130611ED

Page 12465

1 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Pepic.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pepic, I'd like to remind you that you're still

4 bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your

5 testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

6 the truth.

7 WITNESS: MILENKO PEPIC [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic will now continue his

10 cross-examination.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Pepic.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. If I remember correctly, we ended our working day yesterday as we

15 discussed your next task, which meant deployment to the Zvornik

16 municipality; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please tell us how many members of your detachment set off at

19 that point to perform the task in the Baljkovica sector?

20 A. I don't know the exact number but there was the 1st Detachment

21 and elements of the -- our 2nd Detachment and logistics, mortars.

22 Q. Can you remember if any of the hardware that you had at your

23 disposal was used in combat?

24 A. As far as I remember, mortars were. I don't know about the rest.

25 Q. Please tell the Chamber if you can remember what the task

Page 12466

1 consisted of specifically, what were your duties?

2 A. We received an order dispatching out -- dispatching us from

3 Zvornik to Baljkovica to help the Serbian forces which were manning

4 positions in the area, and to try and stop the breakthrough of the Muslim

5 forces which were making their way out of Srebrenica. That's as much --

6 that's as much as I remember.

7 Q. As you arrived in the field, who defined your disposition?

8 A. Well, we received all our orders from the detachment commander,

9 Mr. Cuturic, Oficir.

10 Q. Did you at some point observe the column of the 28th Division?

11 A. No, I don't remember.

12 Q. How long did you stay at these positions?

13 A. Before we reached these positions, we spent the night on our way

14 to Baljkovica. I don't know exactly where it was. There was heavy rain

15 and severe weather. That's why I remember it.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question has not been answered,

17 Mr. Stojanovic. Can we try to get an answer?

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question was: How long did you stay at that

20 position?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understand correctly, we spent

22 the night on our way and then on the following day we took up these

23 positions.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when you took up the positions, how long were

25 you on the positions?

Page 12467

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very briefly, an hour at most.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that your question, Mr. Stojanovic?

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance.

4 Q. This is my next question: When one hour passed and you were

5 there, did you receive another order?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what was that order?

8 A. If I remember correctly, the order was to abort all combat

9 activities and to withdraw to the nearby hills surrounding Baljkovica in

10 order to make way for the Muslim civilians and soldiers who were making

11 their way, breaking out of the area in the direction of Tuzla.

12 Q. Were you told who it was who had achieved a truce with the other

13 side?

14 A. I don't think so. I don't remember.

15 Q. Did you carry out the order?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. From the position where you were, were you able to see the column

18 of the 28th Division pass by?

19 A. No. I wasn't able to see it, but I did hear --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, it's now the second time that you

21 are -- in your question you are incorporating a reference to the column

22 of the 28th Division. Now, the witness told us about Muslim civilians

23 and soldiers who were making their way, breaking out of the area. Now,

24 your question may create confusion. We have heard quite some evidence

25 about a column of people which was of mixed composition in most of the

Page 12468

1 evidence we heard, and then to ask about a column of the 28th Division

2 might confuse. So would you always clearly elicit from this witness or

3 any other witness what the column -- how the column was -- of what the

4 column was composed so as to know whether it was civilian or purely

5 military or whatever. Please proceed.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. That will be my next

7 question.

8 Q. What did you hear, Mr. Pepic? You said that you heard the column

9 pass by.

10 A. I heard, as probably did the other members of the unit, that they

11 were rejoicing, opening fire to demonstrate their joy, if I remember

12 well.

13 Q. How long did you stay at this position?

14 A. I don't recall specifically, but very soon we received another

15 order to retreat to the base at Sehovici.

16 Q. Throughout that time, your detachment was not involved in any

17 combat with that group that was coming that way?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you. When this particular task was over, you said that you

20 returned to the base. What base was that? Where was it physically?

21 A. Our base was in the town of Sehovici at Lomnica hotel.

22 Q. Did you at any point find out whether an investigation was

23 launched within the police structures about the events surrounding the

24 Kravica warehouse?

25 A. Not at the time, no.

Page 12469

1 Q. When did you learn that proceedings were initiated against some

2 of the members of your unit?

3 A. I don't recall exactly, but when one of the members of our

4 detachment was arrested, we found out that there was an investigation

5 underway.

6 Q. Do you know how many members of your detachment were found guilty

7 and convicted in the meantime?

8 A. I don't know exactly. Ten, perhaps 12.

9 Q. Mr. Pepic, did you have an opportunity to learn at any time how

10 many victims of the fighting around Zvornik there were?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions for you.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I have one additional question. You

15 said you were not engaged in any combat activities against those groups,

16 I think it was said. Now, the use of mortars, which you earlier told us

17 about, what targets were chosen for those -- for the use of those

18 mortars?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly, but the

20 positions of the Serbian army were shelled from the Muslim side, from the

21 Muslim positions, and I suppose that the positions of the Muslim army

22 were in turn shelled by our own forces. That's as much as I remember.

23 JUDGE ORIE: But you don't know that, exactly what the targets

24 were?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly because they

Page 12470

1 were always behind our backs. We didn't know what the targets were that

2 they were engaging.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Shin, any need to re-examine the

4 witness?

5 MR. SHIN: No questions on redirect, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Prosecution has no further questions for

7 you and neither has the Chamber, this concludes your testimony in this

8 Court, Mr. Pepic. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to

9 The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were put to you

10 by the parties. I wish you a safe return home again and I think --

11 I thank Mr. Petrovic for his assistance. You may follow the usher.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that for the next witness where we need

15 face distortion, voice distortion and pseudonym, that we need a break

16 anyhow to prepare, especially for the voice distortion, Madam Registrar;

17 is that correct? Yes, I see it's correct.

18 Mr. Groome, anything to be raised before we take a break?

19 MR. GROOME: There is, Your Honour. There are some procedural

20 matters related to the next witness, so if the Chamber wants to deal with

21 them now the Prosecution is prepared to do that. Mr. Traldi is here in

22 court.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, Mr. Shin apparently is seeking your

24 attention, Mr. Groome.

25 MR. SHIN: May I be excused, Your Honour?

Page 12471

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are --

2 MR. SHIN: Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Shin.

4 Mr. Traldi, what is bothering you?

5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, in its response to our Rule 92 ter

6 motion for this witness, the Defence had objected to the addition of the

7 associated exhibits to our Rule 65 ter list. If they maintain that

8 objection, then I'd be prepared to address the matter now but I would

9 inquire with them first whether they do maintain that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I think there were six, if I'm not mistaken.

11 MR. TRALDI: I believe it's five, Your Honour, but I can check.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Which is a limited number. Mr. Ivetic?

13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, it is a limited number but I believe we

14 specified the nature of our objection in the filing, and we do stand by

15 those objections that were in the filed response.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Traldi has an opportunity to further

17 address the matter.

18 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour. The law on the addition of

19 documents to a party's Rule 65 ter list is comprehensively set out in

20 this Chamber's decisions and I won't go back through it here. I'd simply

21 refer to, for instance, the decision on the second Prosecution motion to

22 amend the Rule 65 ter list, 27 June 2012, or the fourth motion to amend

23 the Rule 65 ter list on 9 January 2013. In my submission, the admission

24 of these documents is clearly in the interests of justice for three

25 primary reasons: First, the Chamber has recognised that a Rule 92 ter

Page 12472

1 motion is an appropriate time at which to seek to add documents to a

2 party's Rule 65 ter list. I'd refer Your Honours to the

3 Status Conference of 19 January 2012 at transcript page 157.

4 Second, the Prosecution tendered the statement in accordance with

5 the Chamber's preferences, a preference that in at least one filing the

6 Defence has represented it shares. The associated exhibits should be

7 added to the 65 ter list as a matter of course and admitted to help the

8 Chamber understand and evaluate the statement.

9 Finally, these are simple documents, sketches and a marked map

10 which illustrate the witness's evidence for the Chamber, all five are

11 associated exhibits to the statement and were disclosed on DVD

12 29 July 2011, almost two years ago. The Defence has had them for more

13 than 22 months and consequently is not prejudiced by their addition.

