130607ED

Page 12288

1 Q. Witness --

2 MS. HASAN: We don't have very good sound on the video we were

3 watching yesterday. What I propose to do is use the version of the

4 video, the Petrovic video that we received from the BBC which has

5 superior sound quality and doesn't appear to have any problem being

6 played. It has the same transcript and because I want some of the sound

7 to be heard today, my proposal is we proceed with that one. It means the

8 time codes are slightly off by a few seconds from what's shown in

9 65 ter 5759, the road book, and the figures we were referring to earlier.

10 If that's agreeable then ...

11 JUDGE ORIE: Has it been verified that the content is exactly the

12 same as the content of the video uploaded into e-court?

13 MS. HASAN: I believe the witness has already testified about

14 that but we can ask again.

15 Q. Witness, could you advise whether the content of the video

16 Petrovic raw footage we received from the BBC, on whether or not that is

17 identical to the raw footage from Mr. Petrovic?

18 A. Yes, these two materials are the same materials.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I don't know whether the witness was

20 involved in uploading the material in e-court because that's my primary

21 concern, that what we see is the same as what is in e-court.

22 I do understand that the witness has not been involved in

23 uploading it in this case in e-court. But let's assume and everyone is

24 very alert on any possible discrepancies.

25 I do not hear opposition at this moment from the Defence so

Page 12289

1 please proceed as you had suggested.

2 MS. HASAN: Just so that the record is clear, this is

3 65 ter 22287. It's V000-3915 and that's exactly what was uploaded into

4 e-court.

5 Q. Now, we left off in the road book, 65 ter 5759, and on pages 56

6 and 57, and I'm going to dispense with the identifications of individuals

7 that have been captured on page 56 as these are -- these can be found in

8 the Bosnian Muslim ID book that was just entered into evidence,

9 Exhibit P1532, at pages 14, pages 16, and page 30. So those

10 identifications can be found there.

11 MS. HASAN: If we can turn now to the next page, 58 and 59, and

12 start playing the video. Sorry, I understand the witness doesn't have a

13 copy of 65 ter 5759. If we could just hand that to him, please.

14 Okay. So we'll start playing the video at time code 23 minutes

15 and 31 seconds. That's not exactly where we left off because there is a

16 bit of discrepancy in the timing. This doesn't affect any of the

17 content. If we could just start playing it there for a moment, please.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MS. HASAN: Can you just pause it there? Thank you. That's at

20 23 minutes and 50 seconds.

21 Q. Witness, we just saw a second or two of footage that showed an

22 image of Mr. Karadzic appearing, what appears to be on television. Can

23 you explain what that is and why -- why it's there?

24 A. This image of course is not related at all to the recordings made

25 in the area of Kravica and Sandici and Pervani, Potocari, but this -- in

Page 12290

1 fact, the image was inserted to the tape or according to Mr. Petrovic,

2 his explanation was that he used an old tape, not new tape, and -- for

3 recordings these events in this area, that it could be also -- also that

4 a few seconds of interview of Mr. Karadzic who -- was left on the tape

5 before he used it during his trip to Bosnia.

6 MS. HASAN: If we could continue running the tape for a few more

7 seconds.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MS. HASAN: If we could pause it there. That's at 24 minutes and

10 17 seconds.

11 Q. In 65 ter 5759, the road book at page 58, and in the clip we just

12 viewed, we saw a man wearing some blue boots which is captured in video

13 still image B. Can you tell us where he's coming from and in what

14 direction he's headed?

15 A. This man with blue boots and probably leather jacket, he's coming

16 from the parting, from the hills, he's passing through destroyed white

17 house across the road from Sandici meadow and he's heading towards

18 Sandici meadow itself.

19 Q. Is this what you've tried to reconstruct on page 59 of

20 65 ter 5759 in the images there?

21 A. Yeah, it is correct. Your Honours, if you look at my picture

22 from page 59, picture 1, and the still from Petrovic video, still A, you

23 see two pillars of probably the fence at that time located in -- near

24 this destroyed white house. We have the same pillars on my picture from

25 2006. For example, I'm referring to this part of this picture comparing

Page 12291

1 these two pictures.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask a question. I don't think I

3 understand your previous answer, Mr. Blaszczyk. You're saying this man

4 with blue boots and probably leather jacket, he is coming from the hills.

5 He's passing the destroyed white house across from Sandici meadow and

6 he's heading towards Sandici meadow. Now he can't be coming from there

7 and still going there at the same time.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course, Your Honour.

9 The destroyed white house is located across the Sandici meadow

10 and this man is coming from the destroyed white house towards Sandici

11 meadow.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 MS. HASAN: Now, when you testified earlier, and this is at

14 transcript page 11587, I had asked you about the timings of killings that

15 took place at Kravica warehouse, and you testified that they happened

16 shortly after Mr. Borovcanin ordered the traffic to be stopped. And you

17 also made a reference to machine-gun fire and explosions that can be

18 heard later on the tape. What I'd like to do is play that portion of the

19 tape and if you could tell us whether that's the portion where we can

20 hear the gunfire and explosions.

21 So this is 65 ter 22287 starting at 22 seconds -- sorry, 22

22 minutes, 58 seconds.

23 So for the record we're actually going back in the video just

24 slightly.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 12292

1 THE WITNESS: Could you stop here, please. Your Honours, in the

2 back sound we hear some machine-guns and also I hear some explosions. I

3 believe this is hand grenade explosions. At least one and later on we

4 can hear another one.

5 MS. HASAN: Let's -- so we just stopped it at 23 minutes and 10

6 seconds. Let's just roll the tape for a few more seconds to see if we

7 hear the other explosion you are referring to.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: This one.

10 MS. HASAN: We pause it now at 23 minutes and 26 seconds.

11 Your Honours, I don't know if you'd like to hear the tape again

12 all the way through or if that suffices.

13 JUDGE ORIE: It suffices.

14 MS. HASAN:

15 Q. Now, besides what you have concluded from the timing of the

16 Petrovic video itself and the explosions that we've just heard on the

17 video, has your investigation revealed any other evidence about the

18 timing of the Kravica warehouse massacre?

19 A. Most of the evidence regarding Kravica execution or massacre came

20 from witness statements and of course the Petrovic material was

21 supporting material and very helpful material to determine the time when

22 this execution occurred.

23 Q. And what is it that those witness statements have revealed to you

24 in this respect as to -- as far as the timing is concerned?

25 A. The witnesses who were interviewed by OTP, by myself as well, a

Page 12293

1 few of them, they confirmed that executions started sometime in afternoon

2 on the 13th of July, 1995. It was about 5.00, 6.00 afternoon.

3 Q. And was there any documentary evidence that assisted you as well?

4 A. Yes. Also there is some documents. For example, it was -- we

5 know that during this incident, this execution in Kravica warehouse at

6 least one Serbian police officer was killed, another one was wounded.

7 Another soldier was wounded. And these two -- two soldiers were taken,

8 they ended up in Bratunac health centre on the 13th of July 1995. It was

9 about 5.00. I believe one of them was admitted to the Bratunac health

10 centre, it was half past 5.00 in the afternoon; another one was 20

11 minutes to 6.00; and the body of officer who was killed during this

12 events in Kravica, I think the admission time is about 1900 hours in

13 Bratunac health centre.

14 MS. HASAN: Now, Your Honours --

15 Q. Sorry, Witness, are you referring to the Bratunac health centre

16 log, is that the document you're referring to?

17 A. Yes, this is correct. I am referring to Bratunac health centre

18 log.

19 MS. HASAN: And this is, Your Honours, Exhibit P1477. You may

20 recall taking a look at that.

21 Q. Witness, can you tell us the names of the persons you are

22 referring to that were injured?

23 A. Rade Cuturic, also the commander -- in fact the commander of

24 the -- the deputy commander of Sekovici command, he burned him -- his

25 hand. Another man who was wounded during this event was a member of

Page 12294

1 Red Berets of Bratunac Brigade. His name is Miroslav Stanojevic and

2 Kristo Dragisev -- Dragacevac, I believe his name was Dragasevac, was

3 killed during this incident.

4 MS. HASAN: If we return now to the video, 65 ter 22287. And we

5 play it from 23 -- let's just continue playing it from where we left off.

6 23 minutes and 26 seconds.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MS. HASAN: Can we just pause it right there, please. That's at

9 24 minutes and 12 seconds.

10 Q. Witness, we heard a screeching car, what sounded like a

11 screeching car, and if we look at the transcript, there is a call on the

12 Motorola and the transcript reads "Laser 2 is calling you." Do you know

13 whose code-name laser 2 is?

14 A. Laser 2, this is Ljubisa Borovcanin the commander of the --

15 deputy commander of the special police brigade.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, before we continue, I think the witness

17 referred to the 15th of July several times, there was a -- it may have

18 been misunderstood. I was in doubt as a matter of fact. But I see that

19 at least the Bratunac medical centre log, the entry is on the 13th of

20 July and since I now found twice 15th of July I would like to have that

21 clarified.

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, the log is from the 13th of July,

23 1995, one three July, 1995.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you always want to refer to the 13th

25 rather than the 15th as is in the transcript a couple of times.

Page 12295

1 THE WITNESS: It's correct, Your Honour. Just most of the --

2 these events was recorded on the 13th, especially on this road,

3 Pervani-Kravica-Sandici was recorded on the 13th of July 1995 not on the

4 15th.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You see that there are two references, page 7,

6 line 17, Ms. Hasan, and page 7, line 23. The one has the date of the

7 event in Kravica and the other one referring to the log. Please proceed.

8 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Mr. President if we can continue playing

9 the video from 24 minutes and 12 -- actually let's just stop right there.

10 Keep it right there for a moment.

11 Q. Now we just left off talking about the call sign laser 2 and you

12 told us that's the call sign for Mr. Borovcanin. On what do you base

13 your knowledge on?

14 A. I accept testimony of -- statements of few witnesses from special

15 police brigade who are very familiar with this call sign of the people

16 from the special police brigade. I believe we have also some documents

17 saying that this call sign belongs to deputy commander of the special

18 police brigade.

19 MS. HASAN: Let's continue playing the video.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MS. HASAN: Let's pause it right there. It's 25 minutes and 5

22 seconds.

23 Q. Witness, we saw initially a few seconds of a black screen

24 followed by this footage of what appears to be a food rations box. Do

25 you have any explanation for what this clip is doing in this part of the

Page 12296

1 video?

2 A. Yes, this part of the video was over-recorded and in the later

3 stage when Mr. Petrovic probably returned from -- from the area of

4 Srebrenica-Bratunac, and he admitted during his interview that this --

5 this food ration was -- in fact, he admitted that it was recorded at his

6 home, incidentally according to him, and we know comparing to having in

7 our possession the Studio B edited material, we came to the conclusion --

8 we established that in this part of the video over-recorded in the raw

9 material there should be footage from -- of the bodies in Kravica

10 warehouse.

11 Q. Okay. We'll just take a look at that in a moment, but before we

12 do can we just recap for us from where Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Petrovic --

13 so the last we saw them was in Sandici and where did they go after that?

14 A. In fact, we are in the second day now on the 14th of July, 1995,

15 and a few seconds before -- before we have this blank portion of this

16 video, it was the last footage recorded in Sandici meadow. A few

17 seconds -- I believe it was about 11 or 12 seconds before. Yeah, 24

18 seconds.

19 MS. HASAN: All right. If we could in our book -- road books,

20 65 ter 5759, turn to pages 60 and 61. And if I could call up

21 65 ter 22362 which is the Studio B footage that you just referred to.

