Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4471

 1                           Monday, 26 January 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I understand there are some preliminary matters.

 6     Let us deal with them as quickly as possible.  Who is first?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I guess I can go first.

 8             I do need to go into private session to deal with the first

 9     matter that I have.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

11                           [Private session]

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Page 4472











11  Pages 4472-4489 redacted. Private session.















Page 4490

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 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Madam, with respect to the road from -- or the route of these

 7     school bus from Rujiste to the school, what route did it take, and what

 8     is the approximate distances between the various villages that are

 9     located there, and with respect to the ...

10        A.   From our village, Rujiste, we traveled three kilometers to the

11     village of Klasnik where we went to the first four grades of primary

12     school, and then after that, up to the eighth group, we went to Prelovo,

13     which was some 10 kilometers away, and we took the bus, and then we went

14     to secondary school in Visegrad, which is about 20 kilometers away from

15     our village.

16        Q.   Now, as far as the route taken by the students to get to the

17     school and eventually to get to Visegrad, what is the order of the

18     villages along the road, starting out from Rujiste heading towards

19     Visegrad?  What villages would one have to pass on the route to school?

20        A.   Rujiste, Klasnik, Prelovo, then there are some small hamlets,

21     Koritnik and Visegrad.

22        Q.   And now this route taken by the students and then by the bus when

23     you went to the other school, is this a paved road or some other type of

24     route?

25        A.   It was not paved.  I don't know how I can explain it.  It was

Page 4491

 1     cobblestones.

 2        Q.   Where there any other roads leading to Visegrad from Rujiste?

 3        A.   No.  It was the only road.

 4        Q.   You mentioned the village of Koritnik.  With respect to Koritnik,

 5     was it possible to go through Rujiste to Visegrad by any other route

 6     other than the route you described?

 7        A.   No.  That was the only road you could reach Visegrad by.

 8        Q.   Now, with respect to the time period that you spent with

 9     Mr. Milan Lukic in school --

10             MR. IVETIC:  I'd ask first of all for Exhibit 65 ter 39 to be

11     call up.  That should be number 1D 22-0282, a document received by the

12     Defence in response to a request for assistance of the Bosnian organs.

13        Q.   And I'll ask you to review the same and once it comes up and tell

14     me if it comports or reflects your recollection of the time period that

15     Milan Lukic attended school and the specific nature of his studies there.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.

17             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.  There has been some

18     correspondence with the Defence on the issue of exhibits in relation to

19     the schooling.  I note my learned friend has indicated a request for

20     assistance by the Bosnian organs.  I wonder if we could just clarify

21     that, is this document in response to an official request for assistance

22     to the Bosnian authorities and return to the Defence through official

23     channels or some other way because the correspondence that we've had with

24     the Defence indicates that this document or certainly a similar one was

25     handed over to a member of the Defence team at the school.  So it's a

Page 4492

 1     little bit ambiguous, the explanation on the record at the moment.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I'd be happy to explain, Your Honour.  I've done it

 3     so again on multiple occasions.  We requested this document of the school

 4     district in Visegrad, that is to say that the Defence officially

 5     requested it.  The official organs of the school tendered a response to

 6     it, a written response, which was handed to members of our Defence team

 7     and which we have.  It was stamped by the school, et cetera.  I don't

 8     know what further information is required by the Prosecution.  Not with

 9     respect to this document, but with respect to another document, I've time

10     and again encouraged them to contact the school to verify that what I've

11     said is accurate.  I will note that with respect to the --

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So the answer is it's the official organs of the

13     school.

14             MR. IVETIC:  There's no other way for me to get that [Overlapping

15     speakers] ...

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's it.  Let's move on.

17             MR. IVETIC:

18        Q.   And madam, I think I've already asked you to review this document

19     and see if it -- and I've lost my question, see if -- if it comports or

20     reflects your recollection of the time period that Milan Lukic attended

21     that particular school and the specific nature of his studies there

22     according to your knowledge.

23        A.   Yes, I remember that he attended that school, but I don't know

24     precisely what subjects he took.

25        Q.   Okay.  If we can -- I guess we have to tender this one before we

Page 4493

 1     go to the next one.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Could we tender this one as the next available 1D

 3     exhibit number.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

 6     Exhibit 1D 105.

 7             Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  If we can go on to the next exhibit.  It

 9     should be 65 ter number 40, and it ought to be at 1D 22-0281, and these

10     will be the records from the -- from the earlier -- the elementary

11     school.

12        Q.   And I would ask the same, for these records if you would take a

13     look at it and see if it comports with your knowledge and recollection of

14     the time periods when Mr. Milan Lukic attended elementary school, and

15     that would have been the matters that you discussed earlier in private

16     session.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole.

18             MR. COLE:  Yes.  I wonder, Your Honour, if we could just have on

19     the record where the document has come from.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Do I need to read the document, Your Honour, or does

21     it speak for itself?

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Is it the same kind of information you need as

23     to whether it's official or a government document or what?

24             MR. COLE:  Yes, Your Honour.  I don't wish to take up a lot of

25     time, but there has been considerable correspondence, and it hasn't been

Page 4494

 1     clear until now where these document have come from.  So if it's been

 2     handed over personally, fine.  It's been suggested in the past that the

 3     documents have come as a result of an official request for assistance,

 4     and I just want to be clear.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How did you get this document?  Was it the

 6     result of an official request for assistance.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I will read the document then:

 8             "Pursuant to Article 159 of the law on general legal procedures

 9     (Official Gazette of the Republika Srpska, number 13/02) and on the

10     request of Rasic Jelena from Belgrade, we issue the following."

11             So the school organs of Visegrad upon a formal request from the

12     Defence issued this document, and I'd be happy to provide any other

13     information for you.  That's a formal request from the Defence team to a

14     formal organ.  If you want to zoom in on the stamp, you'll see stamp

15     issued as a -- that the stamp on this document is a formal official stamp

16     from a state organ, that is to say, the school authorities in Visegrad of

17     Republika Srpska.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Mr. Groome.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just so it's clear, the approach that

20     the Prosecution has taken has to mark these documents for identification

21     and then on paper provide the Chamber with the copy of the

22     correspondence, the request not simply to a local grammar school in the

23     area where the accused lives that may have a bias one way or the other,

24     but to the official representative of the government to the Tribunal.

25     That person then goes and does some investigation and returns with

Page 4495

 1     whether or not they can satisfy a request.  So in many ways, an official

 2     request if I assistance as the imprimatur of the government when it goes

 3     and it finds a particular document, which these documents do not have.

