number in that

6 transcript. And, of course, this witness had appropriate pseudonym sheet

7 according to the transcript, but I was not going to go into any names in

8 detail at all in reference to my questioning.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. We'll remain in public session.

10 MR. ALARID: And at this time, Your Honour, I would tender the

11 trial testimony of Mitar -- or excuse me, in the Mitar Vasiljevic trial

12 of VG-097 which has been uploaded as 1D000-0568. It represents the trial

13 testimony of 15 January 2002.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D8, under seal, Your Honours.

16 MR. ALARID:

17 Q. Now, as a little background to your testimony, you gave your

18 statement in anticipation of this testimony March of 2001; correct?

19 A. In March 2001, I gave my statement at the invitation of the

20 investigators from the ICTY about the developments that had happened in

21 the area of Kosovo Polje and my perception of the situation that I had

22 experienced at the beginning of the war in Visegrad and about everything

23 that was happening at that time, who were the actual actors in the

24 developments, who were these people who participated in those events.

25 And most of the questions had to do with the previous trial to a

Page 608

1 person -- to the person -- of the person that you just referred.

2 Q. That's Mitar Vasiljevic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, you indicated just now that this -- because my next question

5 was going to be: Why did you wait so long to talk to the ICTY or its

6 investigators? And you indicate that it was at their invitation. Can

7 you tell me how that came about?

8 A. Simply, the telephone rang and someone from the OTP called me and

9 asked me whether I would wanted to give my statement about the goings-on

10 in Visegrad and Kosovo Polje in 1992.

11 Q. How long before your statement did the OTP contact you via

12 telephone, and how did they get your number?

13 A. I don't know how they got my number, but there were perhaps some

14 ten or 15 -- it was some ten or 15 days. I cannot recall with precision.

15 Q. Why did you not contact the Prosecutors or the investigators

16 yourself given what you witnessed and testified to in your statement?

17 A. Why didn't -- why didn't I? I don't know. I came here also at

18 the invitation of the Tribunal. It is -- I'm duty-bound as a citizen to

19 respond to any such summons which will contribute towards justice and

20 truth.

21 Q. Now, your testimony at the Vasiljevic trial centred around a

22 meeting with an ambulance driver and some members of your community in

23 late 2000, approximately November 2000; correct? Isn't that true?

24 A. Actually, the -- the event took place. I think -- could you

25 kindly repeat the question? I'm not sure I exactly got it.

Page 609

1 Q. When did your meeting with the ambulance driver occur where you

2 all recalled Mitar Vasiljevic breaking his leg; the story of that at

3 least?

4 A. Yes --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me ask you: What's the relevance of this?

6 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, I believe that the testimony was

7 offered in a limited way in the Vasiljevic trial to surround the date of

8 the alleged leg break; and, also, the timing is interesting because

9 obviously three of the members of that meeting in the Vasiljevic case

10 were ultimately witnesses or named witnesses in the Vasiljevic trial. So

11 this amounts to him having communications with witnesses in the

12 Vasiljevic trial just a few months - four months, five months to be

13 approximate - prior to him giving testimony. To be honest, my curiosity

14 was about did his knowledge of the trial and the prosecution with these

15 named witnesses come from that meeting since it really wasn't discussed

16 in the cross-examination in the original transcript.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. But be very brief with it, and let's

18 move on to another topic.

19 MR. ALARID:

20 Q. And so isn't it true that just a few months before your

21 statement, you were speaking with all these named witnesses in the

22 Vasiljevic trial?

23 A. Not in the context that we are talking in right now, not in

24 relation to the subject matter that we are talking about right now.

25 Q. Well, at the time, the ambulance driver that you named was also

Page 610

1 looking into the disappearances of Visegrad residents?

2 A. The questions put to me had to do with members of my family. My

3 father, my grandfather, and my grandmother had disappeared during the

4 war. That's what I was interested in, but unfortunately I didn't get any

5 answers to those questions. My grandmother and my grandfather actually

6 disappeared somewhere in the vicinity, some 200 metres from Kosovo Polje

7 in 1992. Actually, my father disappeared in 1993 in the Foca prison and

8 all trace has been lost since, and there is no information about it

9 whatsoever apart from his statements which were given under duress and

10 which are being used in a brochure of the Belgrade institute for tracing

11 missing persons.

12 Would you not, sir, look for your own father?

13 Q. Absolutely, sir, and I'm sorry for your loss. I can't imagine

14 how it was to lose your entire family at such a young age.

15 Now, was anyone ever brought to justice for your father or your

16 grandparents?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you ever find out even the date of their disappearance or the

19 circumstances of their disappearance?

20 A. My father disappeared -- no, let me start like this. First,

21 the -- my grandparents disappeared. They disappeared in Kalatir [phoen].

22 This is in a home where my grandmother had quarters. This was towards

23 the end of June 1992, as they were very old and did not manage to get

24 out. They disappeared there, and I never found out anything. Stories

25 are being told that unknown persons had killed them and thrown them into

Page 611

1 the Drina River.

2 Q. How many people do you think Serbian radicals were operating in

3 the area of Visegrad? Was it more than a hundred?

4 A. Talking about radicals, I am talking about radical option. So I

5 distinguish people as those who wanted to kill over people and those who

6 did so with an appetite, with a vengeance, as it were, who didn't find it

7 hard at all to do that. So I could say that of such an ilk, there were

8 perhaps five -- or rather, let me rephrase this. That 5 or 10 per cent

9 of the Serbs were of this radical option and that the rest were not that

10 radical.

11 Q. But the Serbs overall gave support to the displacement of the

12 overall Muslim population, and this was with the consent of the Crisis

13 Staff and the leadership in Visegrad; correct?

14 A. As far as I know, my immediate neighbourhood. So I'm actually

15 referring to this from the actual home and all the houses up to Stanko's

16 house up in Kosovo Polje. These people actually bought some land from us

17 and built houses there. They were not that important in Kosovo Polje.