22 And I'd ask that we start playing at 18 minutes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Ms. Hasan, I would like to draw

24 your attention to the following. I think that the video 65 ter 22287

25 which you used is partially uploaded through Witness Gallagher on the

Page 12297

1 number 22287A, that is marked for identification at this moment if I

2 understand well, and I wonder whether we should -- if there are any

3 additional portions played now, whether we should have made one exhibit

4 or still have it as two exhibits.

5 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, as I understand it, 22 -- 65 ter

6 22287 A which was used with Ms. Gallagher was a 20-second clip taken from

7 this video, so I'm going to be offering the entirety of the video and I'm

8 told that the correct time codes were provided, so the clip can be

9 located on the full version of the video that I will offer in.

10 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, P1518 MFI'd which was the portion used

11 with Ms. Gallagher that we don't need that -- to have that separately in

12 evidence any further.

13 MS. HASAN: It sounds like it might be an easy reference to just

14 have the 20-second clip admitted on its own, however, it can be found on

15 the full video so we can dispense with the clip.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a look at it, especially keeping in mind

17 what puzzles we are putting to those who later will read the transcripts

18 of this case.

19 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honour, I think when counsel says the time

20 code was identified. I'm not sure if that was in the transcript or if

21 it's in e-court. If it's in e-court, then someone reading the transcript

22 will not be able to locate that 20-second segment, so --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's wisest. The whole of 22287 is how

24 long, Ms. Hasan? Let's deal with it -- we have it in mind. I think I

25 said, and it was on the 5th of June, that I said and to see what the

Page 12298

1 total compilation finally we'll have in evidence. So let's consider it.

2 We can proceed at this very moment.

3 MS. HASAN: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour. So we are now at

4 65 ter 22362 which is a Studio B edited footage and we are at 18 minutes.

5 If we could just play that portion.

6 [Videotape played]

7 JUDGE ORIE: I hear music and something that sounds similar to

8 gunfire but we have no picture. And looking at all the screens around

9 me, it's the same. Any way to restart it?

10 MS. HASAN: Should we start replaying it?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you think that you can bring the picture as

12 well.

13 MS. HASAN: Okay. Let's --

14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid it's the same.

15 Madam Registrar, any chance that --

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, is there any way since the problem seems

18 to be -- the origin of the problem seems to be unknown, is there any way

19 that we could proceed already with perhaps other parts and then revisit

20 this matter at a later stage? I do understand it's inconvenient because

21 of the time line you are following.

22 MS. HASAN: Okay. I will skip that portion and it get back to it

23 once that is resolved. I understand, Mr. President, that it's now been

24 resolved.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's give it a try. I see at least something

Page 12299

1 on my screen. Yes.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MS. HASAN: Okay. Let's pause it right there. That's at 18

4 minutes and 12 seconds.

5 And, Your Honours, I don't want to be creating more puzzles,

6 however, this footage is in our Srebrenica trial video and also in a slow

7 motion version so that can be viewed there. That's Exhibit P1148 on the

8 CD V000-9267 at 35 minutes and 59 seconds.

9 Q. Witness, you've already told us that this portion is not on

10 Mr. Petrovic's raw footage. Can you tell us what location we just saw?

11 A. Your Honour, we have in fact in this part of the video played to

12 us from Studio B, we -- I would divide it for three segments. The first

13 segment is showing us the first few seconds showing us the view of

14 Potocari from the 14 July 1995 which is on the original material

15 Mr. Petrovic still exists. Another segment is a segment showing us

16 Kravica warehouse and a body in front of the Kravica warehouse. And then

17 when we pass the bodies when we pass the bus in front of the Kravica

18 warehouse, we have again -- we see now the footage from the 14th of July,

19 1995, recorded by Petrovic on the 14 -- the following day. This is

20 additional material to Studio B.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a question to ask based on the question

22 that Madam Hasan put. She says witness you have already told that this

23 portion is not on this Mr. Petrovic's raw footage. Do I understand that

24 to mean that this BBC tape has this part and Petrovic's tape doesn't have

25 it?

Page 12300

1 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, both raw tapes -- the copy of the

2 raw tapes we received from Mr. Petrovic and BBC copy is almost -- this is

3 identical copy.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

5 THE WITNESS: This is material only broadcasted in Studio B in

6 sometime in July 1995. This is edited material. Containing of course

7 the footage from Petrovic.

8 MS. HASAN:

9 Q. So if I understand it correctly, then, Studio B broadcasts a

10 portion of Mr. Petrovic's video and what they broadcast is slightly out

11 of sequence from the original footage that Mr. Petrovic took; am I

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, this is correct. As I said this is edited material. It's

14 mean not in the sequences, not played in the sequences.

15 Q. Now, the video footage we saw of the Kravica warehouse,

16 Mr. Petrovic and Mr. Borovcanin are moving from where and in what

17 direction as they pass the Kravica warehouse?

18 A. The car with Mr. Petrovic and Mr. Borovcanin, they are moving

19 from Sandici meadow towards Bratunac. They are passing Kravica warehouse

20 from west.

21 MS. HASAN: If we could just take a look at page 60 and 61 in

22 65 ter 5759.

23 Q. We see that you've put on the left on page 60 the video still

24 images from the Studio B edited material. Now, on image A where we see

25 the Studio B icon that you've explained to us before, we see a black box

Page 12301

1 right in the middle there. Can you tell us what that is?

2 A. I'm not sure to what you're referring to.

3 Q. I'm referring to just right behind the pile of bodies there.

4 There appears to be a door. Is that a door or what is it that we're

5 seeing there?

6 A. Yes, Your Honour, this is a door, the big door leading us to the

7 inside of western part of Kravica warehouse. This is closed door. At

8 the beginning of our investigation we thought that the door is open, the

9 reflection, the white reflection is a reflection from the windows of the

10 warehouse on another side of the warehouse but later on we established

11 that this is door and the white reflection -- in fact, they are hundreds

12 of door.

13 Q. So we're looking at the western door and the white -- the white

14 squares we see there are the door handles. Now, the Kravica warehouse,

15 does it have multiple doors?

16 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Because this is -- entire compound, you

17 know, just there are a few doors, similar doors, and I believe also a

18 double door, at least one more like this.

19 Q. And if we look at page 61 in 65 ter 5759, we in fact see images

20 that you've captured later on. And looking at them, I don't see the

21 doors that I see in video still image A on page 60. Can you explain that

22 for us?

23 A. Yes, I can explain whole images. Of course, the door is not

24 visible here because during the cleaning up operation, let's say in this

25 way, the door was destroyed and disappeared. A part of the frames of the

Page 12302

1 door were found as far as I remember even in the grave of -- in Glogova

2 grave where the bodies from Kravica warehouse were taken after the

3 execution. But it's not visible on my picture from page 61, the door.

4 But in the back side we have -- we can see part of on the picture 3 on

5 page 61, where the car is standing is not very well visible here, but

6 there is a door from administration building of Kravica warehouse, this

7 is single door but similar one having the same handles, door handles.

8 Q. Okay. If we turn to the back of 65 ter 5759, there is an

9 interactive CD provided and that had a separate 65 ter number, in fact

10 it's 65 ter 5760.

11 MS. HASAN: If we could set that up. This is what we call an

12 interactive CD presentation, and it accompanies the road book, and I'm

13 just going to ask the witness to demonstrate how this CD works and how it

14 can be used.

15 I don't know if everyone can see D000-1909 on their screens?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we going to be seeing 65 ter 5760 or are we

17 going to be seeing 009109?

18 MS. HASAN: You're correct, Your Honour. It's 65 ter 5760 that

19 that we'll be seeing and that has an ERN which is what I read out. I

20 should have been more clear. The ERN is D000-1909.

21 Q. Is that visible now?

22 A. Yes. Yes, Your Honour, I see on my screen.

23 Q. Okay, Witness, if you could just -- I want to focus just --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Wait a minute. We don't see anything yet.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] We see the letter

Page 12303

1 D000 --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We now have it on our screen. At least we see --

4 no, we do not -- yes, we see a picture on part of our screen which starts

5 with in red, D000-1909.

6 MS. HASAN: Now -- so this is a CD presentation, and I'm afraid

7 because it's being played from a laptop that the witness has, it won't be

8 a full screen, it won't cover the full screen.

9 Q. But, Witness, if you could walk us through this. I want to focus

10 just on the Kravica warehouse for a moment, but if you could briefly tell

11 us what other areas your CD presentation covers.

12 A. Yes, this is -- Your Honour, this is a file, in fact, which is on

13 the CD, this interactive CD. We made this CD just to let the people who

14 never been in this area or who -- they -- they were been there not so

15 often, to better orientate on the terrain in the area. And to make kind

16 of virtual trip in the area of Sandici. In fact, I divided this

17 presentation for two part. This is the first part so related to

18 Potocari, we can walk. We can see the area of Potocari.

19 And another part is related to the road Sandici-Pervani-Kravica.

20 And operating on this CD we can make a small trip to -- we can make a

21 trip to this area, we can see the area from various multiple

22 perspectives. And some part of the file are linked with Petrovic video

23 stills. I think it would be the best if I can operate this CD to show

24 you how it works.

25 Q. Please do so and if you can focus on the Kravica warehouse.

Page 12304

1 A. Yes. Your Honour, this CD was created using the software called

2 Quick Time Player. On the bottom of this screen, we have a few buttons

3 here. The first one on the right, from the right-hand side with question

4 mark is kind of the help button. If you activate this button, we can see

5 that the screen is getting bluer, it means that this part of the screen

6 is linked to another field or picture or still.

7 Here, we have zoom in button. We can enlarge the picture, to

8 some extent of course, and using the minus button we can -- came to the

9 original size.

10 The reverse button on the left-hand side, just the last one from

11 the left-hand side, if you like to return to the previous picture we can

12 use this button, help button, as well.

13 As I said, using this button with question mark, the help button,

14 we can see which field is linked to another, another location in this

15 presentation. We can enter the location. We see the map first. I put

16 here a map of entire Bosnia-Herzegovina with box showing us location

17 when -- when and where the picture was recorded from Petrovic video.

18 We can see that this area is also linked to another area. It

19 takes us to close up map of the same location. And as I said, I divided

20 this presentation for two parts. The first one this is Potocari and

21 another one is related to Kravica and Sandici, Pervani, Lolici road.

22 Because I remember by heart this presentation, I don't need to

23 use this help button, but if somebody is operating this presentation

24 first time, the best is using this button which is getting us to

25 particular location.

Page 12305

1 And again, we are in the map of -- it took us to the map of -- on

2 the road, first Sandici, Lolici, Pervani, and Kravica area. I was asked

3 to go first to go to Kravica.

4 Your Honour, moving the cursor, we can watch the area, the

5 compound of Kravica warehouse. We can move a little bit down to the

6 east. We are in front of the Kravica warehouse.

7 Here, in front of the Kravica warehouse, we see the road leading

8 from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac. Bratunac is to the right, Sandici is to

9 the left.

10 Again, we are in the front of eastern part of Kravica warehouse.

11 We can go to the corner of Kravica warehouse as well. We have a view of

12 entire compound of Kravica and this is building used by administration,

13 administration building in Kravica warehouse.

14 Your Honour, this is the door I referred a few minutes ago that

15 having the same door handles like the big door, the double door in

16 western part of Kravica warehouse.

17 We can walk, we can return to the western part of Kravica

18 warehouse. We are in the front of the door. As I said, I know this

19 presentation very well but if somebody using it can use this help button

20 here, you see the marked fields getting us to another picture or still.

21 For example, pressing on the door, it takes us to still from

22 Studio B of Petrovic still from July 1995 recorded -- in July 1995. We

23 have the same door, of course different shape, because the door doesn't

24 exist in fact but the hole from the door is a different one -- sorry.

