080908ED

Page 1330

1 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not working so we cannot

2 interpret.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

4 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: And before we begin the court deputy also has an

6 announcement to make.

7 THE REGISTRAR: I would like to make a correction to Friday's --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the registrar. The interpreters

9 can't interpret if they can't hear the speakers.

10 THE REGISTRAR: I would like to make a correction for Friday's

11 transcript. Exhibit P80 admitted under seal, the pseudonym sheet for the

12 witness, will become Exhibit P84 under seal. And 65 ter number 91 will

13 become Exhibit P85.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: So, Mr. Alarid, your turn to cross-examine.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-18 [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 MR. ALARID: And I still don't have a microphone, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: There seems to be a technical problem. We need

19 a break of five minutes, so we'll just stay here. I think we should just

20 stay for five minutes and exercise some patience. It's now working.

21 MR. ALARID: I believe mine's on, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Begin.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

24 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. VG-18. I apologise that we weren't able to

25 get to you on Friday and I know that it's hard for you probably to stay

Page 1331

1 here away from your home and family for this long, especially under such

2 stressful circumstances, and I apologise for keeping you.

3 We left a little early on Friday because this was so stressful

4 for you. Are you okay today? And, ma'am, I see that you're nodding, but

5 I don't think -- we do need to speak in the microphone for the

6 interpreter if we could.

7 A. I'll stick it out.

8 Q. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you. I appreciate your patience and

9 your strength with this.

10 Now, at first I'd like to question you about your earliest

11 statements that you gave after this incident. Can we talk about that

12 first?

13 A. Very well.

14 Q. Now, there's -- in our research in all the documents that the

15 Prosecution has given us, they gave us a statement that did not bear your

16 signature in any way, but it was published in Naser Oric's book related

17 to the genocide in Visegrad. Have you ever seen this book or heard of

18 this book?

19 A. I don't know about that. Wherever -- whatever doesn't bear my

20 signature I will not discuss that. I don't know.

21 Q. And that's fair enough, ma'am. I just note that it had a date of

22 interviews taken regarding the fire at Pionirska Street as 11 September

23 1992, and I just wonder if you remember being questioned about this

24 tragedy as early as September of that year.

25 A. I don't know whether there was anyone from Srebrenica. I don't

Page 1332

1 remember. I don't know.

2 Q. Now, you do recall giving a statement in the 17th of May, 1993,

3 to the security services in Tuzla?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what -- how did it come to be that you would give a statement

6 as a witness to this crime?

7 A. I got out of Srebrenica as an infirm person. I was exhausted.

8 It was in Banovici that they called me up, and I told them the story

9 about how I got there and where I got there from. I told them that I was

10 so exhausted when I reached Banovici that I was unable to get off the

11 truck myself. That's how it was. And they called those other people to

12 ask me about that story, though I was too exhausted to talk much.

13 Q. How long were you able to speak with them when you spoke with

14 these investigators in 1993? May 17th, to be specific.

15 A. Half an hour to an hour. I don't know exactly. I only gave them

16 the story -- an outline of the story, I was so exhausted. I don't know.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please approach the

18 microphones, please.

19 MR. ALARID:

20 Q. Ma'am, you need to sit closer to the microphone. The interpreter

21 is having a hard time hearing you.

22 Now, in your statement of 1993, you started out by speaking about

23 how the situation got worse and how it got started. Do you remember

24 that?

25 A. I remember everything. I will stop remembering only when I die.

Page 1333

1 That was where my life ended. My family and I no longer are alive, and I

2 will tell you everything I know.

3 Q. For how many generations did your family live in Koritnik?

4 A. I don't understand. Can you please explain your question. How

5 many generations? I got married into -- into that village. I didn't

6 live there before. I wouldn't be able to tell you that exactly.

7 Q. Well -- and a family name of the victims was many of the same

8 family name, the Kurspahic family, and maybe that's what I meant in terms

9 of how many generations that family had been there. Yes.

10 A. Oh, that. I understand. I understand. There were two, in my

11 household there were three, five, four. I only know that in the

12 Memisevic household there were two. And there was one Kurspahic who only

13 lived with his wife. Otherwise, the families numbered four, five, six

14 members. Two families had a home in Visegrad, and they went to join

15 their children over there earlier on and they survived. Other families

16 that resided in the village are no longer among the living.

17 Q. Thank you, ma'am. And I'm going to try and not interrupt you,

18 but we have to have a question and answer time, okay? So would it be

19 fair to say that the Kurspahic family had lived there for many, many

20 years going back several generations?

21 A. Well, yes, yes. For instance, my grand grandfather had five

22 sons, and they all had houses in the neighbourhood, yes.

23 Q. And I noticed that in your first statement you noted that there

24 were small villages or hamlets around your village, including a village

25 called Gavrilovici.

Page 1334

1 A. Our village was called Koritnik, and the Serb part of the village

2 was also called Koritnik. They were our neighbours. We lived together.

3 Q. So these -- all these names are just neighbourhoods or little

4 areas in the same village, to understand you?

5 A. Yes. It was called Koritnik, and Serbs and Muslims lived there.

6 There is Ubava, Greben, Prelovo. These are villages a bit further off.

7 In our village Muslims and Serbs lived together side by side.

8 Q. And would it be fair to say that you believe that the surrounding

9 villages, the Serbians received their ammunition and weapons from the JNA

10 when they were in town?

11 A. Yes. The Uzice Corps, yes.

12 Q. And at the same time the Uzice Corps took away the most basic

13 weapons of your family members and your people, even to hunt and feed

14 themselves?

15 A. Everything had been taken from us, but not many had weapons.

16 Maybe two or three men had hunting rifles. Had we known that they would

17 attack us, we would have tried and obtained weapons. As it was, we did

18 not. We did not think we had any need for them.

19 Q. Because you and your people lived a simple life of farming and

20 taking care of your families?

21 A. Farm work. My husband spent some five years in Austria on his

22 own. I stayed behind with children. We had fertile land, and together

23 with the Visegrad cooperative we had cows. I managed to earn my living

24 and school my children based on the milk the cows yielded.

25 Q. Now, in your statement of 1993, you indicated that your husband

Page 1335

1 saw your neighbour Dusan Grujic's cellar packed with ammunition and

2 rockets and grenades and other ammunition?

3 A. Gavrilovic.

4 Q. And is that Dragomir?

5 A. That house was closest to ours. He went over to Dusan's and was

6 able to see that. They were hiding it in the other room. Milana must

7 have entered the room and opened the door, and he saw that a corner of

8 the room had been full of arms. In the evening they brought over a small

9 TAM, and we could hear them load some of the weapons at night.

10 Q. And isn't it true that it was the SDS party that started the

11 extremism against Muslims?

12 A. Not against us. I don't want to go into politics. As far as our

13 Serbs were concerned, they did tell us that we had to leave, but it was

14 not their own initiative. Dragomir did come and threaten, but he did not

15 have a say-so. He was on the police force, but he wasn't the one issuing

16 orders.

17 As far as my neighbours are concerned and my family's concerned,

18 we were not mistreated. They only came on one occasion and told us that

19 we were supposed to surrender weapons or else be killed. I said that we

20 didn't have weapons. But it was just him. He was the one who came

21 asking for the weapons. Others did not mistreat me or my family. I

22 cannot speak for the rest of the village though. I avoided attending any

23 meetings, and I avoided being asked questions. I wanted to protect my

24 children. (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1336

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 As for this particular individual in terms of somebody coming

8 over to mistreat us, nothing of the sort happened.

9 Q. Now, isn't it true that Drago was a member of the Crisis Stab?

10 A. I didn't know anything about that. I didn't know about

11 such-and-such person being of that sort or another, of this ilk or

12 another. I didn't know of the SDS, of the staffs. I wasn't interested

13 in anything. They -- I didn't benefit from their existence in any way.

14 I'm not a politician.

15 Q. But in your 1993 statement you did talk about the politics, the

16 SDS, and the Crisis Stab, and you --

17 A. Well, fine. Of course, the whole world knew that there were

18 these parties, the SDA and SDS, that they were nationalist. If I did say

19 that they were nationalist, I didn't mean that I experienced that. I

20 lived on my homestead and was not interested in them. Even if it's

21 called the Serb Republic nowadays, I still go to see my house in

22 Visegrad. I'm not interested in that.

23 Q. And another police officer was involved in removing you from your

24 home, and that was Ilija Gavrilovic?

25 A. Well, he may have been there. I heard stories to that effect.

Page 1337

1 But he didn't tell me that I should leave. There was only one Radomir

2 Djuric who came to visit us and tell us that we ought to leave. I don't

3 know if he was on the military police or not.

4 Ilija, on the other hand, did not tell me anything. I can only

5 speak for myself and my child. I do not want to impute anything to

6 anyone that I am not certain of.

7 Q. And your village was attacked in very early April by the

8 Gavrilovics and other people?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Tell us about that.

11 A. Yes. I know about that. I went over to Dusan's, to his garage

12 to where his son lived, and that's where I spent the night because I did

13 not dare to sleep at home. My husband slept at our house, and in the

14 morning he came over and said, "Let's get away. All of them have left.

15 There are no Serbs around. They are about to attack us. Let us get out

16 of the village. They could have killed last night but they didn't, so we

17 should leave."

18 As I left down toward the Drina I heard shots fired upon our

19 village. We fled across the Drina and into a forest where we hid. I

20 left the keys to my home to my neighbours, and asked them to tend my

21 livestock.

22 Q. And it was in between this attack by these people on your village

23 and the tragedy with the fire that the Uzice Corps came into town. Isn't

24 that true?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 1338

1 Q. And do you remember being herded into the football stadium to

2 hear from a General Jovanovic?

3 A. Everything. I remember everything. I remember that Sepo came

4 over. He was talking over a megaphone telling us that we could go to

5 Visegrad and beyond if we wanted to. My husband was with me. We had

6 spent the night in the forest, and as we got out of the forest we came

7 across an army. It was the Uzice Corps. They escorted us to the station

8 in Visegrad.

9 Q. And isn't it true that General Jovanovic told the crowd of

10 Muslims that the White Eagles were under his control?

11 A. Well, of course he did. There were a lot of people gathered

12 there. You couldn't even hear well everything that he was saying because

13 of the crowd. He sent people around to go and search for those who were

14 hiding, and then he noticed us and got down and approached us to see what

15 had become of us.

16 Q. And isn't it true that you noticed White Eagles around the

17 stadium?

18 A. They were ordinary people. I don't know what they were called.

19 They were just regular soldiers with multicoloured uniforms. What they

20 were called, the White Eagles or the Uzice Corps, I don't know. They

21 were an army.

22 Q. And isn't it true that you heard from people coming to your

23 village that even as the Uzice Corps was in town, the White Eagles were

24 taking the young men, the young Muslim men, and making them gone missing?

