Page 22958
1 Wednesday, 25 June 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 To the extent the transcript of yesterday, page 22918 may have
12 caused any confusion as to whether the document marked for identification
13 under number 534 would have been a P or a D document, it is a Defence
14 document.
15 Having said this -- yes, but I don't receive any -- I have no
16 volume. Yes, now it's better.
17 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Veljovic. Perhaps there is no
20 need to remind you but I nevertheless do, that you are still bound by the
21 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that
22 you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 Mr. Weber will now continue his cross-examination.
24 WITNESS: STEVAN VELJOVIC [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpretation]
Page 22959
1 MR. WEBER: Good morning, Your Honours. Thank you.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber: [Continued]
3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Veljovic.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. Yesterday we left off discussing the topic of modified air bombs.
6 At the end of the day, I asked you about Vladimir Radojcic and his
7 awareness of modified air bombs. In your answer, on transcript page
8 22956, you stated:
9 "He knows of one instance when it fell on his own positions but
10 went unexploded."
11 How do you know that Vladimir Radojcic knows of this one
12 instance?
13 A. First of all, I would like to ask the Trial Chamber kindly: I
14 had two strokes, and I commanded units at different levels, from company
15 and squad upwards. Could I please explain to the Court all of this a bit
16 more extensively? Could I please be given the authority to do that?
17 Because all these questions are geared towards air bombs and nothing
18 else.
19 Sir -- I mean, Mr. Prosecutor, I came here to defend
20 General Mladic, and I provided a written statement for him as well which
21 has been corroborated by this Court.
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will respond to the question --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Stop. I would like to correct you. You did not
25 come here to defend Mr. Mladic. You came here to give testimony to the
Page 22960
1 truth. You're not either in favour or -- or against Mr. Mladic. That
2 should be clear to you that you are not here in a position to defend.
3 And I would invite you to just answer the questions Mr. Weber
4 considers relevant.
5 And I also would like to ask you to explain, perhaps in two more
6 words, about the strokes you referred to. What did you want to say to us
7 when you told us about the two strokes you had?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I told you that I survived
9 these two strokes. I am a sick man, after all. I cannot remember each
10 and every thing. Please take that into consideration.
11 And what I said about air bombs being imprecise is the following:
12 No artillery piece in the world is precise. Not rockets, not mortars
13 that have been used for hundreds of years. The shell remains in the
14 barrel, and these things that can happen. There are so many things that
15 have to be taken into account; how the soldier feels, and then maybe the
16 shell gets stuck in the barrel, and so on. Nothing is accidental.
17 Perhaps there can be even a 3-kilometre deviation. The American
18 ones were made according to the most up-to-date technology, and there was
19 a mistake of a few seconds, and all this technology and all this money
20 went to waste. So all use of artillery can turn into collateral damage,
21 as the Americans call it.
22 So I would like to explain that this air bomb, too, is imprecise.
23 So that is why I thought that --
24 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop you there.
25 First of all, have you been criticised for what you said
Page 22961
1 yesterday? Did anyone criticise you and say, "Well, this is not correct
2 or accurate," or -- what you told yesterday?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes -- no. I'm just giving yes or
4 no answers. I mean --
5 JUDGE ORIE: No --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think it's within my domain
7 just to say yes or no.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No. Let me just -- could you please answer my
9 question whether anyone criticised you for what you said yesterday,
10 because if you don't remember things, and you talked about that, just
11 tell us.
12 But was there anyone who criticised you for your yesterday's
13 testimony?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody criticised me.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Nobody commented on it to you?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: "Yes," meaning no one did; or, yes, someone did?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody criticised me, nobody. I
19 mean -- but this is going so fast, and they are cutting me off, and they
20 are putting all these questions that I have this underlying stress --
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and that causes anxiety. And,
23 say, five years ago --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, witness --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I mean, we are not talking --
Page 22962
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- I'm going to stop you now. You should stop
2 talking when I indicate to you that you're supposed to stop talking.
3 Now just answer the questions. If you don't remember something,
4 no problem, you tell us. Just stick to the facts. Do not elaborate on
5 how imprecise American, Russian, Chinese, African weapons are. Just
6 listen careful to the question, answer the question, and leave it to
7 that.
8 Is that clear to you?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. Mr. Veljovic, I'm just going to follow-up on a couple of matters
13 that His Honour just asked you.
14 Has anyone mentioned your testimony in any way at all to you
15 since yesterday?
16 A. Nobody. Except for what I mind, and what I mind is that you keep
17 asking me things from the past, things that happened seven years ago.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, again, we are talking about the
19 past. Therefore, what questions will be put to you is for Mr. Weber to
20 decide, and if there is any objection to that, the Defence will object.
21 You should not intervene in the line of questioning. You just should
22 focus on answering the questions.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. Mr. Veljovic, since yesterday, have you seen any media coverage
Page 22963
1 or any information that might be publicly available related to the
2 testimony you gave?
3 A. I did not. I haven't been following the media here. Just the
4 football games.
5 Q. Okay. I'm going to return to the question I asked you at the
6 outset of today.
7 Yesterday, at transcript page 22956, you stated that Mr. Radojcic
8 knows of one instance when a modified air bomb fell on his own positions
9 but went unexploded. How do you know that Vladimir Radojcic knows of
10 this one instance?
11 A. Well, I know because I was operations officer in the corps and he
12 told me about it.
13 Q. When did he tell you about it?
14 A. 1995.
15 Q. When did this one instance occur?
16 A. I don't know exactly when, which month.
17 Q. Could you approximate what time of year?
18 A. Well, sometime in the summer, May, June, something like that.
19 Q. When you say it fell on his own positions, is it correct that you
20 were referring to the positions of the Ilidza Brigade?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Where in the Ilidza Brigade's zone of responsibility was this
23 modified air bomb fired from?
24 A. I don't know. They had urban positions and positions in a
25 forested areas.
Page 22964
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I just seek clarification.
2 You said that you were told -- that Mr. Radojcic told you about
3 it in 1995. And when asked about when this event had happened, you said
4 it was May, June, perhaps in summer, you thought. Of that same year?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. WEBER:
9 Q. When this modified air bomb fell on his own positions, where did
10 it fall?
11 A. I don't know about that.
12 Q. When was the last time that you spoke with Vladimir Radojcic?
13 A. I spoke to him here when we were here in The Hague, before this
14 break. But I didn't ask him about that.
15 Q. Okay. How many days have you been in The Hague?
16 A. Today it's 14 days.
17 Q. How many times have you seen Mr. Radojcic during these 14 days?
18 A. Well, he went back home. And then I hear that he returned
19 yesterday.
20 Q. Okay. How many times did you see him before he went back home?
21 A. Well, say, two or three times.
22 Q. How did you hear that he returned yesterday?
23 A. Well, I know from the lawyers and those officials from the
24 Victims and Witness Unit.
25 Q. When did the lawyers tell you that he returned yesterday?
Page 22965
1 A. Well, they said that to Milos, and they said before he was
2 supposed to return that he would be coming back on Tuesday.
3 Q. When you say "Milos," is it correct that you're referring to
4 Milos Skrba?
5 A. Yes. Last night around 9.00 he said that to me. He said that
6 Vladimir came and that he's going home, and this morning we said goodbye.
7 Q. Is it correct that last night you spoke with Milos Skrba?
8 A. Well, I didn't really talk. He talked to the lawyers around 8.00
9 or 9.00.
10 Q. When you say "the lawyers," are you referring to the lawyers of
11 Mr. Mladic?
12 A. Yes, Stojanovic, I guess. As far as I know.
13 Q. And Mr. Skrba told you that he had spoken with Mr. Stojanovic?
14 A. Yes, I guess.
15 Q. I take it you're aware that Mr. Skrba is a witness in this case.
16 A. Yes, he was before me.
17 Q. Going back to my question, how many times did you speak with
18 Mr. Radojcic before he went home?
19 A. I've told you a few times; two, three, four times.
20 Q. Was this in person? These two to three, four times.
21 A. I don't understand what it is that you're asking me.
22 Q. Did you meet with him face to face?
23 A. Well, yes. I talked to him personally.
24 Q. How many times have you talked with Milos Skrba since you've been
25 in The Hague?
Page 22966
1 A. Well, before he went out to testify on Monday, whenever, we
2 talked often and took walks along the seashore.
3 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, if I could just have one moment.
4 [Prosecution Counsel Confer]
5 MR. WEBER:
6 Q. Sir, I'm going to return to your testimony about modified air
7 bombs --
8 MR. WEBER: Unless Your Honours had any other questions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We have no further questions.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. In the Milosevic case, at transcript page 5910, you stated:
13 "And in our areas inhabited by Serbs and in the area of
14 responsibility of the Republika Srpska Army, there were no production
15 facilities for air bombs. And I said that launchers were made just by
16 ordinary craftsmen. This was not done in a factory. This was an
17 imperfect weapon that caused great risk for the crew, for our own forces.
18 It is a very inaccurate weapon because bombs have to be dropped from the
19 planes. That's what they're made of. I think I have already explained
20 all that."
21 Do you stand by this testimony today?
22 A. Yes. Just this: The factory --
23 Q. Sir --
24 A. -- had to make certain machine parts --
25 Q. Sir, I'm going to go through it step by step as I was doing
Page 22967
1 yesterday.
2 How did the modified air bombs cause great risk for the crew that
3 was launching them?
4 A. Well, because it can explode nearby. It can fall nearby. It can
5 also not reach its target, not go far away and then it can destroy them.
6 Q. In the Karadzic case, at transcript page 29270, you were asked:
7 "Q. And it's true, isn't it, that air bombs are actually highly
8 destructive?"
9 You answered:
10 "Yes. From 250 to 500 kilogrammes, or even up to 1.000
11 kilogrammes, intending to be launched from aircraft. However, that civil
12 war forced people to devise those launchers, but we were supposed to use
13 those air bombs only in wilderness where there were no human settlements,
14 where there was no habitation, and all they created was panic among the
15 troops."
16 Do you stand by this testimony today?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In this answer you said, "all they created was panic amongst the
19 troops."
20 Yesterday you also confirmed that modified air bombs fired in
21 urban areas would have posed a risk of hitting civilians.
22 Is it correct that modified air bombs would have created panic,
23 if they were used in an urban area where civilians were present?
24 A. Well, of course it has a lethal effect, more than one shell.
25 Also it creates greater craters. Not like some people think, that it has
Page 22968
1 a lethal effect only at 150 metres or so.
2 Q. Sir --
3 A. [Overlapping speakers] ...
4 Q. -- I'm going to show you --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the
6 witness.
7 MR. WEBER:
8 Q. Sir, I'm going to show you an exhibit that you were shown in the
9 Milosevic case.
10 MR. WEBER: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 18593.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say 185?
12 MR. WEBER: That's correct, Your Honour. 18593.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Sir, this is a 10 August 1994 order for further operations from
16 SRK Commander Dragomir Milosevic. As I said, you were previously shown
17 this document in the Milosevic case.
18 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have the last page of
19 both versions.
20 Q. Sir, I'd like to direct your attention first to the initials SC,
21 which appear to the left of General Milosevic's signature. Is it correct
22 that these are the initials for Cedo Sladoje?
23 A. Most probably.
24 Q. Do these initials, the first ones, the first ones listed before
25 the slash, do these initials indicate that this is the individual who
Page 22969
1 drafted this order for the approval of General Milosevic?
2 A. Yes. On the left-hand side is the person who drafts the order,
3 and then it is approved and signed by the commander.
4 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of the B/C/S
5 and page 3 of the English.
6 Q. Mr. Veljovic, I'd like to direct your attention to the sentence
7 immediately above item 6 on this order. It states:
8 "2 air bomb launchers will be ready for firing at Mosevicko Brdo
9 structure and 2 launchers for firing at Gradina, Konjsko Brdo and
10 Velika Bukva."
11 This document is from August 1994. Is it correct that the SRK
12 had deployed and begun using modified air bomb launchers by this time?
13 A. In August 1994, I was not in the corps, and I am not aware of
14 this. I see that Mosevicko Brdo and Konjsko Brdo, et cetera, I see that
15 that is a wasteland on the Nisic plateau where bombs were thrown. All of
16 these places here, it's all afforested. It is not accessible. It is
17 only on foot that the army could have taken this. There are no villages
18 there.
19 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would tender this document into
20 evidence at this time.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 18593 receives number P6604, Your
23 Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P6604 is admitted into evidence.
25 MR. WEBER:
Page 22970
1 Q. Sir, I'm going to move on and discuss some other topics with you.
2 A general question here: Is it correct that Milovan Bjelica is a
3 relative of yours. His father and your mother are brother and sister;
4 correct? My apologies for mispronouncing the name.
5 A. Yes. Milovan Bjelica is related to me, but it's not that we are
6 related in the way you mentioned. My mother is from the brother, and he
7 is from the sister. It's called first cousins, basically.
8 Q. Is it correct that Mr. Bjelica was a member of the Sokolac SDS?
9 A. Yes. And president of the Executive Board of the party for
10 Sokolac.
11 Q. I am now going to direct your attention to the time-period of
12 April 1992. You discussed this time-period in paragraph 36 of your
13 statement admitted as D532.
