080905ED

Page 1244

1 MS. MARCUS: Could I ask the court officer kindly to call up

2 Exhibit P74 and to turn to e-court page 4, please. Once we get to page

3 4, perhaps we could focus on the upper half of the page.

4 Q. VG-84, do you see the -- your statement on the screen in front of

5 you?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Can you see the paragraph which begins "About one-half to one

8 hour after Mitar left"?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. I'd like to ask you to read over that paragraph to yourself and

11 then I will ask you a few follow-up questions.

12 A. I have to read it aloud?

13 Q. No. You can just read it over to yourself.

14 A. Right. There's no need for me to read it. You can go ahead with

15 the questions. I have sufficient knowledge about all this.

16 Q. In this paragraph you mentioned Sredoje Lukic, and you described

17 his actions. Can you tell the Chamber how did you know Sredoje Lukic?

18 A. Yes. Two -- or, rather, three men came to the house, the

19 Memic house. There was several others behind the house, but I wasn't

20 able to observe how many of them were behind the house, and there were

21 several in front of the house. Two men came into the house, Milan Lukic

22 and Sredoje Lukic. There was one elderly man and all my neighbours and

23 friends who were in the house knew him, and 20 to 25 per cent of them

24 knew Sredoje Lukic who was allegedly a policeman. I was a child at the

25 time, so I didn't know him.

Page 1245

1 We had heard of him -- do you want me to go on explaining?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. We heard of him while we were in our village, the village of

4 Koritnik.

5 Q. VG-84, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Just a moment, please.

6 A. Very well.

7 Q. Let's just take it step-by-step. As you see, your statement is

8 on the screen in front of everybody, and we can all read it in English,

9 including the Judges, so it's also in evidence, so this will be

10 considered in detail. I'm simply going to focus you on a few small

11 follow-up questions.

12 So you say that you -- that 20 to 25 per cent of your neighbours

13 who were in the Memic house with you knew Sredoje Lukic?

14 A. Yes. Both of them. Both Sredoje and Milan. I'm telling you how

15 it was roughly. I don't know the details. I was just under 14. I

16 wasn't checking who knew him, but between 20 to 25 per cent of those who

17 were in the house knew the two men who came into the room -- or, rather,

18 the three men, because the third one remained in the corridor.

19 Q. Why would you have believed your neighbours that this was in fact

20 Sredoje Lukic?

21 A. Well, why wouldn't they believe us? This was not a town of

22 1 million. Some 10.000 inhabited it. It was a small town.

23 Q. Now, how did you know Milan Lukic?

24 A. The same was true for him. I saw him for the first time there,

25 but I had heard of him in my village of Koritnik, and though I saw him

Page 1246

1 for the first time in the house, there were others with me who knew him,

2 perhaps got to know him the same way I did.

3 Q. What -- on what basis do you believe that they knew Milan Lukic?

4 A. There were girls in the house who used to go to school with him,

5 so they used to be schoolmates, and they -- they seemed like perfect

6 strangers. It was the changing times that did their thing.

7 Q. To your knowledge was there anyone else by the name of

8 Milan Lukic in Visegrad during 1992, other than the one you're referring

9 to now?

10 A. Absolutely not.

11 MS. MARCUS: Could the court officer please focus on the middle

12 paragraph.

13 Q. It begins with the words "After they (Sredoje and his group)

14 left."

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. VG-84, I'll ask you just to take a moment, please, to read

17 through that paragraph before I ask you a few follow-up questions.

18 A. You can go ahead with the questions.

19 Q. Did you recognise any other members of the group other than

20 Sredoje Lukic?

21 A. Other than Sredoje there was Milan with him and another soldier

22 who I didn't know. He was in the house and there were several others

23 outside.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a moment. Mr. Cepic.

25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, both in the statement,

Page 1247

1 and the witness confirmed here today clearly that he hadn't known Milan

2 and Sredoje Lukic before he got to know them as he got into the house,

3 and my learned friend has been putting her question and it was formulated

4 differently.

5 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, in this paragraph which is in

6 evidence, the witness describes Sredoje Lukic. He previously testified

7 that he was informed by his neighbours who were detained with him that

8 that was in fact Sredoje Lukic, and based on his understanding he

9 describes Sredoje Lukic and his group, and in the middle of this

10 paragraph he describes there were about 10 to 15 soldiers and he's

11 mentioning soldiers. So the question was: Did you recognise any other

12 members of the group which is referred to in this paragraph. The

13 question stems directly from the witness's statement.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe the question is unobjectionable. It

15 will be for you, Mr. Cepic, in cross-examination to seek to impugn the

16 witness's knowledge of Sredoje Lukic.

17 You can question him as to the basis for his knowledge and seek

18 to destroy. Yes, please proceed.

19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 MS. MARCUS:

21 Q. VG-84, this paragraph describes the trajectory from the Memic

22 house to the Omeragic house. You mention in this paragraph that there

23 was a light at the Omeragic house. What about along the path from the

24 Memic house to the Omeragic house?

25 A. The Memic house is some 30 metres away from the Omeragic house.

Page 1248

1 This is an approximation. As we got out of the Memic house - I'm

2 describing it the way I saw it - and as I was on my way to the Omeragic

3 house, there was some light outside the house. There were torches, and

4 there was light coming from the surrounding houses. This made it

5 possible for me to see quite well.

6 Q. Why -- why do you think that the Omeragic house was the house

7 which was chosen?

8 A. Because it was right next to a creek, and this would muffle the

9 voices and the wailing of the women and the children.

10 MS. MARCUS: Could the court officer please go to the bottom of

11 the page, focusing on the bottom half.

12 Q. VG-84, I'd like to focus you on the bottom paragraph on that

13 page. Would you like to read it through briefly before I ask you some

14 follow-up questions?

15 A. You can go ahead.

16 Q. As you were hiding behind the tree with your mother, do you

17 recall hearing anything?

18 A. Yes. I heard the crying of the children, of the elderly women,

19 moans, shouts. I heard a blast and shooting. The house was engulfed in

20 flames. I didn't see much, though, because I ducked my head. I was

21 trying to make sure that I stay alive.

22 Q. To your recollection, how many children under your age at the

23 time, so under 13, were burned to death on that day?

24 A. Some 10 to 15. There was even a two-day-old baby that her mother

25 gave birth to in the nearby forests.

Page 1249

1 MS. MARCUS: Could the court officer call up 65 ter 178.52. For

2 the information of the Chamber, this is a photograph. The photograph was

3 taken on the 1st of September of 2001.

4 Q. VG-84, do you recognise what is shown on this photograph?

5 A. I do. Yes.

6 Q. Before I ask the witness to mark the photograph, would it be

7 possible to admit the unmarked photograph so that we can refer to it with

8 other witnesses?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

10 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph will become Exhibit number P77.

11 MS. MARCUS: Could I ask the court usher to assist the witness,

12 please, in marking the photograph.

13 Q. VG-84, can you identify the Memic house on this photograph?

14 A. Yes, I can.

15 Q. Could you kindly mark that location, the Memic house, with

16 an M for Memic.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Can you identify the Omeragic house?

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Okay.

21 MS. MARCUS: The witness has marked the Omeragic house with an O.

22 Q. Can you please trace the path from the Memic house to the

23 Omeragic house with an arrow.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. And can you circle the window you jumped out of with your mother?

Page 1250

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Please now kindly mark the approximate location on the creek

3 where you and your mother hid behind the tree once you had escaped, and

4 please mark that location with an X.

5 A. This is the creek, and to make it clear, this is how the creek

6 runs, and this is the tree. It was a pear tree, I believe, under

7 which -- or behind which my mother and I hid.

8 Q. VG-84, could you please place your pseudonym at the bottom of the

9 photo. You can just write "VG-84."

10 A. [Marks]

11 MS. MARCUS: And could I admit this marked photo, please. I

12 tender this marked photo.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That will become Exhibit number P78,

15 Your Honours.

16 MS. MARCUS: Could I ask the court officer, please, to call up

17 65 ter 175.7.

18 For the information of the Chamber, this is a still which is

19 taken from the 360-degree photograph.

20 Q. VG-84, do you recognise what is shown on this photograph?

21 A. Yes. A house -- or, rather, the Omeragic house.

22 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, may I tender this unmarked photo into

23 evidence so we can use it with other witnesses?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

25 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as Exhibit P79, Your Honours.

Page 1253

1 young boy to go through that I can't even begin to imagine not having

2 been through it.

3 A. Thank you for your understanding.

4 Q. And when you escaped this tragedy with your mother into the

5 creek, that was at the -- that was at the very beginning of the incident,

6 wasn't it? The fire had just started --

7 A. No, no, no. The fire had already caught in the home, and there

8 were grenades blasting, and had there been more, I would not be sitting

9 here today.

10 Q. Actually, yes, sir, that's what I meant, and all I say, though,

11 is that was it at the very beginning that this grenade, and you received

12 the shrapnel in your head?

13 A. Yes, yes. There wasn't just one grenade. There were several of

14 them falling. There was fire from -- there was shots from firearms. And

15 the fire, the way it started burning, it wasn't like you -- you had a

16 small spark, and it did not develop slowly. You could escape from such a

17 fire. But there were -- there were weapons there. There were blasts

18 from grenades. And let me clarify this. I ended up only 50 metres away.

19 Q. And the -- in looking at the photographs that the Prosecutor

20 showed you, it appears that there's a lot of vegetation on the slope into

21 the creek, in the bottom of the creek, and obviously up the other side of

22 the creek to the pear tree where you were able to hide yourselves. Is

23 that -- was it the same back then or similar?

24 A. No. There wasn't anything. There was just the undergrowth, and

25 the only tree that was there was the one we hid behind, because this was

Page 1254

1 a maintained garden. The owner of the house perhaps left the house a

2 month earlier, but it had been tended before that.

3 Q. Well, and would it be fair to say where you and your mom were

4 hiding afterwards, it was able to protect you from both -- from the

5 people on the other side of the ravine?

6 A. How would it protect me? I was only on the other side of the

7 creek. You were able to see the house and everything. It's just that we

8 didn't dare watch what was happening. I ducked my head. I almost buried

9 it in the ground. There were people with torches around. There were

10 houses around from where the light was coming.

11 Q. I'm probably using the wrong words and when it translates it even

12 gets more confused. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, trust me.

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. What I'm more concerned about is really that there was something

15 about where you were able to hide that protected you from these people

16 across the way, torches or not.

