Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6688

 1                           Friday, 3 April 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 8.51 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole to conclude in about 20 minutes.

 7                           WITNESS:  STOJA VUJICIC [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cole:  [Continued]

10        Q.   Good morning, madam.

11        A.   Good morning.

12        Q.   I notice that when you came into court this morning you smiled at

13     Milan Lukic and he smiled at you.  Do you have founding feelings towards

14     him?

15        A.   Let me tell you, I've known him for years.  I just nodded hello.

16     That's all.

17        Q.   Are you aware --

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Perhaps you should smile at Mr. Cole and then I

19     would ask if you have fond feelings for Mr. Cole.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.  A smile is a greeting.

21     At least for me.

22             MR. COLE:

23        Q.   Yes.  Are you aware of the horrendous crimes with which

24     Milan Lukic has been charged in relation to Visegrad in 1992?

25        A.   To tell you the truth, I have not seen anything.  I've only heard

Page 6689

 1     people talk.  I have not eye-witnessed anything myself.

 2        Q.   Now, you testified yesterday that Dragan Tomic was the police

 3     commander in Visegrad in June 1992; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you were shown some police payroll records yesterday from

 6     June 1992.  Do you recall that?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   Now, I can tell you that the name at the top of the list, this is

 9     to save time, was Risto Perisic.  You know that name, I suggest, and can

10     you confirm that he was in charge --overall charge of the police station

11     in 1992?

12        A.   Risto Perisic was the head of the police station, whereas

13     Dragan Tomic was the commander of the police station.

14        Q.   Now, during the course of your work, of course you submitted

15     various documents and reports to your superiors including Risto Perisic

16     and Dragan Tomic, in 1992, didn't you?

17        A.   Yes, well, they were our superiors.

18        Q.   And of course, you received various documents from these men

19     during the course of your work also, didn't you?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you would have been familiar with -- then with the signatures

22     of Risto Perisic and Dragan Tomic in 1992; correct?

23        A.   Well, I can roughly remember those signatures if you would show

24     them to me now.

25        Q.   All right.

Page 6690

 1             MR. COLE:  Could the witness be shown document 1D25, please.

 2        Q.   All right.  Can you see that on the screen there before you now?

 3     I'm glad you brought your glasses with you.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   All right.  Madam, this document was produced into evidence by

 6     the Milan Lukic Defence.  I'm going to ask you firstly, can you tell us

 7     whether that signature appears to be that of Risto Perisic, as you

 8     remember it?

 9        A.   This is something like he normally signed.  I sign all the time a

10     little differently from the previous time, but this looks like his

11     signature.

12        Q.   All right.  The heading of the document, which indicates the

13     station of public security Visegrad, does that appear to be the style of

14     heading of documents back in 1992?

15        A.   Well, the public security station was the official name of our

16     organisation.  At that time it was the public security station.

17     Nowadays, it's the police station.  You have to believe me when I tell

18     you they changed the heading about a hundred times.

19        Q.   All right.  Let's do it this way.  Have a look at the stamp also.

20     So taking into account the signature, the stamp, contents, and the

21     heading, does that appear to be a genuine document from the police

22     station in 1992?

23        A.   The chief of the station had one stamp.  We at the desk issuing

24     IDs had a stamp of our own.  I can't remember them all, but we had all

25     sorts of various stamps with various numbers at the police station.  I

Page 6691

 1     couldn't remember them all.

 2        Q.   Could I just ask if you could assist by, if you can, keeping your

 3     answers short because we have a very short time here.  It's not a

 4     criticism, but if you could assist in that way.

 5             My question is having taking into account the total contents of

 6     the document, does it appear to you to be a genuine police document from

 7     1992?  I'm not asking you to be categorical.

 8        A.   I know stamps like this existed with all these markings and

 9     emblems.  As for the rest ...

10        Q.   Does it seem to be correct to you?  Is there anything about it

11     that indicates it's not genuine to you?

12        A.   No, there's nothing, as far as I can see.

13        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

14             MR. COLE:  I'm now going to ask that you be shown document

15     1D22-0174.  There's a B/C/S and there's an English translation.

16             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honour, just for the record, if these

17     documents are going to be the basis of the expert rebuttal, the

18     Prosecution is tendering, I just want for the record that the Prosecution

19     is tendering documents that have not been tendered by the Defence.

20             MR. COLE:

21        Q.   Yes, can you see the document there in front of you now?  Could

22     you just have a look at that, please and could we have the English which

23     is 1D--

24        A.   I can see it in English only.

25             MR. COLE:  Sorry.  The English is 1D22-0175.  And the B/C/S

Page 6692

 1     1D22-0174.  That was the number I gave.

 2        Q.   Madam, can you quickly have a look at that document in B/C/S

 3     there.  The heading, the content, the signature, and the stamp.  You'll

 4     see it's dated June 13, 1992.  Does that appear, once again, to be the

 5     signature of Risto Perisic?

 6        A.   As far as I remember, this looks like his signature.  It could

 7     very well be his signature, but on that day, the 13th of June, I did not

 8     work.  But that's his signature, to the best of my recollection.

 9        Q.   And -- thank you.

10             MR. COLE:  Could I ask that that document be introduced into

11     evidence, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P320, Your Honours.

14             MR. COLE:  Could I ask that the witness now be shown document ID

15     1D22-0176.

16        Q.   Yes, madam, can you have a look at that document before you,

17     please, in particular the the signature in the B/C/S version.  And just

18     if you quickly, you confirm once again that that appears to be the

19     signature of Risto Perisic on this document dated 14 June, 1992?

20        A.   I have to tell you again I wasn't working then, but as far as I

21     remember his signature, this looks like one.

22             MR. COLE:  Could I ask Your Honours that this be introduced into

23     evidence.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

25             MR. IVETIC:  [Microphone not activated] ... same comment for the

Page 6693

 1     record.  That --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Counsel Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Same comment for the record as to the fact that the

 4     Prosecution is now tendering documents that cannot be the basis for them

 5     calling the expert handwriting analyst for documents that were not in

 6     evidence prior to the Court's previous ruling.

 7             MR. COLE:  Yes, Your Honours, just for the record, the documents

 8     that are now being produced were provided to the Prosecution by the

 9     Milan Lukic Defence on the 19th of July, 2008, directly to the

10     Prosecution on that date as part of, I think, the Rule 67 requirements.

11             Madam, could the witness please be shown document ID 1D22-0178.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  The previous document is admitted at

13     Exhibit P321, Your Honours.

14        Q.   Yes, can you see the document before you on the screen now, the

15     B/C/S version?  It's a document with the date June 15, 1992?

16        A.   I see it.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And can you confirm once again that the date -- the

18     signature on this document appears to be that of Risto Perisic as you

19     knew it?

