Page 3125
1 Thursday, 27 September 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 The Chamber was informed that the Defence would like to raise a
11 matter.
12 Mr. Lukic.
13 Oh, Mr. Stojanovic. Yes. It is about yesterday's witness, I do
14 understand. Yes.
15 Mr. Stojanovic.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honours.
17 Good morning. With your leave, just a few remarks.
18 Yesterday evening, we received a statement from the Prosecution
19 by mail. It is directly connected with yesterday's witness testimony and
20 the possibility to reach a correct decision about the video-clip that was
21 used during the witness's testimony yesterday.
22 You're talking about a fact that the chain of custody of the
23 original video-clip is directly in contradiction with what we heard
24 yesterday and directly in contradiction with what we heard yesterday
25 about the author of that video-clip.
Page 3126
1 Yesterday we heard a testimony from which it arises that the --
2 that the person whose statement we received yesterday was actually the
3 author of that part of clip that we saw yesterday. We would like to
4 express our serious concern that a document of that nature had not been
5 submitted to us at least sometime before the witness arrived in the
6 court, and in that sense our suggestion would be that the witness, whom
7 we heard yesterday, should be re-called because we would like to put to
8 him what we have learned and what we arrived at after reading his
9 statement.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber is -- is quite willing
11 to understand what you're referring to, but if you do not make us
12 acquainted with the material you received, then, of course, we cannot
13 follow you.
14 There seems to be a -- Mr. Mladic seems not to receive the audio.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I
16 can be more specific. With your leave.
17 Yesterday evening, we received a statement by a man. That man
18 provided the statement to the investigators of the Tribunal on the 27th
19 of November, 2002. In that statement, he describes the same event about
20 the witness -- about which the witness testified yesterday. His
21 testimony is directly in contradiction with yesterday's testimony.
22 However, this would not be surprising if we didn't have a bench-mark in
23 your decision about the admission of this video-clip.
24 In that statement, that witness -- in the statement that we
25 received yesterday, that witness says that he is the author of that
Page 3127
1 video-clip, that he was an authorised official, he was a member of the
2 police force who was sent to carry out an on-site investigation together
3 with the Serbian police, and as a result he recorded that video-clip as a
4 result of that investigation. And, finally, the witness also speaks
5 about the chain of custody of this video-clip. He says that the original
6 video-clip was in his hands, that a copy was made, and that on the
7 following day that copy was sent to the CNN and the BBC. And according
8 to what he knows, a day after that event was sent to those two
9 broadcasting agencies, through the channels unknown to him, and that had
10 a direct impact on the break in the negotiations that had started in
11 Lisbon.
12 Bearing in mind the contents of the statement, Your Honours, we
13 believe that it would be fair to provide the Defence additional time for
14 preparations and for the re-examination of the witness about the
15 circumstances of the event. We would like to challenge what he said in
16 his testimony yesterday.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Still, you are summarising and apparently the
18 Chamber is invited to act on the basis of the content of a document which
19 is still not known to it, apart from your summary.
20 Before we continue, Prosecution, Ms. Hasan.
21 MS. HASAN: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good
22 morning to everyone.
23 We did provide the Defence with this witness statement. The
24 video that we received, the footage we received, was obtained on the 30th
25 of September, 2002. Subsequently, the individual who provided this video
Page 3128
1 was interviewed and a witness statement was produced.
2 The witness statement addresses the video that was taken. He
3 states in the statement that most of the footage was taken by him and
4 then sets out -- tracks the chain of custody and how the video eventually
5 made it into the hands of the OTP.
6 It is probably best at this stage, or from our perspective, to
7 maybe deal with this in written submissions so that Your Honours will
8 have a fuller understanding of who this individual is and what the
9 information we have is and whether it's necessary to re-call the witness
10 and on what basis.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that -- no. The witness, of
12 course, never travelled to The Hague so that's -- one second, please.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber invites the parties to make written
15 submissions and provide the Chamber with the statement taken from the
16 person who provided this video.
17 I think the most logical way of dealing with the matter would be
18 that, Mr. Stojanovic, you have now received the statement. You have
19 developed some thoughts about it, that you start making submissions, and
20 that -- then the Defence response, I take it that your request would be
21 to deny admission?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honours.
23 However, our concern - and with your leave, we will include it in our
24 submission - our concern is that we received the statement after this
25 testimony of the witness. If that statement had been disclosed to us any
Page 3129
1 time before the arrival of this witness, it would be fair if we had been
2 told that. However, we have no knowledge of that. Our cross-examination
3 would have been different, had we known that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Was the statement disclosed at any point in time?
5 MS. HASAN: My understanding is we just, in fact, found the
6 statement yesterday and immediately handed it over to the Defence at that
7 time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it was not previously disclosed.
9 Could you make your written submissions within a week? Is that
10 reasonable, Mr. Stojanovic?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we will do
12 that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And then after receipt of the Defence submission, on
14 from the date when it's filed, the Prosecution is invited to respond
15 within a week.
16 No further preliminary matters.
17 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, if I just may be excused now that this
18 matter has been dealt with.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MS. HASAN: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have a few matters which we could deal with
22 at least -- no. Yes, the first one is the Defence was asked to make
23 submissions on MFI'd Exhibits P186, P188, up to and including P190 and
24 P192, by midday, Tuesday, the 25th of September.
25 Yesterday, Mr. Lukic, when we raised this matter, you said you
Page 3130
1 would -- after the break, address the matter, but -- well, it's still
2 after the break, isn't it?
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes, it is, Your Honour.
4 I just want to say that, as you know, Your Honours, we filed our
5 submission in written form on 17th of September on this issue, and we
6 have nothing to add to this submission.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll look at your written submissions and --
8 thank you for that.
9 One small matter. Mr. Lukic, I think you yesterday referred to
10 the time - and perhaps, meanwhile, the witness could be brought into the
11 courtroom - you referred to your estimate of seven hours for
12 cross-examination, but that was adjusted later to five hours. And since
13 I think you used up to -- close to two hours, one hour and 40 minutes, I
14 think, you are encouraged to try to finish your cross-examination today.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Selak.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to remind you that you're still bound
20 by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your
21 testimony. And I also would like to remind you that you should not start
22 answering until after a short pause, a pause between question and answer,
23 and Mr. Lukic will do the same. And, finally, listen carefully to the
24 question. If someone asks you, for example, did A come by car, then the
25 answer is yes or no. Or he came by train. But there's no need to
Page 3131
1 describe the car. It was a two-litre red car. That's not -- if someone
2 is interested in the colour of the car, they'll ask you.
3 Is that clear to you? So try to focus your answers on what has
4 been asked.
5 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 WITNESS: OSMAN SELAK [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
11 Q. Once again, good morning, Colonel Selak.
12 A. Good morning.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 09041.
14 Q. We already saw it yesterday. You will remember, Colonel, the
15 document is dated 14 April 1992. It was sent by the command of the
16 5th Corps. We already discussed that document, and we were reading from
17 page 2 in B/C/S and in English, paragraph 1, where it is insisted that
18 unity of the army force should be maintained. Do you remember whether at
19 that time there were efforts made in order to have the JNA united; yes or
20 no?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. We also discussed paragraph 5, where it says that military
23 personnel should not be captured. You spoke about instances when
24 military personnel was captured and their apartments confiscated. And
25 finally page 3, paragraph 11, it says --
Page 3132
1 A. I don't have that question. Bear with us.
2 Q. Yes. It says organise the monitoring of the enemy which shows
3 that there were constant attacks on the JNA, and it is well known who the
4 enemy was.
5 Let me ask you this: Is it correct that you yourself, on the 9th
6 of April, 1992, reported to Colonel Kelecevic while you were in Jajce
7 that there would be attack on the fuel storage in Jajce; do you remember
8 that?
9 A. Yes, I do remember that because I was afraid that there would be
10 consequences for the entire city. It was a fuel storage. I was afraid
11 of a possible sabotage and a fire breaking out.
12 Q. Thank you very much.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender 09041 into
14 evidence, please.
15 MR. GROOME: No objection, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 09041 shall be assigned
18 Exhibit D51. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: D51 is admitted into evidence.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up P246.
21 Q. And while we are waiting for the document to be displayed, let me
22 tell you what it's about. It was issued by the command of the
23 1st Krajina Corps on the 1st of June, 1992. Is that right? Do you see
24 the document in front of you, Colonel?
25 A. Yes, the 1st of June, 1992.
Page 3133
1 Q. In the document there is a reference, under 2, to the operations
2 of the 19th Brigade of the 30th Partisan Division. Retaliation was
3 carried out against the inhabitants of Cipuljici village who fled to
4 Kupres. The 1st Battalion of the 19th Partisan Brigade has been formed
5 from the 400 Bugojno refugees. Could you please confirm the abbreviation
6 PR TD?
7 A. It was the 19th Battalion of the Partisan Brigade.
8 Q. What is the 19th Part. Brigade?
9 A. It was -- it is the 19th Partisan Brigade.
10 Q. We're talking about Serbian refugees here; right? Since the
11 19th Partisan Brigade was formed, or perhaps those were members of some
12 other ethnicity who formed that brigade?
13 A. Personally I believe that they were Serbs, but I am not sure. We
14 know what happened in Bugojno. There were a lot of problems there,
15 unfortunately, and I believe that those were, indeed, Serbian refugees.
16 Q. Thank you. Do you know at the time around Bugojno and Kupres
17 whether there was any fighting going on and who was involved?
18 A. Around Bugojno and Kupres, besides the army units there were also
19 the Croatian HVO units, the Croatian Defence Council units. The Croatian
20 people had organised themselves in order to protect themselves, and I
21 know that there was some fierce fighting going on both in Bugojno and
22 around Bugojno.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This document has already been
25 admitted so there's no need for me to tender it. And now I would like
Page 3134
1 provide the Colonel with his own statement. I am counting on the
2 Prosecutor to have an unmarked version today as well.
3 Q. Let's go to paragraph 67, please.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Before we start discussing this paragraph, let me ask you
6 something else about Bugojno and Kupres. In addition to the HVO units,
7 did you know at the time that around Kupres and Bugojno there were also
8 units of the Croatian army, i.e., the Army of the Republic of Croatia?
9 A. Not around Bugojno; but, yes, around Kupres.
10 Q. Thank you. And now let's go back to paragraph 67 in your
11 statement. We're talking about casualties in Kozarac. We already
12 discussed that, but I would like to revisit the issue just briefly.
13 Did you subsequently talk to Colonel Marcetic? Did you discuss
14 the figures, namely, 800 or 80, and how many were actually killed in
15 Kozarac?
16 A. No, I did not discuss that with Marcetic.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you have an opportunity to see a book about those
18 who went missing from Prijedor municipality? The book could be -- the
19 title of the book could be translated as: "Blameless."
20 A. No, I did not see that.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up P247
23 in -- in e-court.
24 Q. Again, this was issued by the 1st Krajina Corps in 1992, on the
25 27th of May. This is about the armed conflict in Kozarac. According to
Page 3135
1 this report, it started on the 25th of May and ended on the 27th of May,
2 1992. Did you know what the goal of the military column was,
3 and that military column, on the 25th of May, 1992, was passing through
4 Kozarac?
5 A. No. But I know that a battalion had arrived from Belgrade. They
6 were also headed in that direction. I don't know much about the details
7 of the whole situation. That was staged.
8 Q. Did you hear that the first driver, i.e., the person driving the
9 first truck, was killed while the column was moving through Kozarac and
10 that was the reason why the column halted in Kozarac in the first place?
11 A. I don't know anything about that. There were debates, there were
12 reports in the media. However, those were political options, and those
13 political options tried to justify the incident during which over 1200
14 people were killed.
15 Q. How many wounded were there? You're saying that there were 1200
16 killed. How many wounded? Do you have that information?
17 A. I don't -- I know that there were a lot, but I don't know the
18 exact figure. I don't want to speculate. Unfortunately, there were a
19 lot of wounded people.
20 Q. Would you say that there were several thousand wounded, if you
21 say that there were 1200 killed?
22 A. I believe so. Because the population from the villages around
23 Prijedori was taken to three major camps that contained over 5.000
24 people. There were a lot of wounded among them who succumbed to their
25 wounds.
Page 3136
1 Q. In other words, all of those wounded were brought to the camps
2 and they were treated there?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And there should be documents to that effect, about the number of
5 wounded?
6 A. That documentation was hidden to mask up the responsibility of
7 the perpetrators. I apologise.
8 JUDGE ORIE: One after the other.
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It's now Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Did you hear about the losses suffered by the military column?
13 How many killed? How many wounded?
14 A. I know some were killed. I see from that -- this document, five
15 killed, 20 wounded. They were from the 23rd Motorised Brigade that was
16 based in Prijedor and that perpetrated this crime in Kozarac. It was
17 genocide.
