Page 4819
1 Thursday, 26 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good afternoon to everybody. In
6 Judge Robinson's absence, Judge David and I will sit under the Rules.
7 I understand that the Registrar wants to make some corrections to
8 the transcript of yesterday.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. With your permission, I
10 would like to make a correction to yesterday's transcript, line -- page
11 4744, line 1 should read Exhibit number 1D110 and on page 4783 line 1
12 exhibit number should read 1D111. Thank you.
13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much.
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
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25 (redacted)
Page 4820
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Alarid, because we were
7 just in the process of considering a hearing on Monday afternoon but that
8 would not fit in with your proofing.
9 MR. ALARID: In terms of a hearing, are we talking about a
10 housekeeping hearing or a --
11 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: No, the witness that you had intended to
12 call.
13 MR. ALARID: No, I would like to get that out of the way. If we
14 could get it out of the way, I would do that.
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Because in the process of seeing whether
16 we can do have swap with another court and to have the hearing on the ...
17 MR. ALARID: I would prefer to get the witness done. I think
18 it's important to keep it going as much as we could.
19 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: How much time do you anticipate for that
20 witness?
21 MR. ALARID: I think we could get him done within the court
22 session. It would be the court session.
23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: The whole afternoon?
24 MR. ALARID: Just with the issues surrounding him in the past
25 with the Court, I can't anticipate and the Prosecution may have, you
Page 4821
1 know, its opportunity.
2 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay, very well but we are in the
3 process of examining that and we will know, I hope, after the break.
4 MR. ALARID: Wonderful. Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Are you ready to bring the next witness
6 now?
7 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I believe it's the cross-examination of
8 MLD22.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Cole.
11 MR. COLE: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
12 WITNESS: WITNESS MLD22 [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Cole:
15 Q. MLD22, my name is Stevan Cole. I will be asking you some
16 questions today on behalf of the Prosecution. My first question to you
17 today is for you -- in fact, Your Honours, if we could go into private
18 session for this first group of questions, please.
19 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private, please.
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session, Your Honours.
21 [Private session]
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 4822
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11 Page 4822 redacted. Private session.
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Page 4823
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
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5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.
14 MR. COLE:
15 Q. I'm going to now about meeting Milan Lukic and can you tell the
16 Court when you first met Milan Lukic?
17 A. I saw him when he came back from Switzerland, a neighbour of mine
18 came and he came, and he was in the reserve police force and that's how I
19 saw him. That's how we met.
20 Q. Is this in the year of 1992 that you first met him?
21 A. Yes, 1992. I can't specify the date or the month, but it was in
22 1992.
23 Q. Now, you say that he was in the reserve police force. How do you
24 know he was a member of the reserve police force?
25 A. Well, I know, I saw him with the Commander Tomic and the other
Page 4824
1 policemen who were living in Visegrad at the time or rather were serving
2 in the Visegrad police.
3 Q. How do you know that he was a member of the reserve police as
4 opposed to the regular police?
5 MR. ALARID: Objection, calls for speculation.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because of my neighbour.
7 MR. COLE:
8 Q. So is it your evidence that your neighbour told you that
9 Milan Lukic was in the reserve police?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When was the first time you saw Milan Lukic in a police uniform?
12 A. In 1992, sir. I can't remember more specifically than that. I
13 had a lot of my own work to look after in the medical unit, so I saw
14 people around not just Milan
15 sure the town was as safe as possible.
16 Q. Can you give us a description of the uniform that you saw
17 Milan Lukic wearing in 1992?
18 A. Well, the uniform was the same as that one worn by all the
19 others, the police commander and the reservists; it was a blue police
20 uniform.
21 Q. What else can you tell us about the uniform?
22 A. Well, there was a beret as well with a three-coloured flag and
23 that was about all there was to it.
24 Q. Did the uniform have the word "police" or a police badge on it
25 somewhere?
Page 4825
1 A. I think it said "milicija".
2 Q. Whereabouts did you see that word on the uniform?
3 A. It was on the shoulder.
4 Q. Now, you indicated the upper arm, do you mean it was on the upper
5 arm or was it on the shoulder?
6 A. Somewhere between the upper arm and the shoulder.
7 Q. And for the record, I note you were indicating with your left
8 hand the area of your upper arm, that is between the elbow and the
9 shoulder; do you confirm that?
10 A. It's something like that, it depended on how a uniform fitted a
11 particular person. Not all people were the certain size, you know,
12 sometimes it could be further up the upper arm as it were and sometimes
13 lower down.
14 Q. Now, yesterday, you spoke of being mobilised and being based at
15 the Bikavac hotel, but you also mentioned certainly in the English
16 transcript, the Bikavac restaurant, so hotel and restaurant. So my
17 question there is: Were you talking about the same place when you were
18 talking about the Bikavac hotel and restaurant?
19 A. Yes, when we say restaurant, we mean kitchen where I come from,
20 and it's all part of this hotel, sir, if you get my meaning.
21 Q. Right. So you were based at the Bikavac hotel from the date of
22 your mobilisation in 1992; is that correct?
23 A. That's right, sir, judge.
24 Q. And can you tell us, please, how far is the Bikavac hotel from
25 the old bridge over the Drina
Page 4826
1 A. I'm not sure how to say this. Do you mean taking the road or do
2 you mean as the crow flies?
3 Q. Well, if you walk from the Bikavac hotel to the old bridge, how
4 long is it going to take you to get there or to the town square?
5 A. Five to ten minutes normal pace.
6 Q. Now, yesterday, when we were in the other courtroom when
7 Mr. Ivetic first asked you about the date of your mobilisation, you
8 firstly said that you were mobilised on the 19th of March, 1992. I'm
9 just going to read back the passage from yesterday to remind you, so
10 please listen carefully. It's page 4813, lines 12 to 20:
11 "Q. Sir, turning to the outbreak of hostilities in Visegrad in
12 1992, were you mobilised at that time?
13 "A. I was mobilised on or about the 19th of March, 1992
14 sent to Bikavac, the restaurant there. The restaurant had sustained a
15 great deal of damage, and I used my technical expertise to get the place
16 up and running again, clear it up to make sure the conditions were again
17 sanitary and safe for everyone. I was responsible for that."
18 Question from Mr. Ivetic: "Could we back up and could you please
19 confirm for us the date when it was that you were mobilised and sent to
20 the Bikavac restaurant?"
21 Now that's -- just a moment, please. Just hold it, and I will
22 ask you something.
23 Now, that's the passage from yesterday. You then corrected
24 yourself as to the date and you said at lines 21 and 22, this is your
25 answer:
Page 4827
1 "The date was 19th of March -- May -- May, I'm sorry, the 19th
2 of May. My apologies, but time seems to have left a mark on my memory."
3 Now, I've just read you the transcript from yesterday. Now, when
4 you corrected yourself from saying the 19th of March to saying the 19th
5 of May, for the date of your mobilisation, I'm going to suggest this was
6 because you heard the accused Milan Lukic say the date from where he was
7 sitting in the courtroom yesterday. That's my suggestion to you. What
8 do you say to that?
9 A. Mr. Judge, it was a knee-jerk reaction, and I got the month
10 wrong. I can document this if I ever get back home alive because I see
11 that planes are falling from the sky all over the place these days. I
12 can send you all the appropriate documents, I have my military notebook.
13 You can see all the dates there, and that will prove my point. I simply
14 got the date wrong, but that wasn't a deliberate error. I can still
15 assert responsibly that it happened on the 19th of May, 1992; reporting
16 at 9.00, I even remember the time of day and I'll never be able to forget
17 that.
18 Q. Just a moment. The point of my question was, MLD22, that you
19 were able to correct yourself yesterday with a little bit of help from
20 the accused who gave you the date. What do you say to that?
21 A. Sir, I took an oath. It was simply something that I got wrong.
22 It was not a deliberate error. Please excuse me for that. I do have the
23 documents to back my claim up. It's about the letter M, all of it,
24 month, March, May, my throat feeling a bit dry with tension, all these
25 problems that I am facing. Please try to understand my situation
Page 4828
1 appearing as a witness here.
2 Q. All right. We'll move on now. So do I understand your evidence
3 correctly that you were based at the Bikavac hotel from the 19th of May,
4 1992, and that at some later date you were sent to the Zupa area near the
5 village of Rujiste?
6 A. At Bikavac, I was in charge of hygiene and accommodation and then
7 this mate of mine who was a male nurse was killed somewhere on the ground
8 in Rujiste village, and then I drove there to replace him. He had just
9 been killed and I continued working --
10 Q. If I can just interrupt you, we will be able to shorten things a
11 little bit.
12 MR. ALARID: I would ask that the witness be allowed to complete
13 his answer.
14 MR. COLE: Your Honours I'm going to be asking further about this
15 now. I'm not chopping him off now. It's just that if we're going to get
16 long answers like this, we're going to be here for a longer period of
17 time.
