Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4649

 1                           Tuesday, 3 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.51 a.m.

 5             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Good morning.  Judge Robinson is unable

 6     to sit today.  He's withheld by other duties, so Judge David and I will

 7     set under the rule.

 8             I understand that there are some submissions to be made by the

 9     parties.  Mr. Groome, you want to go first.

10             MR. GROOME:  Good morning, Your Honours.

11             The first witness today was supposed to be MLD17 and there was a

12     matter that I wanted to bring up that relates to both MLD17 and MLD16.

13     The Prosecution wants to inform the Chamber of some matters that affects

14     both of these witnesses.  Both of these witnesses are alibi witnesses who

15     are not included in the Defence Rule 67 filings, the alibi filings.

16             Last Wednesday, Judge Robinson ordered the Defence to provide the

17     addresses, dates of birth, and father's name for all their witnesses by

18     Friday last week, and the Prosecution has yet to receive this information

19     from the Defence.

20             Additionally, the Prosecution sent to the Defence on the 21st of

21     January, 2009, a letter requesting an opportunity to interview these two

22     witnesses, and I reminded the Milan Lukic Defence last week in open court

23     about this request and the Prosecution never received a response.

24             This failure to respond to a request from the Prosecution as well

25     as disregard of an order of the Chamber causes several significant

Page 4650

 1     problems, in addition to the obvious problem that this failure prevents

 2     the Prosecution from conducting even the most rudimentary investigation

 3     of who these witnesses are.  The problem was compounded in the case of

 4     MLD17 because this witness, once again a late-noticed alibi witness who

 5     was added in November to the accused's witness list, the terse summary of

 6     her statement indicates that she will say she observed Milan Lukic from a

 7     window in her home on the day he was allegedly in Belgrade.

 8             Not having her address made it impossible to even identify a map

 9     for her to indicate where her building is and where she says she saw

10     Milan Lukic.  This is especially troubling because we also know that this

11     information is known to the Defence because Victim Witness Services

12     requires this information when scheduling witnesses.

13             I can only conclude that this disregard of the Chamber's order of

14     a few days ago is calculated to obstruct the work of the Prosecution and

15     prevent it from testing the evidence these witnesses will provide today.

16     We will ask the witness under oath to provide this information, although

17     I -- while we've been waiting here, I asked Mr. Alarid to provide this

18     information and he has provided the address now of MLD17, but it's still

19     quite late for us to be able to do anything meaningful with this.

20             So I anticipate that I will be asking the -- or making an

21     application to recall these witnesses at a later time after we've had

22     some reasonable opportunity to do some investigation into their accounts.

23             I would ask the Chamber at this stage to inquire from the Defence

24     as to the reason for its failure to abide by the Chamber's order on such

25     an important issue, ask the Chamber to then consider an appropriate

Page 4651

 1     remedy, and to prevent prejudice to the Prosecution's case and further to

 2     direct the Defence to fully comply with last week's order by the end of

 3     today.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  I'm sorry.  You were also mentioning

 6     MLD16.  When is MLD16 scheduled to testify?

 7             MR. GROOME:  She's the second witness on the schedule for this

 8     morning, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Oh, I see.  I'm sorry.  Okay.  Thank

10     you.

11             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour, good morning.

12             In response to -- I wouldn't -- in response to the Prosecution's

13     questions to the Court, Your Honour, I wouldn't say that it's a direct

14     issue of disregard.  Basically, Your Honour, we scheduled a mission to

15     the region.  Mr. Ivetic and I spent two days in Bosnia and we received

16     the clarification from Marie, although I would inform the Court and I did

17     inform Mr. Groome that Ms. Marie O'Leary is no longer with our team.  She

18     had prior obligations to the Djordjevic case, and when it came to trial,

19     we had to obviously make concessions.  We should hopefully have a new

20     case manager by the end of -- if not next week, given the assignment

21     requirements and the background checks and conflicts checks, that the

22     Registry will be needing to do that.

23             However, Marie did forward the reminder request from the

24     Prosecution to my Blackberry in Bosnia, and we responded as best we

25     could, typing it back, what we had.  And basically what I've just given

Page 4652

 1     Mr. Groome was what -- basically a reprint and put into the ICTY because

 2     apparently -- and we only did it as to the date of birth and father's

 3     name, and that's what -- we had actually traveled to the region to meet

 4     with these and get as much information as we could for the Prosecution.

