130118ED

Page 6974

1 today as we expected in view of your observations yesterday, Mr. Lukic,

2 and that the Chamber received a signed waiver form signed by Mr. Mladic,

3 and it is about the 18th of January.

4 Please proceed.

5 WITNESS: MICHAEL ROSE [Resumed]

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

7 Q. [Interpretation] Once again, General, good morning.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. I hope that we will finish soon today, and I would kindly ask you

10 to just bear for a little bit longer with me.

11 You have your statement in front of you; is that correct?

12 A. I do have.

13 Q. Would you be kind and to look at paragraph 145 of your statement,

14 please.

15 A. I have it.

16 Q. In paragraph 145, you say that:

17 "On the 27th of August, 1994, I accompanied General Wesley Clark,

18 head of operations in the Pentagon to see General Mladic in Banja Luka."

19 And you say, "General Mladic" insisted on a cease-fire, "pressed

20 for a cease-fire to be followed by a political solution. General Clark

21 advocated that a gesture should be made by the BSA such as withdrawal

22 from an occupied area. I suggested further demilitarisation."

23 On this occasion, also no concessions were sought from the Muslim

24 side. Concessions were sought only from the Serbian side; is that

25 correct, General?

Page 6975

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. In this paragraph, you discuss a document. I would like to look

3 at the document in e-court. That's 8154, please. This is a report from

4 the meeting of the 27th of August, and you recognise the format of the

5 document, don't you? And at the bottom here in the report from this

6 meeting, could you please look at item 5 at the bottom of the page, and

7 there we can see that Mladic stated:

8 "We have only 43.24 per cent of the territory," whereas the

9 Muslims have 56.73 per cent with 37 towns.

10 I would ask you this: Is it correct that each time the Serbs

11 would receive less than 49 per cent of the territory according to the

12 plans that you saw?

13 A. I was not party to the Contact Group. They kept themselves

14 separate and distinct from any discussions we had with either of the

15 warring parties. So I don't know what they had on offer at that time,

16 and of course it was changing throughout the period that I was in Bosnia

17 anyway. Different offers were being made.

18 Q. Thank you. Do you know what the basis was to award territory to

19 the Muslims? Was it by the number of the population, landownership or

20 some other criteria, or do you know not know what the criteria were to

21 determine these percentages?

22 A. As I say, I was not party to the Contact Group discussion, so I

23 have no knowledge.

24 Q. Thank you. I just ask for your indulgence for a moment.

25 We're now going to look at document 8155. We can see that this

Page 6976

1 is a fax or a telegram being sent by Mr. de Lapresle to Mr. Annan, and in

2 paragraph 149 of your statement you say:

3 "On the 18th of September, 1994, I wrote both to General Mladic

4 and General Delic, calling on them to immediately hold military

5 actions ..." You warned them that if the fighting does not stop, I would

6 be obliged to take all appropriate measures against their forces,

7 including the use of air-strikes.

8 What was the reaction to this by General Delic? Do you recall

9 that?

10 A. I think my discussion was with President Izetbegovic, and it was

11 extremely negative. He was horrified to hear that I was threatening to

12 use air-strikes against the Bosnian government forces, and I suspect he

13 then made contact with the people on the NATO side to make sure that

14 would not happen, but that's a supposition on my part.

15 Q. Thank you. The position of the UNPROFOR was that the Serbs

16 should not use the weaponry that they had handed in to the collection

17 points controlled by UNPROFOR even in case of a Muslim offensive; is that

18 correct?

19 A. That was correct.

20 Q. Can we now look at 1D557 in e-court, please. This document

21 consists of several sections. First is a report of the 16th of August

22 from Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan at the UN. I would like to look at page 4

23 of the document, the Protocol of Understanding. This protocol was

24 drafted between Mr. Akashi and Mr. Karadzic. From paragraph 1, marked 1,

25 first I think in my view we have two situations: One is that the

Page 6977

1 UNPROFOR should withdraw. This is what the paragraph begins with. The

2 second begins in line six of this paragraph, stating that in case the

3 Muslims attack -- actually, in line 6 it states:

4 [In English] "... in event of a Muslim attack on the Serbs which

5 UNPROFOR is not able either prevent or stop immediately, the BSA reserves

6 the right to implement adequate measures of self-defence."

7 [Interpretation] General, in your view does that mean that the

8 Serbs did have the right to take the weapons that they had handed in to

9 the collection points or not?

10 A. I don't believe it gave them the right to go and get those

11 weapons back, and I was certainly not party to this particular agreement

12 which when I saw it subsequently was somewhat of a surprise to me. We

13 maintained the position that they had no right to come and collect the

14 weapons from those weapon collecting points, which is why we on occasions

15 called down air-strikes when they did so do.

16 Q. And can we conclude that at the time when you called in

17 air-strikes on Serb positions you had not seen this protocol?

18 A. No, I had not.

19 Q. In paragraph 4 of the protocol - can we look at it on the

20 monitor, please - it states:

21 [In English] "Neither the Serb nor the Muslim side is permitted

22 to engage in military activities of any description, and this includes

23 consolidation of trenches or their forward movement and similar

24 activities."

25 [Interpretation] General, is it correct that even after this date

Page 6978

1 the Muslim forces did carry out offensives on Serb positions?

2 A. They undoubtedly did so, particularly after the assault which

3 they launched on the 18th of September.

4 Q. Thank you. Just one moment, please. Need to look at the

5 transcript of the 8th of October. I can't find it at the moment.

6 Actually, I can't find the 65 ter number at the moment, or, actually, our

7 1D number. It's 1D551. We need to look at page 7581, please.

8 Seventy-five. Line 13 on, up to line 19.

9 You explained here, General, that the Muslims -- or that, rather,

10 that NATO by that time had already changed its policies and that they

11 were not prepared to use any force at all against the Bosnian government

12 forces, or forces of the Bosnian government as it states here, even

13 though the Muslim forces at that time were in direct violation of a NATO

14 ultimatum. You did mention this before. What was this ultimatum from

15 NATO? Could you please explain that a little bit more?

16 A. The ultimatum that had been given to both sides by NATO in 1993

17 was that there should be a zone on Mount Igman from which all military

18 weapons and units would be excluded. It was known as the TEZ, total

19 exclusion zone. And on this basis the Serbs who controlled most of the

20 territory on Mount Igman withdrew their forces, relied on the UN and NATO

21 to maintain the integrity of that total exclusion zone. As we've

22 discussed, NATO's position subsequently changed, and when the Bosnian

23 government forces attacked into that zone and slaughtered a number of

24 nurses in a medical station, Serb nurses, NATO took no action in spite of

25 my request.

Page 6979

1 Q. Thank you. Can we go forward ten pages to transcript page 7591,

2 please. We will be looking at lines 9 to 12.

3 The Judge asked you -- actually, the question starts in line 10:

4 [In English] "Now, would you say, General, that NATO's refusal to

5 take action would have emboldened the Bosnian government to continue in

6 that way?"

7 The answer was:

8 "It certainly would have done so and indeed it did so."

9 [Interpretation] The Bosnian forces, knowing that they would not

10 be bombed, did not pay much heed to your warning; is that correct? And

11 they continued as if they had not been warned about their offences

12 against the Serb forces.

13 A. That is so.

14 Q. Thank you. Can we look at paragraph 167 of your statement now,

15 please. In that paragraph you say that General Delic said that he should

16 remove the units from the demilitarised zone. This is also a consequence

17 of the awareness of the Muslim forces that no action would be taken

18 against them; is that correct?

19 A. That is correct, but we in fact ceased talking to General Delic

20 on this subject, and we took the issue up with President Izetbegovic, and

21 it was he who finally agreed to withdraw the Bosnian government forces

22 back outside to a line outside the total exclusion zone. And he issued

23 the orders to General Delic, and that finally happened.

24 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 175 of your statement just briefly, please.

25 Somewhere here at the end of the first half of the paragraph, you say

Page 6980

1 that:

2 "The first topic was the conflict in Bihac. Dr. Karadzic refused

3 to recognise the safety zone the way it was recognised, as defined, and

4 was insistent that his forces would continue to advance to destroy the

5 Bosnian government Army's 5th Corps.

6 Was the 5th Corps of the B and H Army a legitimate military

7 target?

8 A. I guess if there had been combat in the area and the 5th Corps

9 were engaging the Serb side, they would have considered that to be a

10 legitimate target in response. Unfortunately, the 5th Corps withdrew

11 into the town, and that made it difficult for the Serb side to engage the

12 5th Corps elements without undue civilian casualties, and that is why the

13 United Nations tried to prevent by calling in air-strikes civilian

14 casualties in Bihac caused by the Serb side.

15 Q. So UNPROFOR believed that at the moment when the Muslim forces

16 entered the safe zone after participating in combat action, they stop

17 being a legitimate military target. Did I understand that correctly?

18 A. Well, whether they were or not in the view of the Serbs made no

19 difference to the United Nations approach. They were merely determined

20 to halt fire being laid down in the civilian areas. That was our

21 interest.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the previous answer started with, "I

23 guess that if there had been." The ifs and ands are all there. That's

24 one.

25 Second, of course the Chamber would like to know 20 -- what was

Page 6981

1 it? 24th of November, 1994, what rules, what

2 Security Council Resolutions, what agreements were there, what actually

3 happened for a fact, what then happened in response to that? I mean,

4 that is all to give a proper judgement on what is legitimate. Is there a

5 legitimate target? What does that mean? Can you engage every legitimate

6 target with every means? That's all the questions that arise, which, of

7 course, are not dealt with in such a way that it assists the Chamber to

8 make its findings, at least with this witness. If it comes at a later

9 stage, then of course we'll further hear from you, but it is if this, if

10 that.

