Page 770
1 Friday, 29 August 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.23 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have a decision to give. I'll give it. The
6 Prosecution had asked to use an exhibit which is part of their second
7 motion to amend the 65 ter exhibit list with confidential annex A filed
8 confidentially on 18th August 2008. The Defence of Sredoje Lukic
9 responded to this motion. Milan Lukic's Defence has not yet responded.
10 However, the motion concerns a request for the admission of nine exhibits
11 to the Prosecution's exhibit list. Proposed exhibits 6 to 9 are number
12 6, a map depicting the area between Visegrad and Rogatica; 7, a map book;
13 and 8, a 360-degree photograph presentation; and the ninth is a
14 photograph book.
15 The Trial Chamber will allow the Prosecution to add these four
16 exhibits to their exhibit list and will render a written decision on the
17 remaining five exhibits once the Milan Lukic Defence has responded to the
18 motion. The dead-line for this response is September 1, 2008.
19 The witness may be brought in.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it has been suggested I tell you that the
22 first break would be at 9.50.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, you are to continue with your
25 cross-examination.
Page 771
1 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-115 [Resumed]
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Madam.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. Have you had a bit of a rest?
8 A. Well, a bit. Thank you for asking.
9 Q. May I introduce myself. I am Djuro Cepic, and I am Defence
10 counsel for Sredoje Lukic, I am one of his lawyers and I am going to put
11 a few questions to you.
12 A. Please go ahead.
13 Q. Could you please listen to my questions carefully and give clear
14 answers as briefly as possible so that we would go through my questions
15 as fast as possible.
16 A. Thank you.
17 Q. Madam, you told me that while you were working, that is how I
18 understood your testimony in relation to the period that you were
19 explaining, on workdays you worked at the factory doing a certain job.
20 Could you tell us what you did on non-working days, that is to say,
21 Saturdays and Sundays, when you did not go to work. What were your
22 activities, very briefly, please?
23 A. May I? Has the interpretation finished? May I answer? On
24 Saturday and Sunday I worked at the company quite often.
25 Q. I'm asking you specifically about these activities outside work.
Page 772
1 This is my very precise question.
2 A. I took care of my daughter, and for the most part I was at the
3 apartment and I went to the family house and I went to the --
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
5 sentence.
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear the end of the sentence, please.
9 The interpreter did not hear. You are overlapping, Mr. Cepic, and the
10 witness, so the interpreter is having a problem.
11 You said: "I went to the family house and to the ..." and it was
12 cut off there.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am saying that my work obligation
14 was on Saturday and Sunday, that I had very little free time because
15 there were war operations in the town of Visegrad.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the end of
17 the witness's statement again; Mr. Cepic spoke.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, you are coming in too quickly. You
19 speak the same language so there is a natural tendency to overlap.
20 Let us have the end of your sentence. You said you had very
21 little free time because there were war operations in the town of
22 Visegrad. Did you say anything else?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I repeated that in the town of
24 Visegrad there were war operations so I could not be in these war
25 operations. My work obligation was to do my job at the company,
Page 773
1 sometimes even on Saturdays and Sundays, until 10.00 or 12.00 because the
2 kitchen was a big one at the company and then the military also came for
3 breakfast and lunch there and that's where they slept, and this was on
4 our work premises. So my work obligation was on a daily basis and day
5 and night at that. I did not have too much free time.
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. You're welcome.
9 Q. Madam, I'm going to go back to part of your testimony. On the
10 27th of August on page 78 of the transcript you explained that it was a
11 workday and that you were returning from work when you saw a lot of
12 soldiers forcing people up Pionirska Street. Could you please tell me
13 how long you worked on that day, tentatively, until what time?
14 A. May I read this?
15 Q. No, you may not.
16 A. All right, all right, but I can't remember that it was the 27th
17 of August --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is it that you want to read?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to read what it was that I
20 wrote, what I wanted to make by way of a statement on that day, because
21 as for dates I didn't remember them very well.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, do you attach a lot of importance to
24 this issue?
25 MR. CEPIC: I would like to clarify just some things very
Page 774
1 briefly.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because she wanted to read something.
3 You have a document there? What is the document that you have?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. What I meant was that I
5 read it from the screen. He mentioned the 27th of August, so if I --
6 well, yeah.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, I see, reading it from the screen. Of
8 course you can read it from the screen. Yes, let's proceed.
9 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Now I am going to put to you what it was that
11 you said on the 27th of August, that is to say, the day before yesterday.
12 Two days ago, you said in relation to the incident in Pionirska Street --
13 A. Oh, I see, oh, oh, the 27th of August, I'm so sorry. I thought
14 that this was many years ago. I didn't realize.
15 Q. Now we're going to clarify everything. So the transcript page
16 was 78. In relation to the incident in Pionirska you explained to us
17 that this was in mid-June 1992.
18 A. Roughly, yes.
19 Q. You were going back from work, it was a workday, and you saw many
20 soldiers forcing people ahead in Pionirska Street.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. What I would be interested in is hearing approximately how long
23 you were at work on that day.
24 A. Mr. Cepic, it's been 18 years.
25 Q. I do apologise.
Page 775
1 A. In order for me --
2 Q. I do apologise. Can you just say briefly: I remember, I do not
3 remember, or roughly when it might have happened so that we would go
4 through this quickly?
5 A. Right. It could have been four or five hours in the afternoon.
6 Q. How was it that you got home from work?
7 A. To the centre of town, I don't remember. I assume that someone
8 drove me in a vehicle. Further on to both apartments, I went on foot.
9 Q. Since it was a workday, what did other employees do? How did
10 they go home?
11 A. For the most part we used transportation vehicles, or rather, a
12 small bus that went through the centre of town and that drove further on
13 to the surrounding villages. Even if I would take the bus I would have
14 to get off in the centre of town.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. You're welcome.
17 Q. I may assume, it's the month of June, it must have been sunny,
18 warm, short sleeves. What kind of clothes did people wear?
19 A. If it was a real summer day, then of course it would be short
20 sleeves; but if it would rain, again, short sleeves wouldn't bother you.
21 Q. Do you perhaps remember what the weather was like -- oh, let me
22 wait for them to interpret this. Do you remember perhaps what the
23 weather was like? This was mid-June, as you said.
24 A. I don't remember, but it may have rained in the afternoon.
25 Q. All right. Thank you.
Page 776
1 A. You're welcome.
2 Q. What was it like in the morning?
3 A. I don't remember. It's been a long, long time. It's been a long
4 time. I do not remember. How could I remember exactly now? How can I
5 give you a precise record of what it was like, warm, rainy, whatever? I
6 can't remember, I'm not sure.
7 Q. Mm-hmm.
8 A. You're asking me about the morning, I don't remember.
9 Q. What about the afternoon?
10 A. I think it rained, but even that I do not remember with 100 per
11 cent certainty.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. You're welcome.
14 Q. Now I'd like to go back to the incident in Bikavac. Yesterday
15 you said to us that this happened in the afternoon when you came across
16 Milan Lukic and his group. Would you tell me whether on that day you
17 went directly to Bikavac from work or --
18 A. No, no, no. This was in the early evening, just before the
19 evening, not directly from work. That is to say, first I'd have to stop
20 and carry out my obligations in order to do what I had to do. If
21 somebody would give me a phone call, like those two old people, I could
22 not go straight from work, for instance, because Bikavac is pretty far
23 away from the centre of town too.
24 Q. What time was it roughly, do you remember? It was day-time, I
25 assume, as long as you mentioned the afternoon.
Page 777
1 A. Well, after my working hours, in the afternoon. If I worked
2 until 4.00 or 5.00, it was in the afternoon. But I repeat, you never
3 knew how long I would stay at work.
4 Q. Of course. On the day when the incident occurred, was that a
5 workday as well? How did the other workers go back home, do you remember
6 perhaps?
7 A. I told you a few moments ago, all the workers used a
8 transportation vehicle; I used the company car more.
9 Q. Mm-hmm. What about this particular day, work day or not?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. But you said you spent that day working?
12 A. Well, that really tells you the story, doesn't it. I can't
13 remember whether I was working on that day or not. It was a matter of my
14 work obligation and that included the weekends. Please don't forget
15 that.
16 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
17 You said this was in broad daylight, it wasn't night-time. You
18 said you got off work at about 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon. What time
19 would that be? It gets dark at about 8.00, so what time would this have
20 been that you saw Milan Lukic's group?
21 A. It was sometime close to that evening.
22 Q. Can you be more specific about the time?
23 A. Well, it was just before the curfew, before 8.00 that evening.
24 There was still sufficient daylight outside. It hadn't gotten dark yet.
25 Q. So that would mean, roughly speaking, before 7.00 p.m., wouldn't
Page 778
1 it?
2 A. I can't quite remember. I had a horrendous headache yesterday.
3 It's very difficult for me to focus today. I apologise. I'm certain it
4 was before nightfall because there was plenty of daylight still outside.
5 MR. CEPIC: Could we have in e-court system Exhibit number P32,
6 please. Thank you. That's quite fine. Thank you.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, here's the map that you drew yesterday.
8 A. I apologise, I must have gotten something wrong here.
9 Q. Can you please do this for us, use a different colour now to draw
10 something for us on this map and could we have Ms. Usher's assistance for
11 this. Could you mark the main road, please.
12 A. Yes, but I'd like a thin pen or pencil for that. I was using a
13 felt pen yesterday which was actually quite unwieldy.
14 Q. Is this the road that takes us from that hilltop down towards the
15 centre?
16 A. Go ahead, Mr. Cepic, what is it you wanted me to do?
17 Q. The main route from the centre on to Bikavac and then right
18 around your homes?
19 A. The main road.
20 Q. Yes, the main road.
21 A. Can you see what I'm pointing at?
22 Q. Not quite yet.
23 A. So you can't. All right. Perhaps I should just stand up. This
24 is the main road that takes you from the centre. All of this, the main
25 road as far as -- as far as Banpolje, this is the main road, all of this,
Page 779
1 the whole thing.
2 Q. If you look at the main road can you please do this for us now,
3 Banpolje, near Banpolje --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, I understand this is under seal so we
5 go into private session.
6 MR. CEPIC: Oh, I do apologise.
7 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 780
1 Q. Yes, but just draw an arrow in that general direction.
2 A. Along the main road you mean?
3 Q. Right.
4 A. Okay. Towards the very bottom of the map or the image. This is
5 near Megdan. Can we see that?
6 Q. Thank you. The letter C, please, mark it there.
7 A. Is this good enough?
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D17, page 12,
10 the same page number applies both to the B/C/S and the English.
11 [In English] Before we change exhibit on our screens could we
12 have an exhibit number for this document, please.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit 2D2.
15 MR. CEPIC: Could we have now in e-court system or a little bit
16 later on we will return back on this issue.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, you provided a physical description of my
18 client, Sredoje Lukic. You specified that he was wearing some sort of a
19 sock, a mask, on his head and he did this in order not to be recognised
20 by Visegrad's inhabitants, or at least that's what you said. You said
21 that he had this pulled over his head in both of the incidents involved.
22 You will agree with me that in that case one could not actually see his
23 hair?
24 A. Well, when he wore the sock one could not see his hair.
25 Q. Yes, thank you. Or the eyes for that matter?
Page 781
1 A. Yes, well, the eyes -- one could see his eyes. How else would a
2 man -
3 Q. Well, yes, but underneath that, you couldn't
4 recognise...
5 A. The man had - had his eyes open...
6 Q. Thank you. Thank you. But since he had this mask or sock pulled
7 over his head, then probably there was nothing really to distinguish him
8 in terms of specific features, something that would reveal Sredoje
9 Lukic's identity to anyone else -
10 A. Well, I knew Sredoje -
11 Q. No, no, I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about other people.
12 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.
13 Q. Other people could not possibly have identified him since he had
14 this sock or mask, though he was wearing a uniform too, just like other
15 people, but there were no distinguishing features that would set him
16 apart from anybody else, were there?
17 A. I suppose there were a lot of people who recognised him even with
18 the sock by the sound of his voice because all residents
19 of Visegrad knew Sredoje. The man had his eyes open.
20 At the time -
21 Q. Thank you.
22 Would it be fair to say that at the time during the Bikavac
23 incident and the Pionirska Street incident you were in a state of shock,
24 you were just imagining Sredoje Lukic, you wanted to see him there?
25 A. No, it's not that I was assuming he would be there or that I
Page 782
1 thought I would see him.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. CEPIC: Could we have 1D18, please, page 12.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Before this comes up, that's your 2000 statement
5 to the investigators, Madam, and then we'll be going back to Bikavac
6 briefly. Could you please read paragraph 2 for me, please.
