Page 1418
1 Tuesday, 9 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
7 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-101
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may begin, Ms. Sartorio.
12 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution called
13 VG-101 to the stand. This witness has protective measures in the form of
14 a pseudonym and facial distortion. I would like the court officer to
15 please pass the pseudonym sheet to the witness.
16 Examination by Ms. Sartorio:
17 Q. Witness, you've been granted protective measures by this Court
18 and thus we will be using a pseudonym rather than your name. Your
19 pseudonym is number 101, Witness VG-101. On the piece of paper that's in
20 front of you, can you confirm that -- just don't say the date, but
21 confirm that your name and date of birth are correct on that paper in
22 front of you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Could you also please sign this paper.
25 MS. SARTORIO: I think the witness may need a pen.
Page 1419
1 And may I ask that the court officer show the pseudonym sheet to
2 the Defence and to the Chamber, and then we will ask that it be admitted
3 in evidence.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the pseudonym sheet will become P93
5 under seal.
6 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I'd like to ask now the court officer
7 to provide to the witness another reference sheet.
8 Q. And, Witness, this reference sheet contains the names of persons
9 that you may be mentioning in your testimony, and next to the names there
10 are numbers, and I'd like to ask you to please kindly refrain from
11 mentioning any witnesses' names but, rather, refer to the sheet and to
12 the number that is assigned to the witness. Do you understand this?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you'll receive the witness sheet in just a moment.
15 MS. SARTORIO: And, Your Honours, this witness is a viva voce
16 witness. We'll expect to complete her direct examination within one and
17 a half hours.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
20 MS. SARTORIO:
21 Q. So you were saying yes with regard to the reference sheet;
22 correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Witness VG-101, in what village were you born?
25 A. I was born in the village of Koritnik
Page 1420
1 Q. And in what municipality is Koritnik located?
2 A. The village of Koritnik
3 Q. And how far is the village of Koritnik
4 Visegrad?
5 A. Six kilometres away.
6 Q. Would you please describe for the Chamber your educational
7 background, how many total years you went to school and what kind of
8 school.
9 A. I attended school for 11 years, and I completed the vocational
10 school for a worker in the tourist industry, catering.
11 Q. Now, were the first eight years of your schooling considered to
12 be primary school?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then what was the next three years called?
15 A. High school, except that it lasted for three years.
16 Q. And what is your ethnicity?
17 A. Muslim, Bosniak.
18 Q. Now, would you look at the sheet in front of you, and I'm going
19 to ask you is Witness number VG-78, is this your sister?
20 A. Yes, that is my sister.
21 Q. And, Witness, could you please describe the ethnic mix of the
22 Koritnik community prior to the war.
23 A. Before the war the population was mixed. There were both Muslims
24 and Serbs living together as neighbours.
25 Q. And can you give me the approximate percentages, if you recall?
Page 1421
1 A. Excuse me, I didn't understand.
2 Q. I was just asking if you knew the percentage between Serbs and
3 Muslim residents, if it was 50 per cent and 50 per cent, or if you
4 recall?
5 A. There were less Muslim people. There were more Serbs.
6 Q. And before the war began, were there any conflicts between the
7 Serb residents and the Muslim residents of Koritnik?
8 A. No, no conflicts.
9 Q. Can you describe what kind of relationship the two groups shared,
10 if any?
11 A. The relationship was always a good one. We socialised, lived
12 next to each other, visited each other.
13 Q. Now, at this point in time I would like to direct your attention
14 to the 13th day of June in 1992 and ask do you recall that day?
15 A. Yes, I do. I will never forget it.
16 Q. Okay. And on the 13th what, if anything, occurred?
17 A. Yes. A neighbour of us, Djuric, Radomir, came and said that we
18 had to leave the village, that the army was coming over from Prelovo and
19 that they could no longer protect us. He told us that by that time they
20 had gone through other villages burning houses and expelling people. He
21 told us that we should join a convoy that was to go to Visegrad on the
22 14th of that month.
23 Q. And when he said the army was coming, which army?
24 A. The Serbian army.
25 Q. And when he told -- you say, "He told us we should join a
Page 1422
1 convoy." Could you tell us who "us" is?
2 A. He said that a convoy was to be organised with six buses from
3 Visegrad and that we were to join the convoy.
4 Q. And again when you say "we," do you mean -- please tell us who
5 "we" is.
6 A. The Muslims from Koritnik. He said that we all had to leave to
7 join the convoy.
8 Q. Can you tell us how far away Prelovo is from Koritnik?
9 A. Five or six kilometres away.
10 Q. Now, you were told this on the 13th. Did you at some point
11 depart Koritnik as suggested?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And when did you do that?
14 A. He said that we were to go to Greben on the 14th of June and that
15 a bus was to arrive to pick us up at 8.00 that day. We all arrived in
16 Greben.
17 Q. So you left Koritnik on -- before 8.00 in the morning on the 14th
18 of June.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And when -- you expected to be picked up by buses in Greben. Do
21 you know where your final destination was supposed to be?
22 A. We were told that we were to go to Kladanj.
23 Q. And do you know what Kladanj is?
24 A. I know it is a town, but I don't know where it is exactly. I've
25 never been there.
Page 1423
1 Q. Do you know if it was occupied by Muslims or Serbs, or both?
2 A. I don't know. They said that we were to go to Kladanj and that
3 the Serbs from Kladanj were to come to our houses.
4 Q. So when you left Koritnik early in the morning on the 14th of
5 June, how long did it take you to walk to Greben?
6 A. Half an hour on foot, because Greben is not far away from
7 Koritnik. We arrived on time, even before 8.00.
8 Q. Can you tell the Chamber how many -- approximately how many
9 people were in your group and tell us if you remember the types of
10 people, men, women, children, et cetera?
11 A. Yes. I think that there were 48 or 50 of us. There were
12 children, including a three-day-old baby, some children between 3 and 15
13 years of age. There were girls, men, and women.
14 Q. And can you tell us were all of the people in the group of
15 Muslim -- Bosnian Muslim ethnicity?
16 A. Yes. They were all Muslims, and we all hailed from the same
17 family. We share the same last name.
18 Q. Were any of the people in your group dressed in Bosnian army
19 clothing?
20 A. No. We were all in civilian clothes.
21 Q. And were any people in your group armed with any type of weapons?
22 A. No, nothing of that sort.
23 Q. Now, when you arrived in Greben, was there a bus waiting for your
24 group?
25 A. No, there was no bus. Radomir told us that he will wait with us
Page 1424
1 for the bus, but in the end he didn't turn up in Greben at all.
2 Q. So what did you and the group do next since you were in Greben
3 and there was no bus?
4 A. We waited for the bus. We spent quite some time there, although
5 I don't know how long exactly. In any case, we were there for a
6 considerable length of time in Greben.
7 Q. Now, did the people in the group -- were they carrying anything?
8 A. Yes. We had a lot of things with us, clothing, luggage, bags,
9 and it was slowing us down. The things were heavy and we couldn't carry
10 them.
11 Q. So after you were in Greben for a considerable length of time,
12 then where did you go?
13 A. Then we went to -- towards Visegrad, arriving in a place called
14 Sase. We also spent a lot of time there.
15 Q. And how long did it take you to get to Sase?
16 A. Another half an hour, I'd say. It is not too far away from
17 Greben.
18 Q. Now, in Sase did anything happen or did you see any other
19 persons?
20 A. Yes. There were many soldiers there in camouflage uniforms,
21 sporting weapons, passing next to us. Then a Serb told us that we should
22 go to Visegrad and that we could no longer stay there. He told us that
23 we should go on so that we would reach Visegrad before it gets dark.
24 Q. Do you remember the name of this Serb?
25 A. No, I cannot recall what his name was.
Page 1425
1 Q. And when you say there were many soldiers there in camouflage
2 uniforms, are you talking about Serb soldiers?
3 A. Yes. These were all Serb soldiers.
4 Q. So then you continued your trek from Sase to Visegrad; is that
5 correct?
6 A. Yes. Yes. We all went towards Visegrad. The Serb who told us
7 to go said that he will go first at the head of the column in his
8 vehicle.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.
10 Mr. Cepic.
11 MR. CEPIC: I apologise for interrupting, but I have a feeling
12 that the last two questions were leading questions, just to remind the
13 Trial Chamber.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: "And when you say there were many soldiers there
15 in camouflage, are you talking about Serbs?"
16 MR. CEPIC: Sorry, Your Honours, apologise.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is leading, so the answer is useless.
18 MS. SARTORIO: I will rephrase the question, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
21 Q. I need to ask you a question again. When you referred to
22 soldiers that were in camouflage uniforms --
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the mike is on.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 MS. SARTORIO:
Page 1426
1 Q. Can you tell us where those soldiers were from?
2 A. I can't. I don't know where they were from. They were just
3 there.
4 Q. Do you know what country they were from?
5 A. They were from the same country as myself. These were local
6 Serbs, the local Serbian army.
7 Q. And they were -- what colour was the camouflage uniforms they
8 were wearing?
