080828ED

Page 693

1 Q. Very well. So I see you will be up to answering the last

2 questions I have to ask you in this case. I'd like to come back on the

3 events concerning the torching which took place in the Pionirska Street

4 and for this, Mr. President, could we go into private session because of

5 the information which shouldn't be made public?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

7 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 694

1 where you observed the flames, fire.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Then could you put an arrow, mark an arrow, on the

4 Pionirska Street, a few centimetres, perhaps 5 centimetres, to show

5 Pionirska Street. If you remember --

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Thank you. Could you indicate at what place you saw the smoke.

8 Where was the smoke coming out from? If you don't remember, never mind.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could this be

12 admitted for the Prosecution?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is admitted as P31,

15 Exhibit P31.

16 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, perhaps

17 it would be useful to know what was the house which was torched. Maybe

18 you could ask the witness what was the house which was torched. Thank

19 you.

20 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Witness VG-115, could you indicate, in case you know, which was

22 the house which was torched and where you saw all the smoke coming from

23 and the fire and the flames which you saw.

24 A. On the screen or on the photograph?

25 Q. On the photograph, please.

Page 695

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. President, we shall

4 continue our questions about the incident in Pionirska Street.

5 Q. Witness VG-115, the next day after the fire took place in the

6 Pionirska Street, did Milan Lukic visit you, (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 Q. What was his appearance? How was he dressed?

10 A. Milan wore a camouflage uniform; he was armed, as always; and he

11 had a bandaged hand, one of his hands had a bandage.

12 Q. Do you remember which hand had this bandage?

13 A. I do not remember. Certainly it was only one hand. I'm sorry,

14 but I can't remember which.

15 Q. Right. Did he explain to anybody why he was wearing this

16 bandage?

17 A. Well, normally people asked him, What's that with your hand? And

18 Milan answered, I injured my hand last night.

19 Q. When you say "people," do you remember who he spoke to in the

20 company?

21 A. Everybody there knew Milan, both the men and the women. I knew

22 him personally also but I never asked him about his hand, so I could not

23 tell the Court what had happened to his hand but he said himself that he

24 had injured it on the previous night.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 696

1 Witness VG-115, we shall now speak of another incident, an

2 incident which happened before that. In 1992, I would like to ask you if

3 you remember that Milan's group (redacted) and pushed out

4 Muslims, asked Muslims to quit --

5 MR. ALARID: Your Honours, I would object that this is leading.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: You cannot lead on matters of this kind. It is

7 leading. Reformulate.

8 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Did it happen in 1992 that Milan Lukic (redacted)

10 MR. ALARID: Objection, leading.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll allow that. He can ask whether Milan Lukic

12 (redacted)

13 What he did, just ask what he did when he came there.

14 Give the answer first. Witness, did Milan Lukic (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milan Lukic (redacted)

17 often, but one day, as the gentleman mentioned in his question, they were

18 making plans. (redacted) I saw

19 a convoy of cars and people (redacted) and they wanted to

20 take away (redacted) There were

21 women and men alike. (redacted)

22 (redacted) and I was able to warn many people to

23 hide anywhere, that something bad was going on, and I felt that they

24 would be taken away (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 697

1 (redacted) But Milan Lukic was able to find

2 three (redacted) and take them away. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Thank you.

6 You must take over from here, Mr. Ossogo.

7 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. When Mr. Milan Lukic arrived with his group, did he speak to you

9 or did one of the members of his group speak to you?

10 A. It was a long time ago and I don't remember well, but somebody

11 (redacted) and shouted and asked questions about where the

12 other people were. It's -- they seemed to suspect me, but it was my duty

13 to protect those people. They were not armed and they -- without any

14 protection. They were simply doing their jobs. They were not active in

15 politics. And they needed shelter, they needed to be saved, (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 When they were taken to the cars and driven away, soon after that

18 we heard shots and I suspected that they were killed on the new bridge

19 over the Drina, the newly built bridge. It was at day-time,

20 unfortunately, they never even respected the curfew. They didn't care

21 whether it was night or day, whether people would see or hear them or

22 not. They would go about their business at any time. (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 698

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted) I soon understood that in the town of

6 Visegrad among the Muslim population much injustice had been done to

7 them. They were people who did not take part in the war. They were

8 civilians, unprotected people, elderly people, women, girls, children.

9 The Lukics did not fight for their territory, the Serbian republic. They

10 were making massacres, killing innocent population. In June, July,

11 August, after that there was no single Muslim left in Visegrad, no

12 children, no elderly people. I'm sorry, I'm sitting here without being

13 able to prove that with photographs. There were shootings, executions,

14 every day on the Drina after 3.00 in the afternoon. Over a hundred men

15 from the Varda company from town, from the surrounding villages, on a

16 daily basis. The Drina was all foamy with blood --

17 Q. I have to stop you there. Thank you very much, Witness VG-115.

18 I have to stop you there. We will continue the examination on one

19 specific aspect which you observed concerning the activities of

20 Milan Lukic and his cousin, that was the torching at Bikavac. Was there

21 a fire in the area of Bikavac to your knowledge and what year was that?

22 A. That also happened in late June 1992, after the incident in

23 Pionirska Street, after the great massacre in the house of Adem Omeragic

24 and there was a huge massacre in Bikavac in the house of Meho Aljic, (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 699

1 Q. Could you describe what you observed in this incident?

2 A. Yes, I can. It was in the afternoon. I was -- I cared much

3 about my family house in which I was left alone. And I cared a lot about

4 the old married couple, the Subasics (redacted)

5 Pasan and Aisa Subasic. Their houses were (redacted) nearby in Bikavac.

6 (redacted) Those two --

7 that elderly couple were left alone. They were over 80 years of age and

8 I went to see them often to be -- to bring them some food because you

9 couldn't buy anything. All the shops were closed, you couldn't go to any

10 shop and buy anything. And on that day I went to my house which had been

11 newly furbished to -- for living in. (redacted)

12 (redacted) I went to my house to fetch some coffee,

13 sugar and washing powder to take them to that elderly couple to help

14 them. Before that, I met them and they told me how they were hiding

15 because they were living in a newly built building. There was also a

16 wartime shelter there, and they were saying, We've been hiding for days

17 in your house with many neighbours from the neighbourhood.

18 Upon returning from my house I saw a convoy of vehicles. They

19 couldn't reach the houses because the road was, or rather, the street was

20 very narrow, not wide enough for cars to pass. I recognised

21 Milan Lukic's car and the cars of other members of his groups. They had

22 taken those cars from Muslims. There were many cars and many people, and

23 there were many people from Gostilja who I recognised and they were all

24 being taken to the house of Meho Aljic, (redacted)

25 (redacted) And then I went to a small orchard, on

Page 700

1 the right-hand side there were plum trees, small plum trees.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Now, Mr. Ossogo, Mr. Ossogo.