18 Actually, Kosovo Polje fed all of Visegrad. All these people worked in

19 Kosovo Polje. They would work the fields. They would be given by us the

20 chance to earn a livelihood because they had come from Zupa. So they

21 bought land there, and they made houses there. We helped them sow the

22 fields, but not all of them were actually in favour of that.

23 If you have my proposal, I would -- I have described what the

24 attitude of certain Serbs or the treatment at the hands of some Serbs

25 was. They were not at all equal. That is as far as I can say from what

Page 612

1 I can say about the situation in that particular section of Visegrad.

2 Q. And I'm sure you feel great rage against that small percentage of

3 the Serb population.

4 A. Well, let me tell you, at the time that it was actually

5 happening, I felt great rage. I really could not understand why that was

6 happening, because seeing at that we had remained there that meant that

7 we did not want to enter into any conflict.

8 I do not harbour that rage in me any more today, because to go

9 through a period where you have no food, when your neighbour Stanko has

10 to bring you food, the people take food away from you, attack you, that

11 you have to take shelter in different creeks and gulches, and what have

12 you. One night I spent the night at Stanko's house or below Stanko's

13 house. It was difficult to be a Muslim in 1992.

14 Terrible things were happening. Various stories came from

15 Visegrad about massive executions on the bridge, in apartments, the

16 taking away of men, the taking away of women to the hotel of Vilina Vlas,

17 to the Vilina Vlas hotel. In fact, murders occurred in Kosovo Polje

18 proper of persons who worked at the Vilina Vlas hotel. There was

19 looting. My house was looted. On a certain day in June 1992, 12 people

20 were imprisoned --

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure about this last

22 sentence.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They asked for gold and money and

24 dollars. When there was no more money to be found, they wanted to torch

25 the house. In fact, they put the tracksuit of my cousin on fire. But

Page 613

1 then my sister arrived because she had come back from work, from the

2 grain store in Visegrad, with -- with the money, with the proceeds of the

3 sales, and she had to hand that over, too.

4 Then in another house, that of Sefket Jamak, his wife who worked

5 at hotel Vilina Vlas, Fatima Jamak, was killed and her body set on fire.

6 When I exhumed her body with some friends, there was just a handful of

7 bones. Mr. Jamak also as well, when they torched four houses, he was

8 slaughtered, he couldn't flee, he was 90 years old.

9 I have stated all these things in my statements, sir. I think

10 that there would have been even more of such incidents had not Stanko

11 Pecikoza intervened with his men.

12 Q. And in your statement, you wanted to hold people responsible for

13 that, and that was namely Milan, Sredoje, and Mitar; correct?

14 A. Those are the people whom I saw in these places, sir, and I have

15 stated how many times I saw them. And they were also seen by other

16 neighbours, and those people, those men, were not unfamiliar to us. For

17 instance, Mr. Sefket Jamak was the teacher of the gentlemen, of the

18 accused. He knew very well who the people were who came to Kosovo Polje.

19 Mr. Stanko Pecikoza as well.

20 All the children in Kosovo Polje knew when the red Passat came,

21 who was driving it, who was chasing people around Kosovo Polje, who that

22 man was. That man felt so powerful that he just drove around in his red

23 Passat chasing people around.

24 Q. I put it to you: Are you sure you're not telling and didn't give

25 a statement about things you heard about instead of things you actually

Page 614

1 saw?

2 A. I said what I had seen. I said what I had heard, sir.

3 Q. Taking you back to what you gave in your statement, you

4 indicated, one, that you knew -- well, you just stated you knew all of

5 them by name; correct?

6 A. Can you tell me who "them" is?

7 Q. Mitar, Milan, and Sredoje. You knew them all by name for your

8 whole life as a local resident.

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. And Mitar was, in fact, a neighbour of yours, so you saw him

11 every day for 20 years. You saw him get old.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So there's no way you could ever mistake Mitar, because he was

14 the man that you had seen the most every day up until you had to go into

15 hiding; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the first thing you give in your statement -- well, first

18 thing, though, is you identified in your statement, though, that Milan

19 Lukic had a mole on his right side of his face and a dimpled chin. Do

20 you see a mole on the right side of Milan Lukic's face today?

21 A. I do. Take a look. Look at his cheek there. He does have a

22 mole.

23 Q. Does he have a dimpled chin?

24 A. He has a strong chin. That's what it has to do with.

25 Q. And, of course, we already understood that you sue Mitar

Page 615

1 Vasiljevic every day for 20 years, but you also said that Sredoje had

2 black hair. He does not have black hair today?

3 A. It looks black more than blonde.

4 Q. What about light brown with grey in it?

5 A. It's only natural to say that someone has darker hair and someone

6 has lighter hair, sir. You cannot convince me that I did not know the

7 gentleman when I had occasion for this same person, Mr. Sredoje Lukic, to

8 write a parking ticket for me and then he'd tear it up when he'd find out

9 who my father was.

10 Q. That indicates someone that is a good person instead of a bad

11 person. Would that be fair?

12 A. The situation before the war was different, and then it was

13 different from that during the course of the war.

14 Q. Now, Milan Lukic, you went to school with him, so you saw him

15 grow up from a young boy up until what age?

16 A. Oh, no. I did not go to school with him. We went to the same

17 school. There is one secondary school in Visegrad. There aren't any

18 others. I was a boy when Milan went to school in Visegrad. I already

19 mentioned yesterday who I used to see him with.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 MR. ALARID:

22 Q. How old was Milan the last time you ever saw him before June of

23 1992?

24 A. Around 16 or 17.

25 Q. And then so how many years expired before you saw him again in

Page 616

1 June of 1992?

2 A. About six or seven years; seven years, roughly.

3 Q. How had his appearance changed?

4 A. Well, like anyone, he looked more serious in the face. He was a

5 bit bigger. He had a short haircut like I did. Actually, his was even

6 shorter in 1992. He was more serious in terms of his appearance.

7 Q. How was his hair in -- when you last saw him before 1992?

8 A. The same hair he has today. Are you talking about the colour of

9 his hair?