25 A. Yes. Yes. From my village, and I can list them even now. They

Page 1339

1 were men aged 30, Hidajet Kurspahic, Osman Kurspahic, Fikret Kurspahic.

2 He was a soldier in Belgrade. Omer Kurspahic and his son Almir. He may

3 have been 12 years of age at the time. They all went missing and their

4 fate is still unknown, including this child aged 13.

5 Q. Now, I'd like to take you forward a little bit to around the 12th

6 of June, 1992. Do you remember a Serbian police officer named Radomir

7 Djuric?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Was he the first policeman to come to your town and tell you you

10 had to leave?

11 A. Well, some went to attend the negotiations in Prelovo. There was

12 one person there we called Micun. I don't know what his family name is.

13 Lipovac, I believe. He was the first one to come over with a couple of

14 soldiers wearing that Seselj's cockade on his head and asked, "Where is

15 your husband?" I told him that he had gone to tend the cattle. And then

16 I asked him, "Why do you need him -- what do you need him for?" Answer,

17 "I need him because I want him to go to Prelovo." I offered to go

18 instead and he said no, call Osman Kurspahic and Nedjo Memisevic. I want

19 them to go there because I have the time to.

20 I called the two men and they went to the local commune in

21 Prelovo.

22 Q. Now, also is that when Dragomir Gavrilovic came to your home as

23 well, the next -- was that the next day? He had asked about a

24 machine-gun and your husband's whereabouts, and he wanted to know where

25 the gun was.

Page 1340

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Q. Okay. And then -- so when was it that Ilija and Dragomir came to

14 the home and said everyone had to leave on the buses? Was that on the

15 13th?

16 A. Well, Radomir came from Loznica and said that we had to leave on

17 Sunday at 7.00, that we had to be by the bus station to go to Kladanj or

18 Olovo and that we were to take some food with us and two changes of

19 clothes and food for a day or whatever.

20 Q. And when you were walking from your homes to Visegrad, did you

21 encounter other police officers to escort you on your way?

22 A. Well, without your question can I say this first: When we set

23 off my husband didn't want to go with us because he knew -- in the

24 previous war his father told him that if you took to the woods you

25 survived. So he didn't want to go with us. We went to Dusan and told

Page 1341

1 him to tell him to go down with the others to the meeting point, and so

2 that's how we left, and he set off with us. He accompanied us to Greben,

3 to the ridge, but there were no buses so we had to wait there until

4 10.00, and then he went to call Micun, and Micun took us to Banja. I

5 don't know. Or Sase.

6 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honours, my case manager indicated there

7 was a point in there where she used her name. There may need to be a

8 redaction.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.

10 MR. ALARID:

11 Q. And what was the first time you saw Mitar Vasiljevic?

12 A. Well, I went with my children, of course, with my daughter. She

13 worked nearby, and so I went to the new hotel. But I didn't know him. I

14 didn't know him. I don't remember him. I know his -- Milojkas, he

15 worked with us, but I didn't know him until he came up there where we

16 were supposed to be put up.

17 Q. Now, in your statement of 1993 you made several corrections of

18 which we talked about -- or the Prosecutor talked about at the beginning

19 of Friday. What occurred in between 1998 and giving your testimony in

20 2001 that would cause you to remember things or clarify things?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Ms. Sartorio.

22 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I didn't ask this witness anything

23 about the 1993 statement, only about her statement to the ICTY

24 Prosecutors, so I think Mr. Alarid --

25 MR. ALARID: I'm simply looking at the proofing report filed on

Page 1342

1 Friday in this case and it notes that there were some corrections to the

2 17 May 1993 statement.

3 MS. SARTORIO: Well, okay, but your question was in your

4 statement of 1998 you made several corrections that the Prosecutor talked

5 about at the beginning of Friday, so I'm --

6 MR. ALARID: I'm sorry.

7 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.

8 MR. ALARID: I misspoke.

9 Q. I would like to focus first on your 1993 statement. You made

10 several corrections, having read that. Did you read your statement all

11 the way through, the 1993 one?

12 A. Well, yes. I don't know. I mix up Milan and whatever. Maybe I

13 did. But as far as adding more things, well, I didn't add anything if I

14 didn't leave anything out. Maybe I mixed their names up, because I don't

15 know who's who even now. So I might have mixed the two of them up. I

16 didn't know them from earlier on, and I hadn't seen them, so maybe I mixed

17 that up. They introduced themselves and said Mitar Vasiljevic and so on.

18 Q. Well, in just reading the statement of 1993, I noted that you

19 never mentioned Milan Lukic in the entire statement when I first read it.

20 A. Well- that’s- I give that- I mean- I apologise. Perhaps that is

21 the case- that I- I don’t know. Because- because always- your wits are

22 not- you get nervous- that’s perhaps how I… But to my mind, Milan was a

23 bit stouter than Sredoje- I don’t know.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have lost the interpretation.

25 MR. ALARID: Well, can we get the --

Page 1343

1 Q. Ma'am, you're going to need to repeat yourself only because the

2 interpretation did not come through, and so I could not hear your answer.

3 Can you -- can you say why you had made that mistake?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic?

5 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, unfortunately we haven't got translation

6 in B/C/S now.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, I see. Yes.

8 MR. CEPIC: Now we have it in B/C/S. Thank you. I apologise for

9 interrupting.

10 MR. ALARID:

11 Q. And, ma'am, what I had basically asked you is did you realise

12 that you never mentioned Milan Lukic in the entire statement that you gave

13 in 1993, and I think you gave an explanation as to why that was the case.

14 A. Well, I don't know. Really, I- I’m wondering myself how come I

15 didn't mention him, but the person doing the interpretation got something

16 wrong and the one questioning me. I don’t really know how come

17 everything I said was about Sredoje and that’s not how it was. So I

18 apologise, if you can accept that, and if not, well, I don’t know.

19 Because I am not always- sometimes I’m a bit nervous, somebody comes to

20 ask me something and- and I am all- it cannot come back and I have to do

21 it. That’s how it is maybe, I don’t know.

22 Q. And in your proofing statement you now made the change Mitar to

23 Milan.

24 A. I don't know about Mitar. I didn't see Mitar any more. He was

25 there once, but maybe he was with them, but I don't know. I didn't see

Page 1344

1 him. I don't really know.

2 Q. When did you stop seeing Mitar that evening?

3 A. Maybe I said who came. That might have been what I said in my

4 statement.

5 Q. Now, in -- also you made a correction that originally you thought

6 the person you knew as Sredoje came with a brother, and now you said in

7 your proofing statement that you know they are not brothers. How did you

8 come to that realisation between when you had testified earlier, given

9 statements earlier, to today?

10 A. Well, this is how I changed my statement: I perhaps thought that

11 they were brothers because they were both Lukic. That's why I thought

12 they were brothers. They were together.

13 Now, later on I learnt that they weren't brothers and that they

14 were cousins. Just like brothers, in fact, first cousins.

15 Q. How did you -- who told you that?

16 A. Well, I don't really know who told me. How should I know? I

17 heard it said, but I don't know. I can't say exactly who I heard it

18 from. So can I first say -- if I may be allowed to say first that

19 Sredoje's wife worked with my daughter, so she knows. So she found it

20 strange. They worked together, I know that, so I can state that now,

21 here and now.

22 Q. But on the night you gave -- or the time you gave the statement

23 in 1993, you believed they were brothers, even if you were mistaken?

24 And --

25 A. Well, all right.

Page 1345

1 Q. And you indicated that they're --

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. That the brother had a skinny cropped beard and now you say his

4 nickname was Lalco. But it sounded in the statement like one of the

5 people you thought to be Lukic had a beard.

6 A. No. This one, the one that was at Greben, at the ridge, had a

7 small beard. I didn't say that the others had beards, neither one of

8 them. One of them had this pointy face and chin, but as for the others,

9 I didn't say that about them. That's a mistake.

10 Q. Still, were they both clean-shaven then?

11 A. As far as I saw, yes, they did. How other people saw them, I

12 don't know. I didn't really look at them. I was just looking at my

13 child and seeing to my own affairs. I didn't look round at anyone else.

14 Q. And you also corrected it to say that neither Lukic ordered women

15 to strip naked. That was someone else.

16 A. Now, whether anybody ordered it or not, they said that we would

17 go into the room two by two, and Milan said that we would go into their

18 room and that they would strip us naked, take our clothes off. Now,

19 whether he ordered it or not, I don't know. When I was in the room and

20 took my clothes off, this young man -- well, it wasn't either one of

21 these. Now, whether they came in later on or not, I don't know. All I

22 do know is what I told you in the statement, what I went through and

23 experienced.

24 Q. Now, ma'am, when you say it was not either one of these two, is

25 that not either one of these two gentlemen sitting in court today?

Page 1346

1 A. Well, yes, yes, yes. When I was there, when I was over there

2 inside that room and when I came out, I came out in a terrible state. I

3 heard my child crying on the other side of the door, and I don't remember

4 anything. I don't know who dragged me in or dragged me out or whatever.

5 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honour, I'm going to move on but so I

6 don't forget, I would like to tender the statement of this witness given

7 in 17 May 1993, which has been uploaded as 1D10-0417, and the B/C/S

8 version has been uploaded as 1D10-0425.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

10 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as 1D33 under seal, Your Honours.

12 MR. ALARID:

13 Q. Now, you then next gave a statement in the 17th of January, 1995.

14 Do you remember that? Do you remember that, ma'am?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. ALARID: And there's a -- I apologise, Your Honour. On the

17 B/C/S version, of course the one signed by the witness, it's on the 27th

18 of January, whereas the English translation has the 17th of January, and

19 that must be a typographical error.

20 Q. Now, ma'am, did you have an opportunity to read your 1995

21 statement in advance of your testimony as well?

22 A. Yes. Why should I read it when I know everything, but yes, I did

23 read it.

24 Q. Well, I mean would it be fair to say that you memory should be

25 better closer to the incident that you were reporting on than, of course,

Page 1347

1 several years later?

2 A. I'll answer your question. I know everything. Yes, everything.

3 Q. Now, in your 1995 statement you stated that Dragomir Gavrilovic

4 also came to your village and threatened to kill you, and in that

5 statement you say that Milan Lukic was there and Sredoje Lukic?

6 A. No, no. Who said that? No, I never saw these people in my

7 village ever. No, I didn't say that, no.

8 Q. And I apologise, ma'am. I really only meant Dragomir Gavrilovic

9 from your village is now at the scene of the fire in your 1995 statement.

10 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I think if -- if counsel is going to

11 be questioning the witness about her prior statements perhaps he should

12 put them up on the screen and let her see the statement.

