Page 21677
1 Wednesday, 28 May 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 There are no preliminaries. Therefore, could the witness be
11 escorted into the courtroom.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Lukic -- is the witness on its way?
14 Mr. Lukic, yesterday Mr. Gengo marked again D476 which was then
15 admitted anew with a better, visible marking. Now, the same problems do
16 exist in relation to D474 and D475. Whether it will be you or whether it
17 would be Mr. Weber who does this exercise is relatively -- I don't mind
18 who of the two takes that action. But we'd like to have marked maps
19 clearly marked and so perhaps it should be done again.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if it is okay, I will leave it to
22 Mr. Lukic. I would have no objection to him approaching that in
23 re-examination, just because I'm not fully familiar with the witness's
24 previous markings.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Gengo. Before you -- we continue,
Page 21678
1 I'd like to remind you --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by
4 the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your testimony
5 that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 Mr. Weber will now continue his cross-examination.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
8 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 WITNESS: SLAVKO GENGO [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber: [Continued]
12 Q. Good morning again, Mr. Gengo.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Yesterday we left off discussing your responsibilities between
15 February 1995 and the end of the war with respect to logistics. I'd like
16 to pick up on that topic at the beginning of today.
17 During your interview that you had with members of the
18 Karadzic Prosecution team on 16 of October 2012, this reference is at
19 page 6 of that transcript, you were asked:
20 "Were you often involved in getting munitions from the VJ for the
21 VRS? "
22 Your answer was:
23 "As necessary, as they would send me, then I would go."
24 Next question was:
25 "During what period did you perform that function?
Page 21679
1 Your answer:
2 "As I stated, since 1995, since February 1995, March, February,
3 March, maybe March 1995 till the end of the war."
4 Do you stand by this evidence?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P893.
7 Q. Sir, today, I'm just going to go through one document with you
8 and ask you to assist us with the procedure that was involved with this.
9 Sir, can you see the document on the screen before you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. This is a 10 July 1995 request from SRK commander
12 General Dragomir Milosevic for weapons and ammunition. I would like to
13 direct your attention first to the initials that appear towards the
14 bottom of the page on the left-hand side across from the -- to the left
15 of the signature. There, the initials, SM --
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. The initials SM. Is it correct that these initials are those of
18 Milivoj Solar?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What are -- what is the significance of the -- these initials on
21 this document?
22 A. Milivoj Solar was the chief of technical services in the
23 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and this was a technical matter. That's why he
24 drafted this letter and any letter of this kind and signed them.
25 Q. Is it correct that once Mr. Solar would draft these documents, it
Page 21680
1 would then be presented to Dragomir Milosevic for his approval and
2 signature?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. WEBER: Now, if we could please go up to the top of the
5 document.
6 Q. This request is addressed to the VRS Main Staff. Is it correct
7 that the SRK then directed its request for munitions --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Sir, if you could please wait for me to finish my question. Is
10 it correct that the SRK directed its requests for munitions to the
11 Main Staff for its approval?
12 A. This is correct. They couldn't do anything without the
13 Main Staff. Things had to go along the line of command, and that's how
14 they were approved.
15 Q. The last full sentence on this document, which, I believe, is
16 down in the English or possibly on the next page. I believe it's
17 actually on the next page states:
18 "Our authorised representative, Slavko Gengo, will collect the
19 requested approval and personally deliver it to the VJ for further
20 action."
21 Excuse me: "... deliver it to the responsible organs in the VJ
22 for further action."
23 Is it correct that General Mladic or one of his subordinates in
24 the logistics sector of the Main Staff, such as General Djukic, would
25 approve the request and then you would take it to the VJ?
Page 21681
1 A. That's how things were done. Because of their urgency, those
2 documents had to be urgently approved and then I had to go to Yugoslavia
3 with them.
4 Q. Who did you take it to in the VJ, in Serbia?
5 A. To the logistics base.
6 Q. Where was that located? In Belgrade?
7 A. In Belgrade.
8 Q. And you would personally report to the General Staff of the
9 Yugoslav army, the VJ; correct?
10 A. No, not to the General Staff but to the logistics base.
11 MR. WEBER: That's all I have for this document.
12 Q. Mr. Gengo, for the rest of today, I'm just going to hit on a
13 couple of matters that were loose ends from yesterday.
14 MR. WEBER: If the Prosecution could please have P6537.
15 Q. And, sir, I'm going to be directing to sub-point 3 when this
16 comes up. I -- I'm returning to the topic of the documents that followed
17 the Markale shelling, and the -- the possible references in them. This
18 document was admitted yesterday but I didn't put any questions to you.
19 At this time I'd like to read you -- direct you to a specific
20 part of this document, and read to you your previous question and answer
21 that was asked to you during the Karadzic proceedings.
22 In the Karadzic case, this is at transcript page 29816, after
23 you'd been asked some questions, you were asked the following:
24 "Again, there's no reference to a visit of a Joint Commission;
25 although, it does at paragraph 3 refer to a meeting on events in Sarajevo
Page 21682
1 which was held in the corps command attended by President Karadzic,
2 General Gvero, UNPROFOR, and UN representatives."
3 Your answer was: "Yes, I can see that."
4 The next question was:
5 "So you agree that there's no reference in this document anywhere
6 to this visit of the Joint Commission that you've given evidence about?"
7 Your answer was: "Yes."
8 Do you stand by that evidence?
9 A. Yes. But I would like to say that I believe --
10 Q. Sir -- sir, you've answered the question.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the witness wants to add something which is
12 directly related to the question, you have an opportunity to do so. If
13 it's not related to the question, you are invited not to say anything.
14 So please make up your mind.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is related to the question.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I said "directly related." If it is, please
17 proceed.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that the commission that
19 visited us, that Gvero knew about that, and he was informed about the
20 entire event by the commission that had visited us. That's why there's
21 no reference to that commission in this document.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. Is it correct that this is the very first between your previous
25 statements, your previous testimony, every occasion that you've ever
Page 21683
1 discussed this commission, that you've mentioned that the -- the
2 possibility of General Gvero knowing about the commission?
3 A. I'm sure he knew.
4 Q. That wasn't my question, sir. Is this the first time that you've
5 every mentioned the possibility of General Gvero knowing about this
6 commission?
7 A. I never mentioned that before. I'm mentioning it here. But, in
8 conversations, I said that that was the case --
9 Q. Sir, you've answered my question.
10 MR. WEBER: The last matter -- and, Your Honours, before going
11 back into that, I apologise for the confusion yesterday. The incorrect
12 statement was uploaded when I called this out. It was the Mladic
13 statement and that's my fault. I'm going go back into that now and --
14 and explore his earlier Karadzic statement now.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
16 MR. WEBER:
17 Q. Sir, is it correct you still have in front of you your Mladic
18 statement that has the big letter M in front of you?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 7 of
21 65 ter 30664.
22 Q. Now, sir, if you recall, I had referred you to paragraph 31 of
23 your current Mladic statement, and now I'm going to ask you a question
24 about a paragraph from your earlier Karadzic statement.
25 Your Karadzic statement -- excuse me, strike that.
Page 21684
1 Your Mladic statement is almost verbatim from your Karadzic
2 statement with a couple of additional paragraphs.
3 What I'm going to be focussing on is the one sentence that was
4 not included in your Mladic statement from your Karadzic statement.
5 I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 27 of your
6 Karadzic statement --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Weber, what we see on the screen now, is that
8 the Mladic statement --
9 MR. WEBER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- or the Karadzic statement?
11 MR. WEBER: Thank you very much, Your Honour. It is the Karadzic
12 statement.
13 Q. So, sir, just so there is no confusion, what have you in front of
14 you on the desk is your Mladic statement and what appears on the screen
15 before you is the Karadzic statement, which I'm going to read to you
16 since there's no translation for it.
17 In paragraph 27 of the Karadzic statement, it starts the same.
18 It says:
19 "Occasionally groups of snipers armed with sniper rifles and
20 passive scopes, sniper fire at night would come to the zone of
21 responsibility of the unit opposed of [sic] us. They would fire against
22 our positions and leave the area."
23 Now in paragraph 27 of your Karadzic statement there 's an
24 additional sentence. It states:
25 "The Muslim local population regularly protested against their
Page 21685
1 stays because they knew that the Serbian side's response would follow."
2 Is this -- do you stand by this additional sentence, first of
3 all?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you explain to us the reason that you did not include this
6 sentence in your current Mladic statement?
7 A. Well, I did mention that, but this is a shortened version.
8 Q. To understand correctly, when you say you did mention that, on
9 the four occasions that you met with the Mladic Defence, you mentioned
10 this to them.
11 A. I mentioned all of that. Since the indictments for
12 General Mladic and President Karadzic are identical, my statements were
13 also identical.
14 Q. And is it then your evidence that -- well, did the Mladic
15 Defence, then, draft your statement in this case based on what you said?
16 A. When I met with them, I said what I had to say. They drafted my
17 statement and sent it to me. They may have omitted things when they were
18 typing up my statement, but that's up to them. All I'm saying is that my
19 statement was identical.
20 Q. And when you reviewed your statement, did you not ask for this
21 additional sentence to be included in this paragraph?
22 A. No, I did not. Their version was shortened so I thought, if that
23 was the case, I don't see a problem with that.
24 Q. Is it correct that you responded to these snipers who would fire
25 and leave the area with mortar fire?
Page 21686
1 A. It depended on the area from which they fired. If they fired
2 from a forest that allowed us to open only mortar fire, we did that. If
3 we could use the 64-millimetre cannon, we used that. Or 20-millimetre or
4 12-millimetre. It all depended on the position from which the sniper
5 shooter had opened fire and it all depended on our decision as to what
6 would be the best weapon to neutralise that target.
7 Q. Is it correct that Milomir Savcic interviewed you in the Karadzic
8 case and took your Karadzic statement?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution has no further questions.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Weber.
12 Before I invite the Defence to put further questions to you,
13 it's -- it's a bit -- I'm a bit puzzled in the way in which these
14 statements were created. If they are in many respects verbatim the same,
15 and, of course, the Chamber doesn't have the other ones but that's what I
16 understand, and I'm looking both to you, Mr. Weber, and to you,
17 Mr. Lukic, that they are to a large extent literally and verbatim the
18 same.
19 Now, you've given that statement in the Karadzic case. It was
20 put on paper. Now, if you are newly interviewed for days and days, then
21 I would be a bit surprised that the text that results from those
22 interviews is exactly the same in many respects as the previous one.
23 Did they write that down when you were interviewed by the
24 Mladic Defence, or did they just have the statement before them and went
25 through it together with you?
Page 21687
1 Could you explain to me how this was done.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They made notes. They did make
3 notes. I answered their questions. I remember my answers, the previous
4 ones and the ones that I gave them. I may have changed things slightly,
5 but even ten years after today, my answers would still be the same.
6 JUDGE ORIE: But did they have that old statement before them or
7 was your memory such that you could verbatim repeat your answers as they
8 appear in the Karadzic statement? These are two questions. The first is
9 whether they had that statement before them when they interviewed you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't. They may have had it
11 among their other paper, but they did not have it on them, there and
12 then.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So what you saw was them making notes, not
14 visibly --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- looking at or explicitly referring to your
17 Karadzic statement. And then, on the basis of that, an almost verbatim
18 statement was produced.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see my previous statement
20 in the Karadzic case with them, when I saw them. In any case, they just
21 put questions to me in a certain order, in particular, since the
22 indictments seemed to be nearly identical. And I simply provided my
23 answers.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear to me.
25 Mr. Mladic, there's no problem in taking your jacket off out of
Page 21688
1 the courtroom and so not disturbing the -- please be seated.
