131021ED

Page 18163

1 solemn declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

3 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 WITNESS: DORA SOKOLA

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.

6 Ms. Sokola, you'll first be examined by Ms. Marcus. Ms. Marcus

7 is, not unknown to you, I take it, counsel for the Prosecution.

8 Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

9 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Examination by Ms. Marcus:

11 Q. Good morning, Ms. Sokola.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. Could you kindly state your full name and date of birth for the

14 record.

15 A. My name is Dora Sokola, and my date of birth is the 19th of May,

16 1972.

17 Q. Could you tell us where you were born, please.

18 A. I was born in Zagreb, in Croatia.

19 Q. And is that where you grew up as well?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you tell the Court your native language, please.

22 A. Croatian.

23 Q. Was this the language you spoke at home throughout your

24 childhood?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18164

1 Q. And was Croatian also the language of your education as a child?

2 A. Yes, it was.

3 Q. When did you come to learn English?

4 A. I started learning English when I was four years old and then

5 throughout my life.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Sokola, you have a natural huge speed of speech.

7 THE WITNESS: I'm so sorry.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you to --

9 THE WITNESS: That's what I was worried about.

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- slow down. Don't worry about it. We'll come

11 over it but please keep it in mind.

12 MS. MARCUS:

13 Q. Ms. Sokola, could you tell the Court a little bit about your

14 education, please.

15 A. I was educated through the end of high school in Croatia, and

16 then I spent a year in the US and then came back to Croatia for a year or

17 so to continue my university studies, after which I moved to Belgium

18 where I completed university.

19 Q. And what was your field of study?

20 A. International affairs.

21 Q. Could you tell the Court about your work history, just maybe

22 briefly, with some date, some years, let's say, please?

23 A. Okay. In 1991, I believe, I started working once I returned from

24 the US back to Croatia, I started working for ECMM as an interpreter, the

25 European Community Monitoring Mission as an interpreter. And then once I

Page 18165

1 moved to Belgium in 1994, I -- in November 1994 I started working at the

2 ICTY as a field interpreter.

3 Q. And what is a field interpreter, please?

4 A. A field interpreter is a -- I was working for the OTP and we went

5 on missions to talk to -- to witnesses. It was in the very early days to

6 investigate potential crimes. So I was interpreting for the

7 investigators and attorneys at the time.

8 Q. So since that time, that was 1994 --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Have you been working at the ICTY and, if so, in what capacity?

11 A. I continued to work as a field interpreter until 1995 or so, and

12 then in 1998 I became a full-time language assistant here. And in 1999,

13 I passed the translation professional translator exam with the CLSS in

14 the ICTY and I became a translator, which I continued to do until 2005

15 within the OTP. And then in 2005, I was head-hunted to go to the

16 State Court in Bosnia as an analyst where I spent two years and then I

17 came back here as an analyst.

18 Q. Focussing on your work as a language assistant, has your work

19 also involved transcribing and translating audio recordings?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Turning now to the events of the 18th of February, 2013, could I

22 ask you, please, to tell the Court what task were given by the

23 Prosecution on that day.

24 A. I received an e-mail, along with several of my colleagues, I

25 received an e-mail asking for assistance in court to listen to any

Page 18166

1 utterances by Mr. Mladic that might be made without having been recorded.

2 Q. And were you told the reason for that request, for that task?

3 A. The sensitivity and the story that the witness had to tell.

4 Q. Ms. Sokola, I'd like to ask you a few questions about your

5 recollection of the circumstances surrounding Mr. Mladic's outbursts

6 which you recorded on the 18th of February.

7 First, do you recall whether the outburst happened during a break

8 or during a hearing?

9 A. It was during a break between the first and the second session.

10 Q. Do you perhaps remember where during the break or when during the

11 break the outbursts were made?

12 A. It was before the -- the, Your Honours, Judges, came in.

13 Q. Do you recall who was present in the courtroom when the accused

14 exclaimed these words?

15 A. I recall that most of the Prosecution team was already there, and

16 the outburst occurred as the Defence team came in.

17 Q. Can you describe Mr. Mladic's movements during the utterance of

18 these words to the extent you are able to?

19 A. He was speaking as he came in, into the courtroom, and continued

20 to speak until he sat down, until the Judges came in.

21 Q. How is it that you were able to hear his words?

22 A. Mr. Mladic is fairly loud.

23 Q. Did you take down any notes of what you heard?

24 A. Yes. I -- I took down all that I could hear.

25 Q. And in what language did you make those notes, please?

Page 18167

1 A. I wrote it in English.

2 Q. How soon after the accused made these statements did you note

3 them down?

4 A. At the same time.

5 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, before I call up the next document, I

6 would like to pose a query to the Chamber.