18 MR. ALARID: The witness was simply responding to the question as
19 best he could.
20 MR. COLE:
21 Q. Now, MLD22, I'll put the question to you again. I'm interested
22 in the timings here. You were at the Bikavac hotel from the 19th of May,
23 1992, and some time after that, and I'm going to ask you about it, you
24 were sent to the Zupa area near the village of Rujiste
25 right?
Page 4829
1 A. Yes, I was.
2 Q. And the reason that you went to the Rujiste area is because a
3 male nurse called Stevo Grujic was killed somewhere in that area, and you
4 replaced him; have we got that right?
5 A. That is right, sir.
6 Q. Now, the first name Stevo, is that short for Stevan, S-t-e-v-a-n?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How many days after the death of Stevan Grujic did you arrive --
9 did you actually arrive in the Rujiste area?
10 A. I cannot remember the day with precision, but it was within a few
11 days that I left.
12 Q. And can you tell us how far Rujiste is from Visegrad both in time
13 to get there in a car and the distance?
14 A. Well, whether it was 24 or 26 kilometres to the positions,
15 believe me, I never measured, but it is thereabouts.
16 Q. About how long to drive there?
17 A. It takes an hour or so, an hour and ten minutes, 70 minutes in
18 all.
19 Q. And did your unit have a name or number, the part of the unit,
20 the unit that were part of at Rujiste?
21 A. I don't understand.
22 Q. Well, you'd been mobilised, you were part of a force that was
23 sent to Rujiste. Did this group have an army number or a regimental
24 number, something like that or a name?
25 A. It may have been called the 1st Company or the Zupa Unit or
Page 4830
1 something of that sort.
2 Q. So how far was your unit or your group from the front line or
3 action with the enemy during the time that you were there near Rujiste?
4 A. That unit just held the position in order to prevent any clashes
5 from occurring. It held the right bank of the Drina from the
6 Brusnicki creek in the direction of Visegrad.
7 Q. Yes, what I'm asking, how far away was the nearest enemy action
8 to where you were?
9 MR. ALARID: Objection, calls for speculation. Asked and
10 answered.
11 MR. COLE: Well, it may be a speculative answer that's coming but
12 let's wait and hear it from him, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Answer the question, Witness.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honours. Well,
15 the Drina
16 follows the line towards [indiscernible] and so on and so forth. I don't
17 know. It is quite forbidding terrain. The canyon is there too, and I
18 can only speculate, and you are a Court. I can't do that. I cannot say
19 with precision.
20 I am in charge of hygiene of medical matters, I wasn't interested
21 in these things, believe me. What was my concern was that the troops
22 should be healthy, and that was my duty and those were my problems, my
23 concerns.
24 MR. COLE:
25 Q. Well, certainly you would be interested where the enemy were,
Page 4831
1 wouldn't you, how close they were?
2 MR. ALARID: Objection, relevance.
3 MR. COLE: All right. We'll move on.
4 Q. Now, Stevan Grujic, before you went to Rujiste in 1992 as you've
5 been telling the Court, had you met this man before or did you know him?
6 A. Stevan Grujic was a technician in Visegrad, and he worked as a
7 male nurse in this medical unit. I know him personally, and I'm very
8 sorry for the man. He was a decent fellow, a good citizen, a good
9 colleague, a good associate, a friend.
10 Q. All right. Now, Stevan Grujic, the year that he would have been
11 born, would that be 1940, would that be about right?
12 A. I don't know. I can't say with precision. I can't testify to
13 that because I just don't know. But he was a senior technician.
14 Q. Well, if we're talking about 1992 when you knew him, was he about
15 50 at that stage?
16 MR. ALARID: Objection, asked and answered.
17 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Cole, can you give us a time
18 estimate because the examination-in-chief had 18 minutes, and you have
19 now had something like more than half an hour; and we still have three
20 witnesses or two witnesses this afternoon.
21 MR. ALARID: Actually only one, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Only one, okay.
23 MR. COLE: I hope I can conclude this in 20 minutes, Your Honour.
24 Q. I was asking you about Mr. Grujic and would he have been about
25 the age -- you said you knew him personally, would he have been about 50
Page 4832
1 when you knew him in 1992?
2 A. Well, if you say so, let it be so. I cannot guess. I don't
3 know. I really don't know. Whether he looks young, that's something
4 else.
5 Q. Can you confirm for us, then, that the area that he was killed
6 was in the vicinity of Klasnik a little bit south of Rujiste. I'll spell
7 that, K-l-a-s- with a mark over it -n-i-k.
8 MR. ALARID: Objection, calls for speculation.
9 MR. COLE: Your Honour, my learned friend, Mr. Alarid, is making
10 some, what I would describe as, objections that don't have any basis.
11 It's a -- and it's happening time and time again. It's a matter that may
12 well be within the province of this witness, and we won't know until he's
13 allowed to give an answer.
14 MR. ALARID: Then he can ask him if he knows, but the fact of the
15 matter is, is he wasn't there so he's asking him to speculate.
16 MR. COLE: Your Honour, we're allowed to ask the witness and
17 effectively what it is, is the basis of the testimony that he gave
18 yesterday that he replaced this man because he was killed. Now it may be
19 that he has a lot of further information that about this that we don't
20 know about, and, with respect, I'm entitled to ask him further questions
21 in this area. It may be that he can assist the Court here.
22 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I will allow the questions, Mr. Cole.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. COLE:
25 Q. MLD22, can you confirm that it was in the general area of Klasnik
Page 4833
1 south of Rujiste that you understand Mr. Grujic was killed?
2 A. He was killed on the road, that is what I learned, but, sir, I
3 wasn't there. I cannot know with precision. I only know that people
4 have placed flowers on the spot to mark the spot where he was killed.
5 This is our custom. So that is there.
6 Q. Yes, thank you, sir. The flowers are placed in the Klasnik area,
7 that's what you're saying.
8 A. Yes, on the road there, and I would not say anything further
9 about it in order not to speculate.
10 Q. All right. Let's move on and see if we can finish these
11 questions promptly. So is it your evidence that you saw the parents of
12 Milan Lukic on a regular basis during the time that you were posted at
13 Rujiste, in that area?
14 A. Yes, I had to see them when I was touring the unit, the men were
15 in dug-outs, in tents and I had to see them because they would come
16 sometimes to get some food, they would come carrying some utensils and
17 such.
18 Q. All right. Could I just ask you if you could, try and limit your
19 answers to short answers, if you could, please. How long were you posted
20 to this Rujiste area?
21 A. Well, I don't know exactly. I cannot remember. It was for quite
22 a while.
23 Q. All right. Can you give us some assistance, was it one month,
24 three, six months, a year? How long?
25 A. It was over a year.
Page 4834
1 Q. And is it your evidence that on some occasions you saw
2 Milan Lukic visiting his parents during that period of a year?
3 A. Well, yes, normally, sir, everyone wants to see one's parents,
4 one's mother and one's father, and to see what kind of health condition
5 they are in and generally how they are. And after all, it was the front
6 line, there were no sources of food. The spot was inaccessible. One had
7 to get the food and other necessities there.
8 Q. Could I just ask, please, that you try and keep your answers
9 short if you can, thank you.
10 MR. COLE: Your Honour, could I ask that the witness be shown a
11 set of documents on the list that I have submitted. It's the Milan
12 65 ter number 5. And I'm going to ask that two pages be displayed at the
13 same time, one in B/C/S and one in English. 65 ter number 5, the
14 document number 1D21-0479 and the B/C/S is ERN 0213-2847. The English
15 version 1D21-0483, the English ERN 0213-2851.
16 Q. Now, in a moment, MLD22, you're going to see a list of names come
17 up on the screen in front of you, and I want you to have a look, please,
18 at item number 59 on the list.
19 A. Just a minute. Let me get my glasses.
20 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: We are told that the documents were not
21 released, and that it may take some time for them to be uploaded.
22 MR. COLE: Very well. I'll move on with questions, Your Honour,
23 and perhaps an indication when it's available and I can go back to that.
24 Our case manager has indicated the document number that will assist is
25 0213-2844, that must be the main number.
Page 4835
1 All right. I'll move on with the questions.
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 MR. COLE: Your Honour, that may need to be redacted, and we
7 should be in private session.
8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Do you want to go in private session, is
9 that what you ask?
10 MR. COLE: Well, in fact, it -- if that could be redacted, that
11 question and answer and then we can remain in open session, thank you.
12 Your Honour, perhaps we can now deal with the documents that are
13 on the screen and if I can ask the witness.
14 Q. Can you see a document on the screen in front of you, MLD22, it's
15 number 59 and can you see that on the screen?
16 A. I can.
17 Q. And that, correct me if I am wrong, indicates that Stevan Grujic,
18 born 1940 from Koritnik was killed at Klasnik on the 28th of August,
19 1992; is that what it says?
20 A. That's what it says, Mr. Judge.
21 Q. And you can see the small photo there of number 59, does that
22 seem to be the Stevan Grujic that you knew?