13 MR. ALARID: Certainly. Could we call up what's been uploaded as

14 1D10-0432, and the B/C/S version is 1D10-0436. And I'm going to go to

15 page 3 of the English version, focusing on the third paragraph. And it's

16 also going to be page 3 of the B/C/S version, second paragraph.

17 MS. SARTORIO: While this is coming on the screen I would just

18 ask the Court to ask Defence counsel to please put this in context of

19 date because the date is not mentioned on this page, if he would.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid, do that.

21 MR. ALARID: Well, the reference from page 2 is: "The following

22 day, 14 June 1994."

23 Q. And I'd like you to look down at your statement. I know it's a

24 little bit fuzzy from the age, but at the paragraph where it says "2300"

25 at the beginning of the first sentence. And I see Dragomir Gavrilovic's

Page 1348

1 name about three or four sentences down.

2 Have you had -- have you had a chance to read that?

3 A. Well, yes. Go ahead and ask your questions.

4 Q. Now, isn't it true that the electricity was out in the Memic

5 house? There was no electricity or lights?

6 A. There was some electricity from the other houses, because it was

7 one house next to another. So you could see. But I don't know, inside,

8 no, there wasn't. Well, I don't know. No, there wasn't.

9 Q. And the sentence starts out with someone told you basically to

10 leave your things and you could pick them up in the morning, and you

11 said, "Since it was dark I could not see the face of this man, but I

12 recognised the voices as those of Sredoje Lukic, who was in the company

13 of Milan Lukic and Dragomir Gavrilovic, who earlier in the village had

14 threatened to kill us."

15 A. Well, yes, yes. When they came, that person -- well, it was one

16 of the two. I didn't look. I can't tell you the details. There was

17 general panic and the house was full, full of us people. So I just

18 looked -- took care of my child. I didn't look around. But I heard from

19 others, and what I saw was when somebody in uniform came to the door, and

20 in the morning when they took the money and gold, judging by the voice,

21 but I wasn't close to see -- close by to say -- and I didn't say Dragomir

22 Gavrilovic. Well, he didn't come to the house. He was down there,

23 Dragomir Gavrilovic. He wasn't in the house. I don't exclude the

24 possibility of him being down there.

25 Q. And down there, down where, ma'am?

Page 1349

1 A. Where they said we had to go to Adem Omeragic's house.

2 Q. Now you say there was a man at the door in a uniform. Can you

3 describe the uniform?

4 A. It was a camouflage uniform, I think, but I really don't know, I

5 can't say for sure. There were a lot of people and I didn't look around.

6 I wasn't interested in uniforms, so don't bother me with that kind of

7 questioning.

8 Q. How much --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, the Prosecution had an hour and 15

10 minutes, and that period of time will be what is allotted to you, and it

11 will be up at 1.45 when we take the break.

12 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. And, ma'am, did you -- did you notice what Mitar Vasiljevic was

14 wearing that day?

15 A. Yes, I did. I did. I saw him arrive when we were there in front

16 of the house. He had a coat of some kind, a black one, and a hat, and a

17 feather in his hat. I didn't notice anything else. I didn't really

18 look, to tell you the truth.

19 Q. And the person that you believed to be Milan Lukic, what was he

20 wearing? Because -- because you'd never met him before that night;

21 correct?

22 A. On that day Mitar Vasiljevic put us up -- put us there. We

23 didn't see him, but when he came at 5.00 to take up the money and the

24 gold, before that time, before the time you just mentioned.

25 Q. And let's go to 5.00, then, and other people arrived. Can you

Page 1350

1 tell me what they are wearing?

2 A. Well, yes, yes. They came then, and then they came to tell us to

3 go down to that other house. You keep asking me that.

4 Q. No, ma'am. I just want you to go into your memory and describe

5 to me what these men were wearing. Now, you've explained Mitar

6 Vasiljevic. Now let's move on with other people.

7 A. The ones that came had automatics, nothing else. What else would

8 they have? I didn't see anything else.

9 Q. What kind of clothes did they have had on? And were they wearing

10 different clothes or were they wearing all the same clothes?

11 A. The two of them were wearing the same, but Mitar Vasiljevic

12 wasn't wearing a uniform at all.

13 Q. And do you still assert that Mitar Vasiljevic was there at 11.00

14 or midnight the night of the fire?

15 A. Well, they can say that. They didn't know we were there until

16 somebody told them. I never saw these guys, these young guys either on

17 the way or anything. So either Dragomir Gavrilovic told them, or

18 Vasiljevic told them, but --

19 Q. And these guys, what were they wearing? How many of them were

20 there?

21 A. The one that came to the door, of course he was in uniform. It

22 was probably one of the two of them, whether it was Milan or Sredoje.

23 Maybe I would know if I looked at them, but I didn't look at them, of

24 course because I was busy waking up my child, and I had problems with my

25 child who was ill. But judging by the voice, I recognised.

Page 1351

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, thank you.

2 MR. ALARID:

3 Q. Is it possible that different men or more men came than were

4 there earlier in the night when you were humiliated?

5 A. They came -- others came and took people off to dig trenches, the

6 victims. Four of our menfolk went, but they returned as well.

7 THE INTERPRETER: To dig graves. Interpreter's correction, to

8 dig graves.

9 MR. ALARID:

10 Q. I'm more interested in the soldiers that came around midnight and

11 asked you to move from one house to the other. I'm more interested in

12 how many came, how many, and what they were wearing.

13 A. I've just told you. There was one person in uniform. I saw

14 that, but I know nothing more. Judging by the voices, I thought it was

15 either Milan or Sredoje. Let's say Milan, that they had come. Now, how

16 many of them there were outside, I don't know, because only one of them

17 came in. I'm sure there were more of them outside because you could hear

18 them talking and laughing.

19 MR. ALARID: At this time, Your Honour, I would like to introduce

20 the January 1995 statements both in B/C/S and English that have already

21 been identified.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

23 THE REGISTRAR: They will be admitted as 1D34 under seal, Your

24 Honours.

25 MR. ALARID:

Page 1352

1 Q. And then the next time you gave a statement was the 4th of

2 February in 1998, and that was to the International Criminal Tribunal.

3 Do you remember that statement?

4 A. I do, yes.

5 Q. And do you recall how you came to be asked to give a statement

6 for the international court? Because clearly you were giving statements

7 to your local authorities before, but now you're dealing with the

8 international authorities.

9 A. I don't remember, truth to tell. I do remember giving

10 statements. I may have left something out or it can be corrected. I

11 don't know.

12 Q. Now, you did not correct the part of your 1998 statement that

13 said that you saw many White Eagles there at the stadium, and you stated

14 in there that you believed that the White Eagles and the Uzice Corps were

15 the same unit. Isn't that true?

16 A. I don't know if they were the same unit or not. How should I

17 know who the White Eagles or the Uzice Corps were? I only knew that they

18 were an army. Where they had come from, if they were Serbs -- please

19 don't go on bothering me with these questions.

20 Q. I hope to --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll just ask you to be patient, Witness, and

22 we'll finish with your evidence shortly.

23 MR. ALARID:

24 Q. And, yes, ma'am, I'm only going to ask you a few more questions,

25 okay?

Page 1353

1 Now, in the proofing notes that were filed with this case, in

2 your statement originally you stated that Milan Lukic was about 35 years

3 old. That is what she thought at the time.

4 Was the age of Milan Lukic discussed in the proofing session?

5 A. I don't know. By God I don't know. What I said about the age

6 that he had, I stand by that. I probably judged his age by what I saw,

7 on the basis of his appearance at the time. This is something that I

8 said, and they might have asked me to give his age roughly, I don't know.

9 Q. Now, the person that you believed to be Milan Lukic, can you tell

10 me what he was wearing?

11 A. Just as every other soldier. He was no different from others.

12 He had boots on.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear Mr. Cepic.

14 MR. CEPIC: I apologise for interrupting but we missed something

15 in the transcript. Page 24, line 24. The witness explained that she

16 didn't know the age of Sredoje Lukic. We can clarify with additional

17 questions.

18 MR. ALARID: I'll clarify if you'd like, Djuro, because that was

19 my next question.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

21 MR. ALARID:

22 Q. And, ma'am, in your statement the person that you had believed to

23 be Sredoje Lukic you thought was 40 years old at the time. Isn't that

24 true?

25 A. When I was giving statements on this issue, they said that it

Page 1354

1 didn't matter exactly what his age was, that I should give the

2 approximate age, and I did so. I wasn't there when they were born to

3 know their exact age. That's it.

4 Q. Were they wearing anything on their heads?

5 A. I didn't see. I think that they had those military caps. Maybe

6 they had them behind their belts, but I did seem to recall them not

7 having anything on their heads. I don't know.

8 Q. Now, in your statement you believed that Dragomir Gavrilovic was

9 on duty that night. Do you mean as a police officer?

10 A. Yes. Yes. As we were on the move, my husband went over to ask

11 Dusan to accompany us on our way. Dusan said, "But you're safe." So I

12 know that he worked that evening. I'm not sure whether he was on duty

13 when he was -- during the night. I only know about when my husband went

14 over to ask him to escort us.

15 Q. And you also felt he knew where you and your family was that

16 night; correct?

17 A. Do you mean at my house or down there when we got there? I

18 didn't understand your question.

19 Q. Down there at the Memic house.

20 A. Well, of course he knew. When we were just below our village,

21 there was our neighbour Hamizalija, that he got there and then went to

22 town together with Ilija. He took a car and he waved out of the car

23 towards us that we should go down there, and the other one was telling

24 him to stop waving to us.

25 Q. And so it was like he knew where you had to go before you were

Page 1355

1 even told to go there?

2 A. I don't know that he knew that. They should be the ones to

3 investigate that. First of all, there was no bus waiting for us there at

4 7.00 as it should have been. Second, did he know about where they were

5 taking us? Did he tell them to take us there and do to us what they did?

6 I don't know. As soon as I realised that no buses were forthcoming, I

7 knew that something was brewing. I mean, this isn't any sort of

8 information that I got. I simply felt this when I saw that no buses

9 arrived, I realised that they were lying us to. The man from Loznica, he

10 said that there would be a bus waiting for us and that even our police

11 force would be escorting us to our destination to make sure that we are

12 safe.

13 Now, these men should be the ones to investigate who it was who

14 ordered them to do that to us. I don't know.

15 Q. And so wouldn't it be fair to say that the people that profited

16 the most from you leaving your village, the people that took your land

17 afterwards might be the ones that also planned your exodus?

18 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I object. It calls for speculation.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you've --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: You've also asked two questions.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. I can't say

23 anything about that.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move on. She can't answer the question.

25 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, the 1998 statement was already

Page 1356

1 introduced as P83, and at this point in time we -- but we would like to

2 introduce the proofing notes. 1D10-1626.

3 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I object. The proofing notes are

4 notes from the attorneys, the attorney's recollection of notes that the

5 attorney made at the proofing session. These were not read by the

6 witness. They're not signed by the witness. They're attorney notes.