9 A. They wore camouflage uniforms, olive-drab in colour.
10 Q. Now, when you left -- did you leave Sase at some point?
11 A. Yes. We went towards Visegrad.
12 Q. And did you eventually reach Visegrad?
13 A. We arrived in Visegrad, although I don't know at what time
14 exactly. In the end we did arrive there.
15 Q. Now, between your trek from Koritnik to Visegrad, did you ever
16 see any buses driving along the road on which you were walking?
17 A. There was one bus that passed by us in Sase, and there were
18 people from the village of Vlahovici
19 the direction of Visegrad.
20 Q. And can you tell us what kind of bus this was?
21 A. It was a Centrotrans Transport Company bus.
22 Q. Now, did you know -- did you see anyone or did you know anyone
23 who was on board of this bus?
24 A. No. It just passed by in the direction of Visegrad. It did not
25 stop there.
Page 1427
1 Q. Now, when you arrived in Visegrad what -- where did your group go
2 first?
3 A. We went down the main street in Visegrad. Some Serb policemen
4 and Serb soldiers were in front of the MUP building. They told us to
5 take Jondza Street next to the Drina in order to reach the Red Cross
6 building.
7 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber the Serb policemen and Serb
8 soldiers that you saw, in particular what they were wearing?
9 A. The Serb policemen had blue camouflage uniforms. The rest had
10 camouflage uniforms of another colour.
11 Q. Did anyone in your group speak with any of the policemen or
12 soldiers?
13 A. No. They just kept screaming at us, telling us that we should go
14 down Jondza Street in order to get to the Red Cross building.
15 Q. I know it's been a long time, but can you remember any of the
16 words or anything -- any -- anything that they were saying to you in
17 particular, other than to go to the Red Cross?
18 A. Yes. They told us to go to the Red Cross building. We took the
19 street, but the building was closed since it was a Sunday. In front of
20 the new hotel there were other policemen and other Serbs in camouflage
21 uniforms. They lined us up in pairs, insulting us, provoking us, yelling
22 at us. From the village a dog accompanied us, and it was killed there.
23 Q. I want to just stop you for a minute. You said the Red Cross was
24 closed. So I think you're jumping ahead.
25 A. Yes, it was a Sunday.
Page 1428
1 Q. Where did you go after you discovered that the Red Cross was
2 closed?
3 A. From the Red Cross building we arrived in front of the new hotel
4 building. We stopped in front of it.
5 Q. And then you just described some events that were going on. Can
6 you give us that description again in more detail, what you remember
7 happened, if anything, to you at the Novi Hotel?
8 A. This Serb policeman lined us up in pairs. They provoked us,
9 yelling at us. There was a dog that accompanied us from the village.
10 They killed it, and they forced a man that was with us to throw the
11 corpse off the bridge.
12 Q. And when they did these things to you, were you standing outside
13 of the hotel?
14 A. Yes. We were in front of the hotel.
15 Q. And at any point in time did you or anyone in the group go inside
16 the hotel?
17 A. No. They put us in the hotel garden next to the bridge so that
18 we would no longer stand in the street.
19 Q. And as they were provoking and yelling at you, did you hear them
20 talking amongst themselves?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Were any of these men armed?
23 A. Yes, all of them.
24 Q. Now, at some point did something else happen?
25 A. Yes. They were discussing among themselves where to put us,
Page 1429
1 whether in the garden or to go to Bikavac. During that time -- and a
2 Serb arrived who told them to send us off to the neighbourhood where
3 there was some abandoned Muslim houses.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness mentioned the
5 name of the Serbian person, but we failed to pick that up.
6 MS. SARTORIO:
7 Q. Could you tell us, if you know, the name of the neighbourhood
8 where they were talking about, that they were talking about?
9 A. It was Mitar Vasiljevic who told us to go to Mahala to Pionirska
10 Street to the abandoned Muslim houses there.
11 Q. And are you -- were you familiar with the Mahala settlement on
12 Pionirska Street
13 A. Yes, we were.
14 Q. And how were you familiar with this area?
15 A. I knew about it because some of my village relatives lived there.
16 Q. So did the group then embark off for -- towards Pionirska Street
17 A. Yes. We were in a column in pairs. They told us to go down the
18 main street in Visegrad towards Mahala.
19 Q. And when you got to Mahala, what street were you on?
20 A. Pionirska Street.
21 Q. And how long did it take? Approximately how long did it take you
22 to walk to Pionirska Street?
23 A. Perhaps 15 to 20 minutes. Not much.
24 Q. And when you got to Pionirska Street, what happened next?
25 A. When we arrived there a female relative of mine was there in a
Page 1430
1 house with her under-aged son and mother-in-law. She came out and said
2 that she could not take us in, that there were too many of us and that we
3 should go to some of the other houses.
4 Mitar Vasiljevic followed us, gathered us around him and he said
5 we can no longer live together. "You are to go to Kladanj, to the Muslim
6 houses there, and the people from there will go to your houses." He told
7 us that we should all enter a house that was there at that point.
8 Q. After Mitar Vasiljevic said this to you, then what happened next?
9 A. We all entered the house. It was he who showed us which house to
10 go to. He was present. We all entered the house.
11 Q. Now, this -- just so the record's clear, you said that he told
12 you all to go to Kladanj, but you were still on Pionirska Street at this
13 time when you entered a house; is that correct?
14 A. Yes. He told us that we were to leave the next morning early on
15 the 15th of June at 6.00. He said that we were late for the buses that
16 day.
17 Q. Do you know whose house your group was occupying at that point in
18 time?
19 A. I don't know exactly. I think the person's name was Ragib.
20 Q. Now, this Mitar Vasiljevic person, could you please tell us what
21 he was wearing?
22 A. He was wearing an olive-drab uniform, a long black overcoat, and
23 a black hat.
24 Q. And did you know him prior to this time?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1431
1 Q. How did you know him?
2 A. From the times when I attended school in Prelovo. He resided
3 there, and I saw him there often.
4 Q. Did you see him anywhere else?
5 A. Yes. He worked in Visegrad as a waiter in a hotel. I don't know
6 which one exactly. That is where I occasionally saw him as well.
7 Q. So when you saw him at this time on the 14th of June, did you
8 recognise him or did you learn his identity through his name?
9 A. Yes. I recognised him immediately.
10 Q. Well, when you got into this house, did Mitar Vasiljevic stay or
11 did he leave?
12 A. He left.
13 Q. Did he say anything else to any of the occupants in the house?
14 A. Yes. He gave a piece of paper to a man that was with us, some
15 sort of an assurance that no one should touch us. He told us that if
16 Serbian police arrive that we should show them our IDs. He also said
17 that we were first to be put on the buses the next morning to leave for
18 Kladanj.
19 Q. And at some point did Mitar Vasiljevic leave the house?
20 A. Yes, he did.
21 Q. And then what did the group do at this point when you were inside
22 the house? Was everyone in one room? Can you please describe what it
23 was like?
24 A. Yes. We enter the house. We were drenched from the brain that
25 had been falling the whole day. We changed out of the wet clothes and
Page 1432
1 sat in the house.
2 Q. Now, at some point in time did anyone else come to the house?
3 A. Yes. As we were sitting in the house Milan Lukic entered the
4 room where I was. He was the first one. He kicked open the door with
5 his boot and was followed by three more Serbs.
6 Q. And can you tell us approximately what time this was, if you
7 recall?
8 A. I don't know precisely, but it was around 5.00 or 6.00 p.m.
9 came right after Mitar Vasiljevic. I think less than half an hour had
10 elapsed before their arrival.
11 Q. Do you know if Milan Lukic and three -- the other three persons
12 you describe as Serbs, if they arrived in any vehicle?
13 A. I don't know. I didn't hear a vehicle stop. It was the main
14 road, and the vehicles passed constantly. I saw them first as the door
15 was kicked open, but I don't know if they arrived in a car.
16 Q. Now, before I ask you some questions about Mr. Lukic, I would
17 like to ask you if you can tell us -- describe the other three persons
18 whom you've said were Serbs, describe for the Judges.
19 A. Yes, I can. The other Serb was somewhat short than Milan Lukic.
20 He sported a black moustache and had black curly hair. The other Serb
21 had blonde or light brown hair. He was a bit taller and of somewhat
22 heavier built than Lukic, and a third one seemed the youngest among them.
23 He was 18 or perhaps even younger. He was tall, gangly, and the youngest
24 of the group.
25 Q. Did any of these four men disguise their faces?
Page 1433
1 A. No. Their faces were clearly to be seen.
2 Q. And how many of these men did you recognise when you saw them?
3 A. I recognised Milan Lukic.
4 Q. Now, I would like to ask you some questions about how it was you
5 were able to recognise Milan Lukic. Did you know him from before?
6 A. Yes. I had known him very well. We went together to the primary
7 school in Prelovo. He was only a year older. We went together to the
8 secondary school as well. We didn't go to the same class. We were in
9 part of the same class, but we went to the same school. So I had known
10 him for a number of years.
11 Q. You went to school for 11 years; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you see him often during these 11 years that you were in
14 school?
15 A. Yes. I'd see him every day in the hallways and on the school
16 grounds. I'd always come across him.
17 Q. Now, did you -- what age were you when you finished secondary
18 school?