14 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have different approaches to how witnesses

16 are to be led. I don't particularly favour the narrative approach, where

17 a witness goes on and on and on and on. I'd much rather the approach

18 where counsel asks the witness a question, the witness answers shortly,

19 and then another question is asked. I also believe that in this case

20 that approach would have an additional advantage in relation to a witness

21 who is obviously distraught.

22 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

23 In fact, I wanted to interrupt the witness, but there can be a

24 consequence which is that the logic of the ideas -- the witness is indeed

25 traumatised, as you may have noticed more than once, and several times

Page 701

1 since she arrived here we have been in private session and outside this

2 chamber we noticed that the witness was distressed and maybe this could

3 have consequences on her health and have a problem about what she wants

4 to say. But I agree with you that this approach -- another approach

5 would be better to have the proper answers.

6 Now the narrative is finished, I could ask questions.

7 Q. Thank you, Witness VG-115, for what you've just said. Could we

8 come back on one aspect what you observed before we go on. Could you

9 indicate to us where you were when the group of Milan Lukic went to the

10 house of Mr. Meho, did you say, Meho Aljic?

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted) from where did you

13 see the arrival of the -- the entry of the group of Milan Lukic as you

14 indicated?

15 A. They were standing on this very narrow road in front of me. If

16 you have photographs, I can show you that road. They were standing in

17 front of me. There was no way I could bypass them.

18 Q. You spoke about a photograph. We are going to come to that. Did

19 you recognise the members of that group?

20 A. I could recognise the members of the group because I had come to

21 know them very well (redacted) Among them there

22 were also citizens of Visegrad.

23 Q. Could you give their names?

24 A. I shall do my best to remember them all. Milan Lukic was there,

25 Sredoje Lukic, so Milan Lukic with his father, Mile; with his brother

Page 702

1 Gojko Lukic; then Niko Vujicic was there, a policeman in the town of

2 Visegrad; Veljko Planincic, a police officer in the town of Visegrad who

3 was called Razinoda; then Radoje Simsic (redacted) an

4 elderly man was also there; Oliver Krsmanovic who was a haulier from

5 Visegrad was also there; Caruga from Pljevlja was there, I don't know his

6 first and last names; then Slobodan Roncevic was there (redacted)

7 (redacted) he

8 was a student from Novi Sad who hailed from Montenegro. Then there was

9 Mitar whom -- Mitar Vasiljevic, Mitar -- the senior Mitar; then there was

10 Knezevic who didn't have an eye; there was Zoran from the vicinity of

11 Belgrade from Ostruznica; then there was -- whether he was Vasiljevic or

12 Simsic I don't know for sure but I know him well and I can recognise him

13 well. There are other members of Lukic's group whose names I cannot

14 remember but whom I could recognise.

15 Q. What did they do after that? You saw them and what did they do?

16 A. I went to the right side. There was a small fence which I could

17 go over to go into a plum orchard. This path I could take in order to

18 avoid the road. They were taking the people to Meho Aljic's house.

19 There were people from the village of Gostilja whom I recognised there.

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted) I don't know

22 what his name was, an elderly man. They were pulling the door of the

23 garage of Meho Aljic's house and they actually blocked the house door

24 with the garage door, they placed it under the window of the living-room

25 which was facing the road.

Page 703

1 I could make out very well (redacted) who

2 entered the house of Meho Aljic among the last people to enter. Milan

3 was shouting and yelling at them and these were the last people I

4 remember --

5 Q. I have to interrupt you, Witness VG-115. I would like to ask

6 you, at that stage did you see people who were obliged, forced, to go

7 into this house of Meho Aljic?

8 A. Yes, I did see them.

9 Q. Could you identify them for the Bench, as far as you can

10 remember.

11 A. I can recall well. Do I have to say all the names of this

12 family, of the members of this family right now?

13 Q. If you could, please.

14 (redacted)

15 It was the Turjacanin family, Djulka Turjacanin; her daughter

16 Zehra Turjacanin --

17 Q. I have to interrupt you again. I gave you a sheet of paper

18 yesterday and the second sheet of paper had a pseudonym. The first name

19 you mentioned is VG-114.

20 A. Can I proceed?

21 Q. You may continue.

22 A. So it is the Turjacanin family. Djulka Turjacanin; VG-114,

23 Zehra Turjacanin, I'm not quite sure what her married last name is; and a

24 small daughter of Djulka Turjacanin (redacted) and she

25 was mentally challenged, she couldn't think properly and she couldn't

Page 704

1 speak properly, she was 10 at that time. I have forgotten the child's

2 name. And Zehra Turjacanin also had a small child who was there and this

3 was the last family to enter the house of Meho Aljic.

4 Q. Yes, we'll pause here, VG-114 is Zehra Turjacanin and not Djulka.

5 Could the transcript please be corrected?

6 You may continue and give the names of the people which you saw

7 forced to go into the house of Meho Aljic.

8 A. I'm sorry, I did not quite understand the question. I was

9 focusing on VG-114 and therefore I didn't quite get to your question.

10 Would you please be so kind as to ask me again.

11 Q. Yes, certainly --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

13 MR. CEPIC: I apologise, just one technical issue, do we have

14 redaction of the name here because it would be in public, this VG-114

15 is --

16 THE REGISTRAR: We are still in private session.

17 MR. CEPIC: Okay, because it is protected witness and we have a

18 full name now in the transcript.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are in private session.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, we are in private session.

21 MR. CEPIC: I apologise.

22 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Yes, Witness VG-115. I will repeat my question. Could you

24 please continue and give us the names of the families you knew and who

25 were forced to go into the house of Meho Aljic. You mentioned the chief

Page 705

1 of the family, you mentioned VG-114. So please could you continue and

2 give us the names of the people you recognised and who were forced into

3 that house.

4 A. I've stated -- no, these were mostly people from Gostilja. I

5 have stated the names of the Murtic's family. These people lived in the

6 surrounding villages and I couldn't remember their names. I didn't know

7 their names, but I did know the Turjacanin family very well (redacted)

8 (redacted) So of the Turjacanins there

9 were four female members of that family and a child, Dzehva Turjacanin's

10 child.

11 Q. Thank you. So all these people were forced to enter into Meho's

12 house by the Lukic's group, and then what happened after that?

13 A. After that while they were pulling this garage door, I suppose

14 that they would be setting the house on fire and that indeed happened.

15 So I took this cross path via this plum orchard to come to the main road.

16 I was descending down towards the town. I had no more time to drop in on

17 the two elderly people, the elderly couple with the little bag that I was

18 carrying. The protected witness and these other Turjacanin persons whom

19 I mentioned they all saw me personally as I was entering the orchard

20 which belonged -- the land belonged to Medo Mulahasic.

21 Q. Do you know Mr. Mulahasic or members of his family?

22 A. Yes, I knew him very well.

23 Q. Around this house or next to his house were there other relatives

24 of his that were living there, could you tell us?

