Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7061

 1                           Thursday, 9 April, 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.54 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  There's a witness to be called as a Chamber

 6     witness.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

 9             And, Mr. Ivetic, you should begin.

10             Please make the declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you very much.  You may sit.

14             Mr. Ivetic, you may begin.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours, am I to understand we are

16     going to be in closed session?  Is that correct?

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, closed session.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's go to closed session.

20             You may sit.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7062











11  Pages 7062-7063 redacted. Private session.















Page 7064

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 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

20        Q.   Madam, now we are in open session so our words are being

21     broadcast to the open public, so I would urge you and caution you to be

22     careful not give any details that might identify to yourself to anyone

23     listening.  And if an answer to my question requires you to do so, please

24     ask me to go into private session, is that understood?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7065

 1        Q.   Thank you, madam.

 2             Now, the statement you gave to the Association of Women Victims

 3     of War in July of 2008 was taken personally by Bakira Hasecic and a

 4     colleague of hers Mirsada Tabakovic; is that right?

 5        A.   Right.

 6        Q.   Had you known either Bakira Hasecic or Mirsada Tabakovic prior to

 7     giving that statement to the Association of Women Victims of War in

 8     Sarajevo?

 9        A.   I didn't know Bakira, but I knew Mirsada.

10        Q.   And Mirsada Tabakovic, is she from Visegrad?

11        A.   I knew Mirsada, yes.  Yes, she is.

12        Q.   Okay.  And I apologise, madam, I don't have -- I don't have a

13     copy in the Bosnian language of that statement.  It was only provided to

14     me in English, otherwise I would give a copy to you to review, but the

15     question I have for you, ma'am, is when you gave that statement, were the

16     answers that you gave to the questions truthful?

17        A.   They were.

18        Q.   Okay.  Now, that statement covers a wide variety of details and

19     events.  For our purposes, you are here to discuss the shooting of a lady

20     named Hajra Koric, so I would ask you to focus on that portion of the

21     material that you gave to the Hasecic organisation.  And in that a

22     statement, it's at page 5 of the English, and again I don't have a B/C/S

23     copy for you, madam, but in describing the critical incident about the

24     Hajra Koric killing, you refer to an unknown Chetnik, and you say:

25             "He looked at me and this other Chetnik told Milan Lukic, 'It's

Page 7066

 1     not that one.'  At that moment he saw Hajra behind me, that Chetnik

 2     singled her out, and only half a metre from us killed Hajra in front of

 3     all of us, shooting at Hajra."

 4             And then you list the persons that were with you that I will not

 5     mention for purposes of your protective measures.  And then you continue:

 6             "That woman Hajra incidentally fell down, and she only stretched

 7     out one leg.  Milan asked, 'What happened to her?'  And this other

 8     Chetnik answered, 'I have no idea.'"

 9             And then you claim that another gun-shot was fired, this time by

10     Milan, and I want to --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   So is that that I've just read back to you, is that an accurate

13     depiction of your recollections as to how the death of Hajra Koric came

14     about that another Chetnik, not Milan Lukic, shot her and killed her in

15     front of you?

16        A.   Milan Lukic shot at her.  What I stated earlier on is true

17     because I was there.

18        Q.   Well, you have to help us out here, ma'am, because in the

19     statement it clearly says that the other Chetnik is the one that shot

20     killing Hajra Koric and that Milan Lukic only shot later.

21        A.   No.  Milan Lukic shot.

22        Q.   Madam, how do you explain the discrepancy in the statement that

23     you told me you gave truthfully to the Bakira Hasecic association, the

24     Association of Women Victims of War?

25        A.   Just as I was giving my statement to Bakira, I'm giving one now.

Page 7067

 1     Milan Lukic was the one looking for Hajra Koric, and he is the one who

 2     killed her.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Did another person shoot Hajra before

 4     Milan Lukic?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Pardon?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see.  And are you saying that the only person

 9     who shot Hajra was Milan Lukic?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would tender ERN number 0641-2124,

12     but I would ask that it not be -- that it be under because it does

13     contain the contact information of this witness.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D228 under seal, Your Honours.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Madam, before we leave this exhibit, this statement you gave to

18     the Hasecic organisation, I'd like you to tell me how it came to be that

19     you were in contact with this organisation so as to give a statement.