17 MS. MARCUS: Objection. This question has been asked and

18 answered.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll allow him to answer it.

20 Give us the answer.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a tree, sir. Whether it

22 was a peach tree or a pear tree, I don't know. Had it not been for this

23 tree, I would have been killed perhaps.

24 MR. ALARID:

25 Q. How much time do you think had elapsed between when that fire

Page 1255

1 first rose up to the grenade that injured your head?

2 A. You know, not more than five minutes. Five minutes. Maybe not

3 even five minutes.

4 Q. And, see, this is why sometimes reading things on paper don't

5 always give a good picture of things, because when I read the statement,

6 it seemed like it happened very quickly.

7 A. I know, I know. Okay. Okay, okay.

8 Q. And it felt like from reading it that once the insanity and chaos

9 started you -- the only reason you survived was you were able to get out

10 quickly. Otherwise, you would have shared the same fate as the people in

11 the room.

12 A. Yes, the same. That's true. And because I managed to -- to grab

13 the opportunity before the person who is -- who came under the window,

14 who started shooting at people. There were people who were wounded.

15 Q. Now, the person that came under the window and was shooting at

16 people and wounding people, you weren't able to recognise him in the

17 chaos, that person?

18 A. No. That's what I said in all my statements.

19 Q. And --

20 A. I was just trying to -- to run for my life.

21 Q. Absolutely. And another mother and son were able to escape

22 around the same time as you. Were they before you or after you?

23 A. Another mother -- except for this mother and the son, there was

24 another mother who was the first to break the window and jump out, and

25 later on I jumped and another child was with me. Actually, a friend of

Page 1256

1 mine. I don't remember whether I was the first or was he before me. His

2 mother was the fourth person to jump out, and she was wounded. You know

3 that. You had an opportunity to see that.

4 Q. Yes, sir, I did. And so was your mom the first one out the

5 window? Even though someone else broke the window, your mom was first?

6 A. Well, there was another window. Maybe somebody jumped out of it.

7 I didn't pay attention anyway. The window that I jumped out of and that

8 I encircled on the photograph, my mother was the first to jump out of it.

9 Q. And from where you were -- so it was pretty lucky that you were

10 able to be at the window right when this chaos started.

11 A. No. I was in the middle of the house. There was a big table in

12 the middle of the house. I was just a child, a 14-year-old boy. I

13 couldn't imagine what was going to happen to me. I couldn't imagine that

14 I was going to die in a fire. I don't think I have to tell you any more.

15 Q. And I really don't want to talk too much, because I know this is

16 extremely painful for you.

17 A. Yes. If necessary, I am at your service here.

18 Q. Now, from where you were in the table in the middle of the room,

19 how many people were between you and the door?

20 A. It was fully packed. The room was of such size. It wasn't a big

21 room. I don't know exactly how big it was, but people were cram-packed.

22 Q. And when the -- is it fair to say that you reacted to move

23 towards your mother and the window when the fire started or before that?

24 A. Yes, when it all started. Why not -- why would I go before that?

25 I was feeling fine.

Page 1257

1 Q. The only reason I thought you might have gone before that because

2 it was probably very scary in the dark after they had shut all your

3 family members in this room and maybe you would have wanted to be closer

4 to her and I didn't know because I couldn't tell from reading.

5 A. I was sitting on that table. My mother was already ready close

6 to the window. She was an adult and she knew what was in the offing. I

7 was just a child. Only when the fire started and the grenades did I

8 realise.

9 Q. And a sad fact is that -- well, there were probably people also

10 between your mother and the door as well because it was so packed.

11 A. Yes, yes. There were people between the table where I was and my

12 mother. Actually, the window. There were many people, but when the

13 detonations and the shooting and the fire started, everybody lay on the

14 ground. I just can't describe this situation to you.

15 Q. And I don't want to put you through much more and we'll move out

16 of this room as quick as we can.

17 Tragically, the people that were between the door and your mother

18 probably helped protect you and your mom and allowed you that brief

19 opportunity to escape. Isn't that fair?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And the only reason I said that was is because they were sort of

22 a shield between the fire that started by the door, and even some of the

23 shrapnel, probably, was blocked by other people.

24 A. Yes, it's possible.

25 Q. Would the -- did the people in the room make it difficult for you

Page 1258

1 to see out the door when the fire started? Were you able to see the door

2 open and close or anything like that?

3 MS. MARCUS: Objection. This is a misrepresentation of the

4 witness's statement. The witness's statement is that the door closed

5 behind him when he entered the house. The door was closed. That's in

6 the witness's evidence.

7 MR. ALARID:

8 Q. The only reason --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Reformulate, Mr. Alarid.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I wasn't looking at the door.

11 The door was closed, sir. Whether it was locked or not, you can find it

12 in the statements.

13 MR. ALARID:

14 Q. And that's exactly -- I mean, many people saw this from different

15 angles, and some people may have seen the door open, and I was wondering

16 if you saw that.

17 A. No, no, no.

18 Q. So the first thing that shocked you, of course, was the fire and

19 then the explosion.

20 A. The door was blasted out and the fire started immediately. I

21 don't know what they did, how they did that. And this was followed by

22 explosions and by shooting.

23 Q. Now, I want to back up a little bit in time to the procession

24 from the one house to the other house. Can we do that?

25 A. Yes, I can.

Page 1259

1 Q. Now, you indicate that there were a couple people obviously that

2 you named in your statement, three people in fact. You mentioned

3 Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and Mitar Vasiljevic?

4 A. Yes. I mentioned Mitar Vasiljevic in my testimony.

5 Q. And Mitar Vasiljevic, the first time you had ever laid eyes on

6 him was earlier in the day at the Red Cross? Okay.

7 A. Yes. No, not at the Red Cross. The first time I saw him was at

8 the Memic's house. Maybe somebody did see him there but I didn't. You

9 can also find that in my statement, when he came in front of the Memic

10 house.

11 Q. And he purported to give one of the members of your group a piece

12 of paper that ensured safety?

13 A. Yes, yes, yes.

14 Q. And -- and he was unarmed at this time?

15 A. No, I don't remember that.

16 Q. And was he non-threatening to the group? Did he appear back

17 earlier that he was a friend of the group or maybe less than a friend but

18 at least someone that wasn't a threat?

19 A. What group?

20 Q. Your group. Your group.

21 A. What group?

22 Q. Your group of people.

23 A. That was not a five-member group. That was 70 people. That was

24 my entire village.

25 Q. Yes, sir.

Page 1260

1 A. You'd better be clear, and you should say, "Your village,"

2 because this was the whole village. He didn't pose a threat to me.

3 Q. And that's what I was more trying to get at as opposed to the

4 number of people, and I apologise. I'm more important on what was your

5 impression of this man that came to visit. Is that okay?

6 A. Yes. I am at your disposal should you need some additional

7 explanation.

8 Q. And so this man who -- how did you come to know him as Mitar,

9 because you were just a boy.

10 A. He introduced himself. He said that he was -- name was

11 Mitar Vasiljevic, that he came from the Red Cross, and he came -- he gave

12 the paper to Mujo Halilovic. He purported to be a good man trying to

13 provide safety to us.

14 Q. Now, did you hear anything or know about him as a waiter in town

15 at the Panos -- for the Panos company?

16 A. Yes, a waiter at the Panos.

17 Q. And had you and your family ever been served by him?

18 A. No. I was a young boy. Many people knew him.

19 Q. And after he introduced himself did people in your family and

20 village talk about him as being a waiter, or did you come to that

21 knowledge after the incident?

22 A. I heard that from the people who were there, that he was a

23 waiter. A lot of people had known him there. Being a waiter in a small

24 town is a big deal. There were not many hotels in Visegrad, only one.

25 Q. Can you recall what he was wearing, Mitar Vasiljevic, when you

Page 1261

1 saw him?

2 A. You can find that in my statement. Whether he wore a dark suit

3 or a camouflage uniform, I don't remember.

4 Q. And the person that you named as Milan Lukic, can you recall what

5 he was wearing that -- that day?

6 A. I can remember. I remember.

7 Q. Please tell the Court.

8 A. A camouflage uniform.

9 Q. Was he wearing anything on his head, a hat?

10 A. I don't remember. No, he didn't.

11 Q. Do you --

12 A. Well, I'm not sure whether it's a yes or a no, so I'd rather say

13 I don't remember.

14 Q. That's a fair answer after the time that's passed. Do you recall

15 what weapons he may have had?

16 A. A sniper rifle.

17 Q. And the person that you named as Sredoje Lukic, what do you

18 believe he was wearing on that day?

19 A. Yes. Some sort of camouflage uniform. Basically, they were in

20 uniforms.

21 Q. Do you remember any insignias on any of these uniforms, anything

22 to mark them?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you remember if the person that you believe to be Sredoje,

25 what he -- if he was armed?

Page 1262

1 A. Yes, he was.

2 Q. How do you believe he was armed?

3 A. He had some kind of automatic weapon.

4 Q. Do you remember a hat?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now, you indicated on -- on direct examination that 20 to 25 per

7 cent of the people knew Sredoje and Milan.

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Can you -- were you able to -- to make sense or make the

10 difference between how they knew the different Lukics that you believe?

11 A. Let me make it clear for you. Ninety-five people from my village

12 knew about Milan, if that's helpful. They heard of him before we came to

13 this house.

14 Q. So --

15 A. First of all, we were afraid to sleep in our own homes. For a

16 month or two we slept in the forest, because we were afraid of that

17 group. So some people had heard of them without seeing them, and some

18 people knew them.

19 Q. Did -- kind of going back to the fear your village had been in

20 for quite some time, isn't it true that back at the beginning --

21 A. Yes, yes. We had lived for two months under their occupation.

22 Since April when Visegrad fell to the Uzice Corps until the day in June

23 when we were set on fire.

24 Q. Was there a time when your village was attacked before -- by your

25 neighbours before the exodus from your village?

Page 1263

1 A. They attacked the whole of Visegrad, not just my village. They

2 just passed through the village looking for weapons and we were left

3 living in the forests or in barns, sometimes in houses, but we were

4 living in fear.

5 Q. Do you know who organised the exodus from your village?

6 A. No, I don't remember. From the village -- from the direction of

7 Prelovo where their headquarters was there. The gentlemen sitting behind

8 you will know better than I do. So all the initiatives came from that.