20        A.   I have to tell you the same thing again, it looks to me like the

21     signature of my superior, Risto Perisic, to the best of my recollection.

22             MR. COLE:  Thank you.  Could this document be introduced into he

23     had, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, just for the record, the same comment

Page 6694

 1     that this document was not tendered previously by the Milan Lukic Defence

 2     into evidence.  And therefore that this be given into account given the

 3     Court's prior ruling as to the rebuttal handwriting expert.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P322, Your Honours.

 5             MR. COLE:  Thank you.  And one final document for you, madam.

 6     Could the witness please be shown document 1D22-0180?

 7        Q.   All right.  On the right-hand part of the screen is a document

 8     dated the 5th of June, 1992, headed up station of public security

 9     Visegrad, and the signature at the bottom is under the name Dragan Tomic.

10     Can you have a look at the signature, please.

11        A.   Tomic, yes.

12        Q.   And does that appear to be the signature of Dragan Tomic, as you

13     knew it?

14        A.   Yes, that's the way he signed his name.  Again, I did not work in

15     this period, but this looks like his signature.

16             MR. COLE:  Yes, Your Honours.  Could that be introduced into

17     evidence, please.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Same comment for the record.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P323, Your Honours.

21             MR. COLE:

22        Q.   Now, madam, just another area.  I only have a short time left to

23     ask you a couple of questions.  You talked yesterday about a manual card

24     system in operation at the police station prior to 2003 and how you

25     checked the information on those cards; is that correct?

Page 6695

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Did you say on the back of the cards would be details of change

 3     of residence of different persons if, for example, someone moved from

 4     Visegrad to Gorazde, it would be noted down on the card?

 5        A.   Yes, there would be a date for the change of residence and the

 6     location.

 7        Q.   And did you personally -- were you personally involved in making

 8     that type of notation on the back of cards?

 9        A.   I was not the only one working on the ID card desk.  It could

10     have been anything, but every person would follow the same procedure, as

11     I did.

12        Q.   Right.  So you were one of the persons who was involved writing

13     on the backs of these cards, do I have that right?

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   And were you doing that in 1992, to these cards?

16        A.   In 1992 there were very few changes of residences, if any, in the

17     short time that I worked.

18        Q.   Were you involved in writing on these cards in 1992, 1993, 1994

19     and 1995?

20        A.   Well, whenever a party came to deregister themselves for a

21     certain address, such a notation would be made before and after 1992.

22        Q.   Were you doing this type of work during those years, making notes

23     on the back of these cards from time to time?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now --

Page 6696

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   Now, you know that before the war, so 1991, the population of

 3     Visegrad was something like 63 percent Muslim, you would agree with that?

 4        A.   38, yes, something like that.  60.

 5        Q.   And you would agree that the population there now in Visegrad is

 6     over 90 percent Bosnian Serb, wouldn't you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   All right.  Now, that obviously means that many, many Muslim

 9     people left or are no longer in Visegrad from 1991; and I'm going to ask

10     you if you wrote down the details on these cards of the hundreds of

11     Bosnian Muslims who were expelled in convoys or who fled over the hills

12     from Visegrad in 1992?

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Umm, I guess I would object to foundation as to,

15     umm, her knowledge of this, and I believe it misstates her prior evidence

16     as to how the details on the cards were to be recorded, at what instance.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What was your question, Mr. Cole?

18             MR. COLE:  I believe it was, did you write down the details of

19     the hundreds of Bosnian Muslims expelled in convoys or who fled over the

20     hills from Visegrad in 1992.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, that's a fairly straightforward question.

22     Either she did or she didn't.  What is the answer, Witness?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If somebody showed up at my office

24     and asked to report a change of address, that was done.  I could not have

25     done anything outside of that office.

Page 6697

 1             MR. COLE:

 2        Q.   So the answer is, in fact, that where people were expelled in

 3     convoys, no details of those persons would be entered on any cards, would

 4     it?

 5        A.   Well, nobody reported to me that they were leaving.  How could I

 6     know otherwise?  A party has to come to my office and report that they

 7     are leaving for me to write down the details.

 8        Q.   So did you note if someone came to your office that certain

 9     persons were deceased?  You have the details of a person and it's

10     reported to you that someone is deceased, would that sort of information

11     be included on the back of one of these cards?

12        A.   Yes, but that report would be written on the card only upon the

13     report of the registrar of births and deaths.  They would provide a

14     certificate of birth or death and based on that report I would write on

15     the back of certain files that a given person was deceased on such and

16     such a day, et cetera.

17        Q.   All right.  I'm going to ask you this then, in 1992 we he know

18     you were working at the Visegrad police station.  Do you recall noting

19     down on any cards details of Bosnian Muslim persons who had been

20     slaughtered on the streets of Visegrad?

21        A.   I have to tell you again, I cannot note down that somebody died,

22     whatever the cause, before I receive from the registrar's office an

23     official letter confirming that somebody was deceased.  Only then can I

24     write it on the card, or it has to be a paper from the hospital.  It

25     cannot be done based on hearsay.  There has to be an official document

Page 6698

 1     confirming somebody's death.

 2        Q.   You are well aware, aren't you, living in Visegrad in 1992, that

 3     there were countless murders of innocent persons on the the streets of

 4     Visegrad that year, aren't you?

 5        A.   I was not an eye-witness, but I heard people on both sides were

 6     killed.  Although I did not eye-witness any of these killings.

 7        Q.   Those killings weren't recorded on any cards at the police

 8     station, were they?

 9             MR. ALARID:  Objection, Your Honour, assumes facts not in

10     evidence, and relevance.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Are you able to answer that, Witness?  Are you

12     able to answer that, Witness?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I keep telling you one and the same

14     thing, I cannot note anybody's death unless I get an official report from

15     the registrar's office recording births, deaths, and marriages.  That is

16     the only paper certifying somebody's death in such a way that it can be

17     recorded on the personnel file of a person that we keep.  So there has to

18     be a written trace from the institution that is competent.

19             MR. COLE:

20        Q.   So the short answer is that you didn't record any details of

21     these murders on the streets on the cards?

22             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, objection.  Misstates the witness's

23     testimony.  The witness testimony is what it is.  If Mr. Cole doesn't

24     like it, that's too bad, but he cannot change her testimony.  It's on the

25     record.  He should be asked to move on.

Page 6699

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, move on, Mr. Cole.

 2             MR. COLE:  Yes, I will.  Just about finished, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   You told the Court yesterday about Milan Lukic, seeing him at the

 4     police station from time to time; do you recall that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Were there beatings of interrogated persons going on at the

 7     police station as far as you were aware?