10 Q. I'm talking about the length of his hair.

11 A. The length. He always had a short haircut.

12 Q. Did he always had the mole?

13 A. In my statement, as far as I can remember, I said that when I saw

14 him directly in Stanko Pecikoza's yard, he did have a mole. I cannot

15 recall each and every detail. What I said there was that I think that he

16 had a mole.

17 Q. So now you're saying you're not sure?

18 A. Well, read my statement.

19 Q. Let's talk about your statement. The first time you report with

20 certainty a date of seeing Mitar Vasiljevic, Milan Lukic, and Sredoje

21 Lukic acting together was the 2nd of June, 1992. Isn't that true?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You indicated that they had come around looking for soldiers;

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 617

1 Q. In a time of war, it would be ordinary practice to look for

2 soldiers. Wouldn't that be true?

3 A. Yes. But there weren't any soldiers there. This place was a

4 suburb, as it were. The Serb forces were on the right bank, and they

5 held it fully. There wasn't any clash in Kosovo Polje between the Serb

6 army or the Serb civilian population and the Muslim population in Kosovo

7 Polje.

8 Q. And on June 2nd, you saw five to six vehicles; correct? How many

9 people did that represent?

10 A. It was night if you look at the lights, and I said roughly five

11 or six vehicles from the direction of Visegrad moving towards Kosovo

12 Polje.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have about five minutes left, Mr. Alarid.

14 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, at this time, I would make a motion for

15 additional cross. If you reference the exhibit tendered by the state --

16 or the Prosecution this time, there's specifically one, two, three, four,

17 five, six, and roughly seven issues surrounding dates, of which I'd like

18 the opportunity to go through all seven of them before I tender the

19 witness, but I do not want to interrupt the cross-examination of my

20 colleagues. Since I think this is one of the main witnesses that

21 extrapolates on all the defendants, it's important for them to have their

22 own time.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much time would you be seeking?

24 MR. ALARID: Only 30 minutes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I'll grant that.

Page 618

1 MR. ALARID: Thank you, sir.

2 Q. Now, Mr. -- again, going back to the 2nd of June, you said it was

3 night and there were five to six vehicles; correct?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. All the way dark or like twilight?

6 A. I have to add something to the beginning of the story regarding

7 the 2nd of June. Will you allow me to do that?

8 Q. Absolutely, sir.

9 A. Thank you. Sometime in the evening hours before it got dark,

10 before night fell, a red car came from the direction of Visegrad. It

11 arrived in Kosovo Polje. The mentioned three persons were in the car,

12 and they did not create any kind of incident; that is to say, Sredoje

13 directly talked to my father in my yard. He asked him, "What are you

14 doing there?" And the other one said, "What are you doing there?" My

15 sister wanted to turn on the lights, and he said, "Don't turn on any

16 lights because you're giving a signal to the Red Berets." I mean, well,

17 they carried out a correct house search. They were looking for men.

18 They believed that soldiers were sleeping there. And that is where their

19 attitude was very correct as far as that particular incident is

20 concerned.

21 After that, well, they stayed there for about 15 or 20 minutes,

22 and then night fell and they left. They left.

23 Sometime before 10.00 p.m., or 2200 hours, whatever you prefer,

24 as I have already said, four or five or six vehicles, automobiles, came

25 from the direction of Visegrad. It doesn't really matter. They went

Page 619

1 down to Kosovo Polje. We clearly recognised over the loudspeaker the

2 voice of Mr. Milan Lukic.

3 Q. Wouldn't it be fair to say that voices sometimes sound different

4 when they come through a speaker or a megaphone?

5 A. Distinguished gentlemen, the only person who used loudspeakers in

6 Kosovo Polje disturbing the population was Mr. Milan Lukic, and I can

7 quote each and every one of the words he uttered because they remain

8 carved in my memory.

9 Q. Well, isn't it true that you recalled in your statement that this

10 voice said that you were supposed to surrender and put your money out or

11 they'll burn the house?

12 A. This is exactly the way it was: "The citizens, the locals from

13 Kosovo Polje, you have four minutes to hand over your valuables, your

14 money, your jewellery, dollars, marks, automobiles, and take everything

15 out into the road; otherwise, you will burn together with your houses."

16 Q. And this was coming from a convoy of five to six vehicles?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And, as promised, the cars turned around, came back, and three

19 houses were lit on fire; correct?

20 A. Four houses were set on fire. Out of the four, one burned down

21 and three we managed to extinguish because Stanko, together with his

22 brothers, assaulted these men and managed to put out the fires.

23 In one of these houses, we found the body of Abid Jamak. He was

24 around 90. He couldn't move around properly. His throat had been slit.

25 Q. And the thing is, though, you don't know who slit his throat, do

Page 620

1 you, of the five to six cars that were present?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. You said the megaphone was on a Lada, and what colour was this

4 Lada?

5 A. This Lada appeared as soon as the Uzice Corps got in, while the

6 Uzice Corps was in Visegrad. It was a burgundy coloured Lada. It was a

7 Lada caravan.

8 Q. And so you assumed it was the Lada that arrived that night

9 because it was otherwise dark?

10 A. I did not assume anything, because Milan had this megaphone in

11 the Passat and in the truck. I remember the incident when on the 1st of

12 June from the Zastava truck, as he was passing through Kosovo Polje

13 towards Visegradska Banja towards Sase down there, he was asking Murat

14 Sabanovic, beseeching him not to destroy the dam. And he was singing the

15 song "Who dare destroy the dam? Murat does." Then he said, "Murat,

16 please don't destroy the dam so that the Drina would still be there to

17 wash away what needs to be washed away."

18 Q. What day was that?

19 A. As far as I can remember, it was the 1st of June.

20 Q. Now, I bet the burnings and the Abid Jamak death enraged you.

21 A. Well, they didn't enrage me. They terrified me. I was expecting

22 the same thing to happen to me, too. There's no rage there. If I wanted

23 to be enraged, I would have followed Murat Sabanovic's army. I wasn't

24 raging against anyone. I'm a peace-loving man, and my family. Let me

25 tell you one thing: My family was involved in agriculture. No one

Page 621

1 belonged to any political party. There is no rage. There is fear. You

2 stay at home. You stay with everything you have, your movable and

3 immovable property, tractors, vehicles, cars, everything we had. No one

4 worked in a company. This is where we made all our money. My father or

5 my grandfather did not have a single year of service anywhere.