14 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 11755.
15 Q. Before you is a published copy of an interview that your relative
16 Milovan Bjelica gave to Srpsko Oslobodjenje on 27 December 1994. This
17 article was previously shown to you during the Karadzic case, and I would
18 like to discuss a few parts of it with you today.
19 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of the
20 English translation. It's still the same page on the B/C/S.
21 Q. Sir, in the B/C/S original, I'd like to direct your attention to
22 the bottom of the third column from the left in the article. Do you see
23 the question that asks:
24 "How did you arm the people?"
25 A. I can see it.
Page 22971
1 Q. Toward the end of the answer to this question, Mr. Bjelica
2 stated:
3 "First we took the equipment and weapons from Western
4 Herzegovina, from Gabela, which we brought to Romanija. Then we took the
5 equipment from Central Bosnia, from Visoko, from Sarajevo municipalities
6 which were not under our control. And our greatest success was taking
7 the equipment and weapons from Faletici."
8 Is it correct that the taking of weapons and equipment that
9 Mr. Bjelica describes occurred in April 1992?
10 A. Yes, it occurred in April 1992 while we were still the JNA. The
11 216th Brigade intervened on orders from the 4th Corps of the former JNA
12 in order to assist the guards securing the JNA warehouses. The Muslim
13 forces had broken into the warehouses and started taking away weapons.
14 The 216th Brigade was asked to provide protection for the magazines --
15 for the warehouses.
16 Q. Sir, one second.
17 A. It was between the 13th and the 14th of April, 1992.
18 Q. Sir, let's continue on with this article.
19 After the next question, Mr. Bjelica is asked:
20 "It was probably Gagovic?"
21 And he answers:
22 "No, it was Simovic but Gagovic was there as well. We did it by
23 night in April 1992. We entered with hundred trucks on the first night.
24 There was a group of young men, activists of SDS, which I was leading,
25 and also a group from Pale from the party led by Radomir Kojic, then unit
Page 22972
1 of current Colonel Jovan Bartula, then Ilija Maletic with his people from
2 Stari Grad. This depot contained all weapons of the Territorial Defence
3 of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina. We rated in there the first night, and
4 as soon as we entered the depot, the Green Berets and special forces of
5 Dragan Bikic started surrounding the barracks. We repelled the attack
6 and started pulling out the weapons. The first night, we took the whole
7 artillery and weapons. There was about three hundred artillery tubes,
8 from thirty five to fifty thousand rifles as well as other equipment."
9 Just for the sake of completeness here, before I go through some
10 other things, a little further on in this answer, he says:
11 "We were helped by the unit of Colonel Dragoljub Milosevic, i.e.,
12 the first Romanija Brigade."
13 And then it also states: "And we brought all the weapons and
14 equipment to the territory of Romanija in three days."
15 Is it correct that between 600 and 700 soldiers of the 216th JNA
16 Brigade participated in these operations?
17 A. Yes, it is true. It was the 216th Brigade and not the 1st
18 Romanija Infantry and not a JNA Brigade.
19 As for the Bjelica, I didn't see him on the 14th or the 13th. I
20 didn't see him anywhere. Nor did I see Kojic or Maletic. On the 13th or
21 14th we were there. Now, whether they had been there before, I don't
22 know, but on those dates I didn't see them.
23 There were not 50.000 rifles there, and it wasn't the warehouse
24 of the entire BiH Territorial Defence. It was just a warehouse of the
25 city of Sarajevo. It was between 25- and 30.000 rifles.
Page 22973
1 As for the 300 --
2 Q. Sir --
3 A. -- cannons, well, the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina TO didn't have as
4 many.
5 Q. Sir, if you could please listen to my questions, and we'll go
6 very quickly today.
7 Is it correct that the 216th Brigade took some of these weapons
8 and placed them in Mokro in the barracks and some of the weapons went to
9 the Territorial Defence of Sokolac?
10 A. Yes, that is true. We transferred parts of the weapons to Travno
11 and to Sokolac. And the 216th Brigade had its own weapons and its own
12 warehouses. The 216th Brigade didn't take any of the weapons from the
13 warehouse. The barracks in Mokro belonged to the JNA. As for Sokolac,
14 it was taken to a factory and the weapons were kept there, although I
15 don't know what became of them.
16 Q. This reference to Colonel Dragoljub Milosevic, is it correct that
17 this is actually a reference to Dragomir Milosevic?
18 A. Yes. He commanded the 216th Mountain Brigade of the JNA.
19 Q. I do want to ask you about two other names in the passage.
20 Is it correct that Radomir Kojic was a policeman at the beginning
21 of the war and then he became the commander of the Trebevic Battalion of
22 the 1st Romanija Brigade around the 31st of October 1992 when
23 Milorad Lalovic died?
24 A. Not Milorad Lalovic but Lolovic.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. Is the rest of what I said correct?
Page 22974
1 A. It is. He came after the 31st of October, because
2 Milorad Lolovic was killed on that day. He came about a week later from
3 the police.
4 Q. Sir, sir --
5 A. Some police personnel withdrew as part of their battalion.
6 Q. Sir, Radomir Kojic was a member of the 1st Romanija Brigade
7 between the end of October 1992 and 7 August 1995; correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. After the 7th of August, 1995, is it correct that Radomir Kojic
10 was assigned to the 4th Slpbr after this brigade was formed?
11 A. Yes. He became the Chief of Staff of the 4th Sarajevo Light
12 Infantry Brigade; in other words, my deputy.
13 Q. From the beginning of the war in 1992, Jovan Bartula was a
14 commander of a mixed anti-armour regiment of the SRK; correct?
15 A. Yes, he was.
16 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 11755 into evidence at
17 this time.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 11755 receives number P6605, Your
20 Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P6605 is admitted.
22 MR. WEBER:
23 Q. In the Milosevic case, at transcript page 5710, you were asked a
24 series of questions and answers:
25 "Q. What happened with regular soldiers after the time you
Page 22975
1 mentioned?"
2 Your answer:
3 "Ordinary soldiers of other ethnicities put down their weapons
4 and went home."
5 "Q. What did you do?
6 "A. I remained with my unit.
7 "Q. What time specifically are you talking about?"
8 Your answer:
9 "I'm talking about April and May 1992."
10 Do you stand by this testimony in this case?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. I'm going to move to another topic here.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber --
14 MR. WEBER: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- if the witness testified in a previous case
16 ability other ethnicities, wouldn't it be good --
17 MR. WEBER: Sure.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- to know what the ethnicity is as he started
19 thinking from?
20 MR. WEBER: Of course.
21 Q. Sir, when you stated that ordinary soldiers of other ethnicities
22 put down their weapons, is it correct that these soldiers were Croat and
23 Muslim?
24 A. No. Some officers were Croats, but there were no Croats in the
25 area of Sokolac, Rogatica, and Vlasenica -- or perhaps just a few.
Page 22976
1 For the most part, they were Muslims, and they were the most
2 numerous group in the 216th Brigade.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The question was about ordinary soldiers, not about
4 officers. When you said "ordinary soldiers of other ethnicities, did you
5 mean to say other than Serbs?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. WEBER:
10 Q. Sir, is it correct that Bascarsija was the most culturally and
11 historically important part of Sarajevo?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Bascarsija is the old part of Sarajevo and it is comprised of
14 small houses and buildings; correct?
15 A. Yes. Old houses built in the Turkish style. The Ottoman empire
16 reigned in that part of the world leaving its culture traces behind as
17 well as the Austrian Hungarian Empire. Such buildings were not to be
18 targeted a General Milosevic personally ordered. Even if fire was opened
19 from such buildings, we were ordered not to engage them. We only used
20 one Howitzer, 150 --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Had we fired from a
22 single Howitzer battery --
23 A. -- all of Bascarsija would have been gone. And you could
24 actually check that. It is the same as it had been in 1991. It was
25 preserved, 100 per cent.
Page 22977
1 Q. Sir, I just want to be clear on your view here. Is it correct
2 that you view that it would be inappropriate for the SRK to target
3 Bascarsija because of the culture importance of its buildings and the
4 significant presence of civilians?
5 A. Precisely so.
6 Q. In fact, Mr. Veljovic, there were SRK orders and fire plans to
7 target Bascarsija; correct?
8 A. There were no such orders. Actually, the order was not to fire
9 at Bascarsija unless ordered by the commander. I didn't see any other
10 documents to that effect. So fire could only be opened on -- if
11 personally proved by General Milosevic while he was in command, and I
12 presume the same was in place during Galic's commanding. And you can
13 check. Bascarsija remains the same as it had been before the war. The
14 houses there are so old and derelict that they are so soft that a single
15 shell could cause major damage.
16 Q. Sir, if you could please listen to my questions. There is no
17 need to repeat your answers. It's clear what you said so far.
18 Is it correct, then, that any time the SRK filed a shell on
19 Bascarsija it was approved by the corps commander?
20 A. No shell was ever fired at Bascarsija.
21 Q. Okay. Let's go through some stuff.
22 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P4423.
23 Q. Mr. Veljovic, before you is a 26 November 1992 SRK order from
24 Radislav Cvetkovic to the 4th MAP and 4th MPOAP. Is it correct that
25 these two regiments were controlled at the corps level?
Page 22978
1 A. It is true that they were controlled by the corps command. At
2 the time, I wasn't with the command of the corps, since this dates back
3 to the 26th of November. It was received by the artillery chief and --
4 Q. Sir --
5 A. -- the artillery commander.
6 Q. Sir, we're going to go through the document.
7 MR. WEBER: Can the Prosecution please have the last page of the
8 order in both versions.
9 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to again direct your attention to the initials
10 over to the left, and we see the initials RC. Is it correct that this
11 would mean that Radislav Cvetkovic was the drafter of this document?
12 A. Most likely. And the chief of artillery also signed it.
13 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please go to page 2 of both
14 versions.
15 Q. Under the section of this order entitled: "Firing Tasks,"
16 Colonel Cvetkovic orders the engagement of fire on a number of locations.
17 I'd like to direct your attention to the third paragraph from the
18 top of this page in the B/C/S original. This is the second paragraph
19 from the top in the English translation. The order states:
20 "Support the offensive by engaging fire along the following
21 axis," the last of which is Borija-Bascarsija.
22 Is it correct that this order indicates that fire should be
23 engaged from Borija, which is in the SRK territory, and into Bascarsija?
24 That is the axis that this order indicates should be fired upon.
25 A. I can't find it.
Page 22979
1 Q. Sir, I believe under item (c), the third paragraph from the top
2 of the page. It's about the first -- a third of the page down.
3 A. It says "open fire in order to support." And the routes are
4 Ciglana, Kobjeglava, Pitslik [phoen], Cuprija. Basic sector --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you, Witness. I think you're reading
6 from the wrong paragraph.
7 If you would look at the top of the page, it starts with a C,
8 where it reads "vatreni zadaci." And then the second and the third
9 paragraph start with the same word, "Podrzati."
10 Now, Mr. Weber wants you to focus on the third paragraph; that is
11 a two-line paragraph in your language. You see that? It refers to
12 giving support on certain axes, the first one Faletici-Zmajevac; and
13 second one Mrkovici-Breka; and the third one, and that's what Mr. Weber
14 is focusing at, Borija-Bascarsija.
15 Do you see that?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. It's correct that this order indicates that fire should be
20 engaged from Borija and into Bascarsija; correct? Along that axis.
21 A. You would need to ask that the gentleman who drafted this order.
22 At the time, I was not a member of the SRK command. I'm not familiar
23 with this order.
24 It does read what you say, but it never came about. Never.
25 Q. Sir --
Page 22980
1 A. Never.
2 Q. Sir --
3 A. I was at Bascarsija after the war --
4 Q. Sir, if you say -- I'm a little confused. If you're saying that
5 you don't know anything about something, but then at the same time you're
6 claiming that it never happened, I'm confused how you could say both.
7 A. Because I saw Bascarsija right after the war. Nothing was
8 destroyed.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not part of the command at
11 that time, and I couldn't have seen this order.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I became a corps command member in
14 1995. I don't know anything about this order.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, if you say that the one contradicts the
16 other, and that I tend to disagree with you.
17 MR. WEBER: Okay.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Because you can not know anything about an order
19 being given and, nevertheless, to establish that what you've seen in your
20 life is inconsistent with the execution of such an order.
21 MR. WEBER: I understand.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That is a possibility. The witness explained that.
23 But when you put the question, I thought you could have already in an
24 attempt to properly understand the witness, you might have come to that
25 thought already.
Page 22981
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. WEBER: That's understood.
3 Your Honour, I'm actually going to move on to another document.
4 I don't know if this is a good time.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then perhaps it's better to take the break
6 first.
7 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
8 We take a break of 20 minutes, Mr. Veljovic, and would like to
9 see you back after that.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, while we are waiting for the witness to
15 be brought in, may I take it that you'll easily finish within the next
16 hour?
17 MR. WEBER: I'll try to make that easily within the next hour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. WEBER: So I approximate about another 35 to 40 minutes.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Veljovic, Mr. Weber will now continue his
22 cross-examination.
