140827ED

Page 24879

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that we will not lose time there.

2 Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Dunjic. Before you give

5 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text

6 is now handed out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn

7 declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 WITNESS: VELIMIR DUNJIC

11 [Witness answered through interpretation]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Dunjic. Please be seated.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dunjic, you'll first be examined by

15 Mr. Stojanovic. You'll find him to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel

16 for Mr. Mladic.

17 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Dunjic.

19 A. Good day.

20 Q. Before we begin, I would like you to speak your exact name and

21 last name into the transcript.

22 A. My name is Velimir Dunjic.

23 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us, did you provide a

24 statement, a written statement, to the Defence of Radovan Karadzic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 24880

1 Q. And did you appear as a witness in that case?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please get

4 document 1D02401 in e-court, please.

5 Q. Mr. Dunjic, could you please look at the document. Could you

6 look at the last page of the document in front of you?

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we also look at the last

8 page of the document on the screen.

9 Q. Mr. Dunjic, I would like to ask you: Is this your signature on

10 this document?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. And is the date the 12th of November 2012 and is it written by

13 your hand?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. While preparing for your testimony as a possible witness for

16 General Mladic, did you ask the General Mladic Defence team to augment

17 your statement in one part of it?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document

20 1D02401A in e-court, please. Could we look at the first page, please.

21 Q. Mr. Dunjic, is the signature that we see on this page your

22 signature?

23 A. Yes, the signature and the initials.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the last

25 page.

Page 24881

1 Q. Is this your signature on the last page of the statement and is

2 the date also written in your hand?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. My next question would be this: After you gave the solemn oath

5 in this courtroom today, do you wholly stand by the written statements

6 that you provided to the Defence of Mr. Karadzic with the addition that

7 you provided to the Defence of General Mladic and is the statement given

8 according to your best recollection?

9 A. Yes, it was given in my best -- according to my best

10 recollection, and I completely stand by the original statement that I

11 provided and the part that I added to it.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

14 tender Velimir Dunjic's statement, and they are 1D02401 and 1D020 --

15 401A, 1D2041A.

16 MR. JEREMY: Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Your Honours. No

17 objection.

18 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a problem with your microphone.

19 MR. JEREMY: Good afternoon, Your Honours. No objection to

20 tendering those statements.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then I take it, Witness, that from your answers, I

22 take it that if the same questions would be put to you that in substance,

23 you would give the same answers?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be -- two numbers?

Page 24882

1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2401 receives number D598. And

2 document 1D2401A receives number D599, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: D598 and D599 are admitted.

4 If you have any further questions, Mr. Stojanovic, please put

5 them to the witness.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. With your

7 leave I would also like to tender the exhibits that we proposed with the

8 numbers, and we are heeding the suggestions that you provided. And if we

9 need to, we will also cite a shorter list. So these would be 27

10 documents with the numbers from 1D02402 to 1D02428. 1D02428.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the suggestion was not, as a matter of fact,

12 to reduce the 29 by two, but to reduce them considerably. Therefore, I

13 would like to leave the matter and give you an opportunity to seek

14 documents to be introduced through the witness in the time remaining and

15 then see at the end how many associated exhibits remain.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. Mr. Dunjic, I would like to put a few questions to you. But

19 before that, I would like to read a resume or a summary of your

20 statement.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With the leave of the Trial

22 Chamber.

23 Witness Velimir Dunjic was a professional military officer,

24 active duty, who in 1991 when the war broke out was the commander of the

25 armoured battalion of the 94th Motorised Brigade in Sarajevo, which was

Page 24883

1 part of the 2nd Corps of the JNA from where he was transferred to

2 Croatia, and from August 1992 until January 1993 -- until January 1993,

3 he took over the duties of commander of the Igman Brigade, which was part

4 of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

5 After being replaced from this duty, he joined the VJ where he

6 was engaged in the Pozarevac garrison until 1994, which was when he left

7 the Army of Yugoslavia upon his personal request.

8 In his statement, he speaks about the situation in the

9 Igman Brigade during the time that he was carrying out the duties of

10 commander. He talked about its deployment, the area of defence, and the

11 fighting that was conducted. He asserts that he did not have any snipers

12 in his brigade nor did the combat disposition of his unit offer any

13 opportunities for sniper activities. Also, army -- units of the B and H

14 army does not have the possibility of using snipers against his unit.

15 However, he is personally aware that B and H army forces did fire

16 from snipers at positions of the VRS and at civilian targets in the

17 sectors of the Nedzarici, Rajlovac, Vogosca, and the roads leading to

18 Pale. Even he, himself, was the target of sniper fire in the Rajlovac

19 sector.

20 He had artillery weapons within his brigade, organised in mixed

21 artillery divisions, and they had 120-millimetre howitzers and 82 and

22 122-millimetre mortars. He also had a multi-barrel Oganj weapon in his

23 brigade. He never used artillery fire against civilian facilities or

24 civilians. These weapons were exclusively used for the purpose of

25 repelling enemy attacks and for neutralising enemy firing points.

Page 24884

1 When he took over the Igman Brigade command, he placed the unit

2 of Branislav Gavrilovic under his command, and he asserts that while this

3 unit was under his command, it did not commit any crimes.

4 Humanitarian convoys and members of the UN passed through his

5 area of defence in the direction of Sarajevo. All these convoys were

6 allowed to go to their destinations, even though he is personally aware

7 of a number of instances when this freedom of movement was abused about

8 which he speaks in his statement with more detail.