7 A. On the left or on the right?
8 Q. On the left, the B/C/S. Could you read it out loud, please.
9 A. "A week after the Pionirska Street incident --" is this fine?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. "A week after the Pionirska Street incident, a similar incident
12 happened in an area of town called Bikavac. About 70 people, men, women,
13 children, and elderly people, were forced into Meho and Dervisa Aljic's
14 house. (redacted) I was on the
15 main road when this happened. They ordered them to enter the ground
16 floor of that house. When I say 'they,' I mean the members of
17 Milan Lukic's gang. I was scared and I started walking back towards the
18 centre of town ..."
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. CEPIC: Could we have again on our screens 2D2, please.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, this is your statement, your 2000
22 statement, isn't it? We discussed this, haven't we? Yesterday during
23 your evidence you said something that does not tally with what your
24 statement reflects. You said you weren't coming back from the actual
25 town, but rather you were coming from the direction of your home when you
Page 783
1 came across Milan Lukic's group. (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 Q. Unlike your evidence yesterday, in your statement you claim that
8 you were standing on the main road -- Madam, you said yesterday that you
9 were in this orchard and that (redacted)
10 Nonetheless, in your 2000 statement, which was a sworn statement and you
11 took three days to make --
12 A. May I say something?
13 Q. Please just allow me to finish. You said something that seems to
14 be quite the opposite of this.
15 A. May I answer now?
16 Q. You claim in your statement that you were standing on the main
17 road, but then you got scared and you headed back towards the centre of
18 town. My question to you, Madam: Does there not seem to be quite a
19 notable difference between the two, a discrepancy, if you like?
20 A. May I tell you about my reasons?
21 Q. Just say yes or no --
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no, if she has a reason she's entitled to
23 give it and I certainly would like to know.
24 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Please go ahead then.
Page 784
1 A. Mr. Cepic, the genocide at Bikavac, the evidence came for the
2 first time this year. I never testified about this. I'm only talking
3 about it now. Back in 2001 I wasn't talking about Bikavac. That was the
4 short version of my evidence, and Bikavac was never mentioned during the
5 Vasiljevic case. Back at the time, Mr. Cepic, I was quite afraid during
6 my evidence because Mr. Lukic, both of them, in fact, were still at
7 large. So please, try not to cause any serious health problems for me.
8 There you have my answer. I'm not here to be scared or intimidated by
9 you. I'm not here for you to pose a threat to my health. I am here to
10 give evidence to the best of my recollection and ability.
11 Q. Can you see the map?
12 A. Yes, I can.
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 Q. Madam, two days ago you testified about the incident at
22 Pionirska Street. You said that two ladies who witnessed the incident
23 survived. Why did you call them witnesses?
24 A. I believe that two persons survived the massacre. When I said
25 "witnesses" I meant survivors.
Page 785
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 785-789 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 790
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Madam, did you have occasion to see the Mitar Vasiljevic
9 judgement?
10 A. The final judgement? No, no, no, no.
11 Q. Doesn't it sound a bit strange that in your testimony during the
12 direct examination you omitted the parts about which you were discredited
13 in that judgement until my colleague Alarid did not take you back to that
14 story concerning two Mitar Vasiljevics, the older and the younger one,
15 doesn't that sound a bit strange to you?
16 A. We did mention the older and the younger Mitar Vasiljevic at the
17 same trial too, and then I carried out this identification by way of
18 photograph; that is to say, when I was shown a photograph then I made a
19 distinction between the two persons.
20 Q. Why did you refuse to grant an interview to our Defence team in
21 the pre-trial stage?
22 A. I don't understand your question, Mr. Cepic.
23 Q. We informed our colleagues from the OTP that we wished to speak
24 to you.
25 A. Oh, by phone?
Page 791
1 Q. Madam, we filed a request to the effect that we wished to speak
2 to you. Our colleagues from the Office of the Prosecutor said that you
3 refused to talk to us in any way.
4 A. I'm not refusing. Please go ahead. Here I am. I'll give you
5 all the answers I can give. Yesterday, I do apologise, there was a lot
6 of tension involved and I had to concentrate a great deal, if you really
7 want to be fair about this.
8 Q. Madam, I believe my colleagues from the OTP.
9 A. Yes, I believe them and I believe you too.
10 Q. This was two months ago. You refused to talk to our Defence
11 team, and I'm asking you why.
12 A. Well, can I explain it now, how this happened? Now you are
13 saying that I refused. I was at work. I could not talk. You found me
14 when I was at work. A question was put to me, Madam, do you want to talk
15 to the Lukic/Lukic lawyers? Do you want to talk to them? And then after
16 that conversation you can withdraw. And I said, No, no, out of fear, I
17 mean.
18 Q. Why did you refuse to talk?
19 A. I said no.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. Without thinking at all any more about it.
22 MR. CEPIC: Could we have admission of this exhibit on our
23 screens, please.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit Number 2D3
25 under seal.
Page 792
1 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much. I forgot to say that it has to
2 be under seal.
3 Q. [Interpretation] We mentioned VG-114, or rather, you mentioned
4 VG-114?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You believe that she is a credible person and that she could
7 provide the most relevant information about the incident at Bikavac,
8 right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You would believe her, you would believe her words?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Then, Madam, you are not telling the truth. You said that it was
13 daylight and that one could see and VG-114 says in her statement that
14 it's 9.00 in the evening.
15 A. 9.00 in the evening when I could not longer be present because it
16 was curfew time by then --
17 Q. Thank you, thank you. Madam, would you believe me if I were to
18 say to you that you are not telling the truth even about the incident in
19 Pionirska Street?
20 A. I am telling the truth and I am sorry that I could not talk to
21 you on the telephone.
22 Q. Please, may I finish my question?
23 A. Yes, please go ahead.
24 Q. You said that it was a workday. You described to us how it was
25 that you were getting back from work --
Page 793
1 A. But I said roughly, roughly, a workday, every day was a workday.
2 All right. I agree with you that I said that it was a workday. Please
3 go ahead now.
4 Q. You were explicit about this. You described to us how other
5 workers went home on that day and how you came home.
6 A. I did not say that it was 100 per cent.
7 Q. Madam, reference, your transcript, your testimony, page 78, the
8 27th of August, 2008, lines 18 through 23 --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Would you believe me that the Trial Chamber ascertained that this
11 was a holiday, a religious holiday in fact?
12 A. We would sometimes go on working throughout the religious
13 festivities, but I do believe what you're telling me.
14 Q. Thirdly and lastly, are you aware of the fact that in the
15 Vasiljevic case the Trial Chamber found you to be a witness that was not
16 credible or reliable. This is in 89 -- paragraphs 89, 90, and 150 [as
17 interpreted] of the judgement and perhaps other references too.
18 A. No, Mr. Cepic, I was not aware of that.
19 Q. Thank you very much, Madam. I have no further questions for you.
20 MR. CEPIC: Paragraphs 89, 90, and 159 from Vasiljevic judgement.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.
22 Mr. Ossogo, any re-examination?
23 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Just a few questions, Your Honour,
24 on the issue of people whom VG-115 has seen.
25 Re-examination by Mr. Ossogo:
Page 794
1 Q. VG 115, I would like you to look around the courtroom, take you
2 time, and let me know and tell the Bench whom you recognise with the
3 exception of myself, of course --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
5 MR. CEPIC: Objection, Your Honour. I think that is not
6 something which was raised from the cross-examination.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, we are not with you on this one
9 because it seems to us that the whole question of identity has been a
10 principal plank of the cross-examination.
11 Go ahead, Mr. Ossogo.
12 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Witness, please answer the question.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can identify both Milan and
15 Sredoje Lukic in this courtroom, and if I may just apologise to Mr. Cepic
16 for not having been able to talk to him on the phone.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ossogo.
18 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say that some
19 people had put their hands in front of their face. I wanted to make sure
20 that these people could be properly identified.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but let her tell us which Cepic is which
22 Cepic -- sorry, which Lukic is which Lukic. I'm very sorry about that.
23 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, just to add something, there are plenty
24 of Cepic lawyers, so ...
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.
Page 795
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say this now?
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes, go ahead. Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milan Lukic, wearing a black
4 suit; next to him, Mr. Sredoje Lukic, who used to be bald and wear a sock
5 over his head but now he has plenty of hair.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
8 Q. Thank you, Witness VG-115. And those are the two people you saw
9 on Pionirska Street the day the incident took place? When this person's
10 house burnt down, these are the two men you saw; is that right?
11 A. I was much surprised about Milan Lukic because I think he's
12 changed a lot. It's probably his age, must have left a trace. Sredoje
13 hasn't changed that much actually. I used to know Sredoje from before.
14 I only got to know Milan Lukic during the war, but I used to know Sredoje
15 while he still worked as a police officer and as I said yesterday he was
16 a person whom I felt a great deal of affection for. When the war first
17 started, Sredoje would walk around with his head shaved entirely. He
18 didn't have any hair to speak of. Why was he using the sock? I suppose
19 only he could tell us that.
20 Milan Lukic was a man of striking looks, always very neat, very
21 orderly, closely cropped, always clean and neat and he always stood out
22 in that respect.
23 Q. Thank you, Witness VG-115. So you can confirm that these are the
24 two people you saw on Pionirska Street who were monitoring the civilians
25 you mentioned?
Page 796
1 A. I can confirm that I saw them at Pionirska Street and Sredoje was
2 standing in my nearest proximity.
3 Q. Thank you. And these two people you -- whom you have identified,
4 Milan Lukic wearing a dark suit and Sredoje Lukic, are the two men you
5 saw in Bikavac when this incident took place and which you described at
6 length during your testimony --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
8 MR. CEPIC: I apologise, I would like just request opportunity to
9 ask some additional questions of this witness. I think some topics are
10 raised right now.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but are you saying they didn't arise out of
12 cross-examination because you've had your turn. The only way that I
13 would allow --
14 MR. CEPIC: Page --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- the only way I would allow you to ask
16 additional questions is if I have allowed the Prosecutor to re-examine
17 exceptionally on a matter that didn't arise. And sometimes I do do that,
18 but I'm not aware that that has happened here.
19 MR. CEPIC: With your leave, page 26, line 25 and page 27, line
20 1, she confirmed that she was standing in the nearest proximity of my
21 client; I didn't hear that before.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let the Prosecutor finish his
23 re-examination and then we'll consider your submission. And when we come
24 to consider it, I'll ask the Prosecutor to comment on it.
25 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
Page 797
1 Q. I shall continue by asking you this question: VG-115, are these
2 the two people who you saw during that incident in Bikavac when these two
3 men did what you stated in your prior statement, i.e., forcing these
4 civilians to go into Mr. Aljic's house?
5 A. Yes, I saw these two persons.
6 Q. Witness VG-115, you told us that the reason why you testify in
7 this case, it is because you wanted justice to prevail and this is why
8 you have accepted to come and testify here before this Court.
9 A. Definitely. I'm here to testify for the sake of justice and not
10 because the gentleman offended me yesterday with his racist remark,
11 saying that I was emanating hatred for the Serbs. I don't think he
12 should ever have allowed himself to say anything like that. The only
13 reason I'm here is to tell the truth --
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Witness. You're saying that
15 yesterday you were offended by a gentleman with his racist remark.
16 Speaking for myself, I -- I don't know that any racist remarks were
17 uttered in this court. I would not have allowed that.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told me that I was teeming with
19 hatred against the Serbs, and that was a bit rich because I'm a Serb
20 myself. The only reason I'm here is to tell the truth and to say what
21 those who died then and who are still alive went through at the time.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Let us move on.
23 Mr. Ossogo.
24 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Thank you, Witness VG-115.
Page 798
1 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
2 questions.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us now deal with the submission by
4 Mr. Cepic that -- Mr. Ossogo, Mr. Cepic submitted that in your
5 re-examination for the first time there was a mention by this witness
6 that she saw his client, Sredoje, on Pionirska Street. What do you say
7 to that?
8 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has always
9 stated that Milan and Sredoje Lukic were in -- the main perpetrators
10 together with associates and were involved in those facts that occurred
11 in Pionirska. I don't think she made up this new fact. As far as the
12 two incidents are concerned, the burning down of the house on
13 Pionirska Street and the Bikavac incident, well, these are two --
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is a matter, of course, that can be
15 checked, but you would be in the best position to tell us. In your
16 examination-in-chief, did you lead any evidence from her that she saw
17 Sredoje on Pionirska Street?
18 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I don't have the
19 exact line on the transcript that I can say -- if we look at page 701,
20 lines 24 to 25 --
21 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: In today 's transcript or yesterday's
22 transcript?