2 I have a question for you in relation to --
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before I put another question to you, I'd first give
5 an opportunity to Judge Fluegge to ask you any further questions.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We still have the statement used in the Karadzic
7 case on the screen. If I compare this page with the paragraphs 24 to 28,
8 I see another difference when I read the statement given in the Mladic
9 case.
10 Paragraph 29 of the Mladic case starts with: "The deficit of
11 professional commanding officers ..."
12 It's the same as paragraph 26 in the Karadzic statement.
13 What -- the next paragraph which follows in the Mladic statement
14 is paragraph 30 and it reads at the beginning: "I was commander of the
15 battalion for 16 months."
16 This is not included in the Karadzic statement. Do you have any
17 explanation why such an additional paragraph appears in the Mladic
18 statement, in comparison to the Karadzic statement?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They probably asked me. I provided
20 answers, and they noted them down in that manner.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I have one follow-up question in this respect as
23 well.
24 They made notes during the interviews. They prepared a
25 statement. Now, how and when did you receive that written statement
Page 21689
1 which you finally signed?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I received it in Sarajevo, in
3 Lukavica. I don't remember the date exactly that -- that their team came
4 and I signed it there and then in their office.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Was there any further discussion about the
6 statement? Did you have any -- was it sent to you by mail before you
7 were invited to sign it?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They personally brought it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: They brought it to their office where you looked at
10 it. Is that ...
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have a few more questions on a totally
13 different subject.
14 If I did understand your testimony well, you said that your
15 troops at Spicaste Stijena were not closer than 10 metres to the edge and
16 that they were subject to grenades being thrown at them and that they
17 were fired at. Is that well understood?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Our defence at
19 Spicaste Stijena was behind the ridge, the edge of the rock. Some
20 10 metres away is where my positions were. The Muslim forces, when they
21 attacked, they -- they would climb up the hill, reach the edge, and used
22 hand-held rocket-launchers, Zoljas and Osas to engage us. But first they
23 would approach us, they would come close. They launched such attacks in
24 order to take our positions. That is what I said.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now just for me to imagine, I have a -- a cliff,
Page 21690
1 more or less, because that's what Spicaste Stijena is, if I understand it
2 well, and they are at 10 metres -- well, let's say, the distance between
3 me and that door, now they climb up there. You are here in your
4 positions. They take -- they take hand-held rocket-launchers, start
5 shooting at you. And what did you do?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they would fire at the
7 trenches. We threw hand grenades. So we exclusively used hand grenades,
8 and we also called for mortar support to fire at the foot of
9 Spicaste Stijena so that they wouldn't be able to spread into a skirmish
10 line to take Spicaste Stijena. So we would actually engage their troops
11 on the other side of the ridge, of the edge.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, what you described seems to be an attack
13 aiming at taking over control of the ridge of the cliff which is there.
14 How often did that happen?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It happened on several occasions
16 and on one such occasion they even seized three of our trenches. There
17 were killed soldiers on our side, but the next night we managed to regain
18 those trenches. On one occasion they also managed to take Mala Tvrdjava
19 at Spicaste Stijena, because it was the shortest route for the Muslim
20 troops to link up with their 3rd Corps in the sector of Ilijas --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the last
22 location the witness mentioned.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last location you
24 mentioned. What the interpreters heard was that you said:
25 "... shortest route for the Muslim troops to link up with their
Page 21691
1 3rd Corps in the sector of Ilijas ..."
2 And what did you say after "sector of Ilijas"?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nabozic, it's a plateau where we
4 had positions. They also attacked us there constantly from the direction
5 of the 3rd Corps. They were trying to link up the 1st and the 3rd Corps
6 so as to encircle a part of Sarajevo such as Ilidza, Hadzici, Ilijas, and
7 Rajlovac.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I just invited you to again mention the location you
9 mentioned before.
10 Now you said this happened several --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ravni Nabozic, that is the name.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You said this happened on several occasions. Five
13 times, eight times, three times, that such an attack, an attempt to take
14 over happened?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They managed to take it twice.
16 They did try several other times but failed.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Several other times is another three times,
18 five times?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Three or four times. They attacked
20 with less intensity, thus failing to take those positions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, that is then a couple of days during the
22 whole of the conflict where these attempts were made. On the days where
23 there were no such combat operations in order to gain or to regain, you
24 always -- your men always stayed away 10 metres from the ridge?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
Page 21692
1 JUDGE ORIE: You never came any closer?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where?
3 JUDGE ORIE: At Spicaste Stijena.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not. We couldn't because we
5 were exposed to sniper fire on both our flanks. They fired at us, the
6 Muslim forces, that is, and they managed to come quite close because it
7 was a forested area. Any coming out on the ridge was very dangerous
8 because one could be killed. Only when there was fog or really bad
9 weather we could do so, but then we couldn't see anything anyway. We
10 were exposed to so much enemy fire that we simply could not come out onto
11 the ridge or do anything.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You also told us that one of your soldiers was
13 hit when picking cherries. Is that well understood?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That was 100 metres behind
15 the line, behind the trenches.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So now I do understand that you're so cautious not
17 to come any closer to the ridge but at the same time someone in the
18 middle of a armed conflict goes cherry picking and is shot at, exposes
19 himself to fire from the other side. I'm trying to imagine that you
20 hardly dare to move for 10 metres and that, at the same time, someone
21 walks around and is hit at close to that same area.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was 100 metres
23 behind the lines, where there were houses already. The settlement. He
24 was in a courtyard. People lived there.
25 JUDGE ORIE: What then did your troops do there, sitting there --
Page 21693
1 I'm talking about the days when there was no combat operation as
2 described, which may have happened five or seven or eight times. What
3 they were doing there? Just waiting, doing nothing? Did they fire at
4 anything or ...?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They stood guard in shifts,
6 guarding the line.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And nothing happens. There was never any fire
8 exchanged which was not related to such gaining or regaining territory
9 operations?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If their snipers opened fire, of
11 course, there would be an exchange. We tried to neutralise them. When
12 this lad was killed, of course, we had to return fire in order to
13 neutralize that position and respond to fire.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Can you tell me where, and we're talking about that
15 incident, where that sniper position on the opposite side was located.
16 Was it down the ridge or ... where was it from where --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, to the right. To the right of
18 my positions. Towards the repeater station, if you remember the picture
19 from yesterday, the panoramic photograph. So to the right from
20 Spicaste Stijena towards the repeater station, that is where they had
21 snipers.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Did they have snipers any further down?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They couldn't go down the cliff.
24 They could only go to the left or to the right of Spicaste Stijena.
25 There would be no point at targeting the cliff itself. They had snipers
Page 21694
1 on the left and on the right of the cliff.
2 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber has received evidence about civilians
3 being hit at Sedrenik. In your statement, paragraph 39, you say it was
4 impossible to fire on Sedrenik with infantry weapons for two reasons.
5 And I'll focus now on the first one. Firstly, because of the distance.
6 Was the distance to Sedrenik an obstacle to fire at anyone
7 located in Sedrenik?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We discussed sniping. We didn't
9 discuss any kind of fire. We talked about snipers.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine. My question is: Was the distance --
11 by the way, the statement says "infantry weapons." I read it to you
12 literally.
13 "There were no trained snipers in my battalion. It was
14 impossible to fire on Sedrenik with infantry weapons for two reasons ..."
15 So that combines snipers and infantry weapons, although, the
16 distance, the obstacle of the distance is not specifically related to
17 sniping but is put in the context of the use of infantry weapons.
18 Now, could you tell me, snipers or other infantry weapons, was
19 the distance such that you could not hit with an infantry weapon from
20 Spicaste Stijena someone who was located in Sedrenik?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our snipers could engage at
22 800 metres maximum, in order to hit the target. Anything beyond that did
23 not guarantee any kind of hit. It was impossible to reach the target.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you say that all of Sedrenik is at a
25 distance of more than 800 metres from Spicaste Stijena? And for the
Page 21695
1 record, I said: "... all of Sedrenik is at a distance of more than 800
2 metres from Spicaste Stijena."
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not along the entire edge. The
4 intersection at Sedrenik is 1350 metres away from Spicaste Stijena as I
5 specified in the statement. The intersection.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's the reason why I'm asking you whether all of
7 Sedrenik and not just an intersection, which I do not know which one
8 you're referring to. I do not know whether you measured the distance
9 accurately or not. But my question is whether all of Sedrenik is at a
10 distance of more than 800 metres from Spicaste Stijena.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not all of it. In certain parts,
12 they were closer, but there was no one in the houses in those areas. In
13 any case, the empty houses were mostly Serbian houses and the people had
14 moved out.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And there were no houses where people were living?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were some, but I don't know
17 how many exactly.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So what you said a second ago, "there was no one in
19 the houses in those areas," is incorrect.
20 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Serbian houses, sir.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I read the whole of the answer.
23 "In certain parts, they were closer, but there was no one in the
24 houses in those areas. In any case, the empty houses were mostly Serbian
25 houses and the people had moved out."
Page 21696
1 This is -- the beginning of the answer is quite clear. All
2 houses were empty. And then it's further specified in a rather confusing
3 way.
4 Why did you say that these houses were empty? What was the
5 relevance of that?
6 MR. LUKIC: We ask for audio to be checked.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's -- of course, if there's any problem
8 there then, as always, Mr. Lukic, you know that I'm, myself, very much
9 interested in detecting if there's any translation issue.
10 Now why did you consider it relevant that those houses were
11 empty? Why did you mention that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serb inhabitants had moved out.
13 I said that the Serbian homes were empty.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I heard what you said. But why did you refer
15 to the houses being empty? I didn't ask for it.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see the point of the
17 question? It's not clear to me.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I'll tell you what the point of the question is. I
19 wondered whether you were explaining to me why it would be of no use
20 anyhow to fire at those houses if there's no one there. I wondered what
21 came to your mind that you considered it important to tell us that the
22 houses were empty.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I thought -- I had in mind
24 the Serbian people who had moved from there. I didn't have in mind the
25 Muslim population. This is what it concerned. Nothing else.
Page 21697
1 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you about the distance between
2 Spicaste Stijena and houses -- Sedrenik. I asked Sedrenik. I did not
3 even mention houses but ...
4 And then you said the houses were empty anyhow. What's the
5 relevance of that? Was that that there was no need to fire at them or
6 what -- what else could be the relevance of bringing this to our
7 attention?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We never opened fire at civilians.
9 I don't know why you're asking me this. To my mind, there's no point to
10 this question.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. Whether there's a point to
12 the question is for me to decide. I didn't --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The witness
14 concluded his answer by saying: In my mind, it is a provocative
15 question.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not provoking you; I'm examining you.
17 We started with your answer that it was too far anyhow to fire at
18 Sedrenik with infantry weapons. I then asked you, after you had
19 explained that the range was not beyond 800 metres, whether all of
20 Sedrenik was away from more than 800 metres. And then you start
21 explaining that the houses in Sedrenik were empty, and I'm asking myself:
22 What triggered you to bring to my attention that the houses in Sedrenik
23 were empty.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the Serbian population
25 had moved out. The Serbian homes were along the edge. It didn't concern
Page 21698
1 anything else. That was my understanding. I don't know what yours is.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And what's the relevance of Serbian houses being
3 empty? What's the relevance of that for us?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was important because they could
5 no longer live there. They had to retreat to their territory, and that
6 is the part they were defending. They were at positions behind their
7 houses.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I move on.
