Page 27210
1 Thursday, 23 October 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
6 courtroom.
7 There were a few preliminary matters. Yes, Madam Registrar,
8 would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
10 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 There are a few matters which I'd like to deal with right away.
13 The first one deals with P6660. I do understand that the excerpt now
14 contains both the selected portion by the Prosecution and the portion
15 selected by the Defence, and that the translation is now complete for
16 that excerpt, which means that nothing opposes admission any further.
17 Madam Registrar, P6660 is admitted into evidence.
18 Then there was another matter about yesterday's -- one of the
19 documents of yesterday. That was the notebook page with attached to it
20 some text and with which -- about which we thoroughly heard the evidence
21 of Mr. Savkic.
22 Mr. Traldi.
23 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President, and good morning.
24 First, for the record, we grant that the document has been
25 admitted in the Karadzic case as an exhibit. In his testimony in that
Page 27211
1 case, Mr. Redzic confirmed that much but not all of the handwriting on
2 the document is his.
3 We specifically dispute the authenticity of the date,
4 13 April 1992, on the document. The transcript references for the points
5 that I raised yesterday, Mr. Savkic's evidence, that he does not know
6 whether anything was added to the document between its discovery and when
7 he saw it, that he does not recall who he heard about it from, and that
8 he does not recall whether he ever saw the original are at transcript
9 pages 27149 and 27150.
10 Separately, we submit that in the context of the entirety of the
11 witness's testimony about it, the document has no probative value. For
12 efficiency, I will leave the matter there and simply note that if the
13 document is eventually admitted, we will seek to agree to a small number
14 of facts related to it with the Defence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now apparently this page is now loosened from
16 its original context. Is that original context known and does it shed
17 any light on dates because often notebooks are written in a
18 chronologically sequential order?
19 Is there anything that would shed additional light on that?
20 And, as a matter of fact, I'm addressing both parties whether
21 anywhere the complete text of that notebook is available.
22 MR. TRALDI: Not that I am aware of, and I take it from my
23 friend's body language that he may not be either. But I would appreciate
24 if he could confirm that.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honours.
Page 27212
1 We also have no information as to the whereabouts of the entire document.
2 MR. TRALDI: And just to perhaps complete the beginning of my
3 submission, Redzic's testimony, the reason I inquired about Bajram
4 yesterday with the witness is Redzic's testimony was, in fact, what the
5 herd had referred to. And I can give the transcript references in the
6 Dr. Karadzic case if it assists the Defence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the Redzic testimony is not before us, is
8 it? It's not in evidence. So, therefore, you're now giving evidence,
9 Mr. Traldi, which you're supposed not to do, by explaining the reasons
10 why you asked certain questions. It's an elegant way of trying to
11 circumvent the rule, but it's still not what we expect counsel to do.
12 At the same time, I can imagine that the date of Bajram at -- in
13 that year is something, I think, parties could easily agree on because
14 that is a fact which is not easily manipulated.
15 I leave it to that.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber defers its decision on admission.
19 Mr. Stojanovic.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that we
21 have another question relating to this document, which is the translation
22 issue, which became important because you think that the translation used
23 was from the previous case. Should you think that we need additional
24 verification of this document, and we can seek that, but we would like to
25 have some guide-lines as to how to address this matter as a whole.
Page 27213
1 JUDGE ORIE: Are you referring to 12 and 16 at the top of the
2 page, Mr. Stojanovic, or did we raise any other concerns about
3 translation?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I think that
5 we have also raised whether the term used was "inductor" or "a doctor,"
6 which, in my view, is quite crucial. And, also, the last word from
7 Finale, which, according to the witness, is the name of a company,
8 whereas, in translation there's a -- a brackets and question mark
9 fisala [phoen] so if it is possible, we may try to verify which word is
10 correct and to decipher what is actually written in the original.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not a translation issue but, rather, a
12 legibility issue.
