081009ED

Page 2710

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

4 MR. COLE:

5 Q. Now, VG-017, you told the Court a short time ago that you helped

6 to bury the body of one of the victims from the Varda factory.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And this man, the man whose body you helped to bury, was Ibrisim

9 Memisevic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And shortly after the men were killed, it was the mother of this

12 man who passed by your address?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you help bury this man in the Dusce area?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And at whose request did you bury his body there?

17 A. They were watching all of this from further up, and then his

18 mother walked down crying. She went down as far as the Drina River bank

19 and found her son's body, the body of Ibrisim.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll have to take the break now, Mr. Cole.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.43 a.m.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cole, to conclude.

24 MR. COLE: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. VG-017, you told the Court earlier that when you located or when

Page 2711

1 you saw Ibrisim Memisevic's body, it was riddled with bullets. Do you

2 recall that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall how many bullet holes or bullet wounds you saw?

5 A. I can't remember exactly, but there were more than ten.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: When was that, Mr. Cole?

7 MR. COLE: That was --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: When did he see the body in relation to the

9 event?

10 MR. COLE: Yes.

11 Q. VG-017, when was it and how was it that you were able to see the

12 body of Ibrisim?

13 A. When we buried body.

14 Q. Where was the body when you first saw it before you took it to

15 bury the body?

16 A. His mother brought his body from the riverbank and from his home

17 on a cart to this location of his grave.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: When was that burial? Was that the same day as

19 the shooting or a day after, or just when was it?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next day.

21 MR. COLE:

22 Q. And did anyone assist you with the burial?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. Who was that?

25 A. I was there; and Ismaela Jeta [phoen]; her son, Mustafa

Page 2712

1 Memisevic.

2 Q. And you said earlier that while you were conducting the burial,

3 there was some shooting at you. Do you know who it was that was shooting

4 at you?

5 A. Well, we knew who. The Chetniks, all of them.

6 Q. Now, I'm going to ask that the -- that you be shown another

7 photograph, ERN 0545-0161.

8 MR. COLE: This is a still from P54 as the previous exhibit was.

9 Q. I ask that that be shown to you now. Right.

10 Can you see the photograph in front of you, VG-017?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you see the guardhouse that you have earlier described?

13 A. Yes. This is the small guardhouse, but the photo was taken from

14 a different angle.

15 Q. Yes. Using the pen, can you -- and with the assistance of the

16 court usher, could you please write the English letter G on the

17 guardhouse on that photo.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Now, can you please, with an X, mark the location that you were

20 hiding behind the barrels, when you viewed the scene at Varda that day.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. And can you put the English letter B above that cross.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Can you now put a cross where you viewed the scene from the

25 henhouse that day.

Page 2713

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. And above that cross, could you put a double H, double English

3 letters H for "henhouse."

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Yes. Thank you.

6 MR. COLE: Your Honours, I would now ask that that exhibit be

7 tendered into evidence.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

9 THE REGISTRAR: The Exhibit will become P156, Your Honours.

10 MR. COLE: Yes. Thank you. I have a last topic to ask the

11 witness about, Your Honours.

12 Q. VG-50 -- VG-017, I asked you earlier and you gave some testimony

13 about the car that Milan Lukic was driving; and on that occasion, you

14 said that the owner of the car was a lady by the name of Zukic. Do you

15 recall that?

16 A. Yes, Behka Zukic.

17 Q. What occupation or business did she have at the time in 1992?

18 A. She owned a store.

19 Q. Are you aware now that she was killed in 1992?

20 A. Yes. She was the first victim to be killed in Visegrad when the

21 war broke out.

22 Q. Whereabouts was it that she was killed?

23 A. In her own home.

24 Q. Where did she live? Where was her home?

25 A. In Dusce.

Page 2714

1 Q. Do you know what happened to her husband and son?

2 A. Yes. They were killed as well some days before, her husband and

3 her son.

4 Q. Did you yourself see the body of Behija Zukic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you summons to go to her address that day?

7 MR. ALARID: Objection, leading.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the circumstances, I'll allow it.

10 MR. COLE:

11 Q. What happened when you arrived at her address that day?

12 A. I was near the house and there was a phone that I was using at

13 the time. I got a call saying that an ambulance would be on its way to

14 take her to hospital.

15 Q. So what did you do?

16 A. I was on my way past some other houses. I took a different path,

17 it was a village path, and then eventually I reached her house.

18 Q. Can you describe the condition of her body when you saw it?

19 A. An ambulance arrived, a doctor and a driver. They pulled up

20 outside the house.

21 Q. And did you assist with removing her body to the ambulance?

22 A. Yes. We took the stairs up to the first floor, and when we

23 reached the hallway on the first floor, this lady was lying in the

24 following position: Half her body was in one of the rooms, and half her

25 body was out in the hall, face down.

Page 2715

1 Q. Did you notice any particular wound?

2 A. Yes. When we placed her body on a blanket, we turned her over so

3 she was now face up. She had a braid that was as thick as a hand. The

4 braid had fallen across her face. We placed her dead body on this

5 blanket, but the brain came out of the skull. I picked up her brain, but

6 the doctor swore at me and ordered me to leave it where it was, so the

7 brain remained on the floor just lying there.

8 Q. Whereabouts was the wound --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Cole, please.

10 MR. COLE: Thank you.

11 Q. Whereabouts was the wound on her head?

12 A. She was shot from the back in the neck, the back of her head, and

13 her whole head was blown to pieces.

14 Q. Do you know what month in 1992 that was?

15 A. I don't know, but it was early on in 1992 [as interpreted]. She

16 was the first victim to be killed in Visegrad.

17 Q. Now, just finally in relation to the --

18 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, a note for the transcript. Mr. Ivetic

19 heard "1991" as opposed to "1992," if we could check on the tape.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you let us know what was said, interpreter?

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter believes that he heard "1992,"

22 but, of course, the tape can be checked.

23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Why don't you clarify it with the

24 witness?

25 MR. COLE: Yes. I'll ask the question again.

Page 2716

1 Q. VG-017, I'm going to ask the question again.

2 Can you tell us, are you able to assist us with which month it

3 was in 1992 that you saw the body of Mrs. Zukic?

4 A. At the very beginning. I can't remember the --

5 MR. ALARID: [Previous translation continues] ... objection.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry, Mr. Alarid, I didn't hear your

7 objection.

8 MR. ALARID: The restatement of the question was leading.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that was the question that he had put.

10 MR. ALARID: No. Specifically, he says "assist us with which

11 month it was in 1992 that you saw Ms. Zukic."

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: But he earlier had asked: "Do you know what

13 month in 1992 that was."