14 That concludes my submission, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

16 Any response, Mr. Ivetic?

17 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours, while the number of documents may

18 be small in number, and while the nature of the documents may be such

19 that they are, as counsel has indicated, short or simple, we must

20 remember how this case has progressed. These documents were disclosed as

21 counsel indicated not by themselves but with many other documents. They

22 were not identified for use with this witness on the Rule 65 ter list

23 that was required of the Prosecution in February of 2012. There has been

24 no explanation, no reasoning for why the Prosecution waited for over a

25 year to identify these specific documents among the thousands of

Page 12473

1 documents that were disclosed to the Defence to make them aware that they

2 were to be used for this witness. This is a case where the Defence has

3 been since the beginning of trial dealing with a large number of

4 documents that were late disclosed by the Prosecution, that are critical

5 documents of the nature that the Prosecution has obligations to disclose

6 and which the Defence using its personnel have been trying to process and

7 trying to come to terms with. And it is a situation where, in the

8 totality of circumstances, we have had unprecedented difficulties in

9 processing the late disclosed documents that we received just prior to

10 the start of trial, that I believe was a full two-thirds of the documents

11 that were required to be disclosed to the Defence.

12 Under those circumstances, Your Honours, we believe that it is

13 inappropriate for the Prosecution, without showing good cause as required

14 under the jurisprudence, to seek not for just this witness but for

15 several witnesses these late additions to their Rule 65 ter list, as I

16 believe this is not the only witness for whom such a request has been

17 made at such a late time. Further than that, we would just refer to the

18 written submissions that we have made on this matter. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Just one question. I'm seeking

20 clarification. Most of the documents are sketches made by the witness

21 himself and you say out of the thousands of documents, it was very

22 difficult for you to imagine that it would -- this selection, the

23 sketches made by the witness himself, were directly attached to his

24 statements, that those were the ones the Prosecution would seek to

25 tender? Is that well understood?

Page 12474

1 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, it's my understanding that that is

2 the purpose of 65 ter, that the party is supposed to give notice of

3 exhibits to be used at trial.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That wasn't my question. You presented the matter

5 as if it came as a -- out of the blue, that especially these out of the

6 thousands of documents were the ones the Prosecution would like to use

7 where they are intrinsically linked to the statement and are the sketches

8 made by the witness himself. You say they do not in any way stand out as

9 the first documents you would expect to be used?

10 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour, that's not what I said. I'd like

11 to repeat what I said. The Prosecution did not give notice on the

12 Rule 65 ter list that these documents would be used at trial. That is

13 the purpose of Rule 65 ter. If we want to focus on the documents as

14 being simple I don't believe that's in the Rule. I don't believe that's

15 in the jurisprudence. I believe that the protections afforded under the

16 Statute and the Rules to accused need to be upheld and that is why in

17 this case, as in other cases, the Prosecution has not included these

18 materials under Rule 65 ter list, they have not given sufficient good

19 cause for why they should be added late, and, therefore, as a matter of

20 principle and according to the Rules, they should be denied.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 Mr. Traldi?

23 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I just wanted to correct one thing that

24 Mr. Ivetic said just now which is that the Defence hadn't been informed

25 when these documents were disclosed that they were associated with this

Page 12475

1 witness. Aside from the witness's name which appears on the documents,

2 the spreadsheet that we provided along with the batch 1 disclosure, as

3 I understand it -- sorry, the documents were provided, again, in batch 14

4 which was accompanied by a spreadsheet which listed the name of the

5 witness and the documents being associated to that witness. That

6 disclosure was also more than a year ago, 26 April 2012.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Any other matter, Mr. Traldi?

8 MR. TRALDI: No, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that we -- before we take a break,

10 I'll deal with a few matters which are still on my procedural agenda and

11 then we will take a break most likely in six minutes from now. We will

12 consider the matter raised by Mr. Traldi and in the 92 ter motion on the

13 admission of the -- no, the adding of the documents to the 65 ter list.

14 But first, I'll deal with a few other matters.

15 First, in its Rule 92 ter motion for Witness Saliha Osmanovic,

16 RM325, the Prosecution indicated that it would inter alia tender two

17 video stills bearing 65 ter numbers 13430 and 13433, which were taken

18 from the Srebrenica trial video, non-associated exhibit number P1147.

19 The video stills show Rama Osmanovic, the deceased husband of the

20 witness. While the Prosecution played a sequence from the Srebrenica

21 trial video, it did not tender the video stills with the witness during

22 her testimony on the 16th of May. Can the Prosecution confirm the

23 withdrawal of both video stills with this particular witness?

24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'll check over the break and inform

25 the Chamber when we return.

Page 12476

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then the next item I'd like to briefly

2 deal with is the position of the Defence regarding to the diary of

3 Witness Mirko Trivic, that is P1467. Three weeks ago, it was on

4 23rd of May of this year, regarding this exhibit, the diary of the

5 witness of Mirko Trivic, the Prosecution identified 35 pages from it.

6 The Chamber reminded the Defence on the 29th of May that it was still

7 awaiting to hear if there were any additions or objections. The Defence

8 then said it would revisit the matter by the 30th of May but I think we

9 haven't heard since then.

10 MR. LUKIC: We do not anticipate adding any pages from that diary

11 and we do not object to have that diary included into the evidence as the

12 Prosecution proposed.

13 JUDGE ORIE: P1467 is admitted into evidence.

14 Next item is about submissions concerning demilitarisation

15 agreement. During the cross-examination of Witness Franken on the

16 7th of May, the Chamber asked the parties whether or not it was their

17 view that the demilitarised zone within Srebrenica was governed by

18 Article 60, paragraph 7, of the Additional Protocol I of the

19 Geneva Conventions. The Chamber also asked for the parties' positions

20 with regard to the validity of the demilitarisation agreement in 1995.

21 The parties indicated that they would discuss the matter and come back to

22 the Chamber, and the Chamber wonders whether the parties have any further

23 submissions to make on this subject.

24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I do recall that we did have a

25 discussion about that, and I have the view that I think given the

Page 12477

1 seriousness and the importance of the matter that probably merits written

2 submission, so the Chamber would give a schedule we would be willing to

3 provide written submissions on this.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I see Mr. Stojanovic nodding yes as well. Does this

5 mean that we can receive written submissions from the Defence?

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No need, Your Honours. We will,

7 of course, honour what Witness Franken said, his guidance. We will be

8 prepared to discuss with the Prosecution our -- what the position is as

9 soon as they are ready.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand from Mr. Groome that you had that

11 discussion already, or am I mistaken, Mr. Groome?

12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe Mr. McCloskey spoke with --

13 and then I in turn spoke with Mr. McCloskey. I did not personally have

14 any discussions with the Mladic Defence and if I'm incorrect about the

15 discussions Mr. McCloskey had, then I accept Mr. Stojanovic's

16 representation with respect to that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic?

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: We had two meetings with Mr. McCloskey where we

19 raised this issue, but we did not come to a joint position on the issue,

20 not yet.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber would like to receive within two

22 weeks from today written submissions on the matter.

23 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I briefly move to my next item. On the

25 29th of May, 2013, the Chamber inquired with the Defence whether it could

Page 12478

1 confirm that they do not intend to file a response to the Prosecution's

2 motion requesting admission of Mevludin Oric's evidence pursuant to

3 Rule 92 bis, a motion which was filed on the 8th of May of this year.

4 The Defence informed the Chamber that it would have to look into this and

5 was requested to come back to the Chamber at the earliest possibility.

6 Could I ask whether the Defence is able to provide the requested

7 information at this stage?

8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, we checked it and it is filed

9 correctly as agreed in between the Prosecution and the Defence.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You say it is filed correctly as agreed. What

11 exactly is filed?

12 MR. LUKIC: The 92 bis motion --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 MR. LUKIC: -- has included the statement from Mr. Oric, and

15 there was some issue of the contents of that statement, about the

16 redactions, and those redactions are correctly made and we do not object

17 to their inclusion.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the latter is because that's what the Chamber

19 was seeking that a confirmation that the Defence indeed did not intend to

20 respond. Apparently you also do not object against admission.

21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That is hereby on the record.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic, and no objection against 92 bis

25 means that you're not insisting on the witness to be called for the

Page 12481

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness. Please be seated. Witness, you

3 will first be examined by Mr. Traldi, Mr. Traldi is counsel for the

4 Prosecution. You'll find him to your right.

5 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

6 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Examination by Mr. Traldi:

8 Q. Good morning, sir. To start I'm going to ask that the

9 court officer call to our screens but not broadcast to the public a

10 pseudonym sheet bearing 65 ter 28943 which will have your name, your date

11 of birth and your pseudonym in this trial. Please don't read any of the

12 material on the sheet out loud but if it correctly reflects the

13 information that I mentioned just now, please affirm that by saying yes.

