130718ED

Page 14643

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, madam.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

5 make a solemn declaration. The text is handed out to you by the usher.

6 Could I make -- could I invite to you make that solemn

7 declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 WITNESS: TEUFIKA IBRAHIMEFENDIC

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you. Please be seated.

13 Madam, you'll first be examined by Ms. Hasan. Ms. Hasan is

14 counsel for the Prosecution and you find her to your right.

15 Ms. Hasan, please proceed.

16 Examination by Ms. Hasan:

17 Q. Good morning, ma'am. Welcome back to the Tribunal.

18 Could you please state your name for the record.

19 A. Teufika Ibrahimefendic.

20 Q. Is it correct that you have testified before this Tribunal on

21 four previous occasions: Namely, in the Krstic case, on 27 July 2000; in

22 the Plavsic case, in December of 2002; in the Tolimir case, in

23 February of 2011; and, most recently, in the Karadzic case, on

24 22nd March 2012.

25 A. Yes.

Page 14644

1 Q. And can you confirm that you've recently had an opportunity to

2 listen to the testimony you gave in the Krstic trial.

3 A. Yes, I listened to it.

4 Q. And you recall discussing with me that you wished to make a

5 correction to that testimony; namely, to portion of it found at

6 transcript page 5830, where you are recorded as having stated at

7 lines 7 to 8, and I quote:

8 "But there isn't a single family in Zvornik, for, example, that

9 hasn't 20 male members of its family missing."

10 And you wish to make clear that you were given -- giving an

11 example of one family who had 20 male members missing and not that all

12 families in Zvornik had 20 male members missing. Is that a correction

13 you wish to make to your prior testimony?

14 A. Yes, that is the correction. But yesterday, while I was

15 listening to the material, there was another sentence, saying that in one

16 family, 20 persons went missing.

17 The context was the following. A Judge asked me whether there

18 were similar traumas in other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, to which I

19 replied in the affirmative. That there were people missing in Zvornik,

20 and that, in one family, 20 had gone missing, but not as many as in the

21 families in, say, Srebrenica. That's what I would like to add.

22 Otherwise, I agree with the correction.

23 Q. Thank you. And taking into account the -- these corrections that

24 you've just made, and bearing in mind that the evidence that you gave in

25 the Krstic case related to your knowledge of the conditions of women and

Page 14645

1 children and survivors of the Srebrenica events, related to what was

2 known in 2000, can you confirm that the evidence you gave in -- to the

3 Krstic Chamber was true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?

4 A. Yes. That was information about patients, clients in the year

5 2000. That's what I spoke about.

6 Q. And if you were asked today about those same matters, would you

7 provide the -- this Court with the same information, again bearing in

8 mind, that it was related to what was known in the year 2000?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, normally I would tender the -- her

11 prior testimony from the Krstic case, which is 65 ter 29099. However, I

12 am mindful of your decision of 1st July in which there was an instruction

13 to postpone the tendering of her testimony until the completion -- until

14 she completes her testimony.

15 JUDGE ORIE: It is clear and it's on the record that you have the

16 intention to tender the material.

17 Please proceed.

18 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I'll proceed with a very brief summary

19 of her prior testimony.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we proceed, Ms. Ibrahimefendic, are you -- is

22 your chair comfortable or is it moving and not very comfortable?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will try to move closer or ...

24 yeah, it's all right now.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Is it --

Page 14646

1 THE WITNESS: Okay.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You're not having troubles in keeping the chair in

3 the same position?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not now.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then we proceed.

6 MS. HASAN: So, Mr. President, I'll proceed then with a brief

7 summary.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please read it.

9 MS. HASAN: Ms. Teufika Ibrahimefendic is a psychotherapist who

10 has treated women and children traumatised by the war. Since 1994 she

11 has worked for the Vive Zene organisation which is a multi-disciplinary

12 organisation specialising in the treatment of victims of war, including

13 hundreds of women and children traumatised by the July 1995 events of

14 Srebrenica. The witness previously testified about the effects of the

15 trauma on the Srebrenica victims.

16 That concludes the summary.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. If you have any additional questions,

18 please proceed.

19 MS. HASAN:

20 Q. Ms. Ibrahimefendic, if we can just begin covering a bit more of

21 your background since 2000.

22 Since you testified in the Krstic case, is it correct that you

23 have continued to practice as a psychotherapist?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And while you were the psycho-social ^ co-ordinator of the

Page 14647

1 Vive Zene, can you tell us what position you currently hold in that same

2 organisation?

3 A. Apart from my daily psychotherapeutic work, I'm also training

4 co-ordinator. That is, I'm in charge of the training programmes at

5 Vive Zene. We train both our own staff and professionals from other

6 organisations, such as social workers, psychologists, police officers,

7 and so on.

8 Q. Now the Vive Zene organisation, does it continue to receive

9 funding from the European Commission and the Netherlands Ministry of

10 Foreign Affairs?

11 A. Yes. We receive funding from the European community but now no

12 longer from the Dutch ministry. Instead, we receive funding from a Swiss

13 organisation, then from Norway, from UNDP, the UN for victims of torture.

14 I'm speaking mostly about donations from these organisations and

15 countries.

16 Q. Okay. And since the year 2000, has the Vive Zene organisation

17 become more active in dealing with -- in dealing with recovery from

18 trauma at a community level, as it pertains to the Srebrenica victims?

19 A. Yes. Initially, since 1994, when our organisation was founded,

20 we mostly worked with individual patients. But in the past ten years or

21 so, we have worked intensively in the community. We work with groups or

22 families but also with other groups. We do not only work with women who

23 were victims of violence but also with other victims of torture.

24 Now our multi-disciplinary team has 16 members, of whom six are

25 psychologists, three are pedagogists, then we also have doctors, nurses,

Page 14648

1 social workers, and a social pedagogue. We have widen our activities.

2 Q. Can I --

3 A. We also -- we're also active in the legal field. We're trying to

4 bring about changes of laws and regulations.

5 Q. Okay. Now, besides your co-ordinating and management

6 responsibilities, have you continued to carry your own case load of -- of

7 treating patients? Have you continued to do that?

8 JUDGE ORIE: The question already seems to have been answered.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's my ...

10 MS. HASAN:

11 Q. Sorry, I don't think we got the end of that.

12 Could you just repeat what you were going to say. All we got

13 was:

14 "Yes, that's my ..."

15 Did you intend to continue your answer?

16 A. That's my basic task - treating patients. That's what I do at

17 Vive Zene.

18 Q. And are you still a member of the European Association for

19 Psychotherapists?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you also continue to -- have you also continued to be a member

22 of the European Association of Gestalt Psychotherapy?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And is it correct that you -- sorry. I'll -- I'll rephrase that.

25 Have you worked with -- do you continue to work with both Serb

Page 14649

1 and Bosnian victims of the war?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And since your -- and since -- well, in the last 13 years, can

4 you tell us whether you've treated women who suffer from the Srebrenica

5 Syndrome?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. And those women that you've treated that suffer from the

8 Srebrenica Syndrome, do they still live in the state of uncertainty, as

9 you've described it in your prior testimony?

10 A. Many things have changed since I gave testimony in 2013 [as

11 interpreted]. There have been changed in the field of individual trauma

12 and also collective trauma.

13 Since 1995, when I began to work with women who were put up in

14 Tuzla after being expelled from Srebrenica, there have been both

15 similarities and differences between individuals. But one can say that

16 from the initial traumatisation characterised by panic, fear and

17 uncertainty, gave way to the confusion and lack of understanding, due to

18 the fast changes.

19 Then there was grief due to loss. The traumatic event that

20 happened in 1995 in Srebrenica is an original, a basic event, but

21 everything that happened later made the victims go through their own

22 individual process which was also a group process and one characteristic

23 of the whole community. At first, I focussed on individual symptoms,

24 because, at that time, the victims mostly complained of their problems

25 and the symptoms they could not understand and had a very hard time

Page 14650

1 coping.

2 Q. Ms. Ibrahimefendic, if I could stop you right there. Can you

3 tell us more precisely, the women who suffer from the Srebrenica Syndrome

4 who still not found -- have not had their loved one's remains identified,

5 can you describe their condition to us? Those women who today still

6 don't have those identifications.

7 A. I was going to say that. Now, the main feature of that trauma is

8 grief and sorrow and deep suffering because their loved ones still have

9 not been identified. The search for the mortal remains is still ongoing.