23 A. The photograph is quite fuzzy, it's slightly damaged, but it is
24 Stevan Grujic.
25 Q. And the details that you can see alongside that little photograph
Page 4836
1 there, can you confirm that that information accords with your
2 recollection that Stevan Grujic would have been killed on about the 28th
3 of August, 1992, at Klasnik?
4 MR. ALARID: Objection. I believe that misstates the evidence
5 already presented. I believe the witness already testified as to his
6 recollection.
7 MR. COLE: This is --
8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Can you tell us how it misstates the
9 evidence, Mr. Alarid? I don't see your point.
10 MR. ALARID: Well, in looking at the question itself, it
11 specifically says: Can you confirm that this information accords with
12 your recollection that Stevan Grujic would have been killed on or about
13 the 28th of August, 1992, at Klasnik. He never gave a date or a time.
14 He specifically stated he could not do that. Or the date is not his
15 recollection.
16 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Can you clarify that, Mr. Cole?
17 MR. COLE: Your Honour, when he was asked about this before, he
18 didn't have this information. He now has this information and it's, with
19 respect, permissible to put this to him and see if that accords with his
20 recollection, and that's what I'm doing. I should be allowed to ask that
21 question. Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: You can proceed.
23 MR. COLE:
24 Q. MLD22, you can see the details about the death of Stevan Grujic.
25 Let's go through it point by point. Do you have any reason to believe
Page 4837
1 that the date of the 28th of August, 1992, is not correct?
2 A. Mr. Judge, you can write whatever you like, but I simply cannot
3 recollect the exact date. I'm saying the truth and only the truth. It
4 is very difficult for me to recall that time given all the traumas and
5 the difficulties that I have gone through, I cannot remember the dates
6 with precision. It is stated here the way you put it, but I cannot
7 recall it myself. Many things have happened since.
8 Q. What I'm asking you, MLD22, is there any reason that you would
9 dispute that date, any reason it can't be that date?
10 MR. ALARID: Objection, asked and answered. I believe the last
11 answer suffices.
12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I would disagree with that, Mr. Alarid.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Cole.
14 MR. COLE: Yes.
15 Q. Witness, you have the dates in front of you, the date of death,
16 the 28th of August, 1992. Is there any reason that you know of that that
17 date must be or is incorrect, 28 August 1992?
18 A. If you claim, Mr. Judge, that that is correct, then let it be so,
19 but as far as I'm concerned, I cannot say. Perhaps other people have
20 conveyed other information to you. I cannot say with precision and
21 please do not torment me in this regard.
22 Q. All right. Then let's use the date, the 28th of August, 1992
23 If you arrived in the Rujiste area a couple of days or so after the death
24 of Mr. Grujic, that -- it follows, doesn't it, that you were in that area
25 from, let's say, September -- early September 1992 to about September
Page 4838
1 1993; would that be right?
2 A. Perhaps it was longer or shorter than that because as I said
3 before, after all these traumas and ordeals, I didn't actually record
4 those dates I cannot confirm with precision any of them. I was there for
5 over a year or so, and that is what I have said to you, and please take
6 that as the information that I'm able to give you.
7 MR. COLE: Your Honour, could I ask that this document be
8 admitted into evidence and given an exhibit number.
9 MR. ALARID: Objection, lack of foundation.
10 MR. COLE: Your Honour, the document is part of the Defence 65
11 ter exhibit list, it's number 5. The witness has indicated that the
12 photo appears to be of a man who he has named in his evidence in chief.
13 He's confirmed the place of death, and he hasn't contradicted the date of
14 death. There's more than enough with -- in my submission, for this
15 document now to go into evidence.
16 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: What is the source, what is the origin
17 of the document?
18 MR. COLE: As I have indicated, it is on the Defence 65 ter
19 exhibit list, and I believe that we, that is the Office of the
20 Prosecutor, did disclose this as part of the materials that were
21 disclosed.
22 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Who is the source of the document?
23 MR. COLE: The source of the document is through VG-59 as I
24 understand it, who was one of the original Prosecution witnesses. He
25 hasn't been called, but he produced this document to an investigator, I
Page 4839
1 think, about 2001, came into our possession then. So that's the track
2 record of the document as I know it, and certainly the Defence intends or
3 have indicated they intended to rely on it in some way. So it's a matter
4 of weight, I suppose, in due course, once it's to be considered in due
5 course by the Court.
6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes, Mr. Alarid.
7 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, the 65 ter list is often expansive
8 because we have notification requirements, but we couldn't lay a
9 foundation for this nor authenticate the documents, so that becomes a
10 problem. Not being able to do such, we probably will never introduce
11 this and unless the witness can lay a foundation as to authenticate the
12 document, the Prosecutor cannot be a witness and testify to that history
13 even if it's true.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: We will mark it for identification at
16 this stage, Mr. Cole.
17 MR. COLE: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P246 marked for identification,
19 Your Honours.
20 MR. COLE:
21 Q. Now, MLD22, do you know Sredoje Lukic?
22 MR. ALARID: Objection. Beyond the scope of direct examination.
23 MR. DIECKMANN: Just for the record, we join this objection.
24 MR. COLE: Your Honour, this was I think -- this was -- this
25 objection was raised yesterday and dealt with as well.
Page 4840
1 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes, we have already ruled on that so
2 please proceed, Mr. Cole.
3 MR. COLE:
4 Q. The question is: Do you know Sredoje Lukic?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. And who is he?
7 A. Sredoje Lukic was a member of the police of the city of Visegrad
8 Actually, he worked in the police station of Visegrad.
9 Q. When did you last see Sredoje Lukic before today?
10 A. I cannot recall.
11 Q. Well, was it in the 1990s or since the year 2000?
12 MR. ALARID: Asked and answered.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge ...
14 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Answer the question, please.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not quite clear on what your
16 question was. Actually, it didn't get through the headphones.
17 MR. COLE:
18 Q. Can you just give us some idea when it was you last saw
19 Sredoje Lukic?
20 A. I saw him on Visegrad television as a prisoner, tortured person,
21 sorely tortured person.
22 Q. And that's the last time you saw him; is that what you're saying?
23 A. I don't know. I cannot tell you with precision. I do not
24 remember. It was in 1993 or 1994, I believe. I'm not sure.
25 I cannot give you a precise answer because I was on the front
Page 4841
1 line, the police were doing their work, I was doing my work. I can only
2 guess, if that is to be done. If not, then I cannot.
3 Q. All right. And Milan Lukic, when was the last time you saw him
4 in person?
5 A. Difficult to say. I saw him when he came to visit his parents,
6 when he brought them food and coffee and drinks, that sort of thing,
7 medicine.
8 Q. So what are you saying, that it was around 1993 that you last saw
9 Milan
10 A. Yes, Mr. Judge.
11 Q. Just one last area that I want to ask you some questions about.
12 Who was the first person to contact you on behalf of the Milan Lukic
13 defence in relation to testifying in this trial?
14 A. I can't remember, a man who struck me as an athlete arrived from
15 America
16 sorts, something. I don't know what he was called.
17 Q. So are you saying the first contact you had was from someone in
18 person as opposed to a phone call, this person arrived to speak with you
19 in Visegrad?
20 A. He came there, and he spoke to me.
21 Q. I just want to be clear. Was this the first contact you had from
22 somebody about testifying in this trial when this person arrived to speak
23 with you?
24 A. The first contact, Mr. Judge.
25 Q. And was this person a man -- a very tall man called
Page 4842
1 Vladimir Rasic?
2 A. Tall, yes, an athlete. Was it him? Was it not him? It probably
3 was, if you say so; but it's difficult for me to commit. He was into
4 basketball, one of those judges there or some sort or other. But was he
5 or was he not, I don't know.
6 Q. The person that we're talking about, is he the person that went
7 with you to the MUP building to sign a written statement and get it
8 certified? Are we talking about the same person?
9 A. Sir, I didn't go to the MUP building. I went to the municipality
10 building, to one of the offices there. I made a statement there. We
11 both signed it, had it stamped, and we parted ways. I headed back to my
12 work and this other man had other business to conduct elsewhere, so there
13 you have it. I never wanted to have too much to do with those judges
14 there, so they worked me over a little -- well, you know how that goes
15 but I had no choice, really, did I?
16 Q. I just want to clear this with you. Was it on this first
17 occasion that this tall man came to see you? Was it on that same
18 occasion that you went to the municipality building to get your
19 statement, written statement certified on that very first occasion?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And you signed a typed statement, and the official put an
22 official stamp on the statement; that's right, isn't it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that was the first time you heard from anyone from the
25 Milan Lukic Defence; correct?
Page 4843
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. So when this gentleman spoke to you on that first occasion, did
3 he have a typed-up statement ready for you to sign?
4 A. He asked me questions and wrote it down, all of it. I told him
5 what I knew, and I stand by that.