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that 65 ter 28943 be admitted

16 as the next confidential Prosecution exhibit.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic?

18 MR. IVETIC: No objection.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28943 receives number P1546,

21 Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: P1546 is admitted under seal.

23 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask that the court officer now call 65 ter 28942

24 to our screens and again not broadcast the document outside the

25 courtroom. Once it's on our screen if we could zoom in on the signature

Page 12482

1 on the bottom right side of the first page in English.

2 Q. Sir, do you recognise that signature on the line?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. And whose is it?

5 A. It is mine.

6 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask that the court officer call up page 11,

7 again not broadcast the page, and zoom in on the signature this time near

8 the top of the page.

9 Q. And do you recognise that signature, sir, above where it says the

10 date?

11 A. Yes, I do. It is my signature.

12 Q. Did you have a chance to review your statement in preparation for

13 your testimony here today?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that 65 ter 28986 be called to our

16 screens and also not be broadcast. And if we could go to page 2 in

17 28986, the B/C/S is on the left.

18 Q. Sir, did you have a chance to review this document in preparation

19 for your testimony today?

20 A. Yes. I did have a chance to take a look at it.

21 Q. And does it include corrections and clarifications which you made

22 to your statement in preparation for your testimony?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Subject to those corrections and clarifications, if I were to ask

25 you the same questions that you were asked when your statement was taken,

Page 12483

1 would you give the same answers in substance?

2 A. Yes. The same answers, and only those answers.

3 Q. Now that you've sworn to testify truthfully, do you affirm the

4 truthfulness and accuracy of your statement?

5 A. Yes. I affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of this statement.

6 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 28942, the statement,

7 and 28986, the chart, into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter as

8 confidential Prosecution exhibits.

9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, as to the 92 ter statement, as

10 proposed, we maintain our objections as set forth in our response to the

11 motion filed on 26 April 2013. The clarifications we have no additional

12 objection to the same.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: The objections against admission of this statement

15 are denied.

16 Madam Registrar, could you assign numbers?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28942 receives number P1547,

18 Your Honours and document 28986 receives number P1548, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Both are admitted into evidence, both under seal.

20 MR. TRALDI: And, Mr. President, I'll be using some of the

21 associated exhibits during the course of the testimony so I suggest we

22 postpone dealing with those. I seek leave now to provide a brief public

23 summary of the witness's evidence and I've explain the purpose of this

24 exercise to him.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Your proposal is accepted as far as the associated

Page 12484

1 exhibits are concerned and you may read a summary for the public.

2 MR. TRALDI: The witness is a survivor of the mass execution of

3 at least 1.000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys at Petkovci Dam charged at

4 scheduled incident E.7.2 of the indictment. On 11 July 1995, he and

5 thousands of other Muslims formed a column at Susnjari and attempted to

6 escape from Srebrenica to Bosnian held territory. The morning of 13 July

7 the witness and a large group of men were forced to surrender. They were

8 sent towards Konjevic Polje where soldiers took custody of them. From

9 there, they were taken to a football stadium at Kasaba. They arrived

10 around 2.00 p.m., around 2.000 men were already there. Shortly

11 thereafter, General Mladic arrived and spoke to the men. The witness was

12 then taken towards Kravica supermarket in a truck with 119 other men.

13 During the night, they were abused and some were killed. The witness

14 heard screams and bursts of gunfire.

15 The next day, the detainees were taken to a school. There, too,

16 they were abused and some were killed. That night, the detainees and

17 others held at the school were taken to a gravel area. Soldiers took

18 them out in groups and told them to fall down. When the witness fell,

19 soldiers began to fire but he was not hit. He passed out and when he

20 awoke there were other men on top of him. Another survivor spoke to him

21 and they escaped together. From a hiding place they could see the

22 execution site, a loading machine dumping bodies on to a tractor truck

23 and a dam with water behind it.

24 Your Honour, this completes the public summary of this witness's

25 evidence. I will now have a number of questions for the witness.

Page 12485

1 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.

2 MR. TRALDI:

3 Q. Sir, I want to start off with some information about you just for

4 clarity. Did you participate in the Territorial Defence?

5 A. Yes, I did, from the start, in other words from April 17, 1992,

6 up until the 16th of June 1992, I was wounded then by a shell fragment,

7 and then I left the TO.

8 Q. And did there come a time when you were remobilised?

9 A. Yes. We were remobilised on the 5th or 6th of July, again, when

10 the attack on Srebrenica began we all received orders, were mobilised, so

11 that I happened to be a member of the defence of Srebrenica when it fell.

12 Q. And just so the record is absolutely clear, were you mobilised

13 into the army at that time, sir?

14 A. Yes. I was mobilised into the army from the 5th or 6th of July,

15 I don't know the exact date, one of those two days anyway.

16 Q. Sir, with that matter addressed, I'd like to go straight to the

17 stadium at Nova Kasaba.

18 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that 65 ter 28091 be called to our

19 screens. This is an aerial view of the stadium which was used with the

20 witness in the Tolimir case.

21 Q. While that's coming up, sir, you say in paragraph 18 of your

22 statement, now Exhibit P1547, that there were armed Serb soldiers at the

23 stadium when you arrived. Do you recall about how many soldiers were at

24 the stadium?

25 A. Well, I cannot remember exactly the number at the stadium itself

Page 12486

1 but I can confirm that a group of about ten of them were at the

2 approaches, at the gate, which I marked with an S there. This is the

3 gate which would allow you to enter the pitch, the football pitch or the

4 stadium. And on the stadium itself I can't really tell you the exact

5 number but there were many of them. They were all around us so there was

6 a lot of -- a strong security detail.

7 Q. And, sir, you mentioned the letters S on the picture. What do

8 the Xs on the field represent?

9 A. The Xs represent people, our men, who had been captured, the men

10 who had headed towards Tuzla. We were captured and held there at the

11 stadium.

12 Q. And you describe in P1547 General Mladic arriving and addressing

13 your group. About how far away from him were you while he was speaking?

14 A. When I first saw him, I can confirm to you that I was at the

15 place which I marked with a Y, about there, so I was at the very end of

16 the stadium viewed from the Konjevic Polje direction. He appeared on the

17 left-hand side, to the left of us, I can show it here on the screen. He

18 was some ten metres or so away from me. He passed through there. And

19 that was the first time that I saw him. In other words, he came from

20 behind us and he walked towards the field in the direction of

21 Nova Kasaba. If you can see that white area on the image, I think those

22 were the bleachers, but I can mark it here, if you like.

23 Q. If that would benefit the Chamber, then, yes, please mark where

24 General Mladic was.

25 A. Yes. So he moved in this direction, and he stood in front of us,

Page 12487

1 about here. I will put a -- perhaps I can mark this with a letter?

2 Q. Perhaps a letter M, sir.

3 A. M, then.

4 Q. Now, I'd ask you to put the pen down. Did you notice anything

5 happening outside the stadium while General Mladic was speaking?

6 A. We could see the road and buses moving along that road, buses and

7 trucks, loaded with men -- women and children. They were being taken

8 towards Kladanj. Now, at the stadium itself, it was totally quiet.

9 Nobody was saying anything so we were all seated, we were sitting on the

10 ground, and it was total silence.

11 Q. Sir, could you tell if General Mladic also noticed those buses?

12 A. Yes. He certainly would have noticed them, and he did mention

13 it; in fact, he said that their buses were transporting the women and

14 children and that we too would be reunited with them at some later point.

15 First he criticised us and then he addressed us to this effect.

16 Q. And that matter is addressed in your statement, sir. In

17 paragraph 21 of that statement -- you say that as you were taken out of

18 the stadium a soldier told some people, "You won't need your bags any

19 more." Did you hear this yourself?

20 A. Yes. I heard it myself. There was a man before me who asked for

21 his bag, he wanted to take it, but this soldier from among the group of

22 ten that I mentioned earlier who were at the gate, they were armed, he

23 told him, "As if you will need that bag again."

24 Q. And what did you take from that, sir?

25 A. I realised at that point that we were going to be taken somewhere

Page 12488

1 to be executed and that our chances of survival were small.

2 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 28091 as now marked by

3 the witness as the next public Prosecution exhibit.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic?