10 Nearly 8.000 people in Bosnia-Herzegovina still haven't found their

11 nearest and dearest. The traumatic reactions have to do with grief and

12 sorrow and the problem of stopping these. Because the bodies still

13 haven't been found and then the real mourning cannot begin. And when I

14 say "mourning," I mean the beginning of a recovery. Although many women

15 have learned to live with these symptoms and accepted their life as it is

16 in their own way, but that doesn't mean that they aren't still suffering.

17 Q. Based on your observations in treating these women, can you just

18 briefly describe for us how they envision their future.

19 A. In the context of their overall physical and mental health, it is

20 very difficult to hear from them how they see their future. They still

21 don't have a vision because everything is connected with the dead, with

22 mourning, with current illnesses in the family, with loss, and it's very

23 difficult for them to imagine their future and distance themselves from

24 the dramatic event. As much as the therapist or anyone else may wish to

25 help them to establish distance from the past, they always go back to it.

Page 14651

1 So it's a very difficult task to build that distance and have

2 them focus on the future. They feel that they need more information,

3 that they need to learn the truth, and they need support from others,

4 from the community, and that others must understand and acknowledge their

5 suffering. That is necessary for relations with others to develop in the

6 direction of trust. Because that's a very -- that's a significant

7 difficulty. They don't trust anybody. And they have difficulties in

8 contacts with others. And some women still have problems with

9 themselves. So that it's hard on them. The traumatic process still has

10 not finished, and it's difficult for them to build a vision of the

11 future.

12 Q. Now, when you testified in Krstic, you explained that when these

13 women receive certificates confirming the death of their relative, they

14 get re-traumatised at that point. There's a bit of a regression and then

15 they can begin a -- the process of, as you just said, mourning.

16 Can you explain whether once these women receive the confirmation

17 of the death of their relatives, whether they're grieving process after

18 that point is the same or different to the normal grieving process, for

19 example, if I were to lose a parent in -- in normal circumstances?

20 A. The phenomenon of missing persons is a separate issue not only in

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina but worldwide. When one says a person had gone

22 missing and there's no information of their whereabouts, the people are,

23 of course, under the pressure of finding that person. But once the

24 mortal remains are found and once they are faced with the results of DNA

25 analysis, still a good portion of them cannot believe that it is the

Page 14652

1 person. That is why it is very difficult to speak of it in terms of

2 regular grieving or mourning.

3 It is a fact that many women who even managed to locate their

4 nearest and dearest, especially in terms of mothers who found their

5 children, they exhibit signs of relief. They are relieved because the

6 mortal remains of their near and dear have finally been found. Although

7 there is this amount of relief, on the other hand they also feel

8 exceptionally sad. They are in disbelief. They still do not want to

9 believe that these are the bones of their child. The loss of a child is

10 one of the most difficult losses.

11 So to speak of it in terms of regular grieving, like when one has

12 lost a parent who was 85 years old, the death of that person is accepted

13 as part of loss, normal loss in life. But in the case of the missing,

14 one cannot speak of it that way, because there's always this doubt.

15 There's always a degree of unclarity. A number of issues, questions,

16 that cannot be answered by those left behind, in terms of how that person

17 died, whether they were tortured, whether they were alone, scared,

18 hungry, thirsty, et cetera. There's a number of different circumstances

19 surrounding such deaths which burden those who had lost their family

20 members.

21 On the other hand, though, there is this degree of relief once

22 the mortal remains are found because there is a place they can go to.

23 They can go to the grave. And they have a feeling of some kind of

24 contact with someone who was very close to them, something that belongs

25 to them. It's a place of mourning, a place of relieving one's sadness.

Page 14653

1 Q. And you've mentioned the children, and you mentioned those

2 children that were lost. But as pertains to the children who are

3 survivors of the Srebrenica events, you've previously testified about the

4 symptoms they exhibited in the Krstic case.

5 Now, can you tell us today in the last 13 years, how -- how are

6 those -- how are the children doing? Do they still suffer from

7 difficulties?

8 A. Children develop, and in the course of that development, they

9 have an opportunity to receive support and to learn many new things in

10 life, to shape their personality so that one part of their identity can

11 remain normal, so to speak.

12 However, there's always a missing part in that identity. There's

13 a void which is never to be filled. Not because some children did not

14 receive a chance to develop or that some of them did not have these,

15 quote/unquote, normal conditions of development. It is because their

16 parents had been traumatised and because in the family circle there was

17 always talk of things past. That is why such children often live in the

18 past, together with their parents. If the children listen to the stories

19 of their parents who talk about their helplessness, about their feeling

20 of not being able to do anything, then the children, in the present, look

21 for some kind of strength to try and pull out their parent from this

22 helplessness.

23 In that part of their identity, there's confusion, which makes

24 their growth and development difficult. It is additionally made

25 difficult because there wasn't sufficient discussion of what happened.

Page 14654

1 The children cannot reconstruct the events themselves because they don't

2 know what happened in July 1995. But at least feelings should have been

3 discussed. They should have been able to talk about what they went

4 through, how they felt, how they were being taken care of, fed, and

5 clothed. But all such basic information was withheld, and the children

6 remained living in this empty space without a sufficient degree of

7 understanding.

8 What is particularly pronounced is that the children were

9 overprotected by their parents on the one hand, whilst, on the other

10 hand, the children had a lot of fear for their mothers. That is why they

11 took care of their mothers. They exhibited adult properties in terms of

12 taking care of their mother, and the mother assumed the role of the

13 child.

14 It is particularly important to stress that if there's a son

15 missing in the family and the other one is still alive, then the

16 children, if they were small, and the mother kept crying and talking

17 about the missing son, the remaining son felt unimportant or less

18 important, and such children often avoided their mothers because they

19 were depressed and sad and kept repeating sad stories and yet the

20 children needed support. They needed something else that they would have

21 received in normal families.

22 Q. Ms. Ibrahimefendic, if I can ask you more specifically, you've

23 had the chance now for some -- sometime since your Krstic testimony to

24 observe some of the children, their development and growth. Can you tell

25 us what, if any, impact the absence of the male population, the fathers,

Page 14655

1 the uncles, you've mentioned the brothers already, has on their

2 development?

3 A. I had occasion to follow - and I can say now that I believe the

4 basic traumatic situation is the same - but they developed in different

5 directions. I'd say that the development, in lay terms, may have

6 appeared normal. However, such children have a completely different

7 self-image and a different view of the world, as well as of the others.

8 Privately they say that they are not as worthy, that their self-esteem is

9 low. There are differences, though. Some of them are introvert and very

10 much attached to the family; whereas others are often outside the home,

11 away from the family, seeking support with others.

12 There's a number of delinquent children in such families who had

13 their family members missing. Recently we conducted research and out of

14 33 delinquent children, nine of them had previously exhibited such

15 behaviour. But when I worked with them they said, "My father had gone

16 missing, my father had been killed." It was the first problem they

17 mentioned even without me asking. The consequence of it is that it is

18 difficult to foresee. There is a number of researchers working on it,

19 some associates of mine as well. But in order to provide a broad

20 estimate that is well nigh impossible at this point in time.

21 I can cite an example. I worked with a student of electrical

22 engineering who was very young when he arrived from Srebrenica with his

23 mother and three sisters. He asked for help. He has a healthy degree of

24 humour and even very serious situations become translated into something

25 humourous by him, but he sought assistance because he had problems with

Page 14656

1 exams. Occasionally he had problems when having to take an oral exam and

2 he wondered why. Sometimes he problems with written tests, but he

3 believed that most of his peers do not have such greet fear when written

4 tests are on hand. Yet he has sweaty palms, palpitations and all that

5 when he needs to take a written test, and he failed such tests several

6 times. We had a number of sessions and at the last session he said, "I

7 am in a state of chaos and I'm well familiar with the theory of chaos."

8 I was quite puzzled and he explained to me, saying, "It is when I was

9 there, it is when I was pushed into the bus and when my mother screamed

10 from the far end of the bus, looking for me."

11 This means that in the course of my work I am still only

12 investigating. It is part of psychotherapeutic work that each patient

13 should arrive at an idea of why things are happening to him. When he

14 managed to establish this link with his past, this image that he painted

15 for me which was so convincing, the picture of this bus, the people, him

16 being in panic, he called it chaos. And I often hear it from my women

17 patients who say, "There was chaos, there was chaos." So based on that

18 example I can say so.

19 I have a number of other examples but this is the one that came

20 to mind first.

21 Q. Now, what can you tell us about the -- the desire of the children

22 or young adults, the women, to re-establish life in Srebrenica?