 4     While they may be requested by Ms. Jelena Rasic by the local grammar

 5     school principal, they are not the same as an official request by the

 6     Defence to an official representative of the Tribunal.  So I ask that

 7     they be marked for identification and then -- and provide the same

 8     underlining documents that the Prosecution has and intends to with the

 9     remainder of the documents that it will introduce so that the Court can

10     assess what was requested, what was returned, and make its own assessment

11     as to whether the document should be admitted into evidence.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, it's a tenant of many jurisdictions

13     including this one that public documents obtained from public officials

14     can even be introduced via the Bar table, not even through a witness.

15     The document speaks for itself as to what was requested.  It provides

16     data based upon the official records of the school and is signed by an

17     authorized official of the school and stamped by an official of the

18     school.  I don't see what more -- if Mr. Groome is contending that

19     depending on who you ask for documents from there's a bias, then how do

20     we ever know any document arising from there is not subject to a bias?

21     Who's the official that the Prosecution asks for these documents from?

22     These documents were requested whether orally or in writing from an

23     official, and we received the documents, and the official has identified

24     the school at issue.  It has a stamp.  That can all be contacted and

25     checked.  Again, we're running into this issue where we have these

Page 4496

 1     individuals on our witness list.  We took them off the witness list based

 2     on the understanding that the documents received from officials were to

 3     be used --

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, let me see if I understand it.  You

 5     would have contacted --

 6             MR. IVETIC:  The school in Visegrad, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  [Previous translation continues] ... the primary

 8     school, Vuk Karadzic, and asked for information concerning the accused

 9     and the director, who is Mr. Slavco Sandev, he produces this document.

10     He prepares it.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And how does he prepare it?  By doing what?

13             MR. IVETIC:  Well, as the custodian of the records of the

14     elementary schools in Visegrad from the time period when the accused

15     attended school, he would go to the archives, review the archives --

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  All that information is not there.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours, I return to the point then

18     again.  We had these people on the witness list, but we have been asked

19     to do 45 witnesses.  If I have to bring records custodians in for

20     documents when the Prosecution submits wholesale documents without

21     records custodians, some of these that they claim that they seized

22     somewhere, that they don't even know who generated them, I don't know how

23     to proceed.  We have to take into account fairness of the proceedings, we

24     have to take into account efficiency of the proceedings and ensure that

25     justice is undertaken.  Again, they've known about this document for some

Page 4497

 1     time.  I've invited them to contact the school officials on numerous

 2     occasions, and, Your Honour, if I may make a segue into this, the

 3     Prosecution requested the original of another document that came from the

 4     school.  I did not have that original initially.  I obtained that

 5     original.  Made a meeting with the Office of the Prosecution.  What did

 6     the Office of the Prosecution do with respect to that original?  They

 7     asked for a photocopy of it, which is the same thing they've had since

 8     day one.  So really I think -- I submit that the Prosecution is really

 9     just trying to do -- is trying to stall these proceedings by objecting to

10     these documents that can be verified on the face, and they speak for

11     themselves in terms of the information that they contain.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It may be that it comes down to a question of

13     the weight to be attached to it, you know, in the absence of other

14     confirming information.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honour, I'd be more than happy to call

16     the records custodians, as long as they don't count as one of my limited,

17     very precious 45 witnesses.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  All right.  We'll admit the document.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Actually, I don't know whether the witness has

21     already answered with respect to this document, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  All right.  Go ahead and ...

23             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

24        Q.   Madam, with respect to this document, I would ask that you look

25     through it and tell us whether this comports with your knowledge and

Page 4498

 1     recollection of the time period when Mr. Milan Lukic attended the

 2     elementary school Zelimir Djuric - Zeljo.

 3        A.   This document is correct.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Now I would submit this document for the next 1D

 6     exhibit, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  When you say it's correct, what do you mean?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct that he enrolled in

 9     the 1st grade in that year, just as it says here, and he went to school,

10     Zelimir Djuric, Zeljo, in Prelovo.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.  Mr. Cole may have some questions.

12     Go ahead.  We'll admit it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

14     Exhibit 1D 106.  Thank you, Your Honours.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Now, Madam Witness, with respect to these proceedings, we've had

17     some witnesses come and tell us some things about how they were able to

18     travel to and from school from various villages, based upon your

19     knowledge of the area, is it possible to have children from Koritnik go

20     to school in Prelovo but to have them go through Rujiste to get to the

21     school in Prelovo?  Was that one of the routes of transport that was

22     available during the time period when you and Mr. Lukic were attending

23     school?

24        A.   It's impossible to go through Koritnik and past Rujiste in order

25     to get to school.  That is incorrect.

Page 4499

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now, during the time period that you knew -- strike

 2     that.  During the time period that you attended school with Milan Lukic,

 3     did you ever have occasion to witness him smoking cigarettes or any other

 4     type of tobacco?

 5        A.   No, he never smoked.

 6        Q.   With respect to the time period when you were -- when you knew

 7     Milan Lukic and when you were travelling to school with Milan Lukic as

 8     well as in school, how would you describe his interactions and behavior

 9     with regard to other persons, be they children or adults, be they Serb or

10     non-Serb?

11        A.   He always behaved very well towards Serbs, Muslims, older people.

12     He was always cheerful.  He never caused anyone any problems.

13        Q.   Now, you already mentioned -- strike that.  With respect to when

14     the children would socialise, did you ever have occasion to eye-witness

15     Mr. Milan Lukic initiating a fight or roughing up other kids?

16        A.   No.  He never engaged in quarrels.  He was always in good

17     company.

18        Q.   Based upon your knowledge and information as to Milan Lukic

19     gained from the time period that you spent with him and knew him, how

20     would you -- how would you describe for us his character?  What type of

21     person is he?

22        A.   Very positive person, upbeat.  I can only say the best things

23     about him.

24        Q.   And what kind of student was he?

25        A.   Good.  Average, I would say.

Page 4500

 1        Q.   And with respect to -- with respect to Mr. Milan Lukic, when is

 2     the last time that you personally saw Milan Lukic?

 3        A.   In 1984, I left.  Then I came back in 1986.  That was the last

 4     time I saw him.  I've not seen him since.

 5        Q.   Based on your contacts with your own relatives, et cetera, and

 6     your knowledge, did Mr. Milan Lukic remain in Visegrad municipality upon

 7     the completion of the schooling?

 8        A.   I learned that he was in Switzerland for a while, and later he

 9     lived at Bezanijska Kosa in Belgrade.