11 THE WITNESS: Sir, I might be able to help with setting a certain

12 baseline for subsequent discussions.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if Mr. Lukic would like you to do that,

14 he's -- you're his witness at the moment. He's cross-examining you. I'm

15 just commenting. If Mr. Lukic would invite you to do so, then we'll

16 hear.

17 MR. LUKIC:

18 Q. General, please.

19 A. The United Nations at that time, as you know, had defined six

20 safe areas in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and with the agreement of all the

21 warring parties there would be no combat in or around those safe areas.

22 Unfortunately, this was not adhered to, and when fighting broke out in

23 these safe areas, particularly around Gorazde as we've heard, and Bihac,

24 the United Nations' responsibility at that point was to deter further

25 attacks against those safe areas. The exact boundaries of those safe

Page 6982

1 areas were never particularly clearly laid down on a map, and a great

2 deal of debate took place during my time, and particularly when the

3 attacks occurred into Bihac, as to exactly where the boundary lay. In

4 the end, it was decided that it was where the concentration of civilian

5 populations were, and that would define the limits of the safe area, and

6 that is when we -- when fire was laid down on these civilian occupied

7 areas, that is when we called in NATO air-strikes. That was the basis on

8 which our judgements were made.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I ask you one short question but perhaps

10 a difficult one. Was there any opinion formed within UNPROFOR and the UN

11 about what would be the situation if the additional agreements between

12 the parties would be violated? Would that mean that the underlying UN

13 Security Council Resolutions would lose their validity or would be null

14 and void, or would it just be that you step back and say the mutual

15 agreement is violated. It's not binding upon the parties anymore. So

16 the only remaining legal instrument which is now which is now ruling,

17 which is now governing the situation is the UN Security Council, is it,

18 or was it --

19 THE WITNESS: That was the case. That was the latter situation

20 that you described was the line that we finally were obliged to take.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so if you violate your mutual agreements, fine,

22 then what remains is the UN Security Council Resolution.

23 THE WITNESS: That is correct, sir.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6983

1 Q. Thank you for the explanation, General. You used a term, "at the

2 end." When was it that you actually determined that an inhabited or

3 populated area would be what, in fact, you would be protecting? When was

4 that in the end, if you recall?

5 A. Well, we never tried to protect because we didn't have the means

6 for doing so. We were deterring attacks against, which is a different

7 order of activity. But the moment at which we had decided this was to be

8 the distinguishing feature of a safe area was after the attacks had been

9 launched into Bihac, the 5th Corps Bosnian government forces had

10 withdrawn into that area and there was fire beginning to be laid down in

11 Bihac. At that point we decided that that was the definition we would

12 use. So it was late November.

13 Q. Thank you. Did it happen that NATO planes would bomb without the

14 previous written consent by the Security Council? How did that mechanism

15 function? You said that you would be seeking support of NATO planes in

16 order to deter attacks. How would you go about getting permission for

17 that?

18 A. NATO reserved the right to fire without the authority of the

19 United Nations, but only in self-defence, and by the November time, the

20 Serb side had introduced high-technology, high-altitude complex

21 ground-air defence systems, and NATO on occasions fired at these systems

22 when they had been illuminated by hostile radar without authority of the

23 United Nations. Otherwise, the only strikes that were made in

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina were done [Realtime transcript read in error "don't"]

25 with the authority of the United Nations.

Page 6984

1 On the occasion of Bihac, NATO was unable to identify the targets

2 that we wished them to engage, and therefore no air-strikes actually took

3 place.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, can you help me with one clarification. You

6 see on the transcript in the -- on page 11, lines 17 and 18 the sentence:

7 "Otherwise, the only strikes that were made in

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina were don't authority of the United Nations."

9 I think there's -- it's not clear what is recorded here. Perhaps

10 you can clarify that.

11 THE WITNESS: That should read "the only strikes that were made

12 in Bosnia-Herzegovina were made with the authority of the

13 United Nations."

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that clarification.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. General, can you please look at paragraph 185 of your statement

17 now, please. Here you talk about Dr. Karadzic, and then in the middle of

18 the paragraph you say he demanded that the Croatian military leave their

19 territory. What did the UNPROFOR do in respect of that request, because

20 it's known, and you told us that some 5.000 soldiers from Croatia entered

21 the territory controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska?

22 A. I cannot recall exactly what this discussion was about and where

23 these Croatian military were located, but I suspect it was probably in

24 the area around Bihac, to the north of Bihac, or maybe to the west. But

25 I don't recall this exact, precise discussion, the details of it.

Page 6985

1 Q. I think that it was in the Livno Duvno area, in fact. Do you

2 recall -- you said here that you remember that conversation. Do you

3 recall if anything was done in respect of this request? If not, we will

4 just move on.

5 A. I think you should move on, sir, because all dealings with the

6 Croatian government were done by Zagreb and Mr. Akashi, not by me.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you. From what I understood, UNPROFOR had two main

8 tasks, the delivery of humanitarian aid and establishing peace; is that

9 correct?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. Initially, the Muslims welcomed the arrival of UNPROFOR and were

12 grateful for the aid provided; is that correct?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. However, the Muslims were opposed to the second task of the

15 UNPROFOR, that is to establish peace; is that correct?

16 A. Initially, of course, they were welcoming the UNPROFOR presence

17 on -- for that reason as well, because they were in danger of being

18 overrun by their opponents on the Serb side, but as they -- the situation

19 stabilised and as they were being equipped and trained by NATO and the

20 American side, they saw the peacekeeping effort as being an obstacle to

21 them going back to military action in order to regain their lost

22 territories by force of arms. So we -- the United Nations did indeed

23 become an obstacle to their ambitions, their strategic ambitions.

24 Q. Thank you, General.

25 A. And I could add that by then the success of the United Nations

Page 6986

1 aid delivery programme was such that the number of people dependent on

2 humanitarian aid had greatly reduced and the Bosnian government felt that

3 they were able to look after their own people without outside help.

4 Q. Thank you. Can we now briefly dwell on paragraph 199 of your

5 statement. We're slowly coming to the end.

6 You talked about your belief about the purpose of the siege of

7 Sarajevo. Was there a large number of enemy soldiers being held,

8 encircled in Sarajevo? Is it true that the Serbs were holding encircled

9 the whole 1st Corps of the Bosnian Army? Would that be something that

10 was justified?

11 A. Well, certainly the Serb side had driven the Bosnian government

12 forces into Sarajevo. How effective they were, I have no idea, but they

13 certainly manned a defensive line which ran some 70 kilometres around

14 Sarajevo.

15 Q. And is it also correct that the Serbs who were positioned around

16 Sarajevo in many places were themselves surrounded by Muslim forces, that

17 they in turn were also encircled?

18 A. I can't think of any particular location where that was the case.

19 Q. If one were to look at the general area of Sarajevo. Perhaps

20 you're not familiar with that, and I won't press that any further.

21 A. We certainly didn't have a visibility of all the deployments of

22 the warring parties throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, but I guess to the

23 west and north of Sarajevo that could have been the case.

24 Q. Thank you. Please bear with me.

25 Thank you, General. Those were the questions I had for you, and

Page 6987

1 thank you for answering them.

2 A. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

4 Ms. Bibles, could you give us an indication whether there is any

5 need to further examine the witness and how much time that would take.

6 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, we do have about -- I'd estimate maybe

7 30 minutes worth of questions for this witness.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please start. We'll take a break in

9 approximately 10 minutes from now. No. Well -- Mr. Lukic, would it be

10 of any use to have the normal length of sessions which is 75 minutes,

11 which would give a better chance for Mr. Mladic to rejoin us after the

12 break, because we would then resume later, and if he would have arrived

13 by that time, he could immediately come in.

14 MR. LUKIC: We have no objection to that proposal, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that we do not take the break after

16 one hour as we do in the presence of Mr. Mladic, but that we continue

17 until quarter to 11.00.

18 You may proceed, Ms. Bibles.

19 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 Re-examination by Ms. Bibles:

21 Q. Good morning, General.

22 A. Good morning.

23 Q. General Rose, during cross-examination you were asked a series of

24 questions about the Serb military operations in Gorazde in April of 1994.

25 I'd like to return to this line of questioning, and in doing so, I'd like

Page 6988

1 to start by showing you United Nations Security Council Resolution 824

2 referred to in cross-examination.

3 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, could we please bring P22 to our

4 screens.

5 Q. General Rose, first I'll ask is this Security Resolution 824 as

6 you recall it?

7 A. Absolutely.

8 MS. BIBLES: And, Your Honours, we'd next like to go to page 2 of

9 this exhibit, and specifically paragraph 4.

10 Q. General, specifically, I draw your attention to paragraph 4,

11 particularly subsection (a), which declares the withdrawal of all

12 Bosnian Serb military or -- military units.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You've had an opportunity to review that?

15 A. I have.

16 Q. And you'd agree that this Resolution was dated on the

17 6th of May, 1993?

18 A. It was.

19 MS. BIBLES: I'd now like, Your Honours, to bring up P24, which

20 would be UN Security Council Resolution 836 from the 4th of June, 1993,

21 mentioned in cross-examination.

22 Q. Does the document on the screen appear to you to be

23 Resolution 836?

24 A. It does indeed, yes.

25 Q. And if we could now go to page 3 and focus on paragraph 5. You

Page 6989

1 have an opportunity to review this paragraph with respect to the UNPROFOR

2 mandate with respect to the safe areas.

