1 Friday, 5 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.51 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. For the sake
7 of the report, in relation to Witness VG-18, let me inform you that it
8 was only at 7.33 p.m. last evening that we received the proofing list for
9 that witness which contains very significant and extensive modifications
10 which makes our preparation more difficult. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'll ask Ms. Sartorio to address the
13 particulars of it, but I would remind Mr. Cepic and the Chamber that this
14 was the witness who I rescheduled earlier in the week because she became
15 ill after she arrived here. I know Ms. Sartorio was working with her all
16 day yesterday and given the length of time between her statement and now,
17 she had made some changes. I have not seen the document. I don't know
18 how many changes were made to the statement. I'll leave it to the
19 Chamber to decide what's warranted, but I do make the point that this was
20 the woman that became ill after she arrived in The Hague.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can I ask the court deputy to have somebody look
23 at the computers. We don't have the transcript.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: How long would this witness take, Mr. Groome,
1 and do you have another witness that's available?
2 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. The only two witnesses remaining
3 for this week are VG-18 and VG-84. They are mother and son.
4 Your Honour --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: The point that Mr. Cepic made relates to VG-18.
6 MR. GROOME: Yes. That's the second witness for today. I --
7 it's possible that we may only begin her evidence today and may have to
8 conclude it on Monday, or if the Court -- another suggestion I might make
9 is the video that I introduced yesterday is approximately 15 to 20
10 minutes long. At some point we'll have to look at that video. It was
11 introduced yesterday. That's something also at that we could do to give
12 Mr. Cepic and Mr. Alarid some time if the Court feels that is warranted.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The Chamber's ruling is that we should
14 proceed, and we'll make any adjustments as -- as necessary, but I had
15 wanted on behalf of the Chamber, Mr. Groome, to raise a matter relating
16 to the witnesses for next week, because we observe that Mr. Vasiljevic is
17 down for a portion of Wednesday and all day Thursday, which might suggest
18 that we might not have enough time to finish him in the course of the
19 week, and we wonder whether he shouldn't be called earlier.
20 MR. GROOME: I think this is a good illustration of how difficult
21 it is to estimate witnesses. I actually thought that that might be too
22 much time for him. So we have the flexibility. Mr. Cepic informs me
23 that Mr. Domazet, who has been hired by the registry to represent him is
24 asking that he not be taken until Wednesday, but if we have him on
25 Wednesday, I'm more than willing to move back witnesses to make whatever
1 adjustments so that we have a full opportunity to hear him. I don't
2 believe he could go further than Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of next
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before we proceed there is a matter
6 that I must bring to your attention and I ask that we go into private
7 session for that.
8 [Private session]
11 Page 1242 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-84 [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration -- the
20 witness is still under the declaration that he had made.
21 MS. MARCUS: May I begin, Your Honours?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
23 Examination by Ms. Marcus: [Continued]
24 Q. Good morning, VG-84.
25 A. Good morning.
1 MS. MARCUS: Could I ask the court officer kindly to call up
2 Exhibit P74 and to turn to e-court page 4, please. Once we get to page
3 4, perhaps we could focus on the upper half of the page.
4 Q. VG-84, do you see the -- your statement on the screen in front of
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. Can you see the paragraph which begins "About one-half to one
8 hour after Mitar left"?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. I'd like to ask you to read over that paragraph to yourself and
11 then I will ask you a few follow-up questions.
12 A. I have to read it aloud?
13 Q. No. You can just read it over to yourself.
14 A. Right. There's no need for me to read it. You can go ahead with
15 the questions. I have sufficient knowledge about all this.
16 Q. In this paragraph you mentioned Sredoje Lukic, and you described
17 his actions. Can you tell the Chamber how did you know Sredoje Lukic?
18 A. Yes. Two -- or, rather, three men came to the house, the
19 Memic house. There was several others behind the house, but I wasn't
20 able to observe how many of them were behind the house, and there were
21 several in front of the house. Two men came into the house, Milan Lukic
22 and Sredoje Lukic. There was one elderly man and all my neighbours and
23 friends who were in the house knew him, and 20 to 25 per cent of them
24 knew Sredoje Lukic who was allegedly a policeman. I was a child at the
25 time, so I didn't know him.
1 We had heard of him -- do you want me to go on explaining?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. We heard of him while we were in our village, the village of
5 Q. VG-84, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Just a moment, please.
6 A. Very well.
7 Q. Let's just take it step-by-step. As you see, your statement is
8 on the screen in front of everybody, and we can all read it in English,
9 including the Judges, so it's also in evidence, so this will be
10 considered in detail. I'm simply going to focus you on a few small
11 follow-up questions.
12 So you say that you -- that 20 to 25 per cent of your neighbours
13 who were in the Memic house with you knew Sredoje Lukic?
14 A. Yes. Both of them. Both Sredoje and Milan. I'm telling you how
15 it was roughly. I don't know the details. I was just under 14. I
16 wasn't checking who knew him, but between 20 to 25 per cent of those who
17 were in the house knew the two men who came into the room -- or, rather,
18 the three men, because the third one remained in the corridor.
19 Q. Why would you have believed your neighbours that this was in fact
20 Sredoje Lukic?
21 A. Well, why wouldn't they believe us? This was not a town of
22 1 million. Some 10.000 inhabited it. It was a small town.
23 Q. Now, how did you know Milan Lukic?
24 A. The same was true for him. I saw him for the first time there,
25 but I had heard of him in my village of Koritnik, and though I saw him
1 for the first time in the house, there were others with me who knew him,
2 perhaps got to know him the same way I did.
3 Q. What -- on what basis do you believe that they knew Milan Lukic?
4 A. There were girls in the house who used to go to school with him,
5 so they used to be schoolmates, and they -- they seemed like perfect
6 strangers. It was the changing times that did their thing.
7 Q. To your knowledge was there anyone else by the name of
8 Milan Lukic in Visegrad during 1992, other than the one you're referring
9 to now?
10 A. Absolutely not.
11 MS. MARCUS: Could the court officer please focus on the middle
13 Q. It begins with the words "After they (Sredoje and his group)
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. VG-84, I'll ask you just to take a moment, please, to read
17 through that paragraph before I ask you a few follow-up questions.
18 A. You can go ahead with the questions.
19 Q. Did you recognise any other members of the group other than
20 Sredoje Lukic?
21 A. Other than Sredoje there was Milan with him and another soldier
22 who I didn't know. He was in the house and there were several others
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a moment. Mr. Cepic.
25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, both in the statement,
1 and the witness confirmed here today clearly that he hadn't known Milan
2 and Sredoje Lukic before he got to know them as he got into the house,
3 and my learned friend has been putting her question and it was formulated
5 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, in this paragraph which is in
6 evidence, the witness describes Sredoje Lukic. He previously testified
7 that he was informed by his neighbours who were detained with him that
8 that was in fact Sredoje Lukic, and based on his understanding he
9 describes Sredoje Lukic and his group, and in the middle of this
10 paragraph he describes there were about 10 to 15 soldiers and he's
11 mentioning soldiers. So the question was: Did you recognise any other
12 members of the group which is referred to in this paragraph. The
13 question stems directly from the witness's statement.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe the question is unobjectionable. It
15 will be for you, Mr. Cepic, in cross-examination to seek to impugn the
16 witness's knowledge of Sredoje Lukic.
17 You can question him as to the basis for his knowledge and seek
18 to destroy. Yes, please proceed.
19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 MS. MARCUS:
21 Q. VG-84, this paragraph describes the trajectory from the Memic
22 house to the Omeragic house. You mention in this paragraph that there
23 was a light at the Omeragic house. What about along the path from the
24 Memic house to the Omeragic house?
25 A. The Memic house is some 30 metres away from the Omeragic house.
1 This is an approximation. As we got out of the Memic house - I'm
2 describing it the way I saw it - and as I was on my way to the Omeragic
3 house, there was some light outside the house. There were torches, and
4 there was light coming from the surrounding houses. This made it
5 possible for me to see quite well.
6 Q. Why -- why do you think that the Omeragic house was the house
7 which was chosen?
8 A. Because it was right next to a creek, and this would muffle the
9 voices and the wailing of the women and the children.
10 MS. MARCUS: Could the court officer please go to the bottom of
11 the page, focusing on the bottom half.
12 Q. VG-84, I'd like to focus you on the bottom paragraph on that
13 page. Would you like to read it through briefly before I ask you some
14 follow-up questions?
15 A. You can go ahead.
16 Q. As you were hiding behind the tree with your mother, do you
17 recall hearing anything?
18 A. Yes. I heard the crying of the children, of the elderly women,
19 moans, shouts. I heard a blast and shooting. The house was engulfed in
20 flames. I didn't see much, though, because I ducked my head. I was
21 trying to make sure that I stay alive.
22 Q. To your recollection, how many children under your age at the
23 time, so under 13, were burned to death on that day?
24 A. Some 10 to 15. There was even a two-day-old baby that her mother
25 gave birth to in the nearby forests.
1 MS. MARCUS: Could the court officer call up 65 ter 178.52. For
2 the information of the Chamber, this is a photograph. The photograph was
3 taken on the 1st of September of 2001.
4 Q. VG-84, do you recognise what is shown on this photograph?
5 A. I do. Yes.
6 Q. Before I ask the witness to mark the photograph, would it be
7 possible to admit the unmarked photograph so that we can refer to it with
8 other witnesses?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph will become Exhibit number P77.
11 MS. MARCUS: Could I ask the court usher to assist the witness,
12 please, in marking the photograph.
13 Q. VG-84, can you identify the Memic house on this photograph?
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. Could you kindly mark that location, the Memic house, with
16 an M for Memic.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Can you identify the Omeragic house?
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Okay.
21 MS. MARCUS: The witness has marked the Omeragic house with an O.
22 Q. Can you please trace the path from the Memic house to the
23 Omeragic house with an arrow.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. And can you circle the window you jumped out of with your mother?
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Please now kindly mark the approximate location on the creek
3 where you and your mother hid behind the tree once you had escaped, and
4 please mark that location with an X.
5 A. This is the creek, and to make it clear, this is how the creek
6 runs, and this is the tree. It was a pear tree, I believe, under
7 which -- or behind which my mother and I hid.
8 Q. VG-84, could you please place your pseudonym at the bottom of the
9 photo. You can just write "VG-84."
10 A. [Marks]
11 MS. MARCUS: And could I admit this marked photo, please. I
12 tender this marked photo.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will become Exhibit number P78,
15 Your Honours.
16 MS. MARCUS: Could I ask the court officer, please, to call up
17 65 ter 175.7.
18 For the information of the Chamber, this is a still which is
19 taken from the 360-degree photograph.
20 Q. VG-84, do you recognise what is shown on this photograph?
21 A. Yes. A house -- or, rather, the Omeragic house.
22 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, may I tender this unmarked photo into
23 evidence so we can use it with other witnesses?
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as Exhibit P79, Your Honours.
1 MS. MARCUS:
2 Q. VG-84, could you please, on this photograph, trace the path along
3 which you and the other detainees approached the Omeragic house.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. And can you now please mark with a V the door through which you
6 entered, V for "vrata," for "door."
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. And could you now please put an X at the location on the creek,
9 the approximate location, where you hid with your mother behind the tree.