10        Q.   Thank you.  With respect to -- strike that.  Let me just -- with

11     respect to the kids in school when you were growing up, did -- hang on

12     one moment.

13                           [Defence counsel confer]

14             MR. IVETIC:

15        Q.   What kind of activities would Milan Lukic be involved in during

16     the breaks in school between classes, if you know?

17        A.   He would play along just like all the other kids.

18             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can just briefly go back into private

19     session for one or two other questions that might otherwise reveal

20     personal information about the witness.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4501

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11   (redacted)

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14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Madam Witness, I thank you.  I have no further questions on

19     direct for you.

20             MR. IVETIC:  I pass the witness, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole.

22             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.  Yes, Your Honour.  I

23     have some questions that I would ask that we go into private session for.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

25                           [Private session]

Page 4502











11  Pages 4502-4504 redacted. Private session.















Page 4505

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10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13                           --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.

16             MR. COLE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             Could we go into private session, please.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4506











11  Pages 4506-4509 redacted. Private session.















Page 4510

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11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

13             MR. COLE:

14        Q.   Now, you were shown some documents from schools that were

15     attended by Milan Lukic in your testimony earlier.  Do you recall those

16     documents?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, those same documents, they were shown to you during the

19     course of your proofing earlier today.  Is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So when they were shown to you in this courtroom, you had already

22     refreshed your memory from the information contained in them, hadn't you?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And if you're going to be fair, you would have to accept that

25     without the information that was contained in those school documents, you

Page 4511

 1     would have no idea about any years that -- specific years that

 2     Milan Lukic attended any school.

 3        A.   It's true that he started school the year I said, 1974.

 4        Q.   Do you remember -- you were asked if the contents of the school

 5     certificates were correct in terms of information about Milan Lukic.  Do

 6     you remember being asked that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And did you confirm that the information in those two school

 9     certificates was correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So can you tell us now what the information is that you confirmed

12     was correct.  Can you remember it?

13        A.   It said that he started school, the first grade of elementary

14     school in Klasnik in 1974.  I confirm that to be true.

15             MR. IVETIC:  And Your Honour, I had to check the transcript, and

16     I had to object to Mr. Cole's question as far as they misstate the

17     question that was asked.  I specifically asked if it comports with her

18     knowledge and recollection of the time periods that Milan Lukic attended

19     elementary school, and that's at page 23, lines 4 through 8.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.

21             MR. COLE:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.  I'm going to move on

22     from that topic now.

23        Q.   Now, Witness, you left primary school and moved on to secondary

24     school yourself in what year?

25        A.   1980.

Page 4512

 1        Q.   And were you at secondary school with Milan Lukic on any -- in

 2     any year?

 3        A.   Yes, but not in the same school.

 4        Q.   So what secondary school did Milan Lukic attend?

 5        A.   He first trained to become a waiter, and then the next one had to

 6     do with technology.

 7        Q.   Do you remember which secondary school he attended?

 8        A.   They were separate schools, but both were in Visegrad.  I don't

 9     know what the name was of the school that he went to.  I don't remember,

10     actually.

11        Q.   Now, when you were at school, were you friendly with other

12     children who were Muslim children?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And I'm not going to ask you to say them now, but do you remember

15     the names?  If you were asked, could you remember the names of a number

16     of Muslim children that you went to school with?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   So I'll just ask you about some names here and see if you might

19     be able to help with these.  Did you know any Muslim children by the name

20     of Kurspahic when you were going to school?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   So how many years were you at secondary school?

23        A.   Four years.

24        Q.   You don't remember anyone by the surname of Kurspahic while you

25     were at secondary school?

Page 4513

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Anyone by the name of Kurspahic while you were at primary school?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Did you know someone by the name of Jasmina Delija, D-e-l-i-j-a,

 5     while you were at school, either primary or secondary school?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Changing the subject now, when you were you first contacted by

 8     the Milan Lukic Defence in relation to this trial or evidence or

 9     testimony that you may give?

10        A.   In October 2008.

11        Q.   And by what means were you contacted?

12        A.   His sister asked me whether I would agree to make a statement

13     about our socialising and going to school together.

14        Q.   What was the name of his sister?

15        A.   Draginja.

16        Q.   And where does she live?

17        A.   In Belgrade.

18        Q.   So in October, how did she make contact with you?

19        A.   She rang me up on the telephone.

20        Q.   Does that mean that she has been in regular contact with you over

21     the years that she has your telephone number?

22        A.   No, as she got my telephone number from my family.

23        Q.   So did you agree to speak further with members of the Milan Lukic

24     Defence?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4514

 1        Q.   And what was the next contact you had from anyone about this

 2     trial?

 3        A.   Only the lawyer.

 4        Q.   So after October, when was the next contact you had from this

 5     lawyer?

 6        A.   In January of this year.

 7        Q.   So no contact at all with anyone until January of 2009, nothing

 8     at all?

 9        A.   No, no.

10        Q.   And the contact you had, was that from -- well, who was that

11     from, which lawyer?

12        A.   The lawyer.  I've forgotten his name now.  That lawyer.

13        Q.   Is that Mr. Ivetic?

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Seems you are imminently forgettable,

16     Mr. Ivetic.

17             MR. COLE:

18        Q.   And that contact in January, was that phone call, or was that a

19     personal call -- a personal meeting?

20        A.   In January, we met in person.

21        Q.   What was the date of that meeting?

22        A.   I don't know precisely, between the 15th and the 20th,

23     thereabouts.

24        Q.   And did you make a written statement that you signed?

25        A.   No.  We only talked.

Page 4515

 1        Q.   Now, you were firstly scheduled to testify in this trial last

 2     week, weren't you?  That was the original plan?  Have I got that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And was it Monday or Tuesday last week that you were originally

 5     scheduled to testify?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And what's the reason that you weren't able to?  We may --

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. --

 9             MR. COLE:  I think it would be appropriate for closed session for

10     that answer.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  Actually, I don't -- well, go

12     ahead.  We'll go into closed session.  It doesn't matter.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Closed session, yes.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 4516

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

20             MR. COLE:

21        Q.   Now, Witness, when was the last time that you saw Milan Lukic in

22     person?

23        A.   In 1986.

24        Q.   Did you specifically seek him out, or did you see him by chance

25     on that occasion?