3 A. Yes. I'm well aware of those [indiscernible].

4 Q. All right. And particularly regarding the task to promote the

5 withdrawal of military or paramilitary units other than those of the

6 government of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

7 General, in respect to Gorazde during your time in command, was

8 UNPROFOR's mandate carried out in accordance with these

9 Security Council Resolutions?

10 A. To the best of their ability it was.

11 Q. I'd now like to turn to your -- turn your attention to

12 paragraph 67 of your statement, and there you state:

13 "At a meeting on 6 April 1994, in Pale, Radovan Karadzic said

14 the Bosnian Serbs had no intention of capturing Gorazde town and merely

15 wanted to retake villages on the right bank of the River Drina."

16 Yesterday, Defence counsel showed you an order from

17 General Milovanovic dated the next day, 7 April 1994, and sent to the

18 commands of various corps within the Bosnian Serb Army. I'd like to

19 bring up that order again, 65 ter 0923 -- excuse me, 09236. Specifically

20 the second page and paragraph 2.

21 It's starting where we see an order to the Bosnian Serb forces to

22 enter Gorazde, and I believe the paragraph starts with "If a tactical

23 opportunity" arises.

24 General Rose, what do you assess the true objectives of the

25 Bosnian Serb Gorazde offensive to be?

Page 6990

1 A. At that time, we tended to believe Dr. Karadzic's assertion that

2 they were merely recovering their lost villages on the right bank of the

3 Drina, but not having this intelligence in front of us at the time, had

4 we done so, then of course we would have understood that their intention

5 was to treat Gorazde in the way they subsequently treated Srebrenica.

6 Q. General --

7 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, the Prosecution moves to admit 09236.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P733, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: P733 is admitted into evidence.

11 Mr. Lukic, it triggers the following observation: The Chamber

12 noted that you have not tendered any of the documents you used in

13 evidence. Is that what you intended, or would you still want some of it

14 to be in evidence?

15 MR. LUKIC: I'm sure that the documents will be introduced in the

16 future as well, so we can introduce them in the future. I will -- I'm

17 satisfied with the answers we got from the general.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then we leave it to that.

19 Please proceed.

20 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.

21 Q. General, with respect to Mladic's involvement in the Gorazde

22 offensive, yesterday you were shown a document, I believe it was

23 yesterday, now in evidence as P731 - and I would ask that we bring that

24 to our screens - which noted that General Mladic visited the zone of

25 combat on 10 April 1994, and relayed a message to keep pushing

Page 6991

1 energetically onward.

2 General Rose, to place this statement in context, are you -- or

3 could you describe as of the 10th of April of 1994, the state of the

4 Bosnian government military forces in and around Gorazde?

5 A. I think at that time they had started to withdraw back into the

6 town, leaving the town very much undefended, and it was about that time

7 also that we called on air-strikes on artillery positions and armoured

8 units that were firing on Gorazde.

9 Q. And, General, turning to the bottom of page 18 of your statement

10 and paragraph 77, would you agree now with the assessment that the

11 Bosnian Army had collapsed and was in total retreat, that the soldiers

12 appeared to have given up all armed resistance?

13 A. They certainly gave the impression of that. Whether this was

14 done through a matter of tactics on their part or whether they had been

15 forced into retreat by the Bosnian Serb side, we never really

16 established.

17 Q. During this time period, April of 1994, your statement,

18 throughout this portion of your statement, you indicate you communicated

19 both directly with Mladic and through others regarding the Bosnian Serb

20 actions, and specifically in paragraph 78, you described that you sent a

21 message warning of NATO strikes, that you received a response from him in

22 paragraph 79. In paragraph 83, you detail specific warnings from Mladic

23 about UN personnel. And in paragraph 85, you describe communications to

24 Mladic warning him with respect to tanks.

25 A. Yes. All that figures with the events of the time.

Page 6992

1 Q. Did you have any concerns given this that the Bosnian Serb Army

2 was confused over what you were asking them to do to avoid NATO

3 air-strikes?

4 A. No. We were quite specific in our demands, and they understood

5 them fully.

6 Q. In relationship to Gorazde, I would ask that we bring up

7 65 ter 09108.

8 As this document is brought to our screens, I'd ask that you take

9 a moment to review.

10 A. Yes, I've read that.

11 Q. And could you tell us the date of this order?

12 A. 13th of April.

13 Q. And, General, does this appear to be an order from -- ultimately

14 from Karadzic?

15 A. It seems to be from Karadzic.

16 Q. And as we review this document, it appears that Karadzic met with

17 a Russian official who suggested that international public -- the

18 international public was coming around. And as we go through that, based

19 on that perspective, that the Bosnian Serb forces had about three days to

20 make maximum use of their military efforts.

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Did your observations of the subsequent activities in this

23 time-frame reflect that this order was carried out?

24 A. They had slowed down by then, but I think that was a result of

25 NATO action. Looking at that letter, I suspect this is an interpretation

Page 6993

1 of a statement made by President -- or Mr. Karadzic, and it was actually

2 issued by the army headquarters based -- but based on a statement from

3 Karadzic.

4 MS. BIBLES: And, Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 09108.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P734, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: P734 is admitted into evidence.

8 Could -- could I ask one clarification on one of your previous

9 answers, Mr. Rose. You said Gorazde, when they had withdrawn within the

10 town, was more or less undefended. Now, a town or a city which is

11 undefended has also a very specific legal meaning. I'm not bothering you

12 with the interpretation of that, but part of it may be that, for example,

13 it was declared that the opposite party could enter that town and would

14 be free to do so. I mean, is this legal meaning that you had in mind or

15 just factual that there was not much military activity in -- in engaging

16 the party which was outside of the town?

17 THE WITNESS: The latter would be the case.

18 JUDGE ORIE: The latter. Yes, thank you.

19 Please proceed.

20 MS. BIBLES:

21 Q. General, on cross-examination you were shown a document referred

22 to in paragraph 34 of your statement. Somewhat as a housekeeping matter

23 and in response to the Trial Chamber's request, we have located a

24 document -- the document here, which appears to miss the fax cover sheet,

25 but contains perhaps the first page.

Page 6994

1 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, could we bring 10716 to the screens.

2 Q. General, if you have -- if you could take a few moments and

3 review this first page.

4 A. I see that document.

5 Q. And if we could now turn to the second page, please. Is this --

6 A. Yes. I understand that document.

7 Q. And this was the same document --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- referred to in paragraph 34?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. Do you have a perspective as to whether the first page in this

12 document accurately depicts the events of that meeting?

13 A. It does indeed.

14 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 10716 rather

15 than 08137.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No objections? Then -- yes, now, just for my

17 recollection, was -- the previous one was not tendered yet, or was

18 tendered but was a number assigned? Number P734 -- is that --

19 MS. BIBLES: My notes indicate that because of the concern about

20 the first page that the other document was not MFI'd.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Registrar, now having a full copy of

22 the document and there's no need to have the cover page. I take it the

23 content of that which is very short was read into the record anyhow, and

24 that this is then the document attached to that cover page.

25 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 6995

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the number would be.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 10716 shall be assigned

3 Exhibit P735. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: P735 is admitted into evidence.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Just for clarification of report, it's 10716.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's hereby on the record.

7 Please proceed.

8 MS. BIBLES:

9 Q. Now, General, I'd like to turn your attention back to

10 February of 1994. Tuesday, starting at transcript page 6880, you were

11 asked a series of questions about the two commissions established to

12 investigate the origin of the mortar bomb that landed in the Markale

13 market on 5 February 1994, as well as questions on the methodology of the

14 reports generated by these two commissions. General, are you in a

15 position to comment extensively or in depth about these two commissions,

16 their work or their reports with respect to this incident?

17 A. I don't have any further knowledge other than stated on the

18 statement.

19 Q. Were you involved at all in the report writing?

20 A. No, I was not.

21 Q. And would you consider yourself a technician or expert in these

22 sorts of things?

23 A. Definitely not.

24 Q. General, yesterday with respect -- or in the context of the JCOs

25 operating in Gorazde, you were asked the following:

Page 6996

1 "The person guiding the plane is a member of UNPROFOR. Would you

2 agree with me that he, together with the pilot, makes up the team that is

3 attacking a Serb target?"

4 And your answer was:

5 "That is correct."

6 I'd like to ask a follow-up question to this: If the person

7 guiding the plane makes up the team, is it a legitimate tactic to seize

8 the person and then place him in a position that might be targeted by

9 NATO?

10 A. It certainly would have been a tactic employed and subsequently

11 whether -- but I don't think it was employed at the Gorazde incident

12 because they didn't take any JCOs as prisoners.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Ms. Bibles, I opposed yesterday to "if"

14 questions. You're doing exactly the same, and now we hear from the

15 witness that the "if" does not materialise. So therefore that could be

16 prevented by just putting factual questions to the witness.

17 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour, and I will cease that

18 direction.

19 Q. Finally, General, Tuesday, at transcript page 6890, with respect

20 to a Bosnian Serb position on a global peace agreement, you stated:

21 "It was a very open proposal. It was a general proposal that

22 was always on the table whenever we met with the Serb side."

23 Would it, therefore, be accurate to characterise General Mladic

24 as a peace monger?

25 A. Definitely not. He was using advantageous military position to

Page 7000

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, General. Thank you for

3 your answer.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rose, unless the questions by the Bench have

5 triggered any further need for questions -- they have not. This

6 concludes your testimony. I would like to thank you very much for coming

7 to The Hague, staying with us for three days, having answered all the

8 questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I

9 wish you a safe return home again.