20     Tell us about the process there.

21        A.   They were the ones who contacted me, not the other way around.

22     She wanted to speak to me.

23        Q.   When you say "she," who is the she that wanted to speak you to

24     and sought you out to give this statement?

25        A.   Bakira did.  Bakira called me and asked me about it, that is to

Page 7068

 1     say, to give a statement.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can I have a copy of this statement, or can it

 3     be put on the --

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Absolutely, Your Honours.  Can we pull it up.  It's

 5     ERN number 0641-2124.  Or if Your Honours like, with the approval of the

 6     Prosecution, I do have a clean copy, it's the redacted copy that was

 7     disclosed to us.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, I still prefer hard copies, so may I

 9     have ...  it's not in e-court anyhow, I understand.

10             MR. IVETIC:  It should be.  It was on our 65 ter list.

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have a copy if the Court wants, an

12     unredacted copy, so whichever the Court --

13             MR. IVETIC:  It's my understanding the only thing that's redacted

14     is the current address of the witness.  And the statement -- it's a

15     six-page -- 0641-2128 at the top third of the page where the information

16     about the Hajra Koric shooting is set forth.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  May I ask you, Witness, if you remember in July

19     of last year you gave a statement to the Association of Women Victims of

20     War Sarajevo?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do remember that.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It was the 25th of July actually.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So in that statement you say the following:

25             "Milan Lukic and that other person made us go back one by one and

Page 7069

 1     started asking, 'Is it this one, this one?'  Actually, he was looking for

 2     Hajra who came from Nova Mahala.  When my turn came, he stopped to ask,

 3     that other Chetnik, 'Is it this one?'  And Hajra was behind me.  He

 4     looked at me, and this other Chetnik told Milan Lukic, 'It's not that

 5     one.'  At that moment as he saw Hajra behind me, that Chetnik singled her

 6     out, and only half a metre from us killed Hajra in front of all of us,

 7     shooting at Hajra."

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Do you remember saying that.  Now, it goes on:

10             "Specifically, there were:  1, me; 2 --

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the next name you are about to say is

12     VG-35.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So that we should be in.

14             MR. GROOME:  I actually prepared a pseudonym sheet with VG-35's

15     name and her VG number on it, if that assists the Court, we could remain

16     in open session, If we just let the witness know who VG-35 is.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I prefer to go in closed session, so I can call

18     the name.  It's less confusing.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7070











11  Page 7070 redacted. Private session.















Page 7071

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Madam, I asked you just before His Honour had had some questions

 6     for you, I asked you about how it was you that Bakira Hasecic knew that

 7     you had information that was of interest to her for purposes of

 8     generating this statement in July of 2008.

 9        A.   I don't know how she came by the information.  She was seeking me

10     out in order that I give a statement.

11        Q.   And when she was seeking you out, did she tell you precisely what

12     she was seeking you out to give a statement about?

13        A.   She didn't explain to me what it was all about.  She only asked

14     that I give a statement for the Association of Women Victims of War.

15        Q.   Was this statement generated in the course of an interview with

16     Ms. Hasecic and Mrs. Tabakovic?

17        A.   I told them what I had experienced and what I had observed.

18        Q.   How long did that last, that discussion with them?

19        A.   Well, I don't know.  Roughly two to three hours.

20        Q.   Did either Mrs. Hasecic or Mrs. Tabakovic offer you assistance in

21     terms of remembering certain facts?  Did they prompt you with certain

22     facts that needed to be in your statement?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Did they tell you what other ladies had said or other witnesses

25     had said about the same incidents that you were talking about?

Page 7072

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Okay, fair enough.  Now, you also gave an interview, witness

 3     interview to the Bosnia and Herzegovina Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo

 4     approximately -- well, almost, I think, two weeks after the interview

 5     with the Bakira Hasecic.  Do you recall giving that interview to the

 6     Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   Now, first of all, on the 25th page of that document in B/C/S,

 9     that's the signature page where the signatures are located.  That would

10     be in English the 52nd -- pardon me, 51st page in the English version,

11     and this is -- 0642-3913 is the ERN of this document.  I will read out

12     the section for you.  And this would be in B/C/S.