19 A. I was 18.
20 Q. And how old were you in June of 1992?
21 A. I was 23.
22 Q. Now, did you see Milan Lukic between your age of 18 and 23?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And where would you see him?
25 A. I saw him round the town. I'd see him in the village of Prelovo
Page 1434
1 where dances or parties were organised and attended by Muslims and Serbs
2 alike. That's where I'd see him, because both Serbs and Muslims would
3 attend these balls or dances.
4 Q. Now, between the time you were in school to 1992 did you notice
5 whether his appearance changed and, if so, in what way?
6 A. No. Perhaps slightly. He may have grown stouter, but the face
7 remained quite the same.
8 Q. Now, I'll take you back to the house on Pionirska Street. When
9 these men entered the room, what did they say? What did -- did any of
10 them say anything and, if so, whom and what did that person say?
11 A. Yes. They placed a bag on the table and said, "Money, gold,
12 place all of it on the table. If we find anything on anyone, we will
13 kill you all."
14 Q. Do you recall who said that?
15 A. Milan Lukic did.
16 Q. Now, did you hear these four men speaking with each other,
17 calling each other any type of names?
18 A. No, I didn't hear that.
19 Q. Did you hear them speaking to any of the other occupants in the
20 house and using their names?
21 A. No.
22 Q. I may have asked you this and I apologise, but were you all in
23 one room or several rooms?
24 A. Yes. There was a living-room. There was another room or perhaps
25 two more rooms and a hallway. We couldn't all fit into one room, and
Page 1435
1 people were split among the three rooms or between the two or three
2 rooms. I don't know how many there were.
3 Q. Now, after Milan Lukic said, "Money, gold, place all of it on the
4 table, what did you do?
5 A. We gave whatever we had. We turned it over, the money, the gold.
6 There were even foreign currency banknotes, Deutschmarks and Austrian
7 shillings and -- so that Milan
8 something to the effect, "Oh, we even have foreign currency banknotes
9 here."
10 Q. And what about your jewellery?
11 A. Yes. Whatever we had, we placed in the bag.
12 Q. Now, after this happened or while this was happening, did
13 anything else happen? Did these -- did anything else happen? Did these
14 men order -- okay.
15 A. Yes. When they were finished with the looting, then the
16 moustached Serb with black curly hair started separating women by ones or
17 by twos. We were supposed to go over to the next room with him and take
18 all of our clothes off.
19 Q. And what was the purpose of that?
20 A. He said that we should come along with him for an examination,
21 that we should take our clothes off in order for him to make sure and see
22 clearly that we had not withheld any of the money or jewellery.
23 Q. And where was Milan Lukic while this was being -- the searches
24 were being conducted?
25 A. They were on the staircase leading to the front door of the
Page 1436
1 house. That's where they stood while he was searching us.
2 Q. Okay. I need to clarify. You say, "They were on the staircase
3 leading to the front door of the house. That's where they stood while he
4 was searching us."
5 Now, who was searching you?
6 A. We were being searched by the moustached Serb with curly hair.
7 Q. And does "they" refer to the other three men?
8 A. Yes. They were there in the house. Whether they were on the
9 staircase or in another room while he was searching us. And as he
10 searched some of the women, he instructed us to go to a specific room
11 after having been searched so that he might keep track of the women he
12 had searched and the ones he had not.
13 Q. And when you're using the pronoun "he," you're referring to the
14 man with the moustache?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. So do you know if all the women in that group were searched?
17 A. Yes, all of them. He wasn't looking for money at all. This was
18 just a way for him to humiliate us as much as he could. He only wanted
19 us to strip naked. He didn't even bother to go through the clothing to
20 look for what he was purportedly looking for. He was sitting on a chair
21 laughing at us while we were forced to appear naked before him. That was
22 terrible humiliation for us.
23 Q. Can you tell me approximately how long these strip searches took?
24 A. It went on for quite a long time. There were quite a few of us
25 women and girls. It took some time for us to take our clothes off and
Page 1437
1 then put them back on. So it did take quite a while.
2 Q. Did you see -- at any point did you see Milan Lukic in the room
3 where women were being searched?
4 A. No. Only the moustached Serb was in that room, and he was the
5 only one searching us.
6 Q. Do you know if there were searches going on in other rooms of
7 which you didn't have any visibility for?
8 A. We all had to appear before him in that room. All the women had
9 to.
10 Q. So what happened -- excuse me, another question. Do you know if
11 any of the men were searched?
12 A. No.
13 Q. No, you don't remember, or no, they weren't?
14 A. No. Only the women and girls were searched.
15 Q. Now, after the strip searches what, if anything, happened next?
16 A. When he was all done with it, then the moustached Serb told
17 Lukic, "I found a good one for you." Lukic then asked him, "What size
18 does she wear?" I don't know what it meant. I only know that they
19 laughed after he said that. Then they took a girl outside of the house,
20 and they all went with her. They went away with her.
21 Q. And without saying her name, did you know who this girl was?
22 A. Yes. Yes, I know her very well. She was married to a relative
23 of mine. She was 15 years old and had only been married for a year.
24 Q. Now, after they went away with her did -- did -- eventually did
25 she return and, if so, whom was she with when she returned?
Page 1438
1 A. Yes. They brought her back to the house. At one point I was
2 sitting on the ground in the kitchen and there were quite a few women
3 around me. Milan Lukic entered the room and told me, "Get up. Are you
4 wearing jeans?" He was able to see full well that I didn't have any
5 jeans, but nevertheless he said, "Get up. Are you wearing any jeans?" I
6 stood is up, and we looked each other in the eye and gazed into each
7 other's eyes for five minutes. Then the moustached Serb came along and
8 said, "That's not her." He got into the room and took another girl out.
9 He brought her over to Lukic. When Lukic saw her, since he had known her
10 well, he said, "Well, well, who do we have here? How come you're here?
11 What are you doing here?" He put her arm -- put his arm around her, and
12 they all went out with the girl.
13 Q. And you say you knew who the second girl was as well. You don't
14 have to say her name, but you knew her?
15 A. Yes, I knew her well. Lukic had been taking her away before that
16 as well. She had run away from him and had tried to hide with us in the
17 village. That's how she came to be in our group as we set out for
18 Visegrad.
19 Q. Now, when the first girl was brought back, did you have a chance
20 to speak with her or see her?
21 A. Yes. I was sitting next to her. She was crying, and she told me
22 that they had raped her. She said, "God forbid that that should happen
23 to you." They asked her, "Why didn't you smear something on your face
24 and then they would not have raped you." And they said, "It's not going
25 to be just you. All of the women and girls will experience the same."
Page 1439
1 Q. Did she say which of the men told her this?
2 A. Milan Lukic told her as much.
3 Q. Now, did you have a chance to -- no. After the second girl was
4 taken out, did she return to the house as well?
5 A. Yes. She returned without telling me anything. She was weeping
6 and lay down, covered herself with a blanket and stayed silent.
7 Q. Now, can you tell me approximately how long all of this took from
8 the time you say Milan
9 A. I don't know exactly.
10 MR. ALARID: And I would object to the characterisation of
11 kicking down the door. That's a misstatement of the evidence.
12 MS. SARTORIO: I'll rephrase the question.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think -- I don't believe the evidence
14 was very much different, from my recollection.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't say that the door was
16 knocked down. I said that it was opened.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The door was not knocked down. It
19 was opened.
20 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.
22 MS. SARTORIO:
23 Q. The question was approximately how much time had elapsed between
24 the time the door was opened and this point in time?
25 A. I don't know exactly. We couldn't keep track of the time. We
Page 1440
1 didn't have a watch on us to be able to tell the time. It was difficult
2 to establish how much time had elapsed.
3 Q. Do you recall if it was getting dark outside?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now, what happened next?
6 A. When they brought the girl back, they took away a woman who had
7 three children. They brought her as far as the stairs, but her daughter
8 was crying and holding, gripping her. They couldn't separate them, so
9 they brought them back into the room.
10 Q. Did anything else happen?
11 A. Next they said that they were going somewhere to have roast of
12 lamb and something to drink and warned us that we should all stay
13 indoors. As they left the house, it started to get dark.
14 Q. Now, who said that they were going somewhere to roast of lamb and
15 something to drink?
16 A. Milan Lukic said that.
17 Q. Now, when you say you were all warned to stay indoors, can you
18 recall exactly what was said to you?
19 A. Yes. They said that nobody should leave the house, that we all
20 had to stay indoors. We weren't even allowed to come out the front door.
21 We all had to stay in the house.
22 Q. And when you say "they," again could you please identify the
23 speaker if you're able to?
24 A. Milan Lukic and the other Serbs who were with him.
25 Q. Did any of the men state that they would be back?
Page 1441
1 A. Yes. They said, "We'll be back, and when we come back," that's
2 something that they told the victim that they raped, "we don't have the
3 time now, but everybody will get their turn."
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's another leading question, you know,
5 Ms. Sartorio.
6 MS. SARTORIO: I'll restate the question.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we have the answer already, but "Did any
8 of them state that they will be back," which is I imagine a point of
9 issue, but you told the witness the answer.