23 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] The transcript dated the 27th --
24 28th, sorry.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Legal Officer will check this for me.
Page 799
1 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: [Interpretation] What we have here does
2 not mention any page number so I can't check.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you give us the reference again, Mr. Ossogo?
5 MR. OSSOGO: [Microphone not activated]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Page 701, lines 24 to 25.
8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: On the transcript we have of the 28th
9 the page numbering starts with page 1, so if you could indicate the page
10 number on the document that we're all looking at that could help.
11 [Interpretation] But the -- what Mr. Cepic was saying, that the
12 witness was standing close to Sredoje Lukic, I haven't seen that on the
13 transcript --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just add one thing? I would
15 like to say something about this --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no, we'll come to you when we're ready,
17 Witness.
18 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I can read it
19 out. I don't actually have the page on my screen. I shall read it out
20 in English.
21 [In English] "They were standing on this very narrow road in
22 front of me ...
23 "I could recognise the members of their group because I had come
24 to know them very well when they came to my enterprise. Among them there
25 were also citizens of Visegrad."
Page 800
1 [Interpretation] The witness continues.
2 [In English] "I shall do my best to remember them all.
3 Milan Lukic was there, Sredoje Lukic, so Milan Lukic with his father,
4 Mile ..."
5 That's it.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
7 I think that raises the question, Mr. Cepic, it was raised in
8 examination-in-chief and you would have had therefore an opportunity to
9 contest that allegation in your cross-examination, and therefore I would
10 not allow you to do so now, you know.
11 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness -- are you sitting as if you want to
13 rise, Mr. Cepic?
14 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, with your leave, I think that the
15 witness was more specified during the re-direct examination and she
16 said -- specifically for Sredoje Lukic she said something about his hair
17 which is not mentioned in the direct examination, about his description.
18 So for me this is a new topic and she gave more specific information
19 related to incident on 28th page, line -- line 2 and 3, that two of them
20 forcing these civilians into the house of Aljic. So she could see those
21 two persons.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Cepic. I maintain the decision
24 that I made.
25 Witness, that concludes your evidence, we thank you for giving
Page 801
1 it, and you may now leave.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next witness.
5 MS. MARCUS: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution calls
6 VG-104, Mirsada Kahriman.
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 [The witness entered court]
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, and you may sit.
17 You may begin, Ms. Marcus.
18 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Mr. President, and Your Honours.
19 WITNESS: MIRSADA KAHRIMAN
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Examination by Ms. Marcus:
22 Q. Good morning, Ms. Kahriman.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. Can you hear me clearly?
25 A. Yes.
Page 802
1 Q. Could you please kindly state your full name and your date of
2 birth?
3 A. Kahriman Mirsada; the 15th of September, 1962; Visegrad, Dusce.
4 Q. Ms. Kahriman, in the spring of 1992, in what village did you
5 live?
6 A. Dusce.
7 Q. And in what municipality?
8 A. Visegrad.
9 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, for the information of the Court,
10 Ms. Kahriman is a 92 ter witness so I'll be proceeding to have her
11 confirm her prior statements.
12 Q. Ms. Kahriman, did you give a statement to ICTY investigators on
13 the 14th of March, 2001?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review that statement in the
16 Bosnian language before coming to court today?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When we met earlier this week, we discussed several
19 clarifications to that original statement and you provided an additional
20 statement to ICTY investigators and myself this week. Do you recall
21 giving that statement?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was that statement read back to you in the Bosnian language?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you sign that statement?
Page 803
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Before I ask you to confirm both those prior statements, there's
3 one additional clarification. When you were interviewed by ICTY
4 investigators in March of 2001, were you shown any pages containing
5 photographs?
6 A. Yes, there were some photographs.
7 Q. Do you recall how many pages, how many pieces of paper, with
8 photographs, you were shown?
9 A. There was a single page with photographs.
10 Q. If I were to ask you today the same questions you were asked in
11 your two prior statements, would you provide the same answers?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. MARCUS: At this point, Your Honours, pursuant to Rule 92 ter
14 I tender into evidence Ms. Kahriman's two ICTY statements. The first is
15 dated the 14th of March, 2001, which is 65 ter number 172; the second is
16 dated 26th of August, 2008, it does not have a 65 ter number, but the ERN
17 is 0638-2685 to 0638-2689.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 172 will become
20 Exhibit P33 -- 34; and ERN 0638-2685 will become Exhibit P35.
21 MS. MARCUS:
22 Q. Ms. Kahriman, I'm going to ask you just a few additional
23 questions. In your statement you discuss numerous occasions between the
24 18th of May, 1992, and the 14th of June, 1992, when you eye-witnessed
25 Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic committing crimes in Visegrad. I'm going
Page 804
1 to ask you now a few questions about your knowledge of Milan Lukic and
2 Sredoje Lukic.
3 In your 14th of March, 2001, ICTY statement you describe the
4 first time you met Milan Lukic and he introduced himself to you. Can you
5 recall what he said to you?
6 A. He told me at the Drina bridge that his name was Milan Lukic, he
7 was 25, and he was there to cut some Muslim throats.
8 Q. Do you recall when this was that he said this to you?
9 A. I can't quite remember.
10 Q. Did you know Milan Lukic before the war?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Can you describe Milan Lukic as he looked when he introduced
13 himself to you and spoke those words?
14 A. Milan Lukic was wearing a military uniform with insignia showing
15 two white eagles, it was an armband on his sleeve. Hair neither long nor
16 short, sort of medium, and he never wore any caps.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus, we are going to take the break now,
18 20 minutes.
19 --- Recess taken at 9.50 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 10.15 a.m.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Marcus.
22 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
23 Q. Ms. Kahriman, before we took the break we were discussing how you
24 knew Milan Lukic. To your knowledge was there anyone else by the name of
25 Milan Lukic in Visegrad during 1992 other than the man that you have just
Page 805
1 described?
2 A. [No interpretation]
3 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the translation.
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. Now I'm going to ask you a few questions about Sredoje Lukic. In
6 your statement you speak about Sredoje Lukic. Did you know him before
7 the war?
8 A. Yes, I did know him.
9 Q. How did you know him?
10 A. Well, I knew him because I saw him but I didn't have any contact
11 with him.
12 Q. Before the war, how frequently would you say you saw
13 Sredoje Lukic?
14 A. Well, I saw him before the war two or three times a day.
15 Q. In your ICTY statements which are now in evidence you describe
16 events which you eye-witnessed which took place at your next-door
17 neighbour's house on the 18th of May, 1992. These events relate to acts
18 you eye-witnessed in which Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic stole your
19 neighbour Behija Zukic's cherry red Passat and their truck, abducted six
20 men and boys, and killed Behija Zukic. I would like to ask you just a
21 few questions in relation to these events.
22 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I would object to the leading nature of
23 the foundation.
24 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, this is a 92 ter witness. The
25 statements are in evidence. This is merely a summary to put the
Page 806
1 witness's -- put the questions that I'm going to put to the witness in
2 context. These are merely additional questions to add on to her
3 information which is already in evidence through these statements.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.
5 MS. MARCUS:
6 Q. What is the approximate distance between your house and the Zukic
7 house?
8 A. -- metres.
9 Q. I'm sorry, was the interpretation cut off? Could you please
10 kindly repeat the answer.
11 A. 2 metres, there were 2 metres between my house and Behka's house.
12 Q. In your statements you describe three times on the 18th of May,
13 1992, when Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic came to the Zukic home. Can you
14 estimate the distance between where you were standing and the events you
15 describe during the first visit to the Zukic home.
16 A. The first time they came, again it was 2 metres away, when
17 Milan Lukic returned Behka -- and Sredoje Lukic too, when they returned
18 them from town to their house.
19 Q. On the second time Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic came to the
20 Zukic home that day, how close was your observation point to those
21 events?
22 A. Perhaps it was a metre away when Milan Lukic came the other time
23 and took people away on a truck.
24 Q. On the third visit when you say in your statement that Ms. Zukic
25 was shot and killed, how close were you to Milan Lukic when you observed
Page 807
1 Behija Zukic's body?
2 A. I crossed my terrace to Faruk's room and I saw Behka's body lying
3 in the hall, part of it in the hall, part of it in the living-room.
4 Q. You mentioned the name Faruk. Can you tell the Court, please,
5 who Faruk is.
6 A. Faruk is Behka's son.
7 Q. How close were you to Milan Lukic when you observed Behka --
8 Behija Zukic's body?
9 A. Maybe I was a metre away when Milan killed Behka and when he said
10 that I would be the next victim.
11 Q. How close were you to Sredoje Lukic when you observed
12 Behija Zukic's body?
13 A. Sredoje Lukic was a bit further away from Milan Lukic. I cannot
14 tell you now exactly how big the distance was.
15 Q. Did you see Milan Lukic carrying anything or holding anything at
16 that moment?
17 A. He was holding an automatic rifle.
18 Q. Did you see Sredoje Lukic carrying anything or holding anything
19 at that moment?
20 A. He had a rifle on his shoulder.
21 Q. During these events how was Milan Lukic dressed?
22 A. He was wearing military clothing, and he had an emblem of the
23 White Eagles that was sewn on to his sleeve.
24 Q. And how was Sredoje Lukic dressed?
25 A. Just like Milan Lukic, they were dressed the same way, the same
Page 808
1 uniform.
2 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind as to what you say in your
3 statement, that Milan Lukic stole Behija Zukic's cherry red Passat?
4 A. He personally stole Behija's Passat.
5 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind as to what you say in your
6 statement, that Sredoje Lukic drove the truck that carried away the six
7 men and boys from the Zukic home?
8 A. No doubt in my mind.
9 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind as to what you say in your
10 statement, that Milan Lukic shot Behija Zukic?
11 A. Milan Lukic did not shoot Behija Zukic --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus, the Trial Chamber is of the view
15 that the better procedure for you to adopt is to summarize the -- to have
16 the witness herself give a summary of the points which you wish to elicit
17 from her.
18 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honours. Just to clarify, with regard to
19 92 ter witnesses because of the limitation of time it was our
20 understanding that the procedure is that we admit the -- her confirmation
21 of the prior statements and then seek certain clarifications on
22 particular points. In order to focus the witness on those particular
23 points, the questions are put in this very specific way, and that was the
24 purpose especially because in an identification case there are
25 necessarily certain questions which must be asked in court and that
Page 809
1 lengthens the time in chief. So this was the last question which -- with
2 regard to the Zukic incident. After that I was going to discuss some
3 sightings of the accused and then conclude.
4 Are you asking me to put -- to ask the witness in detail about
5 the incident?
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not at all, not at all; it's the exact opposite.
7 The point I'm making is that the evidence should come from the witness.
8 MS. MARCUS: Yes.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: And not from you.
10 MS. MARCUS: Yes. Understood, understood.
11 Q. So before we -- before I ask you one last question about the
12 Zukic incident, I'd like to clarify your last response. I believe there
13 may have been a translation problem. You said earlier in your testimony
14 here, and as well in your statements, that Milan Lukic had killed
15 Behija Zukic. Now I asked you the question of whether there's any doubt
16 in your mind of that fact that you testified to, and I think the
17 translation -- I think you said "nije," which means no, and I'd like to
18 ask you to please repeat that answer, whether no, he didn't shoot her, or
19 no, you don't doubt it.
20 So I ask you one more time to be clear --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
22 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, there are
23 too many leading questions here. That's what we're hearing from the
24 Prosecutor. That is the only thing I wish to point out. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Prosecutor is asking her to clarify her last
Page 810
1 response, so that's already in evidence.
2 Yes, give the answer, please.
3 MS. MARCUS:
4 Q. Ms. Kahriman, did you understand the question or would you like
5 me to repeat that last question?
6 A. I understood the question. Milan Lukic killed Behka Zukic.
7 Q. Ms. Kahriman, between the 10th of June, 1992, when your husband
8 was unfortunately killed, and the 14th of June, 1992, how many times
9 would you estimate you crossed the old Visegrad bridge?
10 A. I'd cross the old Visegrad bridge six times a day.
11 Q. For clarification purposes, when you say "six times a day," is
12 that six times crossing in one direction or six round trips?
13 A. It's six times going there and back, that is to say that I would
14 cross the bridge three times a day going there and back.
15 Q. Why were you crossing the bridge so frequently between the 10th
16 of June and the 14th of June, 1992?
17 A. I went to try to bury my husband.
18 Q. How many times during those four days did you see Milan Lukic?
19 A. Every time I crossed the bridge I saw Milan Lukic and
20 Sredoje Lukic, I saw them at the bridge.
21 Q. How many times during those four days did you see Behija Zukic's
22 red Passat?