18 Q. We will leave legal terms, such as genocide, for the Chamber.
19 A. All right.
20 Q. I would like you to focus on the facts because you are a fact
21 witness. You are not an expert witness, so please refrain from making
22 evaluations and judgements. Just tell us about your personal knowledge,
23 what you heard at that time or saw at that time. Please.
24 Did you hear about fighting in Hambarine two or three days before
25 the fighting started in Kozarac?
Page 3137
1 A. No, I did not hear about any actual fighting. There was a debate
2 in the media about all that, but it was all carefully put out and -- and
3 orchestrated.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selak, the question was did you hear about it.
5 You said:
6 "No, I did not hear about any actual fighting."
7 That's an answer to the question instead of then giving your
8 opinion about whether it was orchestrated or not. You are a witness of
9 fact. What you know, tell us. What you observed, tell us. What you
10 think, keep it for yourself if you're not asked about it.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Selak, did you hear about an attack on
14 Prijedor town several days after Kozarac, on the 30th of May 1992?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you. I should now like to call up in e-court 1D111.
17 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting, Mr. Lukic, may I take you back
18 to an earlier observation you made this morning. You said that yesterday
19 you had spoken about paragraph 5 of that previous document, of the 14th
20 of April, and I couldn't find that. As a matter of fact, the witness
21 said yesterday something about persons leaving their apartments, not
22 about confiscation, but that was not in the context of any question
23 related to paragraph 5 of this 14th of April document.
24 As a matter of fact, you started with paragraph 1, and that's
25 where we stopped, where the witness had testified about persons leaving
Page 3138
1 their apartments but, again, not in the context of what we read in
2 paragraph 5. That is, movement of, the kind of activity which was not
3 referred to. So I'm a bit confused.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 I thought that I was reading from that paragraph yesterday,
6 but --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think you started reading paragraph 1. But I may
8 have missed it, or ...
9 MR. LUKIC: You are right. But --
10 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to you whether you still want to visit
11 the matter or not, but I was confused by your reference to the reading of
12 paragraph 5.
13 MR. LUKIC: It was paragraph 1, Your Honour. My mistake. Thank
14 you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. LUKIC: And I covered today paragraph 5 as well. If you
17 think that I should cover more --
18 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not -- I just wanted to say that where you
19 referred to what you had done yesterday, that I -- it was my recollection
20 that you had not done that yesterday.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Here on your screen, you can see an order by
25 Colonel Hasan Efendic dated 29 April 1992. We can read in it that
Page 3139
1 Colonel Efendic orders a complete blockade on all roads in
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina where the JNA is beginning to withdrew its equipment
3 and personnel in direct co-ordination with the Ministry of Interior.
4 Item 2 says: Block the broader area of military installations
5 from which attempts are made to pull out equipment using all sorts of
6 natural features and man-made obstacles to prevent the JNA and the MUP
7 from doing that.
8 You told us about this yesterday, but we were discussing,
9 actually, an earlier period in April. After this order, were you able to
10 observe an increased activity in mounting obstacles to movements of
11 military equipment and personnel?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You did not observe on the territory of the 1st Krajina Corps
14 such a thing, or you did not hear that it happened in areas held by the
15 Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
16 A. Your Honours, I hope you will allow me to explain this in greater
17 detail.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please first give an answer to the question. The
19 question whether -- was whether you did not observe what was -- what
20 Mr. Lukic told you, or that you did not hear that it happened.
21 Could you first answer that question.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it didn't happen.
23 The units were strong enough to protect their assets.
24 I'm asking you to let me explain this.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selak, I said first answer the question.
Page 3140
1 Do I then understand that if you say it didn't happen that you
2 couldn't see it because you can't see anything that doesn't happen. Is
3 that your answer? The short answer to the question.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was living and
5 working in Banja Luka, and in Bosanska Krajina it did not happen. In
6 other parts of Bosnia --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In other parts of Bosnia, I believe
9 it did happen because there was an order by the Yugoslav People's Army to
10 pull out all equipment and assets from territories held by Bosniaks
11 because they were afraid the Bosniaks would take that equipment and
12 weapons. If -- you're not letting me answer.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because you're not answering the question.
14 You said you believe it didn't happen because there was an order.
15 That is conclusions. The question clearly was: Did you see it happen?
16 We've received an answer to that because you said, In the area where I
17 was, it did not happen. Therefore, I could not see it happen. And
18 further away, it may have happened.
19 You have heard about it to happen further away? Did you hear
20 that at the time?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did hear about it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Mr. Lukic, next question. Next question, please.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. Paragraph 68 now in your statement, please.
Page 3141
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Regarding this paragraph --
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see P248.
4 Q. You see here in paragraph 1 of this document:
5 "In the course of the day, the enemy has mostly continued to
6 observe the cease-fire, expect in the area north of Derventa and south of
7 Bosanski Brod where several serious artillery and infantry fire
8 provocations occurred during the day."
9 It was about 26 July 1992. Are you aware - although you were
10 retired at the time - that in these locations, all the way up to the end
11 of July 1992, fighting went on?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Also, in para 3, it says:
14 "The complexity of the social and financial situation, shortages,
15 and cuts in electrical power," et cetera.
16 Do you remember any blackouts and shortages of power in
17 Banja Luka at the time?
18 A. Yes, it happened occasionally.
19 Q. In your statement, regarding this document, you say -- speaking
20 of Keraterm, you say:
21 "This shows that Keraterm camp was in the area of responsibility
22 of the 1st Krajina Corps because they would not reporting about something
23 outside of their area of responsibility."
24 First of all, I would like to ask you: In which military
25 document is the area of responsibility defined; do you know?
Page 3142
1 A. I don't know which document, but I know that Banja Luka Corps
2 covered the entire Bosnian Krajina, including Prijedor, with its 343rd
3 Motorised Brigade that was committing crimes.
4 Q. Do you know who provided guards for Keraterm?
5 A. It was part of the responsibilities of those who established it,
6 and that was the Banja Luka Corps and the 1st Krajina Corps.
7 Q. What is the source of your information? If can you enlighten us
8 so we can find it too.
9 A. I was a professional colonel and I had colleagues, Serbs, who
10 told me about what was going on there.
11 Q. Have you ever seen any document about it? Everything is written
12 up in the army. Have you ever seen a document saying that the Keraterm
13 camp was established by the 1st Krajina Corps?
14 A. I do not remember seeing the document. I might have. But I
15 don't remember any details. I can't answer this question.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, everything that is written up in the army
17 is comment, not part of a question.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Is it true, Colonel, that there should be - there must be - a
21 written trace in the archives of the 1st Krajina Corps, if they, indeed,
22 established Keraterm camp?
23 A. Your Honours, some of those reports were false, such as the
24 report involving 80 men, because they were afraid of the legal
25 consequences, knowing that that action was illegal.
Page 3143
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selak, that was not the question. The question
2 was whether there must be a written trace, which is conclusion or opinion
3 you're asking for, Mr. Lukic, at this moment. Why you emphasised a
4 minute ago that this is a witness of fact.
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes. I withdraw --
6 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness knows anything about it, he can tell
7 us; if not, let's proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I withdraw the question.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Did you ever supply Keraterm with anything? Did
10 you send food there or anything else?
11 A. No, no.
12 Q. Thank you. Keraterm was also in your zone, wasn't it? The zone
13 that you used to supply.
14 A. Not Keraterm. The entire Bosnian Krajina.
15 Q. Including Prijedor where it was based?
16 A. That brigade was also Prijedor, and I sent supplies to the
17 brigade as well.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Not at the same time. Pause between question and
19 answer and between answer and question.
20 MR. LUKIC: Bear with me, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selak, if Mr. Lukic asks you, Keraterm was also
22 in your zone, the zone that you used to supply. You said:
23 "Not Keraterm. The entire Bosnian Krajina."
24 You have not carefully listened to the question. The question
25 was not whether Keraterm was the zone but whether Keraterm was in the
Page 3144
1 zone. So the simple answer would have been: Yes, it was.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please. Please, just
3 a few words. The logistical base does not supply directly the lowest
4 subordinate units. It supplies the corps and its units, whereas Keraterm
5 was not a corps.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No. But I didn't invite you to make further
7 explanations. The location where Keraterm was was within the zone you
8 supplied by the means as you have explained to us before, not directly
9 but through the corps. You have told us that already.
10 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Will you tell us where your depots were, where
13 was your quartermaster depot, where was your ammunition depot, the depot
14 of medical supplies?
15 A. Your Honour, the logistical base in Banja Luka had ammunition
16 depots in Mrkonjic Grad, Donji Vakuf, and in Banja Luka. Fuel depots in
17 Jajce and in Banja Luka. A depot of spare parts and quartermaster's
18 equipment in Banja Luka. That's my answer. And that includes medical
19 supplies and everything.
20 Q. Thank you. You provided comment on 18347. It is an order of
21 Lieutenant-Colonel Momir Talic dated 7 June 1993, it says here. It deals
22 with the preparation of sectors for HVO prisoners of war at Manjaca. Did
23 you see this document during proofing?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Again, this is the setting up of the centre for the detention of
Page 3145
1 prisoners of war in 1993; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was it the army's obligation to set up centres, or camps, where
4 they would keep prisoners of war? What was the way prisoners of war were
5 kept?
6 A. The army is responsible for the safety and security of POWs, so
7 Camp Manjaca was within the military and it's only logical that the army
8 should be responsible for the camp and take care of it.
9 Q. Thank you. Let us please focus on paragraph 69 now of your
10 statement. If you remember, in this document you discussed in great deal
11 with my colleague, Mr. Ackerman -- actually, you gave your comment on
12 document 03847. I'm not going to be calling it up. We don't need it in
13 e-court.
14 But you say that the corps issued weapons to the units of the
15 Territorial Defence from the very beginning of operations with the
16 intention of protecting Serbs in the Serb republic from genocide, that
17 is, where there is a table with a detailed explanation of the equipment
18 issued to the Territorial Defence units. Can we agree that at that time
19 the Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have their own army;
20 is that right? They were only involved in the JNA.
21 A. No. Your Honours, on the 18th of May, 1992, the units were
22 renamed into the Army of Republika Srpska. The JNA units. So yes, they
23 did have their army. It was officially the Army of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. All right. Just a moment, please. Survey --
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, let us call up 3847 in e-court
Page 3146
1 after all.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, reference to what was discussed with
3 Mr. Ackerman, of course, the Chamber is not privy of that because it's
4 not in evidence.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You see the document. This is a report of the Command of the
7 1st Krajina Corps dated the 31st of August, 1992. But we need page 2.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] First of all, could you please zoom
9 in on the left part of the document. But first the top of the page, I'm
10 sorry. Could we also have the top of the page in B/C/S, please.
11 Q. The heading is: "Survey of Weapons and Equipment Issued to Staffs
12 and Units of the TO from the 5th Corps." The 5th Corps existed before
13 the 18th of May, 1992; isn't that right?
14 A. The 5th Corps of the JNA.
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Was renamed and became the 1st Corps of the Army of
17 Republika Srpska on the 18th of May.
18 Q. So when it is written here that this is a document of the
19 5th Corps, the time concerned is before the 18th of May. So now I'm
20 going to ask you a question. And you were actually asked --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask --
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The document is weapons and equipment issued to TO
24 staffs and units of the 5th Corps. So let me just try to fully
25 understand what you just said. The time concerned is before the 15th of
Page 3147
1 May -- yes, at least as far as the 5th Corps is concerned. Yes, please
2 proceed. I'm trying to follow. And now and then, if I'm a bit slow,
3 Mr. Lukic, I hope you will for give me.
4 MR. LUKIC: It is a bit confusing because it was merge of two
5 documents, actually. One is from the 1st [Overlapping speakers] --
6 JUDGE ORIE: That may have --
7 MR. LUKIC: -- Corps and the other one is from the 5th Corps of
8 JNA.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it also includes the TO?
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And -- yes.
12 MR. LUKIC: And I'm trying to find ...
13 I'm trying to find -- I will be able to find it later on. I know
14 that I have it. The transcript from Brdjanin trial.
15 And is it appropriate time for the break, Your Honour. It will
16 help me organise.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And then you would have time to find the sources you
18 would like to use.
19 It's a good time for a break. We take a break after the witness
20 has been escorted out of the courtroom.
21 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Mr. Selak.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
Page 3148
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, consultations, please, at a volume that
2 it doesn't -- is not heard by others.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: And preferably during the break.
5 Yes, we received some hard --
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes. I was saved by the bell --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you were [Overlapping speakers] ... yes.
8 MR. LUKIC: -- at the end of the last session, so I discovered,
9 actually, I don't have this excerpt from the transcript and it's not in
10 the system, actually. So I provided Your Honours with a written part.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll try then to get this moment on the basis of
12 the hard copy provided to us. It's always good to be saved, Mr. Lukic.
13 Can the witness be brought into the courtroom. And, meanwhile, I
14 address the parties on filing deadlines.
15 The Chamber noticed that the Defence has been relying for some
16 time on the distribution date of a motion as the trigger date for when a
17 response is to be filed. The Chamber understands that the Defence may
18 have relied on Article 25, paragraph 4, of the directive for the Court
19 Management and Support Services Section, judicial support services, IT
20 121, ref. 2.