23 A. Their psychological problems, from their point of view, well,

24 they want to go back. They want to resume their lives there on the one

25 hand. On the other, they refuse to go back. In traumatic states, often

Page 14657

1 things are contradictory and people are always in extremes. On the one

2 hand, there's this exceptionally strong wish, whereas on the other, there

3 is much fear and resistance to going back, as if there were two people.

4 One who -- well, psychologically, one could even say there are two

5 people. One who has this enormous wish to go back to the previous life,

6 including all the people they had shared their beautiful moments with.

7 And, on the other hand, they are well aware of the situation, and the

8 other part is suffering greatly. So there's always this dis-balance or

9 imbalance, the interruption of this continuum of life in Srebrenica.

10 It was traumatic event because a trauma means discontinuation of

11 one's life. It is difficult to pick it up from where you left it. It is

12 even impossible. They need to continue leaving in the future and yet

13 their perception of time is constant. It's as if things froze back then.

14 They are alive but not with deep awareness or enjoying their lives. They

15 are living here but instead of being here, they are back there. And they

16 keep going back. And yet it's 2013. How is one to view that situation

17 from this perspective? When one thinks of 1995 or 1992, how are such

18 experiences to be integrated so as to make them a part of your life, of

19 your life experience, so that you can start anew but at the place where

20 you were born.

21 It's very difficult. And many people from Srebrenica are

22 dispersed. They only come back in summertime for vacation, and often

23 are -- we are visited by our former clients. They talk about their lives

24 in the US, in New Zealand. They do talk, but I think, except for those

25 who had truly undergone this psychotherapeutic treatment, as a person

Page 14658

1 cannot deal with a trauma of that kind alone, it can only be dealt with

2 in contact with others, through communication. So those difficult

3 emotions, those terrifying sentiments need to take shape in -- in the

4 shape of words, in hearing another person accept it. Only in such cases

5 one can expect that they would go back to the place from which they had

6 been driven away.

7 Let me add this. It is not only the case of Srebrenica. It is

8 the case with all other people who survived and left their hearths during

9 the war.

10 Q. Ms. Ibrahimefendic, I just have a couple of final questions, one

11 of which is very short. If I could ask you to briefly answer it.

12 You said -- you just testified that the women who received

13 treatment -- but there are some women who receive treatment. Can you

14 confirm whether or not there are a number of women who have not -- or

15 whether your organisation is capable of handling all of the women that

16 require treatment as a result of the Srebrenica events.

17 A. Of course not. But more and more people are being trained in the

18 community to recognise the symptoms of Srebrenica so that such trauma is

19 not denied. People now know where to send them to, where to get help.

20 Because everyone thinks trauma should be dealt with by doctors. That

21 it's a medical condition, that the post-traumatic stress disorder is a

22 psychiatric diagnosis. It's not. They're not sick. They are not

23 psychiatric patients. They have issues that can be dealt with. So the

24 organisation alone cannot cover everyone. We are increasing our

25 capacity, the volume of our work, we also train and supervise others, and

Page 14659

1 we instruct people to go to appropriate institutions.

2 Of course, many of those people do not wish to be helped, in the

3 sense that they think no one can help them.

4 Q. Finally, if I can ask you just how these women and children and

5 survivors of the Srebrenica events, how -- how have they done in the last

6 13 years based on your observations, in terms of re-establishing

7 community relationships?

8 A. In my experience, and from my point of view based on my practice

9 thus far, I could put it this way: As of 2003, when the burial of mortal

10 remains started takes place in Srebrenica, through the years, their

11 psychological situation has peaks and troughs, both psychologically and

12 physically, actually. For example, there's a period where they receive

13 notification of identification, when they go to such centres where they

14 have to identify the mortal remains or accept them as the missing person.

15 Next follows the stage of preparing for burial and then the period of

16 calming down and performing rituals. When such women come, their main

17 topic that they begin their story with is what happened in their

18 immediate family and their extended family, and they always, or for the

19 most part, talk about death.

20 Of course, there is the other part which they do not easily lend

21 to inspection that they do live, that occasionally they smile, laugh, or

22 experience joy, but everything is intermixed with death. Say, a

23 grandchild is born. They mourn because of those who are no longer

24 present, saying they could have seen this, they could have been witness

25 to it. There's always something that they miss.

Page 14660

1 I keep offering life, and they keep coming back with death, if I

2 can put it that way.

3 MS. HASAN: I have nothing further, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hasan.

5 I think the best to do would to take the break now and not start

6 cross-examination yet.

7 Ms. Ibrahimefendic, we take a break of 20 minutes. We'd like to

8 see you back after that, when the Defence will cross-examine you. You

9 may follow the usher.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00 a.m.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 [The witness takes the stand]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Ibrahimefendic, you'll now be cross-examined by

18 Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic. You'll find him to your

19 left.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Ibrahimefendic.

22 A. Good morning.

23 Q. First, I'd like to ask you the following: Did the Prosecution of

24 this Tribunal ask that you draft a written expert report for the needs of

25 this case, about the matters you are to testify to today?

Page 14661

1 A. No.

2 Q. Nor were you asked to produce a report for the Tolimir case and

3 your testimony there.

4 A. No.

5 Q. Would you be prepared to draft a written report?

6 A. To tell you the truth, I don't see what the purpose of it would

7 be. I think I've provided sufficient information through my testimony.

8 It would need a thorough explanation, in terms of why it is needed, to

9 what end, for whom, et cetera.

10 Q. Thank you. If it were explained to you, you would be prepared to

11 draft such a report; correct?

12 A. I would gladly accept to draft a report together with my

13 colleagues so that it would be a report produced by the Vive Zene

14 Therapeutic Centre. I would rather accept that than working on my own.

15 I'm a member of a multi-disciplinary team. Each team member, including

16 the physician, the psychologist, the pedagogue, they all have a role to

17 play, and that is why I would be more inclined to accept an assignment of

18 that nature, in that capacity.

19 Q. Thank you. The way I understand your words is that you think you

20 alone would not be able to explain the situation in totality.

21 A. It's not that. I could explain the total situation, and I would

22 provide my opinion based on my experience and work. But, in order for it

23 to be a report covering several dimensions, it would take team approach.

24 My role would be the greatest, I believe, but I would still prefer it to

25 be a multi-disciplinary approach.

Page 14662

1 Trauma which follows disasters caused by people is a complicated

2 process which requires including as many professionals as possible to

3 have a total picture of all events and processes taking place at an

4 individual, group, ethnic, and community level. I believe it would be of

5 great assistance to the Tribunal.

6 Q. Very well. Thank you. Your testimony in the Krstic case was

7 applicable in the circumstances 13 years ago, but one cannot say today

8 that the situation is the same as back then. Would you agree with me?

9 A. I would agree with you, in the sense of individual suffering, but

10 not in any other sense because the time that has elapsed created

11 different problems. We are talking about traumatised people here, and we

12 can't view it all as a single event which took place. What follows is

13 very important.

14 Q. That's precisely the thrust of my question.

15 A. So what follows, all the consequences that are --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I stop you for a second.

17 Mr. Lukic, I would say 80 per cent of the examination-in-chief

18 was about what has changed since 2000. Now, what's the use of asking

19 whether anything has been changed? If you have any focussed question,

20 fine. But it's just more or less ignoring what the witness testified

21 about, that a lot of things have changed, and how they changed, and that

22 apparently was part of the focus of the additional questions.

23 So if you have any focussed question on the changes, fine. But

24 to ask whether something changed, that is, I would say, obvious from the

25 examination-in-chief.

Page 14663

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. LUKIC: If I may, Your Honour, just to explain why I asked

3 this question is that because this testimony from Krstic case should be

4 expert analysis in this case if it -- and you are going to decide about

5 the -- that expertise at the end of this testimony. So that's why I'm

6 asking, is that testimony from Krstic case still valid today.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you asked whether anything had changed, and

8 things have changed. If you have any specific questions, no problems,

9 Mr. Lukic, but don't ask a question for which we have heard the answer in

10 approximately 35 to 40 minutes.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Q. [Interpretation] In the Krstic case, madam, you testified that at

14 Srebrenica, Potocari, boys were separated from women. The age of the

15 boys was, for example, 10 years. How many boys from 10 to 16 years were

16 separated from their mothers?

17 A. I have no relevant information. I only worked with some who said

18 that they had been separated but, otherwise, I can't answer the question.

19 Q. Do you have information about boys of that age who moved with the

20 armed column?

21 A. No, I don't have such information.

22 Q. At the Krstic trial, you mentioned the impossibility to return to

23 Srebrenica, and you mentioned that today as well. Is the situation

24 different nowadays?