10 A. Beyond the creek. [Marks]
11 Q. I'd ask you again to please place your pseudonym at the bottom of
12 this photo, "VG-84" at the bottom.
13 A. [Marks]
14 MS. MARCUS: And with that, Your Honours, I tender this marked
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Marked photo will become Exhibit number P80.
18 MS. MARCUS: Could I request private session for the last
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
3 (redacted) And of course there were other people there, too,
4 who had been in the house before who I didn't know.
5 Q. What is your most vivid memory of that day?
6 A. I -- I remember all of it. I'm 30 now, and I still remember
7 everything, the crying of the children, the wailing of the women and men,
8 the blasts, the -- the shots from firearms and so on.
9 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, we can return to open session, and I
10 have no further questions for this witness.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, open session.
12 [Open session]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
15 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. 84.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. My name is Jason Alarid and I represent Mr. Milan Lukic. I'd
20 like to ask you a few questions regarding your statements. Obviously
21 they've been introduced into evidence, and some of the things that you've
22 talked about in those statements and today. Is that okay?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you know the first thing that comes to me when you say how
25 vivid this is in your mind, it must have been a terrible experience for a
1 young boy to go through that I can't even begin to imagine not having
2 been through it.
3 A. Thank you for your understanding.
4 Q. And when you escaped this tragedy with your mother into the
5 creek, that was at the -- that was at the very beginning of the incident,
6 wasn't it? The fire had just started --
7 A. No, no, no. The fire had already caught in the home, and there
8 were grenades blasting, and had there been more, I would not be sitting
9 here today.
10 Q. Actually, yes, sir, that's what I meant, and all I say, though,
11 is that was it at the very beginning that this grenade, and you received
12 the shrapnel in your head?
13 A. Yes, yes. There wasn't just one grenade. There were several of
14 them falling. There was fire from -- there was shots from firearms. And
15 the fire, the way it started burning, it wasn't like you -- you had a
16 small spark, and it did not develop slowly. You could escape from such a
17 fire. But there were -- there were weapons there. There were blasts
18 from grenades. And let me clarify this. I ended up only 50 metres away.
19 Q. And the -- in looking at the photographs that the Prosecutor
20 showed you, it appears that there's a lot of vegetation on the slope into
21 the creek, in the bottom of the creek, and obviously up the other side of
22 the creek to the pear tree where you were able to hide yourselves. Is
23 that -- was it the same back then or similar?
24 A. No. There wasn't anything. There was just the undergrowth, and
25 the only tree that was there was the one we hid behind, because this was
1 a maintained garden. The owner of the house perhaps left the house a
2 month earlier, but it had been tended before that.
3 Q. Well, and would it be fair to say where you and your mom were
4 hiding afterwards, it was able to protect you from both -- from the
5 people on the other side of the ravine?
6 A. How would it protect me? I was only on the other side of the
7 creek. You were able to see the house and everything. It's just that we
8 didn't dare watch what was happening. I ducked my head. I almost buried
9 it in the ground. There were people with torches around. There were
10 houses around from where the light was coming.
11 Q. I'm probably using the wrong words and when it translates it even
12 gets more confused. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, trust me.
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. What I'm more concerned about is really that there was something
15 about where you were able to hide that protected you from these people
16 across the way, torches or not.
17 MS. MARCUS: Objection. This question has been asked and
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll allow him to answer it.
20 Give us the answer.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a tree, sir. Whether it
22 was a peach tree or a pear tree, I don't know. Had it not been for this
23 tree, I would have been killed perhaps.
24 MR. ALARID:
25 Q. How much time do you think had elapsed between when that fire
1 first rose up to the grenade that injured your head?
2 A. You know, not more than five minutes. Five minutes. Maybe not
3 even five minutes.
4 Q. And, see, this is why sometimes reading things on paper don't
5 always give a good picture of things, because when I read the statement,
6 it seemed like it happened very quickly.
7 A. I know, I know. Okay. Okay, okay.
8 Q. And it felt like from reading it that once the insanity and chaos
9 started you -- the only reason you survived was you were able to get out
10 quickly. Otherwise, you would have shared the same fate as the people in
11 the room.
12 A. Yes, the same. That's true. And because I managed to -- to grab
13 the opportunity before the person who is -- who came under the window,
14 who started shooting at people. There were people who were wounded.
15 Q. Now, the person that came under the window and was shooting at
16 people and wounding people, you weren't able to recognise him in the
17 chaos, that person?
18 A. No. That's what I said in all my statements.
19 Q. And --
20 A. I was just trying to -- to run for my life.
21 Q. Absolutely. And another mother and son were able to escape
22 around the same time as you. Were they before you or after you?
23 A. Another mother -- except for this mother and the son, there was
24 another mother who was the first to break the window and jump out, and
25 later on I jumped and another child was with me. Actually, a friend of
1 mine. I don't remember whether I was the first or was he before me. His
2 mother was the fourth person to jump out, and she was wounded. You know
3 that. You had an opportunity to see that.
4 Q. Yes, sir, I did. And so was your mom the first one out the
5 window? Even though someone else broke the window, your mom was first?
6 A. Well, there was another window. Maybe somebody jumped out of it.
7 I didn't pay attention anyway. The window that I jumped out of and that
8 I encircled on the photograph, my mother was the first to jump out of it.
9 Q. And from where you were -- so it was pretty lucky that you were
10 able to be at the window right when this chaos started.
11 A. No. I was in the middle of the house. There was a big table in
12 the middle of the house. I was just a child, a 14-year-old boy. I
13 couldn't imagine what was going to happen to me. I couldn't imagine that
14 I was going to die in a fire. I don't think I have to tell you any more.
15 Q. And I really don't want to talk too much, because I know this is
16 extremely painful for you.
17 A. Yes. If necessary, I am at your service here.
18 Q. Now, from where you were in the table in the middle of the room,
19 how many people were between you and the door?
20 A. It was fully packed. The room was of such size. It wasn't a big
21 room. I don't know exactly how big it was, but people were cram-packed.
22 Q. And when the -- is it fair to say that you reacted to move
23 towards your mother and the window when the fire started or before that?
24 A. Yes, when it all started. Why not -- why would I go before that?
25 I was feeling fine.
1 Q. The only reason I thought you might have gone before that because
2 it was probably very scary in the dark after they had shut all your
3 family members in this room and maybe you would have wanted to be closer
4 to her and I didn't know because I couldn't tell from reading.
5 A. I was sitting on that table. My mother was already ready close
6 to the window. She was an adult and she knew what was in the offing. I
7 was just a child. Only when the fire started and the grenades did I
9 Q. And a sad fact is that -- well, there were probably people also
10 between your mother and the door as well because it was so packed.
11 A. Yes, yes. There were people between the table where I was and my
12 mother. Actually, the window. There were many people, but when the
13 detonations and the shooting and the fire started, everybody lay on the
14 ground. I just can't describe this situation to you.
15 Q. And I don't want to put you through much more and we'll move out
16 of this room as quick as we can.
17 Tragically, the people that were between the door and your mother
18 probably helped protect you and your mom and allowed you that brief
19 opportunity to escape. Isn't that fair?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And the only reason I said that was is because they were sort of
22 a shield between the fire that started by the door, and even some of the
23 shrapnel, probably, was blocked by other people.
24 A. Yes, it's possible.
25 Q. Would the -- did the people in the room make it difficult for you
1 to see out the door when the fire started? Were you able to see the door
2 open and close or anything like that?
3 MS. MARCUS: Objection. This is a misrepresentation of the
4 witness's statement. The witness's statement is that the door closed
5 behind him when he entered the house. The door was closed. That's in
6 the witness's evidence.
7 MR. ALARID:
8 Q. The only reason --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Reformulate, Mr. Alarid.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I wasn't looking at the door.
11 The door was closed, sir. Whether it was locked or not, you can find it
12 in the statements.
13 MR. ALARID:
14 Q. And that's exactly -- I mean, many people saw this from different
15 angles, and some people may have seen the door open, and I was wondering
16 if you saw that.
17 A. No, no, no.
18 Q. So the first thing that shocked you, of course, was the fire and
19 then the explosion.
20 A. The door was blasted out and the fire started immediately. I
21 don't know what they did, how they did that. And this was followed by
22 explosions and by shooting.
23 Q. Now, I want to back up a little bit in time to the procession
24 from the one house to the other house. Can we do that?
25 A. Yes, I can.
1 Q. Now, you indicate that there were a couple people obviously that
2 you named in your statement, three people in fact. You mentioned
3 Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and Mitar Vasiljevic?
4 A. Yes. I mentioned Mitar Vasiljevic in my testimony.
5 Q. And Mitar Vasiljevic, the first time you had ever laid eyes on
6 him was earlier in the day at the Red Cross? Okay.
7 A. Yes. No, not at the Red Cross. The first time I saw him was at
8 the Memic's house. Maybe somebody did see him there but I didn't. You
9 can also find that in my statement, when he came in front of the Memic
11 Q. And he purported to give one of the members of your group a piece
12 of paper that ensured safety?
13 A. Yes, yes, yes.
14 Q. And -- and he was unarmed at this time?
15 A. No, I don't remember that.
16 Q. And was he non-threatening to the group? Did he appear back
17 earlier that he was a friend of the group or maybe less than a friend but
18 at least someone that wasn't a threat?
19 A. What group?
20 Q. Your group. Your group.
21 A. What group?
22 Q. Your group of people.
23 A. That was not a five-member group. That was 70 people. That was
24 my entire village.
25 Q. Yes, sir.
1 A. You'd better be clear, and you should say, "Your village,"
2 because this was the whole village. He didn't pose a threat to me.
3 Q. And that's what I was more trying to get at as opposed to the
4 number of people, and I apologise. I'm more important on what was your
5 impression of this man that came to visit. Is that okay?
6 A. Yes. I am at your disposal should you need some additional
8 Q. And so this man who -- how did you come to know him as Mitar,
9 because you were just a boy.
10 A. He introduced himself. He said that he was -- name was
11 Mitar Vasiljevic, that he came from the Red Cross, and he came -- he gave
12 the paper to Mujo Halilovic. He purported to be a good man trying to
13 provide safety to us.
14 Q. Now, did you hear anything or know about him as a waiter in town
15 at the Panos -- for the Panos company?
16 A. Yes, a waiter at the Panos.
17 Q. And had you and your family ever been served by him?
18 A. No. I was a young boy. Many people knew him.
19 Q. And after he introduced himself did people in your family and
20 village talk about him as being a waiter, or did you come to that
21 knowledge after the incident?
22 A. I heard that from the people who were there, that he was a
23 waiter. A lot of people had known him there. Being a waiter in a small
24 town is a big deal. There were not many hotels in Visegrad, only one.
25 Q. Can you recall what he was wearing, Mitar Vasiljevic, when you
1 saw him?
2 A. You can find that in my statement. Whether he wore a dark suit
3 or a camouflage uniform, I don't remember.
4 Q. And the person that you named as Milan Lukic, can you recall what
5 he was wearing that -- that day?
6 A. I can remember. I remember.
7 Q. Please tell the Court.
8 A. A camouflage uniform.
9 Q. Was he wearing anything on his head, a hat?
10 A. I don't remember. No, he didn't.
11 Q. Do you --
12 A. Well, I'm not sure whether it's a yes or a no, so I'd rather say
13 I don't remember.
14 Q. That's a fair answer after the time that's passed. Do you recall
15 what weapons he may have had?
