080915ED

Page 1646

1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-35

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit, and you may begin, Mr. Groome.

5 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Examination by Mr. Groome:

7 Q. VG-35, the Court has just ordered a change in the way in which

8 you will testify pursuant to my conveying the information about your

9 wishes about how this testimony might be presented. Your face will be

10 distorted, and we will refer to you at all times by VG-35, and certain

11 portions of your testimony will be referred to in closed session.

12 Can I ask that we begin your testimony by having you take a look

13 at a sheet of paper. I'd ask that you look at that and tell us, is that

14 your name on that sheet of paper?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And is that your correct date of birth?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could I ask that you sign your name to the document.

19 A. [Marks]

20 MR. GROOME: And after it has been shown to Defence counsel and

21 the Chamber, I would tender it as an exhibit under seal.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P100, under

23 seal.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, with permission of the Court, I would

Page 1647

1 like to use leading questions to explore some of the background matters

2 of the witness's evidence and matters which are not in controversy.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

4 MR. GROOME: Mr. Cepic is on his feet, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we do have a matter of

7 principle to raise in relation to leading questions, generally speaking.

8 Thank you.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, on all questions? I mean, there are

10 some questions that I can imagine in respect of which you would not be

11 raising any issue, some background issues. But if it is your -- if

12 you're really saying that you don't wish any leading questions at all,

13 then that, of course, is something which we'd have to take account of.

14 MR. CEPIC: [In English] Your Honour, with your leave, as far as I

15 understood, this witness will testify viva voce, but this witness also

16 has got two statements which she gave to the OTP in 1998 and 2001, so

17 that confused me.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Prosecutor, in the circumstances, proceed in

19 the ordinary way.

20 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

21 Q. VG-35, I want to draw your attention to the spring of 1992. Do

22 you recall when the Uzice Corps entered -- the Uzice Corps of the

23 Yugoslav People's Army arrived in Visegrad?

24 A. Yes, but it was in May.

25 Q. And what did you and your family do upon their arrival?

Page 1648

1 A. I fled from Visegrad.

2 Q. Where did you flee to?

3 A. To Medjedja.

4 Q. And did there come a time when you returned to Visegrad?

5 A. Several days later.

6 Q. Prior to returning to Visegrad, did you receive information about

7 the situation in Visegrad?

8 A. Yes. They told us that the Uzice Corps had arrived and that we

9 could all go back home.

10 Q. And were you told anything about the security situation at that

11 point after the Uzice Corps arrived in Visegrad?

12 A. They said that it was safe to return to our homes and to our work

13 assignments.

14 Q. Where were you working at the time?

15 A. In a company.

16 Q. Can you tell us the name of the company?

17 A. TMP, Elplin.

18 Q. And what was the general nature of the business of this company?

19 A. We fixed gas tanks.

20 Q. And can you tell the Chamber where in the town the main office of

21 this company was located?

22 A. It was past the bus stop, and there was Centrotrans there where

23 they had all the buses, and then once past that point, that's where my

24 company was located.

25 Q. When you returned to your company, did you -- was your manager or

Page 1649

1 your superior the same person as it was before the time you left?

2 A. No.

3 Q. What was the name of your new superior?

4 A. Furtula Strajin.

5 Q. And what was Furtula Strajin's ethnicity?

6 A. He was a Serb.

7 Q. And did Mr. Furtula ever issue you with a piece of paper or

8 document after you returned?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And can you summarise what that document was? What was the

11 purpose of that document?

12 A. These were the certificates that were issued to the Muslims. It

13 was a pass for me to get to work every day.

14 Q. And would you have to present that pass on your way to work?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And where would you have to present that pass?

17 A. Just before I reached the tunnel. That was near the old railway

18 bridge.

19 Q. In the period of time after you returned to work, did you become

20 increasingly concerned with your security and your ability to travel back

21 and forth to work?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And were there a number of events that caused you this increased

24 concern for the security of you and your family?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1650

1 Q. Can I draw your attention to an event -- did there come a time

2 when someone brought a weapon into the company and this caused you some

3 concern?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you please describe the type of weapon and the circumstances

6 surrounding it being brought into your place of business.

7 A. A Serb walked into my office carrying a weapon. It was a weapon

8 with legs. I'm not sure what you call that, a machine-gun, a rifle,

9 something like that. I'm not really well-versed when it comes to

10 weapons, but it was some sort of a weapon. He brought coupons for food,

11 lunch coupons, and put them on my table, and he wanted money in exchange

12 for those, which was something that I couldn't accommodate. Then Furtula

13 went out and walked back with him to the office, but the machine-gun

14 remained on my small side table. The door shut, and I couldn't hear what

15 they were saying. He stayed for some time and then left the office --

16 Q. VG-35 --

17 A. -- but the weapon remained on my desk.

18 Q. Can I ask you, during this period, did you know a person by the

19 name of Ekrem Dzafic?

20 A. Dzafic, yes.

21 Q. And did he also work in this company?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And were there times that you travelled back and forth from your

24 home to work in Ekrem Dzafic's car?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1651

1 Q. Was there another occasion what you received a call from your

2 home regarding people who had entered your house?

3 A. Yes. I got a call from my son.

4 Q. And how old was your son at the time?

5 A. Not even 9. He was 8 and a half. He hadn't yet turned 9.

6 Q. And what did your son tell you was happening at your home while

7 you were at work?

8 A. He said, "Mum, when will you come home? Our place is full of

9 soldiers."

10 Q. And did you have another child as well as this boy?

11 A. Another son. I had two sons.

12 Q. And was he younger than this son that you've mentioned?

13 A. Yes. The other one had just turned 2 at Visegrad.

14 Q. And were both children frightened by this -- the presence of

15 soldiers in the house?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, VG-35, was there a particular final event that made you

18 realise you no longer could go to work at your company?

19 A. Yes. It was a difficult moment. It was difficult for me to hear

20 my son cry. It caused me a great deal of pain. I looked out the window

21 and the mosque was on fire near the Rzavski bridge.

22 Q. And what did you conclude after watching the mosque in the town

23 burning?

24 A. I realised that the Muslims were not meant to stay around any

25 longer, and neither was I.

Page 1652

1 Q. And after that day, did you ever return to work?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. For what period of time did you return to work after that day?

4 A. Several times Strajin Furtula would send a car for me, a company

5 car, then driven by Piro Andric.

6 Q. And then at some point did you cease going to work?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, at some point in time, did your husband flee Bikavac because

9 he was fearful that Muslim men were being taken away and killed?

10 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat that for me?

