130411IT

Page 9642

1 helicopter overflight video we saw, 65 ter 22313A, into evidence.

2 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Madam Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22313A receives number P1128,

4 Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

6 Please proceed.

7 Could you please repeat --

8 THE REGISTRAR: The number was P1128.

9 JUDGE ORIE: P1128 is admitted into evidence.

10 Please proceed.

11 WITNESS: JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]

12 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

13 Q. And we will continue with your chronology of photos and exhibits.

14 If we go to e-court page 20. It's where we left off, and it's exhibit

15 number 28756. And this is in your chapter entitled: "Srebrenica town."

16 It's page 2 in the -- in the book -- in your book, Mr. Ruez, but you'll

17 see it on the screen.

18 Now, we can -- some of these, as you know, are more

19 self-explanatory than others and so we can go through them. And that's

20 page 20 in e-court. We can go through them with your comments. Some

21 will obviously be more than others.

22 This first shot?

23 A. This first shot is only a still photograph showing the arrival

24 when coming from Zeleni Jadar and on the first hill overlooking

25 Srebrenica town.

Page 9643

1 Q. Let's go to 21 in e-court, the next page, page 3 in the book.

2 A. And this view is also a still picture so -- of a better quality,

3 showing the centre of the town.

4 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. This is a map graphic.

5 A. So this one is -- indicates one of the two courses of action that

6 the population -- yeah, the population inside the enclave took on

7 11 July. Since during the previous days most of the people had assembled

8 around the Bravo Company in Srebrenica town, on 11 July, once it was

9 realised that UN air-strikes that were supposed to stop the attack were a

10 failure, the decision was made for these men who decided to flee to take

11 the direction of the north of the enclave and assemble together in an

12 area of a village named Susnjari which is circled with the green dots.

13 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. And this?

14 A. This is the second movement, the second option that the

15 population took. So all the women, the children, the elderly, but also

16 an amount of men who did not want to try to escape through the forest

17 decided to move from Srebrenica town and find shelter in and around the

18 UN base, the main base, which was in Potocari, approximately 5 kilometres

19 north of Srebrenica town.

20 Q. And we see a grey perimeter going around Srebrenica with yellow

21 dots and letters. Can you just briefly explain what that is.

22 A. These dots mark the positions of the UN observation posts which

23 were positioned on the so-called border of the enclave but there was no

24 borders at this enclave. It's rough positions of -- of the enclave.

25 Q. All right. Let's go on to the next page which you refer to as

Page 9644

1 Potocari. And we now have an aerial image. Can you briefly explain

2 where we got this aerial image. And we see yellow markings and we see

3 black and white printing in blocks. Could you explain, as you can, what

4 this means?

5 A. Yes. These -- these are aerial pictures. This one as well as

6 the other ones in the book were provided by the US State Department. All

7 markings on these pictures in white are the markings originally made by

8 the provider, in this case, overview Potocari, Bosnia and Herzegovina, as

9 well as the date, 13 July 1995. This markings were initially on the

10 picture. The yellow markings are markings that I added to the picture in

11 order to pin-point the main structures witnesses refer to when it comes

12 to describe the situation in Potocari during the 12 and the 13 July 1995.

13 Q. All right. And we -- we see the -- the yellow markings. You

14 made those personally?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. And the Court has heard about the UN base and the White House so

17 I don't think we need you to mention those at this point. The other

18 places that you have marked, what was the significance of the others, the

19 express bus compound, the other buildings?

20 A. When the people arrived in Potocari in the evening of the 11,

21 where they spent also the 12, the night between the 12 and the 13, since

22 the evacuation was totally finished the 13, the people found shelter for

23 some of them inside the UN base, but once this base was full they had to

24 find shelter elsewhere. So they found shelter mainly in the express bus

25 compound facility, the zinc factory and the Energoinvest, otherwise

Page 9645

1 called the 11 of March factory. So the witnesses, most of them refer to

2 these buildings. But others were also spending the night outside or in

3 houses but as close as possible always to the UN base.

4 Q. All right. And were you yourself on the ground in Potocari at

5 various times during the investigation?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question.

9 Overview Potocari, is up south or is up north?

10 THE WITNESS: This one is direction south.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 THE WITNESS: In fact, I showed each time precise what is the

13 direction of the photograph because sometimes, indeed, it is south rather

14 than north. This one is looking --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 THE WITNESS: -- towards the south.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's say, common is to have north at the top --

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes --

19 JUDGE ORIE: -- but on this page it's just the opposite.

20 THE WITNESS: Reversed, absolutely right.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY:

23 Q. So if we could go to page 25 in e-court and this is a -- what is

24 this?

25 A. So this one is -- shows more or less the same things than the

Page 9646

1 other one but this one is looking in the good direction; that is, north.

2 And you can easily now recognise not only the UN base, have another

3 assessment of the distance between the UN base and the White House, but

4 also see that the factories we were talking about are in a very close

5 perimeter. At the right of the White House, you have the -- the express

6 bus compound. And then you have also the zinc factory with the blue

7 roof. And a bit above it, bottom left of the zinc factory you have the

8 11th of March factory.

9 The interest of this one is also -- when you look at the circle

10 around the White House, the line at the bottom of the circle positions

11 also where was the separation line where the UN soldiers were positioned,

12 the Bosnian Serb soldiers were positioned. The people went through this

13 line at that location and that's where the separation process took place.

14 Women and children, elderly put aside, and -- and in buses, and the men

15 taken to the White House. It's where the big tree -- the big tree just

16 at the bottom of the White House.

17 Q. All right.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I do encourage Your Honours, I know you will

19 ask questions, because we will try to move this along because you have

20 seen evidence already on some of this, as you know.

21 Q. Let go to the next -- the next page, 26 in e-court. We see snow

22 on the ground. Tell us what this is about.

23 A. This picture was taken end of January 1996. It was the first

24 opportunity for me to access to the territory of the Republika Srpska.

25 Thanks to a visit that was made there by Mr. John Shattuck, who was

Page 9647

1 under-secretary of state for human rights and who wanted to go to

2 Republika Srpska, to Nova Kasaba, in order to show that there was freedom

3 of movement implemented since the Dayton Agreements. So there were press

4 waiting there. But we left from Belgrade for this mission, and

5 Mr. Shattuck accepted, in fact, to transform the mission as a kind of

6 fact-finding mission for me and a colleague who was with me so that we

7 could visit a few sites we absolutely wanted to -- to locate and use this

8 opportunity. So we could go to the -- the school of Orahovac. We could

9 go to the soccer field at Nova Kasaba. We could stop at Glogova and

10 could also have this stop in Potocari, so this is why there is snow on

11 the ground in this location.

12 Q. What is this on page 26 in e-court, page 8 in your book?

13 A. So this is one of the most important structure in Potocari since

14 it is the house where the men who were separated from the others were

15 taken to, and from this house, once the house was full, the men were

16 taken on board of buses and driven to Bratunac. This house was visited

17 by UN military observer, Major Kingori, who, when he was interviewed,

18 claimed that on this spot he was present with General Mladic.

19 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page.

20 A. This is another view of -- of the house. This witness I referred

21 to said that this house was totally full. People were compressed inside,

22 and it was so full that some were even also on the balcony. We had

23 access to a video filmed by Zoran Petrovic at the time of the events, but

24 this independent journalist had erased from his film some important parts

25 which provided interesting information. Among the pieces that he had

Page 9648

1 erased from his film is this very short view of men sitting on a balcony,

2 and as you can see, you can see the bars of this balcony. They match

3 perfectly the ones of this extract of the Zoran Petrovic video. So these

4 are photographs of men at the White House. So prisoners at this moment.

5 Q. Now we will have an investigator that will talk in much more

6 depth about the -- the two Petrovic videos, the one that had the missing

7 parts, and then the missing parts.

8 But briefly, Mr. Ruez, while you were still an investigator here,

9 had the missing parts been available to you and had they appeared yet?

10 A. No. We knew they were of fundamental importance since would they

11 not be, this journalist would have had no need to erase them but they

12 were only accessible to the OTP after my departure in 2001.

13 Q. Now, we can see in this still this circle upon circles and it

14 says "B." Can you tell us what that says from your knowledge?

15 A. Yes. It is the logo and the name of independent television in

16 Belgrade.

17 Q. And can you explain where this -- just very briefly where

18 these -- these lost clips, if I would call them that, came from. How --

19 how did they appear? Were they played over something?

20 A. They were played -- they were -- they were played in Belgrade

21 once. I think before the cuts. But during years we -- despite of many

22 efforts, we could never put a hand on an original recording of these.

23 Q. All right. I'm going to go back now to the -- the trial video,

24 65 ter 28780, which does contain the -- both the original Petrovic video

25 that Mr. Ruez had without the -- without the missing cuts. And then we

Page 9649

1 have, as you will see, overlayed the missing cut that we see the still

2 from. And if you could watch this. It's 9:09 to 10:54, V000-9267.

3 [Video-clip played]

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: There should be sound and some subtitling.

5 [Video-clip played]

6 THE WITNESS: These are clothings, bags, dumped by these men

7 before entering the -- the White House. They had to abandon their

8 belongings in front of the house.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we are at 09:23:7.

10 [Video-clip played]

11 THE WITNESS: That's Feros, just next to the UN main compound.

12 So the abandoned bags. Here you see Major Kingori with a few other

13 UN soldiers and a Serb interpreter, the man wearing a Kalashnikov and a

14 blue flak jacket, which is not UN equipment. This blue flak jacket is

15 Bosnian Serb equipment, a real one.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY:

17 Q. And you've mentioned --

18 JUDGE ORIE: One second. There seems to be a sound problem.

19 Could we ...

20 I'll speak a few words to see whether it is any better. It seems

21 to have been resolved.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY:

24 Q. Yes, Mr. Ruez. At 9:55:4, can you -- you mention Major Kingori.

25 Can you point him out for us so it's clear on the record.

Page 9650

1 A. He is at the left of the picture, turning his back to the

2 picture.

3 Q. All right. Let's continue.

4 [Video-clip played]

5 A. Now you can see Colonel Borovcanin, the head of the special

6 police brigade.

7 Q. And where precisely is Borovcanin?

8 A. I didn't check there was any cut before, but in that case, it is

9 in front of the White House.

10 Q. I'm sorry, which one so we know exactly --

11 A. Right -- right in the middle of the picture, without a hat.

12 Q. Okay. And that's at 9:59:5.

13 [Video-clip played]

14 A. Yeah. So this is the entrance of the White House.

15 Q. Okay. I'll stop it here at 10:17:2.

16 Can you explain why it went from the White House to this -- looks

17 like a shell casing?

18 A. I have no idea. It is the way Zoran Petrovic organised his film.

19 Q. Now let's continue to the next segment which is a new -- new

20 Studio B segment, I believe.

21 [Video-clip played]

22 A. So here is the site of the balcony with the men sitting on the

23 balcony.

24 Q. All right. And we're at 10:44:9.

25 [Video-clip played]

Page 9651

1 Q. Now we heard at -- we end at 10:53:8. We heard a person speaking

2 in Serbian and we saw lettering going on underneath. Can you tell us

3 what that is, if you remember?

4 A. The only thing I can say about this is to confirm that once I

5 said in previous trial that Zoran Petrovic was, in my view, it is my

6 purely personal opinion, not an independent journalist but a

7 propagandist. I think that these comments are clear enough to explain

8 the reason why I believe this.

