120921IT

Page 2777

1 MS. D'ASCOLI: That concludes my examination, Your Honours.

2 Thanks.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. D'Ascoli.

4 Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear the speaker.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm just going to ask the usher

8 to help us give the witness the statement in B/C/S that was also used by

9 the OTP.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the number.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] P207, Your Honours, for

12 identification. That's the statement that this witness gave on the 10th

13 of October, 1994.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I ask you, Mr. Osmanovic, to make a

15 short pause between question and answer, and Mr. Stojanovic also will

16 make a brief pause between answer and question, and that is to enable the

17 interpreters to do their job.

18 Mr. Stojanovic, who cross-examines you, is counsel for

19 Mr. Mladic.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours .

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Osmanovic.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. My name is Miodrag Stojanovic. We'll try to speak a bit slower,

Page 2778

1 both you and I. It is my understanding on the basis of what you have

2 been saying that up until the beginning of the war there was not a single

3 facility of the JNA in Vlasenica.

4 A. Yes. There was no garrison of the JNA in Vlasenica.

5 Q. To the best of your knowledge, would you please tell the

6 Trial Chamber where the closest facility of the JNA was before the war?

7 A. In Han Pijesak, military post code 1524.

8 Q. Having read your various previous statements about what happened

9 in Vlasenica, it was my understanding that it was on the 21st of April,

10 1992, that the JNA unit that came from Sekovici entered Vlasenica. To

11 the best of your recollection, could you tell me whether this date is

12 correct?

13 A. Between the 21st and the 23rd. So it's either the 21st, the

14 22nd, or the 23rd. That's the date when Vlasenica was occupied.

15 JUDGE ORIE: It's ...

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Could you please tell us why you said that on that day - the 21st

18 or the 22nd or the 23rd - Vlasenica was occupied?

19 A. As the JNA entered Vlasenica --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please.

21 Let's proceed.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So let me just repeat the question.

24 Why did you say that when the JNA entered Vlasenica between the

25 21st and 23rd of April, 1992, why you did call it an occupation?

Page 2779

1 A. I called it an occupation for the following reason. As the unit

2 of the JNA entered Vlasenica, Mr. Stojanovic, all the vital functions of

3 town were taken over. Only one ethnic community was armed. Others

4 surrendered their weapons. A curfew was in point. This is classical

5 occupation. One could not leave town. One could not travel freely.

6 Q. Would you agree with me that already during those days in

7 April 1992 there was the Yugoslavia People's Army, the JNA, and there was

8 the state of Yugoslavia. It was still in existence. Yes or no?

9 A. Bosnia-Herzegovina was recognised as an independent state by way

10 of the referendum; that is to say, that the JNA used to be the joint army

11 but only Serbs stayed in that army. And the army was withdrawing towards

12 the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, or, rather, Serbia

13 and Montenegro in the previous period. However, when Vlasenica was

14 occupied, only one ethnic community was armed. Others were not allowed

15 to move about. This is occupation. This is a ghetto.

16 Q. Sir, at the time, were you politically involved in any way?

17 A. I was never politically involved.

18 Q. I am moving a bit slower so that we could have everything done

19 properly.

20 This is what I'd like to ask you now: After the first

21 multi-party elections in Vlasenica, in that year, 1992, who was in power

22 in the town of Vlasenica itself?

23 A. Mr. Stojanovic, during the first multi-party elections in

24 Vlasenica, there were two political parties that were struggling for

25 power, the SDS and the SDA.

Page 2780

1 The SDA was given the post of chief of the police administration

2 and the head of the municipality; whereas, the SDS got the commander of

3 the police station, also the head of the executive of the municipality,

4 and also the top posts in various companies there.

5 Q. Am I right if I say that until the outbreak of the war in 1992,

6 there was practically power-sharing between the two national parties, the

7 SDS and the SDA?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. In April, the population started leaving Vlasenica, both Serbs

10 and Muslims; is that correct?

11 A. Yes. In the beginning of April 1992, when the notorious kiss of

12 the lady took place in Bijeljina, when Arkan came from Serbia to calm the

13 situation down in Bosnia, Fikret Abdic and Biljana Plavsic were in

14 Bijeljina as a delegation of Bosnia and Herzegovina to thank Arkan for

15 calming things down and stopping a war.

16 However, in Zvornik a conflict broke out and some people from

17 Zvornik went via Vlasenica to Kladanj. Also, conflicts broke out in

18 Bratunac, Bratunac was occupied. Also Vlasenica was occupied. So the

19 ring was closed, if you will. You could only travel towards Han Pijesak

20 where the population is 90 per cent Serb. You could travel in the

21 direction of Sekovici, 97 per cent Serb population. There's only one

22 Muslim village. And you could travel in the direction of Serbia.

23 Ethnic Serbs, namely women and children who were ethnic Serbs,

24 started going to Serbia. We stayed there. They returned once Vlasenica

25 was occupied. However, we stayed on in a ghetto. Mr. Stojanovic, we

Page 2781

1 could not leave without a special pass. This special pass --

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear

4 Mr. Stojanovic.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you please repeat what you

6 said because your microphone was not activated.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Q. I'm going ask you about that in relations to the passes. You

9 spoke about that during your examination-in-chief, and I would kindly ask

10 you to focus on the question that I put.

11 Also, would you agree with me that you noticed the Serb

12 population moving from Kladanj towards the territory of Serbia in that

13 period of time?

14 A. I heard and saw a certain number of women and children at the bus

15 station in Vlasenica. They said that they came from Kladanj and that

16 they were on their way to Serbia.

17 Q. Perhaps the most prominent leader of the Serb people in the area

18 of Vlasenica at that point in time was Mr. Stanic, and Mr. Redzic was the

19 most prominent leader of the Bosniak or Muslim people. Do these two

20 names ring a bell?

21 A. I remember Mr. Stanic very well. Also Mr. Redzic. Both of them

22 came to the positions they held in the municipality after the multi-party

23 elections took place.

24 Q. Do you recall, and did you receive any information to this

25 effect, namely, that these two men as leaders of political parties that

Page 2782

1 participate in government in Vlasenica went to Tuzla at one point in time

2 calling upon the people of Vlasenica to return?

3 A. I don't know whether the two of them went to Tuzla, but I know

4 that they did say through the media that they were calling upon the

5 people who went to Tuzla to return and that, otherwise, they would lose

6 their property and their jobs.

7 Q. That's a proclamation that was signed by the leaders of both the

8 Bosniak, that is to say, Muslim party, the SDA, and the Serb party, the

9 SDS?

10 A. I heard that on television, Mr. Stojanovic. Now, who signed

11 this, I really don't know.

12 Q. If you heard this proclamation, could you conclude on that basis

13 that the aim was to continue living together in Vlasenica?

14 A. Regrettably, I stayed in Vlasenica, but I could not come to the

15 conclusion that that was a life together in co-existence.

16 Q. The political leadership of the Muslim people had already left

17 Vlasenica by the 21st of April. They went towards Tuzla and Kladanj; is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The unit of the JNA that on the 21st, or up to the 23rd at any

21 rate, came from Sekovici. Am I right?

22 A. From the direction of Sekovici.

23 Q. And, as you say in your statement - not to look at it now, you

24 will remember that - to the best of your recollection, it was headed by a

25 young man, a lieutenant, an ethnic Albanian; right?

Page 2783

1 A. Yes. I heard this from a young soldier whose accent was from

2 Sandzak. He told me that his commander was Lieutenant Musa. Musa could

3 not be a Serb. Musa was an Albanian and he was in charge of that unit.

4 This young soldier was a regular soldier of the JNA, passing through

5 Vlasenica.

6 Q. You mentioned the fact that in April 1992 the decision had

7 already been passed to declare Bosnia-Herzegovina an independent state?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On the basis of what you know from Vlasenica, was that in

10 accordance with the will of the Serb people or, rather, your neighbours

11 that you talked to and were in communication with?

12 A. The Serbs had a plebescite; the Muslims had a referendum. The

13 Serbs were in favour of staying in Yugoslavia and that was demonstrated

14 in the plebescite and the Muslims, or, rather, all the rest were in

15 favour of an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 Q. Can we agree that this was a period during which two constituent

17 peoples of Bosnia-Herzegovina had totally opposed opinions about the

18 state they wanted to live in?

19 A. Yes. They had two completely opposed positions.

20 Q. Let's now have a look at paragraph 6.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is in the

22 witness's statement, P207 is the number. We were mentioning

23 Lieutenant Musa earlier on. Let's have a look at paragraph 6. We'll

24 have a look at part of your statement, the part where you say that the

25 JNA started -- I'll just wait for it to turn up on the screen.

Page 2784

1 Q. Paragraph 6, halfway down the paragraph:

2 "The JNA started informing the people to surrender all their

3 weapons. I did not see any Muslims in that JNA unit, only Serbs."

4 Can you see that part? A little earlier you said according to

5 the information you had an Albanian was the officer in charge of that

6 unit. What I'm interested in is how it is that you know that there were

7 no members of other ethnic groups, so only Serbs.

8 A. Mr. Stojanovic, out of the people I recognised in those groups,

9 and I'm referring to my neighbours, my Serb neighbours, among them I

10 didn't see a single Muslim from Vlasenica. Those people who came from

11 other parts weren't familiar with the town. They didn't know where there

12 were more Muslim houses and where there were fewer Serbian ones. This is

13 why I said that I did not see a single Muslim.

14 Q. But can we agree that you do not know what ethnicity the members

15 of that JNA unit were, that unit that came to your place from some other

16 direction?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So you can't exclude the possibility that at that point in time

19 that unit, and an Albanian was in charge of it, as you said, you can't

20 exclude the possibility that there were perhaps members in that unit of a

21 different ethnic group?

22 A. I can't exclude that possibility, but of the people I knew their

23 ethnicity was Serbian.

24 Q. I'll deal with that later. You served in the JNA from 1984 to

25 1985; is that correct?