9 Do you agree with me that the distance in itself was not an
10 obstacle to engage parts of Sedrenik with infantry weapons?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was no obstacle but one could
12 not engage precisely. It is impossible to be precise beyond 800 metres.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But I think you agreed with me that the distance
14 was, for parts of Sedrenik, less than 800 metres. So you could be
15 precise in targeting anything that was closer than 800 metres?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to target just anything, only
17 military targets. Civilians were not targeted. You cannot put that
18 under the same topic.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't talk about civilians. My question was
20 whether you could target at less than 800 metres with precision with
21 infantry weapons. I wasn't saying whether you were targeting a -- a
22 house, a cow, a military sniper nest. I didn't say anything. Less than
23 800 metres, that's the only thing I said.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not receive interpretation.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll repeat. I wasn't referring to targeting
Page 21699
1 civilians. I was just asking about hitting a target at a distance less
2 than 800 metres.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One can engage.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know whether there were any Muslims still
5 living in parts of Sedrenik less than 800 metres from Spicaste Stijena?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There probably were, but I did not
7 check.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Have you any knowledge about shields of whatever
9 sort being erected in Sedrenik with the obvious purpose of protecting
10 yourself against fire coming from Spicaste Stijena? Shields from
11 whatever material made.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall that. I don't
13 remember any.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber received evidence that that was how
15 people locally protected themselves against incoming fire. And now I'm
16 talking about civilians. Does this ring any bell to you?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please repeat your question.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I said that we received evidence that people locally
19 protected themselves against being fired at, and I'm talking about
20 civilians. Any knowledge about such measures taken by the local
21 population that remained?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, possibly, in terms of
23 exchange of gun-fire, of course, there had to be protection so that a
24 stray bullet in combat would not threaten somebody's life. They were
25 probably trying to protect their own lives because they were close to the
Page 21700
1 separation line.
2 JUDGE ORIE: 700 metres away, sometimes.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that happened too because the
4 lines were nearby. There was 100 metres between my positions and the
5 positions of the Army of the Federation. In exchanging gun-fire, of
6 course --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm talking about civilians at a distance of
8 approximately 8 -- 700 metres from your lines. I'm not talking about
9 others. I was talking about civilians, as I explained clearly to you,
10 erecting shields to protect themselves. That's something different from
11 what you describe; that is, the combatants protecting themselves.
12 Distance of 700 metres. Were you aware of that?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, I explained it nicely.
14 When there's an exchange of gun-fire, not only sniper fire, machine-gun
15 fire and any other kind of fire, and shooting from hunting guns, I'm
16 talking about exchange of gun-fire. The population, nobody could stop a
17 bullet, so when there was exchange of gun-fire, people could be hit if
18 they did not protect themselves and if they went out of their houses,
19 especially the side where the fire is coming from. I mean, if a
20 machine-gun is firing, you cannot -- well, you know what it's like. It's
21 a front line. There's an exchange of gun-fire. People had to protect
22 their homes and the paths that they had to take.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you agree with me that you would do that only
24 if it was a frequent occurrence that bullets would come in? I mean, for
25 a stray bullet once a week or once a month, it would make no sense to ...
Page 21701
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Opening fire was not only once,
2 whatever. A cease-fire would go on for a few days and then again, and it
3 changed all the time. It wasn't really that way. There was fighting and
4 exchanges of gun-fire all the time. So they could not put up protection
5 every day and then take it down and then put it up again. Once
6 protection was there, it was supposed to be there.
7 JUDGE ORIE: But I understood your testimony to be that there was
8 no visibility. You could not even look down into the valley. And it was
9 only to the left and to the right that you were firing at their sniper
10 positions, not down into the valley. You didn't even have a view on
11 that, you told us, because you were 10 metres away from the ridge.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, please, the front is wider. We
13 were just talking about Spicaste Stijena. There's the right side and the
14 left side. They did not attack only there. They attacked along the
15 entire front line. But the main point was to get to Spicaste Stijena.
16 That was easier to access. When there is an attack, then it's a frontal
17 attack. It not against one point only.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So they came right in front of Spicaste Stijena and
19 you were firing in that direction as well?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, please. When there's an
21 attack, the attack takes place along the entire front line. Please --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- we -- Mr. -- witness --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- tell me.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- we discussed the attacks, over a long period of
25 time, perhaps five, six, or seven days. I'm talking about the days when
Page 21702
1 there was no attack. I'm talking about those days.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no firing then. There
3 was no shooting then. There was no need.
4 JUDGE ORIE: But the Chamber received evidence that people were
5 hit at the -- those days as well. And that they protected themselves
6 against that kind of fire. If you can't tell us anything about it or if
7 you do not have another explanation as to the one you gave us, we'll
8 leave it to that. But I would want to give you an opportunity to further
9 explain to us that situation.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, give me a document. I can't
11 see anything.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm telling you what we received as evidence.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it doesn't have to be
14 correct.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will further assess whether the evidence
16 is accurate or not.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: We are a little bit beyond the time where we usually
19 take a break, but Judge Fluegge has one further short question for you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Some minutes ago you said:
21 "People had to protect their homes and the paths they were --
22 that they had to take."
23 What kind of protection did you see at that time?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they protected it either with
25 sandbags or fences. I mean -- I mean, logs, wood. I cannot say.
Page 21703
1 Different things. Whatever they had. They tried to make do, the people
2 who stayed behind.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means you were aware of such shields to
4 protect the local population; correct?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I saw that they had
6 something. I mean, that really could be seen.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break and -- could the witness first be
9 escorted out of the courtroom.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: And we resume at 11.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you give us an indication as to how
15 much time you would need for the re-examination of the witness?
16 MR. LUKIC: With maps that he has to mark, probably a bit more
17 than half an hour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could start already with preparing the
19 maps, to ask Madam Registrar to be on standby to show to the witness
20 what was it --
21 MR. LUKIC: Yeah. We need first D474.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 MR. LUKIC: We will need top part of the city. North-east,
24 actually. If we can enlarge that part.
25 Actually, am I given the right to --
Page 21704
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps the --
2 MR. LUKIC: -- continue or you --
3 JUDGE ORIE: First we'd like to tell the witness that you'll now
4 be further examined by Mr. Lukic, Mr. Gengo, and one of the things he
5 will start with is to seek the markings on the maps you made in another
6 case, to make it better visible. So that's a purely technical matter
7 with which he'll start.
8 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, once again.
10 A. Good day.
11 Q. Before you walked in today, we were instructed by the Court to
12 mark the maps again because, indeed, it is barely legible in e-court.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in a bit more? Could
14 you please go right.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And could the usher already assist the witness.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 [In English] I think if we save, Your Honours, if we save this,
18 it's already marked and it's better visible.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we all agree on where the line starts. I
20 see --
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- the line a bit better.
23 Perhaps the witness could -- you marked on this map, Witness, the
24 battalion's line of defence. Could you perhaps do that again so that
25 it's better visible for us.
Page 21705
1 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the map now marked again by the
3 witness would receive number ...?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Number D479, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
6 Could we then have D475, I take it, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, please. So D475, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Usually maps take slightly longer to ...
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you give instructions as to focus
11 on what part of this map.
12 MR. LUKIC: Again, the same part probably.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Same part.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, yeah. We can stop.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gengo, on this map as well, you marked the
16 positions of the artillery pieces that belonged to your unit. Could you
17 please try to find this again on the map and then could you make the
18 lines thicker?
19 A. I can barely see it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any position further down? I can't see
21 that. But if you take the three now blue dots, if you -- that's one I
22 thought I -- the Chamber had detected as well.
23 It's these four positions, Witness, which you marked, or did we
24 forget one?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
Page 21706
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document D475 as marked by the witness receives
3 number D480, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: D480 is admitted into evidence.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. Mr. Gengo, I will start from the end; that is to say, I will
8 start with today.
9 I don't know how clear it's been. You spoke about a few attacks
10 of Muslim forces when they took over your positions and a few attacks
11 when they did not manage to do that. As for such attacks, would you
12 characterise them as offensives by the Muslim forces?
13 A. Well, probably, probably these were their offensives, because
14 they had their objective to link up with the other forces. That is what
15 they had intended all along. Now, it is well known what their ultimate
16 objective was.
17 Q. Apart from these offensives, and Judge Orie asked you about this
18 as well, tell us, was fire opened from their positions against your
19 positions?
20 A. Yes, yes, all the time there were provocations, especially when
21 teams of snipers came, probably from other units. Snipers that were
22 trained and they came with special instruments, and they opened fire
23 against my positions day and night.
24 Q. What about your snipers? Could they fire during the night?
25 A. No, we did not have the right instruments for that.
Page 21707
1 Q. Could you give us an example of when they fired during the night?
2 A. Well, I don't remember the exact day -- date, I mean, but I know
3 that on that day, in the area of Hresa, they killed three people,
4 Mihajlo Jovicic, Karisik Nedjo, and Cicko [phoen] Maletic. All three
5 were hit in the head during the night, pitch-dark. This was special
6 ammunition, special snipers, so the victims did not save -- did not stand
7 a chance. There was no way of having their lives saved. They were hit
8 in the head, in the region of the eye, et cetera.
9 Q. At the time, at the time --
10 A. Yes, go along -- go ahead.
11 Q. Your units, who had better weapons, the Serb side or the Muslim
12 side?
13 A. As far as snipers are concerned, they had much better weapons and
14 people who were much better trained because they were equipped probably
15 by the international community and I don't know who else. They had
16 equipment that was far more precise and stronger than ours.
17 Q. Now let us leave sniper activity and offensives on the side. How
18 often was fire opened at your positions at Spicaste Stijena from
19 automatic rifles?
20 A. It couldn't have been automatic rifles. That was not possible.
21 It was only snipers, from left and right.
22 Q. All right. You said to us that Muslim positions were about
23 100 metres away from you.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. These empty houses that had been abandoned by the Serbs in
Page 21708
1 Sedrenik, how far away were they from your positions? Do you know now?
2 A. Well, it depends. It depends. In the area of Faletici, they
3 were nearby. That was right in front. And as for Spicaste Stijena, it
4 was down there below the hill. I cannot say exactly. Say, 300,
5 400 metres away. From the top of Spicaste Stijena, that is.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
7 MR. WEBER: Just to interrupt. I do not believe it's clear on
8 the transcript what the location was that was just mentioned. I believe
9 I heard it, but I didn't -- I don't want to repeat it right now.
10 I'm referring to line 18 of page 31.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, usually if we find such a sign, it means that
12 they'll work on it, and I think the witness -- at least it was -- I heard
13 Faletici. But that's -- usually if there's such a sign, the transcript
14 will be revised later.
15 Let's proceed.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. Judge Orie asked whether you could precisely target targets that
18 were 700 metres away from your positions, and the snipers, so -- please
19 just wait for my question to finish.
20 From your positions, from your trenches --
21 A. I don't know what area --
22 Q. The other side of Spicaste Stijena.
23 A. No, no.
24 Q. Could you fire at targets that were 100 metres away on the other
25 side because of the configuration of the ground, the terrain?
Page 21709
1 A. I think on the left-hand side Spicaste Stijena.
2 Q. No, the other side of Spicaste Stijena.
3 A. Well, no. Left side, right side, there were woods there. It was
4 a forest. Who would you fire at? I could not see at all.
5 Q. You were asked about obstacles and protection of the population
6 in terms of optical visibility. In Sedrenik, from Spicaste Stijena,
7 could you see these protections, these shields? Not from
8 Spicaste Stijena but, rather, from your positions.
9 A. From our trenches?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you see such protective barriers around Serbian houses?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. From your trenches?
15 A. Yes, one could see them.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, in that context, could I ask the witness
17 again to -- I'll read one of your previous answers about Serbian or other
18 houses.
19 I asked you:
20 "Have you any knowledge about shields of whatever sort being
21 erected in Sedrenik with the obvious purpose of protecting yourself
22 against fire coming from Spicaste Stijena? Shields from whatever
23 material made."