23 A. The number of times I saw Milan Lukic, that's the number of times
24 I saw the Passat at the bridge, it was always parked.
25 Q. How was Milan Lukic dressed?
Page 811
1 A. He wore military clothing, and on his sleeve he had the emblem of
2 the White Eagles.
3 Q. How was Sredoje Lukic dressed?
4 A. Just like Milan Lukic.
5 Q. Ms. Kahriman, I'd like to ask you to look around the courtroom
6 and please tell us if you recognise anyone in the courtroom here today
7 apart from myself. Please take your time and be sure that you, in fact,
8 do recognise someone, if you do, before you speak.
9 A. I do not recognise anyone.
10 Q. Ms. Kahriman, can you tell the Court how did the crimes that you
11 witnessed affect you.
12 A. I've already said that Behka Zukic was killed, that people were
13 taken away, I've already said that, all of that is in my statement. They
14 killed my husband and that's in the record, who it was that killed him.
15 Milan and Sredoje Lukic from the 10th of June, 1992, that is when it was
16 the Muslim holiday of Kurban Bajram and that is when they killed the
17 largest number of Muslims.
18 MS. MARCUS: I have no further questions, Your Honours.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 MS. MARCUS: Mr. President, Your Honours, with your indulgence
21 may I ask one last follow-up question.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
23 MS. MARCUS:
24 Q. Ms. Kahriman, can you tell the Court when was the last time you
25 saw Milan or Sredoje Lukic?
Page 812
1 A. The last time I saw Milan was on the 14th of June, 1992, in front
2 of the Visegrad Hotel.
3 Q. And the last time that you saw Sredoje Lukic?
4 A. Well, that's when I saw him, on that same day, but they were
5 apart.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you see any of them in court today, either
8 Milan or Sredoje Lukic?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Today they're both here but I
10 cannot recognise them. It's been 16 years, that's a long time.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
12 Mr. Alarid.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:
14 Q. Good morning, ma'am. My name is Jason Alarid. Just in terms of
15 the statements you've given in these proceedings, I'm looking at the
16 interpreter certificates and I note that the statements were read to you.
17 So is it fair to say that you do not read and write the Serbian language?
18 A. I know how to read and write in the Serbian language.
19 Q. So you read your -- because I was merely referring to what the
20 interpreter certificate said is that the statements were read to you by
21 an interpreter, and so it appeared that you did not read them yourself
22 before you signed them.
23 A. I read them personally and I signed them.
24 Q. Now, ma'am, do you realize -- or rather, did you also read a
25 statement in preparation for this that was given in June -- excuse me,
Page 813
1 July 23rd, 1992, in which your signature appears on the last page?
2 A. I read the statement, there is no need for me to read it when I
3 know it off by heart.
4 Q. And, ma'am, this statement was -- had on the cover sheet the --
5 that it was given to the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
6 Security Services Centre, the 23rd of July, 1992.
7 A. I did make a statement. I made a statement to the journalist
8 about security, no one else but the journalist. It was a handwritten
9 statement. It wasn't written on a computer or on a printing machine. It
10 is my signature and what is written there is even more than that.
11 Q. What is written is more than the statement you wrote in
12 handwriting or more than you told who you call now a journalist back in
13 1992?
14 MS. MARCUS: Objection.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 MS. MARCUS: Sorry, the witness did not say that she wrote the
17 statement; the witness simply said it was a handwritten statement.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.
19 MR. ALARID: And I guess then the question -- I was confused.
20 Q. Did you actually write a handwritten statement of which you
21 turned over to this journalist, as you say; or did the journalist make a
22 handwritten statement of which you saw?
23 A. The journalist wrote it personally in his own hand. I did not
24 write that statement.
25 Q. But regardless, you do identify your signature at the end of the
Page 814
1 Serbian typewritten statement; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, that's my signature.
3 Q. Okay.
4 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, at this time we have and I would tender
5 it as evidence 1D00-3146, which is an English translation of a witness
6 statement of Mirsada Kahriman given 23rd July 1992, with the caveats of
7 the witness, of course; and the signed statement is 1D00-3177.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the statement will become
10 Exhibit number 1D23.
11 MS. MARCUS: Mr. President, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 MS. MARCUS: I submit that before the learned counsel puts
14 questions to the witness on this, that there are apparently some
15 questions about the authenticity of this document and that he should lay
16 a foundation first that it is, in fact, the witness's statement. She's
17 presented some confusion about whether she in fact gave a statement to
18 the police. She said that she signed a handwritten statement, whereas
19 this statement is typewritten and she said she gave a statement to the
20 journalist, whereas this statement appears on police letterhead. So I
21 submit, especially in light of paragraphs 2 and 3 of the witness's
22 statement from the 26th of August, that there are some questions that
23 have to be asked first before detailed questions are put on this
24 statement.
25 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, we just -- as part of the 65 ter
Page 815
1 disclosures we have actually only received an unsigned typewritten
2 statement and we received the signed statement of which this witness
3 refers to as an authentic signature just this week and so that is when we
4 uploaded it into the e-court as our 1D00-31 -- excuse me, 3177.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, ask the questions necessary to clarify the
6 matter.
7 And of course, Ms. Marcus, you will have an opportunity to
8 re-examine.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, second statement 1D00-3177 will
10 become 1D24.
11 MR. ALARID: And could we on side by side have the English
12 version and the Serbian or B/C/S signed version, please, and we can start
13 at page 1 for foundational purposes.
14 Q. Now, ma'am, can you just simply read the first sentence of the
15 first page in Serbian, please.
16 A. "Record.
17 "Citizen Mirsada Kahriman, daughter of Sahin Dragulj and mother
18 Hatema, nee Ramic, born the 15th of September, 1962, in the village of
19 Draguljevici, Rogatica municipality, completed primary school, housewife,
20 married, mother of two ..."
21 Should I go on?
22 Q. Yes, please, just the first paragraph.
23 A. " ... permanently residing at the hamlet of Dusce number 74,
24 Visegrad municipality, husband Ekrem killed by the Chetniks in the
25 village of Osojnica, pursuant to Article 151 of the Law on
Page 816
1 Criminal Procedure made the following ..."
2 Q. Now, ma'am, is that personal information about you true to the --
3 A. Yes, all of this information is true.
4 Q. And would it be fair to say that the person that generated this
5 statement had to have spoken with you to get this personal information
6 with specificity?
7 A. A journalist talked to me, it was no investigator.
8 Q. So he specifically identified him as a journalist? For what news
9 organization?
10 A. Oh, well, there's one thing I can't tell you.
11 MR. ALARID: Would the witness require us to go into private
12 session to reveal what you can't say in open court?
13 MS. MARCUS: Objection.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus.
15 MS. MARCUS: The -- counsel asked a compound question and witness
16 answered only one. I'm not sure it was clear which question she was
17 answering.
18 MR. ALARID: That's possible that that's a clarification,
19 Your Honour.
20 Q. Ma'am, breaking the question up, the person did identify him as a
21 journalist; is that what you're saying today?
22 A. As a journalist, and I have nothing to add.
23 Q. And so nothing to add is you're not aware of what news agency or
24 organization this journalist worked for?
25 A. I can't tell you. I don't know about the agency.
Page 817
1 Q. But let's just go through what this journalist may have generated
2 and see if some of these facts are true or not; does that sound fair?
3 A. Sure.
4 Q. And would it be fair to say that your memory of events related to
5 the summer of 1992 were fresher in your mind in July of 1992?
6 A. I don't think I understand your question.
7 Q. Well, ma'am, you stated on direct examination that you have
8 difficulty recognising the gentlemen in the courtroom because 16 years
9 have passed; isn't that true?
10 A. Yes. It's difficult because they killed half my family.
11 Q. And "they," are you specifically referring to the gentlemen in
12 the courtroom today or are you just referring to "they" as Serbians in
13 general?
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
15 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry, just one correction in transcript with
16 your leave, page 48, line 5, I think the witness answered "hamam." She
17 used the word "hamam."
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Meaning what?
19 Interpreter, what does that mean?
20 MR. CEPIC: That "hamam" killed them or something in that sense.
21 "Hamam," it means something like -- I just hear interpretation not in
22 Serbian, it is in Bosnian, it means something like possibly or -- it's
23 Arabian word, it's not Serbian or Bosnian word, actually. So if we have
24 more clarification about that issue, I think it would be useful. Thank
25 you very much. I do apologise for interrupting.
Page 818
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask the interpreter.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the word used nor
3 do we understand Arabic.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let me go back then to the witness.
5 Witness, you were asked -- you were reminded that in direct
6 examination you said you had difficulty recognising the gentlemen in the
7 courtroom because 16 years had passed, and counsel asked you: "Isn't
8 that true?"
9 And the answer which have on the transcript is: "Yes. It's
10 difficult because they killed half my family."
11 Was that what you said?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.
14 MR. ALARID:
15 Q. And, ma'am, what do you mean by the word "hamam"?
16 A. "Aman," "aman," it's a Turkish word. It means, if I try to give
17 you all the names I don't think 20 volumes would be sufficient to give
18 all their names, how many people they killed and how many people they
19 wronged and how much evil they caused, Milan and Sredoje Lukic.
20 Q. What is -- would be your definition of the word "aman," the
21 Turkish word?
22 A. "Aman," this is a Turkish word. Many people were involved, it
23 wasn't just them, and killed Muslims.
24 Q. So you spoke in terms of generally the Serbians killing half your
25 family as opposed to specifically the gentlemen in this courtroom today?
Page 819
1 A. Those two as well caused a lot of harm.
2 Q. But in fact you had specific information that other people had --
3 identified had killed your husband in fact?
4 A. Other people, the man's name is Slobodan Tripkovic and he lives
5 at --
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't understand the location.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you just repeat the last part of your
8 answer, Witness, the interpreter did not get it. Where does Slobodan
9 live?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Visegrad at Okoliste.
11 MR. ALARID:
12 Q. He lives there today?
13 A. Well, I can't say.
14 Q. When did he live there, as far as your recollection allows you?
15 A. Since he was born.
16 Q. And when was the last time you had information of his
17 whereabouts?
18 A. The last time I saw him was in 2002 and he was still at Okoliste.
19 Q. And that's in Visegrad?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. And so he lived with impunity after supposedly killing your
22 husband in the town of Visegrad?
23 A. He has not been punished or even arrested yet.
24 Q. And he wasn't charged with being a member of the White Eagles as
25 you knew him to be?
Page 820
1 A. Well, I can't say. He was with the White Eagles. He was killing
2 Muslims, so he must have belonged to some army or other.
3 Q. Now, I would like to go back to the first page of the statement
4 and right below the term "statement" there are some facts that I would
5 like you to either agree or disagree with. Would you agree that the SDS
6 and Serbian Democratic Party extremists from Visegrad and the
7 surroundings were saying that Serbia -- or excuse me, Visegrad was going
8 to be the Greater Serbia before the fighting even started?
9 A. That was a long time ago. They said there wouldn't be a war and
10 then they sang songs to the effect that they would create Greater Serbia.
11 Q. And so you heard this and that would have been something you
12 would have given to this interviewer?
13 A. I personally heard them saying that.
14 Q. And this would have been information that you would have passed
15 on to investigating persons investigating the death of your husband as
16 well as the violence in Visegrad; isn't that true?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you would have -- and is it true that officials of the SDS
19 party were carrying a Chetnik flag with skulls on it at the time; is that
20 true?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you knew some of those officials by sight. Can you name
23 them?
24 A. Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, Mitar Vasiljevic, Veselin Vucelja,
25 and then I can't remember the rest.
Page 821
1 Q. And are you saying you knew as officials of the SDS prior to the
2 fighting starting in Visegrad?
3 A. I didn't know if they were from that or not. It was only after
4 the war had begun that I learned.
5 Q. And nowhere in any of these statements are you saying that you
6 saw any of these gentlemen with the black flag with the skull on it;
7 isn't that true?
8 A. I saw Milan Lukic carrying a black flag with a skull.
9 Q. Now after those -- isn't it true that you saw one of the members
10 of the SDS tell the people in the square that --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
12 Ms. Marcus.
13 MS. MARCUS: I may be mistaken but I believe there was something
14 omitted from the translation of the last answer.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: She said: "I saw Milan Lukic carrying a black
16 flag with a skull," and then she mentions a name.
17 What did you say after that, Witness?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said Milan Lukic was carrying
19 that flag in Behka's Passat as well, personally. It was in some car
20 before and then it was on Behka's car that he put that flag.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
22 MR. ALARID:
23 Q. How was it mounted to the Passat, the flag?
24 A. Well, I can't say. I can't explain. You have to ask the
25 accused.
