130221ED

Page 9074

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. If you remember, we left off

3 with a document yesterday which is number 65 ter 10158. It's a document

4 under seal, and I would advise, out of abundance of caution, for it not

5 to be broadcast. Can we please have page 4 in the B/C/S and page 3 in

6 the English. We need the next page in English, please.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I have no page in English at all.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 3.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I have two pages in B/C/S.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So page 3 in the English. Thank

11 you.

12 Q. Sir, if you recall, this is a document entitled: "Report on

13 on-site forensic investigation." We're talking about the incident which

14 happened on Geteova Street, number 12, on 22nd June 1995.

15 If you remember, I asked you yesterday if you remember that, on

16 that occasion, it was established that the projectile came from the west,

17 270 degrees, azimuth?

18 A. It's stated in the document in front of me, yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at the same document under 65 ter,

20 only we need page 9 in B/C/S and 8 in English. We also looked at it

21 yesterday. It was a report on the forensic investigation of the traces

22 of explosion conducted on the 17th of July, 1995.

23 Let's first look at page 7 in the English, because, here, we only

24 have signatures. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you give us the 65 ter number of the document,

Page 9075

1 please, Mr. Stojanovic.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's the same number,

3 65 ter 10158. Thank you.

4 Q. Now, in this report, there's something different stated, and

5 there's a different opinion expressed. And they say that the direction

6 from which the projectile came corresponds to the azimuth of

7 250 plus/minus 10 degrees, and that was established on the

8 22nd of June, 1995, during an on-site investigation.

9 Now my question is this: Do you have any recollection of that

10 azimuth value of the projectile, according to what you found out at the

11 scene, was 270 west, as stated in the forensic report, or 250,

12 plus/minus 10, as written here in this report?

13 A. I see what it is stated in this report in front of me. Yesterday

14 also I said what I can remember from other report that I have never seen

15 afterwards, and I referred to my statement on -- from the 10th -- from

16 2010, October 2010. And, as far as I know, we agreed that the projectile

17 was coming from west.

18 Q. Can we please now look at Exhibit P992, paragraph 44. That's

19 this witness's statement.

20 Among other things, you say in this paragraph the following:

21 "At the place of impact, we were unable to decide where the

22 modified air bomb had come from. What I'm trying to say is that we were

23 unable to establish the point of origin of the modified air bomb."

24 My question is: Does this refresh your memory; and during the

25 investigation were you able, at any point, to establish an accurate

Page 9076

1 direction from which the air -- modified air bomb arrived?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, would you, in your question, please

3 make a clear distinction between the direction of origin and the origin

4 of the projectile. That is two -- are two different things. So,

5 therefore, for the witness to say, Does this refresh your memory, when

6 you're talking about something different, doesn't assist.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. So can you tell us now, in more precise term, if your memory is

10 better after looking at these documents, why did you have a problem in

11 deciding the origin of this projectile?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Again, origin is from which location it is fired,

13 Mr. Stojanovic. Direction of origin is from which direction it flew in

14 when -- before impact.

15 You can't just deal with the two as if they were the same. And I

16 tried to explain that to you after your last question, but you may not

17 have understood.

18 So please, first, think about your next question, and then put it

19 to the witness.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I know the

21 difference. I was just using the terminology from paragraph 44 drafted

22 by this witness. And I asked him to explain why he said:

23 "We were not able to decide where it had come from."

24 What were they not able to decide?

25 JUDGE ORIE: The point of origin, as is clearly explained in the

Page 9077

1 statement, what we now have. The witness has testified today it came

2 from the west. We have one report which says 270 degrees azimuth which

3 is perfectly west. Then we have another report which says 250 plus or

4 minus 10 which is almost west.

5 Now, please, put the next question such that the Chamber is

6 assisted by the information you are eliciting from this witness. And

7 don't start explaining again. Please follow the guidance.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please, then, look at

9 65 ter document 10158, page 11. It's a map.

10 Thank you. Can we please zoom in the middle part of the map, to

11 the right where the point of landing of this projectile is marked,

12 according to the report.

13 Q. Can you, on the basis of this map, confirm whether, according to

14 what you established, the location was precisely plotted in the map with

15 regard to the direction from which the shell came, which is, as

16 explained, this blackened horizontal line leading towards Stup?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- if you give the Chamber a map, if you have a

18 place plotted, it's not very clear here, but I think I've -- the problem

19 is a bit that everything is black and white. But let's just assume that

20 we have found the plotted place. Then to draw lines at 270 degrees,

21 every child in the second year of primary school could do it, and,

22 therefore, please trust that the Chamber is able to do it as well.

23 I mean, 270 degrees is 270 degrees. 250 degrees is 250 degrees.

24 It's -- please put questions to the witness which can assist the Chamber.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9078

1 Q. Sir, do you agree, by looking at this map, that the area of

2 Rajlovac, a part which is also from the west from the place where the

3 shell landed?

4 JUDGE ORIE: First, do you find the place, Rajlovac?

5 THE WITNESS: I don't see exactly the name Rajlovac. I never

6 seen this map before, and the point where the impact is, it can be fairly

7 correct, and I only remember from our investigation that we stated it was

8 coming from west.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

10 Now, Mr. Stojanovic, you apparently you find Rajlovac. No one --

11 at least the witness has not found it yet.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

13 please look at the central part of the map, and you'll find it in the

14 upper central part, the name Rajlovac.

15 Q. And, sir, you mentioned it in your statement as well.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have a -- I -- I -- we see it -- if you

17 could, please, Witness, have a look, Rajlovac at the very top of the map,

18 approximately in the middle, to the right of what seems to be a bending

19 road. Have you found it?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, I found it. And I know where Rajlovac railway

21 station it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the point of impact, it's not entirely

23 clear. Is that Alipasino Polje, that area, Mr. -- the marking is not

24 very clear. Could you also ... yes.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 9079

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just for my understanding, Mr. Stojanovic,

2 from approximately the place where the impact is marked, it's very

3 difficult to see on this map, but Rajlovac where it is written, seems to

4 be approximately at -- well, north -- north-west. If it is west, then

5 you have to provide me with better maps, because from what I can see now,

6 it seems to be north-west.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Which is at 315 azimuth.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we agree that it's

10 north-west. And also that it's 250 plus/minus 10. When we received this

11 map --

12 JUDGE ORIE: I do not -- I do not agree with that. North-west is

13 not 250 plus or minus 10. 250 is south -- slightly south of west, and

14 coming close from the south to westerly direction. What I see here is,

15 rather, north-west, which is ...

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's a translation

17 issue. I said 290.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, north-west, Mr. Stojanovic, is not 290. As I

19 just said, it's 315; because the difference between 270 and 360 is

20 90 degrees, so you have to add 45 to 270 to arrive at north-west.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Can we look at 65 ter document 10158, page 28, and page 27 in the

23 English version.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9080

1 Q. Sir, this is a statement taken from one of the eye-witnesses of

2 the flight and the impact of the shell. In this statement, the witness

3 says that at one point he heard a buzzing sound coming from the direction

4 of Ahatovici and Rajlovac. Shortly after that, he heard a loud

5 detonation as a result of the explosion on Geteova Street, number 12, and

6 wounded the witness.

7 All I'm asking you now is: After you have seen these documents,

8 do you allow for a possibility that this shell had came from

9 northwesterly direction? Whereas, we say that it came from the direction

10 of Brijesce Brdo?

11 A. Again, I have never seen this part of the document, and I'm not

12 sure of the time. It's dated 1715, the 22nd of June. And I'm not sure

13 this is the same impact that we are talking about. Because, as far as I

14 remember, it could be -- it was earlier when we investigated. But I'm

15 not sure.

16 But I can -- directly to the question, I can't answer. I -- I

17 don't have any information that can -- that I can confirm this.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am going to

20 offer document 65 ter 10158 to be entered into evidence as a Defence

21 exhibit.

22 MR. SHIN: No objections, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10158 receives number D240,

25 Your Honours.

Page 9081

1 JUDGE ORIE: D240 is admitted into evidence.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. And I will finish with the questions relating to your observation

4 of the overflight of the shell that hit the RTV building on the

5 22nd June 1995. That's paragraph 52 of your statement. And let me put a

6 very brief question to you.

7 Would we be right if we say that you saw the flight of this

8 projectile going over the PTT building and landed by hitting the RTV

9 building?

10 A. That day I was -- I was in the morning I was in the observation

11 post, OP-4, and we observed the projectile with a smoke-tail. And

12 afterwards, we registrated an impact in the TV building. If it was

13 directly across the PTT building, or close to or near it, it's difficult

14 to me to -- to recognise now, but it looks like it did, yes.

15 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now have 1D796 in

17 e-court. It's a statement of an observer called Thomas Hansen.

18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at page 3,

20 where the witness, who, according to his own words, was there with

21 another observer in the vicinity of the TV building says:

22 "I was informed by an UNMO who had seen the shelling of the TV

23 building that this particular bomb that impacted the TV building was

24 fired from the BiH side. Another UNMO who heard the bomb told me that

25 the bomb only flew for a short period, so that fitted with the findings

Page 9082

1 of the first UNMO that the bomb was fired from the BH-held territory."

2 Then he goes on to say that he sent his report about this events

3 to his superiors by secure means.

4 Q. I'm asking you this: Can you tell the Chamber from which

5 position was this modified bomb, as you call it, was fired?