 8        A.   I did not see anything like that.  I would not have been able to

 9     see anything like that.  I had my own office.  I didn't see anything like

10     that going on at the police station.

11        Q.   Well, you saw Milan Lukic entering and leaving, did you see

12     Bosnian Muslim persons being brought into the police station or being

13     taken out of the police station after being interrogated or beaten?

14        A.   No, because I have my own office and that's where I sat.  I could

15     not see everything that was going on at the station.  I did not see any

16     such things.  I was not an eye-witness to anything of the kind.

17        Q.   And finally, I'm going to ask you, was a colleague of yours, a

18     police colleague of yours in 1992 a man called Boban Simsic?

19        A.   Yes.  Yes.

20        Q.   Now, he is one of the police officers from that time who has been

21     convicted in a court in Bosnia-Herzegovina, isn't he?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   How many others are you aware of, police officers from that time,

24     who were also convicted?

25             MR. ALARID:  Objection, relevance.

Page 6700

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What is the relevance, Mr. Cole?

 2             MR. COLE:  In fact, I'm happy to leave it at that point, sir.

 3     Your Honour.  I don't have any further questions.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  I'll be brief.

 6                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 7        Q.   Good morning again, madam.  We are almost done there.  I

 8     apologise.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  If I could have P214 on the screen.  Yes, P214.

10        Q.   And, madam, while we were waiting for this document, yesterday

11     the Prosecution asked you about a list of a payment list that they had

12     introduced into evidence for the month of June, 1992.  And you indicated

13     that during that time someone else was substituting for you at your place

14     of employment and your job.  Do you recall the name of the individual

15     whom you had mentioned yesterday was working in your position in June of

16     1992 before you returned to work?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And for the record, what was the name of that person who was

19     working at your job in June of 1992 before you returned to work?

20        A.   Jela Rosic.

21        Q.   And yesterday, madam, you directed Mr. Cole's attention to the

22     item number 20 on this list, which next to your name has the words "Jela"

23     next to it.  I would direct your attention to the signatures on the

24     right-hand side for this entry, and do you recognise the signature; and

25     can you read the signature associated with this entry for yourself in

Page 6701

 1     June of 1992?  Is that your signature or somebody else's?

 2        A.   I remained on the list of personnel, but I was temporarily absent

 3     and the lady who stood in for me received my salary.  I did not receive

 4     that salary.  It was received by the lady who was not registered as

 5     personnel, and, of course, this is not my signature.

 6        Q.   And for the record, you're recorded as saying "this is not my

 7     signature."  Did you also say whose signature you believed it was?

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14        Q.   Okay.  Now, ma'am, the English translation of this document does

15     not have copies of the signatures.  It just says that they are signed.

16     So could you make out the Serbian signature, what the signature says,

17     what letters are there so we can have that into the record so that those

18     of us who cannot read the Serbian version of this document, the Serbian

19     original, we can know what name is signed under item number 20

20     Stoja Vujicic, for the month of June 1992 for the signature who you've

21     said was not your signature.  What name is there listed in the signature

22     block?

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6702

 1   (redacted)

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, madam, for clearing that up.  Madam, I

 3     have no further questions for you.  I thank you for coming, and I'm sorry

 4     I had to bring you here under the circumstances via subpoena; but I thank

 5     you for your assistance in get the truth of this matter.

 6             Thank you, Your Honours, no further questions.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, that concludes your evidence.  We thank

 8     you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.  You may now leave.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer].

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We are moving now into rebuttal, and,

13     Mr. Alarid, my information is that you would still have one witness that

14     the Chamber is allowing you to call?  VG-61.

15             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.  And I believe we use a pseudonym

16     because it's easier than pronouncing the names, but that witness does not

17     have protective measures.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see.  Okay.  Yes, yes.  And the time-limits

19     have been set by the Chamber for the rebuttal, and I propose to apply

20     them quite strictly.  Half an hour each party with 10 minutes for

21     re-examination.  Is it Mr. Groome or Ms. Sartorio?  I understand there

22     would be a problem with the confidentiality of some documents for the

23     first witness?

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'll let -- there's a bigger problem.

25     Perhaps we could deal with that first.  Mr. De Witt just called me

Page 6703

 1     outside into the hallway saying that the witness, next witness -- maybe

 2     perhaps, Your Honour, we should go into private session.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, private session

 4            [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6704











11  Pages 6704-6708 redacted. Private session.















Page 6709

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.  Please

12     read the declaration.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VG-146

16   (redacted)

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  You may sit and you may begin,

18     Ms. Sartorio.  Is this private session?

19             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, you granted face and voice distortion

20     and pseudonym, but we are in private session for the beginning.

21     Your Honour, may the court usher please hands the document to the

22     witness.  I understand that the Registrar has another document for me.

23     Okay.  Mr. A.  Okay.

24                           Examination by Ms. Sartorio:

25        Q.   Good morning, sir.

Page 6710

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   In front of you is a document, and I would like you to tell us is

 3     your name at the top of the document?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And is that your date of birth beneath your name?

 6        A.   I don't see any date here.

 7        Q.   I am sorry, sir, I apologise.  Could you please write your date

 8     on the top of the sheet underneath your name?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And would you also please sign right next to your name, please.

11     Just sign your name.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Now, sir, you will see that next to your name there is a number,

14     two letters, it says VG-146.  Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   That is a pseudonym that the Court has allowed you to have, so we

17     don't use your name in court.  So you will be referred to as VG-146.  Do

18     you understand that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And if you look down to the next part of the document, you will

21     see the name of a person and you'll see a number VG-145.  Are you

22     familiar with that person?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I would ask that if you are going refer to that person during

25     your testimony, that you use the number 145, VG-145.  Would you do that?

Page 6711

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And the same with the person below that name.  There's another

 3     person's name.  If you know that person, and if you are going to mention

 4     that person's name, would you please use the pseudonym A rather than the

 5     person's name.  Do you understand that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I'll just ask a few background sessions before we come out of

 8     closed session.

 9             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, may the document be presented to the

10     Defence and to Your Honours and then admitted into evidence.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P324 under seal, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

14             MR. CEPIC:  I'm just wondering, Your Honour about one technical

15     details.  We have the full name and the last name of this witness in

16     transcript, page 22, line 9, so should we redact that.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

18             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

19             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you for noting that.

20        Q.   Sir, I'm going to be asking you a couple of questions about your

21     personal life in closed session, and then we'll come out of closed

22     session; but I want you know that the Court has granted you as I said, a

23     pseudonym and also face and voice distortion so that anyone watching this

24     broadcast will not be able to identify who you are.  Do you understand

25     that?