Page 4517

 1        A.   No.  I came to Bosnia to stay with my mother, and then I saw him.

 2        Q.   Was it just on the one occasion in 1986?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And have you seen Milan Lukic since that day in 1986?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   But did you recognise him when you walked into court first thing

 7     this afternoon for the first time?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And you, in fact, smiled at Milan Lukic, didn't you, and he

10     smiled back at you?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now, in your testimony earlier, I think you said that when you

13     knew Milan Lukic he was not a smoker, didn't smoke cigarettes.  Have I

14     got that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, I can't remember if you were asked about whether he was an

17     alcohol drinker at the time when you knew him, but -- so I'll ask you

18     now.  Did he, as far as you know, in the years that you knew him, up

19     until -- was it 1984, was he a person who would drink alcohol regularly?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   So I'm just going to ask that a photograph be shown to you.

22             MR. COLE:  And the reference number is Y014-7901.

23        Q.   Can you see that photograph?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Can you see a cigarette in the hand?

Page 4518

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And you can confirm that's a photo of Milan Lukic, can't you?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   I'll just ask you if you could now be shown a photograph

 5     Y014-7908.

 6             Can you see Milan Lukic in this photo?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And you can confirm that is some alcohol that he has in the

 9     bottle in his hand.

10             MR. ALARID:  Objection.  Calls for speculation.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Exactly.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How are you able to say that it is alcohol in

14     the bottle?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it looks like it.  When he

16     went to school, he neither smoked nor drank.  These were probably special

17     occasions when that took place, or I don't know.

18             MR. ALARID:  And, Your Honour, just from a perspective,

19     obviously, that Mr. Cole has not put a time and place and year and

20     otherwise established to the witness that the last time she saw him was

21     in 1986, which by math, would have been the year Mr. Lukic graduated high

22     school and around that time.

23             MR. COLE:  Yes, Your Honour.  These are photographs that were

24     supplied by the Milan Lukic Defence, so they would certainly be in a

25     better position than anyone to provide a date for these photographs.

Page 4519

 1             MR. ALARID:  And, Your Honour, other than them coming from the --

 2     you know, the personal files of the family or what-not or the collection

 3     of the family, unless it's stamped on the photograph as was the first

 4     photograph we showed, D -- I guess it was D 190 had a date on it from the

 5     camera, but we can only assume that the person who programmed the camera

 6     did it correctly, but on these photographs there was no such time stamp

 7     on the photos.  We would have to put Mr. Lukic on to establish all of

 8     them, of course.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.  Proceed.

10             MR. COLE:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   And just finally on the photograph that you're looking at now, on

12     the question of alcohol, does that bottle in Milan Lukic's hand appear to

13     be a common type of beverage available in the Balkans?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Did you know Milan Lukic's parents?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Do you know where his mother is at the present time,

18     Milan Lukic's mother?

19        A.   His mother and his father are currently in Belgrade.  Not

20     currently, what I mean is they live there now.

21        Q.   Do you believe that his father is still alive?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. COLE:  Could we briefly go into closed session, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

25                           [Private session]

Page 4520











11  Pages 4520-4521 redacted. Private session.















Page 4522

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 3             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, a matter to ask, the two photographs

 4     shown to this witness and which you identified be tendered as exhibits.

 5     Could I ask that they both be given exhibit numbers.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be give the

 8     following exhibit numbers:

 9             Document Y014-7901 shall be assigned Exhibit B 231.

10             Document Y 014-7908 shall be assigned Exhibit B 232.  Thank you,

11     Your Honours.

12             MR. COLE:

13        Q.   Now, in your testimony earlier you described Milan Lukic as

14     positive, upbeat, and you said that you can only say the best, and you

15     said also that he was always in good company.  Do you remember saying

16     those things about Milan Lukic?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   So as you are testifying here today, you're saying that you only

19     know good things about him, positive things, and that's the image of him

20     that you would wish to portray to the Court?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And since 1986, what contact have you had with Milan Lukic until

23     today?

24        A.   No contact.

25        Q.   Now, you're aware of the war in Bosnia and the former Yugoslavia,

Page 4523

 1     and no doubt you were able to read about that in newspapers and watch it

 2     on the television news at the time.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And what years is it your understanding that the war -- what

 5     years the war continued through from start to finish?

 6        A.   I don't know precisely.

 7        Q.   Now, during the war and in subsequent years, did you read in the

 8     newspapers or see on the television news items about Milan Lukic in

 9     particular?

10        A.   Yes, I did.

11        Q.   And would it be fair to say that you were aware that he was a

12     fugitive and finally arrested in 2005?

13        A.   Yes, I heard that in the media.

14        Q.   And as you sit there, are you aware that Milan Lukic faces

15     serious charges in this court, including extermination and many murders?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And do you know that it is alleged that he has murdered scores of

18     persons, including putting people in houses and incinerating them to

19     death?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   So you don't know those allegations?

22        A.   No, I don't.

23        Q.   Many people have testified about his misdeeds in this court.  Do

24     you know that?

25             MR. ALARID:  Objection, relevance, improper foundation.

Page 4524

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't see the basis for the objection.

 2             MR. COLE:

 3        Q.   The question is, Are you aware that many people have testified in

 4     this court about his misdeeds, if I can call it that.  You're aware of

 5     that?

 6        A.   I don't know.

 7        Q.   And you say, do you, that he's a good man, still say that?

 8        A.   Yes.  He was like that when I knew him.  I wasn't in the war.  I

 9     don't know what was going on at the time, but the only Milan Lukic I know

10     is a good and positive person.

11        Q.   Do you know anything about the time that Milan Lukic returned

12     from elsewhere in Europe to Visegrad?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Do you know anything as to the circumstances surrounding

15     Milan Lukic's return to Visegrad during the war in Bosnia?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   You see, that proposition I just put to you is included in a

18     document provided to the Office of the Prosecutor by the Defence in

19     describing your testimony.  Do you have any comment to make about that?

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see Mr. Ivetic on his feet.  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I object as to the relevance.  I

22     object as to the foundation, again, as to what the witness knows what the

23     Defence is presenting based on the limited [indiscernible] we have on

24     that time, and I believe she has already testified as to the extent of

25     the contact that she had during the time when the witness lists were

Page 4525

 1     generated when she was contacted and asked whether she would agree to

 2     testify.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So what's the relevance of this, Mr. Cole?

 4             MR. COLE:  Well, we're provided, of course, with very little

 5     information about a witness anyway.  This is an official document

 6     submitted by the Defence about what the witness is intended to testify

 7     about, and I put the exact words from it to the witness, so the relevance

 8     is, firstly, that we've been supplied with information that appears to be

 9     correct, and I believe I'm entitled to ask the witness about a summary of

10     her evidence here, and --

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, go ahead.  Yes.

12             MR. COLE:  I see, Your Honour, that she has answered the

13     question, in any event.  She's -- well, if I could just read the question

14     again.