 5             Of course, we're still doing the due diligence that is, I think,

 6     required given the allegations and the problems with the case from prior.

 7     You know, again, I stress that we need to provide quality information to

 8     the Court given the nature of the Defence case, so that was the reasons

 9     why there was the delay, Your Honours.

10             We returned from Bosnia on Sunday and in fact didn't even open

11     Mr. Groome's request until this morning, so that's -- we both picked up a

12     flu in Bosnia, and I got through my fever over the weekend and Dan is in

13     his sort of flu stage right now.

14             So I apologise to Mr. Groome, but it was not an intentional

15     issue, and we're just trying to get as much information as we can

16     ourselves.  Right now we're a two-man team, Your Honour, and that's --

17     that's where we're at.  Hopefully we'll have a little bit more support

18     staff by the end of the week.

19             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Thank you, Mr. Alarid.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

21             MR. ALARID:  Microphone, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  I'm sorry.  I can only urge you to try

23     in the future to comply with your obligations under the rules.

24             For the witnesses of today, I understand the damage has been

25     done, so we will see at the end of cross-examination whether there is a

Page 4653

 1     need for the Prosecution to call these witnesses back.  I don't think

 2     there's anything else we can do under the present circumstances.

 3             MR. ALARID:  And, Your Honour, we do not object to Mr. Groome's

 4     request.  Should the need be made, we would, of course, not make any

 5     objection to Mr. Groome's request.

 6             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Thank you, Mr. Alarid.

 7             Mr. Groome.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I just note that

 9     Mr. Alarid, in an e-mail just a few minutes ago, said that we have

10     MLD17's date of birth.  We do not have it.  If he believes he has given

11     it to us, I'd ask him to give it to us again.  But we can find no record

12     of -- we have been given MLD17's date of birth but not MLD16's.

13             MR. ALARID:  We'll do it.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Okay.  So are we now ready to proceed to

15     the next witness?

16             Mr. Cepic.

17             MR. CEPIC:  My apologies.  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

18     morning, Your Honour.

19             I would like to raise an issue related to Defence exhibits from

20     our defence list, 24 and 25, which is the transcript of interview with

21     our Defence witness, Mr. Veroljub Zivkovic, conducted by OTP in June of

22     2008.

23             Since 3rd of November, we have been repeatedly requesting

24     corrections on that transcript from the OTP.  During November, we

25     received a revised, due to our opinion partially revised, version of that

Page 4654

 1     transcript, but up to now, after three months, we still haven't gotten

 2     fully corrected versions.  As I said, we repeatedly requested.

 3             In the meantime we contacted CLSS related to that issue, and they

 4     informed us that they cannot do anything without the Trial Chamber's

 5     order.  So they need an order to make any correction if we think that

 6     they're still existing, and in that interest, firstly, we would like to

 7     replace unrevised version of that transcript in the system, which are

 8     right now under the numbers 2D05-001 and 2D05-0109, with partially

 9     revised transcripts which are under the numbers 2D06-0027 and 2D06-0122.

10     We kindly ask this Honorable Trial Chamber to admit those transcripts as

11     marked for identification and to issue an order related to corrections of

12     those transcripts.

13             I spoke to Mr. Groome last Tuesday, and he told me that he will

14     not object about it.  This is contrary.  Then I received information from

15     Mr. Cole, so that is our position now.

16             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Thank you, Mr. Cepic.  Would you wish to

17     have this new version to be admitted instead of the old version?

18             MR. CEPIC:  To be on our list instead of the old version and to

19     request -- to request it be marked for identification, and kindly ask

20     order from the Trial Chamber related to CLSS for additional corrections

21     to that transcript.  And we are ready to provide CLSS with a copy of the

22     tape of that interview and with those transcripts.