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know who to address, but after the break,

14 the next witness will be ready?

15 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We take a break, and we will resume

17 at -- let's take a break of 25 minutes, which is something in between of

18 20 and 30 minutes. We will resume at 20 minutes past 11.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.52 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.23 a.m.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I established that Mr. Mladic apparently has not yet

22 returned. I do understand that the visit was slightly delayed, which may

23 have caused his not yet returning.

24 We first deal with the admission of evidence. Before we do so,

25 the first one, of course, would be the statement of -- the 92 ter

Page 7001

1 statement of Mr. Rose. Before we further discuss that, Ms. Bibles, the

2 Chamber has considered, of course, the submissions by the Defence, and

3 without going into every detail yet at this moment, on one issue the

4 Chamber has reached a conclusion which is that the last two paragraphs, I

5 think it's 218 and 219 that it's not much inclined to admit those two

6 paragraphs. I'm not talking about 217 which is dealt with in the same

7 comments by the Defence, but 218 and 219. The Chamber would strongly

8 advise you to strike them from the document you seek to have admitted.

9 MS. BIBLES: And, Your Honour, we'll do that at this time.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You'll do that. You'll do that. Okay. Then are

11 there any further submissions in relation to the associated exhibits?

12 But perhaps we start with the -- with the statement itself. After we've

13 now heard the evidence of the witness, Mr. Lukic, is there anything you'd

14 like to add to the objections that were raised in your response to the

15 motion in which the 92 ter statement was --

16 MR. LUKIC: We have nothing further, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing further.

18 MR. LUKIC: Nothing further.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, is there anything you'd like to further

20 raise in relation to the 92 ter statement, any further reply to the

21 Defence objections?

22 MS. BIBLES: With respect to this statement, no, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: No. Okay. The Chamber will decide on it.

24 Now, associated exhibits.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 7002

1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber decides the matter immediately. We have

2 of course had detailed submissions. The Chamber admits into evidence the

3 92 ter statement of Mr. Rose on the assumption that, as you just said,

4 218 and 219 are removed from it. I take it you'll upload it soon.

5 MS. BIBLES: We will, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the number to be assigned would be.

7 THE REGISTRAR: P736, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: P736 is admitted into evidence. It is the statement

9 of the 92 ter statement of General Rose without paragraphs 218 and 219.

10 Associated exhibits.

11 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, Mr. Lukic --

12 JUDGE ORIE: One second.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Registrar, you could remind us what the

15 65 ter number was, because I take it that either -- would it keep the

16 same number once a new version will be uploaded?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 28619 was previously

18 MFI'd as P728.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, about associated exhibits.

20 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, over the break Mr. Lukic and I had an

21 opportunity to go through the exhibits, both the associated exhibits.

22 The exhibits which were used on cross-examination and exhibits -- any

23 remaining exhibits used by the Prosecution, and I believe we have reached

24 agreement, and I could go through that list or I could provide the list

25 in whatever format that the Court would like.

Page 7003

1 JUDGE ORIE: If you -- how many are there remaining?

2 Approximately.

3 MS. BIBLES: Approximately -- it's over 20, Your Honour, less

4 than 30.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Over 20. I suggest the following: You put them on

6 a list. You give it to Mr. Registrar. He provisionally assigns numbers

7 to them, and then we receive that list with the assigned numbers and the

8 description of the document, of course, and then we'll decide on

9 admission, and we do it in one swing.

10 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: As my learned friend noticed, we did agree on -- on

13 those documents, only I would like to have two more admitted from the

14 associated exhibits list.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please then -- I think two we

16 could -- if you would just give the numbers then.

17 MR. LUKIC: Yes. It's 8146 and 8147.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, 8146 would receive number?

19 THE REGISTRAR: D131, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

21 8147.

22 THE REGISTRAR: D132, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: D132 is admitted, and we will have the list of 20

24 soon.

25 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

Page 7004

1 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, may I be excused at this time?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are excused Ms. Bibles.

3 MR. LUKIC: May I be excused as well, Your Honour?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hope that not everyone leaves this courtroom

5 this morning because we are the last ones to switch off the light. No.

6 You're excused, Mr. Lukic, of course.

7 Yes, for the Prosecution.

8 MS. HARBOUR: Yes. We're ready to call the next witness, but

9 before he's brought in I would like to make a brief submission.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Harbour. Yes. Before he will be brought

11 in, we will have to have the curtains down anyhow, because protective

12 measures in place are face distortion, voice distortion, and pseudonym,

13 which are leftovers from previous cases.

14 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And therefore when the witness enters the courtroom

16 for those -- for that short moment, the curtain should be down. Any

17 other matter?

18 MS. HARBOUR: Just one very brief matter. During proofing, the

19 Prosecution provided this upcoming witness, RM046, with a list of names

20 associated with the KP Dom Foca incidents that are charged, and we

21 requested the witness to provide information -- any information he had on

22 these individuals, and we will seek to tender the chart with his

23 comments. Unfortunately, the translation of the chart is not yet

24 complete, so the Prosecution requests that Your Honours allow us to

25 conduct the direct examination today and briefly re-open for the sole

Page 7006

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you. Please be seated.

2 Witness RM046 --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- your testimony will be given under protective

5 measures, that is face distortion, voice distortion, and pseudonym.

6 Please keep in mind that if any of the questions would require in an

7 answer to reveal information which again could reveal your identity,

8 please do not hesitate to ask me to go into private session.

9 Ms. Harbour, are you ready to examine the witness?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by Ms. Harbour.

12 Ms. Harbour is counsel for the Prosecution.

13 Ms. Harbour, you may proceed.

14 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please first have 65 ter 28549 on the

15 screen. And this should not be aired to the public.

16 Examination by Ms. Harbour:

17 Q. Witness RM046, the Trial Chamber has explained the protective

18 measures that apply to your testimony today, and I would like to ask you

19 to take a look at this pseudonym sheet, and I direct your attention to

20 where it says "Witness name." Is that your name?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, directing your attention to where it says "Date of birth,"

23 could you confirm that that is your date of birth?

24 A. Yes.

25 MS. HARBOUR: I'd like to tender this under seal, Your Honours.

Page 7007

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Harbour, would you please not forget to

2 switch off your microphone when the witness answers any question.

3 No objection.

4 Mr. Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P737, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence under seal.

7 MS. HARBOUR:

8 Q. Witness RM046, do you recall giving statements to the Prosecution

9 in April 1996 and in October 1998?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Did you also testify in the Krnojelac case?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Did you meet with the Prosecution in November of 2012 to review

14 the statements from April 1996 and October 1998, and also to review a

15 short excerpt of your testimony from the Krnojelac case?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. At that time, did you provide another statement which contained

18 corrections and clarifications of the prior statements and testimony and

19 some additional information as well?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you meet again with the Prosecution to review and sign that

22 new statement on the 19th of December, 2012?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Just prior to testifying today, did you again review each of your

25 statements and identify some changes that you wished to make?

Page 7008

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you review and sign a new proofing note containing only the

3 corrections that you identified from the statements that you gave in 1996

4 and 2012? Did you review and sign that this morning?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Now that you've taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the

7 accuracy and the truthfulness of your statements from 1996, from 1998,

8 from 2012, and the corrections contained in the note that you signed this

9 morning on the 18th of January, 2013?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. Do you also affirm the accuracy and truthfulness of the excerpt

12 of the testimony in Krnojelac that you reviewed which related to your

13 experience in Kula?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If asked the same questions that you were asked while providing

16 these prior statements and testimony, would you provide the same

17 responses in substance?

18 A. I would. They would be the same.

19 MS. HARBOUR: In light of this, Your Honours, I would like to

20 tender each of these prior statements, and I can list them one by one.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour, it's commonly -- these documents are

22 commonly shown to the witness. That's the standing practice before

23 admission is sought. I don't know whether there's any specific reason

24 why you do not, but it also may be that if there's -- if the Defence

25 would agree on the 65 ter documents does not in any way contest that

Page 7009

1 these are the statements given by the witness and it is the transcript of

2 the testimony given by the witness and the proofing notes, then of course

3 we could consider to proceed in that way, but without explanation, I

4 think we should not proceed as you suggest.

5 MS. HARBOUR: If you'd like, I'll show each of these to the

6 witness, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I gave two options. The second is more efficient,

8 but you would need the response by the Defence.

9 Mr. Stojanovic.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We will not object to the way

11 you proposed for things to be done.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that the Defence then accepts that the

13 documents uploaded under the 65 ter numbers Ms. Harbour will use are --

14 in effect it will not challenge that these are the statements given by

15 the witness and signed by the witness; is that correct, Mr. Stojanovic?

16 Yes.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then we proceed along this procedure. Could you

19 please mention the 65 ter numbers.

20 MS. HARBOUR: The 1996 statement is 65 ter 28546.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P738, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: P738 is admitted under seal.

24 MS. HARBOUR: The 1998 statement is 65 ter 28547.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

Page 7010

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P739, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal.

3 MS. HARBOUR: The excerpt from the Krnojelac testimony is

4 65 ter 28548.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P740, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal.

8 MS. HARBOUR: The December 2012 statement is 65 ter 28628.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P741, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal.