23 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30811 for the
25 witness.
Page 22982
1 Q. Mr. Veljovic, this is a document that the Defence tendered
2 through you in the Milosevic case. It is a 12 August 1994 order from SRK
3 Commander Dragomir Milosevic.
4 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please go to the last page of
5 both versions of this order.
6 Q. Above the typewritten signature of this order, there are the
7 initials DM. Is it correct that this indicates Dragomir Milosevic
8 drafted this order himself?
9 A. Well, it does say DM/UM. Most likely it is so, but I find it
10 rather unlikely that the commander would draft a document himself. In
11 any case, his name is not in the signature bloc.
12 Q. Yes. We understand that this was a dispatch that you had
13 testified to before.
14 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please go to the first page of
15 the B/C/S original but stay on the same page of the English translation.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I seek a clarification.
17 Mr. Veljovic, you said his name, and that was a reference to
18 Dragomir Milosevic, his name doesn't appear in the signature bloc.
19 What do you mean by that?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I find it strange that someone else
21 signed the order and that Milosevic dictated it, although he was the
22 corps commander. I don't know why someone else would sign it, but I may
23 be oblivious.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we go back to the last page in B/C/S.
25 Do you see a name in the signature bloc?
Page 22983
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Dragomir Milosevic. But
2 there -- there -- he didn't sign it.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There is no signature to be seen. Thank you.
4 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honours, excuse me, I might have been off
5 on the -- the page. If we could go back to page 1 of the B/C/S and go --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so --
7 MR. WEBER: Okay.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- you said I would be surprised if one else signed
9 for him. But there is no signature at all under the document, so I did
10 not fully understand what you meant by someone else signing for him.
11 Apart from that, that seems to be a telex-type communication,
12 which is not equipped for signatures to be -- to be communicated. So I
13 do not fully see what -- what you intend to tell us.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is strange that he may have
15 dictated this document, that somebody else typed it, that there is his
16 name in the signature bloc, and there is no signature.
17 On the other hand, the heading is appropriately worded, and the
18 document came from the command so all that is strange.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
20 MR. WEBER: Okay. If I could go -- please go to page 1 of the
21 B/C/S and page 2 of the English translation. And in the B/C/S, if we
22 could please scroll down towards the bottom of the page. As with the
23 same in the English translation.
24 Q. Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to item number 7. Under
25 this item, General Milosevic orders:
Page 22984
1 "Artillery anti-aircraft missile unit and armoured mechanised
2 units to be on stand-by with necessary forces and equipment to act on
3 targets on earth and in air-space."
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Weber, this is not exactly what we see on
5 this English translation.
6 MR. WEBER: I'm sorry if I misread the order, Your Honour. I'll
7 reread it.
8 Q. "Artillery anti-aircraft defence artillery and rocket units and
9 armoured mechanised units to be on stand-by with necessary forces and
10 equipment to act on targets on the ground and in the air-space."
11 And then under the second indentation, it says:
12 "4th Mixed Artillery Regiment is to draw up a fire plan in the
13 region of Bascarsija and Vrbanja. Fire is to be opened according to the
14 order from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps Command Post."
15 Sir, I put it to you that the SRK command did, in fact, issue
16 orders for fire plans that targeted Bascarsija.
17 Do you have any comment?
18 A. Most probably that was the case. However, fire was not to be
19 opened without his order.
20 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders the document at this time.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30811 receives number P6606, Your
23 Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
25 MR. WEBER:
Page 22985
1 Q. Sir, before I go on to another document, I just want to note: Do
2 you understand the English language? Are you able to read or write it?
3 Okay.
4 A. No.
5 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30856. The
6 B/C/S translation of this document is pending, so with Your Honours'
7 leave, I'd just read out the sections to the witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's see how much it is. And if you would
9 please read slowly --
10 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Weber.
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. Mr. Veljovic --
14 MR. WEBER: And if we could please scroll down a little bit.
15 Q. Mr. Veljovic, this is an UNPROFOR sitrep from Sector Sarajevo
16 dated 21 March 1993. I'm going to read a few portions of this sitrep to
17 you. If at any time you need me to repeat what I'm saying, please let me
18 know.
19 Under section 2, it says:
20 "Response. I responded to Dr. Ganic as follows:"
21 And then there is a subpart, a, that says "Shelling Activity."
22 Under item 1, the sitrep says:
23 "HQ Sector Sarajevo was well aware of the shelling activity in
24 the old city. Military observers in observation posts overlooking the
25 area had recorded the attacks."
Page 22986
1 MR. WEBER: And then I'd like to read one more portion to the
2 witness. Could we please have page 2 of this sitrep.
3 Q. Under item 3, it states:
4 "Investigation. The following investigative action was taken:"
5 There is a subpart a.
6 "Number of Impacts. A fair estimate of the number of artillery
7 and mortar impacts recorded by the UNMOs in the old city area, from
8 approx 0530 hours to approx 1000 hours on 21 Mar, is in excess of 400.
9 While not a record, it is an unusually high number of impacts in this
10 area. It should be noted that the total number of impacts recorded for
11 the entire area under observation for today is 2398."
12 Sir, I put it to you that Bascarsija, the old city, was in fact
13 shelled, that at times it was heavily shelled, and it did cause
14 destruction or damage to the Bascarsija area.
15 Do you have any comment?
16 A. I have no comment. I was not a corps member at that time. I am
17 not familiar with this order. I guarantee you that that didn't happen.
18 The old city is a large area which belonged to both the Serbs and
19 the Muslims; i.e., it was in -- under their control. It is Sedrenik,
20 Bistrik, Bascarsija, Polog, Hresa, and it goes all the way to Vucija Luka
21 [phoen]. All that is in the old city. When this happened, I don't know.
22 I don't know who this order was sent to and when.
23 In 1994, in the month of December, I was a corps member;
24 therefore, I was never familiar with this particular order. If that many
25 shells had ever fallen on the old city, they would have caused havoc.
Page 22987
1 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders the document into evidence.
2 We ask that it be MFI'd -- I'm sorry, Your Honours. The translation is
3 not complete. If we could inform the Chamber when it is complete.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number assigned to this
5 document would be ...
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30856 receives number P6607, Your
7 Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Pending translation, P6607 is marked for
9 identification.
10 MR. WEBER:
11 Q. Sir, I'm going to move on to another topic. And before I show
12 you something, I'm just going to explain you something --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I'm a bit concerned and a bit worried by
16 a possible misunderstanding.
17 The English texts here relates to "the old city area." Now you
18 have not explained that much why -- whether the old city area is the same
19 as Bascarsija, or whether Bascarsija is part of that old city. Well,
20 that would need more attention to know exactly whether Bascarsija was
21 targeted.
22 But there is another matter. The witness says that the old city
23 area was, to some extent, even under Serb control, which makes me fear
24 that he has a totally different understanding and that Stari Grad, which
25 means the old town, which may not be the city centre itself, that there
Page 22988
1 is some confusion caused by the difference in language as well which has
2 not been clarified until now.
3 MR. WEBER: Judge, I understand your concern. And I think at
4 least what would be relevant for the testimony of the witness is to get
5 his understanding, and I'm happy to do so.
6 Q. Mr. --
7 JUDGE ORIE: He gave -- he gave some of it.
8 MR. WEBER: Okay.
9 JUDGE ORIE: He said that the old city area was partly under Serb
10 control, and you just moved to your next subject.
11 So if you say "seeking that," I mean, the witness hinted at it,
12 but you apparently did not catch it.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. WEBER: I am not sure where we're at. Would you like me to
15 ask a -- is there something that --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I've explained to you what my concerns are and
17 the evidence that you are eliciting at this moment, so it's up to you to
18 see whether you can make any clearer and how to do that.
19 MR. WEBER: Okay.
20 Q. Sir, do you consider Bascarsija a part of the old city?
21 A. Yes, one part of it is part of the old city. The entire area of
22 Sedrenik, the entire area of Bistrik, and both were under the control of
23 the Muslim forces. Our parts were Hresa, Bolazi [phoen] and one part of
24 Trebevic. The inhabited part of Trebevic; several villages there. And
25 the entire residential area of the old city was under the control of the
Page 22989
1 Muslim forces.
2 We're talking about the municipality of Stari Grad, which is
3 quite spacious.
4 Q. Okay. With that, sir, I'm going to move on to another topic.
5 In the Karadzic case, the Office of the Prosecutor was provided
6 with two statements from you. These two statements are almost the same
7 in substance. The one that was tendered and admitted in this case as
8 D532 has a few additional paragraphs.
9 Paragraph 2 of the admitted statement in this case states: "I
10 testified in the case of Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic," and
11 provides the case number. This paragraph was different from your other
12 Karadzic statement which has not been tendered, which is what I'd now
13 like to discuss with you.
14 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30805.
15 JUDGE ORIE: This document are two B/C/S texts under this number.
16 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution apologises for that. I
17 do have the English in front of me. If I -- I can read it and then we
18 could replace it, if that's okay.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there is any way you could get it on the
20 screen, if it's uploaded under any other number, then we would like to
21 see it. Because the Chamber is usually inclined to follow also in
22 reading what you --
23 MR. WEBER: Of course. It was the copy that was filed with the
24 92 ter motion.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we may have that before us.
Page 22990
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. WEBER:
3 Q. Directing your attention to paragraph 2 of your other Karadzic
4 statement, it states:
5 "At the beginning of the interview, I was shown a summary of the
6 transcript of my testimony before the Tribunal" -- excuse me, "testimony
7 before the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague in case," and
8 there is IT-98-29/1-T, "I hereby confirm its contents and add the
9 following."
10 Mr. Veljovic, do you confirm that this is what happened during
11 your interview with the Karadzic Defence?
12 A. Can you go on reading? What are you referring to?
13 Q. Sir, if you can look at paragraph 2 of the -- of your other
14 statement in front of us, can you confirm that that is what happened
15 during your interview with the Karadzic Defence?
16 A. [No interpretation].
17 Q. Sir, there is no recorded interpretation. Did you provide an
18 answer?
19 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness did but --
20 MR. WEBER:
21 Q. Sir --
22 A. No, I didn't say anything. I just read that I testified in
23 The Hague, before the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague in the
24 case IT-98-29/1-T. I hereby confirm its contents and add the following.
25 I'm a timber technician, that's under number 3, and so on and so forth.
Page 22991
1 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you there.
2 The question by Mr. Weber was whether you were, indeed, shown a
3 summary of the transcript of your testimony in the case mentioned and
4 whether you then confirmed the content of that.
5 Did that happen?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most probably it was shown to me.
7 I don't remember at the moment. I only remember the case designation,
8 but I don't know what it refers to, what case we're talking about. What
9 does the number stand for?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the Dragomir Milosevic case? Yes --
11 MR. WEBER: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Weber, that --
13 MR. WEBER: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- that should have been -- if you would have said
15 that immediately.
16 Well, the question is whether the Karadzic Defence lawyers, or
17 the Defence team, whether they had shown you a summary of the testimony
18 you had given in the Dragomir Milosevic case and whether you then
19 confirmed its contents and then added other things.
20 Is that what happened?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't ask me much about
22 Milosevic before I came to testify in the Mladic case. They just --
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- gave me some outlines --
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
Page 22992
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but very little.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Who -- who -- one second, please.
3 When you say, "they just gave me some outline," who is "they"?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor asked me something
5 about the Milosevic case.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Not --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly what. I don't
8 know what he asked me.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's -- let's go back.
10 This is a statement which was given to the Karadzic Defence, and
11 it states that at the beginning of the interview - that is, the interview
12 with the Karadzic Defence, not the Mladic Defence but the Karadzic
13 Defence - that at the beginning of the interview, you were shown - that
14 is, on paper - a summary of the testimony you had given in the Milosevic
15 case and that you then said, "Well, I confirm the content of what you
16 just have shown me."
17 Is that what happened, when preparing for your Karadzic
18 testimony?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they didn't show me this
20 IT-98-29/1-T. They didn't show it to me. They just asked me questions
21 in the courtroom.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Mr. Stojanovic, one question for you. You -- this is what you
24 produced. What summary was shown to the witness, as far as the Mladic
25 Defence is concerned? I mean, the witness confirms a summary, which is
Page 22993
1 apparently not a full transcript of his Dragomir Milosevic Defence [sic],
2 so the Chamber would be interested to know what was shown to him and ask
3 you whether you could tell us.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to tell
5 you what I did with the witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I can't tell you what the
8 Karadzic Defence team did with him.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Stop. You present to us this material as relevant
10 for our decision-making, so I'm not asking you what you did, but I'm
11 asking you what summary was shown to the witness by the Karadzic Defence.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] According to what I learned from
13 Witness Veljovic was that when -- before he testified in the Karadzic
14 case, the Karadzic Defence team told him -- or, rather, reminded him and
15 briefly reminded him of how he testified in the Milosevic case. They
16 asked him if he wanted to stick by that testimony, he confirmed, but that
17 he also wishes to add something. After having received such an answer
18 from Mr. Veljovic, this Defence team learned that Mr. Veljovic has other
19 things to add before he came to testify, and that's what we added to his
20 previous statement to which he fully adheres.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you did not immediately inform everyone
22 that where it says that the witness was shown a summary, which he
23 confirms, which is quite an important matter, that that, in fact, had not
24 been done, and that he was just orally -- and that you did not even know.