23             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Okay.

24             Mr. Groome.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have no objection to the Court asking

Page 4655

 1     CLSS to review the translations.

 2             Just to clarify, Mr. Cepic can correct me if I'm wrong, this

 3     relates to -- in the cross-examination of this witness, I played about a

 4     five-second portion of the audiotape of the interview, which was then

 5     translated contemporaneously by the translators or the interpreters in

 6     the booth.  Mr. Cepic subsequently would like to introduce the entire

 7     transcript, and I advised Mr. Cepic that I would not be introducing it,

 8     but I would not oppose any motion by Mr. Cepic if he wanted to make an

 9     application to admit those exhibits.  So that's what I've agreed to, and

10     hopefully that clarifies some of the details around this matter.

11             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Mr. Cepic.

12             MR. CEPIC:  I'll be completely -- I'll tell completely our

13     position.  We even intended to use that transcript in examination of that

14     witness, but we couldn't because there were a lot of mistakes.  There are

15     still a lot of mistakes in that transcript.  OTP used just couple

16     seconds, as Mr. Groome said, and even in that small portion of

17     transcript, there were a lot of mistakes.

18             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Okay.

19             MR. CEPIC:  So our position is that in the interests of justice,

20     it's better to have the whole transcript of interview than just a portion

21     or a couple seconds.

22             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Cepic.  So then we

23     will have the whole portion of the transcript corrected, and we will

24     accept it, marked for identification.

25             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just for the transcript,

Page 4656

 1     those exhibits are on our 65 ter list under the numbers 24 and 25.

 2             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Thank you very much.

 3             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  It will be marked for identification.

 5             So are we ready to call the next witness now?  Okay.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  The witness should be MLD15.

 7             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  We have to go into private session.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  The witness should MLD15, who's returning, I

 9     believe, for the cross-examination of the Office of the Prosecutor.

10                           [Private session]

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Page 4657











11  Pages 4657-4658 redacted. Private session.















Page 4659

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24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

Page 4660

 1             MR. COLE:

 2        Q.   Now, MLD16 is a long-time friend of yours; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.  From our time in secondary school, we had some joint

 4     friends.

 5        Q.   Now, since you testified in this court on the 14th of January

 6     this year, some three weeks ago, how many times have you spoken to MLD16

 7     either in person or on the phone?

 8        A.   From what time?  Since when?

 9        Q.   Since you testified here in this court on the 14th of January

10     this year, some three weeks ago, how many times have you spoken to MLD16

11     either in person or on the phone?

12        A.   Well, since we live in the same town, we ran into each other in

13     the street on one occasion, and she phoned me once.

14        Q.   And what did you discuss about this case when you met her on

15     those occasions?

16        A.   Well, she mostly talked about her daughters.  She takes them to

17     tennis lessons and things like that.

18        Q.   Did you discuss this trial when you were talking to her in the

19     last three weeks?

20        A.   Well, I told her that I was there, and nothing more specific than

21     that.

22        Q.   Where did you tell her you were?

23        A.   I don't understand your question.

24        Q.   Well, the answer relayed to the Court was, "I told her that I was

25     there ..." and now I'm asking you where "there" is.

Page 4661

 1        A.   In Holland, here.

 2        Q.   You mean here at the Tribunal, in this courtroom?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   I'm now going to ask you about Milan Lukic, and do I have this

 5     correct:  You believe Milan Lukic to be a wonderful person.  You believe

 6     Milan Lukic to be a wonderful person; is that correct?

 7        A.   Well, on the basis of what I know of Milan Lukic, that is what I

 8     think, yes.

 9        Q.   Now, are you related by family or marriage to Milan Lukic or

10     Sredoje Lukic or their wives; and if the answer's yes, please don't say

11     what the relationship is at this point.

12        A.   No, I'm not related to him.

13             MR. COLE:  If we could go into private session briefly, please,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Private.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

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Page 4662

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 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 4             MR. COLE:

 5        Q.   Now, the first time you met Milan Lukic was at the end of 1990,

 6     and when was the last time you saw him in person?