25 A. Speaking about return, I used that term in the psychological

Page 14664

1 sense. All those who want to return are in a dilemma. They are at a

2 cross-roads. They both want to return and don't want to return. To me,

3 that psychological thing is more of a problem than reconstructing houses

4 and so on.

5 Q. However, return is a very exact notion; right? If a person has

6 returned and lives there, psychology doesn't have much to do with that.

7 Let me ask you: Who is in power at Srebrenica today?

8 A. To the extent I follow the media, the deputy head of municipality

9 is a Bosniak. But he doesn't provide psychological certainty or that

10 they can return. Maybe in reality things are safe, but inside these

11 people are -- are uncertain. They feel unsafe.

12 Q. Would you agree with me that the majority population at

13 Srebrenica nowadays is Bosniak?

14 A. I really don't know the population structure at Srebrenica. I

15 don't even know how many people there are.

16 I -- in my work, and in our work, such information is not

17 required. We don't need to know how many people live in a municipality.

18 We don't rely on statistical data.

19 Q. Is it normal and acceptable that life in Tuzla provides better

20 opportunities for work and education and could that be a reason why many

21 people aren't returning?

22 A. If I look at that from a different angle, I cannot agree with you

23 that opportunities are the reason, because there are schools and

24 university and roads. Because you must bear in mind that nobody will

25 gladly return to a place where they experienced fear.

Page 14665

1 Normal people who had an accident do not like to go near that

2 place where we were helpless and weak. I think that people have

3 permanent traumatic memories. I know a number of people who returned,

4 including Serbs, who used not to live at Srebrenica but now do. I know

5 what they went through to be able to accept the fact that they now live

6 at Srebrenica, and they are going through all the phases of adapting and

7 so on. And it's a big difference -- there's a big difference between

8 living in Sarajevo and living in Srebrenica.

9 Q. Is the fact that they started a life elsewhere, found a place to

10 live and a job, that their children are going to school, a reason for not

11 returning to Srebrenica?

12 A. That is a reason why some people don't return from exile or from

13 other countries. But working with these people - and I had the

14 opportunity to speak to some people who live in Sweden and have

15 everything there that's required for a normal life - but one part of

16 their identity constantly suffers. They cannot forget their previous

17 identity, and it's difficult for them to integrate in the new

18 surroundings.

19 Q. Now that we're talking about this, isn't that characteristic of

20 anybody who goes to another country to live there, nostalgia?

21 A. Yes. There is nostalgia but nobody is a refugee of their own

22 free will. Becoming a refugee is preceded by trauma. Somebody who

23 decides to go to another country has the feeling that they have control

24 over their own life, that it was their choice, and anybody else then has

25 the full right to tell such a person, "Yeah, you've got to cope with

Page 14666

1 that. It was your decision." But you cannot compare that with trauma

2 because there was no free choice.

3 Q. Did you conduct research into the differences between persons who

4 are refugees from Sarajevo and others who are refugees from Srebrenica

5 but live in the same country, such as Sweden?

6 A. No. No, but I'm sure that both suffer, in a way.

7 Q. Thank you. Is it also true that there are differences within

8 families as to the decision whether they should return or not? Somebody

9 is for and somebody is against.

10 A. Yes. There are discussions in many families, the older family

11 members and the younger family members. Mostly it's the older ones that

12 want to return, but sometimes the younger ones as well. And that can be

13 a source of conflict within the family.

14 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me that sociological problems

15 affect the issue of return greatly, such as no job opportunities, the

16 impossibility to make a living?

17 A. Yes, I agree with you. But let me add that if we look at trauma

18 as a process, this sequence, which is a transitional sequence, to call it

19 that, is also characterised by unemployment and shortage of the things

20 you need for life. That is also part of the definition of trauma. In a

21 BH context, apart from expulsion camps, there are also such things as

22 unemployment and uncertainty that are part of trauma, that make up

23 trauma.

24 Q. I believe you understand that I'm pausing to let the interpreters

25 do their job.

Page 14667

1 A. Yes, of course.

2 Q. War as a sociological and psychological concept has many negative

3 aspects; right?

4 A. I would like to add that war causes extreme traumatic

5 experiences, extreme fear. It is something out of the ordinary.

6 Q. Would you also agree that nobody, even if they don't take part in

7 combat directly, are -- is -- is spared from trauma?

8 A. Yes, I agree. Observers, lookers-on also have traumatic

9 symptoms.

10 Q. Prolonged psychological trauma is a condition in which the entire

11 population of Bosnia-Herzegovina was in the first half of the 1990s. Do

12 you agree with that?

13 A. Yes. Somebody more, somebody less. But if we speak about

14 Srebrenica, we can speak about cumulative traumatisation.

15 Q. Would you agree that the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, while it was

16 ongoing, gave rise to a lot of hatred among all three peoples?

17 A. Yes, I would.

18 Q. Speaking to your patients, did you find out that hatred was

19 fertile soil for thoughts of vengeance in the BH population?

20 A. I initially didn't call that hatred because that's an emotion

21 which involves a particular type of expression. I saw it more as

22 passion. People feeling passion for their own ethnicity. It was all

23 along the lines: We are one thing, and they are another.

24 There's a clear-cut line of division. Prejudice had existed from

25 before, and that's how huge fear was created. And when people are in

Page 14668

1 fear, they are bound to do things they would never do in a normal,

2 relaxed condition.

3 Q. Talking to your patients, did you hear them speaking about

4 vindictive behaviour on the part of the Serbs against the Muslim

5 population of Srebrenica?

6 A. No. It's very interesting that this concept of vengeance or

7 retaliation was mentioned very rarely. Perhaps because people really

8 don't felt [as interpreted] that way, or because they felt that it was

9 part of their silence and an individual thing.

10 Q. Speaking to people - probably mostly to women and children - did

11 you learn why the men decided to break through from Srebrenica instead of

12 surrendering, to try to break through a rather large territory controlled

13 by the VRS? Were they -- did they take that decision out of fear?

14 A. I believe that's a question burdening the women too, and -- all

15 those who survived. They described the situation as extremely chaotic,

16 that there was disarray and confusion. People were fleeing toward the

17 UNPROFOR base, expecting protection and help, but no help ever arrived.

18 And these are questions still burdening them.

19 I personally have been unable to get a clear picture of the

20 events. One woman said to me, "This one said this, and then we went

21 there, and then we went to another place," and so on. People were out of

22 their minds. They were beside themselves for fear, and then they make

23 choices that may or may not be right. But, at that given moment, they

24 were the most acceptable to their minds.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask for a clarification.

Page 14669

1 The question was about whether, in your conversations with the

2 women and children, you learned why the men, as Mr. Lukic put it, decided

3 to break through rather than to surrender.

4 In your answer, it's not quite clear to me whether you're

5 describing decisions taken by the women and the children or whether your

6 answer is specifically focussing on the decision taken by the men.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It happened in conversation with

8 them, and I can't say the decision was taken this or that way, but most

9 of the women were told, "You go towards Potocari, and we will take to the

10 forest. We'll meet up in Tuzla." I don't know how this all sounds to

11 others now; but, for me, it sounded like it was - how should I put it? -

12 it wasn't a decision-making process. It was made amidst the chaos. They

13 just said, "You go to Potocari, we take to the forest, and we'll meet up

14 in Tuzla."

15 That sentence was frequently used, and it remains etched in my

16 memory. Tuzla was supposed to the place where they would reunite, when

17 they were bidding farewell, where they separated, it was said so. Some

18 people -- some men decided to accompany their women to Potocari because

19 they so decided. And yet some women wanted to go to the forest and were

20 told, "You're a woman. Why would you want to come with us?"

21 That's all I want -- I can say.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So you don't have an answer to the why of that

23 decision. You even doubt whether these were real decisions.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 14670

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. Perhaps I may add this. They said that their husbands were very

3 frightened and that they did not wish to remain in Srebrenica. They only

4 wanted to flee.

5 Q. With this addition, when you say that the men were frightened,

6 let me go back to my question.

7 Did they tell you that their husbands were fearful of acts of

8 revenge? Why were they fearful?

9 A. Well, that can come into play. They may have been afraid of

10 that. And there was another sentence that was used: They did not want

11 to fall to Serb hands. That's what they said.

12 Q. In such conversations with them, trying to understand this fear

13 by men of being in the Serb hands, did you touch upon the topic of the

14 28th Division and the massacres of Serb civilians which took place

15 outside Srebrenica? Did you come across that in your trying to

16 understand the process?