25 A. Medo lived in Medo Mulahasic's house, as well as his wife Sevala,

Page 706

1 as well as their two daughters, the name of one was Hanka and I forgot

2 the name of the other daughter. These girls were married and he also had

3 two sons who lived in Serbia. So Medo and Sevala Mulahasic lived alone

4 because their children had scattered every which way and the elderly

5 married couple lived alone. But on that day I did not see Sevala or

6 Medo Mulahasic. Later, I saw an incident in town involving

7 Medo Mulahasic.

8 Q. VG-114 [as interpreted], among the people who were forced to

9 enter Meho Aljic's house was a person that you said that was in that

10 group. So do you know whether he lived close to Meho's house or can you

11 tell us where he lived exactly?

12 A. Very near.

13 Q. I will now give you a map which you asked for, and that way

14 you'll be able to show us on the map where is Meho Aljic's house, where

15 this event occurred, this dramatic event occurred. (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 707

11 Pages 707-711 redacted. Private session.

Page 716

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness VG-115, I have a few questions to ask before we are done

5 with this Bikavac incident. Earlier you said that Milan Lukic was

6 yelling, yelling at these people that he had forced into Meho Aljic's

7 house. He was yelling, but were you able to make anything of what he was

8 saying?

9 A. He was shouting at them to make them enter the house faster

10 because people resisted, especially the Turjacanin family.

11 Q. You're saying that he was shouting, was he just screaming or was

12 he uttering words; and if he was uttering any words, do you remember what

13 these words were?

14 A. No, Milan Lukic never said anything to me. He was shouting at

15 the people who he wanted to make enter Meho Aljic's house.

16 Q. Thank you. Then you say that he threw flammable products into

17 the house as well as hand-grenades. What were these flammable products,

18 please?

19 A. Well, to the extent that I could see, they had something like

20 bottles filled with gasoline or some flammable material; and the

21 hand-grenades were like, you know, those small hand-grenades that made a

22 lot of noise.

23 Q. But were you able to identify who was doing this amongst that

24 group?

25 A. Well, the members of his group, although Milan was most

Page 717

1 prominent. I had very little time. I didn't dare stay on longer.

2 Q. I understand you well, but you are saying that Milan was leading

3 the group. I'm sorry that I ask. Could you tell us exactly what he did.

4 You said that he was -- he opened the garage, he was yelling at these

5 people who were forced into that house and who lost their lives in the

6 house later on, but were you able to see anything else that he did?

7 A. Milan was dragging the metal garage door which was put against

8 the main door of the house. The garage was actually part of the house.

9 They leaned that garage door against the door of the house to prevent the

10 people from coming out. I could see all that from my vantage point.

11 Q. Thank you. So he did this to prevent the people from getting out

12 of the house, and it was after that that the hand-grenades were thrown.

13 Was he one of the people throwing the hand-grenades?

14 A. There was several of them, but Milan was in charge. He stood out

15 and it was his voice that could be heard most, and I wasn't glad -- it

16 wasn't at all pleasant for me to stand there and witness all that. I

17 knew what was happening and I couldn't help anyone, it wasn't in my

18 power.

19 Q. Regarding Sredoje Lukic, could you give us some details as to

20 what he did exactly during this incident. What exactly did he do? You

21 told us what Milan Lukic was doing, but could you tell us what Sredoje

22 was doing?

23 A. Sredoje Lukic also shouted at the people, pushed them around, and

24 helped Milan to drag the metal garage door to the entrance door. And he

25 was also intimidating the people, so he was -- he wore a Balaclava not to

Page 718

1 be recognised, because he was a police officer in the town of Visegrad so

2 everybody knew him.

3 Q. You already said that you knew him personally?

4 A. I knew Sredoje Lukic personally. He in time of -- in times of

5 peace he was a very kind person.

6 Q. Then when the war started he changed; is that what you're trying

7 to say?

8 A. When the war began, Sredoje changed a lot. He was a married man,

9 a family man, with three children, his wife was Vicenka [phoen]. As far

10 as I know, no family member of his was killed. He had no reason to

11 behave that way.

12 Q. Thank you. All these people you mentioned who were locked up in

13 Meho Aljic's house, were they all civilians? You said that you knew

14 them. Were they locals from the village?

15 A. The people were all civilians. Nobody was armed or wore any kind

16 of uniform. They were all regular citizens, civilians.

17 Q. I would now like to talk about an incident, another incident, the

18 one that has to do with Mr. Gojko Lukic. You said that it is Lukic's

19 brother, you identify him as such and you identify him as being -- as

20 living with Lukic in the Pionirska house also with his parents. Was this

21 person married?

22 A. Well, according to the words of Gojko Lukic himself, he was

23 married, his wife lived in Belgrade, and they had two sons. I don't know

24 whether that is true and I don't feel like probing into that. He was

25 Milan Lukic's elder brother.

Page 719

1 Q. Was his wife killed?

2 A. Gojko Lukic met a young girl during the war, he met her at

3 Visegrad; during the first months she was not his wife.

4 Q. And what happened to this woman?

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted) He needed fuel, and he said to me, Turn around and

8 look out the window, that's my girlfriend Amela Gacka from Dobrun, the

9 village of Dobrun.

10 Q. Did you ever see this woman sitting in a car driven by

11 Milan Lukic?

12 A. I noticed that woman in the Passat vehicle, but that was in late

13 autumn, not on that day but in late autumn, a couple of months

14 thereafter.

15 Q. After you met her, did you learn what happened to her?

16 A. I also had occasion to see her walking with Milan Lukic's mother.

17 They would be carrying some groceries that they had bought at the green

18 market, and I could notice that Amela Gacka was pregnant.

19 Q. Is she alive today?

20 A. Amela Gacka is no longer alive.

21 Q. Could you tell us in which conditions she died, if you know?

22 A. I was returning from the centre of town, from the public

23 accountancy service (redacted) Amela Gacka was

24 sitting by Milan in a car. He took her out and to the bridge, to the

25 bridge over the Drina River. I remember, it had to be sometime around or

Page 720

1 before, rather, 1.00 p.m., during the day that is. She was the last

2 victim that I know of in the city of Visegrad and this happened in

3 autumn, in late autumn, it was cold. Actually, from what I learned Milan

4 had her returned, had her specifically returned from Belgrade in order to

5 cut short her young life. Amela Gacka had a father and a brother,

6 Meho Gacka was the father and I forgot the name of the brother (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 Q. You say that he made her come back so that he would end her life.

9 What do you mean by that?

10 A. What I mean is that Gojko Lukic, his older brother, actually gave

11 all that up and he was no longer noticed -- his presence was no longer

12 noticed in these last months in Visegrad. He left the town together with

13 Amela Gacka to build a future somewhere else with her and live with her

14 somewhere else and she was also pregnant. Before giving birth and

15 giving -- bringing a new life into this world, he brought her back to the

16 Bosnian city of Visegrad and took her life. Otherwise Amela Gacka would

17 also be a witness here today and she would have many a thing to tell

18 about what Milan Lukic did. I'm very sorry for her and for her

19 parents -- parent and her brother, whom I knew well, although I do not

20 know where they are today nor whether they are still alive. I have no

21 information whatsoever about them.