9 All the negotiations were launched from that headquarters involving not

10 only my village but all the other villages as well.

11 Q. Had you known or heard of a Dragomir Gavrilovic at that time, a

12 neighbour of yours?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. What did you know of this Gavrilovic?

15 A. Hardly anything. He threatened my mother, but my mother will be

16 able to tell you more about that.

17 Q. And did you -- you indicated that in April of 1992 the Serbian

18 police came to your village.

19 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Did you know the identity of these police?

21 A. No. No. The Serbian police and army were all mixed together.

22 You couldn't distinguish them. People would come to villages for

23 negotiations in order to evacuate the village.

24 Q. And this was before the Uzice Corps came to town or to Visegrad?

25 A. No, no, no. That was a couple of days before we were burned in

Page 1264

1 the house, and also you can find in my statements that before the

2 Uzice Corps we had to flee.

3 Q. Well -- and the reason I'm confused is because I'm reading three

4 statements. I'm reading the testimony that you gave at trial, I'm

5 reading a statement that you were able to review with the Prosecutor that

6 was given in 2001, but I'm also reading a statement you gave when you

7 were 16 years old to the security forces in Sarajevo in 1995.

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Were you able to review the oldest statement as well as your

10 other statements before you testified today?

11 A. Yes. I had an opportunity to review everything, and if anything

12 needs clarification I am here, because I prefer to clarify things in this

13 way. There could be some minute details, but by the way you sound, it

14 seems that a lot is not correct.

15 MR. ALARID: Could the court usher please pull up what's been

16 uploaded as 1D10-0344, which is the English version of the 14 November

17 1995 statement, and 1D10-0347, which is the B/C/S version. And the first

18 page of both, please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 MR. ALARID:

21 Q. And do you see the first sentence right below "Statement"? It

22 says: "... April 1992, the Serbian police came one morning to the

23 village ..."

24 A. Yes. Yes, sir. That's how you should ask me. That's the first

25 time that when we left our village, when the Uzice Corps came. So that

Page 1265

1 was the first time, in April, that we had to flee. And then later we

2 came back. First we went to the village of Vrstanica, and then to the

3 stadium in Visegrad. When the corps occupied the town, we spent the

4 night in the Drina Hotel and then the following day we went back to our

5 village.

6 Q. Okay. And that's kind of what -- do you understand why I'm

7 confused about some of the dates?

8 A. Okay. Okay.

9 Q. I really don't want to molest you in any way or bother you. I

10 just want to get through this and you can go home.

11 A. I appreciate that.

12 Q. Now, do you know those Serbian policemen, I guess is the question

13 I want to ask, that first time you were forced to leave your home?

14 A. No. No, no.

15 Q. And in April of 1992, isn't it true that you hadn't heard of

16 Milan Lukic before the chaos began in April and the Uzice Corps were

17 required to come into Visegrad or came into Visegrad?

18 A. No, I hadn't.

19 Q. And when you went to the football stadium, in your first

20 statement, and it's down a little bit further, you cited that there was a

21 General Milovanovic. Is it fair that that could be corrected to

22 Jovanovic, if you remember?

23 A. Yes, yes. I don't remember exactly, so it's either Jovanovic or

24 Milovanovic.

25 Q. Okay. Now, this general, he came in a big spectacle in a

Page 1266

1 helicopter. Isn't that true?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. And there were soldiers all around the stadium and your people

4 were herded into this stadium to hear the address of this general. Isn't

5 that true?

6 A. Yes. People had been brought to the stadium, and they wanted to

7 see what to do with all this crowd, because the entire right-hand bank of

8 the Drina was there. Actually, people had come from the forest to the

9 stadium to hear what the corps will have to say to them.

10 Q. Do you remember --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid. Mr. Alarid, just to let you know,

12 you have another 15 minutes.

13 MR. ALARID: Fifteen?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

15 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour. I will wrap this up.

16 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that this general indicated that he had the

17 White Eagles in control and that you believe there was White Eagles in

18 this stadium?

19 A. Yes, yes, yes.

20 Q. What was your understanding of the White Eagles at that time even

21 though you were a boy?

22 A. Well, they had special belts. These were special troops guarding

23 him. They had white belts and -- and special weapons. That was only

24 part of the Uzice Corps called the White Eagles. They were part of the

25 Uzice Corps.

Page 1267

1 Q. Now, I'd like to go on this same and --

2 MR. ALARID: And at this time, Your Honour, just so I don't

3 forget, I'd like to tender 1D10-0344 into evidence, please, under seal.

4 MS. MARCUS: Objection.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Marcus.

6 MS. MARCUS: The witness talked about some possibilities that

7 there were some clarifications. In fact, Mr. Alarid himself referred to

8 some issues which he believes require clarification. There was no

9 foundation laid for the authenticity of this document, so I would -- I

10 would hope that that could be done before it was tendered into evidence.

11 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, obviously we received this from

12 the OTP, so I mean I'm assuming they know about it. We can go to

13 signature pages if that's what we need to do, but I also believe the

14 Prosecutor can address these matters on redirect.

15 MS. MARCUS: Just because a document comes from the OTP doesn't

16 mean it's been authenticated by the OTP.

17 MR. ALARID: Well, then I'd like additional cross-examination

18 time, because that really slows me down.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: He has a lot of confidence in you, Ms. Marcus.

20 Can you lay a foundation then for its admission?

21 MR. ALARID: Certainly.

22 Q. Mr. VG-84, you do remember giving this statement in 1995? Your

23 mother --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Your mother was present at this statement?

Page 1268

1 A. I don't remember that.

2 Q. Can you go down --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. We admit it. We admit the

4 statement. Let's move on.

5 THE REGISTRAR: The statement will become Exhibit number 1D32,

6 Your Honours, under seal.

7 MR. ALARID:

8 Q. Now, I'd like to move to page 2 of the English version, but it

9 may be on the first page of the Serbian version. Just a moment, please.

10 But do you recall in the statement, and maybe we don't have to go to the

11 exact location, do you recall mentioning that Dragomir Gavrilovic was one

12 of the same group, and you indicated that they were policemen that came

13 to the house that night of the tragedy?

14 A. I don't remember. I don't remember him being there.

15 Q. Do you see his name on the first page of your statement?

16 Actually, it's on page 2 of the statement, middle of the page, please.

17 And I'm looking to the middle of that large paragraph and I see

18 "Dragomir Gavrilovic," and I see him referred in a sentence after you

19 referred to four policemen coming to the home.

20 A. Maybe he was mentioned, because during the day while we were on

21 the way he passed by us.

22 Q. And who is Radomir Djuric?

23 A. From the village of Loznica. Whether he was in the police or the

24 military, I can't tell. He came once or twice to our village.

25 Q. Now, this is going to sound like a silly question, but do you

Page 1269

1 remember --

2 A. Go ahead.

3 Q. Do you remember at any time during this night that the man that

4 you believe to be Mitar Vasiljevic being on a white horse with a cast on

5 his leg?

6 A. At night or during the day?

7 Q. At any time on a white horse?

8 A. Only during the day, that he came outside the house, as I already

9 described, that he gave us a piece of paper, but there was no horse

10 there.

11 Q. And that's all I wanted to know to be honest. Do you remember

12 the day -- the day that you started walking -- or actually, the day you

13 were told you were going to have to evacuate your village, that was the

14 day before that you actually walked; is that correct?

15 A. No. No. We were told on the 13th, and we -- or it was on the

16 12th or the 13th that we were told to leave, and then on the 14th we

17 left, and on the evening of the 14th we were set on fire.

18 Q. Do you remember what day of the week the 14th was?

19 A. No. No.

20 Q. And the reason I ask you this is one of your clarifications that

21 you gave that came through the Prosecutor that involved changing the date

22 from the 13th to the 14th.

23 A. That may be the case. However, as far as I remember, in my last

24 statement from 2001 when I was here it was the 14th.

25 Q. Well, what happened between then and now that made you remember

Page 1270

1 the change of one day, a calendar date?

2 MS. MARCUS: Objection.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

4 MS. MARCUS: What the witness has just said is that when he was

5 here in 2001 he had already changed it to the 14th in his testimony. So

6 he's referring to his prior testimony where he correctly referred to the

7 14th. That's why the testimony got entered into evidence without any

8 clarification. So it's not between then and now that the time -- that

9 the date was corrected.

10 MR. ALARID: Well, then maybe I'll ask him that.

11 Q. What happened between giving your statement on here on the 20th

12 of January, 2001, and your testimony on -- in October of 2001? What

13 happened that would jog your memory to change a calendar day that you had

14 memorialised some time before?

15 A. Perhaps where the statement says the 13th it may have been the

16 result of a mistranslation. I don't know what could have happened. I

17 will remember that date, the 14th of June, for the rest of my life, just

18 as I remember my birth date.

19 MR. ALARID: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Cepic.

21 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I do have a lot of

22 questions, and maybe I will request additional time for this witness.

23 I'll try to do my best in a short period of time, of course.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead.

25 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1271

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. I have to address you by that number, not because I wish to but

5 because that's the rules.

6 A. No problem.

7 Q. Let me first introduce myself. My name is Djuro Cepic, and I

8 represent this gentleman, Sredoje Lukic, seated behind me. I'll kindly

9 ask you to help me clarify certain matters.

10 A. I'm here for that reason.

11 Q. Before I start putting any questions to you, let me tell you that

12 I truly understand the pain and the suffering you and your mother

13 experienced, and please accept the condolences both on my part and on the

14 part of the members of my team for the loss of your family members.

15 A. Thank you.

16 Q. Please listen to my questions carefully. Think them over before

17 you give me an answer, and please give me clear and concise, brief

18 answers so that we can complete this as soon as possible.

19 A. Fine.

20 Q. Sir, I put to you that my client, Mr. Sredoje Lukic, was not in

21 Visegrad on that day.

22 A. Yes, yes. Please go ahead.

23 Q. I put to you that he was not in Visegrad and that he did not take

24 part in that incident. Do you understand?

25 A. No. No, I don't understand. Nobody can. Nobody who was not

Page 1272

1 there can understand.

2 Q. I put it to you that this was the case of a mistaken identity,

3 and we will get to that later.

4 A. That's your business. You should try and see that through.

5 Q. Tell me, did you follow the start of this trial in the media,

6 over the radio, the TV, or the press?