13             [Interpretation] "You said to the Prosecutor in Sarajevo that

14     before the statement you are giving today, the question was whether you

15     had ever given a statement to the police to the SIPA or the Prosecutor's

16     Office.

17             "A.  No.

18             "Q.  Did you ever give a statement to anyone from the ICTY?

19             "Witness:  No.  On these matters no, I didn't to anyone."

20             [In English] And I have two questions arising out of this, madam.

21     When you said that "on these matters, no, I didn't give to anyone," what

22     -- on what matters did you give a statement to the Office of the

23     Prosecutor?

24        A.   I only told them about the statement that I had given to Bakira.

25        Q.   The statement to Bakira is not referenced in this interview with

Page 7073

 1     the Office of the Prosecutor when they ask you about other statements

 2     you've given.  Why is that, ma'am?

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the question was whether she had given

 4     a statement to police, I think to some other organisations.  It wasn't a

 5     general, had you ever given a statement to anyone?  I think they were

 6     very specific in who they were asking whether she gave is a statement to.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honour, she said -- she said in her

 8     answer, I only told them about the statement that I had given to Bakira.

 9     And this transcript of her interview does not mention Bakira's statement

10     at all.

11        Q.   So I'm asking why is that?

12        A.   I didn't give a statement to anyone else.  The first statement I

13     gave was the one to Bakira.

14        Q.   Let me clarify, madam, perhaps the intervention by my colleague

15     confused you.

16             You told us that you only told the Office of the Prosecutor in

17     Sarajevo about the interview that you gave to Bakira.  However, the

18     transcript of your discussions with them does not, in fact, indicate that

19     you told them about giving a statement to Bakira.  So why is that?  Did

20     you tell them about Bakira's statement or not?

21        A.   I don't remember, but I don't think I mentioned having given a

22     statement before.  I believe they cooperated and that there was no need

23     for me to mention that I had given a statement to Bakira.

24        Q.   Okay.  Well, ma'am, what is interesting is that in this statement

25     to the Office of the Prosecutor in Sarajevo, with the section that both

Page 7074

 1     myself and Your Honour read out to you from Bakira's statement, you have

 2     the exact same words, the only difference being that now you have

 3     interchanged so that Milan Lukic is the one who shot first --

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

 5             MR. GROOME:  I have to object to what is a terribly inaccurate

 6     characterization of the statement.  The statement from Sarajevo is

 7     actually a verbatim transcript of the tape-recording of what the witness

 8     said.  We are talking about it, if Mr. Ivetic doesn't tender it into

 9     evidence, I certainly will be so the Chamber can see exactly in this

10     woman's own words what she said about two weeks after the statement that

11     Mr. Ivetic has tendered and seeks to rely on.

12             MR. IVETIC:  I fail to see what is incorrect, where she now says

13     Milan Lukic was the one that shot.  In the other statement she said it

14     was the other person.

15             MR. GROOME:  My objection is that she says the exact same thing

16     except for this one fact; she doesn't.  She gives an unprompted account

17     of what happened, and she says exactly what she saw.  It's not simply a

18     change of who did the shooting.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, let us see that statement.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Sure, Your Honours.  I've called it up as 0642-3913,

21     and it's the 43rd page in the English translation.  If we don't -- I

22     don't know if that one is released.  I do have a clean copy.

23             MR. GROOME:  I just had it uploaded into e-court.  It's available

24     now in e-court in both languages.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  This one was given 12 days after the one she

Page 7075

 1     gave to the association.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  And the portion that Mr. Ivetic

 3     is referring to in English is page 43, and the original B/C/S is on

 4     page 22, so that would be the relevant page to put before the witness.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Is this the page, Mr. Groome?

 6             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, it is.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm reading it.

 8             MR. GROOME:  It goes down a little bit further, and I think the

 9     upper portion is irrelevant, but if it can be scrolled down a little bit

10     more, I think it has the complete account.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, do you remember some --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Some 12 days after giving this statement to the

14     victims association, you gave another statement to the Prosecutor's

15     Office in Sarajevo, that was on the 6th of August.  Do you remember that?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Now, I'm going to read a portion from the --

18     that statement.  You are speaking with an officer of the Prosecutor's

19     office, and the portion I'm going to read begins this way, you say:

20             "We started going back.  Since it was a small narrow road we had

21     to walk behind each other, and as we approached them one by one,

22     Milan Lukic asked everyone, 'is this the person?'  Hajra was behind me.

23     She was walking behind me.  When he got to me he stopped and asked, 'Is

24     this the person?'"