22 Q. When you say he cut short her life, who are you speaking about,

23 Gojko or Milan Lukic?

24 A. I'm talking about Milan Lukic. In the last two months, Gojko was

25 not anywhere to be seen in the city of Visegrad. He himself was saying

Page 721

1 that he would give it up, the city, go away, that he would go away to

2 live with Amela Gacka. And he told me, I'm afraid that he might kill

3 her, Amela, that is, one day because he also had killed her mother. I'm

4 relating to you all these things which were told me by Gojko Lukic. I

5 gave some thought to this man. He did so many things wrong, committed so

6 many wrongdoings, but I do give -- I do have an inkling of hope for him

7 because I'm very sorry about all the injustice that he has suffered. I

8 am sorry that he has lost his wife and his unborn baby.

9 Q. Thank you very much, Witness VG-115.

10 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have finished with

11 my examination of this witness.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ossogo.

13 Mr. Alarid -- no, Mr. Alarid, you have of course every right to

14 put your case vigorously, that's the tradition from which you come, but I

15 ask you to bear in mind that this is a witness who has obviously been

16 through quite a lot and is distraught. Take that into consideration and

17 I know you'll be able to find a way to put your case as vigorously as

18 possible, but nonetheless respecting her condition. Thank you.

19 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour. I will try to do that.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

21 Q. Ms. 115, good morning.

22 A. Good morning.

23 Q. I'd kind of like to address the last things you just testified

24 to, but I would like to get some background information as to how your

25 involvement in the prosecution of Mitar Vasiljevic, Milan Lukic, and

Page 722

1 Sredoje Lukic occurred. Can we do that?

2 A. To tell you frankly, I decided to do that myself, to testify,

3 that is, and I did testify in order to prove in the minutest details that

4 I know what the truth was as to what the Lukics did and what

5 Mitar Vasiljevic did. Nobody compelled me to do this. I'm doing this on

6 a voluntary basis.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Witness.

8 MR. ALARID:

9 Q. Yes, ma'am, but that's actually exactly what I'd like to talk

10 about. When did you make this decision to participate as a witness

11 against Mitar Vasiljevic, Milan Lukic, and Sredoje Lukic?

12 A. I always had this decision in my subconscious. I couldn't have

13 done it in the city of Visegrad because there I wasn't a free person. (redacted)

14 (redacted) I knew

15 that one day I would either be taking the witness-stand or writing a book

16 about these things.

17 Q. Why would you want to write a book?

18 A. I would want to do that because the most beautiful of cities,

19 Visegrad, which I love the most in the entire Republic of Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina in the currently Republika Srpska (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 Q. And --

25 A. -- and now -- yes, please go ahead, ask your question. Can I

Page 723

1 continue?

2 Q. Ma'am, isn't it true that you place personal responsibility for

3 the destruction of Visegrad on my client, Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and

4 Mitar Vasiljevic?

5 A. Sir, I have to tell you this, Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic,

6 Mitar Vasiljevic, and all the other members of Milan's group always

7 hoisted their huge black flag with a skull and bones on it on which was

8 written "The Avenger." (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 Q. I haven't said you were lying yet.

11 A. I have not come here to lie. I have come here to prove the truth

12 and that truth is a small thing, namely, what was it that those people

13 did in the city of Visegrad. I'm not actually defending the Muslim

14 people or the Serbian people for that matter; I'm just here to tell what

15 I've seen and what I've experienced in order for all people to be done

16 justice.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 724

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 A. I say to you even today, I do not feel the need to hate anyone, I

13 cannot hate anyone, I was just ashamed and I'm still ashamed today. I

14 never hated the Lukic family, not before the war, not during the war, nor

15 do I hate them now. (redacted)

16 (redacted) I fear them then, it was not that they

17 feared me. Let me reiterate, I do not personally hate them, I do not

18 hate any Serbs. I'm not protecting Muslims. I'm just telling the truth.

19 Q. Isn't it true, ma'am, that despite the fact that you're

20 supposedly in close proximity to several crimes, no one that participated

21 in these crimes harmed you?

22 A. Evil was inflicted on me in other situations which are not of

23 relevance in this particular case. Evil was inflicted on me for two and

24 a half years in terms of the fact that I could not leave that city. Had

25 I left it, it would have better for Lukic, (redacted)

Page 725

1 (redacted) Visegrad is a

2 small town, everything is known, everything is heard as to what other

3 people are doing. To their misfortune, I was there to see what they were

4 doing and I should like to emphasize once again, I personally do not hate

5 them.

6 Q. Ma'am, ma'am, that's not the question I asked you. The question

7 I asked you is: Supposedly you're in close proximity to the perpetrators

8 of very serious crimes, they see you, they know you see them, they do not

9 harm you; isn't that true?

10 A. That is true. At that moment they inflicted no harm on me.

11 Q. Don't you feel that that is illogical that you would not be

12 harmed, especially since they supposedly hate you (redacted)

13 (redacted) that you wouldn't be made a victim with the rest of them?

14 A. What are you specifically driving at? What was your specific

15 question? Should Milan Lukic have killed me in Pionirska Street or the

16 Bikavac settlement and then you would be happy with that?

17 Q. No, ma'am, I would not be happy with that. What I would happy

18 with is if you would explain why a material witness to such horrible

19 crimes, (redacted) is not

20 included as a victim to -- in hindsight -- sure, so you wouldn't be here

21 today but simply because you just said that you were hated as well?

22 A. They did hate me. They're actually sorry today that I survived.

23 The Lukics did have the time to kill me. They knew that I could not

24 leave town, (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 726

1 Q. Ma'am, let's -- you gave a statement and you said that you went

2 on your own accord to give a statement against the Lukics and Vasiljevic;

3 correct?

4 A. [No interpretation]

5 Q. Before you made the decision to give your testimony in either

6 statement or trial, had you read news accounts or the indictment against

7 Mr. Lukic?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So you had not read any accounts as to the facts and

10 circumstances of the fire before you gave your statements over three days

11 in the year 2000?

12 A. I gave statements, my statements, when Mitar Vasiljevic was

13 deprived of liberty, that is when I made my statements.

14 Q. So when you saw the fact -- and I'm assuming you saw or got that

15 information from news reports and the community?

16 A. You can assume that. I do not oppose that. I'm here to tell the

17 truth.

18 Q. On direct exam by the state you testified that when you saw that

19 Mitar Vasiljevic had been arrested he was fatter than you had known him

20 before when he was -- when you were a witness to his atrocities; is that

21 true?

22 A. Mitar Vasiljevic had put on some weight by the time I saw him in

23 the court, I mean he had gained some weight in relation to the last time

24 I saw him in Visegrad.

25 Q. Isn't it true you said, though, that you had seen photographs of

Page 727

1 him following his arrest?