25 You didn't verify with the Karadzic Defence. You just let us read that
Page 22994
1 the witness was shown a summary, and that's what you want to present as
2 evidence.
3 Not knowing what the summary was, even thinking that there was no
4 written summary at all that could have been shown to him. That's
5 apparently the situation. I can't -- I can't find anything else.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] My conclusion precisely, Your
7 Honours. The witness told us that he was reminded of what he said, that
8 the transcript was verbally presented to him --
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- in a shortened form. I don't
11 know what else the Karadzic Defence team did.
12 JUDGE ORIE: But, Mr. Stojanovic, that's now the second time you
13 tell us, and I've heard that, but that contradicts what is in a statement
14 you present to us as evidence. Because the statement says, "I was shown
15 a summary."
16 Therefore, my question: Where is the summary? So that we know
17 at least what the witness would have confirm. Then you say there was no
18 summary, at least no written summary; and, at the same time, you present
19 in evidence that there was a written summary. That is, at the best,
20 sloppy. Let's leave it to that.
21 Mr. Weber -- well, if you want to add anything, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due
23 respect, I take note of what you're saying.
24 In the statement, it says clearly that there are no written
25 transcripts. It says here, in the B/C/S version, at the beginning of the
Page 22995
1 interview: "I was confronted with the summary of the transcript," and
2 this is what the witness told us, but he did -- he wasn't shown a
3 written, a full written transcript. The witness never told us that.
4 The Karadzic Defence team just confronted him with the outlines
5 of the transcript. It doesn't say in the B/C/S version that the witness
6 was ever shown a written summary of the transcript, or the full
7 transcript for that matter.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, when I use strong wordings, if there
9 is a translation issue, which could have been clear if the Prosecution
10 would have uploaded both the B/C/S and the English version of this, then
11 we would have identified that. Because in English it doesn't say "I was
12 shown the transcript" or "I was" -- if you say "I was shown," that means
13 you can look at it. Well, you can't look at words. You can only look at
14 objects and that would be a text. But if the original says, "I was
15 confronted with a summary of my Dragomir Milosevic testimony," then it
16 may well be that the translation does not reflect what the original says.
17 MR. WEBER: I -- Your Honour, in the first manner, we have
18 corrected the upload. We do have that available now as 65 ter 30805a.
19 And, Your Honours, thank you for your indulgence on that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So --
21 MR. WEBER: So with respect to the second matter, I don't how
22 else to actually reconcile that except to ask for some type of
23 verification or --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have to -- it's certain that the translation
25 of paragraph 2, and then especially the first sentence of this document,
Page 22996
1 should be verified by CLSS. Mainly focusing on whether -- well, I leave
2 it to that.
3 MR. WEBER: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if I was use -- again, if I use
5 strong words, and if it's due to a translation error, then I apologise
6 for that. But, unfortunately, I cannot work but in the language I
7 master. And apparently you have the same problem as far as your language
8 is concerned.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Please don't hold it against me,
10 Your Honour. But, quite simply, I'm all tense myself, and I'm getting
11 lost myself with all these three statements from three trials, and I
12 cannot even remember all the things that I discussed with all these
13 different people, so many of them, so I really do apologise.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, everyone is now at ease again.
15 Mr. Weber, you as well? Then please proceed.
16 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I know you had a preference for not
17 having multiple statements in, but the statement that is admitted is very
18 similar to this statement. I've pointed out the main differential. I
19 don't know if you want to mark it for identification, or just not have
20 it, and then have an oral report at a later date as to the verification
21 of the paragraph.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you first elicit the evidence and then we'll see
23 what we might need on the record. If there are small portions to be
24 read, it's fine. If it's longer portions we'll have to look at, then we
25 might find other solutions.
Page 22997
1 MR. WEBER: Okay.
2 Q. Mr. Veljovic, is it correct that the contents of your statements,
3 both of them, in the Karadzic case were additions to matters that you did
4 not mention during your testimony in the Milosevic case?
5 A. Well, it certainly does contain what I did not mention during the
6 Milosevic case, but you see how this goes.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
8 come closer to the microphone and could all unnecessary microphones
9 please be switched off. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You were invited to come closer to the microphone,
11 Mr. Veljovic.
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. Sir, in the Karadzic case, at transcript page 29262, you were
14 asked about your previous testimony in the Milosevic case. You were
15 asked the following:
16 "Q. And when you came here to testify in his defence, you knew
17 what he was charged with at the time?"
18 You answered:
19 "Yes, I knew what he had been charged with."
20 Do you stand by this testimony?
21 A. Well, I did not fully read his indictment, but I know what he was
22 indicted for, the blockade of Sarajevo, shelling. I don't know all these
23 things that were put forth by the Prosecutor. Sniping, killings.
24 Q. Were you aware that General Milosevic was charged with the
25 shelling of the Markale market-place on 28 August 1995 when you testified
Page 22998
1 in his case?
2 A. I knew that he was charged for Markale, for what had happened on
3 the 28th of August, but General Milosevic was not really commander of the
4 Sarajevo Romanija Corps at that time. It was Cedo Sladoje. And I kept
5 saying that time and again. And it wasn't taken into account until it
6 was proven before the court.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you were aware of
8 General Milosevic being charged with the shelling of the Markale market.
9 The first line of your answer completely answers the question:
10 You knew that he was charged for Markale. All the rest was not asked.
11 Mr. Weber may have other questions for you.
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. Is it correct that you testified in the Milosevic case for four
14 days?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is it correct that you were asked about your time in the
17 4th Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade during your Milosevic testimony?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it correct that you were specifically asked about the staffing
20 level of the 4th Slpbr and the weapons you had?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. During your Milosevic testimony, is it correct that you did not
23 claim that two 120-millimetre mortars from the 4th Slpbr were redeployed
24 from Trebevic to Trebinje in August 1995? This is just something you
25 added for your testimony in the Karadzic case for the first time;
Page 22999
1 correct?
2 A. Well, I couldn't have testified about that in the Milosevic case
3 when they hadn't asked me about it. They didn't ask me about Markale at
4 all.
5 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, there might be --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Find it where they asked me about
7 the Markale situation in the Milosevic case.
8 MR. WEBER:
9 Q. Sir, my question wasn't about whether you were asked about the
10 Markale market. You've already confirm that you were asked about the
11 equipment you had and its deployments, its staffing level. So I want to
12 stay and focus on that.
13 A. Yes, they asked me about the weapons, deployment, and personnel
14 that we had.
15 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I'm happy to go through two pages of
16 transcript from the Milosevic testimony. The witness has confirmed the
17 fact that he did not discuss the specific things. I don't know if it's
18 going to be -- if you want me to spend the time doing it, or if you would
19 just -- I don't know if the Defence would have any objection --
20 JUDGE ORIE: If you would.
21 MR. WEBER: -- if I would just tender the two pages for the
22 Chamber to be able to assess it on its own.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Or agree that he did not address the matter. I
24 mean, to read in those two pages to find out that the witness did not say
25 in those two pages anything about the -- apparently the removal of
Page 23000
1 certain equipment at a certain period of time and that he just testified
2 about the equipment overall they had without referring to temporary
3 absence of part of that equipment, I think the parties could agree on
4 that, isn't it?
5 MR. WEBER: That would be fine. But it would also allow the
6 Chamber to see that he was asked questions which may have triggered other
7 information.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if there are specific questions, you say,
9 "Well, this should have" -- a complete answer would have required, then
10 please --
11 MR. WEBER: I --
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- either give them to us or agree with
13 Mr. Stojanovic that we can read them, and then ...
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is with pleasure that I will
15 reach an agreement with the Prosecution on that. If the Prosecutor also
16 agrees that this kind of question about units and artillery pieces of the
17 brigade that was headed by the witness had not been put in that concrete
18 case, then I agree.
19 MR. WEBER: I don't agree with that. If we agree that the
20 transcript can come in, I believe the Chamber can assess it for itself as
21 to what was asked and what was in the context of that.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently on -- I leave it to you whether you want
24 to wait for the break and to see what you can agree upon with
25 Mr. Stojanovic, or to start now, but the Chamber would not be -- would
Page 23001
1 not highly appreciate to hear an oral recitation of two pages of a
2 document mainly to find out what is not in there.
3 MR. WEBER: Okay.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Find a suitable way of resolving it.
5 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Q. In paragraph 30 of your statement, admitted as D532, you claim
7 that your brigade, the 4th Slpbr, had a mortar battery with two
8 120-millimetre mortars in the Brus sector. Is it correct that this
9 sector is on the eastern portion of Mount Trebevic?
10 A. Yes, that is correct. But it's not the eastern portion of
11 Mount Trebevic, it's the central portion.
12 Q. In paragraph 31, you claim that your mortar battery and 160 men
13 were sent to the Trebinje front around the 24th of August, 1995. Do I
14 understand correctly that it is your evidence that you sent two
15 120-millimetre mortars and six 82-millimetre mortars to Trebinje?
16 A. Yes, that is what I claim.
17 Q. Do I understand correctly that the 160 men and the mortar battery
18 were the only support that you sent to the Herzegovina Corps?
19 A. Those 160 men were not mine. Perhaps 80 were mine, and the rest
20 is from the sabotage detachment from the corps. And my deputy was
21 appointed commander of that unit - Kojic, Radomir - to go and help the
22 Herzegovina Corps. Since he led that unit, he took his own resources
23 because he trusted his own resources as support, and he took these
24 mortars and took his own unit because he had full support -- he had full
25 confidence that they would support him the best. And I reacted and I
Page 23002
1 called Cedo at that time because Cedo was the commander --
2 Q. Sir -- sir, I'm sorry to cut you off. I wasn't asking for --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the witness
4 anyway.
5 MR. WEBER:
6 Q. Sir, if we could please go through this in an orderly fashion and
7 please listen to my questions.
8 Is what you described in your statement and in -- in just your
9 answer just now, the only support that you sent to the Herzegovina Corps?
10 A. The only support that was sent by the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.
11 Q. These weapons from the battery were no longer available to your
12 brigade; correct?
13 A. Yes. Until it returned from the area of Trebinje. In the month
14 of September, around the middle of the month, it returned from Trebinje.
15 Q. Is it your evidence that you left your positions on the Trebevic
16 axis undefended at the end of August 1995?
17 A. Yes, we left them undefended as far as my brigade was concerned.
18 However, the corps gave me approval for the corps artillery to support me
19 because the mortars of the other battalions were far away. Gorazde, the
20 Nisici plateau, I did not have any battalions nearby. The brigade was
21 deployed towards Gorazde, the Jahorina Battalion towards Olovo, and the
22 Trebevic Battalion towards the city of Sarajevo. Since, at Borije, there
23 was a mixed artillery regiment, that regiment could have supported me at
24 any point in time.
25 There wasn't any combat, and I never asked for any support
Page 23003
1 because the offensive was practically over, and the army was at peace.
2 There weren't any provocations coming from the Muslims, so I had no need
3 to use the artillery. If it was necessary, then I would have called the
4 corps, and the corps group would support me from Borije.
5 Q. Did the corps artillery take up your positions on Mount Trebevic?
6 A. Well, yes, and they helped me many times. Not the entire corps
7 artillery but part of it.
8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30809.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: While that comes up, Mr. Weber, could you please
10 look at line 21 on page 44. I just want to clarify, did you ask:
11 "Did the corps artillery take up your positions" or "their
12 positions"?
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, thank you for catching that. I believe
14 I said "did the corps artillery take up your positions on
15 Mount Trebevic."
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was your intention to say "your positions".
17 MR. WEBER: Yes, correct.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours. I
19 think that the question is a confusing one and not precise. What does
20 that mean, "to take over positions"? Physically or by artillery fire? I
21 think it would be fairer to the witness to put the question in a
22 different way.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You can do so in re-examination, Mr. Stojanovic. At
24 least taking a position is, for me, clear language, but if there is any
25 doubt about that, please explore that later on.
Page 23004
1 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution -- I believe, actually -- yup,
2 the document is before us.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as for what you
4 said and what the Prosecutor said just now: None of that has been
5 interpreted. I see General Mladic reacting to that as well.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then I re-read it so that Mr. Mladic is able to
7 hear it.
8 Mr. Stojanovic, you raised the issue about the unclarity of the
9 question and thought it would be fairer to the witness to put the
10 question in a different way. Then I said: "You can do so in
11 re-examination, Mr. Stojanovic. At least taking a position is, for me,
12 clear language, but if there is any doubt about that, please explore that
13 later on."
14 And then Mr. Weber said:
15 "Could the Prosecution -- I believe, actually -- yup, the
16 document is before us."
17 That's what he said. And then you intervened.
18 The record being complete now again, please proceed, Mr. Weber.
19 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 For the record, before us on the screen is 65 ter 30809.