14 MR. ALARID: That's still leading, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, there was no objection at that time. That

16 was the question which he had put.

17 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Isn't the point moot, because the

18 interpreter has clarified that it was 1992, so I don't think we need to

19 waste more time on this. Thank you.

20 MR. COLE: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Final subject, VG-017, about the car owned by Mrs. Zukic that

22 you've told us about here in court earlier, and you did say that you

23 didn't know what type of car it was that you saw on that occasion at the

24 Varda factory. Were you, however, told by other persons the type of car

25 that Mrs. Zukic owned?

Page 2717

1 A. Yes. I heard at a later stage that this was a new Passat.

2 Q. Yes. Thank you.

3 MR. COLE: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Cole.

5 Mr. Alarid.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

7 Q. Sir, my name is Jason Alarid and I represent Milan Lukic. I'd

8 like to ask you a few questions. I'd also like to remind you that you're

9 under oath.

10 Now, sir, I'd like to go with the last statement you made. You

11 indicated that you heard that it was a new Passat; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who did you hear this from?

14 A. The neighbours were talking about it, mostly women. Who else?

15 Because men did not dare go out much. As soon as they got out of the

16 house, they would be killed.

17 Q. You said you saw this car on several occasions. What colour was

18 it?

19 A. I don't know the colour. I don't remember.

20 Q. This is a brand new Passat in Visegrad. Would it be fair to say

21 that there weren't many Passats in Visegrad?

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2718

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

8 MR. COLE: Thank you, sir.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Please proceed --

10 Mr. Cepic.

11 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry for interrupting. We have in the

12 transcript, but we didn't have translation in B/C/S, who Mr. Alarid

13 represents, which client he represents. Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is that?

15 MR. CEPIC: This is on -- I'm sorry. We didn't have translation

16 in B/C/S. This is on page 39, line 17, just the name of client.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: You wish Mr. Alarid to state the client that he

18 represents.

19 MR. CEPIC: Yeah. Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, with that very profound point, Mr. Alarid,

21 please state the client that you represent.

22 MR. ALARID:

23 Q. Mr. Witness, did you hear me earlier that I indicated that I

24 represent Milan Lukic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2719

1 Q. Now, isn't it true that you didn't mention anything about Behija

2 Zukic or the Passat before your proofing note session of October 8,

3 2007 -- I mean, excuse me, 2008?

4 A. Right. I didn't talk about that.

5 Q. Isn't it true that someone's memory usually gets worse over time

6 as opposed to better over time?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. And it's an important fact, about the car that the person drove

9 to a murder, isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And isn't it true, in the 1998 statement, you gave no description

12 of the vehicle, make, model or colour?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now, you first met with the Office of the Prosecutor on the

15 7th of October. Isn't that true?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you met with the -- Mr. Cole, who is in the courtroom now;

18 and a translator; and also an intern; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How long did this meeting on October 7th, the first meeting, how

21 long did it take?

22 A. About an hour.

23 Q. Were you given your statements of 1998 and 2008 to review in

24 anticipation of your testimony at that first meeting?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2720

1 Q. And during that first meeting, isn't it true that you were shown

2 several photographs, including the ones you looked at in court today?

3 Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in that statement, you also -- in that proofing session, you

6 also reiterated that you lost your mother and two sons as well as your

7 son-in-law in the conflict of 1992; correct?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. And in that October 7th meeting, you also clarified that

10 Mr. Lukic, or the person you identified as Mr. Lukic, hugged one of the

11 men, Nedzad Bektas; correct?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. And then you went to your hotel room, I take it; correct?

14 A. I don't understand.

15 Q. Well, after your proofing session on October 7th, what did you

16 do?

17 A. Went home.

18 Q. Did you have an appointment to meet with the Prosecutor the next

19 day on the 8th?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you -- can you tell the Court what happened during that -- or

22 who told you about the red Passat, who reminded you?

23 A. I didn't say it was a red Passat. Who said that?

24 Q. Who reminded you that it was a Passat?

25 A. It was a Passat. I heard it later from the womenfolk. No men

Page 2721

1 dared leave their homes, but all the women were talking about it.

2 Q. Who brought up Behka Zukic?

3 A. I brought her up.

4 Q. So what, during the night between October 7th and October 8th,

5 was the epiphany of which you would now bring up the Zukic situation in

6 relation to the Varda?

7 A. Because it was her car.

8 Q. What, during the night, was the epiphany in which you recalled

9 all of this association with Behka Zukic?

10 A. Because I heard it from the women.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Mr. Alarid.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, I don't like interrupting your

14 cross-examination, I see you're building up to something, but you had

15 earlier asked the witness whether it wasn't true that, in his 1998

16 statement, he made no mention of the vehicle, make, model or colour; and

17 the witness said no, meaning that he didn't accept your proposition.

18 That's what I understood.

19 So I would have expected that you would then have put the

20 statement to the witness to show that the statement, indeed, contained no

21 mention of the car, the make, model or colour.

22 MR. ALARID: In a weird way, Your Honour, I actually understood

23 that he was agreeing with me that he didn't mention it, but I can see how

24 the confusion happened, and I was going to go through his statement. So

25 we'll get there either way. But in the way I absorbed it, I absorbed it

Page 2722

1 that he was agreeing that he didn't mention it.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. You interpret it as agreeing with you.

3 I guess that's possible.

4 MR. ALARID: Let me just ask the witness again.

5 Q. Sir, Mr. VG-017, isn't it true that in your 1998 statement, nor

6 in your 2008 clarification of that statement, did you mention anywhere

7 the make, model, or colour of the car that was at the Varda factory the

8 day you say Milan Lukic was there?

9 A. Yes. I did not mention it anywhere.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Then that clarifies that.

11 Yes, Mr. Cole.

12 MR. COLE: Well, if I could just point out, sir, Your Honour,

13 there is a limited description of the car; and I think, in all fairness,

14 if this type of question is going to be put, he should be referred to his

15 statement at this stage. It does give us some description of a car here,

16 although limited, Your Honour.

17 MR. ALARID: I was going to get to that, Your Honour. I was

18 going to put the statement to the witness to get exactly the limited

19 nature of IDing that a car was there.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, it's important to have everything in

21 its entire context, Mr. Alarid.

22 MR. ALARID: Yes, absolutely, sir. Absolutely.

23 Q. Now, in your proofing statement of October 8, 2008, it's also the

24 first time that you mention that: "The witness saw Milan Lukic driving

25 on the road past his house in," your village, "on a number of occasions

Page 2723

1 prior to the witness leaving Visegrad on the 8th of June, 1992. "Isn't

2 that true?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Cole is on his feet.