17 A. No, I did not touch upon that topic. The only thing that I

18 personally touched upon was when I worked with a group of women whose

19 husbands were in Srebrenica and they were in Tuzla. As early as 1993, it

20 was UNPROFOR or someone else who transported them to Tuzla, so they were

21 in Tuzla and the men were in Srebrenica. During that period, I had group

22 discussions with the women twice a week. I had never gone to Srebrenica

23 before. They told me of the news they received via ham radio operators

24 that some points that were Dutch-held fell into Serb hands, they

25 mentioned Zeleni Jadar, and then they said that DutchBat withdrew from

Page 14671

1 Jadar. They also said that there were only 5 kilometres left between

2 Jadar and Srebrenica. And then they were informed that another Dutch

3 point fell. And then they said Srebrenica fell.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I stop you for a second.

5 The question was whether, in your conversations, whether the

6 topic of the 28th Division and massacres of Serb civilians was touched

7 upon. Now you said: "No, I did not touch upon that topic."

8 First of all, are you aware of what the 28th Division is?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I don't. I -- no. The

10 28th Division? I only learned of that name rather recently, although I

11 can't recall when exactly. I was unaware of the existence of the

12 28th Division.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic. And let's try to -- we'd

14 like to receive focussed answers on the questions that were put to you.

15 The question was not about what was Dutch-held or how the fall of

16 Srebrenica developed but it was about your knowledge on the basis of your

17 conversations about the 28th Division and massacres against Serbs.

18 Now, you have answered the question, in terms of the

19 28th Division, not being aware of that. Do you know anything about

20 massacres against Serbs which had taken place?

21 Mr. Lukic, I take it, close to Srebrenica. That's what you were

22 focussing on.

23 Were you aware of massacres of Serbs or Serbian population of

24 villages close to Srebrenica before Srebrenica fell?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I learned of it later. I was

Page 14672

1 unaware of it before Srebrenica fell.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Did it play any role in your conversations with the

3 women and the children?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a bit. Because I put

5 questions concerning the massacres that took place so that I would gain a

6 better picture of everything that went on there and so that I could

7 intervene in trying to put a realistic picture before them so that they

8 could accept it too. But I only learned of this after Srebrenica had

9 fallen, after such discussions with the women.

10 JUDGE ORIE: What did they tell you about those massacres?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part, as far as I

12 remember, they -- when they mentioned the massacres, they said they had

13 gone there for food and that it was the main reason why they went to the

14 neighbouring places, especially Kravica.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Does that mean that they denied that massacres had

16 taken place? Or -- I mean, going somewhere for food, in the context of

17 massacres, needs further explanation.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The women did not deny that in

19 conversations. They did say it happened but that they were unaware of

20 particular numbers or of how many. I asked whether there were murders.

21 They said there were but they didn't know how many.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. I will leave this topic, madam.

25 I want to ask you something about your therapy.

Page 14673

1 First of all, I'd like to ask you this: Would you agree with me

2 that your therapeutic sessions helped those who turned to you for help a

3 lot?

4 A. Yes, they did. The therapy helped so that the people could

5 become more stable so that they could get in touch with themselves, to

6 accept the situation, adapt to the new conditions, and become more

7 resilient.

8 Q. Is it correct that you had much success in treating children too?

9 A. Yes. We also have a colleague, a lady colleague, who worked a

10 lot with the children, as well as pedagogues, who worked with groups of

11 children.

12 Q. Would you agree that those who turned for assistance to you are

13 in a much better situation today than they had been in ten or 13 years

14 ago?

15 A. I agree. Many women developed a range of abilities to be able to

16 cope with the problems that life put before them.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm -- your question was about comparing

18 them immediately after the events, compared to now; or was it about

19 before the events comparing with now?

20 MR. LUKIC: I was trying to compare with the time when this lady

21 testified in Krstic case.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, then it's clear. And I think I

23 understand the answer in that context.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

Page 14674

1 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Ibrahimefendic, you mentioned a moment ago

2 some problems. Would you agree that the community needs to provide work,

3 that the political situation needs to become stable? In other words, do

4 social issues deepen the basic problem with the Srebrenica population? A

5 moment ago, you touched upon that topic, but I don't think you have

6 concluded.

7 A. I agree, because treating traumatised persons does not begin with

8 or end in the room with the therapist. If an individual is made more

9 resilient, and if they go through their community where they lack the

10 basic means for life, then the psychological help is not as important

11 because other needs need to be met: Social, material, financial, and

12 other needs of the victims. Treating trauma, unfortunately, is still not

13 seen in our parts as a health problem only. It's also a social, legal,

14 economical problem, and all that is required in order to achieve

15 recovery.

16 Q. Thank you. Would you agree that the suffering of these women is

17 made greater by the patriarchal environment they hailed from and that

18 they would have fared much better in coping with it had they come from

19 urban environments where women live under different circumstances and

20 have their professions, occupations?

21 A. Trauma affects everyone equally. It's a psychological breakdown,

22 and recovery is individual. It depends on the resources owned by every

23 individual separately. It depends on their life before the war, depends

24 on their capacity or ability acquired prior to the trauma.

25 Recovery, even of educated people, can be very difficult at times

Page 14675

1 if their personal capacity was insufficient to adapt or to cope with such

2 difficult traumatic experiences. Of course, it's easier if one has a

3 profession and if the working part of their personality is re-established

4 and social links with others are established. Then recovery is quicker.

5 But there are educated people who still have problems establishing social

6 ties with others because they had been disrupted. They are full of

7 suspicion, constantly on standby as if standing guard. Irrespective of

8 their level of education, they still share some symptoms which prevent

9 them from being relaxed and feeling free.

10 Q. In your testimony, you also discussed the inability of these

11 women to remarry. Is it correct that the patriarchal environment that

12 they live in has a bearing on that? And is it also true that, in Bosnia,

13 after the war, there's a chronic lack of males who had either died in the

14 war or left Bosnia after the war?

15 A. That is correct. I said so in 2000. The issue of remarriage is

16 something that can exist even without the war. The war only further

17 complicates the situation, the situation of the shortage of men. With

18 women who have missing family members, they had the problem of finding

19 husbands because they ask, "What am I? I'm not -- I am a widow but I had

20 not been divorced. What am I?"

21 So until their missing are found and identified, the patriarchal

22 surroundings disapproved of such women entering another marriage or

23 establishing similar ties.

24 Q. I actually put two questions in one and the latter part remains

25 unanswered. I was supposed to separate the two.

Page 14676

1 Is it correct that in Bosnia there's a chronic shortage of males,

2 be it because they died in the war or moved out of Bosnia?

3 A. Statistics show that there are far more women than men, yes.

4 Q. Would you agree with me that grief because of a lost family

5 member is universal and applies to all of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. Yes. I agree fully.

7 Q. You spoke to us about traumatic loss, about it being different

8 from a loss that is expected or normal, such as the natural death of a

9 parent. Would you agree with me that the loss of a child in peacetime is

10 also traumatic loss?

11 A. Yes. The loss of a child in peacetime is also a traumatic loss.

12 Q. Do you agree with me that even such traumatic losses produce

13 post-traumatic effects and can continue throughout a person's life?

14 A. Yes. Certainly the consequences of the loss of a child, both at

15 war and in peace, can cause great differences, can bring about

16 significant differences in the life of a parent or both parents because

17 men and women cope with loss differently. This could be observed during

18 the war too. They both mourn but they display their mourning and their

19 grief differently. So that the loss of a child, both in war and in

20 peace, can cause problems in the relationship between spouses.

21 This, of course, applies to all children who were born and who

22 live in that family, and that can affect the rest of one's life.

23 Q. The cases of a breakup of a family after such loss are not rare,

24 are they?

25 A. No, they are not.

Page 14677

1 Q. Let me now go into the results of your research.

2 Is it true that the results of your research are mostly

3 qualitative rather than quantitative in nature?

4 A. Yes. But we also rely on the research made by our colleagues

5 because research is also very expensive and time-consuming, so we rely on

6 quantitative research of our psychiatrist colleagues, both from

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina and from other countries.

8 Q. Your research that is quantified is -- is mostly linked to

9 juvenile delinquency; right?

10 A. No, that is only one part of it. That research is drawing to an

11 end already. We are co-operating with three faculties from Tuzla and the

12 Basel university. It is research into the occurrence of juvenile

13 delinquency in connection with war-time events.

14 Q. You are familiar with the Keilson model of sequential trauma as

15 developed by Dr. Baker?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. For the record, it is sequential trauma.

