130614ED

Page 12707

1 Friday, 14 June 2013

2 [The accused entered court]

3 [Closed session]

4 (redacted)

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14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Madam Registrar, would

17 you please call the case.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case

19 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

21 Witness 269, I would like to remind you that you're still bound

22 by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony

23 yesterday and Ms. Hochhauser you may proceed with your

24 examination-in-chief.

25 WITNESS: RM269 [Resumed]

Page 12708

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you, Your Honour, and good morning. Could

3 I ask that we return to private session, please?

4 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

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Page 12709

11 Pages 12709-12715 redacted. Private session.

Page 12717

1 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

2 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Can we please have Exhibit P1132 on the monitor

3 at page 131?

4 JUDGE ORIE: If by the way the Chamber was overcautious in

5 admitting it under seal, could you please consider to what extent it's

6 really needed so that if it can be made public that we change that.

7 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Mr. Vanderpuye and I were having that

8 conversation by eye, so I'll get back to you after the break about that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Please proceed.

10 MS. HOCHHAUSER:

11 Q. Witness, do you recognise what's on the screen in front of us

12 now?

13 A. Yes. It's the physical education gymnasium at the Orahovac

14 primary cool.

15 Q. Is that the location that you discuss in your prior testimony?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, can you tell us the -- where it's marked entrance and exit

18 on this photograph, did -- is that accurate, to your recollection?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Can we turn, please, to page 130, the page

21 before, on the monitor? And if we could zoom in so that only the picture

22 on the left that's marked "gym" is on the screen, and if I could actually

23 ask again for the assistance of the usher so that the witness can mark on

24 the photograph.

25 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you if we are now looking at the

Page 12718

1 outside of the same building, of the gymnasium?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you mark for us, please, with an E from the outside the

4 corresponding -- the entrance. So what we saw on the inside marked as

5 entrance, can you mark where it is on the outside of the building with an

6 E and then the same with an X for the exit?

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Now, can you tell us what you observed Nada Stojanovic doing at

9 Orahovac?

10 A. Well, we all had pretty much the same role, and that was to

11 secure the building and the individuals inside it. I was in a group of

12 several people at the entrance, whereas Nada would occasionally come to

13 us, she would walk around the school, she would go to the road.

14 Specifically her duty, or at least that's what I saw her doing, was when

15 prisoners were being taken out and loaded on to trucks, I saw her and

16 another policeman, two or three individuals, soldiers, at the exit. The

17 driver of that little truck may have been with them. And I saw them

18 moving tied up individuals on to trucks. As this was going on, people

19 inside were complaining they didn't know what it meant, where they were

20 being taken in such rather small groups. So I was at the entranceway,

21 and focused on pacifying the mass of people there.

22 Q. When you say "moving tied up individuals on to trucks," can you

23 tell us whether you actually saw the people being bound, and in what --

24 in what way were they bound?

25 A. Well, I can't be precise enough to tell you what they were bound

Page 12719

1 with. Was it wire? I can't be sure. At any rate, I am definitely

2 certain that they were bound.

3 Q. And did you see any of the prisoners there blindfolded?

4 A. I don't know with what degree of certainty I can state this but

5 I do believe that I saw Nada putting blindfolds on. Now, was this

6 something that Nada was supposed to do in respect of every individual,

7 well, I didn't really pay that much attention to that, as I did to the

8 entrance where the mass of people was, by that time, greatly upset.

9 Q. And in the past several responses, you have referred to people by

10 the entrance, people by the exit. What we have marked on the screen now

11 where you've marked the entrance and the exit from the outside of the

12 building, is -- does that reflect where you're talking about?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, I'd like to tender the marked

15 exhibit, please.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Document as marked by the witness receives number

18 P1566, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

20 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we could turn for a moment, please in this

21 same -- same -- the same item of evidence, the photo book, P1132, to

22 page 164? I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I have the wrong -- I have the wrong

23 number -- page. I apologise. I believe it's page 186.