10 MS. SARTORIO:
11 Q. Well, my question is who said "we'll be back," if anyone?
12 A. Yes. All of them said that they would be back.
13 Q. And the victim that they raped, you stated that she said
14 something one of them had said. Did you tell you which one had said that
15 to her?
16 A. Milan Lukic said that.
17 Q. How were you feeling at this time?
18 A. Horrible. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone to feel that.
19 Q. Now, after the men left the house --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I can understand that, Ms. Sartorio, stated that
21 she said something one of them had said and said Milan Lukic said that,
22 but what is it he said?
23 MS. SARTORIO: Line 23 -- excuse me, page 23, line 24 -- or 25.
24 "Yes, they --"
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, I see. It's the same issue of being back.
Page 1442
1 MS. SARTORIO: Well, at that -- no. At that point, Your Honour,
2 she's talking about something -- something they told the victim that they
3 raped. "We don't have the time now, but everybody will get their turn."
4 My question was: "Did the victim tell you, Witness, who said that to
5 her?"
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. She told me that it was Milan
8 Lukic who had told her that.
9 MS. SARTORIO:
10 Q. Now, I asked you how you were feeling. Did you talk to any of
11 the other people in the house after the men left?
12 A. We talked to each other, but we stayed silent rather than
13 talking.
14 Q. Did anyone talk about who these men were?
15 A. Yes. A man was saying -- they were all saying that they knew
16 them. We all knew who those men were and what they were.
17 Q. And can you tell us who -- when you say, "We all knew who those
18 men were and what they were," what do you mean by that?
19 A. Well, we already knew by that time what the Serbian army was
20 doing to the Muslim people around Visegrad. It was all very clear to us.
21 Q. Okay. I'm talking about these specific four men, whether anyone
22 in the room discussed who they were.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now, at some point in the evening did anything else happen?
25 A. Yes. I don't know what time it was. It may have been at around
Page 1443
1 11.00 or 12.00 p.m. A car -- or rather, 12.00 a.m. A car pulled over in
2 front of the house. It was quite noisy, the engine of the car. They
3 flashed the lights at the windows and at the front door of the house and
4 told us to get out of that house and move over to another house.
5 Q. Now, let's just take it a little bit slower. When you say a car
6 pulled over in front of the house, did you actually see this?
7 A. I didn't see that, but I heard the car. Some of the people who
8 were by the window could see the car out in the street quite clearly.
9 Q. And were the people in front of the window say anything about who
10 was in the car?
11 A. No. They weren't able to see who was in the car.
12 Q. Okay. And then after the car arrived what was the next thing
13 that happened?
14 A. They said that we should come out of that house and move over to
15 a different house. They told us that we needn't bother to put our shoes
16 on. We could go barefoot because we were only changing houses.
17 Q. Now, when you say, "They said we should come out of the house,"
18 who is "they," please?
19 A. Yes. The Serbs who arrived said that. In the doorway there was
20 that same moustached -- moustached Serb who shone his flashlight torch
21 toward the interior of the house and told us that we should get out of
22 the house.
23 Q. So that's the first person you saw?
24 A. Yes. He was outside the front door of that house.
25 Q. So then what did you and the group do?
Page 1444
1 A. The people were panic-stricken for a moment. There was commotion
2 in the house. Some moved to fetch their belongings, although we were
3 told not to take any belongings with us. At one point I got out onto the
4 balcony because I was entertaining the idea of jumping out of the
5 balcony. I wanted to avoid facing them at any cost. However, the house
6 was too big. It was two floors up, and I didn't dare to jump, so I got
7 out of the house with the others.
8 Q. Now, so far you've seen the man with the moustache at the door.
9 Did you hear any of the other -- any other persons?
10 A. No. Not right there outside the front door, and that's where he
11 was. For a brief moment I saw Mitar Vasiljevic behind him. I put my
12 boots on, and it took me quite a while to get my boots on, and by the
13 time I did only the man with the moustache was standing outside the door,
14 and he was standing there all that time.
15 Q. At some point in time did you exit that first house?
16 A. Yes. I went out. He pointed in a certain direction and said,
17 "Go down that way." In front of me at some distance I could see a blonde
18 Serb whom I described. He stood there with a large torchlight lighting
19 the road we were to take. He was also shedding some light on us, and one
20 could see well the whole area. He said that we should go towards that
21 man who was down the street.
22 Q. Just so -- again so the record is clear, at the beginning of your
23 answer you said, "He pointed in a certain direction." Are you talking
24 about the man with the moustache at that point?
25 A. Yes. Yes. He said, "Go down there," where the blonde Serb was
Page 1445
1 and where there was light. He held a torchlight lighting our way as we
2 were approaching him from the direct of the house.
3 Q. And I'm going to show you a photograph in just a moment, Witness,
4 so you can identify where --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
6 MR. CEPIC: I apologise for interrupting. Just one technical I
7 think error in the transcript. Page 27, line 15. I think that it was
8 the answer, not the question. Just for clarification of transcript.
9 MS. SARTORIO: I agree with that.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.
11 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 MS. SARTORIO:
13 Q. Now, did you recognise the person whom you describe as the blonde
14 Serb holding the light?
15 A. Yes. It was the same person who came to the house with Lukic as
16 they were looting and taking money and jewellery away from us.
17 Q. And -- so what happened next?
18 A. I went in that direction. Some people were in front of me. I
19 was halfway there, and I knew that if I were to go into the light, to the
20 blonde man, that there was no way I would survive. I never feared death,
21 and I didn't run away. The only thing I was afraid of was rape. I
22 thought that if I went down there that they would separate the women and
23 girls, as they had before.
24 I turned back to the house and looked at the Serb who was in
25 front of the door, the one with the moustache. He noticed me hesitating
Page 1446
1 and then made a few steps in my direction. I turned around again and
2 went the same way.
3 The blonde Serb shed some light on me, and as he was putting the
4 torchlight down, his eyes went down as well. I made use of that moment,
5 and I ran to the left some ten metres, and I hid behind a shed.
6 Q. Okay. Let me stop you there, please. Thank you.
7 Now, before you used that moment to run to the left, did you see
8 what was going on in front of you?
9 A. Yes. I saw the people coming near the blonde Serb entering
10 that -- the other house. There was a girl standing next to him. She had
11 some medical problems and was not attending school. She probably did not
12 understand where she was supposed to go, and she just kept standing there
13 looking at him. The others in front of me were all entering the house.
14 Q. Now, other than the blonde man did you see anyone else that was
15 not part of your group?
16 A. Sorry, I did not understand.
17 Q. You saw the man with the moustache, and then you saw the blonde
18 man. Did you see anyone else?
19 A. Yes. Yes. I saw Milan Lukic and Mitar Vasiljevic standing in
20 front of the house where the people were going into. They were in the
21 lit area. They were looking at the house at the moment when I ran for
22 the shed.
23 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, at this point I would like the court
24 officer to please bring up Exhibit P77. It's a photograph.
25 Is that as large as we can make it? Okay.
Page 1447
1 And perhaps to assist the witness. I'm going to ask her to make
2 some markings on this photograph.
3 MS. SARTORIO:
4 Q. Witness 101, have you seen this photograph before?
5 A. Yes, I have.
6 Q. I'd like you to make some markings for me and I'm going to ask
7 you, first, do you see Pionirska Street on this map?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Could you please draw a line along the street and put a P for
10 Pionirska, please.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Now, do you see in this photograph the first house that you and
13 the group were in?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Could you put a 1 on the roof of that house, please.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Now, do you -- if you recall where the door was on that house
18 approximately, could you put a V for door in Bosnian.
19 A. Yes. [Marks]
20 Q. So was the door actually -- it's on the -- it fronts that little
21 street or paved little alley; correct? Is that right?
22 A. Here.
23 Q. Okay. Now, could you please label the second house which you
24 said people were walking into before you escaped from the group and put a
25 2.
Page 1448
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. And if you know where the door of that house was could you label
3 that with 2V -- or a V is fine, if you recall.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Now, can you also identify in this photograph the shed that you
6 ran to, if you're able, and put an S on it, please.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Now I'd like you to draw, if you would, a line with an arrow at
9 the end for the -- where the people walked from the first house to the
10 second house.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Now, can you draw a circle at the point where you left the group
13 and ran for the shed. Just put a dot.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Now, could you also tell us approximately where the man with the
16 moustache -- you want to make a correction?
17 A. Yes. [Marks]
18 Q. Can we erase the first one then?
19 Now, can you show us in this photograph where the man with the
20 moustache was standing as you were leaving the house, approximately? And
21 I'd like you to mark that with an M -- M1 for Man 1.
22 A. M1 or just 1?
23 Q. What did you put down there? It's a little confusing now. Can
24 we mark the door again, start over with the door and then where the man
25 with the moustache -- could you mark a V for the door.
Page 1449
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Okay. And I think it might be easier to put an X for the man
3 with the moustache. I'm going to ask you to use a different colour pen
4 at this point and put an X.
5 A. [Marks]
6 MS. SARTORIO: Just for the record the markings thus far have
7 been in blue and now we're using red.
8 Q. So the X is where the man with the moustache was standing.
9 Now, can you mark an X2 where the second -- the man, the blonde
10 man with the flashlight was standing. Red, please.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. And now could you mark an ML where you saw Milan Lukic.