13 I would invite the parties to see whether they can agree on these
14 items. That is, inductor and Finale or what is declared illegible by
15 CLSS. And then also not a matter really of translation is that the 12
16 becomes 16 or 16 becomes 12, I've forgotten which way it went, seems to
17 be an issue also that the parties would have no dispute about.
18 So for the other two, try to agree on what the text tells us to
19 the extent legible because if there's no original then, of course, a
20 missing letter cannot be repaired.
21 Does that give you sufficient guidance, Mr. Stojanovic?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Yesterday we
23 tried to reach agreement, but my young colleague and I seemed to have
24 agreed yesterday that we could not agree. Therefore, we left this issue
25 open.
Page 27214
1 MR. TRALDI: Mr. Stojanovic flatters me but otherwise correctly
2 sets out the results of our conversation.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, age becomes an item as well, I see.
4 That's bad for the Chamber. So you do not agree on inductor and do you
5 not agree on the -- Mr. Traldi.
6 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, and I thought he was describing -- perhaps I
7 had misunderstood our conversation. We don't agree about admission. We
8 don't agree about the implication of the word "inductor." We hadn't
9 discussed the translation which I'll look at and come back to the Chamber
10 later today.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because I encouraged the parties to seek
12 agreement on what the text in the original reads rather than what that
13 means. That's a totally different matter.
14 Then, having dealt with those, I have a few items on my agenda
15 but I'll leave them for a later moment.
16 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
17 Mr. Traldi, if it's of any comfort to you, or to Mr. Stojanovic,
18 when I was acting as counsel before this Tribunal, I was usually
19 addressed as junior assistant at level P5.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, when we dealt with P6660, I should have
22 first --
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- instructed Madam Registrar that first a new
25 version of 30947, 65 ter, should be uploaded. It's now 65 ter 30947A,
Page 27215
1 which is the document now known as P6660, and ...
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, no, the new version would be 65 ter 30947B. We
4 had already an A version before. And it is this new version, 30947B,
5 which is now admitted as P6660.
6 Madam Registrar saved me through this dangerous cliffs.
7 Good morning, Witness. Before we continue, I'd like to remind
8 you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
9 beginning of your testimony, and Mr. --
10 WITNESS: TRIVKO PLJEVALJCIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And Mr. Jeremy will now continue his
14 cross-examination.
15 Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.
16 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours and good morning.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy: [Continued]
18 Q. And good morning to you, Mr. Pljevaljcic.
19 A. Good morning to you too.
20 Q. I'd like to start today by briefly discussing the command
21 structure of your unit during the period that you were in Foca.
22 So yesterday you told us that you were the commander of a company
23 of 70 or 80 men. Now, your commander, the commander of the
24 5th Battalion, was Boro Ivanovic; is that correct?
25 A. That is correct.
Page 27216
1 Q. And this battalion was part of the Foca Tactical Group, yes?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, in June 1992, Marko Kovac was the commander of the
4 Foca Tactical Group, yes?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. Later in the war, the Foca Tactical Group was renamed the
7 Drina Tactical Group, yes?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Now, Serb troops in Foca, including your company, were
10 incorporated into the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
11 from late June, early July 1992 onwards, yes?
12 A. Correctly. Approximately as of the 28th, which is St. Vitus Day.
13 Q. Now, at this time your battalion, the 5th Battalion, became part
14 of the 2nd Foca Light Infantry Brigade; correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. I'd like to turn now to briefly discuss an operation that your
17 brigade participated in while you were still in the army before your
18 injury in -- in mid-July 1992. Now, in paragraph 6 of your statement, we
19 read that, "We had no ambition to capture territory towards Gorazde."
20 Here are you referring to your company, to your battalion, or to
21 your brigade? Could you specify who you mean by "we," please.
22 A. I was primarily referring to my company. Yesterday I said that
23 whenever the Muslim horse -- forces attacked in order to recapture the
24 lines towards Foca, we retaliated fiercely. And Cerova Ravan was
25 captured on -- on about the 12th of July which is two days before I got
Page 27217
1 wounded. And on that day we lost two fighters. I also believe that an
2 order was issued to launch a ferocious attack against them. That's why
3 we captured Cerova Ravan on the 12th. And then early in the morning of
4 the 13th, they attempted a counter-attack to retrieve --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slow down. Interpreters are unable
6 to follow and we'd like to know what you tell us.