24 Q. So, Witness, if you could take a look at this page, 186, that's

25 on the monitor now and then if we could also flip to page 187, the next

Page 12720

1 page, and can you just identify for us whether this reflects one of the

2 locations that you discuss in your testimony -- in your previous

3 testimony? And what is that location?

4 A. Yes. It's the primary school at Rocevici.

5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, that concludes my examination of

6 this witness.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser. You've shown the witness

8 two pictures. My recollection doesn't serve me. 186 and 187 is the same

9 building from different sides? Is that --

10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Well, I can leave that to the witness rather

11 than --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Of course, we have testimony about what it

13 depicts but the two pictures shown to you, I think -- yes. There is one

14 on the screen. Both the pictures, the one seems to be a bit of a darker

15 building, the other one seems to be a more white building, is that the

16 same building from different sides?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

19 Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning.

23 A. Good morning.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by

25 Mr. Stojanovic. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic. You'll find

Page 12721

1 him to your left.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Will you tell the Chamber what time of day it was that you

5 received an order from your company commander to set off in the direction

6 of Orahovac?

7 A. Can I start by saying, without taking up too much of your time,

8 that time didn't play much of a role to me. My time was disposed of by

9 others and I did not really pay attention to what day it was or what time

10 of day, though I can tell you that I believe it was after breakfast.

11 Q. [Microphone not activated]

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Can you tell the Chamber how much time it took you to reach the

15 school at Orahovac from the Zvornik Brigade HQ?

16 A. Not more than 20 minutes.

17 Q. When you got there, prisoners had not arrived yet; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How much time passed after you arrived there and after the

20 preparations you referred to, that buses started finally arriving?

21 A. Well, quite soon, an hour, half an hour, or perhaps a bit more

22 than an hour later.

23 Q. In your best estimate, a dozen buses arrived; is that right?

24 A. Roughly.

25 Q. Were they civilian buses?

Page 12722

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell the Chamber who secured the buses and who escorted

3 them?

4 A. Members of the civilian police did.

5 Q. Were all prisoners from these buses put up in the gymnasium that

6 you were looking at a moment ago?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. There were no prisoners in the classrooms of the school?

9 A. No.

10 Q. At one point, the inhabitants of these villages started

11 assembling?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you explain or describe the situation, what it was like? Was

14 there a risk of an incident happening?

15 A. Of course. There was confusion and commotion, as the buses

16 started arriving, people grew ever more curious. The school is located

17 centrally in the village. People started gathering spontaneously. Am I

18 speaking slowly enough for the sake of interpretation? They started

19 gathering. Frankly, they did not take trouble to conceal at all their

20 anger and hatred, which were quite understandable up to a point because

21 there was nobody in that crowd of people who didn't lose someone among

22 their nearest and dearest.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted) There was a large group of Muslims breaking heir

Page 12723

1 way through that area in the direction of Tuzla, so there was fighting

2 going on there. We were in such a position that we didn't know where to

3 look first or where to turn first. We turned toward the prisoners in the

4 school because they could hear a lot of noise and shouting, an odd bullet

5 being fired outside. People were frustrated. Some of the people outside

6 were visibly intoxicated, brandishing weapons. You had to be cautious in

7 approaching these people and dealing with them. It was very dangerous.

8 So we had ever more problems with the group as it grew in numbers

9 eventually.

10 Q. Do you remember if that unhappy crowd of people, disgruntled

11 crowd of people, did they ask for the people inside to be liquidated, to

12 be killed, that revenge be taken?

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted) He asked

16 me what I was doing there so I explained to him that I had been wounded

17 so I was assigned here to take some rest. He asked me then, Well, what

18 are you waiting for? We should kill them all. And then I said, Well,

19 take it slowly. This isn't the manner in which this should be

20 approached. But you could already tell by looking at these people that

21 they were passed the stage of being spoken to or reasoned with.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic -- or Ms. Hochhauser?