13 A. Which letters?
14 Q. ML for his -- his name.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And was Mitar -- where was Mitar Vasiljevic in relation to Milan
17 Lukic? You can put an MV.
18 A. [Marks]
19 MS. SARTORIO: Now, do we have another colour, a green perhaps?
20 Q. And while we're waiting for that, was there light coming from any
21 of the houses, if you recall?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Are we green at this -- could you put an X at the houses -- or
24 house where you saw light coming from.
25 A. [Marks].
Page 1450
1 Q. And you drew an arrow for the -- is that for the direction where
2 the light was shining?
3 A. Yes. This area was all lit up.
4 Q. Do you know what kind of device it was that was lighting up this
5 area?
6 A. There were torchlights around. As for the light from the house,
7 maybe there were some bulbs there, but it was a proper light.
8 Q. And now before we mark and enter this as an exhibit, can you
9 indicate for us on this map where -- what direction you went? Did you
10 eventually leave the shed?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How long were you in the shed before you left?
13 A. We were there for a brief period of time, five to ten minutes.
14 Q. And using the green marker, which is fine, could you indicate the
15 route that you took after you left the shed.
16 A. Yes. [Marks]
17 Q. Okay. Thank you.
18 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, I'd ask that this photograph be
19 marked as an exhibit in evidence, entered into evidence.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: This will become Exhibit P94, Your Honours.
22 MS. SARTORIO:
23 Q. Now, after you left the shed, approximately how long did you
24 travel to somewhere, and what was your final destination?
25 A. We followed the creek for a while and then crossed over to the
Page 1451
1 right side. There were large garden fences there, tall fences. Having
2 crossed that, we entered a forest.
3 Q. Now, were you with anyone at this time?
4 A. Yes. My sister was with me.
5 Q. And --
6 A. Who had followed me behind the shed. It was myself and my
7 sister.
8 Q. Can you tell us whether you were -- were running at this point or
9 moving -- how fast were you moving from the shed?
10 A. Yes. We moved quickly to flee as quickly as we could, to get as
11 far as possible. However, we didn't know which way to turn. We couldn't
12 go anywhere. They were everywhere in Visegrad. We wanted to reach the
13 forest, feeling it was the safest place. It didn't matter to us much
14 what would happen in the forest, whether we would die or kill ourselves.
15 We were just desperately trying to reach the forest.
16 Q. Now, as you were running away from the shed did you hear
17 anything?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When we entered the shed, we heard shots coming from the house
20 next to the creek. I remember telling my sister, "These people are
21 killing our mother, our mother-in-law, and our brother's two children.
22 They didn't do anything wrong." It hurt so much I wouldn't wish anyone
23 to experience that. It was horrific.
24 MS. SARTORIO: At this time, Your Honours, let me bring up
25 Exhibit P90. And this will be my last few questions, or do you want to
Page 1452
1 take a break?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That is fine. Let us go on.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In line 21 it should
4 be sister-in-law.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we have another Judge, but I think we'll take
6 the break now.
7 MS. SARTORIO: I'm almost finished. Perhaps five minutes, Your
8 Honour.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Let's finish.
10 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. Exhibit P90, please. This will be
11 under seal. It is under seal.
12 Q. Now, Witness, looking at this exhibit that is before you, are you
13 able to read this document and, if so, can you tell me what it is?
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. And what is this?
16 A. These are the names of people who were killed in the house, the
17 names of my family members, relatives who were killed there.
18 Q. And these are the people that were part of the group that left
19 Koritnik?
20 A. Yes. These are all the people I had arrived with from the
21 village and with whom I was in Visegrad.
22 Q. Now, if you could move the first page up a little bit.
23 I'm going to ask you if on this list -- have you seen any of the
24 people on this list since the 14th of June?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1453
1 Q. And if you're going to mention them, could you please mention
2 their pseudonyms if it applies.
3 A. Very well. All right. I have seen four people who survived the
4 burning of the house. It is VG-085, VG-013, VG-038, and VG-078. It is
5 my sister. As well as VG-018.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The first pseudonym
7 is VG-084.
8 MS. SARTORIO:
9 Q. And are you aware of anyone who has seen any of the other persons
10 named on this list since the 14th of June?
11 A. Yes. Two other men survived the house; however, they are no
12 longer among the living. They died their natural deaths.
13 Q. One more question. Witness, at this time I would like you to
14 take a look around the courtroom, please, and look at everyone, and other
15 than myself and Mr. Stewart, Esq and Mr. Groome, Esq, ask you if you
16 recognise anyone in this courtroom.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 MR. CEPIC: Just for the record, usual objection.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's noted.
21 MR. ALARID: And we would join as well, Your Honour.
22 MS. SARTORIO:
23 Q. Take your time and look at everyone.
24 A. Yes. I don't need any additional time.
25 Q. Who do you recognise?
Page 1454
1 A. I know Milan Lukic. I recognise him. He is sitting there next
2 to the first person to the left.
3 Q. Okay. And just so it's more clear, do you see two men on
4 either --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I'm not going to ask -- I think he's --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
8 MS. SARTORIO: I'm not going to ask that question.
9 MR. CEPIC: I was afraid -- I apologise for my fast reaction. I
10 was afraid that something will be leading in this question.
11 MS. SARTORIO: I just want -- it won't be.
12 MR. CEPIC: I apologise.
13 MS. SARTORIO:
14 Q. Now, on the -- do you see four men sitting up in that second row?
15 A. Yes, I do. I see four men.
16 Q. And the two men on the outside on each side, they're wearing blue
17 shirts. Do you see those men?
18 A. Yes, I do. They are not the ones. Milan Lukic is wearing a
19 white shirt. He has a headset, and he's writing something just now.
20 That is Milan Lukic.
21 Q. Is he the man wearing glasses or is he not wearing glasses?
22 A. No, he is not wearing glasses.
23 Q. Are you able to see the colour of his tie, Milan Lukic's tie?
24 A. I can't see his tie. He is bending forward. I cannot see any
25 tie.
Page 1455
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, may the record reflect that the
3 witness has identified Milan Lukic?
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
5 MS. SARTORIO:
6 Q. One last question. Witness 101, is this the man who you saw at
7 the house on Pionirska Street on the 14th of June and who was outside --
8 MR. ALARID: Objection, leading.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. I don't think that's leading. She's
10 just identifying the context.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the man.
12 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. I have no further questions.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now.
14 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: So this is Mr. Alarid now.
17 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:
19 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. VG-101.
20 A. Good afternoon.
21 Q. I apologise that I can't speak to you by your proper name. It
22 seems disrespectful to use these numbers but we have to do this to
23 protect everyone's identity, and so I hope you understand that I don't
24 mean any disrespect by calling you VG-101.
25 A. Yes, that's fine. That's fine.
Page 1456
1 Q. Now --
2 MR. ALARID: Briefly, Your Honour, I would like to go into
3 private session. I'm going to mention a couple names, and I don't have a
4 pseudonym sheet prepared, and so could we go into private session
5 briefly?
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 [Private session]
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
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Page 1457
1
2
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4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 1457-1459 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
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22
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24
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Page 1460
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
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5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
10 MR. ALARID: Could the court assistant please bring up the marked
11 photo P94.
12 Q. Now, looking at the photograph, ma'am, I'd like you to focus on
13 the -- the roof that you marked with a green X and also with a blue S.
14 Do you see that?
15 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Now, isn't it true that this is a single building, a single shed
17 that is hidden by a tree that has grown --
18 A. No, no.
19 Q. So it is two --
20 A. No. These are two smaller structures. It's a shed -- the shed
21 where I ran to and another building that was lit up. So these are two
22 small buildings.
23 Q. Now, ma'am, the home that you wrote a number 1 on, isn't it true
24 there was no electricity in that home?
25 A. Yes, there was no electricity.
Page 1461
1 Q. And isn't it true that the roof that you've marked with a green X
2 is not a home, it is just another shed?
3 A. Yes. It resembled a shed. It was a roofed-in structure that was
4 opened on one side. It may have been a shed or a garage. I don't know
5 exactly.
6 Q. And if there was no electricity in the house at number 1, highly
7 likely there was no electricity in that garage or shed. Isn't that true?
8 A. There was electricity there, and the entire area was lit up. I
9 don't know where the light came from, but it was there.
10 Q. So lit up by like floodlights?
11 A. It seemed as if the entire area had been lit up by way of bulbs
12 that were somewhere there. Plus they had the torches with them. So the
13 entire area was lit up.
14 Q. But a torch is an interesting kind of light, because it only
15 lights up where the torch is pointed. Isn't that true?
16 A. Yes. They used the torches on our way from the large house to
17 where it is marked in blue, because that large house was quite dark, and
18 they wanted us to come out in the lit-up area where they could clearly
19 see us.
20 Q. Now, was there floodlights or buildings lit up anywhere else
21 other than this garage or shed and the torchlights from the assailants?
22 A. Yes, because there were Serb homes on Pionirska Street, and some
23 of the light came from those homes.
24 Q. But they're on the other side and off the photograph, not in
25 view. Isn't that true?
Page 1462
1 A. I don't exactly know where they are. I only know that we could
2 see the light from those houses.