15        Q.   "You see, the proposition I just put to you is included in a

16     document provided to the Office of the Prosecutor by the Defence in

17     describing your testimony.  Do you have any comment to make about that?"

18             And that question relates to the suggestion you would testify as

19     to the circumstances surrounding Milan Lukic's return to Visegrad during

20     the war.  So any comment about why that would -- that comment would be

21     included in your proposed testimony?

22        A.   No.  No.

23        Q.   Now, in your testimony earlier, page 30, you testified that you

24     learned that -- or you were aware that Milan Lukic went to Switzerland at

25     one stage.  Who did you learn that from?

Page 4526

 1        A.   My relatives from Bosnia.

 2             MR. COLE:  If we could just go into closed session briefly, Your

 3     Honour.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

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16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 4527

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 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

14             MR. COLE:  I'm going to ask that the witness be shown, I think

15     it's Exhibit 1D 90.

16        Q.   Witness, you were shown this photograph before by counsel.  Do

17     you recall that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you pointed out one person, and was that Novica?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And is that the person, Novica Lukic, the person on the immediate

22     left?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So just have a look at the other persons on the photograph.  I

25     don't know that your attention was drawn specifically to them.  Can you

Page 4528

 1     see the other persons in the photo?

 2        A.   I can't really recognise.  Maybe the second one on the right is

 3     Milan, but I'm not certain.

 4        Q.   Yes.  Have you seen that photograph before, before today?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Yes, thank you.

 7             MR. COLE:  If I could just have a moment, Your Honour, I've

 8     managed to cut down the questions that I was intending to ask, and it may

 9     be that I have just a couple more, if any.

10             Yes, just a couple more, Your Honour.  If we could go into closed

11     session.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, closed session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 4529

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 9   (redacted)

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14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

24                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

25        Q.   Madam, we're almost there.  Just a few more questions on my side

Page 4530

 1     at least.

 2             Now, you've been asked by the time period in the tenth month of

 3     last year when you were contacted by the Defence to give testimony in

 4     this case.  At that time, did anyone from the Defence have occasion to

 5     come meet with you and interview you about the extent of the your

 6     knowledge that you could offer as testimony in these proceedings?

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole.

 8             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Even though it's re-examination, of course the

 9     rules relating to leading evidence still apply, and I would just ask my

10     learned friend if he could refrain from leading when he's putting

11     questions to his witness.  Thank you.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, the fact that it's a yes or no question

13     doesn't mean that it's leading.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  I agree.  It's not leading, and it arises

15     from cross-examination.

16             Yes, please answer the question.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18             MR. IVETIC:

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             Now, moving on, madam, I understand the math problem.  Sometimes

21     we're all bad with figures and with adding and calculating, especially

22     when it comes to years.  But just to be clear, during the years when

23     Milan Lukic was attending school in Visegrad, whether that was in

24     Klasnik, Prelovo, or Visegrad itself, how were you travelling to your

25     school?  By what means?

Page 4531

 1        A.   By bus.

 2        Q.   And how was Milan Lukic travelling and attending his school?

 3        A.   The same means.

 4        Q.   And am I to take that to mean that you were on the same bus?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And with respect to that bus, would it drop -- would it drop

 7     students off at the schools that they attended?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And so for the time period that you testified about when you went

10     to school with Milan Lukic -- strike that.

11             MR. IVETIC:  I think that's made my point, Your Honour.  I think

12     the rest would be just pure adding, overstepping.

13             Madam, I thank you for coming here to testify in these

14     proceedings, and on behalf of the Milan Lukic Defence team, I thank you

15     very much for the effort and time to testify and for coming here.  Thank

16     you.

17             No further questions for this witness, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, that concludes your evidence.  We thank

19     you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.  You may now leave.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The next witness.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, the next witness is MLD4.  I don't

23     know, are we scheduled for a break or ...

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The break is usually at 35 minutes after 5.

25     It's 25 minutes to 6.  Do you want us to take it now?

Page 4532

 1             MR. IVETIC:  If it pleases Your Honour, I could take the break

 2     now.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  All right.  We'll take the break now.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 5.22 p.m.

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 5.56 p.m.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  WITNESS MLD4

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.  You may begin.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

15        Q.   Good day, sir.  As you know, my name is Dan Ivetic, and I'm one

16     of the attorneys for Milan Lukic's Defence.  I have to refer to you today

17     as MLD4 to be in line with your protective measures.  Do you understand

18     that?

19        A.   I understand fully.

20        Q.   At this time, with the assistance of the court usher, I would ask

21     for the pseudonym sheet document to be handed to you, and sir, when you

22     have an opportunity to review this document, I would ask that you look at

23     the same and verify that the information contained on it as to yourself -

24     that is, your name, last name, and date of birth - is correct.

25        A.   The information is correct.

Page 4533

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.  If you could please sign -- thank you, sir.  If

 2     you could please sign the document.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  And then, Your Honours, I would submit this is the

 4     next -- to be tendered as the next available 1D exhibit in evidence.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

 7     Exhibit 1D 107 under seal.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Mr. Register.  I'd forgotten that should

 9     be under seal.  That's correct.

10             Is the witness having difficulty with the translation?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The right speaker isn't working

12     properly.

13             MR. IVETIC:

14        Q.   How about now?  Is it working now?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you sir.  For the time being, we are in public session,

17     meaning that everything you are saying is being transmitted, so I would

18     urge you to be careful when answering my questions so as not to reveal

19     your identity, and the first question I have for you is, What ethnicity

20     are you?

21        A.   I'm a Serb.

22        Q.   And which of the former Yugoslav republics were you born in?

23        A.   Bosnia and Herzegovina, what is now Republika Srpska.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I'd ask now to go into private session

Page 4534

 1     to keep protected the identity of the witness on the next several

 2     questions.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

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Page 4535











11  Pages 4535-4537 redacted. Private session.















Page 4538

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15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

20             MR. IVETIC:

21        Q.   Now, after being mobilised, what type of tasks were you given to

22     undertake?

23        A.   Well, in the direction of my village, there were guards there.

24     On the other side down there, there is Zepa, Pripecak, and some other

25     places where people thought the Muslim forces couldn't get there to burn

Page 4539

 1     down the villages, and so we held those guards there.

 2        Q.   Okay.  In the course of performing your guard duty, did you wear

 3     a uniform?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And were other persons in Visegrad being mobilised in that area

 6     around the same time that you had been mobilised?