9 Q. Was that part of the -- this Studio B playback over Belgrade

10 Television?

11 A. I would believe so.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could I stop you for a second.

13 We saw subtitling not in English, moving from the right to the

14 left in the picture. We also saw subtitles in English, apparently

15 reflecting the words spoken. You were talking about which of the two?

16 THE WITNESS: I'm talking only about the subtitles because I do

17 not understand the local language.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So we do not yet what we saw as far as the

19 language, may I take it we'll most likely be B/C/S starting with Bambi or

20 something of the kind.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can ask Mr. Ruez --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Second, Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Ruez introduced a Mr. --

23 as his private personal opinion, not evidence, that he thought that

24 Mr. Petrovic was a propagandist, rather. This witness comes as a witness

25 of fact. We heard, or at least we read, the words spoken, that these

Page 9652

1 were all registered criminals on the balcony. The personal views of this

2 witness who is called as a witness of fact are not relevant.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And we should be very careful anyhow that often you

6 explain what we see, what it was. Sometimes I take it that you want to

7 tell us that you think that it was A, B, or C, because you concluded that

8 from statements given by other persons and combining that with what you

9 saw on the ground. We have to be very careful where you are presenting

10 facts you observed personally and where you explain, more or less

11 summarise, what others said. Apart, of course, from adjudicated facts.

12 That's a different area.

13 But let's try not to mix it up.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for your information, the transcript,

16 Mr. President, of the trial video actually has a translation of the -- of

17 that part at English 76 through 77, and B/C/S 71 through 72. But perhaps

18 Mr. Ruez will remember --

19 Q. Do you recall back when you first saw this and that there was an

20 advertisement for a -- or a mentioning of a Rolling Stones concert in

21 Belgrade going along the bottom of that screen. Do you have any

22 recollection of that?

23 A. Yes, I do, yeah.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So the simple answer then is: It's commercials.

25 Let's proceed.

Page 9653

1 MR. McCLOSKEY:

2 Q. All right. Let now go to the next page, which you basically note

3 in a map graphic. We see a -- it's page 28 in e-court. And it's page 10

4 in your book but you'll see it on the screen.

5 And down in the right corner we just see a black arrow. Briefly.

6 A. So that's the direction that was taken by these men who were

7 separated into Potocari and moved to a very short distance from Potocari

8 to the town of Bratunac. This happened starting the 12 and it continued

9 the 13. The men -- so in -- in Potocari, direction Bratunac.

10 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page.

11 We see a blue arrow and a circle over the city of Bratunac. What

12 is this?

13 A. This shows the direction from -- the picture is going -- it's

14 north-west orientation, so the arrow shows the direction, the straight

15 line coming from Potocari inside Bratunac town, and the interest of this

16 picture is to show that Bratunac is a very small town.

17 Q. All right. And we'll get into Bratunac in little more detail

18 later.

19 Let's go to the next picture. E-court 30. This is the beginning

20 of a chapter that you call "Ex-filtration," and we see another black

21 arrow from the Susnjari-Jaglici area across Nova Kasaba. What's this?

22 A. As I said, the men who assembled in Susnjari, these men were

23 mainly of two groups, the 28th Division of BiH Army. The enclave had

24 never been demilitarised despite of the agreements. These soldiers were

25 armed. They were approximately 6.000 among a crowd of 15.000. The

Page 9654

1 others were mainly unarmed but some had also weapons, and there was a

2 very small army group at the end of this column. So we -- 28th Division

3 went in front, first the -- all these people had to cross a minefield, so

4 they opened a very small path. So it was a very slow process to get out

5 of the area. It -- it took the night between the -- the 11 and the 12,

6 and so this -- this column, I said it like an ant column, moved towards

7 the collection of Konjevic Polje. The -- the black arrow is a rough

8 indication. The real path is a bit underneath the Kravica river, because

9 there is a steep hill just at the south of the -- of the strategic road

10 going from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje where there is on top of this hill

11 a power line, electrical power line, and this was the orientation for all

12 the people, most of them who didn't knew the area. So they follow --

13 they had to follow this power line because this power line was going

14 straight towards Konjevic Polje.

15 Konjevic Polje is a very important location since it is the

16 crossing point from this area to the area west, the limit being the road

17 between Konjevic Polje and Nova Kasaba. As long as this road

18 Konjevic Polje-Nova Kasaba was open, the column could go through, and

19 this was the fate of the first group, the army. But once, on 13 in the

20 morning, this was sealed by the Bosnian Serb army, the people were

21 trapped in this area, so between Konjevic Polje and roughly the area of

22 Kravica.

23 So this elements on this map are very important to keep in mind

24 because we will talk about these locations later on. And, also, I would

25 like to point to you at the tip of this arrow, where the tip of the arrow

Page 9655

1 is, is a big hill, and this hill is something that you will hear about

2 also because it's from this hill that several witnesses could see events

3 in the area.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put a question at this point in time.

5 Mr. Ruez, obviously you have not been present while the column

6 was moving. What is the source of your knowledge about numbers of people

7 in the column, the composition of the column, which part of the column

8 was composed of soldiers, armed soldiers, and others? What is the source

9 of your knowledge of all these details?

10 THE WITNESS: It is multiple sources. In fact, it's a

11 combination of several witness statements from people who made this

12 movement as well as the Bosnian Serb army. 6.000 armed men arrived alive

13 in -- in Tuzla, members of the 28th Division. So army in front, people

14 behind. It's -- it's an indication given by many -- many witnesses. And

15 that the final result, as we know, as the Defence knows also, the main

16 target of this operation fled, which is to say, the 28th Division. Most

17 of it, let's say.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: When I ask you about -- when I ask you about your

19 knowledge and your source, it's not necessary to refer to the knowledge

20 of the Defence.

21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a follow-up question.

23 My question is: If your source is from a number of witnesses who

24 were there, why do we hear you and not those witnesses?

25 THE WITNESS: You could call in maybe 15 or 20 people rather than

Page 9656

1 me just for this part. Because many of these people had nothing very

2 important to say in terms of crimes committed. We interviewed a lot of

3 people, and we didn't keep all of them as key witnesses, since this case

4 quite quickly ended up focussing only on the main crimes. We had to

5 disregard a lot of -- let's say, small criminal events. But at the

6 beginning of the investigation, we were taking information from a lot of

7 witnesses but without necessarily later on calling them as witnesses here

8 for the trial because we didn't have, let's say, enough severe crimes to

9 talk about.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I remind you, Mr. McCloskey, of the best

11 evidence rule.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. May I briefly respond so that you --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, before you do so, perhaps I add one

14 observation.

15 Mr. Ruez, when you're talking about "we," on the one-hand side,

16 you say "we interviewed." That is a very factual thing you did.

17 In the next line you say, "We did not keep them as key

18 witnesses." That is the "we" who is making strategic and tactical

19 decisions for the Prosecution. As I said before, I would like to have

20 this all strictly separated. It started already yesterday with my first

21 question, how do you know, and then you said, Well, of course, this is a

22 conclusion because no soldier was there from UNPROFOR.

23 Let's try to clearly distinguish facts -- the fact being

24 Witness A told me this, Witness B told me that, Witness C told you that.

25 Because these are facts that the witness told to you. And whether they

Page 9657

1 are all three lying, or whether they're all three telling us the truth,

2 or what you concluded on the basis of, et cetera, et cetera. There's a

3 thin line here, Mr. McCloskey, between the Chamber drawing the

4 conclusions on the basis of the evidence and a witness of fact drawing

5 the conclusions on the basis of the evidence.

6 And that is, I think, a concern which was expressed already by

7 all three of the Judges until now and we're only one hour on our way.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, if I could attempt to explain.

9 When Mr. Ruez speaks, what -- what I believe -- the Prosecution

10 takes it as what he is saying is the investigation has revealed that.

11 And we -- the purpose of his testimony is in about five hours to give

12 you, as he has said, a background of the chronology of the events and the

13 places where it happened. We don't suggest that you're taking Mr. Ruez's

14 word on -- on events. He is speaking of -- of witnesses that are either

15 in this record in 92 bis or will testify. What he is trying to do is

16 just give you an overall picture of these places and what the

17 investigation revealed.

18 And, as you can see, he also is -- mentions things that the

19 Defence fully believe and the non-demilitarisation of the enclave, the

20 presence of the 28th Division. In that regard, the Defence will see that

21 we're not challenging those things.

22 So he's really designed only in five hours to give you a

23 background of what the investigation has revealed. It's hearsay. It's

24 not necessarily for the truth of the matter he's asserted. I'm not sure

25 any judgements have cited Mr. Ruez. He is here so that when the

Page 9658

1 witnesses such as the one you saw yesterday comes to the soccer field,

2 you have already seen the picture of the soccer field and the brief

3 description. So that's all it is for, to give you a five-hour background

4 of what the investigation revealed and the places. It is not meant to

5 replace any evidence or witnesses.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed at this moment. And we do understand

7 that most of the answers of Mr. Ruez should start, to begin with, with

8 the investigation and the witnesses gave us the impression that this

9 might have been the case. That is apparently -- and then we'll later, on

10 the basis of the evidence, we'll see whether that impression will be the

11 impression and the conclusion of the Chamber as well.

12 Mr. Ruez, would you also carefully keep in mind when using your

13 language not to tell us what happened but what you think has happened on

14 the basis of your interviews of witnesses and going to the terrain.

15 This is just a caveat for all of us, that we should try to

16 present it for what it really is and to understand it for what it really

17 is.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. It's e-court 31. And

21 you've got a -- a photograph and a yellow arrow. What has the

22 investigation revealed that -- that allows you or causes you to put up

23 this picture and this arrow?

24 A. So this picture really reveals nothing. It shows -- seen from in

25 direction towards south at the bottom of the picture, the strategic road

Page 9659

1 I was referring to previously with the two directions, and according to

2 the knowledge I gained from these interviews, the alleged direction that

3 these people took is marked on this map with this yellow arrow. So you

4 can see the road, you can see bend going south of the hill, and these

5 folks were walking on top just behind this hill, according to my

6 knowledge.

7 Q. All right. And let's go to the next page, just briefly what area

8 is -- is this and what do you believe it depicts?

9 A. I believe this depicts the big hill I was referring to

10 previously, which is at the junction before Nova Kasaba and

11 Konjevic Polje. This is the hill where some witnesses, I and other

12 investigators, so we, think is the hill from where people could see

13 events happening in Nova Kasaba, at Cerska valley, and at Konjevic Polje.

14 Q. The next page. 33 in e-court.

15 A. Mm-hm. So one is once you are on the hill but at the bottom of

16 the hill, this is a picture I took as well as the other one, by the way,

17 this is so the area the column had to cross, if willing, then to continue

18 its way towards Muslim-held territory, and so there is an open space

19 here, and you have to go to the opposite side and there is a road and a

20 river.

21 And at the right is the intersection of Konjevic Polje, going

22 right would return to Bratunac, going left going south towards

23 Nova Kasaba, and at the top of the picture, it's going along the

24 Jadar river to the direction of Zvornik. The yellow arrow is indicating

25 the movement this column was taking.

Page 9660

1 JUDGE ORIE: Are we now on this picture facing south or north?

2 THE WITNESS: This one is facing north.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That means the yellow dotted line indicates

4 where you think, on the basis of the evidence of the -- on the

5 testimonies, the statements of the witnesses, that they came from -- let

6 me see.

7 THE WITNESS: From the direction of Bratunac.

8 JUDGE ORIE: From Bratunac. And this is then where they had to

9 cross the road --

10 THE WITNESS: Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- where you said there was a strategic issue

12 involved.