7 Please proceed.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So in the early morning hours of
9 the 13th, they attempted to carry out a counter-attack but they failed.
10 On the 14th, at half past 4.00 in the afternoon, they launched
11 another heavy attack and we did not suffer any losses. And I'm saying
12 that my company occupied Cerova Ravan on 12th of July, 1992, and my
13 company remained there until the Dayton. I did say yesterday that there
14 were some counter-attacks before and after I had left the unit, but the
15 essence is, and the fact is, that we arrived at Cerova Ravan on the 12th,
16 and we remained there until the Dayton, virtually in the same place.
17 MR. JEREMY:
18 Q. Now, Witness, thank you for that answer. I would now like to
19 show you a couple of documents that I think are related to this ferocious
20 attack you refer to. And I'd like you to confirm whether those documents
21 are indeed related to that attack.
22 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P3680 on our screens.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Pljevaljcic, on the screen before you is an order dated
24 the 6th of July, 1992. It's from the Main Staff of the Army
25 of the Serbian Republic of BH. It's sent to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
Page 27218
1 Command for information and to the Command of Serbian forces defending
2 Gorazde.
3 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to page 5 in the English and page
4 3 in the B/C/S.
5 Q. And, sir, we see here that this order is type signed by
6 General Mladic. Do you see that?
7 A. I do.
8 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go back to page 1 in each document.
9 Each translation.
10 Q. Witness, in paragraph 1 of this document, we read in pertinent
11 parts:
12 "Due to the offensive operations and successes of our forces in
13 the general sector of Foca, Sarajevo, Vlasenica, Rogatica, Visegrad,
14 Srebrenica, and Pale, the Muslim Ustashas, withdrawing before the strike
15 of our forces, are grouped in a large mass in the general sector of
16 Gorazde."
17 MR. JEREMY: Now, could we please skip forward to page 3 in
18 English and page 2 in the B/C/S.
19 Q. Witness, on the page before us, I'd like you to focus on
20 paragraph 5: Tasks for the units. And could we --
21 A. I'm sorry. I don't have it. Item 5, you said?
22 Q. Item 5, yes. Tasks for the units.
23 And I'd like to focus on (b). So could we go forward one page in
24 the English.
25 So directing your attention to 5(b), this reads in pertinent
Page 27219
1 parts:
2 "The Foca Tactical Group shall use forces up to the strength of
3 one brigade and reinforced artillery to attack the general
4 Ustikolina-Gorazde access axis ..."
5 Witness, this is the -- this order is -- it's connected to the
6 operation that you have just referred to in your previous answer;
7 correct?
8 A. Yes, there is a connection. And in this period, the territory of
9 Foca municipality had not yet been liberated. I told you yesterday that
10 we had decided to liberate the entire municipal border of the
11 municipality of Foca. Cerova Ravani is precisely on the line between
12 Gorazde and Foca but that was not the case on the 12th. It says here
13 from Ustikolina towards Gorazde. Our line went as far as Ustikolina and
14 took the lines Zebina Suma and Prebila [phoen]. And this is where they
15 stayed until the Dayton Accords were signed.
16 Q. Now, in connection with this order, I'd like to show you another
17 order, also, I believe, related to the same operation. I'll ask you to
18 confirm that.
19 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P2823.
20 Q. Sir, on the screen before you we see an order from the
21 Foca Tactical Group. It's dated 7th of July, 1992, so the very next day.
22 MR. JEREMY: If we could please go to page 5 in the English and
23 page 6 in the B/C/S.
24 Q. And we might have lost that document for a moment on your screen
25 but we'll have it back shortly.
Page 27220
1 While we're waiting for that, Witness, I'll ask you, do you
2 recall -- actually, it's on the screen before us. So we see that it is
3 signed by Marko Kovac, your brigade commander, and we see there is an
4 instruction there to send to all subordinate units. Do you recall
5 receiving an order in connection with these operations on -- on this
6 date, on the 7th of July, 1992?