23 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I was going to ask that we go into

24 private session for a moment.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we may do that. Before we do so,

Page 12724

1 Mr. Stojanovic, approximately 95 per cent of the evidence that you are

2 eliciting from this witness at this moment is found in his statement and

3 I have not heard one question which seems to challenge or to dispute

4 anything which is found in his statement. So therefore I'm wondering

5 what we are -- what we are doing. The only thing is you add a few

6 details to what is presented as evidence by the Prosecution. Could you

7 please focus on what is in dispute and could you please not repeat the

8 evidence just to say, for example, killing? Comments along the lines,

9 all of them ought to be killed, that's what the witness said already. We

10 move into private session.

11 [Private session]

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Page 12725

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, in your best estimation, how many prisoners were brought

7 there on these ten-odd buses?

8 A. I don't know if I'm in a position to say. The buses were quite

9 full. There were some people standing, and if you consider that some 50

10 to 60 individuals can stand and there may have been more than ten buses,

11 I even expressed a reservation in one of the statements that there may

12 have been as many as 15 buses but not more, so I would guess between 700

13 and 800 people.

14 Q. Can you recall if some other units passed by Orahovac in the

15 direction of Baljkovica at the time that you were in front of the school?

16 A. Yes. The road was otherwise used for those who went to man the

17 lines at Baljkovica, Kitovnica. I think it was under the 6th Battalion

18 but I'm not sure. Many of them would linger as they passed by, slow

19 down, because they were trying to see what was going on. Some of them

20 stopped and stayed.

21 Q. You, yourself, never went to the place where executions were

22 carried out?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You personally don't know who participated in these executions,

25 do you?

Page 12726

1 A. No.

2 Q. To the best of your recollection, when was the last group of

3 prisoners taken out of the gymnasium?

4 A. At dusk, just before it became dark. At that time it was already

5 over.

6 Q. Apart from the order that you received from your company

7 commander to provide security to the school building and to prevent any

8 possible acts of revenge, did you at any point receive a different or a

9 new order?

10 A. No.

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 Q. I'd like to ask you this - we are in public session - can you

16 tell us if, as you were performing your tasks, more military policemen

17 from the Zvornik Brigade came there at some point?

18 A. Not policemen, no, but some members of the Zvornik Brigade came

19 along with us who happened to be down there. As I said, the majority of

20 personnel were at Baljkovica because that was where the much-talked-about

21 breakthrough was ongoing and where there was fighting going on.

22 Q. Do you know an individual by the Gojko Simic?

23 A. The name is familiar, but I cannot remember him now.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a

Page 12727

1 good time for the break because I'm going to be using another document.

2 So perhaps we can do that after the break.

3 JUDGE ORIE: It is, Mr. Stojanovic. For the witness to leave the

4 courtroom, we briefly turn into closed session.

5 [Closed session]

6 (redacted)

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16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19 Mr. Stojanovic, once you're ready and once the curtains are up,

20 you may proceed.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at P1565 in e-court,

22 and this is a document under seal.

23 Q. And while we are waiting for the document to be shown, Witness,

24 let's just go back to the document that you were able to see a little bit

25 earlier. Do you know who maintained this record of attendance of members

Page 12728

1 of your unit? Don't mention your unit, please.

2 A. May I name the person?

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps then it

6 would be better to move into private session for this particular topic.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

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Page 12729

11 Pages 12729-12732 redacted. Private session.

Page 12733

1 (redacted)

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4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, at one point the following day, you received an order to

9 go to the Rocevic school; is this correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who did you go with to the school in Rocevic?

12 A. With Jasikovac and with a military policeman by the name of

13 Cane -- nicknamed Cane.

14 Q. And can you please tell me specifically what your order said for

15 that day?

16 A. It was the same as for the previous day in Orahovac, to secure

17 the place, not allow civilians in, because the school is also in the

18 centre of the village, so we were to prevent the villagers from

19 approaching or coming close to the prisoners.

20 Q. Was the atmosphere among the inhabitants of that village

21 different than the one you described in front of the school in Orahovac?