13 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. The strategic blockade of the area

14 that sealed the --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's just for my orientation.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY:

18 Q. Let go to the next chapter entitled: "Surrender and arrest."

19 And the next page is 34 on e-court, 16 in the book. And you have your

20 first page, prisoners of war. And did the investigation identify various

21 sites where Muslim men were assembled on 13 July?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did you go to those sites you learned of and photograph them

24 and put them in this book?

25 A. Yes, this is correct.

Page 9661

1 Q. And I take it -- tell us, these blue circles that we see on this

2 page in front of us, what is that?

3 A. These blue circles indicate the rough location of assembly points

4 for captured men.

5 Q. All right. And so let's now go through them. We can see that

6 there's one off the page that didn't make it on the map, Luke. And let's

7 go to the next page. It's 35 in e-court.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question.

9 May I take it, although you didn't tell us, that the size of the

10 circles is indicative for larger or smaller numbers.

11 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is correct. But it is really a very,

12 very rough --

13 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- that's what I said indicative for larger

14 or smaller numbers --

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Otherwise I would have said indicative for the

17 numbers.

18 THE WITNESS: Okay.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY:

21 Q. All right. So we're now at a page and we see a blue circle at

22 Luke just off the map. So I -- I take it we're speaking of Luke at this

23 point?

24 A. Yes absolutely. It's out of the map, unfortunately. Luke is

25 the -- is a -- let's say, a little location just before reaching the

Page 9662

1 front -- the confrontation line which at that place is named Kladanj. So

2 the men who were -- I mean, the people who were taken on board of buses

3 were shipped towards Kladanj where they had to finish the way by foot.

4 But just before this, another separation took place, and the men who

5 managed to get on board of these buses were later on -- I mean, at least

6 one, the witness we know, they were separated here and taken, according

7 to this man, to an elementary school. So we -- we were looking for this

8 school in Tisca, in fact, which is on the map, but it was not in Tisca.

9 We ended up going to Luke with this witness without whom we would not

10 have found this very small elementary school.

11 Q. Did you find it?

12 A. Yes, we did, mm-hm.

13 Q. Let's go to the next page. 36 in e-court.

14 What's this?

15 A. So this is the location he describes. The orientation of this

16 picture is roughly towards the west, so the -- the buses were taking this

17 road towards this -- towards this direction but those who were separated

18 were walked towards this small building. This is the building he showed

19 us as being the building in which he was kept.

20 Q. Let's go to the next page, 37.

21 Is this the same building?

22 A. It is the same building seen from the back. The vehicle was

23 ours. In his initial interview, he said that he first he was in a group

24 sitting in the -- on a meadow under a tree, and this is the -- this is

25 the area where he said having sat with a group of others on 13 July.

Page 9663

1 Q. All right.

2 A. 12 July. I can't remember very well. 12 or 13. 12.

3 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next picture. 38 in e-court.

4 A. This is a classroom in which this witness claims having been

5 taken to and where he was beaten.

6 Q. All right.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: This may be a good place to stop, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we do that.

9 Beaten by who?

10 THE WITNESS: Beaten by Bosnian Serb soldiers who were guarding

11 the prisoners.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We will ... we will take a break of 20 minutes and

14 resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

19 Meanwhile, I'll use the time to deal with a short procedural

20 matter about MFI D203. Exhibit D203 was tendered through Witness

21 Ekrem Suljevic on the 11th of February and subsequently marked for

22 identification pending clarification of the translation. Source in the

23 transcript is T8435. The Chamber notes the request of the Defence sent

24 through informal communications on the 10th of April, 2013, to replace

25 the English translation of D203 as it is currently in e-court with

Page 9664

1 doc ID 0084-7435, with another English translation with doc ID 1D03-1079.

2 I take it that replacement is to have a better translation or

3 just another one.

4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we have reviewed that new translation

5 and have no objection to the replacement.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber hereby requests you,

7 Madam Registrar, to replace the current translation with doc ID

8 1D03-1079, and we admit D203 into evidence.

9 [The witness takes the stand]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

12 Q. If we could continue we should be at e-court page 39 of the -- of

13 the book. Yeah. That's 38. Yes, 39.

14 And we were at the -- what you have referred to as the

15 regroupment sites, first one Luke. Now we see this page. What are the

16 regroupment sites here briefly?

17 A. Here are two -- two spots. One being Nova Kasaba, and the other

18 one the soccer field of Nova Kasaba.

19 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page.

20 We have an aerial image which is noted buses at a facility. And

21 we see the yellow marks which we now know are marks that you put in.

22 What have you identified here?

23 A. So this picture identifies the location that is the

24 65th Protection Regiment compound. It is a military facility in which

25 Dutch UN peacekeeping personnel -- not Dutch and -- sorry, I'm reading

Page 9665

1 the transcript. It's UN keeping [sic] personnel was held as well as,

2 according to what they said, Bosnian prisoners. And on this aerial

3 imagery one can see that there are buses also on the parking lot.

4 Q. Now, have you been to this site yourself on the ground?

5 A. We never entered the -- the military facility but we took a

6 picture of it alongside of a road. You can see it's -- the short

7 distance of the road at the right, top right of the picture, is the --

8 the road that goes from Bratunac towards Kladanj.

9 Q. Did you learn or -- or did you -- or do you recall was this a --

10 always a military facility or was it some civilian facility at some

11 point, to your knowledge?

12 A. I have no knowledge about this. It was a military facility at

13 the time of the events and shortly afterward, but I don't know about it.

14 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page.

15 What's this?

16 A. This is a -- the same military facility but seen from the road.

17 Q. Okay. Now, let's go on to the next page. And I -- I can tell

18 you the -- the Judges have had some dealings with this so if you could

19 just briefly explain -- explain this.

20 A. As the picture says it, according to the provider, it shows a bus

21 convoy but it is a still picture. We do not know if these buses are

22 going towards the -- the evacuation point or driving back to Bratunac.

23 This we don't know. What we can see on this picture is -- of interest is

24 also the soccer field. The picture is taken 14 [sic] July approximately

25 at 14 hours, at 2.00 p.m.

Page 9666

1 Q. I think -- take another look at the timing. I think you may have

2 misspoke.

3 A. 14 hours; 2.00 p.m.

4 Q. What date?

5 A. 13.

6 Q. Okay. All right. And then let's go to the next picture.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- could I ask the witness, which direction is

8 what? To the right is going to ...

9 THE WITNESS: To the right is going towards Bratunac, so first to

10 intersection of Konjevic Polje. And to the left, towards Nova Kasaba,

11 Vlasenica and Kladanj.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have you considered the position of the buses

13 on the road when you said that no -- that you do not know whether the

14 buses are going in which direction?

15 THE WITNESS: We cannot say because it's a still.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if -- if these buses were driving to the

17 left of the picture, there were driving as if they were in England, isn't

18 it?

19 THE WITNESS: I agree. But on the other hand, we don't know if

20 there are people are on board so it's -- their presence just shows that,

21 indeed, on 13 July there were a lot of bus movements in the area.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, I --

23 THE WITNESS: You see --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that. But I think the parties could

25 agree, I take it, that the buses --

Page 9667

1 THE WITNESS: They are coming back, yeah.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether they are coming back or not, they are

3 situated at the right-hand side of the road if you would look into the

4 direction of Konjevic Polje.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes. They drive towards Konjevic Polje.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Whether they drive or not, I do not know --

7 THE WITNESS: Or not, yes --

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- but they are situated on the right-hand side of

9 the road in that direction.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

13 Q. Now we see you have drawn yellow around this, concluding groups

14 of prisoners and football field. And is that your conclusion based on

15 information you received from the investigation, from the witnesses?

16 A. Yes, absolutely. And also from what we could observe from the

17 ground. You will see it later. Enables us to confirm -- I mean, say,

18 that what is seen on this picture on this soccer field is groups of

19 people, since the witnesses say these people were prisoners plus Bosnian

20 Serb guards. This picture shows them at that date, that hour.

21 Q. All right. Let's go on to the next page. 44 in e-court.

22 What's this?

23 A. This is a close-up picture of -- I mean, a zoom, in fact, of the

24 same picture as previously, where you can -- this time it's marked by the

25 provider also people on football field. So according to our knowledge,

Page 9668

1 these people, as I just indicated, are prisoners, lying in rows, and also

2 guards.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the provider wasn't there either. Is

4 that --

5 THE WITNESS: The provider is an aerial platform and the provider

6 is US government.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But whether these were prisoners or not, the

8 US platform wouldn't know.

9 THE WITNESS: No.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We meanwhile receive the evidence so there is no

11 problem with it.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: But, again, let's clearly distinguish between what

14 you can tell us, what we hear from witnesses and what you learned from

15 witnesses, and to say that the provider told us that these are

16 prisoners --

17 THE WITNESS: No, no, I said people. The witnesses -- there is a

18 misunderstanding, I mis-expressed myself maybe.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let me see.

20 THE WITNESS: The witnesses say these people were prisoners. The

21 picture says they are people.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that.

23 Please proceed.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, the Prosecution does consider

25 that the evidence of -- the information on this aerial image from the

Page 9669

1 provider is evidence and should have some weight. The weight you give it

2 only up to you, of course. But you'll, of course, test it with all the

3 witnesses. But it is more than just a label, in our view, because

4 it's -- the provider has said that they stand by this information.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, we have heard testimony about these

6 matters.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.

8 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. 45 in e-court.

9 What's this?

10 A. This is the same soccer field, a still photograph taken from -- I

11 took from a helicopter. You can see the road. You can recognise the

12 football field. And just after that, you enter Nova Kasaba.

13 Q. Can you remind us where Milici is, if you recall?

14 A. Yes. Milici is -- if you continue this road, I would say maybe,

15 I don't remind very well, maybe 3 kilometres we arrive in Milici.

16 Q. Okay. Let's --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Which direction?

18 THE WITNESS: Direction south. This picture is oriented south.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The picture is facing south. Thank you.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY:

21 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next -- next page. E-court 46.

22 What 's this?

23 A. This is a picture of this football field. I took it in

24 April 1996. And the men on this football field are Bosnian Serb

25 soldiers, dog handlers. The interest of it is to give an indication of

Page 9670

1 the size of a man on this football field that you can then compare with

2 the dots that you can see on the aerial imagery. To give an indication

3 of the size of objects on the aerial imagery.

4 Q. All right. Let's go to the next site, which you've got -- is

5 marked as Konjevic Polje, and we see your blue dot near that.

6 So let's go onto the next page. 48 in e-court.

7 What is -- where is this and what is it?

8 A. So this is at the -- very close to the intersection of

9 Konjevic Polje but going towards the direction of Bratunac. The right of

10 the picture is Bratunac. It is oriented north. It is another military

11 facility in this area. It is the -- the 5th Engineer Battalion who is

12 located at that place. One witness claims having surrendered at that

13 spot and was initially taken to this -- to this place.

14 Q. What's the circle?

15 A. The circle positions the -- the guard house that he describes as

16 being the first point he was taken to when he exited -- when he went down

17 the hill and exited the wooded area and arrived at this little -- at what

18 he said was a guard house.

19 Q. After reviewing or receiving this information from the witness,

20 did you have a chance to go to this area on the ground and see if there

21 was anything related to what he had said?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next picture.

24 What's this?

25 A. So this is the -- the military facility seen from the road. And

Page 9671

1 the first thing you see at the left is, indeed, the guard house that he

2 had described and that he recognised when we brought him back to this

3 area.