25 Here, we see -- we see the location of the bus also recorded by

Page 12306

1 Mr. Petrovic on the field in 13 July 1995.

2 Your Honour, we can get into the western part of Kravica

3 warehouse. We are inside now. You may have a look at how it looks --

4 looked in 2006.

5 We can move a little bit down to west part of western part of

6 Kravica warehouse, the east part of the western part of Kravica

7 warehouse. I believe, Your Honour, that you heard or you are going to

8 hear the testimony of one of the survivor who survived the execution

9 which took place in this part of the Kravica warehouse. And he survived

10 hiding in small house at that time was served as kind of cleric booth,

11 whatever, it's called administration booth in Kravica warehouse inside.

12 Also, this small house inside the Kravica warehouse was destroyed

13 during the cleaning up operation when they cleaned up the Kravica

14 warehouse of the bodies. It was removed. But it's still visible here as

15 kind of the signs of the wall. It's very small. It's small house

16 inside, a booth.

17 You're coming to another end of the warehouse. We can go out.

18 We are again in the front of Kravica warehouse.

19 And here, if you look to the west, Sandici is located along this

20 road approximately about 1.000 metres. If I could zoom in little bit

21 more, I could see the Sandici meadow, it's visible, the Sandici meadow

22 from here, not the meadow but the location of Sandici is at least this

23 white destroyed house across the road from Sandici meadow.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaszczyk, if I understand well, the Kravica

25 warehouse, the Kravica compound is south of the road Sandici-Bratunac?

Page 12307

1 THE WITNESS: Kravica warehouse in Kravica compound itself is --

2 yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I mean the warehouse, the pictures we see with the

4 doors and the holes and -- that's south of that road?

5 THE WITNESS: Is correct, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

7 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I note the time.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MS. HASAN: It might be a good place -- time to take a break.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But of course I inquired with you whether you

11 would be able to finish in the first session because the 40 minutes, we

12 are beyond that certainly.

13 How much time would you still need?

14 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I have one very short chapter to go

15 through, a page on 65 ter 5759, and then that should be about it, so I

16 will need --

17 JUDGE ORIE: And that takes how many minutes?

18 MS. HASAN: It will just take us, looking at the video, 15

19 minutes, perhaps less.

20 JUDGE ORIE: This sounds as wishful thinking, Ms. Hasan. It

21 doesn't make much sense. We had some technical problems. It doesn't

22 make much sense to continue for another more than two or three minutes so

23 therefore let's take the break first.

24 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 12308

1 JUDGE ORIE: In view of the technical problems we were facing,

2 Ms. Hasan, you have 15 minutes but not more after the break.

3 We'll resume at 11.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

7 MS. HASAN: Just for the record, Your Honours, the witness

8 mentioned another witness that will come to testify as he was showing us

9 the Kravica warehouse, the interactive CD, and that's RM256.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that information.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, you may proceed and you have time until

13 20 minutes past 11.00.

14 MS. HASAN: Thank you.

15 Q. We left off looking at the interactive CD 65 ter 5760. Witness,

16 we're not going to go through the rest of the CD, but could you tell us

17 whether the remainder of the presentation, the Sandici and the Potocari

18 sections operate in the same way that you've demonstrated for us today?

19 A. Yes, exactly. It works the same way I presented with Kravica

20 warehouse.

21 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I'd then offer at this time

22 65 ter 5760 --

23 MR. IVETIC: No objection.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 5670 receives number P1537, Your

Page 12309

1 Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: P1537 is admitted into evidence. You may proceed,

3 Ms. Hasan.

4 MS. HASAN:

5 Q. Turning back to 65 ter 5759, the road book, Witness, the next

6 chapter we have in your book is Srebrenica town. We're not going to look

7 at that portion of the video but if you could just briefly tell us where

8 Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Petrovic travel and briefly what happened during

9 that segment.

10 A. Your Honours, on the following day on the 14th July, 1995,

11 Mr. Borovcanin and Petrovic, they were driving towards -- to Srebrenica

12 and they stopped in Srebrenica. In fact, they were driving together with

13 the Deputy Minister of Interior Tomo Kovac. They stopped shortly at the

14 police station at that time, newly created police station in Srebrenica.

15 Mr. -- in the mean time, Mr. Petrovic, he made a tour, you know, in

16 Srebrenica, on the streets of Srebrenica. He took -- he recorded some

17 footages from this location. Later on, they drove together to

18 Zeleni Jadar wood factory. They stopped there for a while. Also

19 Petrovic recorded some footages from Zeleni Jadar. If we play Petrovic

20 video, we can see on the video Mr. Borovcanin, Mr. Tomo Kovac, and other

21 persons who assisted them including Dragomir Vasic, the chief of CJB

22 Zvornik.

23 Q. If I could just stop you there for a moment. So we've moved now

24 from chapter 3 in your book to chapter 4 which relates to the

25 Zeleni Jadar wood factory; is that correct?

Page 12310

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. And if we turn to page 70 and 71 in 65 ter 5759, video still

3 image B which you've taken from the Petrovic video, can you tell us the

4 persons that we see in that image?

5 A. In this image, we see the first one, this is Tomo Kovac, the

6 deputy minister of interior of RS, the next to him is Dragomir Vasic

7 chief of CJB Zvornik, and then we see Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin, the deputy

8 commander of the special police brigade.

9 Q. Okay. Then we get towards the end of the Petrovic video and we

10 have a final chapter in your book beginning on page 72 about a mosque.

11 I'm not going to ask you any questions about that.

12 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, there is going to be a witness who will

13 testify specifically as to mosques themselves. So that brings us to the

14 conclusion of your book and pretty much to the conclusion of the Petrovic

15 video. So those will be -- those were all of my questions.

16 I have a few documents to offer into evidence; namely, the

17 8-millimetre Petrovic video received from Mr. Zoran Petrovic,

18 65 ter 22422. I'd offer that into evidence.

19 MR. IVETIC: No objection.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Video 22422 receives number P1538, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: P1538 is admitted.

23 MS. HASAN: I'd offer then the road book, 65 ter 5759 into

24 evidence.

25 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be an audio problem.

Page 12314

1 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, Your Honours. So document 22274

2 receives number P1542.

3 JUDGE ORIE: P1542 is admitted into evidence and I take it due to

4 the microphone not being activated page 27, line 17 may have wrongly

5 reflected a number not mentioned, a number which was not mentioned by

6 Madam Registrar. It is P1542.

7 Ms. Hasan, you say this is a copy which was seized. Is that the

8 original one as seized or is it a copy of the seized videotape.

9 MS. HASAN: My understanding that this is a copy of the videotape

10 that was seized by Mr. Beara. The witness explained at the very

11 beginning of his testimony and we had entered also into evidence the

12 seizure report.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I have no problem with that but the way in which it

14 is described, it looks as if it's the one which was seized but it's a

15 copy of the seized videotape. That's hereby on the record and should be

16 reflected in the description.

17 That was it, Ms. Hasan?

18 MS. HASAN: Yes, those are all the exhibits.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

20 Then, Mr. Blaszczyk, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Ivetic.

21 Mr. Ivetic is a member of the defence team of Mr. Mladic.

22 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

25 Q. Good day, sir.

Page 12315

1 A. Good day, sir.

2 Q. Now today I will have some questions to ask you to clarify some

3 things that you brought up in your direct examination. Since we both

4 will be using English, I would like to ask you to keep in mind that we

5 must always observe a pause to make the jobs of the court reporter and

6 translators easier. Is that fair, sir?

7 A. Yes, I understand. I follow the transcript.

8 Q. Great. Now, I want to begin with some questions to better

9 understand your background. First of all, sir, are you conversant in any

10 of the B/C/S languages?

11 A. Your Honours, I understand B/C/S, let's say in this way, I can

12 communicate in B/C/S. But of course I'm not fluent in B/C/S. I can

13 communicate with people on the street. I can read the documents. I can

14 read Cyrillic, but I'm not fluent at all.

15 Q. Fair enough. Now, as part of either your studies or professional

16 training for the Polish police force on the one hand or the ICTY on the

17 other, did you have occasion to study the constitutional structure of the

18 SFRY or Republika Srpska including either the Law of Defence or the Law

19 of Internal Affairs?

20 A. No, I did not.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, the reason that I ask you this, sir, is that in

22 your direct examination you made a rather authoritative statement which I

23 want to discuss with you. And I'm talking about your testimony at

24 transcript page 11.568, lines 17 through 20, where you indicated that MUP

25 personnel were subordinated to the VRS.

Page 12316

1 Now, in relation to this assertion, I'd like to ask you, do you

2 consider yourself to be an expert on the topic such that we should treat

3 your testimony as authoritative on this point?

4 A. Your Honours, I am investigator for Srebrenica case almost ten

5 years. I read a lot of documents. And including the documents, the

6 order or dispatch of Deputy Minister of Interior Tomo Kovac. I remember

7 it was order from 10 July 1995. And I believe in this order, he

8 subordinated the units of MUP in operation to VRS. And also including

9 the statements of the witnesses not just -- I didn't go to the legal

10 aspects of this order.

11 Q. Thank you for that, sir. Now, could you answer my question? Do

12 you consider yourself to be an expert on the topic so that we should

13 treat your answer as being authoritative?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think the witness has answered that he

15 did not go into the legal details of the matter and of course I

16 understand his answer to be that you described the situation from a

17 factual point of view as you found it, is that what you wanted to tell

18 us?

19 THE WITNESS: Exactly, Your Honour. This is what I wanted to

20 say.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Which I also understand means that you do not

22 consider yourself to be an expert on the legal aspects of such

23 subordinations.

24 THE WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honour. I'm not legal expert

25 for this aspect but I consider myself as kind of in some extent expert of

Page 12317

1 what happened in Srebrenica.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

4 MR. IVETIC:

5 Q. Now, in relation to this part of your testimony, you have

6 mentioned at that point in time a MUP order, and I believe now you've

7 identified it as an order from Mr. Kovac, have you in fact reviewed more

8 than this one order before testifying as you did about the factual

9 scenario as you believe at the subordination of the MUP to the VRS?

10 A. I think it should be also order of President Karadzic at that

11 time, just subordinating the MUP or just sending MUP to the operation of

12 Srebrenica and subordinating the units to VRS.

13 Q. Would that be the extent of the material that you reviewed in

14 terms of orders, the one order from the MUP minister and the one order

15 from the civilian president?

16 A. In fact, I remember very well Tomo Kovac order, I think he's

17 referring to the president order in this order.

18 Q. Sir, I'm asking you what you reviewed. Is this the extent of

19 what you reviewed, these two orders?

20 A. Definitely I reviewed the Tomo Kovac order.

21 Q. Fair enough. Now, and perhaps I should have asked you this

22 first, but is this a conclusion about the subordination of the MUP to the

23 VRS that you reached yourself or is it something that was given or

24 suggested to you by someone else within the Office of the Prosecutor that

25 you just adopted?

Page 12318

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought Mr. Ivetic the witness has answered that

2 he read this from the two orders. It's not a conclusion. It's what he

3 read.

4 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, and he first mentioned the

5 Karadzic order and then he mentioned that it's only the Kovac order. I'm

6 wondering if the Kovac order was something he found or whether it was

7 something that was given to him.

8 JUDGE ORIE: That's a different question.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's a different question. You said conclusion.

10 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You have now rephrased your question and the witness

12 may answer the question.

13 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: If you want it to be repeated, don't hesitate to ask

15 for it.