11 Q. Did there come a time when your husband left Visegrad?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Around when -- around what period of time did your husband leave

14 Visegrad?

15 A. He left in May.

16 Q. And why did he leave?

17 A. He left for work.

18 Q. Did you remain in Visegrad with your two sons?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And did anyone else remain behind in your household?

21 A. My father-in-law and mother-in-law remained.

22 Q. Was there a time you attempted to leave on a convoy with your

23 father-in-law, your mother-in-law, and your two children but were

24 refused?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1653

1 Q. Why were you not allowed to leave Visegrad on that convoy?

2 A. Because my father-in-law and mother-in-law were not yet 65.

3 Q. Now, I'd like to draw your attention to the 26th of June and ask

4 you, did there come a time during that day when you saw a Serb soldier

5 outside your house?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us what area in Visegrad you lived?

8 A. Ban Polje, also known as Bikavac.

9 Q. And how many people were in front of your house on the 26th of

10 June?

11 A. There was I, my children, my father-in-law, my mother-in-law, my

12 sister-in-law.

13 Q. Okay. With respect to this Serb soldier, how many Serb soldiers

14 were in front of your house on the 26th of June?

15 A. Milan Lukic was there with an --

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the

17 expression.

18 MR. GROOME:

19 Q. Could I ask you to --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please repeat what you have just said for the

21 benefit of the interpreter.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was Milan Lukic with a small

23 boy.

24 MR. GROOME:

25 Q. VG-35, I notice that you're trembling. Are you okay?

Page 1654

1 A. Yes, I'm okay.

2 Q. Feel free to put on your jacket if you're cold in this courtroom,

3 or if there's any other way we can make you comfortable, please let us

4 know.

5 How old was the boy that was in front of the house?

6 A. Very young. 15, perhaps. I can't remember, but it was a young

7 boy.

8 Q. Now, your evidence is that it was Milan Lukic. How did you know

9 the name of the person who was in front of the house?

10 A. That person introduced himself.

11 Q. And did you have a conversation with that person?

12 A. Yes, with Milan.

13 Q. Can you please tell us what he said to you and what, if anything,

14 you said to him.

15 A. Milan asked me about my husband. I said my husband had left for

16 work and that was all I knew. That's what I said. He asked me where I

17 got my house, where I was working, that sort of thing. I told him.

18 Q. Was there any conversation about your workplace and your superior

19 at work?

20 A. I told him where I worked, and then he told me he knew all about

21 me because Strajin Furtula had told him. I said, "I have no reason to

22 tell you any lies. What I'm telling you is the truth."

23 Q. Did there come a time when you and him discussed both your age

24 and his age?

25 A. Yes. Milan told me that he was born in 1967. I told him about

Page 1655

1 my age. I'm older than him.

2 Q. Approximately how long did this conversation last?

3 A. Not long. I was scared when I heard his name. It was difficult

4 for me to keep track of the time. Half an hour, perhaps, but I can't be

5 specific.

6 Q. Why were you scared when you heard his name?

7 A. I'd heard about him before, saying that he was doing some bad

8 things in Visegrad.

9 Q. And what time of the day did this conversation take place?

10 A. It was in the afternoon, as far as I remember.

11 Q. And how far away was he from you during the time that you were

12 having this conversation?

13 A. He was outside my house. There was a table made of wood outside

14 and a plum tree right next to it. He was seated at this table, and I was

15 squatting nearby. I didn't sit down with him.

16 Q. And approximately how far were you where you were squatting from

17 where he was sitting at the table?

18 A. 10 to 20 centimetres, no more than that.

19 Q. And during the half-hour period of time that you've testified you

20 had this conversation, were you able to see his face clearly?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How did he arrive at your house, if you know?

23 A. On foot.

24 Q. Did there come a time when he left your house?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1656

1 Q. And how did he leave your house?

2 A. He just left. He walked away, as far as the junction, and I

3 don't know where he went from there, or how.

4 Q. And the boy he was speaking to, what was -- the 15-year-old boy,

5 what was his ethnicity, if you know?

6 A. He was a Serb.

7 Q. And did that boy remain when Milan Lukic left, or did he leave

8 with Milan Lukic?

9 A. He left with him.

10 Q. Now, during the course of your conversation with him, did he ask

11 you questions regarding the whereabouts of your husband?

12 A. When I told him I knew nothing about that, he said, "I'll check

13 and I'll be back to tell you. If you're lying to me, I'll kill you."

14 And I said, "I'm never afraid of the truth."

15 Q. And did he say that he would be back that day?

16 A. He said he'd be back that evening, but he didn't return that

17 evening.

18 Q. Now, I think it may be helpful to the Chamber if you explain a

19 little bit about the location of the different houses in the area in

20 which you lived. And my first question to you in this regard is whether

21 in 1992 your street continued in both directions, or did it end abruptly

22 shortly after your house?

23 A. The streets started from a place we called the ditch up to the

24 town centre. From the ditch to my junction, where my house was, there

25 was a path leading there. There was one house first, and then my house

Page 1657

1 was next, and there was this path leading to another two homes, but

2 that's where it ended.

3 MR. GROOME: Could I ask the court officer or the usher to please

4 call up 65 ter 175.10, a blank copy of that exhibit.

5 Q. If someone were to stand in the front doorway of your house,

6 would the end of the street, this abrupt end of the road, be to the left

7 or to the right? So standing in the house doorway looking out towards

8 the road, would it end towards the left or to the right?

9 A. The end of the road from where I'm standing right now was on the

10 left, between the two houses you can see there.

11 Q. I'm going to ask you to make some marks on this diagram, I'd ask

12 maybe with the assistance of the Chamber.

13 MR. GROOME: No, the photograph is fine as it is.

14 Q. I'd ask you to let me finish my question to you before you make

15 any mark. The first mark I'd like you to make is, would you please put

16 "VG-35" on the bottom of the photograph in front of you so that we know

17 that the marks on this were made by you.

18 A. Here, you mean? Give me a second, please.

19 MR. GROOME: Is it not working? Your Honour, I have a hard copy.

20 Perhaps, again, we'll go -- try the tried and true methods.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we can.

22 MR. GROOME: Can we place a hard copy of this same exhibit on the

23 ELMO.

24 Q. VG-35, we're going to ask you to -- we're going to put an actual

25 photograph to the table to your right, and then we'll ask you to make the

Page 1658

1 markings on this.

2 While that's being done, may I proceed and ask you a few

3 questions. Are you familiar with the house owned by Meho Aljic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And where is it in relation to your house?

6 A. First, I'll explain where my house is.

7 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you to take a look at the photograph on

8 the table to your right. Take your time to take a look at it and see if

9 you can recognise -- recognise what we're looking at.

10 Before you make any marks, I'd ask you just to answer a few

11 questions. Please don't make any marks yet.