24 Your answer was:
25 "I don't recall that. I don't remember any."
Page 21710
1 And now, since then, you started explaining first to
2 Judge Fluegge and now again to Mr. Lukic, that you saw that at Serb
3 houses. And I'm a bit puzzled by at one moment saying that, I don't
4 recall that, I don't remember any, and then to give a -- an explanation,
5 not once but now even for a second time, what you saw exactly.
6 Could you clarify why, at one moment, you say you don't know, and
7 another moment explain in detail what you saw?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the trenches on
9 Spicaste Stijena you can't see anything, but from the left side you could
10 see them. From other positions you could, but not from the trenches on
11 Spicaste Stijena because you couldn't see anything from the trenches.
12 Ten metres away from the trenches, the visibility stopped.
13 JUDGE ORIE: My question was not from what you could see from
14 your trenches in Spicaste Stijena. I asked you: "Have you any knowledge
15 about shields of whatever sort being erected in Sedrenik ..." I didn't
16 ask you whether you saw it from the trench, whether you heard about it,
17 nothing of the kind. You said, no, "I don't recall that. I don't
18 remember any."
19 You didn't say, I couldn't see it from here, or I heard about it
20 there, or I could see it. The two answers seem to be in strong
21 contradiction, and I would like to give you an opportunity to explain why
22 I hear answers which I feel are contradicting.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was talking about
24 Spicaste Stijena from which you couldn't see anything. But you could see
25 things from the side, and you could see it from the reports of my
Page 21711
1 officers that were on the lines taken up by my unit, and I learned that
2 from them.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. May be things will become
5 clearer if we, once again, look at P3, page 30. When the document
6 appears on the screen, I will ask the usher to assist the witness in
7 drawing Serb positions and other Serb positions, if they can be seen in
8 the photo. That is, not only the positions of his units but of other
9 units as well. I'm interested to find out whether Sedrenik could be
10 observed from other positions.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
12 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, just so we have some clarity. If we
13 could use two different colours if they're going to be different types of
14 forces discussed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Maybe -- yeah. Do we have a different colour than
16 red?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have blue as you may have sen.
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, but is it on? I don't know ... how do you turn
19 it on.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could the usher assist the witness and you give
21 instructions, Mr. Lukic, what colour to use --
22 MR. LUKIC: If it's the other colour already on, that's fine. We
23 can proceed. I see they are nodding so it's fine.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see anything here.
Page 21712
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now the picture is rather dark. That's a bit of a
2 problem.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can you tilt the screen a little bit?
4 Q. Maybe you will see better.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I tried that with mine and it's not -- it's not
6 very ...
7 MR. LUKIC: Yeah. But if I'm watching from above, it's much
8 better. If you tilt -- can you tilt the screen? No.
9 JUDGE ORIE: There's a slight difference. Perhaps you put the
10 question first and before the witness starts marking we'll find out
11 whether he will be able to make any such marking.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thanks.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gengo, look at the photo. Can you mark Serb
14 positions? Not only yours, but others as well, on the other side. Were
15 there any other Serb positions that you can see in this photo? I'm
16 talking about the time when you were the commander of your unit.
17 A. Only from Debelo Brdo where an MAP was deployed. If you had
18 binoculars you could observe things.
19 Q. Can you see those positions in the photo?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Very well, then. I did my best. But if you can't, you can't.
22 A. No, the image is too dark. I can't do anything.
23 Q. Forget the photo in front of you.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It can be removed.
25 Q. Yesterday the Prosecutor -- the Prosecutor asked you --
Page 21713
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And I'm going to call up P4610 in
2 e-court.
3 Q. Here, we can see that UNPROFOR representatives detected fire, and
4 it says here that 70 per cent of -- as you can see in the text, was on
5 the separation line.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And there's a reference to explosions. And further down, it says
8 that there was a tense exchange of fire in Ilidza throughout the day.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know whether UNPROFOR troops recorded 20-millimetre
11 machine-gun shots and Bofors [Realtime transcript read in error "buffer"]
12 shots as explosions?
13 A. I suppose so, because every round from a 40-millimetre weapon
14 is -- disperses and looks like an explosion.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
16 MR. WEBER: Objection. Calls for speculation.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No. It's not calling for speculation. Although the
18 answer seems to be -- to contain some speculation but not because the
19 question is -- the question was whether he knew why this was recorded in
20 the way as they did.
21 If you know, tell us. But if you have just thoughts about it,
22 then please tell us that you don't know.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please repeat the question.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. My question was: Do you know whether UNPROFOR troops recorded
Page 21714
1 20-millimetre machine-gun shots and Bofors, which is a 40-millimetre
2 weapon, as explosions?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you first take us exactly where we read that,
4 Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: We should hear the audio. Now can I see that it's
6 not -- I said Bofors; here it says "buffer" --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Where are we, in what paragraph?
8 MR. LUKIC: It's 36th page, 22nd line. It says --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Recorded. But where do I find the recording
10 exactly. Could you take me -- is that on the document on the screen?
11 MR. LUKIC: No, no, it's in the transcript. In the transcript,
12 sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said:
14 "Do you know whether UNPROFOR troops recorded 20-millimetre
15 machine-gun shots and buffer shots as explosions?
16 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, but it wasn't "buffer shots," it's "Bofors."
17 It's type of the gun.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay, that now is -- okay. So whether they did
19 that. Do you know whether they recorded it as explosions? Did they or
20 did they not?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could record shots from
22 40-millimetre Bofors, from 30-millimetre Praga, and from PATs, which were
23 20-millimetre calibre, because their rounds fragmented when they hit
24 their targets.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. The first question was whether they did
Page 21715
1 that, yes or no. That was the question, Mr. Lukic.
2 Do you know whether they recorded 20-millimetre machine-gun shots
3 and Bofors shots as explosions? Did they record them like that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no 20-millimetre
5 machine-gun. Only a cannon can have 20-millimetre calibre.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then, Mr. Lukic, then you have to reconsider
7 your question because the witness says that you're asking for something
8 that doesn't exist.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. The PAT that you mentioned, or the anti-aircraft 20-millimetre
11 gun, how many rounds can it fire in a minute?
12 A. 600 rounds in a minute, in theory.
13 Q. So its fire is a burst of fire, like a machine-gun?
14 A. Yes, a burst of fire.
15 Q. And what about the Swedish gun, Bofors. Does it also have a
16 burst of fire?
17 A. No. Individual fire not bursts of fire. It works on the
18 principle of a pistol. That's how Bofors acts.
19 Q. However, since you are not sure whether they recorded those shots
20 or not --
21 A. No, I don't --
22 Q. I thought maybe somebody from UNPROFOR put you in the picture.
23 A. No, they didn't. If they recorded such fire, they could do it
24 based on the explosions resulting from such fire.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up P542 in e-court.
Page 21716
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And both speakers are invited to make a pause
2 between question and answer in the next question.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. This document was issued on the 5th of February, 1994. We're
5 talking about a document now. And this document refers to the fire which
6 was opened on the day when the incident at Markale took place, the first
7 incident in Markale.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The time of the document is one o'clock, 13 minutes and
10 34 seconds in the morning.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Let's look at the second page. The date is still the same but
13 the time is 09.19.51 a.m. This time precedes the time on which the
14 incident at Markale is said to have happened; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Are you done with the document,
17 Mr. Lukic?
18 MR. LUKIC: If you have questions, you can take over.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because we looked at -- this is now the second
20 one you showed. And let me just have a look.
21 MR. LUKIC: We can go back to the first one --
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Perhaps give me ... I'm just trying to
23 find the time which you referred to --
24 MR. LUKIC: It's on the top right corner, first line.
25 JUDGE ORIE: First line. I have on this -- the document which is
Page 21717
1 now -- yes.
2 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hm.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Okay. Could we now look back at the first
4 page. Look ... I'm looking because there's also the 4th of February is
5 mentioned there as well. I see both a reference to the 5th and to the
6 4th, in the evening, and I had no opportunity yet to read the content.
7 Just trying to understand exactly the gist of what ...
8 MR. LUKIC: The reporting obviously was the latest time. But the
9 events, you are right, are even from the 4th of February. Because the
10 update to UNMO Sarajevo was on the 4th of February, 1994. It says on the
11 document.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. You would say both are
13 proceeding the time of the -- of the shell that fell on the Markale, and
14 apparently one is a report which was prepared at the night of the 4th and
15 most likely then sent in the early morning hours of the 5th. Whereas the
16 other is sent later that same morning but still well before midday.
17 MR. LUKIC: That's right, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I -- I'm with you again. Please proceed.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Weber was on his feet.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Weber.
22 MR. WEBER: It's okay. I see that the Chamber was able to work
23 it through. I just would note that the reporting period which they
24 relate to, I believe, is mentioned in the first line of the text, the
25 time that it correlates to.
Page 21718
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It takes us sometimes a bit of time to get on
2 top of matters.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic. And, again, the gist of it is to
4 describe the situation as it was reported before what happened. Okay.
5 Thanks. Please proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gengo, with the exception of using snipers,
8 did your unit use mortars to respond to sniper fire when such a mortar
9 was in a forested area; and did you also use the 20- or 40-millimetre
10 anti-aircraft guns to respond?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it "yes" to both questions or one of them?
13 There are two questions there. Mortars and 20- or 40--millimetre guns.
14 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, Mr. Gengo already explained that if the sniper
15 was in the woods, they would respond with the mortars.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. But you're asking two questions in one
17 question, Mr. Lukic, and when the answer is just "yes," we don't know
18 what it's a "yes" to. So if you can break your questions --
19 MR. LUKIC: I will. Thank you.
20 Q. [Interpretation] When there was a sniper in the woods, you
21 usually tried to neutralise it by using mortars; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. If sniper fire came from enemy lines, did you also use the
24 anti-aircraft guns?
25 A. Yes. Sometimes they barricaded themselves in abandoned houses,
Page 21719
1 and then we had to use anti-aircraft guns. It all depended on where they
2 were.
3 Q. Do you only say that regarding Spicaste Stijena?
4 A. No. The entire area of responsibility of my battalion. The
5 sector was some 9 kilometres long along the line.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's briefly look at P4476 next.
8 Q. You were asked about the document yesterday.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the B/C/S, it is page 6, while in
10 the English version page 8. It is the 26th of January, 1994. The
11 SRK Command issued this order.
12 Q. You were asked about the ordered offensive operations.
13 A. Yes, go ahead.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to move to the next page in
15 the English because we will be referring to item 5 that we can see at the
16 bottom of the page in the B/C/S version. In particular, 5.1.
17 Q. Yesterday you explained the concept of offensive as opposed to
18 improving one's tactical position.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In item 5, it reads: "Task of units." And in 5.1, we see the
21 Smbr with --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What does it stand for, the 1st Smbr?
24 A. The 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Lukic wait with
Page 21720
1 his questions and repeat his current question.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you're invited to make a pause between
3 answer and question and could you please repeat your last question.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Let's now go through it one by one. Let me read it out.
6 5.1: With main body of forces and with auxiliary forces, the
7 1st Smbr carries out a decisive defence for the following zone: To the
8 right of Kneginjac, and Pavlovac, to the left, the right bank of the
9 Zeljeznica river, with the following task: In active defence and
10 cooperation with the 1st Rpbr and the 2nd Slpbr --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness kindly
12 repeat.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I, first of all, invite you to wait a
14 while after Mr. Lukic has put his question to you and only then answer,
15 and could you please repeat your last answer because it was lost.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You expanded the abbreviations.