6 Q. Did he type up the statement in your presence?
7 A. Gentlemen, he was writing something. Was it in English? Was it
8 in Serbian? I really don't know. But he took this statement and
9 probably had it typed up later, perhaps something or other, he wasn't
10 there with me in the office any longer. Whatever it was that he did, he
11 then brought it back. We both signed it. That was that.
12 Q. So you're saying that after speaking to you, he went away and
13 typed the statement up; is that what you're saying?
14 A. Well, what do you expect me to say? There is -- there are
15 certain kinds of technology that are used for typing up letters, aren't
16 there? You can make a statement through these faxes, monitors, all these
17 gadgets. What do I know? I don't really know much about that. I gave
18 the statement. The man wrote it down. I signed it, that sort of thing.
19 He gave me a sheet of paper to write the statement down to confirm was
20 that it, no, yes, yes, okay.
21 Q. Are you saying that you wrote a longhand statement also in
22 addition to this typed statement?
23 A. Well, Mr. Judge, of course he asked me, Do you know Milan Lukic?
24 Yes, sir. Do you know Milan Lukic? He wrote it. I didn't write it. I
25 just confirmed what he wrote. I think that's the best way of putting it,
Page 4844
1 just for you to be perfectly clear, you and everyone else around this
2 courtroom.
3 Q. Well it's not quite clear. I wonder if you could just explain to
4 us what you actually wrote down.
5 MR. ALARID: Objection. Asked and answered.
6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Don't interfere, Mr. Alarid.
7 MR. ALARID: I apologise, excuse me.
8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Please don't interfere with the
9 question.
10 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, page 25, line 2 to line 8 appears
11 to be an answer and then also line 11 to line 14 continues the answer.
12 MR. COLE:
13 Q. Yes, Witness, page 25, line 5, line 6 -- that sort of thing, he
14 gave me a sheet of paper to write this statement down, to confirm that --
15 you indicated in your evidence earlier that you wrote something down in
16 response to this man, and I'd like you to tell us what it was that you
17 wrote down.
18 A. Well, I wrote down to have it for myself what I gave him,
19 Mr. Judge, because how will I now write -- you can write something to the
20 effect of Zoran killed someone, but then Zoran didn't, and then the clerk
21 certifies this, puts a stamp on it. I write down for my own benefit what
22 I gave to him, and he takes away what I stated for him. Are you now
23 clear about what I did?
24 I'm sorry that I don't have the note that I made for my benefit
25 with me now. What I knew, what I stated as to what I knew about
Page 4845
1 Milan Lukic, the statement that I wrote, well, if you are clear now, I
2 think it should be sufficiently clear to everyone now. I don't think
3 this would warrant much further comment from anyone.
4 Q. Well, I'm almost finished with my questions for you, but I'm
5 afraid I'm not clear, so if we could just clear it up before I finish.
6 Number one, you signed a typewritten statement, which was stamped
7 at the municipal office. Do you agree with that?
8 A. Well, yeah, you can keep that in that case, Mr. Judge, let's put
9 it that way.
10 Q. I just want to do this in steps, and the first thing is, I want
11 you to confirm that you signed a typed-up written statement which was
12 certified at the public office; have we got that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Now, what other documents did you write? What other
15 document did you write on that same occasion that you either kept or
16 which this man from the Milan Lukic team took away with him?
17 MR. ALARID: Asked and answered.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same statement that I signed,
19 the same that the lawyer took away. I had that same statement on me,
20 Mr. Judge. If only I had a copy of that statement to keep it from being
21 misused by this Tribunal. And I think now you should be perfect clear
22 about this, you including all those present in this courtroom, sir. Why
23 should I go on talking about that? I've crossed all this way to be here
24 and now, now, we are having an exchange of opinions as to whether this
25 was the case or not. Sure thing. A man must keep a copy of a statement
Page 4846
1 that had a man has made, so, of course, I've got one too.
2 MR. COLE:
3 Q. So what you're saying now is the only thing you wrote down was
4 your signature on a typed statement; is that what you're saying?
5 MR. ALARID: Objection, misstates the answer.
6 MR. COLE:
7 Q. That's an easy question, isn't it? Is the only thing you wrote
8 your signature on that typed statement?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. COLE: Your Honour, I've almost finished here.
11 Q. What other members of the Milan Lukic Defence team have you met
12 in person?
13 A. What do you mean? Here, or generally speaking?
14 Q. Before you arrived here in The Hague.
15 A. Well, I saw that first lawyer who came, and then another lawyer
16 came, an American or something. I don't really know. Believe me, I
17 don't have a very good head for names.
18 Q. Was that other person Mr. Ivetic that came to see you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When did he come to see you?
21 A. Yes. Just before my departure to have my statement confirmed to
22 make sure that I stood by my previous statement, and I said, Yes, sir. I
23 had to leave work when he came to speak to me. And then I went back to
24 work because our pay is based on performance.
25 Q. What month was it that you saw Mr. Ivetic?
Page 4847
1 A. Was it January or thereabouts?
2 Q. That's January this year?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. And finally, have you met Jelena Rasic from the Milan Lukic
5 Defence team?
6 A. No.
7 MR. COLE: Yes, thank you. Your Honours, I have no further
8 questions.
9 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Cole.
10 MR. ALARID: I release the witness, Your Honour, no further
11 questions.
12 MLD22, we thank you for attending to testify here, and the
13 Milan Lukic team appreciates your presence. Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Judge David observes that on line 28, 18
16 the answer of the witness has not been recorded. Have you met
17 Jelena Rasic from the Lukic team? What was the answer it's not recorded.
18 MR. COLE: Yes, I understood the answer from the witness to be
19 no, a negative. Perhaps we could just clarify that.
20 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Clarify that with the witness.
21 MR. COLE: I'll ask him again.
22 Q. MLD22, it appears the answer to the last question was not
23 recorded so I'll ask you again. Have you met Jelena Rasic, a member of
24 the Milan Lukic Defence team?
25 A. No, sir.
Page 4848
1 MR. COLE: Yes, thank you.
2 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much. Witness, that
3 brings your evidence to an end. We thank you for coming to The Hague
4 if you wait just a few minutes, this Chamber will rise and then you will
5 be allowed to go.
6 We are going to have the break now. We will have a break of half
7 an hour, so we will resume just after 4.00.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.
11 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes.
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
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Page 4849
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18 (redacted)
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20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 MS. MARCUS: With apologies, Your Honour, apologies.
25 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It should be redacted. So Mr. Alarid,
Page 4850
1 what is your answer to this?
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour, I would say that that submission
12 by the Defence supports our arguments. The first question is why is it
13 relevant to this case? And the second submission is are they calling one
14 Defence witness to challenge the evidence of another Defence witness?
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Alarid.
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
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24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 4851
1 (redacted)
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4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour, the Defence of Milan Lukic calls
12 Mr. Miodrag Mitrasinovic.
13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: While we are waiting for the witness to
14 arrive, a housekeeping matter. We have tried to accommodate you,
15 Mr. Alarid, but we've not been able to move the case to the afternoon, so
16 we won't be able to hear your witness on Monday.
17 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, well then I would apologise and just
18 simply say we're simply going to have to deal with our next witness and
19 I'll try and squeeze that witness in as best I can in the next couple
20 weeks, I'd say. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good afternoon, Witness. Will you
23 please read the affirmation on the paper that is held before you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Page 4852
1 WITNESS: MIODRAG MITRASINOVIC
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much. You may sit down.
4 You may sit down.
5 Now Mr. Alarid is going to ask you a few questions.
6 Examination by Mr. Alarid:
7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mitrasinovic.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. As you may recall, my name is Jason Alarid, I met with you
10 earlier this morning for the first time.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you are being recorded, and I know the translators are going
13 to have to hear you, and I can hear that you speak very softly. You will
14 have to speak up for your testimony; okay?
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. How are you feeling today?
17 A. Fine.
18 Q. Have you ever testified in court before?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And you're testifying today in open session without protective
21 measures. Now, because of the fact that we are proceeding with an
22 interpreter, it is very important that if you do not understand a
23 particular question of mine or the Prosecutor's or the Court's that you
24 let us know and we can repeat our question; is that acceptable to you?
25 A. Yes.
Page 4853
1 Q. Now, to begin with, please state your full name for the Court,
2 please.
3 A. Miodrag Mitrasinovic.
4 Q. And what is your ethnicity?
5 A. I'm a Serb.
6 Q. And when and where were you born?
7 A. The 18th of November, 1960 in Prelovska Rijeka near Visegrad.
8 Q. And how old does that make you today?
9 A. 49.
10 Q. And can you tell us where your educational background, where you
11 started school, where you went to school.
12 A. I went to secondary school, lock smith. I went to elementary
13 school in Prelovo, and then to Visegrad.
14 Q. And please again, what village are you from near Visegrad?
15 A. Prelovska Rijeka.
16 Q. And how far away is that from Visegrad?
17 A. 14 kilometres.
18 Q. And, of course, the -- this case here surrounds the war in 1992,
19 but tell us about when you left secondary school and what you did after
20 that.