Page 822
1 Q. Well, I'm asking you. You said you saw it. Is it on the front?
2 Is it on the back? Is it on top? How was it attached?
3 A. Mostly it was inside, on the inside of the door. I can't
4 remember it, if it was the driver's door or not. For the most part not
5 because it was him who drove, it had to be the back seat door and
6 sometimes they would hold it in their hands.
7 Q. Before the fighting, is it true that an official of the SDS told
8 dozens of people in -- publicly in the town of Visegrad that
9 Greater Serbia would be formed in Visegrad?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And this caused insecurity between -- to be spread amongst the
12 Muslims?
13 A. We trusted everyone. We thought the war would never happen.
14 Q. But don't -- isn't it true that such nationalistic talk amongst
15 the SDS would cause fear and insecurity amongst the Muslims?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Mr. Alarid.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.
19 MR. ALARID:
20 Q. And, ma'am, were these officials of the SDS Risto Perisic, do you
21 know who that was?
22 A. Risto Perisic, yes, I know, but I can't say who he was.
23 Q. What about Branimir Savovic?
24 A. I don't know about him.
25 Q. What about Veselin Vucelja?
Page 823
1 A. Veselin Vucelja was over at Bikavac. What was he, he wore the
2 same clothes as they. How should I know? He worked with some service of
3 theirs or other.
4 Q. And yet, in your first statement of the 14th of March, 2001, you
5 considered Mr. Vucelja the leader of the White Eagles; isn't that true?
6 A. [No interpretation]
7 Q. And the answer is yes, ma'am?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, in the statement to the purported journalist, there is
10 information that propaganda was being published to the Serbians and
11 Muslims alike, of course, that Serbians were being exterminated in
12 Visegrad; is that true?
13 A. Serbs were moving out of their own accord; no one was
14 exterminating them.
15 Q. Yet they were fearful because of what they were hearing on the
16 news and the radio?
17 MS. MARCUS: Objection.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 MS. MARCUS: I'm not sure that this witness has any basis for
20 explaining how the Serbs in town felt.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will hear her answer.
22 Are you able to answer that question, Witness?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, move on, Mr. Alarid.
25 MR. ALARID:
Page 824
1 Q. Is it -- do you know if the Serbians were hearing that Serbian
2 children were being roasted on spits?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you know if they were -- heard that they were being -- Serbian
5 women were being shod like horses?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were Serbians hearing that other Serbians were being forced from
8 their homes --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, I'm going to stop you. I don't
10 believe she can really say what Serbians were hearing.
11 MR. ALARID:
12 Q. Is it true that in March of 1992 you were working at the
13 Terpentin family -- factory, excuse me?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you had a colleague named Mara, who was a Serbian, at that
16 time?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And she told you that she was afraid that the Green Berets would
19 slaughter them and she, in fact, left her job; isn't that true?
20 A. She left herself.
21 Q. Did she tell you that -- did you tell her that it was not true
22 that the Green Berets were slaughtering Serbians?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did she tell you that, You'll see when our Serbs come to
25 slaughter you?
Page 825
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then soon after that she left her job and left Visegrad?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. She took her children with her?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And so would it be fair to say that the journalist would not have
7 been able to get that information had -- and was it a man? A woman? Was
8 it several people that spoke to you?
9 MS. MARCUS: Objection, compound question.
10 MR. ALARID:
11 Q. Who spoke to you, ma'am, that you think is a journalist?
12 A. A man.
13 Q. Was it only one person or was there more than one person even if
14 only one was asking questions?
15 A. Two other men.
16 Q. Do you know if either of those men were, in fact, authorities
17 maybe or police officers investigating crimes in Visegrad?
18 A. He introduced himself as a journalist.
19 Q. Would it be fair to say that in 1992 you would have been happy to
20 give a statement against the crimes of Visegrad?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, was it this time before the fighting started that a number
23 of SDS extremists took to the woods and began attacks on Dobrun, Kabernik
24 and Srenicka [sic]?
25 A. Dobrun, Kabernik and Nezuci.
Page 826
1 Q. And on the 10th of April, that's an important date for you in
2 your memory, is it not?
3 A. Yes, the most important.
4 Q. And that's when your brother came to you and said he was going to
5 join Murat at the dam?
6 A. [No interpretation]
7 Q. What did your brother tell you that day?
8 A. He said that I should go and that he'll have to -- that Murat
9 would let the dam break. That's all he said.
10 Q. Now, was your house threatened by the water or the flood where it
11 was located or was it on high ground?
12 A. My house was just above the dam on a slight elevation, but there
13 was nothing in our house.
14 Q. Would it be fair to say that they wanted to let the water out of
15 the dam to cut off the bridges that would allow Serbians to go into
16 primarily Muslim territory on the other side of the Drina?
17 A. Can you please repeat that.
18 Q. Would it be fair to say that the strategy behind letting the
19 water out of the dam was to break bridges so that Serbians would not be
20 able to across into Muslim territory?
21 MS. MARCUS: Objection, calls for speculation.
22 MR. ALARID: If she can answer, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you know anything about that strategy,
24 Witness? Do you know what was behind that strategy, what was its
25 purpose?
Page 827
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
2 MR. ALARID:
3 Q. Well, later on you indicate that one of the bridges was broken on
4 the Drina by the water being let out of the dam; is that true?
5 A. Yes, the bridge was broken.
6 Q. Were other bridges damaged or broken because of the water being
7 let out of the dam?
8 A. I don't know the answer to that.
9 Q. And at that time you first fled your home and went to Gorazde;
10 correct?
11 A. All of my people went to Gorazde, my father was seriously ill, I
12 stayed in Visegrad therefore.
13 Q. Because he could not travel at that time, your father?
14 A. He was very seriously ill and he could not leave the house.
15 Q. And you recall the date that the Uzice Corps came into town as
16 the 13th of April, 1992?
17 A. I cannot remember exactly, I cannot remember the date.
18 Q. Why can't you remember that date?
19 A. I cannot remember because I wasn't interested. I was never
20 interested in politics.
21 Q. Well, when the Uzice Corps came into town, that was a large
22 amount of troops, armour, and weapons coming into the territory and these
23 troops were of Serbian descent. Wouldn't that cause you concern?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Why not?
Page 828
1 A. Because when the Uzice Corps was there things were peaceful, no
2 one took anyone away and no one killed anyone; as soon as the Uzice Corps
3 left the slaughter and the killing started.
4 Q. Yet your travel during those days that the Uzice Corps was there,
5 your travel was limited to around taking care of your father; would that
6 be fair?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But you, in fact, went to Gorazde yourself; isn't that true?
9 A. I did not go to Gorazde.
10 Q. You didn't stay there -- but your family stayed there for how
11 long then?
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 A. Yes. The man asked for a glass of water. I gave him a glass of
19 water and the man said to me - I don't know this man's name, I don't know
20 who he is - he told me that we should run away because our neighbours
21 would slaughter us.
22 Q. And that was the first day the Uzice Corps came to your home?
23 A. It was when the Uzice Corps was supposed to leave.
24 Q. Okay. And I want to go back to when you first returned or your
25 family first returned from Gorazde, and isn't it true that the
Page 829
1 Uzice Corps came to your house demanding to know the location of your
2 brother Muho?
3 A. It's not Muho, it's Mujo. Yes, this man came, he's from the
4 Uzice Corps, asking where my brother was and I said I didn't know.
5 Q. And at that time he told you he knew you were lying; isn't that
6 true?
7 A. Well, even if he did say something you don't have to ask me about
8 everything.
9 Q. Well, isn't it true that he told you he'd had your phone being
10 recorded and had a cassette to that effect?
11 A. He said that and he left, and -- I mean, do you have any other
12 questions about my brother?
13 Q. Well, maybe only a couple, but I was going to move on. I'm going
14 through your earlier statement in March and asking you if these things
15 are true. And so it sounds to me like they are true; is that fair?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, counsel has just said earlier
18 statement in March. I wonder whether that was an error.
19 MR. ALARID: That was an error. I meant July of 1992.
20 Q. Now, after that they cut off your telephone, did they not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And they came back every day for seven or eight days to
23 intimidate you; isn't that true?
24 A. Repeat your question.
25 Q. That the Uzice Corps after they cut off your phone and told you
Page 830
1 they knew you'd been speaking to your brother, they came back every day
2 for seven days?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that probably caused great fear and intimidation in your
5 family; would that be fair?
6 A. Well, nothing is my fault. I'm not to be blamed for anything.
7 Why would I be afraid?
8 Q. That should be true, ma'am, but I'm sure that this brought some
9 fear that harm might befall your family.
10 A. What can be worse? They killed my husband, brother, and father.
11 Can anything be worse in this world?
12 Q. No, ma'am, I don't believe that can be worse, and that's why I'm
13 asking you about what you remember.
14 Now, after -- is it true, though, that they did come for seven
15 days and after that you decided to hide in the woods?
16 A. I hid in the woods when Behka Zukic was killed. Until then I
17 never slept in the woods, I slept in my house.
18 Q. So after the Uzice Corps came for seven days in a row that didn't
19 cause you concern enough to go hide in the woods with your family?
20 A. I answered that very same question to you a few moments ago.
21 Q. And when you were in your village and that -- could you please
22 say the name of your village so I don't mispronounce it again.
23 A. Dusce is its name.
24 Q. And in your village you saw soldiers taking Muslims away; is that
25 true?
Page 831
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you call them soldiers. How were they dressed?
3 A. Well, they wore military clothing. On their sleeves they had a
4 white eagle.
5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Alarid, what is the point you're
6 trying to make with this line of questioning?
7 MR. ALARID: I'm taking her through the events immediately
8 surrounding, of course, early -- late of May and early of June which I
9 think is all relevant time-period for the crimes accused against my
10 client. I think the level of her recollection is important, also the
11 fact that I'm going through a statement of which she says she signed but
12 did not read a typewritten one, I think laying a foundation is important
13 also because if she affirms a lot of the things in this statement that
14 was clearly in July of 1992, then I think clearly it also establishes
15 that that information only could have come from this witness because of
16 the personal nature and the details that could not have been gotten from
17 some other hearsay source.
18 Q. Now, you say you saw white eagles on their arms. Can you
19 describe this emblem with detail, please.
20 A. Listen to me, sir, can you remember what you ate 16 years ago?
21 Q. No, ma'am, but my countrymen were not taken away by people
22 wearing white eagles and I'd like to think I would remember what that
23 looked like and I'm asking you if you can recall that.
24 A. I just remember that they took people away and killed them. You
25 have the list of people who were taken away and who were killed. These
Page 832
1 people are recorded as missing. No one has ever found them. He has to
2 know where these people of ours are so that at least people would know
3 where their graves are and that they could be buried properly.
4 Q. And so would it be fair to say that you cannot identify or
5 describe this insignia that was on their arm today for the Court?
6 A. I described it once and I'm not going to describe it again.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, it's a matter of some importance, and
8 counsel has asked you whether you can describe the emblem, the white
9 eagle. Are you in a position to describe it for the benefit of the
10 Court?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can give an answer to the Judges
12 but not to the rest of these people. On the sleeve there was something
13 sewn on, this white eagle was sewn on to the sleeve.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I know you may be a little upset, Witness,
15 because you have been through a lot but the procedure which we have does
16 entitle counsel to ask questions. If the questions are in any way
17 improper, then I will not permit them to be asked. So I'll ask you to be
18 patient and to answer the questions which are asked.
19 MR. ALARID:
20 Q. Ma'am, in response to the Judge's question you said eagle was
21 sewn on. Is it eagle or eagles, as in more than one?
22 A. Eagle, one eagle, regardless of where it is worn, on a T-shirt,
23 whatever, it is just a sign, an emblem, and how many of them there were
24 with that, that I cannot tell you.
25 Q. And would it be fair to say that you had only heard later that
Page 833
1 these soldiers were members of the White Eagles; is that true?
2 A. As soon as the Uzice Corps left, these soldiers arrived. Maybe
3 there were there before that but I had never heard of them. As soon as
4 the Uzice Corps left, Behka Zukic was killed.
5 Q. And you recollect the date of that -- of an incident at the Zukic
6 home being the 21st of May, 1992; is that true?
7 A. No, the 18th, before that, in 1992.
8 Q. Why do you know that the murder of Ms. Zukic occurred on the
9 18th?
10 A. I know because Behka Zukic wanted to leave when the army was
11 leaving Visegrad. She left with her family. Sredoje Lukic and
12 Milan Lukic returned them home to Dusce. He came the second time, he
13 took away their truck. Milan Lukic on the first occasion took the Passat
14 and the next time Sredoje Lukic took the truck, and he took these people
15 away. I wish we knew at least where the graves of these people are so
16 that they could be buried properly.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can barely hear the
18 witness because of background noise and typing. Other microphones are
19 on. Could they please be switched off when she's speaking. Thank you.
