Page 25769
1 Thursday, 18 September 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 10.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, this is case number
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 I'd like to deal with a few preliminary matters. For the first
11 one, we have to go into private session.
12 [Private session]
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23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I hereby publicly
Page 25771
1 announce that the Chamber has just delivered in private session its
2 decision granting the Defence motion for protective measures for
3 Witness GRM246.
4 A few other matters.
5 The first, a request for extension of time. On the
6 8th of September, 2014, the Defence requested an extension of time to
7 file its notices pursuant to Rule 94 bis for six proposed expert
8 witnesses who the Prosecution seeks to call as part of its anticipated
9 reopening of its case. The Defence requested a deadline to be set to
10 60 days after the Chamber has decided on the Prosecution's reopening
11 motion. The Prosecution did not object to this. The Chamber considers
12 that it would not be efficient to require the Defence to state its
13 position before a decision on the reopening motion is made. The
14 extension request is therefore granted.
15 The next item deals with Witness Drinic. On the 15th of
16 September, 2014, the Defence filed a Rule 92 ter motion for Witness
17 Predrag Drinic. This witness is not on the Defence's Rule 65 ter witness
18 list and, in fact, a request to add him to the list was denied by the
19 Chamber on the 12th of August, 2014.
20 Under these circumstances, the Chamber denies the Rule 92 ter
21 motion for Witness Drinic. The Chamber advises the Defence to reread the
22 Chamber's decision of the 12th of August of this year.
23 I now move to the 92 ter motion in relation to Desimir Sarenac
24 and especially the exhibits associated with it. The Defence has tendered
25 25 associated exhibits for Witness Desimir Sarenac. The Chamber reminds
Page 25772
1 the parties that it will not accept to be flooded with associated
2 exhibits. The Chamber expects the Defence to not consider it standard
3 practice to tender a large number of associated exhibits with each
4 witness. This includes the length as well as the number of tendered
5 exhibits.
6 The Chamber recalls that it prefers that documents are tendered
7 during the witness's examination in court which allows the witness to
8 explain and comment on them.
9 We will deal with the matter when the witness is called and when
10 the Defence has made up its mind as to how to deal with the associated
11 exhibits.
12 Then we have to turn into closed session for the witness to enter
13 the courtroom in view of the face distortion.
14 We move into closed session.
15 [Closed session]
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Page 25775
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3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 Witness GRM246, because that's how we will call you, I'd like to
7 remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've
8 given yesterday when you appeared in court.
9 You will first be examined by Mr. Ivetic. You will find
10 Mr. Ivetic to your left, and as I told you yesterday, Mr. Ivetic is a
11 member of the Mladic Defence team.
12 You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 WITNESS: GRM246
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
17 Q. Good morning, sir.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. If I could first ask that you take a look at 1D03119 which should
20 not be broadcast.
21 Sir, this is a pseudonym sheet, and could you please tell us if
22 your name and birth date are accurately reflected in this document?
23 A. Accurate.
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we could admit this under seal.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
Page 25776
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D3119 receives number D644,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D644 is admitted under seal.
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. Now I'd like to call up but also not
5 broadcast the document 1D04216. And if we can turn to the last page in
6 the Serbian original.
7 Q. Sir, the signature that is reflected herein, do you recognise
8 whose signature it is?
9 A. Yes, it's my signature.
10 Q. And after signing the same on the date indicated, did you have
11 occasion to review it in Serbian to correct any errors during your
12 proofing session with me the other day?
13 A. Yes. Yes, we did that and we corrected some errors.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
15 be asked to speak louder. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're invited to raise your voice, to
17 speak a bit louder so that the interpreters can hear you. Perhaps you
18 could come a bit closer to the microphone as well.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we reviewed that and we
20 corrected the errors that we noticed.
21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we could move briefly into private
22 session.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
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8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 MR. IVETIC:
12 Q. Sir, apart from these corrections that we have just gone through,
13 do you stand behind the material written in this statement as being
14 factually accurate?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And if I were to ask you today questions on the same topics as
17 contained in this statement, would your answers to those questions be in
18 substance the same?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And since today you are under the solemn declaration to tell the
21 truth, does that mean that those answers as contained in this written
22 statement are truthful in nature?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document under
25 seal as the next Defence exhibit.
Page 25803
1 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would ask that it just remain MFI'd
2 pending the resolution of associated exhibits since there are a lot of
3 them and the statement's based on them.
4 MR. IVETIC: I was going to deal with associated exhibits at the
5 end.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, fine, but meanwhile we MFI the document.