Page 2785

1 A. Yes. I was in Niksic.

2 Q. You were in Niksic in a unit that was a reconnaissance unit.

3 That's where you were trained?

4 A. Yes. I was in the reconnaissance unit.

5 Q. Can you remember who your officer was?

6 A. Captain Smajlovic, Shefkija [phoen] was my officer. Lieutenant

7 Radenko Tomovic, and Kosovac Boskovic.

8 Q. Can we agree that the JNA in 1985, seven years prior to the

9 events, was a multi-ethnic body; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, is there any dispute between the

12 parties that the 1985 the JNA was a multi-ethnic armed force? Is there

13 any dispute about it? I'm asking this question because apart from

14 matters not being in dispute to be avoided in the examination of a

15 witness, also the level of relevance of most of what you have dealt with

16 until now is rather unclear -- no, it's -- it is clear to us that the

17 level of relevance is low, very low.

18 Could you please start focussing on matters that are in dispute

19 and are of a high level of relevance.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour. I'm moving

22 in that direction.

23 Q. Having served in the army, I assume that you reported to the

24 Ministry of Defence in Vlasenica and you were given a war-time

25 assignment; isn't that correct?

Page 2786

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in accordance with that war-time assignment, you were issued

3 with appeals for training sessions or mobilisation?

4 A. I wasn't a member of such a unit. My assignment was in the fire

5 brigade in Vlasenica because I had joined the fire brigade as a child, I

6 had passed the exams, so my war-time assignment had to do with the

7 volunteer fire brigade in Vlasenica and I was a non-commissioned officer

8 there.

9 Q. I'm asking you this question for the following reason. At the

10 time, the first half of 1992, if you had received a call-up to report to

11 a JNA unit, would you have reported to such a unit?

12 A. Yes. Because, Mr. Stojanovic, my father was a member of the JNA.

13 He worked, he was employed by the JNA.

14 Q. Would your fellow Muslim citizens at the time in 1992, would they

15 have responded to a JNA -- the JNA call-up? Did they respond to the JNA

16 call-up?

17 A. Mr. Stojanovic, I can only speak for myself. I don't know about

18 the others.

19 Q. If I tell you that the general position was that it wasn't good

20 respond to the call-up and go to the JNA, that was the Muslim position in

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina, would you agree that that is correct?

22 A. Mr. Stojanovic, some military documents were taken in Vlasenica.

23 The SDA prohibited those documents, those military documents from being

24 taken away. Or, rather, there were demonstrations, peaceful

25 demonstrations. As to whether someone responded the call-up, I don't

Page 2787

1 know. Did anyone summon anyone to join up? I don't know. But I know

2 that I myself, given my position, given my attitude, I know that I would

3 have responded to that call-up, to such a call-up.

4 Q. Thank you. But it is in that context that I want to conclude my

5 questions about this area. In April 1992, the reason for which there

6 were no Muslims in the reserve and regular JNA force was the fact that

7 the JNA didn't want to join those units, didn't want to respond to the

8 call-ups; is that correct?

9 A. I don't know whether you have such information. I didn't have

10 any such information, so I can't say whether that's correct or not.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Muslims did not want

12 to respond to the call-up.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Very well. Let's have a look at paragraph 6 again.

15 You say --

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, P207, paragraph 6

17 is what we are looking in the following sentence.

18 Q. You say:

19 "After the weapons had been collected, Serb shops and bars began

20 to open."

21 Can you see that part?

22 A. Yes, I can.

23 Q. Could you tell the Court what sort of weapons were collected by

24 the JNA and from whom?

25 A. Mr. Stojanovic, Your Honours, the weapons were collected from

Page 2788

1 people of Muslim ethnicity. The JNA was looking for legal and illegal

2 weapons. They wanted such weapons to be surrendered at the time. I know

3 that the legal weapons people had were hunting rifles, sports weapons,

4 and pistols. As for rifles and automatic weapons, it wasn't possible to

5 legally to have such weapons. Neither side could legally have such

6 weapons, the Serbs, the Muslims, or anyone else. The Territorial Defence

7 had such weapons, as well as the police and the army.

8 Q. Do you know - because this is what you say in your statement - do

9 you know what sort of weapons were involved after they had been

10 collected? What sort of weapons did the JNA collect?

11 A. As I have said, they were looking for legal and illegally

12 possessed weapons.

13 Q. When you say they collected illegal weapons, what do you mean?

14 A. I said legal and illegal weapons. Both types of weapons.

15 Illegal weapons are all weapons that you possess without a permit issued

16 by the public security station in Vlasenica. In fact, this was done

17 through the court.

18 And let me just add something else, Mr. Stojanovic. While

19 television Novi Sad was operational there was a broadcast from Vlasenica

20 and they showed a mass of weapons, hunting rifles, carbines - that's a

21 hunting weapon - and they showed two automatic weapons and one Skorpion,

22 and they said that these were weapons that had been prepared to kill

23 Serbs with. The Novi Sad television showed that in April 1992, broadcast

24 this in April 1992.

25 Q. I wanted to ask you about this. Sir, do you know from which part

Page 2789

1 of Vlasenica municipality these weapons were collected?

2 A. I don't know which part of Vlasenica they were collected in.

3 Q. And given what you said, when they asked -- when they were

4 looking for weapons, do you know whether the SDA did issue weapons in

5 Vlasenica?

6 A. I have heard about that, but I never saw such things myself.

7 Because as I wasn't a member of the party, nor was anyone else from my

8 family a member of that party, even if there was such information, it

9 would have been concealed from me.

10 I'd only like to add one other thing, Mr. Stojanovic. I

11 socialised with a Serb. We were very good friends. So if they had had

12 anything, they would have concealed this from me.

13 Q. Thank you. Let's now have a look at paragraph 28 in your

14 statement.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 28, Your Honours, in

16 the B/C/S and in the English version.

17 Q. While we're waiting for it to turn up on the screen,

18 Mr. Osmanovic, we were taking about the events concerning the part of

19 Vlasenica called Drum. Would you, first of all, tell the Court where

20 that part of Vlasenica municipality is located, where Drum is located.

21 A. Drum is 1 kilometre from Vlasenica, Your Honours. It's behind

22 the "boksit" sports stadium or, rather, it's behind the Muslim cemetery

23 called Rakite. There were two Serbian houses in that village. All the

24 other houses were Muslim. Piskavice, Dzamdzici, and Bare were the other

25 villages in the vicinity, and then the municipality extended in the

Page 2790

1 direction of other villages. So that is the closest suburb to Vlasenica.

2 The suburb that is closest to Vlasenica.

3 Q. If I have understood you correctly, this area was inhabited by

4 Muslims almost exclusively?

5 A. Yes. There were only two Serbian families there.

6 Q. Somewhere in the middle of your statement, you say that at the

7 beginning of the conflict in Bijeljina, before the JNA arrived Vlasenica,

8 at the cross-roads where the road leads to Drum, there was a Muslim

9 check-point.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Is this information you personally had?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You forgot to switch on your microphone with your

15 previous question, Mr. Stojanovic.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll repeat the question for the

17 sake of the transcript. I do apologise.

18 Q. Mr. Osmanovic, my question was as follows. I was quoting your

19 words. As you said, at the cross-roads where the road leads to Drum,

20 there was a Muslim check-point. And my question is whether you had

21 direct information on the existence of this check-point?

22 A. My answer was: Yes.

23 Q. What did you personally see? What sort of a check-point was it?

24 A. There were young men who lived in Drum there, and they would not

25 allow certain individuals whom they did not know to pass through, because

Page 2791

1 they knew who lived in Piskavice, Drum, Zekici, Pusumac [phoen]. The

2 people who lived in those areas, Serbs and Muslims, could pass through

3 without hindrance, but those who were not local inhabitants could not

4 pass through. They were not armed but they did not let them pass

5 through.

6 Q. You say this was sometime around the beginning of the conflict in

7 Bijeljina. To the best of your recollection, since I am from Bijeljina,

8 I'd like to ask you when this conflict in Bijeljina took place?

9 A. It was at the beginning of April, Mr. Stojanovic, at the time of

10 Ramadan and after Ramadan in 1992. The conflict in Bijeljina started

11 when Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, arrived. Television footage has been

12 shown about this event --

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

14 I'd like to confer with my client for a moment. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

16 [Defence counsel confer]

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Q. Perhaps you heard what we were saying, but we have to confirm

19 that the events in Bijeljina occurred, as you say, at the beginning of

20 April 1992.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. We don't want to mix this up with the time of the religious

23 festival. It's for the sake of the transcript.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, this having been clarified, whether

25 you come from Bijeljina or from whatever other place is irrelevant and

Page 2792

1 should not be included in your questions.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will bear that in

4 mind, Your Honour.

5 Q. When you say that that check-point was just before the Drum

6 settlement, you're not referring to the road. You're referring to a part

7 of the place of Vlasenica; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. Drum in Turkish means "road," but it doesn't mean "road."

9 I wasn't referring to a road, I was referring to the settlement. It was

10 about 200 metres away at a cross-roads where the road forks off for Drum

11 and for the village of Kula.

12 Q. How is it possible that in that period, that is to say, the

13 beginning of April 1992, someone, and, as you say, he is a civilian,

14 takes over the authority of the state and allows someone to go down that

15 part of the road?

16 A. Mr. Stojanovic, someone gave himself the right to place a

17 check-point at Drum and also at Tisca. I saw that when I came from

18 Sarajevo, or, rather, from Breza. When the police brought me from

19 Kladanj to Vlasenica; that is to say, myself and the young men who were

20 at the police school in Vrace. I arrived together with them, and at

21 Tisca I saw a check-point that was held by the Serbs who were armed,

22 whereas in Drum there were two people -- there were people in two

23 vehicles. I did not see any weapons, though. Who allowed both of them

24 to do this, I really don't know.

25 Q. However, if I understand you correctly, in view of your own

Page 2793

1 position, your own views, you never supported either one of the

2 check-points that you came across.