12 Is this a depiction or photograph of the Bikavac area in

13 Visegrad?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can I ask you to write "VG-35" on the bottom of the photograph to

16 indicate that it's you that's making the markings on the photograph? The

17 usher will assist you.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Can I now ask you to circle the house that you lived in at the

20 time and place "VG-35" inside that circle.

21 A. [Marks]

22 MR. GROOME: If the usher might move the photograph over a little

23 bit. We can't see where the witness has made a mark. I'm sorry, are we

24 now going to try it in e-court? Perhaps we'll just proceed since we've

25 already begun to mark this up. Perhaps the director could zoom out a

Page 1659

1 little bit, and we can see the house that the witness circled.

2 Q. Now, I'd ask you to -- on this photograph, are you able to

3 indicate where the Aljic family lived?

4 A. It looks a bit different here, the house.

5 Q. If you're not able to -- I mean, this photograph was taken

6 recently. If you're not able to clearly identify where the house is,

7 then I'd ask you not to mark the diagram. Please only do it if you are

8 certain.

9 A. It was round about here.

10 Q. I'd ask you to draw that circle.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. And would you put an "MA" -- an "MA" in that circle.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. And the last house that I'll ask you to identify, if you know, do

15 you know where the Turjacanin family lived? And if you do, circle that

16 house, please.

17 A. [Marks] This one, I think.

18 Q. I'd ask you to put a "T" to indicate that location.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Now, you've given testimony about seeing Milan Lukic in front of

21 your house on the 26th of June. Can I ask you to draw a circle and put

22 "ML" inside that circle to indicate where it was that Milan Lukic was at

23 the time you had the conversation you just testified to.

24 A. Outside the house. He was standing outside the door. The door

25 is on this side.

Page 1660

1 Q. And I see you've put an "ML" in front of that --

2 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Groome, we don't seem to get these

3 markings. I don't see them on my screen.

4 MR. GROOME: It's very faint. Could I ask -- I'm finished the

5 witness with those diagrams. Could I ask they be shown to the Judges and

6 see whether they are legible or whether the ink is -- the ink pen has a

7 problem.

8 Q. Those are all the markings, VG-35, I'd ask you to make. Could I

9 ask that it be shown to the Chamber to see if the Chamber's able to

10 decipher it. If not, then we could try again on e-court.

11 MR. GROOME: Will that be sufficient, Your Honour? Yes, okay.

12 Q. VG-35, I want to now draw your attention to the 27th of June,

13 1992, to the early morning hours. Did something unusual happen in the

14 morning of the 27th of June, 1992?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where were you -- approximately what time did something occur at

17 your house on the 27th?

18 A. Right after 5.00 in the morning.

19 Q. And where were you at 5.00, at the time?

20 A. We were all asleep in the room.

21 Q. And what occurred?

22 A. Somebody was banging on the door.

23 Q. And did someone from your household answer the door?

24 A. My mother-in-law.

25 Q. And what happened when she answered the door?

Page 1661

1 A. Milan Lukic barged in together with Sredoje, and there was

2 someone else, but I can't tell you who.

3 Q. And what happened when Milan -- you mentioned Sredoje. Who are

4 you referring to when you say "Sredoje"?

5 A. Sredoje Lukic.

6 Q. And did you know him prior to this day?

7 A. I know he worked in the police.

8 Q. And were you aware that your -- whether or not your husband knew

9 him prior to this day?

10 A. I knew.

11 Q. And did your husband know Sredoje Lukic prior to this day?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, is the

14 entire direct examination going to be through leading questions?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is leading about the question "Did your

17 husband know Sredoje Lukic prior to this day?"

18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was not this last

19 question that's in issue, but most of the questions so far have been

20 leading.

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would disagree.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, why have you not objected? I did not

23 grant Mr. Groome permission to ask leading questions. I told him to

24 proceed in the ordinary way. If you find a question is leading, then you

25 can object to it.

Page 1662

1 Let us proceed.

2 MR. GROOME:

3 Q. VG-35, how was it that your husband knew Sredoje Lukic?

4 A. My husband was a waiter. Sredoje patronised the hotel where my

5 husband worked. My husband waited at his table, brought him coffee.

6 Q. Did you know Sredoje Lukic by name?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When the men came into the house, what room of the house were you

9 in?

10 A. The bedroom.

11 Q. And what happened when they entered the bedroom?

12 A. They started saying provocative, nasty things. If you really

13 want me to be specific, I can.

14 Q. I would ask you to say, as best you can remember, what it was

15 they said. And I'd ask you, can you identify the person who said a

16 particular statement rather than using the phrase "they"?

17 A. Milan.

18 Q. And what did Milan say?

19 A. "Look at them sleeping. Good pussy here. They need fucking."

20 He was laughing, and I was speechless. I didn't utter a word.

21 Q. How far away was he from you when he made this statement?

22 A. He was so close, as someone can be close to you when they pull

23 the covers off you. We slept fully dressed in our street clothes.

24 Q. When you said -- the record records you as saying, as someone who

25 pulled the covers off you. Did someone pull the bed covers off of you?

Page 1663

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And who was that?

3 A. Milan Lukic.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic is on his feet.

5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry. Can my

6 learned friend Mr. Groome give us a reference for these allegations we've

7 heard just now?

8 MR. GROOME: I'm not clear what ...

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yeah, what do you mean by a reference?

10 MR. CEPIC: Page number when the witness said that Milan Lukic

11 pulled covers off.

12 MR. GROOME: I believe it's 20 -- do you see it now?

13 Q. Where was Sredoje Lukic at the time Milan Lukic pulled the covers

14 off of you?

15 A. If I remember well, he was standing behind Milan.

16 Q. How long did they remain in the bedroom of your house?

17 A. When fear gets hold of your mind, you can't really tell the time.

18 Maybe 15 minutes, maybe half an hour.

19 Q. Was there anything obstructing your view of Milan Lukic's face

20 during this time that he was in your house?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you recognise him as the same person you had a conversation

23 with in front of your house the day before?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was there anything obstructing Sredoje Lukic's face at the time

Page 1664

1 he was in your bedroom?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Can you describe how it was they came to leave? Did anything

4 occur prior to them leaving?

5 A. Milan kept laughing and then they left. They walked out of the

6 house.

7 Q. And what did you do after they left?

8 A. We couldn't sleep any more. We were waiting to see what would

9 happen next.

10 Q. Did there come a time when anyone returned to the house that

11 morning?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Approximately what time did someone return to the house?

14 A. I think around 7.30, 8.00.

15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I apologise. I at this time formally

16 tender that photograph that the witness that marked.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll admit it.