7 MR. IVETIC: That's fine, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number under which it would be
9 MFI'd?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4216 receives number D646,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D646 is marked for identification under seal.
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if I could just know what exhibits are
14 being tendered for the purposes of cross-examination at some point in
15 time in -- before the end of the witness altogether, just so I can plan
16 my examination accordingly.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, is the Defence in a position to provide
18 a short list of documents that will be --
19 MR. IVETIC: I believe we provided a list. I believe there are
20 45 exhibits.
21 JUDGE ORIE: But I think there was also a request to reduce the
22 number. Is there any reduced list?
23 MR. IVETIC: There is no reduced list, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll proceed.
25 MR. IVETIC: Sir -- I would like to again call up the document we
Page 25804
1 just dealt with, D646, MFI'd under seal. It should not be public -- it
2 should not be broadcast.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. In the first page, in the first point, you discuss six documents.
6 MR. IVETIC: And I want to call up the last one from that list,
7 but again we should not broadcast it. And in our case, its 65 ter number
8 is 1D04225.
9 I'd like to first look at the -- first look at the last page of
10 the document in both versions.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session for a second.
12 [Private session]
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Page 25805
1 (redacted)
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
4 MR. WEBER: Just before we return to open session --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes -- we are in open session.
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
7 MR. WEBER: I would just note the placement of the screens and
8 the gallery, maybe with some of the names in the documents just to be
9 conscientious about it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that this has been verified.
11 Could the usher just check whether all the screens are either
12 switched off or in such positions that they cannot be observed from the
13 public gallery.
14 Please proceed meanwhile, Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Sir, this document purports to be issued in your name but signed
17 by another person. Can you confirm for us if this person was authorised
18 to sign on your behalf?
19 A. Yes. In my absence, most often it would be the deputy or one of
20 the assistants who would sign this. In this case it was the deputy and
21 he was authorised to sign the document.
22 Q. And do you stand behind the contents of such a document signed by
23 the deputy?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now if we can stay on this page in the Serbian and in the
Page 25806
1 English, the last paragraph is what I'd like to ask you about. Here it
2 is said that:
3 "Muslims have snipers in the National Museum," albeit in the
4 English it is mistranslated as "sharpshooter," and "that these persons
5 fire upon not only Grbavica but also the area around the railway station
6 to seek to attribute their effects to the Serb army."
7 First of all, who controlled the area around the railway station?
8 Was it the Army of BiH or the VRS?
9 A. Well, the area of the railway station was covered by the BiH army
10 and it was in the centre of their territory. So their control was in
11 that area.
12 Q. And, sir, who were the Muslim snipers shooting at with the aim to
13 attribute it to the Serb army?
14 A. Well, in this case, they could only fire at the Muslim population
15 or, rather, the citizens who were in that area, regardless of whether
16 they were Muslims, Croats or Serbs. The intention was to create panic.
17 And this would happen most often when something important would be
18 happening in Sarajevo, a session attended by the international community
19 or some other important events when the TV crews were there and then they
20 would use this propaganda to a maximum: Here they go again, the
21 Chetniks, they're firing, in order to create as much commotion as
22 possible and to create the worst possible picture of the Serb side.
23 Q. Now, in this document, you even name one of the female snipers
24 here. How reliable did you consider this information to be?
25 A. Well, all the information in this document have been marked to
Page 25807
1 the extent of their reliability. In this case, the information says that
2 it was 99 per cent accurate. That was corroborated from various sources,
3 whether by live persons or otherwise. Anyway, this was credible and
4 verified information.
5 MR. IVETIC: And if we could return to the first page of the
6 document and again still not broadcast the same.
7 Q. It would appear that this document lists several other official
8 notes all dated from April 1993. Does that comport with your
9 recollection that multiple reports were prepared on the same topics as
10 contained in this document?
11 A. Well, yes, the general practice was that after multiple
12 communications containing information, whether it be official notes or
13 other forms of communication, an overall information would be compiled
14 pertaining to a certain date or a certain event.
15 Here, this describes the current military situation in the area
16 of Sarajevo, in the parts under Muslim control. That is what the
17 information says, that it's based on the information intelligence from
18 the National Security Service obtained with regard to the
19 Muslim-controlled areas of Sarajevo.
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, the Defence would tender this document
21 under seal.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4225 receives number D647,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D647 is admitted under seal.
Page 25808
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
2 Q. I'd like to ask you, sir -- I'd like to ask you, sir, about
3 something.
4 MR. IVETIC: If we could have D645 under seal but not broadcast.
5 And if we could go to page 3 in the English and I believe it should be 3
6 in the B/C/S as well.