7 A. No, no. I've had quite enough of this.

8 Q. I have to ask you this: Why did you refuse me the interview?

9 A. What's the need for it? You have the statements. Everything is

10 clear. If something is not clear to you, I'm here. I can explain it to

11 you all.

12 Q. In 1992 you were 13, just under 14, therefore, and you attended

13 the Prelovo primary school; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In the course of your earlier testimony and from what I was able

16 to read in your statements, you believed that those were Milan and

17 Sredoje Lukic according to the stories of others because you hadn't known

18 them earlier.

19 A. Yes, that's true. I said that I didn't know them before and that

20 I had heard this.

21 Q. Am I right if I say that in view of your age at the time most of

22 the information you received came from your mother, VG-18?

23 A. You are not right.

24 Q. Very well. Thank you. Did you spend the entire time with your

25 mother throughout the incident?

Page 1273

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were VG-18 -- or, rather, VG-13 and VG-38 with you at the time?

3 A. I can't tell you. I don't have the necessary information.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus? Did you have a point, Ms. Marcus?

5 MS. MARCUS: I just wanted to say that the witness doesn't have

6 the pseudonyms in front of him. He only knows the pseudonym of his

7 mother.

8 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Give me a moment, please.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. They were with you at the time of -- when your valuables were

12 taken away and at the moment of --

13 A. Yes, all the time.

14 Q. Thank you. I would like to refer to Jasmina Vila, the late

15 Jasmina Vila, your relative.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you agree with me that your mother had more precise and

18 reliable information, your mother VG-18, as to what had become of

19 Jasmina Vila or what had happened to Jasmina Vila before this incident?

20 A. Yes, I do agree. My mother was an adult.

21 Q. I respect my mother above anybody else as well. Now we're coming

22 to one area that is crucial to me. Do you want to have your statement

23 before you, or should I just put questions to you like this?

24 A. Yes, please, if we could have it.

25 MR. CEPIC: P74. 74. Page 4. In English and also in B/C/S.

Page 1274

1 Q. [Interpretation] Paragraph 3 in the Bosnian version, and

2 paragraph 2 in English. "One of them entered the kitchen and introduced

3 himself as Sredoje Lukic."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you describe it for me? How was it that he introduced

6 himself?

7 A. Can I just be allowed to read this through? The question was how

8 he introduced himself.

9 Q. Yes. Did he come before you and say I'm Sredoje Lukic?

10 A. It wasn't just him who entered the house. Three of them did.

11 The people there knew them right away. I was at the far end of the

12 living-room and there were many people there.

13 Q. Can you give me the words with which he introduced himself? Did

14 he say, "People, my name is Sredoje Lukic"?

15 A. Well, a few people knew right away that it was Sredoje Lukic.

16 Q. You said clearly here he came and introduced himself. So you

17 said that he introduced himself. Did he use the following words: "My

18 name is Sredoje Lukic. Good day to you people"?

19 A. Yes. He said that as he got into the room, and I heard other

20 people say so later on, because this was a room full of people, and they

21 heard him say that, and that's how this whole thing started.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Witness. Are you saying that

23 Sredoje Lukic introduced himself by saying, "My name is Sredoje Lukic.

24 Good day to you people"?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I didn't quote his

Page 1275

1 words this way. This was upstairs. There were stairs there, and there

2 were people there who knew him by name.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't -- that he said expressly

5 those words --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did Sredoje Lukic say anything in your hearing

7 to identify himself?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you at some time come to the understanding

10 that that person was Sredoje Lukic?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: And how did you arrive at that knowledge?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were people in the house, the

14 older ones, who knew him, and when they left they said, "That's the

15 policeman who works at -- in Visegrad." There were people there,

16 including elderly women, who knew him.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: They said, "That's the policeman." Did they go

18 further to identify the name of the police?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sredoje Lukic.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.

21 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, your statement today is somewhat different

23 from what you said in your written statement. You were quite explicit

24 here and said, "One of them got into the kitchen and introduced himself

25 as Sredoje Lukic. He carried a sniper rifle and a camouflage uniform."

Page 1276

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. These are your words.

3 A. Sir, these are details that cannot be described, because the --

4 they were not entering that house --

5 MR. CEPIC: Could you scroll down in the English version, please.

6 A little bit more.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Is there a signature somewhere at the bottom

8 here, your signature?

9 A. Yes, there is.

10 Q. Thank you. Sir, when testifying before this honourable Tribunal,

11 your mother, VG-18, claimed that somebody entered the house and

12 introduced himself as Sredoje Lukic.

13 A. Well, why don't you put that question to her? She knows about

14 this better than I do.

15 Q. Does it sound a bit illogical to you to say -- for a person to

16 come into the house and say, "I introduce myself, my name is

17 Sredoje Lukic, and I will be doing this and that to you"?

18 A. Yes, of course it's illogical, but they were proud of that. They

19 prided themselves on it.

20 Q. Please help me identify the individual who introduced himself as

21 Sredoje Lukic.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Why not?

24 A. Well, how would I be able to help you? Can you explain it to me?

25 Q. Sir, I'm putting questions to you, and you're answering them.

Page 1277

1 A. Please go ahead. Fire away.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, it wasn't very clear to me what you

3 meant when you asked the witness to help you identify the individual who

4 introduced himself as Sredoje Lukic. What exactly did you mean by that?

5 MR. CEPIC: My questions and answers. My questions and answers

6 from witness.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I see.

8 MR. CEPIC: Only way. Only possible way, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead.

10 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Was there daylight in the house at that moment,

12 sir?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Were you able to see clearly the face of the person who

15 introduced himself as Sredoje Lukic?

16 A. I don't remember that either.

17 Q. How far away from -- were you at that point from your mother?

18 A. I was right by her side.

19 Q. How far away from you was the person who introduced himself as

20 Sredoje Lukic?

21 A. Two metres.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, we're going to take the break now.

23 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 10.44 a.m.

Page 1278

1 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, in the meantime we printed pseudonym

2 sheet, so with your leave, I'd like to -- to use it.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

4 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. May I continue?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

6 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can we continue?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. We left off when this robbing took place in the afternoon. You

10 said that you are unable to make an identification. You told us that all

11 the time VG-13 and VG-18 were with you.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. VG-13 and VG-38. And, naturally, VG-18, your mother. How far

14 was your mother from you at the -- at that time?

15 A. She was sitting next to me.

16 Q. VG-13 and VG-18, how far were they at the time?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Were they close to you?

19 A. I don't know. There were many rooms. There was one room,

20 another room, there was a kitchen, and they were all full.

21 Q. Hasib Kurspahic, father of Huso Kurspahic.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where was he standing?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Can we then conclude that you have very poor memory of these

Page 1279

1 things?

2 A. Yes. I can barely remember who was standing where. It was full

3 of people.

4 Q. Sir, did VG-13 perhaps confirm the identity of these men who

5 entered the house to you?

6 A. Twenty per cent of people confirmed that.

7 Q. I'm asking you about VG-13.

8 A. I don't know about VG-13. I wasn't with her. She was maybe in

9 some corner. There were 50 or 60 people altogether there.

10 Q. But among those people were both VG-13 and VG-38, yes or no?

11 A. How can I know that? I don't remember.

12 Q. You told me today that they were involved in the incident the

13 whole time and that they were close to you.

14 A. I didn't tell you that today. They were in the file with us.

15 They were in front of the Red Cross. They were in the house with us.

16 Maybe she left the room for five minutes to go to the toilet. Maybe she

17 went out for two minutes. She wasn't with me all the time so that I

18 could follow her movement. There were many people.

19 Q. Did you talk to her?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Am I right to say that you cannot provide us with any better

22 information about the appearance of Sredoje Lukic?

23 A. I said that Sredoje Lukic and Milan Lukic were there and a third

24 man whose identity I don't know.

25 Q. But you cannot give me any information about how they looked

Page 1280

1 like?

2 A. Twenty per cent of the people --

3 Q. Sir, please listen carefully to my questions.

4 A. Twenty per cent of people knew them.

5 Q. Sir --

6 A. I'm giving you this information.

7 Q. I'm asking about your knowledge. I'm not asking you about what

8 other people knew.

9 A. But, sir, I listened to people who were older than me, and they

10 knew these men very well. I was a 14-year-old boy. I listened to what

11 my elders were telling me, and there were some elderly people who knew

12 him very well.

13 Q. Was Hasib Kurspahic one of them?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Can you tell me who searched the people and took their money and

16 their jewellery?

17 A. Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic were in charge of collecting money

18 and gold. The third man was searching people in another room, this third

19 man whom I don't know.

20 Q. Can you please explain how come that you changed this information

21 about the identity in your -- today's testimony?

22 A. What do you mean? What kind of change?

23 Q. Well, please look at the statement. In this paragraph here you

24 described Sredoje Lukic. You said that he had a sniper rifle on him.

25 A. Yes.

Page 1281

1 Q. Today, transcript page 23, line 13, you said that it was Milan

2 who had a sniper rifle.

3 A. Sir, these are all automatic weapons as far as I am familiar with

4 that.

5 Q. You would agree with me that there is a significant difference

6 between an automatic rifle and a sniper rifle, would you?

7 A. But this is automatic weapons, sir.

8 Q. I kindly ask you to listen to my questions carefully.

9 A. Very well.

10 Q. Visually there's a big difference, isn't there?

11 MS. MARCUS: Objection.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. What is the objection?

13 MS. MARCUS: Counsel hasn't established that the witness would

14 have any basis of knowledge of these weapons, certainly at the time he

15 was 14.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.

17 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we look carefully at

18 his statement, he said very explicitly that Sredoje Lukic had a sniper

19 rifle, so he is able to distinguish between the weapons.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed. Proceed.

21 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Did they have any hats?

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. Can you at least remember who was taller and who was shorter?

25 A. Sredoje was older and Milan was about seven years younger as far

Page 1282

1 as I could judge by their appearance.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. He asked about their height. Can you

3 remember who was taller and who was shorter? He didn't ask about their

4 age.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I don't remember. I

6 don't remember.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Let's move on.

8 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. [Interpretation] VG-38 asserted that Sredoje was shorter than

10 Milan by five centimetres.

11 A. Where? In which statement is that?

12 Q. Transcript dated 2nd September 2008, lines 26, 27 --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the pages

14 slowly.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Marcus.

16 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, the witness has already given an answer

17 to this question, so if -- if counsel's proposing to repeat the same

18 question again about the height, the witness has already testified that

19 he doesn't remember.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree. He can't help you any more. Please

21 move on, Mr. Cepic.