21 A. Well, I finished when I was 18 and then I was off to the army,
22 and after the army I got a job in Belgrade
23 Q. Okay. And so when you left secondary school, you were about
24 18 years old, that's correct?
25 A. Yes, thereabouts.
Page 4854
1 Q. Okay. And tell us about your compulsory military service; where
2 did you serve?
3 A. I served in Croatia
4 Q. And how long was your -- and when was your compulsory military
5 service?
6 A. 1979, 1980.
7 Q. And after 1980, what did you do with yourself?
8 A. I worked in a tractor factory in New Belgrade.
9 Q. What was the name of that factory, if you can recall?
10 A. IMT, the tractor motor industry.
11 Q. And are you married?
12 A. I used to be, but I am now divorced.
13 Q. Do you have any children?
14 A. Yes, a son.
15 Q. And were you married in 1992?
16 A. Divorced.
17 Q. Now, just before the war, were you living in Visegrad or were you
18 living in New Belgrade?
19 A. Surcin, more specifically.
20 Q. And in 1992, what brought you back to Visegrad?
21 A. Well, when the clashes broke out, my grandfather was killed in
22 1941 by the Muslims, so that normally just like any person hailing from
23 those parts in order to prevent history from repeating itself, I went
24 there to defend my homestead.
25 Q. Now, where are you living presently today?
Page 4855
1 A. Presently, I'm living in Podgorica.
2 Q. And what is your current occupation?
3 A. I work in a construction company, the road and bridges building
4 part of the company.
5 Q. Now, when the war broke out in Bosnia, were you mobilised?
6 A. Initially we were just village guards, and then later, I joined
7 the Army of Republika Srpska when we were mobilised.
8 Q. Can you recall when you were mobilised?
9 A. Sometime around the 15th of May, 1992.
10 Q. And why do you recall that specifically?
11 A. Well, I recall the beginning very well.
12 Q. Tell us about the beginning.
13 A. I can do that. We were assigned to different elevation points.
14 I was at Putina Stijene [phoen] for a while, then they shifted me to
15 Gornja Lijeska to Han Brdo, Sjemensko Polje [phoen], and these places.
16 Q. What structure mobilised you, what part of the military structure
17 were you part of?
18 A. Infantry.
19 Q. And do you recall who your commander was?
20 A. Pero Kovacevic was.
21 Q. And what kind of uniforms did you wear during your military
22 service?
23 A. Well, everyone wore what they had. We had olive-drab uniforms,
24 we had camouflage uniforms. It was the beginning of the war so not all
25 the uniforms were uniform.
Page 4856
1 Q. And do you remember what unit you were part of specifically?
2 A. I was in the Intervention Platoon.
3 Q. And prior to the war, did you know Milan Lukic at all?
4 A. No.
5 Q. When was the first time you came to know of Milan Lukic?
6 A. I met Milan
7 his bar.
8 Q. And understanding that that's when you knew Milan personally,
9 tell me when the first time you knew of him.
10 A. Well, believe me, that was the time I heard of him. We had
11 never -- or had seldom met before that. We didn't know each other. I
12 was in one platoon, he was in another one and we were at different
13 elevation points.
14 Q. Now, with regard to the platoon you were in, what company were
15 you -- the Intervention Brigade, how many men are in the Intervention
16 Brigade?
17 A. Well, the Intervention Brigade comprised four Intervention
18 Platoons, there were over 100 men there.
19 Q. And so approximately how many men were assigned to each platoon?
20 A. Well, it depended, 30 or more than that or less than that. It
21 depended on the specific case.
22 Q. Now, at what point in time was it your understanding that
23 Milan Lukic became part of the larger Intervention Brigade or company?
24 A. I don't know. I do not remember.
25 Q. Now, specifically, you'd like to ask you -- you say you were
Page 4857
1 mobilised about the 15th of May; is that correct? And that's 1992.
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. And tell us how you were mobilised, what did the system do to you
4 so that you became mobilised?
5 A. Well, I reported up there at the command, and then they assigned
6 me to my position.
7 MR. ALARID: Can we go into private session, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private session.
9 [Private session]
10 (redacted)
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Page 4858
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12
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Page 4859
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18 (redacted)
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
21 MR. ALARID:
22 Q. Now, specifically understanding that you, ultimately, were in the
23 same company in the Intervention Brigade with Milan Lukic, did you ever
24 have any time to actually fight with him or were you apart?
25 A. No, we never were together, we were perhaps quite near one
Page 4860
1 another, trick point, another trick point; but we never acted together.
2 Q. Did you know of a scout unit with Sladjan Simic?
3 A. I had heard of that unit, but we had no occasion to participate
4 in any actions together.
5 Q. Now, when were you first approached to be a witness by -- related
6 to the Milan Lukic case?
7 A. Some time this autumn.
8 Q. And who came to meet you?
9 A. Jelena Rasic did.
10 Q. And tell us about what you did during that meeting.
11 A. I was down there in Podgorica at that time.
12 Q. And were you made aware about the accusations against you related
13 to the Sase junction and the Drina River
14 A. I was -- rather I had heard about it, and that is why I came here
15 in order to clear my name.
16 Q. Is that why you're speaking here without protective measures?
17 A. Exactly.
18 Q. And since that meeting, had you ever been able to meet with a
19 lawyer from the Defence team such as myself or Mr. Ivetic, who you met
20 with this morning?
21 A. Yes, I had a meeting for the first time this morning.
22 Q. And so it's fair to say that you had not met an attorney for the
23 team until today?
24 A. No, I had not.
25 Q. Now, as part of our proofing session, I showed you a statement
Page 4861
1 that you gave to Bosnian authorities, correct, in 2002?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And I don't know if we need to bring it up, Your Honour, but
4 maybe just to have it available, ERN 0646-6387, a two-page document
5 ending at 0646-6388.
6 Could we go to the second page, please, and the signature for the
7 witness.
8 Is that your signature?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. Now, tell us about the circumstances of your being called in for
11 a statement in 2002.
12 A. Well, they called me --
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not quite sure she heard the
14 witness properly. Could the answer please be repeated.
15 MR. ALARID:
16 Q. Sir, could you please repeat yourself. The interpreter could not
17 hear you.
18 A. They called me in connection with a hijacking of the train and in
19 that connection, I gave the statement. That is why I was contacted.
20 Q. And you had a chance to read your statement this morning, do you
21 need any more time to read it today or are you comfortable talking about
22 it?
23 A. No problem. That's okay.
24 Q. Tell the Court in summary what you had to say about that train
25 incident?
Page 4862
1 A. I don't know anything about it, and that is actually what I
2 stated in this written statement of mine.
3 Q. Have you ever been charged with a crime in relation to that?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Have you ever been charged with a crime?
6 A. No, never.
7 Q. And I showed you some photographs this morning to see if you
8 could remember them. Do you remember those photographs?
9 A. I can't say, it was the very beginning. I'm not quite sure.
10 Well, we had some photographs taken, I don't see how bad that can be.
11 Q. Just in reviewing those photographs, do you remember when or
12 where they were taken?
13 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, can we know which photographs are
14 being referred to?
15 MR. ALARID: They are part of the Srevren [phoen] photographs.
16 And since I can't recognise them as a young man, I forget which ones I
17 showed him; I showed him the entire set, so that becomes an issue.
18 Q. In those photographs, you saw yourself, did you not, on a couple
19 of those?
20 A. Yes. Yes, two or three of them. I can't be sure.
21 Q. Now in those photographs, at least, there is some inference that
22 Milan Lukic was in the general area or part of the photographs; is that
23 fair?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And I'm sure the Prosecution is going to ask you in a little
Page 4863
1 while as to how you didn't know Mr. Milan Lukic better at that time if
2 you are in photographs in proximity to him. What do you have to say
3 about that?
4 A. I do have lots of photographs with lots of soldiers whom I don't
5 know, but they are with me in photographs. And they have my photographs
6 without necessarily knowing me.
7 Q. You'll ask you one last time before I release you as a witness:
8 Did you participate in the killing at the Drina River
9 A. No.
10 MR. ALARID: I have no further questions of this witness at this
11 time, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Alarid. Ms. Marcus.
13 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus:
15 Q. Mr. Mitrasinovic, good afternoon. My name is Maxine Marcus, and
16 I will be asking you some questions on behalf of the Prosecution today.
17 In 1992, you were approximately 32 years old. Would you say
18 that's correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you were, as you have testified today, a member of the
21 Republika Srpska army; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, the dates of your military service were from, as you've
24 said, approximately the 15th of May, 1992, through until 1995; isn't that
25 correct?
Page 4864
1 A. It is.
2 Q. Would you agree that during the months of April, May and June of
3 1992, there was active armed combat in the area in Visegrad and the
4 surrounding municipalities?