5 MR. IVETIC: No objection.

6 JUDGE ORIE: 65 ter 28091, an aerial photograph already marked by

7 the witness but now additionally marked by the witness would receive,

8 Madam Registrar, number?

9 THE REGISTRAR: Number P1549, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: P1549 is admitted into evidence.

11 Do we need to have it under seal, Mr. Traldi?

12 MR. TRALDI: I don't believe there is anything on it that

13 identifies the witness, no, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps as a guidance for next time, if we do a

15 second round of markings, perhaps he could use a different colour, so

16 that it's clear what is newly marked. What was newly marked here was a

17 line heading to one of the goals in the upper part of the photograph and

18 the addition of the letter M to that, whereas the Ss and the Xs and the

19 position where the witness said he was were already marked on this

20 photograph from before.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour.

23 Q. Witness, from the stadium, you describe being taken towards

24 Kravica supermarket. In paragraphs 22 and 23 of P1547, you describe Serb

25 soldiers who were present at the supermarket. Did you see any of them

Page 12489

1 wearing uniforms?

2 A. Yes. They were all wearing uniforms, and they were all armed.

3 Q. And what could you see about the uniforms, what kind were they?

4 A. It was already getting dark. We were on the truck. We were

5 exhausted. I believe that they had camouflage uniforms on.

6 Q. You mentioned some of those soldiers were telling people, telling

7 detainees, to be quiet. Can you describe how they did that?

8 A. Yes. They first read out names of people from some places,

9 probably people they knew, and then if somebody asked for water or

10 something, because people were beginning to pass out on these trucks, it

11 was really hot, the temperature was very high, people were without water,

12 they were passing out, and if there was a cry from someone on the truck,

13 they would come and hit them with a rifle butts or they would point their

14 rifle at the men who were closest to the exit from the truck. I was

15 present when one of these men put a rifle barrel in one of these men's

16 mouth, threatening him, so that if others were to make any sounds on the

17 bus, on the truck, they would shoot him. So there was peace after that,

18 silence. There was a lot of fear and panic.

19 Q. And just for the clarity of the record, sir, when you say one of

20 these men put a rifle barrel in one of these men's mouth, was that a

21 soldier putting a rifle in a detainee's mouth?

22 A. Yes, a soldier who was there, he was circling around the truck.

23 He put the rifle barrel into the mouth of one of these detainees,

24 threatening to shoot him there on the truck. And it was difficult to

25 maintain order. People were already going mad. There was panic. It was

Page 12490

1 really hot, the whole day, plus this truck had a tarpaulin so we were all

2 underneath and it was really hot and I saw myself when people -- there

3 were 100 men on this truck.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to ask that the court officer please call

6 up 65 ter 28093, another aerial image.

7 Q. And, sir, I won't be asking you to mark this one. Sir, do you

8 recognise the area shown in this image?

9 A. Yes. I recognise it very well. This is the school building in

10 Petkovci, the elementary school building in Petkovci that we mentioned

11 earlier. I can explain, if you wish. The arrow, if you look up, is the

12 spot where the trucks were parked, the trucks that had brought us there,

13 and that's where we got off the trucks. They lined -- they made a line

14 and we had to run a gauntlet here literally between them and we had to

15 shout out, "Srebrenica is Serbian and long live Srebrenica." We had to

16 keep our hands behind our heads. Everyone would then receive a blow on

17 their backs or arms or somewhere, so we had to run towards the school.

18 There were three steps there. It's on the other side of the school. And

19 we would enter the school building and we would be on the ground floor.

20 Q. And is the school building also marked on the image?

21 A. Yes. It is marked with an S.

22 Q. You mentioned that they lined up and they made you shout. Who

23 were "they"?

24 A. Serbian soldiers who were armed and who probably were security

25 for this school.

Page 12491

1 Q. And could you see whether they were wearing uniforms?

2 A. Yes. They were all wearing uniforms.

3 Q. Could you see what kind?

4 A. Well, as I've already said, they had camouflage uniforms on. At

5 that point in time, I couldn't really see whether they were light or dark

6 coloured but I know that they all had uniforms on.

7 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours I'd ask that 65 ter 28094 be called to

8 our screens and that 65 ter 28093, this exhibit, be admitted as the next

9 public Prosecution exhibit.

10 MR. IVETIC: No objection.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28093 receives number P1550,

13 Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: P1550 is admitted into evidence.

15 MR. TRALDI:

16 Q. And do you recognise the area in this photograph, sir?

17 A. Yes. Very well. This is very familiar to me. So this is the

18 school building I was referring to. The first arrow indicates the

19 entranceway to the staircase, and then you have the first landing to the

20 right and then another landing where you turn to the left, and now you're

21 on the first floor, whereas previously you were on the ground floor. So

22 immediately to the right as we were on the first floor, you have

23 classrooms, 1, 2 and 3, and they are marked as such. So I was first put

24 up in classroom number 3.

25 Q. Sir, I'm sorry to interrupt and to have dropped my pen, but I'd

Page 12492

1 like to move on past that. In paragraph 33 of P1547 you mentioned that

2 later that night, a soldier came in and told you to prepare for your

3 money, jewellery and identification documents to be taken. Were those

4 things eventually taken from you?

5 A. Yes. Every five or ten minutes or so they would barge into the

6 classroom, they would be in two or in -- or, rather, they would ask for

7 two or four people to come out, as they saw fit, and as we got out into

8 the corridor we were told to give over everything that we had, so of

9 course we didn't have any money on us because that had been taken off us

10 earlier but they wanted documents, anything else that we still had on our

11 persons.

12 Q. And the place where that happened, is that marked on the

13 photograph?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. [Microphone not activated]

16 A. The small dots or Xs that you see there mark that spot.

17 Q. And is that in the -- on the lower left side of the photograph?

18 I'm not going to ask you to mark anything new, just to refer to where

19 that marking is.

20 A. Yes. Yes. That's the lower left-hand corner. The dots that

21 I drew that mark the spot. So there was this group of five to six Serb

22 soldiers who tied us up and took our documents away.

23 Q. You mentioned that you were tied up. Could you -- you said in

24 your statement that it was your hands that were tied, could you move

25 those -- could you move your hands at all?

Page 12493

1 A. No. My hands were tied behind my back and in such a way that

2 I couldn't flex my fingers at all, and I still have problems with my

3 right-hand to this day which goes numb very frequently. I was tied up

4 for at least four to five hours and my blood circulation stopped.

5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 28094 as a public

6 exhibit.

7 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28094 receives number P1551,

10 Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

12 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I would ask that page 2 of 65 ter 04997

13 be called to our screens.

14 Q. Before we leave the school, sir, and while that document comes

15 up, I'm going to ask you about some specific people. Did you see

16 Ramo Fejzic at the school?

17 A. Yes. I saw him with my own eyes in that classroom. He was

18 seated right next to me.

19 Q. Did you see Fuad Pilav at the school?

20 A. Yes. I saw him, too, in the school building, in that other

21 classroom. He was there together with his father. They were tied up and

22 I saw them when they held me against them in classroom number 2 as I've

23 mentioned a moment ago.

24 Q. And did you see Razim Buhic at the school?

25 A. Yes. I saw him as soon as they were putting us into the

Page 12494

1 classroom when my group got off the truck. We were among the first to

2 enter the classroom, which was empty by then. That was when I saw Razim

3 Buhic and another person, and I did see that in the statement. They were

4 lying down and at first I thought that they were dead, they were all

5 beaten up and bloody. I saw Razim Buhic -- I knew Razim Buhic

6 personally. In fact, he's even a distant relative of mine.

7 Q. Did you ever see any of those people alive again?

8 A. No, never. They were eventually recovered in graves and

9 identified.

10 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I won't ask further questions about

11 the events on the school in reliance on adjudicated facts 1579 through

12 1581.

13 Q. Now, sir, looking at the image on our screen -- and if we could

14 have page 2, please --

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is page 2.

16 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, page 1. My notes are in error.

17 Q. Sir, do you recognise the area we see here?

18 A. Yes. Very much so. That's the dam and the plateau beneath the

19 dam where we were being executed.

20 Q. And do you see the area here where you and other men were told to

21 lie down? If you do, if you could just describe for the Judges where it

22 is.

23 A. I think it was somewhere here. Should I use a pen or should

24 I just describe it?

25 Q. If you could describe it, that would be best.

Page 12495

1 A. We were transported here along this macadam road which ends at

2 this plateau. We stopped roughly where you see these individuals here.