9 Q. I would like to put a few more questions to you.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to look at P598 in

11 e-court, paragraph 3. [In English] Paragraph 3.

12 Q. [Interpretation] In paragraph 3, Mr. Dunjic, you say, among other

13 things -- well, we'll just wait for the text to appear in front of you.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic -- Mr. Stojanovic, you called that

15 Exhibit P598. Do you mean D598?

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. D. D598.

17 Q. In paragraph 3, amongst other things, you say speaking about

18 September 1991 that - this is the middle of the paragraph:

19 "I received approval from the corps commander,

20 General Djurdjevac, to call for volunteers who wanted to receive training

21 and be placed in the reserves to bring it up to full complement due to a

22 shortage of Croatian, Slovenian, Muslim, and Albanian soldiers."

23 My question is this: What motivated you to call for volunteers

24 other than the fact that you were short of manpower because soldiers from

25 among the ranks of Croats, Slovenians, Muslims, and Albanians were not

Page 24885

1 there?

2 A. The system of bringing up the strength of the units of the JNA

3 was this: Each of the units had a varied ethnic composition, which would

4 include Slovenians, Croats, Muslims, Albanians, Macedonians, Serbs,

5 Croats, everybody. The political leaderships of Slovenia, Croatia made

6 their decisions, and then Mr. Alija Izetbegovic issued his invitation

7 according to which the soldiers of those ethnic groups did not respond to

8 call-ups, to serving the JNA. There were cases was desertion from our

9 units. The same applied to Albanian soldiers. There were cases of

10 desertions from our units which impaired combat readiness of our units.

11 My military speciality is a tank man, and if a tank does not have

12 four crew members - I'm talking about T-55 - that tank cannot be used in

13 combat, and the combat readiness of such a unit is completely impaired.

14 Talking about some other principles in the JNA, I would say that the

15 basic principle was supreme combat readiness.

16 Q. That appeal and that invitation, was it aimed at volunteers from

17 the ranks of only one ethnic group?

18 A. No, it applied across the board irrespective of ethnicity. To

19 corroborate this assertion, I would like to say that the brigade

20 commander, my immediate superior, was Mr. Enver Hadzihasanovic. He

21 himself inspected the training that I conducted in Vojkovici.

22 Q. Just for the record, could you please explain who Enver

23 Hadzihasanovic is or was?

24 A. At the time he was lieutenant-colonel, and he was the commander

25 of the 49th Motorised Brigade [Realtime transcript read in error 94th

Page 24886

1 Motorised Brigade], and I was the commander of the armoured battalion in

2 that same brigade.

3 Q. And during the war?

4 A. During the war, he joined the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He

5 was the corps commander. And according to what I know, although I did

6 not carry out my own investigations, I believe that he was a suspect

7 before this Tribunal. I don't know whether he was ever convicted or not.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] At page 43, line 18, you

10 were interpreted as talking of the 49th Motorised Brigade. What's

11 printed here it's 94th Motorised Brigade. Which one is correct?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 4-9, 49th.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. And now let's look at paragraph 4 in your statement. In this

16 paragraph or rather in your statement you say -- let's just wait for a

17 moment until it's brought up in the English version. Here you say,

18 amongst other things, that your brigade during the period when you were

19 in command was in a double-encirclement. Could you please explain to the

20 Trial Chamber what you meant when you used the term a

21 "double-encirclement"?

22 A. The brigade -- or, rather, its positions were east of Igman, at

23 the foot of Igman. On Mount Igman there were troops of the BiH Army. In

24 the direction of Padric [phoen] and Vrcin there was the

25 Hadzici Battalion. And then the deployment of companies from Zrnovica to

Page 24887

1 Drozovina [phoen]. Vis-à-vis us there were forces of the BiH Army in the

2 dominant position, that was Ormanj elevation.

3 West of those units there were battalions from Ratkovica, whose

4 positions were in Veli Zenik [phoen] and in the direction of the

5 Ilijas Brigade. Vis-à-vis from us, in one part of that theatre, as I've

6 already told you, there were HVO units. And between us and the

7 Ilijas Brigade, there were units of the BiH Army deployed from the

8 direction of Breza.

9 The Osijek Battalion was deployed in Osijek, later on in Azici

10 and Doglodi. And across that battalion there were forces from Sarajevo,

11 which means that we completely encircled and our tactical position was

12 worse than that of the forces of the BH -- of BHA [as interpreted]. The

13 only exit we had towards the corps command or rather the general

14 territory held by the units of the VRS was across Rajlovac, Vogosca, and

15 further on across the Pretis factory in the direction of Semizovac and

16 Pale.

17 This was a very bad situation and not very logical which is

18 corroborated by the fact that as the crow flies from the command of my

19 brigade to the corps command, there were only about 2.500 to 3.000

20 kilometres, whereas at the same time, we had to take a route which was

21 100 kilometres long.

22 Q. Sir, you already stated that in your statement. I would kindly

23 ask you to tell us what is not already in your statement. I'm going to

24 ask you whether such a position, the position of your unit with regard to

25 the dominant elevations around Sarajevo, if you know, of course, also

Page 24888

1 existed in the other brigades of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

2 A. The Sarajevo Romanija Corps had anything between 18.000 and

3 25.000 troops. 4.000 members of the corps were killed during the war.