25             Then the Prosecutor's officer asked:

Page 7076

 1             "Are you referring to Milan Lukic as the person who asked the

 2     question?"

 3             And you answered:

 4             "Yes."

 5             Prosecutor's office asked:

 6             "And what did that other person say?"

 7             And you answered:

 8             "This man stopped for a minute or two, looked at me and said,

 9     'No, it's not.'"

10             And then the Prosecutor's officer asked:

11             "And what happened when they got to Hajra?"

12             And you answered:

13             "As Hajra came up behind me, he moved her some half a metre from

14     us and suddenly shot her."

15             The Prosecutor's officer asked:

16             "Who shot her?"

17             And you answered:

18             "Milan Lukic.  The other asked, 'What was up with her?'  He

19     replied, 'I've got no answer,' and walked up to her and shot her again."

20             The Office of the Prosecutor said:

21             "So Milan Lukic shot her twice?"

22             And you answered:

23             "Yes."

24             Do you remember giving that statement?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, and it always had to do with

Page 7077

 1     Milan Lukic alone.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Milan Lukic, yes, but the question that counsel

 3     would be asking you is 12 days before in your statement to the victims

 4     association, you said a Chetnik shot Hajra and killed her, and after that

 5     Milan Lukic shot her; whereas here you appear to be saying that it was

 6     Milan Lukic alone who shot her.  Mr. Groome is going to correct

 7     something.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I respectfully -- I think -- what I

 9     think is the problem is that in the Bakira Hasecic's statement a pronoun

10     is used, and it's used in a way that creates confusion.  I'm not sure

11     it's so clear from this statement that she has identified the other

12     person.  I do admit that it is unclear because of the use of the pronoun,

13     but we don't have the original statement, so I believe that's the source

14     of the problem.

15             MR. IVETIC:  I think not, Your Honour, because she's very clear

16     in terms of identifying who asked and who said what is up with her.  In

17     the prior statement she said, That other Chetnik asked what is up with

18     her, and Milan Lukic said, I have no idea.  Here it's specifically says

19     the other person asked, What is up with her?  And then Milan Lukic

20     replied, I've got into idea.  So it's very clear that she's been

21     referring to the persons with the name, the fixed name, as Milan Lukic,

22     and the pronoun as this other individual, and now she has flipped who is

23     saying what and who is saying what.  So it's very clear that the names

24     have been interchanged when reading the two side by side, and that would

25     be what --

Page 7078

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  May I ask you, Mr. Ivetic, whether it is your

 2     case that Milan Lukic did shoot Hajra but no criminal liability attaches

 3     to him because she was already dead?  Please think carefully before you

 4     answer that.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I have thought carefully.

 6             Your Honours, we dispute that Milan Lukic was anywhere near

 7     Hajra Koric, and we believe that this shows -- goes to the credibility of

 8     the witnesses that have been brought.  And again there was only one other

 9     witness brought for this incident who we've heard the relation with this

10     particular witness, and it's our belief that this shows some issue of

11     credibility as to that, and there will be another point that I will be

12     making that I think will make it absolutely clear as to what our case is

13     with respect to this particular incident.  In fact, maybe we can move

14     there now, if Your Honours are finished with this particular portion of

15     the transcript.  There's another portion that will illuminate it very

16     succinctly in her own words as to who this Milan Lukic is that shot

17     Hajra Koric.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Groome.

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would just ask that before we leave

21     this area, given the amount of discussion about this other statement and

22     the Court's reading of it, that it be tendered into the evidence.  It's

23     the statement of the 6th of August of 2008 of this witness.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we admit it.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Absolutely.

Page 7079

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 2             Any other questions on this statement?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  On the statement, yes, I do, Your Honour.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise.  The statement becomes Exhibit P336

 5     Your Honours, under seal.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  We should be

 7     apologizing to you, we didn't give you a chance to stand up.