3 A. I did not support either one.

4 Q. And you would agree that it is precisely that kind of thing that

5 turned certain parts of the municipality of Vlasenica into a ghetto, as

6 you had put it?

7 A. Acts like that contributed to a rise in tensions and even more

8 intolerance. A ghetto, as I've already said. Regrettably, I stayed on

9 there and I lived there together with my family.

10 Q. I'm asking you this because of the following sentence in your

11 statement. Could you please explain that to the court.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think -- so, Your Honour,

13 paragraph 28. It's where this -- this witness's statement continues.

14 Q. So you say this and you can see this, Mr. Osmanovic.

15 "I think that at the beginning of the conflict the village of

16 Drum was better organised than the Muslims in Vlasenica."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What were you trying to say when you stated that the village of

19 Drum was better organised?

20 A. At least they knew who was coming to their village. Who was

21 coming, who was passing there. Whoever wanted to came to Vlasenica and

22 they did whatever they wanted to do.

23 Mr. Stojanovic, when the war started in 1992, a vast number of

24 people all of a sudden showed up in military uniforms with weapons at the

25 hotel there in Vlasenica, the Panorama Hotel; that is to say, before the

Page 2794

1 JNA arrived. For that reason, I'm trying to say that they were much

2 better organised than others because they knew who was coming and who was

3 passing there. They did not forbid ethnic Serbs and Muslims to go do

4 their homes, but they did not allow people from other areas to stay in

5 their village.

6 Q. In view of what you've said just now, and you believe that to be

7 the position of the residents of Drum, what would have happened if that

8 JNA unit passed down that road?

9 A. The JNA unit did come down that road with an APC, and they parked

10 it in a Muslim cemetery there.

11 Q. Were you informed at any point in time that there was any kind of

12 shooting from that part of Vlasenica or from the village of Drum? That

13 there was any shooting at the JNA units.

14 A. I haven't been informed of any such thing.

15 Q. Were you informed that precisely from that area, from Drum,

16 weapons had been taken, those that had been distributed?

17 A. Yes. When the army asked for weapons to be surrendered, legal

18 and illegal weapons, that pertained to the village of Drum and the

19 village of Piskavice and the neighbourhood and the town of Vlasenica. So

20 it referred to the town and the outskirts. The only part of the

21 municipality of Vlasenica that did not respond to that was the local

22 commune of Cerska. They did not abide by that all the way up until

23 February 1993. They were totally encircled.

24 Q. Now you are leading me to ask this question. You say that Cerska

25 was totally encircled?

Page 2795

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And if I were to put it to you that Cerska was part of the

3 corridor where the population and the army moved all the way up until

4 March 1993 from Srebrenica, Pobudje, Konjevic Polje, Cerska, Snagovo,

5 Sapna, Godus, and Tuzla, would I be right?

6 A. Cerska was a territory -- I mean, my father hails from Cerska.

7 My mother had been expelled from Vlasenica to Cerska. My sister was in

8 Cerska. They were there until February 1993. From there, they passed

9 through Maricici, Snagovo, Liplje, Kamenica, Jasenica, to the area of

10 Medjedja, rather the municipality of Sapna, and they arrived Tuzla. The

11 others, the remainder of the population went to Srebrenica. So Cerska

12 was empty, it remained empty.

13 Q. So would we agree in view of the locations that you spoke about,

14 that it was only in February or March 1993 that Cerska came under the

15 control of the Army of Republika Srpska?

16 A. In March. Or in February, because my family members left in

17 February.

18 Q. Thank you. Just one more sentence before the break, or, rather,

19 one question. You heard of the killing of reserve Captain Savo Bacic in

20 Begici?

21 A. Savo Bacic personally and I did not hear of his killing.

22 Savo Bacic was a reserve captain first class and he worked in the

23 Territorial Defence Staff of the municipality of Vlasenica.

24 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

25 A. No.

Page 2796

1 Q. Were you informed that in that period, in April 1992, the village

2 of Pepic between Kladanj, Sekovici, and Vlasenica had been torched?

3 A. I have not been informed about that, although I know where the

4 village is.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Stojanovic, please.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, please.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Since I'm now going to move onto

8 a different topic, perhaps this would be the right moment to take a

9 break, Your Honours. With your leave.

10 JUDGE ORIE: It's the right time to take a break.

11 First, could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

12 [The witness stands down]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, before we take a break, the Chamber

14 thought that the core of the testimony of this witness was about what he

15 experienced in the camps, in prisons, about what was done to those

16 persons. It seems that you're not challenging, in any way, what happened

17 there.

18 Is that what -- is that well understood? Because we hear a lot

19 about background events. May I -- it's not quite clear to the Chamber

20 yet whether that would explain why people behaved as they did or whether

21 that would justify what the behaviour of what -- of those who acted in

22 the camps and the prisons. It's not clear to the Chamber. But we

23 noticed that it's all about background and nothing about the core of the

24 testimony of this witness, as we find it in his statement. Is that well

25 understood?

Page 2797

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. And with your

2 leave, I have hereby concluded the background part of the examination of

3 this witness. Now we are going to deal with all the three -- the

4 detention centres where he was. We'd just like to clarify certain

5 questions that he had raised. We're not going to be dealing with

6 background any longer.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And may I then take it that you will be able to

8 conclude that within one hour. Is that well understood?

9 Because we now know the name of the commander of the unit under

10 which the witness served when he was in the JNA. The Chamber doesn't

11 know what to do with that information, but at least we now know it.

12 Relevance of it is very low.

13 I earlier indicated that we would expect you to focus on more

14 relevant issues. You said you would come to that. The Chamber wonders

15 whether you actually did or not. You have one hour after the break, and

16 please focus on relevant issues, relevant issues that are in dispute

17 between the parties.

18 We take a break, and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 [The witness takes the stand]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Osmanovic.

Page 2798

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Can we continue, Mr. Osmanovic?

5 A. Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

6 Q. Please look at paragraph 20 of your statement, 2-0, P207. I have

7 a question -- a few questions about this statement. But first of all,

8 would I be right in saying that on 22 July 1993, you were exchanged?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. After that, you gave several statements to the authorities of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You gave statements on the 23rd, two days after you were

14 released, or, rather, exchanged to the security organ of the 2nd Corps of

15 the Bosnia-Herzegovinian army in Lukavac. Do you remember?

16 A. I remember that various security agencies came and rallied us

17 together and took statements.

18 Q. Your next statement was given on the 27th July, and another one

19 on the 4th of August 1993; do you recall that?

20 A. I don't recall the dates, but I know that they did come.

21 Q. We will show them. I only wanted to get authorisation.

22 So in paragraph 20 you describe at length your experience and

23 the -- your presence at the murder of Mr. Ambeskovic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Look at the last few sentences in that paragraph. You say, after

Page 2799

1 describing the shot:

2 "During this incident, there were no other shadows in the door.

3 I heard no other voices or anyone approaching the door. When Mumovic

4 opened the door, he appeared to be alone. I believe Mumovic acted alone,

5 as the incident took place very quickly."

6 Now I'm asking you: Do you still stand by your assertion that

7 this incident at the time when you were detained in Vlasenica happened in

8 the way you described in this paragraph?

9 A. I gave this statement to The Hague Tribunal. It is a very

10 thorough statement. We went over every segment chronologically, and I do

11 stand behind this statement.

12 Q. I'm asking you this for the following reason.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at 1D260, Your

14 Honours, and focus on the central part of this document.

15 Q. You will now see, Mr. Osmanovic, it is your statement given on

16 the 4th of the August, 1983 [as interpreted], to the War Crimes Bureau in

17 Lukavac. Can you see that?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Did you misspeak or is there just an error in the

20 transcription. It must be 1993, I take it.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I thought I

22 said 1993, but maybe I misspoke.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the bottom of

25 the page in B/C/S.

Page 2800

1 Q. Is this your signature?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then --

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move to the next page

5 in English so that the Court can follow, and stay with this current page

6 in the B/C/S. We should focus on the last few lines in B/C/S which

7 correspond to this paragraph in the English version we see on the screen.

8 Q. Sir, concerning the same incident, you say on the 4th of August,

9 1993, after being exchanged, the following: Among other things, you say

10 that Mr. Ambeskovic, who was a retired public security officer in

11 Zvornik, succumbed to Chetnik torture and beating by Zoran Viskovic, also

12 known as Vjetar. Do you see that?

13 A. This copy is very bad, I mean the B/C/S one. So I can't see what

14 is written and I don't understand English. Dzemal Ambeskovic, a retired

15 policeman, traffic policeman from Zvornik, son of Kadro, and mother

16 Tamila, was politically involved man in the preparation of the referendum

17 for a sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina. Zoran Viskovic beat him - and it's

18 true that he beat him - and as you say, he succumbed -- he succumbed in

19 the same police station when Stevo Mumovic -- that man would have died

20 any way. He was too badly beaten up. But since I can't read the B/C/S

21 here, I stand by my statement that it was Stevo Mumovic who deprived

22 Mr. Ambeskovic of life.

23 Q. With your leave, could we just enlarge the last four lines in the

24 B/C/S version because it is successfully translated into English. I will

25 read it and you can follow.

Page 2801

1 It says that you stated and signed that Mr. Ambeskovic

2 succumbed - you can follow the text - to Chetnik torture and beating by

3 Zoran Viskovic. Therefore, my question: Which of your two statements

4 would be true today?

5 A. The fact is that Dzemal Ambeskovic was killed by a bullet. As to

6 the beating, he was already in great distress and suffering from the

7 beating. Zoran Viskovic beat him the most badly. He simply tortured him

8 beyond any reason. Ambeskovic had once released to go home, but he got

9 lost around the village of Turalici and went back. It was his last trip.

10 He was my good neighbour.

11 When he was released from the police station, he was so black and

12 blue, covered in bruises and lesions. There was just one fence between

13 us. I -- I doubt that the man could have survived this beating even if

14 he had not stayed in prison.

15 Q. Let's try to move on more quickly. So it's not true that he was

16 killed by the beating from Zoran Viskovic. He was killed by the shot

17 fired by Stevo Mumovic.