18 THE REGISTRAR: The marked photograph becomes Exhibit P101, Your

19 Honours.

20 MR. GROOME:

21 Q. And who was it that returned to the house?

22 A. Milan Lukic came back.

23 Q. And can you please describe what happened when he returned to

24 your house.

25 A. He banged on the door. My mother-in-law opened the door. Milan

Page 1665

1 asked for me. My mother-in-law came to me, stood in the doorway, and

2 said, VG-35, Milan is asking for you. I came out. I stood on the

3 doorstep.

4 Q. And what happened then?

5 A. He said to me, "You have five minutes to get ready to come with

6 me."

7 Q. And what, if anything, did you say to him?

8 A. Right. I'm sorry. First of all, I was thinking. I was thinking

9 of running away from the doorstep so that he would kill me. Then I

10 thought of my children, what they would become.

11 Q. Did you run away?

12 A. No, I did not.

13 Q. At this point in time was he alone, or was he with other people?

14 A. He was alone.

15 Q. What happened next?

16 A. I told him, "I'm ready. I don't need to get any more ready."

17 Q. And what did he do when you told him that you were ready?

18 A. He said, "Come with me and get into the car."

19 Q. Was there a car in front of your house?

20 A. Yes, there was.

21 Q. Did you recognise this car?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Did you know the owner of this car?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who owned this car?

Page 1666

1 A. Ekrem Dzafic.

2 Q. Did you get into the car?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Where in the car did you sit?

5 A. In the back.

6 Q. Did Milan Lukic get into the car?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where did he sit?

9 A. Driver's seat.

10 Q. Do you recall anything about the backseat of that car?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Please tell us what you remember about the backseat of that car.

13 A. In the backseat of the car was a bottle of liquor. I glanced at

14 it, and in the rearview mirror, Milan caught me looking at it. He said,

15 "You mean to kill me?" I said, "I've never killed anyone in my life."

16 Then he grabbed the bottle and put it in the passenger seat next to him.

17 Q. Did the car leave from in front of your house?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did you do as the car pulled away from your house?

20 A. I just kept thinking of my children.

21 Q. Where did he drive the car?

22 A. He told me -- he told me he knew where my husband was. He told

23 me he knew I was waiting to be exchanged to see my husband.

24 Q. And do you remember where it was he drove the car?

25 A. He kept driving somewhere, stopping by the Megdan.

Page 1667

1 Q. Prior to arriving at Megdan, did he stop at any other place?

2 A. He drove somewhere. My mind was not working. All I could think

3 of were my children. He drove somewhere towards the SUP, the Secretariat

4 of Internal Affairs.

5 Q. Where is the area that you're referring to as Megdan? Where is

6 that in respect to Bikavac?

7 A. Just above the church.

8 Q. Did there come a time when you stopped at a house in Megdan?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you know the person who owned that house?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat? We did not

12 understand.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you please repeat that, Witness.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a house belonging to Forta.

15 Forta was the family name of that family, a Muslim house. A friend of

16 mine used to live there, and I had been to that house before the war.

17 MR. GROOME:

18 Q. What did Milan Lukic do when he arrived at the Forta house?

19 A. He told me to get out of the car.

20 Q. And where did you go when you got out of the car?

21 A. Into the house.

22 Q. Prior to going into the house, did you see anyone in the vicinity

23 of the house?

24 A. Yes, I did. I saw Lakic.

25 Q. And is that the name of a person who you knew?

Page 1674

1 Q. VG-35, on the trip back from the Forta house to your own home,

2 did Milan Lukic say anything to you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What did he say?

5 A. He said that I would have to tell my husband what he had done to

6 me.

7 Q. And what did you respond?

8 A. I said, "You didn't do anything at all. Just take me back to my

9 children."

10 Q. Did he say anything to you with respect to leaving Visegrad?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What did he say?

13 A. That I'd never get out of Visegrad alive.

14 Q. What happened when you returned home?

15 A. My mother-in-law saw me. Let me say this first. When Milan took

16 me back, when we were at the junction near my house, he told me to get

17 off. I got off, and I never turned back. I expected that he would

18 perhaps kill me.

19 As I was nearing the door, my mother-in-law fainted immediately.

20 I walked into the house. My children, my eldest son put his arms around

21 me and said, "Mum, you're back," and I said, yes. I held them as tightly

22 as I could. I kissed them, and I cried because I knew what this meant to

23 them.

24 Q. Can I now draw your attention to that afternoon of the 27th. Did

25 there come a time when Milan Lukic once again returned to your home?

Page 1675

1 A. Yes, he returned.

2 Q. And this time that he returned, was he alone or was he with other

3 people?

4 A. With a group of people.

5 Q. Did you recognise any of the people that were in the group with

6 him?

7 A. I recognised two of them.

8 Q. And can you tell us who -- the names of the people who you

9 recognised?

10 A. Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic.

11 Q. Now, around what time of the day was this when they returned this

12 time?

13 A. Between 4.00 and 5.00.

14 Q. When they returned this time, did Milan Lukic say anything to

15 you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did he say?

18 A. "What are you crying for?" He laughed in my face.

19 Q. What did these men do in your house?

20 A. They took all of my money and jewelry.

21 Q. How long were they at your house at this point in time?

22 A. Sredoje left, but Milan stayed, and there was this third person

23 whom I didn't know. They got all my jewelry and took it away. I gave

24 whatever jewelry I had, and I also had a ring that I gave to them. It

25 was a large ring. A necklace, a long one, with two heart-shaped lockets

Page 1676

1 that symbolised my two sons; one was smaller, and the other was bigger.

2 The bigger symbolised my older son, and the smaller heart-shaped locket

3 symbolised my youngest son, and they took that away from me as well.

4 Q. What was your physical condition during this period?

5 A. It was difficult. I was considering suicide that day, committing

6 suicide, but my mother-in-law saved me.

7 Q. Did there come a time when Milan Lukic left the house?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And how did he leave the house?

10 A. They walked out. We thought they all had left. All of a sudden

11 I started freezing, and I had a fever. It was the 27th of June. The

12 weather was nice and warm, but I was freezing with cold, probably on

13 account of my fear and everything I had gone through that day. I told my

14 mother-in-law, "Mother, go shut the door for us, please. I'm freezing."

15 My mother-in-law stood up, and there was a man sitting at the doorstep,

16 the man who was with Milan, the one I didn't recognise, the one who was

17 with Milan Lukic, the one I didn't know. He was sitting out on our

18 doorstep and --

19 Q. Did he say anything to you?

20 A. He told my mother-in-law, "Don't worry. I'm watching over you,

21 and I'll shut the door for you." And then my mother-in-law returned.