20 MR. ALARID:
21 Q. And, ma'am, what time of day did the Serbians first come to the
22 Zukic home?
23 A. I cannot answer that. I don't know. I don't know what time of
24 day was. I know that they first came when they took away their Passat,
25 that was the first time. The second time when they came -- well, it's to
Page 834
1 say during the course of the day. I mean, it had to be before dark fell,
2 it couldn't have been before that because Behka was killed exactly at
3 12.00 at night.
4 Q. What time during the day did they first come --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the question.
6 The mike was off.
7 MR. ALARID:
8 Q. When they first came outside the house and stole the Passat, what
9 time of day was that?
10 A. I don't know what the answer to that question would be, what time
11 of day it was.
12 Q. Well, would it be fair to say that before the day that
13 Ms. Zukic -- the Passat was stolen, you'd never met Milan Lukic before?
14 A. I saw him before that.
15 Q. And when did you see him before this?
16 A. I saw him before they returned Behka. I saw him when I was
17 coming back from work, I saw Milan Lukic at the bridge.
18 Q. What date was this?
19 A. The 18th, that was the date, at 3.00 I left work.
20 Q. And so on the 18th -- and then you say he introduced himself;
21 correct?
22 A. Yes, possibly he introduced himself then but I personally do not
23 remember the date when he said that his name was Milan Lukic and that he
24 is 25 and that he came there to slaughter Muslims. Have you got anything
25 else?
Page 835
1 Q. Ma'am, I have a lot more, to be honest with you, because the
2 details in this kind of case are important and you are one of the few
3 people that has come forward to say you have those details in your memory
4 and we do need to exhaust them, please. Can you do that for us?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, ma'am, on the first day you met Milan Lukic what was he
7 wearing?
8 A. Military clothing. In my life I've never seen him in civilian
9 clothing.
10 Q. And as military clothing, what colour?
11 A. Well, that I cannot remember.
12 Q. Well, I mean, they could be green, they could be black, they
13 could be blue, I guess in imagination they could be any colour but I'm
14 hoping you remember.
15 A. I cannot remember.
16 Q. And you say that Mr. Lukic never wore a cap, so we can't say he
17 had anything on his head; correct?
18 A. He had nothing on his head then. Every time I saw him, he never
19 had anything on his head.
20 Q. What colour was his hair?
21 A. Oh, it was dark, black, I mean it wasn't too short, it wasn't too
22 long. He had normal hair. His cap was stuck to his blouse. How can I
23 say anything about this? I was never very knowledgeable about this kind
24 of thing.
25 Q. Well, you said that you had come very close to him on some
Page 836
1 occasions; correct?
2 A. Yes, of course, I did get close but I don't remember the date.
3 Milan Lukic, is he going to remember when he was eating cherries on the
4 bridge and when he slaughtered this man and when the corpse fell into the
5 water and when the head remained on the bridge? He should remember that,
6 not me.
7 Q. Would it be fair to say that you and your Muslim neighbours
8 talked a lot, both before and after the war, about who was responsible?
9 A. Before the war I didn't talk about who was responsible for that
10 or after the war. There are authorities who are in charge of that and
11 who should take care of that; it's not us, the ordinary citizens, who
12 should do that.
13 Q. Well, would it be fair to say that some of those authorities
14 would be the investigators in Sarajevo?
15 A. Well, I don't know how to answer that.
16 Q. And those would be the proper authorities to give a statement to;
17 wouldn't that be fair?
18 MS. MARCUS: Objection. It's quite misleading, as it's unclear
19 exactly what investigators counsel is referring to.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I don't think it's misleading. He asked
21 whether it would be fair to say that some of those authorities would be
22 the investigators in Sarajevo.
23 Perhaps you can clarify, Mr. Alarid, with more specificity. What
24 investigators are you talking about?
25 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, I mean, she claims to have given
Page 837
1 this statement to journalists -- a journalist, yet two other men were in
2 the room that did not say anything. The statement then appears with some
3 facts that I think could only have come from this witness and I think are
4 somewhat reliable. I understand the witness has different recollections
5 16 years later. However, in light of the fact that it appears on what is
6 regular and official letterhead of Bosnia and Herzegovina, clearly an
7 investigative reporting document in connection with alleged crimes, I
8 think, one, it's regular on its face in terms of authenticity purposes
9 and the fact that she affirmed that she signed it also goes to that. And
10 so I -- I'm assuming that they were investigators considering the fact
11 that, one, the nature of the report is investigative in nature, it
12 appears to serve the purpose of --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Thank you.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus.
16 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honours. The witness has not said that
17 she signed this statement. She has said that she signed a handwritten
18 version of the statement.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, you want to say something too?
20 MR. CEPIC: Yes, to add something. I think that I heard that the
21 witness said that her signature is on that statement.
22 MR. ALARID: I agree.
23 MS. MARCUS: However, both in her testimony as well as in her
24 statement from the 26th of August, she says she did not sign a typed
25 version of the statement. She confirms her signature appears there but
Page 838
1 she does not say she signed the statement. In fact, she says she signed
2 only a handwritten version of the statement.
3 MR. ALARID: And on the transcript, page 44, line 22, I believe
4 is the answer to that question. The question -- my question was: "But
5 regardless, you do identify your signature at the end of the Serbian
6 typewritten statement; is that correct?"
7 And the answer was: "Yes, that's my signature."
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, so what is it that you want to do
10 now?
11 MR. ALARID: Well, to be honest, Your Honour, I was doing this
12 foundational kind of back -- going back further than I cared to because
13 the state had objected to the foundational requirements for this earlier
14 statement, which of course we got through the OTP in their disclosure so
15 it's not like we, you know, fabricated this, it came from them. And in
16 fact, we just received the signed statement this last week, of which I
17 wouldn't have even been able to ask that question.
18 I would prefer to introduce the statement, allow the Court to
19 assess the weight of the earlier statement against changes that have
20 obviously subsequently been made in the OTP statement of March -- and
21 that's why I misspoke as to March of 2001, and also she made some
22 corrections on her proofing statements and I think it would be helpful
23 for the Chamber to have all statements when they review the evidence in
24 the final and then I could move on to the more pertinent, factual
25 allegations against Mr. Lukic.
Page 839
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, introduce the statement.
2 MR. ALARID: At this time we would tender the statements marked
3 as 1D00-3146 -- oh, I guess it wasn't admitted but I did tender,
4 Your Honour.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, those statements are already in
6 evidence as Exhibits 1D23 and 1D24.
7 MR. ALARID: I guess when the Prosecutor objected, I thought it
8 was still up in the air.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it's already in evidence. What is the
10 question you wish to put now?
11 MR. ALARID: I can move on, Judge.
12 Q. Now, you did have an opportunity to review this earlier
13 typewritten statement, ma'am, and you again say that you never gave it or
14 signed a typewritten one. But yet you did have an opportunity to review
15 the facts; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And it would be fair to say in that statement you indicated that
18 the contact at the Zukic home was in fact on the 21st of 1992; correct?
19 A. The 18th in 1992.
20 Q. When -- I understand today you're testifying that it was the
21 18th, but in the earlier statement, which you at least reviewed, it said
22 it was the 21st; correct?
23 A. 21st is not correct.
24 Q. And again I ask you: Would it be fair to say that a person's
25 memory should be better a month or two after an incident as opposed to
Page 840
1 several years after an incident? Would that be fair?
2 A. In 1992 there was still a war going on and I was down there and
3 it's hard to forget that.
4 Q. And so again, your memory should be very clear in July of 1992;
5 wouldn't that be fair?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, with regards to the Zukic incident, isn't it true that when
8 the Passat was taken Ms. Zukic was still alive?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that who did that left and then night fell; correct?
11 A. The one who did it, Milan Lukic did it, he took his -- took
12 Behka's Passat and drove away. And Sredoje Lukic, in the other vehicle,
13 he drove off in front of their house. Now, was it night-time or not,
14 that I don't know the answer to.
15 Q. Well -- but wouldn't it be fair to say that it would be really
16 hard to identify people in the dark?
17 A. If it was night-time, well, I saw Milan Lukic when he killed
18 Behka. No one can convince me otherwise, when he killed her personally.
19 If necessary, I can describe it very well for you. I know what Behka was
20 wearing as well.
21 Q. You say that the murder of Ms. Zukic occurred at around midnight?
22 A. Yes, yes, that's exactly when it happened, 12.00. One gun-shot
23 and that killed Behka at 12.00 at night, and he told me that I'd be the
24 next victim.
25 Q. What was the name of your father-in-law?
Page 841
1 A. Jakuf Kahriman.
2 Q. And isn't it true that your father-in-law woke you up at 2355 in
3 the evening?
4 A. I can't remember that.
5 Q. Isn't it true that your father-in-law woke you up, telling you
6 that they've ripped everything out of Ms. -- out of the Tabakovic house?
7 A. Tabakovic, the robbery was the day before, or rather, the day
8 after, not the day before. Behka was killed on the 18th, meaning the
9 Tabakovics got home on the 19th and they started taking all that stuff
10 away.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, we're going to take the break now,
12 half an hour.
13 --- Recess taken at 11.40 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, let us move quickly.
16 MR. ALARID: [Microphone not activated]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: More focused. Time is not indeterminate.
18 MR. ALARID: I'll do my best, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Marcus.
20 MS. MARCUS: Mr. President, Your Honours, I just wanted to say
21 that before we started this witness's testimony the witness made a
22 sincere request to be -- to complete before the weekend so that she could
23 return to her family. I'm merely putting that on the record. I leave it
24 in your hands.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry you didn't say that before, but we'll
Page 842
1 do our best, you know. It may not be possible.
2 MR. ALARID:
3 Q. Ma'am --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: And of course, you are aware that we are
5 stopping at 1.15 today? Yes.
6 MR. ALARID:
7 Q. Ma'am, going back to the day that Mrs. Zukic was killed, that was
8 late in the afternoon, after midnight; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you didn't see exactly who killed Ms. Zukic because you were
11 not in her house; correct?
12 A. I wasn't in her house but I went in when Milan Lukic killed
13 Behija Zukic.
14 Q. And so you actually saw the trigger being pulled is what you're
15 saying today?
16 A. I didn't see the trigger being pulled. I just saw Milan Lukic
17 hold a rifle, and he held his trigger at the switch.
18 Q. Now, isn't it true that in order to get into the home of
19 Ms. Zukic, Huso Jamak had to kick in the door?
20 A. I don't remember that.
21 Q. And isn't it true that the assailants of Ms. Zukic on that night
22 left in a white car?
23 A. No, not in a white car. The people were taken away in a lorry,
24 in a white car, and when Milan killed Behka he left in her Passat --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, you have used 44 minutes. I am not
Page 843
1 expecting that you will be taking up the rest of the time at all.
2 MR. ALARID: And how much time longer do I have, Your Honour?
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I would say another 20 minutes.
4 MR. ALARID: Thank you, sir.
5 Q. And at what time did Ms. Zukic's daughter arrive at the scene?
6 A. She arrived, I can't remember when exactly. The morning we came,
7 I covered Behka's body and the daughter cried and she said, My mom has
8 been killed. And I said, No, that's not true. I didn't have the courage
9 to face up to them and tell them that their mother had been killed.
10 Q. And that is when Huso Jamak, who is her daughter's uncle, was
11 there?
12 A. Yes, he was and he left - what shall I call that? - I'm not sure
13 what you call that here, some sort of an ambulance. He went to a
14 hospital. Some doctor came and Behka was taken away immediately in that
15 car.
16 Q. Well, wasn't Omer Omerovic there as well and --
17 A. Omer Omerovic was taken away. Omer Omerovic could not possibly
18 have been there because he lives not a huge distance from Behka's place.
19 Q. And Uzeir Imamovic?
20 A. I can't remember that.
21 Q. Do you know Mr. Imamovic?
22 A. Yes, I used to know him.
23 Q. And isn't it true that it was them that went off to get a doctor
24 and order the ambulance, not Huso.
25 A. Huso himself went away to call the doctor, Huso Jamak.
Page 844
1 Q. Would it be fair to say that the names of Omer and Uzeir would
2 not have been available to the investigators or journalists in Sarajevo
3 had you not mentioned their names?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Now, after this incident you relocated to the home of Remzo?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that was also with your husband?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And isn't it true that on that next day at 1.00 in the afternoon
10 the Chetniks had come to the home looking for Remzo?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And they searched the home?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And tell me about the Chetnik leader Buko?