3 They were filling up the area. So it was already full and I was perhaps

4 somewhere halfway down this plateau. And as we were pulling out,

5 I remember still this pile of rocks and stones. This is something that

6 I remember clearly. On the following morning, when we were pulling out

7 across the woods here, I was still able to see this heap of stones, and

8 this is some sort of landmark that remains clearly etched in my memory.

9 When I revisited the area with investigators, I saw the heap of rocks

10 again and a great deal of cases so this is where we were on this plateau.

11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours I'd ask that this page of 65 ter 04997

12 be admitted as the next public Prosecution exhibit.

13 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, if you only want to tender this one page

17 you have to upload it as a separate document.

18 MR. TRALDI: We will do that, Your Honour. Ms. Stewart just

19 informed me of the same thing. It will be at that time 4997A.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Could I ask one

21 question? You said you saw cases. Did you mean to refer to what kind of

22 cases?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Casings coming from automatic

24 rifles.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

Page 12497

1 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

3 MR. TRALDI:

4 Q. This sketch, sir, says on it, I believe, night view. How could

5 you see what was happening?

6 A. We were able to see because at the end up there we had two large

7 headlights or flood lights. There were two posts with flood lights

8 spreading light wide around.

9 Q. And to the right of the stick figures, we can see a large arrow.

10 What does that represent?

11 A. I don't understand, to the right of the stick figures?

12 Q. Where you've drawn people, sir, to the right of the people we can

13 see an arrow. And can you just explain to Their Honours what the arrow

14 represents?

15 A. Now I understand. I apologise. The arrow here indicates the

16 route along which we pulled out of the area. This other fellow that

17 I mentioned, when he came to me, he then led me across the stick figures,

18 meaning people that we had to walk over, and as we got out to the right,

19 there is some sort of brush wood there, a low hedge, and as we crossed

20 that we reached a canal into which we descended.

21 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 28899 into evidence

22 and ask that it be pleased under seal.

23 MR. IVETIC: No objection.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28899 receives number P1553,

Page 12498

1 Your Honours under seal.

2 JUDGE ORIE: P1550 ...

3 THE REGISTRAR: 53, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: 53 is admitted into evidence under seal.

5 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask that 65 ter 28897 be called to our screen.

6 It should also not be broadcast.

7 Q. This is labelled day view, sir. I want to ask you about two

8 specific things you've identified on the sketch. First, there is a canal

9 on the upper left-hand side. Is that the canal you were mentioning a

10 moment ago?

11 A. Yes. That's the canal.

12 Q. And there appear to be two vehicles in the centre of our sketch,

13 just to the left of where we see the people. What were those doing when

14 you saw them?

15 A. Yes. These vehicles arrived at the point when we were pulling

16 out and starting to escape. This is the tractor that was transporting

17 bodies, and this is the loader, the earth-moving machinery, you know.

18 The loader collected the bodies and loaded them on to the truck, and the

19 truck then drove them away in the direction of the dam.

20 Q. Did you recognise the type of loader that was?

21 A. Yes, I did. It was the ULT 160 earth-moving machinery. We used

22 to have that sort of machinery in the mines, and it was orange in colour.

23 Q. So were you familiar with that type of machine previously?

24 A. Yes. I was familiar with it from before. And it seems to me

25 that I still hear the hydraulics, you know, of the machine as it was

Page 12499

1 scooping the bodies just like it would scoop the earth.

2 Q. How long were you able to watch those two vehicles working?

3 A. It was sometime early in the morning, at dawn, that we were able

4 to pull out into the area where it says, the forest or the woods, and we

5 spent the whole day there. It's some 200 or 300 metres away as the crow

6 flies, and the whole day we were able to observe the machine working,

7 scooping the bodies, offloading them on to the truck and then the truck

8 would leave. And some 15 or 20 minutes later, it would come back and do

9 the same thing again. And it went on for the whole day. And then as it

10 became darker, there was an asphalt road behind the canal, we had to move

11 away but the machine stayed behind. So we were able to observe them

12 working the whole day.

13 Q. And is it right then that the machines were still working when

14 you pulled out on the asphalt road after dark?

15 A. Yes, that's correct. They were still at work.

16 Q. Still loading bodies?

17 A. Yes. Loading the corpses, those people.

18 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender this document as the next

19 Prosecution exhibit and request that it be placed under seal.

20 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28897 receives number P1554 under seal,

23 Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: P1554 is admitted under seal.

25 MR. TRALDI: Regarding the witness's testimony about the loader

Page 12500

1 I'd refer Your Honours to 65 ter 4277 page 15. That document has been

2 tendered in our 12th Rule 92 bis motion. As it's a lengthy document and

3 the witness only speaks to one page, I won't re-tender the document at

4 this time.

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 A. The only thing I know is that he was identified. I think he was

8 recovered in the grave at Glogova. When we were taken prisoner,

9 I carried him all the way to Sandici and we handed him over to the Serb

10 soldiers who were waiting for us along the road. They said that they

11 would take care of the wounded. We formed a line to Konjevic Polje.

12 I never heard of him again and it was only, I think, in 2007 that he was

13 identified.

14 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd request that line 7 and 8 be

15 redacted. I apologise for the inconvenience.

16 JUDGE ORIE: A redaction has already been ordered. I also inform

17 anyone who is in the public audience not to reveal that name which was

18 mentioned a while ago as being the nephew of this witness. They are

19 under an order not to reveal that name.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. TRALDI:

22 Q. All told, sir, and without referring to your family name,

23 approximately how many of your relatives were in the column of men and

24 were never seen again?

25 A. At least 20 of my closest relatives, brothers, cousins,

Page 12515

1 the next page so that you get the translation and then I'll have some

2 questions for you. So please follow along:

3 "Q. Before the creation of the UN safe area of Srebrenica, were

4 you a member of the Territorial Defence?

5 "A. Yes.

6 "Q. Were you wounded?

7 "A. I was wounded on the 16th of June, 1992. By orders of the

8 army command or, rather, the Territorial Defence, I was appointed to

9 working on the collection of humanitarian aid in the local community.

10 "Q. So following your injury you were released from the

11 Territorial Defence?"

12 If we can go to the next page:

13 "A. Yes.

14 "Q. At the time of the fall of the enclave in July of 1995, were

15 you a member of the Bosnian Muslim army?

16 "A. I was not."

17 Now, sir, how do you account for the fact that in the Krstic

18 trial you testified that you were not a member of the Bosnian Muslim army

19 when the enclave fell in July of 1995 and today you appear to have

20 testified that, in fact, you were a member of the Bosnian Muslim army at

21 that time? How do you account for that inconsistency?

22 A. I don't know. I may have said that, but what I do know is that

23 I was mobilised again on the 5th or the 6th of July. That's to say when

24 the attack on Srebrenica commenced. And I was there all the way until

25 the 11th when we were captured. And I resumed my service at a later

Page 12516

1 date. I don't know how I came to say this.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.

3 Now, at the time that you were remobilised, whether it was the

4 5th or 6th of July, 1995, were you at that time mobilised into the

5 281st Brigade of the Army of BiH?

6 A. I do believe that that was how the formation was, and there was

7 chaos, there was no time to discuss these issues. Simply all of the

8 able-bodied population had to be activated and engaged in the exercise of

9 protecting the population, digging up the lines, and so on. Over the

10 course of these five or six days, there was unspeakable chaos, but

11 I think that it was the 281st, yes.

12 Q. Sir, I have to ask a follow-up question just to make sure that

13 I'm understanding your testimony. Is it your testimony that not only you

14 but every able-bodied male was, on 5 or 6 July 1995, activated and

15 mobilised into the armed forces, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16 A. Yes. Simply mobilisation was organised so that everybody, all

17 able-bodied men, could be engaged in digging up trenches, bringing

18 supplies to the lines, protecting the population. There were shells

19 landing from all quarters, and I repeat, one simply didn't know where to

20 go and what to do first over the course of these days.

21 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I'd like to move to Susnjari, and in your

22 92 ter statement which is P1547, at the second page in both languages,

23 you state that military-aged men and men who could walk were ordered to

24 go to Susnjari, and you believed that the order came from the Bosnian

25 civilian authorities in Srebrenica. First off, I want to ask you to

Page 12517

1 confirm if, in fact, it was also part of that same order that the women

2 and children were to go to Potocari with the aim of leaving Srebrenica

3 enclave?

4 A. I believe that that was the case. I cannot confirm that there

5 was any order for the women and children or who issued it. I think that

6 it was the civilian authorities who said that men should head to Susnjari

7 and women and children to the UNPROFOR base because they hoped that they

8 would find some sort of salvation there.