2 A. I can't remember that. I saw Mitar in the flesh in the city of

3 Visegrad and after so many years had elapsed I saw Mitar as an arrested

4 person. A couple of years had passed, so I couldn't help noticing, and I

5 did say so, that Mitar had put on some weight.

6 Q. A couple of years had passed. You're giving your statement today

7 in 2008 for instances that happened in 1992. Before 2001 when you gave

8 your testimony, when was the last time you had seen Mitar Vasiljevic?

9 A. I was able to see Mitar Vasiljevic as long as I myself was in

10 Visegrad. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Q. Now, would the court usher please put on the screen what has been

15 uploaded as 1D00-0596 which is the English version of Ms. 115's 2000

16 statement and 1D00-0616 is the B/C/S version.

17 Now, ma'am, while they're uploading those documents, isn't it

18 true that you've read them before your testimony today?

19 A. Excuse me, I did not understand your question. What is it that

20 you're asking me?

21 Q. Did you read your statement you gave to the Tribunal in 2000

22 prior to your testimony today to refresh your recollection?

23 A. Yes, I skimmed through it. I didn't read it in total.

24 MR. ALARID: I would ask the court usher to direct the -- to page

25 14 of both respective statements.

Page 728

1 Q. Can you see that, ma'am? I'd like you to read the paragraph

2 discussing Gojko Lukic, third paragraph from the top.

3 A. About Gojko Lukic.

4 Q. Now, you testified today under oath on direct examination that

5 you actually witnessed the death at the Drina River of his brother's

6 wife; isn't that true?

7 A. Just a -- wait a minute. Yes, I've read it.

8 Q. Okay. Isn't it true you never mentioned in your statement that

9 you actually witnessed the murder?

10 A. Yes, but this is a -- my condensed statement, a condensation of

11 my statement.

12 Q. Ma'am, don't you think it's an important thing to get out in a

13 statement that you're an actual eye-witness to a crime?

14 A. I passed by in a car that day. I was returning (redacted) and

15 Milan took out this pregnant girl from his car. I was alone and they

16 were alone.

17 Q. The Drina bridge is in the centre of town, is it not?

18 A. There are two bridges, in fact.

19 Q. And things had returned to normal by this point supposedly that

20 you had seen Gojko's wife in the market with his mother? Isn't that

21 true?

22 A. Yes, that's true. That happened two or three days before the

23 murder.

24 Q. And at this particular time you're saying today that at 1.00 p.m.

25 you were actually right there, conveniently, at the time that Gojko's

Page 729

1 wife was taken by Milan Lukic to the bridge to be killed?

2 A. I was returning (redacted)

3 (redacted) via the Novi Most.

4 Q. And you're saying today that you actually witnessed that killing;

5 true?

6 A. Yes, that is true.

7 Q. Did he do it with a gun or a knife?

8 A. Shots could be heard. He did it with fire-arms, not a knife.

9 Q. How come you didn't say that in 2000?

10 A. I cannot remember word for word what it was that I said in 2000.

11 I tried to provide as many details as possible, and now when you're

12 asking me these things I'm giving you answers to them.

13 Q. You reviewed the statement before signing them; correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And you reviewed them and actually issued a proofing statement or

16 proofing notes that you also agreed to; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And in the proofing statement you never mentioned the fact that

19 you were actually an eye-witness to the death of Milan's sister-in-law;

20 isn't that true?

21 A. Here in this statement you can see that I was in a vehicle, and I

22 also indicated here that Milan and Amela were also in a vehicle. And I

23 stated that that was on the bridge.

24 Q. And nowhere did you say in that statement that you actually

25 witnessed the killing of his pregnant wife until today, here in court?

Page 730

1 A. Nobody asked me specifically about this murder at that time there

2 was -- Mitar Vasiljevic was on trial. So I say now, if I was alone in

3 the vehicle on the bridge and Milan was in a vehicle on the bridge, I was

4 not armed, Milan was armed, and Milan took the lady out on the bridge and

5 it was common knowledge what happened to men and women when they were

6 taken to that bridge. Nobody else was shot at. Milan did not shoot at

7 me. Amela Gacka was killed then, and when I got back (redacted) and

8 on the morrow and for some time after that this story was told and

9 repeatedly told that Amela Gacka had been killed on the bridge.

10 Q. So are you saying now that really you just heard that she had

11 been killed?

12 A. No. Milan was shooting while we were passing by, he was shooting

13 at Amela. It was the talk of the town. It was a new story. It happened

14 in late autumn. At the moment I happened to be there. We had to cross

15 the bridge. The bridge is long, so we couldn't turn back in our vehicle.

16 Q. Don't you find that's an amazing coincidence that you had -- and

17 by the way, this is November, right?

18 A. It was in November.

19 Q. And don't you find it's an amazing coincidence that you in a

20 wrong-place/wrong-time situation just happened to witness so many

21 atrocities personally by Milan Lukic, Mitar Vasiljevic, and

22 Sredoje Lukic?

23 A. It all happened by chance. It's -- it is incredible but it

24 happened by chance -- but they did that on a daily basis so that

25 everybody could have been in the position to witness something of that.

Page 731

1 To my misfortune, I had to go, or rather, take a ride from the town

2 centre (redacted) so I

3 happened to see the events on the bridge and the things that happened to

4 people. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted) Don't take me wrong. I

8 wouldn't have had the courage to follow the Lukics around or members of

9 their group to learn what they were doing. Nobody was opposing them nor

10 did they care. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 And the Lukics and the members of the group were committing massacres and

21 I knew what they were doing. They were doing what -- they were going

22 about their job (redacted) I couldn't oppose them,

23 nobody could.

24 MR. ALARID: Could the court usher please turn the statements to

25 page 12, please, on both B/C/S and English.

Page 732

1 Q. Ma'am, I'd like to put to your attention and ask you review the

2 second paragraph and third and fourth paragraphs of your statement in

3 B/C/S.

4 A. On page 1 --

5 Q. On page 12, please.

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

9 MR. ALARID:

10 Q. Please indicate when you've finished reading.

11 A. Yes, I have read it.

12 Q. Do you realize, ma'am, in your statement of 2000 before the trial

13 of Mitar Vasiljevic, you were given every opportunity to describe the

14 Bikavac fire; isn't that true?

15 A. That is true, but here --

16 Q. And isn't it true that you mentioned Mitar Vasiljevic, as in the

17 one that was on trial, as being present at the Bikavac fire?

18 A. I mentioned Mitar Vasiljevic because there were two persons by

19 that name. The one I know is the younger Mitar Vasiljevic who worked as

20 a waiter in Panos and the older Mitar Vasiljevic, that was my mistake,

21 is, in fact, Mitar Knezevic, an older man who only had one eye.

22 Q. So, in fact, you do claim that Mitar Vasiljevic, the younger one

23 that worked as a waiter, was at the Bikavac fire and you maintain that

24 today; correct?

25 A. I am saying that this is about Mitar Knezevic, who died a natural

Page 733

1 death.