4 MR. COLE: Your Honour, we're going to have to have a redaction

5 again because we're mentioning his house again. I wonder if that passage

6 could be noted for redaction.

7 MR. ALARID: I did not mention the name of the village to not

8 have that objection.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I think it's sufficiently general not to

10 be indicative of anything.

11 MR. ALARID:

12 Q. Isn't that true, sir?

13 A. Again, I don't understand what you're talking about.

14 Q. Isn't it true that October 8th, 2008, in the proofing session

15 with the Prosecutor, is the first time you mentioned that Milan Lukic

16 drove on the road past your house "on a number of occasions prior to the

17 witness leaving Visegrad"? The witness is you, sir.

18 A. That's true.

19 Q. And isn't it true that in your 2008 October 8th proofing session

20 is the first time that you claim Milan Lukic was in the same car each

21 time, and that it was a new car? Correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. But you can't tell us the colour, but you can tell us it was new?

24 A. I don't know the colour, but I know it was new because my

25 neighbour used to drive it.

Page 2724

1 Q. But isn't it true, in your 1998 statement, you indicated that you

2 did not know Milan Lukic before the Varda incident and, in fact, learned

3 his identity only by hearsay of other people?

4 A. It's true.

5 Q. And the first time that you were able to supposedly identify

6 Mr. Lukic, you were at a considerable distance from the Varda factory,

7 isn't that true, a hundred and fifty metres or more?

8 A. It's true that he passed by my house all the time. There was no

9 other way for him to go.

10 Q. But if you couldn't recognise the driver of the car passing by

11 your house, how could you associate it with the person in the Varda

12 factory?

13 A. How wouldn't I? I know him. I know the man.

14 Q. Well, let's talk about how you know him. You know he's from

15 Rujiste; right?

16 A. I know the family well, but I don't know him because he was in

17 Serbia.

18 Q. Isn't it true that you said, in your first statement, that the

19 Milan Lukic you knew of was from Rujiste? Correct?

20 A. Yes, right. He is from Rujiste.

21 Q. You heard this from the women as well, or did you know this on

22 your own?

23 A. I knew that from the time I worked as a driver in the forestry

24 department.

25 Q. When was that? You retired in 1983.

Page 2725

1 A. Yes. I knew him by his family members who were employed with me

2 in the forestry department, and his name was mentioned.

3 Q. Please give the full names of all the family members that you

4 know.

5 A. What are you talking about? I can barely remember my own name

6 let alone the names of people from 17 years ago.

7 Q. Well, you were in -- you were in Visegrad area for how long?

8 A. Around 40 years. I arrived in 1963.

9 Q. Well, you say that you worked with members of the Lukic family in

10 the forestry department. What are their names?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, he has already answered that, you know.

12 He said he can barely remember his own name let alone the names of people

13 from 17 years ago.

14 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, with all due respect, he mentioned

15 Behka Zukic after 18 years of not mentioning her. I'm questioning the

16 limit of this witness's memory, and I think that's appropriate to

17 establish credibility, bias, and ability to remember.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Witness, are you able to help us with the

19 names of the members of the Lukic family with whom you worked in the

20 forestry department? Yes or no?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I know is one person, Djordje

22 Lukic. He worked in the warehouse.

23 MR. ALARID:

24 Q. And what relation was Djordje Lukic to Milan Lukic?

25 A. That I don't know.

Page 2726

1 Q. How old was Djordje Lukic?

2 A. He was not a young man, but I don't know how old he was. How

3 would I know?

4 Q. Well, in your statement of 1998, you indicated that Mr. Lukic,

5 Mr. Milan Lukic, was short, on the chubby side; correct?

6 A. Yes. Right.

7 Q. With black hair with oil in it, greased back?

8 A. Maybe.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.

10 MR. COLE: Yes, Your Honour. I'm looking at the statement. The

11 description of Mr. Lukic, it doesn't say "short" as I read it, so I

12 wonder --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, why don't you put the statement?

14 MR. ALARID: Certainly. I think we're there.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness should have the statement in front

16 of him.

17 MR. ALARID: Absolutely, Your Honour.

18 Could the court assistant bring up 1D10-2765; B/C/S version is

19 1D10-2770.

20 Q. Sir, do you recognise these first pages as the statement you gave

21 in 1998, 14th of February?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I note a signature at the bottom of the page.

24 MR. ALARID: Can the court assistant go down to that and verify

25 signatures.

Page 2727

1 Q. Is that your signature, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. ALARID: And can the court assistant go to page 1 of the text

4 of the statement, which is page 2 on the English version, and I believe

5 page 2 on the B/C/S version. Can we go to the bottom paragraph, please.

6 Q. Now, do you see that there you're indicating that the person you

7 believe to be Milan Lukic came to the Varda factory around 11.30 in the

8 morning? Correct?

9 A. I think it was from 9.30 to 11.30. I was there around 9.00.

10 Q. And in that paragraph. You indicate that Lukic is from the

11 village of Rujiste, "and I knew the Lukics well because they worked in

12 the forestry department..." Correct?

13 A. [No interpretation]

14 Q. Now, you indicate --

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the witness.

16 He's speaking past the microphone.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, could you give that answer again? The

18 interpreter did not hear.

19 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

20 MR. ALARID:

21 Q. And could the witness repeat himself, please?

22 A. I didn't hear well what you meant.

23 Q. In your statement of 1998, you indicate: "I knew the Lukics well

24 because they worked in the forestry department ..."

25 Is that true?

Page 2728

1 A. Yes. It's the older members of his family who worked there.

2 Q. Well, when you say "they," how many members of his family worked

3 there, even if you cannot remember their names?

4 A. I know about one of them who worked in the warehouse, the stock

5 manager, Djordje Lukic.

6 Q. How many other members of his family worked there?

7 A. I don't know exactly. I didn't keep records. How would I know?

8 I was a driver.

9 Q. Well, the reason I'm asking you, sir, is you used the word

10 "they," meaning plural, more than one. So other than Djordje, how many

11 people of the Lukic family worked at the forestry department of your

12 company?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Now, still, on the -- on the first page of your statement, you

15 indicate that: "During the Uzice Corps' time in Visegrad, there were

16 still murders and burnings." Correct -- or excuse me, "murders"?

17 A. Yes, in all of the suburbs of Visegrad.

18 Q. And isn't it true that once the Uzice Corps left, only the

19 reserve troops withdrew, but the rest of the army stayed? Correct?

20 A. The Uzice Corps, when they arrived in Visegrad, numbered around

21 3.000 soldiers.

22 Q. And when they left, how many stayed?

23 A. Well, that I don't know.

24 Q. Just from you being a 40-year resident, did you recognise many

25 faces that you'd never seen before that were Serb soldiers?