6 A. Your Honour, I have never seen this report during my time in --

7 in Bosnia. I was shown it first here. I think it was in 2010. And it's

8 difficult for me to discuss another UNMO's observations about it. I'm

9 only sure what I was observing from my observation post, but --

10 Observation Post 4.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could I just briefly go back to

12 the -- the previous issue we dealt with and which led to some confusion

13 among the Judges.

14 You showed us a black and white map saying that the point of

15 impact has been marked there. Who marked that? Where does that document

16 come from? It may be that I missed something, but ... you remember, the

17 black and white --

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, if I may, just

19 one moment. We'll respond straight away, and then, with your leave,

20 we'll return to this one. 10158 would be the document number. And could

21 I please have page 10 of that document; 10158 and page 10 of this

22 document.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Why -- it was not clear to me that it was part

24 of a -- of a -- of a broader document.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 9083

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, yes.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

3 Q. I shall go back to the question that I've already put to you.

4 Sir, after having seen this statement of Mr. Hansen's -- and

5 could we please have that in e-court once again; that is, document 1D796,

6 page 3 of the document.

7 Could you tell me the following: When you say that this modified

8 bomb came from the direction of Ilidza, could you tell us what the

9 distance of the firing point was from the RTV building?

10 A. I can't remember the -- the exact distance between the Ilidza

11 area and the TV building, so I -- I need a map with a certain scale to --

12 to figure it out.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I

14 would like to tender this document, and then I shall also be tendering

15 the map of the area.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.

17 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours, we would object because this is a

18 statement and that -- neither comports with the requirements under 92 bis

19 or 92 ter. Furthermore, the passage that has been cited refers to

20 another unnamed UNMO. This -- this is perhaps a matter the Defence can

21 take up later.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic. First issue is whether this is a

23 statement which was -- is unfit to be admitted, in view of Rules 92 bis,

24 92 ter. Could you first respond to that.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a statement

Page 9084

1 that was given to us by the Prosecution. It was obtained by the

2 Prosecution. It was signed by the witness who gave it, and all the

3 cautions are there on page 4. And this statement was used in the

4 Milosevic case. It was in evidence.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the case law of this Tribunal is

6 that if you want to have admitted into evidence a statement of a witness

7 which was taken for the purposes of this Tribunal, that you then need the

8 attestations, as Rule 92 bis and 92 ter require. Where are the

9 attestations?

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have the

11 statement in the form in which it was given to us.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Attestations, it means if you disclose a document,

13 it doesn't mean that it is already fit to be admitted into evidence. We

14 have, I take it, hundred, if not thousands of statements, but only if you

15 want to introduce them into evidence, you need the attestations by the

16 witness taken by an officer assigned for these purposes or by any other

17 authorised person. These are the Rules of this Tribunal.

18 Therefore, that it comes from the Prosecution doesn't seem to be

19 an answer. That it is a statement doesn't seem to be an answer to my

20 question either. Do you have any attestation? If not, you have to

21 consider whether there are ways to have this document admitted into

22 evidence, if you think it to be important.

23 Admission is denied.

24 Please proceed.

25 Admission is denied. Please proceed.

Page 9085

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. We don't have

2 any different statement. We took --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, first of all, the decision has

4 already been taken, so if you want to further think about it, you can do

5 it whenever it pleases you to do so.

6 Second - but that's another matter - the question you put to this

7 witness was totally useless. Why is it, because it is stated here only

8 fired from Ilidza, which is a -- well, not a huge area, but at least it

9 does not give much clue of where exactly it came from. And therefore to

10 say, What is the distance from here to the area of Belgium. That is also

11 a question. One answer could be 600 kilometres. Another answer could be

12 150 kilometres, depending on where you are in Belgium.

13 Your question came down to the same. Therefore, the question

14 didn't assist us, and the decision has been taken that not through this

15 witness, in this way, you can have this document admitted.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Then I

18 shall conclude my cross-examination of this witness for today.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

20 Mr. Shin, is there any need for re-examination?

21 MR. SHIN: Yes, just very quickly. Perhaps five minutes, a

22 little bit more.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. Well, forget about a little bit more

24 and think about the five-minutes.

25 MR. SHIN: Yes.

Page 9096

1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

3 I'm not addressing you at this moment, Mr. Karagic.

4 But I'm addressing you. Can you now hear me? Yes. Yes. Thank

5 you. Your role is limited to giving the witness comfortable feeling to

6 be in this court, knowing that you are nearby, and that you hear and see

7 everything that happens in this courtroom. Your role is not to intervene

8 in any way. That is clear to you, I see. You're nodding.

9 Mr. Traldi, are you ready?

10 MR. TRALDI: [Microphone not activated]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karagic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Traldi.

12 Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution and you will find him to your

13 right.

14 Examination by Mr. Traldi:

15 Q. Good morning, sir. Could you state your name for the record.

16 A. Nermin Karagic.

17 Q. And I understand this morning you've chosen to testify publicly.

18 If there's any particular topic you wish we go into private for, would

19 you inform us and inform the Chamber.

20 And, sir, if you say your answers out loud, it will be best for

21 the record.

22 A. Yes. It's clear, I understand.

23 Q. Then I'd ask the Court Officer to call 65 ter 28480 to our

24 screens. And, sir, do you recall testifying before this Tribunal before,

25 in the Stakic trial?

Page 9097

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And did you review the transcript of your testimony in that

3 previous trial, in preparation to testify today, and in a language that

4 you understand?

5 A. Yes, I read it in its entirety. And I also listened to the audio

6 recording and read a hard copy as well.

7 Q. And now that you have sworn to tell the truth today, do you

8 affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of your previous testimony?

9 A. I can confirm.

10 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd tendered 65 ter 28480 into

11 evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

12 MR. LUKIC: No objections.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28480 receives number P998,

15 Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: P998 is admitted into evidence.

17 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, there are two associated

18 exhibits: 65 ter 13124 and 13172. 65 ter 13124 and 13172, both of which

19 I'd tendered at this time.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic. No objections.

21 Madam Registrar.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 13124 receives number P999, and document

23 13172 receives number P1000.

24 JUDGE ORIE: P999 and P1000 are admitted into evidence.

25 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'll now briefly summarise the

Page 9098

1 witness's evidence for the public.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Have you explained to the witness the purpose of

3 this?

4 MR. TRALDI:

5 Q. And, sir, you understand that this is not evidence, simply a

6 summary for the benefit of the public?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do.

8 MR. TRALDI: And I apologise to the court reporter because of

9 this morning's proceedings. They don't have a copy so I'll try to be

10 very, very slow.

11 Nermin Karagic survived massacres at Ljubija stadium and Kipe

12 mine charged at schedules A 6.7 and A 6.8 of the indictment. And that

13 completes the public summary.

14 And I will have a few brief questions about the witness's

15 evidence now.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

17 MR. TRALDI:

18 Q. Sir, before we discuss what happened in 1992 I want to address

19 one ancillary matter. Were you arrested for driving under the influence

20 of alcohol in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1999?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And were you convicted of that as well?

23 A. Yes, I was, although I was not drunk.

24 Q. And -- and were you injured when you were arrested?

25 A. Yes, I was beaten up.

Page 9099

1 Q. And did you first tell the Office of the Prosecutor about that in

2 October of last year, 2012?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And, finally, in this respect, you just affirmed that you told

5 the truth in your previous testimony. Do you intend to do so again

6 today?

7 A. Yes, I will do so.

8 Q. Now I want to take you back to the summer of 1992. And on page 7

9 of Exhibit P998, you talk about going into hiding after the attack on

10 Hambarine. When did you first go into hide, if you remember?

11 A. I think that it's -- started at that time, that that was when I

12 started going into hiding.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be kind enough to move closer

14 to the mike. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you come a bit closer to the microphone. The

16 interpreters have difficulties in hearing you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that it started at the

18 time when Hambarine was attacked, when I started hiding. Although, even

19 before that, I didn't dare go to town because I was tried -- I was trying

20 to evade being served call-up papers.

21 MR. TRALDI:

22 Q. And on page 9 of P998 you talk about trying with a group of

23 people to go to the free territory. Was that in July of 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that 65 ter 16502 be called to

Page 9100

1 our screens. It is a report dated 18 July 1992.

2 Q. And, sir, you talk about being captured when you tried to go to

3 the free territory. This document is dated 18 July 1992 and on page 2,

4 in both the English and B/C/S, it says that as of July 1992, there was no

5 large-scale combat between Serb forces and forces fighting against them.

6 I have only one focussed question about this. Were you aware of

7 any large-scale combat between the Serb army and Muslim forces in

8 Prijedor municipality around the time you were captured?

9 A. Yes, yes, I heard shells falling down on the day before I was

10 sent to Ljubija -- or, actually, it was on the same day. People were

11 calling each other, let's go into fighting, explosions were heard, and

12 then we were collected at that place and sent away to Ljubija.

13 Q. I have two questions about your answer. First, when you say yes,

14 you were aware of combat, were you aware of shelling by Serb forces, or

15 were you aware of combat between Serb forces that were fighting and

16 Muslim forces that were fighting against them?

17 A. Well, I am not aware of there being any Muslim forces. I just

18 heard the shells, and I heard them calling each other to go into combat.

19 But we didn't have any forces. Perhaps there may have been a small group

20 or two.