21 The Chamber, irrespective of its views whether Article 25 of this
22 directive could overrule Rule 126 bis of the Rules of Procedure and
23 Evidence, wishes to clarify that it orders the parties to abide by
24 Rule 126 bis.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
Page 3149
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber draws the Defence's attention to the
2 Appeals Chamber's case law on this issue two decisions in the Gotovina
3 case of - a decision, the first one - of the 17th of January, 2008, in
4 paragraph 22; and a decision of the 3rd of April, 2012, footnote 8, and
5 expects that the parties comply with deadlines in accordance with this
6 case law which is oriented towards the day of filing rather than the time
7 of distribution. In case of a substantial difference between the day of
8 filing and the time of distribution, parties may request an extension of
9 the deadline.
10 Mr. Selak, it's not very polite to continue talking when you
11 enter the courtroom. Apologies for that. We'll now continue with your
12 cross-examination.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Colonel, we may go on.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I have an excerpt here from a transcript, from the 21st of
18 January, 2003. That is when you discussed this topic with Mr. Ackerman,
19 the one that we'll be discussing now. There's no point in giving you the
20 English version -- or would you like to have the English version?
21 A. No, no.
22 Q. Thank you. That's why I'm going to read this out. 13214 is the
23 page reference. The transcript of the Brdjanin trial. The 21st of
24 January, 2003. I would like to start with line 13.
25 You are actually discussing this table that we have before us now
Page 3150
1 on our screens, and this is what Mr. Ackerman, my colleague, says:
2 "Now, looking again at this document, and bearing in mind that
3 there was war going on in Croatia between Croatian military forces and
4 the JNA, let's just look at each one of these entries here."
5 And then he asks you about the locations listed in this table.
6 He asks you whether Okucani is in Croatia, and you say yes. Then
7 Prnjavor is located close to the Croatian border region. And you say it
8 is not the border region. There is Bosanska Gradiska between them.
9 And then Ackerman says:
10 "What is it, 30 kilometres?"
11 And you say:
12 "That order of magnitude but I'm not sure."
13 Do you remember all of this, witness?
14 A. Yes, yes. I remember the testimony but I don't remember that
15 particular information.
16 Q. All right. He asked you about Petrinja, whether it's in Croatia
17 and you said yes. Would you agree with that today as well?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Krupa is at the border, and you say not quite on the border.
20 It's close.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Omarska, and you say Omarska isn't either. It's in Bosnia. And
23 then -- actually, can you tell us today - part of the text is missing
24 here - how far away from the border is Omarska?
25 A. I think that Omarska, since it's by Prijedor, it's about 35 to 40
Page 3151
1 kilometres, approximately.
2 Q. Thank you. Sanski Most? How far away is it from the border,
3 roughly?
4 A. Sanski Most is a bit closer. I think it's 25 to 30. I was in
5 Sanski Most several times, but I never went to Croatia from there.
6 However, looking at the map it would be 25 to 30 kilometres.
7 Q. Bosanska Gradiska is on the border; right?
8 A. Yes. It's divided by the Sava river.
9 Q. Banja Luka, you say it's 50-odd kilometres.
10 A. Yes, that's the closest in terms of Bosanska Gradiska.
11 Q. And then there's a reference to Western Slavonia. That's in
12 Croatia; right?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Bosanski Novi, it's on the border; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Ackerman is taking you through all of these calibres for
17 automatic rifles, and he is telling you where these weapons ended up. We
18 actually have that on the table in front of us. And then, finally, my
19 colleague, Mr. Ackerman, asks you the following. He says, on page 13216,
20 line 20, Mr. Ackerman says:
21 "Sir, when we analyse -- when you analyse this document, and when
22 you see where these weapons went, a vast majority went either to the
23 border with Croatia, where there was a war going on or to Croatia."
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The reference is not
25 right.
Page 3152
1 JUDGE ORIE: Interpreters draw our attention to the fact that the
2 reference is not right.
3 MR. LUKIC: Hmm.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And it seems that the reference is not right.
5 MR. LUKIC: It seems so, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please find the place of the quote and otherwise
7 take your time and do it at a later moment.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.
9 Q. [Interpretation] I will not need the reference to put the
10 question to the colonel. We will include the reference subsequently.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, it seems to be on page 13215, line 20.
12 MR. LUKIC: No, we passed that, Your Honour. It's obviously some
13 page which is missing at the end. But thank you for your help.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I repeat the page number. It's not recorded
15 correctly. It's 13215.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Indiscernible]
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now it's corrected. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If you proceed, we'll also try to assist you in
19 finding it.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Ackerman asked you as follows:
22 "It was not about the arming of civilians in the middle of
23 Republika Srpska. This document, in essence, shows that there was an
24 ongoing effort to respond to the war in Croatia and to arm those forces
25 who fought over there; is that correct?"
Page 3153
1 And to that question, you answered yes. Your answer is on page
2 13217. If you were asked the same thing again today, would you agree
3 that this is what the document shows, that the forces were being armed on
4 the border and in Croatia?
5 A. Yes. But it applied only to the Serbian people. This is what I
6 would adhere to. Only the Serbian people was being armed.
7 Q. On the Croatian front line ...
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, your mike.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if that would assist you, the quote you
12 were trying to find is on page 13218, and I'm going on to --
13 MR. LUKIC: 9.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- 9. It starts, indeed, at line 20. If you want
15 me to read it --
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- then I will try to do that slowly so as to
18 assist.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The question was the following by Mr. Ackerman:
21 "Q. Now, sir, when you analyse this document as to where these
22 weapons were going, the vast majority of them were going either on the
23 border area next to Croatia, where the war was, or in Croatia. And
24 rather than some scheme that got dreamed up by someone that this was an
25 effort to arm civilians in the middle of Republika Srpska, the document
Page 3154
1 basically shows that it was an effort to deal with the war going on in
2 Croatia and arm the units that were fighting there, doesn't it?"
3 Do you want me to read the answer as well, Mr. Lukic?
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And then you answered -- you said -- and it's a
6 pretty long answer, Mr. Lukic, so tell me when you want me to stop.
7 MR. LUKIC: I would stop after yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You would stop after yes.
9 Yes, but ...
10 Your answer was the following:
11 "Yes. But it also means that the objective, the purpose of this
12 was to protect the Serbian people, as it was said officially, to protect
13 the Serbian people in the area of the Republic of Croatia, and that's the
14 reason why these units remained there. And I repeat: The UN forces
15 controlled these weapons which had to be stored in warehouses. I don't
16 know what happened later. I never visited the area after that. Whether
17 truly the tanks and the guns were in the warehouses or not, I don't know,
18 but I know that they were handed over. You have the document here and
19 the date, but as to the relevant quantities, and if and whether this went
20 to private homes, I don't think so. That was the TO, the local units.
21 I'm not saying paramilitary units because, after all, it was the army
22 that exerted control over these weapons. I mean, if they had issued,
23 handed over the weapons, then they must have had some kind of control
24 over these weapons in order to prevent any abuse."
25 That was the full answer, Mr. Lukic.
Page 3155
1 Now, if -- if I'm able to find it within one minute and a half,
2 then I think that perhaps the other members of the team could do the
3 same. And it's easy. You go to the relevant transcript, you search for
4 the word "analyse," and you have it within one minute.
5 But let me not interrupt the flow of evidence any further.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you for your help, Your Honour. And I have to
8 try to excuse my -- members of our team, since they are doing something
9 else and I was just trying during the break to cover what I missed.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. LUKIC: But it was basically my mistake.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Would you provide the same answer today as you
13 did to Mr. Ackerman?
14 However, I would like to add something to that, Your Honours.
15 The corps was not authorised to supply the illicit -- it would -- should
16 have been done by the logistics base, but this went behind the back of
17 the logistics base because the corps should not have over 5 per cent more
18 weapons for his own contingent. Where did they get all those weapons
19 from?
20 Actually that was a question for you, because this was within
21 your purview.
22 A. Yes, Your Honour, I understand that. The units were withdrawing
23 from Croatia, the corps took weapons, they didn't identify it, they did
24 not first hand it over to the base, but they distributed it by bypassing
25 the base.
Page 3156
1 Q. So that would be your answer?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. In Croatia, in the war-affected area, there were no
4 Bosniaks in practical terms. There were only Serbs and Croats there.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. At that time, Croats attacked the units and facilities of the
7 JNA; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You were asked previously, and I'm going to repeat that question,
10 is it only logical that the JNA would provide weapons to those who were
11 not attacking them rather to those who were attacking them? Does it make
12 any sense?
13 A. Croatia had a referendum in which it proclaimed independence and
14 the JNA units were supposed to withdraw from the territory of Croatia.
15 Therefore, they were the occupying army in the area and it was only
16 normal to fight to liberate one's own territory.
17 Q. Thank you for your explanation. However, you did not provide an
18 answer to my question.
19 A. Well, I did give you my answer.
20 Q. Well, okay. We see on this list - I don't know whether you can
21 see it or not - there is a device called curve metre. What is curve
22 metre?
23 A. Your Honours, this is an instrument which measures distances in
24 kilometres on topographic maps, to provide the officer with the exact
25 distance between his units. According to a topographic map, a curve
Page 3157
1 metre is adjusted to be able to measure distances between various points.
2 Q. Do you know who you gave it to? Because it says others.
3 A. I really can't remember. I -- this really surprises me because I
4 really don't know that I ever gave it to somebody.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, as far as I'm familiar with what a curve
6 metre is, the special feature of it is - and that is different from just
7 measuring distances - is that you can follow routes, roads, there's a
8 little wheel on it, you follow it, and then it measures the distance as
9 if you had been driven over that road. That's my understanding of what a
10 curve metre is. "Curve" standing for "curves," which is not linear
11 distance but through roads. I just raise this so that we have full
12 understanding of what a curve metre really is. If -- unless there's any
13 disagreement.
14 MR. LUKIC: No.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's proceed.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thanks.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. With this regard, you say in the same paragraph, the first note
20 is dated 26 December 1991. I would like to draw your attention to
21 paragraph 8 entitled: "General Vidovic, Assistant for Political
22 Education." And on page 6 it says:
23 "The full recognition of Croatia and Slovenia will not
24 materialise so soon. The United Nations have to give their approval
25 first. B and H will stay with Yugoslavia. The Serbian Republic of
Page 3158
1 Krajina will be part of a new Yugoslavia."
2 My question: At that time, B and H was part of Yugoslavia?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. At that time, it was still the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and
5 Herzegovina. Why were you shocked at the time by the fact that the
6 officer of the federal army was defending the state that he belonged to?
7 A. I don't understand your question.
8 Q. Did you share the same view on that issue at the time, or was
9 your view different?
10 A. If the republics held a referendum --
11 Q. Just a moment, Mr. Selak. We're talking about the 26th December,
12 1991.
13 A. Yes. I attended that meeting, and in my Official Note that I
14 have on me, I recorded that, precisely that.
15 Q. I'm asking you: Was it a normal way of thinking on the part of
16 an officer of the JNA on the 26th of December, 1991, or was that
17 something unusual? Why did you take a note of that?
18 A. It was a normal way of thinking because the political situation
19 in Yugoslavia changed by the day and people started opting for different
20 solutions and different options when it comes to the destiny of
21 Yugoslavia.
22 Q. However, you say that the remarks originate from General Vukovic,
23 the commander of the 5th Corps who, on the 28th of December, 1991, i.e.,
24 two days after the -- this was note, took over from Uzelac, "I was very
25 concerned about Vukovic's remarks." Why did you find this a matter of
Page 3159
1 concern?
2 A. Because I knew that the JNA would resist Croatia and Slovenia
3 that wanted to organise themselves as independent state. My fear came
4 true, there was fighting and thousands of people were dead. It is better
5 to negotiate for 100 years than to wage a war for a year.
6 Q. Well, we agree on that. You say further on that the armoured
7 battalion from Pancevo headed for Kupres and Plitvice lakes. At that
8 time, was that illegal in December 1991?
9 A. No, that was not illegal or unlawful. However, there were
10 battalions in the 7th Army District. But Banja Luka had an armoured
11 battalion. Why didn't the Banja Luka Brigade send its own armoured
12 battalion? Why did it have to arrive from Pancevo? That was my concern.
13 And that pointed to the growing problems.
14 Q. Colonel, how long was the front line that was held by the
15 1st Krajina Corps which was, at that time, the 5th Banja Luka Corps?
16 A. Their zone of responsibility was vast but it was still peacetime
17 and the brigade had 101 tanks.
18 Q. Is it true that the line that was covered by the 5th Corps, as it
19 was known at that time, the front line was over 1200 kilometres long?
20 A. The line of the zone of responsibility of the corps was big, but
21 the line itself was not as long as that.
22 Q. How long was it?
23 A. I really don't know. Please, I don't know.
24 Q. I'm asking if you know. If you don't, it's your legitimate right
25 to say no.