22 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, your mother VG-18, described Sredoje Lukic

24 as someone who was retired at the time and that he was over 40 years of

25 age. As for Milan Lukic, she said that he was a younger person.

Page 1283

1 A. You have to ask her.

2 Q. You -- do you agree with that?

3 A. I think you have to ask her. Why -- why should I give you

4 answers on her behalf?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, no. He's not asking you to answer on

6 behalf of your mother. What he's asking is whether you agree with your

7 mother's description that Sredoje was someone who had retired at that

8 time and that he was over 40 years of age.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I -- I can't remember that. I'm

11 not giving any descriptions. I'll let her do that.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move on.

13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, did any of these men have any mask or a

15 stocking over their face?

16 A. No, they didn't. Maybe there were some other persons outside of

17 the house. Maybe other witnesses can confirm that. As far as those

18 inside the house were concerned, I wasn't able to notice anything of the

19 sort.

20 Q. Do you perhaps remember while you were moving from the Memic

21 house to the Omeragic house who was the one who called the people to

22 leave the house?

23 A. I don't remember. Maybe it can be found in the statements but at

24 this moment I cannot remember.

25 Q. In this file while you were walking in the darkness from the

Page 1284

1 Memic house to the Omeragic house, the visibility was very poor, wasn't

2 it?

3 A. Yes, but one could see things.

4 Q. This person who introduced himself as Sredoje, do you know where

5 he was standing?

6 A. In front of the house where we were set on fire.

7 Q. Can you describe him in this particular situation?

8 A. No, I cannot. I was a little bit late. I was among the last

9 people who entered the house. He patted me on the shoulder. Whether it

10 was him or Milan, there were two or three of them in front of the house.

11 Because I couldn't find my shoes, and he patted me on the shoulder.

12 Q. Within this particular situation would you be able to give us any

13 description, any details?

14 A. No, no, no. I enter the house very quickly. They were just

15 standing in front of the house. Would that be helpful? The house where

16 we were burned. And there were a couple of more soldiers in the dark.

17 Q. I'm not denying that the incident took place and your suffering.

18 A. Well, if this is of any help.

19 Q. I'm just asking you to help us with your answers to shed more

20 light on who was there and who really committed this.

21 The one that you believe was Sredoje Lukic who was standing in

22 front of the house and who patted you on the shoulder, did he wait for

23 the whole file to pass? So he was ahead of the column?

24 A. He was in front of the house, and the column was moving towards

25 him, towards the house.

Page 1285

1 Q. So he was waiting for the column in front of house?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. He didn't follow behind the column?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Sir, would you believe the words of VG-13?

6 A. What words?

7 MS. MARCUS: Objection. Your Honours, counsel continuously puts

8 the words of other witnesses to this witness. Now, I submit that it's an

9 inappropriate thing to ask this witness to judge the credibility of the

10 other witnesses. Rather, the assertions that they made should be put to

11 the witness. Their assertions, the factual assertions that were made can

12 be put to the witness but not the credibility of other witnesses.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: We won't allow the question. Put another

15 question.

16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Q. Sir, are you able to give us any detail as to the description in

18 this situation when it was dark?

19 A. What -- what darkness? There was light in front of the house.

20 They had flashlights. Everything had been prepared in advance.

21 Q. Thank you. I'm just kindly asking you, and I'm asking you to

22 give me answers to the best of your recollection.

23 A. That's better.

24 Q. So according to what you said today, you're unable to give me any

25 better information about the person who introduced himself as

Page 1286

1 Sredoje Lukic or for whom other people said that he was Sredoje Lukic.

2 MS. MARCUS: Objection.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said what I said.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I will uphold it. Ask another question.

5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Q. Do you remember the name of any of these people who told us that

7 it was Sredoje Lukic, or you're unable to tell us that?

8 A. I'm telling you again those were the people who knew him. I

9 personally didn't know him. That's what I said in my statements.

10 Q. But you don't remember any specific person telling you that?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me see whether I understand you, Witness.

13 You heard a number of persons saying that that was Sredoje Lukic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: You knew who those persons were?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I knew.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: But your position now is that you don't remember

18 their names. Is that so?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember their names,

20 that's true. We were afraid of these people while we were still in our

21 village before we moved out. We were afraid that they would come to our

22 village, too, because they went to other villages, took men away, set

23 houses on fire.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.

25 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1287

1 Q. [Interpretation] Who told you that Sredoje Lukic was working in

2 Belgrade?

3 A. I may have heard it from someone in the house.

4 Q. When you mentioned that you had heard that this group was causing

5 incidents, did you hear about Sredoje back in April?

6 A. No, no, not at that time. Not in April.

7 Q. You testified today and you mentioned April.

8 A. I said I didn't know him in April. That was the time when the

9 Serbian army entered Visegrad.

10 Q. So the first information you had was on that night in

11 Pionirska Street.

12 A. On that day.

13 MR. CEPIC: It is missing that I said -- page 49, line 4 and 5,

14 my question I put the name of my client, Sredoje Lukic. Information

15 about Sredoje Lukic.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, just repeat the question.

17 MR. CEPIC: Yes, of course. Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. [Interpretation] So this information about Sredoje Lukic that we

19 are discussing today you heard for the first time on that day in

20 Pionirska Street, in the village of Koritnik?

21 A. No. We heard about them. We didn't see them until we left the

22 village. The whole group, Sredoje, Milan, and another four or five men

23 who are now walking freely around the town. There were not only these

24 two.

25 Q. Sir, if you said that 20 per cent of the people knew that Sredoje

Page 1288

1 had worked in Belgrade or that you heard that he had been working in

2 Belgrade, how could then 20 per cent of people know Sredoje Lukic?

3 A. No. I didn't say that it was 20 per cent of the people who knew

4 that he had worked there. Twenty per cent of the people knew him, and

5 perhaps two of those people knew that piece of information, but the

6 people in general knew that he was a policeman.

7 Q. Sir, can you help us in any way in the identification, yes or no?

8 A. What else do I need to tell you?

9 MS. MARCUS: Objection. Perhaps counsel could specify exactly

10 what question he's asking.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Cepic, that's a very general and wide

12 and vague question. Be more specific.

13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I've been trying with a lot

14 of questions in that way, but all answers are negative up till now.

15 Thank you, Your Honour. No further questions for this witness.

16 [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. I have no more questions for

17 you.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination?

19 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honours.

20 Re-examination by Ms. Marcus:

21 Q. VG-84, at the time you say Sredoje Lukic and Milan Lukic entered

22 the Mimic house, what time of day was it?

23 A. It was around 1.00 or 2.00. It was definitely daytime.

24 Q. Later as you were made to walk from the Mimic house to the

25 Omeragic house, can you describe the visibility?

Page 1289

1 A. It was good. It was good. It wasn't very good, but it was

2 there.

3 Q. Can you give some detail about why the visibility was good?

4 Where did the light come from?

5 A. There was a light bulb outside the house, and they all had

6 flashlight torches. Before they ordered us to move from the Memic to the

7 Omeragic house, they had -- they took their positions outside the house.

8 I don't know who ordered it, but they wanted to create as little noise as

9 possible. There was a creek there.

10 Q. You said there was a light in front of the house. Can you say

11 which house or which houses had lights in front of them?

12 A. I said that about the Omeragic house. I don't remember anything

13 about that in relation to the Memic house.

14 Q. Do you recall any lights on any other houses other than the Memic

15 and the Omeragic house?

16 A. Yes, there was some light, because there were other houses

17 further away, and the light was coming from those other houses.

18 Q. At the time you were in the Mimic house, when Mitar Vasiljevic

19 addressed you and the other detainees, did he suggest to you and the

20 others in your group that you would be safe in the Mimic house?

21 MR. CEPIC: Leading question, Your Honour.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. It is leading. You can't lead

24 in re-examination. Reformulate. Ask him what he said.

25 MS. MARCUS:

Page 1290

1 Q. VG-84, do you recall what Mitar Vasiljevic said to you when you

2 and the other detainees were in the Mimic house?

3 A. I do. I do. He told us that we were safe there, that nobody was

4 allowed to touch us, and that we would be spending the night there and

5 that on the following day at 12.00 we would be heading for Orlovo and

6 Kladanj. We would be leaving from the Red Cross building.

7 Q. And did that information make you and the others feel safer in

8 that house?

9 A. Yes, definitely.

10 Q. And was that one of the reasons that you and the others remained

11 in that house?

12 A. Well, we had to remain in the house. We had no where else to go,

13 yes.

14 Q. Would the presence of a police officer, who the group would have

15 known, contributed to your belief that you would be safe in that house?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

17 MR. CEPIC: Speculation, Your Honours, speculation. And what is

18 the base for this kind of question?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think the witness must be able to say whether

20 the police officer being there would make him feel safer.

21 Would a police officer being there, Witness, make you feel any

22 safer?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The presence of who? Which

24 policeman?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus.

Page 1291

1 MS. MARCUS:

2 Q. You testified earlier that to the knowledge of the people around

3 you, they informed you that this was Sredoje Lukic, and you learned from

4 them that he had been a police officer. So my question is: Would the

5 presence -- would the present of a police officer under those

6 circumstances have made you and the others feel safer?

7 A. Well, they didn't get come there to protect us. They came there

8 to take our valuables.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

10 MR. CEPIC: Misleading question, Your Honour. Completely

11 misleading.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic says it's leading. Ms. Marcus, do you

13 have anything further?

14 MS. MARCUS: No, sir, no further questions.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank

16 you for giving it. You may now leave.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.

19 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber would like to find out how long you

21 expect to be with the witness Vasiljevic. You have already given us an

22 estimate. Will you be more than one day, a session lasting a day?

23 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. In fact, I think I will be

24 substantially less with Mr. Vasiljevic.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Less.

Page 1292

1 MR. GROOME: So it's clear, Your Honour, what my intention is to

2 do with Mr. Vasiljevic is not ask to him any follow-up questions but

3 simply to lay the foundation for admission of his prior testimony and

4 highlight some of the relevant portions. He testified for a very, very

5 long time about many issues and simply to highlight for the Chamber the

6 issues that are directly relevant for the Chamber here.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, any estimate of the time that you'll

8 spend in cross-examination?