22 A. Perhaps it was slightly less intense, because judging by the way

23 these people looked and by their conduct, we assumed that these were

24 villagers, they were armed, some were visibly drunk. That was when

25 I noticed five or six dead bodies around the school.

Page 12734

1 JUDGE ORIE: One question to clarify. When asked about what you

2 were ordered to do, you said more or less that you should protect the

3 prisoners against the villagers. May I take it that it was also part of

4 your task to take care that the prisoners would stay where they were?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the prisoners to stay where

6 they were and for us to secure the facility, to secure or guard the

7 facility where they were located, and to try and prevent others from

8 getting to them. Meaning the local population.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The prisoners shouldn't go out and the villagers

10 should not go in, is that what your task was?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Did you find at any point in time how those five or six bodies

15 came to be there, how were those people killed?

16 A. By the time we arrived, they had already been put up in the

17 gymnasium; in other words, it wasn't the same as it had been in Orahovac

18 where we were waiting for them and received them. When we got there,

19 they were already in the gym. We heard off the record that it was one of

20 the local men there who had lost a member of their family, apparently a

21 man who had lost his son and then took out a couple of these individuals

22 from the gym and killed them.

23 Q. Were you able to recognise any of the individuals who were there

24 before you, as security for the prisoners?

25 A. No, not really. I only saw - and this is my opinion - that they

Page 12735

1 recognised each other, that they recognised the villagers as well.

2 Q. Apart from the two of you and your company commander, were there

3 any other members of your unit there on that day that you observed?

4 A. Well, I can say that there were many soldiers there. Now, did

5 I recognise any of them? No. I can't say that.

6 Q. You didn't see anyone either from the MP company of the

7 Zvornik Brigade; right?

8 A. No, I didn't.

9 Q. When did the boarding and transportation of these individuals

10 start?

11 A. By the time we got there, it was already underway. They were

12 already dealing with it.

13 Q. Who boarded and transported prisoners?

14 A. People in uniform. They wore uniforms of the VRS. I didn't know

15 them.

16 Q. You didn't go to the site where these people were being

17 transported and executed?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You don't know who did it specifically, do you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. As you were outside the school in Orahovac on the first day, did

22 you see General Mladic at any point?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did there come a time that you left the unit you were a part of

25 in the Zvornik Brigade, a couple of days later?

Page 12736

1 A. Yes.

2 (redacted)

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22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, we move briefly into private

23 session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 12737

11 Page 12737 redacted. Private session.

Page 12738

1 (redacted)

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16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Let me finish with one more question. After this assignment

21 outside the school in Rocevic, did you have any other duties concerning

22 prisoners?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Witness, thank you. The Defence has no further questions for

25 you.

Page 12739

1 A. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

3 Ms. Hochhauser, has the cross-examination triggered any need for

4 further questions?

5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Just very briefly, Your Honour, perhaps three

6 minutes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

8 Re-examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

9 Q. Witness, are you aware that there were military police officers

10 that went to Orahovac to guard prisoners the night before you went so

11 that it would be the evening of the 13th? Do you have any knowledge

12 about that?

13 A. I have no personal knowledge of it.

14 Q. On today's temporary transcript at page 19, line 15 through 17,

15 you were asked the question:

16 "You personally don't know who participated in these executions,

17 do you?"

18 And you answered:

19 "No."

20 And that was in regard to the executions of the prisoners taken

21 out of the Orahovac school. Now, in Exhibit P1561, at e-court pages 21

22 through 23, you described the fact that soldiers from the

23 Zvornik Brigade - and on at least one occasion accompanied also by

24 Zvornik Brigade MPs - came back with the empty buses talking about the

25 fact that prisoners had been killed; is that right? You heard these

Page 12740

1 soldiers talking about the fact that prisoners were being killed when

2 they arrived back from the site?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And did you see -- well, just to be clear, those -- those men who

5 were talking or soldiers who were talking about prisoners being killed,

6 were the same men that had accompanied the buses full of soldiers, full

7 of prisoners and then come back to the school with empty buses shortly

8 thereafter; correct?