6 There was a great deal of fear involved. That's why we asked

7 Stanko to help us, and he did help us.

8 Q. But as far as you know, that night you don't know who killed

9 Mr. Jamak, do you?

10 A. Someone from that group killed him. Who it was, I don't know.

11 Q. And you don't know exactly who lit any fires, do you?

12 A. Sir, as soon as the cars entered the village, we all fled into

13 the surrounding cornfields, raspberry fields. We knew what awaited us.

14 What would you do at that point if you did not have an armed force to

15 oppose them?

16 They had come before that. They realised that there was no army

17 there, that there weren't any armed people there, that there were only

18 civilians, and then the group came back. I don't know except for what I

19 stated to you, that I recognised the voice of Milan Lukic.

20 Q. Now, following that you --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 MR. ALARID:

23 Q. -- June 4th; correct?

24 Following that, the next day you mention is June 4th when you

25 heard that someone in Milan's group had killed Fatima Jamak?

Page 622

1 A. Sir, the 3rd of June. Perhaps this has been mistranslated to

2 you.

3 Q. No, you are correct. That is what you said. But, again, this

4 was hearsay that you received this information; correct?

5 A. Yes, yes. My father and I fled from the house. We escaped,

6 jumped over the house, and hid in the raspberry feeds. My grandfather,

7 my mother, one of my sisters and two children, and my aunt who had come

8 from Zupa as a refugee with four members of her family, all of these

9 people were in the house. There were 11 or 12 of them there.

10 Q. And you only also heard that some valuables were taken, though,

11 by Milan Lukic but no violence occurred from your relatives; correct?

12 A. The very fact that the army broke in asking for jewellery,

13 valuables, money, that is violence in itself. Do you agree with that?

14 Q. I do. But the fact is that it's not necessarily a killing that

15 you witnessed; correct?

16 A. Not in that case.

17 Q. Now, the next case that you refer to in seeing Milan Lukic is

18 June 10th; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that surrounded the arrest of some workers; correct?

21 A. No one was arrested on that day; but on the following day, yes.

22 Q. And, regardless, those people that were arrested were, in fact,

23 released, were they not?

24 A. Yes. They were released, but the remaining six were not

25 released, the one that he had taken from town; and to this day, people do

Page 623

1 not know what happened to the six people who remained on the truck.

2 Q. But as far as you were aware, only the arrest was committed by

3 Milan Lukic, not necessarily a killing or an execution?

4 A. Sir, what I know is that this arrest occurred, and then Stanko's

5 brother and Mirko and some policemen from the public security station

6 from Visegrad, they intervened near Visegradska Banja and they set their

7 workers free. And all of them survived to this day, they all survive the

8 war. Two of them are my next-door neighbours. They live right next

9 door.

10 When they came back, they were talking about that, that there

11 were some other people there, too. There was a Susko, there was a

12 Suceska, and five other men, and they were taken to Hrtar Grad. That is

13 what these people told me later.

14 Q. But the question I asked you was: The person who arrested

15 someone wasn't necessarily the same person that killed someone?

16 A. You know what, sir? A young man who got off that truck told me

17 that when he got out, he was as big as I am now, and then Mr. Lukic

18 punched him in the stomach and said, "You're my son of a bitch."

19 Q. But he was not killed. He was only mistreated.

20 A. Well, he wasn't killed because Stanko's men intervened. In

21 Visegrad, Stanko was the only one who opposed Mr. Lukic, no one else.

22 Q. But, again, he was not killed. He was released. Isn't that

23 true?

24 A. Yes, yes. He was released, but there were others who were not

25 released and who are missing to this day, the men who remained on the

Page 624

1 truck. Read my previous statement, what happened and what threats were

2 issued against us.

3 Q. Now, starting June 15th, you saw on three separate occasions

4 Milan Lukic take people away and arrest them; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. On the 15th, the arrest of Muho Kurspahic occurred; correct?

7 A. Sir, it was Mujo Kurspahic.

8 Q. I apologise for my bad pronunciation, but, again, you don't know

9 who killed or, in fact, if Mr. Kurspahic was killed by Milan Lukic;

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, I don't know.

12 Q. And when a person is arrested, sometimes they're transferred to

13 someone else, and maybe that someone else mistreated or killed

14 Mr. Kurspahic?

15 A. Sir, distinguished lawyer, the persons who were taken away by the

16 mentioned gentleman, I have not heard of any one of them coming back.

17 Who did what afterwards, I don't know. I was being careful lest I be

18 caught myself.

19 Q. Now, the next date that you mention is June 18th, 1992, and

20 you're certain of that date. Why are you certain of that date?

21 A. Well, it was the date before we crossed the Drina River.

22 Q. And on that date, you were certain that you saw Milan Lukic,

23 Sredoje Lukic, and Mitar Vasiljevic. Isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you claim that in the presence of Mitar Vasiljevic and

Page 625

1 Sredoje Lukic, Milan Lukic killed someone, shot at a woman out of a

2 cherry tree; correct?

3 A. Well, they were higher up. I don't know whether they saw that,

4 but most probably they did hear the shot. They were 50 or 60 metres

5 away, because he probably noticed us, that we had fled in that direction.

6 Q. Does that mean Mitar Vasiljevic was closer to you than Milan

7 Lukic?

8 A. No. That's not what it means.

9 Q. But you certainly could identify Mitar Vasiljevic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And June 19th, that's a -- that's a significant day because

12 that's the day you crossed the Drina?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But, regardless, you continued to see Milan Lukic, Mitar

15 Vasiljevic on a regular basis between the 19th of June and the 17th or

16 18th of July?

17 A. Yes, sir. Whenever I looked at the right bank of the Drina

18 River, I would see these persons. We had to look out, because once when

19 we were crossing the Drina as we were going to get food, we had to go to

20 our own field to get potatoes, to gather what we needed in order to

21 survive. We got there and the situation was disastrous, lots of refugees

22 from all over.