9 MR. ALARID: That's sort of something that's still in

10 development, Your Honour. Just -- and it's because of this: Obviously

11 the Drina River is going to hinge a lot -- to a huge degree on

12 Mr. Vasiljevic. In the trial he testified and what we have are two

13 binders with about that much prior testimony of which we kind of have to

14 look at and digest. I'd like to think that I could really shorten it

15 because the points I'm trying to make will be relatively focused, but if

16 there's a lot of testimony, that's the kind of thing, especially

17 depending on the cooperative nature of the witness sometimes it goes

18 easy, sometimes it goes harder. But -- so I'm having a real hard time

19 estimating simply because the transcript of Vasiljevic is a long one.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

21 MR. CEPIC: My estimation is, Your Honour, at this moment less

22 than one hour.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: One hour. I see.

24 MR. CEPIC: But I have to keep reserve at this moment.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Thank you. No. The reason for asking is

Page 1294

1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-18

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may begin, Ms. Sartorio.

5 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour. This witness has been

6 granted protective measures --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Sartorio.

8 MS. SARTORIO: This witness has been granted protective measures

9 as to facial distortion. And I would like to ask the witness if you

10 could move closer to the microphone, please.

11 And as I stated, Your Honour, this witness is testifying pursuant

12 to Rule 92 ter as per the oral decision of this Court on the 1st of

13 September, 2008, permitting the Prosecution to introduce into evidence

14 her prior transcript and statements.

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 MS. SARTORIO:

Page 1295

1 Q. Witness, you don't have to read out the date. I'm just asking if

2 the date of your birth and the name that is on the sheet, if that is your

3 name and your date of birth. That's just yes or no.

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. SARTORIO: We ask that this pseudonym sheet be admitted in

7 evidence, Your Honour. Sorry, may the witness sign this paper, then we

8 will ask it be admitted in evidence.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will admit it.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P81, under seal, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic?

12 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, with your leave just to request

13 admission of pseudonym sheet which we used with Witness VG-84.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. If that hasn't been admitted then we will

15 admit it.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D10, under seal, Your Honours.

17 MS. SARTORIO: Now, Your Honours, I would ask the court officer's

18 assistance again in handing a pseudonym sheet for other witnesses that

19 this witness may be referring to.

20 Q. And, Madam Witness, what is going to be handed to you at this

21 time is a sheet of paper that has the name of some persons and their

22 pseudonym numbers, and I'm going to ask that if you want to refer to any

23 of these persons in your testimony that you refer to them only by the

24 number that has been assigned to them, and please refrain from mentioning

25 their names on the record as these witness also have protective measures.

Page 1296

1 A. 84?

2 Q. Do you understand what I've asked you to do, Witness, with regard

3 to if you mention these witnesses?

4 A. I understand. It's just I'm not sure if I'll be able to read

5 this.

6 Q. Okay. Well, we'll just proceed and see how it goes.

7 Witness 18, how old are you?

8 A. Sixty-seven.

9 Q. And what is your highest level of education?

10 A. I completed four years of primary school in Jagodina.

11 Q. And in 1992, can you tell us in which municipality you were

12 living?

13 A. Visegrad.

14 Q. Now I'm going to ask you some questions, madam, about prior

15 testimony and a prior statement that you gave to an ICTY investigator.

16 We're going to go over a couple of changes that you wish to make to the

17 testimony in the statement, so I'll be asking you question by question.

18 Did you testify in the Vasiljevic trial on the 8th of October,

19 2001?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And since coming to The Hague this week, have you had an

22 opportunity to review this testimony in the Bosnian language?

23 A. Yes. And I always have it in my mind.

24 Q. Now, we discussed a couple of changes, and if -- with the Court's

25 indulgence I would like to refer to the page of the transcript and lead

Page 1297

1 the witness to some extent so that changes can be made. Thank you.

2 Now, in your transcript at e-court page 28, you say that you

3 were -- first you were in the house of Jusuf Memic. That's what it says

4 in your testimony. Do you wish to make a change to that?

5 A. Well, I don't know. It seems to me that we were in Mujo's house.

6 Therefore, his son's house, but I'm not sure. I believe that we were in

7 Mujo's house judging by some of the photographs of the children I was

8 able to see there, but I'm not certain.

9 Q. Can you tell us the last name of Mujo, please?

10 A. Memic.

11 Q. And do you know where Mujo Memic's house was in relation to

12 Jusuf Memic's house?

13 A. I do. I do, because that's where my teacher resided. She also

14 taught my children in Prelovo. I would go to her house to discuss with

15 her the absences from school of my children. That's how I know.

16 Q. Okay. Now, in your testimony at page 30 in e-court, you state

17 that --

18 MR. CEPIC: Excuse me.

19 MS. SARTORIO: Yes.

20 MR. CEPIC: I apologise, but it would be useful for us if we have

21 that page on our screens just to compare with our notes, please.

22 MS. SARTORIO: That's fine, Your Honour. I was trying to save

23 time, but if the court could please bring up -- excuse me. It's 65 ter

24 number 92. And it's e-court page 30.

25 May I just -- may I see the previous page, Your Honours, please,

Page 1298

1 and to scroll down? I'd like to see the page -- the actual page of the

2 transcript, if I may. No. This is the page, sorry. Thank you.

3 Q. At line 22 it begins, and if I may read it to the witness, your

4 testimony said: "Sredoje Lukic came with the people. He introduced

5 himself. I wouldn't have recognised him, but he introduced himself and

6 said he was Sredoje Lukic ..."

7 Now, could we move down a bit to the next page.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.

9 MR. CEPIC: Could we have the number of page in Vasiljevic case?

10 MS. SARTORIO: That was 15 --

11 MR. CEPIC: -- 82. Thank you.

12 MS. SARTORIO: Now, could we go back to the bottom of 1582,

13 please, again. The bottom of this page and the top of the next page.

14 One moment, Your Honour.

15 We'll go back to 1582, Your Honours. We'll go back to 1582,

16 Your Honours.

17 Q. Where you say that Sredoje introduced himself to you, do you wish

18 to add anything to that statement?

19 A. Well, no. I mean, what else could I add? I didn't know why he

20 came there.

21 Q. How did you -- okay. Strike that. Other than the -- other than

22 the change that we just made with regard to the name of the Memic house,

23 is everything else in your testimony true?

24 A. Well, I don't know. If we do ever come across something we can

25 correct it, but I believe that it is true.

Page 1299

1 Q. And you did listen to your testimony in full, did you not?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. And as you listened to the testimony, everything rang true to you

4 when you listened to it; is that correct?

5 A. Well, no. I was mentioning Sredoje more than Milan, whereas

6 Milan was the first one in everything. Sredoje was a bit older than him.

7 Q. Okay. But, Witness --

8 MS. SARTORIO: There's an objection, I guess?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

10 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, just wrong interpretation in transcript.

11 Page 60, line 25, witness said, "Sredoje je bio starija osoba."

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Which being translated is what?

13 MR. CEPIC: Older than Milan, and it is -- but it is completely

14 different sense. That is my humble opinion, that she said clearly

15 Sredoje Lukic was older person or --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Isn't that what is in the transcript, that

17 Sredoje was a bit -- down here.

18 MS. SARTORIO: May I proceed, Your Honours? No. Sorry.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just ask the witness again.

21 MS. SARTORIO:

22 Q. As you listened to your testimony, even though you may wish to

23 add some things to your testimony, is everything in that testimony

24 accurate?

25 A. Everything I said is true, but perhaps those who took statements,

Page 1300

1 when they printed them maybe they made some mistake, but I'm ready to

2 correct any statement I made if necessary. I am not here to tell lies,

3 and I am going to tell only the truth. And if I was nervous and made a

4 mistake, I'm not nervous here. I'm going to tell you the truth because

5 I'm talking about my people. They are also part of my people. I didn't

6 know them, and we had two religions in Eastern --

7 Q. Yes. Yes, Madam Witness, we'll get to that in a minute, but I'm

8 just asking you if there are any changes that you wish to make, any

9 changes meaning anything that is not correct in your prior testimony that

10 you listened to the other day.

11 A. I heard more about Sredoje than Milan. It should be the other

12 way around. Sredoje and these dates relating to this incident were not

13 congruent. I only remember it was the fourth day of the Bajram, and that

14 is correct. And as for other things, I'm not quite sure that they ...

15 Q. Other than those changes, if you were asked the same questions

16 today that were put to you in your former trial, would your answers be

17 substantively the same?

18 A. Whatever I know and whatever is true, that's what I'm going to

19 tell you. What I don't know I will not tell. I don't remember what I

20 said at the time. Whatever you asked me and if that is the truth, I will

21 repeat it here.

22 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, we ask that the prior testimony be

23 admitted in evidence.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P82, under seal, Your Honours.

Page 1301

1 MS. SARTORIO: Now we ask the court usher to bring up 65 ter

2 number 180.

3 Q. Now, Madam Witness, you remember giving a statement to a Tribunal

4 investigator on the 4th of February, 1998?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And again, you had a chance to review this statement, didn't you,

7 in your language when you came to The Hague?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And again, in your statement, which is on page 6 in both

10 versions, the Bosnian and English, you again mention the house of

11 Jusuf Memic. And we're going to correct that, is that correct, to say

12 Mujo Memic?

13 A. I don't know what the Court wants me. These are father and son

14 and that was the same household, but it's up to you to decide.

15 Q. I'm just asking if -- again, we have to make the change to your

16 statement and put it on the record, and you just told us --

17 A. I know that this was the house of Mujo Memic.

18 Q. Thank you. Is everything contained in your statement true and

19 accurate to the best of your knowledge?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And if you were asked the questions today that the investigator

22 asked you, would your answers be substantively the same?

23 A. Yes, they would.

24 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, we ask that statement be admitted in

25 evidence.

Page 1302

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P83, under seal, Your Honours.

3 MS. SARTORIO:

4 Q. Now, Witness, your prior testimony and your statement have both

5 been admitted in evidence so that the Judges can read everything that you

6 have to say about the ordeal that you experienced so I'm not going to ask

7 you to repeat everything, but I'm going to ask you some questions.

8 Now, in your testimony and in your statement you have mentioned

9 two dates, the 14th of July and the 14th of June. Now, as you sit here

10 today, do you remember if this event happened in June or July?

11 A. I cannot tell you precisely. I know exactly, and I will remember

12 that until the day I die that it was the fourth day of our great holiday

13 Bajram and that it was a Sunday. As for the date, whether it was the

14 13th of this month or that month or the 14th, I really cannot tell you.