7 During the testimony of Ms. Karall, I called up the e-mail she

8 had sent on the day of the accused's exclamations with her rendition of

9 the words she heard the accused say. It seemed to me not to be improper

10 because it was my understanding that the memory of the witness was not in

11 question but, rather, the accuracy of the content of what she heard the

12 accused say. However, I detected what I thought was perhaps a bit of

13 discomfort on the part of the Chamber when I did that. So before I do

14 that again, I would like to inquire with the Chamber if I may proceed in

15 the same manner with Ms. Sokola, that is, to call up an information

16 report which was prepared with -- by an investigator right after the

17 exclamations were heard and noted down by her.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Before I consult with my colleagues, does the

19 Defence take any position in relation to this?

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, we had no

21 problem with that, and said so earlier.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, are we talking about 30403, 65 ter, or

24 are we talking about the information report 30270?

25 MS. MARCUS: The latter, Your Honour. The latter, 30270.

Page 18168

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, the Chamber has no problem with the way

4 in which you intend to proceed as you suggested, so feel free to do so.

5 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour. Could the Court Officer

6 please call up 65 ter 30270.

7 This is an information report taken by an OTP investigator from

8 Ms. Sokola on the 18th of February, 2013.

9 Q. Ms. Sokola, do you see the information report taken by

10 investigator Erin Gallagher on the screen in front of you?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Do you recall giving the information that's in this information

13 report to Investigator Gallagher?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you confirm the accuracy and truthfulness of the information

16 you provided as contained in this information report?

17 A. It is true.

18 Q. And before I ask you to read the quote that you heard Mr. Mladic

19 say into the record, could I just ask you to explain for us what the --

20 the three dots that appear between some of the phrases, what -- what that

21 means?

22 A. It means that I did not hear exactly the -- the beginning of the

23 sentence, so rather than guess, I put dot, dot, dot.

24 Q. And can you tell us again before you read whether all of these

25 words were spoken right after each other or whether they were different

Page 18169

1 phrases were spoken over a period of time. You described there was a

2 period of time over which he was speaking.

3 A. They were -- they were spoken over a period of time from the

4 moment that Mr. Mladic came in until the time that the Chamber walked in,

5 into the court.

6 Q. Could I ask you please to read the words you heard the accused

7 exclaim in B/C/S aloud?

8 A. [Interpretation] "Branko, is Selmo alive. Mesa Selimovic's

9 Muslim family. I got them out of Mostar.

10 "All of this is correct and I'm proud of them. What the fuck

11 does a Muslim woman want? Ask her about Cicmo. He was a great fighter,

12 killed at Trnovo. Did he rape her? Or Lieutenant-Colonel Miljkovic, did

13 he rape her? Vlasenica -- chief was --"

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we go to the next page -- can we go to the

15 next page in English, please.

16 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?

17 JUDGE ORIE: No, we have --

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was a request --

19 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was request to the court usher.

21 JUDGE ORIE: B/C/S. Not yet. No.

22 Please proceed.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "... to Vlasenica. Cifo's

24 brother-in-law and his daughter Vesna, they were in Vienna later. They

25 had come from Macedonia and they asked me to get the Macedonians out of

Page 18170

1 Sarajevo."

2 MS. MARCUS:

3 Q. Thank you. Ms. Sokola, who translated the -- the English notes

4 that you took back into B/C/S as we see in the information report?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. Do you know what paper the accused was waving as you describe in

7 the information report?

8 A. I don't, no.

9 MS. MARCUS: The Prosecution tenders into evidence this

10 information report, 30720, as a public exhibit. The redactions at the

11 beginning are the portion that related to Ms. Karall, her evidence. And

12 the redactions at the end relate to what Mr. Mladic exclaimed as he was

13 being removed from the courtroom which the Prosecution does not seek to

14 tender into evidence.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, I hear of no objections. I see

16 that there are no objections, the number would be.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30270 receives number P2533,

18 Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: P2533 is admitted.

20 MS. MARCUS:

21 Q. Ms. Sokola, thank you very much.

22 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Marcus.

24 Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to --

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may get just a moment to

Page 18171

1 consult my client, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You have a short moment. And your client is

3 expected to keep the volume of his voice down so that no one can hear

4 your conversation.

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic. Mr. Mladic. Mr. Mladic, I can hear you

7 even through my earphones, so, therefore, that's not the volume I expect.

8 Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Sokola, you'll now be cross-examined by

11 Mr. Stojanovic. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Sokola.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. I will ask you only a couple of questions and let us try to slow

16 down because both you and I tend to speak fast.

17 The first thing I would like to clarify is your task on that day

18 in the courtroom. You spoke about that partly, but I would like to hear

19 the specifics now. What exactly was your task? Were what were you

20 follow specifically?

21 A. I -- I was to follow any, as I said, any utterances made by

22 Mr. Mladic off the record at the time when he was not being recorded, so

23 during the breaks, and to record, myself, write down anything he says.

24 Q. At what moment did you enter the courtroom with that assignment?

25 A. During the first break.

Page 18172

1 Q. Were you together in -- with Maria Karall, in this courtroom at

2 any point in time?