4 Q. All right. Let's go to the next --

5 A. This picture was taken before, but at a later stage we came back

6 with him.

7 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next -- next picture. 50.

8 Where is this, and what's the significance of your markings?

9 A. This is, again, the intersection of Konjevic Polje facing the

10 north. You have the Jadar river at the left of the picture. And at the

11 right of the picture, where the blue line is, is the direction of

12 Bratunac.

13 The building circled in blue is a hangar. This witness says that

14 after having spent a moment at the 5th Engineer Battalion he was taken to

15 this house where prisoners were regrouped. And it's not a house, it's a

16 hangar. It is the only picture we have of this hangar, since it was

17 destroyed one year later.

18 Q. Do you remember what's there now?

19 A. Yes. There is a gas station located on this -- on this spot.

20 Q. Let's go to the next picture.

21 JUDGE ORIE: One year after you took this photograph, was it

22 destroyed?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes. The following summer it was destroyed and

24 then there was a -- I think during one year there was nothing and the gas

25 station was already there in 1998. We wanted to probe a suspect site,

Page 9672

1 looking for bodies, but it was a mission impossible without destroying

2 the gas station.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You mean that -- when did you take the

4 photograph to the left?

5 THE WITNESS: This one was taken -- it's marked on it, it's

6 26 April 1997, this one, sorry. So it was destroyed in 1998. Yep.

7 JUDGE ORIE: One year after this --

8 THE WITNESS: This picture.

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- picture was taken --

10 THE WITNESS: No, it was -- two things, sorry. Because there is

11 another one. This -- the first one we should have shown, in fact, is

12 this one because the other one has a more --

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we're a little bit mixed up.

14 Q. Are we talking about which photograph, the one that's on e-court

15 now?

16 A. The one that is on e-court is April 1996. The previous one was

17 1997. It was destroyed in 1998 to construct the gas station. But we

18 have these pictures that match what the witness told us.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: So this --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see.

21 This one was taken in?

22 THE WITNESS: The one we have on the screen now is -- was taken

23 13 April 1996.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And the one with the blue --

25 THE WITNESS: The one before -- the one after -- the one before,

Page 9673

1 sorry, was taken 26 April 1997.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 THE WITNESS: But this area doesn't exist any longer.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And since then it has been destroyed.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes. As well as things changed a lot in the area.

6 On previous picture, just as -- for an example, there is a church, an

7 Orthodox church, this one was constructed that year, in 1997. It did not

8 exist in 1996.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I was surprised by the speed of construction

10 because there's quite a bit of construction then apparently completed

11 within one year.

12 THE WITNESS: The first thing that was constructed very quickly

13 in the area were religious monuments.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you.

15 Please proceed.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY:

17 Q. All right. We see now the close-up. I take it those are NATO

18 vehicles?

19 A. Yes. These were our escort.

20 Q. All right. Let's now go to the next regroupment site which you

21 have noted in the table of contents as Sandici. And we see your blue

22 mark by Sandici.

23 So let's go to the next page. 53 in e-court.

24 Where's this, what's the significance of the yellow?

25 A. Sorry, did we see the map?

Page 9674

1 Q. I had to skip it, I'm sorry.

2 A. Do we return on it? The map? Before this picture?

3 Q. We can if you have -- if you have something --

4 A. Just to spot the location but it is not necessary to return. We

5 all know --

6 Q. I think we're okay.

7 A. We're okay?

8 Q. Yeah.

9 A. So this picture is just to reference the location since we have a

10 piece of footage from Mr. Zoran Petrovic in this area. On his footage,

11 one can see at some point people surrendering, walking down a hill, and

12 you have two reference points from this film, the pylon and also the open

13 space where, on his film, one can see people arriving from. This is the

14 road going towards the direction of Bratunac. Sandici is just after the

15 curve and this hill where the pylon is.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Now, to the left -- what -- which direction is this

17 photograph facing?

18 THE WITNESS: It is taken from -- from west to east going towards

19 Bratunac. Just before arriving to Sandici, coming from Konjevic Polje.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY:

21 Q. So Konjevic Polje is behind you --

22 A. Behind us.

23 Q. -- when you take that photograph?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And do you recall on the Petrovic film - we won't play it - but

Page 9675

1 was there any firing of any weapons up at those hills at the time of the

2 film, as you remember it?

3 A. Yeah, I think we could hear on the film some shooting going on,

4 which is quite logical, I would say. Yeah. It's mainly also where

5 the -- the area where one of the Bosnian Serb soldiers who is interviewed

6 says that they already had 5.000 people since the beginning of the day.

7 Q. All right. Well --

8 A. All this is in this spot, this area.

9 Q. Okay. We'll get to that with other witnesses.

10 Let's go to the next page. 54 in e-court.

11 What's this?

12 A. This is a view from the -- the asphalt road. The photograph

13 faces south. It is the -- the area from which the people who were on the

14 hills started a massive surrender process on 13 July in the morning.

15 They were coming down from these hills along the path that we can see on

16 the -- on the right and arrived on this area, then had to cross the road

17 that is just more or less where I took the picture from.

18 Q. And I don't need to you go into detail, but did you learn that

19 from a combination of things, or just witnesses?

20 A. It's -- yeah, it's a combination of -- of things coming from the

21 witnesses.

22 Q. Did the Petrovic video help you make these determinations as

23 well?

24 A. Absolutely. The process is perfectly clear on the Petrovic

25 video. This is the path that the people walk along. And on the Petrovic

Page 9676

1 video you will see something of interest which is just the next picture.

2 Q. All right. Let's -- let's go to that picture then, the next one,

3 and it's 55 on e-court.

4 A. So this is photographed from the way the people are coming from,

5 so now it's facing north, so it's the opposite. And the -- the men were

6 walking just at the left of this white house, another white house,

7 two-storey house just at the left. And you have a piece of footage of

8 this surrender process on Zoran Petrovic happening right there.

9 Q. All right.

10 JUDGE ORIE: One question, on the previous picture we saw a small

11 structure approximately 2 and a half metres high and to the right. Is

12 that visible on this one? Is that --

13 THE WITNESS: Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: -- by any chance the structure we see at the right

15 middle side of this picture?

16 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So --

18 THE WITNESS: I took the first picture from the left of the small

19 structure.

20 JUDGE ORIE: From the left of --

21 THE WITNESS: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Left seen from where?

23 THE WITNESS: When you are -- when I took the photograph, so the

24 right on this -- on this picture. At the very right of this picture,

25 just at the angle of the small structure is from where I took the

Page 9677

1 previous picture.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I see a corner. I see on the previous picture, I

3 see a small white structure with what seems to be a door or an entry.

4 Now is that visible or is that hidden at the back of what we see now on

5 our screen?

6 THE WITNESS: It is the -- at the right, very right of this

7 picture. I was standing next to the small, little, destroyed house that

8 you can see at the right.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 THE WITNESS: This is why on the previous picture you could see a

11 part of the wall of this small structure at the right of the picture.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Were you standing from this point of view before

13 the structure on the right-hand side of the structure or behind the

14 structure --

15 THE WITNESS: No --

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- while you're taking the photograph?

17 THE WITNESS: On the previous picture I was standing at the right

18 of this photograph next to the small structure that you can see, and this

19 little structure is indicated by no witness. We don't know if this was

20 used for --

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, this is not my question.

22 THE WITNESS: Okay.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Look at the screen. We see the small structure

24 on the right-hand side of the picture. When you took the other

25 photograph, were you standing behind or on the right-hand side of that

Page 9678

1 building or in front of that building?

2 THE WITNESS: Next to it.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The little structure.

4 THE WITNESS: This is why we can see part of the wall --

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's clear. But where next to it?

6 THE WITNESS: Seen on the photograph a little bit left, a little

7 bit left and a little bit behind there so that this is why you can see

8 this piece of wall.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Let me --

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're getting --

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would I see you -- if you would be standing there

12 at that moment this picture was taken, would I be able to see you?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Or would you be hidden behind --

14 THE WITNESS: I would be just behind -- just behind the corner.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was my question. Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're getting to an aerial that might help.

18 Could we go to the next -- the next page, 56.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask, I see a lot of small items in front of

20 this white house. Could you tell us what that is.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes. It is a Muslim graveyard --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, that's --

23 THE WITNESS: -- and all the abandoned things, all of the things

24 you see on the ground are abandoned material from this surrender process.

25 This picture was taken in early 1996 so everything was still on the

Page 9679

1 ground at that moment. So you have a lot of plastics from HCR, a lot of

2 personal items of little interest but among them also some of interest.

3 We collected IDs, we collected documents with names on them, matched them

4 with the missing list, and so on.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

6 Please proceed.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: So if we could be at 56.

8 Q. And what is this?

9 A. So this is an aerial picture of the area. On the following one

10 there will be the markings, but ...

11 Q. All right. Let's go to the --

12 A. [Overlapping speakers] ... be easier with the markings.

13 Q. Let's go to the markings. The next page, then.

14 A. No, you have one before with the yellow markings, sorry.

15 Q. Yes. There should be 57 on e-court.

16 A. Yes. Same explanation than previously. But based on this

17 aerial, going from the top of the picture, the dotted yellow line is the

18 path followed by those who were surrendering. The two-storey white house

19 is now pointed as the destroyed house. Just next to this house you would

20 see on the Zoran Petrovic video prisoners surrendering, one being ordered

21 to take off his T-shirt. This happens here. And when the people crossed

22 the asphalt road were taken to a meadow where they were regrouped. The

23 group of people the provider marked on the label is circled and

24 designated group of prisoners. I did the marking. And shows the

25 location of them.

Page 9680

1 I also pointed the three destroyed houses, since these are

2 features witnesses talk about.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask if we had the opportunity to see the

4 destroyed house in another picture which is on the left side of this

5 aerial image? The single house.

6 THE WITNESS: The little destroyed house we were talking for the

7 previous pictures? Are you talking about this --

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is my question.

9 THE WITNESS: Yes. We cannot see it because just at the left of

10 the one that I marked with an arrow as destroyed house and this small

11 structure is now under the arrow. It is just at the left of this

12 two-storage house. But this small structure, no one talks about it so I

13 never used it as any kind of reference point.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In yellow you described this house as destroyed

15 house. Is that the white house we have seen in the previous picture?

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, the big one --

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The big one, the white --

18 THE WITNESS: -- the two-storage one, yes --

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You called it the white house.

20 THE WITNESS: Yes. Absolutely, yes, yes.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY:

23 Q. We can go to the next aerial which gives a bit of a better

24 picture of it. It's 58 on e-court.

25 A. So this a blow-up in fact of the previous one. Since it

Page 9681

1 indicated group of people, you now know where they are, since they were

2 circled on the previous picture. And you can also see the asphalt road

3 and also the two-storage white house.

4 Q. How about the now infamous little house? Do you see where that

5 is?

6 A. The picture is very blurry because it is getting closer. It's at

7 the left -- maybe ... yeah. At the left, you have a big tree and in fact

8 the big tree is hiding the little structure. But it's just at the left

9 at the angle of the big tree. Since the picture is taken during summer,

10 there are leaves on the tree. And on the other picture showing the grave

11 and the two-storage house, you have the tree but without leaves. This is

12 why you also perfectly see the little structure. And it's not taken from

13 the air, so it's not hidden.

14 Q. All right. And as we look at this photograph, were there

15 witnesses that were actually on this meadow that provided statements to

16 you?

17 A. Yes, there were. Yes.

18 Q. Is that consistent with this conclusion that this is people on

19 this photograph?