15 Please don't bother me with that. I know that it was the fourth day of

16 the Bajram.

17 Q. Now I would like to draw your attention to that date that is in

18 your mind and to the time of approximately 5.00 in the evening. Can you

19 tell us where you were?

20 A. We were in the house of Mujo Memic.

21 Q. When you say "we," who is "we"?

22 A. All my people. All my fellow villagers. Maybe with the

23 exception of two households, Avdo Kurspahic and Hasan Kurspahic who

24 had -- who had gone to visit their children in town, and the rest of my

25 people who had been living in this village up to that point, we were all

Page 1303

1 there.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 Q. And had you met any of these men before this evening?

19 A. No, no. I didn't. I didn't know them. I heard that he was on

20 the police force, I mean Sredoje. I didn't have any contact with the

21 police before. Whether he came to the village, I also don't know that.

22 Milan I had never seen before. And as for this neighbour allegedly from

23 Greben, I didn't know him and didn't see him before, that is to say until

24 the time when he ordered us to take our clothes off.

25 Q. Now, when they introduced themselves did you hear their voices

Page 1304

1 clearly?

2 A. We heard them. There were men at the door of another room, and

3 we heard those surnames mentioned, but we didn't see them until they came

4 and told us to go to one room. When we entered the room I wasn't looking

5 at Sredoje or Milan. I just remember that these two surnames were

6 mentioned. But we were afraid to look at them, let alone to ask them who

7 they were.

8 Q. Now, when you -- you refer to surnames. What do you consider to

9 be the surname? Is it the first or the second name?

10 A. Theirs you mean?

11 Q. No, you mentioned in the transcript "surname." What is a

12 surname?

13 A. For example, Milan is the first name, Lukic is the second name.

14 Every person has two names, the first name and the last name.

15 Q. So when you -- you say you remember two surnames were mentioned.

16 Is that what you mean, two surnames were mentioned or two first names

17 were mentioned?

18 A. Two first names and two last names. I said two names and two

19 surnames, and I didn't know anything about the third man. That's why I'm

20 not saying anything about him. I didn't hear anything.

21 Q. So you heard their names being mentioned by other people in the

22 room. Is that what your testimony is?

23 A. No, no, no, no. I heard -- it was quiet when they appeared at

24 the door. It was quiet, and I heard personally about these two. And

25 for -- as for the third man, one person asked who this man is, and then

Page 1305

1 he said that he knew his father. I'm talking about the third man. And

2 for these two I heard it 100 per cent.

3 Q. Now, during the course of the evening, did you hear their names

4 being mentioned by anyone else in the room? Did you discuss these

5 people?

6 A. Well, there was no point in discussing anything. We just talked

7 about this thing. I was lying there. I didn't go out. I just heard my

8 neighbour saying about the man from Greben, and he said, "How come he is

9 here?" Because this village is two kilometres away. "How come he is

10 here?" That's what we discussed, and he said that he should really be

11 ashamed, because all of us could -- we were old enough to be his mother

12 and he ordered us to strip naked.

13 Q. During the time period that these three men were at Memic house,

14 did you have an opportunity to see their faces?

15 A. Well, yes. Of course I did.

16 Q. And did you hear them speaking to each other?

17 A. I don't remember. I don't know.

18 Q. Did you hear them speaking in general to other occupants in the

19 house?

20 A. Could be. They ordered us to do our job. I don't know whether

21 they talked to other people. We thought that we were doomed. I don't

22 know. Maybe they talked. I don't know. I wouldn't speculate about

23 anything that I know nothing about.

24 Q. My question, Madam Witness, is did you have an opportunity to

25 hear their voices during that time they were at the Memic house?

Page 1306

1 A. Yes. Yes. When they arrived, they said, "Give us cash and gold.

2 Put everything on the table." He took a knife out of his boot and said,

3 "This is what we are going to use if we find even the slightest coin on

4 anyone. We want all the money and the gold." This is what I heard.

5 Q. When you say he took a knife, can you tell us who "he" is?

6 A. I would say Milan. He was in the forefront. I'm not sure.

7 Sredoje was there, but it was Milan who did this.

8 Q. Now, how long did these men stay this time -- stay at the Memic

9 house?

10 A. Until we gave them all the money and the jewellery. I had some

11 money on me. And my sons came to me and said, "Give them -- give it to

12 them, mother. They're going to kill us." And I gave all the money that

13 was intended for my children's education and for everything else. I

14 never thought about weapons. I was just taking care of my children.

15 They took, I don't know, all my jewellery and put it on the table. I

16 buried my gold in the garden. I gave them the money.

17 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness. My question -- my next question

18 is, though, after giving them the valuables, did other things happen in

19 the house?

20 A. As far as I can remember, I think it was Milan who said that we

21 will go to a room in twos and threes, that they would strip us naked. I

22 was the first next to the door, and I entered the room. This man whose

23 name I don't know was sitting on a chair. There was a rifle next to him.

24 Another two persons came into the room with me, and he told me to take my

25 clothes off. I took my blazer off and a sweater. He probably wanted to

Page 1307

1 search me to see whether there was any money or jewellery hidden. And

2 then he said, "Can you see this finger of mine? This is how I want to

3 see you." This was horrible. I took my blouse off and my underwear. It

4 just -- well, off. That was horrendous. That was worse than being

5 killed. I had lived with my husband for 40 years. I had three children

6 by him. I couldn't behave like that in front of him, in front of this

7 young man, and I was old enough to be his mother. And after that, I

8 don't remember how things went on, how I got dressed again. I heard my

9 boy crying. I thought that he was going to be killed.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. I don't remember anything else.

12 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Witness.

13 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, I've been told by my colleague who

14 does speak Bosnian that there was a word left out on the record, so I'm

15 going to ask the witness a question and --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead.

17 MS. SARTORIO:

18 Q. Madam Witness, when they were doing this to you or just before

19 they did this to you, did they call you any names or did they say

20 anything to you?

21 A. These two didn't, but the other one when we were taking our

22 clothes off he used to call us "balija." He asked about the whereabouts

23 of my husband. I told him that he was in Montenegro, that he went

24 through the woods. He called me "balija."

25 As for the other two, they didn't. Whether they entered this

Page 1308

1 room or not, I don't know. Some say that Milan did. I don't know. And

2 they were searching the men. No, no, not these two.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, can I -- how long did all of this take?

4 Can you just give us an approximate time that these men were in this

5 house with you?

6 A. I don't know. There were a lot of women there, and they all took

7 turns. After that I went to this room and laid down. The women were

8 ushered in twos or threes. They were also searching men. Perhaps one

9 hour and -- or one hour and a half. I didn't have a wristwatch. How can

10 I know the time.

11 Q. But during this time, was it you were in fear and were you

12 thinking about the circumstances and who was around?

13 A. Some other heard there, but I'm not going to talk about it

14 because I didn't see it with my eyes. One could hear something from

15 outside the house. I'm not here to speak about anything that I

16 personally didn't see or go through.

17 Q. Now, at some point these men left, and then did they return to

18 the house?

19 A. They collected the jewellery and the money and said, "We are

20 going now to spend it on food and drink." They got into the car in which

21 they had arrived, and when they were at the door Jasmina was next to me.

22 She was washing my face, and he said, "You, Vila, and you in the leather

23 jacket come out." She was a young woman, maybe 17 or 18.

24 Q. And who is -- who is he? You said, "He said, 'You, Vila, and you

25 in the leather jacket, come out.'" Who said that if you can recall?

Page 1309

1 A. Milan said that.

2 Q. And then after this event did they leave the house?

3 A. All the three of them went and these two women went with them. I

4 was lying on the ground. Jasmina came again, crouched next to me because

5 she was in my house at the time when we left. That was in Koritnik. And

6 she came again to wash my face. I was so ashamed to ask her what she was

7 told. She asked her sister-in-law, but I didn't hear what she replied.

8 Actually, she didn't say anything. She just averted her eyes. I don't

9 remember her -- telling her anything.

10 Q. Now, after the three men -- did you notice what -- anything about

11 the vehicle -- or did they come in a vehicle and, if so, did you notice

12 anything about the vehicle?

13 A. They came in a car, and they went away in a car. The women

14 didn't get into the car. I don't think so. I don't know.

15 Q. Did you hear the car leaving?

16 A. Yes. It was a very noisy car, as if it didn't have an exhaust

17 pipe.

18 Q. Okay. Now, what did the occupants of this room do after the men

19 left?

20 A. Whether they came before or later, two soldiers came. The men

21 were sitting up there, and they just said, "You and you, come out to bury

22 two dead bodies." Then again, "You and you, come out. There are two

23 bodies in the creek." And the four men went out with these men while two

24 went towards Nezuci and the other two went towards Babin Potok, that is

25 to say, to bury two corpses.

Page 1310

1 They came back. They were not maltreated. They said that they

2 had buried Safet, our vet, and his wife. And the body in Nezuci was

3 Alija, and my neighbour said you just couldn't go near him. He was full

4 of maggots.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness. When you were in the room at this time did

6 any of the people talk about what had happened with the men who were

7 there at the house earlier?

8 A. Yes, Edhem said, and I heard him say that, "Imagine these

9 bastards who came among their people." I heard him saying the full name

10 of this young man, who his parents were. I wasn't paying attention. I

11 just remember that he mentioned his nickname, Lalco. That's all I know.

12 Q. Was there any discussion about Milan and Sredoje Lukic during

13 this time?

14 A. No, no. People were afraid. Well, they said nicely, "We are not

15 going touch you. The following day you will be given buses to leave."

16 If they had been treating us fairly, maybe we would have gone our ways.

17 We wouldn't have had to go through what we did. We didn't want to

18 disperse, because there were people who were feeble and infirm. They

19 didn't maltreat us at all.

20 Q. Yes. Thank you, Witness. My question is, though, do you know if

21 anyone in the room with you recognised Milan and Sredoje, and by

22 knowing -- did anybody tell you that they knew who these men were?