2 Q. So you're saying that this is a mistake now?

3 A. But I always designated them as Mitar Vasiljevic senior and Mitar

4 Vasiljevic junior, and this one is Mitar Knezevic who was older than

5 Mitar Vasiljevic, the waiter.

6 Q. So Mitar Vasiljevic now wasn't at the fire, as you testified

7 earlier?

8 A. When did I testify earlier? The first time I've given testimony

9 about the Bikavac fire is today.

10 Q. But I'm talking about in your statement, ma'am.

11 A. I am now telling you what this statement means. I cannot

12 remember the exact names of every person.

13 Q. Well -- but you'd indicated that you'd known Mitar Vasiljevic for

14 20 years, that he'd been a local (redacted) and he was a

15 waiter, a well-known person.

16 A. Yes, he was a well-known person.

17 Q. And in your statement you indicate with such certainty that you

18 saw him at Pionirska Street fire, the Bikavac fire, and several incidents

19 of atrocities in late June and July of 1992; isn't that true?

20 A. It is true that I saw him --

21 Q. And so do you --

22 A. -- at the fire. Please go ahead.

23 Q. At Pionirska Street fire and Bikavac?

24 A. I saw Mitar Vasiljevic in Pionirska Street and I pointed him out.

25 He was on a -- he was on horseback, on a white horse, but it was

Page 734

1 Mitar Knezevic. I cannot remember well about Mitar Vasiljevic, the

2 younger man. And I remember well all I said about those -- these other

3 people. It was always confusing to me because there were two persons by

4 the same name Mitar.

5 Q. But nothing that make them look alike, correct, or how you knew

6 them?

7 A. No, they don't look alike at all. Mitar Knezevic in my mind

8 always was Mitar Vasiljevic, but he was older than the real

9 Mitar Vasiljevic. And I repeat, he only had one eye, I don't remember

10 which eye, but they were together often.

11 Q. And isn't it true that you state in your statement with such

12 certainty that Mitar Vasiljevic was committing atrocities with --

13 supposedly with Milan in late July of 1992?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't answer.

16 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] President, I wonder whether one

17 could continue, with all respect due to my colleague who may certainly

18 ask these questions, I wonder whether one should continue this way.

19 We've already had a decision in the Mitar Vasiljevic trial, and as for

20 the framework of the indictment for which this lady is now giving

21 testimony, I wonder whether these questions about Mitar Vasiljevic are so

22 important. I know she mentioned him, but I don't know if the Chamber can

23 be helped with this. We have now to deal with Milan Lukic, with the two

24 Lukics. There already has been a judgement for Vasiljevic, so is this

25 helpful? Should one pursue along this line?

Page 735

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ossogo, it goes to credibility, that's what

3 he's -- that's why he's cross-examining.

4 But I do believe you have spent enough time on that and should

5 move on.

6 He's testing her credibility; that's why he's referring to the

7 Vasiljevic case, and he's entitled to do that but not ad nauseam.

8 MR. ALARID: Tell me when I'm beating the dead horse too much,

9 Judge.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe you have done enough on that

11 particular topic and should move on.

12 MR. ALARID:

13 Q. Now today, Ms. 115, you indicate that you hid in an orchard --

14 MR. CEPIC: Sometimes it's a problem to have translation, full

15 translation in B/C/S, so I kindly ask my learned friend to sometimes ask

16 a little bit slowly to have a full translation in B/C/S. Thank you.

17 Because it was overlapping.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated]

19 MR. ALARID: Yes.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated]

21 MR. ALARID:

22 Q. Now, before we move on from the Bikavac fire would it be fair to

23 say that these three paragraphs were all that you had read, reviewed, and

24 otherwise attested to prior to this testimony today regarding the Bikavac

25 fire? Ma'am, isn't that true?

Page 736

1 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is waiting for the interpretation.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I reviewed it.

3 MR. ALARID:

4 Q. And isn't it true that there's no mention of the garage door in

5 your statement?

6 A. Well, the garage door was mentioned in my full-length statement.

7 When I was testifying in the Vasiljevic trial, I didn't have the

8 opportunity to say anything about the Bikavac massacre. Judging by the

9 extent you're asking questions about Mitar Vasiljevic, you are about to

10 convict him yourself because you are insisting that I say that he was

11 present. And I am mentioning the garage door because Milan Lukic and

12 Sredoje Lukic dragged them there and put them against the door, the

13 entrance door, of the house so that people couldn't escape. I could see

14 that clearly. My vision was impaired in no way, and that is the part of

15 my full-length statement as I made it today.

16 Q. And in your prior statement, ma'am, you mentioned no contact with

17 VG-114, do you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And you mention no grenades or gasoline bottles being thrown and

20 seeing that, do you?

21 A. I did mention it today and that's what I said in my full-length

22 statement.

23 Q. In your written statement in anticipation of your earlier

24 testimony, isn't it true you did not mention grenades being used or

25 gasoline bottles being used prior to today?

Page 737

1 A. I'm testifying today. This is the first opportunity I've had to

2 testify about Bikavac.

3 Q. But you had a full opportunity in over three days in the year

4 2000 to give all the details to the investigators that are relevant to

5 this -- every incident that you knew of and you failed to do so; isn't

6 that true?

7 A. I did lots to that effect, I wrote entire novels. All these

8 statements are, in fact, digested and I repeat that I'm saying the truth.

9 I could write volumes and I have already forgotten lots of things.

10 Q. Well, you had an opportunity to refresh your recollection with

11 both the statement and your volumes of information, and you had an

12 opportunity to give that information to the Prosecution in your proofing

13 statement; and yet you only made one change in regards to the Bikavac in

14 anticipation of today's testimony. Isn't that true?

15 A. I made no change. The Trial Chamber allowed me to speak at more

16 length in my statement of today. I only spoke more extensively today and

17 in comparison to my shorter statement, my earlier, shorter statement.

18 I'm only sorry that I forgot many facts because a lot of time has elapsed

19 since.

20 Q. Well, if you read your statement as regards to the Bikavac fire,

21 it appears in writing that you, in fact, saw nothing and left and only

22 heard noises; isn't that true?

23 A. I couldn't leave the place in two minutes; that would have been

24 impossible to do.

25 Q. You made no mention of an orchard; isn't that true?

Page 738

1 A. That was the shortest way. I didn't mention it, but it was a

2 shortcut I took which I marked with a cross and a circle. That's where

3 I -- the way I took to leave. It's a narrow footpath. I couldn't leave

4 passing by the vehicles. It was a very small plum orchard on the plot

5 belonging to Medo Mulahasic.

6 Q. In your statement you indicated that you heard bursts of fire but

7 in today's testimony you indicated you saw the grenades and the fire and

8 the gasoline bottles; isn't that true?

9 A. They were throwing bottles filled with gasoline and hand-grenades

10 and there were bursts of fire, and I was trying to make it to the main

11 road which wasn't far from the orchard. It's all close, some 20 metres

12 or so. I was going for the main road to continue toward the town centre.