 7        A.   I think it was on the 9th of June, 1992.

 8        Q.   So if that's right, as at June 1992 you'd known Milan Lukic for

 9     about 18 months.

10        A.   More or less, yes.

11        Q.   So in that 18-month period or so, how many times did you

12     physically meet with Milan Lukic in Belgrade?

13        A.   I don't know exactly, but quite a few times, a number of times.

14        Q.   Would you say you met him frequently during that period?

15        A.   For the most part, whenever he was in Belgrade, yes.

16        Q.   Well, can you give us some idea?  Is it 5, 10, 50 times?  How

17     many?

18        A.   Ten times.

19        Q.   How many apartments were you aware that Milan had at that time in

20     Belgrade?

21        A.   I couldn't really tell you.  I don't know how many apartments he

22     had.  I don't know whether he had an apartment at all, whether it

23     belonged to him, actually.

24        Q.   Did you ever go to Milan's apartment in Belgrade in 1992?

25        A.   Well, I went to an apartment, but I don't know whether it was

Page 4663

 1     Milan's apartment.

 2        Q.   What was the address that you went to?

 3        A.   I don't know the name of the street and the house number, but it

 4     was at Bezanijska Kosa.

 5        Q.   What was Milan Lukic's occupation in June 1992?

 6        A.   I couldn't tell you.  I don't know what his occupation was at

 7     that time.  I knew that he was an athlete, and I know that we discussed

 8     that topic.

 9        Q.   You don't know what his occupation was in June of 1992; is that

10     correct?

11        A.   I don't know exactly, but ...

12        Q.   Did you want to conclude that answer?

13        A.   Well, our acquaintance was based on discussions about sports,

14     having fun, and things like that.

15        Q.   So you saw him ten times and you don't know what his occupation

16     was.  Is that it?

17        A.   I don't know what it was.

18        Q.   Can you tell us when and where Milan Lukic met MLD16?

19        A.   I don't recall the first time, but I know that we were always

20     together, hanging out in the same crowd, and it was probably during one

21     of those ten times when we were together.

22        Q.   So it's your evidence you can't remember the specific occasion

23     when Milan Lukic and MLD16 met for the first time?

24        A.   Well, no.  I can't remember when the first time was.

25        Q.   Are you related to MLD16?

Page 4664

 1        A.   No, I'm not.

 2        Q.   How many times have you met Milan's sister, Draginja, who lives

 3     in Belgrade?

 4        A.   Perhaps two or three times in my entire life.

 5        Q.   When was the last time you saw or spoke with her?

 6        A.   When I gave the statement to the lawyers.

 7        Q.   Is that last year, 2008, you're talking about?

 8        A.   Yes, when I gave the statement to the Defence lawyers.

 9        Q.   So would it be fair to say that Draginja has been your contact

10     person about your evidence for Milan Lukic?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Does she live in the Bezanijska Kosa district of Belgrade, the

13     district that you mentioned previously?

14        A.   I don't know.  I don't know where she lives.  Possible, yes.

15        Q.   Does her husband work for the MUP in Serbia?

16        A.   I don't know.

17        Q.   Have you spoken with Milan Lukic while he's been in the Detention

18     Centre here in The Hague?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   How many times?

21        A.   Two or three times.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

23     repeat his answer.

24             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Can you please repeat your answer,

25     Witness.

Page 4665

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  He contacted me using e-mail.

 2             MR. COLE:

 3        Q.   So are you saying you've been in e-mail correspondence with Milan

 4     Lukic while he's been in custody?

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, that's not what came on the B/C/S

 6     channel.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can hardly hear the

 8     witness.

 9             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Can you speak in the microphone, please,

10     sir, because the interpreters have difficulties hearing you.

11             MR. COLE:

12        Q.   So, Witness, are you saying that you've been in e-mail

13     correspondence with Milan Lukic while he's been in custody?

14        A.   No, no e-mails.

15        Q.   The transcript shows that you said that Milan Lukic contacted you

16     using e-mail.  What do you say about that?