7 A. This document is similar to the first one. I didn't see it then.
8 My battalion commander probably saw it and probably had a document like
9 this. It was emphasised in the first paragraph, as far as I could
10 notice, that there were large groupings of the Muslim forces and
11 everything else that I've already told you about. We had carried out an
12 attack in order to reach the line, and that was done.
13 MR. JEREMY: Could we go back to page 1, please.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Pljevaljcic, we see that the title of this order is:
15 Order from the commander of the Foca Tactical Group to break through the
16 siege of Gorazde.
17 I would like to focus your attention on paragraph 2 of this
18 document and the first sentence where we read in pertinent part:
19 "With one brigade reinforced by artillery, the Foca Tactical
20 Group shall attack in the general Ustikolina-Gorazde direction?"
21 MR. JEREMY: Could we please now go to page 2 in the English and
22 the B/C/S. I'd like to focus on paragraph 5, please.
23 Q. And, sir, in paragraph 5, we see a reference to the 2nd
24 Foca Light Infantry Brigade with instructions to attack a particular
25 location.
Page 27221
1 So your brigade and your units were involved in this attack that
2 we see was ordered by General Mladic and, in turn, by Colonel Kovac.
3 Yes?
4 A. I see the order, but I know what happened. That is what I'd like
5 to deal with a bit. I've already told you, I see the order, I was aware
6 of that order, but a few days before this attack, on practically all the
7 lines, we had three of our soldiers who were killed, two Blagojevics, and
8 Grujic, the commander of a company. And then what followed, followed.
9 And in this way, we completed the defence line of Foca. Probably in some
10 areas we went even further, but at any rate, the line, the administrative
11 line, was kept throughout.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. JEREMY: I'd like to move to page 3 in the English of this
14 document, and I'd like to look at the top of page, page 3, and page 3 in
15 the B/C/S. I'd like to focus halfway down the page.
16 Q. Now, sir, halfway down the page in the -- in the B/C/S version,
17 we see a reference to the Serbian Army Miljevina Battalion. That was
18 Pero Elez's units, yes?
19 A. Yes, Pero Elez's.
20 Q. Now, Radovan Stankovic was a part of his units, yes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Radovan Stankovic was convicted by the court in BiH in 2006 for
23 rapes and abuse of women in Foca, yes?
24 A. Well, I know he was convicted, but that has nothing to do with
25 this.
Page 27222
1 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to the next page in B/C/S.
2 Q. Now, we see a reference to the 1st Independent Dragan Nikolic
3 detachment. That's at the top of the page in the B/C/S and halfway down
4 the page in the English. Sir, in July 1992 this detachment was commanded
5 by Branislav Kosovic, yes?
6 A. No, not Kosovic, Cosovic.
7 Q. Thank you and forgive my poor pronunciation.
8 Now this unit included Zoran Vukovic, Radomir Kovac, also known
9 as Klanfa, and Janko Janic, also known as Tuta, yes?
10 A. I don't know who was in that unit. I was not in that unit and I
11 don't know who was there. I know all of these men, but whether they were
12 in that unit ...
13 Q. Sir, do you recall testifying in the Karadzic case in
14 January 2013?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And do you recall being asked about these same men and whether
17 they were in this particular unit?
18 A. Well, I don't know. Maybe a question was put to me but I really
19 don't know what the point is whether they were there. They were in the
20 Army of Republika Srpska. Now the least important thing is in which unit
21 somebody was. I mean --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Refrain from commenting on what is important and
23 what is not important. Limit yourself to answering the questions. It
24 may be very important for us even if you do not understand that.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
Page 27223
1 MR. JEREMY:
2 Q. Witness, in the Karadzic case, when asked about these three men,
3 you said that, "I think that they were in this unit."
4 Would you provide the same answer today?
5 A. Well, yes, I'd give the same answer. I think they were. But I'm
6 not claiming that with certainty. That's an assumption only.