18 A. Yes, that's what finally killed him.

19 Q. Thank you. Now look at paragraph 17.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see P207 again in

21 e-court, please. Paragraph 17.

22 Q. While we're waiting for this to be uploaded, could we agree that,

23 on the 22nd May 1992, you were arrested for the first time? You were

24 arrested by policemen from the police station in Vlasenica; right?

25 A. None of them were active-duty policemen, Mr. Stojanovic. Two of

Page 2802

1 them wore reserve police uniforms. Those were blue. One had a

2 camouflage uniform. But they were armed and they belonged to that police

3 station.

4 Q. Thank you. That's what I wanted to clear up. Now look, in this

5 paragraph 17 of your statement - we'll do this very quickly. You say

6 that Bastah, Rade Milic, and in proofing you changed this name to

7 identify Deuric Zoran, son of Zoran.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The information about Rade Milic is something you did not mention

10 in your earlier statements; correct?

11 A. I didn't mention Rade Milic because that man acted as a

12 professional towards all of his neighbours. His brother lived across the

13 street from me. The man was very professional. I had no reason to

14 identify him.

15 Q. So in your earlier statements, where you described this event,

16 you did not provide full information. Instead, you said it was an

17 unidentified uniformed member of the police.

18 A. You see, I said even here that I saw in the car a man I didn't

19 know aged around 30. Later, I found out his name was Rajkenovic [phoen].

20 They came for me in a police car.

21 Q. And they took you to the police station where you spent the time

22 from 22nd May to 2nd June, when you were transferred to the municipal

23 prison. You spent 17 days there?

24 A. I was transferred to Susica camp on the 18th.

25 Q. We have a misunderstanding about that too, but before that let me

Page 2803

1 ask you: You were moved to the municipal prison at the intercession of

2 Boro Mijic, a Serb from Vlasenica who knew you?

3 A. All the active-duty policemen in Vlasenica knew me because the

4 fire brigade, of which I was a member, and the police station were in the

5 same building.

6 Q. The conditions in the municipal prison were fair and more decent

7 than in the previous prison?

8 A. Yes. Especially when Mr. Sokanovic visited who introduced

9 himself of the warden of the prison. In his presence we were treated

10 correctly. We were able to go to the toilet. We could air the cells.

11 We could receive food brought to us from home. But without him, it was

12 all a lottery. It depended on whether somebody dared to do something or

13 not.

14 Q. You were told that you were being investigated for possession of

15 weapons or any other reason for being on that list you had seen in the

16 hands of your friend?

17 A. I saw it because a friend showed it to me. I was never

18 questioned about the circumstances that could have led to my name being

19 included on that list. I wasn't told anything. And when we were moved

20 to the municipal prison, we had gotten out of the hell of the police

21 station. We had better capability of receiving food from home, and

22 sometimes we would go out to do some loading or unloading and be there at

23 the looting of Bosniak houses and property, where we also got some food.

24 Q. But you did have information that, under some circumstances

25 unknown to you, and by people also unknown to you, you were put on that

Page 2804

1 list under number 194 as a person who was in illegal possession of

2 weapons.

3 A. Yes. Somebody must have reported me, but I really never had any

4 weapons, especially not illegally.

5 Q. All right. I've move to the next area. You mentioned two names.

6 Mr. Mumovic, was he a member of the police?

7 A. Stevan Mumovic was born in born in Ricica village, Han Pijesak

8 municipality, before the war. He had served a sentence in the prison of

9 Foca. He had killed a man, Ferid Bemic, by cutting him with a knife.

10 And before the war started, he showed up in uniform with the emblem that

11 said "war-time police."

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please leave a pause between

13 question and answer and repeat his question.

14 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.

15 Could you repeat your question. And the interpreters invite you

16 to make a pause between question and answer.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll repeat my question for the

18 record.

19 Q. Did Mr. Viskovic belong to the same police force, the one you

20 mentioned also?

21 A. Mr. Viskovic was an employee of a trade company, Polet. He wore

22 a uniform and he was in the police station until 1990 -- in 1992. Until

23 1992, he had worked in this company, Polet.

24 Q. So would I be right in saying that you were driven in a police

25 car by policemen wearing uniforms to the police station in Vlasenica.

Page 2805

1 Then you spent some time there. You were moved to the municipal prison,

2 and there the policemen guarded you.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said that on the 18th of June, 1992, you were moved to

5 Susica.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Let's just clear up this point.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at 1D260 in

9 e-court. It's the statement we had just looked at. Page 2. And page 2

10 in English. In fact, we need page 3 in English.

11 Q. Here, you say, if can you find the place, it's paragraph 4, you

12 say that on the 19th of June, 1992, we were transferred with 11 or 12

13 people to the Susica camp.

14 Can you see that?

15 A. Yes. I said that on the 18th or 19th, well, give or take a day,

16 it didn't matter whether I was in Susica or in the prison at the time,

17 but we were transferred in Dragan Bastah's lorry.

18 Q. I want to know what date you think it is now.

19 A. The 18th. Because later I obtained other information.

20 Q. Thank you. And now I'd like to deal with what happened in the

21 Susica centre.

22 Do you remember that you spoke about the prisoner Handzic from

23 Ledici being killed?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You said -- we can follow this.

Page 2806

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we have a look at

2 paragraph 38 in P207, Your Honours.

3 Q. We can see that Dragan Nikolic was responsible; is that correct?

4 A. Yes. Dragan Nikolic, also known as Jenki.

5 Q. Then in paragraph 33 you describe the abuse of

6 Mr. Reuf Rasidagic. Do you remember that?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. In the mid-part of that statement you say that you saw Nikolic

9 beating Reuf. "Reuf was close to me in the hangar. Only Nikolic beat

10 him."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So to deal with this, let's now have a look at paragraph 42 in

13 the very same statement. And in that paragraph, you again describe

14 everything that you witnessed in Susica. You say with regard to the

15 abuse that Galib Smajlovic and Dzevad Saric were subjected to -- can you

16 see that?

17 A. Yes, I've found that.

18 Q. You say that they were beaten or, rather, taken out by

19 Ljubinko Djuric, Nikolic, Ljubisa Vukotic, and Sinisa Orasanin. Could

20 you now tell the Court whether Mr. Dzevad Saric succumbed to the wounds

21 inflicted in this beating?

22 A. After he had been beaten, Dzevad Saric was returned to the

23 hangar, as well as Galib Smajlovic. Galib Smajlovic was shaking as a

24 result of the beating. Meho Kuljancic put salt dressings on Dzevad's

25 wounds -- on Galib's wounds, but Dzevad was taken out with

Page 2807

1 Kozarovic Muharem on the same evening, and also with Zekic and

2 Perhad [phoen] Begovic. They were taken outside and after the beating he

3 was killed.

4 Q. I would like to deal with an inconsistency here. Could we now

5 have a look at 1D261. Transcript 1D261. We've checked this in the

6 database. We don't have an English version but I'll do my best. I will

7 only read out one sentence. And we will have the B/C/S version.

8 Sir, it says the 27th of July, 1993. And that's the date on

9 which you gave the State Security Service in Tuzla this statement. Do

10 you remember giving this statement?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Let's have a look at page 2, please. I apologise. Page 3. We

13 can both have a look at it now. It's halfway down the page. You

14 describe the event in question and you say the following:

15 "The following night Nikolic beat Smajlovic, Galib and Savic,

16 Dzevad, who succumbed to the beatings."

17 Would you agree with me that this does not tally with what you

18 said in your statement in paragraph 42? It's not consistent with what

19 you said there.

20 A. So what is at stake here is the following. When they were taken

21 out that evening, no shots could be heard. Only at the end. But you

22 could only hear screams. On that evening, I was taken out.

23 Unfortunately I raised my head when they were taking them out and

24 Zoran Obrenovic and Sladjan Pajic asked me who tried to flee. As I said,

25 I was sleeping. Dubenko [phoen] Djuric stood by my side and by my

Page 2808

1 brother's side. They took out Rasid Ferhatbegovic from Papraca, and that

2 evening only one shot could be heard. So he could have died only as a

3 result of the beating or because a knife had been used. Bullets -- or a

4 bullet was not used in any event.

5 Q. What I want to ask you about is the following. Having considered

6 everything you said in paragraphs 42 and 44 of your statement, P207, what

7 I would like to know is what is in fact is correct. Who was abusing him

8 at the time that he succumbed to his wounds?

9 A. When he succumbed to his wounds, Dubenko Djuric, Zoran Obrenovic,

10 Sladjan Pajic, son of Radislav, with a -- Zoran Obrenovic, son of Vojo

11 and Dragica was there. Those are the people I saw that evening when

12 those four individuals succumbed to the wounds inflicted on them.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you've asked the questions to the

14 witness. Could you tell me, because I have no English version of your --

15 the statement you just used, exactly where the inconsistency is found?

16 What exactly is different? Again, I can't re-read it, so -- I mean,

17 you've asked the witness, so therefore I'm seeking clarification so as to

18 better understand both your question and the answer the witness gave.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The question will be quite

20 concise now. Your Honours will remove the difficulty.

21 Q. In the statement of the 27th of July that I read out to you, you

22 said on the following evening Nikolic beat Smajlovic and Saric, Dzevad

23 who succumbed to the blows, with your leave. And in the statement that

24 you have given again today, you mentioned certain other names, names of

25 individuals who took Mr. Saric out, and you say they subjected him to

Page 2809

1 abuse. So my question was: What is, in fact, correct?

2 A. You have been given the answer, Mr. Stojanovic.

3 JUDGE ORIE: My problem is not, Mr. Stojanovic, to ask the

4 witness again. But where exactly the inconsistency is. I mean, is

5 beating someone excludeing that that person was taken out, or -- I do not

6 see exactly - also because I can't re-read it - where exactly the

7 inconsistency is and what it exactly is.

8 Is it that you say you can't be beaten if you are taken out or is

9 it that you say it is the persons or -- what exactly is the

10 inconsistency?