18 A. Yes. What do you want me to do?
19 Q. Tell us again what does the 1st Rpbr stand for and the 2nd Slpbr?
20 A. The 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade and the 2nd Sarajevo
21 Light Infantry Brigade. These three brigades defended the area specified
22 before in the order. And it says further down: Improve the tactical
23 position held by the brigade -- brigade's forces.
24 Q. So what is the difference between offensive actions and improving
25 position?
Page 21721
1 A. An offensive action has its goal to take a location or a town.
2 Defensive action means defending one's position. Improving one's
3 tactical position means that, for example, the enemy dug some trenches
4 close to our positions and we had to push them back to secure our
5 positions and move them further away from the area we are defending.
6 Q. Thank you. We are done with this part. I wanted to ask you
7 briefly about something else.
8 The Prosecutor obviously denies that an UNPROFOR commission and
9 the VRS -- and a VRS commission ever attended this scene. That is to say
10 that they never visited the positions of your units on the
11 6th of February, 1994. We saw an order -- actually,
12 General Milovanovic's request that a mixed commission be formed, and you
13 were also shown this document -- the next document which I want to have
14 brought up on the screen.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I still have it under 65 ter number
16 10.000.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Just for the record, Your Honours, this is
18 Exhibit P6536.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Take a look at the underlined part.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And just before that, it says the following:
23 "Since the UNPROFOR Command did not reply to the request of the
24 VRS GS by 1800 hours as we had asked in the request, I telephoned the
25 UNPROFOR command in Kiseljak and was then told by General Ramsey, the
Page 21722
1 Chief of Staff of the UNPROFOR command for the former BH, that the Muslim
2 side refused to take part in the establishment and work of a joint
3 military expert commission."
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would you agree that there is a reference made in the document by
6 the refusal of the Muslim side?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that UNPROFOR did not refuse to co-operate.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness kindly
10 repeat his answer.
11 MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, the witness was invited to repeat the
13 answer because, again and again, you are overlapping, and the answer was
14 not recorded and not interpreted.
15 MR. LUKIC: My mistake, actually. Obviously.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gengo --
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I have a question for you, Mr. Gengo.
19 Can you read the last paragraph of that document where it says:
20 "The UNPROFOR command refuses to have the UNPROFOR Chief of Staff
21 and the Chief of Staff of the so-called BH Army visit the crime scene
22 together with the VRS Chief of Staff to ascertain the consequences and
23 circumstances of this tragedy."
24 So we're being told there that UNPROFOR refuses.
25 MR. LUKIC: Not the UNPROFOR.
Page 21723
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Look at the last --
2 MR. LUKIC: The Chief of Staff [overlapping speakers] --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it. But, please, in the
4 upper part it says that it was upon the request of the Main Staff of the
5 VRS command to UNPROFOR to have a joint commission established and so on
6 and so forth. However, the Muslim army command refused. They refused
7 UNPROFOR's request. It was rejected based on the Muslim side rejection.
8 It wasn't that UNPROFOR rejected it first.
9 We asked them both to participate but the Muslims refused. They
10 were probably afraid of the truth because it would have been proven that
11 Markale, as many other incidents in Sarajevo, were staged by them. Just
12 like the case in Vase Miskina Street, and then Markale, then Tuzla, then
13 Sefer Halilovic's apartment. It was done by the same group. They were
14 probably waiting for something else. They staged it in order to prove
15 their point and lay the blame on someone's -- someone else.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Judge Moloto asked you to comment on the last sentence. Did you
18 refer to that sentence as well, or did you only refer to the middle part?
19 Apparently it -- we can read that the UNPROFOR Command refuses to have
20 the UNPROFOR Chief of Staff and the Chief of Staff of the so-called
21 BH Army visit the crime scene together with the VRS Chief of Staff to
22 ascertain the consequences and circumstances of this tragedy.
23 A. Please. Since the Muslim side refused and did not respond, then
24 UNPROFOR decided to write what they did. In any case, it was the Muslim
25 side that refused. They refused UNPROFOR's request to have a joint
Page 21724
1 commission attend the scene. So they refused.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, almost all of what is said now we heard
3 that yesterday as well. It's -- it's slightly unclear to me what the
4 issue is. It is clear from this document and the witness tells us, and I
5 tend to agree with him, that it's clear from this document that the
6 BiH Army refused to be part of such a commission. There is some dispute
7 about whether the last lines express that UNPROFOR did not want to take
8 part at all or that they did not want to take part at the level of
9 Chief of Staff, that is, at least -- seems to be from the language not
10 without ambiguity. But what now is -- we established all that yesterday,
11 I think it was. What is the issue especially about this latter part?
12 Because a lot of attention was paid yesterday to whether, on the 6th,
13 such a committee attended the scene.
14 But what now is the issue, again, going through this ambiguity in
15 the text? What do we have to understand from this repeated -- that since
16 there is no clear refusal on all levels to participate, that from this
17 letter, we cannot conclude that UNPROFOR was not there on the 6th. Is
18 that what you are seeking to establish?
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's clear to me. It was clear to me yesterday
21 as well, but if -- please proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: What we also want to draw Your Honours' attention is
23 that there is a document, P538, also shown to the witness yesterday, from
24 which it is clear that UNPROFOR took part in this investigation. And we
25 know from the record of this case that UNPROFOR did take part in this
Page 21725
1 investigation. And ...
2 JUDGE ORIE: I need to have another look at P538. I'll do that.
3 Please proceed meanwhile.
4 MR. LUKIC: We can call on our screens P538.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No, I can -- if you have any further questions for
6 the witness, okay; but if not, I'll just look at 538. I don't need to
7 have it on the screen because I've got my own screen, Mr. Lukic --
8 MR. LUKIC: Okay, but I want that document to follow up.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine. If you have any further questions.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We're interested in item 5.
11 Q. Mr. Gengo, in item 5, it reads that members of the commission
12 referred to here, meaning that it is not the commission we discussed of
13 the 6th but another UNPROFOR commission --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber was on his feet.
17 MR. WEBER: I was just going to -- I believe Mr. Lukic just
18 quickly corrected himself. I was going to object to the form of the
19 question.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, if that's --
21 MR. LUKIC: I haven't finished the question yet.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. So this commission referred to in this document and this document
25 were offered as evidence, and it does not record the visit of a
Page 21726
1 commission on the 6th.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
3 MR. WEBER: I am going to object to the word "commission." I
4 don't see where that appears in this document.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you please put to the witness
6 literally the portion you draw his attention to.
7 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hm.
8 Q. [Interpretation] It says here "the investigation team." I assume
9 that there are several members involved, if it's called a team. In
10 item 5, it says that members of that team arrived in Sarajevo on the 10th
11 of February.
12 Is it clear from this document that this team that is arriving
13 only on the 10th could not have recorded anything that happened on the
14 6th of February?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- what exactly -- team members arrived. What
17 team are we talking about exactly, Mr. Lukic? Could you guide me.
18 MR. LUKIC: In -- in -- in -- under number 3, it says
19 composition -- the composition of the investigation team --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Of the investigation team, yes, yes. Okay.
21 MR. LUKIC: -- is shown in Annex A.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Yes. Please proceed.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
24 Q. [Interpretation] And what was put to you was that on page -- just
25 a moment, please.
Page 21727
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it's page 40 in e-court.
2 [In English] Is it page 40 in English version? On the screen?
3 Because I have ERN number, four digits, 4137. No, we have to see the
4 ERN number to be able to ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: Seems to be last four digits 4752. And we have two
6 ERN numbers on it. One at the bottom which is 4132 and the other one is
7 at the top which is an R number, 4752.
8 MR. LUKIC: We have moved forward five pages. The fifth page
9 after this one.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Page --
11 MR. LUKIC: Then 45 obviously. That's the page we need.
12 JUDGE ORIE: There at the bottom of the page we find the last
13 four digits, 4137, and at the top, 4757.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we have the corresponding page in B/C/S.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's not the right one. There are two
16 translations in e-court in relation to this.
17 MR. LUKIC: But I can read the English paragraph. Actually, only
18 the top part of the fourth paragraph, so we don't need a translation.
19 The witness can hear the translation.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please do.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I'm going to read this out to you after I tell you what it is.
23 The Prosecution pointed out yesterday that the commission that
24 you spoke about did not go out and this is what this document says. I
25 quote --
Page 21728
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The B/C/S is now on the screen.
2 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Mm-hm.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. So it's the last paragraph here in the B/C/S version. You'll see
6 it here on the left-hand side. It says:
7 "Colonel Cvetkovic then discussed numerous aspects of the
8 incident in theoretical terms and offered his personal opinion concerning
9 the validity of events as portrayed by the media. He had no specific
10 evidence to offer of direct relevance to the investigation."
11 In this way also an effort was made to show that there was no
12 such commission.
13 Now let us look at document ...
14 MR. WEBER: Is it time for the break?
15 JUDGE ORIE: It is approximately time for the break, but I
16 wouldn't interrupt Mr. Lukic in the middle of what seems to be a question
17 which is related to several documents.
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I would not interrupt you at this very moment.
20 MR. LUKIC: Five minutes, probably, even less, to finish this.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that's -- let's finish it.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
23 [Interpretation] So -- [In English] 65 ter number 18907.
24 [Interpretation] Actually, this is what it says. Cvetkovic is
25 providing an explanation why -- I mean, it's the paragraph underneath
Page 21729
1 number 5. It says: "Members of the commission" -- so he is calling this
2 team "the commission." It says here underneath paragraph number 5:
3 "Members of the commission asked me as the representative of the
4 VRS to provide technical details showing that the Serb side had not
5 fired" --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The English page is not
7 the right page. It's the next page.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we have a numbering starting twice.
9 Perhaps we go to the next page in English and see whether it's the second
10 series number 5 that you were reading from.
11 MR. LUKIC: Can we --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Next page, please, in both languages.
13 MR. LUKIC: No, no, in B/C/S it's correct page.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's then a -- well, then could we move further
15 down in B/C/S. Move to the --
16 MR. LUKIC: In the English it's in the middle of the page. You
17 can see it: "... as a representative of the VRS ..."
18 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, that's -- yes --
19 MR. LUKIC: Below the 5, yeah.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't consider that to be 5. 5 starts for me
21 with the stabilising fin. Below 5.
22 MR. LUKIC: Below 5.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Yes.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is what it says further on --
25 [In English] The next paragraph in English too.
Page 21730
1 Q. [Interpretation] "Because the information on the explosion site
2 was not available to me (the width and depth of the crater, the position
3 of the stabilizing fin the direction and angle of descent), I tried to
4 find out about it in informal conversations."
5 And then number one says:
6 "The commission did not determine with certainty the direction
7 from which the shell was launched."
8 Number 2:
9 "On the basis of the position of the stabilising fin, which was
10 removed on the first day, the angle of descent was not determined with
11 precision, which is why the commission could not establish the exact
12 launching distance."
13 He goes on enumerating.
14 Now, at the time, were you aware of this; namely that the Serb
15 side had not been provided with information about the investigation
16 taking place at the time?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I'd just like to tender this
19 document into evidence.
20 MR. WEBER: No objection.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before ... Madam Registrar, the number would be?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 18907 receives number D481,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
25 Please proceed.
Page 21731
1 MR. LUKIC: And it's the break time.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we proceed with the break.
3 How much time would you still need, Mr. Lukic?
4 MR. LUKIC: Not -- not much. A bit more than five minutes
5 probably.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, as matters stand now, one minute?
7 MR. WEBER: A question.
8 JUDGE ORIE: One question. Then let's do that after the break.
9 And could the next witness then remain stand by so that we could start
10 with the next witness immediately after that.