4 This is an imprecise percentage. Seven to eight thousand were wounded.

5 The corps consisted of 13 brigades. Of the 13 brigades, eight were in

6 immediate fire contact with the forces of the 1st Corps of the B&H army

7 around the city of Sarajevo. Of those eight brigades, six were in a very

8 unfavourable tactical position. To me personally as a career officer, I

9 found it surprising to read some writings about us shelling Sarajevo from

10 the tops of the hill and being dominant.

11 The Rajlovac Brigade was at -- at the foot of Igman on the one

12 side and the foot of Sokolje. My brigade was at the foot of Igman and at

13 the foot of Ormanj. The Ilidza brigade was below Igman. The 1st and the

14 2nd Sarajevo Brigades were at the foot of Igman and at Mojmilo. Those

15 were dominant positions. You can check the deployment of the BiH Army.

16 Q. And I'll stop you here and ask for just one more sentence. Could

17 you please look at paragraph 11 in your statement.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just before you do so, I would like to ask for a

19 clarification.

20 Mr. Dunjic, on line 7, 8, of page 45, you are recorded as having

21 said:

22 "From the command of my brigade to the corps command, there were

23 only about 2.500 to 3.000 kilometres."

24 I take it you were referring to "metres" instead of "kilometres."

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Metres, metres, 3 kilometres or

Page 24889

1 3.000 metres.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that clarification.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I

4 would like to point to another error in the transcript. Page 46, line 2.

5 I believe it is 2. Where it says -- or, rather, the witness's words were

6 misrecorded. He said that a unit was below Mojmilo, not on Mojmilo.

7 That unit was below Mojmilo. That's what the witness said. The witness

8 said that the unit was below Igman and below Mojmilo.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if you want to verify that, you

10 should do that with the witness and not to correct the transcription

11 because it's not your task to do that.

12 Did you say at the foot or below Mojmilo?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Below Mojmilo.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. And now you can look at paragraph 11 in your statement. You talk

18 about Muslim artillery activity and you provided the example of

19 Kobilja Glava. I'm just going to ask you whether there were other such

20 examples directed at the centre of Hadzici, which was in the area of

21 responsibility of your brigade?

22 A. Yes. Those attacks against the units of my brigade were almost a

23 daily occurrence. You can see that from the reports that I sent to my

24 corps command while I was in command of the brigade.

25 Q. When it comes to artillery activity, did it also involve medical

Page 24890

1 facilities in the area of responsibility of the Army of Republika Srpska?

2 A. Yes. On two occasions as far as I can remember, the Zica

3 hospital in Blazuj was shelled. Around the hospital, there were no

4 positions of my brigade or anything that may have provoked anybody into

5 shelling the hospital.

6 Q. And finally, were there any attacks during Serbian religious

7 holidays? Was artillery fire opened on the position of your units?

8 A. Yes, it was an established practice that was first used during

9 the Second World War when the Muslim forces made the most of the

10 opportunity, because they thought that the soldiers of my brigade would

11 be at ease. And they used religious holidays in order to launch attacks

12 on the positions of my brigade. It happened on various holidays

13 including the Orthodox Christmas and new year.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dunjic.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

16 trying to avoid wasting time, in keeping with the answers provided by the

17 witness, I would like to reduce the proposed list to six documents that

18 the witness provided -- testified about, those documents.

19 And I would also like to tender the following documents into

20 evidence: 1D02403, 1D02404. They both speak about the shelling of

21 Hadzici. Furthermore, 1D02408 and 1D02415, which speak of the shelling

22 of the hospital in Blazuj. Furthermore, 1D02426, which speaks about the

23 Muslim artillery attack on the eve of Orthodox Christmas. And all of

24 these documents corroborate the witness's testimony in the courtroom.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 24891

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I count five where you announced

2 six.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not sure whether I mentioned

4 this. I didn't say 1D02414. Your Honours, I'm looking at the record. I

5 would like to tender this document because it corroborates the instances

6 of shelling of civilian targets: 1D02414.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's -- then we'll deal with them

8 separately. We'll deal with them separately.

9 1D02403 -- yes.

10 MR. JEREMY: Your Honour, just to put on the record no objection

11 to those associated exhibits.

12 JUDGE ORIE: To none of them. Okay.

13 Madam Registrar, the number for 1D02403 would be.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Number D600 Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.

16 1D02404.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Number D601, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted. 1D02408.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Number D602, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted. 1D02415.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Number D603, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: 1D02 -- admitted. 1D02426.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Number D604, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. 1D02414.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Number D605, Your Honours.

Page 24892

1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

2 Mr. Stojanovic.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. And I

4 would also like to thank the witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dunjic, you'll now be cross-examined by

6 Mr. Jeremy. You'll find Mr. Jeremy to your right. Mr. Jeremy is counsel

7 for the Prosecution.

8 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dunjic.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. I'd like to start the cross-examination by clarifying the exact

13 dates that you were the commander of the Igman Brigade. In your

14 statement, D598, that was your original statement, at paragraph 4 you

15 indicated you were the commander of the brigade from August 1992 to

16 January 1993. Could you please clarify the exact date that you were

17 first appointed?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, you're not quoting the statement

19 exactly. It says from August to September 1992, but I take it that you

20 want to seek clarification but then on the proper basis of quotation.