Page 6712











11  Page 6712 redacted. Private session.















Page 6713

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, since coming to The Hague yesterday, have you spoken

 8     with anyone other than the victim and witness unit?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Okay?

11             MS. SARTORIO:  May we come out of closed session now,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

16             MS. SARTORIO:

17        Q.   Now, sir, in connection with the present case in which you were

18     testifying, did you -- were you contacted by anyone, and if so by whom

19     and when?

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25        A.   I apologise.  Could I have a piece of paper with the pseudonym on

Page 6714

 1     it, because I forget.  I've already forgotten, as a matter of fact.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, yes, with regard to -- yes, I am asking you

 3     about the phone call from VG --

 4        A.   VG-145 came to Rogica [phoen] and told me to pop by the next day.

 5     He said there might be money in it for me because back then in Sarajevo

 6     we didn't have any work or anything.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us approximately when VG-145 contacted you?

 8        A.   I don't know exactly, it was a month or two before new year's

 9     eve.

10        Q.   Okay.  Did you know VG-145 before this time?

11        A.   Yes, he was a lad who was living in the same town as me.

12     Visegrad.

13        Q.   Now, would you consider yourself to be friends or just

14     acquaintances?

15        A.   Acquaintances.  I knew him by sight.  It was a small town and

16     everyone knew each other's faces.  We weren't friends.  We were just

17     passing acquaintances.  We weren't socialising or anything.

18        Q.   Now, when he told you to pop by the next day, did you pop by, and

19     if so, where did you go to?

20        A.   Yes, I did, to a cafe.  That's where I went.  There was another

21     lad there, most probably it was MRA.  They ordered some glasses of wine

22     for me.  They told me they would be off and back soon enough.  They were

23     on their way to get my ID.  They have said there was something for me to

24     sign and that I would be given some money.

25        Q.   Okay.  Now, you said MRA.  If you are referring to the person on

Page 6715

 1     that sheet, it's Mr. A?

 2        A.   No, no.  MRA was there, but this other man contacted me, VG-145.

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   VG-145, how shall I put it, contacted me and instructed me as to

 5     the what, the where, and how.  MRA was just there, he didn't have

 6     anything to do with it.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, so you said that at the cafe they ordered

 8     some glasses of wine and told me they would be off and back soon.  Now,

 9     did they, in fact, leave, and if so --

10        A.   Yes, and they took my ID.  They said that I should wait up and

11     that it would soon be returned.

12        Q.   And did they return to you and if so do you recall how long they

13     were gone?

14        A.   Yes, they did.  I can't say how soon exactly.  They took about

15     half an hour.  Perhaps 45 minutes.  It might have been less, give or take

16     a quarter, about 40 minutes.

17        Q.   And when they returned, then what happened next?

18        A.   Once they were back, one of them remained in a cafe.  They were

19     quite merry.  They looked happy, when they were back.  Them VG-145 took

20     me to the municipal hall.  There was a girl over there, I wasn't much

21     interested or anything, I just wanted to see the job wrapped up.  But

22     this girl handed over some paperwork to me, she said we had to sign five

23     copies of something just to finish the deal.  I'm not sure if this was a

24     regular procedure for something being done at the municipal hall, but

25     this needed signing in order to be certified for it to become a regular

Page 6716

 1     document.

 2        Q.   Did you read the document that you were given?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Did you glance at the document at all and recognise anything in

 5     the document?

 6        A.   No, I didn't even want to know.  I just wanted to see this done

 7     as soon as possible.  There were four or five sheets of paper there, or

 8     there might have been.  I just did what I had to do, we shook hands, they

 9     gave me a white envelope.  I had no idea what was in it.  We then went to

10     a restaurant.  I opened the envelope, and there was an amount of 1.000

11     German marks [as interpreted] there in 50 mark bank notes.  We split it

12     up.  And then we bought ourselves some drinks there.

13        Q.   I'd like to back up just a moment.  Now, when you went to the

14     municipality hall, you said there was a girl over there, can you tell us

15     the name of the girl, if you know, or the description of her?

16        A.   No, all I know is she was on the young side.  I think the dialect

17     she was using was not a Serbian or Bosnian dialect, it was the Ikavian

18     dialect, and she was quite tall.

19        Q.   Do you recall the colour of her hair?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Was there anyone else with this girl?

22        A.   I'm not positive.  There may have been one or two men.  One or

23     two men were with her.

24        Q.   Now, did you have any conversation with this girl or any of the

25     men before you signed the papers?

Page 6717

 1        A.   We were waiting there and she said we would be in touch.  She

 2     wanted to have my telephone number, but I just faked one and gave it to

 3     her.

 4        Q.   And did she tell you why she needed your telephone number?

 5        A.   Something along the lines of us remaining in touch.  I thought

 6     that VG-145 would be in touch again and that everything would be fine.

 7        Q.   And did you get a copy of one of these papers that you signed?

 8        A.   Yes, I did, but they took that copy away.  I'm not sure if it was

 9     VG-145 or MRA.

10        Q.   Now, back at the cafe with regards to the money -- well, first of

11     all, do you recall who handed you the envelope?

12        A.   I think it was a lad with that girl there, a young man.  I can't

13     quite remember, but I think there was a young man too.

14        Q.   And you mentioned above that when you opened the envelope there

15     was an amount of 1.000 German marks.  Are you sure they were marks or

16     were they Euros?

17             MR. ALARID:  Objection leading.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I opened the envelope when

19     VG-145 and I came to the restaurant, the one nearby.  I opened the

20     envelope.  I took the money, it was Euros, 50 Euro bank notes, 1.000

21     Euros, 50 notes.

22             MS. SARTORIO:

23        Q.   What happened to the money at that point, was it spent or divided

24     in up or what happened to it?

25        A.   We divided it up.  We each got five, 50 Euro notes and then we

Page 6718

 1     just bought ourselves drinks with that.  We bought the drinks.  We used

 2     the Euros to pay for the drinks, they paid up, and then we all parted

 3     ways.

 4        Q.   After this event, were you contacted again by the girl whom you

 5     met at the municipality building or anyone exacting on her behalf?

 6        A.   VG-145 contacted me once or twice.

 7        Q.   And what was the substance of the contact?  What were you told?

 8        A.   We spoke and then I asked him later on what had happened, and

 9     what this was all about.  He said nothing much.  We just signed the

10     document so we could cheat some people out of some money.  He said I

11     might need you again, if so, I'll be in touch and that was that as far as

12     the money was concerned on our contacts.

13        Q.   Did you ever discover what it was that you signed?

14        A.   No, I never discovered that.  I did go once to give evidence, was

15     it HR, or those people there who contacted me who brought me here, this

16     international judicial thing of yours is something, I can't find the

17     right expression.