7 They're not evidence, notes that are passed along to the Defence as a

8 courtesy. They're not evidence, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.

10 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I think -- you know, part of the

11 problems with 92 ter and these large statements coming in with only the

12 right to cross-examine is some of the corrections are coming from these

13 meetings, and one thing that I think is going to be relevant over time

14 and if we have to make it part of a submission as opposed to evidence and

15 put it in an annex, maybe that's the way to move the point, but all these

16 proofing statements are causing minor shifts in the testimony either by

17 name, description, or date, and I think that that's going to become

18 apparent over the course of time. And like I said, I think the witness

19 has already testified to some of these factors of which may speak for

20 themselves but obviously the typewritten English is a little sometimes

21 maybe more on point than the testimony we've gotten, since the witness

22 tends to answer in the narrative.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see Mr. Groome is on his feet. What are these

24 proofing notes? How are they made?

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, they're generated, Your Honour, when a

Page 1357

1 witness comes to testify in The Hague. And in preparation for their

2 testimony the attorneys provide them with their older statements and may

3 ask them additional questions. When they provide information which is

4 not contained in their previous statements, it's the Prosecutor's

5 position that we should be disclosing this, and the mechanism that we use

6 for disclosing anything in addition that the witness has provided or

7 anything that may be different is the proofing note.

8 I would very much oppose that it is given the same status as a

9 witness statement, but may I make a suggestion with respect to how it's

10 been dealt with in other cases, and perhaps it might be a way that it be

11 dealt with here.

12 I believe the matter that's contained in the proofing note could

13 be put to the witness. Did you not say yesterday or whatever date's on

14 the proofing note, did you not say to the Prosecutor X, Y, and Z.

15 Depending what the witness says, the Prosecution afterward would be

16 willing to enter into a stipulation or an agreement that on the date

17 indicated in the proofing note, that was in fact said to the Prosecutor

18 handling the case, and that way we would avoid giving these proofing --

19 these notes which are essentially notes generated by an attorney and

20 attributing them to the witness but still Mr. Cepic and Mr. Alarid would

21 have the benefit of evidence on the record that the Prosecution agrees

22 that the witness did make such a statement the day or whatever day's

23 indicated on the proofing note.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, my own mind isn't made up on it, but my

Page 1358

1 brother and my sister are against its admission, so we won't admit it.

2 MR. ALARID: Well, maybe we could revisit it, Your Honour, as

3 long as we have the -- as long as we have the proofing note uploaded, we

4 might be able to make a further submission at the end. It's just

5 sometimes difficult to cross-examine the witness in this way, especially

6 since there are so many statements that have come in. It's extremely

7 difficult to cross-examine the statements when these witnesses are, one,

8 so stressed over their testimony and their answers tend to be narrative.

9 This does indicate that there are these minor changes that I think

10 doesn't go to the admissibility but to the weight of the evidence. I

11 think what it really is going to hinge on is the weight you give it.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move only. Let's move on, Mr. Alarid.

13 I've already given the ruling.

14 MR. ALARID: Then I have no further questions at this time.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Ms. Sartorio -- sorry, I mean

16 Mr. Cepic.

17 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I do have some questions for

18 this witness.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You are allowed to cross-examine.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, good afternoon.

22 A. Good afternoon.

23 Q. Let me first introduce myself to you. My name is Djuro Cepic,

24 and I represent the Defence for Sredoje Lukic.

25 A. Go ahead.

Page 1359

1 Q. Can you hear me?

2 A. Yes, I can hear everything.

3 Q. Before I put my first question to you, let me tell you this: I

4 understand the pain and the suffering your son and you experienced during

5 this incident. On behalf of my team and in my name, I wish to express my

6 sympathy for what you and your son have suffered during that incident.

7 Please listen to my questions carefully so that we can go through

8 them quickly.

9 Can you please repeat your answer? It was not recorded in the

10 transcript. Do you understand what I said to you so far?

11 A. Can you please repeat?

12 Q. I represent the Defence for Sredoje Lukic.

13 A. I know that. That I know. I understand everything. Please go

14 ahead with your questions.

15 Q. Thank you. Madam, I put it to you that Sredoje Lukic, who is

16 seated in this courtroom here today, did not take part in this incident

17 because on that day he was a long way away from Visegrad. Do you

18 understand?

19 A. No, I don't. I don't understand that. That's not true at all.

20 I have not come here at the age of 67 to tell lies or to impute things

21 that the person has not done.

22 Q. Thank you for your answer. Your child, VG-84, was it with you

23 throughout the incident?

24 A. Yes, throughout the war, and it's still with me now.

25 Q. Were VG-13 and VG-38 with you throughout the incident, at all

Page 1360

1 times?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Hasib Kurspahic was there with you as well, was he not?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Following this incident, at a later date, you, your son, VG-84,

6 and Edhem Kurspahic were refugees in Srebrenica, were you not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You'll agree with me that neither your son, VG-84, nor Edhem

9 Kurspahic, nor you knew Sredoje Lukic before this incident?

10 A. No, no. I wouldn't even know them today. Just -- if they had

11 not introduced themselves to me, if they had not said that they were

12 Milan or Sredoje Lukic. I would not be able to tell you about him --

13 about them. And this is true for everything else.

14 Q. I understand. Edhem Kurspahic and your son didn't know who is

15 who before this incident, before these men introduced themselves?

16 A. Edhem knew only Lalco, that he was… he told us that this was him. He

17 said, how come that thug joined ranks with them. He used to plough his land…

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Sartorio.

19 MS. SARTORIO: I was going object to the question asking what

20 other people knew, if -- I guess he could lay a foundation whether she

21 knows whether they knew or not. The question was Edhem Kurspahic and

22 your son didn't know who is who before this incident. I'm not sure she

23 can speak for them. It's a speculative -- it calls for a speculative

24 answer.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, can you answer the question whether

Page 1361

1 Edhem Kurspahic and your son didn't know who before the incident?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't know them before. They

3 got to know them, just as I did, when they came to Mujo Memic's house and

4 introduced themselves to us. Well, I didn't know about Edhem, but my son

5 didn't know them. How could he have known them? There's no speculation

6 in that, I'm sure. He definitely did not know them.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, move on.

8 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, not all of your words were interpreted.

10 You said that Edhem only recognised Lalco. Did you not?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And the others he didn't know?

13 A. Well, for the others he knew him just as I did, when they

14 introduced themselves, and this is true for my son.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. CEPIC: Could I have in e-court system Exhibit number P83,

17 seventh page in B/C/S and seventh page in English, please.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, let us look at your 1998 statement

19 briefly. This is a statement you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor.

20 You are the same age as my mother, and she has quite poor

21 eyesight. Are you able to read what you can see on the screen here?

22 A. I can't make out what I can see on the screen. I don't

23 understand that.

24 Q. Do you want me to read this out to you, and you can then just

25 look and see if this is exactly what it says?

Page 1362

1 A. Yes. I'll hear what you have to say and then I'll tell you if

2 it's true.

3 Q. In paragraph two it says, line two: "As they got into the house

4 they were Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and Laco. Sredoje Lukic said that

5 he was Sredoje Lukic." "The other two were recognised by other people in

6 the room."

7 Do you recall this part your statement?

8 A. I said I know at all times that they had introduced themselves as

9 Sredoje and Milan. I have nothing else to say.

10 MR. CEPIC: Could we have P82. In e-court system page 29. This

11 is the transcript of testimony of this witness in the case against Mitar

12 Vasiljevic, page number 1581.

13 I need bottom of the page, from 19th line. Thank you.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, this is the transcript of your testimony

15 in the Mitar Vasiljevic case. Colleague Groome asked us, starting on

16 line 19: "I'm asking you about the man that came to the house after

17 Mitar Vasiljevic gave you the certificate. How many men came to the

18 house at that time?" Your answer was: "People came. Sredoje Lukic came

19 with the people. He introduced himself. I wouldn't have recognised him,

20 but he introduced himself ..."

21 Now, I'd like to know the following, madam: During your

22 testimony on Friday in answer to the Prosecutor's question, you gave a

23 statement that was noticeably different on this particular issue, and you

24 said that --

25 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour.

Page 1363

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Sartorio is on her feet.

2 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, may we see the question that was put

3 to the witness on Friday, please?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: And the answer too.

5 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, please.

6 MR. CEPIC: I have to find just this part of the transcript from

7 Friday, which is inclusion with -- in the previous testimony. May I

8 complete the question?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you may complete it, but for our purposes

10 Ms. Sartorio I think is correct. It would be very helpful to see the

11 question that was put on Friday and the answer which you say was

12 noticeably different.

13 MR. ALARID: Yes, of course. The page number is 1303, lines from

14 8 to 17th. If it's possible to have this page in front us.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the age of technology it should.

16 MR. CEPIC: 1303, please. Yes, thank you very much.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I have some assistance with my screen?

18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would just note that it is the time

19 that you had said you wanted to break. If there's a technical problem,

20 perhaps would it be wise to --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll take the adjournment now.

22 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, please continue.

25 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1364

1 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, I left off looking at your transcript of

2 Friday, page 1303, and with regards to this, who introduced himself or

3 whatever, you said on line 13: "They came. Milan Lukic said that his

4 name was Milan Lukic, and the other one said that he was Sredoje Lukic.

5 As for the third one, I didn't hear anything until they had gone."

6 Madam, I'm asking you now, did somebody perhaps tell you what you

7 were supposed to say before this court here today when testifying? Did

8 they suggest anything?

9 A. I am testifying to the best of my recollections everything that I

10 lived through. I gave statements about what I had lived through and

11 experienced.

12 MR. CEPIC: Can we have P82, page in e-court system 70, 7-0. It

13 is the page 1622 from the Vasiljevic trial. Let me see the page number

14 in the upper corner. Thank you. Could you scroll down, please.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, my colleague Mr. Domazet asked you a

16 question, and your answer was as follows, this was in a previous trial,

17 the trial of Mitar Vasiljevic: "I wouldn't know Mitar either had he not

18 said who he was. I wouldn't have known him either, been able to

19 recognise him. And I would have said the same about him as I did about

20 the they other men. I didn't know them."

21 And then line 20 where you say: "I didn't know them. This Milan

22 came and said that he was Sredoje Lukic and that is how I know."

23 And that's lines 20 and 21 of the transcript.

24 Now, what I'm interested in is this: Did Milan Lukic say that he

25 was Sredoje Lukic, or did he indicate, point to somebody else, point to

Page 1365

1 another man and introduced that man to the other people and said, "This

2 man is Sredoje Lukic"? Which was it?