16 A. A sniper rifle.
17 Q. And the person that you named as Sredoje Lukic, what do you
18 believe he was wearing on that day?
19 A. Yes. Some sort of camouflage uniform. Basically, they were in
21 Q. Do you remember any insignias on any of these uniforms, anything
22 to mark them?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you remember if the person that you believe to be Sredoje,
25 what he -- if he was armed?
1 A. Yes, he was.
2 Q. How do you believe he was armed?
3 A. He had some kind of automatic weapon.
4 Q. Do you remember a hat?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Now, you indicated on -- on direct examination that 20 to 25 per
7 cent of the people knew Sredoje and Milan.
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Can you -- were you able to -- to make sense or make the
10 difference between how they knew the different Lukics that you believe?
11 A. Let me make it clear for you. Ninety-five people from my village
12 knew about Milan, if that's helpful. They heard of him before we came to
13 this house.
14 Q. So --
15 A. First of all, we were afraid to sleep in our own homes. For a
16 month or two we slept in the forest, because we were afraid of that
17 group. So some people had heard of them without seeing them, and some
18 people knew them.
19 Q. Did -- kind of going back to the fear your village had been in
20 for quite some time, isn't it true that back at the beginning --
21 A. Yes, yes. We had lived for two months under their occupation.
22 Since April when Visegrad fell to the Uzice Corps until the day in June
23 when we were set on fire.
24 Q. Was there a time when your village was attacked before -- by your
25 neighbours before the exodus from your village?
1 A. They attacked the whole of Visegrad, not just my village. They
2 just passed through the village looking for weapons and we were left
3 living in the forests or in barns, sometimes in houses, but we were
4 living in fear.
5 Q. Do you know who organised the exodus from your village?
6 A. No, I don't remember. From the village -- from the direction of
7 Prelovo where their headquarters was there. The gentlemen sitting behind
8 you will know better than I do. So all the initiatives came from that.
9 All the negotiations were launched from that headquarters involving not
10 only my village but all the other villages as well.
11 Q. Had you known or heard of a Dragomir Gavrilovic at that time, a
12 neighbour of yours?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. What did you know of this Gavrilovic?
15 A. Hardly anything. He threatened my mother, but my mother will be
16 able to tell you more about that.
17 Q. And did you -- you indicated that in April of 1992 the Serbian
18 police came to your village.
19 A. Yes. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Did you know the identity of these police?
21 A. No. No. The Serbian police and army were all mixed together.
22 You couldn't distinguish them. People would come to villages for
23 negotiations in order to evacuate the village.
24 Q. And this was before the Uzice Corps came to town or to Visegrad?
25 A. No, no, no. That was a couple of days before we were burned in
1 the house, and also you can find in my statements that before the
2 Uzice Corps we had to flee.
3 Q. Well -- and the reason I'm confused is because I'm reading three
4 statements. I'm reading the testimony that you gave at trial, I'm
5 reading a statement that you were able to review with the Prosecutor that
6 was given in 2001, but I'm also reading a statement you gave when you
7 were 16 years old to the security forces in Sarajevo in 1995.
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Were you able to review the oldest statement as well as your
10 other statements before you testified today?
11 A. Yes. I had an opportunity to review everything, and if anything
12 needs clarification I am here, because I prefer to clarify things in this
13 way. There could be some minute details, but by the way you sound, it
14 seems that a lot is not correct.
15 MR. ALARID: Could the court usher please pull up what's been
16 uploaded as 1D10-0344, which is the English version of the 14 November
17 1995 statement, and 1D10-0347, which is the B/C/S version. And the first
18 page of both, please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 MR. ALARID:
21 Q. And do you see the first sentence right below "Statement"? It
22 says: "... April 1992, the Serbian police came one morning to the
23 village ..."
24 A. Yes. Yes, sir. That's how you should ask me. That's the first
25 time that when we left our village, when the Uzice Corps came. So that
1 was the first time, in April, that we had to flee. And then later we
2 came back. First we went to the village of Vrstanica, and then to the
3 stadium in Visegrad. When the corps occupied the town, we spent the
4 night in the Drina Hotel and then the following day we went back to our
6 Q. Okay. And that's kind of what -- do you understand why I'm
7 confused about some of the dates?
8 A. Okay. Okay.
9 Q. I really don't want to molest you in any way or bother you. I
10 just want to get through this and you can go home.
11 A. I appreciate that.
12 Q. Now, do you know those Serbian policemen, I guess is the question
13 I want to ask, that first time you were forced to leave your home?
14 A. No. No, no.
15 Q. And in April of 1992, isn't it true that you hadn't heard of
16 Milan Lukic before the chaos began in April and the Uzice Corps were
17 required to come into Visegrad or came into Visegrad?
18 A. No, I hadn't.
19 Q. And when you went to the football stadium, in your first
20 statement, and it's down a little bit further, you cited that there was a
21 General Milovanovic. Is it fair that that could be corrected to
22 Jovanovic, if you remember?
23 A. Yes, yes. I don't remember exactly, so it's either Jovanovic or
25 Q. Okay. Now, this general, he came in a big spectacle in a
1 helicopter. Isn't that true?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. And there were soldiers all around the stadium and your people
4 were herded into this stadium to hear the address of this general. Isn't
5 that true?
6 A. Yes. People had been brought to the stadium, and they wanted to
7 see what to do with all this crowd, because the entire right-hand bank of
8 the Drina was there. Actually, people had come from the forest to the
9 stadium to hear what the corps will have to say to them.
10 Q. Do you remember --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid. Mr. Alarid, just to let you know,
12 you have another 15 minutes.
13 MR. ALARID: Fifteen?
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour. I will wrap this up.
16 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that this general indicated that he had the
17 White Eagles in control and that you believe there was White Eagles in
18 this stadium?
19 A. Yes, yes, yes.
20 Q. What was your understanding of the White Eagles at that time even
21 though you were a boy?
22 A. Well, they had special belts. These were special troops guarding
23 him. They had white belts and -- and special weapons. That was only
24 part of the Uzice Corps called the White Eagles. They were part of the
25 Uzice Corps.
1 Q. Now, I'd like to go on this same and --
2 MR. ALARID: And at this time, Your Honour, just so I don't
3 forget, I'd like to tender 1D10-0344 into evidence, please, under seal.
4 MS. MARCUS: Objection.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Marcus.
6 MS. MARCUS: The witness talked about some possibilities that
7 there were some clarifications. In fact, Mr. Alarid himself referred to
8 some issues which he believes require clarification. There was no
9 foundation laid for the authenticity of this document, so I would -- I
10 would hope that that could be done before it was tendered into evidence.
11 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, obviously we received this from
12 the OTP, so I mean I'm assuming they know about it. We can go to
13 signature pages if that's what we need to do, but I also believe the
14 Prosecutor can address these matters on redirect.
15 MS. MARCUS: Just because a document comes from the OTP doesn't
16 mean it's been authenticated by the OTP.
17 MR. ALARID: Well, then I'd like additional cross-examination
18 time, because that really slows me down.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: He has a lot of confidence in you, Ms. Marcus.
20 Can you lay a foundation then for its admission?
21 MR. ALARID: Certainly.
22 Q. Mr. VG-84, you do remember giving this statement in 1995? Your
23 mother --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Your mother was present at this statement?
1 A. I don't remember that.
2 Q. Can you go down --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. We admit it. We admit the
4 statement. Let's move on.
5 THE REGISTRAR: The statement will become Exhibit number 1D32,
6 Your Honours, under seal.
7 MR. ALARID:
8 Q. Now, I'd like to move to page 2 of the English version, but it
9 may be on the first page of the Serbian version. Just a moment, please.
10 But do you recall in the statement, and maybe we don't have to go to the
11 exact location, do you recall mentioning that Dragomir Gavrilovic was one
12 of the same group, and you indicated that they were policemen that came
13 to the house that night of the tragedy?
14 A. I don't remember. I don't remember him being there.
15 Q. Do you see his name on the first page of your statement?
16 Actually, it's on page 2 of the statement, middle of the page, please.
17 And I'm looking to the middle of that large paragraph and I see
18 "Dragomir Gavrilovic," and I see him referred in a sentence after you
19 referred to four policemen coming to the home.
20 A. Maybe he was mentioned, because during the day while we were on
21 the way he passed by us.
22 Q. And who is Radomir Djuric?
23 A. From the village of Loznica. Whether he was in the police or the
24 military, I can't tell. He came once or twice to our village.
25 Q. Now, this is going to sound like a silly question, but do you
1 remember --
2 A. Go ahead.
3 Q. Do you remember at any time during this night that the man that
4 you believe to be Mitar Vasiljevic being on a white horse with a cast on
5 his leg?
6 A. At night or during the day?
7 Q. At any time on a white horse?
8 A. Only during the day, that he came outside the house, as I already
9 described, that he gave us a piece of paper, but there was no horse
11 Q. And that's all I wanted to know to be honest. Do you remember
12 the day -- the day that you started walking -- or actually, the day you
13 were told you were going to have to evacuate your village, that was the
14 day before that you actually walked; is that correct?
15 A. No. No. We were told on the 13th, and we -- or it was on the
16 12th or the 13th that we were told to leave, and then on the 14th we
17 left, and on the evening of the 14th we were set on fire.
18 Q. Do you remember what day of the week the 14th was?
19 A. No. No.
20 Q. And the reason I ask you this is one of your clarifications that
21 you gave that came through the Prosecutor that involved changing the date
22 from the 13th to the 14th.
23 A. That may be the case. However, as far as I remember, in my last
24 statement from 2001 when I was here it was the 14th.
25 Q. Well, what happened between then and now that made you remember
1 the change of one day, a calendar date?
2 MS. MARCUS: Objection.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 MS. MARCUS: What the witness has just said is that when he was
5 here in 2001 he had already changed it to the 14th in his testimony. So
6 he's referring to his prior testimony where he correctly referred to the
7 14th. That's why the testimony got entered into evidence without any
8 clarification. So it's not between then and now that the time -- that
9 the date was corrected.
10 MR. ALARID: Well, then maybe I'll ask him that.
11 Q. What happened between giving your statement on here on the 20th
12 of January, 2001, and your testimony on -- in October of 2001? What
13 happened that would jog your memory to change a calendar day that you had
14 memorialised some time before?
15 A. Perhaps where the statement says the 13th it may have been the
16 result of a mistranslation. I don't know what could have happened. I
17 will remember that date, the 14th of June, for the rest of my life, just
18 as I remember my birth date.
19 MR. ALARID: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Cepic.
21 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I do have a lot of
22 questions, and maybe I will request additional time for this witness.
23 I'll try to do my best in a short period of time, of course.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead.
25 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. I have to address you by that number, not because I wish to but
5 because that's the rules.
6 A. No problem.
7 Q. Let me first introduce myself. My name is Djuro Cepic, and I
8 represent this gentleman, Sredoje Lukic, seated behind me. I'll kindly
9 ask you to help me clarify certain matters.
10 A. I'm here for that reason.
11 Q. Before I start putting any questions to you, let me tell you that
12 I truly understand the pain and the suffering you and your mother
13 experienced, and please accept the condolences both on my part and on the
14 part of the members of my team for the loss of your family members.