3 Q. And the lights would be just coming out of ordinary windows,
4 bedrooms and what-not and would not have -- would not have flooded the
5 area with light but merely been in the house.
6 A. Yes. The usual lighting in the house.
7 Q. And when you were leaving the home, being told to go to the
8 number 2 house, how many people had left before you, because you
9 indicated you had to put your boots on.
10 A. Yes. I put my boots on. I don't know how many had left before
11 me, but I know that quite a few had and had already gone to the other
12 house.
13 Q. Now, when you say they'd already gone to the other house, would
14 it be fair to say that if they were even gone to the other house they
15 weren't all inside? You weren't walking by yourselves across this open
16 area. Isn't that true?
17 A. Yes. They were reaching the blonde Serb who was in the lit-up
18 area. They first reached him and then proceeded to enter the second
19 house.
20 Q. And those people would have been in between you and the people
21 that you noted as ML and MV. Isn't that true?
22 A. They went ahead of me and reached the lit-up area where the
23 blonde Serb was. At the time, I was halfway there. They, on the other
24 hand, reached the Serb who stood in that lit-up area.
25 Q. And the other people that were in this procession, they helped
Page 1463
1 block the view of your escape. Wouldn't that be true?
2 A. No. No, they didn't block me.
3 Q. I'm not saying block you. I'm saying they blocked, let's say,
4 the blonde Serb from seeing that you were -- and your sister were able to
5 escape.
6 A. They couldn't block my view because they didn't linger there by
7 his side. They immediately proceeded on to the other house. As they
8 reached the man, they went past him and on. They wouldn't stop there.
9 Q. But this was a procession of 70 people, so that procession went
10 on for quite some time. Isn't that true?
11 A. Yes. But we did not all come out of the house in a group. We
12 went by twos or in single file. There wasn't a crowd of people in one
13 small space. We did not obstruct each other.
14 Q. Now, you indicated that they were everywhere. I'm assuming these
15 soldiers. What do you mean "they were everywhere," as you were headed
16 towards the shed?
17 A. Yes. I meant the Serb soldiers, that they were everywhere, in
18 the surrounding streets, on Pionirska Street, in Visegrad in general.
19 Even a check-point, a barricade, was placed at the end of Pionirska
20 Street toward the Rodica hill. They wanted to obstruct free movement
21 there.
22 Q. Was this -- was this barricade there earlier in the day when you
23 proceeded to the Mahala neighbourhood?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So it appears that the barricade was set up to maybe prevent
Page 1464
1 people from escaping down Pionirska Street if other people knew about
2 this tragedy?
3 A. Because two women tried to go to their family's home, and they
4 tried to -- they told them that they couldn't go over there and told them
5 to head back.
6 Q. And this was between the time when you had arrived at Pionirska
7 Street but before it had got dark or when?
8 A. This was at the outset. They wanted to see their homes but
9 weren't able to get past that point, and they came back.
10 Q. And again was that before it got dark and after you arrived?
11 A. Yes. Before it got dark.
12 Q. And so people in the homes were able to leave the homes? There
13 was no guards left all day after Mr. Vasiljevic told the people to go
14 there and gave that one gentleman a piece of paper?
15 A. No. We weren't able to go down the street because barricades had
16 been erected. Had we been able to pass through, we would have gone to
17 the houses of our relatives there, but we weren't able to.
18 Q. So the soldiers had set up barricades after you had been led to
19 Pionirska.
20 A. I don't know when it was exactly that they were erected. The
21 barricades may have been there from before.
22 Q. Well, you didn't notice them walking into the neighbourhood.
23 Isn't that true?
24 A. No. No.
25 Q. Now, when you went to the shed, you went with your sister or did
Page 1465
1 you go with anybody else?
2 A. I didn't go into the shed. I went behind the shed. My sister
3 was following behind without me noticing that. As soon as I slipped away
4 behind the shed, I heard her moving behind me.
5 Q. And isn't it true that your sister stayed close by you that whole
6 day?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. Now, at these barricades, were the soldiers there police or
9 military?
10 A. I don't know. I didn't go. Two other women did and saw that. I
11 didn't see that.
12 Q. Did they mention whether or not they were police or military?
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. Now, you indicated that there were soldiers everywhere. Can you
15 estimate how many soldiers were in town and in and around the Pionirska
16 Street neighbourhood?
17 A. Well, I couldn't possibly know that.
18 Q. I don't -- I'm not trying to get you to name an exact number, but
19 maybe give me a round number like more than a hundred, more than 500, or
20 whatever you might think.
21 A. No. I don't want to speculate, and I don't know the exact
22 number. I don't know.
23 Q. Now, you did see both police and military in town as you were
24 coming in. Isn't that true?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1466
1 Q. And you saw most of the police in the square when you first
2 arrived and at the hotel. Isn't that true?
3 A. Yes. In front of the SUP too. That's where the police
4 headquarters was.
5 Q. Now, after you were able to escape behind the shed following the
6 green line, you're saying that you went down into the creek bottom and
7 moved up? Is that true?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And I look at this photograph that you've marked on, and it
10 appears that the vegetation, the trees and the bushes and the creek are
11 very thick and might have been able to hide your presence down there.
12 A. No. I wasn't hiding there. I didn't want to stay there for
13 another five minutes. I wanted to get away from the place as soon as may
14 be.
15 Q. You misunderstood me. What I meant by that was is that the
16 vegetation would help conceal you as you made your way up the creek.
17 A. Yes. We couldn't be spotted because it was dark. It was
18 night-time.
19 Q. And so the bottom of the creek was not lit up by any lights.
20 Isn't that true?
21 A. No, no. It was dark.
22 Q. And on direct examination the Prosecution -- or you testified
23 that you first started hearing shots when you were still behind the shed.
24 A. No, that's not true. I said that I heard the first shots when I
25 got into the forest.
Page 1467
1 Q. Understood. Okay. I misunderstood you. Now, you're saying you
2 saw Mitar Vasiljevic in front of the house. Are you --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are you certain you're not mistaken?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Well, isn't it true that you'd not seen him there since earlier
7 in the afternoon when he gave the piece of paper to Muho?
8 A. I saw him in the evening, that's true.
9 Q. And that was before it got dark?
10 A. In the evening.
11 Q. Did you hear that Mitar Vasiljevic broke his leg on the 14th of
12 June?
13 A. That's not true.
14 Q. If he broke his leg at 5.00 in the afternoon, is it possible that
15 you're mistaken about seeing him later in the evening, around midnight
16 A. I was not mistaken, and he did not break his leg. That's not
17 true.
18 Q. He never broke his leg?
19 A. No. Well, I don't know. Maybe he did at some point, but he
20 definitely did not on that day.
21 Q. If he broke -- brought in a lot of medical records and doctors
22 and X-rays --
23 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour.
24 MR. ALARID:
25 Q. -- would that change your mind?
Page 1468
1 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour. Again he's asking if a
2 witness brought in medical records. He could -- that's not a proper
3 question.
4 MR. ALARID:
5 Q. It would not change your mind?
6 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour, the same -- I object to
7 the question.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just explain the basis for the objection.
9 MS. SARTORIO: The basis for the objection is it's not -- if he
10 brought in a lot of medical records and doctors and X-rays, and what he's
11 getting at is again what he's been doing in the past, which is putting --
12 putting another witness's statement or what another witness might do
13 before this witness and asking this witness to draw an opinion as to
14 whether if a witness did that it would change her mind. He can put the
15 proposition to the witness that if there were medical records -- hold on
16 one moment. I'm sorry, Your Honour.
17 The basis of the objection is that there's no -- there's no
18 evidence that there were any medical records here, in her testimony or
19 anywhere in the trial for this witness, and he's drawing information out
20 of thin air and putting it to the witness as a hypothetical question.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree, Mr. Alarid. It really invites
22 speculation more than anything else.
23 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honour, I guess one of the reasons I think
24 it's somewhat relevant is because this witness has testified in the Mitar
25 Vasiljevic case --
Page 1469
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I have ruled, so please move on.
2 MR. ALARID:
3 Q. Now, when you did run from area and you ran left to the back of
4 the shed, I'm assuming you covered that ground very, very quickly, as
5 quick as you could.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And once you were behind something that blocked your view, both
8 of them and you, I'm sure you wanted to stay hidden. Isn't that true?
9 A. Before I hurled myself to the side I was standing right there and
10 was able to take in fully what was taking place around me.
11 Q. The question I asked you, ma'am, is when you hurled yourself to
12 the side, you probably made that movement very quickly. Isn't that true?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And when you got -- and when you got behind the shed you wanted
15 to stay hidden and, of course, not be seen by anyone else.
16 A. Yes. I was lying behind the shed.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Can the extra microphones please be switched
18 off.
19 MR. ALARID:
20 Q. And when you -- how far away was this wooded area that you heard
21 the first shot?
22 A. I don't know exactly. We followed the creek but not for long,
23 and then went alongside garden fences before we reached the forest. It
24 wasn't that far off.
25 Q. Was it more than a hundred metres?
Page 1470
1 A. I don't know exactly.
2 Q. Did the shooting seem distant? Something to help you put it in
3 perspective.