18             MS. SARTORIO:  May the usher, would the court usher please bring

19     up ERN 06458754.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then, there was this sheet on which

21     I saw four names, three of which I memorised when I was in HR or UNHCR, I

22     can't quite remember.  I think the names were Brane Savovic,

23     Moco Mirkovic, Risto Perisic, and I can't remember the fourth name.

24             MS. SARTORIO:

25        Q.   Okay.  So you were saying there was a sheet.  Well, we have on

Page 6719

 1     the screen right now a document, sir.  And could we go to the last page

 2     of the document, please.  The signature page.

 3        A.   That's my signature.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Sir, that's your signature.  Thank you.  At the top of the

 5     page --

 6             MS. SARTORIO:  Could we go to the top of the page, please.  Go to

 7     the previous page, the bottom of the previous page now.  Okay.

 8        Q.   Sir, do you recognise -- are these the names that you just

 9     referred to in your testimony?

10        A.   Brane Savovic.  Brane Savovic.

11             MS. SARTORIO:  Could you please enlarge it.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm certain about that.

13     Zoran Sekulic, I can't read that one, Momir and Vasiljevic, Mitar, and

14     all this, Turjacanin, nothing at all.  Brane Savovic, yes, I saw that.

15             MS. SARTORIO:  I'm sorry.  Could we go to the previous page at

16     the bottom.  Okay.

17        Q.   Now, sir, is this the -- in paragraph 8, is this the

18     Brane Savovic that you just mentioned?

19        A.   Now, I don't think I quite understand what you are asking me.

20        Q.   I was asking you if this is the name of the person that you are

21     referring to when we were looking at the other page.  You kept saying

22     Brane Savovic, is this the person?

23        A.   No, I never read this.  I don't know about this or anything.

24        Q.   Okay.  Sir, did you go to school with Brane Savovic?

25        A.   No, Brane Savovic, Brane Savovic, he was a neighbour of mine and

Page 6720

 1     a basketball player.  It was Momcilo Mirkovic was a schoolmate of mine.

 2        Q.   Momcilo Mirkovic, can we go to the next page, please, so he can

 3     see that again?

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You have about 5 minutes left, Ms. Sartorio.

 5             MS. SARTORIO:  I'm almost done, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Did you go to school with any of the three people mentioned in

 7     this -- the other three people Zoran Sekulic, Mitar Vasiljevic, did you

 8     go to school with any of those people?

 9        A.   No, no.

10        Q.   Sir, were you ever a member of the Army of the BiH?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   And did you ever encounter a person by the name of

13     Ms. Turjacanin?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   And between -- around the 12th or 15th of June, were you anywhere

16     near Gorazde relocating civilians?

17        A.   No.

18             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, we ask that this document be admitted

19     in evidence.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P325 under seal, Your Honours.

22             MS. SARTORIO:

23        Q.   Now, sir, do you also, at the municipality building, do you

24     recall signing anything else?  Any type of book?

25        A.   No.

Page 6721

 1             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, may we bring up another -- one more

 2     exhibit.  This is my last question.  Maybe a few more questions.

 3        Q.   Sir, did you ever see a map or anything with regard to your

 4     statement?

 5        A.   No.

 6             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I'd like to bring up 0647 --

 7             MR. ALARID:  Objection, relevance.  He just said he didn't look

 8     at a map.  I think the Court has been privy to the pleadings.

 9             MS. SARTORIO:  I'm not bringing up a map.  It's 06476566.

10        Q.   Well, sir, do you see your name on this document anywhere?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Is your signature anywhere near this name?

13        A.   No.

14             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, we'll take the break now.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.46 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Cross-examine.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

22        Q.   Good day, sir, my name a Dan Ivetic, I'm one of the attorneys for

23     the Defence of Milan Lukic and I have some questions for you here today.

24     First of all, can you hear me okay, I saw you playing with your head set.

25     Can you hear me?

Page 6722

 1        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, first of all, sir, I'd like to ask you

 3     prior to giving a tape recorded, videotape recorded interview to the

 4     Office of the Prosecution in Sarajevo, were you advised by them of the

 5     purpose of your meeting with them?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   And when you were called in by the Prosecution in Sarajevo for

 8     purposes of taking the interview, at that time did you -- did they make

 9     any claims or threats to you that the police would come to take you in if

10     you did not agree to talk to them?

11        A.   I didn't want to come at all, but then they said if you don't

12     come, perhaps not now but somebody will come and get you to come, but I

13     didn't want to.

14        Q.   I apologise, sir, I'm waiting for the translation and the

15     transcript to catch up with your spoken Bosnian.

16             Can I take it from that then that you did not want to come and

17     that the Office of the Prosecution in Sarajevo exerted pressure on you to

18     come in for the tape recorded interview.

19        A.   Yes, I did not want to.  They were not actually unkind, but they

20     said that I will have to do it, if you understand what I mean.

21        Q.   I'm trying to understand you, sir, I'm trying to understand what

22     they did to make you overcome your initial reluctance to come speak with

23     them.  What is it that the Prosecution did, said, or offered to make you

24     overcome your reluctance to come speak with them in Sarajevo in February

25     of 2009?

Page 6723

 1        A.   They came to my apartment.  I was a bit anxious and angry, and

 2     once they came to work and they were bothering me, and I threw them out;

 3     and then my boss asked me to finish with all that otherwise I'll have to

 4     go through some court proceedings.  I mean, I can't say that they were

 5     not nice to me.  They were kind and polite, but they were ...

 6        Q.   Did you feel pressured by them to come in and consent to giving

 7     an interview?

 8        A.   I think I did, but it was not like a hundred percent pressure,

 9     but I was.  I did.

10        Q.   Now, at the time that you went in to the Sarajevo offices of the

11     Office of the Prosecution on the 17th of February, 2009, at that time did

12     they advise you that you were a suspect in a contempt investigation?

13        A.   They did not say anything about me being an accused.  They said

14     they were investigating what had happened, making an inquiry.

15        Q.   At that time were you advised that you had a right to counsel

16     before giving any statement and that any statements that you gave could

17     be used against you for Prosecution and -- Prosecution for participation

18     in contempt or an illegal scheme?

19        A.   Well, I cannot remember now, but it was all recorded on a tape.

20     This gentleman said everything would be recorded, tape recorded, and he

21     even said that I would no longer have to appear anymore.

22        Q.   Did they advise you of your right to remain silent rather than

23     incriminate yourself.

24        A.   I did not understand you.  I didn't even reckon that I was

25     accused or anything.