 8        Q.   Madam, in this statement at page 14 of the B/C/S, you describe

 9     this individual Milan Lukic who did this to Hajra Koric, and again I'll

10     have to go on the B/C/S because that's the copy that I had when I was

11     preparing the questions, and at page 14 you say, it says:

12             [Interpretation] "Witness:  I would gladly provide with you a

13     description testifying that it was Milan Lukic.

14                 "Q.  Can you describe that person?

15                  "Witness:  Rather tall, blond hair; age, well, 25 or 26.  I

16     think he was born in 1967 or 1968 or around that year.

17                 "Q.  How do you know that?

18                 "A.  Because I know it.  I think he was my husband's

19     schoolmate, and he was their neighbour.  His brother used to live in that

20     house before I married into that family."

21             [In English] And the question I have for you, ma'am, which

22     brother of Milan Lukic lived in your husband's house before you married

23     into that house?

24        A.   Sredoje Lukic lived in that house.  I heard they were brothers,

25     they may well not be, but I believe they are.  In any case, I know that

Page 7080

 1     Sredoje Lukic used to live in that house.

 2        Q.   In fact, I can tell you that they are not brothers.

 3             Madam, what school did your husband finish that he would have

 4     gone to school with Milan Lukic?  And what grades do you believe that

 5     they went to school together?

 6        A.   I don't know what grades they attended together, therefore, I

 7     would decline providing any further statements about that.

 8        Q.   But you do know, and you stand by the fact, that Milan Lukic was

 9     rather tall and with blond hair?

10        A.   As far as I recall, he was blond and rather tall.

11        Q.   Could you describe for us that hair, how -- was it long, short?

12        A.   I don't remember the hair.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I apologise, I see -- would you like to take a break,

14     or ...

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms., would you like us to take a break?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll take a break for 10 minutes.

19                           --- Recess taken at 9.46 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 10.24 a.m.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How much longer do you have?

22             MR. IVETIC:  Ten minutes or less, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Okay.  Yes.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Madam, you, yourself, did not know Milan Lukic prior to the

Page 7081

 1     outbreak of war in Visegrad in 1992, did you?

 2        A.   No, I did not.

 3        Q.   Did this blond-haired individual that you called Milan Lukic who

 4     shot Hajra Koric have any identifying tattoos anywhere on his body that

 5     you could see?

 6        A.   I don't know.  I'm not familiar with that.

 7        Q.   Did he have any noticeable birth marks on his face, as we've had

 8     testimony from other witnesses as to a birth mark on his face?

 9        A.   I don't recall anything.

10        Q.   Okay.  Now, without mentioning any names so as to protect not

11     only yourself but any other persons such as your sister-in-law, did you

12     talk about this event with your sister-in-law or any of the other persons

13     that, according to your statement, were present for the shooting while

14     you were all refugees travelling together or meeting together outside of

15     Visegrad in the intervening years after the event?

16        A.   I only talked to my sister-in-law.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, for the abundance of caution I'd

18     rather go into private session so we can try to finish it quicker.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7082











11  Page 7082 redacted. Private session.















Page 7083

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 6        Q.   Madam, it's my understanding that this morning, you were given

 7     the transcript of your interview from the Sarajevo court for you to

 8     review and read in your language before testifying here today; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   It is not.

11        Q.   I apologise, and I'm happy to hear that because that would have

12     been troubling for me.

13             With respect to the statement given to the Bakira Hasecic

14     organisation, was there talk at that time amongst yourself and the other

15     two individuals, namely Bakira Hasecic and Ms. Tabakovic, as to the

16     impending start of the trial in the Milan Lukic case here before

17     The Hague Tribunal?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   You had never before given any statements to anyone about this

20     event, the killing of Hajra Koric; is that accurate?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   Okay, Madam, we are almost done.

23             I want to put my case to you now, and I want you to listen

24     carefully to it and understand what I'm telling you.

25             I put it to you, ma'am, that my client was never there when Hajra

Page 7084

 1     Koric was shot and killed.  I put it to you that the -- that

 2     Bakira Hasecic, that her statement, the statement that you did with her

 3     was a test run for your testimony, and that she prompted you to testify

 4     consistent with her statement, but that in Sarajevo, two weeks later, you

 5     made a mistake and switched the names and also gave a different

 6     description of Milan Lukic, which is why the Prosecution did not bring

 7     you in their case in chief but brought your sister-in-law.  Am I correct,

 8     ma'am?