18 A. Yes. He developed a model for Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he's our

19 tutor, supervisor.

20 Q. The first sequence is the pre-traumatic situation, that is, the

21 pre-refugee status at pre-war times while the person lives a normal life;

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. This is necessary for us to understand the differences as

25 compared to the following period.

Page 14678

1 A. Yes. Because if people had -- were exposed to traumatic events

2 before the war, we can assume that they will behave differently in war

3 than if -- than if they hadn't had these traumas, which either make them

4 stronger or weaker.

5 Q. Did you have professional contacts with the population of

6 Srebrenica before July 1995?

7 A. No. It is, however, important to know all stages of a patient's

8 life, from childhood until the traumatic event, or events, that left

9 their imprint or broke -- broke the patient. So that you get a complete

10 image of that person's life ... and for that person to be able to view

11 him or herself in continuity.

12 Q. Is it true that you didn't have any control groups to establish

13 the emotional, cognitive, mental, and interpersonal disturbances

14 traumatised people have when compared to those that were not traumatised?

15 A. No, our team didn't do that, but we relied on the research done

16 by other colleagues who compared persons who have a family member missing

17 and those that don't. There were also persons who found a dead family

18 member and were able to bury him and those that weren't able to. The

19 latter were much more anxious. They were susceptible to panic. They had

20 obsessive syndromes and so on. This research was done last year by a

21 psychiatrist colleague of ours, and we were involved in a way. We

22 processed her information, her input, but she conducted the research

23 basically.

24 Q. Now we've dug too deeply into your area of expertise. I will try

25 to get out because I'm not comfortable there. But it's time for a pause

Page 14679

1 anyway, so we will continue after it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take the break, Mr. Lukic, your previous

3 question referred to persons, people traumatised compared to those who

4 were not traumatised.

5 Now we have been talking about trauma prior to the events in

6 July 1995, and we have spoken about the traumas which were inflicted or

7 occurred as a result of that. I understand the answer to the question

8 such that the question was understood as more or less trauma as a result

9 of the events; that is, with or without missing family members.

10 Did you intend to compare the various levels of traumatisation as

11 a result of the events in 1995; or were you asking about possible

12 existing trauma already at that moment due to prior events?

13 MR. LUKIC: We established already that there was nobody in

14 Bosnia at that time who was not traumatised, whether directly involved in

15 the conflict or not.

16 I think that Mrs. Ibrahimefendic understood me correctly. And I

17 was trying to compare, to ask about two groups, a group from Srebrenica

18 that was traumatised, and whether she compared those traumas with the

19 population that was general population in Tuzla.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just re-read.

21 At the same time, you say that everyone in Bosnia suffered

22 trauma. So then to ask about comparison between those traumatised and

23 those not traumatised, apparently you wanted to ask and that perhaps is

24 the way in which --

25 MR. LUKIC: Less traumatised.

Page 14699

1 Most of the shrapnel wounds were sustained by victims recovered from the

2 Zeleni Jadar secondary mass grave-site.

3 During autopsy, Dr. Lawrence and his team retrieved 83 ligatures

4 and 103 blindfolds. Most ligatures were tied around victims' wrists and

5 arms. In many cases, blindfolds were found in position, covering the

6 eyes of victims.

7 And this concludes my summary.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. If you have any further questions for

9 the witness you may proceed.

10 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Q. Dr. Lawrence, before I begin my questions, I see that you have

12 brought some documents with you today. Could you describe to us what

13 they are.

14 A. Yes. They are copies of the reports that I prepared for the ICTY

15 on the eight sites were examined and a summary document of the findings

16 that I prepared for the Krstic trial.

17 Q. And if you wish to refer to these documents, please do so, but if

18 you are referring to them, please let us know and let us know what you're

19 referring to.

20 A. Thank you.

21 Q. Dr. Lawrence, since your last testimony in the Karadzic in

22 December of 2011, are you at the same job?

23 A. Yes, I'm still the state forensic pathologist for Tasmania.

24 Q. And how long have you been there?

25 A. Since 2002.

Page 14700

1 Q. And if you could describe to us very generally what your

2 responsibilities are?

3 A. My responsibilities as a state forensic pathologist are to carry

4 out an autopsy service for the -- for the state coroner of Tasmania, to

5 attend the scene of suspicious deaths, to advise the police on

6 investigation of deaths, and to prepare reports on the deaths for the

7 coroner, to prepare reports on suspicious cases for the courts, to -- and

8 also to work on cases for the coroner in relation to deaths in hospitals.

9 Q. Now, we mentioned a few minutes ago that you testified before

10 this Tribunal in the Krstic and the Karadzic case.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Have you -- did you testify as an expert in any other case?

13 A. Yes. In -- in Popovic and Tolimir.

14 Q. And have you testified as an expert anywhere --

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would ask that the speakers

16 please slow down.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And make a pause between question and answer and

18 between answer and question.

19 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honours.

20 Q. Have you testified as an expert witness in any other

21 jurisdictions?

22 A. Yes. I have testified -- sorry.

23 Yes, I have testified as an expert witness in Australia and in

24 the United States.

25 Q. And in what area of expertise or discipline did you testify as an

Page 14701

1 expert witness?

2 A. As a forensic pathologist.

3 Q. And on how many occasions, approximately, did you testify as an

4 expert witness?

5 A. Probably somewhere between 50 and 100 times.

6 Q. Now, there is -- I'd like to ask you specific -- just a specific

7 question relating to one particular case and this is R. versus

8 Jeffrey Gilham.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What was your involvement in that case?

11 A. This -- sorry. This was a case that I examined in 1993. It was

12 a triple homicide in which three people had been stabbed to death and the

13 house had been burned.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Before you continue, Ms. Lee, the Chamber is

15 wondering why these details are relevant. Of course, the Chamber has no

16 knowledge about this case, et cetera. And ...

17 MS. LEE: The -- I will be asking this witness about -- he had

18 testified as an expert witness and we will get to that point very

19 shortly.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, of course, we are wondering why 50 to

21 100 testimonies are not sufficient information. Why we need go into the

22 details of one case. But if you have any good reason, immediately go to

23 that point, and -- I mean, the circumstances of that case seems not to be

24 very relevant for us at this moment, unless, by your questioning, it

25 becomes relevant.

Page 14702

1 MS. LEE: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Q. Now, Dr. Lawrence, in this case, did any issue arise as concerns

3 to your evidence in that case?

4 A. Yes, it did. Sorry. Yes, it did. This was a complex case and

5 had gone to -- to inquests to two trials and an appeal. Now the appeal

6 was heard shortly before I gave evidence in the Karadzic trial. And the

7 significance for the Court is that in the appeal it became clear to me

8 that I had made an error in my assessment of the significance of some

9 evidence in relation to a low level of carbon monoxide.

10 JUDGE ORIE: If you wanted to point that the expert witness is

11 not a man without any failure in his life, then that has become clear.

12 MS. LEE: Great. Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Q. Moving into a different area, I would like to now ask you about

14 your involvement in Bosnia in 1998.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Your chief -- you were the chief pathologist for the OTP at the

17 ICTY; correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. And what is it that you were tasked to do?

20 A. I was tasked to run a mortuary to carry out autopsies on the

21 bodies that were exhumed by the exhumation team in 1998, to ascertain the

22 cause of death and, where possible, to collect evidence to identify the

23 individuals.

24 Q. And what were your main responsibilities? Did you have any

25 supervisory role?

Page 14703

1 A. Yes. I supervised the team at the mortuary. I instructed the

2 pathologists. I reviewed the reports, and I prepared summary reports on

3 the cases that were found. In addition, I carried out quite a number of

4 the autopsies.

5 Q. And you just testified that you reviewed the reports. Whose

6 reports were they?

7 A. I reviewed a number of reports, the reports by the doctors and to

8 some degree the reports of the anthropologists.

9 Q. And by "doctors," you mean other pathologists?

10 A. The other pathologists, yes.

11 Q. So you just mentioned reports. Did you yourself write any

12 reports?

13 A. Yes. I prepared the eight reports that I have with me today.

14 Q. And these eight reports, they relate to each grave-sites?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And they're namely the dam; the Cancari Road 3; Cancari Road 12;

17 Hodzici Road 3, 4, 5; Zeleni Jadar 5; and Liplje 2?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Did you write any reports relating to these sites?