17        A.   No.  We spoke on the phone.  No e-mails were exchanged.

18        Q.   When was the last time you spoke on the phone with Milan Lukic?

19        A.   I think that was last year prior to the giving of my statement to

20     the lawyers.

21        Q.   I want to ask you about the time of day that you received the

22     phone call from Milan Lukic in June of 1992, and the question is:  At

23     what time of the day did Milan Lukic contact you by phone on the 7th of

24     June, as you say, at your apartment in Belgrade?  Morning, afternoon?

25     When was it?

Page 4666

 1        A.   It was around mid-day.

 2        Q.   And was this at the same apartment you'd grown up in?

 3        A.   It was.

 4             MR. COLE:  If we could go into private session briefly, please.

 5             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Private.

 6                           [Private session]

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22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

24             MR. COLE:

25        Q.   Now, this Mijet restaurant, is this where you say that you saw

Page 4667

 1     Milan Lukic two days after the surprise party?

 2        A.   Yes, two days after the engagement party that I'd prepared.

 3        Q.   So what day of the week was this initial phone call from Milan to

 4     you that we're talking about?

 5        A.   I do not understand.

 6        Q.   Was it Monday, Tuesday, Saturday, Sunday?  What day was it?

 7        A.   I cannot recall the day.  I remember the date because of the

 8     engagement.  It was the 7th of --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter thinks she heard "July."

10             MR. COLE:

11        Q.   Could you repeat the date, please.

12        A.   Are you referring to the billiard room?  We -- I remember,

13     actually, the date because it was the engagement party.  That was the 7th

14     of June, and we met at the billiards room on the 9th of June.

15             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Mr. Cole -- Mr. Cole, I'm sorry to

16     interrupt you.  Why is this ...

17                           [Trial Chamber and usher confer]

18             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Cole.  I was going to ask

19     you how much time you still need, because we trying to plan the hearing

20     as the videolink witness is lined up.  If I give you until 11.00, would

21     that be sufficient?

22             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, I have necessarily because of the nature

23     of this cross-examination some questions.  I can reduce them, but can I

24     ask that perhaps 11.15, bearing in mind of nature of this witness, and

25     I'll tailor it to finish then or before then if at all possible.

Page 4668

 1             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Make it 11.10, and then we'll have the

 2     break, and then we'll have the next witness after the break.

 3             MR. COLE:  Yes, very well, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Yes.  Witness, who was at home with you when you received the

 5     call from Milan Lukic?

 6        A.   I was there with my girlfriend of the time, actually, the mother

 7     of my son.

 8             MR. COLE:  Yes, if we could go to private session, please.

 9             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Private.

10                           [Private session]

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Page 4669

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12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

14             MR. COLE:

15        Q.   Now, when you received this phone call from Milan Lukic at about

16     noon on the 7th of June, 1992, what was the purpose of his call?

17        A.   Just a regular call.  It was customary as we were wont to do

18     whenever he was in Belgrade.  So I took the opportunity to invite him to

19     the party that I was throwing.

20        Q.   And what was the purpose of the party you were throwing?

21   (redacted)

22             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, we're in open session, so I would ask

23     for page 21, line 8, to be redacted accordingly.

24             MR. COLE:

25        Q.   Now, had Milan Lukic met your girlfriend before the time of the

Page 4670

 1     phone call?

 2        A.   Yes, he had, in late 1990 already in Zurich, and from that time

 3     it is also possible that he saw her a couple of times.

 4        Q.   During the phone call, did you tell Milan the other persons that

 5     would be at the surprise party?

 6        A.   No.  It was a surprise party.  I didn't.  This was a place of our

 7     usual get-togethers, of us, the young people from Zemun.  We met there

 8     almost daily.

 9        Q.   But this was a surprise party for your girlfriend, wasn't it?

10     You had invited the other persons --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   So how long before the surprise party had you contacted the

13     others to invite them along?  Was it a week before, two weeks?  How long?

14        A.   This was a place where we -- actually, our hang-out, where we

15     were every evening, so that there was no need for me to invite anyone

16     specifically.  All my friends would be there every evening, regularly.