9 Q. Whoever issued that order, when would it have been communicated,

10 do you know?

11 A. I don't know when it was issued or when it was communicated.

12 I think that on the 11th of July, the entire population set off when the

13 Serb forces entered the town proper, the town of Srebrenica. I was close

14 by because we were digging up trenches above one of the villages, and the

15 whole morning of the 11th of July we were able to see the Serb tanks

16 attacking from a place called Bojna. They were targeting Srebrenica.

17 Early in the morning, as they went down hill, they immediately set some

18 of the houses on the edge of Srebrenica on fire. Simply, news spread

19 that the Serb army had captured Srebrenica and the people were leaving.

20 We left in the evening.

21 Q. Okay, sir. Now, also, here you talk about at Susnjari, you talk

22 of the column of men and how it was decided that all the men would walk

23 in a column due to the fear of land mines. Now I'd like to ask you: Am

24 I correct that, in fact, you were ordered to fall in at Susnjari

25 according to your assignments in the Armija BiH brigades?

Page 12518

1 A. Well, of course, column was formed from Susnjari. We had to go

2 in file in order to more easily make our way through the Serbian lines,

3 and the column was perhaps some ten kilometres long.

4 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to call up 1D1031 again. This is the

5 statement from 19 July 1995, and if we can have page 2 in both languages.

6 Q. And I'd like to read a portion of that to you, sir, and then ask

7 you some questions about the same. And the part I want to read is as

8 follows in the English: Do we have the -- I apologise, should be page 3

9 in the B/C/S.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please for the record repeat the

11 document number?

12 MR. IVETIC: 1D1031.

13 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to read for you as follows:

14 "There was a total of between 12.000 and 13.000 of us men, all

15 able-bodied, and there were also some women with us. But I don't know

16 who led us and who was the leader of the column. In the village of

17 Susnjari, we fell in according to our brigades. I was in our

18 281st Brigade, which then had 1.000 soldiers and 500 civilians, if not

19 more. After my brigade had been lined up we joined the other brigades

20 and moved in single file for fear that there might be minefields. We

21 then set off towards Buljim which was held by the Chetniks. There, the

22 Chetniks began to shell us and fire at us from all directions using Praga

23 self-propelled anti-aircraft guns. We began to move in the direction of

24 Siljkovci and Kamenica, Pobudje, crawling and in other ways. During the

25 Chetnik shelling and use of other weapons, a large number of people were

Page 12519

1 killed on the spot and many were wounded".

2 Sir, do you stand by this part that I have read out from your

3 prior statement as truthfully and accurately stating the facts relative

4 to this incident?

5 A. Yes, it's truthful.

6 Q. Okay. Now, at the time that the column set out, according to

7 brigades, and went towards an area that was held by the Serbs, what was

8 your understanding of the military orders of that column?

9 A. I wasn't to -- I wasn't able to hear any orders. Nobody could

10 address such a multitude of people. I did say that we fell in according

11 to our brigades. What I meant was that we grouped according to the

12 brigades, as far as we were able to. But as we moved in single file,

13 nobody was able to keep track of others anymore. Everybody was fending

14 for themselves, as soon as gunfire and shelling started. I wasn't able

15 to hear any sort of orders.

16 Q. Let me see if I can understand correctly, sir. Am I correct that

17 your brigade was located somewhere towards the front of the column?

18 A. Yes, I think that's correct.

19 Q. And now I believe that you've testified that while approximately

20 one-third of the column was armed, am I correct that a majority of the

21 persons from the column that were armed were also at the front of the

22 column spearheading the attempted breakthrough through Serb lines?

23 A. In my estimate, one-third of the people who were there, some

24 14.000 or 15.000, were armed.

25 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, allow me to repeat my question. Am I

Page 12520

1 correct that a majority of those persons from the column that were armed

2 were at the front of the column spearheading the attempted breakthrough

3 through Serb lines?

4 A. I cannot confirm that because I don't know. I wasn't able to see

5 who was heading the column. As we were making our way, we lost track of

6 one another. So I can't say where people with weapons were.

7 Q. Now, you have identified in this statement from 19 July 1995,

8 that a large number of persons were killed on the spot from artillery,

9 including anti-aircraft artillery that was shooting upon you. During

10 that time was there also counter-fire coming from the Bosnian Muslim

11 column members who were armed?

12 A. No. The route that I'm mentioning from a place called Jaglici to

13 the Kamenica hill where that big ambush was staged, along this stretch

14 I never heard any counter-fire coming from the column. Perhaps further

15 ahead, yes, but where I was, I didn't hear it. We were constantly under

16 fire from the Serbian forces at Kravica. Shells were constantly landing

17 in the woods.

18 Q. So we can have some idea of exactly where you were located in

19 relation to the column, do you believe if the front of the column were

20 firing at the Serbs, would you be in a position to see or hear it or not?

21 A. No. I wasn't close by. I don't know who was heading first or

22 how far that was, but I also didn't hear any fire coming from our people.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, in addition to this ambush or attack where

24 a large number of persons were killed, am I correct that there were a

25 subsequent number of attacks that occurred on your path in the direction

Page 12521

1 to Siljkovci and Kasaba, again in which a large number of persons from

2 the column were killed?

3 A. Do you mean the attacks from or by the Serbian army?

4 Q. Yes, the incoming fire from the Serbian army.

5 A. Yes. As I said, the attacks were relentless, lasting throughout

6 the day from the morning of the 12th when we set off from Jaglici

7 throughout the 13th, the Praga was firing. There was fire from other

8 weapons, shells relentlessly following us on our way and falling on the

9 forest.

10 Q. Now, am I correct that all of these events that we have been

11 talking about now, and all of the various casualties that you describe,

12 occurred prior to 12 July 1995?

13 A. No, you're not right. All this happened from the morning of the

14 12th, roughly 5.00 a.m., when we started crossing the Serbian line at

15 Buljim, until - and I'm speaking for myself - the 13th, in the morning,

16 when we were captured. So the whole day, the 12th and in the evening.

17 I'm referring to the path from Buljim to Sandici where I was taken

18 prisoner, all the way along that path through the forest.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, on this same page, at the bottom of the

20 page in the English, and going on to the next page, you say as follows:

21 "Since it was dark and we didn't know where we were, we tried to

22 make it through to Kasaba several times but failed. On 12 July 1995, in

23 the morning hours, the Chetniks again began shelling using all weapons.

24 The wood where there was a large number of our wounded and dead soldiers

25 and civilians, I don't know the exact number."

Page 12522

1 First of all, sir, is this part of your statement that I read out

2 truthful and accurate such that you would stand by the same and testify

3 again if asked about these events?

4 A. No. This is a mistake. Not the 12th of July but the 13th of

5 July. The 12th, that was a Wednesday, we spent the whole day travelling

6 from Buljim to Sekovici, that you were mentioning in connection with

7 Nova Kasaba. That was the shelling. And then of course if I think back

8 to the 12th in the evening. It was on the 13th, on Thursday, that it

9 happened. I can see the 12th here. Maybe it was their mistake when they

10 were writing it down.

11 Q. Fair enough, sir. Apart from the correction of the date, is the

12 remainder of what I have read from this section truthful and accurate

13 such that you would so testify again today, subject to the solemn

14 declaration, if asked about these same events?

15 A. Yes, I'd say so. There was a large number of wounded and dead

16 lying in that brook.

17 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, if we could return to your Rule 92 ter

18 statement, P1547, at page 3 in the English, it's the second paragraph

19 from the bottom, and in B/C/S, it's page 3 but the third paragraph from

20 the bottom. And while we wait for that, sir, I can perhaps tell you what

21 I believe it says and what my request for clarification is.

22 In that portion of your 92 ter statement you talk about the fact

23 that you tried many roads but were ambushed and that you heard that many

24 people were killed in the river area but did not see this. Now, first,

25 I would like to be clear that the persons that are described in this

Page 12523

1 paragraph of your 92 ter statement that would have been killed in the

2 river area we are still talking about casualties from the fighting and

3 shooting coming from the Serb forces?

4 A. I didn't understand you properly. Can you explain and put a

5 brief question?

6 Q. Yes, sir. If you could look at paragraph number 10 of the

7 statement?

8 [Defence counsel and Accused confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: If the microphone is --

10 MR. IVETIC:

11 Q. At paragraph 10 of your statement, sir, in both languages as it's

12 marked, you say that, "I heard many people were killed in the river area

13 but I did not see this."