21 MR. JEREMY: Thank you for that correction, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 Witness, when exactly were you appointed commander of the

24 Igman Brigade?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the exact date.

Page 24893

1 It was in late August 1992. At the end of August 1992. And I remained

2 in that position until mid-January 1993. During that period, I served as

3 the brigade commander.

4 MR. JEREMY:

5 Q. And you were dismissed as commander of the Igman Brigade in

6 mid-January 1993; that's correct, isn't it?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. And it's also correct that the -- the dismissal was involuntary?

9 A. It was not voluntary, no.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dunjic, moving on. The Pretis factory in Vogosca

11 supplied your brigade with supplies of ammunition; is that correct?

12 A. Not just my brigade but all the other units of the VRS. My

13 brigade was just one of them.

14 Q. That's understood. I'd like to show you a particular request for

15 ammunition that you made to -- to the Pretis factory in September 1992,

16 so within the first month or so that you were commander of the Igman

17 Brigade.

18 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, could we please see 65 ter 31124.

19 Q. Mr. Dunjic, on the screen before you is a request for ammunition

20 from you in your capacity as Igman Brigade commander to the Pretis

21 factory. You see it's dated 23 September 1992, and it's signed by you.

22 We'll need to go to the second page in the English to see your signature.

23 A. I didn't sign this.

24 Q. So the signature that we see in the B/C/S version, that's not

25 your signature; is that correct?

Page 24894

1 A. No, this is not my signature. No.

2 Q. Could you explain why someone would send a document with your

3 name and with a signature next to it --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, the English translation is "for

5 commander." Is that --

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And in B/C/S it's clearly "za kommandant."

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please keep that in mind when you continue

8 your examination.

9 MR. JEREMY:

10 Q. Mr. Dunjic, if a document is signed on your behalf, could you

11 explain whether you would review that document before it is signed by

12 somebody on your behalf?

13 A. Let me tell you: As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing in

14 dispute approximate about this document. This was signed by the

15 assistant commander for logistics. One of his duties is to send requests

16 for ammunition and other supplies. His name was Milas Taka.

17 Q. And before you would sign a document on your behalf, you would

18 review that document; correct?

19 A. If I was there. If I was present. Let me try and explain. It

20 happened that I was somewhere else on the positions of a battalion.

21 Ammunition may have been needed urgently, and then the assistant

22 commander for logistics would be in charge of that. It was a normal

23 procedure practiced in the JNA and the VRS and in all the armies

24 worldwide.

25 Q. So would I understand the situation correctly, then, that if the

Page 24895

1 assistant commander for logistics signed the document for -- on your

2 behalf, then he was acting on your authority; is that correct?

3 A. Yes at times, no at other times. There were instances when I

4 didn't even know what he did. It was wartime. There is nothing in

5 dispute. I myself would also sign this document.

6 Q. Thank you. Taking a look at the ammunition requested in the

7 document and focusing specifically on the size of the shells that are

8 being ordered, can you confirm that you would not authorise the use of

9 shells of this calibre without the authority of your superior officer?

10 A. I absolutely didn't understand your question.

11 Q. Okay. I'll try again. The document refers to shells of a number

12 of different calibre, so we have 120-millimetres, 100-millimetre,

13 105-millimetre, and 122-millimetre.

14 A. Well, you know from my statement that we had a mixed artillery

15 battalion that used that ammunition, the ammunition of that calibre. You

16 can see it in my statement.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please wait for the question,

18 because I thought that Mr. Jeremy was trying to ask you something

19 different.

20 Mr. Jeremy.

21 MR. JEREMY:

22 Q. My question, Mr. Dunjic, is: Would shells of this calibre be

23 authorised for use by yourself without authorisation from your commander

24 who, in this case, I understood was General Galic?

25 A. I could do that. Every brigade commander had the right to use

Page 24896

1 this calibre in case of attack of the BiH Army, and in order to defend

2 the positions of the troops and the civilian population which had come

3 under attack. We are talking war here, not a chess game, you know.

4 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Where you say "I could do

5 that," you mean that you could use those shells of that calibre without

6 authorisation from your commanding officer. Is that your evidence?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Now, in the last paragraph of this document, we -- we read that

9 the supplies are required to "take part in defending the wider territory

10 in the brigade's zone of responsibility and to eliminate all groups,

11 human targets, bordering our territory."

12 Now, you would agree that this statement makes no distinction

13 between military and civilians persons bordering your territory; correct?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated].

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated].

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the border areas of positions of

18 units from my brigade were units of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

19 so if something was related to the destruction of live grouped targets,

20 that referred to enemy infantry. It referred to soldiers.

21 MR. JEREMY:

22 Q. So do I take from your answer that you -- you did not believe

23 there to be any civilians on -- bordering your area of responsibility; is

24 that correct?

25 A. These positions, especially those facing Igman, Ormanj, there

Page 24897

1 were no inhabited places there with civilians.

2 Q. So when you -- when you fired into those areas, you did so on the

3 basis that there were no civilians inhabiting those areas; is that

4 correct?

5 A. We fired at the enemy, at enemy units, and at their firing

6 positions.

7 Q. And it's your evidence that there were no civilian areas or

8 civilians anywhere close to those enemy units and their firing positions;

9 is that correct?