17        Q.   So didn't you have to make a reservation for a table so that you

18     could make sure you had the facility for the surprise engagement?

19        A.   There was no need because we were regulars there.  There was

20     always a table reserved for us, practically, there.

21        Q.   So how do we spell the name of the restaurant?

22        A.   M-a-c-a.

23        Q.   And was one of the persons that you invited to take part in this

24     surprise party your good friend, MLD16?

25        A.   Yes, and she was also a good friend of my, let me say, wife's.

Page 4671

 1        Q.   So who were the persons present at this table who were to take

 2     part in this surprise engagement party, besides yourself and MLD16?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  This information was in closed session during the

 6     direct examination.  I would ask that we go into private session as well

 7     for this.

 8             MR. COLE:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Private.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4672











11  Page 4672 redacted. Private session.















Page 4673

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

10             MR. COLE:

11        Q.   Is it your evidence that at the point that Milan Lukic arrived at

12     the restaurant you were unaware of any bad feelings or friction between

13     him and MLD16?

14        A.   Well, yes, I was aware because Milan was always teasing her

15     because of the high heels that she wore.

16        Q.   Now, your testimony on the last occasion when you were here is

17     that you had to take MLD16 home because of some confrontation or some

18     problem with Milan Lukic at the restaurant; is that right?

19        A.   There were no direct problems of any kind.  It's just that she

20     got up and went away because he was joking at her expense.

21        Q.   So how long had they both been together in the restaurant before

22     you took her home?

23        A.   I don't know, a minute, two, three, or five.  Actually, the

24     moment he appeared, she got up because she knew that he would probably be

25     cracking jokes at her.

Page 4674

 1        Q.   At that point had you given your girlfriend the engagement ring

 2     and proposed marriage to her, at the time that MLD16 got up to go?

 3        A.   Yes, I had.

 4        Q.   So why did you take MLD16 home and not someone else?

 5        A.   We were good friends, and I just thought that it was the right

 6     thing to do.  I felt a need to do that because she had sat at my table,

 7     and I think that it was moral to do so.

 8        Q.   This was the occasion where you had proposed marriage to your

 9     girlfriend and given her a ring.  Isn't it a bit odd that you're leaving,

10     taking somebody else home?  Couldn't somebody else have taken her home?

11     Couldn't she have got a taxi?  Isn't it all a bit strange?

12        A.   No, it wasn't.  It isn't, because we were great friends and

13     socialised daily.

14        Q.   She didn't have far to go home, did she?

15        A.   Zemun is not a big town.  No, it isn't.

16        Q.   She could have walked or got a taxi easily, couldn't she?

17        A.   Well, it is not that near.  At that time she didn't exactly have

18     taxi fare, so ...

19        Q.   So you took her home and then you returned to the restaurant

20     where everybody was continuing with the celebration.

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   Did you pay for the drinks, the alcohol, that evening because it

23     was a special occasion?

24        A.   Yes, I did.  It probably was.

25        Q.   Can you remember what Milan Lukic was drinking that evening?

Page 4675

 1        A.   Not specifically on that occasion, but I know that as a rule he

 2     would have juice to drink whenever we met.

 3        Q.   He also drank alcohol, though, didn't he?

 4        A.   I never saw him drink alcohol.

 5        Q.   Did Milan Lukic offer to leave the restaurant rather than MLD16

 6     when there was a problem between them?

 7        A.   Probably, but -- knowing him, certainly, but she wanted to go.

 8        Q.   Do you specifically remember him offering to leave rather than

 9     her, or is it something you say you would expect him to do?

10        A.   That's something I would expect him to do.  I'm not sure -- I do

11     not remember with precision.

12        Q.   Now, the names of the other people that were there with you

13     celebrating that evening, did you give all their names to members of the

14     Defence team for Milan Lukic?

15        A.   I don't remember.  This was a place frequented by many young

16     people, and everyone knew everyone else.