20 A. As a consequence of our work at Cancari Road 3, we became aware

21 that there may be a primary site at Kozluk. And at the end of

22 September or perhaps early October, I attended a scene at Kozluk where we

23 recovered a number of -- of two body bags of skeletal remains. And I

24 prepared a report, a one-page report in response to that. I also

25 prepared a report on some ligatures that had been recovered from the

Page 14704

1 graves and had been sent to The Hague which had not examined in the

2 mortuary.

3 Q. And did have you the opportunity review each of these reports

4 that you prepared in relation to the Srebrenica events before testifying

5 here today?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. And do you still stand by the analysis and conclusions that you

8 reached in those reports?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I would like to tender these 11 reports,

11 pursuant to Rule 94 bis.

12 MR. IVETIC: No objection.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please reserve 11 numbers

14 and make a memo describing the 65 ter numbers, the short name of the

15 report, and the numbers to be assigned. All 11 reports are admitted into

16 evidence under the numbers Madam Registrar will assign in this memo.

17 MS. LEE: And may I read out the 65 ter numbers for the record,

18 Your Honour.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: If you would please verify the list made by

21 Madam Registrar, because I think they are on our list already so they

22 don't have to be read out again. They're all in sequential order so if

23 you would say the first and the last.

24 MS. LEE: Yes. It goes from 04576 until 04584, and then there

25 are two additional --

Page 14705

1 JUDGE ORIE: As appearing on this list.

2 MS. LEE: On the list, yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And two additional ones are?

4 MS. LEE: 11038 and 11039.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They're the first two on the non-associated

6 exhibits list. Madam Registrar will prepare the memo.

7 Please proceed.

8 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Q. Dr. Lawrence, in your reports, you determine a cause of death for

10 each reported body bags as opposed to individual bodies, and can you

11 briefly explain to us why they are assigned to body bags?

12 A. Yes. The bodies that we were dealing with were largely recovered

13 from secondary graves and in some of the graves, the bodies were not only

14 significantly decomposed but also quite significantly disrupted.

15 The consequence of this was that the -- it was not possible to examine

16 entire bodies in -- in many cases. Some of the sites, for example,

17 Hodzici 5, the bodies were quite well preserved, but in others, for

18 example, the dam site or Liplje, the bodies were extremely disrupted. We

19 therefore had to make an assessment about, did we provide only reports

20 for entire bodies or did we provide reports for the entire bodies and the

21 body bags.

22 I made a decision to examine the body bags and the whole bodies,

23 in order to record as much information as I could. This decision made

24 some problems, because, obviously, incomplete bodies that cannot be

25 linked to each other does raise the possibility that you might have

Page 14706

1 multiple causes of death for one body. But I felt in the circumstances

2 that it was important to document as many cases of gun-shot wounds as we

3 could, given that the evidence that we were receiving from the clothing

4 was that there were probably more gun-shot wounds than we were seeing.

5 In the end, we mostly concentrated our efforts on the whole

6 bodies because this was the most meaningful information, and the causes

7 of death in the 254 intact bodies were probably the most useful pieces of

8 information. But the problem was in many of the sites, and the dam site

9 and Liplje particularly, there was so much damage that we were dealing

10 with almost no intact bodies.

11 Q. Thank you. Moving to a different area, your reports mention

12 blindfolds and ligatures.

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter number 0 -- it's 65 ter number

15 04581. And this is -- at page 18. And this is Dr. Lawrence's report on

16 the Hodzici Road 4 site.

17 I believe we're having some technical difficulties.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think we have.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The uploading of photographs takes some time.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Especially if they are in large series.

21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22 JUDGE ORIE: And Madam Registrar adds that the computer is slow

23 anyhow today. Maybe due to the weather.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: We're slowly getting to it.

Page 14707

1 MS. LEE:

2 Q. Dr. Lawrence, can you please describe to us what you see on this

3 picture on your screen.

4 A. Yes. What you can see underneath the hand is the top part of a

5 skull with a blindfold around the skull.

6 Now, I should point out that this skull has been reconstructed

7 and the blindfold has been positioned there after the skull has been

8 reconstructed. But you can see where the arrow is, there is a gun-shot

9 wound in the left temple region and there is a corresponding defect in

10 the blindfold, indicating that the blindfold was at that position when

11 the gun-shot wound [sic] was fired.

12 Q. And when you say the skull has been reconstructed, who

13 reconstructed the skull?

14 A. The skull was reconstructed by the anthropologists from the

15 fragments of bone.

16 JUDGE ORIE: This is the reconstruction and the glue, everything

17 is in the -- already admitted testimony, Ms. Lee.

18 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honours.

19 Q. Dr. Lawrence, you previously testified about the difference

20 between probable, possible, and definite gun-shot wounds. And I'm

21 referring to -- I'm referring to P1802 at pages 6 to 9 in e-court.

22 Now, how would you define the injuries shown here?

23 A. Well, the injuries shown in this one, I would say this is a

24 definite gun-shot wound.

25 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter number 04582 at page 18.

Page 14708

1 Q. And while this picture is loading, I would like to ask you, you

2 also talk about ligatures that were found in the grave-sites?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what types of ligatures --

5 A. There were --

6 Q. -- did you find?

7 A. There were a number of different types of ligatures found. There

8 tended to be particular types of ligatures found in particular graves but

9 the ligatures included ligatures made from twine, ligatures that were

10 made from a white fabric with an embroidered flower on them, white cloth,

11 and a fabric which had coloured lines on it.

12 MS. LEE: And if I could actually have page 16 of this document.

13 Q. Doctor, can you describe us what you see on the screen.

14 A. Yes. What you can see on the screen is a fairly intact body,

15 which is lying on its back. At the bottom, you can see the belt, which

16 is slightly pulled down. Above that, you can see the hands, and the

17 hands are secured with a cord ligature. And on the wrist, you can see a

18 watch, a Seiko self-winding watch.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Your description now is not the same as appears in

20 the text below the -- could you please read that and see which of the

21 two ...

22 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said the body is lying on its back.

24 THE WITNESS: Sorry, sorry. The body is lying on its front. You

25 can see the back. I apologise.

Page 14709

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

3 MS. LEE:

4 Q. And what would you say the -- would you be able to determine the

5 cause of death in this situation?

6 A. This one, there were gun-shot wounds in the right pelvis and

7 bullet fragments in the right and left knees -- right and left thighs and

8 knees. I'd need to refer -- for this specific case, I would need to

9 refer to my list to ascertain it, but I would assume it would probably be

10 given as cause of death.

11 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter number 4578, at page 30 in

12 e-court.

13 Q. And in terms of ligatures found, you had listed a number of

14 ligatures --

15 MS. LEE: It's page 30. It's the following page.

16 Q. Dr. Lawrence, you've mentioned different ligatures, and you had

17 mentioned that you had written two reports on it.

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Do you recognise this ligature?

20 A. Yes. These are the white ligatures with the embroidered flower

21 and leaf on them. And these were seen in CR12 and CR13.

22 Q. Is it CR13?

23 A. Sorry, CR12 and CR3, sorry.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MS. LEE: Your Honours, for your reference, this particular

Page 14710

1 ligature is also referenced in P1771 at e-court page 29, which was a

2 report that was tendered through the textile expert Suzanna Maljaars, who

3 previously testified earlier this week.

4 And may I please have page 35 of the same document.

5 Q. And while the document is being uploaded, Dr. Lawrence, did you

6 observe any bodies that had both blindfolds and ligatures?

7 A. Yes. There were two bodies in CR12 that had both blindfolds and

8 ligatures. They were body bag -- they were bodies 116 and body 121.

9 Q. And can you -- looking at the picture in front of you, can you

10 please describe to us what you see here.

11 A. This photograph shows the -- the skin from the right temple and

12 there is in fact a bullet-hole between the fingers there which was also

13 present in the blindfold.

14 Q. Now, you've previously testified about -- actually, in this case

15 like this, what would you determine this cause -- is this a case where

16 you would be able to determine the cause of injury?

17 A. Yes. A gun-shot wound in the head is going to kill you.

18 Q. And is this a definite gun-shot wound?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And, Dr. Lawrence, you have also testified about possible or

21 probable cause of death and definite cause of death, and this is in

22 relation to P1802 at pages 9 and 10.

23 In this case, is this a case where a definite cause of death

24 could be established?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14711

1 MS. LEE: I have no further questions, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Lee.

3 Mr. Lawrence, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Ivetic.

4 Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.

5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

7 Q. Dr. Lawrence, before we begin with my questions, I would like to

8 again remind you and caution you that since we both speak the same

9 language, we have to try and observe a pause between my question and your

10 answer to allow the other persons in this courtroom to do their job.