Page 3160
1 A. I'm not sure. I don't want to provide an incorrect answer.
2 Q. Let's go to paragraph 80 in your statement.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, one of the answers of the witness was
4 that it was still peacetime and you asked him about the front lines. I
5 have some difficulties in reconciling front lines with peace.
6 You were talking about front lines.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Not the witness. Do you consider that it was war
9 already?
10 MR. LUKIC: I think --
11 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
12 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... clarified partially, but I
13 can go back to that issue, Your Honour. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least I noticed it.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Selak, indeed, there is some collision here and I think that
17 both you and I understand it but we need to clarify it for everyone else.
18 The front line existed in Croatia; right?
19 A. Yes. In Eastern Slavonia, down there towards the border with
20 Serbia.
21 Q. And when you say that it was peacetime, you are referring to a
22 part of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was covered by the 1st Krajina Corps?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, in paragraph 80, you say:
25 "The next important entry is dated the 24th of February, 1992 ...
Page 3161
1 the Serb municipality of Donji Vakuf had been proclaimed."
2 Then you say:
3 "This could only have been proclaimed because a garrison was
4 stationed in Donji Vakuf and this garrison was part of the 30th Division
5 under the command of Colonel Galic."
6 A. Stanislav, yes.
7 Q. "Donji Vakuf had a Serb minority but they were able to claim it
8 as a Serbian municipality due to military support."
9 Would you agree with me that at this point in time there weren't
10 any conflicts? There weren't any conflicts in the territory of the
11 municipality of Donji Vakuf.
12 A. Was that a question?
13 Q. Yes. Were there any conflicts in Donji Vakuf in February 1992?
14 A. Your Honours, in the municipality of Donji Vakuf, there was a
15 large arms depot within my -- well, I'm saying this conditionally, my
16 logistics base that I commanded. And the 30th Partisan Division that was
17 at Mrkonjic Grad also covered Donji Vakuf. There weren't any combat
18 operations going on.
19 Q. Thank you. This decision to declare a municipality is a
20 political decision and it is the will of certain political parties. It's
21 not the result of combat.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So the army had nothing to do with this kind of declaration or
24 proclamation?
25 A. Well it shouldn't.
Page 3162
1 JUDGE ORIE: Pause, Mr. Lukic.
2 Yes, please answer the question.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no cause for concern
4 because there weren't any combat operations. Now why the Serb people
5 decided to do this, I don't understand. But we see what happened later.
6 Already in May 1992, they blew up the bridge across the Vrbas river, and
7 you could not get to the arms depot in Donji Vakuf and go towards
8 Bugojno. There was no bridge to be crossed, if you take a truck. That's
9 my answer.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. This municipality that had been proclaimed, it did not encompass
12 the entire of the territory of the municipality of Donji Vakuf; right?
13 Only parts of it.
14 A. In the municipality of Donji Vakuf there was a Serb population of
15 about 34 per cent, 60 per cent were Muslims and about 45 -- 4 to 5
16 per cent were Croats. So they proclaimed a municipality there. I mean,
17 they could have their government in the area where the Serbs were only,
18 not throughout the territory of the municipality of Donji Vakuf.
19 Q. Thank you. Now briefly concerning paragraph 84. In this
20 paragraph, you say:
21 "In my diary I have an entry for 4th June 1992 from a briefing at
22 General Djukic's, assistant for logistics on the staff of the Army of
23 Republika Srpska, B and H, who said: The federal government will finance
24 that army, including all persons employed as of 19 May 1992 who had
25 previously been on the federal payroll."
Page 3163
1 My question focuses on the following sentence:
2 "In my view," you go on to say, "this comment by General Djukic
3 shows that the Serbian army in Bosnia-Herzegovina was working for
4 Yugoslavia, considering that the Yugoslav federal government was paying
5 for it."
6 We can also see it on the screen. It's Exhibit 1277. That's an
7 excerpt from the transcript in Dusko Tadic case on 5th June 1996, page
8 1227 [as interpreted], lines 17 through 24.
9 You were asked whether there was a command structure between the
10 Army of Yugoslavia and the Army of Republika Srpska, at that time the
11 Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you said there
12 was no real command structure.
13 How would you testify today, was there a command structure
14 between the JNA and the Bosnian Serbs army or not?
15 A. There was no direct command responsibility, Your Honours.
16 However, in Belgrade, the 30th Personnel Centre was established to deal
17 precisely with the problems and issues of the Serbian army in Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina, and all the active-duty officers of the JNA who remained in
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina received their salaries and retirement pensions
20 from Belgrade. I was one of them.
21 Q. Thank you for that explanation. That was explained extensively
22 enough before this Tribunal. But I would now like to come back to
23 paragraph 65 in your statement.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if something is sufficiently explained
25 before this Tribunal, it doesn't mean that it's in evidence before this
Page 3164
1 Chamber.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
3 Just one second, Your Honour.
4 Q. [Interpretation] In your statement, paragraph 65 --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Before you continue, you referred to the -- was that
6 the Tadic? Yes. "That's an excerpt from the transcript in Dusko Tadic
7 case on the 5th of June, 1996, page 1227, lines 17 through 24."
8 MR. LUKIC: 1277. 1277.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That doesn't resolve my problem. Because as
10 far as I am aware of, the 5th of June, 1996, morning session, starts with
11 page 1838, so I have difficulties in -- now, I could have a look on
12 whether, what you referred to -- let me just try to see whether the text
13 can be found on that day. If not ... I don't find anything. You did not
14 give a literal quote. But at least we cannot find this in the source, as
15 you indicated it.
16 And I rely - and perhaps I shouldn't do that - on the Internet
17 transcript as found on the ICTY web site because that's not an official
18 source. At the same time, I -- when you have shown to have difficulties
19 in coming to the right source, I use this informal source both to assist
20 and now to challenge, to some extent, your reference to the source.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you for assisting. I'll try to respond
22 correctly after the break on this challenge.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. [Interpretation] In paragraph 65: That document conveys the
Page 3165
1 official position of the corps command to all members of the corps. The
2 position expressed in that document is the reason why I left the army.
3 And that was an information report on the situation on the ground dated
4 11 April 1992.
5 So I would like us to see on the screen 18348 in e-court. We
6 have already agreed that the policy of the JNA was to preserve Yugoslavia
7 as a whole and not to allow its breakup along ethnic lines, along
8 republic borders.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment. I have problems today
10 with transcripts from other cases.
11 Q. On page 13194 from the Brdjanin trial, you were asked the
12 question by Mr. Ackerman, and you confirmed in lines 20 to 25, we see the
13 question and answer. You confirmed:
14 "Would you agree today that the Yugoslav army was trying not to
15 allow Yugoslavia break up along ethnic lines?"
16 A. Yes, it was its duty to protect the entire territory of the
17 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the SFRY. That was its reason
18 for existence.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And the date of that transcript, Mr. Lukic, which
20 you --
21 MR. LUKIC: The date is, Your Honour, 20th of January, 2003.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask Mr. Lukic to actually read
24 the passage. I believe what he has paraphrased is somewhat different.
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I can do that, Your Honour, so Colonel can get a
Page 3166
1 proper translation.
2 Q. Mr. Ackerman asks you: [In English] It's correct - isn't it? -
3 that the official policy of the JNA was to keep Yugoslavia together and
4 oppose the ethnic breakup of Yugoslavia.
5 And your answer on the line 25 was:
6 "Yes."
7 [Interpretation] You answered that question yes. Would you
8 answer yes today to the same question?
9 A. Yes, Your Honours, with one proviso. The composition of the
10 officer cadre of the Yugoslav army at that time was 60-something
11 per cent, Serbs and Montenegrins, and only 30 per cent were Croats,
12 Macedonians, and others. It was quite clear at that time who was
13 dominating the Yugoslav army, and they wanted domination over the whole
14 territory of Yugoslavia.
15 Q. According to this report, one of the sentences is:
16 "The greatest suffering is in Kupres where fierce fighting is
17 taking place between the armed formations of Croatia and the Serbian
18 people from these areas. The objective of the Croatian state's
19 diabolical plans is to take Kupres (regardless of casualties) and to join
20 up the BH HDZ paramilitaries along the Bugojno-Doboj-Bosanski Brod axis."
21 Do you know that there were HVO forces around Bugojno?
22 A. Yes. And they had been established by the Croatian population
23 from Bugojno and from around Bugojno against Kupres.
24 Q. Would connecting this transversal Bugojno, Kupres, Bosanski Brod,
25 would the uniting of HOS and ZNG units, both of them Croatian, cut off
Page 3167
1 the Bosnian Krajina and the Croatian Krajina from the rest of the
2 territories held at that time by the Serbs and from Serbia?
3 A. Yes. Croatia committed aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina
4 precisely in that area.
5 Q. It is mentioned here that 28 people were killed by having their
6 throats slit. Did you hear about that?
7 A. I can't remember. It was a long time ago. I can't answer that
8 question. I don't remember.
9 Q. Would you recall it if I told you there was a crime in the
10 villages of Donji and Gornji Malovan?
11 A. I can't remember the details.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. Yes, Your Honour, General Mladic was there but it was in Bihac
14 when Bihac was about to fall before the Serbian forces. Yes, that's when
15 you were there.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic should not intervene during the
17 examination of the witness.
18 But no such question was asked, was it?
19 Mr. Lukic? Or did I miss anything?
20 Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: No, there was no question. There was no question in
22 that regard.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you refrain from spontaneously telling us
24 matters you think are relevant but are not part of the question.
25 Please proceed.
Page 3168
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He provoked me, Your Honour.
3 General Mladic did.
4 JUDGE ORIE: If Mr. Mladic addressed the witness at that time,
5 then one more word in the presence of the witness, which addresses him,
6 Mr. Mladic, and that is considered to be inappropriate behaviour, which
7 may lead to being removed from the courtroom. So I would urge you to
8 refrain from ever doing it again.
9 Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: If I may explain, Your Honour, how I understood. The
11 words from Mr. Mladic were addressed to me just telling me the names of
12 two villages I repeated to this witness. So I --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Lukic, I have urged again and again that if
14 Mr. Mladic wants to consult with you, he should do it at low voice so as
15 not to be heard by anyone else, and now we see the results that -- what
16 happens if he doesn't do that.
17 And during breaks, Mr. Mladic, you always can provide further
18 information or can you provide it to Mr. Stojanovic if at a low voice,
19 not to be heard by other persons in this courtroom. You can -- you may
20 remain seated, Mr. Mladic. No reason to stand. And please switch off
21 your microphone.
22 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. [Interpretation] In this same document towards the bottom of the
25 page --
Page 3169
1 JUDGE ORIE: Low voice, I said, Mr. Mladic.
2 And Mr. Lukic -- I --
3 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Mladic is just repeated that he didn't address
4 Colonel Selak and that he was just addressing me.
5 JUDGE ORIE: There is no need to do that. You have told us and I
6 have explained that this is the result of not following the instructions
7 he has received on consulting with counsel.
8 Let's proceed.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. [Interpretation] So you see towards the bottom of the page,
11 fourth line from below:
12 "Fire was opened at military installations mostly from infantry
13 weapons but also from artillery weapons."
14 Do you know how come the attacking forces had artillery?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we have to find our source. We can
16 choose from 30 lines and are unable to immediately spot it.
17 MR. LUKIC: If you give me one second.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. LUKIC: The problem is that paragraphs are different in the
20 English version.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Just after the words "in open parliament" in
22 quotations marks.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
24 MR. LUKIC: It's on the first page.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we --
Page 3170
1 MR. LUKIC: 15 rows from the bottom.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that. And also from the
3 interpreters who are actively following.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. My question was this: Do you know where did the forces attacking
6 JNA got their artillery weapons from?
7 A. Didn't have any artillery weapons. This is a piece of false
8 information. They had rifles and sniping rifles. I know that. But they
9 didn't have any artillery. They didn't have the -- that because the
10 police and the military organisation would have confiscated those. This
11 is false. This is a lie. This is not true.
12 Q. At that time were some military depots already taken over?
13 A. In the city of Sarajevo, some were. I don't know about the
14 general area.
15 Q. So you don't know how the attacking forces were armed in the
16 first place?
17 A. Those were fuel storages and quartermasters' depots. There were
18 no ammunition depots in the city, Your Honours.
19 Q. All right. Who launched those attacks?
20 A. Groups that were organised and that were in favour of the
21 independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina from Yugoslavia. That was the
22 initial fight for independence, because the army covered the republic and
23 did not allow any activities to that effect.
24 Q. Very well. On page 2 -- I'm looking for page 2, please.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you seek clarification as to the
Page 3171
1 source of knowledge, especially of the last answer. Who the attacks
2 launched, how do you know?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleagues lived
4 in Sarajevo. Other officers, my brothers, sisters, my relatives, they
5 all lived there and I received the exact information as to what was going
6 on in Sarajevo because I communicated with my colleagues and brothers and
7 sisters on a daily basis, and that's where I got my information from and
8 I adhere about what I learnt from them.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Were they themselves involved in these attacks or
10 was it hearsay for them as well?