9 A. Two policemen were also charged with being escorts of these

10 buses. However, when the vehicle left the compound and went down the

11 road to the execution site, many others joined. Now, was it to make an

12 impression on those who were by the road side and looking on? Some were

13 boasting, firing the ammunition that they had in their barrels. I only

14 saw once that military policemen were with the truck as it was driving

15 down the road. I don't know if it was their duty to be escorting every

16 single vehicle.

17 Q. When you say others joined and were firing the ammunition they

18 had in their barrels, we are talking about soldiers; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And those were soldiers that you recognised as of the Zvornik --

21 recognised - I don't mean personally but by uniform - as being -- by

22 uniform. And from their interaction with the crowd, I believe you say in

23 the statement, as being from the Zvornik Brigade; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you also see them at any point when they returned cleaning

Page 12741

1 their guns?

2 A. They would recharge their ammunition clips, et cetera. But,

3 again, I repeat, I was focused on that other crowd. I would just cast

4 glances at them. I was still focused on the entrance. There were people

5 who were very much agitated by that point. They had heard gun shots and

6 knew that something was amiss.

7 Q. And when you say that there were people there who were hearing

8 gun shots and knew that something was amiss, you've also described that

9 there were local people around the area at -- at around the school at

10 Orahovac. Was it -- was it clear from your observations of everybody

11 that was there that -- that they could hear the gunshots and were aware

12 that something was going on?

13 A. Well, they could and they could have supposed it. The small

14 truck would take a smallish group of people, I don't know how many could

15 fit, and very soon it would come back and the trip would be repeated

16 again. I think that they were aware that this was about an execution.

17 Q. So just to be clear, it was -- it was obvious to you at the time

18 that these people were being executed, and was it your impression that it

19 was obvious to the -- tot he others that were gathered there?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: That concludes my redirect examination,

22 Your Honours. Thank you for the opportunity.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser. No further questions.

24 Then, Witness, I'd like to thank you very much because this

25 concludes your examination in this Court. Witness RM269, we thank you

Page 12742

1 for coming to The Hague and for having answered all the questions that

2 were put to you, both by the parties and by the Bench, and once the

3 curtains are down, you may follow the usher and I wish you a safe return

4 home again. We turn into closed session.

5 [Closed session]

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Page 12743

11 Page 12743 redacted. Closed session.

Page 12744

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10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: We are back in open session, Madam Registrar, if I'm

15 well informed, and thank you for guiding us into open session.

16 Mr. Vanderpuye? Associated exhibits, previous witness.

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, good morning, Mr. President. Good morning,

18 Your Honours, everyone. I have only a handful of them, I believe.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Just take them one by one.

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: 65 ter 28980.

21 JUDGE ORIE: That's the first one. Any objections,

22 Mr. Stojanovic?

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, we have no objections to any

24 of the associated exhibits, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, the first one, 65 ter 28980

Page 12745

1 receives number?

2 THE REGISTRAR: Number P1567, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

4 Mr. Vanderpuye, if there is any need to have them under seal

5 you'll indicate that, I take it?

6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I will, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Next number.

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: 28981.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1568, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

12 Next one.

13 MR. VANDERPUYE: 65 ter 28982.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1569, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

16 MR. VANDERPUYE: 65 ter 4927.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1570, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: 65 ter 4928.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1571, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: 65 ter 4951.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1572, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: 65 ter 5259.

Page 12746

1 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1573, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.

3 MR. VANDERPUYE: And 65 ter 6197.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1574, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And is also admitted into evidence.

6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's time for the break.

8 We will resume after the break in closed session to hear the

9 testimony of the next witness, and we'll resume at ten minutes past

10 mid-day.

11 --- Recess taken at 11.48 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.15 p.m.

13 [Closed session]

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Page 12747

11 Pages 12747-12782 redacted. Closed session.