23 We were crossing the Drina, and we took these things that we

24 needed; and on one such occasion, one of our men got killed. He was

25 killed early in the morning when he went to his house to get a few

Page 626

1 things. He was killed from the road. And we took certain measures to

2 reconnoiter the population that was in Hamzici. We needed to

3 reconnoiter. We would watch out for ambushes and whatever else because

4 when you're crossing, you don't know what you're going to come, across on

5 the other side, that is.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 MR. ALARID:

8 Q. You were in Hamzici between the 19th of June and the 18th of

9 July; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And during that time in Hamzici, you now also say you know that

12 you saw Mitar Vasiljevic with a megaphone in the area of Kosovo Polje

13 insulting Muslims?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you are certain of this?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, did you find it interesting when you were asked to testify

18 in the Vasiljevic trial that no one questioned you on your observations

19 of Milan Lukic and Mitar Vasiljevic, they only questioned you about this

20 meeting in 2000?

21 A. I cannot recall that anyone asked me anything in connection with

22 that?

23 Q. Considering that you had -- that's what your entire first

24 statement was about, did it surprise that they weren't asking you about

25 what happened with Mitar Vasiljevic?

Page 627

1 A. The OTP had my statement, and why the attorney did not ask me

2 those questions, that was up to him. I really don't know. I was

3 prepared to always give the same statement.

4 Q. Have you ever become aware of the fact that Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic

5 proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the date he broke his leg, by the

6 mayor, was actually June 14th, 1992?

7 A. Well, you know, sir, I do not believe those papers that someone

8 submits. You know, a state of war was such that people had four or five

9 IDs, four or five driving licenses. People wrote papers as they pleased

10 or issued papers as they pleased. Do you know from which direction

11 Visegrad was taken, from which direction Visegrad was entered, if you get

12 my meaning that is.

13 Q. I understand that, but the Trial Chamber --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone.

15 MR. ALARID:

16 Q. I understand that, but the Trial Chamber in this courthouse found

17 that they believed those documents; and, in fact, that makes it

18 impossible that you saw Mitar Vasiljevic between June 15th of 1992 and

19 July 18th of 1992.

20 A. Distinguished sir, I saw it, and you can interpret it anyway you

21 like. It is up to you.

22 Q. I give you the opportunity here to say that you were mistaken and

23 that you're not sure.

24 A. Distinguished sir, I did not make a mistake. I am a child who

25 was brought up in a decent family in Kosovo Polje at the crossroads

Page 628

1 between Visegrad and Visegrad-Zupa, and I know Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic well.

2 I described all the mistakes that he had committed and his perception or

3 my seeing him in those cases, and I'm not withdrawing my words.

4 Q. Well, in fact, you were asked to testify about when you heard the

5 ambulance driver laugh and you laughed as well about the accident of

6 Mitar Vasiljevic; and even there, you -- the recollection of the other

7 gentleman was that it was June 27th.

8 A. Yes, to the best of my knowledge.

9 Q. Therefore, at the very least, if he's correct, you -- it's

10 impossible that you could have seen Mitar Vasiljevic between June 27th

11 and July 18th.

12 A. I have said that in that period when on the 19th I crossed the

13 Drina up to the 17th or 18th when I watched and saw those men getting the

14 bodies off the truck in Sase. I believe that I've been sufficiently

15 clear.

16 Q. The question I asked you is that it's impossible that you could

17 have seen Mitar Vasiljevic between June 27th and July 17th or 18th based

18 on the other information; correct?

19 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, this has been asked and answered.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Move on. In fact, I believe you must be close

21 to the end of your time now. You have four minutes left.

22 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Would it be fair to say in your statements of the man --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 MR. ALARID:

Page 629

1 Q. In your original statement to the OTP, you only mentioned three

2 locals, Mitar, Milan, and Sredoje, correct?

3 A. Yes. There were also some other persons whom I didn't know.

4 Q. I bet it made you angry that locals would point out and know who

5 Muslims were and then turn over that information to other people to maybe

6 be persecuted by other radicals.

7 A. That is not possible, because the Muslim villages and the Serb

8 villages were always divided, or they were either mixed or divided. One

9 knew where the Muslim section was and where the Serb section was. People

10 from Visegrad knew where every -- each and every house was and whose

11 house it was. They knew where they would go to because they had occasion

12 to come there also before that.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. ALARID: I'd ask the court usher to bring up what's been

15 marked as 1D00-3101 to the monitor, please.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Could the counsel please repeat the number.

17 MR. ALARID: 1D00-3101.

18 Q. Do you recognise this person?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. Would you consider that -- how old is Milan Lukic here?

21 A. Seventeen, 16 or 17 years of age. Perhaps a bit more than that.

22 Q. This is not short hair, is it?

23 A. No.

24 MR. ALARID: Could the court usher please bring up 1D00-3103,

25 please.

Page 630

1 Q. Do you recognise the gentlemen in this picture?

2 A. No. I cannot remember.

3 Q. So you cannot identify Milan Lukic in this photo?

4 A. No.

5 MR. ALARID: Could the court usher please put on the screen

6 1D00-3104, please.

7 Q. Do you recognise Milan Lukic in this photo?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Who is he? Which -- identify him from the photo, please, from

10 left to right.

11 A. This one in the middle between -- the second one on this side.

12 You can only see his head.

13 Q. Do you -- and how old is he at this time?

14 A. I can't say.

15 Q. Is his hair longer or short?

16 A. It is shorter here.

17 MR. ALARID: And, please, if the court usher could bring

18 1D00-3110, please.

19 Q. Do you recognise Milan in this photograph?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And identify him, please.

22 A. This lad who is in the lap of this girl.

23 Q. Do you see a mole on Milan Lukic's face in this photograph?

24 A. You can't see it clearly.

25 MR. ALARID: Could the court usher please bring up 1D00-3113,

Page 631

1 please.