15 A. Thank you.
16 Q. Please listen to my questions carefully. Think them over before
17 you give me an answer, and please give me clear and concise, brief
18 answers so that we can complete this as soon as possible.
19 A. Fine.
20 Q. Sir, I put to you that my client, Mr. Sredoje Lukic, was not in
21 Visegrad on that day.
22 A. Yes, yes. Please go ahead.
23 Q. I put to you that he was not in Visegrad and that he did not take
24 part in that incident. Do you understand?
25 A. No. No, I don't understand. Nobody can. Nobody who was not
1 there can understand.
2 Q. I put it to you that this was the case of a mistaken identity,
3 and we will get to that later.
4 A. That's your business. You should try and see that through.
5 Q. Tell me, did you follow the start of this trial in the media,
6 over the radio, the TV, or the press?
7 A. No, no. I've had quite enough of this.
8 Q. I have to ask you this: Why did you refuse me the interview?
9 A. What's the need for it? You have the statements. Everything is
10 clear. If something is not clear to you, I'm here. I can explain it to
11 you all.
12 Q. In 1992 you were 13, just under 14, therefore, and you attended
13 the Prelovo primary school; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In the course of your earlier testimony and from what I was able
16 to read in your statements, you believed that those were Milan and
17 Sredoje Lukic according to the stories of others because you hadn't known
18 them earlier.
19 A. Yes, that's true. I said that I didn't know them before and that
20 I had heard this.
21 Q. Am I right if I say that in view of your age at the time most of
22 the information you received came from your mother, VG-18?
23 A. You are not right.
24 Q. Very well. Thank you. Did you spend the entire time with your
25 mother throughout the incident?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were VG-18 -- or, rather, VG-13 and VG-38 with you at the time?
3 A. I can't tell you. I don't have the necessary information.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus? Did you have a point, Ms. Marcus?
5 MS. MARCUS: I just wanted to say that the witness doesn't have
6 the pseudonyms in front of him. He only knows the pseudonym of his
8 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Give me a moment, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. They were with you at the time of -- when your valuables were
12 taken away and at the moment of --
13 A. Yes, all the time.
14 Q. Thank you. I would like to refer to Jasmina Vila, the late
15 Jasmina Vila, your relative.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would you agree with me that your mother had more precise and
18 reliable information, your mother VG-18, as to what had become of
19 Jasmina Vila or what had happened to Jasmina Vila before this incident?
20 A. Yes, I do agree. My mother was an adult.
21 Q. I respect my mother above anybody else as well. Now we're coming
22 to one area that is crucial to me. Do you want to have your statement
23 before you, or should I just put questions to you like this?
24 A. Yes, please, if we could have it.
25 MR. CEPIC: P74. 74. Page 4. In English and also in B/C/S.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Paragraph 3 in the Bosnian version, and
2 paragraph 2 in English. "One of them entered the kitchen and introduced
3 himself as Sredoje Lukic."
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you describe it for me? How was it that he introduced
7 A. Can I just be allowed to read this through? The question was how
8 he introduced himself.
9 Q. Yes. Did he come before you and say I'm Sredoje Lukic?
10 A. It wasn't just him who entered the house. Three of them did.
11 The people there knew them right away. I was at the far end of the
12 living-room and there were many people there.
13 Q. Can you give me the words with which he introduced himself? Did
14 he say, "People, my name is Sredoje Lukic"?
15 A. Well, a few people knew right away that it was Sredoje Lukic.
16 Q. You said clearly here he came and introduced himself. So you
17 said that he introduced himself. Did he use the following words: "My
18 name is Sredoje Lukic. Good day to you people"?
19 A. Yes. He said that as he got into the room, and I heard other
20 people say so later on, because this was a room full of people, and they
21 heard him say that, and that's how this whole thing started.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Witness. Are you saying that
23 Sredoje Lukic introduced himself by saying, "My name is Sredoje Lukic.
24 Good day to you people"?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I didn't quote his
1 words this way. This was upstairs. There were stairs there, and there
2 were people there who knew him by name.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't -- that he said expressly
5 those words --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did Sredoje Lukic say anything in your hearing
7 to identify himself?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you at some time come to the understanding
10 that that person was Sredoje Lukic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: And how did you arrive at that knowledge?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were people in the house, the
14 older ones, who knew him, and when they left they said, "That's the
15 policeman who works at -- in Visegrad." There were people there,
16 including elderly women, who knew him.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: They said, "That's the policeman." Did they go
18 further to identify the name of the police?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sredoje Lukic.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
21 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, your statement today is somewhat different
23 from what you said in your written statement. You were quite explicit
24 here and said, "One of them got into the kitchen and introduced himself
25 as Sredoje Lukic. He carried a sniper rifle and a camouflage uniform."
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. These are your words.
3 A. Sir, these are details that cannot be described, because the --
4 they were not entering that house --
5 MR. CEPIC: Could you scroll down in the English version, please.
6 A little bit more.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Is there a signature somewhere at the bottom
8 here, your signature?
9 A. Yes, there is.
10 Q. Thank you. Sir, when testifying before this honourable Tribunal,
11 your mother, VG-18, claimed that somebody entered the house and
12 introduced himself as Sredoje Lukic.
13 A. Well, why don't you put that question to her? She knows about
14 this better than I do.
15 Q. Does it sound a bit illogical to you to say -- for a person to
16 come into the house and say, "I introduce myself, my name is
17 Sredoje Lukic, and I will be doing this and that to you"?
18 A. Yes, of course it's illogical, but they were proud of that. They
19 prided themselves on it.
20 Q. Please help me identify the individual who introduced himself as
21 Sredoje Lukic.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Why not?
24 A. Well, how would I be able to help you? Can you explain it to me?
25 Q. Sir, I'm putting questions to you, and you're answering them.
1 A. Please go ahead. Fire away.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, it wasn't very clear to me what you
3 meant when you asked the witness to help you identify the individual who
4 introduced himself as Sredoje Lukic. What exactly did you mean by that?
5 MR. CEPIC: My questions and answers. My questions and answers
6 from witness.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I see.
8 MR. CEPIC: Only way. Only possible way, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead.
10 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Was there daylight in the house at that moment,
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. Were you able to see clearly the face of the person who
15 introduced himself as Sredoje Lukic?
16 A. I don't remember that either.
17 Q. How far away from -- were you at that point from your mother?
18 A. I was right by her side.
19 Q. How far away from you was the person who introduced himself as
20 Sredoje Lukic?
21 A. Two metres.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, we're going to take the break now.
23 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.44 a.m.
1 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, in the meantime we printed pseudonym
2 sheet, so with your leave, I'd like to -- to use it.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. May I continue?
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
6 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can we continue?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. We left off when this robbing took place in the afternoon. You
10 said that you are unable to make an identification. You told us that all
11 the time VG-13 and VG-18 were with you.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. VG-13 and VG-38. And, naturally, VG-18, your mother. How far
14 was your mother from you at the -- at that time?
15 A. She was sitting next to me.
16 Q. VG-13 and VG-18, how far were they at the time?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Were they close to you?
19 A. I don't know. There were many rooms. There was one room,
20 another room, there was a kitchen, and they were all full.
21 Q. Hasib Kurspahic, father of Huso Kurspahic.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where was he standing?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Can we then conclude that you have very poor memory of these
2 A. Yes. I can barely remember who was standing where. It was full
3 of people.
4 Q. Sir, did VG-13 perhaps confirm the identity of these men who
5 entered the house to you?
6 A. Twenty per cent of people confirmed that.
7 Q. I'm asking you about VG-13.
8 A. I don't know about VG-13. I wasn't with her. She was maybe in
9 some corner. There were 50 or 60 people altogether there.
10 Q. But among those people were both VG-13 and VG-38, yes or no?
11 A. How can I know that? I don't remember.
12 Q. You told me today that they were involved in the incident the
13 whole time and that they were close to you.
14 A. I didn't tell you that today. They were in the file with us.
15 They were in front of the Red Cross. They were in the house with us.
16 Maybe she left the room for five minutes to go to the toilet. Maybe she
17 went out for two minutes. She wasn't with me all the time so that I
18 could follow her movement. There were many people.
19 Q. Did you talk to her?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Am I right to say that you cannot provide us with any better
22 information about the appearance of Sredoje Lukic?
23 A. I said that Sredoje Lukic and Milan Lukic were there and a third
24 man whose identity I don't know.
25 Q. But you cannot give me any information about how they looked
2 A. Twenty per cent of the people --
3 Q. Sir, please listen carefully to my questions.
4 A. Twenty per cent of people knew them.
5 Q. Sir --
6 A. I'm giving you this information.
7 Q. I'm asking about your knowledge. I'm not asking you about what
8 other people knew.
9 A. But, sir, I listened to people who were older than me, and they
10 knew these men very well. I was a 14-year-old boy. I listened to what
11 my elders were telling me, and there were some elderly people who knew
12 him very well.
13 Q. Was Hasib Kurspahic one of them?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Can you tell me who searched the people and took their money and
16 their jewellery?
17 A. Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic were in charge of collecting money
18 and gold. The third man was searching people in another room, this third
19 man whom I don't know.
20 Q. Can you please explain how come that you changed this information
21 about the identity in your -- today's testimony?
22 A. What do you mean? What kind of change?
23 Q. Well, please look at the statement. In this paragraph here you
24 described Sredoje Lukic. You said that he had a sniper rifle on him.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Today, transcript page 23, line 13, you said that it was Milan
2 who had a sniper rifle.
3 A. Sir, these are all automatic weapons as far as I am familiar with
5 Q. You would agree with me that there is a significant difference
6 between an automatic rifle and a sniper rifle, would you?
7 A. But this is automatic weapons, sir.
8 Q. I kindly ask you to listen to my questions carefully.
9 A. Very well.
10 Q. Visually there's a big difference, isn't there?
11 MS. MARCUS: Objection.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. What is the objection?
13 MS. MARCUS: Counsel hasn't established that the witness would
14 have any basis of knowledge of these weapons, certainly at the time he
15 was 14.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
17 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we look carefully at
18 his statement, he said very explicitly that Sredoje Lukic had a sniper
19 rifle, so he is able to distinguish between the weapons.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed. Proceed.
21 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Did they have any hats?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. Can you at least remember who was taller and who was shorter?
25 A. Sredoje was older and Milan was about seven years younger as far
1 as I could judge by their appearance.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. He asked about their height. Can you
3 remember who was taller and who was shorter? He didn't ask about their
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I don't remember. I
6 don't remember.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Let's move on.
8 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. [Interpretation] VG-38 asserted that Sredoje was shorter than
10 Milan by five centimetres.
11 A. Where? In which statement is that?
12 Q. Transcript dated 2nd September 2008, lines 26, 27 --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the pages
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Marcus.
16 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, the witness has already given an answer
17 to this question, so if -- if counsel's proposing to repeat the same
18 question again about the height, the witness has already testified that
19 he doesn't remember.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree. He can't help you any more. Please
21 move on, Mr. Cepic.
22 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, your mother VG-18, described Sredoje Lukic
24 as someone who was retired at the time and that he was over 40 years of
25 age. As for Milan Lukic, she said that he was a younger person.
1 A. You have to ask her.
2 Q. You -- do you agree with that?
3 A. I think you have to ask her. Why -- why should I give you
4 answers on her behalf?