21 Q. Mr. Veljovic, this is a 17 August 1995 4th Slpbr report on the
22 state of combat readiness.
23 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please go to the end of the
24 document.
25 Q. Is it correct that this report is from you?
Page 23005
1 A. Yes, correct. My signature is here.
2 MR. WEBER: Could we please return to the first page of both
3 versions.
4 Q. On this first page, under section (a), your report states:
5 "The brigade is stretched along the front carrying out its combat
6 tasks along the following three axes: Nisici, Trebevic, and Praca."
7 Is it correct that your brigade was still active on the Trebevic
8 axis as of this date?
9 A. It was, with one battalion.
10 Q. In the next paragraph, the report states:
11 "Even though the brigade had barely got to its feet, it was
12 immediately thrown into the fire, and 100 troops were engaged on the
13 Trebinje axis and 70 troops on the Trnovo front, making the already wide
14 zone of responsibility even more vulnerable."
15 Sir, I put it to you that contrary to your statement that, in
16 fact, you had already sent 100 troops to the Herzegovina Corps by the
17 17th of August.
18 A. Well, yes, that's what I said. Earlier on, the 23rd, 24th. So I
19 sent them earlier to the Herzegovina Corps, August, before the situation
20 in Markale took place, and that is what I reported too.
21 Q. Is it correct that this part of your report makes no reference to
22 the sending of a mortar battery? It simply states 100 troops were
23 engaged on the Trebinje axis.
24 A. Yes. But the commander on the Trebinje axis was Commander Kojic,
25 my deputy, who asked for support. One hundred men of mine and Srdjan's
Page 23006
1 from the Sabotage Detachment. And he asked for resources by way of
2 support, and the corps didn't give him any, and he said that he would
3 take his own from Trebevic and that the corps should take care of
4 supporting me rather than bringing weapons to my positions where the
5 mortars were.
6 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I see it's break time. I do have more
7 questions on the document.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take a break, and we'll resume - after
9 the witness has left the courtroom - at 10 minutes past 12.00.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Recess taken at 11.52 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to enter the
14 courtroom, any news?
15 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, we did have a discussion with the
16 Defence over the course of the break, and I believe it's the agreement
17 between the parties that two pages of Mr. Veljovic's previous Milosevic
18 transcript could be admitted. These pages being page 5834 and -35 from
19 those proceedings. The Prosecution is in the process of uploading those
20 materials under 65 ter number 30807a.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Once that's done, please inform the Chamber so that
23 we can decide on admission.
24 Mr. Stojanovic, I take it that you -- Mr. Weber has presented
25 your agreement accurately.
Page 23007
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right. May I just
2 confirm.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Meanwhile, please proceed, Mr. Weber.
5 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both
6 versions of the document on the screen.
7 Q. Mr. Veljovic, I'd like to direct your attention to the middle of
8 the page in the B/C/S, the part that states:
9 "We are unable to form:"
10 In the paragraph right underneath that, there is a discussion of
11 fire support platoons in the infantry companies. Do you see this section
12 of your report?
13 A. I see that.
14 Q. Is it correct that this section makes no reference to the lack of
15 120-millimetre mortars in your brigade?
16 A. Since the order arrived from the corps to establish a group of
17 people consisting of 106 combatants and that they should be sent to the
18 front line in Trebinje, I formed a group of 60 men and that included
19 support. These 70 men I sent to Trebinje are from the platoons of
20 mortars of 82 millimetres, 120 millimetres, and also the assault platoon
21 that I had. And the other men were from the 10th Sabotage --
22 Q. Sir --
23 A. -- Detachment of Srdjan Knezevic.
24 Q. Sir, please listen to my questions, and you -- you've already
25 stated that.
Page 23008
1 My question was just simply that there's no reference in this
2 section to the lack of 120-millimetre mortars; is that correct?
3 A. Well, we could not establish a battery because six weapons are
4 needed for that, and we had only two. And those two were sent with the
5 82s to --
6 JUDGE ORIE: That wasn't the question.
7 The question was whether the report explains what you apparently
8 want to explain to us. Does it say anything about mortars not being
9 there? That's the question. 120 millimetre.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, could you read this out for
11 me, please? I cannot see it very well. Can you tell me what is written
12 there?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the report is about the --
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, if you want me to read this section --
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- the combat readiness. But we did not find
16 anything on the relocation or the removal of mortars, even if
17 temporarily. And we are not going to read the entire document for you to
18 find out that it isn't there.
19 If there is any relevant portion, Mr. Stojanovic in
20 re-examination, will deal with the matter.
21 Please proceed Mr. Weber.
22 MR. WEBER:
23 Q. Mr. Veljovic, at the end of this section, immediately above the
24 words "logistical support," your report states that the brigade staffing
25 level is at 89 per cent, and in parentheses, it says it should have 1.732
Page 23009
1 men and it has 1.568 men.
2 Is this information accurate?
3 A. Accurate.
4 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 30809 into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is not 30807a? No. It's 08. Okay.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 30809 will be P6608.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P6608 is admitted.
12 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30808.
13 And if we could please just go up briefly in the English. Thank
14 you.
15 Q. Sir, this is a 31 August 1995 listing from the command of the
16 4th Slpbr which lists, according to the first sentence above the listing
17 of the munitions:
18 "Pursuant to your request," then there is a number, "we hereby
19 submit the availability of ammunition and fuel to the brigade."
20 MR. WEBER: If we could please go to the end of the document.
21 Q. Is it correct that this document is from you?
22 A. Yes, it is correct that it is my document.
23 MR. WEBER: If we could please go back to the previous page.
24 Q. Under item number 11, it relates to mortar 120 mm M 75, and then
25 going across it says "arms availability," and says 13.
Page 23010
1 Sir, I put it to you that even after you sent men to Trebinje
2 that you had 120 -- that you had at least 13 120-millimetre mortars
3 available to you in your brigade.
4 A. It is correct that I had 13 120-millimetre pieces; two in
5 Trebevic, six at the Nisic plateau, which is 50 kilometres away from
6 Sarajevo; and the rest of the mortars were in the direction of Gorazde.
7 I couldn't have taken anything from the Igman and Podrinje Battalions in
8 order to have more mortars, and I also included on this list the number
9 of mortars which went to Trebinje. They, too, belonged to my unit, and
10 they were supposed to return eventually.
11 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender this
12 document into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 30808 will be P6609.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
16 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I'd like to report that the two
17 transcript pages have now been uploaded. I know Mr. Stojanovic still
18 needs time. But with that, the Prosecution has no further questions.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Madam Registrar, could you please repeat the number under which
21 now the two pages are uploaded and assign a number to them so that they
22 can be admitted.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the two pages have been uploaded
24 under 30807a, and they receive number P60 -- 6610.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And this document is admitted into evidence.
Page 23011
1 Mr. Stojanovic, usually transcript pages are not translated. If
2 there would be any specific need to have them translated here, but I
3 would suggest to you that since the main purpose is to find out what is
4 not on those pages, that perhaps exceptionally we could do without. But
5 we would like to hear from you if you take a different position.
6 Then, Mr. Veljovic, if Mr. Stojanovic has any further questions
7 for you, he'll re-examine you now.
8 Mr. Stojanovic -- but perhaps I -- before I give you an
9 opportunity to do that, we have looked at the combat readiness, we have
10 looked at a document about availability of ammunition and fuel, all in
11 order to establish whether the mortars were relocated, were sent
12 elsewhere in August 1995, yes or no.
13 Now, the orders, as you said, were ordered to send them to the
14 Trebinje front, were they in writing or ...
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a corps command, which
16 was oral, because the corps could not support assets. Then they said
17 that they could provide corps support for our battalion from their
18 positions and that our mortars go to the Trebinje theater.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing I would like to know is whether there
20 is any written order saying, "You move your mortars to Trebinje" or
21 "to" -- whether there were any written orders either to the -- going down
22 to the mortar crews who would transport them, or orders coming from the
23 higher level? Because I do understand that they were -- they were sent
24 to Trebinje to assist the Herzegovina Corps, which is another corps,
25 isn't it?
Page 23012
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: But now any written trace of those orders, either
3 coming down from the corps level or between the two corps or being sent
4 down to the levels where it had to be executed?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course there was a corps order
6 to assign a number of personnel to Trebinje. They also stipulated who
7 was to be commander. It was my Chief of Staff, Major Gojic, to accompany
8 the men.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was that in writing?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 100 per cent. Cedo Sladoje
11 was the commander at the time, and his deputy was the -- was Lizdek,
12 Vlado, who was the commander of the 1st Romanija Brigade, given the fact
13 that Milosevic underwent an operation at the time. Since he had been
14 operated on, someone else had to be appointed as acting Chief of Staff by
15 the Main Staff commander.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Did it say anything about the equipment to be taken,
17 mortars? You earlier told us that you do not easily move a mortar from
18 one place to another. Was there any mentioning of that in those orders?
19 Or that order?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That had not been ordered. It
21 was said that units needed corps artillery support, but the corps was in
22 no position to do so.
23 Given that Radomir was in command of the Trebevic Battalion, it
24 was ordered that he would take the assets to the Trebevic theater of war.
25 He took our assets, and Cedo said, "Well, you don't need them anyway
Page 23013
1 because we can give support to your unit at any point in time from Borije
2 from our positions."
3 JUDGE ORIE: Stop, stop --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are both written and oral
5 orders in existence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any written order which specifically deals
7 with the transfer of the mortars, the 120-millimetre mortars, to the
8 Trebinje front in order to assist the Herzegovina Corps?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so. I think there must be
10 a corps order.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because that would be logical, you would say.
12 You wouldn't do that without having a corps order.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The parties --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander could also issue an
16 oral order saying, "Give him those assets, and I will provide support for
17 you instead."
18 JUDGE ORIE: The parties are invited, to the extent possible, to
19 find any written trace of such a transfer of mortar equipment.
20 Then, Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions for the witness?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just two things
22 before I put my first question.
23 Line 19, page 53 of the temporary transcript, the witness
24 mentioned a name of the person who assumed the duty of commanding the
25 unit. However, we only have the last name recorded incorrectly. I can
Page 23014
1 repeat the first and last name, but perhaps it's better for the witness
2 to say so, so that we know the name of his Chief of Staff who went to
3 Trebinje.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Radomir Kojic.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Before Mr. Stojanovic
6 begins with his questions, the interpreter kindly asks that the pauses
7 between questions and answers be strictly observed, given the witness's
8 speed. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, your special attention is requested
10 to take a break after the answer of the witness because the witness is
11 speaking at such a speed that the interpreters really need time and that
12 you, therefore, should wait a moment before you put your next question to
13 the witness.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Can we please have -- actually, while this document is still
17 before us, Your Honour, I have one question for the witness.
18 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Veljovic, you see the document before you
20 dated the 31st of August, 1995.
21 A. I see.
22 Q. In item 11, you inform the command of the SRK that in your
23 brigade there is a total of 13 120-millimetre pieces.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did the figure of 13 include the two pieces sent to the Trebinje
Page 23015
1 theater of war?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the
3 witness's answer.
4 JUDGE ORIE: One second, one second.
5 Witness, could you also have a small pause between question and
6 answer because the interpreters couldn't hear your answer.
7 Could you answer the question again, whether those two sent to
8 Trebinje were included in the 13 listed here.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were included, given the
10 fact that the unit was supposed to return to its original unit. I had to
11 have them included in the report.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you continue, Mr. Stojanovic, may I ask
13 for another clarification.
14 You asked for the full name of the deputy, and the witness said
15 Radomir Kojic, as it is recorded. Before that, he said it was
16 Major Gojic.
17 I would like to ask the witness which of the two names is
18 correct: Kojic or Gojic?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kojic, with a K.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
21 Mr. Stojanovic.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And the one question you said you had for the
23 witness, Mr. Stojanovic, was answered already by him in -- on page 51,
24 line -- I think it's 19.
25 "And I also included on the list the number of mortars which was
Page 23016
1 sent to Trebinje."
2 So that question had been answered. You asked it again, you got
3 the same answer. You had one question, you said, to the witness, but
4 I'll remind you, perhaps after the third or the fourth, that you had only
5 one.
6 Please proceed. Well, we live in the reality that one question
7 sometimes amounts to two or three, or sometimes even four, and I'll
8 remind you about that later. But this one question was superfluous.
9 Please now a relevant question.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
11 Can we have in e-court document P6604, page 2.
12 Q. Mr. Veljovic, the second paragraph of item 5 reads:
13 "Two AB launchers to be prepared" --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic --
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. -- "for action against the elevation" --
17 JUDGE ORIE: We have to move to the next page. We are there now.
18 Please, let me just see what you read.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is the date?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to page 1 in the
21 B/C/S.
22 Q. In the heading of the document, we see that the date is the 10th
23 of August 1994.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us now go back to page 2
25 again.
Page 23017
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not with the corps at the
2 time.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. My question is this: Regardless of the fact that you were not
5 with the corps at the time, do you have any knowledge about whether there
6 was any use of air bombs against the features mentioned therein?
7 A. I have no such knowledge.
8 Q. Thank you. Given the fact that you are a reserve officer, did
9 you ever receive any specialist training in ballistics?