10 A. Perhaps there were some somewhere, because if the enemy forces

11 fire at us from a civilian facility, it is no longer a civilian facility

12 but a legitimate military target. So we fired at legitimate military

13 targets regardless of where they were located.

14 Q. Okay.

15 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I would like to tender that document

16 as the next Prosecution exhibit.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31124 receives number P6701, Your

19 Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: P6701 is admitted.

21 MR. JEREMY:

22 Q. Mr. Dunjic, in paragraph 14 and 15 of your statement D598, you

23 discuss the topic of humanitarian aid.

24 MR. JEREMY: That's in -- could we call that document up, please,

25 D598. And if we could please go to page 6 in the English and 3 in the

Page 24898

1 B/C/S.

2 Q. Sir, in paragraph 14, you note that the zone of responsibility of

3 the Igman Brigade was specific with UN members and various humanitarian

4 convoys passing through it. You go on to say bringing aid to Sarajevo.

5 In the same paragraph, you go on to discuss certain problems

6 associated with this humanitarian aid, and you finish the paragraph

7 stating: "Nevertheless, all convoys were let through."

8 In paragraph 15, you discuss a convoy that you let through on the

9 29th of September 1992. And my question to you is: Do you recall

10 another convoy on this date that you did not want to let through, did not

11 want to enter into Sarajevo?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay. I'd like to show you a document in connection with that.

14 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 31119.

15 Q. Mr. Dunjic, on the screen before you is a report from the RS MUP

16 in Ilidza. We see it's dated 29 September 1992, and we see at the bottom

17 of the B/C/S that it is signed.

18 In the first paragraph we read that an UNPROFOR convoy was

19 stopped and that the UNHCR staff in the convoy were carrying

20 approximately a hundred letters addressed to persons of Muslim

21 nationality, and we read that those letters contained various

22 denominations of money. Does this refresh your recollection at all of

23 this particular convoy?

24 A. This is the same convoy that I referred to where you had

25 Afro-Asian people in the convoy. It's the same event. If you're trying

Page 24899

1 to say that it was two convoys, no, it was one and the same convoy. And

2 I did refer to that in my statement.

3 Q. Okay. In the second paragraph we read that:

4 "The problem was that four of the convoy drivers were of Muslim

5 nationality, and the commander of the Igman Brigade, Major Velimir

6 Dunjic, refused to let them pass. He made an ultimatum to UNPROFOR

7 officers and UNHCR officials as follows:

8 "1. That by tomorrow they provide him with a guarantee that the

9 convoy will not include any Muslim drivers."

10 I'll skip number two.

11 Number 3:

12 "That they do not carry any letters or food to Muslims in

13 Sarajevo."

14 Number 4:

15 "Major Dunjic shall confiscate the whole convoy or all trucks if

16 any of the three items above are not met."

17 The Major Dunjic being referred to in this document by the RS MUP

18 is you; correct?

19 A. Yes, that's me.

20 Q. So it's also correct that when you say in your statement that all

21 convoys were let through, actually on the basis of this document, it

22 should say that all convoys were let through provided your conditions

23 were met, and one of those conditions was that the convoys did not

24 contain food for Muslims. That's correct, isn't it?

25 A. That is not correct. This was an Official Note, a description by

Page 24900

1 members of the police in Ilidza. I acknowledge that. However, I'm sorry

2 that you don't have my order that I sent to members of the UNPROFOR. I

3 remember it in its entirety stating that any compromising material and

4 men were forbidden in the convoys, that convoys had to be announced, the

5 place, the time, when they would go through the area of responsibility of

6 the unit. In an order, which you ought to have, I ordered subordinate

7 units to be correct - i.e., professional - towards members of UNPROFOR.

8 And this convoy that you're talking about was allowed to pass. It did go

9 and reach its end destination.

10 Q. And when you talk about your order that any compromising

11 materials should be forbidden in the convoys, then, on the basis of this

12 report, compromising material included food destined for Muslims in

13 Sarajevo; correct?

14 A. Absolutely not. This is not my report. This is a report by some

15 MUP member.

16 As for compromising material, that implied weapons and

17 ammunition, something that we did find in a convoy on two occasions.

18 Even gunpowder contained in oxygen bottles. Were we supposed to allow

19 that to go through the area of responsibility of our brigade? Supplies

20 for enemy troops, that is considered compromising material, not food.

21 Q. So just to clarify, and I know we're nearly at break time, it's

22 your position that the information contained in this report by the RS MUP

23 is inaccurate; is that correct?

24 A. To a good part incorrect. First of all, there was no ban on

25 members of -- on Muslims passing through. And I think sometime in

Page 24901

1 December we let over 1.000 Muslims pass through the area of

2 responsibility of our brigade, families from Sarajevo that wanted to

3 leave Sarajevo. So it does not stand at all that I prohibited them from

4 passing through, but I did not wish to allow a commander from the

5 opposing side to pass through the area of responsibility of my brigade.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And what exactly do you mean by "compromising men

7 who were forbidden in the convoys"?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would mean commanding

9 officers, officers and soldiers of the B&H Army, because UNPROFOR units

10 permitted abuses. In my statement, I said that on the 29th of September

11 1992, which is something that the Prosecutor is referring to, that there

12 were 100 men of Afro-Asian -- from the Afro-Asian group of a certain age,

13 which was established by their passports, that they came to Sarajevo in

14 the month of June to study. They were allowed to pass through. That was

15 that convoy. These are compromising men.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my military experience ...