11 Is that fair, sir?

12 A. I will try to.

13 Q. Am I correct that in addition to your medical training and degree

14 you also studied law after becoming a forensic pathologist?

15 A. I studied law while I was becoming a pathologist, but I did not

16 complete my training.

17 Q. And in relation to your testimony that you have provided for us

18 here and in the reports that you authored for purposes of reporting the

19 work you did in Bosnia, did you wear an attorney hat at all or was this

20 exclusively your medical forensic pathologist hat that you were reporting

21 under?

22 A. I do not profess to a be lawyer. I am forensic pathologist.

23 Q. Thank you. And am I also correct that at some point in time you

24 did take, I think, two courses, one in the US, in forensic anthropology;

25 is that right?

Page 14712

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. I take it that this participation in two courses did not result

3 in any earned degree in forensic anthropology; is that correct?

4 A. No. I would regard myself as a forensic pathologist with an

5 interest in forensic anthropology, not a forensic anthropologist

6 [Realtime transcript read in error "pathologist"].

7 Q. Okay. Thank you. And now, Doctor, I don't want you to take this

8 the wrong way insofar as it's not intended to --

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I interrupt for a moment. There's a wrong

10 entry in the transcript at line 11. "Not a forensic anthropologist," you

11 said, I think.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Now, again, Doctor, I don't want you to take this the wrong way.

15 It is not meant as a criticism of you, but in fact, being the state

16 forensic pathologist for Tasmania, are you also the only forensic

17 pathologist in Tasmania?

18 A. No. There is it a second forensic pathologist who also trained

19 at the office of the medical investigator in the United States.

20 Q. And would that be the individual that you recruited about -- a

21 couple years ago?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, am I correct that generally speaking in the field of work of

24 forensic review of mortal remains, anthropologists usually have more of a

25 role as to remains that are fully skeletonised, whereas a forensic

Page 14713

1 pathologist would have more of a role where the remains have soft tissue

2 present?

3 A. As a general rule, that's correct. The amount of forensic

4 anthropology available varies from area to area. Forensic anthropology

5 is probably better developed in the United States than it is, say, in

6 England. I think it would be fair to say now if we were carrying out

7 this examination, then most of the work would be done by the forensic

8 anthropologists. In this -- in -- at this period, it was done by both in

9 consultation, and there are certain values in that in as far as because

10 these bodies were quite badly decomposed, it was sometimes necessary to

11 work out where the bullets would have travelled and that sometimes better

12 done by forensic pathologists.

13 Q. And for purposes of the work that was done in this case or I

14 should say in these cases since there were a number of reports about

15 different sites, am I correct that the pathologists, and that would be

16 you, had the final decision or say regarding the assessment of the

17 injuries?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And ... and in regard to the type of consultations that

20 you would have had with the anthropologists in terms of coming to a

21 conclusion, I would like to take a look at something with you.

22 MR. IVETIC: It's 1D1142 and it will be page 34 in e-court, which

23 will correlate to transcript page 7403 of the Tolimir case.

24 Q. And once that comes up on the monitors, sir, I would invite you

25 to follow along as I read lines 6 through 22 and then I'll have some

Page 14714

1 questions --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic --

3 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you please the 1D number again.

5 MR. IVETIC: 1D1142.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. That's fine.

7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. And, sir, it's a little bit faint on my screen but I think that's

9 the page, and if we can follow along from line 6, the question was:

10 "Since you said that the pathologist's findings were final and

11 authoritative, can you tell what could then have been the cause of such

12 disagreement? Do you have an example? And was there one single uniform

13 model for making reports? Or was it possible that injuries were

14 described differently from report to report?

15 "A. That's a multi-part question. The pathologists varied in

16 their experience of dealing with boney injuries. And most of the

17 pathologists would listen to the anthropologists' opinions in these

18 cases."

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should slow down, Mr. Ivetic.

20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

21 "I can recall some discussions between myself and Mr. Baraybar in

22 relation to some of the injuries that would be classified as possible or

23 probable gun-shot wounds. For example, where you might have a defect

24 that didn't have all of the normal characteristics of a gun-shot wound

25 but might have some fragments of metal. Those are the sorts of things

Page 14715

1 that might occur. There were also occasional questions about whether

2 there was a blunt force injury, a fracturing, which was -- and whether it

3 was, in fact, a blunt force or whatever [sic] it was -- occurred as a

4 consequence of a gun-shot wound."

5 Q. Now, sir, first I'm going to ask you does this appear to

6 accurately depict the testimony as you recall --

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee.

9 MS. LEE: I just wanted to point out the "blunt force or whatever

10 it was," I think that's page 25, it should read "whether it was" and not

11 "whatever it was."

12 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. That's correct.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

14 MR. IVETIC:

15 Q. And when you say the pathologists varied in their experience as

16 to boney injuries, I assume there we're talking about the other medical

17 pathologists that would have been working on the team and would have been

18 performing some of the autopsies as to the remains that were recovered?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. And am I correct that certain parts of your report such as the

21 determination of a minimum number of individuals and other

22 anthropological data within them, for those parts you're in essence

23 entirely relying upon the information that was conveyed to by the

24 anthropologists? You're not making any personal opinions in those

25 aspects of your report?

Page 14716

1 A. Yes. The -- sorry. Yes, the only reason the information appears

2 at all is because it's -- it's necessary to make sense of some of the

3 observations.

4 Q. And is it also correct, sir, that you did not have a personal

5 role in the exhumation and removal of the bodies, that this was performed

6 by Dr. Richard Wright and his team?

7 A. Yes, Dr. Wright was in charge of the exhumation team. I did

8 attend the exhumations at CR12, CR3, Liplje, and Zeleni Jadar, but only

9 to have a -- only to look at what was there. Richard was responsible for

10 what was going on there.

11 Q. Now, in relation to the actual autopsy work that was performed in

12 these cases am I -- would I be correct in stating that you personally

13 carried out only about one fifth to one quarter of all the autopsies that

14 were performed during your tenure as chief pathologist to the ICTY

15 mission?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. And am I also correct that at most times there were three

18 and then later maybe four pathologists working simultaneously at any

19 given time?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. And you mentioned something about reviewing the work of the other

22 pathologists. Was it the case that you would review every single autopsy

23 report that was prepared by another pathologist or would there be a

24 selection process? How did that review by yourself -- how did that take

25 place?

Page 14717

1 A. Initially I reviewed every single report. Towards the end as we

2 grew larger, I reviewed all of the whole body reports and all of the

3 large and significant body part reports. That's how I compiled the

4 information for the summary reports.

5 Q. And for purposes of your review of the report, would that entail

6 also an independent review of the remains that are the subject of the

7 report by yourself?

8 A. Not necessarily.

9 Q. Okay. And ... in each of the reports authored by you, the

10 summary reports, we always find something to the effect of saying that

11 each autopsy is entirely the responsibility of the pathologist performing

12 the autopsy and that at the end of the paragraph there's usually verbiage

13 stating that the opinions expressed in the report are entirely those of

14 the pathologist concerned.

15 In that sense, sir, the summary report, is it summarising the

16 findings of those pathologists who prepared the autopsies, including in

17 those cases where you prepared the autopsy, those findings, or is it

18 reporting on what your review of the reports found?

19 A. It was -- it was pretty much what the pathologists said. There

20 may have been occasional cases where having reviewed the documentation,

21 the thermal images of the x-rays, I might disagree. The report

22 remained -- the original report remained the same. My summary report

23 would reflect what I thought of the case.

24 Q. Okay. Would you agree with the general proposition that neither

25 a prosecutor nor investigator should ever have a role in instructing a

Page 14718

1 forensic pathologist how to draft their autopsy report or what to list as

2 a cause of death?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, in relation to the reports that you prepared, am I correct

5 that you have not done any further work on these matters since the time

6 of the trial in the Krstic proceedings?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you permit, sir, that developments that have occurred since

9 your work on the case may cast a new light on the facts that were known

10 to you at the time and thus might change the conclusions that were

11 reached?

12 A. Yes, that's possible.

13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I see we're at the break. I'm about

14 to go on to another topic, so we could take a break at this time.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll even adjourn for the day.

16 Mr. Lawrence, before we do so, I would like to instruct you that

17 you should not speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever about

18 your testimony, whether that is testimony given today or testimony still

19 to be given. We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this

20 same courtroom. You may now follow the usher.

21 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,

24 Friday, the 19th of July, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom,

25 III.

Page 14719

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day of July,

3 2013, at 9.30 a.m.