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't want to

12 testify, but the inconsistency has to do with the identity of the person

13 who took Saric outside and inflicted wounds on him. So that's why I

14 wanted to clarify this.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think you have been provided with

16 the answer, Mr. Stojanovic.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Thank you. For the sake of the transcript, I'd like to repeat

19 that the correct answer would be that he was taken out by the individuals

20 you mentioned in paragraph 42 of your statement.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. We'll now move on and try and clear up certain other

23 issues, certain other inconsistencies.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I interrupt you for a moment. I really still

25 don't understand.

Page 2810

1 In paragraph 42 of the statement, P207, in the fourth line, I see

2 the name Nikolic there. In the sentence: "They were taken out by

3 Ljubinko Djuric," then the next name is Nikolic, and then

4 Ljubisa Vukotic. I see the name Nikolic. Where is the inconsistency?

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And Nikolic. Your Honours, I'll

6 just repeat a sentence from the statement that he provided on the 27th

7 of --

8 JUDGE ORIE: You explained to me, Mr. Stojanovic, that the

9 inconsistency was in the persons who had taken this man out. Now, you

10 read to us and you drew our attention to the two statements. You asked

11 the witness whether he remembered that he had given a statement. Then

12 you said, have a look at page 2, and you read to him the following:

13 "The following night Nikolic beat Smajlovic, Galib and Savic,

14 Dzevad, who succumbed to the beatings."

15 That line you read doesn't say a word about who took him out.

16 So, therefore, if you say the inconsistency is that in the one statement

17 another person took this man out, then at least in the second one there

18 is not a word about who took him out. Only about who had beaten him.

19 So therefore it's still, even after your explanation, it is not

20 clear to me where now exactly the inconsistency is. Not in the taking

21 out, because the second statement, the old statement, doesn't say

22 anything about it. Or it does, but we can't read it.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour,

24 because I also mentioned paragraph 44.

25 Could we have a look at P207 on the screen. I think it will then

Page 2811

1 be quite clear why I wanted to clarify this issue.

2 Q. You say --

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... before we do

4 that, Mr. Stojanovic, did I understand you well that you explained the

5 inconsistency to be in the person that had taken the man out? I think

6 that's what you said.

7 Would you agree with that?

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honours.

9 That's the first inconsistency that --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, no. I -- just wait for a second.

11 Do you also agree with me that the line that you read to the

12 witness, which is the only line this Chamber has heard because we have no

13 English translation, doesn't say a word about who took a person, the

14 persons, out?

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's also correct,

16 Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then there can be no inconsistency in this respect

18 and your explanation is unsatisfactory. And you should, on the basis of

19 what you tell us now, not have put to the witness that there is an

20 inconsistency.

21 Now if you want to further look at his statement, that's fine.

22 But I just focussed on what was unclear to me until now. I asked you for

23 an explanation. That explanation is - I think we agree on that - is not

24 valid. So please proceed, and refrain at least on this basis, putting to

25 the witness that there is an inconsistency.

Page 2812

1 You may proceed.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'll

3 return to this issue.

4 Q. To paragraphs 42 and 44 in your statement, Mr. Osmanovic, and I

5 think that we will try and deal with this contradiction. You say that:

6 "Ljubinko, Djuric, Nikolic, Ljubisa Vukotic, and Sinisa Orasanin,

7 and then some other guards took them out. All I could here were the

8 screams. Their screaming."

9 And then in paragraph 44 you -- you add that when they returned

10 Saric, and at one point in time the same guards went in, woke Saric up.

11 Obrenovic then told Saric to go outside. As soon as the door closed, I

12 heard a terrible scream. Can you see that?

13 A. Yes. It's the last part of paragraph 44.

14 Q. So my question is: Can you today tell us whether what you said

15 on the 27th is correct, what you said in the statement I have quoted

16 from? And in that statement you say that Nikolic beat Saric up and Saric

17 succumbed to the blows.

18 A. Galib Smajlovic and Dzevad Saric were beaten by Nikolic,

19 Mr. Stojanovic. Dzevad Saric was black and blue. He was black and blue.

20 When this other group of guards came, and that's what I referred to in

21 paragraph 44, when they came and took him outside, all you could hear was

22 this terrible screaming, a scream, the kind of which you can only hear in

23 horror films. Dzevad Saric never returned to the hangar in the camp

24 again.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 2813

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. You cannot say whether he succumbed to the wounds that were

3 inflicted by Nikolic.

4 A. Yes. But the wounds were in the form of hematoma.

5 Q. Thank you. In the management structure of Susica, Veljko Basic,

6 in your view, was the warden of Susica; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. He was a policeman, right?

9 A. He was a retired policeman of the public security station of

10 Vlasenica who was reactivated in 1992.

11 Q. The commander of security was the mentioned Dragan Nikolic, a

12 member of the special police unit that was under the commander of Mico

13 Kraljevic; is that correct?

14 A. Dragan Nikolic, nicknamed Jenki, introduced him as the commander,

15 as God All Mighty, as the Alpha and Omega of the prison, and that he had

16 only one commander.

17 Q. While you were in Susica - and that was those 12 days, if I

18 understood you correctly?

19 A. Until the 30th of June.

20 Q. From the 18th or 19th until the 30th of the June. Was it your

21 understanding that the facility was under the control of the police in

22 Vlasenica?

23 A. Mr. Stojanovic, since this facility was frequented by one and

24 all, whenever anybody felt like it, people who had weapons, this was

25 under the command of Dragan Nikolic, Jenki, but there was also people in

Page 2814

1 uniform, in S and B uniforms who came there, and who, during the course

2 of the day, took a group of people out to work in the garrison that was

3 established in the old high school in Vlasenica. Also people who were in

4 camouflage uniforms came. They came to work on cleaning the town. Also

5 people who wore dark blue uniforms came. No regular policemen ever came

6 there, people who had been employed at the regular police station before.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I have the same question for the

9 inconsistency between 42 and 44. You've asked the witness about it.

10 Tell us exactly where the inconsistency is found, to better understand

11 your question.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due

15 respect, in the statement that was admitted into evidence as P207, in

16 paragraphs 42 and 44, the witness mentioned the names of four persons,

17 including a man with the last name of Nikolic who took Mr. Saric out.

18 That's paragraph 42. And after they took him out, this witness said that

19 he only heard screams.

20 In paragraph 44, this witness says - and he stood by that when

21 answering my questions today - that these very same guards went in again,

22 woke up Saric, and now he adds another name of a name who has -- a person

23 who has the last name of Obrenovic. And this same Obrenovic said to

24 Saric to go out.

25 Your Honour, in the statement that I quoted - and, unfortunately,

Page 2815

1 I don't have the English version - and that's perhaps at the core of this

2 misunderstanding that I've caused --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. First of all, you suggested

4 that there was an inconsistency between paragraph 42 and 44, but I now do

5 understand that these paragraphs are inconsistent with the other

6 statement.

7 Now, again, that other statement, the part you read to us, was

8 not saying anything about who took out who at what point in time from

9 where. If there is any portion you would like to address in this

10 respect, I would invite you to read that part of the statement which is

11 then inconsistent with paragraphs 42 and 44. You may have noticed that

12 42 and 44, that 42 describes what happened on the 25th, and that, at that

13 moment, the person taken -- persons taken out were -- were returning.

14 And then what is described in paragraph 44 is what happened on the 26th

15 of June. So, therefore, it is a -- there are two occasions where

16 Mr. Saric apparently was taken out.

17 But now give us the line or the portion of the statement dealing

18 with who took out Mr. Saric. And then, of course, we are interested also

19 to know when, but ... tell us.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll try, Your Honour. If I

21 may, I'll just repeat the part that is of interest to me here.

22 Q. Mr. Osmanovic, please follow what I'm saying. He says here:

23 "During the course of the night" --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you are at this moment informing the

25 Chamber. You are not questioning, you're not examining the witness. The

Page 2816

1 Chamber asked clarification. Read to us the lines which, in your view,

2 create the inconsistency. The previous line did not; we agreed on that.

3 Now please read the line which is inconsistent with what is found in 42

4 and 44. And tell the interpreters and also us where approximately we

5 find it in this B/C/S original.

6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, maybe could we have 1D261 on the

7 screens, because I still see the statement P207.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We now move to -- to the document which is

9 only available in B/C/S.

10 Please read it, Mr. Stojanovic.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 3 in the B/C/S version.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Where approximately?

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll just read that sentence.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could we please have a

15 reference.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first of all, what is page 3 in e-court is, at

17 least in my version, not what appears on our screen at this moment.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 3. Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then where? Page 3, in my e-court

20 version, starts with the date 30.06.1992. Apparently I'm looking at a

21 different page 3... okay. Let's -- yes, I look at the other screen.

22 Where now do we find it, what you wanted to say?

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely where the cursor is

24 now, where it says:

25 "The next night, Nikolic beat up Galib Smajlovic and Dzevad Saric

Page 2817

1 who succumbed to the blows."

2 So in the statement that the witness gave and that was admitted

3 into evidence in this case, there is no mention of Nikolic being the

4 person who inflicted the blows on him that -- the ones that he succumbed

5 to.

6 Also on the basis of Mr. Nikolic's plea agreement, I would like

7 to ask the witness to tell us what it is that is actually correct.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you there. You earlier said: So now it is

9 not who took him out but apparently who inflicted blows. And the -- let

10 me just see. Where do we know exactly which date we are talking about?

11 Because I see the 19th of June at the beginning of this paragraph. And

12 you said the next evening. I also see the 30th of June, 1992. But what

13 the next evening is is unclear to me when I'm not able to read this

14 paragraph.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That would be the next question

16 that I would like to deal with, Your Honours. But in view of the fact

17 that we haven't got a translation of this document, and --

18 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm asking you. I asked you to read out. You

19 read out a certain line, which is -- which the Chamber cannot understand

20 without being informed about the context.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I again read what you read.

23 "The next night."