Page 6724

 1        Q.   Did they advise you of your right to remain silent during the

 2     interview and did they offer you an attorney that would be paid for at

 3     the expense of the Registry of the International Tribunal for the Former

 4     Yugoslavia?

 5        A.   I think they did tell me that I have the right to remain silent,

 6     but I did not really understand all that very seriously.  I didn't take

 7     it very seriously.

 8        Q.   You indicated that the -- your discussions were videotaped.  Were

 9     there any discussions outside of the videotape or can we rely upon the

10     videotape as the full record of the conversations that you had between

11     you and the staff of the Office of the Prosecution in Sarajevo?

12        A.   Well, I cannot really answer that question.  I didn't even listen

13     to that tape.  But I saw them putting tapes in.

14        Q.   Was a copy of the tape given to you?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Were you ever contacted by anyone from the Bosnian government,

17     Bosnian police, or Bosnian secret police or intelligence agencies with

18     respect to giving an interview with the Office of the Prosecutor?

19        A.   No, no.

20        Q.   Sir, have you ever been convicted of a crime or a misdemeanour

21     offence?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Now, let me back up a bit.  The Office of the Prosecution when

24     you were first approached by them and asked to give an interview in

25     Sarajevo, did they ever tell you how it was they had come to know of you

Page 6725

 1     and to contact you?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Now, in listening to your testimony and in reviewing the

 4     videotape, and I put it to you it seem that you got involved in this

 5     whole thing, the signing of the statement that was incorrect for money at

 6     the sole, exclusive initiative and invitation of VG-145, is that

 7     accurate?

 8        A.   Yes.  I ...

 9        Q.   You can finish your answer.

10        A.   I finished.  VG-145, I mean, nothing really mattered in that time

11     except to get hold of some money.

12        Q.   Sir, are you aware that this same gentleman, VG-145, is the

13     person who gave your name to the Prosecution resulting in you being

14     called in for an interview in Sarajevo in February 2009?

15        A.   I don't know, but it's possible.

16        Q.   Now, did you know that VG-145 initially asked the Prosecution for

17     money, 2500 Euros, in fact, to talk to them and to turn you in?

18             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I object.  I don't believe there's

19     any evidence about turning him in.  I don't think that's facts in

20     evidence.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He was not aware.

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   Now, with respect to Mr. -- one moment, sir, when my microphone

25     is on, I urge you not to talk otherwise your protective measures might be

Page 6726

 1     compromised.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Might I just say that I've been asked

 3     specifically to advise all parties about that by the technical personnel,

 4     to ensure that the microphones are turned off.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Now, sir --

 7        A.   All right.  I'm sorry.

 8        Q.   Hopefully that was fast enough.  I got to get faster.

 9             Sir, if you could focus on Mr. A for a second.  Did you know that

10     Mr. A also tried to obtain money from the Prosecution and worked some

11     kind of combination for purposes of giving the interview, the videotaped

12     interview that he gave to the Office of the Prosecution.

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Now, when you were called in by the Prosecution in Sarajevo to

15     give an interview, did you expect that you were going to be receiving

16     monies or benefits or compensation from the Prosecution for giving that

17     interview?  Was that your understanding?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, if we can talk about this whole -- this whole

20     plan or scheme, this plan that was presented to you by VG-145.  When you

21     first got involved, you didn't realise that VG-145 expected you to lie,

22     did you?

23        A.   Yes, all this is new to me.  News to me.

24        Q.   And with regards to this alleged scheme or plot that was

25     presented to you by VG-145, am I correct that, and I put it to you, that

Page 6727

 1     Mr. A in his interview said that VG-145 devised this scheme to fuck up

 2     some people, and I believe you said to cheat some people.  I put it to

 3     you, is that precisely the truth of the nature and intent of the alleged

 4     scheme?

 5        A.   I don't know.  If I had known that this was some great conspiracy

 6     or something, I would never have done any of that.  Perhaps they wanted

 7     to get me involved for some reasons of their own.  I didn't even know

 8     what they were planning.  I just came to sign something, get my money,

 9     and split, and never see them again.

10        Q.   So the point is, sir, that the intent of this alleged scheme that

11     was cooked up by Mr. VG-145, it never included you coming here to testify

12     falsely, did it?  It just included cheating some persons in Bosnia?

13        A.   Most probably.  I wasn't really in the know.  I didn't realise

14     any of that.  But now I can see that is the way it is.

15        Q.   And would you agree with me that the target of VG-145's alleged

16     scheme would have been the tall girl that you spoke with --

17             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour.  I think counsel is

18     going -- taking great liberties with evidence here.  The great scheme,

19     there's no evidence of that.  There's no evidence that VG-145 is not here

20     yet to testify about what is in his mind.  He is asking this witness to

21     testify what was in the mind of VG-145, and it's inappropriate.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I'm trying to abbreviate the schedule.

23     But we have a videotaped interview of this witness.  I have a transcript

24     of that interview of this witness by the Office of the Prosecution where

25     precisely those facts are discussed in the interview --

Page 6728

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, but you can't put to him the question in

 2     the way that you have.  That is that the target of VG-145's scheme would

 3     have been the tall girl because he can't testify to that unless he had

 4     discussed it with VG-145 and VG-145 had told him.  Maybe you can put

 5     that.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will do that.

 7        Q.   Sir, can you please answer the question that the Judge has now

 8     posed.  Did you have discussions with VG-145 or a knowledge based upon

 9     discussions with VG-145 as to who the target was?  Who was it that you --

10     that he and Mr. A with your assistance expected to cheat or fuck up, as

11     Mr. A said?

12        A.   I didn't know who was the target, nor did I care at that time

13     about anyone.  They just told me to bring my ID card, to sign, never you

14     mind what it's all about.

15        Q.   Well, let me ask you this, when you went to the municipality, and

16     am I correct that that was the first time that you saw or had any contact

17     with the tall girl speaking with the Ikavian accent?

18        A.   That's when I saw her the first time and this person VG-145 told

19     me to keep my mouth shut and just do what I was supposed to do, and

20     that's how it was.

21        Q.   So am I correct that VG-145 instructed you not to talk to this

22     tall girl speaking want Ikavian accent about the nature of his plan?

23        A.   Yes.  I didn't even know there was any great plan, if indeed

24     there was.  I couldn't have discussed it if I wasn't aware of it.