3 A. No.

4 Q. The moment when you entered the courtroom during the first break,

5 was that -- was Mr. Mladic present in the courtroom at that time?

6 A. Mr. Mladic was not present at -- in the courtroom at the time.

7 Q. Until that day, did you ever have a similar assignment?

8 A. Similar, yes; the same, no.

9 Q. And did you -- were you present in the courtroom with a similar

10 task at any time before the event in question?

11 A. I don't believe so, no. I don't recall so.

12 Q. Who specifically gave you that assignment?

13 A. Ms. Marcus.

14 Q. Was it ever pointed out to you that the communication between a

15 defendant and his Defence counsels is privileged communication?

16 A. I was given a task, and I did it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Do I have to understand your answer that this was

18 not pointed out to you, or was it ever pointed out to you?

19 THE WITNESS: It was not pointed out to me at the time.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So may I conclude, then, that it was your task to follow and note

24 down whatever was being said outside the trial, that is, what was being

25 said between the defendant and his Defence counsel and what -- and does

Page 18173

1 not enter the transcript?

2 A. No. My task was to follow what Mr. Mladic said. Not what the

3 Defence attorneys said. Just what Mr. Mladic said.

4 Q. Were you ever told to follow only what was being said aloud and

5 make an assessment yourself what -- what aloud is? Or were you supposed

6 to note down whatever you were able to hear?

7 A. Whatever I was able to hear.

8 Q. Were you ever told to note down only what Mr. Mladic says in

9 connection with the witness or anything he says to his Defence attorney

10 and that you're able to hear?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you are including, again and again,

12 that the task was to record what Mr. Mladic said to his Defence

13 attorneys. Whereas the witness has now twice explained that all

14 utterances, not excluding the ones that you are referring to, that all

15 utterances were to be written down.

16 So would you please refrain in your question from more or less

17 twisting the previous answer given by the witness.

18 Perhaps you repeat the question.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will try to be briefer and

20 more direct, Your Honour.

21 Q. Is it correct that your task was to note down whatever

22 General Mladic was saying to his Defence counsel, no matter whether it

23 related to the witness that testified on that day?

24 A. It is correct that I was told to record -- to note down and

25 follow everything that Mr. Mladic said, not necessarily to his Defence

Page 18174

1 attorneys, though.

2 Q. Let me try and understand this better. If Mr. Mladic were to

3 speak about his family or his private affairs to his Defence counsel, was

4 it your task to record that too?

5 A. I believe so, yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Let us now together take another look at document

7 30270 from the 65 ter list.

8 I will now ask you, Ms. Sokola, if you can tell me which words of

9 the ones that you noted down Mr. Mladic uttered when -- as he was

10 entering the courtroom and where does the text begin that he uttered from

11 his usual place in the courtroom.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please clarify your question. You are

13 referring to "usual place." Could you be more precise, Mr. Stojanovic.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll take it step by step,

15 Your Honours.

16 Q. Please, can you tell us, out of all of these words that you wrote

17 down, what were the words that Mr. Mladic uttered as he walked into the

18 courtroom as you explained that during the examination-in-chief?

19 A. I wrote down the -- the words, the sentences as -- in -- in the

20 order that they were happening. So he would have been asking about

21 Mesa Selimovic as he entered. I believe.

22 Q. When he uttered his first sentence, "Branko, is Selmo alive," did

23 you notice who it was that he specifically addressed this question to?

24 A. I can tell you what I assumed, that it was his Defence attorney,

25 Branko Lukic, Mr. Branko Lukic. But I was not looking at Mr. Mladic

Page 18175

1 throughout this time because I was also writing things down.

2 Q. Is it correct that Mesa Selimovic is the first and last name of a

3 well-known Yugoslav writer?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know that this Yugoslav writer, Mesa Selimovic, passed

6 away many years before the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are you sure that you heard that, on that occasion, Mr. Mladic

9 mentioned precisely that name, Mesa Selimovic?

10 A. That is what I heard at the time, yes.

11 Q. These sentences, "Branko, is Selmo alive? Mesa Selimovic, his

12 Muslim family, I got them out of Mostar," were they uttered in a

13 continuous manner or was there an interruption in terms of time between

14 these sentences?

15 A. There may have been a few seconds between each section of the

16 sentence but they seemed to be a continuous phrase.

17 Q. Your next note says: "All of this is correct." And then you

18 have this digression. He's waving a piece of paper. Can you tell the

19 Trial Chamber whether it is a book, a single piece of paper, or several

20 pieces of paper that General Mladic was waving?

21 A. It was not a book. If it had been a book, I believe I would have

22 written "book." But I don't recall if it was a single sheet of paper or

23 several.

24 Q. The next sentence that you wrote down says:

25 "Ask her about Cicmo. He was a great fighter, killed at Trnovo.

Page 18176

1 Did he rape her? Or did Lieutenant-Colonel Miljkovic, did he rape her?"

2 Who was it that Mr. Mladic was addressing as he uttered this

3 sentence?