21 Q. And when you say -- my second question. When you say "I heard

22 them," did you hear Serbs calling each other to go into combat?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. And by this time, had people in your area of the Brdo region

25 already surrendered their weapons?

Page 9101

1 A. Well, yes.

2 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd tender 65 ter 16502 as the next

3 public Prosecution exhibit.

4 MR. LUKIC: I didn't see that anything was asked from this

5 document. There were no questions to the witness from the document.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.

7 MR. TRALDI: And I asked the witness specifically about whether

8 he could confirm material on page 2 of both the English and the B/C/S.

9 The Chamber has expressed a preference to have witnesses contextualise

10 documents and his comments are able to do that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you object against it having bar tabled

12 in the context of the testimony of this witness, Mr. Lukic?

13 MR. LUKIC: If it is bar table then we'll deal with it but --

14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking you now whether you would have any

15 objection against it being bar tabled.

16 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

18 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... with this witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

20 MR. LUKIC: He has nothing -- he has no knowledge about the

21 document.

22 JUDGE ORIE: What -- I think the situation we find ourselves in

23 often is that a witness testifies about events which are described or are

24 dealt with in documents, even if the witness is not -- if he cannot

25 testify about the document, that, under those circumstances, we would not

Page 9102

1 wait with bar tabling the document but, since there is some connection,

2 to consider a document to be admitted from the bar table, which means not

3 through the witness. So, therefore, I did not fully understand your last

4 objection.

5 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if it is bar tabled, I said we will deal

6 with the document through the bar table response. But we object to have

7 this document introduced through this witness.

8 JUDGE ORIE: My question now is whether since this deals directly

9 with portions of the evidence of the witness whether you would oppose

10 against, I would say, an advanced bar table request for admission at this

11 moment in relation to this document.

12 MR. LUKIC: We have to see the bar table motion, Your Honour, to

13 be able to respond to it.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well ...

15 Mr. Traldi, is the way in which you tendered the document

16 important for you, or is it through the witness or bar tabled.

17 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd be happy to make an oral

18 application now to tender the document from the bar table if it would

19 suit the Chamber.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we will consider the matter during the next

21 break. Madam Registrar, the document would be MFI'd under number ...

22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 16502 receives P1001, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.

24 Witness, don't be confused by all this. These are legal matters.

25 We'll now continue to hear your testimony.

Page 9103

1 Mr. Traldi.

2 MR. TRALDI:

3 Q. Sir, I want to take you forward now to after you were captured

4 and taken to Miska Glava Dom. I have just a few very specific questions

5 about that.

6 First, at pages 19 and 20 of P998, you talk about a Serb asking

7 for ten volunteers from Rizvanovici to come out. And you tried to

8 volunteer. My question is: What did you expect to happen?

9 A. Well, they said what would happen to them in advance. While I

10 was in the doorway, I heard about the way that they would be eliminated.

11 They said that they were going to gouge their eyes out. That's what I

12 heard from one man. And, also, from another two men from Visegrad,

13 Cazin, a father and two sons were in our area, and also another guy who

14 fled from the JNA happened to be there, and I met him immediately before

15 that.

16 Q. And so am I right to understand your answer that you expected to

17 be eliminated?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And, next, sir, do you know of any detainees who stayed behind at

20 Miska Glava Dom when you were taken away on the buses to Ljubija stadium?

21 A. I was closer to the door, so I wasn't in a position to know

22 whether there were any people left behind.

23 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honour, I'd ask that the Court Officer

24 called 65 ter 27910 to our screens.

25 Q. Sir, this document describes energetic action taken in the

Page 9104

1 Ljubija area in late July 1992 by the Serb army, and I want to explore

2 what that meant in practice. First, after you, your father, and the

3 other people in your group were captured, did you see soldiers in the

4 Serb army?

5 A. I'm sorry, soldiers? Can you please repeat the question. I

6 didn't hear you properly.

7 Q. Sure. After you were captured and before you escaped at Kipe,

8 did you see soldiers in the Serb army?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you mentioned specifically, on page 24 of P998, that the

11 6th Krajina Brigade was in Ljubija. When did you first hear about them?

12 A. I heard about them at Miska Glava.

13 Q. And from who?

14 A. From those who kept us in captivity. The guards said, The

15 6th Krajina is coming.

16 Q. And where else did you see soldiers after you were captured?

17 A. After that incident? Well, in Rakovcani and Rizvanovici where

18 they recaptured me.

19 Q. Between when you were captured and when you escaped, did you see

20 soldiers in Ljubija town?

21 A. Yes. Didn't we say that? Yes, I saw them. Streets were crowded

22 with soldiers.

23 Q. And did you see soldiers at the stadium?

24 A. Some tried to enter the stadium, but those drove [indiscernible]

25 away. They often started arguing because some of the soldiers wanted to

Page 9105

1 participate in what was going to happen to us in the future. But these

2 men managed to chase them away and did it on their own.

3 Q. And at pages 28 and 32 of P998, you mentioned a major who was

4 present at the stadium. Did he appear to be in charge?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd ask that 65 ter 27910 be

7 admitted into evidence as the next public Prosecution exhibit.

8 MR. LUKIC: We object. Again, on the same grounds.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Same grounds. Document will be MFI'd.

10 Madam Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 27910 receives number P1002,

12 Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: P1002 is marked for identification.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. TRALDI:

16 Q. And, sir, while we're discussing the stadium, I'm going to ask

17 you only one very specific questions: Of the other Muslims detained at

18 the stadium were any of them wearing military uniforms or were they all

19 in civilian clothes?

20 A. They were all in civilian clothes.

21 Q. And you mentioned at page 48 of P998 that after you escaped from

22 the bus, you met two Croats from Brisevo who showed you the way towards

23 Carakovo. Did you later learn the name of either of those men?

24 A. Yes, I did. I was told that there was a man called Ivan. But

25 when I was here in hotel, when I testified last time, that is when I met

Page 9106

1 this Ivan, and I realised that it was the same person.

2 Q. And did you learn what his name was?

3 A. Yes. I didn't know his full name, but when he told me where he

4 was born, I immediately established a connection. He couldn't believe

5 that it was me and that I was so grown up now. I must have been little

6 at the time.

7 Q. And who -- who was that? What was the name you learned.

8 A. Mr. Iva [as interpreted] Atlija.

9 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I would ask that 65 ter 28748 be

10 called to our screens. This is a chart of comments offered by

11 Witness RM045 regarding particular names read to him in preparation for

12 his testimony. We gave notice on Tuesday morning that we would be using

13 such a chart in our e-mail. Mr. Groome is, I think, prepared to make

14 larger submissions regarding the issue, if the Chamber wishes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first hear whether there's any objection

16 against the use of the chart.

17 Mr. Lukic.

18 MR. LUKIC: I don't have it with my documents. At all.

19 MR. TRALDI: I do have a copy which I can provide to Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: Please.

21 MR. TRALDI: And I'd just note while looking at it the witness

22 made a hand sign a moment ago and may have been asking for a break, and

23 the Chamber could perhaps inquire in that respect.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Witness, what was it that you wanted to tell

25 us?

Page 9107

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I just noticed here that

2 it's written "Iva Atlija," and the proper spelling would be "Ivo Atlija."

3 I apologise.

4 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's appreciated that you are focussed.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we have that document on the screen.

6 MR. TRALDI: And, again, that's 28748. And I'd just ask that it

7 be called to all of our screens. And this was provided to the Defence

8 and the Chamber by e-mail at 4.31 p.m. yesterday. I think we're awaiting

9 Mr. Lukic's position at the moment.

10 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.

11 MR. LUKIC: We really need more time to go through the document.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it was disclosed to you on Tuesday, I do

13 understand?

14 MR. LUKIC: Yesterday.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, there are two issues, Mr. Lukic. The one

16 is whether we could continue and use the chart at this moment. And the

17 second is whether you would need more time to see whether you want to ask

18 further questions about the substance of the chart.

19 The first question, I think, is the urgent one to be dealt with.

20 MR. LUKIC: I think it would take too much of our time to go

21 through the document like this. Then this is a practice that saves time

22 for the Prosecution, but puts additional burden on the Defence,

23 especially time-wise.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If you need more time, then asked for it. I mean,

25 the question is: Do you oppose against a chart being used, or do you

Page 9108

1 want this to be elicited in full in viva voce testimony or --

2 MR. LUKIC: We would prefer if witness can testify about these

3 issues in -- viva voce.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Your objection against the use of the chart is

6 denied. Mr. Lukic, if you need further time at any point in time the

7 Chamber would like to hear from you.

8 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

9 MR. TRALDI:

10 Q. And, sir, in preparation for your testimony here, did you review

11 this list of names?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. And do the columns reflect comments you made regarding each

14 person?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Did you review the document after you'd made comments?

17 A. Yes, I did. And I signed it.

18 Q. And is that your signature on the left-hand side at the bottom?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. And were you satisfied that your comments were recorded

21 correctly?

22 A. Hopefully I was. Yes, I was.

23 Q. And one of these men at number 2, Hare Crljenkovic, you say was

24 executed right before your turn would have come. Why did you think you

25 were about to be executed?

Page 9109

1 A. I don't think I saw anyone else after him. Maybe there were only

2 two men standing against the wall, and Hare was on my right next to the

3 wall.