2 Q. Do you recognise the gentleman in this photo?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Can you see a mole on the right side of his face?

5 A. Well, sir, right here on this side there is something like a

6 mole, but it is not a sufficiently clear photograph.

7 MR. ALARID: Could the court usher please bring up 1D00-3116.

8 Q. Do you recognise the gentleman in this photograph?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you see the right side of his face clearly?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Isn't it true there's not a mole on the right side of his face?

13 A. There is something in the shape of a mole on the right side of

14 his face. You can look at him. You can see on his face. It is markedly

15 there.

16 Q. Are you sure that's not a shadow?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry.

18 Witness, when you say you can see it on his face, do you mean the

19 face of the person in the photograph or the face of the person in court?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person present in the court,

21 because these are very old photographs.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Mr. Alarid, you have gotten the better of

23 the Chamber. You're now well beyond the time. You have to manage your

24 time more efficiently.

25 MR. ALARID: I apologise, Your Honour. I know this is an

Page 632

1 important witness. In an identification case, sometimes we do have to go

2 step-by-step in these things. And with all due respect, I think the time

3 allotted by the Court is a bit short to get that done in a practical

4 manner, especially with the delay of translation and things like that.

5 And this witness has gone into explanations about his past that I did not

6 want to interrupt, because I felt that although somewhat non-responsive

7 to the questions, it was important that he make these statements.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: But you have come to an end now. We have to

9 adjourn now for the break. Are you at an end or do you still have other

10 matters on which you wish to cross-examine?

11 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, basically, for the Court's

12 edification, I have 23 photographs of Milan Lukic at different stages. I

13 haven't shown any short-haired photos yet, which might put it into

14 perspective, but I respect the Court's situation.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: How many have you shown so far?

16 MR. ALARID: I believe I've shown five or six. I'm not sure.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Six I'm told. Very well. It is a case that

18 turns on identification and I will allow you to show them, but it may be

19 that you should have done that earlier if you attach so much importance

20 to this aspect of the case.

21 MR. ALARID: I apologise, Your Honour. We just got these

22 photographs last week and there really wasn't an ability to get those.

23 We had to scan them in, of course, and I apologise.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.

Page 633

1 --- On resuming at 10.34 a.m.

2 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, may I say something before --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Sartorio.

4 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

5 The Prosecution objects to showing this witness these

6 photographs. These photographs were not on the exhibit lists for either

7 one of these accused that was submitted to the Prosecution yesterday.

8 This morning's the first time I was handed a CD of these photographs. I

9 have not had time to review them in order to be able to do any kind of

10 meaningful redirect, and the rule is that we're supposed to have the

11 exhibit list before they begin their cross-examination and for the very

12 purpose so that we can review the documents. So I let it go in the

13 beginning. I thought there were only going to be a couple of

14 photographs. But if he's going to show 23 photographs, I'm going to

15 object at this point.

16 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I only --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.

18 MR. ALARID: I only intend to show 13 of the 23 we tendered on

19 the list. Of course, the Prosecution can tender the rest if they feel

20 it's relevant. I think it's most important to point out, though, that

21 there is no showing of prejudice because simply the witness can say

22 whether he recognises him or did not. And I believe on six -- five of

23 the six photographs tendered, he indicated that he recognised Milan

24 Lukic; and, foundationally speaking, he was also able to place that into

25 a context of time in general.

Page 634

1 [Trial Chamber and Senior Legal Officer confer]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why didn't you advise the Prosecution of the --

3 or transmit the photographs to the Prosecution?

4 MR. ALARID: Because I had to buy a scanner for the office and we

5 scanned them in, and we had just put them in order as best we could of

6 date, of kind of feeling what his age because although we didn't even

7 know exactly. In the grand scheme of things, I think from a photographic

8 perspective you don't need to prepare for a photograph really. Like I

9 said, either the witness can identify him or he can't; and, so, from that

10 fact, it's not a document which requires any kind of real research. And

11 in terms of preparing for direct examination -- or, excuse me, redirect

12 examination, I think that that somewhat is not necessary considering the

13 fact that is a photograph. And I actually look at it as a way to prep

14 the witness in some way, but, in fact, he has shown that he has

15 recognised five of the six photographs.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I have a copy of the order made by the

18 Chamber which requires the Defence to provide the Prosecution with the

19 list of documents and materials it intends to use in court during

20 cross-examination at the commencement of the examination-in-chief of that

21 witness. So you are in breach of that rule, but I note that the case is

22 about identification. Although you may wish to consider, Mr. Alarid, to

23 what extent your case is advanced by these photographs which apparently

24 show the accused at a very early age, a relatively early age.

25 I will not allow you to show 13. You may show another six of the

Page 635

1 photographs.

2 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: And please bear in mind that in future, the

4 Chamber intends to apply the order that it made quite strictly.

5 MR. ALARID: And I appreciate the Court's concerns, Your Honour;

6 and, normally, I would kind of hopefully be more on top of things. I

7 guess the issue is just because of the way in defence has kind of

8 manifested from my appointment. It's sort of always been running behind,

9 but I apologise.

10 Q. Mr. 97 --

11 MR. ALARID: Or, actually, the court usher, could you please call

12 up 1D00-3108, which will be the seventh photograph tendered to the

13 witness.

14 Q. Do you recognise that gentleman in this photograph, sir?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. You recognise Milan Lukic, and can you see the right side of his

17 face?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Isn't true that there is no apparent mole on the right side of

20 his face in this photograph?

21 A. Distinguished sir, distinguished Trial Chamber, the gentleman

22 does have a mole and you can see it on his face right here in the

23 courtroom, in order to cut short this discussion.

24 Q. Then the question is at 16 or 17, which you identified him in

25 this clothing and the earlier photograph, as well as today and right now,

Page 636

1 at 16 or 17 he did not have a mole?

2 A. May I ask the Trial Chamber to read the context of that sentence

3 of mine; namely, how I described Mr. Lukic, whether I described him with

4 a definite certainty, or did I say that I thought he had a mole on the

5 right side of his face. And now when you look at Mr. Lukic, you will

6 convince yourselves that he does have a mole on his right cheek.