4 A. No. It seemed close.
5 Q. Now, I'd like you to describe what everyone was wearing. Can you
6 do that? What was the man in the moustache wearing?
7 A. They had camouflage uniforms on.
8 Q. And what was the primary colour of the camouflage?
9 A. The camouflage uniforms had a mixture of yellow and brown.
10 Q. Was the man with the moustache wearing anything on his head?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was he armed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the man that you say was Mitar Vasiljevic, how was he
15 dressed?
16 A. He had an olive-grey uniform and a black overcoat reaching all
17 the way to the ground and a black hat.
18 Q. Now, it had been raining earlier and he was wearing that overcoat
19 because of the rain. Isn't that true?
20 A. I don't know, and I'm not particularly interested in why he was
21 wearing that.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please don't ask questions like that. As you
23 know, the witness can't answer them.
24 MR. ALARID:
25 Q. You were all wet because of walking in the rain that day. Isn't
Page 1471
1 that true?
2 A. Yes. It rained the whole night and the whole day.
3 Q. Was it still raining at midnight
4 A. Yes, it was, the whole night. As I was fleeing with my sister
5 through the forest, it rained throughout the night.
6 Q. And was it actually raining while people were moving from one
7 house to another?
8 A. Yes, it was.
9 Q. Now, when the people were first told to move from one house to
10 the other you said that there was panic and confusion, and you went to
11 see if you could jump off a balcony. Were you upstairs or downstairs
12 when the men first came?
13 A. We were on the floor of the house.
14 Q. The first floor, ma'am, or the second floor?
15 A. The second floor.
16 Q. And so you were up there -- were you asleep when they first
17 arrived or were you awake?
18 A. No, we were not asleep. We were awake.
19 Q. Now, the moment it got dark in that house, I'm assuming that
20 there was no light, and between that time no one came back after dark,
21 between midnight
22 A. Excuse me. I did not understand.
23 Q. It was a bad question. I apologise. There was no electricity in
24 the house; correct?
25 A. There was no electricity.
Page 1472
1 Q. And I'm assuming -- what time did it get dark?
2 A. It started getting dark around 6.00 or 7.00. I don't remember
3 exactly.
4 Q. And between the time it got dark and the time the men came to
5 move the people, had any one of those men come back in the middle, after
6 dark?
7 A. Yes. They came to tell us to move from one house to the other.
8 Q. And before that time and in between when it got dark, did anyone
9 come back to the house for any reason?
10 A. Excuse me, could you please repeat? I do not understand the
11 question.
12 Q. Between the time when the men came and asked people to move from
13 one house to another and the time it got dark, did anyone come back to
14 the house? Basically, after dark did anyone come back until you were
15 moved?
16 A. Before it got dark is when they came, and just as it was starting
17 to get dark they left. The next time they returned it was already dark.
18 Q. And that's at the end when they asked people to move?
19 A. No. They came once we arrived in the house. Lukic was there
20 with another three Serbs right after we got into the house, both before
21 it was dark and after.
22 Q. Now, when the car grow up -- drove up, you heard that it was --
23 you heard it because it was very loud?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Had this car -- had this loud noise -- had you heard it before?
Page 1473
1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. Do you remember what kind of car it was? Did you ever see it?
3 A. No.
4 Q. At the end of the night was there more than four Serbs at the
5 house?
6 A. There were four Serbs.
7 Q. And that's it?
8 A. Sorry, the big house?
9 Q. When you were asked as a group to move from the big house to the
10 other house, there was just the four Serbs?
11 A. In front of the big house and the other house I could see four
12 people. Other victims saw -- I don't know. I saw four.
13 Q. And that's all you ever saw that evening was four?
14 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honours. Asked and answered
15 several times.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Move on, Mr. Alarid.
17 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Avoid comments.
19 MR. ALARID: Did I make a comment, Your Honour? I apologise.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe the question was in the form of a
21 comment. That's my interpretation of it. So just move on.
22 MR. ALARID: Okay.
23 Q. Now, in your direct examination a little bit earlier, you stated
24 that, "We all know who those men were and what they were. We knew what
25 the Serbian army was doing."
Page 1474
1 What did you mean by that?
2 A. We knew what they had been doing, that they were killing Muslims,
3 expelling them from towns and other villages. The -- we knew they had
4 the power in their hands as well as the weapons, that they could do with
5 the Muslims whatever they wanted to and they were.
6 Q. Before that date had you heard stories and rumours about Milan
7 Lukic or Mitar Vasiljevic?
8 A. Yes. A man from the group spoke with Mitar and knew him well.
9 There was another woman who spoke with Mitar as well. He told her about
10 her brother, Osman Kurspahic. He told her that he was taken away and
11 transferred to Sarajevo
12 to Kladanj and that she could see for herself that her brother was still
13 alive. However, things did not go in that direction.
14 Q. Was Mitar Vasiljevic armed that evening?
15 A. Yes, he was.
16 Q. When you first saw him in the daylight was he armed?
17 A. Yes, he was.
18 Q. Now, during the time in the house from when you first got there
19 in the afternoon all the way into the evening, did your sister stay with
20 you the whole time or did you get separated at any time?
21 A. No. We were together all the time.
22 Q. Isn't it true that none of the men in the house used names with
23 each other to identify each other?
24 A. They may have been using names, but I didn't hear them.
25 Q. You didn't hear anyone come in and introduce themselves as if ...
Page 1475
1 A. No, I did not.
2 Q. Now, you indicated that you knew Milan Lukic because you went to
3 school with him. Isn't that true?
4 A. Yes. I knew him very well.
5 Q. Now, you were a grade behind him. Isn't that true?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But would it be fair to say that you hadn't seen him since
8 secondary school?
9 A. I didn't see him frequently, but I did.
10 Q. Well, can you recall the last time you would have seen Milan
11 Lukic in town before the war?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And if we could use April of 1992 as when the war started, when
14 was the first time you had seen Milan Lukic or who you believed to be
15 Milan Lukic after the war?
16 A. I saw him on the 14th of June in Visegrad, in Pionirska Street
17 Q. And so going backwards in time, can you recall the circumstances
18 that would have been the last time you saw Milan Lukic before the war?
19 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, asked and answered.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let her answer it.
21 Can you remember when last you saw Milan Lukic before the war?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.
23 MR. ALARID:
24 Q. Now, you indicated on direct examination that his appearance had
25 changed perhaps slightly but the face was still the same. What kind of
Page 1476
1 things had changed slightly?
2 A. While he attended school he was thinner. Later, he appeared to
3 have gained some weight. However, the features of his face remain the
4 same. The rest is the same.
5 Q. What about his haircut?
6 A. The same.
7 Q. And so when you knew him in high school he had the same haircut
8 that he had in Pionirska Street?
9 A. Perhaps slightly different. When he was at school, his hair was
10 parted to one side, but at Pionirska Street it didn't appear to be the
11 case. It was changed slightly.
12 Q. Isn't it true that Milan Lukic as a young man had long hair at
13 all times?
14 A. No, never.
15 Q. Now, when you went to school with Milan Lukic, did you guys have
16 the same homeroom teacher as in primary school?
17 A. The same teachers. There were two or three different teachers,
18 but it's the same people.
19 Q. Isn't it true that there are two shifts at school?
20 A. Yes, but sometimes we would be together in the first or the
21 second shift.
22 Q. And what year did you finish your high school or secondary
23 school?
24 A. I finished it in 1986.
25 Q. And do you remember your homeroom teacher in high school?
Page 1477
1 A. In high school we didn't have a single homeroom teacher. We had
2 different teachers. You have homeroom teachers in elementary school
3 only.
4 Q. Now in primary school did you go all the time in Prelovo?
5 A. Yes. The teacher's name was Dragan Simic from Prelovo.
6 Q. And is that was from which grade to which grade?
7 A. Up to the fourth grade, between the first and the fourth grade it
8 was Dragan Simic. From the fifth up to the eighth there were different
9 teachers.
10 Q. And isn't it true that some children from Rujiste went to
11 different primary school for the first four years?
12 A. No. No, because the school in Prelovo was just next door
13 basically. It was the closest school to them.
14 Q. To Rujiste?
15 A. Yes. Rujiste is close to Prelovo. The school was almost at
16 their doorstep. Rujiste is close to Prelovo.
17 Q. How far is the primary school Prelovo to your village in
18 Koritnik?
19 A. Five or six kilometres.
20 Q. And how far -- what about Klasnik? Was there a school in
21 Klasnik?
22 A. I don't remember. If there was one, it was for the children of
23 Klasnik, not for the children of Rujiste. Klasnik was rather far away
24 from Prelovo.
25 Q. And isn't true that Rujiste is near Klasnik, only three or four
Page 1478
1 kilometres away?
2 A. No. Rujiste is closer to Prelovo than Klasnik.
3 Q. Did you know a teacher named Edina Bosno?
4 A. Yes, from Prelovo.
5 Q. Are you sure she wasn't in Klasnik?
6 A. She may have been, but she taught the children from Klasnik.
7 Q. And isn't it true that the children in the machine school went to
8 school at an opposite shift than you did in secondary school?