4 Q. And did anyone say anything, then, that you remembered?

5 A. Yes. While the four or five of them, I just happened to look and

6 I saw him being killed by rifle-butts and -- I don't know. I remember

7 that while he was dying, he said, You, motherfuckers. But I know that he

8 couldn't move and I knew that they wanted to finish us off too, but they

9 asked us whether we would be willing instead to carry the dead bodies and

10 that is what we did. We took them and loaded them onto a bus.

11 MR. TRALDI: And I'll postpone tendering this chart until after

12 cross-examination.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you like it to be marked for

14 identification so that we now ...

15 MR. TRALDI: I think that would be best, Your Honour, yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28748 receives number P1003

18 Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: P1002 is marked for identification.

20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ORIE: I made a mistake. It's P1003 is marked for

22 identification.

23 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that 65 ter 26287 be called to our

24 screens.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

Page 9110

1 MR. TRALDI:

2 Q. And, sir, while that is being called up, at page 4 of what is now

3 P1003, you say Mustafa Karagic was taken out of Miska Glava Dom and was

4 never seen again. This document lists Mustafa Karagic as having died on

5 25 July 1992 in Miska Glava. Is it accurate, as far as you know?

6 A. Maybe he's precisely the person that was killed in front of the

7 door. It resembles his voice too. When those ten volunteers -- I mean,

8 those mentioned persons from Visegrad and Cazin. That's when I heard the

9 scream right in front of the door.

10 Q. And --

11 A. I think that that's where he died. It resembles his voice most

12 of all.

13 Q. And, sir, then is this document, which says he died at that time

14 in Miska Glava, accurate, as far as you know?

15 A. Well, I know he was taken out and I know they closed the door

16 behind them. I haven't seen this. But I heard screams in front of the

17 door and I heard this sound ...

18 Q. Did you ever see him alive again after that?

19 A. No, no. Never. Never.

20 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 26287 as the next

21 public [Microphone not activated] Prosecution exhibit.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, any objection against admission of the

23 death certificate?

24 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

Page 9111

1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 26287 receives number P1004,

2 Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: P1004 is admitted.

4 MR. TRALDI:

5 Q. And, sir, in your testimony, now P998, you describe your capture,

6 your mistreatment at Miska Glava Dom and the massacres in Ljubija stadium

7 in Kipe that you survived. How did these events impact you?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters, please.

9 Thank you very much.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was hard for me. My marriage

11 was doomed. I have been having nightmares all these years.

12 MR. TRALDI:

13 Q. And do they continue to impact you today?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. And thank you, sir.

16 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, that completes my examination.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

18 Mr. Lukic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?

19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I am, Your Honours. Just one minute to organise

20 myself.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karagic, you will now be cross-examined by

22 Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Karagic.

25 A. Good day.

Page 9112

1 Q. Did you do your regular military service?

2 A. In the JNA? No. No, I received call-up papers, and I refused to

3 go to the army.

4 Q. Just a moment, please.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the following on

6 our screens: 2848. I assume that it is now P998.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: P998 is 28480.

8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I probably mispronounced them.

9 [Interpretation] We need page 32.

10 Q. This is the Stakic testimony that the Prosecution tendered as

11 your statement. 5235 is the transcript page. Line 6, you provide the

12 following explanation:

13 [In English] "... he was a member of a military police. I had

14 served in the army, so I know."

15 A. I was in the BH army, if that's what you mean. But, until then,

16 I had not known. Now I know it's a military policeman.

17 Q. [Interpretation] All right. Where did you have an opportunity of

18 seeing a military policemen in the BH army?

19 A. In Travnik.

20 Q. What kind of shoulder straps did they have there, and belts?

21 A. Well, white.

22 Q. Now I'd like to ask you something. We had some information here

23 that had to do with your date of birth. Can you tell us when you were

24 born?

25 A. The 28th of September, 1974.

Page 9113

1 JUDGE ORIE: Invite you to make short pauses between question and

2 answer and answer and question so that the interpreters can follow us.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. You heard the Judge. Since we speak the same language, we will

6 have to pause between question and answer.

7 A. I forgot about that too.

8 Q. You say that you were in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Where

9 and when were you a member of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. As soon as I reached Travnik, free territory that is, I was there

11 for about a month, a month and a half, then I went to Croatia. And then

12 I spent some time there at the refugee centre; about a year and a half.

13 Then I went to Germany. And then I was there for a year. And then I

14 returned to the BH army. And that's when I had military training too.

15 Q. All right. Now we are going to deal with some specific

16 incidents. First, Hambarine briefly.

17 You were not present when that happened at the check-point in

18 Hambarine. However, I'd like to ask you whether you heard who it was

19 that attacked who in Hambarine.

20 A. Well, what I heard is quite different from what you claim. I

21 mean, I read reports, and that's why I'm saying. Also, on that day, the

22 very same moment, I heard about that, perhaps a few moments later only.

23 Somebody ran up from there and this information was provided. I can't

24 remember exactly what was said, but if I understood it correctly these

25 young men were attacked on the road, whereas your side claims -- well, I

Page 9114

1 cannot say. I cannot say either this or that. But I mean, whatever I

2 was told was -- well, it so turns out that it was the other side that

3 attacked.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, there's no need to refer to what you think

5 the other party may claim. Just tell us what you have seen and what you

6 have observed and whether --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I get lost.

8 I get carried away. I mean, you know, this tragedy, because of that,

9 because of this tragedy.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although we may understand that, we'd invite

11 you very much to focus on what you've seen, what you know, and whether

12 that's consistent with others think they may have seen or may know is a

13 matter you should not be too concerned about.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. Did you hear that among the injured members of the

17 Army of Republika Srpska there were Croats too?

18 A. No, I didn't hear about that. I just know that there was this

19 Sikeric [phoen] in Hambarine and that he ended up in the hospital in

20 Prijedor. I don't know.

21 Q. All right. As for the attack on Hambarine, did tanks

22 participate?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How many tanks were there?

25 A. Well, I don't know. I don't know how many tanks there were. I

Page 9115

1 saw one. That's what I can remember. But what was -- well, I don't

2 know.

3 Q. All right. Let us please see 1D812 briefly in e-court. We need

4 page 2 in both versions because we need paragraph 2.

5 This is the statement that you gave to the OTP in 1998. In

6 paragraph 2, you claim that three tanks took part in the attack. Can you

7 state your views on that?

8 A. Well, you see, I gave statements, but I don't remember having

9 said that. I don't know. I don't know that I said that. As far as I

10 can remember, I just saw one tank. But how many there were actually, I

11 don't know.

12 Q. Thank you. In this same paragraph, you say:

13 "They took Hambarine within three hours. There was no one there

14 to put up resistance."

15 A. Well, relatively quickly. Yeah, they took it relatively quickly.

16 Q. So was there any resistance?

17 A. I cannot say. I mean, I hid. I hid. Because that was the first

18 time that I heard shells. It was the first time in my life that I heard

19 this terrible thing. I was shaking for a long time after that.

20 Q. Do you know how many armed men there were in Hambarine, armed

21 Muslims?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Do you know that eight days after this fighting an attack was

24 launched on the town of Prijedor from Hambarine?

25 A. I know that for a long time shells could be heard at Kozarac,

Page 9116

1 immediately, on the next day.

2 Now, as far as Prijedor is concerned, they say the 30th of May.

3 I heard shells there too, but I heard shells all the time in Kozarac too.

4 So, well, I mean, I was not there personally. I just heard this --

5 Q. Just tell us what it is that you know.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you personally take part in standing guard at check-points?

8 A. Yes. At a check-point.

9 Q. All right. A check-point.

10 A. One, not more.

11 Q. All of that happened before you underwent any kind of military

12 training; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Later, you say that you returned from Germany and joined the

15 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What kind of training did you undergo there?

18 A. Fitness, handling automatic rifles. Then I was in charge of some

19 kind of mortar. I mean, that's the only thing I know. This lasted,

20 like, three months. Or was it two months? I really cannot remember.

21 Q. Did you have any kind of targeting practice?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. And in what unit were you?

24 A. [No interpretation]

25 Q. Do you remember?

Page 9117

1 A. It's called the 37th Muslim Unit.

2 Q. And where was it stationed?

3 A. In Travnik.

4 Q. How did you travel from Germany to Travnik?

5 A. Via Mostar.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber is a bit lost as far as the

7 relevance of this last series of questions is concerned. So either come

8 to the point which shows the relevance or move on.

9 MR. LUKIC: I actually finished this line of questions. Thank

10 you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we still do not understand the relevance.

12 Mr. Mladic, you are supposed to remain seated. Mr. Mladic,

13 remain seated. You can consult with counsel. Remain seated, please.

14 [Defence counsel confer]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Remain seated, I said.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, will you take care that Mr. Mladic always

18 has his earphones in. The standing up in court is something the Chamber

19 does not accept. He can consult; short notice. You know how it works.

20 But remain seated.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. [Interpretation] You set out with a group towards Bihac. Now

24 we're moving ahead in terms of time.

25 How many people were moving along? How many people were trying

Page 9118

1 to break through to Bihac?

2 A. Before -- well, I don't know. I just said 300. It was sort of a

3 free estimate. I don't know exactly how many of us there were.

4 Q. And where was it that you assembled before you started this

5 breakthrough?

6 A. I think Bukvik Suma. I think that's what it's called.

7 Q. Do you know where the forest of Kurevo is?

8 A. Somewhere near Carakovo, yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock. I think it's

10 approximately time to take a break.