15 A. His name was Buco, not Buko.
16 Q. I apologise, ma'am, it's my pronunciation in reading this. Tell
17 me about Buco.
18 A. Well, he came, he took my gold and jewellery away, he took
19 everything that I had on me, my money, and then he told me if I ever went
20 to see the police about that, they'd be back to kill me and my kids.
21 Q. And he also came back the next day and robbed you again?
22 A. Yes, that's right. He came back and he wanted my earrings, the
23 ones that I was actually wearing. There was a man who was there with him
24 and he said, What about what the lady gave you last night, you find that
25 not to be enough or what?
Page 845
1 Q. And then a little later you saw four Chetniks pass by in a
2 passenger car and stop at the Kustura house; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And they took Hasib Murtic red Fiat?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And this was all the next day after Ms. Zukic was killed?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then three men -- or excuse me, four men went into the home
9 including Hasib and only three men came out; isn't that true?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And after -- on the second day after their arrival you decided to
12 go into the home; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that's when you found Mr. Murtic killed; correct?
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Marcus.
16 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honours, I'm wondering about the relevance
17 of this line of questioning.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, what's the relevance?
19 MR. ALARID: The relevance is that this is all the time-period
20 concerning issues surrounding the allegations of -- against my client,
21 Milan Lukic. I believe that there are material changes between earlier
22 statements and the most recent statements, including the proofing
23 statement. I think we need to go through, explore her recollection,
24 because it appears that some of the original 1992 were very, very correct
25 in terms of this witness's recollection of those --
Page 846
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you are coming to the discrepancies?
2 MR. ALARID: Yes.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, do so quickly.
4 MR. ALARID:
5 Q. And at no time do you identify who you thought was Milan Lukic as
6 part of this particular situation?
7 A. I didn't identify him when he came to Murtic's.
8 Q. And there was a man that was killed, Safet Omerovic?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When was he killed?
11 A. I can't say.
12 Q. And you indicated earlier or would it be true that the criminals
13 who killed him were Serbs, our neighbours, wearing stockings over their
14 faces?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then would it be fair to say that during this time-period the
17 Chetniks continued to loot Muslim houses in Dusce?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And this continued until the 10th of June, 1992, when you saw two
20 Chetniks go into the Varda company?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And isn't it true that they removed a total of five workers from
23 the Varda factory and two from the sawmill?
24 A. I can't remember that.
25 Q. Isn't it true that the seven workers were taken out by the two
Page 847
1 Chetniks to the Drina -- the bridge over the Drina which had been
2 destroyed?
3 A. It was under the bridge that the people were killed. I'm not
4 sure who described it that way. It was under the bridge, wasn't it,
5 maybe 1 or 3 kilometres away.
6 Q. And how far away from you [sic] were you when you saw this
7 killing?
8 A. 2 kilometres away, when Milan Lukic brought those people there.
9 He told them to get into the river and he shot them from behind, but I
10 didn't recognise anyone.
11 Q. And so you didn't recognise the workers but you recognised
12 Mr. Milan Lukic from 2 kilometres away?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And isn't it true, though, that the Chetniks that committed that
15 killing got into a blue car?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Would it be fair to say that the Chetniks that committed this
18 crime had unusually large kokarda on their caps?
19 A. I can't really say. Mitar Vasiljevic wore a hat and he had a
20 huge kokarda displayed on that hat.
21 Q. That was a cowboy hat?
22 A. Yes, black.
23 Q. And you remember the 10th of June so well because, of course,
24 that was the day your husband was killed or you at least found out that
25 he was killed; isn't that true, ma'am?
Page 848
1 A. I remember that my was killed on the 10th of June, 1992, at
2 Osojnica.
3 Q. And that is where you know the people to have done this were
4 Slobodan Tripkovic and Ranko; isn't that true?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And Slobodan Tripkovic carried a sniper rifle; isn't that true?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you otherwise describe him besides the sniper rifle?
9 A. I have nothing to --
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the last word.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just repeat what you said, Witness. Can you
12 repeat the answer you gave?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't describe that man. He had
14 a sniper.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 Mr. Alarid, you have about seven minutes left.
17 MR. ALARID: Yes, sir, thank you.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Be sure that you utilise the time efficiently.
19 Ms. Marcus.
20 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honours, I submit that the line of
21 questioning with regard to the Varda incident that we just passed from
22 was misleading to the witness because the question -- the first question
23 on that was the 10th of June when you saw the Chetniks go to the Varda
24 factory. And then when he asked about the killing she said: "I can't
25 remember that." Then counsel proceeded to ask her about this killing.
Page 849
1 Now, the witness does speak about an incident that she observed at the
2 Varda factory which was a killing but she offers a different date. So I
3 submit that this is somewhat misleading and that that issue should be
4 clarified.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.
6 MR. ALARID: Well, I believe that the different date that is
7 being referred to was not testified by the witness but is otherwise in
8 her inconsistent statements which have been also tendered into evidence.
9 I think it would be for the Court to assess the weight of those
10 statements against each other.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yeah, proceed.
12 MR. ALARID:
13 Q. Now, ma'am, would it be fair to say that you were not able to
14 bury your husband?
15 A. I wasn't able to do that. They didn't hand over my husband's
16 body for me to bury.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, you're drowning us in a sea of
18 fairness.
19 MR. ALARID: Well, it's a bad habit, Your Honour.
20 Q. Now, you testified that, in fact, in Ms. Zukic's home you spoke
21 with Milan Lukic specifically and he told you to get out of his way;
22 isn't that true?
23 A. He didn't tell me to get out of the way. He just said I'd be the
24 next victim.
25 Q. Don't you think it's illogical that he would allow you to live at
Page 850
1 that point in time if he was willing to kill another Muslim woman?
2 A. Why didn't he just kill me right there and then? I guess you'd
3 have to ask him about that, why he didn't.
4 Q. Now, isn't it true that the date you left on the buses from
5 the -- in front of the Visegrad Hotel was June 15th?
6 A. The 14th, that's when I saw Milan Lukic; on the 15th, we left
7 Visegrad.
8 Q. And that's what I asked you, isn't it true that on the bus it was
9 June 15th; is that fair?
10 A. The 15th of June outside the hotel in Visegrad, that's where we
11 left from.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very quickly, Mr. Cepic, how long will you be?
13 MR. CEPIC: Half an hour roughly.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: And will there be any re-direct -- sorry,
16 re-examination?
17 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour, a few minutes.
18 MR. ALARID: Okay.
19 Q. And isn't it true that the night before you left on the bus you
20 spent the night with a colleague, Jasmina?
21 A. I can't remember that.
22 Q. Do you remember the night before you left on the bus where you
23 spent the night?
24 A. I spent it somewhere in the town, but I don't remember where
25 exactly.
Page 851
1 Q. Do you know Jasmina, do you remember her?
2 A. I can't.
3 Q. Does she live in -- do you know the Vucine residential area?
4 Would that --
5 A. It's a neighbourhood, that was where I spent the night, in
6 Vucine, but I can't remember at whose place.
7 Q. Is it true that Jasmina lives in that neighbourhood?
8 A. She lived somewhere or other, I'm not sure where and I'm not sure
9 where I spent that night.
10 Q. And do you know a Ferid Spahic, Zuco?
11 A. Zuco, yes, I know him, they called him Zuco. About Ferid, I
12 never knew his real name.
13 Q. Was Zuco on the bus with you that was later separated --
14 A. No, no, he wasn't.
15 Q. What about Mr. Spahic?
16 A. No.
17 Q. But at the very least, you're certain you were on the bus on the
18 15th; would that be fair?
19 A. Yes, I'm certain about that.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues]... I apologise.
21 Why are you so certain about the 15th?
22 A. I'm certain and I can swear upon it, on the 15th of June, 1992,
23 that's when we left Visegrad.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, you have exhausted the time allotted
25 to you. It is now the turn of Mr. Cepic to cross-examine.
Page 852
1 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, good afternoon.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. Perhaps you could look me in the eye so I can introduce myself.
7 I'm Djuro Cepic. I'm here on behalf of Mr. Sredoje Lukic. I will be
8 asking you a couple of questions.
9 MR. CEPIC: Could you scroll down this statement, please. A
10 little bit more.
11 Q. [Interpretation] What we see in the lower corner at the bottom of
12 the page, that's your signature, right?
13 A. Yes, that's my signature, but --
14 THE INTERPRETER: And then the speakers overlap and the
15 interpreter didn't get that portion.
16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Thank you. You provided a physical description of my client
18 today, Mr. Sredoje Lukic. You say --
19 MS. MARCUS: Objection.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 MS. MARCUS: Mr. President, Your Honours, the witness's answer
22 was cut off and then never clarified.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was the answer? There's no answer. The --
24 you were asked the question, Witness, that you provided a physical
25 description of Mr. Sredoje Lukic --
Page 853
1 MS. MARCUS: Sorry, Mr. President, I'm talking about the question
2 before, where the witness was asked: "... that's your signature, right?"
3 And the witness said: "... that's my signature, but," and then
4 the interpreter said the speakers overlapped so he didn't get the last
5 answer.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will you finish that answer for us, Witness, in
7 relation to your signature.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my signature, but it wasn't
9 written like this. It was a handwritten statement.
10 MR. CEPIC: May I continue, Your Honour?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes, continue.
12 MR. CEPIC: In the interests of time -- short time.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, we got this statement from the OTP, we
14 got it as your statement and as a statement that was authentic. Are you
15 trying to tell us that the state authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina or the
16 OTP are using a document that is ill-founded? Is that your evidence?
17 A. What I'm saying is it wasn't written like this. The journalist
18 introduced himself and --
19 Q. Thank you. What about after the 1992 statement, up until 2001
20 when you provide another statement to the investigators of the OTP --
21 between these two statements did you provide any other statements to any
22 of the appropriate authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the public
23 prosecutor, anyone like that?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Does that not strike you as slightly illogical? It had been a
Page 854
1 long time after all. You are a witness. You are also an injured party.
2 You are a victim. Doesn't that strike you as slightly illogical?
3 A. No, it doesn't.
4 Q. Thank you. Of course you know about the 1992 statement. You
5 signed each and every page of that statement. No reference to my
6 client's name, Sredoje Lukic, whatsoever, you know that, don't you?
7 A. I can't quite remember specifically.
8 Q. Thank you. How did it happen that you gave this statement in
9 1992?
10 A. I gave a statement to The Hague Tribunal in 2001 in my country,
11 in the country in which I currently reside. Can you please re-ask that
12 question.
13 Q. Who got in touch with you about that statement and who mediated?
14 A. I can't remember the name of the man back in 2001. It was a
15 Hague investigator and he wanted me to give a statement.
16 Q. Who had given him your phone number?
17 A. That's not something that I can say.
18 Q. You tell us today that you used to see Sredoje Lukic three times
19 a day on the streets of Visegrad. In your statement dated 2001, you
20 described him in the following terms, a man somewhat shorter than
21 Milan Lukic and you didn't know what his job was?
22 A. I did.
23 Q. What sort of clothes was he wearing at the time you used to see
24 him three times a day, rather sporty or maybe a black tie?
25 A. Now, this is something that I can't remember.
Page 855
1 Q. Sporting a moustache, a beard perhaps?
2 A. Let me ask you something, sir, if you think back to that time,
3 could you possibly remember if he wore a moustache or a beard.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just answer the questions asked by counsel.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember that.
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. You told us today that you used to see him three times a day.
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Yet you can't remember this type of detail? That's what you're
10 telling us today, right?
11 A. Yes, that's right, I can't remember that type of detail.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. CEPIC: Could we have Exhibit number P33 on our screens and
14 paragraph 28, please. This is page -- I think fifth page in English and
15 in B/C/S it should be also fifth. The statement of this witness from
16 2001, 34.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, we're waiting for this to come up on our
18 screens but let's try to cover some ground before that happens. You
19 describe a rather serious incident in Visegrad that occurred sometime
20 in -- late in May 1992. In the square outside the Visegrad Hotel a
21 local, an ethnic Croat, was impaled, his name was Slavko?
22 A. I can't remember that.
23 Q. Let me see if I can jog your memory.
24 MR. CEPIC: Yes, that's fine, thank you. And could we have also
25 in B/C/S -- yes, it has to be the fifth page. Could we have on second
Page 856
1 part of our screens in English also, please.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Before this turns up, I mean before the English
3 comes up, can you please read paragraph 2. It reads: "One of the last
4 days of May 1992 ..."