23 A. Yes. Jasmina told me that it was Milan Lukic but not -- I didn't

24 hear anything about Sredoje. She said that it was Milan Lukic because

25 she lived in Musici by the main road, and probably they passed by. I'm

Page 1311

1 not going to go into that. Jasmina's mother can come here and she can

2 tell you all the details. She is alive, and she's faring better than I

3 am. I came here because my neighbours begged me to do so. I'm on

4 medication, but I think it's better for Jasmina's mother to come here and

5 tell you all the details.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, some --

7 MS. SARTORIO: Is this the proper time to take the break,

8 Your Honour?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We adjourn.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

12 MS. SARTORIO: May I proceed, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

14 MS. SARTORIO: Just for the record, Your Honour, we would like to

15 substitute the pseudonym sheet that contains the names and pseudonyms of

16 the witnesses that may be referred to by this witness. The letters -- we

17 had to make the letters larger so that the witness could see the names,

18 so may we make that substitution?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

20 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

21 Q. Mrs. Witness -- sorry. Mrs. Witness, now I'd like to take you

22 back to the Memic house and later in the evening and ask you if anyone

23 returned to the house.

24 A. I don't understand the question.

25 Q. That probably is my fault. Later in the evening did anyone, any

Page 1312

1 of the men that you saw earlier in the day, come back to the house?

2 A. To Memic's?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. No.

5 Q. At some point did you leave the Memic house?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And do you remember approximately what time that was?

8 A. 10.00, 10.30.

9 Q. Now, how is it that you came to leave the Memic house? Was there

10 something that happened that caused you to leave?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what was that?

13 A. Well, we were sitting, the children were asleep. The same car

14 arrived as before, the one that arrived at 5.00 p.m., just before dark.

15 They got out of the car and outside the house, under the windows, a man

16 approached the door and told us that we should leave, that we were not

17 safe there, that Green Berets were arriving from up there and that we

18 should move over to the other house to be safer, that we should not take

19 our belongings with us, that we would be picking them up later.

20 Q. Now, when you say the same car arrived as before, how do you know

21 that it was the same car?

22 A. Well, I knew the car. We heard the sound. One of our neighbours

23 who lived by the road told us, "Now they'll kill us and burn us." That's

24 what she said. And even those of us who were a bit further away from her

25 overheard her say that.

Page 1313

1 Q. Now did you know who the soldier was who approached the door?

2 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. It must have been one of the

3 two, but I can't be precise, because as soon as they arrived the people

4 became upset. The children had to be woken. There were women among us

5 who had children aged 1 or 3, and there was a lot of noise all of a

6 sudden. People were protesting about having to move to the other house.

7 They said, "Why should we move to that other house?" I wouldn't be able

8 to tell you exactly.

9 One of the two did arrive. I knew by the sound of their voice

10 that it was the same ones who had been there before.

11 Q. And who were the -- who were those -- who were they? You have to

12 put that on the record and tell the Judges what you mean by "they." Who

13 were the same ones who had been there before? Sorry.

14 A. Well, who else but Sredoje and Milan. One of the two approached

15 the door only, but they were the only ones who knew that we were there.

16 They were the ones who left us there. By their voice, by the sound of

17 the car, and by the story that he told us politely, we knew who he was.

18 He wasn't one of us, but he was quite polite, and he told us that we had

19 to leave.

20 Q. And did any of the other persons in the house other than the

21 woman you just mentioned saying "They'll kill us and burn us," did anyone

22 say the names of those people? Did anyone talk about who these men were?

23 A. Yes. Yes. Everybody was shouting, "The Lukics. Here. The

24 Lukics are coming again." There is one lady who said, "Here, the Lukics

25 are coming over again. We're done for."

Page 1314

1 *Q. So then what happened next? Did you leave the house?

2 A. Yes, we did. I was among the last to leave. (redacted)

3 (redacted) so I was among the last to go down to that

4 house. They were on both sides in relation to us as we were moving to

5 the other house, and as we reached the door of the house there were

6 perhaps three or four of them milling around us. People were getting

7 into the house, and as soon as I heard those other women say --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. It's been brought to my

9 attention that there's a reference that should be redacted, or should we

10 be in closed session? Are you going to -- are you going to be on this

11 subject?

12 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, I think we should probably go into closed

13 session, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic?

15 MR. CEPIC: I think page 75, line 17, name, just to be redacted.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we saw that.

17 MS. SARTORIO: No, it's line 15, but I think she's going to be

18 talking about what happened, and she may be referring to this person.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session.

20 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.

22 MS. SARTORIO:

23 Q. And when -- and you say you left -- you left the Memic house.

24 You went to another house. Do you remember whose house that was?

25 A. I do. It was the house of Adem Omeragic, whose sister with her

Page 1315

1 daughter-in-law and two children came there to spend the night in that

2 house since we were supposed to take the bus the following morning, the

3 following day. I do remember that this was the house belonging to this

4 neighbour's brother.

5 Q. And how long did it take you to walk from the Memic house to this

6 second house?

7 A. Less than 20 metres.

8 Q. And did you see any of the men that were escorting the group?

9 A. Yes, we did, but we didn't dare to look directly at them. We

10 looked at their feet and made sure that we went to where we were told to

11 go. We didn't dare to watch them.

12 Q. Did they speak with you at all as you were walking?

13 A. No, not at all. They were making fun. And as I was the last one

14 to enter, he told me, "Get in, balija. What are you waiting for? Where

15 is Alija now to help you?"

16 Q. So this is -- when you say you were the last one to enter, are

17 you talking about entering the Omeragic house now?

18 A. Yes. Yes, precisely. I mean the Omeragic house. I was the last

19 one to enter the house or the last but one. Perhaps there was another

20 woman behind me. I know that there was no space in the room. It was so

21 full of people that I hesitated at the door, and he pushed me inside.

22 Q. You say "he," "he pushed me inside," and "he told me --"

23 A. A soldier. A soldier. I don't know who he was. I didn't look

24 him in the face.

25 Q. Did you recognise his voice?

Page 1316

1 A. But he was one of those who -- yes. It was those people who told

2 us to move. He was with us as we set out from the other house.

3 Q. And, Madam Witness, you have to tell us who "those" are. You

4 have to tell the Judges who "those" are.

5 A. Well, the Lukics, who else? I've said this so many times now.

6 Now, whether it was Milan or Sredoje, I didn't lift my head to see which

7 one was next to me. I didn't dare to. I was trying to make sure that I

8 know where I was heading rather than looking at who was it who was

9 pushing me ahead.

10 Q. But you heard the voice of the person?

11 A. Yes. Yes. Even now I remember that there was something pushing

12 me in the back. I don't know whether it was a rifle or something else,

13 but I do recall those words, "Where is Alija now to help you?"

14 Q. And was the person -- the voice that you heard say, "Where is

15 Alija now to help you," is that the voice of someone that you had seen

16 earlier in the Memic house?

17 MR. ALARID: Objection.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

19 MR. ALARID: Objection.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.

21 MR. ALARID: Objection. Leading and unduly suggestive.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Next question, Ms. Sartorio. It was

23 leading.

24 MS. SARTORIO:

25 Q. The person who said, "Where is Alija now to help you," did you

Page 1317

1 recognise that voice?

2 A. Well, yes. It must have been one of the two who told us that,

3 one of those who came to the house, because he accompanied us all the

4 way. There were others on the other side, but this one was following us

5 to make sure that we all got there, and I was among the last ones, so he

6 was following me, and he was the one who said, "Where's Alija now to help

7 you?"

8 Q. And when you heard this, did you associate this voice with any

9 person --

10 MR. ALARID: Objection, leading.

11 MS. SARTORIO: I'm asking --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me hear the rest of the question.

13 MS. SARTORIO: That was the question. Did you associate this

14 voice with any person.

15 MR. ALARID: And I would say asked and answered at that point,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think that's leading.

18 Answer the question. Did you associate that voice with any

19 person?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. It was either Sredoje

21 or Milan. Who else could it have been? Yes. That was what they wanted

22 to do, to finish us off. I realised as I was coming to the house that

23 this is where we all meet our end.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: But can you say which of the two the voice

25 belonged to? You said it was either Milan or Sredoje.

Page 1318

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say that. I didn't look

2 them in the face to see which one was saying those words. One of them

3 was following me, and most probably it was the one who came to the house

4 and that must have been Milan. But I didn't look him in the face. When

5 they were talking, I didn't dare to look up. I just proceeded on my way.

6 MS. SARTORIO:

7 Q. So now, Witness, please tell the Chamber after you got into the

8 second house, tell them what happened.

9 A. When I entered the house they closed the door. A burst of fire

10 was shot. The door was opened again and they said, "Listen, can you hear

11 the Green Berets shooting up there beyond Babin Potok?" They closed the

12 door again. The people inside were crying. They were upset. We knew

13 that they were either going to kill us all or burn us.

14 I turned toward the window, and as I reached the window I lost

15 control. There was my child there. I reached the window, and as the

16 door opened, a flame appeared as large as the door itself. I turned

17 toward the window trying to smash the pane to let some air in. There was

18 smoke that was choking me. I placed my left hand on my mouth, and I used

19 my right hand to smash at the window. I tried five or six times before

20 the windowpane was smashed.

21 I tried to go out that way, and I heard a grenade explode. There

22 was a sort of a mesh there that was on my way, and I had trouble going

23 through the window, but my child approached me from the back and pushed

24 me out of the window. I felt something wet on my hand. It was a bit

25 paralysed. My child pushed me out of the window and said, "Let's run

Page 1319

1 away, mom." I was unable to run, so he pulled me towards the creek, and

2 as he pulled me by the creek we got into it.

3 At that point there was light from a flashlight torch behind us,

4 but we managed to duck down, cross the creek and hide behind the tree.

5 They turned toward other individuals who were trying to run for their

6 lives.

7 It had been raining the whole day and night. We spent the night

8 by the creek and then went up where we found a safe place to hide. We

9 listened for -- we listened to the screams and moans for an hour or two.

10 We were by the creek, crouching one by the other.

11 We heard somebody coming up the creek. We were afraid that they

12 were looking for us, but it was one individual who managed to get away

13 and who went past us. We didn't dare shout to the person for fear that

14 we would be discovered.

15 The person went up the creek, and it was another individual who

16 managed to survive and flee the fire.

17 Q. Yes. Thank you. Could you tell us if you know that person and

18 any other persons who escaped the fire that night?

19 A. Yes, I know the person. Had they all managed to escape, I would

20 not be the only one to go back to my village, the only one alive.

21 Q. Can you give us the names of the persons that you know survived?

22 A. Well, I don't know. Let me see here.

23 Q. You're in closed session, so you can use the names.

24 A. Under number 13, and number 38, and number 84.

25 Q. And do you know many of the persons who perished in that fire

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision dated 4 August 2011.