16 MR. IVETIC: Let me repeat this, sir.

17 Q. This Kovac order that you say you looked at for reaching this

18 determination, was it something that you found on your own or was it

19 something that was suggested or given to you by someone else from the

20 Office of the Prosecutor in this Tribunal?

21 A. Your Honours, as I said, and I just -- I have been working for

22 this case for Srebrenica case for so many years. You know, just through

23 this -- through these years I reviewed a lot of documents and I seen

24 these documents a lot of time. I do not remember whether it was

25 suggested to me not by somebody else to read this order or not. I

Page 12319

1 don't -- it could be also but really, I'm not catching this moment, but I

2 seen this -- this order not once, not twice, but many times, and

3 difficult for me to exactly to put the date when it was and how it

4 happened.

5 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't know, I take it that Mr. Ivetic will

6 accept that.

7 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.

8 Q. Now, sir, in the reference to the many years that you were

9 working on the investigations for this case, the many documents that you

10 reviewed, did you ever come across the Law of Defence that was applicable

11 to Republika Srpska in 1995?

12 A. Your Honours, I never, as I said, you know, I never went into the

13 legal aspect of RS of the army at that time, I -- no. I didn't analyse

14 this law, at least.

15 Q. My question was did you come across the same?

16 A. I may have seen it but as I said, I didn't analyse it.

17 Q. Fair enough. Now I'd like to ask you the same question in

18 relation to the law of internal affairs that would have been in effect

19 for Republika Srpska in 1995 and specifically Article 14 of the law on

20 amendments and additions to the law of internal affairs from the

21 beginning of 1995 which dealt specifically with resubordination of the

22 MUP and which limited to combat and which specified that the MUP retain

23 their own chain of command within the police. Did you have occasion to

24 come across that law or references to the same as part of your

25 investigative work?

Page 12320

1 A. My answer, Your Honours, would be the same. Not just -- I seen

2 this regulation but I never analyse it.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, in relation to the Petrovic, or Pirocanac video

4 as you referred to it, and I think I will be talking about what has been

5 marked as P1538 and also now in different forms as P1541 and P1542. This

6 video from Mr. Petrovic, would you agree with me that all of the armed

7 persons in uniform that we saw and that you identified as being PJP or

8 Jahorina unit or Skelani unit and all the other Serbs in uniform in this

9 video are actually MUP police members rather than members of the VRS, the

10 ones that you identified?

11 A. Your Honours, this is correct. Most of the people we seen on the

12 Petrovic video they are coming from MUP. But there are few people also

13 that are members of VRS. At least I recognise one such member in Sandici

14 meadow. I interviewed this member of -- I remember he was the member of

15 Sekovici Brigade but he was present in Sandici meadow. If you are

16 referring to the army personnel who are there.

17 But most of the people recognised by us from Sandici and in

18 Potocari, they were members of MUP, special police brigade and PJP units.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, in your direct examination at transcript

20 page 11.532, you talked about your efforts to go through and examine the

21 archives of the BiH Ministry of Defence in Banja Luka. First of all, I'd

22 like to know prior to being allowed to have the access to the archives,

23 did the Office of the Prosecutor have to send a written request for

24 assistance to the authorities of either BiH or Republika Srpska?

25 A. Your Honours, the first -- probably I wasn't clear enough but I

Page 12321

1 was not involved in the searching of the archive of MOD in Banja Luka.

2 They were my colleagues.

3 Regarding your questions, I believe they would send request to

4 MOD to have access to the archive.

5 Q. Thank you for clarifying. And could you tell us, did your

6 colleagues or associates who were actually involved in the search of the

7 archives have any difficulty in obtaining the co-operation of these

8 entities in order to gain access to the archives to search for documents

9 or material that was relevant to your work on the cases before the

10 Tribunal?

11 A. I have no any information that they have any problems having

12 access to these archive in Banja Luka.

13 Q. In relation to your own investigative efforts and working with

14 people in the region, did you ever have any objections that you could not

15 have access to any archives or any documentation unless you as a

16 prerequisite prepared a Rule 54 bis submission?

17 A. Your Honours, through my work with ICTY, we try to locate Main

18 Staff archive. At the beginning we had really problem to locate the Main

19 Staff, VRS Main Staff archive. And we had also problem to locate for

20 example Drina Corps archive.

21 I remember in 2004, after -- after a lot of attempts or requests,

22 done mostly by my colleagues, investigators who tried to track the

23 location of these particular archives, we received information from RS

24 that they located Drina Corps archive on the territory of Serbia. It was

25 2004 as far as I could remember. And later on, after following our

Page 12322

1 requests, we received these archive. But I am pretty sure that -- I am

2 sure that we don't have entire archive. A lot of documents, especially

3 security documents are missing or at least we have no access to these

4 documents.

5 Q. Thank you, sir. And in that communication or efforts to locate

6 documents, were you ever advised by the authorities of either the BiH or

7 Republika Srpska that as a prerequisite to obtaining documents one had to

8 first file a Rule 54 bis motion?

9 A. Yes, probably yes.

10 Q. Probably or do you have definitive knowledge or are you guessing,

11 sir? I need to know only what you know, not what you're guessing.

12 A. Your Honours, I don't remember the particular request or

13 particular documents from either RS authority or Serbia authority

14 regarding the archive, but I believe so. Because later on in regards,

15 for example, with search done by Serbian authority in the house of

16 General Mladic, I remember such correspondence.

17 Q. Fair enough. Now, I want to move on to another part of your

18 testimony from direct examination and that can be located at transcript

19 page 11.526, and it was when we were talking about this Petrovic or

20 Pirocanac video which we now have as again P1538, P1541, and P1542 in

21 various forms.

22 And at that page it was mentioned by counsel for the Prosecution

23 that while a lot of this video is included in the separate video that has

24 been labelled as the Srebrenica trial video, not all of it has been

25 included, so I'd like to ask you: Did you have a role or do you have any

Page 12323

1 knowledge relating to the selection of portions of this Petrovic video

2 for inclusion in the so-called Srebrenica trial video?

3 A. Your Honour, I said that I am investigator involved in or

4 investigation -- in the cases related to Srebrenica events, but I am not

5 a part of Mladic teach as investigator. I am part of Karadzic team. I

6 believe these two videos are slightly different, about definitely Mladic

7 team, I didn't take the part in creating this trial video.

8 Q. Did you take part in creating the trial video in the Karadzic

9 case or any case?

10 A. Yes, I was consulted by my colleagues and even lawyers because as

11 I said, I've been working for this -- this case for ten years. I'm quite

12 familiar with the locations, with the events. But --

13 Q. And -- go ahead, finish.

14 A. But I didn't -- let's say, I was not such person who decided

15 which part of the video should be played or should be included in trial

16 video.

17 Q. That was what I was getting at. Thank you for that, sir.

18 Now, I want to move along and I want to ask you about the shell

19 casing that you testified about in your direct examination as that part

20 of your testimony was not clear to me.

21 MR. IVETIC: So I'd like to call up what was marked at that time

22 as P1483 marked for identification. And with the assistance of the

23 Prosecution and the Sanction system, that would be the first item that I

24 had identified. And if we could fast forward to the time stamp of 19

25 minutes and 19 seconds, and we can just pause at that location as I do

Page 12324

1 not intend to rely upon the audio but just the visual image to remind the

2 witness of what we were talking about or what he was talking about the

3 other week.

4 19 and 19. If we could move forward a little bit. That's fine.

5 That's fine. Perfect.

6 Q. Now, sir, on the right-hand side of the screen there is this item

7 that you identified as a -- I believe a shell or shell casing. Now, I'm

8 confused because you I believe indicated that the right image was from

9 Mr. Petrovic's house in Belgrade. Was your testimony that this shell was

10 something that was alleged to have been recovered from Srebrenica?

11 A. Your Honours, no, this is not my testimony. I just said that

12 this shell casing was recorded by Mr. Petrovic, by himself whether it

13 happened before Srebrenica or after Srebrenica, probably after. And I

14 seen this shell casing by my own eyes, just when I met Mr. Petrovic first

15 time and he came to interview, to our Belgrade field office, we asked him

16 to bring also his original tape or roll tape recorded by him in these

17 days in Srebrenica area and Bratunac, Pervani road, whatever he recorded.

18 He said that the tape is still at his house, and then we asked him if he

19 agreed that we drove together to his house.

20 Being at his house, it happened that he showed me the casings.

21 He said, "Okay. This is the case also from the video." And I've seen

22 this personally. But I never mentioned and he never mentioned that this

23 is the shell case recorded in Srebrenica. I think he mentioned something

24 but definitely not Srebrenica, that he brought from one of his trips to

25 Bosnia or somewhere.

Page 12325

1 Q. Okay. Now -- thank you for clarifying that. We can remove the

2 image. I'm done with that aspect. Thank you again to Ms. Stewart for

3 assisting with that.

4 Now, another thing that you've mentioned in direct examination

5 was the edited version of the Petrovic Pirocanac tape that was obtained

6 or aired by Studio B and that is now marked as P1540 and it's an exhibit

7 in this proceeding.

8 Now, I want to ask you first of all that this Studio B station as

9 part of your investigations did you find out anything about who were the

10 owners or ran that Studio B TV station at the time in 1995?

11 A. Personally, I did not. I don't know whether my colleagues tried

12 to receive such information. I tried to locate at least the persons who

13 were mentioned by Mr. Petrovic as editors of this video.

14 Q. Thank you. And now one thing that I need you to clear up is did

15 the Studio B footage that you had referred to, and that would be again

16 P1540, did it come directly from the TV station itself to the Office of

17 the Prosecutor or from some other source? Can you tell us how it ended

18 up at the -- or in the possession of the Office of the Prosecutor?

19 A. Your Honour, I believe the first Studio B footage we received

20 from Mr. Borovcanin during his interview OTP conducted I believe it was

21 2002, and he provided us the VHS tape containing the -- these broadcasted

22 programme from Studio B, and I am aware also of another version of

23 Studio B material. It was handed over to us, to me personally by

24 Mr. Pirocanac, Petrovic, during his interview we conducted in 2006,

25 February.

Page 12326

1 Q. Thank you, sir. And now the BBC video of the -- of -- BBC copy

2 of Mr. Petrovic's video which has now been marked and entered into

3 evidence as P1541, could you tell us how and when that came into the

4 possession of the Office of the Prosecutor?

5 A. I've checked our records and I found that the video was seized or

6 received from BBC. It was 2001 or 2002. But I have no more details,

7 information how we did it. Probably somebody from our team contacted BBC

8 and requested the tape. But in 2000 -- I joined Tribunal it was 2003. I

9 was not involved in this process.

10 Q. Thank you, sir. Now if we could focus on the Studio B version of

11 the tape, that would be P1540 for just one more question. Can you tell

12 me was your office able to ascertain as to the providence of that

13 footage, of that clip, when it was that it was supposed to have been

14 aired by Studio B TV?

15 A. I am afraid that I am not understanding well your question.

16 Q. Let me rephrase it then. As part of your investigations, did you

17 ascertain when the edited Petrovic video would have been broadcast on

18 Studio B?

19 A. Your Honours, as I said during the interview with Mr. Petrovic,

20 he said that this material was broadcasted in Studio B on 17 July 1995,

21 but in fact I have some doubts. Definitely it was broadcasted, aired

22 in -- after Srebrenica operation, shortly after Srebrenica operation, but

23 if we look closely, very carefully, let's say Studio B editing materials,

24 especially the material we received from Mr. Borovcanin. At the end of

25 the -- this material, we see some information that this programme is

Page 12327

1 broadcasted on Saturday and Sunday. But at that at that time, Saturday

2 was 15 of July, Sunday was 16 of July. 17 July, it was Monday.