3 A. Well, how are you asking me that? I've said any number of times

4 that I was in a group of people and that I just heard who said what. I

5 didn't look around who was Milan, who was Sredoje. So I'm looking at

6 them now and I don't really know. I can't say. I can't recognise which

7 is which or who is who. I just heard people saying in that group of

8 people that one of these men was Milan Lukic and that the other was

9 Sredoje Lukic, and had they not introduced themselves, well, I wouldn't

10 have even have known their names, but they gave their names themselves.

11 So don't tire me with that any longer. I'm not a fortune-teller to know

12 whether this one's Milan and that one's Sredoje.

13 Q. Yes. Thank you. I understand perfectly, madam, and I understand

14 the pain and suffering you must be feeling. I'd just like you to help me

15 out so we can clarify things to the best of your recollections, of

16 course.

17 Can you remember the moment when a person introduced themselves

18 in the house and said, "I am Sredoje Lukic"? Can you remember that

19 moment?

20 A. Well, of course I can. We've just talked about it. Of course.

21 How wouldn't I be able to remember? You just asked me and I answered.

22 Q. Thank you. I heard the testimony of VG-38, and he said that that

23 Sredoje Lukic, that man, Sredoje Lukic, was lower in height than --

24 shorter in height than Milan Lukic, that he was five centimetres shorter,

25 in fact.

Page 1366

1 MS. SARTORIO: I object, Your Honour. Is there a question before

2 the witness?

3 MR. CEPIC: I'm just confronting the person. Could I complete

4 the question, please?

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there anything to be redacted, Prosecutor?

16 MS. SARTORIO: My colleague who does speak Bosnian said she did

17 mention the name of one of the protected witnesses, but it's not in our

18 English version. It doesn't -- it doesn't show up in the English

19 transcript. It was just heard in the Bosnian. Yes. It was around line

20 37, I mean page 37, line 20, 20 to 24. Somewhere in there was the name

21 of a person mentioned.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. The court deputy will deal with that.

23 Continue, Mr. Cepic.

24 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we have page from

25 Friday 1304, 1304 page. Thank you. Scroll up a little bit just to see

Page 1367

1 the last of previous page. Thank you. Thank you.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Lines 4 and 5. You said that you weren't

3 looking towards Sredoje and Milan, weren't looking at them. May I then

4 conclude that you weren't looking towards that man when he introduced

5 himself?

6 A. Perhaps I would have looked had I been nearby, but I was in the

7 room. They went into the general sitting area first. I just heard it.

8 Q. So you didn't actually see him when he introduced himself. Isn't

9 that right?

10 A. No, I didn't see him, but when we went into another room, we all

11 had to go to this other room, then I saw them, but I didn't know who was

12 who.

13 Q. Well, when you saw him then, I'd like to hear some details about

14 what that person looked like.

15 MR. CEPIC: Could we have 1D33 in the system of e-court.

16 Q. [Interpretation] I'll try and remind you by using your previous

17 statements when describing that person as to have as much detail as

18 possible.

19 Madam, this is the statement that my colleague Alarid asked you

20 about. It was given on the 17th of May, 1993, to the state security

21 sector, Tuzla.

22 MR. CEPIC: Could we have page 5 bottom of the page, and in B/C/S

23 fourth page, also bottom of the page.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Can you see your signature there on that

25 statement, madam?

Page 1368

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. So just up above the signature it says, and I'll read

3 it out. Can you see it?

4 A. Well, not really, no.

5 Q. I'll read it out then. "At around 1700 hours, Sredoje Lukic came

6 to the house, a retired policeman, as well as his brother and two other

7 men."

8 Madam, I'm interested in knowing the following: Where did you

9 get the information that Sredoje Lukic was retired at the time? Who

10 provided you with that information?

11 A. I didn't know about that, but I heard stories going round that he

12 was in the police. His father told us with Huso. I know that the other

13 one was a little shorter and darker skinned, whereas Milan had lighter

14 skin. That's as far as I know. And I had heard that Hasim said that he

15 was in the police force, this man Sredoje Lukic, but I didn't know him.

16 I went to Visegrad, but I don't remember. I don't remember having

17 anything to do with the police ever.

18 Q. Thank you. So you don't remember the source. In light of what

19 it says here in your statement, that man should be around Huso's age or

20 maybe a little older; right? Can you tell us, is he -- was he about

21 Huso's age?

22 A. Well, I don't really know.

23 MS. SARTORIO: Can we identify who Huso is? And also, if this is

24 a protected witness, should this not be on the record?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Lay some foundation, Mr. Cepic. Is Huso a

Page 1369

1 protected witness?

2 MR. CEPIC: He's not protected. He testified without any

3 measure, as far as I can remember. My learned friends from OTP can

4 remind me, but it was VG-61, but --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: He's not a protected witness, I'm informed.

6 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour. I just wasn't sure who he

7 was referring to, as he only said the first name. Thank you.

8 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, you know Huso Kurspahic, don't you?

10 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

11 Q. This man Sredoje who appeared in the house, was he about Huso's

12 age, because you said that he was retired? Or was he older than Huso,

13 perhaps younger than Huso?

14 A. Well, I really can't say. I don't know. I've said umpteen times

15 that I didn't look at them, so please believe me. Now you want me to

16 measure him up with someone else 17 years on. I really can't do that. I

17 don't know. Just my story. Whether he was Huso's colleague or superior

18 to him or his age or not, I really can't say.

19 Q. When that man introduced himself as Sredoje Lukic at that moment,

20 how far were they -- were VG-13 and VG-38 from where you were standing?

21 A. Well, we women were in the room, and the menfolk, when they

22 arrived, were at the entrance to the sitting room. We were all there,

23 but we -- all we were doing was following orders. We didn't look to see

24 how old they were or what their date of birth was.

25 Q. In that group of women, the women who were with you, was VG-13

Page 1370

1 among them?

2 A. Yes, she was.

3 Q. Madam, last week in this same courtroom before this same Trial

4 Chamber we heard testimony from VG-13, and she said that she knew Sredoje

5 Lukic and that she did not see him --

6 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour. This line of questioning

7 putting another -- statement from another witness to this witness isn't

8 proper questioning. You can put the proposition to the witness but not

9 confront this witness with what another witness has stated. This has

10 happened on numerous occasions in the courtroom and it's objectionable.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Trial Chambers will view this differently,

12 but it's preferable to put the proposition, Mr. Cepic, so do that.

13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, will you agree with the statement of

15 VG-13 who knew Sredoje Lukic?

16 A. She knew them because she worked at Hidrogradnja. She knows

17 everything about what was going on in the town.

18 MS. SARTORIO: Objection. Objection.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

20 MS. SARTORIO: He didn't -- again the question that was put to

21 the witness again mentioned the witness rather than just the proposition.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us move on.

23 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Can you recall any detail at all which would

25 help us identify that person?

Page 1371

1 A. I don't understand. Which person do you mean?

2 Q. The person who introduced himself as Sredoje Lukic.

3 A. Well, how can I testify about that? I only know about Sredoje

4 and Milan. I only know about the two of them, so I can't testify about

5 anyone else being there since I only know about them. I will not be

6 testifying about persons I didn't see.

7 Q. Do you recall him being stout or skinny? You said that he was

8 shorter than Milan.

9 A. The police officers had never been skinny, if he was on the

10 police force.

11 Q. This is your assumption. This is not your direct knowledge.

12 A. I didn't look at him to see if he was skinny or stout.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Can the microphones in the courtroom please be

14 switched off.

15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Did he have a cap on or not?

17 A. As far as I know, both of them didn't have -- or either of them

18 didn't have any caps. I heard them introduce themselves, and then when

19 they were taking valuables from us, gold and money, I saw that they

20 didn't have any caps.

21 Q. Did any of them wear a mask over their face or a stocking or

22 something of the sort?

23 A. Well, no, not when I saw them. As for when they got in there, I

24 don't know about that.

25 Q. Since they didn't have a cap, either of them, do you perhaps

Page 1372

1 recall what sort of hair they had?

2 A. I don't know. I don't know anything about that. You're asking

3 me too much. Perhaps they were bald, I don't know. How should I know

4 what sort of hair they had?

5 Q. Madam, in that house were the menfolk also compelled to hand over

6 money and jewellery?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did Hasib Kurspahic also turn over his valuables? Did they take

9 money from him?

10 A. I don't know. As far as I know, all of us did. I'm not able to

11 tell you in respect of each and every individual if they did turn over

12 their valuables. I know that I did mine. I handed over mine and went

13 back to where I was standing before. I don't know about the others.

14 Q. Thank you. But Hasib was present there, was he not?

15 A. Well, I don't know. Of course he must have been there. All of

16 us were there. Of course he was. Ah, I don't know.

17 Q. Thank you. Do you perhaps recall if any one of these individuals

18 had a moustache or a beard?

19 A. Yes. The one who was taking us to the other room to strip us

20 naked did.

21 Q. Did he introduce himself to you?

22 A. If he were here today, I would tell him, "Why don't you look at a

23 naked balija now." That's what I would tell him.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much longer do you have?

25 MR. CEPIC: I'm trying to do my best in the next ten minutes,

Page 1373

1 Your Honour, maybe less.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

3 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, I understand the pain you're feeling, and

5 I'll try to take this slowly.

6 While you were being searched, were you on the first floor of the

7 Memic house?

8 A. I don't know. I think that we were on the second floor. That's

9 what it seems to me, because I recall descending the stairs.

10 Q. Did the room have any windows?

11 A. Yes. Up -- where do you mean, downstairs or upstairs where they

12 were taking our money?

13 Q. I meant upstairs, madam.

14 A. Upstairs. Well, of course there were. Yes, there were.

15 Q. Madam, will you agree with me that you don't know who Sredoje

16 Lukic is and that you're claiming that it was Sredoje Lukic because

17 others told you to do so and because a person introduced himself as

18 Sredoje Lukic?

19 A. Well, don't, please don't. I didn't come here to tell lies or

20 untruths. I would that nobody had been there, because I wouldn't be

21 there either.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Madam, thank you very much. I have

24 no more questions for you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 1375

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

5 And you may begin, Mr. Weber.

6 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour.

7 May I ask the court usher to tender the witness the sheet.

8 Examination by Mr. Weber:

9 Q. VG-78, you have been granted protective measures by the Trial

10 Chamber, and we will be using a pseudonym instead of your name today

11 throughout your testimony. I'm directing your attention to the sheet

12 that appears in front of you. Could you please confirm if your name and

13 date of birth appear on that sheet?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you please sign the sheet.

16 A. Where, here?

17 Q. Anywhere would be fine.

18 A. [Marks]

19 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders

20 the pseudonym sheet into evidence.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As P86 under seal, Your Honours.

23 MR. WEBER: May the court officer -- sorry. Could the court

24 usher please hand to the witness this sheet.