11 A. I didn't ask them where the information was from. However, my
12 nephew, unfortunately, got killed during those activities. He was killed
13 by the army.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic. For a couple of minutes
15 and then we take a break. Unless this would be a suitable moment for a
16 break.
17 MR. LUKIC: We can break here, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine.
19 Mr. Selak, we take a break. Would you please follow the usher.
20 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes from now.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, your on your feet. Are you preparing to
24 start the break or is there another reason?
25 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. I was just going to say that I do
Page 3172
1 have some additional information with respect to the topic that was
2 discussed this morning that I would like to say at some point today, but
3 I'll leave it to the Chamber to decide when.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Was it about the video?
5 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, we were waiting for written
7 submissions. Now if you could share your information with Mr. Lukic and
8 see whether that brings you any step further.
9 MR. GROOME: Well, Your Honour, there has been a suggestion that
10 the Prosecution hasn't fulfilled its Rule 68 obligation, and I never like
11 to leave that unspoken or unclarified for too long.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You would tell us when you disclosed the
13 information, the statement of the author. Is that?
14 MR. GROOME: In essence, Your Honour, pursuant to the Chamber's
15 direction yesterday to investigate the matter further we identified this
16 statement. Upon checking with our disclosure log for this particular
17 case, we could not find an entry for it so we disclosed it immediately.
18 This morning while -- we did that before we checked the records of the
19 general EDS collection.
20 We have now done that this morning and the statement was
21 available to the Defence on the general EDS, and I think just to make the
22 point that we disclosed without checking the EDS because our
23 understanding is that under 68(ii) with respect to -- to giving a
24 collection a searchable format, if we come across something that we have
25 actual knowledge of should be disclosed, despite whatever is on the EDS,
Page 3173
1 we would go ahead and disclose it, and that's why we took that step
2 yesterday.
3 So this may change Mr. Stojanovic's position with respect to any
4 future application.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think his concerns went beyond what was said --
6 MR. LUKIC: Just one second. We printed EDS system, searching
7 for this document, and it wasn't there.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now perhaps that was exactly what I
9 suggested, that you would, during the break, meet and see to what extent
10 your information is -- is affirmed. Perhaps you have used different
11 search term or whatever. But I still encourage you, before making any
12 written submissions, to exchange whatever information there is.
13 We take a break, and we resume at ten minutes past 12.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 11.52 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
17 MR. LUKIC: If I may, Your Honour, before the witness is in,
18 because we don't need him for this.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: We were discussing about Dusko Tadic's transcript.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: And -- 1D273. We have it as 1D273 in the system, if
23 we can see it on the screen. And we can see the date and the page and
24 line numbers.
25 [The witness entered court]
Page 3174
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
2 MR. LUKIC: And if you think, I can quote it to the witness if
3 you think it's necessary.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't think we need to have it in evidence
5 if you can -- if you limit yourself to quote. Although, with the last
6 portion I would have an observation there, but I'd rather not do it in
7 the presence of the witness.
8 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hm.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll continue, Mr. Selak.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
11 Q. We left off with a document - please bear with me for a moment.
12 We were talking about whether there was artillery or not. And then on
13 the second page --
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see that the document is not in
15 e-court. Its 65 ter number is 18348. In the English version, it's the
16 last paragraph on the second page. In B/C/S, also the last long
17 paragraph at the bottom of the page, where it says:
18 "The rump BH Presidency held a meeting on the 9th of April 1992
19 and placed all armed elements, excludeing the JNA and the MUP, under a
20 single command."
21 Q. Do you know today, or did you know at the time, what were the
22 armed elements that the rump Presidency placed under its command?
23 A. Yes. Those were Territorial Defence units in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
24 All the volunteer units were incorporated into the TO Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 I am excluding the territory of the Banja Luka Corps and the north-east
Page 3175
1 Bosnia in the direction of Brcko. In the rest of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
2 the Territorial Defence was set up and those units were incorporated into
3 it. They purchased weapons from JNA members, amongst others.
4 Q. Is the document accurate where it says that the Presidency of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina invites officers and civilians to leave the army and
6 join their ranks. Is that true?
7 A. Your Honours, the person who drafted this document was
8 Colonel Mesud Hasotic. I never wanted to socialise with him because he
9 was an extremist. I even didn't want to read his documents, including
10 this one, because I did not agree with his opinions.
11 Q. Since we have mentioned Hasotic's name, he is a Muslim?
12 A. Yes, he hails from Sandzak, and until the very end of the war he
13 stayed with the Banja Luka Corps because his son lived in Novi Pazar, so
14 he feared for his life. And I understand fully why he acted in this way.
15 He was fearful for his son's life.
16 Q. What was going on in Novi Pazar to make him so fearful for the
17 life of his son?
18 A. Over there, the police of the Republic of Serbia, there was an
19 operation and everybody knows what they were capable of. If Hasotic did
20 not behave adequately in the Banja Luka Corps, there would have been
21 consequences. A lot of bad things happened. People were beaten up and
22 so on and so forth.
23 Q. You said that you never read his reports. Did you socialise with
24 Colonel Hasotic?
25 A. No, I didn't. He came into my office once or maybe twice
Page 3176
1 throughout that whole time.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let me -- can I stop you there. We started with a
3 question about the content of the document. We're now dealing with the
4 socialising and whether his son was living where and why he was afraid.
5 But I would like to have an answer to the question.
6 The question was: Whether, to your knowledge, the Presidency of
7 Bosnia and Herzegovina invited officers and civilians to leave the army
8 and to join their ranks. That was the question.
9 If you know, tell us; if you don't know, tell us as well.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I know that's
11 true. There was requests for the officers and civilians to leave the JNA
12 and to join the TO.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Now that was the question, Mr. Selak. You started
14 telling us that you didn't want to socialise with the author of the
15 document. Why not just answer the question? Apparently a simple yes
16 would have done.
17 And, Mr. Lukic, if the witness does not answer the question, try
18 to take him back and do not follow him in straying away from what you
19 apparently wanted to elicit from him. Please proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll just have to -- still
21 to follow what he said, because he said this is not true.
22 JUDGE ORIE: He said it was -- he now says it was true.
23 MR. LUKIC: No. Yes. Of course.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No. At the time he didn't say it's not true. He
25 said I didn't read it is because I didn't like him, et cetera, et cetera.
Page 3177
1 He didn't say a word about the quote you gave.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Let me finish with just one more question. Did Colonel Hasotic
5 tell you personally that he was afraid for his son's life, which is why
6 he drafted the documents in the way he did?
7 A. I can't remember where that information came from. However, my
8 other colleagues had an adequate opinion.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer is, no, he didn't tell you personally;
10 isn't it? Because that was the question, Mr. Selak.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember whether he was the
12 one who told me that or not. I can't remember the details.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. [Interpretation] What about your son? Was he a member of the
17 VRS?
18 A. My older son was a doctor and he was mobilised into the medical
19 corps of the Banja Luka Corps in 1992. And, yes, he was a member. Until
20 the moment he went to Belgrade and then onwards to Germany where he still
21 resides.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up --
23 or, rather, before that, I would like to tender this document into
24 evidence. Its number is 18348. We had a rather lengthy discussion about
25 the document?
Page 3178
1 MR. GROOME: No objection, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 18348 shall be
4 assigned Exhibit D52. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D52 is admitted into evidence.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. And now I would like to
7 call up 1D281 in e-court.
8 Q. This is a transcript page from the Brdjanin trial dated 20
9 January 2003, and the page number is 13202.
10 On line 11 --
11 A. This is in English, what I have on the screen.
12 Q. Yes. This is just for the Judges. I'm going to read that for
13 you?
14 The question is this. I'm going read to read that for you. The
15 question is this -- I'm going to read in English and the interpreters
16 will interpret it for you.
17 [In English] "It's correct, isn't it, that prior to 1991,
18 according to your estimate, about 90 per cent of the officers in the JNA
19 were Serb? Immediately prior to 1991."
20 [Interpretation] Your answer was:
21 [In English] "No. I think that 90 per cent were of the Serb and
22 Montenegrin ethnicity, and there is also official information to that
23 effect."
24 According to you, were 90 per cent of the members, as you stated
25 at that time, would you say the same thing today?
Page 3179
1 A. No, I made a mistake. It was about 70 per cent. I had incorrect
2 information. In my satchel, Your Honours, I have a census from 1981 and
3 from 1991, and we're talking about 70 per cent of Serbs and Montenegrins.
4 I made a mistake.
5 Q. Very well. Further on, on page --
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D282, which
7 is also a page from the Brdjanin case transcript, and the page number is
8 13203, 20 January 2003, in lines 5 through 7.
9 Q. Mr. Ackerman asked you:
10 [In English] "By the end of 1991, that percentage had increased
11 to 99 per cent Serbs; [interpretation] is this correct?"
12 And you say:
13 "Yes, yes."
14 Would you say the same, that by the end of 1999 there were 99
15 per cent of Serbs in the JNA?
16 A. Yes. In July, 1991, there was a mobilisation for the JNA and
17 only the Serbs responded. The Croats and the Bosniaks did not, those who
18 resided in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And that had an enormous impact on the
19 ethnic composition of the JNA. People who had failed to respond to the
20 call-up, both Muslims and Croats, were brought in by the police.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selak, if you say 99 per cent, is this a precise
22 calculation or is it just a general impression that almost all of them
23 were Serbs?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is an estimate. I'm talking
25 about the Banja Luka Corps and the logistics base. And that was the kind
Page 3180
1 of composition we had. It -- it was a -- an estimate. There are very
2 few Croats and Muslims among the officer cadre, but no soldiers at all.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Lukic, I asked this question to the
4 witness because often he expresses himself, as far as numbers are
5 concerned, in a way which is -- well, not -- I would say is not the
6 accurate number but is more of an impression. For example, if he says
7 that Sanski Most is closer to the border than Banja Luka, looking at the
8 map might learn you -- might teach you otherwise. And whether it's 25 or
9 30 kilometres, or perhaps 50, that's -- so the Chamber will understand
10 these matters unless you clarify it as rough estimates expressing more a
11 general view than precise numbers.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] The growth in percentage, as you stated it
15 yourself, the growth in the participation of Serbs in JNA units in the
16 territory of the corps that you belonged in was a consequence of the war
17 in Croatia; right?
18 A. Well, I'm sure that that had an impact.
19 Q. And you say that people were brought in, Muslims and Croats were
20 brought in by the police for not responding.
21 A. Yes, they were. I issued wanted notes against some of them.
22 That was in July 1991.
23 Q. So they were called by the army, but they turned the call down?
24 A. Yes. Because they did not consider JNA their own army as a
25 result of the politics.
Page 3181
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 65 ter number
3 2838.
4 Q. This document was issued during the war, on the 1st of June,
5 1992. Page 2 in this document, which is 1 in English, towards the very
6 end of the page, refers to the heaviest fighting which took place in the
7 area of Hambarine, Prijedor, and Kozarac. We are coming back to
8 Prijedor, although it is already the month of June. It says here, on
9 line 7, which is the following page in English, on the top of page 2, it
10 says:
11 "Among those who were arrested, there is a number of officers and
12 organisers of paramilitary formations."
13 Did you know then, or do you perhaps know today, which officers
14 are referred to in here? Were there any members of the JNA among them or
15 were those some other officers?
16 A. Your Honours, this involves Zarko Tole, Colonel Zarko Tole, a
17 Croat, and Stanic, Anto, a Croat also. They were former members of the
18 JNA who had joined the HVO at that time, in May 1992.
19 Q. Thank you. At the time did you know anything about infiltrated
20 groups in the territory that was covered by your corps? At that point in
21 time, it was already the 1st Krajina Corps.
22 A. Yes. Your Honours, at a meeting at the corps command -- or,
23 rather, at all meetings of the corps command, regular information was
24 provided to officers about that. I attended these meetings, and that's
25 why I received this information. So, yes, I was kept abreast of all of
Page 3182
1 that, yes.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. LUKIC: Bear with me, Your Honours. I'm trying to go
4 forward.
5 Q. [Interpretation] When the Yugoslav People's Army left
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the 18th of May you requested retirement. From
7 that moment, you became a member of the Army of the Serb Republic of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, later on the Army of Republika Srpska; is that right?
9 A. Yes. Because all units of the JNA were renamed into the Army of
10 Republika Srpska, including my logistics base. The one that I commanded.
11 But I immediately submitted a request for retirement.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I now please have in e-court
13 1D278.
14 Q. This is the Brdjanin trial, the 20th of January, 2003, and
15 transcript page 13181. We need lines 8 through 12. Again, I'm going to
16 read this out in English so that you would receive a correct
17 interpretation.
18 [In English] "And in that connection, being a Serb army, it would
19 not be unusual or improper or out of line for there to be a legitimate
20 concern about the loyalty of non-Serb officers, would it?"