20 A. Absolutely.

21 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one. 59.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one further question.

23 Could you indicate where now the graveyard on this picture is in

24 relation to the house. Is it up or is it down, on the picture, of

25 course?

Page 9682

1 THE WITNESS: It's up.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It's up.

3 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's up.

4 JUDGE ORIE: So we are looking now at --

5 THE WITNESS: Towards the south.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We are now looking towards the south. Yes. So

7 we're looking at the facade of the building which is not visible on the

8 big picture we saw before.

9 THE WITNESS: Correct.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That is clear to me.

11 Yes, please proceed.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY:

13 Q. And if we can go to 59, the next photograph.

14 What is -- what is this?

15 A. So this picture was taken in 1997. But, as I told you, in 1996,

16 we searched the area, and on this area, we found a lot of abandoned

17 items, stretchers, ID cards, documents.

18 And if you take the picture of the left, it's very difficult to

19 make any assessment of numbers because the photograph is taken with an

20 angle and people are sitting on a slope so it's very hard to assess. But

21 the rough location that I narrowed down on purpose, not to make it larger

22 but smaller, is, in my opinion, the reference on the ground is now marked

23 with the yellow -- the yellow line which is the -- the location of this

24 group of people that we could see on the previous photograph. This is

25 now seen from the ground.

Page 9683

1 The following year it was a corn field, so ...

2 Q. All right. Now let's go to the next one. 60.

3 What is this?

4 A. This is the same view than the previous one indicating the

5 precise location of an event that can be seen in the Zoran Petrovic video

6 where, indeed, a group of people we believe are prisoners were sitting.

7 And at the moment of this film when it stops, this group of people are

8 sitting precisely where I boxed the photograph.

9 Q. So the -- the picture up in the left-hand corner, where is that

10 from? That still picture.

11 A. From the video taken on the spot by Zoran Petrovic.

12 Q. All right. Let's go back now briefly to the trial video, exhibit

13 65 ter 28780, from 19:23 to 20:12, V000-9267.

14 [Video-clip played]

15 MR. McCLOSKEY:

16 Q. Do you know or recall who that is at 19:42:5?

17 A. Yes. The man that is called Boro is Colonel Borovcanin.

18 Q. Okay. And this -- okay. Let's continue.

19 [Video-clip played]

20 A. So now it's moving towards the group of people that we could see

21 on -- and now it's closing up on something that is going to happen but

22 then he is cutting his film.

23 Q. So is this the shot you have up in -- on your photo book?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Okay. And that's at 19:58:8. And -- all right. That's just

Page 9684

1 a -- we've slo-mo'd it so that it can be viewed in slow motion.

2 [Video-clip played]

3 MR. McCLOSKEY:

4 Q. All right. Now, your chapters change from regroupment to

5 execution area, south. And that is -- let's go to page 61 in e-court.

6 And we -- we see the blue dot at the far left at Luke school.

7 And then we see a red dot in Vlasenica, above Vlasenica. Can you tell us

8 the significance of these? Are these related?

9 A. Yes. The witness who claims having taken to Luke school after

10 having been separated prior -- attempting to cross at Kladanj said he was

11 taken on board of a little truck. He arrived at what he -- he describes

12 due to lamps at the side of the street as being the entrance of

13 Vlasenica. Vlasenica was the HQ of the Drina Corps. This truck turned

14 left and after a while of drive, bumpy drive, he claimed having escaped

15 at a location where there were already dead bodies. We attempted to find

16 this place. We even then brought him back to the location, and it was a

17 mission impossible to find any evidence of -- of execution or dead bodies

18 in this place. And we could not also find aerial imagery that could

19 assist us orient ourselves in this area which is very hard to investigate

20 in because everything looks a bit similar. Little hills, soft hills,

21 little valleys, impossible to -- to find without additional indication.

22 So, as I said, the missions were aimed to confirm or not. On

23 this case, we could not confirm the final stage of the story of this

24 witness by hard evidence.

25 Q. So the red dot, is that meant to be any particular location?

Page 9685

1 A. It's not a particular location. It's really an estimate of where

2 this could be. It's just north of Vlasenica. No additional info.

3 Q. All right. Let's continue on to the next site which is labelled

4 in your contents as "Cerska," and we see a red dot sort of between Cerska

5 and -- and the roads.

6 Can you tell us about this? Briefly.

7 A. Yes. The big hill I was referring to at one point is just

8 underneath, you know, Konjevic Polje, north of Nova Kasaba, and from this

9 hill witnesses were looking to find a way to -- to cross this area and,

10 in that process, observed a certain number of things, including for one

11 of them, he saw three buses entering the direction of the Cerska valley.

12 These buses were followed by an APC and -- an armoured personnel carrier,

13 and also a short time after that by an excavator. And once out of sight,

14 he could hear at some point intensive shooting coming from this valley.

15 Then the buses are leaving the area.

16 So there was an assumption of something happening in that place

17 that we tried to find using additional witnesses who didn't see what

18 happened but one walked on this -- on this path leading to the valley of

19 Cerska at one point stepped in a pool of blood. He was barefoot. But we

20 finally could have additional info by a group of other people who had

21 escaped, hid themselves at the -- at the end of this valley of Cerska,

22 and on their way back, because they didn't know how to -- how to leave,

23 they decided to return towards -- towards the Srebrenica area and at one

24 point smelled a very bad smell. And since we had filmed the entire way

25 of this valley from -- in all these directions by film, they could

Page 9686

1 indicate as some reference point from where then we could find the

2 location, because we made two missions there. The first mission was

3 unsuccessful, but the second one was.

4 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next -- bearing in mind the map that we

5 see now and the location you're talking about, let's go to the next one.

6 Page 63, here.

7 And we see this -- what looks like a main road and your arrow.

8 Can you orient us again? Where is this main road going to, where's the

9 arrow going to?

10 A. The picture faces north. The big hill is out of the picture, out

11 of the frame at the right. The asphalt road at the bottom goes towards

12 Nova Kasaba. At the top, Konjevic Polje, and then either Bratunac,

13 either Zvornik. So the initial witness was out of this picture to the

14 right. The big hill.

15 Q. And the black arrow?

16 A. The black arrow is the path to enter the valley of Cerska, which

17 is in between the two hills we see at the left of the picture.

18 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next photograph, 64.

19 What's this?

20 A. So this is facing west. So now we can see the hill we always

21 talk about, the observation point, the observation hill. And the dirt

22 road leading to the entrance of the valley.

23 Q. Let's go to the next photo.

24 A. This is taken shortly before entering the valley. And after the

25 point where the first Humvee is seen on the picture, then you enter woods

Page 9687

1 and you are out of sight of the hill, which is also something that the

2 witness said, that at one point he couldn't see them anymore.

3 Q. Let's go to the next photo.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just try to compare the previous one,

5 please.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes --

7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just wondering whether -- and even the one

8 before that.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: 64. The one -- it would be 64 in e-court. There

10 we go.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now that road that we see in the picture going

12 from top to bottom and then turning to the left of the picture, is that

13 the beginning of the black arrow in the --

14 THE WITNESS: Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- previous page.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, it is the black arrow, indeed.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So the first thick part of this line ending in a

18 thinner line with the black arrow, the first part, that is what we see --

19 and I'm just trying to --

20 THE WITNESS: Yeah, where the Humvee is and the bridge.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the bridge is then approximately where the

22 thick line --

23 THE WITNESS: Is ending.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- is ending and where the thin line is starting.

25 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.

Page 9688

1 JUDGE ORIE: And then we see that the river on the -- both on the

2 previous and on this one is more or less visible because of the bushes on

3 both sides --

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, you are correct.

5 JUDGE ORIE: -- of the river. Thank you.

6 Please proceed.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.

8 Q. I think we are now -- we should be. We've gone up that road and

9 now we're on 66 in e-court.

10 A. So this -- this picture is the suspect area we ended up finding.

11 Here, it is looking towards the entrance of the valley. This is

12 approximately, maybe 1 -- 1 -- let's -- not more than 2 kilometres inside

13 the valley. But we are now on this picture facing the entrance.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Is that approximately where we saw the black arrow

15 previously? The point of the arrow.

16 THE WITNESS: No. No, no. It is further inside the valley. It

17 is -- it is roughly where I did put the red dot on the picture of

18 page 44.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, already a bit into the valley --

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY:

23 Q. All right. Let's go to the next picture then. 67 in e-court.

24 A. This is another view of the same -- the same spot but looking in

25 the opposite direction. The vehicles are pointing their front towards

Page 9689

1 the entrance, but the picture is facing the direction of the end of the

2 Cerska valley, so it's ... so it is west.

3 Q. All right. Let's --

4 A. The -- still a little bit on this one, because we will see it

5 from other angles, where the colleague in blue is standing is an area we

6 will describe later as being the line of execution. And at the right of

7 the vehicles, you can see disturbed soil that we will mention later on

8 other pictures.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm confused now. You say the end of the valley.

10 That means west. Now I see the picture with the vehicles. If the

11 vehicles are heading for the end of the valley, then the picture is

12 facing east.

13 THE WITNESS: No. The front of the vehicles are facing the

14 entrance and the back of the vehicles are facing the end of the valley.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 THE WITNESS: The --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I understand. Yes.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY:

20 Q. Okay. Let's continue to the next -- the next picture. 68.

21 What's this?

22 A. This is also now seen from another angle, since on the previous

23 one it was not possible to see, but it is a steep slope that is at the

24 edge of this road. It was not visible on the previous one. It looked

25 like flat, but in reality it is quite a steep slope. That in fact we

Page 9690

1 will see it contains the bodies.

2 Q. Let's go to the next picture then.

3 A. On that --

4 Q. Who are these folks? What are you doing?

5 A. So these are the colleagues I was with for this mission. And,

6 here, we are probing this area. It was a preliminary mission in order to

7 find out if there was a future need for any exhumation of that spot. And

8 here we are probing the area. We did a three, three probes, three holes

9 in order to check what was under this soil.

10 Q. If we go to the next photo. 70.

11 What's this?

12 A. As a result of the first probe, we discovered human remains that

13 are visible at the bottom of the picture. One can clearly see a leg and

14 a shoe on this one.

15 Q. If we could go to the next photo. 71.

16 A. This is the result of the second probe, the second hole. And,

17 here, you can see a skull with some hair attached on it.

18 Q. And the hole that we see?

19 A. The hole we see, I would not be able to say anything about it

20 because the probes, we start them by what we call -- we call pick and

21 sniff. That means take an iron stick, you push it in the soil to probe,

22 and then you take it out and you smell. Depending on the smell, you

23 start or not dig. So I cannot exclude that this hole is for sure not

24 maybe a bullet-hole but just a result of the probe.

25 Q. All right. Let's go to the next photo. 72.

Page 9691

1 A. So this is the -- the finding of the third hole that we dug,

2 which is a body in a civilian jacket. And at the left is the skull.

3 Q. All right. Let's now go to 74.

4 Sorry, 74 is the next one. Next page in e-court.

5 And we see another United States aerial image from the graphics.

6 What is this?

7 A. So this is a picture we requested after. Since we had found the

8 place, we wanted to know if we could have an indication of date of

9 creation of this crime scene. You can see, first the picture dated the

10 5th July. This is the path going toward the valley, going -- at the end

11 of the Cerska valley and the area that we probed. On 27 July, one can

12 see disturbed soil, disturbed earth. I circled the area, and with two

13 boxes, one being in fact the location of the grave, and the -- the box at

14 the right is disturbed soil from the -- the hill at the opposite side of

15 the path. We will provide more pictures of this from the ground.