3 According to the calendar.

4 And Mr. Petrovic, Pirocanac, he returned to Belgrade on the 14 of

5 July. He wasn't sure at the beginning during his testimony. Later on

6 after analysing all the steps he agreed that it should be 14 or 15, but

7 he was convinced but that was on 17, but personally I think it was rather

8 Saturday or on Sunday. Either 15 or 16.

9 Q. Okay.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question. You talk about several

11 dates. Have you considered the possibility that it was broadcasted on

12 more than one day?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours. I think there is information

14 after the documentaries ended in the Studio B broadcast, that this

15 programme is broadcasted Saturday and Sunday or this particular -- I

16 don't remember the hours but this these particular dates.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore it being broadcast on the 17th is not

18 necessarily inconsistent with an earlier broadcast on the 15th and/or the

19 16th.

20 THE WITNESS: Yes. You're correct, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

23 Q. And just for purposes of finishing the loop, the last version of

24 the Petrovic video which we have had entered into evidence as P1542 which

25 has been described as the version that was seized by Beara which was

Page 12328

1 found in the Ministry of Defence archives, that came into the possession

2 of the OTP sometime after -- when did that come into the possession of

3 the OTP? Let's just keep it simple.

4 A. I believe I testified about it that during the search of the

5 archive in Banja Luka, I think it was in 2006, 2007, I do not remember

6 the date exactly, my colleagues scanned some documents including the

7 receipt signed by Colonel Beara and information from Colonel Milutinovic

8 about the tape allegedly in the possession of journalists from Belgrade,

9 Hadzihasanovic I think the name of the journalist lady is. And

10 following -- after finding these documents, I requested MOD for the tape.

11 Because the -- in these documents they were referring to particular --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you for a second. I gained the

13 impression that Mr. Ivetic primarily was interested to know whether many

14 years passed since it was broadcasted until the moment that you obtained

15 it. And I do understand from your answers that it was at least

16 anything -- ten years or more after it was broadcasted and that you

17 obtained it or -- Ms. Hasan.

18 MS. HASAN: In fact, it's not very clear to me because the video,

19 the Petrovic video from -- seized from Mr. Beara is not Studio B footage.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that Mr. Ivetic apparently wanted to know,

21 and I'm not talking about which version, but the version he asked

22 questions about, that is the -- the ones seized or found in the archives,

23 whether that was many, many years after it was broadcasted. If that

24 is --

25 MR. IVETIC: Just the date, whatever the year. I'm just

Page 12329

1 interested in the year that they would have come into the possession of

2 the OTP. That's all I've been asking.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But do you need the exact year or would 2005,

4 2006, or 2007 be --

5 MR. IVETIC: That would be perfect.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

7 MR. IVETIC: If that's what the witness knows.

8 JUDGE ORIE: So then if that's what you want to know, a

9 carefully - I mean focused - question would give that you information.

10 The document you obtained from the Ministry of Defence was that

11 many, many years, that is approximately ten years after 1995 when it was

12 broadcasted?

13 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it is correct, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 THE WITNESS: It was 2007, 2008. I do not remember the date

16 exactly.

17 JUDGE ORIE: More than ten years.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

20 Q. And now it will be clear why I've been asking about these dates.

21 Yesterday --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan is on her feet.

23 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry. It's still a bit confused. The video

24 that's seized, the Petrovic video that's seized from Mr. Beara, the

25 question relates to when it was broadcast and I'm not sure this video was

Page 12330

1 broadcast. It's just not clear. The problem is --

2 MR. IVETIC: My question was when did it come into the possession

3 of the OTP. I keep repeating that, but I can't make it any simpler.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. The confusion may be in which video

5 we're talking about.

6 You said video seized from Mr. Beara may not have been

7 broadcasted at all, Ms. Hasan, if I understand you well.

8 MS. HASAN: Well that's how I understood the question.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well, I do not know.

10 Then for me, the video which was seized from Mr. Beara, is that

11 the same as the video you obtained from the Ministry of Defence and could

12 you give us the years for each, approximately.

13 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, yes, we are talking about the same

14 video.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

16 THE WITNESS: But there is quite weird story. In fact, this

17 is -- this not material broadcasted, not edited material broadcasted by

18 Studio B. This is the copy of the raw material of Mr. Petrovic and the

19 copy of BBC, that same material. Whether this is BBC or Mr. Petrovic is

20 different story.

21 JUDGE ORIE: If you say even there may be some confusion. We are

22 talking about the same video. The same body, the same -- not same

23 content but the same cassette we are talking about.

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. This is the same -- I requested

25 the MOD the tape seized by Mr. Beara. And we are talking about this

Page 12331

1 tape.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we are talking about a tape which was first

3 seized and ended up in the Ministry of Defence and from the Ministry of

4 Defence was given to the OTP when they asked for it.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

7 THE WITNESS: But ...

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 THE WITNESS: For me this is in fact this is quite weird tape.

10 This tape contains the copy of Mr. Pirocanac, Petrovic, raw material

11 excluding let's say incriminating moments like Kravica warehouse, white

12 house in Potocari. But what was weird for me that on this tape, I don't

13 know whether somebody recorded later on the same tape or it can be

14 speculation, but on the same tape we have recorded two interviews

15 conducted by OTP by one of the -- by Erdemovic, Drazen, a member of 10th

16 Sabotage Detachment. On the same tape we received from MOD at the end

17 of -- first segment is his Petrovic material, then we have video of

18 interview conducted by OTP of Drazen Erdemovic; I think the first one was

19 from June 1996, and the third one is also interview conducted with the

20 same person but in April of 1996.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to understand what you are conveying to

22 us. That is that you are not convinced that the tape you received from

23 the Ministry of Defence really was the same tape as the tape they said

24 they had seized from Mr. Beara. Is that well understood?

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I am not convinced.

Page 12332

1 JUDGE ORIE: So you leave the possibility open that what you

2 received is not exactly the same tape as they seized from Mr. Beara but

3 that it had been tampered with, changed, whatever word you would like to

4 use. Is that a right understanding of your testimony.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, this is right understanding

6 exactly. I am not convinced but definitely this tape was tampered

7 somehow.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, my client has asked to consult with

10 me. May I have leave to briefly consult with him.

11 JUDGE ORIE: If he uses the volume of his voice low, you have an

12 opportunity to consult with your client.

13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

15 JUDGE ORIE: That's not a low volume.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Now, sir, again my whole litany of questions regarding the

19 various versions of the tape and when they arrived in the possession of

20 the Prosecution of this Tribunal is relevant because it's something that

21 we heard yesterday in court. At transcript page 12.223, your colleague

22 Ms. Gallagher testified that Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez of the Office of the

23 Prosecutor had captured the Petrovic video already in 1996 and had

24 provided screen captured photos to the BiH authorities at that time for

25 an investigation that they were performing on behalf of the ICTY. Based

Page 12333

1 on your knowledge and information, can this possibly be accurate?

2 A. Your Honours, I checked our records. I could find only the

3 records I referred to in -- just, I'm -- it could be that Jean-Rene had

4 in his possession or received somehow the Petrovic material, at least

5 part of this material.

6 Q. From what source?

7 A. As far as I know, it was only BBC at that time.

8 Q. And the BBC according to your records gave the video in 2001 or

9 2002 as you've testified?

10 A. This is what I remember, yeah.

11 Q. Okay. Now, also during your direct examination testimony you

12 mentioned that for purposes of preparing the road book which is P1539,

13 that you took GPS readings of various locations when you went out into

14 the field and you stated that you plotted these all on a map. Can you

15 tell me if these GPS co-ordinates that you took were in fact recorded in

16 written form?

17 A. Yes, I took some notes, of course in my notebook, and I recorded

18 these GPS readings because I use these GPS readings later on when I

19 returned to The Hague, and I sat together with my colleague from this map

20 unit, small unit, and we plotted these locations on the map using these

21 GPS readings.

22 Q. Do you know if these -- this list of GPS readings or co-ordinates

23 that you created was ever disclosed or provided to the Defence?

24 A. I don't know in fact. I am not sure. But I believe these

25 records still are accessible in my folder at least.

Page 12334

1 Q. Thank you, sir.

2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I believe we started the session at

3 11.00 so we are now at the break or one minute before the break. It

4 would be an appropriate time as I'm about to move to another topic.

5 JUDGE ORIE: If this is the appropriate time for you, it is for

6 the Chamber as well.

7 Could Mr. Blaszczyk be escorted out of the courtroom.

8 [The witness stands down]

9 JUDGE ORIE: We will take a break and we will resume at 20

10 minutes past 12.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

14 Meanwhile, I use the time to the extent the transcript may have

15 caused any confusion as what document is at the basis of P1537, it is

16 65 ter 5760 and not any other number that was mentioned in the

17 transcript.

18 [The witness takes the stand]

19 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Now, sir, earlier today, at temporary transcript page 34, you

22 were talking about the Sandici meadows in the Petrovic video and you said

23 that there was a person there that you saw from the Sekovici Brigade and

24 I want to -- and you had interviewed him and you knew him, et cetera, and

25 I'd like to ask you, sir, are we talking about the 2nd Detachment of the

Page 12337

1 both the English and the B/C/S versions. That's where we need to be.

2 There we go. And this is the Bratunac health centre log book.

3 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you, sir, about a proofing note which we

4 received on the 23rd of May, 2013, from the Office of the Prosecutor, but

5 first to refresh everyone else's recollection, on that very same day, 23

6 May, 2013, there was a discussion in court about this very same book and

7 whether the entries were time and date of the wounding or time and date

8 of the admission. And this was in relation to another witness. And this

9 was at transcript page 11.426 where the Chamber noted that the

10 Prosecution position that this was the times of admission was contrary to

11 the plain language of the actual text in the log book.

12 Now, I want to read to you, sir, what we received from the

13 Prosecution later that very same day in this proofing note. And I begin:

14 "Abeer Hasan proofed Tomasz Blaszczyk on 23 May, 2013.

15 Mr. Blaszczyk was shown the Bratunac health centre log ERN

16 0306-9839-0306-9839 and concluded that the time recorded under the 'date

17 of wounding' column is the time of admission of the patient to the health

18 centre in Bratunac. He based his conclusion on the two entries in the

19 Bratunac health log for," and I will not read the names since I believe

20 that was the reason why this was not broadcast by the Prosecution, "who

21 were wounded in the same incident related to Kravica and the time

22 recorded in that column, 1730 hours on 13 July, 1995, for "the first

23 individual, "and 1740 hours for" the second individual "on the same day.

24 Blaszczyk also noticed that the body of," and then we have the third

25 individual, "arrived at the Bratunac health centre at 1900 hours on 13

Page 12338

1 July, 1995. Based on the above, Blaszczyk that the time recorded under

2 the date of wounding column is the time of admission."

3 Now, sir does that proofing note accurately record what you told

4 Ms. Hasan coincidently just after the matter had been raised in court

5 with another witness?

6 A. Yes, exactly, this is what I said during our proofing session.

7 What I pointed out is this information to Ms. Hasan.

8 Q. Now were you following the testimony of RM316 in order to know

9 that this was a live issue and a part of the Prosecution case that needed

10 to be fixed?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we make it two questions?

12 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Were you following the testimony?

14 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, partially I am following the

15 testimony but I have no time to --

16 JUDGE ORIE: No.

17 THE WITNESS: -- to follow entire processing, of course.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Did you follow the testimony when this point was

19 discussed?

20 THE WITNESS: No. This particular part, no, I didn't.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Did anyone then later come to you and say that this

22 is a matter which was discussed and that it was -- may have its own

23 problems? I'm not elaborating on it now. Was your attention drawn to

24 it?

25 THE WITNESS: I do not remember. But having in mind who is the

Page 12339

1 witness, I may expect that it was disclosed.

2 JUDGE ORIE: No, but the question was whether your attention was

3 drawn to the fact that this matter was discussed with the witness.