7 Q. Now, both Zoran Vukovic and Radomir Kovac were convicted by this
8 Tribunal for rapes against women in Foca, yes?
9 A. I know they were convicted, but I don't know what for.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, for the basis of all this --
11 Witness, you said, I would give the same answer. I think they
12 were members of that unit. And you then added:
13 "That's an assumption only."
14 Now, on -- why do you think that they were members of that unit?
15 You must have a reason for that.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would see them. You know
17 what? Even when defences are carried or attacks or whatever, we act
18 together. So then soldiers mix. So I am just assuming that they were in
19 Branimir Cosovic's unit.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You say you worked together with that unit, and you
21 saw them -- when working together, you saw them at the time which makes
22 you think that they may have been members of that unit. Is that well
23 understood?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is well understood. You
25 understood that, that this operation, the taking of Preluca [phoen],
Page 27224
1 et cetera, we were there together. Now whether they were in that unit or
2 in Gojko Jankovic's unit, that I don't know. But I did see them. They
3 were there.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
5 MR. JEREMY:
6 Q. Sir, you've talked about working together with these units and
7 below the reference that we just looked at to Dragan Nikolic, we see a
8 refreshes to the independent Zaga detachment. And we read that it shall
9 take part in the "ciscenje," cleansing or mopping up, of inhabited areas
10 in the direction of the 5th battalion's attack. So that was your
11 battalion and this is an example or this is an order for your unit to
12 work with the independent Zaga detachment, yes?
13 A. Well, something like that. Zaga had a very small unit, five or
14 six men, and he was involved in reconnaissance and he was very good and
15 reconnoitring. He provided us with information. That is strictly what
16 he did. He was a reconnaissance man. And it wasn't even a platoon.
17 Q. And, sir, when you refer to "Zaga," you were referring to
18 Drago Kunarac; correct?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. And you know that he was also convicted of crimes in Foca,
21 including rape, by this Tribunal?
22 A. I know he was convicted, but what he was charged with, I don't
23 know. I didn't read any of that.
24 Q. Now, you said that Zaga was involved in reconnaissance and in
25 connection with this man and his duties, I'd like to show you a document.
Page 27225
1 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 31461.
2 Q. Now, sir, on the screen before you, we see a -- a certificate in
3 respect to Drago Kunarac. We see in the top left corner that this was
4 issued by the military post 7141 Srbinje on the 16th of July, 1999?
5 Now we read below that that the certificate was issued at the
6 request of Defence counsel for Drago Kunarac. In the body of the
7 document, we see a reference to offensive operation ordered on the
8 7th of July, 1992, by the commander of the Drina TG.
9 So that's the operation set out in the documents that we've --
10 we've just looked at; correct?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. And we see a reference to combat in this area commencing on the
13 9th of July, lasting until 21st of July. And we see a reference to the
14 Cerova Ravan elevation. That's where you were injured during this
15 operation; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And in the final paragraph we see a reference to the
18 reconnaissance duties that Mr. Kunarac carried out during that operation.
19 Those fit with the description that you provided you of this man's
20 duties; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd tender that document as the next
23 Prosecution exhibit.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31461 receives number P6842,
Page 27226
1 Your Honours.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there's no objection. We admit it. P6842 is
4 admitted.
5 At the same time, Mr. Jeremy, I've never heard a military post
6 telling me anything. An unknown person signing this -- well, it's true
7 that it seems that it fits with the testimony of the witness, but the
8 Chamber has -- at least I and perhaps my colleagues would also have some
9 questions about what this actually means. But I leave it to that for the
10 time being.
11 So probative value is still to be carefully considered.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Q. Now, sir, a few minutes ago you mentioned that you knew who
15 Radovan Stankovic was and that he was a member of Pero Elez's unit. Now,
16 in connection with this man, I would like to show you a document.
17 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 27944.