5 A. "One of the last days of May 1992, I saw that a local of Croat
6 ethnicity had been impaled on the square in front of Visegrad Hotel. His
7 name was Slavko and I didn't know his last name. He was a lab technician
8 taking blood samples at the hospital ..."
9 Q. Thank you. Does this jog your memory?
10 A. No, it doesn't.
11 Q. Is this your statement, Madam?
12 A. It is my statement. Some bits appear to have been added -- not
13 the entire statement is mine and I'm referring to the Bosnian over here,
14 the statement I gave to the OTP investigators -- I agree with that
15 statement in every respect.
16 Q. This is your statement to the OTP investigators in 2001?
17 A. Okay, that's right, I gave a statement, but again I'm telling you
18 I can't quite remember, can I.
19 MR. CEPIC: Could we have -- could we scroll down in English this
20 page just to check the signature.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, are these your initials over here, did
22 you sign this?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Madam, can we conclude that what is written in this statement
25 does not reflect what it was that you wanted to say?
Page 857
1 A. Again, I'm telling you I can't remember that day, but I do know
2 that Sredoje Lukic killed a man and impaled him. Now, what day that
3 happened I really cannot remember right now.
4 Q. Well, first of all, let's have a look at this. This Slavko, this
5 lab technician who took blood samples in the hospital --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You knew him?
8 A. Yes, I knew the man personally.
9 Q. He was 50-something at that point when he was killed; right?
10 A. I don't know how old he was. I can't say exactly what his age
11 was.
12 Q. That was the only man in the lab of the Visegrad medical centre;
13 right?
14 A. There were several of them.
15 Q. But he was the only Slavko?
16 A. No, he was not the only Slavko. There were several men who
17 worked at the lab in Visegrad.
18 Q. Ma'am, could you describe to us where it was that you stood on
19 that day?
20 A. Sir, if you really want to know, I stood in front of the
21 department store in Visegrad.
22 Q. How many people were there?
23 A. Well, they were all there and Sredoje Lukic was among them, and
24 as for us civilians there weren't that many of us.
25 Q. Could you give us some details about this Slavko. What did he
Page 858
1 look like? How old was he? What was he wearing?
2 A. Sir, I'm telling you yet again, I cannot remember how old he was
3 and what he was wearing.
4 Q. Madam, what kind of a day was this?
5 A. Well, that I really don't know, what kind of a day it was.
6 Q. Where was the impaling rod?
7 A. If you really want to know, it was on the square by the street
8 that used to be called Marsal Tito Street.
9 Q. Who else was there in addition to yourself, as far as civilians
10 were concerned?
11 A. No one, just me.
12 Q. A few moments ago you said that there were several of you.
13 A. I said several of us, but I mean it's not sort of like normal
14 citizens wearing normal clothes.
15 Q. Would you agree with me, since you say that you knew this
16 Slavko --
17 A. Why would I agree?
18 Q. Let me just say what I have to say. That Slavko Tomic then was
19 50-something, that he was the only man who was a lab technician, and the
20 only one who took blood samples at the hospital and the only Slavko, over
21 several decades at that, who worked at the Visegrad hospital and whose
22 name was Slavko. You have to agree with me on that.
23 A. I cannot agree with you on that because several people worked in
24 Visegrad taking blood samples, it wasn't only Slavko.
25 Q. Give us a specific detail so that we would distinguish between
Page 859
1 this Slavko and some other Slavko.
2 A. I'm telling you yet again, sir, I don't know what the man's last
3 name was. He was an ethnic Croat, this man was, the only Croat living in
4 Visegrad.
5 Q. I'm asking you once again whether you remember how old he was and
6 what he looked like?
7 A. I do not remember how old he was and I don't remember what the
8 man looked like.
9 Q. Madam, can you give us some more information that would throw
10 more light on this grave incident in relation to Slavko or in relation to
11 anything else? You say here that you knew him very well?
12 A. I knew the man but I'm telling you, I cannot remember what it was
13 that the man was wearing and what he was like. I mean, I cannot remember
14 that picture. There was one Slavko who was a Serb and there was one
15 Slavko who was a Croat, sir, if you really want to know.
16 Q. How old was the one who was the victim roughly?
17 A. I told you very nicely, I don't know how old the man was.
18 MR. CEPIC: My learned friend is on --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I think this question has been asked
21 and answered numerous times.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, move on, Mr. Cepic.
23 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, would you be surprised if I were to tell
25 you that I carried out an investigation on the basis of this statement of
Page 860
1 yours and that in the history of the Visegrad medical centre there was
2 just one Slavko who had worked there over a span of several decades --
3 let me finish, please. And that there was only one man, precisely this
4 Slavko, who worked in the lab. And would you be surprised if I were to
5 tell you --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us not prompt the objection, compound
7 question.
8 Would you be surprised to hear that, Witness?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay.
11 What's the next question?
12 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Madam, would you be surprised - and it is with pleasure that I
14 call upon my friends of the Prosecution to carry out an investigation in
15 relation to these assertions - that this Slavko was the only lab
16 technician in the history of the medical centre of Visegrad is alive
17 until this day and he still lives in Visegrad --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Ms. --
19 MS. MARCUS: This appears to me to be again the same question put
20 to the witness repeatedly.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next question, Mr. Cepic.
22 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I put my next
23 question, in relation to this alleged incident it is with pleasure that I
24 call upon my colleagues from the Prosecution, I'm going to give them all
25 the necessary references and let them investigate this incident if
Page 861
1 there's any doubt in their minds.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. They would have heard you. I'm not
3 sure that's the proper medium, but let's move on.
4 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, just two more questions. When you gave
6 your first statement you knew that Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic was on trial;
7 right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, could the counsel please clarify when
11 he says "first statement" so the witness will clearly understand which
12 statement he's referring to.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: What statement is it?
14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. The first statement to the OTP in 2001, the OTP of
16 The Hague Tribunal, you knew then that Mitar Vasiljevic was on trial?
17 Please go ahead. I do apologise, Madam, have you heard my question?
18 A. No, I didn't hear it. Could you repeat it.
19 Q. All right. When you made your statement to The Hague
20 investigators in 2001, you knew that proceedings against Mitar Vasiljevic
21 were underway; right?
22 A. Yes, I did know.
23 Q. Thank you. Are you a member of the Association of
24 Women War Victims?
25 A. No.
Page 862
1 MR. CEPIC: Could we have 54th paragraph, please.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, along with your statement we received a
3 page from a photo album where you drew a circle around --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the reference?
5 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry, I apologise. This is Exhibit number P --
6 the same statement, just a couple of --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see.
8 MR. CEPIC: -- paragraphs further.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Paragraph 5 --
10 MR. CEPIC: 4.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: 54.
12 MR. CEPIC: In B/C/S is the -- just one second, please.
13 MS. MARCUS: Maybe I could assist. Paragraph 54 in the English
14 is the second-to-last paragraph of the statement.
15 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we see.
17 MR. CEPIC: Eighth page.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the question?
19 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, you said under oath that you looked at
21 three series of photographs and that in one of them you recognised
22 Momir Savic. Do you see that here? Do you see what it says on your
23 screen?
24 A. I recognised Momir Savic. If necessary, I'll recognise him yet
25 again.
Page 863
1 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you another question now. Three photo
2 albums were shown to you, or rather, three photo-spreads, three pages
3 with pictures -- allow me to finish, please --
4 A. How can I remember --
5 MS. MARCUS: Objection --
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Allow me --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, just a second.
9 Yes.
10 MS. MARCUS: It seems to me that counsel is misstating the B/C/S
11 version of the witness's statement. The first time he posed the question
12 I believe he used the words of her statement which say "tri niza," which
13 is three rows. The second time he put the statement he said three pages.
14 I might be mistaken. I just want to make sure that we're very clear on
15 this point.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, what is the question that you put?
17 MR. CEPIC: Discrepancy, discrepancy, Your Honour, just if you
18 allow me. This is a wrong translation. Three photo-spreads, three
19 photo-spreads, it is shown to the witness and witness signed this
20 statement in 2001.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, you signed a statement under oath to the
22 effect that you were shown three photo-spreads; however, today you stated
23 something different. You changed your statement and you said that you
24 had only one sheet in front of you.
25 A. As far as I can remember, I just had this one sheet in front of
Page 864
1 me and I recognised Momir Savic.
2 MR. CEPIC: Just final question, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. -- again -- remember, you want this lady to
4 leave, so what is your objection this time?
5 MS. MARCUS: Simply a question that there may be a translation
6 problem.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 MS. MARCUS: And the translation problem is not the witness's
9 error but rather a translation error.
10 MR. CEPIC: Should we have to explore everything in signatures
11 and --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have about two minutes.
13 MR. CEPIC: I already finished but I just have to raise that
14 issue regarding to that objection which is this is the OTP statement, it
15 is not some other statement. This is from your -- your office.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.
17 MR. CEPIC: And huge discrepancy -- the problem is,
18 Your Honour -- but I will raise that issue as preliminary issue. The
19 problem is -- and it was about photo-spreads, missing photo-spreads. We
20 raised that issue for a couple times during the pre-trial phase and now
21 we have a clear evidence that witness is changing their testimony in
22 relation to those photo-spreads. Also related to VG-97, it was also
23 marked in his statement that it was shown to him one photo-spread, we did
24 not find that photo-spread also. This is the second problem up to now.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber notes the submissions that you have
Page 865
1 made.
2 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much. Just final question, please.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Madam, how come this change in your statement?
6 A. There is no change in my statement. If necessary --
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much. No further questions for this
9 witness.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus.
11 MR. CEPIC: I was trying to do my best to --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much and the Chamber is in
13 appreciation of your efforts.
14 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much.
15 Re-examination by Ms. Marcus:
16 Q. Ms. Kahriman, on the night that Behija Zukic was killed, how did
17 you get into her house?
18 A. I went across the terrace.
19 Q. How long after the shots were fired would you say you went into
20 her house?
21 A. Well, as soon as I saw the shot, I entered the house; that is to
22 say, Milan and Sredoje could not have left immediately. Milan was
23 holding the trigger on the rifle, whereas Sredoje's rifle was on his
24 shoulder.
25 Q. Ms. Kahriman, you described in your statement, your March 2001
Page 866
1 statement to the Tribunal, you described a killing that you observed at
2 the Varda factory. Could you clarify, please, if you recall on what date
3 you observed that killing?
4 A. The 25th of May, 1992.
5 Q. Apart from the 25th of May, 1992, incident, did you observe any
6 other incidents in relation to the Varda factory?
7 A. I can't remember that.
8 Q. Ms. Kahriman, when you were interviewed by a journalist in
9 July 1992, how many people were present at that interview?
10 A. There were two other men along with the journalist.
11 Q. Were they introduced to you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. How were they dressed?
14 A. Civilian clothes.
15 Q. Did they give you any reason to believe that they were part of
16 any authority structure?
17 A. It never could have crossed my mind because he introduced himself
18 as a journalist.
19 Q. The statement that you gave to that journalist on that day, was
20 it read back to you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you read it before you signed it?
23 A. I didn't.
24 Q. Was it typed?
25 A. No, no, handwritten.
Page 867
1 Q. In 1992, did you ever sign a typed statement?
2 A. No, I didn't.
3 Q. Have you ever given a statement to the police in Bosnia?
4 A. No.
5 MS. MARCUS: For the last question could I please ask the court
6 officer to call up the witness's statement from 2001, it's the one we
7 just had on our screen. I think it's P34, Exhibit P34, I believe, her
8 2001 statement, and could we please kindly return to that second-to-last
9 paragraph.
10 Q. Ms. Kahriman, can you see -- sorry, I'm just waiting for the text
11 to appear on the screen.
12 Can you see the paragraph in front of you on the screen?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would you be so kind, please, as to read the first line.
15 A. The first one or the second one?
16 Q. The very first line, it begins with "pokazana."
17 A. "Three series of photographs were shown to me and I was asked
18 whether I recognised any one of the photographs. From one of the series
19 I recognised the photograph of Momir Savic, number 2, I signed the
20 photograph and I wrote the name" -- the date.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
22 MS. MARCUS:
23 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether this was one page of
24 photographs or two or three pages of photographs? How many pages of
25 photographs were you shown?
Page 868
1 A. As far as I can remember, there was this one photograph shown, as
2 far as I can remember, but I'm not sure.
3 Q. So just to clarify, is this one piece of paper or more than one
4 piece of paper?
5 A. It was one piece of paper; however, there were several
6 photographs on that one piece of paper.
7 MS. MARCUS: I have no further questions, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
9 Witness, that concludes your evidence, and you may now leave. We
10 will adjourn and resume on Monday at 2.15.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.13 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day of
13 September, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25