14 And my question for you is to clarify that the persons that you

15 would have heard of being killed in the river area as in your statement

16 relates to casualties from the fighting, the shooting, that was being

17 directed at the column of men?

18 A. There was no fighting when it comes to our own army. They did

19 not engage in combat. All the people that I saw lying in that stream

20 were killed by shells or snipers and the Praga that was firing from

21 Kravica.

22 Q. Sir, now I'm confused. Earlier you testified that you were not

23 close enough to the front of the column so as to see or hear whether they

24 were shooting, now you're saying that no one from your army engaged in

25 any fighting. How can you account for those inconsistencies?

Page 12524

1 A. Well, I'm talking about my group, the group of people I was in.

2 And that place. I could see people from the columns -- from the column

3 who lay dead there in that stream, or who had been seriously wounded. So

4 the fire was on the Serb part throughout that time. As for the forward

5 end of the column, I never mentioned that, nor do I know what was

6 happening there.

7 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Am I also correct in addition

8 to the river area, there were a lot of bodies of persons killed from the

9 shelling that were along the roadways and that those bodies were just

10 left there?

11 A. Yes. At first, we began pulling out, and I'm talking about the

12 12th, to the --

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what hill.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We pulled out some 30 wounded or so

15 to a plateau, and there was a major ambush there. Now, what happened to

16 those wounded men, afterwards, I never learned, but the others were left

17 behind.

18 MR. IVETIC:

19 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I'd like to move back to your statement that

20 we have on the screen and I believe it's paragraph 12 of the same which

21 is the next page in English and it's the last two lines in B/C/S on the

22 page that we have now. If we could scroll down to that. And here, sir,

23 you are talking about people panicking because there was no way out, and

24 that people started committing suicide. And you say that you saw at

25 least 20 persons with your own eyes who committed suicide and every 4 to

Page 12525

1 5 metres there was another body. Now I would like to clarify with you,

2 sir, at this point would you agree with me that the people in the column

3 had been broken up into smaller groups, each group going their own

4 direction?

5 A. Yes. I agree the groups had been broken up, but there were

6 attempts to get out on the roads, so my group remained cut off in that

7 section. We were cut off from the main column.

8 Q. And in relation to these 20 persons that you with your own eyes

9 saw commit suicide, would it be accurate to state that these 20 persons

10 were all from or comprising a part of your group that had broken off from

11 the column which was 100 persons in total?

12 A. No. I could not say that. I can't say that these people were

13 from my group. The truth is they were in the column but I can also not

14 confirm that there were 100 men in that column. There were 100 people

15 down below where we surrendered but as from what I could see there were

16 some 20 people or so, I didn't really count them, who lay dead. But how

17 they died, I can't really guarantee, vouchsafe for, but I did see one or

18 two men commit suicide but that these 20 men committed suicide, I can't

19 really confirm that. I did see 20 men lying dead in that stream.

20 Q. Thank you. In terms of those that you actually saw yourselves,

21 am I correct that you saw persons shoot their own relatives or that

22 relatives shot each other?

23 A. Yes. I did say that. I did see one such case.

24 Q. At this time, was there also a dispute and in-fighting amongst

25 the persons that were part of the column between those that wanted to

Page 12526

1 surrender and those that wanted to fight onward and continue to try to

2 break through the Serb lines?

3 A. Well, there may have been some differences amongst them, but

4 believe me I couldn't really hear very much. There was a relative of

5 mine who was seriously wounded and I was trying to save him. So the only

6 option left for us was to surrender and when we heard the Serbs calling

7 out on a bull horn to surrender we decided to do it, and we saw an end --

8 a portion of the column that were moving -- we saw people moving forward

9 and they had a blue UN flag. We also -- so we believed that we would

10 actually manage to get to the -- and be taken to the UNPROFOR soldiers.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could you find a suitable moment within

12 the next two or three minutes for a break?

13 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

14 Q. For those that decided to surrender, were there persons who had

15 been previously wearing military uniforms, who discarded their military

16 uniforms and changed into civilian clothing prior to surrendering?

17 A. No. I didn't see any such persons there. I didn't see anyone

18 changing uniform there. It's possible that there were such cases among

19 those who had surrendered earlier, but where I was, I didn't see --

20 I couldn't see anyone like that. We were all in civilian clothes.

21 Q. Where you were, did anyone discard weapons before surrendering?

22 A. No. I didn't see that either.

23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, we are at a suitable point for the

24 break.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Can we first move into closed session so that the

Page 12528

1 group. What I wanted to say was that when we surrendered to these Serb

2 soldiers, mistreatment and beatings started right away. Many were beaten

3 up already at the spot. We were immediately ordered to surrender all the

4 items we had. We were searched. And this group of soldiers who were

5 there on the road by Sandici took away everything that we had. If we had

6 any gold, jewellery, rings, we had to hand everything over to them.

7 There were several wounded persons by the road side, and there was my

8 relative. We stayed close to them. So the mistreatment and blows

9 started right there.

10 Q. Is it correct, sir, that these persons also took away weapons

11 that members of that group of 100 to 150 persons that you were with had

12 on their person?

13 A. I didn't even see anybody carry any weapons to the spot where the

14 Serbian soldiers were. Mostly those who surrendered there were unarmed.

15 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to call up 1D1031 again, and again as with

16 all the others we should not broadcast. And if we can turn to page 3 in

17 the English, and page 2 in the B/C/S, I think it might be 3 in the B/C/S

18 since they are double-sided. That's fine. That's the page.

19 Q. Sir, here in relation -- waiting for the English -- in relation

20 to the surrender, here is what you said on 19 July 1995:

21 "After a while the Chetniks began to call on us through

22 megaphones to surrender, alleging that they would not hurt us and would

23 transport us with our families to Kladanj and Tuzla. Then a large number

24 of us set off walking in file towards them in the village of Mandici

25 where we surrendered. Then they searched us, took away all the weapons

Page 12529

1 we had, money, documents and everything else."

2 Does that refresh your recollection, sir, as to whether members

3 of that group that you surrendered with were armed and those arms were

4 taken away by the Serb forces searching you?

5 A. Well, yes. What is probably meant here is - and I'm speaking for

6 myself - I had a pistol with me which was a licensed pistol. I had it

7 and got it perhaps 15 years before the war, and it was that pistol that I

8 had on me and I handed it over to the Serb soldier. So perhaps it was

9 along those lines that I gave this statement. There may have been others

10 who did the same but that I saw someone hand over a rifle, no, I didn't.

11 What was in question here was this pistol. So what I was saying here was

12 that I, myself, handed over my pistol to them. And I repeat, it was a

13 licensed pistol.

14 Q. With relation to the transfer of yourself and others to the

15 football pitch at Kasaba, first of all, am I correct that prior to going

16 to the football pitch at Kasaba you were kept in some rooms at a school

17 in Konjevic Polje?

18 A. Yes. We were held in some rooms, not of a school building, it

19 was a building which was being built before the war and was to become a

20 marketplace, but what you have today is just the walls and concrete slab.

21 So this was the group of us who came from Sandici and there were two

22 other rooms full of people there. So it wasn't a school building. It

23 was just a structure that was in the process of being built at the time,

24 and it still stands like that today.

25 Q. Is it correct that while you were at this structure you were

Page 12530

1 provided water, kept for about an hour before being transported to the

2 football pitch at Kasaba? I note that my microphone apparently was out.

3 I would like to repeat the question, then.

4 Sir, is it correct that you were kept at that structure, that

5 location, for about an hour, you were provided water and then you were

6 transferred to the football pitch at Kasaba?

7 A. I don't know exactly if it was just one hour. At any rate, we

8 were held in that room. There was sweltering heat. The temperature was

9 about 40 degrees, it was between mid-day and 1.00 p.m. Somebody brought

10 over some water from a nearby river, I believe, in pails, you know the

11 sort of pails that you would use to water plants. And it was for this

12 group of us there of 100-odd persons, and we were supposed to drink that

13 water from the pail and there would be dozens of us flocking to the pail

14 to at least get our mouth wet.

15 Q. Now, at the football pitch in your testimony you have estimated a

16 number of persons you believe were present, can you please tell me how

17 you arrive at this estimate; that is, what is the basis for your estimate

18 of the number of persons that were present at the football pitch in

19 Kasaba?

20 A. In my free estimate, picture a football pitch and its carrying

21 capacity. At least 1.500 to 2.000 people can fit in a football pitch if

22 seated. That was how I arrived at the number, and the pitch was full.