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, no. He's not asking you to answer on
6 behalf of your mother. What he's asking is whether you agree with your
7 mother's description that Sredoje was someone who had retired at that
8 time and that he was over 40 years of age.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I -- I can't remember that. I'm
11 not giving any descriptions. I'll let her do that.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move on.
13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, did any of these men have any mask or a
15 stocking over their face?
16 A. No, they didn't. Maybe there were some other persons outside of
17 the house. Maybe other witnesses can confirm that. As far as those
18 inside the house were concerned, I wasn't able to notice anything of the
20 Q. Do you perhaps remember while you were moving from the Memic
21 house to the Omeragic house who was the one who called the people to
22 leave the house?
23 A. I don't remember. Maybe it can be found in the statements but at
24 this moment I cannot remember.
25 Q. In this file while you were walking in the darkness from the
1 Memic house to the Omeragic house, the visibility was very poor, wasn't
3 A. Yes, but one could see things.
4 Q. This person who introduced himself as Sredoje, do you know where
5 he was standing?
6 A. In front of the house where we were set on fire.
7 Q. Can you describe him in this particular situation?
8 A. No, I cannot. I was a little bit late. I was among the last
9 people who entered the house. He patted me on the shoulder. Whether it
10 was him or Milan, there were two or three of them in front of the house.
11 Because I couldn't find my shoes, and he patted me on the shoulder.
12 Q. Within this particular situation would you be able to give us any
13 description, any details?
14 A. No, no, no. I enter the house very quickly. They were just
15 standing in front of the house. Would that be helpful? The house where
16 we were burned. And there were a couple of more soldiers in the dark.
17 Q. I'm not denying that the incident took place and your suffering.
18 A. Well, if this is of any help.
19 Q. I'm just asking you to help us with your answers to shed more
20 light on who was there and who really committed this.
21 The one that you believe was Sredoje Lukic who was standing in
22 front of the house and who patted you on the shoulder, did he wait for
23 the whole file to pass? So he was ahead of the column?
24 A. He was in front of the house, and the column was moving towards
25 him, towards the house.
1 Q. So he was waiting for the column in front of house?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. He didn't follow behind the column?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Sir, would you believe the words of VG-13?
6 A. What words?
7 MS. MARCUS: Objection. Your Honours, counsel continuously puts
8 the words of other witnesses to this witness. Now, I submit that it's an
9 inappropriate thing to ask this witness to judge the credibility of the
10 other witnesses. Rather, the assertions that they made should be put to
11 the witness. Their assertions, the factual assertions that were made can
12 be put to the witness but not the credibility of other witnesses.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: We won't allow the question. Put another
16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Q. Sir, are you able to give us any detail as to the description in
18 this situation when it was dark?
19 A. What -- what darkness? There was light in front of the house.
20 They had flashlights. Everything had been prepared in advance.
21 Q. Thank you. I'm just kindly asking you, and I'm asking you to
22 give me answers to the best of your recollection.
23 A. That's better.
24 Q. So according to what you said today, you're unable to give me any
25 better information about the person who introduced himself as
1 Sredoje Lukic or for whom other people said that he was Sredoje Lukic.
2 MS. MARCUS: Objection.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said what I said.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I will uphold it. Ask another question.
5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Q. Do you remember the name of any of these people who told us that
7 it was Sredoje Lukic, or you're unable to tell us that?
8 A. I'm telling you again those were the people who knew him. I
9 personally didn't know him. That's what I said in my statements.
10 Q. But you don't remember any specific person telling you that?
11 A. No, I don't.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me see whether I understand you, Witness.
13 You heard a number of persons saying that that was Sredoje Lukic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: You knew who those persons were?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I knew.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: But your position now is that you don't remember
18 their names. Is that so?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember their names,
20 that's true. We were afraid of these people while we were still in our
21 village before we moved out. We were afraid that they would come to our
22 village, too, because they went to other villages, took men away, set
23 houses on fire.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
25 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Who told you that Sredoje Lukic was working in
3 A. I may have heard it from someone in the house.
4 Q. When you mentioned that you had heard that this group was causing
5 incidents, did you hear about Sredoje back in April?
6 A. No, no, not at that time. Not in April.
7 Q. You testified today and you mentioned April.
8 A. I said I didn't know him in April. That was the time when the
9 Serbian army entered Visegrad.
10 Q. So the first information you had was on that night in
11 Pionirska Street.
12 A. On that day.
13 MR. CEPIC: It is missing that I said -- page 49, line 4 and 5,
14 my question I put the name of my client, Sredoje Lukic. Information
15 about Sredoje Lukic.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, just repeat the question.
17 MR. CEPIC: Yes, of course. Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. [Interpretation] So this information about Sredoje Lukic that we
19 are discussing today you heard for the first time on that day in
20 Pionirska Street, in the village of Koritnik?
21 A. No. We heard about them. We didn't see them until we left the
22 village. The whole group, Sredoje, Milan, and another four or five men
23 who are now walking freely around the town. There were not only these
25 Q. Sir, if you said that 20 per cent of the people knew that Sredoje
1 had worked in Belgrade or that you heard that he had been working in
2 Belgrade, how could then 20 per cent of people know Sredoje Lukic?
3 A. No. I didn't say that it was 20 per cent of the people who knew
4 that he had worked there. Twenty per cent of the people knew him, and
5 perhaps two of those people knew that piece of information, but the
6 people in general knew that he was a policeman.
7 Q. Sir, can you help us in any way in the identification, yes or no?
8 A. What else do I need to tell you?
9 MS. MARCUS: Objection. Perhaps counsel could specify exactly
10 what question he's asking.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Cepic, that's a very general and wide
12 and vague question. Be more specific.
13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I've been trying with a lot
14 of questions in that way, but all answers are negative up till now.
15 Thank you, Your Honour. No further questions for this witness.
16 [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. I have no more questions for
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination?
19 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honours.
20 Re-examination by Ms. Marcus:
21 Q. VG-84, at the time you say Sredoje Lukic and Milan Lukic entered
22 the Mimic house, what time of day was it?
23 A. It was around 1.00 or 2.00. It was definitely daytime.
24 Q. Later as you were made to walk from the Mimic house to the
25 Omeragic house, can you describe the visibility?
1 A. It was good. It was good. It wasn't very good, but it was
3 Q. Can you give some detail about why the visibility was good?
4 Where did the light come from?
5 A. There was a light bulb outside the house, and they all had
6 flashlight torches. Before they ordered us to move from the Memic to the
7 Omeragic house, they had -- they took their positions outside the house.
8 I don't know who ordered it, but they wanted to create as little noise as
9 possible. There was a creek there.
10 Q. You said there was a light in front of the house. Can you say
11 which house or which houses had lights in front of them?
12 A. I said that about the Omeragic house. I don't remember anything
13 about that in relation to the Memic house.
14 Q. Do you recall any lights on any other houses other than the Memic
15 and the Omeragic house?
16 A. Yes, there was some light, because there were other houses
17 further away, and the light was coming from those other houses.
18 Q. At the time you were in the Mimic house, when Mitar Vasiljevic
19 addressed you and the other detainees, did he suggest to you and the
20 others in your group that you would be safe in the Mimic house?
21 MR. CEPIC: Leading question, Your Honour.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. It is leading. You can't lead
24 in re-examination. Reformulate. Ask him what he said.
25 MS. MARCUS:
1 Q. VG-84, do you recall what Mitar Vasiljevic said to you when you
2 and the other detainees were in the Mimic house?
3 A. I do. I do. He told us that we were safe there, that nobody was
4 allowed to touch us, and that we would be spending the night there and
5 that on the following day at 12.00 we would be heading for Orlovo and
6 Kladanj. We would be leaving from the Red Cross building.
7 Q. And did that information make you and the others feel safer in
8 that house?
9 A. Yes, definitely.
10 Q. And was that one of the reasons that you and the others remained
11 in that house?
12 A. Well, we had to remain in the house. We had no where else to go,
14 Q. Would the presence of a police officer, who the group would have
15 known, contributed to your belief that you would be safe in that house?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
17 MR. CEPIC: Speculation, Your Honours, speculation. And what is
18 the base for this kind of question?
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think the witness must be able to say whether
20 the police officer being there would make him feel safer.
21 Would a police officer being there, Witness, make you feel any
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The presence of who? Which
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus.
1 MS. MARCUS:
2 Q. You testified earlier that to the knowledge of the people around
3 you, they informed you that this was Sredoje Lukic, and you learned from
4 them that he had been a police officer. So my question is: Would the
5 presence -- would the present of a police officer under those
6 circumstances have made you and the others feel safer?
7 A. Well, they didn't get come there to protect us. They came there
8 to take our valuables.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
10 MR. CEPIC: Misleading question, Your Honour. Completely
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic says it's leading. Ms. Marcus, do you
13 have anything further?
14 MS. MARCUS: No, sir, no further questions.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank
16 you for giving it. You may now leave.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
19 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber would like to find out how long you
21 expect to be with the witness Vasiljevic. You have already given us an
22 estimate. Will you be more than one day, a session lasting a day?
23 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. In fact, I think I will be
24 substantially less with Mr. Vasiljevic.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Less.
1 MR. GROOME: So it's clear, Your Honour, what my intention is to
2 do with Mr. Vasiljevic is not ask to him any follow-up questions but
3 simply to lay the foundation for admission of his prior testimony and
4 highlight some of the relevant portions. He testified for a very, very
5 long time about many issues and simply to highlight for the Chamber the
6 issues that are directly relevant for the Chamber here.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, any estimate of the time that you'll
8 spend in cross-examination?
9 MR. ALARID: That's sort of something that's still in
10 development, Your Honour. Just -- and it's because of this: Obviously
11 the Drina River is going to hinge a lot -- to a huge degree on
12 Mr. Vasiljevic. In the trial he testified and what we have are two
13 binders with about that much prior testimony of which we kind of have to
14 look at and digest. I'd like to think that I could really shorten it
15 because the points I'm trying to make will be relatively focused, but if
16 there's a lot of testimony, that's the kind of thing, especially
17 depending on the cooperative nature of the witness sometimes it goes
18 easy, sometimes it goes harder. But -- so I'm having a real hard time
19 estimating simply because the transcript of Vasiljevic is a long one.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
21 MR. CEPIC: My estimation is, Your Honour, at this moment less
22 than one hour.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: One hour. I see.
24 MR. CEPIC: But I have to keep reserve at this moment.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Thank you. No. The reason for asking is
1 that although this is primarily a matter for the Prosecution, the Chamber
2 would like to see the evidence of that witness concluded by Thursday. So
3 if -- if he were brought first thing on Wednesday and you were to spend
4 less than a day's session, then I believe we should be able to conclude
5 his evidence by the end of Thursday.
6 MR. GROOME: I believe that's entirely reasonable, Your Honour.
7 In fact my fear is that we'll run short. So I'm trying to make
8 arrangements to have additional witnesses.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. Groome. Well, have him ready
10 then for Wednesday, Wednesday morning.
11 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Oh, I understand we're sitting in the
13 afternoon, yes, on Wednesday.
14 Yes, the next witness.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, before this witness takes the oath
17 and puts on the headphones may I ask the Court for -- to have one hour
18 with this witness in my 92 ter examination? And the reason is this
19 witness is elderly and very fragile, and it might take a little bit
20 longer to get through what would not take as long with other witnesses.