 9        A.   No.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Witness.  It's up to the Judges now.

11     Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

13             Mr. Groome.

14             Sorry, Mr. Cepic?

15             MR. CEPIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I understood

16     this has nothing to do with my particular case.  However, I do have an

17     objection because something is being repeated by the Prosecutor.  The

18     statement that was tendered and admitted today, P336, this is something

19     we only received this morning at 8.31.  That is to say 10 minutes prior

20     to the beginning of the session.  Therefore, I was in no position to go

21     through it in detail.

22             Given the announcements for this part of the case, I don't think

23     there would be anything that I should be examining on behalf of my client

24     right now.  Therefore, I do not have any questions.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

Page 7085

 1             Mr. Groome.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I just have one question I'd like to

 3     put to the witness, if we could do it in private session.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7086











11  Pages 7086-7087 redacted. Private session.















Page 7088

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  On the 6th of April, the Defence of

16     Sredoje Lukic filed a motion seeking to admit the minutes of the 19th

17     session of the assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18     On 8th April, the Chamber ordered that any responses to the motion were

19     to be made orally today.  Only the Prosecution availed itself of this

20     opportunity.  The Chamber has examined the documents sought to be

21     admitted and considers that they are not of sufficient relevance to the

22     proceedings, and the motion is therefore denied.

23             The last decision is as follows:  The Chamber is aware that the

24     record contains exhibits which have been admitted into evidence more than

25     once.  In the interest of having a clear record, the Chamber therefore

Page 7089

 1     orders each party to review the exhibits it has tendered into evidence

 2     with a view to locating duplicate exhibits.  Furthermore, the Chamber

 3     orders the parties to liaise with each other in order to find exhibits

 4     tendered into evidence by one party but which have also been tendered by

 5     another party.  The parties are to inform the Chamber in writing of the

 6     results of their efforts by Friday, 17th April, at 4.00 p.m.

 7             Those are the decisions.

 8             Mr. Groome.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I could, there's a few matters that

10     I would like to raise with the Chamber.  The first relates to a decision

11     by the Chamber on the 30th of March, 2009, in which the Chamber ordered

12     the Milan Lukic Defence to immediately disclose to the Prosecution

13     contact information sought in relation to six witnesses.  At this stage

14     we haven't received any such information.  One of those witnesses, I'm

15     not sure whether there is a protective measures motion with respect to

16     him, but he is the person who we are scheduled to hear on the 21st of

17     April by video-link.  We still have not received a statement or been

18     provided the details of the witness including the correct spelling of his

19     name and date of birth.  It is my intention to attempt to speak with this

20     gentleman prior to the 21st, so I'm asking the Chamber to direct the

21     Milan Lukic Defence by the end of today to comply with that order of the

22     30th of March.

23             I am also considering whether to speak with the other six people

24     or other five people who were also subject of that order.  So I would ask

25     that full compliance with that order be accomplished before this long

Page 7090

 1     weekend.  I see Mr. Ivetic on his feet.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I must confess I'm not familiar with what other five

 4     people are the subject of the order, but I will attend to that.  With

 5     respect to the individual that Your Honours have tentatively scheduled

 6     for the 21st of April, I believe that all the information that we had

 7     available on him was included in the -- in the filing for requesting the

 8     subpoena which I thought had been served upon the Prosecution.  I am not

 9     -- but in any event, I will make sure that that information is available

10     to them, everything that we have from this individual.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  In any event, the Chamber will require you to

12     pass on the information to the Prosecutor by the end of today.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the second matter is with respect to

14     our preparations for the final submissions, in an effort to keep as much

15     material that really doesn't need to be private or confidential, to keep

16     it in the public domain just for ease of sighting and for transparency,

17     it occurs to me that the alibi notices filed in this case were filed

18     confidentially.  And the reason they were filed confidentially were

19     because Defence counsel intended to seek protective measures for some of

20     the witnesses.  And I think that was entirely appropriate.

21             But it is relevant and proper for us to discuss the alibi notice

22     itself, the substance of it, and so what I'm asking the Court -- I'm

23     asking the Court to issue an order or decision that allows the parties to

24     quote the substance of the alibi notice as well as the associated 65 ter

25     summaries of the alibi witnesses, as long as we observe all applicable

Page 7091

 1     protective measures motions.