11 You may follow the usher, Mr. Gengo.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll resume at 25 minutes past midday.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further
19 questions. Mr. Gengo already answered my questions. I thought I have
20 for this session, but he answered already.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's a reduction of 100 per cent of the time.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, now you have 0.1 question or ...?
24 MR. WEBER: None.
25 JUDGE ORIE: None.
Page 21732
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. That's very good.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then you kept the witness busy.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we cannot but follow and have no questions for
5 the witness either.
6 Mr. Gengo, this completes your testimony in this court. I'd like
7 to thank you very much for having coming the long way to The Hague and
8 for having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties
9 and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
10 You may follow the usher.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for
12 everything.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
15 Mr. Stojanovic, you'll examine the next witness. No protective
16 measures, 92 ter, Mr. Maletic.
17 Mr. Weber.
18 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, just consistent with our past
19 discussions, I just want to inform the Chamber that the witness has been
20 admonished pursuant to Rule 90(E) in the past.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's on the record.
22 Could the next witness be escorted in the courtroom.
23 Yes, I think we discussed the matter. We leave it in the hands
24 of the calling party whether or not to inform the witness about his
25 rights under Rule 90(E).
Page 21733
1 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Maletic. Before you give
4 evidence, you're invited to make a solemn declaration, the text of which
5 is handed out to you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: DRAGAN MALETIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please be seated, Mr. Maletic.
11 Mr. Maletic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You'll
12 find him to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Maletic, good afternoon.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. I would kindly ask you to tell the Trial Chamber whether you
19 provided a statement to the Mladic Defence and did you provide it in a
20 written form?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to call up
23 1D01606 in e-court.
24 Q. Let's look at the first page of the document together.
25 Mr. Maletic, is this your signature, and is this information about you?
Page 21734
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's go to the last
4 page of the same document. The statement is eight pages long.
5 Q. Mr. Maletic, my question is the same. Is this a confirmation
6 that you provided a statement containing eight pages to the
7 Mladic Defence, and did you sign it on the 10th of May, 2014?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now, Your Honours, I would
11 like to call up 65 ter 1D03341.
12 We made some minor changes and additions to the statement that
13 this witness has provided. With your leave, I would like to briefly ask
14 the witness the following.
15 Q. Mr. Maletic, did you talk to me during the preparations for your
16 testimony, and did you sign the addendum to the statement to which you
17 made some minor changes yesterday?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In paragraph 26 of your original statement, it is stated,
20 inter alia, that the sentence:
21 "There were no residential buildings in that area, save for two
22 residential buildings."
23 Your amendment to that sentence was: "Except for several smaller
24 apartment buildings." We're talking about paragraph 26.
25 My question is this: Why did you change your statement after the
Page 21735
1 10th of May when you signed it? Why did you ask us yesterday to replace
2 the words "two buildings" by the words "several smaller buildings"?
3 A. Well, I just happened to pass through that part of the building
4 and I realised that there were not just two smaller buildings but several
5 smaller apartment buildings there. And after that -- or, rather, I
6 passed through that part of the building after I signed the original
7 statement and that's why I asked you to make the -- that correction to
8 the original statement.
9 Q. Thank you. And now in paragraph 32 of your original statement --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you make a pause, Mr. Stojanovic, between
11 answer and question, and could I invite you also to make a small pause
12 between question and answer. Otherwise, the interpreters will not be
13 able to interpret the overlapping speakers.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We
15 shall do our best.
16 Q. Witness, in paragraph 32 of your original statement, inter alia,
17 the following sentence has been added:
18 "During a truce in 1994, two children were killed at Soping."
19 Yesterday, in a conversation with me, you wanted me to add the
20 following words:
21 "Two children were killed, namely Milica Lalovic and
22 Natasa Sucur."
23 My question is this: How come that after the 10th of May, when
24 you signed the original statement, you came by the specific information
25 with regard to the names of the two children that you mentioned in -- in
Page 21736
1 your original statement?
2 A. In a conversation with my colleague who also testified here, I
3 learned the names of the two children and that's why I wanted you to add
4 those names to my original statement.
5 Q. Thank you. And now --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask for additional clarification. Could
7 you give us the name of the person who told us you the names of the two
8 girls?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Predrag Trapara.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. And, Mr. Maletic, if I were to ask you the same questions today,
13 the same ones that our investigators put to you when you signed the
14 original statement, with the additions that have you mentioned here today
15 and after you have made the -- have taken the solemn declaration, would
16 your answers be the same? And would your answers constitute the whole
17 truth?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, in the expectation that the
20 statement and the additional statement will be tendered, could you
21 provide numbers.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1606 receives number D482. And
23 document 1D3341 receives number D483, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D482 and D483 are admitted into evidence.
25 Witness, could you tell us also when exactly you spoke -- and the
Page 21737
1 question comes from in front of you, when did you exactly speak to -- to
2 Mr. Trapara?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that it was on the
4 17th of this month.
5 JUDGE ORIE: 17th. Was that the day when you had arrived, or the
6 day after that, or the day after that? Do you remember why you know it
7 was the 17th?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A day after my arrival, I met up
9 with Predrag Trapara. We had an informal conversation, and I learned
10 that during that conversation.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it's not your personal knowledge. It's
12 just that he knows the names and you repeat it now?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was aware of their killing but I
14 didn't know their names. He only told me their names.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, whenever you say something in this
16 court which is not your personal knowledge but what you heard from
17 others, would you always clearly indicate what stems from your own
18 memory, your own observation, and what stems from what you were told.
19 Because adding the names here, it's not clear to us that you got it from
20 someone else, and we always would like to know what you know by yourself
21 and what others have told you.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
24 And now I would like to tender the following documents pursuant
25 to 65 ter, and they all accompany the witness's statement.
Page 21738
1 The first one is 65 ter 1D02005.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 But Mr. Weber has not jumped up yet. He now has.
4 MR. WEBER: I was going to wait until Mr. Stojanovic says all of
5 them and then I do have an objection on one and I believe one has already
6 been admitted.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Mr. Stojanovic, if you would just proceed
8 with all the numbers until Mr. Weber jumps up.
9 MR. WEBER: Well, our objection would be on the first one.
10 JUDGE ORIE: On the first one.
11 MR. WEBER: It would be on 1D02005. It's on the basis of
12 relevance. We see that this is a newspaper article dated 8 April 2010.
13 It's the Prosecution's position that this document has little probative
14 value to this Chamber based on its date and remoteness to the events, and
15 it is very briefly commented upon if -- if barely at all by the witness
16 in the statement.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I also noticed, and in the statement
18 the witness just tells him -- tells you that he was shown a document. He
19 doesn't say anything about the document. That's the newspaper article, I
20 take it, that's ... relevance?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness
22 mentions that in paragraph 5 of his statement, and he says that he
23 learned of that crime in the media, and that like most of the population
24 of Sarajevo, he learned about that as something that preceded the
25 beginning of war and war conflicts in Sarajevo.
Page 21739
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I hope that we will not have to hear
2 witnesses telling us what they read in the media. But, at the same time,
3 Mr. -- is there any dispute about the issue that policeman Pero Petrovic
4 was killed at his workplace in the Novo Sarajevo police station?
5 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution is aware of his death and the date of
6 it. We dispute the account that's given in --
7 JUDGE ORIE: The account being?
8 MR. WEBER: Well, this -- I believe this article for pages
9 discusses the event and how it happened. So do not believe this witness
10 has the foundation to be talking about this. It's just the --
11 [Microphone not activated].
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Stojanovic told us that the witness
13 learned about it from the media. He therefore, I take it, cannot confirm
14 any details about -- apart from what he read in the media, which may not
15 be the right source.
16 At the same time, you may have heard that the Prosecution does
17 not disagree that Pero Petrovic, the name is accurate. The place where
18 he was killed, the Sarajevo police station, is that in dispute?
19 MR. WEBER: I'd have to specifically check, but we do have some
20 information on it and when it happened.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- do you -- under those circumstances
22 do you still insist on tendering, Mr. Stojanovic? Then, of course, the
23 Chamber will further consider and decide. Or would you like to wait
24 until Mr. Weber has verified name, time, and the place where the person
25 was killed?
Page 21740
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour. I
2 would like Mr. Weber to check if any of this is incorrect, and maybe we
3 will have stipulations about these events.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And "any of this," you mean what the witness says
5 about it. Because you have heard already that the Prosecution disagrees
6 with further details as presented in the exhibit or in the article.
7 Okay. We'll wait. We leave it for the time being. We'll not
8 yet mark it for identification.
9 Mr. Weber, we would like to hear from you, or from you, together
10 with Mr. Stojanovic, as soon as possible.
11 Next one, Mr. Stojanovic.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender the rest
13 of the documents, by your leave, as it seems to me the best way to save
14 time.
15 I tender the following 65 ter documents: 1D02092, 1D02093,
16 1D02094, 1D02095, and 1D02029.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No objections?
18 MR. WEBER: No objections. But the Prosecution notes that its
19 records indicate that 1D02029 has already been admitted as Prosecution
20 Exhibit P4445.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that what now remains are the others
22 which are all maps marked by the witness.
23 Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2092 receives number D484.
25 Document 1D2093 receives number D485.
Page 21741
1 Document 1D2094 receives number D486.
2 And document 1D2095 receives number D487, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Madam Registrar, could you repeat the first
4 1D number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2092 receives number D484.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now sometimes --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- the 0 between the 1D and the following number is
9 not always. But D484 up to and including D487 are admitted -- 6. Let me
10 just check. No, D487 are admitted into evidence.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. By your leave,
13 Your Honour, I'd like to read out a summary of Mr. Maletic's statement.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] When the war broke out, the
16 witness lived in Grbavica with his family. When the
17 1st Romanija Brigade, later to become the 1st Sarajevo Brigade, was
18 established, he was appointed to the position as the commander of the
19 1st Company, 3rd Battalion. He held that position until late 1992 when
20 he was transferred to the 3rd Battalion command to the position of
21 assistant battalion commander for intelligence affairs. He stayed in
22 that position until early 1994.
23 During the war, his unit carried out predominantly defensive
24 actions and commanded the view of a small part of town from its
25 positions. The witness claims that his unit never opened fire,
Page 21742
1 especially sniper fire, on civilians from the defence sector of his
2 company.
3 Throughout the war they were under the orders of the superior
4 command, forbidding any action aimed at civilians. They were also
5 frequently ordered not to open fire at all, thus, sustaining losses which
6 would have been less had they been able to respond to enemy fire
7 immediately.
8 The witness will testify that the ABiH unit which engaged them
9 had snipers and that they were posted in different civilian buildings.
10 That information originated from different sources, such as interviews
11 with defectors, intelligence, and, in particular, the fact that many
12 civilians were killed deep within the settlements of Grbavica and Vrace.
13 In addition to obtaining information from defectors, he also
14 concluded that the enemy had snipers because there was always individual
15 shooting during lulls. It always meant that snipers from parts of town
16 under Muslim control were targeting selected targets on the VRS side.
17 The witness will further point out that the enemy did not select targets
18 and that it did not matter to the enemy side whether fighters or
19 civilians would be hit. It resulted in many civilian inhabitants of
20 Grbavica being killed.
21 That is the summary of the witness's statement.
22 Next, could we have in e-court document P3, page 24. I would
23 like to get a more precise description of the positions held by the units
24 to which Mr. Maletic belonged -- unit to which Mr. Maletic belonged.
25 Q. Mr. Maletic, while we are waiting for the document, I wanted to
Page 21743
1 tell that you are about to see a photograph. I know, as well as the
2 Chamber knows, that you previously used a map with far less detail than
3 we can see on this photograph in order to mark the positions of your
4 unit.