4 THE WITNESS: No. No. No.

5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

6 And for the record, Your Honour, that was the only item on the

7 proofing statement for this witness. So that stands for whatever it

8 stands for.

9 Q. Now I'd like to ask you, sir --

10 JUDGE ORIE: But then of course we should know what caused.

11 MR. IVETIC: I -- [Overlapping Speakers].

12 JUDGE ORIE: Was this a proofing session which covered --

13 Ms. Hasan, I'm asking a question to the witness.

14 Was this a proofing session which focused primarily on the matter

15 contained in the proofing note or was it an overall proofing session?

16 THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honour, I say in this way not just

17 because I am very familiar with my work product with this road book and

18 presentation, and in fact I brief Prosecutor about the public contents of

19 this presentation, and during this discussion, also this subject came up,

20 you know, just -- and I explained my view of the events including the

21 timing of wounding.

22 JUDGE ORIE: It's not a very direct answer. Let me go through it

23 in some details.

24 You say you're familiar with your work product. Okay, that's

25 fine, with the road book and presentation. And in fact, I briefed the

Page 12340

1 Prosecutor about the contents of this presentation.

2 What is "this presentation"?

3 THE WITNESS: I'm referring to CD we just watched and also to the

4 book.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then you said during this discussion, also

6 this subject came up.

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, because as you see in the

8 presentation, and in this book, this road book, we are talking about

9 Kravica warehouse and what happened in Kravica warehouse and there was

10 probably the question or discussion when it happened exactly, the timing

11 of these events. And I pointed out to Ms. Hasan that it should be

12 Bratunac health log book there is information also that the mention these

13 three persons who were involved in this incident in Kravica but the

14 timing, according to me admission, then to the Bratunac health centre is

15 different. But they were wounded in the same incident. Two of them were

16 wounded in the same incident, another one was killed in this incident.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Who raised that issue of the difference in times?

18 THE WITNESS: I believe I did. I did because as I said, you

19 know, I have been working for this case so many years and this particular

20 subject is quite really familiar to me. And we -- during the course of

21 our investigation we tried to establish exactly the time when execution

22 occurred, exact time.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was there any earlier occasion where you have

24 pointed at these differences in time.

25 THE WITNESS: Definitely, Your Honour. It was well known to the

Page 12341

1 members of my team at least that people who used to work for Srebrenica

2 team sometime ago.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Why was it then necessary to raise it again as the

4 only subject matter which apparently found its way to the proofing note.

5 THE WITNESS: I think this part, this information sounded quite

6 new for Ms. Hasan and probably she decided to put in the proofing notes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Did she tell you anything about the other witness

8 and the issue raised with that other witness.

9 THE WITNESS: No, she didn't.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

11 Ms. Hasan -- yes.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: It seems there's been some sort of allegation of

13 misconduct here, and if that's the case I'd like for us to be able to

14 address it. We don't need to address it in front of this witness, but if

15 that's the case --

16 JUDGE ORIE: What happens, Mr. McCloskey, is there was -- some

17 questions were put by Mr. Ivetic which triggered a need to carefully

18 establish the facts which were apparently relevant for Mr. Ivetic and may

19 be relevant for the Chamber as well. That's simply facts. I didn't ask

20 for anything than facts, did I? As I usually try --

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I believe there's some insinuation

22 of some -- that there's something improper about Ms. Hasan's asking

23 Mr. Blaszczyk about this subject --

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers].

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- and that's apparently where he's going, and I

Page 12342

1 don't see that there's anything improper about this. And if it's going

2 to be gone into further, I would like for us to be able to discuss it.

3 If that's not what's happening and I'm misreading this, I will sit down.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me say the following: The line of questioning

5 initiated by Mr. Ivetic required, in my view, and that's the reason why

6 to some extent I took over, a careful consideration of facts, first of

7 all, before you start thinking things Mr. Ivetic may have had on his mind

8 but then not expressed.

9 Mr. Ivetic, I think -- am I far wrong that it came to your mind

10 at least for a second that there may have improper behaviour but that you

11 also thought it important to know the facts before to further develop

12 those thoughts?

13 MR. IVETIC: Yes, and also --

14 JUDGE ORIE: And did I assist new that respect?

15 MR. IVETIC: You did assist me, Your Honour. And it also goes

16 towards the reliability and credibility of this witness and the motives

17 that he has to testify, and that's why I'm asking about the facts that he

18 knows and has access to, and that's I believe -- that was the focus of my

19 asking him and I have some additional questions in that regard that I

20 think will be relevant.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we move on.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I'm not dreaming this up. He used

23 the word and suggested that this topic in this proofing note was a mere

24 coincidence despite that it being the question of the earlier witness,

25 and it was of course no mere coincidence and there's nothing wrong with

Page 12343

1 it so he -- I know what he's suggesting. And he's suggesting some sort

2 of impropriety.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, we'll move on.

4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

5 Q. Now, in relation to the knowledge that you say -- that either

6 we've talked about, that you have about the log book and what the actual

7 columns mean, did you at any point in time do any prior investigative

8 work to ascertain or confirm your view of what the columns on the log

9 book mean?

10 A. I personally not but I am aware that my colleagues did it.

11 Q. Okay. Now, in relation to your testimony about -- or your

12 knowledge about the log book, you identify the first entry on the page, I

13 will not say the name because, again, it's my understanding that we're

14 not supposed to mention the names, and this individual is listed or

15 identified as a Red Beret member, and I believe that you -- well -- I

16 believe you mention that one member of the army was wound in this -- at

17 this location in Kravica -- at Kravica warehouse.

18 Am I correct that this unit with the designation of the

19 Red Berets had in fact been disbanded as a unit of the Bratunac Brigade

20 at some point in time prior to July of 1995?

21 A. I am afraid that you are wrong. That unit was disbanded but

22 after -- after events in July of 1995, and most of the people from these

23 Red Berets unit the -- unit were deployed as MUP members to Srebrenica

24 police station but after -- after -- I think it was sometime, if I could

25 remember, 14 or 15 of July 1995. Until then, the unit was the part of

Page 12344

1 the 3rd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade and existed.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you gave rather specific information

3 today at transcript page 8 of the temporary transcript about the log book

4 or at least about the times when these individuals were admitted for

5 treatment apart from looking at the log book, so I'd like to ask you

6 if it -- first of all, is it correct that on 27 May 2013 after you took

7 the oath to testify and after you were instructed not to have contact

8 about your testimony that you received an e-mail from a fellow

9 Prosecution investigator giving precisely the substance of the meaning of

10 the times in this log book which you were advised to disregard by the

11 Office of the Prosecutor?

12 A. Yes, this is correct. I received an e-mail from my colleague,

13 and later on I -- immediately after the e-mail I received a telephone

14 from the Prosecutor advising me to disregard this e-mail and -- yeah.

15 Q. So what I need to know, sir, is did you receive the advice to

16 disregard this e-mail in time or did you in fact read this e-mail that

17 was sent to you after you had taken your oath?

18 A. Your Honour, I have to admit that I read this e-mail because I

19 received the e-mail I just read this e-mail and yeah, I read it.

20 Q. And would you agree with me the substance of this e-mail from

21 your fellow investigator is precisely the testimony as to when, what the

22 meaning of the times on this log book we are looking at is?

23 A. Yes, yes, but in fact it -- you have surprised me.

24 Q. Fair enough I'm just trying to get the facts, sir.

25 Now, I'd like to clarify them with you. At transcript page

Page 12345

1 11.587, lines 1 through 7, in talking about the killing of persons at the

2 Kravica warehouse, you say that the killings were done by the

3 Sekovici detachment of the police and probably one member of the army.

4 And first of all I want to clarify with you now, the Sekovici detachment

5 that you were talking about would be a MUP police unit; is that right?

6 A. If I am referring here to Sekovici detachment, I am referring to

7 the Special Police Brigade Sekovici Detachment, this is MUP unit.

8 Q. Okay. And now apart from the one individual who was wounded that

9 we've talked about that you said was a member of the Red Berets that you

10 claim was an army personnel, can you tell us what is the basis of your

11 assertion and testimony that probably one army soldier was present and

12 participated in the killings at Kravica? What would be the basis of that

13 testimony?

14 A. Yes, except -- except these records from the Bratunac health

15 centre, you know, proving that one member of the army was present over

16 there, that he was wounded during this incident, we are in possession

17 also of statements of the witnesses who testified or were interviewed by

18 the state court in Bosnia-Herzegovina. A few of them, they were members

19 of the army in fact in Kravica Battalion, as far as I could remember.

20 And I do not remember now from the top of my head but at least one of

21 them was indicted by the state court, whether he was sentenced, I do not

22 remember.

23 Q. And so now I'd like to understand your previous testimony where

24 you said there was at least one -- excuse me, at least one VRS member

25 present and participating in the killings at Kravica. Would that one

Page 12346

1 member that you're talking about be the individual that's identified in

2 the health logs from the Red Berets or this other individual that you've

3 just now identified?

4 A. I think at that time when I was talking about it, I referred to

5 the member of the Red Berets. I base it also from my experience, from my

6 interview we conducted with the Commander of the Red Berets at that time,

7 and it was very visible that he wanted let's say to get rid of this --

8 this person, you know, from his jurisdiction, let's say, at this time.

9 He said during his interview that this person was not -- not very well

10 subordinated soldier and he went to Kravica on his own.

11 Q. Okay. Well that's a -- what I'd like to ask you about. Would

12 you agree with me that for purposes of your investigative work, that army

13 soldiers rarely operate individually and generally operate in units or

14 groups while performing army duties?

15 A. Yes, I agree.

16 Q. So then you cannot exclude the possibility that this soldier at

17 Kravica was indeed there for personal rather than official reasons.

18 A. I cannot exclude it because we have no proof that other members

19 of the Red Berets were present in Kravica at that time, at least we have

20 no such information.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, in relation to this incident at Kravica

22 warehouse, is it correct and did your investigation reveal that prior to

23 the killings taking place, there was an attempt by at least one detainee

24 to overpower the guards present and take the weapon of one of the guards

25 present?

Page 12347

1 A. Well, Your Honours, our investigation revealed that this incident

2 with -- related to one guard who was killed by detainee, it happened.

3 But when it happened, this is still open question for me, in fact,

4 whether it happened because before that there was another killings took

5 place and whether this incident, this particular incident kind of

6 sparked, you know, just the following events it's just the killings of

7 entire people, you know, which were kept in Kravica warehouse. But

8 having looked at the Kravica warehouse itself, we know it -- has been

9 confirmed by belief that the people were kept and locked in the western

10 part of Kravica warehouse. We have two survivors, Your Honours, we have

11 survivor from the western part of Kravica warehouse and from eastern part

12 of Kravica warehouse. On the Petrovic video that broadcasted or the

13 redacted -- let's say portion from Kravica we see the bus in front of

14 Kravica warehouse and the pile of the bodies outside the bus.

15 We are convinced --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaszczyk, what you're doing at this moment, you

17 are giving a lot of context which, as I understand, is tending to

18 demonstrate that what the Defence suggests must be wrong and goes far

19 beyond what the question is. Because in the first two lines you have

20 answered the question already.

21 Therefore, let's proceed and try to carefully consider that

22 you're here as a witness to answer the questions and not to defend a

23 case.

24 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 12348

1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. And now, sir, I'd like to ask you about something you just

3 testified about. You said at temporary transcript page 59, and I will

4 paraphrase, but you said that -- it still -- that when this incident

5 relating to one guard who was killed by the detainee, when it happened is

6 still an open question for you, and then you on to say, this particular

7 incident kind of sparked, you know, just the following events being the

8 killing of the entire people.

9 Which particular incident may have sparked the killing of the

10 entire people? Are we talking again about the incident where the guard

11 was overpowered and his gun was taken? Are we talking about that still

12 being an open issue?