18 Q. Sir, we see that this is an order dated 7th of April, 1995. It's
19 from President Karadzic to the VRS Main Staff. And it concerns the
20 transfer of a group of conscripts from VRS units to the Ministry of the
21 Interior in order to form detachment of special police forces in Srbinje.
22 Sir, you know that Foca was renamed Srbinje, yes?
23 A. Yes, for a certain period of time.
24 Q. And you know that Srbinje labelled Foca a Serb place, yes?
25 That's what the name means.
Page 27227
1 A. That is not right. That is not right because it had to do with
2 the other towns in Herzegovina: Nevesinje, Ljubinje, Trebinje, Srbinje.
3 You can rest assured that it was on account of that. It rhymed better.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Was it just for rhyme that it would fit better with
5 Trebinje as -- what does Trebinje mean? Literally.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well I don't know what it means.
7 That something is needed.
8 JUDGE ORIE: What does Srbinje mean?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, then it meant the name of the
10 town. Now whether it meant something to anyone, I don't know. To
11 someone obviously it meant that it was Serb. I know, I was there, I was
12 a citizen of that town when the name was changed, and I know --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said to someone. Obviously it meant that
14 it was Serb. To someone? Or to those who changed the name?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I mean Muslims. And later, in
16 the joint parliament of the municipality of Srbinje, at their
17 intervention, the name was reverted to Foca. So they were bothered by
18 it.
19 Well, I can say that a few Serbs were bothered by it too, a few
20 Serbs who were also in the municipal assembly. But the majority had
21 voted in favour of it at that point.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Why were they bothered if it's just rhyme? I mean,
23 good rhyme is good for everyone, isn't it? Or were they bothered because
24 it was such a clear reference to Serbhood, that new name?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, somebody sees it that way.
Page 27228
1 But other people see it the way I had put it. I was a member of the
2 municipal assembly, and I was one of the people who was against that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether you were in favour or you were
4 against, that's a different matter. But you say it was just for rhyme
5 and that was why some people were bothered about it, others were not
6 bothered about it, so poetical issues rather than whether it referred to
7 Serbhood. Is that well understood?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you again: That's really what you mean?
10 It's about rhyme. It's not a reference to Serbhood in common
11 understanding?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. That's right.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
14 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Could we go to page 2 in this document.
16 Q. Now, sir, here we see a list of military conscripts who are
17 reallocated in the VRS to the MUP in order to form a detachment of
18 special police forces in Srbinje.
19 Number 1, we see Radovan Stankovic, son of Todor, detachment
20 commander.
21 Sir, you -- you are aware that Radovan Stankovic became the
22 commander of this special police in Srbinje; correct?
23 A. I did know that. But, believe me, I didn't know
24 Radovan Stankovic personally until he came to prison at the KP Dom. But
25 I did hear about this unit. I know that it had been formed. And I don't
Page 27229
1 see what's in dispute. I mean, concerning the establishment of that
2 unit.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, don't bother about whether it's important
4 or not, what the issue is. We leave that to the parties and the Bench
5 will consider that. You don't have to give any comment on that.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours. And I tendered this
8 document as the next Prosecution exhibit.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 27944 receives number P6843,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
13 MR. JEREMY:
14 Q. Sir, to finish today, I'd like to discuss briefly your evidence
15 relating to the partisan hall and to the KP Dom facility.
16 Now, in paragraph 14 of your statement, you say that when the
17 conflict broke out, some Muslim inhabitants had to be accommodated and
18 that is why they were placed in Codor Mahala, the partisan DTV, and KP
19 Dom.
20 Now, as regards the partisan hall or DTV, you never actually went
21 there, did you?
22 A. That's right, certainly, never.
23 Q. All right. Well, we'll leave that there. Now in respect to
24 KP Dom Foca you started working there in 1995; correct?
25 A. That's right.
Page 27230
1 Q. Now, did you ever go there between 1992 and 1994?
2 A. Well, I didn't go there. I was passing by, as I went to the
3 hospital, because I was wounded. And I did pass by the KP Dom because
4 you do pass that way if you go to Cerova Ravan and that area.
5 Q. Sir, this Trial Chamber has received evidence of beating and
6 killings of non-Serb detainees in KP Dom between 1992 and 1994.