7 MR. ALARID: Could the court usher please enter 1D00-3117,

8 please.

9 Q. Do you recognise the gentleman in this photograph?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Can you see the right side of his face?

12 A. Yes. But it is a very hazy photograph.

13 MR. ALARID: Could the court usher please zoom in?

14 Q. Isn't it true that there's no mole on the right side of his face?

15 A. Well, what you're showing me now, he has number of moles,

16 actually.

17 Q. Isn't it true his hair is long?

18 A. Yes. It is true that his hair is long.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you just said that, as a matter of

20 fact, "he has number of moles." Well, can you point to the moles that

21 you say he has and that you see?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this particular photograph.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I'm asking you to point.

24 Is he able to point? Can we put it on the -- yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Distinguished Trial Chamber, take a

Page 637

1 look at these spots. This is not a good photograph. Well, here. See

2 here and see here? They are displaying old photographs which are not of

3 sufficiently good quality. Here also.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 MR. ALARID:

6 Q. Sir, are you sure that that's not simply pixilation because we

7 zoomed in on the photograph?

8 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

10 MS. SARTORIO: That's the point here. He's asking the witness to

11 speculate basically because they aren't good photographs. So he's asking

12 the question that actually begs the question of showing these photographs

13 to this witness.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.

15 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I believe that -- I mean, it's just

16 simply the best we have. I mean, it is what it is, and I expect the

17 Trial Chamber can take appropriate weight given the fact that they

18 compare the photos, they can zoom in, they can back out, when they're

19 making their deliberations as to the weight of this testimony given by

20 this witness. Given the quality, I can only say they are what they are.

21 And with all due respect to the Prosecution, we would feel that --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You are right. We have to make our minds about

23 this.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, the Trial Chamber is of the view

Page 638

1 that nothing is being gained by looking at any more of these photographs.

2 We have seen enough of the photographs, and the point that you have

3 made or the point that you wish to make would have been made. It's for

4 the Chamber to make up its mind and determine what weight it is going to

5 attach to these photographs.

6 What I do want the witness to do, however, is that since he has

7 repeatedly said in court that he can see a mole on the face of the

8 accused who is in court today, I would like to have the accused's face

9 shown on the video and to ask the witness to identify the mole which he

10 says he has seen from a distance of perhaps ten yards, ten or 12 yards.

11 Can you, Witness, mark with a circle or circle what you say is

12 the mole on the face of the accused Milan Lukic? Circle it, circle

13 whatever you identify as the mole.

14 Oh, it's not possible, I understand, technically.

15 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

17 MS. SARTORIO: We have this -- almost this exact photograph in a

18 P exhibit, number 9, if it would be beneficial for the Court to have that

19 brought up.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, yes. Let that photograph be brought up.

21 MS. SARTORIO: P10. I believe the left side is P9. So it would

22 be Exhibit P10.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

24 the usher to turn this on for me. [Marks]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have encircled what you say is a mole on the

Page 639

1 face of the accused.

2 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, we would like to tender this as an

3 exhibit, our first exhibit. I know I have been naming other photographs,

4 but I think it's appropriate since the witness has marked this particular

5 photograph. It doesn't go back in batched as the same Prosecution.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We admit that.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D9, Your Honours.

8 MR. ALARID: Could the court usher return to the previous photo,

9 please, though? One more question on that, and that was 1D00-3117.

10 Could we re-zoom to the face slightly.

11 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. 97, that there is no dimple in the chin of

12 Milan Lukic?

13 MS. SARTORIO: I object to the form of the question.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: On what basis?

15 MS. SARTORIO: Well, he can ask whether he sees anything in this

16 photograph, but --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is cross-examination. He can lead.

18 MS. SARTORIO: All right. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: He can lead.

20 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honour, my case manager said there was an

21 issue of the translation of "chin," and I again ask the witness.

22 Q. Is there a dimple on the chin of Mr. Milan Lukic in this

23 photograph?

24 A. In this photograph, it cannot be seen clearly. This is sort of a

25 digital photograph. You see there are so many things that are unclear in

Page 683

1 Witness, did you say that it was a curfew, it was night, and you

2 couldn't see?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise. Perhaps I was

4 speaking a bit too fast when I was speaking. I am going to start out now

5 by saying what it was I saw during the course of the day and who I came

6 across.

7 When I was in Pionirska Street, I saw Sredoje Lukic in uniform.

8 He was pushing three persons in front of him. I saw Milan Lukic armed.

9 There were a lot of people in the street, mostly old people, old men and

10 women. For the most part, it was women and children. It was a column of

11 people. I myself did not know what this meant and where they were taking

12 them through Pionirska Street. It was noisy. There were a lot of armed

13 men. There were men and women from neighbouring villages. On the left

14 and right-hand side of the street, they were dragging people out and

15 taking them up Pionirska Street, from the centre of town up Pionirska

16 Street.

17 There was no shooting in the street. There was noise, clamour.

18 People were being pushed. There was a mass of people there, many people,

19 over 60 people.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecutor, please.

21 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness VG-115, I have to interrupt you a moment. We followed

23 this statement or this description, this preliminary description of the

24 event. I would like to come back on certain identification points which

25 are essential.

Page 684

1 You said that you had seen Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic and

2 other people, other persons. Could you give us, as much as your memory

3 will allow, the names of the other people who were accompanying Milan

4 Lukic and Sredoje Lukic in this operation, if I may say?

5 A. Yes. I saw Jovo Lipovac. I can describe him for you. He is a

6 short man, baldish, very short. I saw Gojko Lukic, Milan Lukic's

7 brother. He's Milan Lukic's older brother. I saw Slobodan Roncevic, a

8 young man. He seemed to be tall. Originally, he hailed from Montenegro,

9 and he was studying in Novi Sad. I saw the old Mitar Vasiljevic who had

10 died a natural death. I knew him very well. He didn't have an eye. I

11 saw Planincic, the policeman. Razinoda was his nickname. He was thin

12 and tall. I saw Caruga. That was his nickname. I don't know his name

13 and surname. I can describe him. He had acne on his face, and he always

14 wore leather gloves with the fingers open. I saw Zoran. I can't

15 remember (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 Q. Thank you, VG-115. These people whose names you have mentioned,

21 according to what you said, you said that these people were supervising

22 the civilians and those people on the Pionirska road.