18 MR. JEREMY:

19 Q. Mr. Dunjic, you've referred to this --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

21 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour is correct.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock.

23 Mr. Dunjic, we adjourn for the day, and we would like to see you

24 back tomorrow -- oh, no. I'm sorry. I'm totally mistaken. We have to

25 take a break now. We'll resume at -- in 20 minutes from now. So would

Page 24902

1 you please follow the usher and enjoy a break. We resume at 25 minutes

2 to 2.00.

3 [The witness stands down]

4 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 1.17 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.44 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

8 into the courtroom.

9 Mr. Lukic, with the Witness Ratko Adzic, you tendered one

10 associated exhibit. There was another one announced, 65 ter 1D05147

11 which we didn't hear about any further. Now, if it was intentionally,

12 then we leave it to that. If it was a mistake --

13 MR. LUKIC: It was my omission.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It was your omission.

15 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then I take it you would then interpreted 1D05147.

17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: As an associated exhibit.

19 [The witness takes the stand]

20 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know -- are there any objections?

21 MS. BIBLES: No.

22 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

23 Madam Registrar, the number for 1D05147 would be?

24 THE REGISTRAR: Number would be D606, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: D606 is admitted into evidence.

Page 24903

1 Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.

2 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Q. Mr. Dunjic, I would just like to ask you a few further questions

4 in relation to the document we were looking at just before the break.

5 Now, do I understand that you believe the report on this particular

6 convoy is, in fact, the same convoy that you discuss in paragraph 15 of

7 your statement?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Now, the convoy you referred to in paragraph 15 of your statement

10 mentions a hundred men leaving Sarajevo; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, you would agree that the document on the screen before us

13 makes no mention of a hundred men?

14 A. I don't know. I agree but I don't know why it's not mentioned.

15 Q. Okay. I see a reference to a hundred letters but not a hundred

16 men. Is it -- are you confident that -- that this is referring to the

17 same convoy you discuss in paragraph 15 of your statement?

18 A. As far as I can remember, there were not two convoys that day.

19 That was just the one. As far as I can remember, the police stopped that

20 convoy. They did the inspection. There were letters. A girl, who was

21 an interpreter, was carrying letters. There was even some money. But

22 all of that was allowed to pass, and there was some also men of

23 Afro-Asian descent who, in my opinion were instructors, and later they

24 fought against us as part of the Mujahedin units.

25 Q. Just one final detail on this document, it's clear that in

Page 24904

1 paragraph 15, when you refer to these 100 men in the convoy, they are

2 leaving Sarajevo; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If we take a look at the document on the screen before us --

5 MR. JEREMY: And if we can go to page 2, please.

6 Q. -- we read:

7 "After a talk with chief of SSJB Ilidza, we let the convoy

8 through to Sarajevo, although the command of the Serbian army has

9 promised not to let anymore convoys through Serbian territories unless

10 the mentioned conditions are met."

11 So, Mr. Dunjic, you would agree on the face of the document that

12 this is a convoy passing through your territory into Sarajevo not out of

13 Sarajevo?

14 A. No, I don't have that information and I don't remember that. All

15 I remember is the convoy that went from Sarajevo towards Pazarici and

16 farther.

17 Q. And the fact that this document suggests that this convoy is

18 entering into Sarajevo, that doesn't help you remember whether it was a

19 second convoy or make you think that, in fact, this document is referring

20 to a different convoy to the convoy you described in paragraph 15;

21 correct?

22 A. No. I cannot recall there being a second convoy. As far as I

23 can remember, I think it was just this convoy which I referred to in my

24 statement. It would be a very rare thing to have two convoys in one day.

25 And if I may just assist you, in the warning that was issued to

Page 24905

1 to UNPROFOR that they had to announce the time and the place of the

2 passage of convoys, this was something that was imposed also for their

3 safety so that I, as the brigade commander, would not have to be

4 responsible if something happened to them. Later I substantiated that

5 with my written order to my subordinate units about the manner in which

6 UNPROFOR members were to be treated. I hope that you have that document.

7 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I would like to tender this document,

8 65 ter 31119, as the next Prosecution exhibit.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31119 receives number P6702, Your

11 Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

13 MR. JEREMY:

14 Q. Mr. Dunjic, I'd now like to discuss Branislav Gavrilovic, who you

15 mention in paragraph 13 of your statement, D598.

16 MR. JEREMY: If we could take a look at that, please.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, before we do so.

18 Are you familiar with the name of a certain Jovo Divjak or Jovan

19 Divjak.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I am familiar with the

21 name.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Have you any knowledge about where he was on the

23 29th of September 1992?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where he was. I know

25 that he was a Serb who betrayed the Serbian people and crossed over to

Page 24906

1 the Muslim units side.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Was he within Sarajevo?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he was in Sarajevo. He was

4 one of the main commanders in the armed fight against the Serbian people.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Would you agree with me that if you address a letter

6 to Mr. Divjak, who is in a commanding position in Sarajevo, that you

7 would transport that in a convoy that is directed into Sarajevo and not

8 out of Sarajevo?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand your question

10 sufficiently. But absolutely, I would not permit Mr. Divjak to be in the

11 convoy. He would be arrested --

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers].