17        Q.   Now, listen carefully.  You gave us the names of some people who

18     were with you at the restaurant that evening.  Did you give those names

19     to the Defence lawyers for Milan Lukic; yes or no?

20        A.   I think not.

21        Q.   Did any of the Defence team ask you for the names of the other

22     persons who were with you there that evening at the restaurant?

23        A.   I don't think they did.  I don't know.

24        Q.   Now, that evening at the restaurant, Milan had the opportunity to

25     speak to everybody else at your table.  Would you agree with that?

Page 4676

 1        A.   I really don't know how well he knew the others, but I do know

 2     that he came there at my invitation.  I cannot remember now.

 3        Q.   Did Milan Lukic ask you anything about a city in Serbia called

 4     Novi Pazar that evening at the restaurant?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Did you hear him mention it to any of the other persons at the

 7     restaurant that evening, that is, the city of Novi Pazar?

 8        A.   I don't remember.  I don't think so.

 9        Q.   Now, when was the very first time you knew that you might be a

10     witness for Milan Lukic in this trial?  I mean, who contacted you or whom

11     did you contact?

12        A.   My first contact was Milan's nephew, Milojica, or cousin, I'm not

13     sure; anyway, his uncle's son.

14        Q.   When did you first hear from a member of the Defence team?

15        A.   In November or December, I believe, last year.

16        Q.   Who were the members of the Defence team that you met with?

17        A.   This attorney-at-law whom I know as Danny, I believe.

18        Q.   Is that Mr. Ivetic in the courtroom you're talking about?

19        A.   Yes.  Yes, it is.

20        Q.   And how many meetings have you had with Mr. Ivetic?

21        A.   Two, I think.  Once in Belgrade and also here.

22        Q.   So who else was present besides Mr. Ivetic during the meetings

23     you had?

24        A.   He was in the company of someone else --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter did not hear the rest of

Page 4677

 1     the sentence.

 2             MR. COLE:

 3        Q.   Could you repeat the names of the persons that were present

 4     during the interviews, that is, in addition to Mr. Ivetic.

 5        A.   I don't know the name.  He was with someone else.  There was

 6     someone else escorting him.

 7        Q.   And was Draginja also present?

 8        A.   Yes.  She received us as ...

 9        Q.   I don't understand that answer.

10        A.   Actually, I saw her there.  Yes.

11        Q.   Now, at page 15 of the transcript you said that you gave a

12     statement to the lawyers last year, 2008.  Now, do you remember that

13     occasion?

14        A.   Yes, I do remember.

15        Q.   Did you actually sign a written statement that they took from you

16     on that occasion?

17        A.   I believe I did, but I don't know.

18        Q.   Okay.  Now, where was it that you were when the statement was

19     taken from you?

20        A.   At Bezanijska Kosa in an apartment.

21        Q.   So have I got this right:  Mr. Ivetic was present and Draginja.

22     Who else was present at the time?

23        A.   Another person from here, from the Tribunal at The Hague.

24        Q.   Is that Jelena Rasic or Radomir Rasic, one of those two persons?

25        A.   No.  This was a man who I think oversaw everything.

Page 4678

 1        Q.   Now, how many pages was this statement that you -- that you

 2     signed on that occasion?

 3        A.   I don't know whether there was any statement.

 4             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Excuse me, Mr. Cole.  Are you looking at

 5     the time?  Can you wind up, please?

 6             MR. COLE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Now, MLD15, think about it.  Did you make this written statement

 8     and sign it?  That's something you'd remember, isn't it?

 9        A.   I think that there was no statement.

10        Q.   Well, you think there was no statement.  Is there a possibility

11     that you signed one?  Would you accept that, a possibility you did sign a

12     statement on that occasion?

13             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, asked --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It does exist, yes.

15             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Can you answer the question, Witness.

16     Can you please answer the question, Witness.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you repeat the question,

18     please.

19             MR. COLE:

20        Q.   Yes.  I think you've just agreed that, thinking about it, you did

21     make and sign a written statement.  Is that correct?

22             MR. IVETIC:  That misstates the evidence, Your Honours.  He

23     clearly was answering the question, "Is there a possibility?"