22 Fortunately, we weren't saying anything right then. After all, we were

23 too scared to talk. We were just worried whether we would survive. That

24 was our only concern.

25 Q. Did you see whether or not Milan Lukic and the other men had a

Page 1677

1 car?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you see that car?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you recognise that car?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Whose car did you recognise that to be?

8 A. Behija Zukic's car.

9 Q. Did you notice anything unusual about the car?

10 A. I'm not sure I know what you mean. I'm not sure I understand

11 your question.

12 Q. Was there any music coming from the car?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And can you characterise the volume at which the music was coming

15 from the car?

16 A. This was music, we used to refer it to as kalesija or burska

17 music, at least as far as I could tell.

18 Q. When the car left, were you able to tell the direction in which

19 the car went?

20 A. The car drove past my doorstep, and perhaps I should explain how

21 I saw the car. I was in my sitting room, and I could see the car drive

22 by the house from there. I could see where the car pulled over.

23 Q. And where the car pulled over, were you still able to hear the

24 music coming from the car?

25 A. Yes, because the door was open.

Page 1678

1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm about to move into a new area of

2 questioning in the evening. I'm not sure what time the Court intended to

3 take a break but ...

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take a break now.

5 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.

8 MR. GROOME:

9 Q. VG-35, we left -- we took the break at the point in time when you

10 were describing the Passat and hearing music from it. I now want to draw

11 your attention to, during this period of time, were you aware that there

12 were some refugees, Muslim refugees, also living in close proximity to

13 your house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did you come to learn where those refugees came from?

16 A. Those refugees came from Zupa.

17 Q. And this area of Zupa, is this an area north of Visegrad

18 encompassing several smaller villages?

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1679

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 MR. GROOME: Now, I'm going to ask that Prosecution Exhibit 101

23 be called up in e-court.

24 Q. And VG-35, this is a digital photograph of the photograph that

25 you marked with your own hand earlier today. Can you see this on the

Page 1680

1 screen in front of you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you see the house that the refugees were living in on this

4 photograph?

5 A. Yes, I can.

6 Q. Can I ask you to circle that house and write "Zupa" to indicate

7 the location of those refugees.

8 A. It's just below my house. You can't see it. It's Hasan Vilic's

9 house.

10 Q. Okay. So your testimony is that it's not depicted on this

11 photograph but it's just below the house that you've marked as your own?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. You've mentioned when Milan Lukic returned to your home that he

14 was in a Passat. Can I ask you to draw a circle --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

16 Yes, Mr. Cepic.

17 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, I checked the transcript. This witness

18 never said Passat.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is right. I can't remember the witness

20 saying "Passat."

21 MR. GROOME: I apologise, Your Honour.

22 Q. The car that you mentioned earlier in your testimony, what again

23 was the name of the owner of that car?

24 A. Hija Zukic.

25 Q. Could I ask you to draw a circle and put a "BZ" to indicate --

Page 1681

1 I'm sorry, "BZ1" to indicate where that car was the first time you saw it

2 on the afternoon of the 27th.

3 A. Just above my house here, in this area, on the road.

4 Q. And if you would put a "BZ1" to indicate that being the first --

5 the location of the car the first time you saw it.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Now, you said that the car drove some distance from the house.

8 Were you able to see where the car stopped?

9 A. The car remained where I drew the location.

10 Q. And while it remained there, were you able to hear the music from

11 the car?

12 A. Yes. The entrance door was open.

13 MR. GROOME: Okay. I'm finished with this photograph. I would

14 tender it, Your Honour, as a Prosecution exhibit.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll admit it.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P102, Your Honours.

17 MR. GROOME:

18 Q. VG-35, sometime after Milan Lukic and the others left your house,

19 did you hear anything?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did you hear?

22 A. Terribly loud shooting. I knew that there were a few of our men

23 in hiding, and I thought they were caught. There was a lot of shrieking

24 and screaming.

25 Q. May I now draw your attention to 9.00 that evening, or

Page 1682

1 approximately 9.00. Did there come a time when your mother-in-law asked

2 you to look at something?

3 MR. ALARID: Objection; leading.

4 MR. GROOME: I'll rephrase that.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yeah. "Did there come a time when your

6 mother-in-law asked you something," if you want to be very technical.

7 Witness, did your mother-in-law ask you anything?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: What did she ask you?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "See through the bathroom window.

11 There's a large fire."

12 MR. GROOME:

13 Q. Did you go and look through the bathroom window?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. Can you describe your observations to the Chamber?

16 A. It was a huge flame. I'd never seen a flame so high. I thought

17 a house must be burning.

18 Q. Were you able to tell from where you were whose house it was?

19 A. Not at that time. It was dark.

20 Q. Did you hear anything at the time you saw this house on fire?

21 A. There were no more cars. There was no more music.

22 Q. Did there come a time after you saw the fire that someone came to

23 your door?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Approximately what time was that?

Page 1683

1 A. After midnight, around 1.00 maybe.

2 Q. So this would be 1.00 a.m. on the 28th of June?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Who came to your door?

5 A. Zehra Turjacanin.

6 Q. Can you describe what happened when she came to your door?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic is on his feet.

8 Mr. Cepic.

9 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, could we have a redaction in the

10 transcript because this name is the name of Protected Witness 1.

11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, as I've informed the Court earlier,

12 this witness has now declined any protections from the Chamber.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

14 MR. GROOME:

15 Q. What happened when this person came to the door?

16 A. She banged on the door. My mother-in-law got up. We all jumped

17 to our feet. My mother-in-law opened the door. We didn't turn on the

18 light because we didn't dare to. Zehra told us that Milan Lukic had set

19 everything on fire, that she had tried to save her sister, but she did

20 not succeed, and her sister burned to death. I did not dare to look at

21 her.

22 Q. Why did you not dare to turn the light on?

23 A. Because if the Serbian troops saw the light, they would know I

24 was there. I just didn't dare to turn the light on for my own safety.

25 Q. How long did Zehra remain at your house?

Page 1684

1 A. She just told us, "Run away. They'll set you on fire, too."

2 That was all, and then she left our doorstep.

3 Q. Do you know where she went after she left your house?

4 A. She just told me, "I'm going around to see if there's anyone else

5 here, to tell them to run away to save their necks."

6 Q. The refugees that you've identified just a few minutes ago, did

7 you ever see them again after this night?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Is it your belief that they perished in the fire that you saw

10 that night?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did there come a time when you did see the location where the

13 fire occurred and were able to identify whose house it was?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When was that?

16 A. After Zehra told me that Milan had set the people in Meho Aljic's

17 house on fire, my children and my sister-in-law set out just to run away

18 somewhere. We passed by that house. It's difficult to describe the

19 smell of burnt bodies and burnt hair. We tried to leave Bikavac, but we

20 didn't manage. We went back home.