4 A. The Defence team that that was with him.

5 Q. And then what follows is the next sentence that you wrote down,

6 the part that did you not manage to write down, and then:

7 "... to Vlasenica. Cifo's brother-in-law and his daughter Vesna,

8 they were in Vienna later. They had come from Macedonia, and they asked

9 me to get the Macedonians out of Sarajevo."

10 Would you agree with me that this sentence has no contextual link

11 to the previous text and the previous sentence?

12 A. I agree.

13 Q. Thank you. Between these sentences, was there an interruption, a

14 pause, or did all this happen in a flow, if you will?

15 A. No, there -- there were pauses between these sentences. And --

16 at which time also the -- Mr. Lukic and other members of the Defence

17 team, if I recall correctly, spoke to -- to Mr. Mladic.

18 Q. Do you want to tell us now that there was some communication that

19 you did not write down, something that Mr. Mladic had uttered to his

20 Defence attorneys except for this just before "to Vlasenica"?

21 A. No. I'm saying that there was -- this was a conversation and

22 that I did not hear what was being said by other people -- people other

23 than Mr. Mladic.

24 Q. Yes, and that's why I'm asking you. Was there anything else that

25 Mr. Mladic had uttered to his Defence attorneys and that you did not

Page 18177

1 write that down except for what you marked for us here, "to Vlasenica"?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I repeat what I said before. The

3 first question is: Was there anything else that Mr. Mladic had uttered

4 and that did you not write down except for what you marked?

5 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You don't believe so.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I might just jump in, Mr. Stojanovic. But you

10 didn't write what other people said to Mr. Mladic?

11 THE WITNESS: I didn't hear what other people said.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you didn't write that. And you were not

13 instructed to write what other people said.

14 THE WITNESS: Exactly. No.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, please observe a pause

17 between question and answer.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, just half a

19 moment, half a minute, Your Honours, please, and it will be very quiet.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Until -- up to the moment where Mr. Mladic is

21 seated again, and again I repeat: No conversation which is audible for

22 other persons, so that means whispering, otherwise, have you to wait

23 until the break.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, you often take off your earphones when

Page 18178

1 you start your conversation which results in missing my words. Now,

2 fortunately, your volume was down. But would you please not take them

3 off so that you miss my instructions to you.

4 Let's proceed. Mr. Stojanovic.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Just one more question, Ms. Sokola.

7 What did General Mladic look like as he entered the courtroom?

8 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please rephrase this very vague question.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Was he red in the face?

12 A. I -- I don't recall this at all, no.

13 Q. Did he come across as a person who was upset, agitated?

14 A. Not particularly. No, I don't think so.

15 Q. The words that he uttered, did he utter them too loud in a way

16 that was not the usual way in which one communicates with one's Defence

17 counsel?

18 A. I have heard Mr. Mladic utter things in court off the record as

19 well and it's always at a certain volume. So I don't -- it wasn't out of

20 the norm, no, I don't think so.

21 MS. MARCUS: I'm sorry --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.

23 MS. MARCUS: It just seems that the witness perhaps didn't

24 understand the question, so I just wanted to be sure that that's

25 clarified.

Page 18179

1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to keep things as simple as we can.

2 Are you familiar with the volume with which Mr. Mladic speaks

3 when he consults with counsel? In court, I mean.

4 THE WITNESS: I have -- yes. I have -- I have watched the

5 proceedings before, yes. So I am familiar through that, yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you also have been today in court, where

7 Mr. Mladic consulted with counsel. Was that at a similar volume as when

8 he spoke when he -- on the date about which you testify?

9 THE WITNESS: No, it was -- it was at much lower volume today.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What was your -- where were you seated in the

11 courtroom?

12 THE WITNESS: I was seated with the Prosecution team.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Were you seated at the back row closest to the

14 interpreters' booth?

15 THE WITNESS: Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: When Mr. Mladic entered the courtroom, where was he?

17 Was he at the opposite side of the courtroom?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Did he come ever any closer to you than being at the

20 very last row of the courtroom closest to the interpreters' booth to, at

21 this moment as you're seated here, to your left?

22 THE WITNESS: No.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].

25 Q. I shall conclude with the following question.

Page 18180

1 All of this communication, was it between Mr. Mladic and his

2 Defence attorneys?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And at that point in time, there were no Judges in the courtroom

5 and the witness was not in the courtroom either; is that correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions for you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I have one more question for you before I give an

9 opportunity to Ms. Marcus for re-examination.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE ORIE: Was the volume of Mr. Mladic's voice such that it

12 was easy for you to hear him, or did you have to make a great effort in

13 trying to hear what he said?

14 A. It was very easy to hear him.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Which means, if I understand you well, that it was

16 so loud as for you to easily hear what he said from the other side of the

17 courtroom.

18 A. That's correct.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one question --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I -- there seem to be -- I start to my

22 left. Judge Fluegge may have one or more questions for you.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You told us about the words he uttered. The

24 first word you noted down, was that uttered while Mr. Mladic was

25 standing, walking, or sitting?