10 A. No. But I did command a mortar platoon with 82-millimetres which
11 used as a part of the battalion artillery support group. That was back
12 in 1983.
13 Q. During the war, did you at any point in time have any direct
14 contact with the preparation and manufacturer of modified air bombs?
15 A. No, none whatsoever. I am not an expert, and I did not work with
16 metal.
17 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the approximate range of modified
18 air bombs?
19 A. Well, I may have picked it up along the way, but I'm not sure. I
20 have never read the rules. I don't know what the range is. Perhaps up
21 to 5 kilometres. That's what I heard.
22 Q. Given the extent of your knowledge, can you tell us what happens
23 if one of the rocket engines mounted on an air bomb fails to ignite?
24 A. There is not any significant range to speak of, and of course it
25 would be diverted to the side of the engine which did not start.
Page 23018
1 Q. Do you know whether the repair institute in Hadzici, given the
2 fact that was a multi-purpose production factory, produced or
3 manufactured launchers on the basis of stands otherwise used for
4 artillery?
5 A. I don't know that.
6 Q. Did you know that the Grad rockets do have their own tables of
7 firing?
8 A. I'm not aware of that.
9 Q. Thank you. Please tell the Court whether, in the SRK, there were
10 multiple rocket launchers such as the Oganj?
11 A. Yes, in the mixed artillery regiment they did have such
12 launchers, although I don't know what kind they were. They may have had
13 the Oganj or the Plamen. Bartula also had some mounted on a vehicle, but
14 I'm not privy to that.
15 Q. Is it a very efficient and lethal asset?
16 A. It is extremely lethal.
17 MR. WEBER: Objection. It's leading. Objection, leading.
18 JUDGE ORIE: What was the objection? Leading.
19 Mr. Stojanovic, could you please refrain from leading.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will rephrase, Your Honour.
21 Q. Please tell the Court, to the extent of your knowledge, what kind
22 of assets it is and what are its possibilities?
23 A. Its possibilities are enormous. It can cover a very large area
24 with its fire-power. It used to be produced in our multi-purpose
25 production factories, including all the tests it had to undergo. It
Page 23019
1 included the multiple rocket-launchers of Oganj, Plamen, and Orkan.
2 However, I'm not familiar with any technical details in terms of firing,
3 use, et cetera. I just know they can cover a very wide area and are
4 particularly lethal when it comes to infantry.
5 Q. Were such assets used at any point in time on the military
6 targets in the city of Sarajevo?
7 A. I don't know. As far as I know, they were not used since 1993,
8 when they were excluded. In order for anyone to use such weapons,
9 UNPROFOR must have been notified.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Veljovic, for your answers and for your
11 assistance.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for
13 this witness, Your Honour.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
16 At the same time, for the Chamber to fully understand the last
17 portion of your examination, we are a bit lost about how details of other
18 armament would shed any light on the air bombs issue. But perhaps you
19 can explain us after the witness has left the courtroom because we are --
20 And I have one other question for you, which is: These locations
21 mentioned as where the air bombs should be directed at when on standby,
22 the Chamber has not heard what kind of positions they are.
23 The witness explained to us that it was just wasteland, nothing
24 there, and the Chamber would like to ask the parties to see whether they
25 can agree on, first of all, where it is, and if it's really empty space
Page 23020
1 there, inaccessible, if you would agree on that, the Chamber would like
2 to know that. If you do not agree on it, the Chamber would like to agree
3 as well. Or if you want to present further evidence on the type of
4 terrain which is meant in this document.
5 No further questions, Mr. Weber?
6 MR. WEBER: No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Veljovic, this concludes your testimony.
8 I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for
9 having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and
10 by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well, Mr. President,
12 and thank you, Judges, as well as everyone else in the courtroom.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
16 MR. IVETIC: We are, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, your next witness is?
18 MR. IVETIC: Mr. Radojcic, Vladimir.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be escorted into the
20 courtroom.
21 Mr. Groome.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, as a preliminary matter with this
23 witness, it is the Prosecution's position that he probably should receive
24 a warning under 90(E). He received it in the Karadzic case. There is an
25 extensive rules of the road file regarding him, and he does acknowledge
Page 23021
1 that he issued the order to fire the air bomb into Hrasnica which is G10
2 in this indictment. So I think, given everything, it is -- it would be
3 appropriate that he be given that warning.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Lukic requested the Defence [sic] not to
5 repeat these kind of things. At the same time, Mr. Lukic, you are the
6 one who has asked for certain orders, which makes it a bit surprising
7 that you objected so much to what -- what the Prosecution did. We leave
8 it in your hands as always.
9 MR. LUKIC: As for this particular witness, I leave it in the
10 hands of Mr. Ivetic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. LUKIC: He's more familiar with that case.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 MR. IVETIC: I would suggest, Your Honours, I have no objection
15 to the 90(E) warning being given at the beginning of the witness's
16 evidence. That was what was done in the Karadzic case. And I --
17 although I don't think that the answers and the questions that I'm going
18 through will raise anything, it's better to perhaps cover the whole ambit
19 of possible testimony.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll take care of that.
21 Good morning -- good afternoon, yes, I'm corrected by my
22 colleagues.
23 Mr. Radojcic, before you give evidence, the Rules require that
24 you make a solemn declaration. The text is handed out to you. May I
25 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
Page 23022
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: VLADIMIR RADOJCIC
4 [Witness answered through interpretation]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojcic, before you'll be examined, I would
8 like to bring the following to your attention.
9 You as a witness, you may object to answer any question if the
10 answer to that question might tend to incriminate yourself. Although we
11 have the possibility to compel you to answer that question, that also
12 would have certain consequences as to whether then your answer could be
13 used in a subsequent prosecution against yourself for any offence. But
14 so if at any time you think that a truthful answer is at risk to
15 incriminate yourself, you may ask not to be obliged to answer that
16 question.
17 Is that clear to you?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clear to me, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then you'll first be examined now by
20 Mr. Ivetic. You find him to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the
21 Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
22 Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
25 Q. Good day, sir.
Page 23023
1 A. Good day.
2 Q. Could you please first state your name for the record.
3 A. My name is Vladimir Radojcic.
4 Q. Thank you, sir.
5 MR. IVETIC: I would like to first call up 65 ter number 1D01625.
6 And with the assistance of the usher, I also have a hard copy that should
7 be shown to the Prosecution first and given to the witness for ease of
8 going through the same.
9 Q. And, sir, if I can direct your attention to the signature that
10 appears on the first page of the original, can you confirm for us if that
11 is your signature that appears there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Have you had the opportunity to review this statement in the
14 Serbian language during proofing subsequent to having signed the same?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And do you have some corrections to the statement which you told
17 me about in proofing?
18 A. Well, I made the first correction on the front page because my
19 date of birth has been misrecorded. Later on, while reading the
20 statement, I noticed two other minor mistakes that do not affect my
21 statement significantly.
22 Q. We'll take them each in turn.
23 MR. IVETIC: If we could first turn to page 11 in the English and
24 page 14 in the Serbian, and it'll -- it'll leak on to the top of page 15.
25 And I think the text that we're talking about is at the top of page 15 in
Page 23024
1 relation to paragraph 55.
2 Q. Sir, is the average deviation for an aerial bomb accurately
3 stated in this paragraph as being 10 to 1.000 metres?
4 A. In the Serbian version of this statement of mine, it is correct;
5 that is to say, it was from 10 metres to 1.000 metres.
6 Q. Let me repeat what's been translated: Is it correct to say that
7 the deviation was from 10 metres to 1.000 metres?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Could you please state what the deviation for an aerial bomb
10 should be, according to your information.
11 A. This deviation should be interpreted in the following way: The
12 deviation was, on average, 10 metres for 1.000 metres, a distance of
13 1.000 metres.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.
15 MR. IVETIC: Now I'd like to turn to paragraph 63 which is on
16 page 12 in the English and page 16 in the Serbian.
17 Q. And is there anything that needs to be corrected in this
18 paragraph, paragraph 63? And I would direct your attention to the
19 English version of the same, so you can compare the information contained
20 in the English and the Serbian.
21 A. In the Serbian version, the information is correct, that my wife
22 worked until the 2nd of May, 1992. In the English version, it is 1993.
23 Q. In the translation we received, we heard "2nd of May, 1992." Is
24 that what, in fact, you meant?
25 A. Yes.
Page 23025
1 MR. IVETIC: Now if we could turn to paragraph 110, which is on
2 page 18 in the English and page 24 in the Serbian.
3 Q. And, again, this would be at paragraph 110.
4 Do you have any corrections to make to any of the information or
5 dates contained in this paragraph?
6 A. It is the 26th of June, 1995.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. As far as I can see, the date is the same in the English version
9 and in the Serbian version.
10 Q. And is that date accurate, according to your recollection?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Now, apart from the changes or clarifications that we've
13 gone through, do you affirm that everything in your statement is accurate
14 to the best of your knowledge?
15 A. I can confirm that.
16 Q. And if I were to ask you the same questions today about the same
17 topics as contained in your statement, would your answers be the same, in
18 substance?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, would those
21 answers as contained in this statement be truthful?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, at this time, I would move to admit
24 1D01625 as the next available Defence exhibit.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no objection.
Page 23026
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D01625 receives number D535.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
6 At this time, Your Honours, I would like to read a public summary
7 of the statement, the purposes of which have been explained to the
8 witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed as you suggest.
10 MR. IVETIC: Vladimir Radojcic was a colonel in the VRS, and he
11 was commander of the 1st Infantry Ilidza Brigade of the Sarajevo Romanija
12 Corps from January 1993 through the end of the war. He was a
13 professional army officer, but his brigade had a serious manpower
14 problem, and only one other officer, the artillery commander, had been a
15 professional army officer prior to the war. This lack of professional
16 officers was similar in other brigades.
17 Colonel Radojcic was aware of the formation of the Green Berets
18 on the Muslim side as an armed formation before the war. These units
19 were armed with new equipment and weapons.
20 Colonel Radojcic often complained to the UN that the ABiH was
21 using civilian facilities for military activities. Before opening fire
22 on a civilian area used by the ABiH, the VRS would warn the UN to warn
23 the other side. The territory of his brigade was fired upon from the
24 Dobrinja hospital, among other civilian areas being used by the ABiH.
25 The strategy of the SRK was to protect civilian villages and
Page 23027
1 prevent a breakthrough of the ABiH 1st Corps situated in Sarajevo. The
2 Ilidza Brigade undertook primarily defensive operations toward that
3 strategy. The only offensive operations were to improve tactical
4 positions. His brigade opened fire at the first line of the front and
5 targeted the depth of Sarajevo only when they had reliable information
6 that combat elements of the ABiH were located there.
7 The VRS Main Staff and Sarajevo Romanija Corps provided manuals
8 and ordered that they be distributed to subordinates, detailing the laws
9 of war and calling for adherence to the same. His superiors in the corps
10 and the Main Staff never ordered the brigade to attack civilians or
11 civilian transportation lines in Sarajevo.
12 The VRS Main Staff gave explicit orders to eliminate
13 paramilitaries from the area, and the brigade undertook to try and
14 implement those orders.
15 The issue of ammunition became a problem, such that the superior
16 commands issued orders to save ammunition and only fire upon the enemy
17 when absolutely necessary. This ammunition problem led to the use of
18 so-called modified aerial bombs, which were only used after they were
19 tested and their precision ascertained. The witness knows the ABiH also
20 used modified aerial bombs, including naval bombs.
21 The witness testified about humanitarian aid being allowed to
22 pass, even though it was known that the ABiH in Sarajevo misappropriated
23 the same and sold it on the black market. He is aware of instances where
24 UN and UNPROFOR vehicles were smuggling weapons and munitions to the ABiH
25 in Sarajevo.
Page 23028
1 As to Scheduled Incident G10, Colonel Radojcic states that this
2 was fired at a legitimate military target.
3 As to Scheduled Incident G6, Colonel Radojcic states that his
4 forces did not have mortars at the institute for the blind, and he issued
5 no orders to fire upon Klare Cetkin Street.
6 As to Incidents G13 and G15, Colonel Radojcic never instructed or
7 ordered those locations to be attacked, nor received reports of them
8 being struck by his forces.
9 And that, Your Honours, completes the summary of the witness's
10 statement.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, at this time, I would move to admit the
13 associated exhibits that are contained in the statement which have not
14 been already introduced into evidence. By my tally, there are 61 such
15 exhibits that do not already have exhibit numbers. And I could either
16 give a list now or perhaps sit with Mr. Groome at the break and show him
17 my list to save -- to be more efficient. I'm at Your Honours' guidance.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I take it that Mr. Groome has the list. And
19 what I would like to know is whether there are any objections against any
20 of those documents so that we could perhaps deal with the non-objected
21 ones, and then we'll further hear from you.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I was going to suggest that we do this
23 at the end of the witness's testimony. I have a number of questions
24 about some of them, and I believe there is some confusion which I will
25 bring out during my cross-examination a bit. Depending on the answers, I
Page 23029
1 will be either objecting or not objecting to the admission of some of
2 these.