11 Again, if -- the follow-up questions, still, it's not clear what

12 the relevance of that is. But please -- and if you want to ask these

13 questions, come to the point you want to make as quickly as possible so

14 that the Chamber also is able to understand what it is about.

15 Mr. Karagic, we'll take a break, and you'll first be escorted out

16 of the courtroom. We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

17 THE WITNESS: Hvala.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at five minutes past 12.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.46 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I can just briefly inform you that

Page 9119

1 over the break, Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Shin met. They have agreed on a

2 map. We are in a process of creating that map, and as soon as it is

3 available in e-court, we will tender it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is appreciated.

5 Mr. Lukic, could you give us any indication as to whether you

6 think, in view of how the cross-examination develops, that we could

7 conclude the evidence of this witness today so that we would know whether

8 we should be here tomorrow morning at 9.30?

9 MR. LUKIC: I'll do my best to finish him today so we don't have

10 to come tomorrow.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes. We are here anyhow. It's ... and we are

12 always willing to hear whatever evidence we are requested to hear.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 [The witness takes the stand]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome back. Mr. Lukic will now continue -- yes.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before we begin, while I was

17 sitting there, I just remembered what the lawyer asked me. He was

18 talking about the tanks and the attack on Hambarine and the three hours

19 that it took for capture. I could not possibly see any tank at the

20 moment when that was happening. It was on the day before when the

21 check-point was attacked, so I have a kind of mix-up with this regard,

22 and I felt the need to notify you of that.

23 I was in the lower part of the village running towards the

24 check-point when they attacked Hambarine. Therefore, I could not have

25 seen any tanks, and I don't know how I could have mentioned tanks at all,

Page 9120

1 so I felt it -- it's my duty to tell you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

3 Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Q. Can we continue?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. We talked about your group that was on the move, but just before

8 we start with the capture, let's make a kind of introduction first.

9 We said that there were armed people in the group. Were those

10 armed men in uniform or were they in civilian clothes too?

11 A. Before the capture, one of the men took off his uniform. The

12 rest were in civilian clothes.

13 Q. You were moving, and you could hear that somebody was issuing an

14 order, Halt, halt, don't run away; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, it is. And he was shooting at the same time.

16 Q. And the group scattered; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. And after that, you were taken prisoner.

19 A. Well, not exactly immediately after that. But perhaps one or two

20 hours later, we were captured. And that is when I saw this man taking

21 off his uniform. I even hadn't noticed any rifles before, although it is

22 in the statement that I read.

23 Q. Well, can you remember today whether any of the men in the group

24 was armed?

25 A. When we were captured?

Page 9121

1 Q. No, before you were captured.

2 A. Well, five minutes before we were taken prisoner, I saw four

3 rifles. And I saw this man taking off his uniform. But not before that.

4 I didn't see it.

5 Q. Thank you. What kind of uniforms -- were the people who took you

6 prisoner?

7 A. Olive-drab-green and the uniform of reserve police forces. Kind

8 of blue coats. That was the civilian police.

9 Q. And when you were captured, where did they take you to?

10 A. We were first searched. We had to take everything out of our

11 pockets. One of them fired into the air, maybe to intimidate us and keep

12 us calm.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last one he

14 said about someone being slaughtered.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The guard who was standing in front

16 of me opened fire, and I remember that somebody grabbed the barrel and

17 pointed it into the air. But the one who did this knew these people. I

18 think that they all knew each other. Some of them even said, Fuck it,

19 it's a war.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. First, you were taken to Miska Glava?

22 A. No. We were first taken to a meadow where we were assembled.

23 And somebody threw a stone at us. And then, in the meantime, a van

24 arrived, and it took us to Miska Glava in several batches.

25 Q. How many people could be accommodated in the van?

Page 9122

1 A. I don't know. We were packed, as many as possible. It -- it was

2 not according to the standard.

3 Q. Now you arrived at Miska Glava.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. At the Dom.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what kind of uniforms did you see there?

8 A. Olive-drab-green.

9 Q. Did you see people in reserve police uniforms?

10 A. Not that I know of.

11 Q. Let me just refresh your memory by looking at the transcript

12 tendered by the Prosecution.

13 We need P998 in e-court, page 17 in the English. We did not

14 operate with the B/C/S version at all because we were not aware of there

15 being one.

16 You were asked by the Prosecutor - for the record that's

17 page 5219 from the Stakic transcript:

18 [In English] "Were there people in uniforms? Could you tell who

19 they were or what units they were from?"

20 And your answer was.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: What line are you reading?

22 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, 16 and further.

23 Q. And your answer was:

24 "I think it was the Miska Glava Territorial Defence, and they

25 were wearing JNA uniforms. I didn't see any other kind of uniforms in

Page 9123

1 that place, although at the place where we were taken prisoner, there

2 were also reserve police uniforms."

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. [Interpretation] So at the place where you were detained, men

5 were dressed in reserve police uniforms.

6 A. Yes, as far as I can remember. What do you mean, military

7 police?

8 Q. Reserve police officers.

9 A. Are you talking about the meadow where we were captured or --

10 what are you talking about?

11 Q. I read it out to you where you said that, at that place where we

12 were incarcerated, there were men in reserve police uniforms.

13 A. Well, it's -- it seems that we're talking about the Dom --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Mr. Lukic, it was translated to us your

15 question as incarcerated which seems to refer to a detention situation.

16 Could we clearly distinguish between --

17 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But also in such a way that witness is not

19 confused. In this transcript the witness refers to reserve police

20 uniforms at the location where he was taken --

21 MR. LUKIC: Prisoner.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- prisoner. Yes. And that is not where he was

23 incarcerated but where he was taken prisoner. Incarceration follows once

24 you have been taken prisoner, taken to a place and then that may be a

25 different place and that may have been, for example, the Miska Glava --

Page 9124

1 the Miska Glava Dom.

2 So could we clearly distinguish between the two.

3 Please proceed. I leave it in your hands.

4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Karagic, do you remember now you were

6 imprisoned in Miska Glava Dom. Around the Dom, did you see that a

7 delegation arrived in light brown uniforms?

8 A. It is possible. Yes, there was a delegation. Now whether they

9 were dressed in uniforms, but it was that colour.

10 Q. Light brown?

11 A. Well, probably. It's been 20 years. But I think it's more like

12 coffee brown.

13 Q. You also saw, but that was at the stadium later, Becir Stojan who

14 was dressed in black; is that correct?

15 A. I think it was him. Whether it was him --

16 Q. Yes, but anyway you saw a man --

17 A. Yes, I saw a man on the bus also dressed in black. But that was

18 another person. And this one with a beard resembles most Stojan Becir.

19 I happened to see his picture in the "Blic" or in another newspaper when

20 he was arrested, so I put two and two together, and he also had a cross

21 around his neck so it must have been him.

22 Q. He had a beard?

23 A. Yes, a well-trim beard.

24 Q. From the Miska Glava Dom, where were you taken to?

25 A. From the Dom?

Page 9125

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. We were taken to the stadium.

3 Q. In Ljubija?

4 A. Yes.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please pause between

6 questions and answers.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could I again ask you, Witness, to make a short

8 pause between question and answer. Yes.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I have forgotten again

10 that this needs to be interpreted.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You're not the only one who forgets now and then.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. [Interpretation] The stadium is situated between Gornja Ljubija

15 and Donja Ljubija; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And this is where you were lined up. How did that happen?

18 A. While we were passing through Ljubija, when I saw the army there,

19 a man in black uniform came in, and he asked about people with my last

20 name, and I remember my father telling me to keep quiet. One of the guys

21 wanted to say, Now, what do you want? And he started slapping him across

22 the face or kicking him. And then at the very entrance to the stadium

23 when we reached it, we got off, running, and people were waiting for us.

24 There was a bus driver with a moustache and he was beating us. So when I

25 arrived there, it seemed to me that there had been people there before we

Page 9126

1 arrived. There were many of us, so they made two lines along the wall

2 the -- the length of the stadium. But I don't know how many people there

3 were exactly.

4 Q. Did they put -- put you in two lines or in four lines?

5 A. If I remember correctly, two lines.

6 Q. Can we briefly see one portion ...

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the last part

8 of the question.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you're invited to repeat the last part of

10 your question.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at document 1D182 [as

12 interpreted]. It's the witness's statement given the Prosecution on the

13 10th of November, 1998.

14 We need paragraph 5. It's page 3 in both versions.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it's 1D812.

16 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Lawyer. Does my

18 statement say that I said four lines?

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. I don't believe I ever said that, just like about the thing a

22 while ago.

23 Q. In the middle of this paragraph, it says -- so what you think

24 that what you stated at the time that you were lined up in four lines

25 that is not correct?

Page 9127

1 A. I don't believe I ever said that.

2 Q. Very well. And, now, in front of the stadium where you were

3 lined up, what kind of uniforms did you observe there?

4 A. At the moment, all I can remember is this major in an olive-drab

5 uniform. Maybe with a white belt. Maybe his uniform was with a pattern.

6 I cannot confirm. I don't know. The one who was addressed as Vojvoda,

7 who I think it was actually Stojan Becir, that he was in civilian

8 clothes. He was in black anyway, but whether it was civilian clothes or

9 not, I don't know. And whether it was Stojan Becir or not, all I can say

10 is I presume it was him.

11 Q. All right. Did you see a policeman there?

12 A. Well, I believe the one with the white belt was supposed to be

13 some kind of military policeman; right?