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- had he been in the area of my

14 brigade.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's not the question. The question is that

16 if in the convoy there was a letter for Mr. Divjak, and if Mr. Divjak was

17 exercising a commanding function within Sarajevo, that it doesn't make

18 much sense to transport that outside Sarajevo. But if it's addressed to

19 him, rather, to bring it into Sarajevo. Would you agree with that?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would, in part. But it would

21 make sense if the letter was addressed to Mr. Jovan Divjak from Sarajevo

22 because he spent most of his time in Igman and he was in command of the

23 units. He went to Pazaric. Even though the convoy was going to Pazaric,

24 there was a connection with the units at Igman.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

Page 24907

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. JEREMY:

3 Q. Mr. Dunjic, I'd now like to discuss Branislav Gavrilovic with

4 you, a person you mention in paragraph 13 of your statement which is on

5 the screen before us. You state that:

6 "Among the units in my zone, when I came was also the unit of

7 Branislav Gavrilovic. After a while, it also put itself under the

8 brigade command and it did not commit any crimes in contradiction of the

9 provisions of the Geneva Conventions while I was in command."

10 Now focusing firstly on Branislav Gavrilovic himself, his

11 nickname was Brne; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And he was a member of the Bosnian Serb army from April 1992 to

14 September 1993; is that correct?

15 A. Did you maybe make a mistake in the dates?

16 Q. No, I didn't.

17 A. I was there until 1993, until mid-January, and I think he still

18 remained in the Army of Republika Srpska. But I don't know. That's why

19 I asked if you had perhaps made a mistake. I know that when I was the

20 commander, he was in the unit. As for later, I don't know and I'm not

21 really interested much in that.

22 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 14500.

23 Q. And, Mr. Dunjic, while this is being called up,

24 Colonel Spasoje Cojic was -- he succeeded you as the commander of the

25 Igman Brigade; is that correct?

Page 24908

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. Now, on the screen before you is a certificate issued by

3 Colonel Cojic. It's dated the 18th of December 1993. And in the

4 certificate, we see that Colonel Cojic certifies that Branislav

5 Gavrilovic was a member of the VRS from April 1992 to 10 September 1993.

6 My question is were you -- were you aware that he remained in the VRS

7 until that date? Does this help refresh your recollection, perhaps?

8 A. No, this does not assist me at all. Branislav Gavrilovic was a

9 member of my unit while I was its commander. This is what I'm asserting

10 and you can see it in the document. What happened next, who were brigade

11 members, was not my concern at all.

12 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document as

13 the next Prosecution exhibit.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 14500 receives number P6703, Your

16 Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

18 MR. JEREMY:

19 Q. Mr. Dunjic, when you assumed command of the Igman Brigade in

20 August 1992, Gavrilovic had around 80 men in his unit. That's correct,

21 isn't it?

22 A. Yes, more or less. According to some reports, it was 25 to 30.

23 In that unit, there was 70 men. That would be the most precise

24 information. They accounted for 2.5 per cent of the total complement of

25 my unit. In my brigade, I had 3.000 men in all.

Page 24909

1 Q. In connection with the number of men in his units, I'd like to

2 show you another exhibit.

3 MR. JEREMY: And could we please see 65 ter 31122.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Dunjic, on the screen before you is a record of payments

5 in September 1992 to a volunteers detachment, you see at the top of the

6 page. We see on the first page the document is actually dated 5 November

7 1992.

8 MR. JEREMY: And if we could go to the last page, please.

9 Q. And we see your name is typed there. I accept that there is no

10 handwritten signature by you. Do you recognise this document?

11 A. No, I don't. But I don't see anything in dispute. However, I

12 don't recognise it. I've not seen it before.

13 Q. And when you say you don't see anything in dispute, you were

14 familiar with payment records of this nature originating from you as

15 Igman Brigade commander to these volunteer units?

16 A. Your assertion unfortunately is not correct. Pursuant to the

17 first decision of the supreme court of Republika Srpska, which was

18 decision number 1/92, the volunteer units had the same rights and

19 obligations and as such they were incorporated into the units of the Army

20 of Republika Srpska. And I repeat: Under the same rules and obligations

21 and with the same rights. And every soldier of Republika Srpska had a

22 monthly remuneration, as it were, because they did not have any other

23 sources of income to support their families due to the war. So all the

24 units and all the soldiers were paid the same. There were no differences

25 in terms of the amount of the remuneration or anything else.

Page 24910

1 Q. Mr. Dunjic from your --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Jeremy, can I just ask a question.

3 Are we looking at the same document in both languages?

4 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honours. And I understand that the way

5 that it has been translated in the English is essentially the first page

6 has been -- the text on the first page has been translated and the text

7 on the last page has been translated and the headings have been

8 translated, but there isn't a translation for each of the 64 names listed

9 in that document.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

11 MR. JEREMY:

12 Q. Mr. Dunjic, from your answer I don't think we are disagreeing. I

13 simply wanted you to confirm that the Igman brigade was paying the

14 volunteer unit referred to in this document in September 1992.

15 A. I would word this in a different way. Thank you for this

16 document. It confirms that there were 64 members before but you said

17 that there were 80. Then I corrected your figure and said that there

18 were 70 and now I see that there were even fewer than that. That's one.