13 Q. And isn't it true in your statement you did not indicate in any

14 way that you saw this grenade throwing or gasoline throwing?

15 A. I reiterate that my statement was digested. Do I not have the

16 right to say the truth today? Because I have been asked to give as much

17 detail about the events at Bikavac. Why are you now questioning me thus

18 and preventing me from saying the truth? I didn't do it, you didn't do

19 it; we all know who did it, the two Lukics and the members of their

20 group.

21 Q. You named several participants of or alleged participants of the

22 Bikavac fire, including a Zoran Vasiljevic. Why did you hate

23 Mr. Zoran Vasiljevic so much as you indicated in your prior direct

24 testimony?

25 A. Thank you for this question. Now I can say. To me that man is

Page 739

1 Zoran Vasiljevic. His name is Zoran, but I'm still not sure whether his

2 last name is Simsic or Vasiljevic but I know what he looks like and I

3 have a reason to hate that man (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted) Similarly, as in the case of Mitar Vasiljevic or Knezevic. And

7 please don't insult me because of these lowly people, not to call them

8 animals. That is why I hate Zoran Vasiljevic or Knezevic. He is -- he

9 lives somewhere around Belgrade. He is also a native of Visegrad who

10 worked in Serbia and --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, thank you. I believe you have given a

12 full explanation to the question asked.

13 Let's move on.

14 MR. ALARID:

15 Q. Well, ma'am, in your statement on page 17, you do indicate a

16 synopsis about Mr. Vasiljevic, but you indicate that Mitar Vasiljevic was

17 with him so it should be very easy for you to be able to tell them apart;

18 wouldn't that be fair?

19 MR. ALARID: And if the court usher would change to page 17 if

20 the witness needs to refresh her recollection.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have read it.

22 MR. ALARID:

23 Q. And so you seem pretty certain as to the identities of both

24 people (redacted)

25 A. Yes, they were Mitar Knezevic, the older one, and

Page 740

1 Zoran Vasiljevic or Simsic. I'm sorry for not knowing his precise last

2 name. It was Mitar Knezevic, the older man.

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 741

11 Pages 741-743 redacted. Private session.

Page 747

1 MR. ALARID:

2 Q. Ms. 115, I had asked you before about your knowledge of the

3 Crisis Staff in Visegrad, the political hierarchy, if you will. Can you

4 describe that at the time, in the summer of 1992?

5 A. You must ask me specifically what it is that you're interested in

6 in order for me to describe it. Is it the police, the staff, what

7 specifically?

8 Q. What was the police -- what were Perisic's and Tomic's

9 responsibility with regards to the police force?

10 A. Risto Perisic and Tomic, yes. Mr. Risto Perisic was the chief of

11 the police of the so-called MUP, M-U-P, in Visegrad, a very positive

12 person in my opinion. He discharged his duties, he did so in the very

13 building of the police, he was responsible for his police force members

14 in terms that they were to provide assistance and actually prove

15 themselves as police officers in their activities.

16 As for Dragan Tomic, I didn't know him well. In my view, he too

17 was a very good person, a positive person, and I know that his brother

18 was killed, I'm not sure and I apologise, whether it was his younger or

19 older brother, he was killed in the war.

20 Q. And what about the Crisis Staff, Savovic?

21 A. I had occasion to see Savovic frequently. He worked at the

22 municipality and he also discharged his office well, unassociated with

23 the paramilitary forces, which is to say I cannot venture an opinion as

24 to what actually Savovic did but he was a very positive person and figure

25 in the city of Visegrad. At that time and during his time and after his

Page 748

1 time I can say that he was a very conscientious and clean person, a very

2 positive character in my mind. According to what I heard and as far as I

3 can remember and as far as I could see, in the electric power authority

4 building radio waves could be used. There I often saw Savovic --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Witness.

6 Next question.

7 MR. ALARID:

8 Q. And, ma'am, would it be fair to say that the Crisis Staff and --

9 placed into power Perisic and Tomic following the SDS taking power?

10 A. No. Perisic and Tomic were employed with the police prior to the

11 breakout of the war, prior to the war situation. They did have power

12 also before that --

13 Q. But after --

14 A. -- Crisis Staff did not actually confer any particular function

15 on them.

16 Q. Isn't it true that the Crisis Staff had the ability through the

17 SDS to appoint members throughout the community, this included the police

18 force?

19 A. No.

20 Q. How do you know this?

21 A. The SDS was a distinct party, a separate party.

22 Q. Separate party from who?

23 A. I'm unable to tell you anything about the SDS. That is something

24 new. I was doing my job, Perisic was discharging his task. Now, the SDS

25 was a new creation in town. I cannot tell you anything about it. I

Page 749

1 don't even know who was in charge of the SDS.

2 Q. Isn't it true the SDS took control of Visegrad following the

3 persecutions of Muslims?

4 A. What do you mean by took control --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please, Witness.

6 Yes, Mr. Ossogo.

7 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, my learned friend Mr. Alarid is

8 trying to get the witness to affirm that Muslims were persecuted by the

9 SDS. I don't know whether in the examination-in-chief this was raised.

10 I don't think it was raised at all. It might have to do with the

11 credibility of the witness, but there are Rules of Procedure. You cannot

12 go in any direction when you ask questions. The questions in the

13 cross-examination have to do with the questions that were put in the

14 examination-in-chief. I fully understood what you said earlier, but this

15 is a different kettle of fish, if I could say so. I don't know where in

16 my client's -- in my client's statement or testimony there's anything

17 about the structure of all this. He's talking about persecution but not

18 in such detail, so I believe that my learned friend should remain in the

19 framework of the questions that were put in the examination-in-chief and

20 in the statement. That way I think we could move on; otherwise, at this

21 pace we're going to spend two days on this.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not going to allow -- I will not allow

23 further questioning on that subject matter, Mr. Alarid.

24 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honour, just to make the record and -- but

25 I will move on is simply that in the global sense of a trial oftentimes

Page 750

1 the credibility is tested against other witnesses presented by the state.

2 And when other witnesses have testified to different observations with

3 regards to the make-up, the political structure, and then this witness is

4 then somehow contradictory, then it would be up to the Chamber to weigh

5 the credibility of each witness against the other and disregard one or

6 the other or both, if necessary, if that's where -- if the Court saw fit

7 down the road. That's where I was going with that, Your Honour, but I

8 understand.

9 Q. Now, just in terms of your knowledge of Perisic, ma'am, did you

10 realize he was a professor before the war?

11 A. Yes, I know that he was a teacher, that he worked in a school,

12 but I'm that kind of person and I didn't actually communicate much with

13 Perisic, I didn't have the need to. I know that he was the chief of the

14 police and that he conscientiously discharged his duties during the war,

15 prior to the war, and after the war, according to what I know, because I

16 had much more pressing matters to attend to, building my house, my duties

17 at work. I was not involved in any political party so that I can only

18 tell you what happened in the town of Visegrad when the people were

19 divided. This is what I can tell you about.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. Witness, I'm going to ask

21 you to try your best to give answers that are short and to the point.