5 A. There were provocations on their part. There were attacks on
6 Serbian villages and such.
7 Q. Now, to your knowledge, would it have been possible for someone
8 to be fighting under the VRS command while simultaneously serving as,
9 let's say, a mobilised police officer?
10 MR. ALARID: Objection calls for speculation, lack of foundation.
11 MS. MARCUS: Well, I asked him to his knowledge, he can say he
12 doesn't know.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand the question.
14 MS. MARCUS:
15 Q. My question was: According to your knowledge, would it have been
16 possible for someone to have been fighting under the VRS command while
17 simultaneously serving as a mobilised police officer?
18 A. Well, the police, too, was part of the Army of Republika Srpska.
19 It participated like the other troops.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, you returned to Visegrad in the first half of
21 1992; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you voluntarily joined the VRS; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. You testified that you were in the Intervention Company or the
Page 4865
1 Intervention Unit of the Visegrad Brigade; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And in that capacity, you carried an automatic weapon with you,
4 did you not?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. And you wore a camouflage uniform, did you not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. At any time, did you wear any uniform or bear any insignia which
9 would have been worn by the police?
10 A. I did not understand.
11 Q. My question to you was: At any time, did you wear any uniform or
12 bear any insignia which would have been worn by the police?
13 A. We wore our emblems of the Serbian Army, that is the police had
14 their insignia.
15 Q. Within the Intervention Company, you were the commander of the
16 3rd Platoon; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, Mr. Mitrasinovic, your evidence today was that you did not
19 know Milan Lukic in 1992; isn't that right?
20 A. Yes, it was.
21 Q. Now, you testified that you didn't know him personally but did
22 you see him around in 1992?
23 A. We may have seen each other, but I didn't know who he was.
24 Q. So do you confirm that you saw him around Visegrad in June of
25 1992?
Page 4866
1 A. I'm not sure that I saw him at that time.
2 Q. Well, when you did see him, can you describe the kind of uniform
3 you saw him wearing?
4 A. When I saw him, when I know for a fact that I did see him was the
5 end of the war. At that time, he was in civilian clothes.
6 Q. Are you aware of the existence of an armed unit which was led by
7 Milan
8 A. I'm not aware of it.
9 Q. So your evidence here today is that you are unaware of whether
10 Milan Lukic had his own armed group in Visegrad in 1992; is that correct?
11 A. I am unaware of that fact.
12 Q. Now, as predicted by the Defence, I'm going to show you a few
13 photographs.
14 Could I ask the court officer, please, to call up, please, 1D98.
15 Could I request, please, that we focus on the top photograph
16 first.
17 Mr. Mitrasinovic, do you recognise any of the people in this
18 photograph?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Could we go to the bottom photograph, please. Now, I'd like to
21 ask you the same question about this photograph. Do you recognise any of
22 the individuals in this photograph?
23 A. I only know Mitar Knezevic. I only recognise Mitar Knezevic.
24 Q. Can you tell us which one is Mitar Knezevic?
25 A. This one here.
Page 4867
1 MS. MARCUS: Is it possible to have the witness mark, assisted
2 with marking the photograph, please.
3 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
4 MS. MARCUS:
5 Q. Now can you confirm that the person you've just circled is the
6 person that you've just named as Mitar Knezevic?
7 A. I can.
8 Q. And what, to your knowledge, was his role during the war?
9 A. Well, I'm not quite sure. He was usually among the village
10 guards. I know that his brother's house had been burnt down.
11 Q. Now, what unit did he fight in, if you know?
12 A. He wasn't a military conscript. He had lost the sight of one
13 eye, so he was never mobilised.
14 Q. Now, the uniform that you see him wearing, was this a kind of a
15 uniform that was standardly worn by the VRS, members of the VRS?
16 A. Well, it's difficult to see. Everybody wore what they could. I
17 don't know where he got this uniform from.
18 Q. Now, particularly focussing on his hat, could you confirm that
19 that hat was frequently worn by members of a unit that may have been
20 referred to as the White Eagles?
21 MR. ALARID: Objection, lack of foundation.
22 MS. MARCUS: I'm asking him if he can confirm it.
23 Q. To your knowledge, can you confirm that that hat was frequently
24 worn by members of a unit who may have been referred to as the
25 White Eagles?
Page 4868
1 A. I don't know about that unit, and I didn't see them wear these
2 caps.
3 Q. Now, can you identify the person who appears in the back row,
4 second from the left? I'd like you to focus in on that person and see
5 whether you recognise that individual.
6 A. I don't know who you mean.
7 Q. The back row, the ones who are standing, the second from the
8 left.
9 A. This one over here, that's me.
10 Q. Okay. Now, what were the circumstances --
11 MR. ALARID: I'm sorry, just to let the record reflect, the
12 witness circled the face per the instructions or at least the reference
13 by the Office of the Prosecutor.
14 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
15 Q. What were the circumstances in which this photograph was taken?
16 A. Well, this came about with no planning at all involved, to be
17 truthful. There were many soldiers milling about, people were taking
18 photographs. I don't think that's a bad thing in itself for us to be
19 talking photographs of ourselves, is it.
20 Q. So your evidence is that the persons in this photograph are
21 soldiers; is that correct?
22 MR. ALARID: Objection, misstates the evidence. He specifically
23 testified that the Mitar in the photo was not conscripted due to his eye.
24 MS. MARCUS: Yes. In the previous answer he just said, There
25 were many soldiers milling about. People were taking photographs. I
Page 4869
1 don't think it's a bad thing for -- to be taking photographs of
2 ourselves, is it?
3 So I think it leads very clearly from that answer of the witness
4 that he is saying that he and the others were soldiers.
5 Q. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, I'd like to return, please, for one more moment to the top
8 photograph. -- is it true that it can't be moved before saved -- sorry,
9 could I please have this entered into evidence.
10 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P247, Your Honours.
12 MS. MARCUS: Thank you. Now could we call up, I guess, another
13 version of the original document and return to the top photograph,
14 please. Is it possible, please, to zoom in on the person on the right,
15 seated on the right as we look at it, please?
16 Q. Mr. Mitrasinovic, do you recognise the person sitting there that
17 we're zoomed in on?
18 A. Yes, that's me.
19 Q. I'd like to ask you to circle, again, on that photograph, please.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Now, with -- thank you, with the record reflecting that the
22 witness has circled the person on the right as himself, could I request
23 that this be submitted into evidence as well.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P248, Your Honours.
25 MS. MARCUS:
Page 4870
1 Q. Mr. Mitrasinovic, you did not testify in the case against
2 Mitar Vasiljevic; is that true?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Were you aware, no doubt -- you were aware no doubt that there
5 was a case against him?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were you contacted by either the Prosecution or the Defence
8 during that case?
9 MR. ALARID: Objection, relevance.
10 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, the witness has brought in evidence
11 which relates directly to evidence relating to the Drina River
12 going farther, in light of circumstances which I think we're aware of, I
13 think it's perfectly proper to ask him about why he hasn't come forward
14 sooner.
15 MR. ALARID: Then I would object as to lack of foundation as the
16 Prosecution has not established this witness's knowledge or ability to
17 even make that, nor is it the Prosecution established a duty to do so.
18 MS. MARCUS: I have simply asked him whether he was contacted by
19 the Prosecution or the Defence. If his answer is no, I can move forward
20 from there.
21 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: The witness has said that he knows
22 Mr. Vasiljevic, and I don't see a problem with this question so please
23 proceed, Ms. Marcus.
24 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Mitrasinovic, were you contacted by either the Prosecution or
Page 4871
1 by the Defence during the Vasiljevic case?
2 A. No one contacted me.
3 Q. Did you follow the evidence in that case?
4 A. No.
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 4872
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 Q. Can you name this person? If you prefer to do it in private
6 session, we can go into private session for you to name the person.
7 A. I'd prefer not to mention his name.
8 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, can I request private session?
9 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private session.
10 MS. MARCUS: Mr. Mitrasinovic, we're in private session now.
11 [Private session]
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 4873
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
12 MS. MARCUS:
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 A. Well, they said that I had been involved in this killing down
19 near the Drina
20 Q. So you just said "they said that I had been involved in this
21 killing down near the Drina
22 the person that you named in private session; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, just earlier when I asked you who told you this, you said it
25 was a man, and in private session, the person whose name you revealed is
Page 4874
1 a woman. Can you clarify that discrepancy?
2 A. Well, a friend could be male or female.
3 Q. So you're saying that this is a translation problem?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, could you elaborate a little bit on what specifically you
6 were told? So you said that she had said you were involved in this
7 killing down by the Drina
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 4875
1 (redacted)
2 A. No, she didn't say that. She just said that I had been named.
3 Q. So Mr. Mitrasinovic, is it your evidence that you were not
4 involved at all in the Drina River
5 Mitar Vasiljevic and Milan
6 A. Most certainly not. It is clear where I was. Had I done that, I
7 would have been ashamed of myself and needless to say, I could have never
8 travelled through Gorazde or Sarajevo
9 there. I share a coffee with Muslims in Sarajevo, in Gorazde, all over
10 the place, in fact.