19 Secondly, your formulation that the brigade paid volunteers is

20 not correct. They were members of the Army of Republika Srpska. Their

21 name or title was the volunteer detachment. Its members were Serbs,

22 members of the Serbian people, who hailed from that territory. They were

23 natives of Pofalici, Alipasina. For example Branislav Gavrilovic, he was

24 a native of Alipasino Polje. I don't want you to think that those units

25 had arrived from somewhere else and then when they did, we decided to

Page 24911

1 give them money, to pay them. This is simply not correct.

2 Q. Let's take a closer look at the document.

3 MR. JEREMY: Could we go to page 2, please.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Page 2 in the original or page 2 in the English?

5 MR. JEREMY: In both, please.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you just explained that the -- I think but let

7 me have a look. Yes, page 2 only gives number 1 of number 64, whereas

8 page 2 in the original gives us the 24 names.

9 MR. JEREMY: And I think the translators didn't describe name --

10 didn't translate or describe names 2 to 63 but rather --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. JEREMY: -- only the 64th name for the --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

14 MR. JEREMY:

15 Q. Mr. Dunjic, on the screen before you we see in the top left-hand

16 corner "Brigade 2-Igman Brigade" and "Company 01-Savo Derikonja."

17 Now, Savo Derikonja was the name of the unit commanded by

18 Gavrilovic; is that correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And it's correct and you've confirmed that in September 1992 the

21 unit contained at least 64 men?

22 A. I said about 70, as a matter of fact. And that was from what I

23 remembered.

24 Q. And since this unit was part of your brigade and you were brigade

25 commander, they were your responsibility; correct?

Page 24912

1 A. Yes. In my statement I said that when I became the brigade

2 commander, I found all the units there. Amongst them there was also the

3 unit that you have just mentioned.

4 Q. And as units in your brigade, it follows they would follow your

5 orders; correct?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I would like to tender that document

8 as the next Prosecution exhibit.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31122 receives number P6704, Your

11 Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

13 MR. JEREMY:

14 Q. Mr. Dunjic, I'd now like to discuss events in your zone of

15 responsibility in November 1992. Now, in preparation for that, are

16 you -- you are familiar with a person called Ratko Radic; correct?

17 A. Yes, the late Ratko Radic that is.

18 Q. Could you tell the Chamber who that person was, please?

19 A. Ratko Radic was the president of Hadzici municipality.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, do you recall that on the 12th of November 1992

21 a -- a tour of your brigade was carried out by your command?

22 A. What command do you have in mind?

23 Q. Let's take a look at a document in connection with this and

24 perhaps my question will become clearer.

25 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see Exhibit P356. And that's the

Page 24913

1 handwritten notebook of Mr. Mladic. That's P00356. And if we could go

2 to page 164 in both the English and the B/C/S, please. All right.

3 Sorry, could we go to page -- in e-court, could we go to the typed

4 version of the diary entry rather than the original. So the typed -- the

5 transcription of the B/C/S. There is a scan of the original notebook and

6 there is a type transcription in B/C/S. And that should be page 1 -- 164

7 in the B/C/S, please. So one page back, I think. We've got 165.

8 Please.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, what I see I see under number 4, 164, touring

10 the front, and I see the name of Mr. Dunjic. So if that's what you are

11 looking for, then --

12 MR. JEREMY: If we could just go one page back first and then

13 we'll come to this, please.

14 Q. So, Mr. Dunjic, on the screen before you we have --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we see the English this page, please.

16 MR. JEREMY:

17 Q. Mr. Dunjic, on the screen before you we have an entry in

18 Mr. Mladic's notebook, and it's dated the 12th of November, 1992 --

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's the wrong page in English. 1 --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we --

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we are right.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- are there.

23 MR. JEREMY: Thank you.

24 Q. And we see the subheading "Morning Reports By Commanders." The

25 time is 7.45 to 8.00 a.m.

Page 24914

1 MR. JEREMY: Can we go to the next page in both documents,

2 please. Just one page forward.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we are --

4 JUDGE ORIE: We're in the wrong page in English now. One page

5 back and the next page in B/C/S, please. There we are.

6 MR. JEREMY: There we are.

7 Q. So, Mr. Dunjic, directing your attention to number 4, SRK, we

8 read:

9 "The front is quite. Yesterday I toured the Igman Brigade.

10 Dunjic is staying. A small part of Mount Igman is under control. We

11 could have done more."

12 Now, this is a report by the commander of the Igman Brigade. It

13 doesn't specifically state it in the notebook, but I assume this was a

14 tour of your brigade by General Galic. Do you remember that particular

15 tour on that date?

16 A. I don't remember that particular day because Mr. Galic, as a

17 general and a corps commander, toured the brigade on several occasions.

18 But I can easily agree with you that he was there on that day as well. I

19 don't have a reason not to agree with you or not to believe you.

20 Q. And throughout the period that you were commander of the

21 Igman Brigade, General Galic was your commander ; correct? He was

22 commander of the SRK; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, I'm looking at the clock and now with a

25 clear intent to adjourn for the day, rather than to take a break. If

Page 24915

1 this would be a suitable moment.

2 MR. JEREMY: It is a suitable moment, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Dunjic, we adjourn for the day. Now we

4 really do. I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak or

5 communicate in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, whether

6 that is about your testimony you've given today or whether that is about

7 testimony still to be given tommorow.

8 We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same

9 courtroom II. You may follow the usher.

10 [Witness stood down]

11 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow, the

12 28th of August, 9.30 in the morning in the same courtroom II.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 28^th day of

15 August, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.