Page 18181

1 A. He was -- he was walking, I believe.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And he continued while he was sitting? Or

3 seated?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Moloto has one or more questions for.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you were sitting where you were sitting, were

8 you hiding away or were you sitting in such a way that Mr. Mladic could

9 see you?

10 A. No, I believe Mr. Mladic could see me.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were you alone in the courtroom, other than the

12 team, the Defence team?

13 A. No, most of the Prosecution team was already here.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: They were all there.

15 A. Most of them, yes.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And Mr. Mladic could see them too? They were not

17 hiding.

18 A. Yes, yes, of course.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, any further questions for the witness?

21 MS. MARCUS: Just a few, Your Honour.

22 Re-examination by Ms. Marcus:

23 Q. Ms. Sokola, was it your impression that the accused was trying to

24 have a private conversation with his attorneys when you heard him exclaim

25 these words?

Page 18184

1 excused, and you may follow the usher.

2 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

5 and I do apologise to my learned friend, I was asked by our client to

6 make it possible for him to be transported even if we are going to stay

7 in court longer because at 11.00 he has a religious service scheduled and

8 he would like to attend. So I'm going to ask you if we continue to deal

9 with procedural matters, we do have Mr. Mladic's consent to go on, but

10 could he please be transported to where he would like to go.

11 Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if Mr. Mladic waives his right to be present

13 in court, nothing, as far as the Chamber is concerned, opposes him being

14 transported back. The Chamber, however, is not in a position to give any

15 instructions or orders in relation to transportation, but if that could

16 be achieved, I think the Chamber would fully support that so that

17 Mr. Mladic would be back in time to -- to attend that ceremony.

18 Even -- I have a few matters I would like to deal with before the

19 break, mainly asking the Prosecution -- the Defence to consider whether

20 there's any response. If Mr. Mladic would prefer already to leave the

21 courtroom at this moment, it -- he is granted leave to do so.

22 So if Mr. Mladic even before the end of this session would prefer

23 to leave ...

24 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I just note that his waiver is not on

25 the record. I just thought that might be --

Page 18185

1 JUDGE ORIE: Although expressed by counsel. Counsel says that he

2 is and we usually rely on -- I think that's what Mr. Stojanovic said. So

3 I'm asking -- we continue deal with procedural matters. We do have

4 Mr. Mladic's consent to go on, but could he please be transported, which

5 is understood as a waiver of his right not to be present.

6 Is that a proper understanding, Mr. Stojanovic? I see Mr. Mladic

7 nodding yes, which is hereby put on the record as well. And he repeats

8 it.

9 If Mr. Mladic would like to be escorted out of the courtroom at

10 this moment, then security is invited to escort ... no, he --

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Meanwhile, I just continue.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since this is not

15 going to last for a long time, then you can continue with Mr. Mladic's

16 consent. He will stay on.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I deal with a few matters only at this moment.

18 Ms. Marcus.

19 MS. MARCUS: I apologise, Your Honour. I just wanted to mention

20 that I would like to make a brief bar table submission that came up as a

21 result of the cross-examination, but I can do that at the start of the

22 next session or as Your Honours wish.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, now Mr. Mladic is aware of your

24 intention, and we'll see whether he intends to remain with us or whether

25 he waives his right to be present.

Page 18187

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we shall try to

2 respond immediately after the break. We just need to identify this.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, finally, a short observation in relation

4 to Rule 65 ter 28036.

5 On the 18th of October, we dealt with this Rule 65 ter number. I

6 think 28036 was initially tendered through Witness RM506 and the Defence

7 then indicated that they needed to consider whether they have any

8 objections to admission. They were instructed to do so not later than

9 that same week, which is found at transcript page 1711. That's -- seems

10 to be a mistake. It could not possibly be. But so my reference to the

11 transcript is inaccurate. Nevertheless, the Chamber would like to hear

12 the Defence's position in relation to 65 ter 28036. Perhaps also after

13 the break, Mr. Stojanovic.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Our colleague

15 Mr. Ivetic is working on that, and I believe that this response is going

16 to be filed today, or it is already taking place.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, would it assist the parties if we take a

18 slightly longer break and deal with a few other procedural matters after

19 the break? Since there's no other witness available, we might take a bit

20 more time.

21 Then I suggest a break until quarter past 11.00. Would that do?

22 I hear of no objections. If Mr. Mladic wants to return to the UNDU, as I

23 said before, the Chamber has no objections. And if Mr. Mladic does not

24 return in the courtroom after the break, this will be understood as an

25 explicit waiver to be present.

Page 18188

1 We take a break and we resume at quarter past 11.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

3 [The accused not present]

4 --- On resuming at 11.16 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I hereby put on the record that Mr. Mladic is not

6 present in court. The Chamber understands his absence as a waiver of his

7 right to attend the proceedings.