21 Q. I want to now ask you -- or change my line of questioning and ask

22 you: Did you know a woman by the name of Hajra Koric?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you present when she was killed?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1698

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

15 MR. ALARID:

16 Q. Did you find it unusual that he, in the context of a first

17 meeting, would give you the year of his birth?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Because most -- I think that it's strange that someone would have

20 to let you know what the year of their birth is when you first meet them.

21 What did you think?

22 A. I sure didn't ask him about his name, his last name, or his age.

23 Q. And so him saying "1967" was just out of the blue?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And this was part of the first time that you had ever met him?

Page 1699

1 A. Yes, the 26th.

2 Q. Now, if he was born in 1967, did he tell you anything about where

3 he came from, or did you know this from the community?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Well, if he's only four years younger than you and it's a small

6 community in Visegrad, had you ever heard of Milan Lukic in any way?

7 A. No.

8 Q. But you had heard before the 26th of June that Behija Zukic had

9 been killed by Milan Lukic, hadn't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And before the 26th of June, had you heard anything else about a

12 Milan Lukic from members of your Muslim community?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What kind of things did you hear?

15 A. That he was doing very bad things all over Visegrad and that he

16 had been killing people, taking people away, raping people.

17 Q. Now, as part of these rumours about Milan Lukic, had you heard a

18 description of him so you would know who to look out for?

19 A. No one described him to me. I just knew when he introduced

20 himself that he was the one.

21 Q. Have you ever heard of the village of Rujiste?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you ever come to know that Milan Lukic was from Rujiste, or

24 his parents were?

25 A. People were saying that, but I didn't know that myself.

Page 1700

1 Q. How far is Rujiste from your village?

2 A. I don't know. I've never been there.

3 Q. Now, you indicated that you knew who Sredoje Lukic was because he

4 was a police officer; isn't that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And maybe a police officer as a public person might be someone

7 you would have seen around the community for years before the war;

8 wouldn't that be true?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And so even here today, taking in account for age and changes,

11 you might -- if Sredoje Lukic were by himself, you might just be able to

12 know him as someone you knew before the war; wouldn't that be true?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And so here today, even by process of elimination, you know that

15 Milan Lukic is one of the persons charged in this room today, don't you?

16 A. I recognise him, too.

17 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you first about the Koric situation. You

18 indicated that there was 10 to 15 refugees and you were with those

19 refugees; isn't that true?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you indicated that the person -- that at first ten men, ten

22 soldiers, entered the house asking for Hajra; isn't that true?

23 A. That's what I heard from others. I didn't know myself. There

24 was the Savic group that came first. I didn't know any of those. They

25 said, "We could have killed all of you."

Page 1701

1 Q. And by "the Safic group," what does "Safic group" mean to you?

2 A. Savic. Savic.

3 Q. Savic. And tell me about the Savic group.

4 A. It was some sort of an army as well. Who were they after, what

5 were they after, I have no idea.

6 Q. Can you tell me if this Savic group was dressed in uniform?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what kind of uniforms, if you could describe them?

9 A. Camouflage. Camouflage uniform.

10 Q. And there were different colours of camouflage at the time. Do

11 you recall what kind?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Please describe them.

14 A. White and grey, as far as I remember.

15 Q. And -- now, you indicate that these ten men from the Savic group,

16 they left, and Milan Lukic group came later; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And this is sometime between the 5th of July and the 1st of July;

19 is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that's because you know the day you left Visegrad as being

22 July 9th; is that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And it -- it was within the next two or three days after you

25 escaped from Bikavac, correct?

Page 1702

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the only thing I'm asking you is, can you clarify, if you

3 can, whether it was at the beginning of the 1st through the 5th or

4 towards the end or in the middle, because -- in somehow relating it to

5 when you escaped from either Bikavac or from Visegrad together.

6 I'm sorry. I didn't hear your answer.

7 A. It was between the 1st and the 5th. Whether it was on the 3rd, I

8 can't say right now. I know it was at that time, and I am absolutely

9 certain about it.

10 Q. Now, when you say "Milan Lukic and his group," can you tell me

11 how many men were in this group?

12 A. I didn't count them. I was too scared.

13 Q. And when you were asked out of this house, you were exposed;

14 isn't that true?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you're saying that Hajra Koric was in line with you and she

17 was at the end of the line; isn't that true?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you say that Milan Lukic inspected this line, looking for

20 Hajra; isn't that true?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And in your testimony today or in your statements before --

23 A. My apologies. May I say something?

24 Q. Yes, ma'am.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

Page 1703

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say Milan Lukic was

2 looking. I said one of the men from his group was looking for Hajra. He

3 walked up to my sister-in-law, and Milan said, "This isn't Hajra. There

4 is Hajra." And then he took her aside.

5 MR. ALARID:

6 Q. And so the next thing I was going to say and ask of you is that I

7 do not see in your statements, nor did I hear from your -- from you today

8 that Milan Lukic recognised you in this line or acknowledged you in any

9 way.

10 A. No one asked. I would have said.

11 Q. It doesn't appear that he was distracted by you or that he knew

12 you from your statements or your testimony today.

13 A. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

14 Q. Well, simply that I would expect, given the other things that

15 you've testified about, that Milan Lukic might have made an issue about

16 you and knowing you.

17 A. I recognised him, all right. His face is etched in my memory,

18 and it will stay there forever.

19 Q. And I'm sorry, ma'am. You misunderstood me. I was more

20 expecting that he would have recognised you and called you out or

21 something to that effect at the time that Hajra Koric is being detained.

22 A. He was looking for Hajra. The only thing he told me was, "Don't

23 be afraid." When he finished with Hajra, I expected to meet the same

24 fate as she. It was then that Milan ordered us to all go back to the

25 house -- to our homes, rather, and that none of us were to leave our

Page 1704

1 homes. And then he said that about 11.00 that evening he would be back

2 to see us, and if anyone fled he would have everybody else killed. There

3 was me and there was another lady. I can't say her name because we're in

4 public session. We decided to leave the house, anyway, reckoning he

5 couldn't kill everybody. Someone would make it and would live to tell

6 the tale. We left the house -- we were in a house -- that evening, that

7 night, at about 11.00, as far as I remember, we heard a huge clamor, some

8 screaming and sounds of shooting. Was it Milan who was back to look for

9 us? I really can't say. Perhaps you should ask him.

10 Q. Now, even so, it appears that he did not act as if he recognised

11 you; isn't that true?

12 A. How do you mean that?

13 Q. Just on that day, you say he only said, "Don't be afraid," but it

14 doesn't appear that he singled you out in terms of recognising you.