Page 2729

1 A. How would I be able to see them at all when I was living in a

2 mouse hole?

3 Q. So when did you actually go into hiding and not come far away

4 from your home?

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 Q. And can you recall when that was in at least the month and year?

8 A. It was in 1992, but I can't tell you the month because we were

9 seized by great fear.

10 Q. And at what point in time did you unfortunately lose track of

11 your sons? Was that before or after you went in riding?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cole.

13 MR. COLE: Yes. I wonder if we could have a redaction, Your

14 Honour, page 51, line 9.

15 MR. ALARID: I believe the witness mentioned his own village.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that should be redacted.

17 Mr. Alarid, there are two matters I am waiting for you to mention

18 in relation to the statement: One, that it has no mention of the car;

19 and the second point --

20 MR. ALARID: I believe it's the description of the witness, Your

21 Honour, and that's on the next page.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're coming to that.

23 MR. ALARID: Yes, it's the next page. I just didn't want to go

24 off the page and have to come back.

25 Q. The question I asked you, sir, before we turn the page is at what

Page 2730

1 time did you lose track of your sons? Was it before or after you went

2 into hiding?

3 A. That was after I went into hiding.

4 Q. And did you ever receive any justice for their disappearance?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you ever receive any justice for the disappearance of your

7 mother or son-in-law?

8 A. No. My son-in-law was found in Zepa. The river carried him to

9 Zepa. He was found there, and so there was an autopsy and he was --

10 sorry.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Identification was

12 performed.

13 A. And he was buried in Visegrad.

14 Q. At this time, there were many disappearances of Muslims; correct?

15 A. Not many of us, around 2.500.

16 Q. Who's the chief of police at this time in Visegrad?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Do you recognise the name of Risto Perisic?

19 A. No.

20 Q. How about Dragan Tomic?

21 A. The name rings a bell.

22 Q. Isn't it true that the police were undertaking the arrest and

23 detention of persons of Muslim ethnicity at that time in Visegrad?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Isn't it true that Muslims were beaten at the police station in

Page 2731

1 Visegrad?

2 A. Yes, it's true.

3 Q. Isn't it true that the police confiscated many vehicles and

4 trucks from Muslim persons?

5 A. Well, what they took from me alone was two cars and a motorbike.

6 Q. And many other Muslims were looted as well, sir. Isn't that

7 true?

8 A. All of them.

9 MR. ALARID: Now we're going to switch to the next page, please.

10 Q. And isn't it true that the first time you saw the person you

11 believed to be Milan Lukic was on the day of the Varda incident?

12 Correct?

13 A. That day that I mentioned in 1992; so, yes, that's correct.

14 Q. And at the time you first saw this person, you did not know his

15 name, you did not know that he was going to be identified as Milan Lukic.

16 Isn't that true?

17 A. True.

18 Q. And even on the day that you say he had come by your home, you

19 didn't see that person, did you, nor did you see the vehicle that this

20 person came in; correct?

21 A. I saw everything.

22 Q. From where you were hiding in your home?

23 A. I was on the first floor.

24 Q. And where would you be able to see, especially since you do not

25 describe it in your statement of 1998?

Page 2732

1 A. How on earth could I have not seen it? I was sitting on a chair

2 in the room on the first floor, and the window was wide open. You need

3 to climb about five or six stairs to reach my house in the first place,

4 but I noticed the car down there and saw Milan Lukic walk up the steps.

5 I --

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the last

7 part of the witness's answer.

8 MR. ALARID:

9 Q. Could you please repeat the last part of your answer, sir. The

10 interpreter did not hear it.

11 A. When I heard the car pull up outside the house, I saw Milan Lukic

12 get out of the car. I was sitting on a chair, and the window was open.

13 I went out the window since the window was open, and the window was on

14 the side of the house, and then I hid.

15 Q. Well, the reason I -- I believe that you did not see it is

16 because if you read the paragraph describing this incident, you state,

17 "Apparently, he was asking for me by name." And "apparently" indicates

18 that you didn't hear it, but you were told that by someone else.

19 A. Who else could have said that? He was the only person in the

20 house. Everyone else had fled. I was hiding by night-time.

21 Q. Well, then, if no one's there, how is he going to ask for you by

22 name? There's no one to talk to.

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Now, in your statement, you indicate that this Lukic is about 30

25 to 35 years old. Isn't that true?

Page 2733

1 A. I did say that, but I didn't know for sure.

2 Q. And then you go on to say: "He is of medium height and on the

3 chubby side." Isn't that true?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. And you go on to say that he had darkish hair with oil on his

6 hair. Isn't that true?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you go on down to say that: "I saw that Lukic was wearing

9 civilian clothes when he came on that day." Are you indicating the day

10 at the Varda factory or the day at your home?

11 A. At my home.

12 Q. So, on the day of the Varda factory incident, what were the

13 people wearing that came to the Varda factory?

14 A. Some JNA uniforms, olive drab, and some -- the other kind of

15 uniform.

16 Q. The reason I'm confused, sir, is if you go down to the second

17 paragraph, it indicates that basically one person and three other men

18 call, and then you said that, "I don't know the three soldiers that he

19 was with. These three wore the camouflage uniform and some had the SMB

20 uniform." "Some" indicates more than one person to me, so it appears

21 that there were more than four by that paragraph.

22 A. I only saw three.

23 Q. And the person that you believe to be Milan Lukic at the time,

24 what was he wearing?

25 A. Civilian uniform, as far as I remember.

Page 2734

1 Q. Please describe the civilian uniform.

2 A. I can't remember.

3 Q. Can you remember colour of pants or colour of shirt?

4 A. No. How on earth could I possibly remember that sort of thing?

5 I was doing my best to get out of the way.

6 Q. Was he wearing a jacket or a hat?

7 A. Perhaps. Perhaps he was wearing a jacket, but I think his head

8 was bare.

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear Mr. Cole.

18 MR. COLE: Yes, Your Honour. We're getting details now that

19 shouldn't be part of a public session. If could I ask, on this page,

20 there be some redactions, I think from the question on page 56, line 12.

21 We start talking about working and socialising at that point, and if

22 counsel could be careful, please.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid. You do have to be more

24 careful. So we have to redact those sections. The court deputy will

25 note that.

Page 2735

1 MR. ALARID: Can I proceed, Your Honour?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

3 MR. ALARID:

4 Q. Do we have to go into private session to mention any of the

5 deceased or persons that this witness believes were taken out, because we

6 are in open session?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole, I'll be advised by you.