23 A. Yes. They were helping to have people grouped in a column so

24 that they could line them all up and take them along Pionirska Street on

25 the left-hand and the right-hand side. People were afraid because the

Page 685

1 members of Milan's group were all armed. They had rifles, grenades.

2 That's the way they walked around all the time, in uniform, unshaven,

3 dishevelled. I was afraid of them, too.

4 Q. Could you tell us how Milan Lukic was dressed, first of all, and

5 then tell us how Sredoje Lukic was dressed, please?

6 A. Milan Lukic, well, I saw his trousers. He had a uniform. Please

7 don't hold this against me, it's been many years now. Milan Lukic looked

8 very nice when he was young. He was not very old, Milan. I'd say that

9 he was 24 or 25, not more than that. He was tall and thin. He looked

10 very nice. He was armed then, had a lot of weapons. Milan was about

11 seven or eight metres away from me on the other side. I was not of any

12 interest to him at that moment.

13 One woman managed to flee from that column. She went towards

14 town. I believe that she lives to this day. She recognised me, and I

15 recognised her.

16 Q. You mention this woman. Could you give us her name, please? And

17 what's become of her, do you know?

18 A. The woman went in the direction of town. Her name is Hanka

19 Cosic. She also lived for many years in Pionirska Street with her

20 husband and two children. Her husband was killed in Visegrad;

21 Ms. Hanka's husband, that is.

22 Q. Did Milan Lukic tell him [as interpreted] something while he was

23 assembling the group of civilians up mentioned? Did Milan Lukic say

24 anything to this woman?

25 A. Milan Lukic was making noise, shouting at everyone. He was

Page 686

1 shouting after her, too; however, luckily for her, she didn't pay any

2 tension. She went in the direction of town, so she got out of Pionirska

3 Street. They were leading people up Pionirska Street; whereas, she went

4 down towards the centre.

5 Q. You said also that you saw Sredoje Lukic. Could you describe --

6 A. I can describe him. I can describe Sredoje Lukic. Sredoje Lukic

7 was in front of the Smajic house. There is this big terrace there where

8 I was supposed to go. I was supposed to pass that way, and he was taking

9 three people in front of himself. He was in camouflage uniform, he was

10 armed, and he had some stocking on his head.

11 Q. After having assembled these people, what did Milan Lukic do

12 after that from your vantage point? What did you -- what were you able

13 to see until?

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 Below the terrace, there are two garages. There was silence, and

20 all of a sudden -- well, it was already dark. All of a sudden, there was

21 a lot of gunfire that was heard, a lot of screaming that was heard, a big

22 explosion. Everybody had to hear that. The entire neighbourhood had to

23 hear that, all of Pionirska Street. Perhaps it was heard all the way

24 down to the centre of town. Soon smoke could be seen. I could see that

25 from all sides, from all windows. Ahead, in front, on the sides, you

Page 687

1 could see smoke. You could see fire. The smoke had a bad smell.

2 I know that I was running around the house like a mad woman from

3 one window to the other. We had been ordered to keep rooms dark, not to

4 turn on lights; whereas, I was looking in all directions.

5 There was a loud fire. There was smoke billowing up in the air.

6 There was explosions. Lots of shots could be heard.

7 They had planned for that day. It had all been prepare. They

8 could not have rounded up the people, that many people, such large crowd

9 in a matter of five minutes.

10 Q. Thank you. You have described to us already what happened to

11 these people, but could you tell us what happened after they were led

12 down the Pionirska Street? Were they led up or down the street? The

13 plumes of smoke that you saw came from which direction?

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 Q. And you have told us that you saw the flames.

23 A. Yes. One could see flames, high flames, and the smoke billowing

24 up in the air; and everything could be heard because there was such a

25 loud noise, such a loud explosion, sound of explosions.

Page 688

1 Q. You saw the flames. What distance was there from where you were

2 and where the flames and the smoke was coming from approximately?

3 A. There is a cross-street leading there, and there is the distance

4 as the crow flies. I cannot tell the exact distance. I know where the

5 two houses, each one of them, were. There was a byroad, a detour, in

6 this settlement. So the distance could have been under a hundred metres,

7 actually. That's in my estimation.

8 Q. Thank you. And what did you do after that, after having seen all

9 you saw which you have just described to us?

10 A. That night I remained in that house. I walked around. There was

11 still smoke going up in the air. It reeked. One could smell this

12 strange smell in the air.

13 Previously, I had the occasion to sense the smell of houses

14 burning, the woodwork of the houses and such, but this time you could

15 smell the smell of human flesh burning. So that night I just remain in

16 the house. There was nothing I could do. There was nowhere I could go.

17 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see that it is a

18 quarter to 2.00. I need just a few extra minutes to finish off on this

19 subject.

20 Q. As far as you know, were there any survivors after massacre, if

21 one can call it that?

22 A. According to what people said and according to what I saw the

23 next morning, my next door neighbour was taking some water in a plastic

24 bucket that would have been there. There probably were some survivors;

25 but later when I talked to some people in Sarajevo, from what I -- what I

Page 689

1 heard from them was that two witnesses had survived. I also learned that

2 a small baby, three or four days old, had also been burned.

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just say something, please?

16 Just one word?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise to you.

19 Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic and all the members cannot refute this.

20 They cannot say that this did not happen. They cannot say that they did

21 not do this. I didn't do that. My family didn't do that. The other

22 neighbours did not do that. This was done by the Lukic cousins with

23 their members.

24 If you bring the surviving witnesses, they will prove this much

25 better than my tears. Thank you.

Page 690

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. We will adjourn now until

2 tomorrow morning at 10 minutes to 9.00.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 28th day

5 of August, 2008, at 8.50 a.m.