 7        A.   I think they called up everyone in the space of one or two days.

 8        Q.   And with respect to the command, where was the military command

 9     located in the Visegrad area?

10        A.   It was at Bikavac.

11        Q.   Where specifically in Bikavac?

12        A.   In a hotel called Bikavac.

13        Q.   Okay, and was there also a kitchen where food was prepared for

14     the army, the Territorial Defence, and the police?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And where was that kitchen located?

17        A.   In that restaurant of that hotel.

18        Q.   Now, while you were doing guard duty, did you have occasion to go

19     to the military command's kitchen to eat, or was food provided by other

20     means?

21        A.   First, we got dry food for a certain time, and then they started

22     bringing cooked food to the lines in a vehicle.

23        Q.   You say that at a certain point in time cooked food was being

24     brought to the lines.  From where was this food being brought?

25        A.   I think from the kitchen at Bikavac.

Page 4540

 1        Q.   Do you recall who it was, that is to say, the persons who

 2     delivered the food by vehicle to the lines?

 3        A.   It was brought by Stevan or Steva, I think his name was Vukovic

 4     or Milosavljevic, and Josip.

 5        Q.   And what type of -- and what type of vehicle would these persons

 6     utilise for delivering the food to yourselves and others on guard duty

 7     and to the lines?

 8        A.   Sometimes it was a van, and sometimes it was a TAM truck, a small

 9     one.

10        Q.   And these persons, Stevan or Steva or Josip, were they persons

11     who participated in combat?

12        A.   No, they were at the kitchen at the command, and they only took

13     care of the food for the soldiers and distributed it.

14             MR. IVETIC:  If I can have an exhibit shown to the witness.  I

15     believe it's marked in e-court as P 229.  And if we could zoom in on the

16     photograph on this picture -- on this page.

17        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you to take a look at this photograph and

18     tell me whether, in fact, you can recognise any of the two individuals

19     that are depicted on this photograph.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Could you tell me -- could --

22        A.   This one to my right is Steva or Stevan, and the other one is

23     Josip.

24        Q.   And for the record, when you say that these are Steva or Stevan

25     and Josip, are these the same individuals that you have described for us

Page 4541

 1     previously who worked in the kitchen at the military command?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   Now, can you recognise the vehicle that is depicted in this

 4     photograph?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   What can you tell us about the vehicle in this photograph, sir?

 7        A.   Well, that's the vehicle, and those two men, but not on the side

 8     where I was, on the other side, when they were driving the food up to the

 9     men, they ran into an anti-tank mine, and then they and the vehicle got

10     blown up.

11        Q.   Okay.  Now, you indicated that these men were attached to the

12     kitchen at the military command.  To your knowledge, were either of these

13     two men ever members of the so-called White Eagles?

14        A.   As far as I know, no.

15        Q.   If we could focus for a moment, the gentleman on the left-hand

16     side of the picture.  I forget.  Could you tell us who that is?

17        A.   To my left?

18        Q.   Yes.

19        A.   That's Josip.

20        Q.   And for the record, what kind of hat is Josip wearing in this

21     photograph?

22        A.   It's the sajkaca hat.

23        Q.   And what kind of a hat is a sajkaca?  Who is it usually worn by?

24        A.   Well, you'll see that usually in Serbia, around Uzice, that area

25     down there, and it's worn by Serbs, Serb farmers or peasants as they call

Page 4542

 1     them.

 2        Q.   With respect to Josip, what kind of name is Josip and what

 3     religious affiliation is he?

 4        A.   Well, I never talked about it with him, but judging by his name I

 5     think he was a Croat.

 6        Q.   And are you familiar with his family?  Who was he married to, for

 7     instance?

 8        A.   I know his wife, and he had two daughters.

 9        Q.   What was the name of his wife, and how was she employed?

10        A.   I think she's retired now, and she used to work in the health

11     centre.  She was a nurse, and her name was Vida Stjepanovic.

12        Q.   Do you know what village the wife of this gentleman Josip is

13     from?

14        A.   A village near my village.  Its name was Paocici.

15             MR. IVETIC:  That's all I have for the picture.  That can be

16     taken off the screen now.

17        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, if we could focus on yourself for the time

18     being, during the course of the time that you were mobilised into the

19     Territorial Defence in Visegrad, did you have occasion to participate in

20     any actions in addition to the guard duty that you were performing?

21        A.   On one occasion up there opposite were I was, the place is called

22     Kopito.

23        Q.   Now, with respect to this one occasion in Kopito, do you recall

24     when that was precisely?

25        A.   That was on the 13th of June, 1992.  Yeah, I said 2002 again.  I

Page 4543

 1     apologise.  It was 1992.

 2        Q.   Now, could you detail for us how it was that you came to be

 3     involved in this action in the region of Kopito in Visegrad municipality

 4     beginning the 13th of June, 1992.

 5        A.   A Lada Niva came, and the commander told me to get in the car and

 6     we should go because we needed to go up to Kopito, as the Muslim soldiers

 7     were passing on the Gorazde-Zepa, Zepa-Gorazde road, and they had even

 8     set fire to some houses up there, and we had to set up an ambush.

 9        Q.   Now, when you say a Lada Niva came, where were you when the

10     Lada Niva came for you?

11        A.   I was at the position down there, at Rujiste.

12        Q.   And when you say you were told to get in the car, was anyone else

13     in the car with you?

14        A.   Yes, two others as well.  That's what the komandir told us, You,

15     you, and you go, but he didn't tell us where we were going.  He said, Get

16     in the car and go to the command.

17        Q.   And then what happened?  Where did the car take you?

18        A.   They took us to Bikavac, in front of the command.

19        Q.   What approximate time of day was this?

20        A.   In the morning at around 9 or 10 a.m.

21        Q.   Now, what did you see when you arrived at the command at the

22     Hotel Bikavac?

23        A.   I saw more soldiers and policemen gathering there.

24        Q.   Were there any persons among the soldiers and policemen that were

25     gathering there whom you recognised?

Page 4544

 1        A.   I recognised Milan, whom I saw for the first time after that

 2     conflict, there in front of the command I saw him.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Line 7 of page 73, I believe the witness

 4     said "before that conflict."

 5        Q.   Now, when you say Milan, to which Milan are you referring to, if

 6     you could please be specific?

 7        A.   Milan Lukic.  I do apologise.

 8        Q.   And just so that we're abundantly clear, which -- which of the

 9     Milan Lukices from Rujiste did you see on that day?

10        A.   The one we see here now with us.

11             MR. IVETIC:  I'm sorry.  Is there a problem?  Okay, I apologise.

12        Q.   First of all, before we get to the specifics of this encounter

13     and the Milan Lukic that we see here before us today, what can you tell

14     us about the other Milan Lukic from Rujiste?