12 MS. HARBOUR: Finally, the signed proofing note containing

13 corrections is 65 ter 28652.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P742, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal. Ms. Harbour, you did not make

17 any distinction tendering under seal or not. One could wonder whether

18 the transcript from the Krnojelac case would need to be admitted under

19 seal because a pseudonym was used there as well, but I wanted to remain

20 on the safe side, but could you please consider to what extent it's still

21 needed to have that one under seal. Not necessarily now, but in the

22 hours and days to come.

23 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honours, it is not necessary for that one to

24 be under seal.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then P740, the status of P740 is changed into

Page 7011

1 public -- a public exhibit. Please proceed.

2 MS. HARBOUR: The Prosecution also seeks to tender two associated

3 exhibits which are associated to the December 2012 statements, and these

4 are 65 ter numbers 14073 and 14137.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections, Mr. Stojanovic?

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, 14073.

8 THE REGISTRAR: P743, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. Any need to have it under

10 seal?

11 MS. HARBOUR: No, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then 14137.

13 THE REGISTRAR: P744, Your Honours.

14 MS. HARBOUR: And this can be public.

15 JUDGE ORIE: P744 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.

16 MS. HARBOUR: With your leave, I would like to read a public

17 summary onto the record.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. You have explained to the witness the

19 purpose of it.

20 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, I have.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 MS. HARBOUR: Witness RM046 lived in Foca leading up to the

23 conflict.

24 He was arrested on 11 April 1992, shortly after the conflict

25 started. He was first detained in a military hangar in Livade before

Page 7012

1 being transferred to the KP Dom Foca prison on 17 April.

2 While at KP Dom, the witness observed mistreatment of detainees

3 and was himself assaulted by guards and interrogated. The detainees were

4 civilians, largely Bosniak, and included the elderly and physically and

5 mentally ill. The witness observed a large number of people being taken

6 from KP Dom, never to be heard from again. Others died from the bad

7 conditions in the prison and inadequate medical care. After the

8 conflict, the witness learned through his relationships with the victims'

9 families and his involvement with a NGO and Missing Persons Commissions

10 that many of the people he knew were at KP Dom were later exhumed from

11 mass graves.

12 Witness RM046 heard speeches by SDS politicians, Velibor Ostojic

13 and Vojislav Maksimovic, on Radio Foca to the effect that Muslims and

14 Serbs could not live together. He also heard a news report that

15 Miroslav Stanic, the head of the SDS in Foca, had gone to Ratko Mladic to

16 ask for military help. RM046 met several times with the KP Dom prison

17 warden, Krnojelac, who told him that KP Dom officials received orders

18 from the military command.

19 In July 1993, RM046 was transferred to the Kula prison where

20 conditions were similar. Here again, prisoners were mistreated. They

21 performed forced labour, and they were killed. He was in Kula for one

22 year before he was exchanged in June 1995.

23 Could I please have exhibit 65 ter 18578 on the screen.

24 Q. Witness RM046, in your evidence you mention many rooms in which

25 you were detained in KP Dom. Do you recognise what is depicted in this

Page 7013

1 document on the screen?

2 A. Yes. It is the building number 1 where I was at the beginning of

3 my detention.

4 MS. HARBOUR: I'd like to tender this --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry. Sorry. No, this is the

6 building number 2 where there were about ten solitary cells on the ground

7 floor on the right-hand side.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

9 move away from the microphone as we cannot understand everything. He is

10 now too close.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please sit a bit further away from the

12 microphone.

13 MS. HARBOUR: I would like to tender this into evidence,

14 Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No objection?

16 Mr. Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P745, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. P745 is admitted into

19 evidence.

20 Perhaps next time, Ms. Harbour, you could have the view rotated

21 of a document which may make it easier for the witness to read any text

22 on it, although it's of relative advantage, but he has recognised it now.

23 Please proceed.

24 MS. HARBOUR:

25 Q. Witness 046, in your 2012 statement, in paragraph 1, in the first

Page 7014

1 bullet point you discuss several mass graves. How did you come to know

2 about these graves? And if your response should be given in closed

3 session, please let us know.

4 A. Certainly. The mass graves were found after my release, and that

5 is when I found out that they existed. To be more precise, it was on the

6 15th of June, 1995. I was exchanged under the auspices of the

7 International Red Cross. Several years later, in 1998 more precisely,

8 exhumations began in all of the municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina. At

9 first the exhumation and identification process in Bijeljina took place

10 based on witness statements, clothes recognition, or identification

11 papers that were found on the corpses or by visual examination. By 2001

12 or 2002, following the exhumations, there was an identification process

13 undertaken by the international commission relying on DNA analysis in

14 order to identify any killed persons precisely. If you wish, I may

15 enumerate the more important mass grave sites. Most of the sites --

16 Q. That's not necessary. What I would like for you to tell the

17 Chamber is how you knew about these graves.

18 A. I learned about the graves from the relatives of those killed,

19 their husbands, sons, et cetera. It was also through the state

20 commission for the missing persons, the international commission, and of

21 course through the NGO, the detainees association of Bosnia-Herzegovina

22 which also engaged in looking for those who had been killed or went

23 missing.

24 Q. You list several of these graves in your statement. I'll just

25 read them to you, and if there are any more that contained the bodies of

Page 7015

1 KP Dom detainees, and let's limit it to the KP Dom detainees, if there

2 were any more, please let us know after I have read to you the ones in

3 your statement. Your statement speaks of Jama Piljak, Paunci, Buk

4 Bijela, Previla and Miljevina.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slow down because the interpreters

6 are behind now.

7 Could you now answer the question which was whether there are any

8 other graves you are aware of where KP Dom detainees were buried.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, also the Buk Bijela tunnel,

10 the Piljak pit, the mass grave in Dobro Polje, and the largest mass grave

11 is the River Drina, which unfortunately was not mentioned here.

12 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please have 65 ter 14072 on the screen.

13 Q. Witness RM046, the document that will shortly appear is entitled:

14 "List of prisoners of war to be released from Foca prison because

15 it was established in the proceedings that they have not committed crimes

16 against the Serbian people."

17 And it's dated 18 September 1992, signed by M. Kovac. Do you

18 have any information about what happened to the people on this list?

19 A. Yes. Most of them, or basically everyone -- perhaps we can go

20 name by name. I could tell you what happened with them. One also needs

21 to remember what took place in August and September in the detention

22 centre. Whatever happened in the front lines had catastrophic

23 consequences for us, the detainees.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could we limit ourselves to the people on this list.

25 Not necessarily all one by one, but could you give a description of what

Page 7016

1 happened to them or most of them.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President. I think

3 that this document was written later on the date after these people were

4 taken out. This was on the 17th of September, 1992, when it went by

5 rooms. From each room five to seven people were taken out. It wasn't 35

6 people but 45 people.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to move back

8 from the microphone.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- could I again ask you to be a bit further

10 away from the microphone. Perhaps the microphones could be adjusted.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I need to repeat what I said

12 earlier?

13 JUDGE ORIE: No, there's no need to do that. Please continue

14 your answer.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, everything that happened

16 in the field at the front had a lot of negative repercussions for us who

17 were in the camps. Specifically I'm talking about the Foca camp here,

18 the KP Dom, but this happened in the other camps as well. I said that

19 this list was drafted subsequently after a group of 45 people were taken

20 out of the rooms that were there. I can mention a number of people who

21 were taken out of my room. Number 18. I was there when this was

22 happening.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please focus your answer on the question;

24 that is, what happened to them. What was their fate? You have now told

25 us that they were taken out of the rooms the day prior to the date of

Page 7017

1 this document. What happened to them?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They were all taken out, and

3 they were all killed. Many of them have been exhumed, and what is

4 characteristic is that whenever a group of this size was taken out, it

5 was never the case that they were killed and buried in the same mass

6 grave. So we can find these people in a number of mass graves.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. If Ms. Harbour would be

8 interested to know more, she will ask you about it. Your answer,

9 therefore, is these people were not released but taken out of the rooms

10 the previous day and were all killed. That is, I understand, your

11 answer.

12 Please proceed, Ms. Harbour.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

14 MS. HARBOUR: I'd like to tender this into evidence,

15 Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 14072 shall be assigned

18 Exhibit P746.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

20 MS. HARBOUR:

21 Q. You've just told us that when something happened on the

22 battle-field, that had a effect on the KP Dom detainees. And please

23 answer my -- listen to my question and only answer the question. Were

24 you ever informed by someone that KP Dom detainees were taken out in

25 retaliation?

Page 7018

1 A. Formulated in that way that they were taken out in retaliation,

2 no, but a Serb who found himself in prison later, he told me. I knew him

3 well from before. He knew me as well. He told me, It's a good thing

4 that you were not exchanged, because all the exchanges to date are

5 suspicious. This was in May 1993.

6 Q. Did you ever have any conversations with someone named

7 Dr. Dragovic about any of these issues?

8 A. Yes. The colleague that you mentioned, I know him. We worked

9 together. At the beginning, he was engaged by Mr. Krnojelac to provide

10 certain medical assistance to us, because at the time there were many

11 people in the camp, some 6- to 700, according to some people in the camp,

12 of all ages, and at one time when the offensive on Gorazde began, they

13 probably suffered certain losses. And then this colleague that you

14 mentioned told me that, It's very dangerous for you here. I asked him.

15 This was in the medical station. I said, Why? He said, People -- three

16 to five Muslims will be taken out and killed from here depending on their

17 function.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour, first of all, if you want the witness

19 to focus on your question, if he moves away from it, you should take him

20 back to what your question was. Now, it may well be that all he tells us

21 is what you had in mind to ask him, but that's unclear for the Chamber.