8 MR. COLE: Yes. You Honour, the names of the victims, I don't

9 believe there's any need for those to be in private session, if that's

10 what counsel's asking.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

12 MR. ALARID:

13 Q. And what about Cancar Musan?

14 A. I knew him by sight, he was or familiar face, but not his name.

15 Q. Could you, from your vantage point at that house or the henhouse,

16 could you tell Cancar? Could you identify him?

17 A. No.

18 Q. But you're positive that you saw Nedzad Bektas; correct?

19 A. Of course. He was the first to be taken there.

20 Q. And you also mentioned Ibrisim. Could you tell him from a

21 distance, or did you learn that later from his mother?

22 A. I'm not sure I understand.

23 Q. Well, you indicated that you helped bury Ibrisim; correct?

24 A. Right. The moment they brought him there.

25 Q. The moment the women brought him to the burial sight, is what

Page 2736

1 you're saying?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So you couldn't tell Ibrisim at a distance from where you were in

4 the henhouse or your house; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. COLE: Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cole.

8 MR. COLE: Your Honour, the question and the answer are a little

9 ambiguous, in my submission, similar to a question and answer before. I

10 wonder if any event if the counsel could be a little bit clearer in his

11 question as to the occasion to which he refers.

12 MR. ALARID:

13 Q. Well, how about, could you read the last paragraph of page 3 of

14 the B/C/S statement, please -- or actually second to the last, sir, which

15 begins with "Lukic." In middle of the paragraph, it appears to me that

16 you only learned of the identity of Ibrisim later from his mother, not

17 that you identified him directly at a distance.

18 A. I see you're asking me about plenty of detail here. When they

19 took him as far as the guardhouse, he knelt down, and his family over

20 there, the wife and the children, were across the fence. He was looking

21 at his children, and they called him and then he walked over.

22 Q. Isn't this true that this is the first time you mentioned that

23 about Ibrisim in any statements, including in the proofing sessions, and

24 earlier in testimony today?

25 A. No. But you're making me say it, aren't you?

Page 2737

1 Q. No, sir. I don't believe I'm putting those words in your mouth.

2 You just indicated that that's what you believe.

3 Isn't it true that you did not witness the incident at the Varda

4 factory but heard the entire thing from other people and want simply to

5 help those people find justice?

6 A. I was positive, and my evidence is 100 per cent certain.

7 MR. ALARID: Could we please put on witness statement of 15 April

8 2008, uploaded as 1D10-2775.

9 But before we do that, I would like to tender the 1998 statement

10 into evidence.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's the statement you've just gone through?

12 MR. ALARID: Yes, sir.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, then, you should put it to him that

14 nowhere in the statement is there any mention of the car.

15 MR. ALARID: I can do that, Your Honour.

16 We'd need to back up. Are we already on the next?

17 Q. Well, just, sir, isn't it true that nowhere in your 1998

18 statement do you mention a make, model, or type of car, correct, the

19 statement we've just gone through, 1998?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Now, what we're --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, you should further question him now

23 as to how he came for the first time to mention the car.

24 MR. ALARID: Well, I thought I'd asked him that in terms of

25 that --

Page 2738

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: It follows more logically now.

2 MR. ALARID: I will do that, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.

4 MR. COLE: Yes. In fact, in the written statement, he does refer

5 to some details about a car. Now, counsel is asking him questions about

6 the car without the witness being able to look at the detail that he has

7 included in his statement. Now, in fairness, and the statement is now

8 going to be admitted, certainly the English translation gives these

9 details: "It was a ..." --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is that?

11 MR. COLE: It's on page 3 of the English version, sir, the second

12 paragraph.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could that be shown -- shown for us to see?

14 MR. ALARID: It's page 3, directly under the paragraph describing

15 Lukic as 30 to 35 and chubby side. So we have to go back to the earlier

16 exhibit. That would be 1D10-2765.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole, is this at paragraph 12?

18 MR. COLE: Sir, in fact, we're talking about the earlier

19 statement. It doesn't have paragraph numbers.

20 MR. ALARID: I was going to go on to the 2008 -- I was going to

21 go on to the 2008 where he further clarifies.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I just want to be clear now about the 1998

23 statement.

24 MR. ALARID: Yes.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there anything in it about the car.

Page 2739

1 MR. ALARID: There is.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: That was a proposition that you had put to the

3 witness.

4 MR. ALARID: Yes. Paragraph two, Your Honour, of that page 3.

5 He came to the Varda factory with three other men.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see.

7 MR. ALARID:

8 Q. Mr. Witness, can you see --

9 MR. COLE: Just a moment. Your Honour, as part of my objection,

10 I'd like to point out two features here, and counsel is compounding

11 matters by putting unclear or ambiguous propositions to the witness.

12 Now, in this paragraph, as we can see here, he has given a

13 limited description: "It was a new car, the newest type of limousine."

14 Now, that's a description of a car. That's quite something other than no

15 description of a car at all.

16 And second matter that I would like to raise an objection about

17 is counsel's proposition to the witness that he had said Milan Lukic was

18 short.

19 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I'm sorry --

20 MR. COLE: Just a moment --

21 MR. ALARID: I corrected myself in reading out the statement that

22 it was medium.

23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, your microphone.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Now these are points, of course, which you

Page 2740

1 may raise in re-examination, Mr. Cole, quite properly. It doesn't mean

2 that you can't raise them now.

3 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Alarid, continuously during these sections in

4 which you have participated, I don't know why you do so, but I would

5 recommend you that you really faithfully cite the passages to the

6 witnesses, because you have contributed continuously to confusion by

7 altering the text that you are cited and, on many occasions, combining

8 texts that are additionally confusing the situation.

9 So I will expect you from your professional integrity, when you

10 refer to transcript put to the witness, please do carefully your work

11 before.

12 Thank you very much.

13 MR. ALARID: Yes, sir, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, part of the reason why you get into

15 that difficulty is that when you're using previous statements, you must

16 put the statements in front of the witness. Have the statements put in

17 front of the witness. Judge David's points are well taken.

18 MR. ALARID: I take the admonition. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Have you read the second paragraph, sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, you gave a description of a newer kind of limousine. What

22 do you mean by "limousine"?

23 A. A new car. What else could I say? Limousine, white, a new car.

24 Q. Don't you think, from your vantage point of the house, it would

25 be easier to tell colour?

Page 2741

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. Wouldn't it be true, though, if you had known this car to be

7 Ms. Zukic's car and also seen it driven past your home on several

8 occasions, that should have been something that was fresh in your mind in

9 1998, as opposed to being disseminated to the Prosecution just a couple

10 days ago?

11 A. The car drove past, and we all knew who drove it, and we all knew

12 who the car belonged to, and that's all I know.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.