8 Perhaps, Ms. Marcus, you announced that you would raise a bar

9 table submission.

10 MS. MARCUS: Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

11 It's one document. It's 65 ter 30266. This was the

12 demonstrative exhibit that was distributed in the courtroom during the

13 testimony of RM048 and Mr. Stojanovic has informed me that he has no

14 objections to this being admitted.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, 65 ter 30266 receives number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Number P2534, Your Honours.

17 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, it should be under seal, please.

18 JUDGE ORIE: P2534 is admitted under seal.

19 Nothing else, Ms. Marcus.

20 MS. MARCUS: Just more thing I wanted to put on the record in

21 relation to this and that would be the end of that, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MS. MARCUS: I just wanted refer the Chamber to the courtroom

24 video, which was admitted as P2181, at clips 5 and 6, and this is all in

25 relation to the evidence of Ms. Sokola. And to Exhibits P357 at page --

Page 18189

1 in particular, page 69 in the original B/C/S handwritten version, and

2 P359, pages 17 and 18, pardon me, in the handwritten B/C/S original.

3 The Prosecution's submission is that the document that was just

4 admitted, P2534, and these two exhibits, portions of exhibits which I've

5 just mentioned, are the papers that Mr. Mladic was waving during the time

6 he made the utterances.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's argument already, although what he

8 showed or not is interpretation of the evidence.

9 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. It was just to put it on the

10 record to guide the Chamber. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

12 Mr. Stojanovic, any matter from the Defence to be discussed?

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I must admit that

14 I haven't fully understood on what basis the Prosecutor is making this

15 suggestion. Where is this found at in the witness's statement that

16 Mr. Mladic was waving a sheet of paper? It doesn't follow. I don't

17 understand.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- let me try to explain to you how I understood

19 how the Chamber understood it.

20 That, although the witness did not -- said, could not tell us,

21 what exactly it was that Mr. Mladic had shown, that it is, nevertheless,

22 the Prosecution's position that the portions of P357 and P359 mentioned

23 by Ms. Marcus were the documents the -- Mr. Mladic was showing.

24 That is the Prosecution's position in relation to this evidence,

25 even where the witness could not identify it -- could not identify the

Page 18192

1 that declarations and attestations be provided. The Chamber has reviewed

2 the relevant documentation and hereby confirms admission of P2446, P2451,

3 P2452, P2455, P2465, and P2487.

4 The next matter I would like to deal with is a decision by the

5 Chamber in relation to protective measures for Witnesses RM029 and RM073.

6 On the 6th of February, 2013, the Prosecution filed a motion in

7 relation to Witness RM029 requesting the protective measures of face and

8 voice distortion, pseudonym, and redaction of the witness's name and

9 other potentially identifying information from the witness's statement.

10 On the same date, the Prosecution filed a motion in relation to

11 Witness RM073 requesting the protective measures of pseudonym, and

12 redaction of the witness's name and other potentially identifying

13 information from the witness's statement.

14 In relation to both witnesses, the Prosecution contends that

15 protective measures are necessary as the witnesses are fearful for their

16 safety in the event of their identity becoming known and further submits

17 that the granting of measures would not impact upon the accused's fair

18 trial rights with -- fair trial rights.

19 With regard to Witness RM029, the Prosecution also submits that

20 the witness resides in an area where certain of the crimes described in

21 the witness's statement were committed.

22 On the 20th of February, 2013, the Defence filed a response to

23 each of the above motions, arguing in relation to both that the

24 Prosecution requests are based on generic and vague fears rather than

25 real fears for the safety of the witnesses, and emphasising that the

Page 18193

1 accused is entitled to a public trial.

2 The Chamber refers to the applicable law set out in its "Decision

3 on Prosecution motion for protective measures for Witness RM115," dated

4 the 15th of August, 2012.

5 At the outset, the Chamber notes that the Prosecution has merely

6 relied upon the generic information provided in the investigator's

7 statements annexed to the motions without expanding on how the test for

8 protective measures has been met for either witness.

9 The Chamber notes that Witness RM029's evidence has been admitted

10 pursuant to Rule 92 bis and, therefore, the request for protective

11 measures, in so far as it relates to face and voice distortion, is moot.

12 As regards the remainder of the request regarding Witness RM029,

13 the Chamber considers that the witness provides mainly generic

14 information regarding detention conditions, and while he refers to one

15 alleged direct perpetrator in his statement, the witness was informed of

16 his name by other detainees. Accordingly, there was an insufficient

17 basis to conclude that this evidence may antagonize persons residing in

18 the area where the witness lives.

19 With regard to Witness RM073, the Chamber notes that the witness

20 provides evidence regarding incidents which purportedly occurred while in

21 detention and identifies a number of alleged direct perpetrators.

22 However, the Chamber considers that it is unknown whether the alleged

23 direct perpetrators reside in the same area as the witness. There is an

24 insufficient basis to conclude that this evidence may antagonize persons

25 residing in the area where the witness lives.