9 A. There were two shifts, the first and the second. We saw each
10 other. Sometimes we share the same shift, sometimes not, but we always
11 saw each other.
12 Q. Now, of the gentlemen that first came earlier in the day, you
13 said that there was a young boy, tall and gangly. Did you recognise this
14 boy?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you know his name?
17 A. No, I did not. It was the first time I saw him.
18 Q. And I asked you if you recognised him, and at first you said yes.
19 A. No. I said I did not recognise him. I keep saying that, that I
20 did not know him.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: The transcript does have you answering that
22 question with yes.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I said that I didn't know the
24 youngest of them. I said that he was tall, thin, and the youngest of the
25 group.
Page 1479
1 MR. ALARID:
2 Q. Now, when Mitar Vasiljevic was seen at the beginning before you
3 went to the Mahala neighbourhood, was he armed then as well?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, before that, you were being abused by police officers at the
6 hotel. Isn't that true?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How could you tell they were police officers versus other
9 soldiers?
10 A. Because policemen wore blue camouflage uniforms. It was police
11 uniform -- it had been police uniform since before the war.
12 Q. And the -- everyone at the hotel was wearing blue camouflage?
13 A. No. There were those in other coloured camouflage uniforms as
14 well as the uniforms of the former JNA. There were several different
15 types of uniforms.
16 Q. Can you estimate how many men and soldiers comprised this group
17 of people?
18 A. No. There were many going in and out of the hotel, going up and
19 down the street. I did not count them. I was in fear.
20 Q. And I'm not asking you to count them. I'm asking more of a round
21 and rough estimate.
22 A. No. All I know is that there were many. I don't know how many.
23 Q. When Mitar Vasiljevic first approached your group, how close were
24 you able to get to him, next to him?
25 A. We were quite close, perhaps 10 to 20 metres. He came to the
Page 1480
1 garden, stood in front of us and told us to go to Pionirska Street.
2 Q. Did you -- did he ever appear intoxicated or drunk?
3 A. Well, I do know he was an alcoholic. As to whether he was
4 inebriated at that moment, I don't know.
5 Q. And how had you heard that he was an alcoholic? Had you known
6 that before that day, or did that come to your attention after that day?
7 A. No. I used to see him at school -- at the school always drunk.
8 His wife Milojka worked in a shop called Granap in Prelovo. He was
9 always there, always drunk. That's how I used to see him.
10 Q. When you describe someone as drunk -- I mean, some people will
11 drink and they'll look fine. How would you describe appearing drunk?
12 A. I don't want to describe that. I'm not interested in that.
13 Q. Well, I'd ask you just to describe Mitar when he was drunk.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid. Mr. Alarid, the cross-examination
15 appears to be meandering and wandering.
16 MR. ALARID: Well, to be honest, Your Honour, I'm going through
17 her prior testimony somewhat, and there were some references in the prior
18 testimony, even though they didn't come out quite as much today. Of
19 course I'm going through Mitar Vasiljevic's testimony, and there was some
20 descriptions as to alcoholism and what-not, and I was just wondering.
21 I'm sort of just moving backwards and hoping to finish relatively soon.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: How soon?
23 MR. ALARID: When are we taking a break, Your Honour?
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: 5.35.
25 MR. ALARID: Probably a little bit after the break, but not that
Page 1481
1 long. I don't think I'll go to the end of the evening.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but be a bit more focused in the
3 questioning.
4 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour.
5 Q. Now, how far -- how far away is the hotel from the square where
6 you first encountered police?
7 A. It's right close to the square. The hotel is on the square.
8 Q. Okay. And so was it the same police that you first encountered
9 entering the square that were also at the hotel throwing insults at you
10 and your family?
11 A. Some policemen were in front of the SUP. Another group of
12 policemen awaited us in front of the hotel. I don't know whether it was
13 the same people, though, or two completely different groups of policemen.
14 Q. Now, you stated on direct examination that they were discussing
15 where you should go, one of two options. Did it appear --
16 A. Yes. They shouted at us, telling us to go to the Muslim houses
17 there, and they were discussing amongst themselves where they should send
18 us.
19 Q. Did it appear that they knew you were coming, or was your arrival
20 on the square a surprise?
21 A. No. To me, it appeared that they had known we would come. They
22 seemed to wanted to --
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
24 MR. CEPIC: I apologise, Your Honour. Again just one
25 intervention. In transcript I cannot see -- I think that witness
Page 1482
1 mentioned location Bikavac, but I cannot see anywhere in the transcript.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was that in her last answer?
3 MR. CEPIC: Before the last answer, before the last one. About
4 the locations and options.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you mention Bikavac, Witness?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: In relation to what? Would you just tell us.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a neighbourhood called Bikavac
9 in Visegrad close to the hotel. It is a neighbourhood of Visegrad called
10 Bikavac.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
12 MR. ALARID:
13 Q. Now, I'm going to take you back to the beginning of when this --
14 you left your village. Isn't true that it was actually a police officer
15 that came to you in the village and told you all that you had to leave,
16 threatening you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And was -- can you name that police officer?
19 A. Yes. His name is Radomir Djuric.
20 Q. And isn't it true that Ilija Gavrilovic was also a police
21 officer?
22 A. Ilija went to Visegrad before we did with another person by the
23 name of Dragomir Grujic. They took my relative's car and went there
24 before we did. When we were at Greben, they told us, "You, the Turks,
25 should move. You need to go to Visegrad, and no one is to leave it
Page 1483
1 alive."
2 Q. How did they come in possession of your relative's car?
3 A. They just took it. They came to the village and took the car.
4 Q. And when they took -- was this before they asked you to leave?
5 Was this before the 13th?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How long before?
8 A. I don't remember how long before, but I do know for a fact that
9 they seized it. Other than that, they would come to the village and
10 cherry-picked our possessions, just take them over to their own houses
11 under the pretext that they would be taking care of the stuff while we
12 were away.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, endeavour to finish by the break,
14 which is at 25 minutes to 6.00.
15 MR. ALARID:
16 Q. Do you know who the chief of police was at this time?
17 A. Drago Gavrilovic was.
18 Q. Was he also a -- was he also a member --
19 A. I think.
20 Q. Was he also a member of the SDS party and the Crisis Staff?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when these people, these police were cherry-picking your
23 possessions, how long had this been going on before you were forced from
24 your homes?
25 A. It was not the policemen. It was our neighbours, Serbs, who
Page 1484
1 would be taking our belongings, and it was throughout that day, the 13th
2 of June, that they kept coming to our homes and taking stuff away back to
3 their homes.
4 Q. And did this include Dragomir Gavrilovic? Drago, I mean.
5 A. Yes. Dragomir.
6 Q. Did it also include Drago?
7 A. No. No.
8 Q. When they told you that they were -- you had to leave your homes,
9 isn't it true that they told you it was other Serbs from nearby villages
10 putting pressure? Is that what they told you?
11 A. Yes. They said that the Serbs from Prelovo were exerting
12 pressure on them, that they would be coming to our village and that we
13 could no longer stay there.
14 Q. And when Ilija had taken the automobile from your cousin, had
15 they given any receipt or confirmation that they had in fact taken the
16 car?
17 A. No. No, nothing of the sort.
18 MR. ALARID: That would conclude my examination, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
20 MR. ALARID: And the only thing I would do as a final matter,
21 although it doesn't require the witness, is that we introduce the
22 witness's statement to the OTP, 21st of March, 2001, which has been
23 uploaded as 1D10-1480, and the prior testimony of the -- trial testimony
24 of the witness has been 1D10-1498.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You want to have those admitted?
Page 1485
1 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, they will become Exhibits number
4 1D36 and 1D37 respectively, both under seal.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
6 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. No questions for this
7 witness.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Sartorio.
9 MS. SARTORIO: May I have one moment, Your Honour? May I have
10 one moment? Thank you.
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MS. SARTORIO: Just a couple of questions, Your Honour.
13 Re-examination by Ms. Sartorio:
14 Q. Witness, you were asked about a person named Edina Bosno. Do you
15 recall being asked about that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And could you tell us again who this person is?
18 A. I heard that she was a teacher and that she resided in the
19 village of Prelovo.
20 Q. Do you know what school she taught at?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you know if she taught any kids -- any children who came from
23 Klasnik?
24 A. She probably did, because she did not teach in Prelovo.
25 Q. Thank you.
Page 1486
1 MS. SARTORIO: No further questions.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank
3 you for coming to the Tribunal to give it, and you may now leave.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, what is your position with
7 witnesses?
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we had expected that this witness would
9 take the majority of the day. The next witness is Mitar Vasiljevic. I
10 know that Mr. Domazet was speaking with him all day today. I'm not sure
11 if Mr. Domazet has concluded his discussions with him. I can attempt to
12 check that over the break if Your Honour would wish to begin his evidence
13 in the last session. I expect, Your Honour, that my examination --
14 actually, I know my examination will take an hour and a half, and I think
15 we will be able to conclude it tomorrow and the next day, but I'll leave
16 it to the Court as whether you want me to inquire whether he's available
17 in the next session.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll stick to the schedule. We'll hear
19 him tomorrow, in which case we are adjourned.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.28 p.m.
21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day
22 of September, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.
23
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