24 Which night was that?

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If you're asking me,

Page 2818

1 Your Honours, according to what the witness stated, it would be the 20th.

2 Because he was brought in on the 19th. That's why I asked him when it

3 was that he was exactly brought to Susica.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I respond?

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With the permission of the

6 Court.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Not at this moment. I'm trying to clarify matters.

8 So you said that the night of the 20th apart from -- but that's

9 how you interpret it.

10 "... Nikolic beat up Galib Smajlovic and Dzevad Saric who

11 succumbed to the blows."

12 Could you now read the -- is this inconsistent with what was said

13 in paragraph 42 and 44? Is that what your view is?

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not going to

15 say that it is inconsistent but it's undefined, because in P207 the

16 witness says which persons took Mr. Saric out and nothing more than that,

17 except for him hearing screams. In the statement of the 27th, the

18 witness says that the following night Nikolic beat up Saric and that he

19 succumbed to the blows, not saying who it was that took him out. My

20 question has to do with this difference.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. There's no inconsistency.

22 You just want to explore what the basis of the witness is on certain

23 matters. Don't put non-existing inconsistencies to the witness. Ask the

24 questions which you would think would clarify the matter.

25 We are at the time where we usually take a break.

Page 2819

1 Mr. Stojanovic, how much time would you still need?

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With all due respect,

3 Your Honours, I will fit into those two hours that I had envisaged. And

4 my colleague from the Prosecution also had the extra 15 minutes this

5 morning. But now I'd like to deal with Batkovici and some questions that

6 are inconsistent in that respect.

7 JUDGE ORIE: My questions -- my question was: How much more time

8 would you need? Because you were not granted the two hours. I said

9 before the last break that you had one hour left because you paid so much

10 attention to irrelevant and mainly background information. How much time

11 would you still need, Mr. Stojanovic? That's my question.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, about 15 minutes.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Fifteen minutes are granted.

15 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 17 minutes

18 past 12.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if -- we would first like to have

23 the witness escorted into the courtroom.

24 Meanwhile, I would like to -- one second, please.

25 One of the statements was with a translation. I think that was

Page 2820

1 1D00261.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

4 JUDGE ORIE: It was 260. That is the statement given to the

5 Lukavac War Crimes Bureau.

6 Mr. Stojanovic, is that an official translation? Because I

7 noticed that exactly on the relevant line there was a slight difference

8 between what our interpreters gave us compared to what is in the written

9 translation. Therefore, I'm asking you whether the translation you

10 provided is an official translation or an unofficial translation. And if

11 it's an unofficial translation, by whom it was made.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this translation

13 with ER markings we received from the EDS, and I cannot say who the

14 author of the translation is, but we got it from the system, and it's not

15 our translation.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. D'Ascoli, could you please try to find out

17 whether that translation is generated by Prosecution or by CLSS.

18 MS. D'ASCOLI: We are. Just a second, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

20 Please be seated, Mr. Osmanovic. Sorry for being so impolite not

21 to address you when you entered the courtroom.

22 Mr. Stojanovic will now put further questions to you, but only

23 after Ms. D'Ascoli has provided us with further information.

24 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours. I just wanted to confirm that

25 we have the request translation and it is an official translation

Page 2821

1 provided from the OTP. Well, meaning, requested from the OTP.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because I'll deal with it at a later moment

3 and not in the presence of the witness.

4 Mr. Stojanovic.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We

6 shall try to fit within the time allocated to us.

7 Q. Mr. Osmanovic, we'll be dealing with the part of your testimony

8 that relates to Batkovici. You got there on the 30th June 1992; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You mentioned persons whom you remember mistreating prisoners.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You gave us the names of Fikret Smajlovic, Dzemal Zahirovic, and

13 Esad Bekric?

14 A. Yes. Muslim men.

15 Q. What I want to know is were they there as prisoners or on some

16 other mission?

17 A. Your Honours and Mr. Stojanovic, they were there as prisoners.

18 Dzemal Zahirovic, also know as Spajzer or Django, is a Roma born in

19 Zenica, and I happened to first see him in Vlasenica in the Susica camp.

20 The other one was from Brcko municipality. He wore camouflage trousers

21 and he acted as some sort of chief among the prisoners. Esad Bekric was

22 also brought in a uniform. Somebody said he was part of the so-called

23 Tuzla column, that he was from Tuzla.

24 Q. Do you know that before the cantonal court in Tuzla there was a

25 trial and Fikret Smajlovic was found guilty and convicted?

Page 2822

1 A. I don't know about his being convicted, but I know that he had

2 been taken into custody.

3 Q. Do you know that against Dzemal Zahirovic there was also a trial

4 before the cantonal court in Zenica?

5 A. I only heard about that.

6 Q. Yesterday in response to a question from the Prosecution you

7 mentioned - and that was page 2766, line 10 of yesterday's transcript -

8 you said that after the mistreatment Ejub Smajic was one of the men who

9 died. You remember that question?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you know that man, where he was from?

12 A. He was brought from Bijeljina, together with Zlatar. We were

13 told he was from Bijeljina and that he had a private catering business.

14 Q. Did you see his mistreatment or killing?

15 A. I saw him beaten up every day, and I saw him dead.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now ask, Your Honours,

17 that we see in e-court 1D267. And before we see this document, I should

18 like to inform you that it is an indictment we received last night from

19 Bijeljina against four persons relating to the events in the Batkovic

20 camp and the proceedings that are ongoing against these persons.

21 Unfortunately, we have it only in B/C/S, and I will read some

22 representative passages out.

23 If we could see the second page, please.

24 Q. Sir, in this document - and this is an indictment issued by the

25 prosecutor's office in Bijeljina against four persons - these persons are

Page 2823

1 charged, among other things, you can see this in the middle, with beating

2 the following people, the most badly: Ekrem Cudic; Husein Cudiz, known

3 as Zlatar; Ferid Zecevic, known as Professor; Alija Gusalic, nicknamed

4 Konjanik --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Before you start reading documents, again they're

6 not available in English, shouldn't we first ask the witness whether he's

7 aware of any proceedings, what light he could shed on it? It's unclear

8 to me what direction you would like to go and I'd like to know.

9 So let's first ask whether the witness is aware of any ongoing

10 proceedings at this moment before the court counsel just mentioned that

11 is in Bijeljina.

12 Are you aware of --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, whatever is there in the proceedings,

15 Mr. Stojanovic, ask him anything you would like to ask him. But let's

16 first see whether you can ask these questions without referring to court

17 documents. And I could imagine that if they are relevant at any point in

18 time that, if there's no objection to from Prosecution, that you would

19 bar table them sooner or later as information about proceedings ongoing

20 in Bijeljina.

21 But let's focus with this witness on what he can tell us about

22 whatever event, and if there's any use in them putting to him what is

23 found in the proceedings in Bijeljina, you could consider that.

24 Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for this

Page 2824

1 suggestion.

2 Q. So I mentioned some names, including the one you mentioned,

3 Ejub Smajic, known as Mesar. My question is: In view of what you stated

4 in P207, is this consistent with your knowledge that these people were

5 beaten the most badly while you were at Batkovic camp?

6 A. Yes. But, for instance, I don't see the name of Fadil Alihodzic,

7 son of Ismet, from Vlasenica, known as Praga.

8 Q. Look at the eighth name on the list.

9 A. I'm sorry, his name is there.

10 Q. So this passage of the indictment is consistent with your

11 knowledge?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could we now look at the next page of this indictment which says,

14 among other things, the middle, these persons succumbed to the beatings:

15 Husein Curtic, Ferid Zecevic, Ilijaz Okanovic, and then another three

16 names. And it says Ejub Smajic suffered serious injuries. Would this

17 indictment convince you if I say that you were wrong and you did not see

18 Ejub Smajic succumb to the injuries from the beating in your presence?

19 A. You will not convince me, Mr. Stojanovic.

20 Q. So you still claim that Ejub Smajic from Bijeljina --

21 A. Died from the beating.

22 Q. So this part of the indictment is not true.

23 A. Right.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first of all, it's not uncommon that the

25 content of an indictment is challenged. That happens now and then.

Page 2825

1 But what I'd like to have is the line you referred to to be read

2 out -- or to read that out exactly so that the Chamber is aware of what

3 the document actually says. Could you please read out the relevant line

4 before the name.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. For the record,

6 Your Honour, I'm reading from page 3 of the indictment, which reads,

7 inter alia:

8 "While serious injuries were sustained by the following: Ejub

9 Smajic, aka Mesar, Sabrija Mehmedovic, and Nedim Mustacevic."

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. With your leave,

12 after this response from the witness, we would like to call up in e-court

13 1D268.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And the --

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me -- let me just check first.

17 Have you told us already who were the persons who were indicted?

18 I'm trying to find that. Because you said this is an indictment issued

19 by the prosecutor's office in Bijeljina --

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 1, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- against four persons. And they are, you say,

22 charged with, and then you mentioned who, according to this indictment,

23 were beaten. But we do not know yet who were indicted.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, Your Honour,

25 under count 1 of the indictment the following are charged:

Page 2826

1 Petar Dmitrovic as warden of the camp; Djoko Pajic as a warden in a later

2 period; Djordje Krstic as deputy warden; and finally, Ljubomir Misic as

3 shift leader among the guards. And that is described on page 2 of the

4 indictment.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see in e-court

7 1D268.

8 Your Honours, while we're waiting, it is a document this Defence

9 team obtained through the cantonal prosecutor's office in Tuzla. As you

10 can see from the header, it is dated 16 August 2004, taken by the

11 prosecutor's office from Witness Ejub Smajic. You can see the witness's

12 personal details below in the document. He was born in Bijeljina in

13 1949. And in the following pages, he describes all that he went through

14 at Batkovic camp.

15 Q. I'm asking you again, Mr. Osmanovic, would this record of a

16 witness statement convince you that your memory is not right when you say

17 that Ejub Smajic was killed by the beating before your eyes at Batkovic

18 camp?

19 A. If we are talking about the same person, Mr. Stojanovic, I will

20 not agree with you.