Page 18194

1 Weighing the reasons provided in the motions against the right of

2 the accused to a public trial, the Chamber considers that there is an

3 insufficient basis to conclude that protective measures are justified for

4 either witness, and, accordingly, denies the Prosecution's -- Prosecution

5 motions.

6 And this concludes the Chamber's decision and, as a result, the

7 Chamber lifts the confidentiality of the exhibits admitted through these

8 two exhibits in its decision of the 23rd of September, 2013.

9 Next, I will deliver a decision on the admission of P1087.

10 On the 1st of March, 2013, the Prosecution tendered into evidence

11 with Witness Erin Gallagher the Srebrenica map book bearing Rule 65 ter

12 number 28747.

13 The Defence objected to the admission of portions of map book on

14 the grounds that the sources of information appearing in some of the maps

15 were not identified and that the exhibit could only be introduced as a

16 demonstrative exhibit through witnesses with personal factual knowledge

17 about its contents. This can be found at transcript pages 9462 to 9463.

18 The Chamber marked the exhibit for identification as P1087. The

19 parties reiterated their submissions on the admission of P1087 during the

20 housekeeping session of the 25th of July, 2013.

21 With respect to the requirements for admissibility into evidence

22 pursuant to Rule 89(C), the Chamber first notes that the exhibit contains

23 maps that the Prosecution submits relate to various VRS zones of

24 responsibility and several alleged crime sites in the Srebrenica area.

25 The Chamber also notes the evidence of Witness Gallagher in this regard.

Page 18195

1 The Chamber finds, therefore, that the exhibit is relevant to

2 Counts 2 through 8 of the indictment and has probative value for the

3 purpose of admission into evidence.

4 The Chamber considers that the Defence submissions on the sources

5 and the purpose of the exhibit are matters that go to the weight the

6 Chamber will ultimately give to the maps in light of all the evidence

7 before it. The Chamber takes this opportunity to emphasise, as it has

8 done in relation to similar map collections which it has admitted into

9 evidence, that it considers the map book mainly as a reference and the

10 Prosecution's markings and descriptions to be primarily illustrations of

11 the Prosecution's case which need to be proven by evidence.

12 For the foregoing reasons, the Chamber admits P1087 into

13 evidence.

14 And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

15 Next item is a corrigendum. A short corrigendum in relation to

16 the Chamber's decision on the 21st Rule 92 bis motion which was filed on

17 the 16th of October, 2013.

18 In the disposition, under (ii), Mihajlo Galic, point (a),

19 transcript pages 10625, column 22, and 10626, column 21, should be

20 separated by a dash and not by a comma.

21 Further, under (iii), Danko Gojkovic, point (c), the decision

22 should read transcript page 2894, line 3, instead of 728 -- 72894,

23 line 3. Yes. I started to misspeak, but then everything is now clear on

24 the record.

25 I move on and deliver the Chamber's decision on the Prosecution's

Page 18196

1 request to add eight documents to its Rule 65 ter exhibit list.

2 On the 20th of September, 2013, the Prosecution requested the

3 addition of eight documents to its Rule 65 ter exhibit list. These

4 documents are related to Witness RM507. The Chamber notes that the

5 Defence has not opposed the addition.

6 Having reviewed the documents, the Chamber is satisfied that it

7 is in the interests of justice to add them -- to have them added to the

8 exhibit list. The Prosecution is hereby granted leave to add the

9 documents to its exhibit list.

10 I move on to the next item which deals with outstanding issues

11 related to the testimony of Emir Turkusic.

12 I whether address several outstanding issues which arose during

13 the testimony of Emir Turkusic from the 27th to the 30th of August, 2013.

14 With regard to Exhibit P2043, the Prosecution was instructed to

15 check the English translation on pages 19 and following of the document

16 because some words are considered illegible, even though Mr. Lukic was

17 able to read them. This can be found on transcript pages 15936 to 15937.

18 On transcript page 15946, the Defence was instructed to draw a

19 line with a certain angle on Exhibit D351. The Defence is now instructed

20 to upload a new version of D351 containing the mentioned line, and the

21 Registry is already instructed to replace D351 with the new version of

22 D351 as soon as it is available.

23 With regard to D356, MFI'd, the parties were instructed to inform

24 the Chamber if they agree which excerpts of the rule-book and another

25 rule-book for 120-millimetre mortars should be tendered. This can be

Page 18197

1 found on transcript page 15943.

2 Further, concerning D357, MFI'd, a map, the Defence was

3 instructed to provide the Prosecution with transcript references where

4 the witness testifies about the map so as to resume the discussion on

5 admission. This can be found on transcript page -- pages 15943 to 15945.

6 The parties are instructed to comply with all these instructions

7 within seven days and inform the Chamber when they have been done.

8 I move onto my next item which deals with revised translations.

9 I think I dealt with them already before the break, but we were still

10 waiting for the Defence's position in relation to MFI 2198.