21 And your answer, in line 12, was:
22 "I agree?"
23 A. Is that a question or?
24 Q. No, not yet. Now, line 16. And when you say is this a question,
25 I can ask you, actually, whether you'd said this today as well. And this
Page 3183
1 would be normal procedure for an army to ask for its members to be loyal?
2 A. Well, every army on the face of the earth asks for loyalty from
3 its members.
4 Q. Well, if they're not loyal, is it surprising or strange that they
5 don't want to have them in their ranks any longer?
6 A. Well, there are other measures too. Disciplinary measures. And
7 also re-training, re-education.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now, on this same page, can we look
9 at pages 16 through 18.
10 Q. You were appointed as the liaison officer with UNPROFOR before
11 you asked for retirement; right?
12 A. Yes, in March 1992. But I had been dismissed because I lacked
13 political eligibility or, rather, ethnic eligibility. There's a document
14 here, Your Honours, where the corps command states that.
15 Q. So this hostile corps command, what position did they assign to
16 you after you had been dismissed, as you said? Which position did you go
17 to then?
18 A. I returned to the position that I had left before taking up this
19 post, so that's commander of the logistics base.
20 Q. I see. So was this some kind of punishment? What was your
21 understanding of that?
22 A. Lack of confidence.
23 Q. And they returned you to be commander yet again?
24 A. Well, they couldn't pension me off. It was only logical for them
25 to return me to the post I'd held.
Page 3184
1 Q. You yourself said that other measures could have been taken.
2 They could have also taken your rank from you. They could have demoted
3 you. They didn't do any such thing; right?
4 A. Well, they could have liquidated me too, but there was no reason
5 for that. I behaved fairly, honestly, and in a proper, professional
6 manner as commander of the logistics base. So there's no reason for
7 disciplinary measures. But it was a question of political eligibility,
8 not professional, and that is what this document says. That was signed
9 by General Talic. Because of that kind of lack of eligibility.
10 Q. Just a moment, please.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Did they demote you? Did they strip your rank?
14 A. No, nothing. They returned me to my post.
15 Q. Thank you. Just a moment, please.
16 My colleague, Mr. Ackerman, also ask you whether you had any
17 problems while you served in the Army Republika Srpska as a Muslim?
18 A. No, I personally did not have any problems.
19 Q. Thank you. Could you now please take a look at 1D279. It's also
20 from the Brdjanin trial. 13183 is the page reference. The date of trial
21 is the 20th of January, 2003. There's a reference to General Uzelac.
22 And it says that he was always in this group of leaders of the SDS, that
23 they had dinners and other parties. And my colleague, Mr. Ackerman,
24 asked you, from page -- or, rather, line 17 onwards:
25 [In English] "And this group that was out at dinner parties
Page 3185
1 almost every night where all the decisions were made actually wanted you
2 to join them, didn't they, to become part of that group?"
3 And your answer, at line 21, was:
4 "That is my understanding, yes."
5 A. Is that a question?
6 Q. [Interpretation] Is that this lack of confidence that was
7 expressed to you, or was it you who expressed a lack of confidence in the
8 group that asked you to join them?
9 A. Your Honours, the Crisis Staff of Banja Luka involved Serbs only
10 who held high positions in the Bosnian Krajina. They lived in Banja Luka
11 at the time, and, indeed, they did meet several times in a restaurant.
12 Once I was present as well. General Uzelac invited me. When I what it
13 was that was discussed, I decided I no longer wished to attend so that I
14 would not be seen communicating with such persons. Because I did not
15 agree with that policy.
16 Q. My question is: Is it correct that they trusted you and that
17 they wanted to have you with them?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it correct that you did not trust them and that you did not
20 want them with you?
21 A. It's not that I didn't trust them. I didn't agree with the
22 topics that were being discussed and the drinking that took place, these
23 large amounts of alcohol.
24 Q. All right.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Would you tell us, Witness, what the subjects of
Page 3186
1 discussion were, so that we better understand your testimony.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these were political
3 topics about the breakup of Yugoslavia, that certain political parties
4 and groups wished to break up Yugoslavia. That is what was discussed, as
5 well as national policy. Especially what was going on in the Bosnian
6 Krajina, because the Crisis Staff covered all of the Bosnian Krajina, and
7 it was the highest organ of government at that point in time in the
8 Bosnian Krajina.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If you say it -- national policy, could you explain
10 what you meant by that? What was the gist of the national policy they
11 discussed?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at those meetings, I
13 never saw a single Croat. I was the only Bosniak there. This seemed
14 symptomatic to me. Because there were others who held higher positions
15 than I did in government and in other organs of authority, and I wondered
16 why they were not invited to these gatherings. This carousing, if I can
17 call it that. That would be an answer to your question.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if I understand you well, then your answer is
19 you felt uncomfortable in company where there were only Serbs and where
20 other Croats and Muslims were apparently not welcome. Is that how I have
21 to understand your answer?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 [Interpretation] Now I would kindly ask that 65 ter 18349 be
Page 3187
1 called up in e-court, please.
2 I have to ask the Prosecutor for clarification. This was not
3 supposed to be under seal, was it?
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I don't believe so. But in an exercise
5 of caution, could we have the witness look at it because it relates to
6 him personally and perhaps he can tell us whether there's any problem
7 with it being shown publicly.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So not to be broadcasted at this moment until the
9 witness has said anything about it.
10 MR. LUKIC: Can you go to a private session first.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
12 [Private session]
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
Page 3188
1 you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Selak, you know best what you wrote and why you wrote what
5 you did in this document, but I'm not going to ask you to explain to us.
6 This introduction, for instance, where it says the information from the
7 period 1991 through 1995 is from the region of Banja Luka. Is that the
8 period you covered in this letter?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In paragraph 2 you say, I'm providing a list of information, in
11 bullet points.
12 "In mid-May 1991, the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina
13 was armed and equipped as resistance to the order of General Uzelac for
14 arming the Serbian population in the municipalities of the Banja Luka
15 region. This is why I asked General Jovanovic, assistant commander for
16 logistics, to remove me from the post of commander for logistics. I did
17 not issue any weapons, but that caused me personal problems later on ..."
18 What kind of problems did you have, Colonel, because you did not
19 obey the order of your superior?
20 A. Your Honours, General Uzelac was not my superior. I was
21 subordinated directly to the 1st Military District in Belgrade and
22 General Jovanovic was in Belgrade. The units that required weapons -- in
23 fact, the units for which they required weapons, were not linked to the
24 entire force. Only the Serbian force. That's the information I had.
25 And Uzelac was not able to give me orders to supply weapons because he
Page 3189
1 was not my superior. And that later caused problems between me and
2 General Uzelac.
3 Q. What kind of problems; can you tell us?
4 A. Because these units were --
5 Q. I only want to know what kind of personal problems you had.
6 A. Well, just for example, General Uzelac invited me the regular
7 briefings before at the time when they began; whereas, after that, he
8 invited me for one hour after the beginning. So obviously they wanted to
9 discuss certain things without me and they avoided contact with me in
10 other ways.
11 Q. I want to clarify this now, although we've already discussed it,
12 but you are making me revisit the subject. And you say again that Uzelac
13 was not your superior?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. You were not on his staff or his command?
16 A. No, no.
17 Q. Your presence was not obligatory?
18 A. It wasn't.
19 Q. It was normal for you to come when he invites you?
20 A. But the understanding was that I should attend their meetings to
21 hear about the problems related to logistics so that I could tell my
22 organs to speed up their work to address those problems, not to go
23 through administration and correspondence because that is much slower.
24 That's why they invited me to these meetings.
25 Q. But you don't attend when you're not invited; correct?
Page 3190
1 A. Yes. In fact, from that time on I was still invited but with a
2 delay?
3 Q. Is that the same Uzelac who invited you to dinner parties, the
4 one you are now having problems with?
5 A. He had invited me before. After this point, he never invited me
6 again.
7 Q. So after May 1991, he never invited you again?
8 A. I can't remember that I ever attended one of their parties again.
9 The priority parties certainly not. Some of the official meetings, yes.
10 But he liked alcohol. Everybody who knew him knew that, and his entire
11 company liked to drink. I simply didn't belong in that company, and I'm
12 happy about that.
13 Q. Mr. Ackerman discussed with you the time when there was the Army
14 of Republika Srpska already in existence, and I also understood when
15 examining you today that you were talking about the same period, that
16 they were inviting you to those dinner parties after 18 May 1992.
17 A. After the 18th of May? You say that I stated that?
18 Q. Well, it follows from the questions and answers. Because you
19 talk about the Crisis Staff and other --
20 A. I never attended sessions of the Crisis Staff.
21 Q. We are talking about the group of people, including members of
22 the Crisis Staff and General Uzelac. That group extended invitations to
23 you. You were testifying in Brdjanin about that period. Are you talking
24 about the same period today when the Army of Republika Srpska already
25 existed in the Autonomous Region of Krajina?
Page 3191
1 A. On the 28th December 1991, General Uzelac left Banja Luka. He
2 got a transfer. When the Army of Republika Srpska was established on 18
3 May 1992, I had quite normal official and private contacts with my
4 colleagues from the corps of the same rank, same level.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber considers that it is
6 sufficiently informed about this matter at this moment. So would you
7 please move on.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, I plan to do so. Thank you.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Next you say, under para 2, fifth bullet point.
10 It's still page 2 in B/C/S. That's page 2 in English. You say:
11 "The transport of artillery ammunition from Donji Vakuf to the
12 Ustikolina depot, a barricade of the HDZ in Vitez. That the ammunition
13 had arrived from Slovenia and Croatia. On that occasion General Uzelac
14 passed on the order that vehicles had to go through, otherwise there
15 would be air-raids. At the office of the PSO, chairman of the Municipal
16 Assembly of Vitez, Ivica Santic, I received the same order on the phone
17 from a colonel, head of the technical service of the 1st Military
18 District, Ivo Pantelic."
19 Tell us, what is this PSO Santic, Vitez?
20 A. President of the municipal assembly.
21 Q. "I phoned the PSO of Vitez, Ivica Santic," does it mean the same
22 thing?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What does "gen" mean?
25 A. Just give me the context, I'll tell you. Maybe it means
Page 3192
1 "general," maybe --
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on this passage.
3 Q. Can you see it now? "The transport of artillery ammunition ..."
4 You can't see this part of the page where it's deleted. Now you can see
5 it. The word here was "gen," and then it's stricken through and PSO.
6 A. I had made a mistake. First of all, I said general, but Santic
7 was, in fact, the president of the municipal assembly in Vitez. That was
8 my mistake.
9 Q. You go on to say:
10 "Along with this, at one point when we were alone, I shared with
11 him some information. After that, I spoke to him several times on the
12 phone from Banja Luka, meaning with PSO Vitez, Ivica Santic, who thanked
13 me and invited me to visit him."
14 Did this Ivica Santic later receive a rank?
15 A. I have no clue, Your Honours, whether he got a rank. He was a
16 civilian, president of the Municipal Assembly. Why would he need have a
17 rank? I see no reason whatsoever. He thanked me because there could
18 have been an explosion --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Simple question, did he receive a rank later?
20 I have no clue. That does for an answer.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Q. Did you hear that there was a general, Ivica Santic in Bihac?
24 A. What did you say.
25 Q. There was a general, Ivica Santic in Bihac. Did you hear about
Page 3193
1 that?
2 A. I hear of it for the first time.
3 Q. What kind of information did you provide to Santic?
4 A. I told him that because the ammunition, live ammunition and air
5 bombs and mines and explosives were transported from Croatia to my
6 ammunition depot in Donji Vakuf, and we were keeping this dangerous
7 material in open air. I informed the command in Belgrade about the
8 problem and the danger it posed when such things are kept in open air,
9 and I asked that my ammunition be moved to Ustikolina near Foca, which is
10 Eastern Bosnia, the border with Serbia where there was a large ammunition
11 depot.
12 One member of the HVO, Dario Kordic, who is now serving his
13 sentence, organised the blockade, a roadblock in Karnik [phoen] to stop
14 this column from passing. The general told me to go there urgently and
15 solve the problem. And I told Santic, if there's an explosion it will
16 kill many people because these are explosives we are dealing with.
17 That's what the conversation was about, and I was there when he realised
18 that, and then I got orders from Belgrade to tell Santic if they don't
19 let the column through, the air force would bomb Vitez municipality.
20 That was the issue. And the column passed through. The Minister of the
21 Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Avdo Hebib, came to help in the
22 negotiations, and the column was escorted to Kalinovik.
23 Q. The next bullet point begins with the words: "In September ..."
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In English, it's on page 2. The
25 third bullet point from the top.
Page 3194
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, all of the Judges are lost as far as the
2 relevance of all this. We see that it's apparently a letter with
3 information passed to the son of the witness and then to be available to
4 others. But what this has -- what the relevance is for the charges in
5 the indictment is totally unclear to us at this moment. So if you put
6 questions, try to do it in such a way that had the Chamber does
7 understand the relevance of those questions.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Then I'll try to ask a different
9 question.