 2             So, for example, that we would be allowed to write in our brief

 3     that Milan Lukic asserted on the 19th of July, 2008, that he was driving

 4     MLD1 to Belgrade, so that we would be able to cite to the substance of

 5     the original alibi.  So that would be my request with respect to that,

 6     Your Honour, that we be allowed to do that in the public portion of the

 7     brief.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  One part I'd like to respond to, then, is all the

10     parties know, it would I believe be improper to use 65 ter summaries,

11     particularly 65 ter summaries done before there was any contact with

12     these witnesses.  The witnesses testimony, when they came here to testify

13     under oath, is what is relevant to these proceedings and what is properly

14     taken into account of these witnesses.  We have time and again applied to

15     the Court and told the Court how the 65 ter list was generated, how the

16     65 ter summaries were generated, at that time we had not had contact with

17     a large majority of the witnesses that were on the Defence list given the

18     time period that we had to prepare the list and the requirements of

19     serving that list.  Therefore, I think I believe it's highly improper for

20     the Prosecution to make any references to the 65 ter summary that might

21     have been done without the input of the witness in terms of evaluating

22     the testimony of the witnesses.

23             The only part that is properly of the Court and of the record for

24     determining the evidence and/or guilt -- evidence of guilt and/or

25     innocence of the party -- of the accused is the testimony and the

Page 7092

 1     exhibits that have been provided of record in these proceedings.  Not,

 2     not the 65 ter summaries that were provided before the Defence had an

 3     opportunity to talk to witnesses and to find out what exactly or

 4     precisely they had to offer as testimony.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I just in response to Mr. Ivetic, it

 6     may be very well be that very little weight should be accorded them, but

 7     the fact remains that many the Defence witness statements, if you look at

 8     the date of the witness statements and you look at the date of the

 9     summaries, the statements actually predate the summaries, so it's in fact

10     not accurate to say that they were before any interview by Defence team

11     members.

12             And again, Your Honour, all I'm asking for is that the matter be

13     able to be treated publicly rather than in a confidential annex to the

14     brief, again recognising that the Chamber may decide to put little or no

15     weight on the 65 ter summaries.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll give a decision on this shortly.

18             MR. GROOME:  Then, Your Honours, just two more matters.  On the

19     1st of April, the Prosecution, again in an interest of making the

20     proceedings transparent and to move material that doesn't necessarily

21     have any need to be in private session or confidential, have filed a

22     motion with transcript references and exhibits that we submit should be

23     -- the status should be changed to allow them to be cited publicly.  The

24     case has moved on from there and there have been some additional

25     statements that I believe would be appropriate to have redacted versions

Page 7093

 1     made part of the public record in this case.  And I'm asking for

 2     permission to next week file a supplement to that 1st of April motion

 3     with redacted or proposed redacted versions of statements and other

 4     evidence that's been adduced since that motion was filed.  Again I think

 5     many of the decisions to place documents under seal were to protect the

 6     identity of the people who had provided them, but there still remains

 7     large portions of the substance of that evidence that I believe is

 8     appropriately handled publicly.  So I'm seeking permission to supplement

 9     our motion, and we will do that -- now that we have heard the last

10     witness, I think that we can do that by Wednesday.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well, Mr. Groome.

12             MR. GROOME:  And the final matter is the other day Mr. Ivetic

13     introduced into evidence four statements under 1D224.  Just in asking the

14     Chamber to consider whether it will not be less confusing if the four

15     different statements are given four different exhibit numbers or suffix

16     to distinguish between them.  They are four distinct statements.  I think

17     it will be clear in our arguments to the Chamber if they have four

18     different exhibit numbers.

19             And that's all I have, Your Honour.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So 1D224, A, B, C, and D.

21             MR. GROOME:  Either that, or .1, .2, whatever convention.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we will do that.

23             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Any other matters?

25             Well, it all remains for me to thank you all and to wish you a

Page 7094

 1     happy break.  For my own part, I will be in the Caribbean.

 2             And we will resume on the 21st.  The time will be announced.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.59 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of April,

 5                           2009.