7 Q. Here you talk about the incident at Markale being staged and you
8 give us --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which paragraph?
10 MR. IVETIC: Paragraph 9, I apologise. Paragraph 9.
11 Q. You talk about the Markale incident being staged and you identify
12 two sources. Since we're in open session, I do not want to identify the
13 sources, but I want to ask you, first of all, if you recall which of the
14 Markale incidents this is in reference to?
15 A. This is in reference to the Markale when a shell allegedly fell
16 and killed over 70 citizens and wounded more than 80, if we are not wrong
17 about the figures provided.
18 Q. Do you recall the year of the incident in question?
19 A. I think it was 1993. I'm not quite sure. I cannot remember
20 exactly. If we go back now to the date when the statement was written
21 down, we might establish other facts accurately as well.
22 Q. Let me ask you this way, do you recall if there was more than one
23 Markale incident of this nature?
24 A. As far as I know, there were more than one incident, but I think
25 in this particular case, it relates to the event that was devastating for
Page 25809
1 a large number of citizens.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I've been reminded that we did not do
4 a summary of the witness's testimony.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but at the same time there's a risk that --
6 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- somewhere the clues for identifying the witness
8 would pop up and that's perhaps under the present circumstances better to
9 avoid.
10 MR. IVETIC: That would be my position as well, Your Honour.
11 Thank you, then.
12 Q. Sir, thank you for your answers to my questions.
13 MR. IVETIC: That concludes the direct examination of this
14 witness.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 Could I ask you one brief question in relation to a matter which
17 was raised by Mr. Ivetic about the Markale incident being staged. A
18 reference is made to refrigerated corpses. Did you, apart from hearing
19 this from someone, did you ever find any other evidence apart from it
20 being told to you?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Look, mainly many interviews were
22 conducted with live persons and also written statements were provided to
23 that effect. However, here, the focus is only one source. There were
24 many people who managed to cross over, and there were pictures and
25 footage on TV immediately after the landing of the shell which shows an
Page 25810
1 expert for counter-terrorist protection which means that that was a
2 person who was quite capable of making a fake explosive device and he's
3 seen entering buildings.
4 So if I could see that footage again, I could tell you who the
5 expert was in this particular area.
6 Secondly, what indicated that it was a staged event was that
7 there were literally no broken stalls. There was no blood. One could
8 only hear crying and wails, one could not see dead bodies.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. First of all, I have some
10 concern - I'm now addressing the parties - that a person entering a
11 building remind me very much of what is commonly known in this courtroom
12 as Markale 2 rather than as Markale 1, but I may be mistaken. So if
13 that's the case, then the witness might mix up at this moment videos he
14 has seen on one and on the other Markale market incident.
15 Witness, you have heard what I said, that when you saw a video of
16 a person entering a building, the Chamber has seen such a video but it
17 was not related to the Markale incident you are describing. Are you
18 aware of that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at this moment, I cannot
20 remember exactly which incident it was. I'm talking about the incident
21 when a large number of citizens were killed or at least that's what was
22 said.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'll continue there, then, about the stalls
24 and a large number of -- I think you mentioned 60 or about 60.
25 I asked you whether you ever found any evidence about
Page 25811
1 refrigerated corpses, apart from it once being told to you. That was my
2 question. I didn't ask you to give your general opinion about what
3 happened on that market.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there was no other evidence and
5 we did not have an expert for that. But this did not come from one
6 source alone. It came from many sources, from people who crossed over,
7 from people who were working for the international community, et cetera.
8 However, there is no other proof other than that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there are more sources for specific details
10 of that, Mr. Ivetic, I take it that the Defence would certainly further
11 explore that item.
12 You will now be cross-examined by Mr. Weber. You find Mr. Weber
13 to your right. Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Weber. I leave it to you whether you want to
15 turn into private session at this moment or not.
16 MR. WEBER: I was just going to greet the witness and then turn
17 into private session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
20 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we turn into private session.
23 [Private session]
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Page 25853
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. So if nothing special
4 happens, one more session.
5 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour, and I'm actually going to try to --
6 a lot of the documents I think I can maybe just show to him, have him
7 confirm information, and then move on quickly, if that's okay with
8 Your Honours, to expedite --
9 JUDGE ORIE: You are presenting the evidence, Mr. Weber. As long
10 as you stay within the Rules, we do not provide you with specific
11 instructions or suggestions.
12 We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow, Friday, the
13 19th of September, 2014, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day of
16 September, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.
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