10 Q. You know what you wrote here, that you had ordered a simulated
11 explosion in the depot contrary to Uzelac's orders, that you chose a man
12 of confidence, a captain, and ordered him to simulate an explosion in the
13 depot, and there are more examples of the same kind. So I'm asking you,
14 is it true that more than once you acted against the interests and the
15 orders of the then-Yugoslav army?
16 A. Your Honours, I am proud of this. Because the Banja Luka Corps,
17 or, rather, the leadership of the Yugoslav People's Army ordered the
18 commander of the 5th Military District -- in fact, when he withdrew to
19 Banja Luka he ordered me, following orders from Uzelac, to get all the
20 fuel out and ammunition from Karlovac and to set mines to the
21 installation, to the depot. I went there with a team of experts, and I
22 didn't agree with it. But I saw that tank trucks from Serbia
23 transporting fuel, and I stopped that attempt to explode, to blow up the
24 depot. Somebody from -- from -- from the top came to inspect. I told
25 them that I made preparations to blow the place up, but I was -- I was
Page 3195
1 lying. I hadn't done that.
2 In the same way, I stopped the blowing up of the -- of the
3 hospital because they wanted to do that only because the units of the JNA
4 were leaving. The hospital in Zagreb.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the witness to
6 speak a little more slowly.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you slow down, Mr. Selak.
8 Mr. Lukic, if you would ...
9 [Defence counsel confer]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. Lukic, your last question was a bit
11 confusing because it was a composite question. You asked whether it was
12 true whether he acted against the interests and the orders of the then
13 Yugoslav Army. You can act in favour of the interests and against
14 orders, you can act in favour of the interests and following orders.
15 That -- it's a --
16 MR. LUKIC: I'll try to clarify.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well I'm not -- I think from the answer of the
18 witness I understood, but please correct me when I'm wrong, Mr. Selak. I
19 did understand your answer to be that to the extent you may not have
20 always followed orders, it was in order to avoid dangerous situations.
21 Is that short -- a short summary of your answer? Would that ...
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And the damage to the economy
23 of Yugoslav in the area of Croatia, because that was a crime. It would
24 be a crime.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
Page 3196
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you again say to Mr. Mladic he
3 should not speak at a volume which is heard by others in this courtroom.
4 I hear it through my earphones. He should stop doing that. Because
5 we [Overlapping speakers] ...
6 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- what he says and earlier today the witness
8 complained about it. So it's really the last warning in this respect.
9 At the same time, I'm looking at the clock. It is --
10 MR. LUKIC: It is time.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- time for a break. Then whatever is there to be
12 discussed can be discussed during the break.
13 And if after the break you want to further deal with the matter,
14 then you are, of course, free to do so. But otherwise please move on.
15 And could I ask you whether - already inviting the usher to
16 escort the witness out of the courtroom, a break, Mr. Selak - Mr. Lukic,
17 are you on track as far as your cross-examination is concerned?
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, I should finish by the end of the
19 day.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And try to focus on the most relevant matters.
21 We take a break and resume at 1.30.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 --- Recess taken at 1 .11 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.30 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
Page 3197
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel Selak, we'll still dealing with that
5 letter of yours. And the first paragraph on the second page of the B/C/S
6 version, so we need page 2 in B/C/S. In the English version, it's
7 page 2, the fourth bullet point from the top.
8 Let me not read all of it now. You say that what had been
9 ordered was to deal with a factory in Hrvatska Dubica, to quickly
10 dismantle it you sent an expert team with a captain, a mechanical
11 engineer, a trustworthy man of yours who stated in his report that the
12 factory was fully intact and fully operation. You say I did not allow
13 the machines to be dismantled and because of that the command of the
14 5th Corps and the political leaders of the SDS caused me a lot of
15 problems, threatened me, and so on. This factory, why was it important?
16 Why was it important to dismantle it?
17 A. Because it was in Croatia and they wanted it to be dismantled and
18 sent to Serbia.
19 Q. It wasn't of a military nature.
20 A. No. It was purely civilian materials.
21 Q. Were other occasions where you disobeyed orders?
22 A. Well, I did not obey the order to blow up the military hospital
23 in Zagreb and --
24 Q. How come? Are you a mining expert? Are you an engineer? How
25 would you get this kind of order to blow up a factory in Zagreb?
Page 3198
1 A. But, yes, I had specialists for ammunition who worked for me, who
2 were under my command, and they were the ones who dealt with this
3 anywhere at any time. De-mining, I mean, explosive materials and so on.
4 So it's only the base that had that, the corps did not have that.
5 Q. But we are not talking about de-mining here. We are talking
6 about mining.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could your people also blow things up, or were they experts for
9 de-mining?
10 A. Well, if they are experts for de-mining, then of course they can
11 do the opposite as well.
12 Q. Who are these people that you entrusted with this task of
13 de-mining?
14 A. For the hospital, Your Honours, I would kindly ask you -- I mean,
15 for the military hospital in Zagreb, I would kindly ask you to provide
16 information that's a bit more extensive.
17 The chief of security of the military hospital in Zagreb,
18 Captain Jovanovic - I don't who gave him my telephone number at the
19 office - he called me and asked me comrade, Colonel, Colonel Nikic is in
20 the military hospital, that's the director of the military hospital. The
21 Croatian forces have surrounded the military hospital and I have carried
22 out preparations to have the military hospital mined. If I am attacked
23 do allow me to blow it up, the military hospital.
24 Your Honours, according to the Law on the JNA, an officer, if he
25 cannot reach his superior officer, then the next person up the line of
Page 3199
1 seniority takes over all responsibility. He was a captain. Somebody
2 gave him my telephone, said I was a Colonel. He asked me that. I
3 thought this was a provocation, and I said I will not allow you to blow
4 up the military hospital. I reported that to the General Staff in
5 Belgrade, and they gave orders to General Raseta in Croatia in Zagreb,
6 and he was the one who was negotiating with the Croatians, and that is
7 how things turned out with the hospital. That's what I had to say about
8 the hospital.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I leave it in your hands. I mean, you
10 raised the issue. You asked questions about it. Again, what we are
11 supposed to do with all of three's details and whether -- how far away it
12 is away from what is charged in the indictment. I leave it to you,
13 but ...
14 As we always said before, we closely will monitor the way in
15 which cross-examination is conducted. We'll continue to do that when
16 granting time.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It is a fact that this witness
18 mentioned the military hospital in Zagreb without any questions being put
19 op our part, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then you should stop him, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: One minute.
24 [Defence counsel confer]
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
Page 3200
1 Q. I would just like to ask you something in relation to this
2 hospital in Zagreb. We have to round this off. How come somebody called
3 you from Zagreb in relation to the mining of the hospital? I don't
4 understand that at all. Why is it that they called you? What do you
5 have to do with that?
6 A. Your Honours, may I give a precise answer to this question. And
7 that is as follows. I was president of the automobile association in
8 Banja Luka and there were races, automobile races. The Yugoslav
9 championship. One of the participants from Croatia took part in the
10 military hospital -- took part in the championship and worked as a driver
11 in the military hospital in Zagreb. He had my telephone number, and then
12 Captain Jovanovic got my telephone number from him and phoned, because
13 the law says if you cannot reach your immediate superior, if you can
14 reach any officer who outranks you then that person takes over
15 responsibility. So I took over responsibility and I did as I reported to
16 you a moment ago.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness is speaking at
18 a rate that is too fast for interpretation and court reporting.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I already tried to slow the witness down.
20 You really should slow down, Mr. Selak. Otherwise your testimony
21 will be lost, and that's not what you want, is it?
22 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
Page 3201
1 Q. In this letter, you refer to a person called Karabasic as a
2 particularly negative person in addition to General Talic. That's what
3 you say in this letter. Who is this Karabasic?
4 A. I think that this is Captain Kasabasic. Yes. How do I put this?
5 What was negative was that he liked to have a drink too many, liked to
6 stay away from work, and politically he also knew how to be negative. If
7 I can put it that way. And that's not only what I though to Nikola
8 Kasabasic but other colleagues thought that too. I think it's Nikola
9 Kasabasic. I'm not sure. I've forgotten. But I think it's Nikola
10 Kasabasic.
11 Q. And then we get to this part where you say -- or, rather, we've
12 already discussed this. I'm not going to ask you for the names of these
13 persons. The court has already ruled on this. You say that a command
14 was formed for opposing the Serb army in the region of Banja Luka and I
15 was commander of that. I don't want to name any names, but could you
16 tell me whether in this organisation there were any former officers of
17 the JNA?
18 A. Your Honours, this is not correct. Armed resistance, no. No
19 armed resistance was planned because the Banja Luka Corps had over
20 100.000 men. The SDS had blown up the mosque 15 or 20 days earlier on in
21 order to provoke the Muslims into reacting. We concluded in this
22 resistance staff that we would not do anything in a military way but that
23 we would advise people to flee and join the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
24 so there was no armed resistance. It's only that we tried to save
25 people. I'm sorry.
Page 3202
1 Q. I just read this out from your own letter, and it says armed
2 resistance here in your letter.
3 A. Then I made a mistake. There was no armed resistance.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- again, Mr. Mladic, if you want to consult,
5 low voice, low volume, nothing else.
6 Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
8 Q. [Interpretation] I asked you whether there were any officers of
9 the JNA, former officers of the JNA with you in that group.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And how many members did this group have?
12 A. Seven members.
13 Q. You say that you suggested to people to leave Banja Luka and to
14 join the TO BiH, right?
15 A. The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, yes.
16 Q. How did you communicate? How did you send these messages of
17 yours to the population, to people?
18 A. Well, I lived in Banja Luka, and these colleagues of mine lived
19 in Banja Luka. These were personal contacts.
20 Q. Personal contacts.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. At the time did you report to the other side about movements of
23 units? Were you involved in intelligence work for the other side?
24 A. We reported about what was happening and about the crimes that
25 were being committed in Banja Luka.
Page 3203
1 Your Honours, during the course of the war in the town of
2 Banja Luka itself, over 300 persons were killed and thrown into the Vrbas
3 river. In addition to that, Muslims and Croats were ordered to leave
4 Banja Luka and to sign over their apartments, saying that they would not
5 ask for their immovable property to be returned to them.
6 Your Honours, I have a document to that effect here with me as
7 well. This document in which they would sign over their property and say
8 that they would never ask to have it returned to them.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, at the time did you report to the other
10 side, what did you consider at the time? After the witness had retired
11 or when he was still in the army.
12 MR. LUKIC: I'll try to clarify with the witness, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
14 MR. LUKIC: Because --
15 JUDGE ORIE: First of all --
16 MR. LUKIC: I understand that it was after. After his
17 retirement. But maybe I was wrong.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, my question is what did you mean by "at the
19 time." You meant after he had --
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Which then -- when you said about reporting, about
22 people were killed, et cetera, that was after you had left the VRS?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. From the 15th of July, 1992,
24 Your Honour. That's when we established this resistance movement.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And by "the other side," you mean --
Page 3204
1 MR. LUKIC: Either Croatian army or Army of B and H.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Other to the Serb side.
3 MR. LUKIC: Other than the Serb side.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I ...
5 Please, put your next question to the witness.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Now I'd briefly like to go back in time because
8 I'm dealing with all the things that are still pending so we will try to
9 conclude all of this. We talked about the referendum on independence.
10 Could we please have in e-court 1D274.
11 This is the trial of Dusko Tadic. The 5th of June, 1996, is the
12 date. This is what I'm interested in. From the beginning of the page,
13 you mention that Colonel Cendic, Radislav, suggested two units, men and
14 soldiers, I believe, how they should vote. And then the lawyer asked
15 you:
16 "How did he tell them to vote?
17 And your answer was:
18 "To vote against the referendum, against the independence of the
19 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
20 Was that the official position of the JNA at the time, to vote
21 against the independence of any republic?
22 A. Colonel Cendic was precisely in favour of that, voting against
23 the referendum. Rather, against the cessation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
24 That was his position and that what is he carried out with his
25 colleagues.
Page 3205
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now the question was whether he expressed the formal
2 position of the JNA? Was that the official position of the JNA he
3 expressed?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. To stay in
5 Yugoslavia, yes, with a view to staying in Yugoslavia. Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You have now answered the question.
7 Please, Mr. Lukic, the next question.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. [Interpretation] How did you vote, Colonel Selak?
10 A. That is my very own private affair.
11 Q. Very well.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D275. Could we have that briefly in
13 e-court, please. This is also the trial of Dusko Tadic. 1247 is the
14 page reference. I would be interested in lines 32 and 33. And one more
15 line on the next page.
16 Q. I'm going to read it out. This is what is written here. The
17 question is -- the question of the lawyer was:
18 [In English] "To your knowledge, in the spring of 1992, did the
19 paramilitary units in the Banja Luka area come under the command of the
20 military?"