25        Q.   I appreciate that, sir.

Page 6729

 1             Now, in the direct examination you have identified that you

 2     weren't ever in Visegrad during June, the time-period that is in the

 3     written statement or in the statement signed by you, it is alleged that

 4     you were in Visegrad.  I have the transcript of your interview.  Your

 5     Honours, for the record it's the transcript of V0008080, in e-court it

 6     should be available.  I would ask that it not be published so that the

 7     witness's protective measures are intact.  Perhaps we don't even need it

 8     if he recalls, but I want to have it ready in case he needs refreshing of

 9     his recollection.  Do you recall saying in your tape-recorded interview

10     with the Office of the Prosecution referring to the tall girl, "Maybe she

11     didn't even know that I wasn't even there at all."  Do you recall saying

12     something of that nature?

13        A.   Possibly.  I probably did because I never read that transcript in

14     the interview.  It could have said anything at all.  I never read it.

15        Q.   Sir, as you sit here today, do you consider it a possibility that

16     VG-145 and Mr. A tricked, not only you, but this tall girl speaking with

17     Ikavian accent that you saw at the municipality when you signed the

18     statement?

19             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour.  He can ask how he felt,

20     but he can't ask what someone else did and characterise it.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I am putting my case to him.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, I think he can ask whether he consider it

23     is a possibility that he was tricked.  You can put that to him.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Fair enough.  Sir, I would ask you, do you sitting here now

Page 6730

 1     knowing what you know, do you feel that you were tricked by VG-145 and

 2     Mr. A?

 3        A.   Well, most probably they did.  From what I know now, VG-145 is

 4     the one who actually contacted me and I did not have anything to do with

 5     Mr. A, but VG-145 was the one who initially found me, told me where to

 6     come, what to do.

 7        Q.   Sir, would it be affair assessment to say that this entire time

 8     when VG-145 was contacting you and instructing you what to do, that you

 9     were all drinking regularly and heavily?

10        A.   I did.  I don't know about VG-145 or Mr. A.

11        Q.   Would you say that you were fairly inebriated most of the time

12     and unaware of what was going on?

13        A.   Well, I was drunk a lots of the time.  I wasn't blacking out or

14     completely out of my mind, but I was drunk.

15        Q.   Now, you indicated in your direct examination and again it's

16     something that is in your interview with the Office of the Prosecution,

17     that after the municipality you returned to the cafe with VG-145 and that

18     the envelope was open and the money was distributed in three parts, and

19     you drank 100 Euros worth of alcohol; is that correct, sir?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And so I take from that, that you only received 300 Euros, is

22     that accurate?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, sir, could you tell those of us who have not had the

25     occasion to purchase alcohol in Sarajevo, how much alcohol can one

Page 6731

 1     purchase at the cafe that you were at for 100 Euros?  What quantity of

 2     alcohol is involved?

 3        A.   It depends.  If it's a shop, a beer will set you back 50 Euro

 4     cent.  If it's a cafe, it's normally 1 Euro or 2 marks.

 5        Q.   So for the 100 Euros, you and the other two individuals could

 6     theoretically drink 100 beers; is that correct?

 7        A.   Well, maybe it wasn't 100 bottles.  I had some myself, three

 8     glasses of wine before they even came and they may have bought a round or

 9     two of drinks for the manager.

10        Q.   I appreciate your candour, sir.

11             Now, and am I correct that during that time VG-145 and Mr. A were

12     also drinking?

13        A.   They were, but not the same quantity as me.  Nowhere near in

14     fact.  I'm just talking about that day.  I don't know.  That morning.

15        Q.   Okay.  Had you had occasion to be drinking with Mr. A in

16     particular prior to this occasion or subsequent to this occasion?  Had

17     you had an opportunity to drink with Mr. A on other occasions?

18        A.   I did have occasion to drink with Mr. A.  We come from the same

19     town.  I was living in Vogosca for awhile, and that's where Mr. A lives.

20     So there were some opportunities then, but not later.

21        Q.   How long have you and Mr. A known each other, and how many times

22     did you go out drinking with him?

23        A.   I've known him for 20 or 30 years.  I can't remember.  More

24     specifically since we were children.

25        Q.   Do you know that he currently has an armed robbery warrant for

Page 6732

 1     his arrest for an international warrant?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Let me ask you this, sir, in the course of you knowing him that

 4     long and drinking with him, I have to ask you something about something

 5     that he -- that Mr. A said in his transcript of his interview, V00008081

 6     at page 63 of 77.  He identified another one of his regular drinking

 7     friends as being "the crown witness against Milan Lukic."  And he

 8     identified a one armed man that he is very good friends with

 9     Hamdija Vilic.  Do you know Mr. Hamdija Vilic, sir?

10        A.   Do I know Hamdija Vilic?  No.  Not personally, but I know of him.

11        Q.   What do you know about him?

12        A.   What do I know about him?  He is from somewhere around Visegrad.

13     He only has one arm.  He lost his other arm when he was drunk with a

14     brother of his who I think is in Austria or some place and who is prone

15     to starting a fight.  That's about all I know.  I don't really know that

16     much about him.

17             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, may I we are looking at the

18     transcript.  We don't see the reference that you quoted.  Could we just

19     verify the page again, please.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Sure thing.  Yes, it's the Mr. A transcript which is

21     8081, and it is page 63 of 77.

22             MR. ALARID:  Bottom of the page.

23                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

24             MS. SARTORIO:  On our screen, it's not here.  I'm not saying it's

25     not here, but I would like to find it before we continue.  We are on page

Page 6733

 1     63 of -- do you have a hard copy.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, I do.  Could we put it on the ELMO?

 3             MS. SARTORIO:  That would be fine.  Our transcript only has 72

 4     pages, so perhaps we could see the front page of the transcript first.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  It's your transcript, counsel.  It was disclosed to

 6     us on the CD batch as number -- the number I quoted, 8081.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You should proceed, and Mr. Alarid can assist in

 8     finding the page.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  We have the page, Your Honour, it's 63.  We are very

10     sure he was.  It's highlighted on the bottom left, it should be on the

11     screen right now.

12             MS. SARTORIO:  We are fine, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, proceed.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Here, sir -- now, sir, here it says this again Mr. A's words, and

16     I would ask that this not be broadcast because we are refer together

17     Mr. A.  Thank you.  Here it is said that Mr. A said:

18             "No way, I would have killed her if had read that, or if I had

19     known.  We just took the money and good-bye.  I would like to apologise,

20     but I would like it to say that every second or third day I socialise, or

21     had sit with the man who was crown witness in the case against Milan.

22     The Vilic guy without an arm.  We are friends actually."

23             Is that the individual that you've been referring to as

24     Hamdija Vilic, sir?

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, about five minutes left.  I don't

Page 6734

 1     know if the witness heard the question.  Just repeat it.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Sir, the question I have for you is having heard Mr. A's words,

 4     is that the same Mr. Vilic that you have been testifying about that you

 5     know but are not friends with?