21 So I would ask the Court's indulgence.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.
23 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-18
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may begin, Ms. Sartorio.
5 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour. This witness has been
6 granted protective measures --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Sartorio.
8 MS. SARTORIO: This witness has been granted protective measures
9 as to facial distortion. And I would like to ask the witness if you
10 could move closer to the microphone, please.
11 And as I stated, Your Honour, this witness is testifying pursuant
12 to Rule 92 ter as per the oral decision of this Court on the 1st of
13 September, 2008, permitting the Prosecution to introduce into evidence
14 her prior transcript and statements.
25 MS. SARTORIO:
1 Q. Witness, you don't have to read out the date. I'm just asking if
2 the date of your birth and the name that is on the sheet, if that is your
3 name and your date of birth. That's just yes or no.
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. SARTORIO: We ask that this pseudonym sheet be admitted in
7 evidence, Your Honour. Sorry, may the witness sign this paper, then we
8 will ask it be admitted in evidence.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will admit it.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P81, under seal, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic?
12 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, with your leave just to request
13 admission of pseudonym sheet which we used with Witness VG-84.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. If that hasn't been admitted then we will
15 admit it.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D10, under seal, Your Honours.
17 MS. SARTORIO: Now, Your Honours, I would ask the court officer's
18 assistance again in handing a pseudonym sheet for other witnesses that
19 this witness may be referring to.
20 Q. And, Madam Witness, what is going to be handed to you at this
21 time is a sheet of paper that has the name of some persons and their
22 pseudonym numbers, and I'm going to ask that if you want to refer to any
23 of these persons in your testimony that you refer to them only by the
24 number that has been assigned to them, and please refrain from mentioning
25 their names on the record as these witness also have protective measures.
1 A. 84?
2 Q. Do you understand what I've asked you to do, Witness, with regard
3 to if you mention these witnesses?
4 A. I understand. It's just I'm not sure if I'll be able to read
6 Q. Okay. Well, we'll just proceed and see how it goes.
7 Witness 18, how old are you?
8 A. Sixty-seven.
9 Q. And what is your highest level of education?
10 A. I completed four years of primary school in Jagodina.
11 Q. And in 1992, can you tell us in which municipality you were
13 A. Visegrad.
14 Q. Now I'm going to ask you some questions, madam, about prior
15 testimony and a prior statement that you gave to an ICTY investigator.
16 We're going to go over a couple of changes that you wish to make to the
17 testimony in the statement, so I'll be asking you question by question.
18 Did you testify in the Vasiljevic trial on the 8th of October,
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And since coming to The Hague this week, have you had an
22 opportunity to review this testimony in the Bosnian language?
23 A. Yes. And I always have it in my mind.
24 Q. Now, we discussed a couple of changes, and if -- with the Court's
25 indulgence I would like to refer to the page of the transcript and lead
1 the witness to some extent so that changes can be made. Thank you.
2 Now, in your transcript at e-court page 28, you say that you
3 were -- first you were in the house of Jusuf Memic. That's what it says
4 in your testimony. Do you wish to make a change to that?
5 A. Well, I don't know. It seems to me that we were in Mujo's house.
6 Therefore, his son's house, but I'm not sure. I believe that we were in
7 Mujo's house judging by some of the photographs of the children I was
8 able to see there, but I'm not certain.
9 Q. Can you tell us the last name of Mujo, please?
10 A. Memic.
11 Q. And do you know where Mujo Memic's house was in relation to
12 Jusuf Memic's house?
13 A. I do. I do, because that's where my teacher resided. She also
14 taught my children in Prelovo. I would go to her house to discuss with
15 her the absences from school of my children. That's how I know.
16 Q. Okay. Now, in your testimony at page 30 in e-court, you state
17 that --
18 MR. CEPIC: Excuse me.
19 MS. SARTORIO: Yes.
20 MR. CEPIC: I apologise, but it would be useful for us if we have
21 that page on our screens just to compare with our notes, please.
22 MS. SARTORIO: That's fine, Your Honour. I was trying to save
23 time, but if the court could please bring up -- excuse me. It's 65 ter
24 number 92. And it's e-court page 30.
25 May I just -- may I see the previous page, Your Honours, please,
1 and to scroll down? I'd like to see the page -- the actual page of the
2 transcript, if I may. No. This is the page, sorry. Thank you.
3 Q. At line 22 it begins, and if I may read it to the witness, your
4 testimony said: "Sredoje Lukic came with the people. He introduced
5 himself. I wouldn't have recognised him, but he introduced himself and
6 said he was Sredoje Lukic ..."
7 Now, could we move down a bit to the next page.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
9 MR. CEPIC: Could we have the number of page in Vasiljevic case?
10 MS. SARTORIO: That was 15 --
11 MR. CEPIC: -- 82. Thank you.
12 MS. SARTORIO: Now, could we go back to the bottom of 1582,
13 please, again. The bottom of this page and the top of the next page.
14 One moment, Your Honour.
15 We'll go back to 1582, Your Honours. We'll go back to 1582,
16 Your Honours.
17 Q. Where you say that Sredoje introduced himself to you, do you wish
18 to add anything to that statement?
19 A. Well, no. I mean, what else could I add? I didn't know why he
20 came there.
21 Q. How did you -- okay. Strike that. Other than the -- other than
22 the change that we just made with regard to the name of the Memic house,
23 is everything else in your testimony true?
24 A. Well, I don't know. If we do ever come across something we can
25 correct it, but I believe that it is true.
1 Q. And you did listen to your testimony in full, did you not?
2 A. I did.
3 Q. And as you listened to the testimony, everything rang true to you
4 when you listened to it; is that correct?
5 A. Well, no. I was mentioning Sredoje more than Milan, whereas
6 Milan was the first one in everything. Sredoje was a bit older than him.
7 Q. Okay. But, Witness --
8 MS. SARTORIO: There's an objection, I guess?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
10 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, just wrong interpretation in transcript.
11 Page 60, line 25, witness said, "Sredoje je bio starija osoba."
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Which being translated is what?
13 MR. CEPIC: Older than Milan, and it is -- but it is completely
14 different sense. That is my humble opinion, that she said clearly
15 Sredoje Lukic was older person or --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Isn't that what is in the transcript, that
17 Sredoje was a bit -- down here.
18 MS. SARTORIO: May I proceed, Your Honours? No. Sorry.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just ask the witness again.
21 MS. SARTORIO:
22 Q. As you listened to your testimony, even though you may wish to
23 add some things to your testimony, is everything in that testimony
25 A. Everything I said is true, but perhaps those who took statements,
1 when they printed them maybe they made some mistake, but I'm ready to
2 correct any statement I made if necessary. I am not here to tell lies,
3 and I am going to tell only the truth. And if I was nervous and made a
4 mistake, I'm not nervous here. I'm going to tell you the truth because
5 I'm talking about my people. They are also part of my people. I didn't
6 know them, and we had two religions in Eastern --
7 Q. Yes. Yes, Madam Witness, we'll get to that in a minute, but I'm
8 just asking you if there are any changes that you wish to make, any
9 changes meaning anything that is not correct in your prior testimony that
10 you listened to the other day.
11 A. I heard more about Sredoje than Milan. It should be the other
12 way around. Sredoje and these dates relating to this incident were not
13 congruent. I only remember it was the fourth day of the Bajram, and that
14 is correct. And as for other things, I'm not quite sure that they ...
15 Q. Other than those changes, if you were asked the same questions
16 today that were put to you in your former trial, would your answers be
17 substantively the same?
18 A. Whatever I know and whatever is true, that's what I'm going to
19 tell you. What I don't know I will not tell. I don't remember what I
20 said at the time. Whatever you asked me and if that is the truth, I will
21 repeat it here.
22 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, we ask that the prior testimony be
23 admitted in evidence.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P82, under seal, Your Honours.
1 MS. SARTORIO: Now we ask the court usher to bring up 65 ter
2 number 180.
3 Q. Now, Madam Witness, you remember giving a statement to a Tribunal
4 investigator on the 4th of February, 1998?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And again, you had a chance to review this statement, didn't you,
7 in your language when you came to The Hague?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And again, in your statement, which is on page 6 in both
10 versions, the Bosnian and English, you again mention the house of
11 Jusuf Memic. And we're going to correct that, is that correct, to say
12 Mujo Memic?
13 A. I don't know what the Court wants me. These are father and son
14 and that was the same household, but it's up to you to decide.
15 Q. I'm just asking if -- again, we have to make the change to your
16 statement and put it on the record, and you just told us --
17 A. I know that this was the house of Mujo Memic.
18 Q. Thank you. Is everything contained in your statement true and
19 accurate to the best of your knowledge?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And if you were asked the questions today that the investigator
22 asked you, would your answers be substantively the same?
23 A. Yes, they would.
24 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, we ask that statement be admitted in
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P83, under seal, Your Honours.
3 MS. SARTORIO:
4 Q. Now, Witness, your prior testimony and your statement have both
5 been admitted in evidence so that the Judges can read everything that you
6 have to say about the ordeal that you experienced so I'm not going to ask
7 you to repeat everything, but I'm going to ask you some questions.
8 Now, in your testimony and in your statement you have mentioned
9 two dates, the 14th of July and the 14th of June. Now, as you sit here
10 today, do you remember if this event happened in June or July?
11 A. I cannot tell you precisely. I know exactly, and I will remember
12 that until the day I die that it was the fourth day of our great holiday
13 Bajram and that it was a Sunday. As for the date, whether it was the
14 13th of this month or that month or the 14th, I really cannot tell you.
15 Please don't bother me with that. I know that it was the fourth day of
16 the Bajram.
17 Q. Now I would like to draw your attention to that date that is in
18 your mind and to the time of approximately 5.00 in the evening. Can you
19 tell us where you were?
20 A. We were in the house of Mujo Memic.
21 Q. When you say "we," who is "we"?
22 A. All my people. All my fellow villagers. Maybe with the
23 exception of two households, Avdo Kurspahic and Hasan Kurspahic who
24 had -- who had gone to visit their children in town, and the rest of my
25 people who had been living in this village up to that point, we were all
18 Q. And had you met any of these men before this evening?
19 A. No, no. I didn't. I didn't know them. I heard that he was on
20 the police force, I mean Sredoje. I didn't have any contact with the
21 police before. Whether he came to the village, I also don't know that.
22 Milan I had never seen before. And as for this neighbour allegedly from
23 Greben, I didn't know him and didn't see him before, that is to say until
24 the time when he ordered us to take our clothes off.
25 Q. Now, when they introduced themselves did you hear their voices
2 A. We heard them. There were men at the door of another room, and
3 we heard those surnames mentioned, but we didn't see them until they came
4 and told us to go to one room. When we entered the room I wasn't looking
5 at Sredoje or Milan. I just remember that these two surnames were
6 mentioned. But we were afraid to look at them, let alone to ask them who
7 they were.
8 Q. Now, when you -- you refer to surnames. What do you consider to
9 be the surname? Is it the first or the second name?
10 A. Theirs you mean?
11 Q. No, you mentioned in the transcript "surname." What is a
13 A. For example, Milan is the first name, Lukic is the second name.
14 Every person has two names, the first name and the last name.
15 Q. So when you -- you say you remember two surnames were mentioned.
16 Is that what you mean, two surnames were mentioned or two first names
17 were mentioned?