15        A.   That was an elderly man who was killed I think in 1993, down

16     there below his village.  He was an older man, 60 or so.

17             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise, Your Honours.  I'm having to deal with

18     an inquiry from VWS at the moment.

19        Q.   Sir, now, if we could focus back on the -- on your arrival before

20     the command on the 13th of June, 1992, wherein you saw Milan Lukic and

21     you said it was the first time you'd seen him.  Were you surprised to see

22     Milan Lukic at that time there?

23        A.   Yes, I was, because I hadn't seen him since the conflicts began,

24     and I hadn't seen him for some time before that either.

25        Q.   And when you saw Mr. Milan Lukic there in front of the military

Page 4545

 1     command on the 13th of June, 1992, with whom was he in the company of?

 2        A.   He was with a group of men who were wearing camouflage uniforms,

 3     and it said "milicija" on their left shoulder.

 4        Q.   And just for purposes of clarification for those of us that don't

 5     speak B/C/S or Serbian, the term "milicija" is reflected in the

 6     transcript.  At that time, what organisation was called the "milicija"?

 7        A.   Well, today it's called the police.  I don't know what else I

 8     could say.  It's the police.

 9        Q.   Thank you, sir.

10             Now, could you tell us, then, what happened.  Did all of you

11     remain there, or were you told to go elsewhere?  What happened after you

12     arrived at the command and saw Milan Lukic with other persons in the

13     uniform of policemen?

14        A.   We arrived there, we said hello, and then we waited for further

15     orders.  We were given orders to get in the cars there and go to Kopito.

16        Q.   Now, you had indicated earlier that when you arrived you saw more

17     soldiers and policemen gathering there.  Approximately how many of these

18     soldiers and policemen received this order to get into the cars and go to

19     Kopito?

20        A.   Well, perhaps about 20 men.

21        Q.   And what happened then?  Did you actually have occasion to set

22     out for Kopito?

23        A.   Yes, we did.  We got into the vehicles and arrived up there at

24     Kopito where we were met by local people.  Among them was

25     Vlatko Tripkovic.  I didn't know him, but he introduced himself.  He said

Page 4546

 1     he was Vlatko Tripkovic, the commander of that area.

 2        Q.   Who was it that gave you instructions once you arrived at Kopito

 3     as to what -- as to where you should go and what you should do?

 4        A.   There was a lad there with Vlatko who introduced himself as

 5     Novica Savic, and he told us where those men were passing by and where we

 6     should -- where we should take up our positions.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now, if we could back up just for a second.  Could you

 8     tell us what happened to Milan Lukic.  You had seen him at the command.

 9     Did you see him again?

10        A.   Yes, yes.  He was with us, with me, in that same group of men.

11        Q.   What about when you arrived at Kopito?  Where was Milan Lukic at

12     that time?

13        A.   He was with me.  We socialised a bit because we knew each other,

14     so we decided to stick together.

15        Q.   Now, after introducing themselves and telling you where you

16     should take up your positions, what did the persons, Tripkovic and Savic,

17     what did they then do?

18        A.   Tripkovic said he had to go to Visegrad to the command for a

19     briefing.  Perica Markovic took over the command, so he was there to

20     supervise us, deploy us, and give us further instructions.

21        Q.   Did, in fact, Tripkovic set out for Visegrad?

22        A.   I didn't know that at the time, but the next day I learned he had

23     set out.  He was killed somewhere along the way.

24        Q.   Just waiting for the transcript and the translation to catch up

25     with us.  We'll get to the next day in a moment.  I want to focus first

Page 4547

 1     on that first day when you and the others arrived at Kopito, and first of

 2     all, could you describe for us what kind of terrain -- what kind of

 3     terrain is it where Kopito is situated?

 4        A.   The road from Visegrad to Rogatica is an asphalt road through the

 5     wooded area, and then there is this road that cuts across it that people

 6     from Gorazde take to get to Zepa.  It's all woodlands, all around.  I'm

 7     not sure if you'll understand.  We call it a goat path.  It's some sort

 8     of a path, so it's surrounded by a forest with all sorts of trees, small

 9     trees and some fir trees as well.

10        Q.   Again, I'm waiting for the transcript and translation to catch up

11     with us, sir.  Now, when you indicated earlier that you were told to take

12     up positions, what type of positions were you told to take up?  Where in

13     fact did you -- were the positions?

14        A.   They said we should camouflage our presence along the road that

15     was likely to be taken by the Muslim army.

16        Q.   Did you establish any -- strike that.  Were there any houses or

17     structures in that area?

18        A.   Yes, five or six houses.

19        Q.   At the time that you arrived at Kopito and received your

20     instructions, were you told approximately how long your engagement on

21     that region -- or at that location would last?

22        A.   When we first set out, they gave us some dry rations and told us

23     that we might stay there for four or five days.

24        Q.   Okay.  And where was it that you were to spend the night, et

25     cetera, at Kopito?

Page 4548

 1        A.   There were some houses there as I said in my previous answer.

 2        Q.   Did you in fact stay into the next day, the 14th of June, 1992?

 3        A.   Yes.  We still -- we stayed until the morning of the 15th.

 4        Q.   Okay.  I appreciate that.  I'd like to go back and focus on the

 5     14th of June, 1992, for the time being.  Did anything happen on the 14th

 6     of June, 1992, where you were situated in the Kopito region?

 7        A.   A car arrived along the Rogatica Visegrad road driving in the

 8     direction of Visegrad.  It had police plates, and Djeric was in it with

 9     another lad.

10        Q.   Now, if we could back up, there's several things there I'd like

11     to focus on.  First of all, you said Djeric was in this vehicle.  Which

12     Djeric are we talking about, or could you give us his name?

13        A.   Goran Djeric.

14        Q.   And from whence did this car come from?  What direction?

15        A.   From Rogatica.

16        Q.   And was there any military installment or command in Rogatica?

17        A.   Yes.  The Rogatica Brigade was there.

18        Q.   And with respect to the road that you've described and the

19     terrain that you've described, where is Kopito in relation to Rogatica

20     and Visegrad?

21        A.   It's right between the two, but that's the only road connecting

22     Rogatica and Visegrad.

23        Q.   Okay, now.  So Djeric arrived at your positions in Kopito coming

24     from Rogatica in the Golf that had the police license -- registrations.