22 Witness, the simple question was did you ever have any

23 conversations on these issues. So the simple answer is yes, and then

24 Ms. Harbour will ask further questions about specific matters she's

25 interested in.

Page 7019

1 Ms. Harbour, you may proceed.

2 MS. HARBOUR:

3 Q. I would just like to ask you to complete that last thought you

4 had. You said that Mr. -- Dr. Dragovic told you three to five Muslims

5 would be taken out and killed depending on their function. Did he say

6 why they would be taken out and killed?

7 A. Yes. He clarified it. If any Serb is killed at the front,

8 depending on his function -- actually, this actually did happen.

9 Q. If you could just clarify. When you say any Serb was killed at

10 the front, depending on his function, what did you mean by that?

11 A. Simply it's an opportunity for the Serbs, the fact that they have

12 Muslims available who are going to make up in this case for their

13 casualties in battle.

14 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

15 witness until we re-open our direct examination on Monday, for the sole

16 purpose of the chart.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is understood.

18 Mr. Stojanovic, we have another ten minutes to go unless you

19 would prefer to have an early break. Apparently you prefer to start.

20 Witness RM046, you'll now be cross -- you'll now be

21 cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for

22 Mr. Mladic, who is, and perhaps I should explain that to you, has waived

23 his right today to be present in court.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I just

Page 7025

1 prefer this to be under seal. This is P738, the B/C/S version, statement

2 made on the 19th and 20th of April, 1996.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is already in evidence. Yes. Please

4 proceed.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I wanted to go through your statement

8 and to get some clarifications from you, and I also would like us to be

9 careful when mentioning names.

10 You say that before the war broke out, you were a member of the

11 Main Board of the SDA. What I would like to know is what your specific

12 duties were?

13 A. I didn't have any particular duties other than that I was a

14 member of the local organisation of the SDA.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. And how many people were there in the Main Board at the time?

18 A. In the beginning there were 12. Later it expanded to 15.

19 Q. And did you take part in talks about the division of power in the

20 municipality where you come from?

21 A. No, not directly. I was a member of a commission for the

22 appointment to posts, but these negotiations actually never took part

23 because the Serb side would always find some reason to postpone this

24 discussion. They simply were not interested in appointing certain cadres

25 to the posts signed to the Muslims or to the Serbs.

Page 7026

1 Q. And the meetings that you attended, was there any discussion

2 about the arming of the Bosniak population?

3 A. No, because we still had a lot of confidence in the former JNA.

4 Q. And did you know anything about the distribution of weapons and

5 military equipment according to ethnicity?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You were brought in on the 11th of April, 1992. Is that the

8 correct date?

9 A. Yes. I'm sorry, I was not taken in. I was captured. There is a

10 difference between being taken in or brought in and being captured. My

11 hands were tied at the place where I worked, where I used to work for 25

12 years.

13 Q. And who did that?

14 A. This was done by people unknown to me. These were actually

15 members of the JNA who told me and my director and the drivers -- they

16 tied our hands, actually. But Serbs familiar to me helped them. They

17 entered the medical centre earlier, sometime before noon. They were

18 armed with infantry weapons and 48s and Kalashnikovs. They were dressed

19 in former JNA uniforms. The unit was under the command of

20 Radomir Cicmil, aka Cile. He had the rank of captain. He introduced

21 himself to us as being in charge of that squad. There were some 10 to 12

22 people there -- I'm sorry.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Most of all this is in the name of the statement.

24 The name of the commander, that he knew some of them, how they came.

25 Mr. Stojanovic, could you please put focused questions on relevant issues

Page 7027

1 and especially issues that you wish to challenge. Please proceed.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I did not ask

3 this of the witness. The question was much simpler, but the witness just

4 continued.

5 Q. Sir, let's try to focus on what my questions are specifically.

6 This arrest and capture, according to you, does that have anything to do

7 with your political activities?

8 A. No, no. It was just that I was a Muslim and that I was in favour

9 of a different option.

10 Q. When you say a different option, what do you mean by that?

11 A. Well, I wasn't in the SDS, but I was in the SDA, and the option

12 implied reasonable life together with neighbours and Serbs. It did not

13 include preparations for war.

14 Q. So I would be right if I were to say that this capture of yours

15 directly had to do with your political engagement in the

16 Party for Democratic Action; is that correct?

17 A. No. No. How can you get that out of it if I said that the

18 capture was the result of my being a Muslim and that I belonged to a

19 different option? Perhaps you can take it in that context a little bit,

20 but not absolutely as the decisive factor. It had nothing to do with it

21 that I was a member of the SDA, because it didn't bother me that all the

22 Serbs were in the SDS and that there was an organisation where they could

23 come together and agree on what to do. There were more Muslims than

24 Serbs in Foca, and it never bothered me personally that an organisation

25 existed that would gather each ethnic group where they would sit and

Page 7028

1 discuss their life and goings-on.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question has been answered.

3 Mr. Stojanovic, I think you could have concluded that five lines ago as

4 well. Please proceed.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. At the time, were there political options where you were from

7 that did not have any national or ethnic qualifiers?

8 A. Yes. There were several. There were reformists in favour of

9 Yugoslavia. This was the party of Ante Markovic. There were also

10 Communists. It wasn't a significant number, but they did have a

11 representative each in the Municipal Assembly.

12 Q. After you spent five days at Livade, you were transferred to the

13 KP Dom Foca?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I'm asking you this: When you came, can you remember who the

16 warden was of KP Dom in Foca?

17 A. I was transferred from Livade on the 17th, late at night, and

18 then the following day on the 18th I learned that the camp commander was

19 Milorad Krnojelac. (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 Q. And are you able to tell us if you know who was the KP Foca

22 warden before Milorad Krnojelac?

23 A. Yes. This was Radojica Tesovic.

24 Q. Can we now look at 65 ter document 11167 in e-court, please. The

25 document is not under seal, Your Honours.

Page 7029

1 Sir, according to your best recollection, who was charge of KP

2 Foca at the time? Which jurisdiction was it under?

3 A. It was under the jurisdiction of the SDS or the

4 Territorial Defence of the Serbian Democratic Party.

5 Q. And can we agree that it was a correctional facility where

6 convicts throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina would serve their long prison

7 sentences, and they came from all other Yugoslavia; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm also addressing you, Mr. Groome. Is there any

10 dispute about Mr. Krnojelac being the warden and being appointed by the

11 minister of justice in, say, the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 MS. HARBOUR: No dispute, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then they are useless questions apart from that part

14 of it is already in the statement. Mr. Stojanovic, could I really urge

15 you to immediately move to matters in dispute and relevant to the case.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Then I

17 would just like to tender this document 11167.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Although agreed upon. No objections I take it.

19 MS. HARBOUR: No objections, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D133, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. Please proceed to relevant

23 and disputed issues.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Sir, can you please tell us if the guards in KP Dom were

Page 7030

1 employees of the justice ministry?

2 A. The KP Dom staff, specifically the guards, were working there

3 from before. I assume that they were appointed by the commander, the

4 camp commander, Mr. Krnojelac, to their duties.

5 Q. And can we agree that these were not members of the

6 Army of Republika Srpska?

7 A. No, but members of the Army of Republika Srpska in the beginning

8 frequently would come in, enter the rooms. They would search us, and

9 this went on for some 10 or 15 days after the arrest of the Muslims from

10 Foca.

11 Q. I will ask you about that as well. Can you please just answer my

12 questions. So the staff at the KP Dom were not members of the

13 Army of Republika Srpska.

14 A. Yes, that is correct. But actually I must correct myself. For

15 15 days they did carry out these duties that we discussed, and they were

16 wearing these uniforms that were well known to me, blue uniforms, but

17 then for the subsequent 15 days they would go to the front throughout

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina and then they would probably be wearing proper

19 military uniforms. We found out this from the work platoons, because

20 some 40 to 50 people would leave every day to work on the farms or in

21 some other work units that the KP Dom had even before the war.

22 Q. After you came to the KP Dom on the 17th of April, you said that

23 for the first 15 days soldiers did come. Can you please tell us what

24 they did there.

25 A. They conducted searches. They confiscated jewellery. They

Page 7031

1 abused people. In that period there was a group of guards from Uzice as

2 well.

3 Q. And can we agree that this is the period before the

4 Army of Republika Srpska was formed that was still during the time of the

5 JNA?

6 A. That means that I am speaking the truth, Mr. Stojanovic.

7 Q. I will repeat my question. Do we agree that this was during the

8 period when the JNA still existed and that this was the period when the

9 Army of Republika Srpska was still not formed?

10 A. Yes. The Army of Republika Srpska was officially formed on the

11 12th of May, 1992. Up until then, there was the Territorial Defence

12 which actually transformed into the Army of Republika Srpska.

13 Q. Let us look at 65 ter document 08444. This document needn't be

14 under seal either, Your Honour.

15 The date is the 18th of June, 1992. As you can see on the next

16 page, it was signed by the War Presidency president, Miroslav Stanic.

17 In the third paragraph of the document it reads:

18 "The current military and civilian authorities of the Serbian

19 municipality of Foca have thus far forbidden to both groups to leave the

20 territory of Foca municipality. It is quite normal that any family would

21 like to and want to live together. That is why it comes as no surprise

22 that there is ever-increasing pressure on the military and civilian

23 authorities.

24 In item 1 the document states:

25 "The civilian and military authorities shall allow all loyal

Page 7032

1 citizens who have not violated the laws of the BH Serbian Republic or

2 done anything in this still-ongoing bar to endanger the safety of the

3 Serbian people in our area to leave in the direction of their choice."

4 Do you have any knowledge about this document and the issues

5 discussed therein?