18 A. Two first names and two last names. I said two names and two
19 surnames, and I didn't know anything about the third man. That's why I'm
20 not saying anything about him. I didn't hear anything.
21 Q. So you heard their names being mentioned by other people in the
22 room. Is that what your testimony is?
23 A. No, no, no, no. I heard -- it was quiet when they appeared at
24 the door. It was quiet, and I heard personally about these two. And
25 for -- as for the third man, one person asked who this man is, and then
1 he said that he knew his father. I'm talking about the third man. And
2 for these two I heard it 100 per cent.
3 Q. Now, during the course of the evening, did you hear their names
4 being mentioned by anyone else in the room? Did you discuss these
6 A. Well, there was no point in discussing anything. We just talked
7 about this thing. I was lying there. I didn't go out. I just heard my
8 neighbour saying about the man from Greben, and he said, "How come he is
9 here?" Because this village is two kilometres away. "How come he is
10 here?" That's what we discussed, and he said that he should really be
11 ashamed, because all of us could -- we were old enough to be his mother
12 and he ordered us to strip naked.
13 Q. During the time period that these three men were at Memic house,
14 did you have an opportunity to see their faces?
15 A. Well, yes. Of course I did.
16 Q. And did you hear them speaking to each other?
17 A. I don't remember. I don't know.
18 Q. Did you hear them speaking in general to other occupants in the
20 A. Could be. They ordered us to do our job. I don't know whether
21 they talked to other people. We thought that we were doomed. I don't
22 know. Maybe they talked. I don't know. I wouldn't speculate about
23 anything that I know nothing about.
24 Q. My question, Madam Witness, is did you have an opportunity to
25 hear their voices during that time they were at the Memic house?
1 A. Yes. Yes. When they arrived, they said, "Give us cash and gold.
2 Put everything on the table." He took a knife out of his boot and said,
3 "This is what we are going to use if we find even the slightest coin on
4 anyone. We want all the money and the gold." This is what I heard.
5 Q. When you say he took a knife, can you tell us who "he" is?
6 A. I would say Milan. He was in the forefront. I'm not sure.
7 Sredoje was there, but it was Milan who did this.
8 Q. Now, how long did these men stay this time -- stay at the Memic
10 A. Until we gave them all the money and the jewellery. I had some
11 money on me. And my sons came to me and said, "Give them -- give it to
12 them, mother. They're going to kill us." And I gave all the money that
13 was intended for my children's education and for everything else. I
14 never thought about weapons. I was just taking care of my children.
15 They took, I don't know, all my jewellery and put it on the table. I
16 buried my gold in the garden. I gave them the money.
17 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness. My question -- my next question
18 is, though, after giving them the valuables, did other things happen in
19 the house?
20 A. As far as I can remember, I think it was Milan who said that we
21 will go to a room in twos and threes, that they would strip us naked. I
22 was the first next to the door, and I entered the room. This man whose
23 name I don't know was sitting on a chair. There was a rifle next to him.
24 Another two persons came into the room with me, and he told me to take my
25 clothes off. I took my blazer off and a sweater. He probably wanted to
1 search me to see whether there was any money or jewellery hidden. And
2 then he said, "Can you see this finger of mine? This is how I want to
3 see you." This was horrible. I took my blouse off and my underwear. It
4 just -- well, off. That was horrendous. That was worse than being
5 killed. I had lived with my husband for 40 years. I had three children
6 by him. I couldn't behave like that in front of him, in front of this
7 young man, and I was old enough to be his mother. And after that, I
8 don't remember how things went on, how I got dressed again. I heard my
9 boy crying. I thought that he was going to be killed.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 A. I don't remember anything else.
12 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Witness.
13 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, I've been told by my colleague who
14 does speak Bosnian that there was a word left out on the record, so I'm
15 going to ask the witness a question and --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead.
17 MS. SARTORIO:
18 Q. Madam Witness, when they were doing this to you or just before
19 they did this to you, did they call you any names or did they say
20 anything to you?
21 A. These two didn't, but the other one when we were taking our
22 clothes off he used to call us "balija." He asked about the whereabouts
23 of my husband. I told him that he was in Montenegro, that he went
24 through the woods. He called me "balija."
25 As for the other two, they didn't. Whether they entered this
1 room or not, I don't know. Some say that Milan did. I don't know. And
2 they were searching the men. No, no, not these two.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, can I -- how long did all of this take?
4 Can you just give us an approximate time that these men were in this
5 house with you?
6 A. I don't know. There were a lot of women there, and they all took
7 turns. After that I went to this room and laid down. The women were
8 ushered in twos or threes. They were also searching men. Perhaps one
9 hour and -- or one hour and a half. I didn't have a wristwatch. How can
10 I know the time.
11 Q. But during this time, was it you were in fear and were you
12 thinking about the circumstances and who was around?
13 A. Some other heard there, but I'm not going to talk about it
14 because I didn't see it with my eyes. One could hear something from
15 outside the house. I'm not here to speak about anything that I
16 personally didn't see or go through.
17 Q. Now, at some point these men left, and then did they return to
18 the house?
19 A. They collected the jewellery and the money and said, "We are
20 going now to spend it on food and drink." They got into the car in which
21 they had arrived, and when they were at the door Jasmina was next to me.
22 She was washing my face, and he said, "You, Vila, and you in the leather
23 jacket come out." She was a young woman, maybe 17 or 18.
24 Q. And who is -- who is he? You said, "He said, 'You, Vila, and you
25 in the leather jacket, come out.'" Who said that if you can recall?
1 A. Milan said that.
2 Q. And then after this event did they leave the house?
3 A. All the three of them went and these two women went with them. I
4 was lying on the ground. Jasmina came again, crouched next to me because
5 she was in my house at the time when we left. That was in Koritnik. And
6 she came again to wash my face. I was so ashamed to ask her what she was
7 told. She asked her sister-in-law, but I didn't hear what she replied.
8 Actually, she didn't say anything. She just averted her eyes. I don't
9 remember her -- telling her anything.
10 Q. Now, after the three men -- did you notice what -- anything about
11 the vehicle -- or did they come in a vehicle and, if so, did you notice
12 anything about the vehicle?
13 A. They came in a car, and they went away in a car. The women
14 didn't get into the car. I don't think so. I don't know.
15 Q. Did you hear the car leaving?
16 A. Yes. It was a very noisy car, as if it didn't have an exhaust
18 Q. Okay. Now, what did the occupants of this room do after the men
20 A. Whether they came before or later, two soldiers came. The men
21 were sitting up there, and they just said, "You and you, come out to bury
22 two dead bodies." Then again, "You and you, come out. There are two
23 bodies in the creek." And the four men went out with these men while two
24 went towards Nezuci and the other two went towards Babin Potok, that is
25 to say, to bury two corpses.
1 They came back. They were not maltreated. They said that they
2 had buried Safet, our vet, and his wife. And the body in Nezuci was
3 Alija, and my neighbour said you just couldn't go near him. He was full
4 of maggots.
5 Q. Thank you, Witness. When you were in the room at this time did
6 any of the people talk about what had happened with the men who were
7 there at the house earlier?
8 A. Yes, Edhem said, and I heard him say that, "Imagine these
9 bastards who came among their people." I heard him saying the full name
10 of this young man, who his parents were. I wasn't paying attention. I
11 just remember that he mentioned his nickname, Lalco. That's all I know.
12 Q. Was there any discussion about Milan and Sredoje Lukic during
13 this time?
14 A. No, no. People were afraid. Well, they said nicely, "We are not
15 going touch you. The following day you will be given buses to leave."
16 If they had been treating us fairly, maybe we would have gone our ways.
17 We wouldn't have had to go through what we did. We didn't want to
18 disperse, because there were people who were feeble and infirm. They
19 didn't maltreat us at all.
20 Q. Yes. Thank you, Witness. My question is, though, do you know if
21 anyone in the room with you recognised Milan and Sredoje, and by
22 knowing -- did anybody tell you that they knew who these men were?
23 A. Yes. Jasmina told me that it was Milan Lukic but not -- I didn't
24 hear anything about Sredoje. She said that it was Milan Lukic because
25 she lived in Musici by the main road, and probably they passed by. I'm
1 not going to go into that. Jasmina's mother can come here and she can
2 tell you all the details. She is alive, and she's faring better than I
3 am. I came here because my neighbours begged me to do so. I'm on
4 medication, but I think it's better for Jasmina's mother to come here and
5 tell you all the details.
6 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, some --
7 MS. SARTORIO: Is this the proper time to take the break,
8 Your Honour?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We adjourn.
10 --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.
12 MS. SARTORIO: May I proceed, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
14 MS. SARTORIO: Just for the record, Your Honour, we would like to
15 substitute the pseudonym sheet that contains the names and pseudonyms of
16 the witnesses that may be referred to by this witness. The letters -- we
17 had to make the letters larger so that the witness could see the names,
18 so may we make that substitution?
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
21 Q. Mrs. Witness -- sorry. Mrs. Witness, now I'd like to take you
22 back to the Memic house and later in the evening and ask you if anyone
23 returned to the house.
24 A. I don't understand the question.
25 Q. That probably is my fault. Later in the evening did anyone, any
1 of the men that you saw earlier in the day, come back to the house?
2 A. To Memic's?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. No.
5 Q. At some point did you leave the Memic house?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do you remember approximately what time that was?
8 A. 10.00, 10.30.
9 Q. Now, how is it that you came to leave the Memic house? Was there
10 something that happened that caused you to leave?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And what was that?
13 A. Well, we were sitting, the children were asleep. The same car
14 arrived as before, the one that arrived at 5.00 p.m., just before dark.
15 They got out of the car and outside the house, under the windows, a man
16 approached the door and told us that we should leave, that we were not
17 safe there, that Green Berets were arriving from up there and that we
18 should move over to the other house to be safer, that we should not take
19 our belongings with us, that we would be picking them up later.
20 Q. Now, when you say the same car arrived as before, how do you know
21 that it was the same car?
22 A. Well, I knew the car. We heard the sound. One of our neighbours
23 who lived by the road told us, "Now they'll kill us and burn us." That's
24 what she said. And even those of us who were a bit further away from her
25 overheard her say that.
1 Q. Now did you know who the soldier was who approached the door?
2 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. It must have been one of the
3 two, but I can't be precise, because as soon as they arrived the people
4 became upset. The children had to be woken. There were women among us
5 who had children aged 1 or 3, and there was a lot of noise all of a
6 sudden. People were protesting about having to move to the other house.
7 They said, "Why should we move to that other house?" I wouldn't be able
8 to tell you exactly.
9 One of the two did arrive. I knew by the sound of their voice
10 that it was the same ones who had been there before.
11 Q. And who were the -- who were those -- who were they? You have to
12 put that on the record and tell the Judges what you mean by "they." Who
13 were the same ones who had been there before? Sorry.
14 A. Well, who else but Sredoje and Milan. One of the two approached
15 the door only, but they were the only ones who knew that we were there.
16 They were the ones who left us there. By their voice, by the sound of
17 the car, and by the story that he told us politely, we knew who he was.
18 He wasn't one of us, but he was quite polite, and he told us that we had
19 to leave.