13 A. Yes, this is correct. I am talking about the same incident.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, do you recall, sir, that at one point in the

15 video, and that would I guess be the Petrovic video which has the numbers

16 P1538, P1541, and P1542 at the moment, do you recall that at one point in

17 the video that as Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Petrovic are travelling and

18 talking about the locations that they're passing that a call comes in

19 through the radio that -- that they should come because something has

20 happened. Do you recall that segment of the video?

21 A. I recall conversation through the radio handset or car radio, but

22 there is no information that something had happened.

23 MR. IVETIC: Okay. With the assistance of the OTP I would like

24 to now play that video in Sanction, and I believe the time reference I

25 have is for P1538 which was 65 ter number 22422, and the segment at issue

Page 12349

1 is from 17 minutes and 25 seconds to 17 minutes and 55 seconds

2 approximately.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. IVETIC: If we can stop. And I note that the subtitles

5 appear to be a little bit behind the actual audio, but recorded is an NMG

6 on Motorola saying, "Come over, there's something."

7 Q. Does that refresh your recollection, sir, that in fact there was

8 a message received over the radio to come over, there's something?

9 A. Yeah, there was such message but I'm not sure if it was directed

10 to Mr. Borovcanin at that time because we see after this segment of the

11 video that Mr. Borovcanin is still in the area of Sandici. It lasted at

12 least few minutes. He didn't rush to wherever location.

13 Q. Okay. And did you perform any investigation to determine if in

14 fact this was linked to anything that was going on in the area?

15 A. If you ask whether we did ask Mr. Borovcanin during our interview

16 with him what does it mean, yeah, we did. We did. But what was his

17 answer, I do not remember from the top of my head now.

18 Q. Okay. That's fair enough.

19 Now, I want to move to a different topic but stay with the same

20 part of the video. I see now we are stopped at 17 minutes and 43

21 seconds. If we could continue playing from this point to -- well, the

22 entire segment is 21 minutes and 40 seconds, then I'll have some

23 questions about what we see here, sir. So again with the assistance of

24 Ms. Stewart and the Sanction system, if we could play it up until 21:40

25 on this video which is again P1538, the Petrovic raw original video.

Page 12350

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. IVETIC: If we can stop here and we've stopped at 19 minutes

3 and 12.7 seconds.

4 Q. Now, sir, would you agree with me that at this point in the video

5 the gentleman that gave the figure of surrendered or captured persons

6 essentially also said that that number was exaggerated?

7 A. Yes, yes, he said so.

8 Q. Now I'd like to revisit some of your testimony from the first day

9 when I believe the same segment was shown although the remainder of it --

10 but for now I'd like to focus on this section. And that's at transcript

11 page 11.593, beginning at line 1, and I will read for you the selection:

12 "Q. Now he, he makes a reference to them having 3.000, that 3.000

13 to 4.000 have surrendered. In terms of that figure, and your

14 investigation, does that figure sound about right?

15 "A. Yes.

16 "Q. During your investigation, review the statements of the

17 witnesses, and --

18 "A. Yeah, I believe that the figure is quite right. At this time

19 of day, 13th of July afternoon, that they may have about few thousand of

20 people."

21 And that ends at line 7 of page 11.593. And the question I have

22 for you, sir, is what statements in evidence are you referring to in your

23 answer?

24 A. First of all, Your Honours, I am referring to the statements of

25 few survivors who were transported to Bratunac. They were kept in

Page 12351

1 Bratunac Vuk Karadzic school and then -- and also some people were kept

2 at the stadium and old school in Bratunac.

3 I am referring, Your Honour, also -- we have aerial images of --

4 from this period from 13 July 1995. On these aerial images, aerial

5 images of Sandici meadow, we have aerial images of Nova Kasaba soccer

6 field. For example, on Nova Kasaba soccer field we see or calculate that

7 at least about few hundred people kept at Nova Kasaba field. And as I

8 said, we interviewed quite many people, not only the survivors but also

9 the soldiers and MUP members of units who participated in this operation.

10 But I am not referring -- I didn't want to say that this 3.000

11 and 4.000 were actually surrendered to this person or person, no. I was

12 referring to general situation on the area.

13 Q. Now, I wanted to ask you a follow-up question, but first I have

14 to correct with you, you say you had aerial images from the period of is

15 it 15 July? Because we're talking about 13 July. The transcript

16 reflects 15 July, I don't recall if you said 15 or 13 to be honest.

17 THE WITNESS: I apologise for my pronunciations but it is 13

18 July, one three.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, so far you've told us about a couple hundred

20 people on a pitch on a soccer field. How do you get from that to 4.000?

21 Or is this the extent of the information that you have that leads you to

22 believe that this individual, his figure is accurate even though he's

23 said it's not, it's exaggerated?

24 A. Your Honours, as far as I remember, these aerial images from the

25 13 July 1995, one three, July 1995, about noon -- about 2.00, if I could

Page 12352

1 remember, but when Mr. Petrovic is in Sandici meadow there is already

2 about 5.00, three hours later. We have few hundred, about 1.000 people

3 in Nova Kasaba, let's say. We have few hundred in Sandici meadow. We

4 know also that in mean time lot of people were transported from Nova

5 Kasaba and from Sandici meadow to Bratunac and also to Kravica warehouse.

6 The total number, I'm not referring even to the people, you know,

7 just who were kept, for example, in -- at the stadium in Bratunac because

8 unfortunately we don't have such information -- detailed information. We

9 know that the people were kept there, there were many of them, but how

10 many of them we don't know.

11 Q. Thank you for clarifying that for me, sir.

12 Now earlier today at temporary transcript page 6 you were shown a

13 portion of the video, I believe, later on in this same video where you

14 talked of machine-gun fire and explosions being heard in the background

15 while the filming was going on in Sandici. Would you agree with me that

16 during this time, the 13th of July, 1995, that there was also shooting

17 and fighting going on in the surrounding areas of the forest between the

18 Bosnian Muslim column and the Serb forces which could also be the source

19 of the sound we heard in the video?

20 A. Your Honour, in fact there was a fighting but mostly the fighting

21 was concentrated during the morning hours, you know, just a few Muslims

22 tried to the road in the area -- yeah. That one leading from Bratunac to

23 Konjevic Polje and then from Konjevic Polje to Milici. But we don't have

24 any indication that fighting occurred, heavy fighting occurred in this

25 area on the afternoon 13 July 1995, especially in Sandici area, but we

Page 12353

1 have also in other statements, I believe testimony as well, one of the

2 MUP members who -- who is referring to -- in his statement, he's

3 referring to the shooting and explosions in Kravica warehouse. I

4 connected all this information together.

5 Q. Okay now. Let me see if I can understand your answer here. At

6 lines 10 through 11, you say:

7 "But we don't have any indication that fighting occurred, heavy

8 fighting occurred in this area on the afternoon 13 July 1995."

9 The question I have for you, sir, is: Are you talking about any

10 fighting or heavy fighting? Which is it?

11 A. I am talking about heavy fighting. We see the Praga along the

12 road shooting on the hills to the people who are passing through the

13 hills, but I don't see any reverse shooting from another side toward the

14 Serb soldiers, and we have no information that any fighting occurred in

15 the vicinity of Sandici meadow. At this time of day.

16 Q. Okay. Now, what about there being any fighting at 13 July, are

17 you saying that there was no fighting, no incoming fire from Bosnian

18 Muslim side on 13 July? Is that your testimony, sir?

19 A. No, I did -- no, I didn't say that there was no fighting.

20 Definitely there was fighting as well but not in the vicinity of Sandici

21 meadow.

22 Q. Okay. Fair enough.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you are not the counsel that examined

24 the witness. It's usual that if you intervene in a witness examination,

25 that it's done by counsel who has examined that witness. I don't know

Page 12354

1 what you want to tell us, but I just bring this to your attention.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and I understand and I try to do that as

3 infrequently as possible. We're in an unusual situation as I have just

4 been in another courtroom with a witness that has just provided some

5 information that I would -- on this topic that I would like to be able to

6 give to the Defence, because I think it's important for them to have it

7 and I just --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, if you give it to the Defence, that does not

9 necessarily mean that it should be brought to the attention of the

10 Chamber already at this moment. There is -- we have a bit of a rule that

11 if there's late disclosure that the Chamber should be informed about that

12 and apparently it is a disclosure issue, yes, and that rule says that if

13 disclosure is late - not to say that any party can be blamed for it being

14 late, but it may have arrived late - that the Chamber should be informed

15 about it immediately, which I find a rule which is perhaps a bit

16 questionable because if it is incriminating information, then I think it

17 would not be appropriate to bring it immediately to the attention of the

18 Chamber but then to bring it to the attention of the other party, in this

19 case the Defence first.

20 I suggest the following. Let's take an early break and disclose

21 whatever there is that's there to be disclosed. So I do understand that

22 you are acting as the responsible officer of the Prosecution with

23 disclosure obligations rather than a counsel who deals with a witness

24 examination at this moment.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

Page 12355

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

3 [The witness stands down]

4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break and resume at 1.30 unless the

5 disclosure is so voluminous that you need more time, Mr. McCloskey, then

6 the Chamber will basically wait until disclosure issues have been dealt

7 with.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could I just tell you -- I don't need to give you

9 the information but it's a very unusual situation. I don't think it's

10 necessarily late disclosure.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. I'm just -- we take a break now and if

12 there's any reason to bring something to the attention of the Chamber, it

13 can be done after the break.

14 --- Recess taken at 1.12 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

17 I'm looking at you, Mr. McCloskey, and of course the Chamber

18 becomes more and more curious what happened, but I don't know whether the

19 parties consider it relevant to bring it to the Chamber's attention.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would like to, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: And is there any objection to that before we begin?

22 MR. IVETIC: There's not and I can put on the record that I don't

23 think there's any late disclosure as far as I'm concerned.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So since Mr. Ivetic agrees that it should be brought

25 to our attention, please do so.

Page 12356

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I was just cross-examining Mr. Borovcanin who had

2 just talked about this very issue that he was being cross-examined on,

3 the potential gunfire in the area, and I wasn't sure they'd been

4 watching. It turned out they had been and they had all the information

5 so it's no problem. But I wanted to get it to him as soon as possible

6 because he was in the middle of his cross-examination on that very point.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's appropriately dealt with. It's still

8 is late disclosure not because you were too late but it came very late

9 which I think under the Tribunal Rules is still late disclosure. That

10 means not before the start of the trial.

11 [The witness takes the stand]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Sir, we left off talking about the 13th of July 1995 and the

15 issue of fighting in the area. I'd like to ask you about two things.

16 Before I get to the matter that I discussed with Mr. McCloskey, I would

17 like to ask you of something else that I know of independently. Did your

18 investigation reveal and demonstrate that in the morning hours of 13 July

19 sometime approximately between 4.00 and 5.00 in the morning precisely in

20 this area, about 500 metres from the Sandici meadows towards Konjevic

21 Polje, that in fact armed Bosnian Muslim fighters attacked Serb forces

22 and indeed inflicted casualties, two wounded policemen and one killed

23 policeman in the course of this combat initiated by the Bosnian Muslim

24 fighters precisely on the morning of 13 July 1995, 500 metres away from

25 these Sandici meadows, did your investigation reveal that, sir?

Page 12357

1 A. Yes, Your Honours. Our investigation confirmed that incident

2 took place in the early morning hours of the 13th of July, 1995, but it

3 wasn't even 500 metres from Sandici meadows, even less.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. And now, in the Petrovic video there is --

5 pardon me, in the Studio B video which is P1540, I believe that there's

6 also gunfire being heard there as the vehicle is passing the Kravica

7 warehouse; do you recall that?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. And it's been brought to my attention that a witness in the

10 Karadzic case, Mr. Borovcanin himself, testified yesterday that that

11 gunfire he believed was the result of ongoing combat in the hills. Now,

12 I'm not too concerned about Mr. Borovcanin. He's not here to testify on

13 this matter. I want to ask you about your -- your investigative work.