24             MR. COLE:  I would ask that counsel not interrupt and try and

25     instruct the witness as to how to answer.

Page 4679

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I'm entitled to make objections,

 2     especially when counsel is overstepping the bounds of what is permitted

 3     in this court in misstating the evidence on record.  And I object -- I

 4     would object strenuously to the Prosecutor trying to intimidate us from

 5     making our -- from asserting our rights that we have under the Rules of

 6     Procedure and Evidence of this Tribunal.

 7             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Mr. Cole, can you try to state the

 8     evidence more accurately, please, and wind up, because we are running out

 9     of time.

10             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Now, let's just be clear about it, MLD15.  During the questions

12     about whether you made this written statement or not in relation to these

13     proceedings, you didn't say categorically yes or no, but recorded in the

14     transcript at page 30, line 3, it records that you accepted that it does

15     exist, that is, a statement.

16             Now, the question I'm putting to you:  Is the situation now that

17     you accept that you did make and sign a written statement in the presence

18     of Mr. Ivetic and others?

19             MR. ALARID:  Objection; compound question; asked and answered.

20             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Can you answer the question, Witness.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I hear the question, please?

22             MR. COLE:

23        Q.   And I'll repeat it from the transcript:

24             "Now, the question I'm putting to you:  Is the situation now that

25     you accept that you did make and sign a written statement in the presence

Page 4680

 1     of Mr. Ivetic and others?"

 2        A.   No, not a written statement.  I cannot recall that.  I signed

 3     some kind of a paper, but I do not think that that was a written

 4     statement.

 5        Q.   What do you think it was that you signed?

 6        A.   I think Mr. Ivetic is power of attorney to the effect that he can

 7     take a statement from me or something to that effect.

 8             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, I'll just now put the Prosecution case in

 9     a couple of questions to finish off with.

10             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Well, Mr. Cole, we gave you until 10

11     past.  We are five minutes beyond it.  Just one more question and then we

12     have to stop.

13             MR. COLE:  Very well, Your Honour.

14        Q.   MLD15, I'm going to put it to you that your evidence is not

15     worthy of any credit and it has been created after the event specifically

16     to provide Milan Lukic with a false alibi.  What do you say to that?

17        A.   That is not true.

18             MR. COLE:  I have no further questions.  Thank you, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Thank you, Mr. Cole.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Just three or four questions, Your Honour.  I don't

21     know if you want to do it now or after the break.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.

23             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  I would prefer you to do it now because

24     we have to break in order to make the videolink for the witness.

25             Does the tape allow to us go on for a bit?  Okay.

Page 4681

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. MLD15, when we met in Belgrade the first time, do you

 5     recall if the other person in the room with us spoke Serbian or not?

 6        A.   I think that that person did not speak Serbian.

 7        Q.   And do you recall if I represented to you from what country he

 8     came or hailed from?

 9        A.   I don't remember.  I think that he was a foreigner.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall helping me with a witness information

11     sheet required by the Tribunal for your testimony here in The Hague?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   And could that be the document that Mr. Cole keeps asking you

14     about here that you mentioned filling out with me?

15        A.   Yes, it is.  Now I recall.

16        Q.   Thank you, MLD15, for your testimony.  On behalf of the Defence

17     of Milan Lukic, I wish to thank you.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

19     witness.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

21             MLD15, this brings your evidence to an end.  Thank you for coming

22     to The Hague and for giving this evidence.

23             We are now going to adjourn for 20 minutes in order to allow us

24     to make the necessary arrangements for the next witness, who is a

25     videolink witness.

Page 4682

 1             Did you want to say something, Mr. Groome?

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your microphone wasn't on, Your Honour.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 11.17 a.m.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.41 a.m.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Good morning, Witness.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Good morning, Witness.  We shall go into

10     private session because I understood that there is a matter that you wish

11     to raise with this Chamber, so we go into private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 4683











11  Pages 4683-4687 redacted. Private session.















Page 4688

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.55 a.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of

22                           February, 2009, at 8.50 a.m.