3 MR. IVETIC: That's fine.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we leave the associated exhibits for a
5 while and revisit the issue at the end of the testimony of the witness.
6 Any questions for the witness, Mr. --
7 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- Ivetic?
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
11 Q. Colonel, I would like to ask you some follow-up questions.
12 First, I would like to take a look at what you say in paragraph 7
13 of your statement, which has now been identified as Exhibit D535.
14 MR. IVETIC: And that would be page 3 in both language versions.
15 Q. Here you say that the strategy of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was
16 to utilise a "decisive defence."
17 What precisely do you mean by the terminology "decisive defence"?
18 A. Blocking defence, "odsudna odbrana," in military terminology
19 means the defence of certain zones, areas, even if a maximum sacrifice is
20 to be made in order to defend that territory.
21 Q. Now, sir, when you say "even if a maximum sacrifice is to be
22 made," what does that relate to?
23 A. First of all, I mean one's own losses in this case. When there
24 is this kind of defence, there is no going back. This is the situation
25 that the Ilidza Brigade was in because our families were behind our
Page 23030
1 backs. That is why this defence is called that.
2 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, in this paragraph you state that your
3 objective was to block the BH Army 1st Corps in the city. Was it also
4 part of your objective to blockade civilians in the city of Sarajevo
5 itself?
6 A. No. In all the orders that I received from the superior
7 commands, from the Main Staffs, it was always stated explicitly that our
8 aim is to blockade the 1st Corps of the BH Army because it was so
9 numerous that they could seriously threaten stability in other areas.
10 As for the total blockade of Sarajevo, there was no mention of
11 any such thing. On the contrary, we were always co-operative, and we
12 always allowed civilians to leave. All our politicians, all our military
13 leaders in negotiations always included that possibility as well; that is
14 to say, allowing civilians to leave Sarajevo freely and come back to
15 Sarajevo freely.
16 However, the other side, in this case the 1st Corps of the BH
17 Army, did not allow that. Or they set certain conditions that we did not
18 find acceptable. That is to say, throughout the war, this was a pending
19 issue, and we were always co-operative. And our co-operation with
20 UNPROFOR units, and they were the mainstays of these negotiations, it was
21 always there.
22 Q. How would you describe your own position, the position of your
23 brigade vis-à-vis the ABiH forces that you were in contact with?
24 A. The 1st Ilidza Infantry Brigade had combat contact with three
25 brigades on the other side: The 102nd Brigade -- first, it was called
Page 23031
1 the 2nd Brigade, but in the second stage of the war, it was renamed the
2 102nd Brigade, and it was in the inner ring of defence of the Brigade;
3 then the 155th Brigade that was in the area of Dobrinja; and the
4 104th Brigade from Butmir near the runway of Sarajevo airport towards
5 Hrasnica. It got to Igman and the source of the Bosna River. And that
6 was where the area of responsibility of my brigade ended. And there were
7 three, therefore, brigades on the other side.
8 When I was looking at the balance of power between the two, it
9 was 3:1 in their favour. Even 5:1 in their favour. So it was
10 exceptionally difficult, an exceptionally difficult position, especially
11 if you take into account the actual terrain that also worked in favour of
12 our opposing side.
13 Q. Thank you. I'd like to now ask you about paragraph 5 of your
14 statement, which is found in page 4 in the English and page 5 in the
15 Serbian.
16 Here you describe certain brochures explaining the provisions of
17 international war and humanitarian laws distributed to subordinates. Can
18 you describe to us, or tell us in more detail, about what kind of
19 material was contained in these brochures?
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said, Mr. Ivetic, paragraph 5. I think
21 you --
22 MR. IVETIC: 15, I apologise.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
24 MR. IVETIC: It should be page 5 in the Serbian, that's perhaps
25 where I misspoke.
Page 23032
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can give the following answer in
2 response to your question.
3 In these brochures, international law of war was explained and
4 also what the units that are in conflict are supposed to do in order to
5 observe that. Specific cases were referred to in terms of what
6 violations of the law of war are. Literally, every soldier of the
7 Ilidza Brigade and of the other forces of the 1st Corps was fully made
8 aware, in detail, of these provisions of international law of war.
9 If we take into account that in every order we got from
10 General Mladic and from General Galic and General Milosevic, this was
11 always underlined: The need to observe international law of war.
12 Q. Turning to the brochures just for a moment, could you describe
13 the level of sophistication of the language used in the brochures?
14 A. Well we, the officers, did our best to explain this to soldiers
15 at our meetings. I told commanders of units within the brigade about
16 this and then they would convey that to each and every soldier. We were
17 even getting to be boring, if I can put it that way, with all of that.
18 People were even saying enough with this international law of war. Why
19 do you tell the other side about this, too, so that they start observing
20 it a bit as well.
21 Q. You mentioned meetings. Could you tell us about the frequency of
22 those meetings.
23 A. Well, most often I had briefings with my subordinate commanders
24 once a week concerning problems in the brigade and they in their units.
25 At the end of these meetings, we would adopt specific conclusions and
Page 23033
1 tasks related to resolving these problems.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I believe we're at the time for the
4 break.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We are. Could you give us an indication as to how
6 much time you would still need?
7 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours. I anticipate finishing in
8 approximately 25 to 30 minutes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: But I think your initial claim was 30 minutes, so --
10 MR. IVETIC: It was.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- we are after half an hour now. Well,
12 including -- well, not entirely half an hour, but including the
13 attestations, et cetera, which is always understood to be --
14 MR. IVETIC: I have about 23 or 24 minutes -- 24 questions left,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll see how much time that takes.
17 We ask the usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.
18 We'd like to see you back after the break.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.
21 And then you would be encouraged, Mr. Ivetic, to see whether you
22 could finish by 2.00, let's say, that's almost the entire amount of time
23 you asked for in total.
24 So we take a break.
25 --- Recess taken at 1.14 p.m.
Page 23034
1 --- On resuming at 1.35 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
3 Mr. Mladic is supposed not to speak aloud, not now, not at any
4 time.
5 Apart from that, I would like to previously address the parties
6 on the following matter. Late September, two days in early October of
7 this year, in total five days, we'll have to manoeuvre in such a way that
8 the use of the courtrooms is in line with the staffing facilities, at
9 least during the hearing of certain appeals. We always made an effort to
10 secure that we would sit in the morning and would continue to sit in the
11 morning because that was the expressed wish of the Defence. It may be
12 that during those five days, in order to guarantee that we sit in the
13 morning, we would have to start at 9.00. That's half an hour earlier
14 than we usually do. It would be limited to those days only.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: If there is strong opposition to that, and the
17 Chamber is inclined, rather, to stick to the morning sessions rather than
18 to start at 9.30 or 9.00, the Chamber would like to hear without delay.
19 Mr. Ivetic, please continue your examination.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, sir.
21 Q. Colonel, now I would like to ask you about the procedure your
22 brigade would follow when targeting enemy sites with mortar or artillery.
23 First, could you tell me how targets on the enemy side were
24 selected and identified?
25 A. [No interpretation].
Page 23035
1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I'm not getting a translation.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Just a minute. There seems to be a -- there seems
3 to be a problem with the audio.
4 Mr. Mladic, does it function now again or not yet? Yes, I see
5 thumbs-up, which means we can proceed. Just a second.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the --
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. Could you start from the beginning so we could get the complete
9 answer.
10 A. In the brigade's operative room, there was a map which was used
11 by the chief of artillery. All the targets where depicted on the map,
12 those that were of some interest for the brigade, as well as the targets
13 they'd receive from the corps command. They bore numbers, and they
14 represented the targets on which we opened fire when needed.
15 The corps command was in charge of some targets, and if they were
16 in our area of responsibility -- responsibility --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- we did not open artillery fire
19 on those targets because there was no need to do that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I invite you to slow down so that nothing of
21 what you say will be lost.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
24 Q. Did you finish your question -- answer, sir?
25 A. I wanted to add that those targets, which were marked on our map
Page 23036
1 but were the responsibility of the corps artillery, were fired upon by
2 the corps artillery, whereas the brigade artillery, the company
3 artillery, and the battalion artilleries opened fire as needed.
4 Q. Okay. Did your brigade heavy weapons have optical visibility
5 with the targets on the other side?
6 A. When we selected firing positions for the brigade firing group, I
7 was guided by the following motive: Artillery had to be placed in such
8 positions and deployed in such a way that they had optical visibility
9 with the targets of my artillery. Since we also had laser gauges of a
10 distance, the activity of our artillery tools was very precise.
11 Q. Could you explain what you mean by "laser gauges of distance."
12 A. I'm talking about a device using laser beams in order to measure
13 the exact distance to the target. With that device, errors are really
14 minimum, and they are measured in centimetres.
15 Q. Thank you. I'd like to look at paragraph 33 of your statement.
16 MR. IVETIC: Found on page 7 in the English and page 10 in the
17 Serbian.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I ask one clarifying question in
19 relation to the previous answer.
20 MR. IVETIC: Of course, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You said: "... errors are really minimum, and they
22 are measured in centimetres."
23 You mean errors in measuring the distance or any other error?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean distances, exclusively
25 distances.
Page 23037
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, then I understood you well.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
4 Q. Sir, in this paragraph, paragraph 33, you say that you would
5 alert the other side when firing at military targets of the ABiH in
6 civilian zones through the UN. Could you describe how this was
7 accomplished.
8 A. In my brigade's zone of responsibility, there were military
9 observers, and there were also UNPROFOR members. Throughout the war, the
10 French Foreign Legion members were deployed there, as well as members of
11 the Ukraine Battalion. There was a liaison officer in each of our
12 brigades. With their help, we would very quickly get in contact with
13 them, and whenever there was a violation of a truce or some other
14 violation, we would inform them.
15 When we did that, they would come to the scene to see what had
16 happened, and then they would use their communications means in order to
17 alert their colleagues on the other side who would then make sure that
18 the offending activity was stopped.
19 Q. Was it always the case that the offending activity was stopped?
20 A. No, not always. Sometimes their fire continued, and then upon
21 receiving approval from the superior command we would respond to that
22 fire and neutralise their activity in that way.
23 Q. When firing upon enemy targets, did your brigade heavy weapons
24 utilise direct or indirect mode of fire?
25 A. In my previous answer, I said that when we selected the positions
Page 23038
1 of deployment of our artillery group, we made sure that they are deployed
2 in such a place where they could open direct fire on the enemy. This is
3 how we ensured better precision, much better than if we were to open
4 indirect mode of fire through our officers on the observation posts.
5 Q. Thank you. Next I would like to move to so-called modified
6 aerial bombs.
7 First, can you tell us your knowledge of what these bombs were?
8 A. First of all, I could say that the name itself, a modified aerial
9 bomb, is not adequate. It is not adequate because we never made any
10 modifications on the air bomb.
11 Fuel contact bombs that we used were the kind of bombs that were
12 once used by the JNA airforce. The only thing that we changed was the
13 mode of use; i.e., the mode of launching such bombs. Based on my
14 experience, I can tell you that it was made much more precise in that way
15 than if it was used from the air.
16 Q. Can you tell us what steps your brigade undertook to minimise the
17 deviations in the aerial bombs when launched?
18 A. I can say that my brigade, once it received launchers and the
19 appropriate components to manufacturer such bombs, not aerial bombs but
20 just the modifications, as you call them, the first thing we did was to
21 choose an adequate position. The positions that we chose also allowed us
22 to have optical visibility with the target.
23 The second thing that we bore in mind was for such bombs to be
24 launched in favorable weather conditions, when it was not foggy, when it
25 was not very windy, in order to increase the precision of those bombs.
Page 23039
1 You have to know that such bombs were launched over our own heads. Any -
2 even marginal - errors could have cost us dearly.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just have a clarification question.
4 Sir, you said at page 79, line 14:
5 "Based on my experience, I can tell you that it was made much
6 more precise in that way than if it was used from the air."
7 Can you explain to us how it operates when it's from the air and
8 how it operates from the way you used it and show us why it is more
9 precise?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I can explain.
11 When a pilot launches an aerial bomb, the precision of those
12 classical bombs without any guidance system is contingent upon the
13 capability of such a pilot to do a timely launch. In practice, it
14 happened that it took several attempts to hit the target that was
15 selected.
16 On the other hand, we had launchers and we had optical visibility
17 with the target. We could measure the distance very precisely, and
18 that's how we achieved a higher level of precision. I am speaking from
19 experience. I launched three aerial bombs myself; i.e., my brigade did.
20 So what I'm telling you is based on that experience.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
22 MR. IVETIC:
23 Q. Sir, were there firing tables for the aerial bomb launcher?
24 A. Of course. We received launchers and firing tables which were
25 temporary firing tables for aerial bombs. On those firing tables, you
Page 23040
1 could see the angles and the distances, so the crew could put in precise
2 distances into their device. Everything else would have been
3 improvisation. Those temporary firing tables were glued to the launcher
4 very visible to the eye of the crew, and we did not have any problem with
5 that.
6 Q. Did you ascertain if the launchers for the modified aerial bombs
7 had been tested?