25     What happened then?  Did you have occasion to speak with him?  And when I

Page 4549

 1     say "him," I mean Djeric, Goran Djeric.

 2        A.   Well, it was by coincidence because we knew each other that I

 3     walked up to him and Milan Lukic and some other people too.  Milan Lukic

 4     and I approached him, and he told us that Vlatko Tripkovic had been

 5     killed near a place called Tabla, somewhere along the road.

 6        Q.   And how had Mr. Djeric obtained that information?

 7        A.   Well, we had no communications equipment because all if that was

 8     in Tripkovic's car.  So the Visegrad and the Rogatica Brigades got in

 9     touch because this is something that you can see from Visegrad.  You

10     could see a car burning, but one didn't know who it was or what had

11     happened, so the Rogatica Brigade and the Visegrad Brigade got in touch.

12     And Kusic from Rogatica dispatched Goran Djeric to convey the news to us

13     to the effect that the next stage in operation should be launched from up

14     there because Tripkovic had been killed.  And from Visegrad those other

15     guys should get on their way in order to clear the road to make sure the

16     road was open and usable.

17        Q.   Okay.  And to whom was Mr. Djeric to deliver this message?

18        A.   He asked who the commander was, who was in charge.  Lukic and I

19     went to the house where Perica Markovic was staying.  We walked with him

20     all the way to Perica Markovic, and then he conveyed the news to Perica

21     Markovic.

22        Q.   Now, sir, you've mentioned that Mr. Tripkovic was in his car and

23     perished at the location near a place called Tabla.  Could you in

24     reference to -- in reference to Rogatica, Kopito, and Visegrad, could you

25     tell us where Tabla is located?

Page 4550

 1        A.   That's closer to Visegrad, about halfway between Kopito and

 2     Visegrad.  It may be a little closer to Visegrad than it is to Kopito.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And do you recall what approximate time of day it was that

 4     Mr. Goran Djeric arrived from Rogatica with this information?

 5        A.   Perhaps about 10.00 a.m.

 6        Q.   Now, did Mr. Djeric leave after giving his information and his

 7     instructions to Perica Markovic?  Did he leave Kopito?

 8        A.   He stayed with us.  He stayed with us that night, and when we set

 9     out for Visegrad and the operation had been launched already, he drove

10     back to Rogatica.

11        Q.   Could you tell us, then, when it was that the operation was

12     launched in terms of the day and the time of day?

13        A.   We left on the morning of the 15th at about 9.00, 9.30, perhaps.

14     That would be the time.

15        Q.   Could you describe for us how it was that you set out in the

16     course of undertaking this operation.  How did you -- how did you and the

17     other soldiers and policemen set out along the road towards Visegrad?

18        A.   We received orders to go to Visegrad because the people in

19     Visegrad had left already in a bid to clear the road, so we walked from

20     up there, walking more along the road than on the actual road itself, so

21     by the side of the road, and then on to Visegrad.

22        Q.   Did you have occasion to actually meet up with the other Serb

23     forces coming from the direction of Visegrad?

24        A.   Yes.  It was about noon that same day, more or less.

25        Q.   Did you have occasion to eye-witness the site where Mr. Tripkovic

Page 4551

 1     and his car had met their demise?

 2        A.   Yes.  That was where we met up.  Those other people were there

 3     already.  His body was pulled out if there was anything left of his body

 4     because the car had burned down already.  We met up there, and all I saw

 5     was the wreck, the car's wreck.

 6        Q.   Now, did you have occasion to learn at any point in time whether

 7     Mr. -- Commander Tripkovic had perished alone or whether anyone else had

 8     perished with him on that occasion?

 9        A.   There were another two there:  Novica Savic, and I can't remember

10     the third man's name.

11        Q.   Okay.  And during the time period that you were up in Kopito with

12     Milan Lukic, do you recall the names of any other individuals that you

13     spent a considerable portion of time during the 13th, the 14th, and the

14     morning of the 15th in that region?

15        A.   People from the area or people who were actually with us?

16        Q.   Anyone that you can actually remember being with you that you

17     could -- that you could know to name.

18        A.   Well, perhaps I could give you five, six, seven, or eight names:

19     Milan Josipovic, Vidoje Andric, Zjelko Tasic, Gogic, Timotije Joksimovic.

20        Q.   Fair enough.  We'll get back, I think, to that later.  After you

21     met up with the forces near the -- the other forces coming from the

22     direction of Visegrad near the Tabla location where Commander Tripkovic

23     and the others had perished, what happened then?  Where did you and the

24     other police and soldiers from -- who had come from Kopito, where did you

25     go and by what means?

Page 4552

 1        A.   We lingered there for a while, and then our vehicles caught up,

 2     the ones who had been driving behind us.  We got into those vehicles and

 3     drove back to the command at Bikavac.

 4        Q.   And upon -- and upon your return to the command in Bikavac, what

 5     else -- strike that.  Where else did you go?  What else did you do?  What

 6     were you told to do at that point in time?

 7        A.   Well, nothing, really.  We drove back in that Lada Niva that we

 8     had arrived in.  They went back to pick us up and then drove us back to

 9     the line.

10        Q.   Okay.  Did you ever have occasion after that date and after that

11     action to participate in any other military actions with Milan Lukic?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Okay.  Now, do you recall what time of day it was approximately

14     when you returned to Visegrad, that is, specifically towards the

15     Hotel Bikavac command?

16        A.   Perhaps between 1 and 2.00 p.m.

17                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

18        Q.   Have you had occasion to -- strike that.  When did you -- when

19     did you leave Bosnia to return to your current home?  What year?

20        A.   I'm not sure I understand.  When did I leave Bosnia?  You mean to

21     work in Belgrade or what?

22        Q.   No.  After the war, when did you return to Belgrade?

23        A.   1976 -- I'm sorry, 1996.

24        Q.   And after that, did you have occasion to return to Bosnia and to

25     Visegrad municipality?

Page 4553

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And did you have occasion ever to cross the road there at

 3     Kopito -- or excuse me, pardon, at the Tabla location to see if there are

 4     any memorials or monuments in place there?

 5        A.   No, I never drove past.  That's on the other side of the

 6     Drina River, and when I travel from Belgrade to Visegrad, I don't pass

 7     the Drina River.  I just drive down the right bank of the river whenever

 8     I go to visit my mother.

 9        Q.   Thank you --

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, I take it that you will be

11     concluding?

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.  That was my last question, Your Honour, so I

13     am actually finished the witness.

14             Thank you, sir, for your time.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  All right.  We'll have the cross-examination

17     tomorrow.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of

20                           January, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.