5 Given the fact that you describe the positions of your unit in
6 the statement, kindly use the marker provided by the usher to indicate
7 the positions of the unit commanded by you as company commander in 1992,
8 at least to the extent we can see in the photograph. Please start
9 with -- on the right-hand side and the first building where we could find
10 your positions.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Marking will be done in blue, Mr. Stojanovic, or
12 what ... oh, yes, I see it started [Overlapping speakers] ...
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour. I think
14 it will be easy to see then.
15 Q. For the record, sir, please continue drawing the line, describing
16 at the same time what you are doing, and tell us, please, what the first
17 building was where your unit was deployed.
18 A. This was the building of Invest Banka.
19 Q. Next?
20 A. Next we have the student dorm. And there was another position
21 here between the sky-scraper and the student dorm.
22 Q. Do stop there for a moment.
23 The witness circled the place he just referred to. Kindly tell
24 the Court, for the record, what kind of position it was.
25 A. It was a dugout with approaching trenches in order to have a
Page 21744
1 position just between the sky-scraper and the student dorm.
2 MR. WEBER: I'm sorry to get up, Your Honours -- -
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
4 MR. WEBER: -- but I'm a bit confused as what we're -- which
5 marking, because the witness has made many, are we referring to.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You were invited to mark the positions. What you
7 are apparently doing is to mark a line or is -- could you explain exactly
8 what the line represents?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. The building of
10 Invest Banka is 1-3. Then the student dorm. Then the position between
11 the student dorm and --
12 JUDGE ORIE: One second. 1-3. What is 1-3? I don't see any 1-3
13 on my screen.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The building of Invest Banka.
15 JUDGE ORIE: What I see in this picture is that some numbers
16 appear and that one building is marked in red 10; whereas the -- the
17 10 in the white box refers to former Invest Banka building.
18 When referred to 1-3, did you refer to the building which is
19 marked in red number 10?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I apologise Your Honour. I had
21 mind the three Metalka buildings. The building of Invest Banka was not
22 held by my unit. It was held by the battalion next to us, so I misspoke.
23 I had the Metalka buildings in mind, 1, 2, and 3.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now what we see on this picture is a red
25 square marking with number 8 on it, and that comprises a large
Page 21745
1 construction. And we read in the white box that that is the Metalka
2 building.
3 First of all, would that Metalka building, would that be a
4 building in which you had any position?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And now I understand that to the right of that,
7 where you seem to have marked a 1, and to the left of that, where you
8 seem to have marked a 3, are these three, what you call, together, the
9 Metalka buildings?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, that's what we called
11 them.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did you have positions in all three of
13 these buildings or ...
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So the blue line which is at the side of the
16 buildings we are looking at is not demonstrating where you were and where
17 the others were because the buildings are still buildings - the Metalka
18 buildings - which -- in which you had positions?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So the blue line effectively is at the other side of
21 these buildings then separating you from the other warring party?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance,
23 Your Honour --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first -- no, no, I'm still seeking
25 confirmation.
Page 21746
1 So is that correctly understood, that the line of separation
2 would be at the other side of the buildings, which, of course, we cannot
3 see? Or was it a river there? Or what was the line of separation?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The river was behind the building
5 and it was the separation line.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now, apart from the three buildings where you
7 wrote 1, 2, and 3 in blue, there's also a building with a red roof.
8 Could you tell us what that building is and whether you had any
9 positions in there?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the student dorm.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's the student dorm. And you had positions in
12 that student dorm as well?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now you marked a dot to the left of the students'
15 dorm at the corner of what is another red square marking. That blue dot
16 depicts what exactly?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between the sky-scraper and the
18 student dorm, around the middle, there was a trench that was dug in a
19 meadow.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. All the markings are clear to me now.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance.
23 Q. Mr. Maletic, let us continue, please.
24 The next square contains four tall buildings. Can you use the
25 blue marker to show whether your company line defence extended between
Page 21747
1 those buildings.
2 A. Our trenches were at the foot of the high-rises.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: At the foot facing the river or was it at the foot
5 facing the Grbavica area, at least the ...
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the foot turned towards the
7 river, towards the other side.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. So that's seen from here behind the
9 building. Behind the buildings.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Please tell the Court, in order have a full picture of the
14 situation, and perhaps use approximately dozens or hundreds of metres to
15 tell us how far your lines stretched down the Miljacka river beyond the
16 edge of this photograph. How far did the positions of your company
17 reach?
18 A. Several hundred metres, to the next bridge called Bratsvo i
19 Jedinstvo.
20 Q. Thank you. Kindly place today's date on the photograph, which is
21 the 28th of May, and sign it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: There's no need -- it can be tendered as such.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I seek
24 to tender this photograph into evidence. I have additional two questions
25 with regard to it, hence, do leave it on the screen for the time
Page 21748
1 building.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Page --
4 MR. WEBER: No objections, Your Honour.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Page 24 of Exhibit P3 as marked by the witness
6 receives number D488, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D488 is admitted.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Maletic, let me ask you this: When you said that in the
10 buildings in front of you, which you marked with the numbers 1, 2, and 3
11 in blue, you had positions, were those positions at some of the higher
12 floors of the buildings?
13 A. No. Those positions were at the foot of the buildings.
14 Q. When you explained your deployment concerning the building in the
15 red square bearing the number 9, did you, as the company, have any
16 positions on one of the upper floors of that building?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Why did you have positions only on the ground floor of those
19 buildings?
20 A. For personal safety. We were safer at the -- the bottom of those
21 buildings.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maletic. We -- I have no further questions for
23 you, and I would kindly ask you to provide answers as best you can to the
24 Prosecutor as well.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
Page 21749
1 Mr. Weber, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
2 Mr. Maletic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Weber.
3 Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find him to your
4 right.
5 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Maletic.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. I'm going to pick up with the area that we were just discussing
10 with respect to your zone of responsibility.
11 In paragraph 8 of your statement, you describe the zone of
12 responsibility of the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Romanija Brigade. And I'm
13 sorry to stop my question here, but, sir, do you have some documents in
14 front of you at the witness stand?
15 A. Yes, I have this statement that I gave.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Is it -- if it is a clean copy, I do not know if you
17 have any problems, Mr. Weber.
18 MR. WEBER: I have not seen it. If I could just --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Is it a clean copy of your statement? Could you --
20 could the usher just have a look at it and give it to Mr. Weber so that
21 he can see whether it's with or without annotations.
22 MR. WEBER: I do see there's some markings on it. If I can check
23 it over the next break and then --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then we rather ask the witness: Whatever you
25 need from your statement, if you have to read it yourself, that it can
Page 21750
1 always be shown on the screen, if need be, and there is a lot of
2 handwriting on it. Would you please put it away and not consult it.
3 MR. WEBER: Judge, we do have a clean copy --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
5 MR. WEBER: -- if he needs it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- usually we don't -- if there's any need we can
7 still give it to the witness at a later stage.
8 Could the original be returned to the witness or ...
9 MR. WEBER: If we could -- I mean, he had it on -- I believe that
10 the witness had in front of him during direct examination. If we could
11 just check with the [overlapping speakers] ...
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Maletic, do you have any problems in the
13 Prosecution looking at your notes written on this? On your statement?
14 What are the notes about?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem. You can take a look.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Mr. Weber will return it to you after the
17 break.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
19 MR. WEBER:
20 Q. Mr. Maletic, I'm going start again.
21 In paragraph 8 of your statement, you describe the zone of
22 responsibility of the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Romanija Brigade stating
23 that it stretched from the Vrbanja bridge to the Slavisa Vajner Cica
24 barracks.
25 Is it also correct that your brigade's zone of responsibility
Page 21751
1 extended to the east and included the Jewish cemetery?
2 A. I'm sorry, could you please repeat that for me? Did you say
3 battalion or brigade?
4 Q. I'm referring to the brigade. Is it correct that your brigade's
5 zone of responsibility extended to the east and included the Jewish
6 cemetery?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30697.
9 Q. Sir, this is a 1st Romanija Brigade Command report dated
10 23 June 1992 from, at that time, brigade commander, Colonel
11 Dragomir Milosevic. The topic is the disposition of the brigade. If you
12 could please just review the entire report - it's rather short - and let
13 us know when you've done that.
14 A. I've read it.
15 Q. Thank you, sir. Is it correct that this report describes the
16 zone of responsibility for the 1st Romanija Brigade and its battalions as
17 they existed in 1992?
18 A. I am not aware of the positions of the brigade, where they were.
19 I talked about the position of my company, in 1992, that was from the
20 bridge to the bridge. And then the position of my battalion that was
21 from Vrbanja Most, the bridge, to the Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks.
22 Q. Okay. What battalion -- what battalions neighboured your
23 battalions on each side?
24 A. We're the 2nd Battalion of the Sarajevo Brigade [as interpreted].
25 Next to us was the 1st Battalion, on the right. And to the left, there
Page 21752
1 were parts of, I don't know...
2 Q. I'm sorry, sir, I don't know if you finished your answer there or
3 not.
4 A. Yes, yes, I just don't remember who was on our left. I just know
5 that our line was up to the Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks.
6 Q. Okay. Does this document accurately describe the positions of
7 your own battalion, the 3rd Battalion, at the time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. Is it correct that as a company commander you were
10 responsible for knowing the positions of all the personnel under your
11 command?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Isn't it also correct, as a company commander, it was your -- it
14 was your job to know the positions of any forces that could support your
15 company in your immediate vicinity?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it correct that your battalion remained part of the
18 1st Romanija Brigade until early 1993?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The headquarters of your company, the 1st Company, was in the
21 former Drvorijeka shop in Grbavica; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is correct that your battalion's headquarters was located on
24 Banja Luka Street?
25 A. Yes.
Page 21753
1 Q. During the war, the Pere Zdere - and I'm sorry for mispronouncing
2 the name of the location - Pere Zdere restaurant was not far from your
3 battalion's headquarters. Is that correct?
4 A. I did not understand the name.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you spell it, Mr. Weber --
6 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- so not as to rely on your pronunciation.
8 MR. WEBER: Thank you.
9 Q. The name I'm trying to pronounce is Pere, P-e-r-e, second word
10 Zdere, Z-d-e-r-e.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for it to appear on the transcript so
12 that the witness can look at it as well.
13 You see it's written three lines from the bottom, now four lines,
14 on the transcript: Pere Zdere. My pronunciation is most likely as bad
15 as --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. I understand.
17 Pere Zdere. There was no command close to that.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Okay. How far was the battalion command from that restaurant?
20 A. Over 500 metres.
21 Q. In 1993, is it correct that your battalion was made part of the
22 1st Sarajevo Brigade as the Smbr's 2nd Battalion?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is it correct that your battalion's zone of responsibility did
25 not change after it was made part of the 1st Smbr?
Page 21754
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender this
3 document into evidence, 65 ter 30697.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30697 receives number P6538,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P6538 is admitted.
8 Mr. Weber, I intend to take a break in two or three minutes from
9 now. If you have a few questions, please put them to the witness; if you
10 would need more time for your next subject --
11 MR. WEBER: I can go through a number of quick things and if
12 Your Honours want to stop me whenever you would like, it's fine to do
13 that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'll do it in three minutes from now.
15 MR. WEBER: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Maletic, until late 1992, is it correct your battalion
17 commander was Radomir Stojanovic?
18 A. First it was Brane Plakalovic, and after him Radomir Stojanovic.
19 Brane, or Branislav, Plakalovic and then Radomir Stojanovic.
20 Q. Is it correct that Mr. Stojanovic remained your battalion
21 commander until late 1992?
22 A. Aleksandar Petrovic became battalion commander in late 1992 or
23 beginning of 1993, and Radomir Stojanovic was killed.