21 Q. So, Mr. Osmanovic --

22 JUDGE ORIE: That is an ambiguous answer. Because you say,

23 Mr. Osmanovic, "if we are talking about the same person," you would not

24 agree.

25 Do I understand your answer to be that you leave it open that it

Page 2827

1 may be another Ejub Smajic?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So what you're actually saying, it may well be

4 another person and that is the reason why it does not convince me. Is

5 that the gist of your answer?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll conclude with

9 this issue.

10 Q. While you were in Batkovic, did you ever hear of the existence of

11 two individuals called Ejub Smajic from?

12 A. I didn't hear that there two Ejub Smajic, but from people from

13 Vlasenica and Bijeljina -- Vlasenica municipality said that there were

14 two men in Vlasenica who had the same first and last name.

15 Q. My question was clear. You did not hear that in the prison in

16 Bijeljina there were two men who had that same name?

17 A. No, I never heard of any such thing, Mr. Stojanovic.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 JUDGE ORIE: One second.

21 Let me try to understand. You said your question was clear,

22 Mr. Stojanovic. You asked the witness whether, while he was in Batkovic,

23 he ever heard of the existence of two individuals by this same name. The

24 answer was:

25 "I didn't hear from that, but from people from Vlasenica and

Page 2828

1 Bijeljina, they said that there were two men in Vlasenica who had the

2 same first and last name."

3 So what the witness is telling us is I heard that but not in

4 Batkovic. Then you asked:

5 "You did not hear that in the prison in Bijeljina there were two

6 men who had the same name?"

7 Did you mean to ask whether he heard it in the prison of

8 Bijeljina, or whether there were two persons in that prison with the same

9 name? What was the question?

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I asked him, Your Honours,

11 and I'll repeat my question, whether, while he was in Batkovic, he heard

12 that there were two individuals called Ejub Smajic from Bijeljina,

13 whether he heard that at any point in time.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never heard any such thing.

15 JUDGE ORIE: But, at the same time I heard him say -- at least

16 that's what I read in his answer, he didn't hear that, that was about a

17 question which was limited exclusively to what he heard in -- what he

18 heard in Batkovic. But he said that he heard about two people with the

19 same name but he heard that at another occasion.

20 Is that how I have to understand your answer? That, at any point

21 in time, perhaps not in the prison or not in Batkovic, that you were --

22 that you heard about two people with this same name?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said that I heard

24 that there are people who have the same first and last name in Vlasenica.

25 This concerns two individuals with the same first and last names. The

Page 2829

1 only difference is in the name of the -- the father of these two

2 individuals.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if you say two people with the same name,

4 you refer to Ejub Smajic as the -- no.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not referring to

6 Ejub Smajic.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So it's in general you say you have heard about a

8 person -- two persons with the same name but not directly in relation to

9 persons by the name we see in these documents?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: I think that Mr. Mladic would like to consult with

15 counsel. Please, at low voice.

16 [Defence counsel confer]

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With Your Honours' leave, I

18 would now to have a look at 1D266 in the e-court system.

19 Q. While we're waiting for this to appear on the monitor, sir, I

20 just have one question I would like to put to you. Would I be correct if

21 I said that the maltreating you were subjected to in Batkovic came to an

22 end in August 1992?

23 A. Could you repeat your question. In August 1992?

24 Q. In August 1992 did the maltreating, your maltreatment cease then?

25 A. In August 1992 I was still an inmate in the Batkovic,

Page 2830

1 Mr. Stojanovic. However, the people who went to perform labour, to dig

2 trenches, fell trees, and so on and so forth, these individuals were not

3 subjected to the same beatings, to the same extent. There were daily

4 beatings, Your Honours, of people who were in the Batkovici camp every

5 day, who had to be present for the evening roll-call, so to speak. They

6 were all beaten.

7 Q. If you don't mind, I'm short of time.

8 A. Very well.

9 Q. Those who went to perform labour, am I to take it that they were

10 more privileged than those who remained behind in the camp?

11 A. Those who went to perform labour, Mr. Stojanovic, were more

12 privileged when it comes to the beatings.

13 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me if I said that the

14 leadership, or those in command of Batkovici, replaced the guards and

15 brought in other guards who treated you fairly. Is that correct or not?

16 A. When I returned from labour, there were new guards there. I

17 don't know what the reason for this was, but the guards who had appeared

18 were fairer. They had come from Bijeljina and the surroundings of

19 Bijeljina, and they behaved more decently than the other guards.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I

21 would like to draw your attention to the witness's statement, 27th of

22 July 1992. It's the last paragraph in the B/C/S version, page 2, and

23 it's the last page in the English version.

24 Q. Mr. Osmanovic, you gave this statement on the 23rd of July, 1993,

25 after the change in the security organ of the ABiH 2nd Corps?

Page 2831

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have the right page on our screens?

2 The second page you said, Mr. Stojanovic?

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's the second

4 page in the B/C/S version. The last paragraph on that page. And it's

5 page 3 in the English version.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Can I ask if it's P207 or?

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 266. 1D266. You have it on the

8 screen. Could we have a look at page 3 in the English version.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic. Could you please point at what

10 paragraph we are supposed to look at.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But we need the B/C/S version on the screen. We

12 have only two English. Now, there it is.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Now we have -- again, there is two English.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's the last paragraph in the

15 B/C/S version, on page 2 of the B/C/S version. And could we please have

16 page 3 in the English version. Page 3 of this document.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we have it, isn't it?

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. I assume that you have read through it.

20 You say:

21 "In August 1992 " --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Which paragraph? Where do we have to look? We have

23 a whole page and you expect us to find in half a split second --

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 7 in the English

25 version.

Page 2832

1 JUDGE ORIE: The paragraphs are not numbered. Paragraph 7 on

2 this page? There are no seven paragraphs on this page.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours ...

4 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, if I may be of assistance --

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 3 from the top.

6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Exactly. Because I saw a reference to August 1992

7 in the third paragraph from the top.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Yes. Yes. That paragraph.

9 Mr. Stojanovic.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You say:

12 "In August 1992, the guards in the Batkovici camp were changed.

13 Most of the guards who beat us, maltreated us, and brutalised us were

14 replaced."

15 You mention some names, and then you say:

16 "They were replaced by a group of elderly villagers from the

17 village of Batkovici who treated us fairly so that there were no more

18 beatings. There was no more maltreatment, but we to do hard labour as

19 before."

20 Very briefly, do you stand by this part of your statement?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. I have just one more question for you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, were you just seeking confirmation

24 of what the witness testified already? Because I do not see a new

25 element in it. If the witness testifies about a positive change in the

Page 2833

1 treatment, then there's no need to go to a statement where he says

2 exactly the same.

3 Please proceed. And I do see that you read Batkovici. I'm

4 looking at the original. It looks as if the English translation which

5 refers to Ratkovici is wrong, although the original is not very clear,

6 but I take it that the replacement was by elderly people from Batkovici.

7 But we could ask the witness to confirm that.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The village of Batkovici, the

9 camp of Batkovici.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like

11 to say that I like to tender 1D266, because the statement P206 isn't

12 contained in it. I also want to have marked for identification, since we

13 don't have any official translations, 1D267, the indictment --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, let's take them one by one.

15 You want to tender which one first?

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D266. 1D266, which is this

19 witness's statement dated the 23rd of July, 1993. It is the statement

20 that we were commenting on just a minute ago.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Is -- is that the last one you used? The one on our

22 screen? And --

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And that's only for the purpose of establishing that

25 he said, the same what he testified today? And then we have the whole of

Page 2834

1 the statement into evidence, which we have not looked at, and the only

2 purpose apparently being that he said so before.

3 Do the parties agree that the general improvement of treatment at

4 that point in time in Batkovic also is reflected in his statement?

5 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I think we will have to look into

6 it. Because I --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we read the relevant portion. Would you agree

8 that that is more or less the same as what the witness said, that in the

9 last period of time in Batkovici, that they were treated better.

10 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, I -- we do.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So therefore there is no need to have this

12 statement in evidence - is there? - Mr. Stojanovic.

13 I have got no idea what is, apart from this three lines you

14 pointed at, what is in the statement. So would you agree that there's no

15 need?

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With all due respect,

17 Your Honours, in the statement provided by the Prosecution, 92 ter,

18 according to the 92 ter procedure, nothing is mentioned about this.

19 That's why I'm asking this to be admitted. I can suggest -- I could

20 suggest that only this part of the statement be admitted.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the witness testified to that. You

22 asked him was the situation at the end better? Were you better treated?

23 Yes. Especially those who had to go for work were treated better. So,

24 therefore, we don't need the statement. We have the testimony of the

25 witness, isn't it?

Page 2835

1 And you're perfectly entitled to elicit the evidence from this

2 witness, and you did so because it does not appear in the Prosecution

3 statement, but why have it in both clear answers to clear questions and

4 then have it again in a statement? I mean, there's no dispute about the

5 statement confirms what the witness said.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Do you still want to tender it?

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, because the

9 statement doesn't only contain this part. I had other questions about

10 this statement, and the Defence team would be grateful if the entire

11 statement could be admitted into evidence.

12 JUDGE ORIE: What -- what questions did you put in relation to

13 other parts of the statement? I think you only drew our attention to

14 this specific part. The Chamber has no idea about what else you dealt

15 with, which is found in this statement, which we haven't read. And if

16 you've asked the questions about it, if it's consistent with what he said

17 in the statement, then we have his testimony and we do not need the

18 statement anymore. But -- correct me when I misunderstood you.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I tender

20 this, I ask to put one more question before I tender this into evidence.

21 Our right is to tender documents and your right is to admit them or not.

22 As for this statement that you say you haven't read, it is our legitimate

23 right to tender it into evidence.

24 Thank you.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2836

1 JUDGE ORIE: Admission is denied. The only portion that was put

2 to the witness is exactly about the same matter he testified about

3 before, and the Chamber has not heard or have been -- nothing else in

4 this statement has been brought to our attention, so therefore the

5 evidence of the witness is clear without this statement and apparently

6 fully in line with it.