14 MR. COLE: Yes. I wonder if we could have the witness's age

15 redacted, page 62, line 24.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

17 MR. ALARID:

18 Q. Sir, that wasn't the question I asked you. What I asked you is,

19 if you had seen this car personally, also knowing it to be the car of

20 Ms. Zukic, before the incident at Varda --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- if you had seen it and known it, shouldn't this have been

23 something you disseminated to the investigators in 1998 as an important

24 fact for this crime?

25 A. Maybe I didn't mention it at the beginning, and then the next

Page 2742

1 time I did. I know this for sure, that this car belonged to Behka.

2 MR. ALARID: Could now the witness be shown 1D10-2775 -- well,

3 actually, Your Honour, could we tender the first exhibit, the first

4 statement 1998, into evidence at this point?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D10-2765 will become Exhibit

7 number D163.

8 MR. ALARID:

9 Q. Now, sir, as we go to that, isn't it true that in your first

10 statement, you didn't know if this incident had happened in April or May?

11 Isn't that true?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And, in fact, in your first statement, you indicated that it was

14 at the beginning -- or excuse me, end of April, beginning of May, best of

15 your recollection?

16 A. At the time.

17 Q. But in your --

18 MR. ALARID: Can we go down to the --

19 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, just a correction. The previous

20 Exhibit is 1D63.

21 MR. ALARID: Okay.

22 Q. Now, sir, do you recall giving a statement April 15th, 2008, to

23 the ICTY, as a clarification of your 1998 statement ten years earlier?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And in that -- in that meeting in April, you were asked if you

Page 2743

1 could fix the date more accurately. Who were you asked this by?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 MR. ALARID: Could the court assistant show the witness

4 paragraph 9, page 2 of that statement, and they are numbered paragraphs.

5 Q. I ask you to read the last sentence of that, and ask you if it's

6 correct that you do believe it was between May and the sixth month. What

7 does that mean? Clarify please?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So are you stating that it could have been any time during May or

10 any time during June?

11 A. Well, yes, that's all I remember.

12 MR. ALARID: Could release go to paragraph 12 on page 3.

13 Q. And isn't it true that in that statement, you indicated that you

14 cannot recall the colour or make of the car; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. But, again, wouldn't this have been an excellent opportunity to

17 mention Ms. Zukic or that it was her car or that you had participated in

18 the burial or removal of her body?

19 A. I participated in the removal of her body, that's true.

20 Q. No, but, sir, what I'm asking you is, when you were in this

21 proofing -- or this statement session in April of 2008, isn't that an

22 excellent time discussing -- even if you couldn't know the make or model

23 of the car, discussing that you knew whose car it was and, in fact, had

24 seen that car on several occasions?

25 A. Yes. This car belongs to the lady named Zukic. I saw it at

Page 2744

1 least twice or three times, and Zukic's first name was Behka.

2 Q. Did anyone tell you that Ms. Zukic's car was important to proving

3 this case?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Then, again, wouldn't it have been an excellent opportunity in

6 April of 2008 to have brought up Ms. Zukic's vehicle?

7 A. Well, how should I know? No one asked. That's all I can tell

8 you.

9 Q. Could you please read paragraph 13 for the Court, please.

10 A. You want me to read it?

11 Q. Yes, sir. Please read it out loud.

12 A. "I saw Milan Lukic for the first time only after the war began.

13 When he came to Varda factory and killed seven people, I didn't know his

14 identity. I learned only later from other people that it was Milan

15 Lukic."

16 Q. Who told you it was Milan Lukic? Who were these other people?

17 A. The first was Smaila, the mother of Ibrisim who was killed, but I

18 knew him myself by sight.

19 Q. But I thought you hadn't really seen him before this moment at

20 Varda factory.

21 A. I saw him coming into the Varda factory.

22 Q. And that was the first time you saw this person who you described

23 in your statement as being 30 to 35, and on the chubby side, of medium

24 height; correct?

25 A. That is true, but I knew him from seeing him before.

Page 2745

1 Q. When and where did you see him before?

2 A. I saw him when the war began, when he started going around Dusce,

3 when the killings started.

4 Q. Sir, you said you know -- you knew a lot of people who worked at

5 the Varda factory. Did you know a Sevko Ustamujic?

6 A. Yes, I knew him. He was the chief of the locksmith workshop, or

7 the supervisor, whichever you want to call it.

8 MR. ALARID: Could the court assistant please put on the screen

9 1D10-3184, and what I really want the witness to look at is the last page

10 of the B/C/S statement, which is a map written by Mr. Ustamujic.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much longer will you be, Mr. Alarid?

12 MR. ALARID: Other than going through Mr. Ustamujic's statement,

13 some of the names which he mentions in his name, Mr. Ustamujic is a

14 purported eyewitness to the Varda shooting. On June 10th, 1992, he drew

15 a map, identified Mr. Nedzad as one of the victims, and Cancar. In

16 collaboration with this witness, or at least in sync with this witness,

17 however, he identifies two other assailants perfectly and does not

18 identify Milan Lukic.

19 So going through the statement, maybe 30 minutes.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: You would then be in excess of the time that I

21 had in mind. The Prosecutor spent an hour and 35 minutes, and you would

22 have the same time as the Prosecutor. After the break, you will then

23 have about 25 minutes.

24 Proceed.

25 MR. ALARID:

Page 2746

1 Q. Now, sir, this was a map that was attached to a statement by

2 Mr. Ustamujic, and it describes several buildings of which I believe were

3 in the picture that you started circling on. What I would ask you is,

4 first, to look at this map and see if it accurately reflects the area,

5 although I note the guard shack is not written on this map.

6 A. I can't find my way around this map. I can't remember any of it.

7 MR. ALARID: Can we bring up the photograph, please, that the

8 witness marked up. I believe it was P153, and I believe the marked one

9 is P154, which might be a little bit better reference for the witness.

10 Q. Okay. Witness, I put to you that you have a D over the -- or

11 excuse me, a G over the guard shack, that little building out in the

12 middle of the yard; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And isn't it true that that building in the foreground closest to

15 the river, next to the left of the guard shack, is the mechanical shed?

16 A. Yes, and the administration.

17 Q. And that white building just to the left of that, isn't it true

18 that that's the upright saw or the JGR building, plant?

19 A. It's the administration of the sawmill.

20 Q. And further off to the left and off the screen is the saw hall

21 and then the main Varda factory; correct?

22 A. Yes, but you can't see it.

23 MR. ALARID: Could we bring the map back on the screen, please.

24 I'm again referring to 1D10-3188.

25 Q. And, so, now that you've had an opportunity to look at the

Page 2747

1 picture, even though this map is not to scale, is it relatively accurate

2 as to the position of the mechanical building as well as what you call

3 the administration building?