22 MR. ALARID:

23 Q. Now, ma'am, do you recall testifying at the earlier trial?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you recall being shown photographs in that trial?

Page 751

1 A. What photographs do you mean? What do you mean?

2 Q. You were asked to look at a photograph and see if you could

3 identify the location of the Pionirska Street fire.

4 A. Oh, I see.

5 Q. And isn't it true that on that date you'd said that you could not

6 identify where the fire had occurred because you had been too full of

7 fear at the time that you witnessed it?

8 A. I was definitely scared, but I do know from which direction the

9 fire came and whose property the house was and that's why I can find my

10 way in that photograph.

11 Q. The question was, ma'am, is: Isn't it true in the earlier trial

12 you were not able to find that house in a photograph, and yet today

13 you're able to point it out? Isn't that true?

14 A. I do not remember that I was unable to point to the house.

15 Perhaps I wasn't, perhaps the photographs were not the same. Were they?

16 Q. I'm simply confirming, ma'am, and it is not for me to say, it's

17 actually for your recollection as a witness to know. And so isn't it

18 true, ma'am, that you were not able to identify the home in the earlier

19 trial?

20 A. I wish to stress again that I do not know. Perhaps I was unable

21 to precisely point to the house. Perhaps the newly built house was

22 pointed out to me, I -- in that photograph. Perhaps it was not this

23 photograph which I just saw. Maybe I was shown one with a newly built

24 house and I was unable to pin-point the two houses. I don't remember it

25 well.

Page 752

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, the matter could be clarified if you

2 were to point us to the evidence in the earlier trial.

3 MR. ALARID: The evidence as it's loaded in my batch from the

4 Prosecution, Your Honour, was -- it's under -- it's been uploaded under

5 1D00-0706, and if that could be brought on the screen by the court

6 officer, please.

7 Q. Do you recall this photograph, ma'am?

8 A. Well, now that I'm looking at this photograph, whether it was the

9 same photograph as on that day I don't remember; but I can recognise the

10 house. The photograph may have been different. Now looking at it I can

11 recognise the house. I don't remember my situation in the previous

12 testimony, whether I was afraid or not, but now I can -- I can find my

13 way in this photograph.

14 Q. What helped you gain this memory between the trial in 2001 and

15 today, in 2008?

16 A. It's because I am focused and I can think back more thoroughly so

17 that -- so as to avoid pointing out the wrong house. Perhaps I meant a

18 newly built house. There may be new houses there now. Looking at the

19 houses as they are now, I cannot remember what the photograph was like

20 that I saw several years ago. I don't remember well what exactly I said.

21 I remember the main facts but not every word and everything that was

22 written down.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ossogo.

24 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] I don't want to disturb the

25 cross-examination of my learned friend, but I didn't think he was going

Page 753

1 to show this document. I thought he was going to show the transcript.

2 But since we have the document here on the screen, you see -- we see that

3 the witness put a sign on the second house. Is this private session,

4 sorry, are we in private session?

5 THE REGISTRAR: The document is not being broadcast.

6 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well.

7 So I want to say that obviously there was a house that was

8 identified during the previous trial because this house that has a

9 balcony, second house on Pionirska, so this house was identified. We see

10 the marking, and the Defence is trying to confuse the witness at the

11 moment because here this person did identify her house and from her house

12 she said where the smoke came from. Now, if we want to have additional

13 information, we should go to the transcript.

14 Let me remind you that this witness, as you notice, suffered

15 great trauma. All this happened almost 20 years ago so -- all this is

16 very human. Obviously she did identify her house which means she did

17 identify Pionirska, and if we can move to the transcript, if Defence

18 wants to, we can do that. But I don't believe that the Defence can say

19 that the witness was not able to identify her house or the house where

20 the fire was, her second house, because she did identify places.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ossogo, you have made your point.

22 Mr. Alarid.

23 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Shall we look at the transcript?

25 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 759

1 Q. And so, tell me where you met with Mitar Vasiljevic on the road.

2 A. No, that is not correct.

3 (redacted)

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11 (redacted)

12 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Yes,

13 Mr. President. I think it would be necessary to go in private session

14 because there's a lot of information that has been given which could

15 identify the witness.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid, if we're going to be proceeding

17 along those lines, we have to go into private session.

18 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

19 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 760

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23 Q. Where did you speak with Mitar Vasiljevic?

24 A. Why should I speak with Mitar Vasiljevic?

25 Q. Isn't it true you spoke with a woman right before the fire,

Page 761

1 according to your prior testimony?

2 A. I saw the woman on the street. She broke free from that convoy

3 and she saw me, but I had no contact with Mitar Vasiljevic and it's right

4 that I didn't.

5 Q. Where did you see Mitar Vasiljevic?

6 A. I saw Mitar Vasiljevic at the same place where I saw all these

7 other people I mentioned and as I said in my first testimony, and I would

8 like to ask the Trial Chamber why the gentleman keeps referring me to the

9 first testimony if the accused was -- has been convicted. I'm now at

10 this trial where Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic are the defendants. I

11 shouldn't have to mention Mitar Vasiljevic. I thought this was done and

12 over with. Why are you asking me about Mitar Vasiljevic all the time?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: He's entitled to do so. He's trying to show

14 that you're not a reliable witness. He's testing what we call your

15 credibility by suggesting that in that trial you said one thing and in

16 your testimony here you are saying something else. So that's the reason.

17 Don't get upset about it. It's a legal strategy. It may or may not

18 succeed.

19 Yes, Mr. Cepic.

20 MR. CEPIC: I apologise for interrupting. Just one correction in

21 transcript, this is page -- witness said, I will say in B/C/S

22 [Interpretation] I was told that at this trial I'm not supposed to

23 mention Mitar Vasiljevic. Or, more precisely, I was instructed that at

24 this trial I would not be asked about Mitar Vasiljevic. We can listen to

25 the tape also.

Page 762

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Cepic.

2 MR. ALARID:

3 Q. Is it true, ma'am, that you were instructed not to speak about

4 Mitar Vasiljevic in this trial?

5 A. That is not correct and don't take that literally. It was me who

6 put -- spoke about Mitar Vasiljevic, but it was said to me that he is not

7 important in this trial. So I didn't go back to the statements I had

8 already given. Mitar Vasiljevic was not interesting to me and I was

9 not -- I wasn't preparing to talk about him, and that's why I'm confused

10 by your question why I was walking up Pionirska Street, why?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, I believe you are now belabouring

12 this point.

13 MR. ALARID:

14 Q. Where were the people moving?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you hear me?

16 MR. ALARID: Actually I was reading.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I said you are belabouring this point.

18 MR. ALARID: Belabouring the point of the Pionirska Street fire?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, Mitar Vasiljevic and what was said before.

20 Are you moving on to a different --

21 MR. ALARID: I was, actually.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 763

11 Pages 763-767 redacted. Private session.