14 Q. All right. A moment ago you mentioned something and I'd like to

15 go back to that now.

16 Actually, we'll go back in time. When you were taken prisoner in

17 this forest was called it Kalajevo or Kurevo?

18 A. Kalajevo. You mean where we were taken prisoner?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I don't know. Kalajevo, and then we were running, running, and

21 now where we were when we were taken prisoner, I don't know.

22 Q. All right. But just before that, I was just wondering whether it

23 was Kurevo?

24 A. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, to this day I don't know

25 what belongs to Kurevo. I know that they called this Kalajevo where we

Page 9128

1 were taken this rest. Now where we ran, I know that we crossed some road

2 and whatever and I don't know how much time went by as we were running.

3 I don't know.

4 Q. You also say that they found something on a man -- or rather, in

5 this man's pocket, or did he throw this out of his pocket?

6 A. A little pistol. He threw it out of his pocket as if it had been

7 handmade and also a knife, and then they wanted to slit the throat of --

8 well. But anyway, he started running away and I've already said --

9 Q. All right. You've already said that. In one statement, you

10 mention a penknife and in another statement you mention a small pistol.

11 Today you're saying both.

12 A. Who said anything different?

13 Q. We're going to look at this briefly now. 1D --

14 A. You know, you know, I mean, I never really said what the man had

15 in his pocket. I said what was on the pile. Now whether it belonged to

16 the same man, I don't know. I know there was some pistol and this

17 penknife, knife, whatever you call it. Well, it was small anyway.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not catch the last

19 sentence.

20 THE WITNESS: He wanted to slit his throat.

21 JUDGE ORIE: One second. The interpreters did not catch the last

22 part.

23 You said, "I know there was some" --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I'm so sorry.

25 JUDGE ORIE: No. You said:

Page 9129

1 "I know there was some pistol and this penknife, knife, whatever

2 you call it ... it was small anyway."

3 What did you then add after you said, "It was small anyway"?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I said that I never claimed

5 that it was in his pocket that it was found in his pocket. It was in

6 front of us. Us as a group. Not in somebody's pocket.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

9 Q. [Interpretation] In Miska Glava, where was it that you were

10 actually detained?

11 A. Well, it was a sort of coffee bar.

12 Q. Was it within this Dom?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When you came to the Dom, did they write down your names?

15 A. Yes. Now was it immediately or -- no. I think it was during the

16 night.

17 Q. And did they give you water in Miska Glava?

18 A. Yes. I've already said that. It's already stated there. Well,

19 there was this old man, a nice old man -- well, he was good. He was

20 nice. He gave us water when we were there with him. And afterwards, at

21 day break, the old man was no longer there. Then it was bad, because we

22 had to sing in order to get water, whatever, and then when we'd go out,

23 we'd get beaten up, and if somebody went out to piss, take a piss - I'm

24 sorry for using this kind of word - also we were sort of afraid to go

25 out. I went out to urinate. They didn't mistreat me. But they sure did

Page 9130

1 mistreat some other people.

2 Q. Now, about this water, did anybody urinate into that water before

3 it was given to you?

4 A. No. No. No -- well, maybe. I don't know. But we drank it. I

5 mean, even if somebody had urinated it, maybe we would have had it

6 anyway. We were so thirsty. The temperature was unbearable in there. I

7 mean, I really don't know how come we didn't suffocate.

8 Q. In your statement of the 10th of November, 1995, in paragraph 5,

9 1D812, you said we had to sing in order to get water but they had

10 urinated into the water that we drank.

11 A. Well, that's what was written down. They wrote that down.

12 Q. But when you testified in the Stakic case, on page 5220, you said

13 that you did not see anyone urinating there. You said that this was just

14 theoretical. And even if someone had urinated into the water you were so

15 thirsty that you would have had it any way.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So it's not true that someone urinated into that water?

18 A. I cannot assert --

19 Q. What, that somebody did or did not urinate into that water?

20 A. I cannot say that that is correct. I'm saying that even if

21 someone had done that, we would have had that water nevertheless because

22 we were so thirty.

23 Q. But you did not see anyone doing that.

24 A. Oh, no. No way, I did not see anyone doing that.

25 Now that you've asked me this I have to say something. During

Page 9131

1 those three days we got some bread and these little chocolate balls

2 that's the only thing that we had to eat, now that we're on the subject.

3 Q. In Miska Glava was somebody's name called out? Was somebody

4 taken out? Was somebody killed?

5 A. Many names were called out. Among them, my father. I knew most

6 of them, these men who were being taken out. Most of them by sight.

7 Q. In your statement from the 10th of November, 1998, you do not

8 mention that anybody's names were called out in Miska Glava?

9 A. No, that's not the way I had put it. I'm surprised by all these

10 contradictions. I know how many people were taken out and beaten up and

11 never returned. I even know when two men went from this group to bury

12 someone. Now who it was, I don't know. But I mean, I'd just know about

13 this man whose lungs sort of went dead. So there were dead people there

14 too, and they buried someone there by the Dom, since these men went to

15 bury someone. But who it was, I don't know. And I also do not know how

16 many such cases there were.

17 Q. So when you arrived in the stadium in Ljubija, did you see some

18 people who had already arrived there before you or, rather, you spoke

19 about that a moment ago?

20 A. Where?

21 Q. Before the stadium in Ljubija.

22 A. Well, yes, I had the impression that there were people there when

23 we arrived. When you see lots of people, the stadium is so long, yes.

24 And over there, in Miska Glava, there were already less, so people were

25 taken in this group; apart from those who had been killed individually.

Page 9132

1 Q. These men who were standing around you, did they bring someone to

2 point out who it was from your group that had weapons?

3 A. Could you please repeat the question.

4 Q. You were in Ljubija?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You were lined up in front of the stadium?

7 A. By the wall.

8 Q. Yes. Now these people with weapons --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Serbs?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did they bring some other people to show which people from

13 amongst you had been armed?

14 A. Well, they pointed out this young man and then this young man

15 pointed at someone else, and that's how it was.

16 No, no, no. No. Who was with him somewhere. Not who was armed

17 from amongst us. Now where, was it Kurevo, I don't know. No. Oh,

18 sorry, Lawyer. Can I just go and you know?

19 Q. We'll take a break.

20 A. Well, just five minutes. My bladder is weak.

21 Q. Just a moment, please. We have to ask the Trial Chamber.

22 Your Honours, may we take a break now?

23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break. The witness can leave the

24 courtroom first and then ...

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 9133

1 JUDGE ORIE: As matters stand now, Mr. Traldi, how much time you

2 think you'll need for re-examination, if any at all?

3 MR. TRALDI: Thus far, very little, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if we would resume at 1.00, do you think

5 that ... again, it's [Overlapping speakers]

6 MR. LUKIC: Depending on the witness. If he has to make a

7 brief --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it's not only depending on the witness,

9 as you are aware of. Focussed questioning.

10 We resume at 1.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

14 Meanwhile, the Chamber has decided about P1001 and P1002 and has

15 decided that it is appropriate to admit them at this stage of the

16 proceedings.

17 Therefore, P1001 and P1002 are now in evidence.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Any specific reason why we have to wait -- no, no.

20 Okay.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23 [The witness takes the stand]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 9134

1 Q. Can we proceed?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. In the Stakic transcript, on page P233, lines 20 and 21, we need

4 page 30 in e-court of this transcript.

5 You said that you did not know whether a Croat or Muslim had been

6 brought in, one who had been caught in the forest, and he was supposed to

7 point out the persons who were with him in the forest. And then he

8 pointed out two persons, Ismet Avdic and Ferid Kadiric or Kadic?

9 A. No, Ferid Kadic.

10 Q. You said Ferid Kadiric or Kadic.

11 A. No way. I did not say that. It can be Ermin Kadic but not

12 Fikret or Ferid.

13 Q. Ismet Avdic, Ferid Kadiric. Now we can find this down here in

14 lines 19 through 25. That's what was recorded in this transcript.

15 You're saying today -- actually, do you know who Ferid Kadiric or Kadic

16 is?

17 A. Kadiric I should know if we're talking about the first person who

18 was killed in the stadium. If that's the person we're talking about. I

19 should know him, there are two Ferid Kadirics.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. One went into the same class as I did.

22 Q. Who pointed at weapons?

23 A. He didn't point at anything. And this other one, I don't know.

24 This other Ferid was already by the fence if that's Ferid.

25 Q. What about Ismet Avdic?

Page 9135

1 A. Ismet Avdic, yes.

2 Q. 1D807. Could that be displayed please. That's the statement

3 that you gave on the 11th of November 1992.

4 A. In Zagreb.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Kindly mention the names

6 of people slowly. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

8 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Everyone is invited to give names of persons slowly.

10 It's a request on the interpreters.

11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think I would -- no, we are. Now it's better. I

13 think my voice was -- I tried to activate my microphone but there was

14 wrong. Interpreters have asked everyone to slowly mention names of

15 persons.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. In your statement here, the one from Zagreb, around the middle of

19 the page in B/C/S, and on top of the page in the English version, it

20 starts from the second line. You say that he brought Avdic, Ismet;

21 Kadiric, Ferid; and another person to show the persons who had weapons.

22 They indicated 25 persons?

23 A. I could not have stated that. I could not have stated that in

24 such form, especially not Ferid Kadiric. I couldn't have mentioned him

25 there.