25 Q. VG-78, you have been provided with a reference sheet which

Page 1376

1 contains the names of persons you may wish to name during the course of

2 your testimony. Could you please refrain from using those individual

3 names and instead use the pseudonyms or numbers that appear next to those

4 individuals' names on this sheet. Do you understand?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. VG-78, what village did you live in up until June of 1992?

7 A. In the village of Koritnik.

8 Q. What was your age in June of 1992?

9 A. I was 22. I was born in 1968.

10 Q. Did you previously testify in the case of the Prosecutor versus

11 Mitar Vasiljevic on the 28th of September and 1st of October, 2001?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review that testimony in the

14 Bosnian language before coming to court here today?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, pursuant to Rule 92 ter the Prosecution

17 tenders into evidence VG-78's prior testimony in the Vasiljevic case,

18 which is 65 ter numbers 132 and 133.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 132 will become Exhibit P88;

21 and 133, P89 under seal.

22 MR. WEBER: The underlying exhibits referred to and authenticated

23 in that testimony are 65 ter numbers 130 under seal, 131 under seal and

24 184. The Prosecution at this time tenders those three exhibits into

25 evidence based upon the previous testimony.

Page 1377

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Could the counsel please repeat the 65 ter

3 numbers? They're not in the transcript.

4 MR. WEBER: Of course. The first one was 65 ter 130, which is

5 under seal, the second one was 131 also under seal, and the last one was

6 184.

7 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 130 will become Exhibit number P87 under

8 seal. 65 ter 131 will become Exhibit P90 and 184 will become P91, all

9 under seal.

10 MR. WEBER:

11 Q. VG-78, did you also provide a statement to an ICY -- ICTY

12 investigator on the date of the 23rd of January, 2001?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review that statement in the

15 Bosnian language before coming to court here today?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If you were asked the same questions that you were asked when you

18 provided that statement, would you give the same answers to the Court?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is that statement true and accurate to the best of your

21 knowledge?

22 A. It is.

23 MR. WEBER: Pursuant to Rule 92 ter, the Prosecution tenders into

24 evidence VG-78's prior statement from the 23rd of January, 2001, which is

25 65 ter number 183.

Page 1378

1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P92 under seal, Your Honours.

2 MR. WEBER: Could the court usher please call up Exhibit P92,

3 which is the ICTY statement and turn to e-court page 4 of both the

4 English and the B/C/S versions. Thank you very much.

5 Q. Directing your attention to the second paragraph from the top of

6 the page. Did you state in your ICTY statement that: "I knew Milan

7 Lukic very well. He was born in 1967, and he was from a neighbouring

8 village to the village where Mitar Vasiljevic came from. Both of us went

9 to school in Prelovo. He was one grade ahead of me. After finishing 8th

10 grade he left and moved to Serbia." Was that your statement?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How many years did you attend school with Milan Lukic in Prelovo?

13 A. Seven years.

14 Q. During the course of those seven years that you attended school

15 with Milan Lukic, where would you see him in school?

16 A. I'd see him in passing in the hallways during our breaks. I'd

17 see him among other students there.

18 Q. Did you ever see Milan Lukic outside of school?

19 A. Well, yes.

20 Q. Where would you see --

21 A. Around the school building.

22 Q. And where --

23 A. Around the school building with other students as he was passing

24 by.

25 Q. I'd like to direct your attention now to your previous testimony

Page 1379

1 that you provided to the -- to the Tribunal. Did you discuss in that

2 testimony a particular day in June of 1992 in which you and other

3 individuals from your village of Koritnik left Koritnik and went to

4 Visegrad?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was that date?

7 A. The 14th of June, 1992. That was the date when we set out from

8 the village of Koritnik.

9 Q. On the 14th of June, 1992, did you eventually go to Visegrad?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where did you and the other members of your village go in

12 Visegrad?

13 A. We went to the Mahala neighbourhood, to the Pionirska Street.

14 Q. When you went to Pionirska Street, did you go to a particular

15 place?

16 A. Yes. We were told to go up there to be put up there, to spend

17 the night. We were supposed to take a bus on the following day from

18 Mahala.

19 Q. Did you go to a particular house on Pionirska Street in Visegrad?

20 A. Yes. We went where we were told to go. We were given that

21 possibility to spend the night there and to go for Kladanj on the

22 following day. They said that should anyone come to the house we should

23 show them the piece of paper that they gave us where they allegedly

24 guaranteed our safety.

25 Q. You're referring to "we." Who are you referring to?

Page 1380

1 A. The Serbs who found the accommodation for us. Milan and Mitar

2 Vasiljevic, the ones who put us up at that house, told us we would be

3 spending the night in that home and leaving for Kladanj the following

4 day. Mitar Vasiljevic gave us a piece of paper where we were allegedly

5 guaranteed safety, where nobody was allowed to mistreat us.

6 Q. Could you please describe this house?

7 A. It was a big house which had a small kitchen, two rooms, a

8 corridor, and an attic.

9 Q. Did you previously testify as to what happened in this house on

10 Pionirska Street on the 14th of June, 1992?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Directing your attention to once you arrived at the house on

13 Pionirska, I'd like to reference a particular portion of your previous

14 testimony.

15 MR. WEBER: If the court officer could please call up Exhibit

16 P88, which is page 1287, line 20 through -- I'm sorry, line 22 through

17 page 1288, line 3 from her previous testimony. It's e-court pages 11 and

18 12.

19 Q. VG-78, during your previous testimony were you asked the

20 following questions and did you provide the previous testimony:

21 "Q. Did there come a time that afternoon that Milan

22 Lukic arrived?

23 "A. Yes.

24 "Q. How many later was this in relation to the last

25 time you saw Mitar Vasiljevic?

Page 1381

1 "A. About an hour later, maybe less. I can't remember

2 exactly.

3 "Q. Was it still light outside or already dark?

4 "A. It was light."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you personally see Milan Lukic when he came into the house on

7 that occasion?

8 A. Yes. Yes, then.

9 Q. Were you sitting or standing at that time?

10 A. I was standing.

11 Q. Approximately how far was Milan Lukic from you when you saw him

12 arrive at the house?

13 A. About a metre and a half away. Perhaps a little more or a little

14 less. I can't quite remember.

15 Q. You mentioned that there was light outside. Was there visible

16 light inside of the house?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you see Milan Lukic's face at that time?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you saw Milan Lukic, what was he wearing?

21 A. A camouflage. He didn't have a hat on his head.

22 Q. When you say "camouflage," what articles of clothing was he

23 wearing that were camouflaged?

24 A. Multicoloured, the multicoloured type of clothing that the Serbs

25 wore, the Serb soldiers. I don't remember exactly. Anyway,

Page 1382

1 multicoloured clothing.

2 Q. When Milan Lukic arrived at the house on this first occasion was

3 he with anyone else?

4 A. Yes. There were two others, but I didn't know them.

5 Q. At this time when Milan Lukic entered the house were you with

6 anyone else?

7 A. Yes. I was standing there with my sister and all my family, my

8 mother, my brother's children and his wife, my family, my relatives from

9 the village of Koritnik. We were all there in the house. Some of them

10 were in the room, other -- the others were in the house because there

11 were two rooms and a hallway and so on.

12 Q. Does your sister's name appear on that sheet in front of you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you please tell the Court what is her pseudonym?

15 A. VG-101.

16 Q. Did VG-101 say anything to you when Milan Lukic arrived at the

17 house?

18 A. Yes, she did. She said, "Do you know who this is?" And I

19 couldn't remember, so I asked her who it was, and she said this is Milan

20 Lukic from the village of Prelovo who went to school the eight years of

21 elementary school when we went to school. So she recognised him first.

22 Q. Was there any doubt in your mind at this time that the individual

23 that arrived at the house was Milan Lukic?

24 A. Well, no. I had no doubt. When he ran into the house, he was

25 saying something, and my sister at that point in time, as he rushed into

Page 1383

1 the house, she said that that was Milan Lukic from the village of

2 Prelovo. Trsvina or Pozdercici or some other hamlet, but anyway, from

3 Prelovo.

4 Q. You mentioned that Milan Lukic said something. What did he say?

5 A. Yes. He came into the house and he said, "Your valuables,

6 money." He said that in a very loud voice and said that if they found

7 anybody with those things on them they would -- he would cut their

8 fingers off.

9 Q. After Milan Lukic demanded valuables and threatened to cut off

10 people's fingers, what did he then do?

11 A. They collected up the money, and the people who were with him

12 took the money away, and after that he recognised Jasmina Vila, and he

13 said, "How come you're here?" And he hugged her and took her outside.

14 Q. You've mentioned Jasmina Vila. Was she in the same room as you

15 at the time that Milan Lukic came into the house?

16 A. Yes. She was there somewhere. Whether she was in the room or in

17 the house, but she was there anyway. She was among us in the house,

18 there in the house with us.

19 Q. Approximately how far were you from Milan Lukic when he walked

20 over to Jasmina Vila?

21 A. Well, I don't remember exactly. It was all in the house. People

22 were moving around. You couldn't actually tell. I don't remember.

23 Q. Could you give an approximation?

24 A. Well, perhaps ten steps away, something like that. Ten steps.

25 Q. When Milan Lukic went over to Jasmina Vila, were you able to see

Page 1384

1 his face during that time?

2 A. Well, yes, yes. I saw him. They passed right by me, right next

3 to me.

4 Q. Did Milan Lukic proceed to leave with Jasmina Vila?

5 A. Yes, he did. He left the house.

6 Q. On this first occasion that you observed Milan Lukic,

7 approximately how much time passed between when he first arrived to when

8 he left the house?

9 A. Well, I don't remember really.

10 Q. Can you approximate?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Did you testify about another occasion that you saw Milan Lukic

13 on the 14th of June, 1992?

14 A. Well, yes.

15 Q. When was it that you saw Milan Lukic again on that day?

16 A. I saw him in the evening when they came to tell us to go out of

17 that house into another house, and they said we should leave our things

18 there, and allegedly he looked through our things to check if there were

19 any weapons or anything like that. In front of the house where the

20 people were sent off to, to the house where they were all -- where they

21 burnt them all. And he was moving around. Mitar was there at the door.

22 He said, "You don't need shoes. You can go barefoot."

23 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to a specific portion of your

24 previous testimony regarding the second occasion that you observed Milan

25 Lukic.

Page 1385

1 MR. WEBER: Court officer, this is Exhibit P88 again. It's page

2 1290, lines 14 through 19 from her previous testimony. It's e-court page

3 14.

4 Q. VG-78, did you provide the following testimony on the 28th of

5 September, 2001?

6 "Q. Did you recognise any of these men?

7 "A. I saw Milan Lukic and Mitar Vasiljevic walking

8 between the two houses. They were not in front of this house, but I ran

9 away together with VG-101. I hid behind the shed and then went down to a

10 creek and through the woods, as far away as I could from the town."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you saw Milan Lukic on this second occasion when he was with

13 Mitar Vasiljevic, approximately how far was he from you?

14 A. Well, about 30 steps away, thereabouts.

15 Q. What was the lighting -- I'm sorry. What was the lighting like

16 at that time out in front of house?