11 Q. So your evidence is, in fact, that you were never even a member
12 of Milan Lukic's group in spite of the fact that you appear together with
13 him in these photographs; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So you were, in fact -- your evidence is that you were not with
16 Milan Lukic at all on the 7th of June of 1992 carrying your automatic
17 rifle; is that correct?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Your evidence is that you did not abduct -- did not participate
20 in the abductions of seven Bosnian Muslim together with Milan Lukic on
21 that day; is that correct?
22 A. That's right, I never participated.
23 Q. You did not drive down in one of two cars with Milan Lukic to the
24 Vilina Vlas hotel with these seven Bosnian Muslim detainees on the 7th of
25 June of 1992; is that your evidence?
Page 4876
1 A. That is my evidence, and I have never actually heard of this
2 incident before.
3 Q. You did not drive down in one of those two cars with Milan Lukic
4 and Mitar Vasiljevic and the detainees to the bank of Drina River
5 that true?
6 A. That is true.
7 Q. And you did not take part in a conversation regarding the manner
8 of how to shoot those detainees; is that your evidence?
9 A. Of course that is my evidence.
10 Q. And you did not fire at these seven men killing five of them; is
11 that your evidence?
12 A. It is.
13 Q. And you did not comment that somebody was still alive, nor did
14 you fire a second time on the bodies to make sure they were dead; is that
15 your evidence?
16 A. Yes, I wasn't there, and I don't know what happened.
17 Q. If the Chamber were to request of you proof of where you were on
18 that day, would you be able to provide such proof?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So where precisely were you on the 7th of June of 1992?
21 A. I was at Han Brdo.
22 Q. And after the 7th of June, 1992, for the remainder of June, where
23 were you?
24 A. We were up at the plateau of Sjemensko Polje, Solila, that area
25 for the most part.
Page 4877
1 Q. Now you testified that you knew Mitar Vasiljevic. Did you know
2 his family as well?
3 A. Yes, I knew his wife.
4 Q. Did you ever engage in military operations with Mitar Vasiljevic?
5 A. No, never.
6 Q. Mr. Mitrasinovic, I'm going to ask you about several names. I'm
7 going to ask you simply one or two questions about a few individuals,
8 whether or not you knew them.
9 Do you know someone named Ratomir Simsic?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know someone named Dusko Vasiljevic?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know someone named Ljubisa Vasiljevic?
14 A. No.
15 Q. How about Jovan Lipovac?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know someone named Dobrisav Lipovac?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you know a man named Zoran Mitrasinovic?
20 A. Zoran is a relative of mine.
21 Q. Specifically what relationship is he to you?
22 A. Well, his father and my father were children of two brothers.
23 Q. Do you have knowledge of him being a member of Milan Lukic's
24 group in 1992?
25 A. No.
Page 4878
1 Q. Mr. Mitrasinovic, is it your assertion here today that the
2 Drina River
3 A. I said I'd never heard about that before to the effect that this
4 happened and Drina River
5 Q. So your evidence is that you do not know anything about the
6 incident of the killing of seven Bosnian Muslim men on the 7th of June,
7 1992, at the Drina River
8 A. I really had nothing to do with that. I don't know.
9 Q. Well I didn't ask you in that question whether you had anything
10 to do with it. I asked you whether you knew anything. So the question
11 was: Is it your evidence that you do not know anything about that
12 killing. You never heard of that killing.
13 A. My assertion is I don't know, and I've never heard of it. That's
14 what I meant.
15 Q. So I suppose it follows from that that you don't know anything
16 about Mitar Vasiljevic's involvement in the Drina River
17 7th of June, 1992; is that correct?
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the answer.
19 MS. MARCUS:
20 Q. Could you please kindly repeat your answer, the interpreter
21 didn't catch it.
22 A. I don't know that he was involved.
23 Q. And therefore, it also flows logically from that answer that you
24 do not have any information about whether or not Milan Lukic was involved
25 in the killings at the Drina River
Page 4879
1 correct?
2 A. I really don't know.
3 Q. Now, it must have made you quite angry to find out that you had
4 been named in connection with this killing; is that correct?
5 A. Well, you know what it's like when they pin something on you, and
6 you have nothing to do with it, obviously they must be hostile, their
7 intensions must be hostile. It is for the sake of my friends, my family
8 and my friends that I work with over in Montenegro that I'm here today to
9 explain all of this.
10 Q. So you clearly had quite a strong reaction to these serious
11 accusations; isn't that right?
12 A. Of course. Facing the same allegations, I don't think you would
13 feel neutral about it either, would you?
14 Q. Did you ever consider taking action upon that anger?
15 MR. ALARID: Objection, vague.
16 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I will allow the question.
17 MS. MARCUS:
18 Q. My question was: You were clearly very angry. Did you ever
19 consider taking any action based upon that anger?
20 A. No, but I'm actually considering a lawsuit against
21 Mitar Vasiljevic for libel, slander.
22 Q. Do you know Mr. Vasiljevic's wife and children?
23 A. I don't know his children. I do know his wife. She's a distant
24 relation.
25 Q. When was the last time you saw Mitar Vasiljevic's wife?
Page 4880
1 A. I don't remember. I've been in Montenegro for quite some time.
2 I hardly ever go back. I go once a month to see my parents, and then I
3 go straight back; therefore, I probably haven't seen her in a while.
4 Q. When you say "a while," could you please be a little more
5 specific? Has it been a few months, more an a year, longer than that
6 since the last time you saw Mitar Vasiljevic's wife?
7 A. Must be over four years.
8 Q. Mr. Mitrasinovic, who was it who first contacted you about being
9 a witness in this case?
10 MR. ALARID: Asked and answered.
11 MS. MARCUS: I'd like to clarify precisely how many times the
12 witness was contacted and precisely by whom, I think that I can go into
13 that in a little bit more depth in which it was led in chief.
14 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes, please proceed, Ms. Marcus. And I
15 have a question here too about the gender of the person that phoned
16 because maybe we need some clarification about the transcript and the
17 translation, whether it was a man or a woman because when I read line --
18 page 53, line 2, I was in Podgorica, a man phoned me and told me, et
19 cetera.
20 So is there confusion about the gender of the person who phoned?
21 Maybe you want to clarify that with the interpretation section.
22 MS. MARCUS: Thank you very much, Your Honours. Perhaps I can
23 ask the witness again.
24 Q. I asked you this before, Mr. Mitrasinovic, and the question that
25 Your Honour has posed is about your assertion about that there was a man
Page 4881
1 that phoned you when you were in Podgorica, and then later on, you gave
2 the name of a woman. Can you clarify, please, who it was, exactly, who
3 called you, and why you first mentioned the person as a man and later
4 changed your testimony to refer to that person as a woman?
5 A. Well, to be quite frank, my brother had heard this from someone
6 and then he informed me. It was later that Jelena Rasic called me, asked
7 about my whereabouts, and asked me to make a statement, which I think
8 should be here somewhere, a copy of the statement that I gave her.
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 A. It was first my brother who told me and then when Jelena came to
14 see me to give a statement that was certified in the Constitution Court
15 of Montenegro
16 Q. Could you tell us the name of your brother, please?
17 MR. ALARID: Objection, relevance.
18 MS. MARCUS: He's mentioning the name of his brother as the
19 person who informed him, and I think it's quite relevant.
20 MR. ALARID: Objection relevance. I'll ask you to explain your
21 relevance. This doesn't go to the truth of the matters, sir, of the
22 allegations of 7 June 1992
23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I will allow the question. I don't see
24 a problem with it. Please go ahead.
25 MS. MARCUS:
Page 4882
1 Q. Could you tell us the name of your brother, please,
2 Mr. Mitrasinovic.
3 A. Milovan.
4 Q. Now, I'd like to go back to something you were saying and that
5 returns me actually to the questions that I was just asking you about how
6 you were contacted about being a witness in this case.
7 You said that Jelena Rasic contacted you and that you gave a
8 statement which was certified in the Constitutional Court of Montenegro;
9 is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell us exactly when that statement -- when you gave that
12 statement?
13 A. I don't know exactly. It was some time in the fall.
14 Q. So you testified that Jelena Rasic came to Montenegro and that
15 the statement was signed there; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was there anybody else present with you and Jelena Rasic when you
18 signed that statement?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Is that the first time you met with somebody -- with a member of
21 the Milan Lukic Defence team?
22 A. Yes, the first time.
23 Q. And did you know Jelena Rasic before that meeting with her?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Now, the statement that you provided and that you signed, was it
Page 4883
1 a typed statement that you signed or a handwritten statement or what kind
2 of a statement was it that you signed?
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was typed, I think. It was
5 typed. Typewritten.
6 MS. MARCUS:
7 Q. So did you meet with Jelena once at that time or did you meet
8 with her more than once?