Page 9136

1 Q. Did you have an impression that the official in Zagreb who was

2 taking your statement know -- knew the persons that you were talking

3 about?

4 A. No. But I know that they came to the refugee centre to look for

5 me, but I didn't dare stay there any longer. Because of the conflict

6 between the Muslims and Croats, I didn't want to take a chance of being

7 surrendered to the other side. That's why I wanted to go to Germany as

8 soon as possible.

9 Q. Would you --

10 A. Well, he treated me well. Let's be clear on that. But I'm not

11 sure that I could have put it in that form.

12 Q. He could not have written down the name of Ferid Kadiric because

13 he didn't know him, unless it wasn't you who mentioned that. Would you

14 agree with me?

15 A. I don't understand your question.

16 Q. The official who took the statement, you say that he didn't know

17 the people you were talking about.

18 A. I suppose he wasn't able to know them.

19 Q. That's why I said, unless you mentioned the name of

20 Ferid Kadiric, he wouldn't have noted it down.

21 A. I don't know why I mentioned it. And if I did, that was many

22 years ago. It may have been the case.

23 Q. Just a moment, please.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Once again, short pause between question and answer

25 and between answer and question.

Page 9137

1 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 We now need 1D808 in e-court, please. This is, again, a

4 statement given in Zagreb two months later on the 11th of January, 1993.

5 We need, B/C/S, page 3, and English, page 4. In the B/C/S, it's

6 very at the bottom of the page, and in the English, the very top of the

7 page.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, let go back to this.

9 How it was possible for me to say how many people? I was dead frightened

10 and I couldn't have been counting people --

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Let us just proceed. I'm sorry.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please instruct Mr. Mladic to refrain from

14 loud laughter during the testimony of the witness. It will have

15 consequences, as he is aware of and we will not wait for very long.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. Here, you say:

19 "Three traitors attended the questioning."

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just tell us where are you reading, Mr. Lukic,

21 please. You said top. Three traitors. What line?

22 MR. LUKIC: The very top. The first line. Actually, it starts

23 from the second line. Ismet Avdic and further on.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, the statement that says "three translators."

25 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, if I might assist. I think in the

Page 9138

1 English the word that appears is informers and it's on the third line.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, please, if you allow me.

3 Allow me, please.

4 I see a couple of things here already. Without his reasoning,

5 that -- I don't know. Really, I would discard this. I don't know.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was mention of hats and

8 things of that nature. I don't recall that at all.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, wait -- wait quietly. The only thing we

10 did is the Judges wanted to find the place from where Mr. Lukic was

11 reading. Wait until Mr. Lukic has read what he intends to read, and then

12 he'll put some questions to you, and then you will have an opportunity to

13 say whether you agree or disagree or at least to answer those questions.

14 So just remain quietly, wait for the questions to come, and let

15 Mr. Lukic read first.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. So did you mention Ismet Avdic, Ferid Kadiric and another man

18 from Carakovo as traitors who betrayed the people who had arms, they were

19 wealthy people and member of the SDA?

20 A. In that respect it is possible. But again you are mentioning

21 Ferid Kadiric and again you are leading me to say that they were

22 traitors. I cannot say that any of them was a traitor.

23 Q. I'm reading what's been noted down.

24 A. I had opportunity to read even worse things. Therefore I could

25 kindly ask the Judge not to have this read because I never said them.

Page 9139

1 Q. Could we now have 1D809.

2 A. Either I don't remember or I really don't understand.

3 Q. This is your statement given on the 2nd of May, 1995. B/C/S

4 version, page 3, very top of the page; and English page 4, fourth line

5 from the top.

6 And the sentence begins with the word, "They then ...":

7 "They then singled out three Bosniaks: Avdic, who used to work

8 in a cafe, Ferid Kadiric, and a man from Carakovo, and they were ordered

9 to say who participated in an attempt to free Prijedor and those were

10 members of the Territorial Defence. Do you remember saying that?

11 A. No, I don't, if you are asking me about the weapons and whether

12 he was with someone. But as for everything else I discard that

13 completely.

14 Q. According to you, who recorded erroneously what you said on four

15 occasions?

16 A. Which statement are you talking about? Is it the Zagreb

17 statement?

18 Q. The statement of the 2nd of May, 1995. Official is Zijad Ibric.

19 A. Judge, I can tell you immediately with regard to this statement

20 and knowing what happened to me later I already was sure that there were

21 some games being played because I signed a lot of things on blank pieces

22 of paper on the assumption that something would be added later. So

23 please bear that in mind when we are discussing these things.

24 Q. Very well. Just briefly, it says here that the witness --

25 statement was given to SJB Prijedor, MUP of Banja Luka. However, it was

Page 9140

1 given in Travnik?

2 A. Yes. The Travnik CSB.

3 Q. Very well. Now something about how you managed to flee from the

4 bus.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How many of you were in the group that remained behind before you

7 jumped out of the bus?

8 A. How many of us remained? Where? On the bus?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. As far as I reckon, not more than five. Do you want me to

11 describe the event?

12 Q. It's not necessary. We have it in your statement.

13 A. Very well.

14 Q. So were there five of you? You said that was not more than five.

15 Was it three? How many?

16 A. I don't know what you are trying to get with this, but I'm going

17 to describe the event again, and that's how we will come up with the

18 number.

19 So, when they said the next three, I got up. Somebody -- but

20 what happened during those few seconds, I don't know. I couldn't see

21 everything. All I know is that the one who was taking people out, the

22 driver, was lying on the floor. That Nino from Biscani was lying on to

23 of him holding his rifle. At the same time a window on the left-hand

24 side was broken, and according to some stories later, the one who jumped

25 throughout the window was kill immediately.

Page 9141

1 This is when I turned away to look at the man who was lying on

2 top of the other, and then I see somebody else. A Serb soldier who is

3 pulling the one on top by the legs. At that moment, I went to the window

4 and the one, the guard who was standing there, didn't have any bullets.

5 He was changing his clip. When I jumped out, I went on running. I fell

6 into a hole. I saw three men running past. I didn't know who they were.

7 Only later did I find out who that was.

8 Now, you are asking me to say three, five. One was already

9 killed. Which have two there. We have another one lying on top of the

10 driver. So that's five all together.

11 Q. What is the time of the day when you jumped out of the bus?

12 A. It was moonlight. It was night.

13 Q. And you spent the night where?

14 A. Perhaps 150 metres from the place where the shooting took place.

15 Q. How many -- how -- how long did you stay there?

16 A. I got up before the break of dawn, and I started walking

17 cautiously. I passed by some tires, I was terribly frightened and I

18 thought that I was too visible because I heard some noise from the

19 forest, so I took off my shoes but my feet were too white so I covered

20 them. And, that I came out and said, shoot me. And that is the moment

21 when I came across the two Croats who told me that everybody from their

22 village had been killed two days before that and that they were looking

23 for women and children.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber needs a break of more likely

25 no more than two or three minutes.

Page 9142

1 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom to start with.

2 We will resume, and it will be a very short break.

3 [The witness stands down]

4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Everybody is expected to remain stand-by. And ...

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Most likely we're back in two or three minutes.

8 --- Break taken at 1.26 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 1.30 p.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

11 The urgent matter the Chamber unfortunately had to deal with

12 is -- has been dealt with by now.

13 [The witness takes the stand]

14 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Karagic, the place where you were hiding, did you fall

17 asleep, did you lost consciousness?

18 A. Everything could have happened. I remember that I woke up in the

19 morning, and I was cold.

20 Q. So you left there towards Rakovcani?

21 A. I said that I saw these two Croats, and they told me to go

22 towards Carakovo because I was not familiar with that ground because I

23 had never been in the forest earlier so I didn't know. And I went in the

24 direction of Carakovo. But before that, many things happened.

25 Q. Who did you meet on the way? A man who was attending cattle; is

Page 9143

1 that correct?

2 A. It is possible. It was an elderly man. He gave me something to

3 eat. Oh, wait. Are you talking about when I was arrested?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Oh. There was an old man -- do I have to say his name?

6 Q. We have it in the statement.

7 A. Yes. Is it Avdic?

8 Q. Avdo Dzambastagic. Because you mentioned two Avdos, Avdo and

9 Avdo Dzambastagic. Avdo Avdic and Avdo Dzambastagic.

10 A. That was Avdo Dzambastagic. Somebody wrote it wrongly. He was

11 sitting there and tending cows.

12 Q. And then a uniformed person with a beard came and arrested you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then another man in the reserve police uniform came.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And they arrested you there. So what happened next?

17 A. They took me, I think I was put in a car. They were speaking

18 about fuel while they were outside, and I thought that that could give me

19 a chance to escape. They took me out of the car and put me on a tractor.

20 Q. How much fuel did you tell them you had?

21 A. I don't know that I said how much fuel I had. I only said I have

22 fuel at that moment. Or at least I think so.

23 Well, and, Lawyer, yes, I did have fuel. But I sincerely wanted

24 to bring them to the fuel but my real intention was to escape. So when

25 they took me to my house, we were building a large storage for fruit and

Page 9144

1 vegetables, and some of it is still preserved below the ground and what

2 is above the ground is derelict. And I think that there were blocks

3 prepared for further building, and fuel was inside. And that occurred to

4 me when I told them I had fuel. However, when -- we came there, somebody

5 had already found the fuel. I don't know how, but it was gone. So I

6 took them behind the stable because I had another hiding place, and I

7 found a barrel with 20 litres of fuel. I wanted to flee then, but this

8 man was guarding me at gun point.