6 A. This is simply not true. They did not allow Muslims to leave the

7 town of Foca of their own free will. This is nebulous, drafted by

8 Commander Stanic whom I knew personally.

9 Q. In June 1992, was there freedom of movement for the entire

10 population of Foca municipality by that time?

11 A. No. No. Please allow me to clarify. As soon as conflicts broke

12 out, most of the able-bodied men were arrested or captured and taken to

13 the KP Dom in Foca. That was in town. While some of them managed to

14 flee in the direction of Trnovo. In the town itself, what was left was

15 basically the elderly, women, and children. Whoever was able to escape

16 that hell had to cross the Drina, which had very high levels at that time

17 of year, but people were prepared to do anything to escape the hell of

18 war.

19 Q. If you have such knowledge, could you tell us whether parts of

20 Foca municipality were controlled by members of the

21 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. No, because by that time that army had not been formed.

23 Q. Are you familiar with the existence of certain elements of the

24 Patriotic League in the territory of Foca municipality at the time?

25 A. No.

Page 7033

1 Q. Did you know that in the general area of Foca municipality, in

2 the direction of Gorazde and Tjentiste at the time there was combat?

3 A. Yes. At the foot of the hills in the direction of those places

4 there was some combat, especially in the direction of Gorazde. All

5 able-bodied men from Foca were engaged in defending Gorazde straight

6 away.

7 Q. Ustikolina, who controlled it at the time?

8 A. On the 26th of April, it was taken over by Serb forces, and they

9 continued further afield to Osanice, which is some 20 kilometres away.

10 They were stopped there. Throughout the war the line remained the same.

11 There were no movements any more.

12 Q. In the course of the first several months of your stay in

13 KP Foca, were there any captured members of the Bosniak army, the TO, the

14 Patriotic League, the Green Berets, or later the Army of BH?

15 A. No. Everyone who was there was civilian. If anyone happened to

16 be captured at the front lines who belonged to the Muslim side, they were

17 never brought in there. They were liquidated right there and then.

18 Q. How would you know that?

19 A. Well, I do. If I were to describe Bosnia-Herzegovina as a large

20 patchwork, within that patchwork Foca was but a piece. But the worst

21 things happened there with regards to people and property.

22 Q. I'm asking you how you know that such people were killed on the

23 spot when captured. Did you have occasion to see that?

24 A. I didn't have occasion to see soldiers killing someone like that,

25 but later on when I was exchanged, I learned that such things happened,

Page 7034

1 and such soldiers who were killed in that way were then used by the Serb

2 side to have exchanges of the killed. There was such practice in place

3 throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina. The sides exchanged their dead.

4 Q. My question was this: Did you have any direct knowledge in order

5 for you to be able to assert that soldiers were not being captured?

6 A. There were no captured soldiers who were brought to the KP Dom in

7 Foca.

8 Q. During your stay in the KP Dom in Foca were you interrogated?

9 A. Yes, twice. The interrogation was carried out by Zoran Vladic

10 whom I knew personally. He used to be a scene of crime officer with the

11 Ministry of the Interior.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I read from the witness statement:

13 "I was interrogated twice during my time in KP Dom."

14 What is the use of asking whether he was interrogated unless you

15 have serious reasons to challenge that? That's -- it's not here to hear

16 the story again. It is -- you are expected to cross-examine the witness

17 on the evidence he has given. Would you please do that.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will rely on this

19 precisely because of the people who took statements from this witness.

20 That is why I simply wanted the witness to confirm. I do not dispute

21 what he said.

22 Q. I wanted to ask you the following: Save for the gentleman you

23 mentioned, who else interrogated you?

24 A. No one else did, but I was captured and taken to a solitary cell

25 in building number one on the third evening. I spent there four days and

Page 7035

1 four nights. The people involved were guardsmen and the prison guards.

2 Q. I'll try again. My question is this: Please tell the Court what

3 you were interrogated about.

4 A. He wanted to know where I was before my capture, where I moved,

5 whether I possessed any weapons, and that was it. Mr. Vladic knew me all

6 too well, and they found nothing in my apartment. I had no reason to be

7 concerned about such an interrogation.

8 Q. Did you sign any kind of statement?

9 A. Yes, I had to. It was customary to have such statements signed,

10 because the interrogator would require that.

11 Q. You were interrogated by the employees of the KP Dom, not by

12 soldiers?

13 A. Yes. I think at the time they were designated to those

14 positions, and they were in charge of interrogating or, as they called

15 it, processing detainees. There was Mr. Koprivica and then someone known

16 as Miso as well as Vojo Starovic.

17 Q. In addition to those men, do you know whether anybody else

18 interrogated detainees during your stay in the KP Dom in Foca?

19 A. Yes. There was a room used for torture, if I may say so. That's

20 where military policemen came at first, and they interrogated and

21 tortured prisoners who came after I did, and they told me what kind of

22 torture they had been put through.

23 Q. You did not see that?

24 A. I didn't. One couldn't see through walls. But if you have

25 someone who had lived through such torture come to your cell and they

Page 7036

1 tell you about it and I can see numerous bruises caused by blunt

2 instruments, then of course it tells me that it was indeed done.

3 Q. Except for the occasion when you were brought to the KP Dom in

4 Foca, otherwise you were not beaten.

5 A. I was. There was a guardsman who hit me with the baton on the

6 back. Another one came and slapped me around as well. Standing next to

7 us were the policemen, Serb guards, who did not stop that. Following

8 that I was taken to the solitary cell.

9 Q. From that moment on until the 5th of July, 1993, when you were

10 transferred to the KP Kula facility, you were not further abused or

11 beaten?

12 A. I was not physically mistreated, but I was mistreated in other

13 ways.

14 Q. Were you able to assist the people (redacted)?

15 A. Only in the presence of policemen, when Gojko Jokanovic, the

16 nurse, allowed or requested for it to be done. He wasn't qualified to

17 administer any kind of aid. There had been a physician, a doctor, but as

18 of March he had fled Foca.

19 Q. During your stay in KP Foca, you received three meals a day;

20 correct?

21 A. Yes. But it was enough to keep you alive, nothing more.

22 Q. How were you accommodated? Were there any beds?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the previous question. The

24 statement reads, "We were fed regularly this whole time at KP Dom."

25 Therefore, you're seeking, apart from that the answer might not only

Page 7037

1 favour your case but there's no need to ask again what is already clearly

2 in the statement, and I waited until your next question to know for sure

3 that there was no follow-up. Please proceed.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will abide

5 by your instruction.

6 Q. The food you were given, can you tell the Court where it was

7 prepared and cooked and then given to you?

8 A. Yes. It was in front of the restaurant where they had a trellis,

9 and they had large cauldrons where food was prepared for the detainees,

10 and in the mess itself it was served upon us.

11 Q. The food was not prepared by the army, it was prepared by the

12 management and staff of the KP Dom in Foca; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. I'd like to discuss Mr. Kovac you mentioned. I

15 wanted to draw your attention to paragraph -- the first paragraph on

16 page 8 in the B/C/S, which is paragraph 45. At least that's how I marked

17 it.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In the English, Your Honour, it

19 is page 8, the fourth paragraph.

20 Q. Perhaps you can find it in your hard copy.

21 A. Which page?

22 Q. In the B/C/S version, it is page 8, the first paragraph. Let me

23 ask you this: What is your knowledge concerning the man whom you knew as

24 Commander Kovac?

25 A. I know he had been an officer with the former JNA before the war

Page 7038

1 and that his rank was that of captain. The Foca SDS invited him and

2 another 11 officers to take part in the war effort against Muslims. He

3 was appointed as one of the senior commanders of what was to become the

4 Foca Brigade. At first it was called the Foca Tactical Group or the

5 Drina group. I'm not sure.

6 Q. Did you ever have occasion to see him there?

7 A. No, I did not, but he was well described to me by the Cengic

8 cousins. They told me he was short, very strict, and in conversation

9 with the three of them, he told them that now was the right time to

10 settle accounts with Muslims and that Muslims would never live in Foca

11 again, that it was Serbian land. He also told them that he was sorry to

12 have them transported to Belgrade. It was in January 1993, and the

13 conversation took place in the camp warden's office.

14 Q. You didn't attend the conversation?

15 A. I did not, but the words were conveyed to me by the people I

16 trust to the fullest.

17 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness said that he never had occasion to

18 see him, how could he possibly attend a conversation between the source

19 of his knowledge and the person involved? And if you look at the

20 statement, you see that the person is described as a short person. I

21 wouldn't need that description if I would have seen the person.

22 So, Mr. Stojanovic, please do what you're expected to do in the

23 interest of your client.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I just

25 wanted to finish with this question.

Page 7039

1 Q. Everything that you've just said in relation to Mr. Kovac is

2 information that you got from other people; is that correct?

3 JUDGE ORIE: That was the answer to the previous question, "I did

4 not attend, but the words were conveyed." He has never seen the person,

5 and he describes what information was given about a conversation these

6 other people had. Superfluous question. Next one, please.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave.

8 Q. In the paragraph that I showed you, you say, in describing Kovac

9 in the same way:

10 "They talked with him at the KP Dom sometime in April 1993."

11 Please, who was it that talked in April?

12 A. I'm sorry, there was a correction made. It is the

13 15th of January, actually, because in previous documents --

14 Q. And then when you say "they," you mean the gentleman that you

15 mentioned just a bit earlier?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then you say:

18 "After my complaints, there were some slight changes."