17 A. Well, there were lights outside. In the houses you could see

18 proper lights.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: What time was it?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 11.00 or half past 11.00, maybe

21 12.00. We didn't have a watch to see what the time was. Well, someone

22 did.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Weber.

24 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Was Milan Lukic with anyone else at this time besides Mitar

Page 1386

1 Vasiljevic?

2 A. Yes. There was a man standing in front of the door with a

3 moustache. I don't know his first or last name. He was in the house and

4 mistreated the people. He stood in front of the door. He had a

5 moustache, and he had a battery, and he would shine the torch, actually,

6 as people went out, but I don't know what his name was. I don't know his

7 name or surname. I didn't know him.

8 Q. Were there any other individuals besides the individual with the

9 moustache?

10 A. Well, in front of the door. One of them had a torch and would

11 shine it at the people as they left the house and, yes, there were

12 others, but they moved around. As the people came out of the house, they

13 moved towards the other house, whereas this one was in front of the door.

14 He stood in front of the door waiting for all the people to come out, the

15 one with the moustache that I said I didn't know what he was called.

16 Q. When you saw Milan Lukic on this second occasion, what portion of

17 him could you see?

18 A. Well, there were people going to the other house. They were

19 standing around there, and I was behind the house, by the shed with my

20 sister, and we went past a creek and escaped that way.

21 Q. When you saw Milan Lukic on the second occasion, could you see

22 his face?

23 A. Just a little bit. His profile. Not like when I saw him in the

24 house.

25 Q. When you saw him in the house were you looking at him from

Page 1398

1 get information, you didn't go to them. Is that true?

2 A. I don't understand the question.

3 Q. Well, did you go to the authorities to report a crime, or did you

4 they hear that you were a witness and come to you to investigate?

5 A. Yes. They came to me. They came to my house having heard about

6 that case.

7 Q. And how long did they stay with you? This -- this statement is

8 three to four pages long, three pages in Bosnian. How long did they talk

9 to you to compile this statement?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. Well, did they -- they bring a typewriter with them and type as

12 you were speaking, or did they return after the meeting and show you the

13 statement?

14 A. No. The first time they were asking questions of me there was a

15 teacher there, and then they came the second time, and then only those

16 who came from The Hague Tribunal to my house had the machines with them,

17 but not the ones who were there before.

18 MR. ALARID: Could the court assistants go to the bottom of the

19 page.

20 Q. And is that your signature at the bottom?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And so after interviewing you, the people that -- did you type

23 this yourself or was it typed by an official?

24 A. I didn't type it out. It was the one who came -- the ones who

25 came to see me.

Page 1399

1 Q. And -- and -- but you did read the statement and you signed all

2 the pages. Isn't that true?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And your memory should have been the most fresh as close to the

5 incident as possible, and memory tends to fade over time. Isn't that

6 true?

7 A. No. My memory improved over time.

8 Q. Now, isn't it true -- and I'd ask to move to page 2 of the

9 English statement, and I think it might still be on page 2 -- yes, page 2

10 on both statements.

11 Now, the only place that Milan Lukic's name appears is in the

12 first sentence of the second paragraph on page 2. Isn't that true?

13 MR. WEBER: Objection, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. What is the basis?

15 MR. WEBER: I just would ask that counsel would include in his

16 question the other references to Milan Lukic in that paragraph.

17 MR. ALARID: And --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're saying there are other references to the

19 name.

20 MR. WEBER: I believe it's -- six lines from the top of that

21 paragraph there's another reference to Mr. Lukic in the English version.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I see it.

23 MR. ALARID: No objection, Your Honour, and I'd be moving these

24 two statements into evidence so I don't forget.

25 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution has no objection. We just ask that

Page 1400

1 they be kept under seal because of the personal nature of the information

2 in it.

3 MR. ALARID: Absolutely.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will -- could I please ask

6 counsel to switch off the microphone.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will become Exhibit number 1D35

9 under seal.

10 MR. ALARID:

11 Q. Now, in this statement you make no mention of Mitar Vasiljevic

12 being there at the end of the night. Isn't that true?

13 A. Well, I mentioned him as being there outside the door when he was

14 telling us that we didn't need our shoes on, that we could go barefoot.

15 Q. Isn't it true that in the statement of 1995 you only mention

16 Mitar Vasiljevic as being present at the Red Cross wearing civilian

17 clothing and giving Meho a document to show Serbian police?

18 A. Well, yes. Yes.

19 Q. And in this statement you did not include that he was there at

20 2350 hours. Isn't that true?

21 A. Well, fine, but the truth is that he was. When we got to the

22 house one of the ladies who didn't survive said, "Mitar Vasiljevic gave

23 us a certificate." He used to work with her brother. They were good

24 mates. Apparently we were not supposed to be afraid. She said that she

25 was quite glad of Mitar having been there, because he was on good terms

Page 1401

1 with her brother. And she also said, "Don't be afraid. We'll be the

2 first ones to set out for Kladanj."

3 Q. And also in this statement you make no mention of the robbery?

4 A. As far as I remember, I said everything the way it was, that they

5 took money and gold -- or, rather, that first they came to pick us up and

6 that we had left everything behind. As we moved from one house to the

7 other we left all our belongings in the first house. Perhaps it was not

8 recorded, but I did state that, I do recall clearly stating that they

9 came to the house, took our valuables, gold, money, and they took Jasmina

10 Vila away with them.

11 Q. And -- but they didn't bother you other than taking your gold and

12 jewellery? Did you have any gold or jewellery that was taken?

13 A. Well, yes, I did. I had some money, and I turned everything

14 over, the money and gold.

15 Q. And were you personally harmed in any other way or molested?

16 A. No. No. As far as that goes, no.

17 Q. Now --

18 A. Not that I was mistreated or anything.

19 Q. Now, ma'am, a little -- and this house that you're in, it was

20 just a single storey with two rooms?

21 A. Yes. It was a big house with two rooms and a hallway. There was

22 an attic, but I don't remember if there was a bathroom.

23 Q. Was the attic finished as in people lived in the attic, or -- or

24 was it just the first floor that people lived on?

25 A. As far as I remember, one had to go up the stairs. I don't know

Page 1402

1 if it had one floor or more floors. I didn't really pay attention to

2 that. I know that there were two rooms, a hallway, a kitchen. There was

3 a balcony.

4 Q. Now, ma'am, you did have -- well, the first time you learned that

5 there were survivors other than yourself was from your brother. Isn't

6 that true?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now --

9 A. In the village of Babin Potok where we fled to.

10 Q. Is that where you saw your brother again? How much longer after

11 the incident did you see your brother?

12 A. We were in Babin Potok for 20 days. He heard that we had fled

13 and survived, so he came to see us and to take us across the Drina to

14 Crni Vrh, to safety.

15 Q. And is it at that reunion that he told you who had survived, and

16 you later told the investigators in 1995?

17 A. Yes. We believed that we were the only ones to survive since

18 there was no electricity in Babin Potok and it was impossible to hear the

19 news. He told us of the persons who had survived and got out of the

20 house, that one of them was in Gorazde, the other one in Zepa. Two or

21 three persons were in Zepa.

22 Q. And did he tell you that the news of this incident was all over

23 Muslim radio?

24 A. No, he didn't tell us that.

25 Q. When you said that you couldn't hear the radio or anything, I

Page 1403

1 wondered if he had heard that it was on the news.

2 A. No, he didn't hear that. How could he have?

3 Q. And how --

4 A. He couldn't listen to the radio and he couldn't get in touch with

5 anyone.

6 Q. But later on you spoke with VG-18, did you not?

7 A. I didn't. She was in Zepa and I was at Crni Vrh. We didn't see

8 each other before 1993. It was only then that I met up with VG-18.

9 Q. And did you discuss surviving the incident?

10 A. Well, yes, we did.

11 Q. And you should have seen everything VG-18 saw since you were in

12 the house all afternoon and all evening?

13 MR. WEBER: Objection. Calls for speculation as to what VG-18

14 saw.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Reformulate, Mr. Alarid.

16 MR. ALARID:

17 Q. You should have witnessed many of the same experiences that VG-18

18 had since you were in the house with her all afternoon.

19 MR. WEBER: Same objection, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, if you can't reformulate, move on to

21 another question.

22 MR. ALARID:

23 Q. When you reunited, what did you talk about?

24 A. We talked about what had happened to us. We talked about how the

25 events unfolded, how we got to the house. She told me about the people

Page 1404

1 who were burnt in the house. We talked about how we had left home, how a

2 neighbour told us that we should move out to Kladanj, how they told us

3 that they would accompany us there and how it all came to nothing, how we

4 got to Pionirska Street in the Mahala neighbourhood and all that.

5 Q. And, ma'am, isn't it true that you still speak with her on

6 occasion?

7 A. No, not really. I don't have an opportunity to see her since we

8 are quite far apart.

9 Q. Now, the next time you gave a statement was -- was 2001. Isn't

10 that true?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And it was in 2001 that you added a -- a bit more detail. Isn't

13 that true?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, in this statement you indicated that a Radomir Djuric came

16 to your village sometime before you were leaving and told you that the

17 White Eagles had arrived and you had to leave.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you had been hearing about the White Eagles for quite some

20 time, and there were rumours that they had burned down villages, killed

21 people, and taken girls away. Isn't that true?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you in the stadium, in the football stadium, when a Colonel

24 Jovanovic --

25 A. No.

Page 1405

1 Q. Did you hear about that, when all the people were in the stadium?

2 A. I did, but I was in my village, in the village of Koritnik. I

3 wasn't there.

4 Q. And did you hear that General Jovanovic said that he controlled

5 the White Eagles?

6 A. No, I don't remember that bit.

7 Q. Was Radomir Djuric a police officer?

8 A. Yes, he was, on the Serb police force.

9 Q. And were there any other Serb police officers that either

10 escorted you or directed you away from your village?

11 A. He told us that he would escort us to Visegrad and that we would

12 be leaving by bus to Kladanj at 1200 hours. However, he did not show up

13 on the following day when he was supposed to escort us, and we had to set

14 out for Visegrad on our own. The Serb police force waited for us at

15 Visegrad. They said that -- first they said that they would put us up at

16 Bikavac and then decided to direct us to Mahala where quite a few Muslims

17 had moved out of their homes and quite a few homes were empty.

18 Q. And so it wasn't until you were already in Mahala at the request

19 of the police that you saw Mitar Vasiljevic.

20 A. Well, yes. He accompanied us to the area outside the hotel --

21 or, rather, to Pionirska Street, and he gave a piece of paper to one man

22 from Sase.