9 Q. Did you ever talk to these people about the quantities of oil

10 that you could give them?

11 A. Uh-huh, later. I don't know whether it was exactly those people.

12 I know that when I was burying the dead in Rizvanovici, that -- now how

13 did that happen?

14 I think that I thought that I could buy my own life back by

15 giving fuel. I know when this guy hit me, well, first with some piece of

16 wood. I mean, somebody had found -- I don't know how to say this. It

17 was a big piece of wood, and he hit me with that, and I said, How much is

18 my life worth? And he said, 5.000 litres of fuel. And I said, Well, I

19 have 200. I just happened to remember that my uncle had some buried

20 somewhere. I have no idea. But this just sort of happened to go through

21 my head, and, yeah. Well, possibly. Possibly. When -- when -- when he

22 already had that stake that he wanted to impale me on and he said, Fuck

23 you. Why didn't you tell me immediately? And he wanted to hit me and I

24 caught this in the air. I don't know. I don't know. Whether he got me

25 or I got him, out of fear, I mean, I would never let go. Never let go.

Page 9145

1 I was hoping that the commander would help. So I called the commander.

2 I said, Commander, commander, so that he would help me --

3 Q. So did he help you? Did anyone help?

4 A. I think so, yes --

5 Q. Was somebody lying there on you, pretending to beat you but was

6 actually protecting you?

7 A. Yes. And later on, I think that he let me -- well, I don't know.

8 I'm not glad to be saying this, because of this man. In fact he saved me

9 from that soldier who wanted to impale me on that stake. But now did he

10 have the intention of helping me? He did do it though. He was playing

11 with this knife walking up to me, and he sort of fell. And that moment I

12 was fleeing and he had nothing to trip over. I mean, it was just a

13 clearing, a meadow. I think that he fell on purpose, to give me the

14 chance to run away. Well, that would be it. I know that I was supposed

15 to bury six others before I ran away. Well ...

16 Q. On that occasion, did someone fire at you?

17 A. As I ran to the brook, I just heard something fly by me, and I

18 saw later on that it was a grenade that exploded. I thought that it had

19 blown away my ear and I was holding onto my ear and I was also wounded by

20 it, here.

21 Now I don't know whether there's any shrapnel left anywhere. I

22 don't know.

23 Q. You're showing your hand. The wound -- your hand or head?

24 A. Here, here. I thought that it had fallen off but it was just

25 grazed, here. But it was sort of -- they weren't shooting then. I

Page 9146

1 think. I think. They just fired and then later on I'd find out -- I

2 mean, I didn't have experience with this military stuff. I mean, you

3 know the thing that they call drunken Ustashas, you know. It's like a

4 rifle grenade, sort of something that's round and then you put a grenade

5 there and then, well, it was with that that they fired this grenade. I

6 saw that soldier, but I didn't know what this was used for.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D812. Could we briefly take a look

8 at that now, please. We need page 5.

9 Q. This is your statement of the 10th of November, 1998.

10 We need paragraph 15. Page 5, both versions.

11 This is what you say here in the English version. It is the

12 sixth line from the top.

13 A. I've read that before you did. So this text is correct.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Wait for the question to be put.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But I've

16 read the entire paragraph so I know what's written there so I wanted to

17 tell him straight away that that's the way it was --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Just wait for the question. That is what we expect

19 you to do.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. This is what is written here:

22 "A Serb fired at me and I thought I was dead but he only hit my

23 shirt, not me."

24 A. Correct as I was burying those two, he was playing with me,

25 shooting at me before he went to get the stake sharpened for impaling me.

Page 9147

1 Q. It wasn't before the escape.

2 A. No, no, it was before we started wrestling. Is that the word you

3 use, wrestling? At any rate, we were both holding that and... yes.

4 Q. And when were you asked whether you were hungry and did they

5 offer you any food?

6 A. They did.

7 Q. Where did they take you?

8 A. To the Bosna cafe.

9 Q. And they gave you something to eat there?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I don't understand in terms of time when this happened. I mean,

12 in relation to this preparing the stake and holding onto it.

13 A. Perhaps an hour or two later.

14 Q. After you were holding the stake and wrestling?

15 A. No. First, I mean, remember that paragraph? That's where it's

16 written. All of it. Before that, they took me to the cafe. I mean,

17 first, the thing with the belt. And then I ended up at the cafe. And

18 then in the cafe I was questioned by this commander. And I had to -- I

19 address him as the commander of Serbian Biscani, Rakovcani, and as I

20 spoke to him, he put a pile of IDs in front of me. I really didn't know

21 any of these people. I just recognised the waiter. Out of all of these

22 IDs that were there. And they all come from my village. But there you

23 go. I didn't know them.

24 Q. All right.

25 A. And then this man was sort of poking at me with his knife. They

Page 9148

1 offered me a cigarette. However, since this guy was sort of poking me

2 with that knife, I sort of said I couldn't. Whereas this guy said, Fuck

3 you, eat. And then well, that would be it. And then I said -- now what

4 was this that I said?

5 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Wait for --

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I do apologise. We really have to move on because our time is

8 limited. We're trying to finish today so that you don't have to come

9 back tomorrow. So I will just have a few more questions.

10 After that this one is pretending to beat you, and then you are

11 haggling over the stake, and now where -- where did you arrive after

12 that, when you were fleeing from these people?

13 A. I know that I first ran into a thicket and then I lay there, and

14 then they ran by me, ran by me. Then they went further on to look for

15 me, and I went in the opposite direction. In fact, I was going through

16 the open -- I mean, there were these raspberries that were planted in

17 rows and then there was some kind of path that was open, and I saw this

18 path and I managed to squeeze through. It was short of like a path. You

19 know how thicket is when you are moving through raspberries. At any

20 rate, I managed to escape, they were looking for me in the forest, and I

21 was running in the opposite direction.

22 Now where did I arrive? I arrived in Rika. That's what we call

23 it. There was this little house. And I walked into that house and I

24 kept holding my ear, right? And then I entered that house, and -- and,

25 sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Since they called me Green Beret, I found a

Page 9149

1 green -- a -- a green sheet and I thought, Oh, fuck, they're going to

2 kill me now. And I found this knife. And then I took it with me. And

3 then the third time when they noticed me I wanted to kill myself with

4 that very same knife. At any rate I did not want to be caught alive.

5 Q. That time, when you hid, did you ever pass out as you were

6 running? Did you ever hit your head?

7 A. Well, yes, there. But not here.

8 Q. Kipe is when you jumped out of the bus?

9 A. Well, when I ran, that's where I passed out, if I did pass out.

10 I just know that I woke up in the morning.

11 Well, look, for a few days we hadn't slept. Now we were there

12 for how many days and we did not really sleep when they were taken

13 prisoner. I don't think that anybody felt like sleeping.

14 Q. Were you ever hiding in a tree?

15 A. A tree? I don't think so.

16 Q. You don't remember that?

17 A. I don't remember that. I know I was underneath a tree. I had

18 this hole dug there, and I know that I hid there for quite a few days.

19 Q. All right. Let us briefly take a look at transcript ...

20 actually, the Stakic transcript. We need page 65. In e-court.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: P998.

22 MR. LUKIC: And I need a page number. Thanks.

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. This is what you say here. Yes. 5268; that's the page number

Page 9150

1 from the Stakic transcript. I'm going to read it out in English so that

2 you get the right interpretation. From line 16 onwards:

3 [In English] "There was slope there, and I took out the cord off

4 my shorts, which I then tied to a tree there. And I tied myself to the

5 tree so that they wouldn't see me. I was hanging upside down, actually,

6 and they were not very far from me."

7 A. It is correct. It is correct. I've already told you that. I

8 wanted to kill myself then. I was holding the knife -- the knife and I

9 took the cord out of those Hawaii short, whatever you call them, and then

10 tied it to the fence. How could I tie it to the tree? And then on one

11 side there were cows and on the other side were leaves. And they passed

12 by me and they went to look for me further. Now where this thing,

13 hanging upside down came from, I really have no idea. And then I was

14 holding this knife --

15 Q. [Interpretation] So you did not say that you were hanging upside

16 down with your head down?

17 A. No. How could I do that? I don't know how come that's there.

18 Q. Again, you joined this group of people who were supposed to go to

19 Travnik; is that right? And that's were you found your brother; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Some of these people were armed as well, when you found them;

22 right?

23 A. Yes. Two of them.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly repeat his last

25 answer, please. Thank you.

Page 9151

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your last answer.

2 You were asked:

3 "Some of these people were armed as well, when you found them;

4 right?"

5 And then the answer which is recorded was:

6 "Yes. Two of them."

7 Did you say anything further or was that your answer?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's all.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Now let us briefly go back to what you said. You said that you

12 signed these empty sheets of paper?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where was it that you signed these empty sheets of paper, in

15 Zagreb?

16 A. The CSB Banja Luka.

17 Q. That was in Travnik?

18 A. Zagreb, I don't remember what happened there. I don't remember.

19 But I know that I gave a statement and -- I don't know. I don't think

20 that such -- I don't know. I don't think I said such things.

21 Q. Very briefly. You were in Germany. And you came from Germany

22 via Mostar, as you said, to Travnik?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you come with a group of fighters?

25 A. No.