16 But it indicates that at July 5th there was nothing there. And

17 on 27, the site is there. So the only conclusion is that it is between

18 the 5th and the 27th. We do not have -- I mean, at that time, we did not

19 have a -- I mean, at that time we did not have aside the witness

20 testimony and we had the feeling it was the 13. We had no precise

21 indication aside that. I heard that since then there is more precise

22 information to precisely date this event.

23 Q. All right.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And these pictures are north/south?

25 THE WITNESS: These pictures are west oriented -- the top of the

Page 9692

1 picture is more or less the west. It's the end of the Cerska valley,

2 going towards the end of the Cerska valley .

3 MR. McCLOSKEY:

4 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page. 75 in e-court?

5 A. So here is the -- the situation seen from the ground. Vehicles

6 pointing the front towards the entrance of the valley. At the right of

7 the picture is the -- the location of the grave. So obviously where the

8 yellow markers are was the line where the people were made to -- to

9 stand, shot, and fall along the steep hill.

10 At the left of the picture, the excavator that was seen by the

11 witness took the soil and then covered the bodies, simply covered them

12 with this soil. This is pointed by the big yellow arrow. And the two

13 colleagues at the left at this moment are collecting shell casings. I

14 couldn't recall exactly how many we collected that day. It was a

15 preliminary mission, but this is where the firing line was.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, if you say "facing the entrance of

17 the valley," we are in the valley now. That would mean facing east, is

18 that --

19 THE WITNESS: Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY:

22 Q. And these yellow things on the ground, we see a 7 and a 6, what

23 is that for?

24 A. They mark the -- what at that moment is the estimate of the size

25 of the grave, so in fact the line on which the execution took place.

Page 9693

1 It's a rough estimate at that moment. But I would refer to -- later on

2 to a full exhumation report because this place was fully exhumed the

3 following year, I think.

4 Q. We have witnesses for that. Though, do you recall how many

5 bodies were found here?

6 A. Yes. 150. Which was our estimate, because we roughly counted

7 50 per bus, three buses, so we thought probably 150, and I think this is

8 more or less very precisely the final number.

9 Q. All right.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: How are we doing for time? I can't see the

11 watch --

12 JUDGE ORIE: We are at one hour from when we resumed. So that

13 would be -- if this would be an appropriate moment --

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: It would be.

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- we'll take a break. And we'll resume at

16 ten minutes past 12.00.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 --- Recess taken at 11.52 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

21 Meanwhile, again, I use the time to deal with MFI D189.

22 D189 was MFI'd during the testimony of Anthony Banbury, 7th of

23 February of this year, pending provision of the Defence of the B/C/S

24 translation. The Chamber has been informed by the Defence that the B/C/S

25 translation of Exhibit D189 has been uploaded in e-court under

Page 9694

1 doc ID 1D03-1002. The Chamber requests the Registry to attach this B/C/S

2 translation to the original and -- unless there would be any objections

3 by the Prosecution.

4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the person who is reviewing this is

5 unfortunately out for the remainder of this week. Could I suggest that

6 the Chamber go ahead with this, and if there's any problem with the

7 translation, we'll bring it to the attention of the Chamber on Monday.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then D189 is admitted into evidence. And we

9 expect the Prosecution to re-visit the matter, well, let's say, within

10 two weeks if there would be any problem as far as this translation is

11 concerned so that we could reconsider it.

12 [The witness takes the stand]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome back, Mr. Ruez.

14 Mr. McCloskey will continue his examination-in-chief.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Just to finish up Cerska, can you confirm that there -- there was

17 no survivor of this execution?

18 A. Not of our knowledge.

19 Q. And there -- there was no witness, to your knowledge, of anyone

20 that witnessed the actual execution?

21 A. No one at my knowledge.

22 Q. All right. Let's go on to the next site, Nova Kasaba, which I

23 don't -- it's 76, the next e-court page. And you've noted that in red

24 there as we're now getting very familiar with these villages.

25 Can we go to the next page. 77.

Page 9695

1 And if you could briefly tell us what these boxes are.

2 A. Yes. The orientation here is the top right is going towards

3 Nova Kasaba. The bottom left towards Konjevic Polje.

4 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Ruez. I just want to interrupt. The -- unless

5 asked, I don't want to you explain about the red box because I don't

6 believe the Judges will be hearing any evidence about that. So if you

7 could -- the two big boxes, just concentrate on that unless asked.

8 A. These two boxes show area of undisturbed soil. The two black

9 ones.

10 Q. Okay. And then let's go to the next photo. That first one was

11 dated 13 July. Now we see this one on this page, 78, dated 27 July.

12 And -- and the big boxes, what does that indicate to you?

13 A. These are the -- the same areas of undisturbed soil photographed

14 13 July and on 27 July. One can see that there are obvious traces of

15 disturbance at these locations.

16 Q. And let's go to the next page.

17 Tell us about this.

18 A. The photographs at the top show how the ground looks like. And

19 the yellow circles indicate locations that we can see one on the aerial

20 imagery and the other one seen from the ground.

21 Q. And can you remind us, we see this road that we are probably

22 getting familiar with.

23 On -- which way -- which town is in the direction right, if you

24 can remember?

25 A. Yes, yes. But since the two pictures are taken from a different

Page 9696

1 direction, on the bottom, the bottom black and white picture, the aerial,

2 bottom right is the direction of Nova Kasaba. The left is the direction

3 of Konjevic Polje.

4 Q. All right.

5 A. At the top, the coloured picture, the right is the direction of

6 Konjevic Polje; the left, the direction of Nova Kasaba.

7 Q. Okay. And did you have a chance to probe this disturbed soil we

8 can see in this aerial image?

9 A. Yes, we did that in 1996, in June 1996.

10 Q. Let's go to page 80, the next page.

11 What's this?

12 A. So this is the result of the probe that we did that day. We

13 opened -- we opened this -- this site and found what we believed was a

14 first layer of bodies. On this picture, in fact, it's a [indiscernible]

15 of bodies but there are six bodies on this picture. The aim was, as

16 usual, to find multiple remains, since we cannot spark any exhumation if

17 there are not multiple remains. If there would be only one, it would be

18 of no -- no real interest. So this one was the preliminary check before

19 any further exhumation.

20 Q. Okay. I'd --

21 A. On the right, it's me; and on the left, it's another colleague.

22 Q. All right. And did you -- let's go to the next photo. I believe

23 you took close-ups of this picture. So that's 81 in e-court.

24 Is this a close-up of one of the people who was next to you in

25 the grave?

Page 9697

1 A. Yes. From the previous picture, he is the one who is close to my

2 boots. And here we can see the back of a man with his arms -- I mean,

3 wearing a civilian shirt with green stripes, and he has ligatures at his

4 wrists. The hands are tied in his back.

5 Q. That's the yellow arrow?

6 A. This is the yellow arrow, yes.

7 Q. Okay. The next picture.

8 A. This is another close shot of another body found in this

9 location. At the left, can you see his head. Then civilian jacket.

10 Q. Let's go to the next picture.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question.

12 The civilian jacket, as you tell us, seems to be -- well, pretty

13 clean, which surprises slightly. Was there any manipulation before this

14 photograph was taken, or was it cleaned or was it ...

15 THE WITNESS: We cleaned these bodies by hand.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'm mainly talking about the jacket at

17 this moment.

18 THE WITNESS: The jacket, same thing. We took the soil that was

19 on top of it, we took it away.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But has it been removed, cleaned, and then

21 replaced or --

22 THE WITNESS: No, no. Not at all. No, no. We just opened this

23 first layer. Then refilled the hole as it was, waiting for the full

24 exhumation to take place. We didn't remove any item. We just cleaned

25 the soil on the surface, cleaned the soil off the bodies. The jacket was

Page 9698

1 not taken off this man at all.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you wipe it off --

3 THE WITNESS: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- the dust and the --

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Please proceed.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY:

8 Q. And would that be the same process you did at Cerska, so you just

9 exposed the bodies, photographed them, and then covered them up for later

10 exhumation?

11 A. Absolutely.

12 Q. Let's go -- well, we are at the next page.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was this the same body? We see a bit of the blue jacket that we

15 just saw.

16 A. It is the same one. What you see at the bottom right is a head

17 of another body which is underneath the body we saw. The interest of

18 this one is that -- it was visible on the previous picture but this one

19 has the hands attached in his back as well with -- with an iron -- not

20 iron. I mean, a metal, a metal rope which is very flexible metal and

21 that you can easily use to fix things but also attach people. This type

22 of metal is quite common in the area.

23 Q. So which yellow arrow is pointing at this -- what we would call a

24 wire?

25 A. Yeah, the wire is the left arrow.

Page 9699

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. And the right arrow points to the wedding ring of this man. It

3 is his finger, his fingers and a wedding ring.

4 Q. Now let's go to another of the sites that were thought to be or

5 reported to be possible execution sites, the Jadar river which we now --

6 is that site marked in red here?

7 A. On this photo -- yes, this is the location, the rough -- I mean,

8 the location of this next site.

9 Q. All right. And so if we just visualise that, that's that road

10 north going towards Zvornik that we've seen before.

11 So let's now go to 85. Another photograph we've seen before but

12 we now have this red arrow. What is that about?

13 A. So, first of all, the blue box points where the hangar in which

14 the -- the witness claims having been kept prior being put on board of

15 the bus. It happened at random that that day there was a bus just next

16 to this hangar but picture date was 1997. And the red arrows points the

17 direction towards which this bus would lead this group of 16 prisoners,

18 and it points to the entrance of -- it's a kind of canyon, in fact. It's

19 very, very narrow access to the Drina River that then leads towards

20 Zvornik.

21 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next photo for that.

22 What does this tell us?

23 A. So this is a view of what I just said, narrow valley.

24 The -- it is pointing direction south here, so this is the

25 direction from where the bus came, then drove along this -- the road

Page 9700

1 going towards Zvornik in between these two steep hills.

2 Q. Just to be clear, the arrow is -- what direction is the red arrow

3 pointing?

4 A. It's pointing towards Zvornik and towards the north.

5 Q. And can you describe to us those two lines we see underneath the

6 red line? It looks --

7 A. Yes. The first one is the asphalt road and the shiny line is the

8 Jadar river.

9 Q. All right.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The first one means that one next to the red

11 arrow.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY:

15 Q. All right. And so -- so I take it by this -- had -- have we hit

16 the spot yet that you were looking for on -- or we must continue up the

17 canyon towards Zvornik?

18 A. We have to continue a bit. [Indiscernible] bus-stop location

19 that we are going to hit first.

20 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next photo.

21 A. So this is just before arriving at the spot the prisoners were

22 unloaded. It's again to show what type of landscape it is and also

23 remote place. It's a remote place. It is quite well hidden, one can

24 say.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And do we see the cars driving on the road which is

Page 9701

1 indicated on the previous picture by the dotted red line?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is, and the vehicles are driving like the

3 bus would do it that day, towards the north.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in the direction of the arrow.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY:

8 Q. All right. Now, like the last sites you've described, are you

9 looking for the site described by a particular witness?

10 A. Yes, indeed. Since it was in no way possible for us alone to

11 find the location, we had to bring the witness in the area. We did this,

12 we couldn't do it before. I think we did it 1998.

13 Q. All right. Let's -- let's go to the next -- the next shot, which

14 is 88.