23 Q. Did you get the impression that the man you knew as Mitar

24 Vasiljevic was doing things at the direction of the police that were at

25 the hotel in Visegrad?

Page 1406

1 A. I don't quite understand the question.

2 Q. Well, did Mitar seem like he was in a position of authority or

3 that he was merely passing messages?

4 A. Well, I don't know. He gave us the piece of paper. Where

5 exactly he was I didn't notice. I was too frightened. I know that he

6 handed over that piece of paper to us in the house where it said that we

7 shouldn't be afraid. Now, whether he received orders from the Serb

8 police, I really don't know.

9 Q. And when you saw -- how many police officers were armed and

10 outside the MUP before you moved on to the square?

11 A. They were there. I don't remember how many. They milled around

12 the town, and there were some outside the police station. I didn't pay

13 special attention to that. I did see them around Visegrad.

14 Q. And in -- when Mitar Vasiljevic and four other Serbs arrived and

15 gave the note, did you recognise the four other Serbs?

16 A. No. I was in the house then when the people who received the

17 note from Mitar.

18 Q. So they only told you that Mitar had given the note. You did not

19 witness this exchange?

20 A. Yes, yes. No, I didn't see that, but they passed it on from one

21 to the other. That's it. Some said that Mitar worked with his brother,

22 and so he hoped that we would go to Kladanj because Mitar knew the

23 brother.

24 Q. Now, in your statement of 2001, you indicated that you did see

25 the four men that were with him and they all had camouflage uniforms.

Page 1407

1 Are you saying you didn't see them now?

2 A. Well, I did because they were in front of the door. They came

3 later when Mitar and the other people were there. And people said that

4 they were in front of the door.

5 Q. Now, before it was -- when it was getting dark, there was no

6 electricity in the home, so did you have any other way of lighting the

7 inside of the home?

8 A. No, no. It was outside. The lighting came from the street

9 outside. That's how the house received its electricity.

10 Q. Now, in your statement of 2001, you indicated that you knew Milan

11 Lukic very well. He was born in 1967, and he was from a neighbouring

12 village, but yet in your testimony today you indicated that your sister

13 had to tell you that that was Mitar -- or excuse me, Milan Lukic.

14 A. Well, yes, I knew him, but she said that it was Milan Lukic. Of

15 course I knew him, and I recognised him. But when he stormed into the

16 house and asked for valuables, money, and so on, shouting, I was afraid,

17 and in that general commotion and fear she said it first.

18 Q. Yet the last time you'd really seen the Milan Lukic that you

19 think was when you were in primary school, and he was not yet a grown

20 man. Isn't that true?

21 A. I don't know understand what you just said. I'm not following.

22 Q. Well, if you're finishing primary school at 14 or 15 years of

23 age, doesn't that mean that you actually might have been even further

24 behind Milan Lukic if you were only one year behind him in age?

25 A. I was 7th grade. He was 8th grade. My relatives went to the

Page 1408

1 Prelovo primary school with him because they were the same age as him,

2 and they remember very well.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He remembers them very well.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Prior to that night when you saw Milan Lukic in

6 1992, when was the last time that you had seen him?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That evening when I saw him for the

8 last time.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no, before that. Before that evening, when

10 was the last time you had seen him?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him there and then in that

12 house. Before that I didn't see him. I don't remember, but I had heard

13 that people were saying --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Never mind that. Counsel is suggesting that the

15 last time that you saw Milan Lukic before that evening was when you were

16 in primary school with him. Is that so?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think I saw him around, but

18 I don't remember exactly when.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, she says that she might have seen him

20 around, but she doesn't remember well.

21 MR. ALARID: I guess we'll --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

23 MR. ALARID: I think we'll have to let the answer stand.

24 Q. Now, I want to take you to after 11.00 p.m., after 2300 hours,

25 and there was some commotion and everyone was woken up and asked to

Page 1409

1 leave, but in your statement of 2001 you say that "some in the group said

2 that Milan Lukic and Mitar Vasiljevic and their group were supposed to

3 kill us all. I heard somebody from our group saying we should leave the

4 house in a row one by one and walk to a nearby house."

5 What do you mean by "someone in the group said that Milan Lukic

6 and Mitar Vasiljevic were supposed to kill us all"?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was it an announcement? What did you hear? Why were you

9 leaving?

10 A. They took away the girls to the hotel, Milan Lukic. When we were

11 in our village of Koritnik we heard everything. We heard what he was

12 doing and that he was taking girls away, and I know the ones that

13 survived. And we were afraid of that, because we didn't think he'd do

14 anything to the women and children. However, when they turned up at that

15 hour, that time, to separate the girls and take them to the Hotel Vilina

16 Vlas, that's why we decided. And we were lucky to have saved our lives.

17 Q. But isn't it true that the girls were supposed to be taken away

18 earlier in the day?

19 A. Yes, after that.

20 Q. And nothing happened at the house?

21 A. Not in the house, but the ones they set aside, separated, they

22 said that's what would happen. So we planned to take our chances. But

23 some of the girls told us that they took them away to the house opposite

24 and then did what they wanted with them.

25 Q. Now, isn't it true that -- well, what were these gentlemen

Page 1410

1 wearing? What was Milan Lukic wearing? What was his ...

2 A. I think he was wearing a multicoloured -- multicoloured clothing.

3 It was a long time ago. He was wearing this clothing.

4 Q. What was the main colour in this multicoloured clothing?

5 A. Well, I don't remember.

6 Q. Did he have anything on his head?

7 A. No, he didn't, no.

8 Q. Did anyone have anything on their head?

9 A. Well, some people did.

10 Q. Now --

11 A. The one standing in front of the door with the moustache, he had

12 something on his head, some kind of cap.

13 Q. And you indicated, though, that there were eight or nine Serbs,

14 including Mitar and Milan. What about the other seven? What were they

15 wearing?

16 A. They were wearing the coloured clothes, those standing in front

17 of the door.

18 Q. Did they have any hats on?

19 A. Well, I don't remember that. Some did.

20 Q. Anyone in the group?

21 A. Yes, Mitar Vasiljevic had a hat on.

22 Q. You had seen him in that hat earlier in the day?

23 A. Well, yes, from the hotel when he passed by the people. Whether

24 he arrived before us or after us I don't know, but when he came to the

25 house he was in front of the door and people were saying that that was

Page 1411

1 Mitar Vasiljevic, the people who had seen him. They passed the word

2 around.

3 Q. So this was -- again, you did not have personal knowledge of who

4 this was but this is something that someone had told you?

5 A. Well, yes. They told me that that was him personally, people who

6 knew him better, the older people. They said that it was Mitar

7 Vasiljevic bringing in the note and so on.

8 Q. Is it possible that --

9 A. And I knew him. He worked in Visegrad in the Panos Hotel. I saw

10 him in town. He would be in front of the hotel and so on.

11 Q. Did you ever hear that Mitar Vasiljevic broke his leg falling off

12 a horse?

13 A. No.

14 Q. If I were to tell you that Mitar Vasiljevic proved he was in a

15 hospital the night of this fire would that change your recollection?

16 MR. WEBER: Objection. The witness has answered the question

17 that was posed to her directly. This calls for speculation --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 MR. ALARID:

20 Q. Why not?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a second. An objection has been raised.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That never happened. He never

23 broke his leg.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't answer, Witness.

25 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the objection is withdrawn.

Page 1412

1 MR. ALARID:

2 Q. You answered, "that never happened. He never broke his leg."

3 Why do you say that?

4 A. Because he was there that evening and everybody saw him, and my

5 whole family and the older people who knew him better than I did and

6 everything. That was not possible.

7 Q. Well, it's one thing for him to be there earlier in the afternoon

8 in the square, but it's another thing for him to be there several hours

9 later at the very end, and I'm asking you, are you sure, or are you just

10 relying on what other people have told you?

11 A. I'm quite certain he was in front of the door as we left one by

12 one, and when he said to a man from my village that he didn't need any

13 shoes, that he could go barefoot, because he knew what would happen to

14 the people. So he said, "You don't need any shoes." He told him that he

15 could go barefoot.

16 Q. So you're saying Mitar Vasiljevic is the one that told people

17 they didn't need their shoes or belongings?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Now, you indicate that the person you believe to be Milan Lukic

20 at that late hour was more than 30 steps away from you as you left the

21 house.

22 A. Well, yes, yes. He was in front of that house over there where

23 they met the people and burnt them in that house. He moved around there

24 in that area.

25 Q. And when you say 30 steps, is that 30 metres?

Page 1413

1 A. Well, I don't know exactly. I didn't count.

2 Q. How many people left the house before you? Were you in the front

3 of the line or the back of the line?

4 A. No, I wasn't in front or at the back. Well, I don't remember.

5 There were people behind me, and there were people who had gone there.

6 How could I remember things like that with all that fear? How would you

7 like it? How would you feel?

8 Q. Well, what I'm getting at is that there's probably a lot of

9 people in between you and the other house that are blocking your view,

10 and maybe you really couldn't see the guy that was down by the house in

11 the dark.

12 A. Well, we saw -- as the column was moving, they followed the

13 people there up to the house, then they withdrew where the people were,

14 and the moustached person was in front of the door with a rifle.

15 Q. And when you were able to slip away and go behind the shed, how

16 far away is that shed from the front door of the house you'd just left?

17 A. I don't remember. It was a long time ago, but it wasn't far and

18 it wasn't near.

19 Q. And wouldn't it be true that the people that were actually

20 between you and the other house are what helped block your escape from

21 the view of the soldiers?

22 A. Well, yes. That's how we managed to escape. Some were in front,

23 others were behind, and when the people were waiting outside the house we

24 managed to escape before. We didn't go to the house.

25 Q. And these same people would block your view of the house as they

Page 1414

1 blocked your view from the soldiers?

2 A. Well, we saw them. We saw them moving around amongst the people.

3 We saw them as we were coming out. That's how we saw them. But then

4 they went further off, because most of the people had already gone over

5 there, but there was still some in the house left behind us.

6 Q. Do you remember what day of the week the 14th was?

7 A. The 14th? I think it was a Sunday, but I'm not quite sure. It

8 was a long time ago.

9 MR. ALARID: No further questions.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

11 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. No questions for this

12 witness.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Then, Mr. Weber.

14 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I have no questions. I would just like

15 the record to reflect that Milan Lukic is wearing a blue patterned tie

16 today and Mr. Sredoje Lukic is wearing a red patterned tie.

17 MR. CEPIC: Objection.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what would be the basis for that?

19 MR. WEBER: I'm just asking the record reflect that. The witness

20 previously described in her testimony the ties that were being worn by

21 the witnesses during her identification.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that would better come from the witness,

23 not than you. You can't give that evidence.

24 MR. WEBER: That evidence was already previously given.

25 MR. ALARID: In that regard, Your Honour --