23 Q. Now, in your Rule 92 per statement which is P1547, at page 5 in

24 both languages, in the middle of the page, you discuss a speech by

25 General Mladic. First I want to have you describe for us where this

Page 12531

1 stage was located. Was it on the pitch itself or was it on the roadway?

2 A. It was taken place in the pitch itself. When he came to us, when

3 he approached us and we were seated on the ground, that was after the

4 Serb soldiers escorted us through the gate and on to the pitch, and made

5 us sit down, that was when he addressed us and it was all happening on

6 the football pitch.

7 Q. What material did the stage appear to be made of and how -- what

8 were its dimensions?

9 A. I said that I didn't remember, and I stand by it. Was it a stage

10 or was it some sort of elevation that was there from before, the only

11 thing I know is that he was standing on high ground. He was overlooking

12 us. And everybody was able to see him. Now, was it a stage? I don't

13 know. At any rate, it was at one end and I did mark it on that sketch.

14 Q. Now, how long did General Mladic stay there and address the

15 persons assembled at the soccer -- at the football pitch?

16 A. Well, he didn't stay very long. As soon as he appeared there, he

17 addressed us, he said who he was, and then he began asking us where we

18 were headed and all that, and then he went out in front of us and said a

19 few words, not very long, not longer than ten minutes at most.

20 Q. You describe that he arrived in an armoured personnel carrier and

21 that the same was located approximately 100 metres from you. Did this

22 armoured personnel carrier have wheels or a track?

23 A. There was a correction made yesterday, I believe. I'm not sure

24 whether it was a tracked vehicle or whether it had wheels. I only saw it

25 when it was passing by me some ten metres away, and when he addressed us.

Page 12532

1 So what type of vehicle it was, I'm not really sure and I can't confirm.

2 Q. Do you recall how many doors it had on it?

3 A. Well, try to put yourself in my shoes. Would you have time to

4 think about how many doors that vehicle had or what type of vehicle it

5 was? It was a matter of survival so I wasn't really paying any attention

6 to what kind of vehicle it was so I can't really say.

7 Q. Fair enough. Now I want to move to what you recall

8 General Mladic's words were. In your Rule 92 ter statement that we have

9 up on the screen you state as follows, and it's paragraph 20 if you want

10 to follow along, and you say:

11 "First, Mladic asked do you know me? Some said, Yes, and others

12 were quiet. He said, I am the general, Ratko Mladic. Where were you

13 going, what was your goal? Where is your state? Where is

14 Alija Izetbegovic and Silajdzic? Where are your commanders Naser and

15 Zulfo Tursunovic. You do not have your state here. You have to go look

16 for your state. You sent your women to be protected by UNPROFOR while

17 you're killing our soldiers. None can pass through because we have

18 knitted a net with our soldiers, they are close together and have dogs.

19 You do not have to worry. You will be exchanged and join your families

20 in Tuzla. Now you'll be transported by trucks to Bratunac or Kravica

21 where you will spend the night and get some food."

22 And the question I want to ask you, sir, is: Do you really stand

23 by every word that is printed here as truthfully and accurately

24 reflecting what you remember Mladic to have said on that occasion?

25 A. Yes. I can confirm that, and this is true. All of this is true.

Page 12533

1 And I will never forget this for as long as I live. Everything I've said

2 there is correct.

3 Q. Sir, we received an information report from the Prosecutor's

4 office dated 27 January 1998 - it's signed by the OTP investigators for

5 January 1999 - reflecting what you had corrected that you did not know

6 whether General Mladic mentioned Bratunac as is indicated in this

7 paragraph. Is that accurate?

8 A. No. I didn't really understand what you are saying. I don't see

9 that Bratunac is mentioned anywhere. Could you please repeat your

10 question?

11 Q. Sir, in the part that we just read at paragraph 20 of your

12 statement, Bratunac is mentioned in both the B/C/S and the English. And

13 my question to you, sir, was that we have an information report from the

14 Prosecution indicating that you corrected this part of the paragraph to

15 remove the reference to Bratunac. Is that accurate?

16 A. I don't really remember. It's possible. But he said, You will

17 be received by our soldiers. You will be accommodated. You will get

18 food and water. I don't know about Bratunac specifically. I see it in

19 the statement so it's possible that he did say it.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. And now here in paragraph 20, the part that

21 I just read and that you just confirmed, you also have this phrase:

22 "You sent your women to be protected by UNPROFOR while you're

23 killing our soldiers."

24 And I want to ask you, in relation to the speech given by General

25 Mladic at Kasaba, you have given other statements in your own language to

Page 12534

1 various BiH organs including the 19 July 1995 statement that we have

2 looked at, also one to an investigative judge 27 July 1995, another dated

3 28 July 1995, and one dated 3 August 1995. Now, I've read all these, and

4 in none of these statements do I find this language that I have just

5 highlighted for you that appears in your ICTY statement which is taken

6 just a few days after the last of these statements to the BiH

7 authorities. Can you tell us or explain to us how it was that this

8 language only appears in your ICTY statement of August 1995, the language

9 as to:

10 "You sent your women to be protected by UNPROFOR while you're

11 killing our soldiers"?

12 A. I think that that language can be found in every one of my

13 statements. You sent your women and children to UNPROFOR while you're

14 killing our soldiers. And I believe this language is in each and every

15 one of my statements.

16 Q. If I could have 1D1031, it's page 3 in both languages, and in the

17 B/C/S it is at the top of the page whereas in the English it is in the

18 middle of the page.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, the gist of the last question is that

20 this language does not appear in any of the other statements as put on

21 paper. Is there any dispute about this?

22 MR. TRALDI: I'd want to check each of them before coming back to

23 the Chamber.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 Meanwhile proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 12535

1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Q. Sir, if you would follow along with me, the part I'd like to

3 focus on reads as follows:

4 "On that occasion, an improvised stage was set up near the road,

5 and at one moment the Chetnik general, Ratko Mladic, who had come in a

6 personnel carrier, addressed us from the stage. He said the following

7 words: 'Do you know who I am?' Some then said they did and some kept

8 silent. He then talked to us, saying he was Ratko Mladic. Then he asked

9 us why we were fighting in vain and said we were recklessly following

10 Alija, Silajdzic and the other leaders and losing our lives. He then

11 asked, 'Where is your Naser? I took him by helicopter to Sarajevo.

12 Where is your Zulfo? Here are his documents. How many thousand German

13 marks did he take with him? Does he know that he cannot pass through my

14 lines?' On that occasion he also told us that he would exchange all of

15 us disregarding that each of us was, that nobody would be hurt and that

16 we would be reunited with our families. After the speech he got into his

17 personnel carrier and set off in the direction of Konjevic Polje."

18 I apologise, I'm told that's page 3 of the B/C/S which I thought

19 was what I had read and it should be at the top of the page. We have

20 page 2 up on the screen.

21 Sir, does that selection from your 1995 July 19 statement refresh

22 your recollection as to whether the text "you sent your women to be

23 protected by UNPROFOR while you're killing our soldiers" was indeed

24 something that you added at the time that the ICTY statement was

25 generated for the first time?

Page 12536

1 A. No, no. I claim with full responsibility that I did not add that

2 sentence. He said:

3 "You sent your wife and children to UNPROFOR while you're killing

4 our soldier. Not a single soldier will get through, and if you have any

5 family members, call them, tell them to come out of the woods lest they

6 be killed there."

7 And I've said this on every occasion, there were several

8 statements that I provided, and perhaps a word or two may have been

9 omitted, or I don't know how it was translated, but I do state and claim

10 with full responsibility that this is what he said and I will never

11 recant that.

12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, rather than going through all the

13 statements I would invite the Office of the Prosecutor to stipulate that

14 it's neither of those four prior statements, once I've had a chance to

15 review the same.

16 MR. TRALDI: We will come back to that tomorrow.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, we are about three minutes from

18 adjourning for the day. I'd like to read a brief statement on behalf of

19 the Chamber, and rather than to go first in closed session then in open

20 session again I'd rather do it now when we are still in open session.

21 MR. IVETIC: That's fine, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And then we will adjourn later on in closed session.

23 The Chamber turns now to the issue of the Defence's request for a

24 reduction in the trial sitting schedule.

25 On the 4th of June this year, the Chamber held an administrative