15 A. He didn't single me out because I wasn't the one he was looking

16 for. He was looking for Hajra Koric because what he wanted to do was to

17 kill Hajra. Why? I really have no idea. Maybe you should ask him.

18 Q. Now, it's come to our attention you wouldn't -- and you would not

19 have any reason to know this, but I want to put it in context, is that we

20 have some information that someone else saw another person first shoot

21 Hajra Koric and then -- described that a Milan Lukic shot second after

22 she had already died. How -- can you explain that, or is there anyone

23 that could believe that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did someone shoot Hajra Koric first and not Milan Lukic?

Page 1705

1 A. Milan Lukic shot Hajra Koric. No one else.

2 Q. Did -- well, then that's, I guess, what I was going to ask you.

3 Did somebody else shoot the body, too, that you saw?

4 A. Do you understand what I'm telling you? I am telling you that

5 Milan Lukic shot Hajra, and he was the only one.

6 Q. And I understand that, ma'am, but I'm going through some other

7 statements that I've had to go through as part of this case, and you seem

8 to be someone that could help clarify this for me, and that's why I ask

9 you this question, not to offend you.

10 Now, let's -- we can move on to a different subject. You

11 indicate that VG-114 came to your doorway early in the morning of the

12 28th of June; is that true?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And when you heard this banging on the door, can you describe it

15 for the Court, please.

16 A. VG-114 was banging at our door in order to wake us. It wasn't

17 banging that was loud enough for the entire neighbourhood to be able to

18 hear. It wasn't like she was trying to raise an alarm or anything.

19 Q. And am I clear from your testimony that you did not look at her,

20 that you did not see her?

21 A. I didn't dare to turn on the light. That's what I said.

22 Q. And so as you -- but how would you know it was her? How did you

23 identify it as her?

24 A. I know VG-114. I know her well. I also knew her parents very

25 well, and nobody will tell me that it wasn't her. It was her voice.

Page 1706

1 Before the war we socialised a lot, had coffee together a lot.

2 Q. And what I did not see, though, in your testimony today nor your

3 statements is description of any difficulties that she might have been

4 having telling you this on that night.

5 A. She told us coherently that Milan Lukic had set her on fire,

6 together with his group, that she had tried to save her sister, who was

7 aged 9 or 10, and she wasn't in good health; she was a little

8 handicapped. She said, "My mother had burned to death, my two sisters,

9 and the two children of my sisters. Save yourselves. Run for your

10 lives." I understood very well what she told us that evening. She told

11 us that her hands and arms had burned, that her hair had burned. I

12 couldn't see her well because I didn't dare to turn on the light, as I

13 said before. And that's what she said before she went on.

14 Q. And I guess the reason I ask this of you is because it's my

15 understanding that her injuries were terrible, and it seems that she

16 would have had difficulty moving around in such an injured state, and

17 that's why I asked if you witnessed this.

18 A. Esteemed counsel, she had such presence of mind, it's a miracle.

19 That much I concede to you. In such panic, in such fear, she found the

20 strength to go out and warn other people to save themselves. And if she

21 had died of the injuries, somebody else would have lived to tell about

22 what had happened, as I have made it.

23 Q. And so you credit her with you leaving the village and making the

24 decision to get out that night.

25 A. Yes.

Page 1707

1 Q. But -- now, when you first indicated that you saw a house burning

2 outside the bathroom window, would it be fair to say that many Muslim

3 homes were burnt at that time since the Uzice Corps came all the way

4 through when you left?

5 A. I can't tell. That evening, that was the only house burning.

6 Before that incident, other houses had burnt, but that evening it was

7 Meho Aljic's house on fire. I know that.

8 Q. And -- but you only learned that later. You couldn't tell from

9 the bathroom window that it was that exact house.

10 A. Through my window, yes, I saw a house burning, and VG-114 told me

11 personally that everybody in the house of Meho Aljic had been burned to

12 death.

13 Q. Now, when you mentioned that this was a Passat that had been

14 there earlier, at least the Prosecutor mentioned that it was a Passat,

15 and you understood it to be Behija Zukic's car; is that true?

16 A. Yes. Behija Zukic.

17 Q. And the car that was -- earlier, that was Mr. Dzafic's, a

18 Peglica, what colour was that?

19 A. It was the colour of banana, if I remember well.

20 Q. Yellow?

21 A. Not quite -- typically yellow. It was not the standard yellow.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid?

23 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm going to take the break at the usual time.

25 It is now. There appears to be some uncertainty about the length of the

Page 1708

1 breaks. The length of the evening session breaks are exactly the same as

2 those for the morning: 20 minutes for the first break, and half an hour

3 for the second.

4 We should be concluding, though, in the evening at ten minutes

5 after 7.00 in order to achieve equivalence with the morning session. So

6 we will finish at ten minutes after 7.00 in the evenings when we do sit

7 in the evenings.

8 Let us adjourn.

9 --- Recess taken at 5.37 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.

12 MR. ALARID: Minor technical difficulty, Your Honour.

13 Q. Madam, when we took a break, we were talking about the car of

14 Ekrem Dzafic, and what was the colour of that car?

15 A. I said it was not the light yellow. Banana yellow, I would say.

16 Q. And is that more of a bright yellow, like a hilighter pen?

17 A. Well, are you going to look for shades?

18 Q. If you can't remember, no, of course not.

19 Now, let me ask you this question, ma'am. Is it true that many

20 Muslims had their cars seized at some point or another during this

21 aggression?

22 A. So I heard.

23 Q. And if you know, is it true that many of these cars were taken to

24 the police station for the use of these aggressors?

25 A. I can't answer that question.

Page 1709

1 Q. And is it true that you're saying that from the first time that

2 you saw this Milan Lukic to later, that he was in fact in two cars?

3 A. He drove me away in Ekrem's car.

4 Q. And that is where you discovered a bottle of liquor; is that

5 true?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And was this bottle of liquor, was it half-drank? Was it almost

8 empty? Was it almost full?

9 A. I can't tell you that.

10 Q. And I guess my next question would be, was the gentleman that you

11 knew as Milan Lukic who took you in that car, was he intoxicated, or

12 could you tell?

13 A. I couldn't tell. I was too afraid. I wasn't thinking of that.

14 Q. Well, I guess at another point in time - and I'm kind of dancing

15 around the subject - but you were with that person for two to three

16 hours --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not a good admission to make, Mr. Alarid.

18 MR. ALARID: Pardon me?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not a good admission to make, that you're

20 dancing around the subject.