8 A. Of course. Not a single piece of armament or weaponry that is
9 introduced into a military is introduced without previously being tested
10 by the manufacturer. In this specific case, as far as I know, that
11 testing was done at Kalinovik, which is an old artillery shooting range
12 intended for such testings. And the firing tables we received were based
13 and crafted based upon those testings.
14 Q. In relation to the three modified aerial bombs that you said your
15 brigade launched, could you give us some more details about the targets
16 they were launched at and your appraisals of their accuracy.
17 A. When we were equipped with the aerial bomb launcher, before we
18 launched our first bomb on the enemy, I wanted to test its efficiency and
19 precision. That's why I issued an order that the first target for us
20 would be the cooler plant near Stup.
21 Let me explain. This is a concrete -- reinforced concrete
22 facility. It was 70 by 70 metres large, and its height was about 70
23 metres as well. Throughout the entire war, that facility was a place
24 from which sniper fire was opened at us by the enemy. In order to
25 complete the first launch, I moved our soldiers from the first line to
Page 23041
1 the left and to the right, and we had a direct hit of the cooler plant.
2 We didn't want the first bomb to overfly the cooler plant. That's why I
3 asked the crew of the launcher to decrease the elevation so that we made
4 sure that it wouldn't overfly.
5 When we launched that aerial bomb, because the elevation was
6 short, it was not adequate, the bomb actually did not hit the target
7 itself. It fell short, some hundred metres in front of the target. It
8 fell at -- on its side and it slid like a bobsleigh. That was our first
9 launch. It was not successful, but it didn't make me unhappy because I
10 could see how it acted.
11 The second bomb was launched on the 28th July, 1995 on the
12 television building of Sarajevo. Throughout the war, it was the
13 television of the 1st Corps of the BiH Army. The darkest kind of
14 propaganda was launched from there against my people. When I received --
15 when I received approval from my superior command, I personally assisted
16 the launch of that aerial bomb. I was at the observation post, and I saw
17 that the aerial bomb hit the building of the radio television, and that
18 made me very happy.
19 The third aerial bomb was launched on the Aleksa Santic school in
20 Hrasnica. It was school only by name. However, throughout the war it
21 housed the centre for the training of special units of the 1st Corps of
22 the BiH Army.
23 How did I know that? On Muslim television, their president,
24 Alija Izetbegovic, was shown visiting the 104th Brigade of the BiH Army,
25 and he also visited that school, and he commended them for successfully
Page 23042
1 completed education. Having heard that, when I received my orders from
2 the superior command, I launched the third aerial bomb, and that was the
3 only target that we missed but by only 20 metres.
4 Let me explain. When an aerial bomb hits the ground, since it is
5 a contact fuse shell; i.e., it is not intended for targeting troops or
6 targets in the open space. It is intended for hitting facilities. The
7 crater that it made was 5 metres deep and its diameter was 15 metres,
8 which only goes to show that most of the kinetic energy of that aerial
9 bomb was used for its dispersion.
10 So this is the long and short of the story of the aerial bombs
11 that we launched during the war.
12 Q. Just one more question on the aerial bombs before moving on.
13 The first one bomb -- the first bomb launched at the cooler
14 plant, did it explode when it skid like a bobsled?
15 A. No, it did not explode. It remained there. Even I -- after the
16 Dayton Accords were signed.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Are you done with this subject, Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I am.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have a question on that subject.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a clarification to avoid any
23 misunderstanding.
24 I see on the transcript that you said; that is, page 82, lines 11
25 and 12:
Page 23043
1 "Throughout the war, the television building was the television
2 of the 1st Corps of the BH Army."
3 Was that really what you wanted to say?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is what I meant to say.
5 90 per cent of their programme was pure propaganda. We were portrayed as
6 the biggest criminals. I believe that then and I still believe --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. This was not my question. I wanted
8 to know if the 1st Corps of the BH Army had its own television.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, their television was Television
10 Sarajevo; i.e., the television of Bosnia Herzegovina.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was the reason why I put this question to
12 you, because you are recorded as having said: "Throughout the war, this
13 building was the television of the 1st Corps of the BH Army."
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to highlight what they did
15 because they used that television as their own. That was what I meant to
16 say.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that clarification.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I also have one or more questions for you.
19 You said there were firing tables for the air bombs but they were
20 temporary. Could you explain what makes a firing table a temporary one?
21 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
22 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't receive translation at this moment, but...
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since there was a temporary table
24 of firing, there must have been a permanent one too.
25 JUDGE ORIE: My question is -- well, that's not necessary. If
Page 23044
1 you have a temporary one, there can just be a temporary one.
2 There -- you do not receive -- yes.
3 Now how -- from whom did you get a temporary timetable --
4 timetable. Firing table? Who did -- who gave it to you?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We received it from the corps
6 command, and they, in turn, had received it from the manufacturer.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Manufacturer of what?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The manufacturer of launchers and
9 the manufacturer of the engines mounted on the air bombs. They also
10 carried out the testing of those bombs.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any test reports then? Because we have
12 received some evidence about how the engines were mounted on the air
13 bombs, and we have not received that much evidence on the production of
14 launchers.
15 But could you tell us a bit more in detail what these test
16 reports, what they contained?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rocket launchers were manufactured
18 by us based on the sketches we received from our superior command. The
19 basis -- or the base was actually a truck with a back that could be
20 lifted up and down. We used it to mount launchers on top of it. A bomb
21 would be fitted onto a launcher, and with much electronics, an air bomb
22 would be launched provided a proper angle was chosen in order to reach a
23 certain distance.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand what you need to come to some
25 precision. But what I asked you is whether there were testing reports.
Page 23045
1 Because at least there are three parties involved; that is, the producer
2 of the launcher, the producer of the engines, then I take it the
3 production of the modified air bomb in such a way that the engines were
4 attached to the bomb itself. And then, as a fourth element, how the
5 launchers were mounted on -- on trucks. That requires a rather complex
6 system where testing is not that easily done.
7 Could you tell us were there testing reports? Test reports, I
8 should say.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The engines used to launch air
10 bombs had been tested.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And they had undergone many years
13 of testing.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I interrupt you quite direct. What I meant to ask
15 you is whether this system, not the specific elements, but whether the
16 system was tested, because I noticed that there are various components
17 which, when putting them together, would perhaps give a totally different
18 result. If you attach an engine 1 centimetre further to the left or to
19 the right, that might have had a huge impact on the precision of the
20 system as such.
21 So, therefore, I'm wondering - and I'm asking you - whether there
22 were any test reports on the system as functioning composed of these
23 elements?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not carry out testing. We
25 received bombs already fitted with the engines and that had been done in
Page 23046
1 the Pretis factory in Vogosca.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking you how you received them. I'm
3 asking whether there were test reports about the system as such.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly. But they were not
5 available to me. I was a brigade commander. I didn't need such data. I
6 needed firing tables.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You say they were there but they were not available
8 to you. How do you know that they did exist?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because there would have been no
10 firing tables without testing. No weapon is introduced in to -- or put
11 into use without previous testing. Everything else would be fooling
12 around.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It's logic rather than factual knowledge you are
14 giving us.
15 Now back to the temporary -- the temporary tables, firing tables.
16 You say if there are firing tables, there must be test reports.
17 What made them temporary? I mean, why after proper testing and
18 the standardised production procedure? You would just produce the firing
19 tables, I would say, rather than temporary firing tables.
20 Could you explain that?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I certainly can.
22 The entire arsenal of our units - and I mean the artillery and
23 mortars - we had standing firing tables, which were published as manuals,
24 and I had occasion to see one such manual here; thus, they are available
25 to you.
Page 23047
1 For this kind of assets which, to an extent, was improvised,
2 there were no standing firing tables, only provisional ones. It was not
3 something that was part of the JNA arsenal. That asset was produced for
4 one particular use, and our experts relied on air bombs, and with certain
5 additions, they managed to create a very successful asset that we used to
6 defend ourselves.
7 That is why those firing tables were provisional.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So what I hear you say is that you have no detailed
9 knowledge about the testing, the procedure; you have no detailed
10 knowledge about the production because it was all fitted already, and how
11 it was fitted, at least, you haven't told us; and that you received
12 firing tables which were more or less improvised.
13 Now this ends up in saying that the position was deviation not
14 more than 10 metres or 10 metres on 1 kilometre trajectory. Where do you
15 get that from?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I have to say that we
17 didn't improvise. What I said was that the provisional firing tables
18 were put together after a process of testing. So it wasn't all
19 improvisation. That's number one.
20 Number two, I also stated that it was the experience of our
21 brigade that we were very precise and that there was no deviation larger
22 than 10 metres per 1 kilometre.
23 I don't know about the experience of other units, though.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You told us about three launches. One failure, but
25 there at least you -- you know how it worked. And then the two others.
Page 23048
1 Is your assessment of the accuracy, is that based on those two other
2 launches?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So it's on the basis of these. And you didn't
5 include the third one which failed to hit the target.
6 Did you include something like what the Chamber heard evidence
7 about, a launch of such a modified air bomb to be a total failure even
8 killing people from your own armed forces?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't aware of any such
10 information during the war. I can only discuss my experience.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even the first --
13 JUDGE ORIE: If you -- no.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- bomb --
15 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't know, the answer is you can't tell us.
16 May I remind you that when I -- let me see -- yes. You said that
17 when I put to you the question about matters being improvised, you said,
18 well, you didn't say that. May I read to you what is recorded as what
19 you would have said:
20 "For these kind of assets which, to an extent, was improvised,
21 there were no standard firing tables."
22 So when I used the word "improvised," I just repeated your own
23 words. Unless there is any mistake in translation. I leave it to that
24 at this moment.
25 Mr. Ivetic.
Page 23049
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. I --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Judge Moloto also has a question.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again, let me just make sure that I understood you
4 clearly. When you described the precision -- are we together, sir?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. When you describe the precision of your
7 modified aerial bombs, you said that you used laser and therefore they
8 are very precise, margin of error 1 centimetre short because the
9 1 centimetre, well, you clarified that it was measuring a deviation in
10 distance. And when you talked about targeting the three other targets
11 that you launched, you said one of your bombs fell short by 20 metres.
12 Did I understand you correctly?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the first target we
14 targeted was missed. Due to low elevation, the bomb undershot and went
15 unexploded. The second target was the TV building; that was hit. The
16 third target was the school building, and the bomb overshot, falling into
17 a meadow 20 metres further away, creating a crater 5 metres deep and 15
18 metres wide. That's what I said.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I obviously misunderstood you. I thought
20 you said it fell short. So it overshot by 20 metres.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: So instead of measuring -- getting a deviation of
23 1 centimetre, as you had indicated, it had a deviation of 20 metres.
24 Do I understand that correctly?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You didn't understand me correctly.
Page 23050
1 I said that the precision of the laser distance measurement is
2 measured in centimetres and that is one initial element of firing in
3 order to obtain the precise distance of the target. If the laser
4 measurement indicates that it is, say, 250 metres away, the potential
5 margin of error is a few centimetres. But it doesn't mean that the air
6 bomb would behave the same as the laser measurement device because its
7 trajectory is governed by different principles.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought when you were explaining -- when you
9 explain that deviation of a centimetres, you were explaining how precise
10 the modified air bomb is better than the one that is carried by a plane.
11 You told us that the one that is carried by the plane, it depends on the
12 capability of the pilot to see exactly where that target is. But this
13 one was guided by -- it was modified such that it hits the target as you
14 measured it with a laser.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could I try to see whether we can come to a proper
16 understanding of your words, because they created apparently some
17 confusion.
18 Would it be true that the measurement of distances with your
19 laser gauge was separate from any firing system but was just used to
20 measure a distance, whereas the variation there would -- or the deviation
21 would be very limited. Whereas when firing projectiles, that you were
22 facing far more and other circumstances which would allow for deviations
23 which are -- were far in excess of the deviations you would have if you
24 would only measure a distance. Is that...
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I wanted to
Page 23051
1 say. A laser range finder determines the distance, but it is only an
2 initial element of firing.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You'll be with us for more time, so we'll have ample
4 opportunity to further explore what exactly you intended to say. You
5 see, ballistics are always the core of the interest of this Chamber
6 because it's an important matter.
7 Mr. Ivetic, when I encouraged you to finish by 2.00 then, of
8 course, it was not included that we had so many questions. How much time
9 would you still need?
10 MR. IVETIC: I have approximately seven questions, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Seven questions, yes. Well, that should be
12 approximately 10 --
13 MR. IVETIC: 10 minutes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- to 15 minutes. Okay.
15 Witness, we'll adjourn for the day. We would like to see you
16 back tomorrow at 9.30 and -- one second, please. One second. Witness.
17 Yes, I'd like to give you further instructions. That is, that you should
18 not speak or communicate with whomever about your testimony, whether that
19 is testimony you have given today or whether that is testimony which you
20 are still about to give tomorrow and perhaps the day or days after that.
21 You may follow the usher.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,
25 Thursday, the 26th of June at 9.30 in the morning, in this same
Page 23052
1 courtroom, I.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of June,
4 2014, at 9.30 a.m.
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