20 Q. And did any of the other persons in the house other than the
21 woman you just mentioned saying "They'll kill us and burn us," did anyone
22 say the names of those people? Did anyone talk about who these men were?
23 A. Yes. Yes. Everybody was shouting, "The Lukics. Here. The
24 Lukics are coming again." There is one lady who said, "Here, the Lukics
25 are coming over again. We're done for."
1 *Q. So then what happened next? Did you leave the house?
2 A. Yes, we did. I was among the last to leave. (redacted)
3 (redacted) so I was among the last to go down to that
4 house. They were on both sides in relation to us as we were moving to
5 the other house, and as we reached the door of the house there were
6 perhaps three or four of them milling around us. People were getting
7 into the house, and as soon as I heard those other women say --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. It's been brought to my
9 attention that there's a reference that should be redacted, or should we
10 be in closed session? Are you going to -- are you going to be on this
12 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, I think we should probably go into closed
13 session, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic?
15 MR. CEPIC: I think page 75, line 17, name, just to be redacted.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we saw that.
17 MS. SARTORIO: No, it's line 15, but I think she's going to be
18 talking about what happened, and she may be referring to this person.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session.
20 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.
22 MS. SARTORIO:
23 Q. And when -- and you say you left -- you left the Memic house.
24 You went to another house. Do you remember whose house that was?
25 A. I do. It was the house of Adem Omeragic, whose sister with her
1 daughter-in-law and two children came there to spend the night in that
2 house since we were supposed to take the bus the following morning, the
3 following day. I do remember that this was the house belonging to this
4 neighbour's brother.
5 Q. And how long did it take you to walk from the Memic house to this
6 second house?
7 A. Less than 20 metres.
8 Q. And did you see any of the men that were escorting the group?
9 A. Yes, we did, but we didn't dare to look directly at them. We
10 looked at their feet and made sure that we went to where we were told to
11 go. We didn't dare to watch them.
12 Q. Did they speak with you at all as you were walking?
13 A. No, not at all. They were making fun. And as I was the last one
14 to enter, he told me, "Get in, balija. What are you waiting for? Where
15 is Alija now to help you?"
16 Q. So this is -- when you say you were the last one to enter, are
17 you talking about entering the Omeragic house now?
18 A. Yes. Yes, precisely. I mean the Omeragic house. I was the last
19 one to enter the house or the last but one. Perhaps there was another
20 woman behind me. I know that there was no space in the room. It was so
21 full of people that I hesitated at the door, and he pushed me inside.
22 Q. You say "he," "he pushed me inside," and "he told me --"
23 A. A soldier. A soldier. I don't know who he was. I didn't look
24 him in the face.
25 Q. Did you recognise his voice?
1 A. But he was one of those who -- yes. It was those people who told
2 us to move. He was with us as we set out from the other house.
3 Q. And, Madam Witness, you have to tell us who "those" are. You
4 have to tell the Judges who "those" are.
5 A. Well, the Lukics, who else? I've said this so many times now.
6 Now, whether it was Milan or Sredoje, I didn't lift my head to see which
7 one was next to me. I didn't dare to. I was trying to make sure that I
8 know where I was heading rather than looking at who was it who was
9 pushing me ahead.
10 Q. But you heard the voice of the person?
11 A. Yes. Yes. Even now I remember that there was something pushing
12 me in the back. I don't know whether it was a rifle or something else,
13 but I do recall those words, "Where is Alija now to help you?"
14 Q. And was the person -- the voice that you heard say, "Where is
15 Alija now to help you," is that the voice of someone that you had seen
16 earlier in the Memic house?
17 MR. ALARID: Objection.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.
19 MR. ALARID: Objection.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.
21 MR. ALARID: Objection. Leading and unduly suggestive.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Next question, Ms. Sartorio. It was
24 MS. SARTORIO:
25 Q. The person who said, "Where is Alija now to help you," did you
1 recognise that voice?
2 A. Well, yes. It must have been one of the two who told us that,
3 one of those who came to the house, because he accompanied us all the
4 way. There were others on the other side, but this one was following us
5 to make sure that we all got there, and I was among the last ones, so he
6 was following me, and he was the one who said, "Where's Alija now to help
8 Q. And when you heard this, did you associate this voice with any
9 person --
10 MR. ALARID: Objection, leading.
11 MS. SARTORIO: I'm asking --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me hear the rest of the question.
13 MS. SARTORIO: That was the question. Did you associate this
14 voice with any person.
15 MR. ALARID: And I would say asked and answered at that point,
16 Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think that's leading.
18 Answer the question. Did you associate that voice with any
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. It was either Sredoje
21 or Milan. Who else could it have been? Yes. That was what they wanted
22 to do, to finish us off. I realised as I was coming to the house that
23 this is where we all meet our end.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: But can you say which of the two the voice
25 belonged to? You said it was either Milan or Sredoje.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say that. I didn't look
2 them in the face to see which one was saying those words. One of them
3 was following me, and most probably it was the one who came to the house
4 and that must have been Milan. But I didn't look him in the face. When
5 they were talking, I didn't dare to look up. I just proceeded on my way.
6 MS. SARTORIO:
7 Q. So now, Witness, please tell the Chamber after you got into the
8 second house, tell them what happened.
9 A. When I entered the house they closed the door. A burst of fire
10 was shot. The door was opened again and they said, "Listen, can you hear
11 the Green Berets shooting up there beyond Babin Potok?" They closed the
12 door again. The people inside were crying. They were upset. We knew
13 that they were either going to kill us all or burn us.
14 I turned toward the window, and as I reached the window I lost
15 control. There was my child there. I reached the window, and as the
16 door opened, a flame appeared as large as the door itself. I turned
17 toward the window trying to smash the pane to let some air in. There was
18 smoke that was choking me. I placed my left hand on my mouth, and I used
19 my right hand to smash at the window. I tried five or six times before
20 the windowpane was smashed.
21 I tried to go out that way, and I heard a grenade explode. There
22 was a sort of a mesh there that was on my way, and I had trouble going
23 through the window, but my child approached me from the back and pushed
24 me out of the window. I felt something wet on my hand. It was a bit
25 paralysed. My child pushed me out of the window and said, "Let's run
1 away, mom." I was unable to run, so he pulled me towards the creek, and
2 as he pulled me by the creek we got into it.
3 At that point there was light from a flashlight torch behind us,
4 but we managed to duck down, cross the creek and hide behind the tree.
5 They turned toward other individuals who were trying to run for their
7 It had been raining the whole day and night. We spent the night
8 by the creek and then went up where we found a safe place to hide. We
9 listened for -- we listened to the screams and moans for an hour or two.
10 We were by the creek, crouching one by the other.
11 We heard somebody coming up the creek. We were afraid that they
12 were looking for us, but it was one individual who managed to get away
13 and who went past us. We didn't dare shout to the person for fear that
14 we would be discovered.
15 The person went up the creek, and it was another individual who
16 managed to survive and flee the fire.
17 Q. Yes. Thank you. Could you tell us if you know that person and
18 any other persons who escaped the fire that night?
19 A. Yes, I know the person. Had they all managed to escape, I would
20 not be the only one to go back to my village, the only one alive.
21 Q. Can you give us the names of the persons that you know survived?
22 A. Well, I don't know. Let me see here.
23 Q. You're in closed session, so you can use the names.
24 A. Under number 13, and number 38, and number 84.
25 Q. And do you know many of the persons who perished in that fire
1 that night?
2 A. Of course. Of course I do. I had been living with them for 28
3 years. Of course I knew them. I was there when they were born, when
4 they were married. I know them all.
5 Q. Witness 18, can you tell the Chamber what impact this ordeal has
6 had on your life?
7 A. I cannot find the words to describe that. I'm already nearing my
8 end, but number 84 ...
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
15 MS. SARTORIO: Shall we proceed, Your Honour?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.
17 MS. SARTORIO:
18 Q. Witness, would you like to tell the Chamber what impact this
19 ordeal has had on your life?
20 A. It had impact in every possible way. I've become forgetful. My
21 nerves are at the end of their tethers. I'm restless. I suffer from
22 high blood pressure. Whenever I go to Visegrad or to that village of
23 mine, there are ladies calling me for a cup of coffee here and there. I
24 go over there, cry my heart out and then come back home. That's how I
25 feel. That's -- it's no way to feel that way.
1 Q. Now, Witness, I'd like to ask you, if you would, if you would
2 take a look around this courtroom and carefully look at everyone and tell
3 me if you recognise anyone in this courtroom other than myself and
4 Mr. Groome and Amir Zec. Could you do that for me?
5 A. Well, of course I do recognise. They are my people too. I
6 didn't come here to say things that are not true or to lie. I'm almost
7 70. Of course I can recognise them. They went to school with my
8 children. Milan might even be of the same age as my children. But I
9 have to. I have sworn that I would come here and speak the truth for all
10 those whose children perished, parents perished. Let me swear and let me
11 swear by number 84 that I didn't utter a single word that would not be
12 inaccurate, and I swear by this number 84 with whom I have been living
13 alone since the end the war.
14 Of course I know them. I know them both. I'm very sorry, but I
15 have to speak up because my village has remained deserted and empty.
16 There's nobody there. You can hear the birds chirping in the forest but
17 I have no one there.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Witness.
19 MS. SARTORIO: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I would just --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I would like to find out the significance of 84.
21 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, then we may have to go into private
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Into private session.
24 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
18 MS. SARTORIO:
19 Q. Madam, you did answer -- you talked a minute ago about knowing
20 some persons. You have to say on the record the names of these persons
21 and -- and describe them. This has to be on the record, if you would.
22 So please tell us who you recognise.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Mr. Alarid is on his feet.
24 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, we again would object to the unduly
25 suggestive nature of this identification.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: She has been asked to -- she has been asked to
3 say on record the names of the persons, and we hear the objection you
4 have made. The witness is to provide the answer.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot be more precise. It's
6 been so many years. Which is which? Which is Milan, which is Sredoje, I
7 can't do this. I only know that one of them is Milan and the other one
8 is Sredoje, but I can't be more precise than that. I can't. My eyesight
9 is very poor.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
11 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. One last question. May we bring up the
12 transcript that was admitted in evidence and -- that's Exhibit number 82,
13 Your Honours, and page 52 in e-court, please. It's page 1604 of the
15 Could you scroll down. Okay.
16 Q. At the bottom, you were asked about a person being called Mico or
18 We can go to the top of the next page, please.
19 Now, when you were asked about Mico or Milorad, do you know who
20 this person is that you were being asked about? Who is Mico or Milorad?
21 A. I know Mico from Lipovac [as interpreted]. His name is Milorad
22 or something like that -- or, rather, Milorad Lipovac is his name.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. I know him from Podgreben.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. SARTORIO: I have no further questions.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber has considered the condition of the
5 witness, who is obviously distressed, and we believe that we should
6 adjourn at this time and allow her to recompose herself over the weekend.
7 So we will adjourn now.
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I apologise, but I had notified the
9 legal officer earlier there is an important matter that I did want to
10 bring to the attention of the Chamber. If that would be possible to do
11 that perhaps after excusing the witness.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could we do this in private session,
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 1325-1326 redacted. Private session.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.30 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day
1 of September, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.
* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision dated 4 August 2011.