15 Here we see a -- from the air, a tire of some sort?

16 A. Yeah. It's the tire of a Black Hawk helicopter. It's a picture

17 taken from the air. It shows the location where we stopped and which is

18 the so-called bus-stop. It's an area where in -- because of the narrow

19 road, it is an area where a bus can easily stop. It is where the witness

20 told us he was unloaded from the bus and walked towards the river, which

21 is the -- the arrow that I added to the picture is the access path to

22 what he claims being -- the execution spot.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And could we ask, in which direction is going to the

24 right top. Is that north? And to the left, further down, is that to the

25 south?

Page 9702

1 THE WITNESS: Yes. Top right is towards Zvornik. And the left

2 towards Konjevic Polje.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY:

4 Q. All right. Can we go to the next photograph.

5 What is this?

6 A. This is the area where the witness brought us to, that he

7 recognised as being the -- the spot where he was made to stand facing the

8 river and among -- with the 16 others was shot.

9 We were at this moment trying to find shell casings in this

10 location. The -- we can only see the witness -- we can see his trousers.

11 Here, the man with black trousers. And we are at this moment looking for

12 shell casings there.

13 Q. Did you find any?

14 A. No. We couldn't implement the story of this witness. We

15 couldn't find any body. We couldn't find shell casings. But the

16 following picture might provide a possible explanation for that.

17 Q. All right. Let's go to 90.

18 A. He -- this witness claims that once he was shot, he -- he fell in

19 the water and succeeded to float on the river. Crossed the opposite side

20 and then gave other reference points that we found.

21 The thing is that since we did this search in 1998, we do not

22 know how this river flows, really, during spring, summer, winter time.

23 And, as you can see here, it seems that it happens that the water is

24 quite high. You can see these logs on the -- on the other bank of the

25 river. We had additional photographs with items hanging at quite a

Page 9703

1 height above the level of the water, so one could assume that the river

2 washed away shell casings. Maybe even bodies, if they were not

3 collected. It is very difficult to collect in such a place. I would not

4 believe that anyone went to collect the bodies here, but no one can say

5 for sure.

6 Q. Can you give us one example of -- of what you're able to confirm

7 from his -- his account after he was shot? Any locations, anything?

8 A. Yes. He says that, on the opposite side, there was a military

9 structure, and, indeed, very close by this place was the location of the

10 compound of the so-called Drina Wolves.

11 Q. And you -- did you find that yourselves -- yourself?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. But I mean, with the assistance of the intelligence we could

15 collect in the area.

16 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether or not you saw the -- a bullet-hole

17 in his back, or a photograph of it?

18 A. Oh, yes, indeed. I mean, he provided his medical -- medical

19 information. I won't say the name, but he even provides the name of the

20 police personnel who shot him.

21 Q. All right. Let's go onto the next one, which you've labelled the

22 Kravica warehouse. And there will be other numerous witnesses on this so

23 we do want to get through the basics of this, Mr. Ruez, to save a little

24 time.

25 Let's start. We see the blue and red. Can you briefly describe

Page 9704

1 the blue and the red, how they relate to each other, Sandici?

2 A. Yes. The blue is the rough position of the meadow of Sandici we

3 showed previously, and the right spot is the also approximate location of

4 the Kravica warehouse.

5 The next photograph will show that the distance is very -- a

6 short distance.

7 Q. Let's go to that. 93.

8 And orient us with this, could you?

9 A. Mm-hm. The picture is facing the direction towards Bratunac. I

10 am -- I take -- I took this picture at the left of this two-storage

11 building and the little structure we talked about. So it's a clear view

12 towards the warehouse. The Sandici meadow is at the left of the picture

13 out of frame, it's in my back at the left, and the dotted arrow points to

14 the Kravica warehouse.

15 Q. Let's go to the next shot.

16 And, again, orient us which direction is Bratunac and which is

17 Konjevic Polje?

18 A. Top left of the picture is direction Bratunac. And, here, it's a

19 helicopter view. Just at the bottom left of the picture but also just --

20 in fact, just at the limit of the picture is the meadow, the Sandici

21 meadow. But this gives you a clear indication of the distance, since one

22 group -- I mean, one survivor says he was taken on board of the bus and

23 then another group was taken by foot. This is the distance.

24 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot. 95.

25 Again, which -- which way is Bratunac?

Page 9705

1 A. The blue arrow points the direction of Bratunac. So the people

2 were coming from the right where the Sandici meadow is. Only one -- one

3 building of this warehouse complex was used for this event. It's the one

4 that is along the side of the road, and it is marked with the red box.

5 Q. And did you -- are you getting your information about this

6 warehouse from two survivors?

7 A. Indeed, yes. Two survivors. One from the east part and one from

8 the west part. The west being the left picture and the east, right.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. No, sorry. It's the opposite. Because we are facing south here.

11 Mm-hm. We are not facing the north. We are facing south. So Bratunac

12 is at the left, east.

13 Q. There will be a test on these geographic locations afterward, but

14 we have that ready for you later.

15 All right. Let's go to the next photograph. 96.

16 The snow is back.

17 A. Yes. But to get pictures at a date as close as possible to the

18 events, this is a stop that we made during the so-called Shattuck mission

19 at the end of January 1996. We made a stop at the warehouse in order to

20 take some photographs and use the opportunity also to scratch a sample of

21 what we found on the walls.

22 Q. All right. Let's see the next page. We can see what that meant.

23 And what is this? It seems the other side of the warehouse.

24 A. Yes. The photographs of January, it's to match with the aerials

25 so that we can determine, you know, the story about the east part and the

Page 9706

1 story about the west part.

2 Q. Is this tied in to the location of the two victims you were

3 talking about?

4 A. All the information on this place is -- everything is coming from

5 these two survivors.

6 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page. 93.

7 And we see -- again, it looks look that nice green aerial from

8 perhaps your helicopter?

9 A. Yes, yes, absolutely. And it is to show by comparing it with the

10 black and white aerial photographs that were the better -- better version

11 of how it looks, really, on the ground.

12 Q. All right. So that's another US aerial image dated 13 July.

13 And you have circled in yellow what?

14 A. In yellow, I circled two buses. The -- the witness who claims

15 having survived an execution on this east part said he was taken there by

16 bus. And apparently one bus after that stayed blocked on the spot

17 because of a flat tire.

18 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot.

19 This appears to be a similar shot --

20 A. Yes. So now we are going to deal with the west part. So this

21 survivor in the west part was marched there within a large group. They

22 arrived at this warehouse and entered through a small -- a small door,

23 which is most certainly the door which is at the -- at the left of the

24 squared box.

25 Q. I think you can mark on this -- just -- I'm not sure -- there's a

Page 9707

1 lot of potential doors. Could you mark the door you're talking about?

2 A. You want me to mark the one?

3 Q. I --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, or clearly explain which door you're referring

5 to. That's --

6 THE WITNESS: Yes. On the square box there is one big hole which

7 was made by a bulldozer --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes -- before we start marking, if the witness can

9 explain to us to which he -- to what he refers, then -- is it the opening

10 at the right-hand side --

11 THE WITNESS: No, it should be the one at the left.

12 JUDGE ORIE: At the left which is composed of three separate or

13 even four separate -- or is it the small, the lower one. Yes. It's

14 marked now.

15 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it has been marked. Then I take it that --

17 THE WITNESS: Sign it? I have to put my initials on it?

18 JUDGE ORIE: No, not necessarily. But we have to separate it

19 and --

20 Now may I take it that we do not want the whole of the book --

21 THE WITNESS: Yeah no.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- attached to this marking.

23 Madam Registrar, is there any way to separate this page as marked

24 by the witness?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, we can save it separately as a

Page 9708

1 marked photo.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. And that would receive number?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Number P1129, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Unless there's any need for any other markings on

5 this one, Mr. McCloskey, P -- and let me now make no mistake. P1129 is

6 admitted into evidence.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: What would be the 65 ter number of this P or -- or

8 the --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar has separated it so there's no

10 65 ter number yet.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As the same number the -- as the saved picture,

12 they receive IC numbers.

13 JUDGE ORIE: They receive IC numbers.

14 Mr. McCloskey, I was informed when you referred to page 93 on

15 page 66, line 8, you apparently wanted to refer to -- I don't know

16 whether you did it or whether it was someone else's slight error, but

17 it's 98 from what I understand.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I take your word for that, of course.

19 And I --

20 JUDGE ORIE: It's to avoid that others -- let me -- I'll check in

21 e-court immediately. That's ... let me see. 93, 98.

22 What we have on our screen now. Let me just check.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: On the record it says:

24 "Let's go to the next page, 93."

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what we have now on our screen is -- it

Page 9709

1 seems to be page 99 in e-court out of 274.

2 That's what we see on our screen now. And that is also the

3 separate page which was marked by the witness.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I -- I think I read the 8 as a 3, and ...

5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps. And then, finally, it turned out that it

6 should be 99.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.

9 Q. Now we were -- you were talking about the account of the victim.

10 The door he said. You identified the door that you thought may have been

11 the door he went into, and did you go inside and see if you could

12 determine anything inside that matched his story or resembled his story?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what were you looking for in there when you went inside the

15 warehouse to -- what was his basic -- very briefly, his story that you

16 were seeing if you could find?

17 A. Due to his account of events, we were looking mainly for

18 bullet-holes, explosive traces, and blood and what was human features

19 that could be found in it.

20 During the very first visit, the only thing that I could do was

21 scratch suspect -- suspect trace from the wall which appeared to be

22 human, and then we returned during several missions to take more samples

23 of all these elements. And there was then a full -- a full forensic

24 examination done of this place. There is a full report on what was found

25 in this location.

Page 9710

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Mr. McCloskey, sorry to deal with the matter

2 again.

3 When you said, page 66, line 8, "93," you should have said "98."

4 Then page 66, line 20, you said, "Let's go to the next shot," that then

5 is page 99 in e-court. And it is page 99 which was separated and marked

6 and was separately admitted.

7 Where I said 98 should be 99, we had already moved to the next

8 page. That -- should that be -- I would like to make life easier for

9 anyone who comes after us.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, yes. This sequence is critical as --

12 of course.

13 Q. All right. So let's go into the warehouse. The next page,

14 e-court 100.

15 A. So this is a photograph from the inside of this west part of the

16 warehouse. One can see quite a number of bullet-holes in -- in the

17 walls. And the traces, you can see the rubbed traces and various reddish

18 material there appeared to be tested as human blood. Also human hair and

19 things like skin.

20 Q. Let's go to the next one. 101.

21 A. Yeah, so it's the -- another -- another area of the warehouse

22 with black traces that happened to -- being explosive residues. And

23 again, a certain number of human features glued on the wall.

24 Q. All right. Now let's go to 102.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask what does the number 9 in the previous

Page 9711

1 photograph depict?

2 THE WITNESS: Oh. Yes, on -- on the -- there are indeed labels

3 on this wall. We had with us a crime scene technician named John Gerns

4 who took samples and labelled them according to his own way of doing.

5 This sampling was also a kind of a preliminary step in case we would not

6 be able to return to this area or that the place would be destroyed, so

7 each time we did as much as we could during a very short period of time

8 in the area. It was always go in, go out. We couldn't spend time on

9 these places for security reasons also.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But what does the number 9 indicate?

11 THE WITNESS: He took a sample at that location and labelled it

12 9. But I don't have his report --

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That clarifies the matter.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just follow up. Does that explain the 11

15 on the previous picture?

16 THE WITNESS: Indeed.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And then on this picture, in small figures, you

18 also have 1, 2 and 3, or what looks like minus 1, minus 2, minus 3, and

19 then minus something that I can't see. What do those indicate?