21 [Interpretation] Next page now. Your answer was:
22 "No."
23 Would you say that to this day, that paramilitary units were not
24 under the control of the JNA?
25 A. They were not, Your Honours, under the control of the JNA, but
Page 3206
1 JNA units armed them and allowed them to train in the training grounds at
2 Manjaca near Banja Luka. The Red Berets and other units. Their command
3 was at the Bosna Hotel in Banja Luka.
4 Q. Now that you've brought this up, can you tell us who it was that
5 made up this command; do you know?
6 A. No, I do not know.
7 Q. We have established, and you told us, that you did not supply
8 Keraterm with food or anything else. Is it also correct that you did not
9 supply Omarska either? Either with food or anything else.
10 A. I did not, Your Honours.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. Unfortunately, I did not.
13 Q. We need to wrap up.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just give me half a minute to
15 consult, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please take your time.
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Colonel Selak, just one more question: Could you explain whose
21 orders did you obey?
22 A. When?
23 Q. In 1991, 1992. Beginning with September 1991 until you were
24 retired on 7 July 1992.
25 A. Orders from the command of the 1st Military District in Belgrade
Page 3207
1 and in Sarajevo, because they took turns. They took turns. The
2 headquarters were -- was first in the 1st Military District, then in the
3 2nd Military District in Sarajevo. So I obeyed the orders of the
4 assistant commander for logistics of the military district.
5 Q. Do you remember the names of these persons in the 1st and 2nd
6 Military Districts?
7 A. I can't remember. People changed. There was several colonels
8 from Croatia who came and then they were killed, unfortunately. Then
9 they were replaced. I can't remember. Sorry.
10 Q. Thank you?
11 A. Crncevic was in Belgrade but I don't know who was in Sarajevo.
12 Q. Jerko Crncevic?
13 A. Yes, Crncevic was in Belgrade. He is in my notebook.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic. Now this is really
15 the last warning. And it's of no use to make gestures that you
16 apologise. You should refrain from it.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Jerko Crncevic was a Croat by ethnicity, this man who worked in
19 Belgrade?
20 A. I suppose, judging by his name. But I don't know really because
21 I did not communicate much with him, talked to him a couple of times on
22 the phone and I wasn't interested in his ethnicity.
23 Q. Colonel, thank you. I have no further questions.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
25 Mr. Groome, is there any need to re-examine the witness.
Page 3208
1 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And how much time would you approximately use?
3 MR. GROOME: I think I might be able to finish today,
4 Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One second, please.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Groome.
8 Re-examination by Mr. Groome:
9 Q. Mr. Selak, over the course of the last three days you've been
10 asked about many, many different topics. I want to explore just one
11 topic with you that was raised by Mr. Lukic on Tuesday. It raised at
12 transcript page 3030. It has to do with the illness of your wife. And
13 first let me remind you of your answer in response to a question posed by
14 Mr. Lukic.
15 "Q. Did you leave Banja Luka in spite of this?
16 "A. Yes. In 1995, when my wife fell ill, I asked General Mladic
17 to allow me to leave and to go to Belgrade to the Military Medical
18 Academy in an ambulance.
19 "Q. Was this made possible for you?
20 "A. I phoned General Djukic. He put me through to
21 General Mladic, and he said that he ordered Colonel Marjanovic to take me
22 to Belgrade."
23 Do you recall those questions and answers.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, I apologise for asking you to return what is undoubtedly a
Page 3209
1 difficult and sad memory, but I do want to ensure that the record
2 correctly records your evidence on this event. And I would like to do
3 this by asking you a few very specific questions, each requiring a short
4 answer.
5 First, can you please tell us, if you know, what was the position
6 of General Djukic at that point in time when you made the request?
7 A. General Djukic said he could not issue any orders himself without
8 General Mladic.
9 Q. Let me just -- if I could direct you to the very specific
10 question I'm asking you: What was his title or what was his position, if
11 you know, at the time that you made the request?
12 A. He was assistant chief of the Main Staff for logistics in the
13 VRS. He was my direct superior in the Army of Republika Srpska. My
14 colleague from the academy.
15 Q. Now, you've just said General Djukic said he could not issue any
16 orders himself without General Mladic. When did he say that to you?
17 A. The moment when I called him up. I can't remember the date now.
18 It was in the month of May, I think, 1992. Because my wife was ill at
19 the time, I was upset ...
20 Q. Mr. Selak, on Tuesday, the record recorded you as saying your
21 wife fell ill in 1995, and now I see you've been recorded as saying 1992.
22 Which year did your wife become ill and did you make this request?
23 A. Please, then it must be a mistake. My wife fell ill in May 1994.
24 She had a surgery in Banja Luka, a tumour was found on the colon, and she
25 was taking cytostatics and she was sent in 1995 to the military medical
Page 3210
1 academy because the doctors were unable to give any guarantees in that
2 time.
3 Q. Now, at the time that you made this request to General Djukic, do
4 you know where he was physically located. Where was his office?
5 A. Your Honours, General Djukic was at the Main Staff of the Army of
6 Republika Srpska, at Pale, near Sarajevo, and his telephone number had
7 the city code 011, which is the code for Belgrade, and he had that phone
8 in -- in Pale. That's the number I used to call him.
9 Q. You testified that Djukic put you through to Mladic. Do you know
10 where General Mladic was physically located at the time that you spoke
11 with him?
12 A. At Pale, in the same office. That's where they met. He just
13 passed on the receiver.
14 Q. Are you able to tell us the command structure between
15 General Mladic and General Djukic at that time? In other words, was
16 Djukic a direct subordinate of Mladic, or were there other levels of
17 command between them?
18 A. He was directly subordinated to General Mladic because
19 General Mladic was commander of the Main Staff of the Army of
20 Republika Srpska, whereas Djukic was assistant commander for logistics in
21 the VRS.
22 Q. Can you tell us precisely what it was you were asking? Were you
23 asking for permission to transit areas under the control of the VRS, were
24 you asking for ground or air transport to Belgrade, or were you asking
25 for something else? What specifically were you requesting?
Page 3211
1 A. I specifically requested that he order Colonel Marjanovic, chief
2 of the medical service of the Banja Luka Corps, to take an ambulance that
3 was constantly shuttling to and fro from Belgrade to take my wife to
4 Belgrade. He probably wasn't able to do that without the orders of
5 General Mladic, and he asked me to get orders from General Mladic.
6 Q. Now, you described this act of General Mladic as an order. You
7 said:
8 "He ordered Colonel Marjanovic to take me to Belgrade."
9 My question to you is the following: When you used the word
10 "order," did you intend it to mean order in the sense of a military order
11 of a superior to a subordinate?
12 A. Yes, I mean military order.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Selak, I want to be careful how I phrase my next
14 question, and I want to be sure that you didn't misperceive it to the
15 difficult time that you were facing, both you and your wife. What I want
16 to ask you is the following. When you called Djukic to ask for
17 assistance in getting your wife to Belgrade, did you expect that the
18 decision to assist you would require an order from the commander of the
19 Main Staff himself?
20 A. Yes, I was sure because it was all about me not leaving
21 Banja Luka because of my wife, and General Mladic had to decide.
22 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
24 Any further questions? I think Mr. Mladic would like to consult
25 with you for a second.
Page 3212
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would you allow me
3 just a few minutes to explain something during this consultation?
4 JUDGE ORIE: No. First of all, during the consultation, we
5 should not proceed. That's one.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, your mike.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could ... I -- I -- Mr. Mladic, I see you're trying
10 to do your best to lower the volume of your voice, but you should not
11 only try but even succeed in avoiding that someone else hears it.
12 Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Further cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Colonel, at that time there was an embargo against
17 Republika Srpska from the Republic of Serbia?
18 A. Yes. There was talk about an embargo, but there was
19 communication between subordinates and superiors. The VRS could only
20 exist with the help of the Republic of Serbia and that's the way it was.
21 Q. You said Republika Srpska, not the Army of Republika Srpska.
22 A. Well, okay.
23 Q. I just want the transcript to be true. Were you aware of the
24 procedure for any transport or the wounded or patients to move to
25 Belgrade? Whose permission was required?
Page 3213
1 A. The wounded and patients who could not be properly treated in
2 Banja Luka were sent in ambulances for treatment to Belgrade and that
3 worked on a regular basis. And Colonel --
4 THE INTERPRETER: We did not hear the name.
5 A. -- even told me plaintively that did he not have enough room for
6 my wife because there was so many wounded.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us the name of that colonel you just
8 referred to.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Colonel Marjanovic. I can't recall
10 his first name. A doctor of medicine.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. I asked you if you were familiar with the procedure which papers
13 needed to be submitted so that these wounded and ill people could be
14 transported to Serbia.
15 A. All medical care for members of the army took place through the
16 medical corps in Banja Luka, if we're talking about members of the army.
17 If they could not get treatment in Banja Luka, they were sent to
18 Belgrade, to the Military Medical Academy, or to some other hospital.
19 Q. Your wife was not a member of the army.
20 A. But she was my wife. She was a family member. She was entitled
21 to treatment at the Military Medical Academy.
22 Q. And she was, indeed, sent there?
23 A. Yes. Colonel Marjanovic did write the papers --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you should abide by the instructions as
25 well. Apart from how important this matter is, or whether it's marginal,
Page 3214
1 before we start asking about at what speed exactly the ambulance drove to
2 Belgrade, please try to focus on important matters.
3 MR. LUKIC: I'm finishing, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please to do so.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You say you knew that Mladic had to be -- had to decide. But
7 you're not calling Mladic. You're calling another person. Why do you
8 call another person if it's up to Mladic?
9 A. General Djukic, as assistant commander for logistics, was
10 superior to Colonel Marjanovic? I called up General Djukic, and he,
11 then, connected me with Mladic. I don't know what passed between them.
12 Q. And General Mladic allowed it.
13 A. No. He said, I'll give orders to Colonel Marjanovic. I called
14 him two days running. The first -- once and then two days later, and
15 still the order was not obeyed.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well, that, finally, after one
17 phone call or after two phone calls, that Mr. Mladic agreed that your
18 wife could be transported to Belgrade and gave the relevant orders for
19 that?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what General Mladic told me.
21 Because I spoke to him directly. Whether he had, indeed, given orders or
22 not, I don't know.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. What did Marjanovic tell you? What did Marjanovic tell you? Did
Page 3215
1 he get a call from the general? Did the general give his permission?
2 Did you discuss it with him?
3 A. I went with him to the infirmary, and he told me then, There's no
4 room in the transport because there are too many wounded. And, in the
5 end, I had to pay 2800 Deutschemark from my own pocket so that my wife
6 could be transported.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: That was your last question, Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I didn't say that. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Mr. Selak, this concludes your testimony in this court. I'd like
12 to thank you very much for coming to The Hague, and I wish you -- not
13 only for coming but also for answering the questions that were put to
14 you, and I wish you a safe return home again and good health.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I had only asked you
16 for a minute or two.
17 Your Honours, in 2002 this APB was published in Republika Srpska.
18 I'm wanted as a war criminal for testifying in The Hague.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selak, you were examined here as a witness.
21 That means that questions were put to you. You've answered those
22 questions, and even sometimes went beyond what you were asked. If
23 there's anything important and relevant which you consider should be
24 known to this Court, then I invite you to bring that to the attention of
25 the Office of the Prosecution so that they can further look into the
Page 3216
1 matter, consider the relevance of it, and try to find ways to bring it
2 before this Chamber.
3 MR. GROOME: We will do that, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you can bring it to the attention of
5 Mr. Groome.
6 Again, I wish you a safe and healthy return home again. You may
7 follow the usher.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE ORIE: No. No comment, Mr. Mladic. And we do not start
11 counting tomorrow at one. We start at five or six, where we are now, as
12 far as consequences are concerned.
13 For tomorrow, the next witness is available and doesn't require
14 any protective measures?
15 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That is Mr. Crncalo which is scheduled for 30
17 minutes from what I understand?
18 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that we will be able to conclude the
20 testimony of the next witness tomorrow?
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, of course, Your Honour. My colleague Ivetic
22 will do -- cross-examine that.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Groome.
25 MR. GROOME: Just in terms of scheduling, I would like to update
Page 3217
1 the Chamber on the 92 bis as soon as possible because I will be asking
2 for some further guidance so that we can keep our work progressing, so
3 could I ask, if possible, if we needed stay an extra five or ten minutes
4 to do that. My submission I'm pretty sure can be done in less than half
5 an hour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Tomorrow?
7 MR. GROOME: If we can do it at some point tomorrow, yes,
8 Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, to the extent possible, would you try to
10 finish tomorrow half an hour before the end of the session. And I see
11 Mr. Ivetic is pretty confident that he will be able to do so.
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. LUKIC: If he says so.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. He nods even so.
16 Mr. Groome, that would meet your --
17 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. And then thank you
18 for my colleagues.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then we adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow,
20 Friday, the 28th of September, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same
21 courtroom, I.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day of
24 September, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.
25