24 Q. Okay. So just so we're clear, then, Aleksandar Petrovic
25 succeeded Radomir Stojanovic as your battalion commander sometime toward
Page 21755
1 the end of 1992; is that correct?
2 A. Yes. But I don't know the exact dates of that.
3 Q. No problem, sir. Is it correct that your battalion had two
4 deputy commanders; those individuals were Milan Hrvacevic and
5 Dragan Siljak, with a K, Siljak?
6 A. Yes, for a time. And then Hrvacevic was moved to the brigade
7 command.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break now.
9 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes. You may follow
10 the usher.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at quarter to 2.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, you may proceed.
17 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Q. Is it correct that Zeljko Mitrovic was in charge of the work
19 detail of your battalion?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Until the end of 1993, is it correct that you were part of the
22 command of the 2nd Battalion of the 1st Smbr?
23 A. That would be it roughly.
24 Q. Okay. Once you became an assistant commander for security and
25 intelligence, is it correct that you attended morning meetings with the
Page 21756
1 battalion commander and the deputy commanders?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is it correct that these meetings would take place at the
4 battalion headquarters?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Zeljko Mitrovic would attend these meetings; is that right?
7 A. Well, I cannot remember.
8 Q. Okay. Can you remember occasions where Mr. Mitrovic would attend
9 the meetings?
10 A. Well, possibly. Possibly.
11 Q. Okay. Let's try another individual. Is it correct that
12 Nebojsa Ivkovic also attended the morning meetings of the battalion
13 command?
14 A. I think that he came from time to time to attend meetings.
15 Q. Okay. How often would he attend the meetings?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Is it correct that during these meetings, you would discuss the
18 personnel in the battalion and their deployments?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In your own role as assistant commander for intelligence and
21 security, is it correct that you continued to operate from the battalion
22 headquarters on Banja Luka Street?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When you became the assistant commander for security and
25 intelligence, is it correct that your function required you to have
Page 21757
1 detailed information on the security situation throughout the zone of
2 responsibility of the battalion?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When you were an assistant commander, is it correct that the
5 military police in your battalion were your responsibility, or they were
6 under your authority?
7 A. No. We did not have any military police.
8 Q. Okay. As part of your role as a commander for security and
9 intelligence, is it correct that you possessed the authority and you also
10 had the obligation to detain or arrest any soldier suspected of
11 committing a crime?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution, please, have P06517, currently
14 marked for identification.
15 Q. Sir, coming up before you is a list of names which you were
16 previously shown during the Karadzic proceedings. During that case, at
17 page 30847, you confirmed that this is a list of personnel at the
18 2nd Battalion Command on this first page; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, I remember some of the names.
20 Q. Okay. Just so we're clear, is it correct that your commander's
21 name appears at line number 19?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And your deputy commander, their names appear at numbers 8 and
24 number 30; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 21758
1 Q. Is it correct your name and signature appears at number 14?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you please tell us what the purpose of this list is.
4 A. I don't know. I don't remember. Really.
5 Q. Do you recall any occasions that you signed lists while you were
6 at the battalion command?
7 A. Well, I see my signature here, but I really don't remember the
8 purpose of this list. Really.
9 Q. Okay. In paragraph 31 of your statement, you state that there
10 was a sniper squad at the battalion command directly subordinated to the
11 commander. This would be Aleksandar Petrovic; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How do you know that the sniper squad existed and that it was
14 subordinated to the battalion commander?
15 A. An order in the corps command said that sniper squads should be
16 established. I can't remember when this was. And it was directly
17 subordinated to the battalion commander.
18 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of both
19 versions. What I'll be referring to carries over onto page 4 of the
20 English version.
21 Q. Mr. Maletic, on this page, we see two sections. One section is
22 for the technical department, and the bottom section is for snipers.
23 Under the sniper list, there are names of 11 individuals. These names
24 include Nebojsa Ivkovic, Zlatko Subotic --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we scroll the list, please.
Page 21759
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. Zlatko Subotic and Marinko Krneta.
3 Is it correct that these are the names of the sniper squad whom
4 you referred to in your statement?
5 A. In my statement I said that I didn't remember the names of those
6 people from the sniper squad.
7 Q. Well, sir, a second ago, I just asked you about Mr. Ivkovic. You
8 indicated that he was present at some meetings of the battalion command.
9 In this list, we see Mr. Ivkovic under the sniper section. Is it correct
10 that he was, in fact, the commander of the battalion's sniper quad?
11 A. I remember that Nebojsa Ivkovic was the commander of the signals
12 squad in the battalion.
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if I could tender this document at this
14 time. I'm going to continue my line of questioning here after.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the document is already MFI'd under
17 number P6517.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P6517 is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 19330.
20 Q. Sir, coming up before you will be a signed statement provided by
21 Milan Hrvacevic, one of the deputy commanders of your battalion.
22 Mr. Hrvacevic provided this statement to the Sarajevo MUP on the
23 15th of March, 1996. If you could please look at the beginning of the
24 statement, as can you see, your deputy commander describes his
25 familiarity with the battalion's sniper squad. He mentions many of the
Page 21760
1 names that were on the list that we just saw.
2 My question: Could you explain to us how the deputy commander
3 would be familiar with this information, and you, the assistant commander
4 for security and intelligence, would not know the same information?
5 A. Milan Hrvacevic was arrested after the Dayton Accord on the
6 Fraternity and Unity bridge. He was beaten up. He provided
7 statements -- I apologise.
8 Q. Sir -- okay. It appears that Mr. Hrvacevic knows information
9 related to the sniper squad. Could you explain to us how he would know
10 and you not know the same information.
11 A. I can't explain. I told you I did not remember any names.
12 Q. Is it correct, then, that you have no reason -- you have no
13 factual knowledge of the matters that Mr. Hrvacevic is then discussing in
14 this statement. Is that your evidence?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In this statement, Mr. Hrvacevic states:
17 "I emphasise that Zlatko Subotic and Marinko Krneta were known to
18 be the best snipers of our battalion, and they acquired this reputation
19 by actively taking part in sniper shooting."
20 Are you claiming here today that you were not aware of this
21 reputation?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is what I'm claiming
24 here.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It may be due to the English
Page 21761
1 translation where it says "actively participated in opening sniper fire
2 on buildings."
3 I am reading the original B/C/S statement of this witness, where
4 it is stated:
5 "I would like to say that Zlatko Subotic and Marinko Krneta
6 enjoyed the reputation as the best sniper shooters in our battalion.
7 They acquired such an image as a result of their numerous activities and
8 active participation in sniping activities."
9 There's no reference to any buildings.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just have a look, then, at the question.
12 I think that the question did not make any reference to
13 buildings, so, therefore, perhaps it was the way in which it was
14 translated or misunderstood. A human error. But, as it appears on the
15 transcript, there seems to be no problem.
16 And the witness has answered the question anyhow. You had no
17 knowledge about their reputation.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Since have you no knowledge of this information, is it correct
20 that you've reason to dispute these statements?
21 A. You mean Milan Hrvacevic's statement?
22 Q. Yes. Since you have no knowledge of the facts that Mr. Hrvacevic
23 is discussing here, you have no reason to dispute these facts; is that
24 correct?
25 A. Let me just say this briefly. I met up with Milan Hrvacevic
Page 21762
1 after the war, perhaps five or six years later, I don't know exactly
2 when, and he told me very briefly that when he was arrested, he provided
3 a statement, that he had to sign all sorts of things under duress. He
4 had been heavily beaten up and so on and so forth. This is as much as I
5 know from a conversation with him. This is all he told me. He wouldn't
6 go into any further details.
7 Q. And you did not see any of that yourself; is that correct?
8 A. No.
9 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would tender this statement into
10 evidence pursuant to Rule 89(C). The document is further supported by
11 independent evidence, the list that was just previously admitted.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We object to the admission of
14 this statement. This statement was provided by a different witness
15 before a different body during a different procedure. So far, our
16 practice has been not to admit such statements into evidence in this
17 particular way.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course, you are -- the Defence is not
19 admitting anything, but I think the case law is that statements taken for
20 the purposes of this Tribunal are not -- cannot be admitted unless
21 Rule 92 bis or 92 ter are applied. But this is a statement taken by
22 another authority.
23 And if you could guide me, Mr. Stojanovic, where in the practice
24 or the case law of this Tribunal the admission of such statements from
25 the bar table are declared non-admissible, then I'd like to hear from
Page 21763
1 you.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- with your leave, this is a
5 statement of which this witness has no knowledge. The only thing that he
6 knows is that five or six years after the statement was taken from
7 Hrvacevic, if it was, indeed, taken from him, under what conditions it
8 had been taken. So there's no foundation for the admission of this
9 statement through today's witness.
10 Second of all, this statement was provided to the state organs,
11 more specifically, to the police station in Sarajevo in March 1996. In
12 no way is it suitable as evidence in this case. That is why we object to
13 the admission of this statement into evidence.
14 By the way, I am not able to give you the case law reference, but
15 I believe in the Kosovo case and in the Popovic case, and with all due
16 respect, we have been working so long in this case when I use statements
17 from the Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina, some of those statements were not
18 deemed to be admissible in this case. That's why I'm objecting to the
19 admission of Hrvacevic's statement through Maletic's testimony.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The document will be marked for identification. The
21 parties have an opportunity to further -- to make further submissions,
22 preferably in writing, on the admission of this document.
23 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19330 receives number P6539, MFI,
25 Your Honours.
Page 21764
1 JUDGE ORIE: And it keeps that status for the time being.
2 Mr. Weber, you may proceed.
3 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honour, if it assists, the main reason that
4 we would be offering it is for -- as it goes to the witness's credibility
5 that he was a position to know and he is claiming not to know of these
6 individuals and someone similarly situated were. So if that assists
7 counsel --
8 JUDGE ORIE: I indicated that parties would have an opportunity
9 to make further submissions, not at this moment orally.
10 You have another three minutes for further questions.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. Sir, in your statement, you describe the enemy forces that
13 opposed you. In paragraph 19, you state:
14 "I know that my unit's counterpart on the opposite side was an
15 HVO unit called Kralj Tvrtko. I was shown documents which I identified
16 because, while I was the assistant for intelligence and security, I
17 collected the initial information from the defectors."
18 Is it correct that the Defence showed you documents according --
19 about this subject?
20 A. Please repeat your question.
21 Q. Sir, in your statement, it indicates that you describe an
22 opposing HVO unit. You indicate that you were shown documents which you
23 identified because "while I was the assistant for intelligence and
24 security," you "collected the initial information from the defectors."
25 Is it correct that the Defence showed you these documents?
Page 21765
1 A. I can't remember.
2 Q. Do you recall how many documents you were shown?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you recall who the authors of the documents were?
5 A. I knew about the enemy side. I knew who was in front of our
6 lines, and I heard that from the defectors. This is what I have stated.
7 Q. Sir --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber --
9 MR. WEBER: If I could ask just one question.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one question.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. Sir, I just wanted to ask you this quickly before we finish for
13 the day.
14 We haven't had a full time to look at the statement that you had
15 with you when you first came to court, but from an initial glance at it,
16 there appears to be two different colour inks and possibly two different
17 handwriting on it. Could you tell us, is there anyone else that wrote on
18 that statement besides yourself?
19 A. No. All of that is my handwriting.
20 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we adjourn for the day.
22 Witness, before you leave the courtroom, I'd like to instruct you
23 that you should not speak or communicate in whatever other way with
24 whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony already given or
25 still to be given tomorrow. We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning
Page 21766
1 at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom.
2 You may now follow the usher.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, according to my bookkeeping, you have
5 1 hour and 20 minutes left.
6 We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the
7 29th of May, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of May,
10 2014, at 9.30 a.m.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25