14 Can you either confirm or deny that assertion that there was gunfire

15 going on as a result of ongoing combat in the hills even at that time as

16 the vehicle was passing, the vehicle where Borovcanin and Mr. Petrovic

17 was passing the Kravica warehouse on the 13th of July, 1995?

18 A. I cannot confirm, either confirm or deny any fighting happened in

19 this area when the vehicle was passing Kravica warehouse, but definitely

20 it wasn't heavy fighting. At least I have not any information that it

21 occurred.

22 Q. Let me ask you this, do you have any information as the result of

23 your investigation and your many years working on this matter, do you

24 have any material that would tend to indicate that there was heavy

25 fighting and in fact heavy casualties resulting from the fighting in the

Page 12358

1 days leading up to this time period, that is the days preceding 13 July

2 1995?

3 A. Yes, the previous question I was referring to this time of day

4 but yes, yes, definitely in this area, was heavy fighting also conducted

5 by the column and VRS units.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. Now I'd like to look at another portion

7 of this same video and that would be P1538 again for the record. And

8 this is a part that is not -- I should say that was not dealt with in

9 detail in your road booklet which is P1539 but I think it is relevant and

10 it has been introduced now as part of the video:

11 Do you recall later on this film there's a segment I believe from

12 the 14th of July, 1995, when there is some footage and some interviews

13 taken of returning Serb refugees returning to their ransacked apartments

14 in Srebrenica town itself?

15 A. Yes, I recall this part of the video.

16 Q. And again with the assistance of the Prosecution and the use of

17 the Sanction system, I would like to show a segment of this video which

18 is again P1538. And this will be the section from 30 minutes and 24

19 seconds to 34 minutes and 12 seconds, and I see now that we have it.

20 And, sir, I'd ask that you follow along and then I'll have some

21 questions about this after we view this clip, so we can be -- start it

22 now.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. IVETIC: Stop there, please. And for the record we stopped

25 at 34 minutes and 11.3 seconds of this video.

Page 12359

1 Q. Now I want to take this chronologically, sir. At the beginning,

2 first we had the one woman that's now visible on the screen in the blue

3 shirt talking about killings that had occurred in the years prior when

4 her husband was taken away and their children were killed by the

5 Srebrenica defenders, the Muslim side. And this individual is talking

6 about 23 members of his family having been killed and slaughtered. I

7 want to ask you, did your investigative work into this area involve

8 verifying or investigating any of these matters that were raised by these

9 individuals interviewed on this video that we just reviewed?

10 A. Your Honours, I was a member of the team investigating the events

11 following the fall of or the liberation of Srebrenica. The crimes

12 committed by the Serbs forces on the Muslim population. I was a member

13 of this team. My colleagues, my investigative colleagues who used to

14 work for another team, we called that at that time team 9, they

15 investigated the crimes committed by the Muslim forces on the Serb

16 population in this area. But we were not involved in this investigation.

17 We are aware that these crimes happened, occurred, but we are not

18 involved in this investigation. I mean me personally.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. And now I'd like to talk about the individual

20 that we saw who is now visible just on the right to the screen that was

21 interviewing by the name of Ratomir Marjanovic. Would you agree with me

22 that although he was still in his army uniform when giving the interview,

23 he appears to be engaging in personal tasks relating to his damaged

24 property in Srebrenica rather than carrying out any official army

25 function pursuant to any army orders at the time that he was being

Page 12360

1 filmed?

2 A. Yes, yes, I would agree with you.

3 Q. And if we were to focus on what he was telling the interviewer

4 here, that he had spent 14 days and 14 nights at his position prior to

5 coming there, did that accord with your investigation that in fact the

6 action in that area was so intense that Serb soldiers might have to be

7 alert and at their positions at the front lines for up to two weeks

8 straight before getting leave?

9 A. I do recall from which this battalion this Marjanovic belonged

10 to, but we know that Srebrenica operation or VRS operation started around

11 6th of July, 1995. We can easily calculate it. Take about eight days,

12 five days, let's say, to the fall of Srebrenica. Of -- if -- his unit, I

13 do not recall right now, you know, from the top of my head, you know,

14 which unit he belonged to, but I can easily check it.

15 Q. I'd like to focus on the remainder of what he discussed and I

16 think for our purposes it's probably easier to follow the transcript of

17 the video than to replay the portions of the video with subtitles, so I'd

18 like to call up now the transcripts of this video which is again P1538 in

19 e-court. And in the English, it will be page 19 and in the Serbian it

20 will be page 21 of the transcript.

21 And, sir, if you could follow along with me while we wait for the

22 Serbian version. The part that I'd like to focus on begins at just under

23 the halfway point of the page and begins, "It took three to four days."

24 And in the B/C/S, it is the approximately the fifth line from the bottom

25 of the B/C/S transcript, and I will read from the English, sir, so that

Page 12361

1 we can have exactly the parts that I'm talking about. I begin, so:

2 "Ratko Marjanovic: It took three to four days, the driving out.

3 "ZPP: And how long have you been on the positions?

4 "Ratko Marjanovic: 14 days and 14 nights non--stop.

5 "ZPP: In which direction did you chase them?

6 "Ratko Marjanovic: In the direction of the positions in Kvarac,

7 then Kozarici, Vidikovac, Bojna and Zanik, Solucusa, and so on."

8 Now, sir, looking at the geographic locations that this person

9 has identified, does that perhaps refresh your recollection as to what

10 armed formation this gentleman would have been a member of engaged in

11 combat with the Bosnian Muslim forces during the time period specified?

12 A. I think he could be the member of the 2nd Battalion of the

13 Bratunac Brigade, but I am not 100 per cent sure.

14 Q. That's fair enough, sir. That's fair enough. I'd like to

15 continue and I have some more questions. So we -- to continue where we

16 left off which is the approximately third line from the bottom in English

17 and then we'll go on to the next page when we get there. It goes as

18 follows:

19 "ZPP: Was it difficult?

20 "Ratko Marjanovic: Yes, it was difficult. It was difficult and

21 exhausting.

22 "ZPP. I bet you killed a lot of their soldiers.

23 "Ratko Marjanovic: Well yes, we did."

24 And I'd like to end there for a moment and ask you this question:

25 Sir, did you run across during your investigations that as a result of

Page 12362

1 the heavy fighting and combat between the Serb forces and the armed

2 Bosnian Muslim column in the days leading up to the 14th of July, 1995,

3 that there were in fact many Bosnian Muslim soldiers or fighters killed

4 in this combat during this time period?

5 A. Yes, during the course of our investigation we established that

6 some Muslims were killed during the time when the column tried to get to

7 free territory. It was since 11 up to 16 July 1995. But as you -- may

8 I, Your Honour?

9 This is 14 July 1995, we see this member in Srebrenica. I know

10 during the action of Srebrenica, there was not much in fact casualties

11 from both sides, you know, just from Muslim side and if -- from the

12 Serbian side, but later on, only during the trip that column took into

13 the free territory, there was fighting and there was some casualties.

14 How many, we don't know.

15 Later on, we collected some information from the surface remains.

16 Q. Now, sir, you're talking now about Srebrenica. Am I correct that

17 this gentleman is talking about fighting that was going on in these

18 locations leading up to that time period and were there casualties from

19 fighting going on in Kamenica and these locations if not Srebrenica town

20 itself?

21 A. Yes, I understand, but this location as far as I remember from

22 the map, because there are small hamlets if -- in fact, they are not far

23 from Srebrenica.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, you say that your investigation did reveal that

25 there were casualties but you don't know how many. I understand that you

Page 12363

1 can't give a specific figure, but did your investigations reveal that in

2 fact up to perhaps several thousand casualties may have resulted from the

3 combat that was going on in the surrounding hamlets and the forests in

4 the days from the 11th July through 16th July, 1995?

5 A. Definitely. We cannot talk about thousand casualties, you know,

6 just during these combat operations, just the people killed during the

7 combat. No way. It could be hundreds but ...

8 Q. So if you have no idea, then how can you say it can't be a

9 thousand, sir? What's the basis of your very firm affirmation that it

10 can't be a thousand. Could you give me the evidence for that, sir?

11 A. Okay. I can -- I will try to explain you, Your Honours. This --

12 the path which was taken by column to reach the free territory, it was to

13 the hills. Most of this area was heavy mined, in fact. I do not believe

14 and we have no indication that after the combat was over, after 16, 17

15 July, 1995, any organisation, whatever, whether it was -- there was the

16 MUP units or whether it was municipality, whatever, restoration units,

17 local units, they collected any bodies in this area because it would be

18 too much dangerous, you know, just to go to this area to collect the

19 bodies, you know. They left the bodies over there.

20 After that, after some time later on, I know that it took some

21 time after the war, in fact, you know, just the bodies were collected

22 by -- by the commission of the missing persons. I cannot give you the

23 figure, you know, just exactly how many but I think about few hundred

24 along this path which was used by the column. I believe they were

25 casualties of the combat.

Page 12364

1 Q. And the individuals whose bodies may not have been picked up as

2 you say, would those not be casualties? Would those not be people that

3 would be missing but who died under circumstances that are not what we're

4 here for today?

5 A. The bodies which were not picked up, you know, that they were

6 casualties but they were casualties of the combat operation, I don't

7 believe that they were casualties of mass executions.

8 Q. Okay. And in relation to the -- we've been talking about the

9 area near Srebrenica, is it also correct that during this time period,

10 there was also some fighting going on on the territory of Zvornik

11 municipality where a Bosnian Muslim attack occurred such that there would

12 also be Bosnian Muslim combat fatalities or casualties on that territory.

13 Do you have information about that?

14 A. Yes, yes, we are aware that there was a heavy fighting in the

15 Zvornik area.

16 Q. Okay. And with relation to these bodies that would have been the

17 result of combat casualties both on the Zvornik municipality and on the

18 Srebrenica or Bratunac municipal area, would it not have been -- would it

19 not have been standard procedure for those bodies to have been recovered

20 and buried in joint graves or communal graves according to your

21 understanding of the existing procedures that are applicable during a

22 time of war as to asanacija or sanitation of the terrain or do you not

23 know about that?

24 A. Yes, definitely the bodies were recovered later on and put in the

25 graves, but we are talking about 30 different graves. We are not talking

Page 12365

1 about the mass graves where we found the victims of mass executions.

2 Q. Well, sir, I would point to you that RM316 has given testimony in

3 this courtroom in that same chair that in fact we are talking about some

4 of the same bodies. Do you have any investigation that?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, you'd like to have a source?

6 MS. HASAN: Sorry, for the witness, I'm not sure he knows who

7 RM316 is. And if there is a source for that, that would be very helpful.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MR. IVETIC: I think we to go into private session.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Whether the witness should know, my recollection

11 doesn't serve me well enough to know whether it is public knowledge, but

12 if you have a source, Mr. Ivetic, then.

13 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I believe that was a protected witness and I

14 believe that we would have to then go into private session.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If you first give us a --

16 MR. IVETIC: 23 May 2013, the same witness who talked about in

17 the Bratunac log book.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I mean page number.

19 MR. IVETIC: I'm trying to do that, Your Honours. My LiveNote

20 doesn't co-operate sometimes.

21 MS. HASAN: I believe the witness Mr. Ivetic is referring to is

22 RM306 and not RM316.

23 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. That is correct.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then for the time being, you may proceed. We'll try

25 to find the source.