4 A. As far as I can see, that is so. It's so, but I'm not sure.

5 Q. Where would you put the guard shack?

6 MR. ALARID: If the court assistant could assist with the pen,

7 the witness, I'd ask him where he would place the guard shack.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the road. That's the river.

9 Maybe somewhere here.

10 MR. ALARID:

11 Q. Is that the guard shack that you put in the -- in the photograph

12 that you circled, is that where the guard shack would be in relation to

13 the mechanical building and the administrative building?

14 A. I can't see where the guardhouse is. I'm not sure.

15 Q. No, sir. I'm conceding that the guard shack is not on this map

16 as you circled it on the photograph. I'm asking you to draw the guard

17 shack where it should be in relation to the mechanical building and the

18 administrative building, as well as noting the workers' entrance and car

19 entrance which are noted on the map.

20 MR. COLE: Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cole.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't do any of that.

23 MR. COLE: Well --

24 MR. ALARID: If the witness cannot, I can't push him any further.

25 MR. COLE: That takes care of my objection, the witness's answer.

Page 2748

1 Thank you, sir, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, we're going to take the break now.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.

6 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honour --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Twenty minutes.

8 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, since I am moving on, I would like to

9 tender the witness statement of 15 April 2008, which is 1D10-2775,

10 B/C/S 1D10-2780, into evidence.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

12 Mr. Cole.

13 MR. COLE: Yes. I'm not sure. I think, Your Honour, that's the

14 statement of Mr. Ustamujic.

15 MR. ALARID: No.

16 MR. COLE: It's not?

17 MR. ALARID: The statement of Mr. Ustamujic is a Gorazde sector

18 SUP statement from the 3rd of April, 1996 that was tendered with the

19 packet of this witness.

20 MR. COLE: Can I just be clear, then, which statement counsel is

21 seeking to be admitted now?

22 MR. ALARID: The supplemental statement by this witness of 15 of

23 April 2008.

24 MR. COLE: Yes, I'm sorry. I have no objection.

25 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as 1D64, Your Honours.

Page 2749

1 MR. ALARID:

2 Q. And, sir, before I move on further, I would like to refer you to

3 a statement made by you earlier in your testimony, when I queried you

4 about basically: "Then, again, wouldn't it have been an excellent

5 opportunity in April of 2008 ..."

6 MR. ALARID: Can we go to the transcript page 66, lines 1

7 through 4.

8 Q. "Then, again, wouldn't it have been an excellent opportunity in

9 April of 2008 to have brought up Ms. Zukic's vehicle?"

10 Your answer was: "Well, how should I would know? No one asked.

11 That's all I can tell you."

12 So what I'm asking you, sir, is: Who asked you this week about

13 the Zukic vehicle that might have refreshed your recollection to mention

14 her in your most recent proofing session?

15 A. I wanted myself to mention it.

16 MR. ALARID: Can we bring up 1D10-3184, the statement of

17 Mr. Ustamujic.

18 Q. Now, sir, while we're bringing that on the screen, how well did

19 you know Mr. Sevko Ustamujic?

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2750

1 Q. Did you know him to have been working through June of -- of 1992

2 at the Varda factory?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Assuming he had been working inside the factory, would you defer

5 to his recollection of the death of Cancar?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Ask another question. It doesn't help

7 whether he would defer to the recollection of somebody else.

8 MR. ALARID:

9 Q. Did you know that Mr. Ustamujic had given a statement regarding

10 the shooting of Cancar Musan and Nedzad Bektas?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Had you heard of an earlier kidnapping from the Varda factory

13 that occurred approximately 15 or 16 days, on May 25th, 1992?

14 A. No.

15 MR. COLE: Excuse me, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

17 MR. COLE: It's a redaction matter, if I could, on page 71,

18 line 9. It's giving an indication of his association with the Varda

19 factory. I wonder if we could have lines 9 to 11 redacted -- well, in

20 fact, lines 7 to 11, because there certainly the English is a little bit

21 ambiguous; 7 to 11 on page 71.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: The reference to the Varda factory, is it?

23 MR. COLE: Yes, sir. It's an indication that it may indicate his

24 connection with the Varda factory. There are all sorts of matters that

25 are coming out now, but by putting them together, it can paint a picture.

Page 2751

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Yes, yes. The court deputy will

2 present that for the redaction.

3 MR. ALARID:

4 Q. The date of the shooting that you witnessed at the Varda factory,

5 you indicated that it may have started -- or the incident might have

6 started any time between 9.00 and 11.00. Is that your testimony?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you see a freight vehicle with a yellow tarpaulin arrive at

9 the front gate of the sawmill?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that the area that we're -- or that

12 you've described today is not the front gate of the Varda factory? Is

13 that true?

14 A. I don't know how to describe it.

15 Q. Isn't it true that the area where the guard shack is known as the

16 workers' entrance and not the front entrance?

17 A. No. It's only the entrance to the sawmill.

18 Q. Would it be fair to say that that's where the workers at the

19 sawmill would enter?

20 A. Not that gate.

21 Q. Did you know Muho --

22 A. I haven't heard the name well.

23 Q. It's Podzic, P-o-d-z-i-c?

24 A. Podzic, you mean.

25 Q. Yes, sir. Do you know him?

Page 2752

1 A. Yes. He was the manager at the sawmill in Varda.

2 Q. And do you know Ramiz Karaman?

3 A. Yes. He was the foreman in the timber section.

4 Q. Now, did you know some Serbians named Nenad Tanaskovic, otherwise

5 known as Neso?

6 A. Vaguely. I seem to remember he was a driver.

7 Q. Well, actually, wasn't it Slavko Trifkovic that was one of the

8 Varda drivers before the war?

9 A. I can't seem to recall that.

10 Q. Did you know some workers at the factory named --

11 MR. ALARID: And if, just in case I do mispronounce, we could go

12 to page 2 of the statement in B/C/S and English, as the names are written

13 on that page.

14 Q. Now, I'm looking at the middle of the page, sir, of at some names

15 of the workers at the factory.

16 Do you know a Nusret Dzafic?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you know an Islam Cero?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you know a Husein Mujakic?

21 A. No.

22 Q. But you did know Nedzad Bektas; correct?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. If I were to tell you that the aforementioned workers witnessed

25 Nedzad being taken away by Tanaskovic and Trifkovic, what would you have

Page 2753

1 to say about that?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. If I were to tell you that Mr. Ustamujic did not mention Milan

4 Lukic being present on June 10, 1992 in the abduction and killing of

5 Nedzad, what would you have to say about that?

6 A. You should first ask him where he was hiding.

7 Q. If he was in the factory, would that be a better vantage point

8 than where you were in hiding by the barrels and the henhouse?