19 Who did you address your complaints to?

20 A. In order improve the situation for the inmates.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: To whom did you address those complaints, because

23 that was the question put to you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were objections made to the

25 warden on two occasions when seeing him that he could do something to

Page 7040

1 improve the situation, and also there was a complaint addressed to the

2 deputy of the council.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the name you mentioned, the deputy

5 of the council. Did you give a name?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His name was Savo Todovic, Todovic.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Next question, please.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. When you said that after my complaints there was some slight

10 changes, what happened? What did you mean?

11 A. Well, after a month or two they gave us another small slice of

12 bread. That's what the use was of that conversation. But I think that

13 that was in 1993.

14 Q. And did you speak with Mr. Todovic or with Mr. Krnojelac?

15 A. With both of them.

16 Q. And can you please tell me who did you talk about regarding your

17 exchange?

18 A. You mean at the KP Dom?

19 Q. I'm talking about the Foca KP Dom, before you left for Kula.

20 A. I spoke with the warden, Krnojelac.

21 Q. Kovac, whom you mentioned, had nothing to do with your status or

22 with your exchange; is that correct?

23 A. Well, I really couldn't rule that out or I couldn't confirm it,

24 because he was the superior of the civilian affairs sector at the KP Dom.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber has considered the

Page 7041

1 development of the cross-examination. We unfortunately had to establish

2 that the majority of your questions find already a relatively precise

3 answer in the statement. You asked him, for example, the last, did you

4 speak to Mr. Todovic and Mr. Krnojelac. That's in the second statement.

5 It's clear that the witness spoke with them. That's -- I would say

6 70 per cent of your questions are related to matters which are already in

7 the statement despite the fact that we invited you again and again not to

8 do that.

9 We approach the matter differently. During the next break,

10 you'll have an opportunity, apart from looking at the chart, you have an

11 opportunity to review your questions against the statements which were

12 tendered by the Prosecution and which were admitted. Then you have

13 another 15 minutes to put questions to the witness and that is it.

14 Meanwhile, we'll invite the witness, Witness RM046, a translation

15 in your own language of a chart is available now. We'd like you to

16 carefully read during the next break that chart and your comments. What

17 we're interested to know at the end is whether it reflects accurately

18 your comments and whether the comments are true to the best of your

19 knowledge. We'd like to hear that from you after the break.

20 If you would please be so kind as to do that.

21 Then we current into closed session in order for you to be able

22 to leave the courtroom, and the chart will be handed out to you --

23 Mr. Stojanovic, would you still wish to inspect the chart as given to the

24 witness?

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will also

Page 7044

1 Q. Could you please look at page 7, the penultimate paragraph in the

2 B/C/S version?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, did you say that we must look at

4 page 2 in the English?

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps it's the

6 interpretation. It's page 8, paragraph 2 on that page.

7 Q. Sir, what I would like to ask you about the forced labour is

8 this: Did you ever have information where the prisoners were taken

9 outside to work, outside of the KP Dom?

10 A. Yes. They went to the farm, and they did all the farming work.

11 There was some cattle there, pigs, cows, poultry, and that's the sort of

12 work that they did. Others went to chop wood during the winter. When

13 the weather was quite bad they would collect firewood both for the needs

14 of the KP Dom in order to prepare food, but not for our heating, however.

15 They also collected wood for some citizens of Foca. In the summer they

16 went to cut the grass in the meadows, to collect hay. They did all kinds

17 of physical labour, physical jobs.

18 Q. And the work that they did, they did it for the KP Dom

19 administration. Am I correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Also when they worked at the metal processing factory or the

22 furniture factory within the prison compound, these were facilities that

23 existed from before the war; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you say the furniture factory within

Page 7045

1 the prison compound. I see some in the furniture factory and other areas

2 outside the prison. So I'm a bit confused there. Unless I missed a

3 correction.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Perhaps

5 I was hurrying. I'm familiar with that area.

6 Q. Sir, can you please explain where the physical location of the

7 facility for the manufacture of furniture is?

8 A. It's just outside of the wall of the KP Dom, but there was

9 another perimeter that actually went and included the furniture factory.

10 Q. So it would be correct to say that it was part of the overall

11 KP Dom facility?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at paragraph 37 together. This is

14 the last paragraph in pages 6 to 7 in the B/C/S version, and in the

15 English version this is page 7, the third paragraph.

16 My question to you is this: Do you know what the problem was

17 that the Serbs had around the 7th of September? You talk about that in

18 this part of your report.

19 A. Yes, I do. Should I clarify?

20 Q. Yes. I would like to ask you to do that.

21 A. I can see that there was a group of 45 people here taken out on

22 the 17th of September, and there was a serious incident for the Army of

23 Republika Srpska on the 7th of September while transporting weapons from

24 Kalinovik to Foca in order to secure the Foca Brigade. There was a

25 serious incident that occurred when all the weapons were lost and there

Page 7046

1 were casualties. All the personnel died.

2 Q. Can you please tell me how they died?

3 A. Since the Serbs had a vast arsenal of explosive devices and

4 mines, they were placing them everywhere without marking the maps

5 properly, and as the column of vehicles came by with the vehicles and the

6 personnel, they encountered a mine, and there was a pile-up, an accident,

7 and it all went up and turned to ashes. And I just want to add this for

8 the sake of the Chamber: This occurred not far from the village of

9 Ratine, which is in the Foca municipality area, and on the 5th of August,

10 a little bit earlier, the Serbs brought from Kalinovik, from

11 Jelisejsko Polje 24 men --

12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop you there. The question was to

13 tell the Chamber how they died, and you have done that. Mr. Stojanovic

14 is limited in his time.

15 Please, next question, Mr. Stojanovic.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. Let us try and stay focused on what I am asking you about. Let

18 us go back to one detail. Where did you get that information that it

19 occurred due to a landmine planted by the Serb army?

20 A. Nezir Cengic was in the medical centre at the time. He had had a

21 heart infarction. He was there at the time. He saw many coffins in

22 front of the building, and later on when we met he told me everything in

23 detail.

24 Q. Did he also tell you that it happened because of a landmine

25 planted by the Serb army?

Page 7047

1 A. Yes, because the nurses and medical staff were discussing it.

2 That's how he knew.

3 Q. Thank you. Please tell us something about the KP Dom Kula where

4 you were transferred on the 5th of July, 1993. Under whose competence

5 was it?

6 A. It was controlled by civilian organs. However, they had superior

7 military structures following the same system that existed in Foca, in

8 Batkovic, and elsewhere in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 Q. Did you ever receive any kind of operational information that

10 KP Kula was under military authority?

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Q. What were conditions like in KP Kula as opposed to Foca?

14 A. Pretty much the same. We were on the ground floor where there

15 was a lot of moisture, and there were poor hygiene conditions, much like

16 in Foca. The same goes for medical check-ups. It was very difficult to

17 see a physician. There were always guards there as an obstacle who

18 created problems for us to see doctors. On occasion in the evening when

19 we thought things were better, perhaps we could place a very sick young

20 person on a chair and carry him to the infirmary because he was a severe

21 diabetic. It just so happened that the next day he died.

22 Q. Let me ask you something else. The place

23 Rataj [Microphone not activated].

24 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Stojanovic's microphone is off.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7048

1 Q. The village of Rataj, which is where you mentioned the VRS

2 soldiers were killed, was it deep inside VRS territory?

3 A. Sorry, it wasn't Rataj but Ratine. Yes, it is a village

4 bordering on Foca and Kalinovik.

5 Q. There was no combat there at the time?

6 A. No. It was in September. All of the forces and personnel on the

7 Muslim side had left Foca long ago. In Velibor Ostojic's report, he said

8 that Foca fell on the 26th of April.

9 Q. In your view or as you say in the statement, the ideologists

10 entire -- behind the entire situation there were Ostojic and another

11 person. Who were they?

12 A. They were elected representatives of the Serb people in the BH

13 parliament. Velibor Ostojic was the information minister, and

14 Maksimovic, who used to be a Serbo-Croatian professor at the school of

15 humanities, was appointed SDS club president in the BH parliament.

16 Q. In that period in 1992 and 1993, they were not part of the

17 military; correct?

18 A. I'm not certain about that. I don't think they were military.

19 Let me add this: But they were tasked with preparing the Serbs for war

20 in Foca, and they were tasked by the BH SDS Main Board.

21 Q. Where did you get that information?

22 A. From various sources. I even heard it over the radio. Until the

23 15th of August we could hear various radio stations, and we could hear

24 both of them speak on Radio Foca in that regard.

25 Q. Sir, let us not go into the names of towns, but tell me, was your

Page 7049

1 property returned to you?

2 A. Only partially. Let me explain. All that was left were the

3 walls of the apartment. There was no furniture or anything else.

4 Q. Did you renovate and reconstruct your housing unit?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Two minutes, Mr. Stojanovic.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for the

8 two minutes, but I conclude with this question, and I'd like to thank the

9 witness.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

11 Ms. Harbour, perhaps we first deal with the chart, but perhaps

12 first I ask the witness.

13 Were you able to read the chart and your comments in it,

14 Witness RM046?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any need to correct anything as you found

17 it in the chart?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I just wanted to add that I

19 was quite pleased to have been able to create this document. I owe you a

20 clarification. Perhaps you will ask yourselves how come I am aware of so

21 much information about every single person. (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 JUDGE ORIE: We're not seeking such clarification. We take it

24 that you gave your comments to the best of your abilities and on the

25 basis of your experience and knowledge of the circumstances at the time.