7 Please proceed. Next one, Mr. Stojanovic.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Q. The next question I wish to put you, Mr. Osmanovic, is --

10 JUDGE ORIE: You were at this moment tendering documents. I

11 would like you to continue with that because we have now dealt with

12 1D00266.

13 What's the next document you would like to tender?

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The next two documents are the

15 documents that we used with this witness, 1D267, the indictment of the

16 district prosecutor's office in Bijeljina; and document 1D268, the record

17 of Ejub Smajic's testimony before the cantonal court in Tuzla. I suggest

18 that these two documents be marked for identification because we don't

19 have official translations yet. We have asked for them and we will be

20 receiving them.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections.

22 MS. D'ASCOLI: No objections, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, 1D00267 will receive number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit D47 marked for identification,

25 Your Honours.

Page 2837

1 JUDGE ORIE: It is marked for identification.

2 1D00268.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit D48, Your Honours, marked for

4 identification.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That document is marked for identification.

6 Mr. Stojanovic, were all the other documents you used either

7 tendered or do you not wish to tender them?

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The document that I used, P207

9 has been admitted into evidence, Your Honour, and the statement from the

10 27th of July has not been admitted into evidence. I haven't used it and,

11 therefore I'm not going to tender it. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: 27th of July, you say --

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D261.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I think you said that 1D00261 was

18 not admitted. That is not the case. It was 1D266 which was denied

19 admission.

20 As far as we are concerned, it seems that you have used 1D00260,

21 statement of Osmanovic, the War Crimes Bureau in Lukovac, which has a

22 translation, but you have not tendered that as far as we are aware of.

23 Do you wish to tender it?

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes. So I

25 shall repeat. 1D260, the statement from the 4th of

Page 2838

1 October [as interpreted], 1993, we would like it tender into evidence.

2 As for 1D261, the statement from the 27th of July, 1993, we are

3 not tendering into evidence.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we have to decide on 1D260. You -- did

5 you misspeak when you said the 4th of October? That is how it appears on

6 our transcript. Whereas, it's my recollection - and also on the list -

7 that it was a statement given the 4th of August.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The statement

9 is from the 4th of August, 1993.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections.

11 MS. D'ASCOLI: No objections, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, 1D00260 receives ...

13 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes D49, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: D49 is admitted.

15 You wanted to put one last question, Mr. Stojanovic, if I

16 understand you well, please do so.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. It's

18 going to be a question to corroborate what was stated.

19 Q. My last question, Mr. Osmanovic: Would you agree with me that

20 when you were leaving the Batkovici camp, about 250 detainees were left

21 there and most of them were from Prijedor, Kotor Varos, and Kozarac, and

22 when speaking to these detainees, you were told that they were members --

23 or, rather, most of them were members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

24 but that they did not dare disclose that, and that when Kozarac fell

25 these combatants cast away their weapons and were taken prisoner as

Page 2839

1 civilians. Yes or no?

2 A. I don't know, Mr. Stojanovic.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if you put a composite question with

4 four elements in it and then to say "yes or no," that is bad advocacy.

5 We take it one by one. Is it true that when you were leaving

6 Batkovici that 250 detainees were left, Witness?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I left on the

8 30th of June, when I went to Tuzla, when I was exchanged, a certain

9 number of people stayed behind who had been brought from Manjaca.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. When you -- have you spoken to these

11 detainees?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did speak to someone of these

13 people, Your Honours, and I never talked to others.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, did they tell you that they were members of the

15 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, even who was a member

17 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had to hide that very carefully.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that's not what I asked. Did they tell you

19 that they were members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not recall at

21 this point in time anyone having said that to me then.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Did they say anything about -- that they were, as

23 combatants, that they had thrown away their weapons and that they were

24 taken prisoner as civilians? Did they say anything of that kind?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember, Your Honour.

Page 2840

1 For the most part, we talked about how they had been brought

2 there from Manjaca. Because, by then, the camp of Manjaca had been

3 disbanded.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.

5 Mr. Stojanovic, we have now -- you put your last question, we

6 translate it into five questions, and they have all been answered.

7 No further questions? That's it.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: What, with my leave, Mr. Stojanovic? More

10 questions?

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall leave with a sense of

12 bitterness if I do not say this. The question that I put is a quotation

13 from this witness's statement from the 23rd of July, 1993, 1D266, that

14 has not been admitted into evidence.

15 I did not put these questions. I did not invent this. I put the

16 text to him, as stated there. If you allow me now, because there's

17 discrepancy between the witness said today and what he said in his own

18 statement of the 23rd of July, 1993, with your leave, with all due

19 respect, I would like to tender 1D266 yet again. Because there is this

20 discrepancy, so we would like to have this admitted into evidence. Of

21 course, the decision is up to you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, leave out your bitterness, Mr. Stojanovic. You

23 could have asked the witness all the elements of what is found in that

24 statement, and if you say they are inconsistent, you could have put to

25 the witness what he said earlier. No problem with that. But you can't

Page 2841

1 just put such a composite question and ask for a yes and a no.

2 We have, I think ...

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: If you would have put to the witness that this was

5 his statement, matters would have been totally different. I would not

6 have intervened as I did.

7 Now let me just consult with my colleagues.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, please ask for the document to

10 be put on the screen, choose the right page and the right portion, and

11 ask the witness the questions which are, of course, appropriately to be

12 asked.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So could we please have in

14 e-court 1D266 yet again, the last page, or page 3 in B/C/S, and the last

15 page of the English version, the third paragraph from the back,

16 Your Honours.

17 I'm going to ask for the last page in English as well, the third

18 paragraph from the back.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Page -- page 3, second linea from the bottom, in

20 English.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have to go one page back in

22 English. This is the relevant page, Your Honours.

23 Q. Again, I'm going to ask you in accordance with the instructions.

24 Mr. Osmanovic, is it correct that when you went for the exchange 250

25 prisoners stayed in Batkovic?

Page 2842

1 A. Yes. I cannot say exactly how many people were left, 200, 250

2 approximately.

3 Q. Is it correct that these prisoners mostly came from Prijedor,

4 Kotor Varos, and Kozarac?

5 A. These people introduced themselves as having been from these

6 municipalities, Mr. Stojanovic.

7 Q. When speaking to them, were you told that most of the prisoners

8 from Kozarac belonged to the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina but that they did

9 not dare disclose that?

10 A. These were stories that were circulated amongst us, the

11 detainees. As you can see from this statement here, I did not say such

12 and such a person said this to me, but what I say here when speaking to

13 the other prisoners, I was told ...

14 So I worked and we would come back from our labour only when

15 there were exchanges.

16 Q. Is it correct that you were told that when Kozarac fell, these

17 combatants threw away their weapons and were captured as civilians?

18 A. That's what was being said about this alleged fall of Kozarac,

19 Mr. Stojanovic. I did not spend much time with these people. My

20 colleagues who were in the Batkovic camp every day had more time and

21 spent more time with these people, so this was just sort of an internal

22 conversation that we had. Because I would be away from Batkovic camp for

23 three or four months. I was in the Ugljevik prison, in the prison in

24 Lopare. I also worked, was involved in labour in these municipalities.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Osmanovic, those are my questions.

Page 2843

1 A. Thank you, too.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, bearing in mind

3 these answers --

4 JUDGE ORIE: You'd like to tendered it again.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- that --

6 MS. D'ASCOLI: And we have no objections, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the Chamber admits into evidence 1D00266,

8 I think it is.

9 Madam Registrar, it would receive number ...

10 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit D50, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: D50 is admitted into evidence.

12 Mr. Stojanovic, if you would have dealt with the matter right

13 away, then we would not have had to first deny it and then, on the

14 basis -- we did that on the basis of vague references to portions of the

15 statement we had not read, and, on the whole, I think, for the next time,

16 it would have been better to start with the substance and then only with

17 the background.

18 We take a -- no -- yes. We have to take a break anyhow.

19 How much time would you need, Ms. D'Ascoli.

20 MS. D'ASCOLI: I would have one question only, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: One question only. Then ...

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: I am looking at the Defence at this moment. There

24 is one question from the Chamber. One question from Ms. D'Ascoli. Would

25 we try to finish that in the next three or four minutes or should we take

Page 2844

1 the break first? The short breaks, after one hour, are at the request of

2 Mr. Mladic, so I ...

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely because of that,

4 Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To continue for five minutes? Or to take a

6 break?

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Mladic's proposal is that we

8 do take the break, Your Honours, so that would be our proposal.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

11 We'd like to see you back for one more second after the break,

12 Mr. Osmanovic.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we resume at 25 minutes to

15 2.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, I use the time.

21 When I asked about the translation on a matter which was

22 considered to be inconsistent, one of the translations - and I think it's

23 the written translation - says: "... succumbed to Chetnik torture and

24 beating by Zoran Viskovic," whereas the oral translation was "died after

25 having been tortured and killed by the Chetnik, Zoran Viskovic." Or the

Page 2845

1 other way around, but there is some difference.

2 [The witness takes the stand]

3 Please be seated, Mr. Osmanovic. Therefore, I would like to have

4 that translation. You can find that in the transcript and to have that

5 portion of the translation to be verified again.

6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Absolutely, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

8 Mr. Osmanovic, Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, indeed.

10 Sir, you were asked this morning -- was it this morning or

11 yesterday? I forgot.

12 Just a moment. This morning.

13 About Rade Milic. You will recall the situation with a war and

14 with the unknown person in the car. You were asked:

15 "The information about Rade Milic is something you did not

16 mention in your earlier statements; correct? "

17 And then you said:

18 "I didn't mention Rade Milic because that man acted as a

19 professional towards all of his neighbours."

20 Is this Rade Milic the person unknown to you who was sitting in

21 the car you mentioned in your statement in paragraph 17? Is it the same

22 person or another person?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a different person,

24 Your Honour. The unknown person who sat next to me in the car was a man

25 called Rajkenovic, whereas Rade Milic is the brother of a neighbour of