11 Mr. Stojanovic, any report on 2198? I should say P2198.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will

13 proceed in the same order.

14 P52918 is a translation from the original French into English,

15 and we were to --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- if you wouldn't mind. There seems to be --

17 there may be a problem. I was talking about 2198, whereas you refer, as

18 it was translated to us, to P52918, which is at least a different number.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I believe I

20 said P2198.

21 And as far as our Defence is concerned, I kindly request some

22 more time for us to take a position because the original document is in

23 French, which we do not speak.

24 P1110, we got an English translation and have no objection to the

25 admission of this document.

Page 18198

1 And we are still to take a position as regards document 28036.

2 We have no complaint to that save for our general complaint to the

3 admission of intercepts.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's deal with them separately.

5 P2198, you're asking for more time. How much more time would you

6 need, Mr. Stojanovic?

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The end of this week,

8 Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It took me more time to learn French, but if

10 you can do it within this week, Mr. Stojanovic, it's highly appreciated.

11 Then, Madam Registrar, for P1110, MFI'd, have you -- has a

12 revised English translation been uploaded?

13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It has been uploaded.

15 JUDGE ORIE: It has been uploaded. You're hereby instructed to

16 replace the newly uploaded English translation -- no, to replace the old

17 English translation by the newly uploaded one. And, once this is done,

18 P1110 is admitted into evidence.

19 Then we move to 65 ter 28036. We do understand the remaining

20 objection ...

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied.

23 Madam Registrar, would you please assign -- give us a number for

24 65 ter 28036.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28036 receives number P2535,

Page 18199

1 Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: P2535 is admitted into evidence.

3 The next item I'd like to deal with is a corrigendum to the

4 Chamber's decision on the 20th Rule 92 bis motion.

5 On the 25th of September, 2013, the Chamber issued its decision

6 on the Prosecution's 20th Rule 92 bis motion. Therein, it instructed the

7 Registry to change the status of evidence admitted through Witness RM027

8 and RM704 from confidential to public unless the Prosecution would file

9 motions for protective measures for these witnesses.

10 The Prosecution advised the Chamber that Witness RM704 was

11 granted protective measures in a prior case. Accordingly, the Chamber

12 withdraws its instruction to the Registry to lift the status of the

13 witness's admitted evidence.

14 Regarding Witness RM027, the Prosecution advised the Chamber that

15 one associated exhibit, namely, Rule 65 ter 13375, has been placed under

16 seal in the Tadic and the Karadzic cases. The Chamber requests the

17 Prosecution to provide further information within one week why this

18 exhibit should be kept confidential and defers its final decision on this

19 exhibit's status. Until then, the exhibit remains under seal.

20 The last item on my agenda deals with the Chamber's statement on

21 the further scheduling of the case.

22 With all but one evidentiary motion by the Prosecution filed, the

23 Chamber would like to give the parties some impression of its current

24 scheduling expectations.

25 The Prosecution is expected to rest its case in November 2013.

Page 18200

1 The Chamber may need some time to decide on all pending evidentiary

2 motions so as to close the Prosecution's case. The Chamber expects that

3 the Prosecution's case be closed by January 2014. Any Rule 98 bis

4 submissions should be made soon thereafter, and the Defence should be

5 ready to do so towards the end of January or early February. In this

6 respect, the Defence should inform the Chamber as soon as possible

7 whether it, in fact, intends to bring a Rule 98 bis motion. Should there

8 be a need for a Defence case, the Defence should be ready to start its

9 presentation of evidence around February or March 2014. A Scheduling

10 Order with exact dates will follow in due course.

11 This was all the Chamber had on its agenda. Any questions or any

12 further submissions?

13 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I just wanted to inform the Chamber,

14 update the Chamber on two additional outstanding matters.

15 One relates to documents that were going to be tendered from the

16 bar table in relation to Witness Riedlmayer. At page 17886, my colleague

17 Mr. Traldi informed the Chamber that he may have a brief bar table

18 submission depending upon what areas are challenged. Mr. Traldi has, in

19 fact, approximately eight documents, and he is currently in discussion

20 with the Defence to see whether they could reach an agreement on -- on

21 those documents. That's just to put that -- to inform the Chamber.

22 The other aspect -- the other item I wanted to mention to the

23 Chamber relates to Witness Jeremy Bowen. There are some pending

24 documents; namely, his statement and the -- and the excerpts of his prior

25 transcript, which are MFI'd as P2515 and P2516, as well as eight

Page 18201

1 associated exhibits which haven't yet been tendered. So they remain with

2 their 65 ter numbers.

3 The Prosecution would -- will contact the Defence and will try to

4 see if an agreement can be reached, and we will keep the Chamber informed

5 of the update on that. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for these updates. Nothing to decide at

7 this moment for the Chamber, I see. We'll hear from the parties soon.

8 Any other matter?

9 If not, we adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,

10 Tuesday, the 22nd of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

11 courtroom, I.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.55 a.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of

14 October, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.