9 MR. COLE: Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.

11 MR. COLE: Well, "in the factory" could be anywhere, and, with

12 respect, it's not an appropriate line of questioning. "If I were to tell

13 you," we don't know what the basis of that is; but, I suppose, in

14 summary, Your Honour, it's just not an appropriate line of questioning to

15 put some hypothetical issue to the witness.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree. I agree, Mr. Alarid.

17 Move on.

18 MR. ALARID:

19 Q. Did you know --

20 MR. ALARID: And going to page 3 of the statement for the names,

21 please.

22 Q. Did you know a worker, Abdulah Hamak [sic]?

23 A. It's not Hamak, it's Jamak. Yes, he was a warestock worker in

24 the workshop.

25 Q. And did you know Memis Cancar?

Page 2754

1 A. No.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's collection: Warehouse not

3 warestock.

4 MR. ALARID:

5 Q. Did you know Camil Kesmer?

6 A. No.

7 MR. ALARID: Just a moment, Your Honour.

8 Q. This person that you claimed to be Milan Lukic, did you ever get

9 a look at his face?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did he have any facial hair or distinguishing features that you

12 could notice from that vantage other than what you've already described

13 in your statement?

14 A. He was clean-shaven.

15 MR. ALARID: At this time, Your Honour, I would tender 1D10-3184

16 into evidence, and we would have no further questions.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.

18 MR. COLE: Yes. Yes, Your Honour. I presume the counsel is

19 talking about the statement of Mr. Ustamujic which we can see on the

20 screen. In my submission, just because counsel runs through a list of

21 names and puts them to a witness, and here even getting a no, in most

22 cases is not a basis for admission of the statement of a person who is

23 not a witness in this case into the evidence through this witness. There

24 is no relevance that I can see.

25 On top of that, I think some notification that this statement

Page 2755

1 will be part of the Defence cross-examination came through at about 9.00

2 this morning. So if there's any suggestion it might be admitted, I would

3 certainly like the opportunity to read it.

4 If I could just have a moment.

5 So, first, just summarising, it hasn't been shown that it's

6 relevant in any way, and, of course, counsel is free to call this person

7 as a witness if he wants to get this evidence before the Court.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

9 On those two points, Mr. Alarid.

10 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, I think what's important is

11 that - and, you know, I know the Prosecution has made this caveat

12 before - is that they're sort of not responsible for the content of

13 statements that they've, in fact, tendered to us through the discovery

14 and disclosure process. However, what we do have is a signed and regular

15 statement of the witness that I think, on its face, is -- is very

16 reliable.

17 I think certain points within the statement, with regards to this

18 witness and his knowledge of the persons at the Varda factory, have been

19 confirmed, and, of course, some have been denied; and I wouldn't have

20 expected otherwise from someone who had been retired interest the factory

21 for 10 years prior to the incident.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: But the point being made is about the statement

23 that you're seeking to tender now.

24 MR. ALARID: And I would simply tender it as a statement that is

25 inconsistent with the testimony of the witness, that is otherwise regular

Page 2756

1 on its face, and within a fact that we are operating in a Tribunal that

2 doings accept hearsay, and foundational issues that I think would make

3 admission of this proper.

4 In the alternative, Your Honour, I would ask simply that the map

5 be attached, the handwritten map, as an alternative, but I believe that

6 it is proper for the entire statement to come in.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is an age-old issue in the Tribunal. Let

8 us see how we will decide it.

9 MR. ALARID: And I believe we marked the map, Your Honour.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole, anything more on this point,

12 particularly if you have anything from the jurisprudence of the Tribunal.

13 MR. COLE: I don't have any jurisprudence, but if I could make

14 these points, please, sir.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

16 MR. COLE: Firstly, statements --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MR. COLE: Firstly, sir, I don't have anything from the

19 jurisprudence point of view; but, of course, statements and material is

20 disclosed to the Defence with good and bad. We don't select what goes

21 outs, so not everything supports the Prosecution's case, of course.

22 Now, the statement in question, the witness hasn't read it, I

23 presume. He hasn't been asked. Counsel hasn't read it. I don't know if

24 the Chamber has read the contents of it. In any event, the witness

25 didn't agree that he knew most of the names that were contained in the

Page 2757

1 statement that was put to him. It hasn't been authenticated.

2 Presumably, it's the statement of this man, but it hasn't been

3 authenticated. There is the process of 92 bis or 92 ter or calling,

4 potentially calling, the witness viva voce, if counsel wants to do that.

5 In relation to the map that was drawn, as I recall, the witness

6 did make a mark on the map; but, then, with counsel's concession, which

7 was that he concedes the guard shack was not on the map, so the focal

8 point of this is not even on the map. Then I think the witness, and I

9 haven't looked at the spot, but I think we would find the witness wasn't

10 able to help in the end. He was summarising a little bit confusing, the

11 map.

12 So, in total, my friend, with respect, hasn't substantiated why

13 this witness statement should be introduced into evidence through this

14 witness. There's -- the connection is far too tenuous and I would object

15 strongly.

16 Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, very quickly.

18 MR. ALARID: Briefly, Your Honour. Simply, I think we've offered

19 this staple not necessarily for the truth of the matter asserted because

20 that's for a later date, and I can see that to raise the level of

21 reliability of this statement for the Chamber's purposes; and, of course,

22 you're in the position to gauge the weight or credibility of any piece of

23 evidence that we submit.

24 However, we did put this to this witness, and I think from an

25 impeachment of -- of this witness, it is proper; and without the other

Page 2758

1 safeguard --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: But he denied everything.

3 MR. ALARID: Well, but what he -- but what he did was he did

4 admit that some of these workers were there. And what I find surprising

5 is we've been presented with a witness that has no reference to the

6 actual date and time as noted in the indictment. Here, I've submitted a

7 witness statement taken before this witness ever gave his first

8 statement --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have no authentication of this statement,

10 Mr. Alarid.

11 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, I mean, again, it appears regular

12 on its face, and I think it could be you --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down. The French

14 booth really cannot follow. Thank you.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, we are not with you on this one.

17 The points made by the Prosecutor are valid, in our view; and something

18 that occurs to me, personally, is the total lack of authentication. You

19 may, of course, call this person as an a witness in your case, should you

20 be called upon to present a case.

21 MR. ALARID: Well, and I agree, Your Honour. I mean, in all due

22 diligence, we do have to follow up on these leads when they come up. I

23 mean, I think that's very important, and that's why I was hoping at least

24 to tender it at this point, not for the weight, understanding the

25 limitations --