20 THE WITNESS: This is the labelling that John Gerns did of his

21 samples.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY:

24 Q. All right. Let's go now to the next page. 102.

25 Where does this fit into anything?

Page 9712

1 A. The -- the survivor claims that once he entered the warehouse,

2 shots were -- bursts of fire were coming from the -- the open windows and

3 grenades were thrown inside. We tried to check this part of his story

4 during a search of the surroundings of the warehouse, found elements

5 including a live grenade that was obviously forgotten there. It was just

6 in front of the warehouse close to the road.

7 Q. I hope that's not in the evidence locker.

8 A. It is not. It was handed over for destruction.

9 Q. Thank you. The next page. 103.

10 A. So this is one of grenade handles that we found at the back of

11 the warehouse.

12 Q. All right. Let's go to --

13 A. It is what is left over once the grenade is thrown. This piece

14 of metal stays there at the location it has been thrown. It is something

15 left behind of the grenade, hand-grenade.

16 Q. Okay. 104.

17 Do you have any idea what this is?

18 A. I thought we would take them out but since they are here, it's no

19 certainty but he -- the witness said also that RPGs were fired from the

20 outside to inside. This could be - I just say "could be" - a hole made

21 by an anti-tank rocket.

22 The next picture shows it a bit better with the direction of

23 possible firing from the window.

24 Q. 105, then, please, next.

25 Is this from the inside or outside?

Page 9713

1 A. This is from the outside at the back of the warehouse. The

2 window is facing the direction of the asphalt road.

3 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. 106.

4 A. The survivor of the west part of the warehouse claimed that once

5 he entered the -- the warehouse, he -- people were compressed inside, and

6 the reason why he managed to survive is that he crawled into a little

7 structure inside the warehouse that he calls the -- a guard house. It's

8 a -- it was a -- a room inside this location.

9 The first time we went there, the first mission, in January,

10 there was nothing like this inside, so it was a problem because no

11 explanation how he could have survived with all this. But, in fact,

12 returning there in April, the next picture will show that just at the --

13 at the entrance, indeed, once inside, there was -- there was something

14 there that had been destroyed in -- probably in the process of taking the

15 bodies out with heavy equipment and the traces of it are extremely

16 obvious.

17 Q. Can you tell us -- I'll go to that. But what's this yellow arrow

18 on the current photo?

19 A. The arrow marks the direction of entering and the location where

20 this little structure was supposed to be.

21 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. 107.

22 A. So this is what -- I believe is what is left of so-called guard

23 house inside. One can see that at the bottom there was a room here with

24 a -- a blue -- the blue tiles at the bottom and the points where this

25 structure was attached to the wall. It obviously has been completely

Page 9714

1 destroyed.

2 Q. All right. Let's go to 108.

3 Where is this and what -- what is it?

4 A. There -- there was a little pile of rubbish at the -- at one of

5 the sides of this warehouse. We went through a manual search of this

6 rubbish, and this is what we could -- we could find. There are shell

7 casings, a piece of licna karta, certain number of human bones. They

8 were assessed as being human by Professor Bill Haglund. And a few items,

9 including fake teeth, that was left behind by those who cleaned the area.

10 Q. Let's go to 109.

11 A. So after -- after the execution at the west part took place the

12 execution at the east part, according to the person who survived this

13 part, who heard the noises of the first row of killings.

14 Q. Okay. And so --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you could just -- I'm sorry to interrupt,

16 Mr. McCloskey.

17 If we just go back to previous picture with collections of shell

18 casings.

19 There are things that look like books there. Are you able to

20 tell us what they are?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's the cover page of a licna karta. Licna

22 karta is the ID card. But there were no names in -- in these. It's only

23 the --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The cover.

25 THE WITNESS: -- the cover.

Page 9715

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. All right. So 109 was identifying the -- the other side of the

4 warehouse for the next survivor who you've just explained his account

5 briefly.

6 And let's go to 110. What is this?

7 A. So this is a photograph of this east part taken from the

8 entrance. So this is supposed to be the area where the people were

9 stored, sitting -- sitting with this wall in their back.

10 Q. And --

11 A. And --

12 Q. Just --

13 A. -- one can see traces of bullets fired against this wall.

14 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. 111.

15 You've got a yellow arrow you've marked?

16 A. Yes. Unfortunately, during the process of this warehouse by the

17 forensic experts, they processed only one part of the warehouse and

18 forgot the other part. So, at one point, I passed again by this

19 warehouse and scratched a sample marked with the yellow arrow which is

20 a -- looks like a blood-stain, and this was analysed by the Dutch

21 forensic lab as being human blood.

22 Q. Let's go to 112.

23 Is this related to the previous picture?

24 A. Yes, it's a close-up of this blood-stain.

25 Q. All right. Let's go to 113.

Page 9716

1 We're still at that site of the warehouse. We see you put a

2 yellow arrow.

3 A. Yeah. The -- the witness says that he climbed to jump out of the

4 window at the back of the warehouse, the first window, and the arrow

5 points to the window that he is supposed having jumped through.

6 Q. Okay. Let's go to 114.

7 What's this?

8 A. This is a view of the back of this warehouse. The first window

9 when you go towards the left is the window from where he says having

10 jumped. He -- there was a corn field at that time, and, indeed, behind

11 the warehouse what you can see, the little sticks, it's leftover of corn.

12 Now, it's a view of the location he says having escaped.

13 Q. To be clear, if we start from the right side of the photo we're

14 looking at and move towards the left, is -- is it that first --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- one we come to?

17 A. The first one going from left to right.

18 Q. With a white reflection of some sort in it?

19 A. Of snow.

20 Q. Okay. All right. Let's go to the next one. 115.

21 A. So this is a view of the front of the warehouse. No -- no

22 specific claim of survivors for this one. But in order to show that this

23 man was probably not the only one who tried to survive by escaping,

24 jumping windows, I could find an element that assists.

25 Q. So what are you --

Page 9717

1 A. [Overlapping speakers] ...

2 Q. What are focussing on in this picture?

3 A. On this one, I would mark it with the pen, there is a shoe

4 trace --

5 Q. That sort of complicates things --

6 A. Okay. Just underneath the window that is in the middle of the

7 picture, above the first bullet-hole underneath is a shoe trace. We have

8 a close-up on the next picture.

9 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next picture. 116.

10 A. So it's a shoe trace, but it's a reverse shoe. It's not the shoe

11 of someone who is climbing; it is of a shoe of someone who is getting

12 out. Interest of it is again to show that this witness is -- might not

13 be the only one who tried to escape by jumping out through the windows.

14 Q. So is the window we saw in the previous photo right above this --

15 the shoe print?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Now let's go to 117.

18 We see Studio B again. So I take it this is a Petrovic --

19 what is -- what is this?

20 A. This is a still from a few seconds of footage filmed by

21 Zoran Petrovic who arrived on that spot on July 13 together with

22 Colonel Borovcanin. These are part of the, in brackets, lost pictures

23 that were found later. And it shows -- the main -- the main entrance,

24 the one that was then partially destroyed by a bulldozer who entered the

25 warehouse to pick out -- take out the bodies.

Page 9718

1 Q. And where do you get that account from that a bulldozer came to

2 take out bodies?

3 A. From the witness who survived in this location and stayed there

4 during several hours prior escaping by night-time.

5 Q. And what do you use this photo for in your -- in your book

6 analysis? If we go -- the previous -- excuse me, the next line of

7 photos, you have a particular purpose for this, I believe.

8 A. Yes. It was mainly relevant for the trial of Colonel Borovcanin.

9 It's much less, to be honest, here. The question was, was this execution

10 finished or was it still ongoing. According to analysis made on these

11 walls, I tend to believe that it was ongoing since they are -- after this

12 shot, this picture, there are additional bullet-holes to be found on the

13 walls, so one could think that someone later on fired on this wall. This

14 is not the case. It would mean that there were still shots fired after

15 this piece of footage.

16 Q. All right. Let's briefly go back to the trial video, exhibit

17 65 ter 28780, from 35:00 to 36:55, V000-9267, to play this -- this clip.

18 [Video-clip played]

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.

20 Q. We've ended that clip at 36:55:6.

21 Is that slow motion clip where you took your still from, if we

22 could go back to 117 in e-court of your book.

23 So we -- we see this. Is this the Kravica warehouse you've been

24 talking about?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 9719

1 Q. And is that basically a still of the -- of what we just saw, the

2 drive-by of the warehouse?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. And can you remind us what direction is the car driving in as

5 it's driving by? We can see this pictures pass.

6 A. So from the right to the left, so going back to the direction of

7 Bratunac.

8 Q. All right. Now let's go through these next shots briefly. Let's

9 go to 118.

10 And if you could just explain what this was about.

11 A. Just to show that the -- this door again was broken by some heavy

12 equipment. One year later, they started reconstructing a part of it, but

13 these markings in blue, I'm not the one who put them on it. They don't

14 fit with the demo. Again, we could -- if you want, in a bit of time, go

15 to bullet-hole if there is still a need for this demonstration.

16 Q. No, I think we should just go through this --

17 A. I won't go through the blue ones. I didn't put them and I don't

18 agree with them.

19 Q. Okay. Don't know where they came from.

20 So let's go to the next page. 119.

21 A. So in red is the missing part. The missing part is -- is bigger

22 than what one could think just by looking at the picture at the bottom.

23 And depending on the angle as well as -- the height, as well as the --

24 the -- how large it is, looks also a bit different. The references are

25 the yellow markings with the round circles that put in relation the

Page 9720

1 situation after and before the destruction.

2 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page.

3 A. Of interest it's to show the height of the way the openings were

4 made.

5 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page.

6 A. So, here, you have what I believe was the -- the way the

7 situation was looking at the time, what it was -- the size of this

8 opening.

9 At the bottom of the picture, at the bottom right, you can see

10 one bar next to the door. That's -- from top to -- bottom from top, the

11 bar next to the right of the frame. And on the picture, the big one, I

12 had to re-put this bar with the computer to show where it was.

13 So it shows again what were the missing parts of this.

14 Q. All right. Let's go on to 122.

15 A. Okay. So, here, it puts the -- puts the two pictures in

16 relation. It is more or less the same but still at the bottom right is

17 not exactly, I think, the one we saw before. It's another angle. Never

18 mind.

19 Q. Okay. 123.

20 A. So at the moment of the events when Zoran Petrovic filmed the

21 place, at the top, on the right, there are -- there is a marking with

22 bullet-holes and also at the left of the picture in the red box are

23 locations of -- of impacts.

24 Q. And -- and to be clear, the top photograph is from the Petrovic

25 film.

Page 9721

1 A. The one at the top which has the logo Studio B is the one from

2 the Zoran Petrovic film.

3 Q. From 13 July?

4 A. Yes, from 13 July. And the bottom one is taken in April 1996.

5 Q. And what does this comparison tell us?

6 A. The next picture should show it.

7 Q. Okay. Let's go to 124.

8 A. It shows here that there are additional pockmarks in April 1996

9 that were not on the wall at the time Zoran Petrovic filmed the film.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I -- looking at the book, we seem to

11 be close to concluding a certain portion.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to take the break once we are there. I

14 don't know whether we are there yet or ...

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. This is precisely it.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then -- could the witness first be escorted

17 out of the courtroom.

18 We take a break of 20 minutes.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 JUDGE ORIE: And we will resume at 22 minutes -- no, 27 minutes

21 past 1.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 1.12 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 1.34 p.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

25 Meanwhile, I will deliver a brief oral decision.