9 A. Just once, just that one time in Podgorica.
10 Q. Now, did she have some kind of a computer or a typewriter or some
11 typing instrument with her during that meeting?
12 A. I think that she had a laptop computer.
13 Q. So this statement that you signed, was that something that Jelena
14 provided to you during that meeting?
15 A. The statement was about whether I knew Milan Lukic, and normally
16 I said that I did not know Milan Lukic, and that we only came to know one
17 another towards the end of the war, just that.
18 Q. Now, you said the statement was about whether you knew
19 Milan Lukic, so is that the statement that Jelena presented to you when
20 you met her on that day?
21 A. Yes, only that.
22 Q. So Jelena Rasic came to you and presented you with a typed
23 statement; is that your evidence?
24 A. Yes, and it was authenticated at the Constitutional Court of
25 Montenegro
Page 4884
1 Q. So did she read to you the contents of that statement?
2 A. Yes, she did.
3 Q. Now, you said it was in the fall, can you any more specific about
4 the date on which that statement was signed?
5 A. I don't know. I do not remember the precise date.
6 Q. Did you retain a copy of that statement?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Were you shown that statement during the proofing sessions with
9 the defence team before testifying today?
10 A. No, I wasn't.
11 Q. Now, after that meeting with Jelena Rasic where you were given a
12 statement to sign, did you meet with the Milan Lukic Defence team any
13 other time prior to coming to The Hague?
14 MR. ALARID: Objection, relevance.
15 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I think the number of times that the
16 witness has met with the Milan Lukic Defence team and who he met with is
17 quite relevant to this line of questioning.
18 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I'll allow the question.
19 MS. MARCUS:
20 Q. Between the time that you signed that statement that Jelena Rasic
21 gave to you and you came to The Hague
22 with members of the Milan Lukic Defence team?
23 A. No, not until this morning.
24 Q. Mr. Mitrasinovic, it is true, isn't it, that you were involved in
25 an incident involving the kidnapping and killing of 20 Bosnian Muslim
Page 4885
1 civilians in Strpce in 1993; is that true?
2 A. This is also something they tried to pin on me, but I have given
3 a statement. There were judges from Montenegro, I gave this statement in
4 which all that I said is written down.
5 Q. But your colleague Nebojsa Ranisavljevic was prosecuted and
6 convicted and sentenced to 15 years for his participation in that
7 abduction and killing of 20 Bosnian Muslims in collaboration with
8 Milan Lukic in the higher court in Bijelo Polje in Montenegro; you are
9 aware of that, are you not?
10 A. I read about it in the media because I was in Serbia at that
11 time.
12 Q. Now, are you aware that your alleged involvement in those crimes
13 was discussed during that trial and in the judgement?
14 A. I did not understand the question.
15 Q. The question was: Are you aware that your alleged involvement in
16 those crimes at Strpce was discussed during that trial and in the
17 judgement in that case?
18 A. I'm not aware of it. I was not referred to there.
19 Q. Are you aware that there was extensive evidence led in that case
20 of Milan Lukic's involvement in that abduction and killing?
21 A. I don't know about that being the case. I was not there when
22 that happened. I was in Serbia
23 Q. Mr. Mitrasinovic, I'd like to put to you the Prosecution's case.
24 Now, it's the Prosecution's case, first of all, that you were, in fact, a
25 member of Milan Lukic's group in 1992; do you understand what I'm saying?
Page 4886
1 A. I was not a member.
2 Q. It's also the Prosecution's case that the reason that you came
3 here was simply to exculpate yourself from criminal prosecution. Do you
4 understand what I'm saying?
5 A. No, I did not understand it.
6 Q. The Prosecution submits to you that the only reason you have come
7 here purely is to exculpate yourself from criminal responsibility in
8 connection with the Drina River
9 A. That is why I'm here, to, as I have said, clear my name of all
10 these things being ascribed to me.
11 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honours. No further questions.
12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Ms. Marcus.
13 Mr. Alarid.
14 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Alarid:
16 Q. Sir, when you gave the statement, how long was it?
17 A. What statement do you mean?
18 Q. This one you signed in Montenegro
19 A. Well, it is a brief statement, just a couple of sentences.
20 Q. In there, there was no background or details surrounding any of
21 the incidents of 1992?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, you -- you spoke a little bit about the uniforms worn at the
24 time, and you were asked with regard to the uniforms of the police.
25 Would it be fair that both the military and VRS as well as the police
Page 4887
1 wore camouflage?
2 A. Well, they had the camouflage uniforms and also olive-drab
3 uniforms. As I said, it was the very start so not everybody had
4 uniforms, in fact, so there you have it.
5 Q. And you were asked a question with regard to active combat in the
6 area around Visegrad; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was this a war between countries or was this a civil war?
9 A. It was a civil war.
10 MR. ALARID: No further questions. And Your Honour, at this time
11 I would tender into evidence the statement of the witness given with
12 regards to the train kidnapping, ERN 0646-6387.
13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you.
14 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, the Prosecution also requests
15 provision of that statement that was given to the Milan Lukic Defence
16 team and depending upon what's in it, we would like to see that if
17 possible before the witness leaves in case there is any matter that needs
18 to be covered. We have not -- we received an e-mail from Mr. Ivetic on
19 the 18th of February which asserts that the following witnesses do not
20 have witness statements. So now, obviously, it's clear that this witness
21 does have a witness statement and again we have not received it.
22 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honour, to respond, this morning in
23 proofing when I met this gentleman, we asked him simply that; and we were
24 not in possession and that's why I asked him how long it was and whatnot,
25 and what details were ascribed to it. And, simply, I mean, we looked for
Page 4888
1 it and could not find it. I'm assuming it was a one-page document, and
2 could I not find it, and given that the depth of it, and the fact that we
3 were not going to tender a single statement as a 92 bis or whatnot; you
4 know, I -- we did our best though, Your Honour, we did our best. Thank
5 you.
6 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, it doesn't matter how long it is. It
7 doesn't matter, it's a witness's statement.
8 MR. ALARID: I would agree to that. Simply we searched for it,
9 we searched for it, there's been some problems with the quality control
10 and that's just that.
11 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: We are going -- Ms. Marcus, to mark it
12 for identification. We are going to raise -- rise for the next break,
13 normally there is no witness after this one.
14 MR. ALARID: No.
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: So let's just see whether you wish to
16 come back after the break and to ask questions from the witness about the
17 statement --
18 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, we would have no objection to the -- if
19 we're able to locate it, the Prosecution calling on rebuttal or recalling
20 the witness or whatever the case may be.
21 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: So you would be prepared to recall the
22 witness later on?
23 MR. ALARID: I wouldn't, but we have no objection.
24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Because the witness is here. We could
25 just adjourn for half an hour. We could have a look at the statement,
Page 4889
1 and if necessary, we could come back, if not, you let us know; and we end
2 the examination of the witness here.
3 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honours. I think there is a bit of
4 confusion. There are two statements from the witness. One statement was
5 a statement that the witness gave in the context of the Strpce train
6 kidnapping. That was what, in fact, what we provided to the Defence that
7 was used with this witness. That is not in issue.
8 MR. ALARID: And that's the one I wanted to introduce.
9 MS. MARCUS: That's the one that was being tendered. The other
10 one is the one that he testified that he gave to Jelena Rasic. That, if
11 I understand Mr. Alarid's submission, is one that Mr. Alarid does not, in
12 fact, have.
13 MR. ALARID: We attempted to locate all statements after being
14 given the information by Mr. Groome that there may be something out
15 there, and we could not find anything located in our office to this
16 witness. And when I asked him about it this morning and given the size
17 of it or whatnot, it appears to have been -- could have been one page, of
18 two sentences' length, and I'm not sure what happened to it. I
19 apologise.
20 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: So there is no objection to the
21 acceptance of the statement, the first statement about the train
22 incident.
23 MS. MARCUS: There is no objection.
24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: That will be accepted into evidence and
25 then we ask the Milan Lukic Defence to try and provide the Prosecution
Page 4890
1 with the other statement. This can't be done immediately. I understand
2 that, but I would ask you to the best of your efforts to produce this
3 statement and if so, then we will have to recall the witness if the
4 Prosecution would so require.
5 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour. And if -- that means the
6 witness is free to go.
7 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, there is an important matter I'd like
8 to raise with the Chamber very briefly after the witness leaves.
9 MR. ALARID: Okay.
10 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. But we can close the evidence of
11 this witness.
12 Okay, sir.
13 MR. ALARID: I would thank the witness as well on behalf of the
14 team for journeying here to become a witness. Thank you.
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Witness, for the help that
16 you have given to the Court in this trial. It is now the end of your
17 evidence. You may go. Thank you very much.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the statement ERN 0464-4378 will
19 become Exhibit 1D113.
20 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Ms. Marcus.
24 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we please go into
25 private session?
Page 4891
1 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private, please.
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8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.48 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of March,
10 2009 at 9.00 a.m.
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