 6        A.   Based on what should I conclude which Vilic we are talking about.

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 8        A.   Just that one.

 9        Q.   Fair enough.  And with that one -- with that one that you know,

10     isn't it correct that you have had occasion to socialise and drink with

11     Mr. Vilic in the company of Mr. A, in the 20 or 30 years that you've

12     known Mr. A?

13        A.   The three of us.

14        Q.   In company, not necessarily the three of you alone, but you've

15     been in the presence of this Vilic with one arm drinking with him and

16     Mr. A on some occasion in the past?

17        A.   Well, yes, yes.  That did happen.  Vogosca as such is small.

18     When you were in Vogosca, there are only perhaps one or two places to go

19     out and have a drink.  Yes, but we didn't talk.  I don't know what we

20     talked about.

21        Q.   I am going to ask you -- what I was going to ask you is did you

22     have any conversations or contact with Mr. Vilic pertaining to your

23     dealings with Mr. VG-145, Mr. A, your interview with your Office of the

24     Prosecution, our your appearance here today?

25        A.   No.

Page 6735

 1             MR. IVETIC:  If we can have up on the screen, P325, it's under

 2     seal, so it should not be broadcast.

 3        Q.   Sir, I'm going to show you the document that you signed at the

 4     municipality that the questions were asked about by counsel a few moments

 5     ago.  First I'd like to ask you, the the persons whose named you

 6     mentioned, that is to say Savovic, et cetera, those are all people that

 7     anyone from Visegrad would have known; is that correct?  The chief of

 8     police, the president of the municipality, those are people that anyone

 9     from Visegrad would know?  Is that accurate?

10             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour, I'm not sure this witness

11     can testify about everyone in Visegrad knowing people.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I believe it's the kind of information that he

13     might have.  Let him answer.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who specifically do you have in

15     mind?  We all knew each other, those of us living in Visegrad.

16             MR. IVETIC:

17        Q.   And looking at this -- now, sir, could you explain for me with

18     respect to the -- have you had an opportunity now to read this document,

19     now that it was presented to you by the Prosecution in Sarajevo,

20     presented to you by the Prosecution here in The Hague.  Have you now had

21     an opportunity to read this document that you signed?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   And why is that, sir?  Why have you not read this document that

24     you signed, that is causing all this interest in you and causing persons

25     to bring you to testify?

Page 6736

 1        A.   I didn't hear and over there when I signed it, VG-145 took it

 2     away.

 3        Q.   Well, sir, looking at this document now, would you agree with me

 4     that these facts that are set forth in this document are facts that

 5     someone from Visegrad would know?

 6        A.   Can you please repeat that.  I'm sorry.

 7        Q.   Well, sir, looking at this document now, would you agree with me

 8     that these facts set forth therein are facts that someone from Visegrad

 9     would know?  That a lot of these facts are generally known facts?

10        A.   Well, I don't know.  I wasn't there, and I didn't particularly

11     want to know.  I can only tell you what I know.

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  I'll repeat the question.

19        Q.   I want to put it to you that no one from the Milan Lukic Defence

20     and certainly not Milan Lukic himself ever approached you to offer or

21     give you money for false testimony or for the signing of this document,

22     that it was explicitly and exclusively Mr. VG-145 and Mr. A, perhaps with

23     Mr. Hamdija Vilic's assistance who did the same.  What do you have to say

24     to that, sir?

25        A.   Number one, I don't know Milan Lukic at all, as a person.  I

Page 6737

 1     never met him.  As for VG-145, he contacted me, Mr. A and Vilic had

 2     nothing to do with that.  That's all I have to say.  I can't say anything

 3     about Vilic or about Mr. A or indeed about Milan Lukic.

 4        Q.   But Mr. A was with Mr. VG-145 at all times when they met with

 5     you?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  No, no, not throughout.  Not throughout.  Just that

 7     once in a cafe when this occurred.  I don't know what their relationship

 8     was about.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Okay.  Mr. Ivetic.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm going to put the last question that you put

12     to him so see whether I can just get a very explicit answer.  But I'm

13     going to divide it into two.  Witness, listen carefully.

14             Is it true that no one from the Milan Lukic Defence and certainly

15     not Milan Lukic himself ever approached you to offer or give you any

16     money for false testimony?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No.  That's true.  No.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And is it also true that it was only VG-145 and

19     Mr. A, perhaps with the assistance of Hamdija Vilic who did that, who did

20     approach you.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I apologise for objecting to a question

22     but the by the Chamber, but he has been very clear that Hamdija Vilic had

23     nothing to do with this already, so I'm just reluctant in the compound

24     question that --

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'll rephrase it and leave out the reference to

Page 6738

 1     Hamdija.  But is it true that it was only VG-145 and Mr. A who made such

 2     an offer it to you?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, just VG-145.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Any re-examination.

 5             MS. SARTORIO:  Just one, Your Honour.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, if I could tender the documents

 7     VG-0008080, which is under seal which is the transcript of the interview

 8     with this particular witness; and VG-0008081 also under seal which is the

 9     transcript of the OTP's interview with Mr. A.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit 1D222 and 223, both under

12     seal.

13                           Re-examination by Ms. Sartorio:

14        Q.   Sir, I just have one question for you.  At the municipality

15     building you talked about a girl and a lad, did you know either of those

16     two people?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

20             MS. SARTORIO:  Sorry.

21        Q.   Had you ever seen those two people in and around Visegrad?

22        A.   No, no.

23             MS. SARTORIO:  No further questions.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, that concludes your evidence.  We thank

25     you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.  You may now leave.

Page 6739

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I've given some consideration to the

 5     matter of VG-145 and what has occurred this morning.  Given his conduct

 6     this morning, I'm not sure what weight could ever be placed upon his

 7     evidence.  I did not think that a subpoena issued by the Chamber would

 8     necessarily change his position or make his evidence any more believable.

 9     I've also considered whether to seek introduction of the videotape under

10     the hearsay rules through one of the lawyers or investigators who

11     conducted the interview.

12             However, I believe that given the unusual history of this witness

13     and the serious allegations that he has made against both Mr. Milan Lukic

14     and his counsel, I think fairness require that is his attorneys have an

15     opportunity to cross-examine him; so therefore, I'm making an oral

16     application at this time, Your Honour to remove VG-145 from the

17     Prosecution rebuttal witness list.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We grant the application.

19             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Which means that we have no more witnesses for

21     today, is that it.

22             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, this was completely unanticipated,

23     all the witnesses are scheduled for Monday, Tuesday, I believe the last

24     one, Wednesday of next week.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, we will adjourn until Monday in the

Page 6740

 1     morning.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.57 a.m.

 3                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of April

 4                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.