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1716

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

10 MR. ALARID:

11 Q. And isn't it true, ma'am, that "Lukic" as a last name is a pretty

12 common last name in your part of the country?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And at a time with so many horrible things happening, there may

15 have been more than one Milan Lukic in the Serbian army or amongst the

16 Serbian aggressors; isn't that possible?

17 A. There was only one Milan Lukic in Visegrad.

18 Q. Isn't it true that there was another Milan Lukic, about 50 years

19 old, that was a little more powerful in the community?

20 A. Not that I know. I don't know that. I know only of this one

21 that I pointed out today, and I'm certain 100 percent that it's him.

22 Q. But, ma'am, according to your 1998 statement, it appears that you

23 were sure 100 percent that the person that you identified as Milan Lukic

24 had blue eyes.

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I think there's some misunderstanding

Page 1717

1 about the statement in 1998. There was no B/C/S statement that the

2 witness was able to read as was suggested a few questions ago. It's

3 always done in English, and there was a translator translating back and

4 forth between the witness and an investigator, who incidentally only

5 speaks English as her second language. So I believe the proper question

6 is what she remembers about his physical characteristics, not that she

7 read a B/C/S statement and signed something that she was able to fully

8 understand in her own language.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, didn't she give a statement?

10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, she gave it through an interpreter that

11 was recorded by a person who, again, did not speak English as their first

12 language. The question was put to her earlier on: Did she not have an

13 opportunity to read her statement in B/C/S and in English in 1998? There

14 was no B/C/S statement that she was able to read in 1998. She was

15 dependent upon the interpreter. And as we've heard that our own very

16 experienced interpreters here had great difficulty in one of the words

17 she used in her description of Milan Lukic, it's quite possible that

18 there was -- this is a translation problem and not a misdescription by

19 the witness.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So what use can be made of a statement? Are you

21 saying that not much use can be made of it in cross-examination?

22 MR. GROOME: Not that not much use can be made of it, Your

23 Honour, but the procedure that has been used certainly does have

24 limitations, and it's wrong to suggest to the witness that she had an

25 opportunity to read her statement in B/C/S and sign it. That never

Page 1718

1 factually happened. She did not have a B/C/S copy in 1998.

2 MR. ALARID: Well, and the problem, I guess --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: But she would have had an opportunity to hear it

4 being read to her.

5 MR. GROOME: Yes, through a translator.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Through a translator, yes.

7 Yes, Mr. Alarid. Perhaps you want to take that into account.

8 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, I would, but, one, with all due

9 respect to Mr. Groome, he's sort of making himself a witness in terms of

10 kind of, you know, giving us what was and what was the state of affairs

11 when this witness statement was taken. But other than that, Your Honour,

12 I think that maybe the point's been made, but I will ask the witness one

13 more time.

14 Q. Ma'am, isn't it true that you were read the statement in 1998 and

15 given an opportunity to hear that before you signed the English

16 statement?

17 A. I did not get it in my hands because when I was questioned there

18 was an interpreter who wrote it down, in 1998.

19 Q. And, ma'am, but isn't it true that you initialed each page after

20 it was read to you in succession?

21 A. Yes, I put my signature.

22 Q. And by putting your signature on each page, that was you

23 indicating that you understood what was being read to you and you agreed

24 with it; isn't that true?

25 A. The interpreter could have interpreted it, but I can't remember

Page 1719

1 saying anything about blue eyes at all. I really can't recall that.

2 Q. But isn't it true that the word for "blue" is very different than

3 the word for "brown"?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And we can see that because in the first paragraph of the Bosnian

6 translation, it's clearly stated "blue eyes and light brown hair."

7 A. "Dark brown hair," I said clearly, and I remember it.

8 Q. I'm sorry. I stand corrected. Dark brown hair. And do you

9 consider dark brown being closer to black than blonde?

10 A. It can't be close to blonde if it's dark brown.

11 Q. And that's what I mean, ma'am. I want to know what you believe.

12 If I were to tell you that someone had light brown hair, is that closer

13 to blonde than black?

14 A. Brown is brown. Dark brown. So it's closer to black than it is

15 to light brown or to fair.

16 Q. Could the court assistant please put on the screen --

17 MR. ALARID: And at this time, Your Honour, I would tender

18 1D10-1633 into evidence, the statement, 1998.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll admit it.

20 MR. ALARID: And under seal, please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: It's 1D44, Your Honours, under seal. It's 1D44,

22 Your Honours, under seal.

23 MR. ALARID: And could the court usher please bring onto the

24 e-court screen 1D00-3119.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

Page 1720

1 MR. CEPIC: I apologise. If we have exhibit number, it is not in

2 the transcript, please. Thank you.

3 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as Exhibit 1D44 under seal, Your

4 Honours.

5 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.

6 MR. ALARID: Could the assistant even come a little closer into

7 the face. Little closer, please.

8 Q. And, ma'am, would it be fair to say that this picture is of the

9 same gentleman that's in the courtroom today seated in the back room whom

10 you identified earlier as the Milan Lukic?

11 A. That's him.

12 Q. And would you agree that the person's eyes in this photograph are

13 brown, not blue?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And not wanting to quibble over light and dark brown, but I would

16 argue that this is light brown hair. Would it be true that this is light

17 brown hair?

18 A. I wouldn't agree. It's dark brown. Plus, he may have dyed it.

19 MR. ALARID: At this time, Your Honour, I would tender 1D00-3120

20 in evidence.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: It will be admitted.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As 1D45, Your Honours.

23 MR. ALARID:

24 Q. And ma'am, I'm going to put another picture on the screen for

25 you, and I trust me, I do not in any way mean to offend you, but it is

Page 1721

1 this gentleman without a shirt on, and I'm going to put that on.

2 MR. ALARID: Could we put 1D00-3111, please.

3 Q. Now, ma'am, this may not be the best of pictures, and maybe the

4 court usher could focus on the upper body, please.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: When was this taken?

6 MR. ALARID: It was taken after the war, Your Honour.

7 Q. Now, ma'am, just looking at the picture, I don't necessarily see

8 - and again, this could be my interpretation of things - but what would

9 be characterised as birthmarks all over his body. I see some freckles,

10 maybe, but I don't see birthmarks. Is that true?

11 A. Whatever you call them, freckles, birthmarks. He had spots on

12 his body.

13 Q. And would you characterise his hair in this photograph as light

14 brown or dark brown?

15 A. This picture, the hair is dark brown.

16 MR. ALARID: I would tender this into evidence, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll admit it.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As 1D46, Your Honour.

19 MR. ALARID: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

21 Mr. Cepic.

22 MR. DIECKMANN: Your Honours, I will continue for the -- I will

23 continue for the Defence.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Dieckmann.

25 MR. DIECKMANN: Yes, thank you.