7 My question for you is: When, if at all, did you first learn
8 about these beatings and killings at KP Dom?
9 A. I personally never did. I'm telling you, until July, I was at
10 the front line. I wouldn't leave the front line for 25 days, stretches
11 as long as that. And then what happened --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you focus on the question. The first
13 question was: Did you learn about beatings and killings in KP Dom. That
14 means not whether you observed it yourself but whether you learned about
15 that.
16 Did you, or did you not?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if I say yes, it would be
18 yes, in terms of from the media or following trials, reading.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you say yes, so you learned about them.
20 When did you learn about them?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I learned about that when the
22 first people of Foca were arrested and when the trials started. Then it
23 was mentioned that that did happen.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You mean after the war?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, after the war.
Page 27231
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.
2 MR. JEREMY:
3 Q. Sir, your -- your brother Vlatko was a guard at KP Dom, yes?
4 A. That's right. He is retired now.
5 Q. And he worked there between 1992 and 1994, didn't he?
6 A. Yes. From time to time.
7 Q. Now, this Tribunal, in the Krnojelac case, found that your bother
8 was implicated in the beating and killings of non-Serb detainees in
9 KP Dom. That's paragraphs 317 and 339 of the Trial Judgement.
10 You know that, don't you?
11 A. I don't know. I haven't read the Krnojelac Judgement. And
12 knowing my brother, I don't believe that. That's for sure.
13 Q. Sir, you've told us today that you only became aware of these
14 beatings and these killings at KP Dom after the war. Now, since your
15 brother was a guard at KP Dom during the relevant period between 1992 and
16 1994, I put it to you that you knew about these beatings and these
17 killings at the time that they were happening.
18 A. I never heard of it. I never read about it. I didn't have any
19 knowledge about a single Muslim becoming a victim at the KP Dom. I
20 didn't hear a thing like that.
21 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I have no further questions in
22 cross-examination.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 Mr. Lukic, it's time for a break. How much time would you need
25 after the break?
Page 27232
1 MR. LUKIC: Probably around five minutes, not more.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We could consider -- if you say it's really
3 five minutes -- and I'm looking at my colleagues. It seems that we have
4 no further questions for the witness. We could consider to use that five
5 minutes now. But I leave it to you and to Mr. Mladic.
6 MR. LUKIC: No, it's better if we continue so we release this
7 witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You'll now be re-examined by Mr. Lukic.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning once again, Mr. Pljevaljcic.
11 A. Good morning.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have briefly P3680 in
13 e-court.
14 Q. While we are waiting for it to come up, it's a document signed by
15 General Mladic. It's dated 6 July 1992. And in connection with this
16 document, a document produced by the Foca Tactical Group was shown to you
17 dated the 7th of July, 1992. It concerns an order to carry out
18 operations towards Gorazde. You told us that you stopped at the
19 administrative line with Gorazde. Were there any requests on the part of
20 the soldiers in your units to go ahead and proceed?
21 A. Yes, there were such requests.
22 Q. What kind of explanation was given?
23 A. There were such requests because Miroslav Stanic was the chief of
24 the Crisis Staff, and therefore he was probably involved in all of this.
25 When we occupied these lines, the Serbian army had such a level of morale
Page 27233
1 that they wanted to advance, and we asked Stanic to allow us to advance
2 towards Gorazde. However, he said, I spoke to Radovan Karadzic and he
3 told me that the administrative line of Foca municipality should remain.
4 And that's what we did, although the soldiers were very much keen to
5 proceed, and they put forward such requests.
6 Q. Thank you. Did the Muslims have good sabotage elements who came
7 behind your backs?
8 A. Well, most probably, judging by the actions they carried out, and
9 it happened almost on the regular basis. December 1992, Josanica, then
10 Jabuka, then the villages around Tjentiste, then Selo -- village
11 Brigovinija [phoen], Slatina. These were the places where all these
12 sabotage groups made incursions into, committed atrocities even against
13 the children. There are monuments commemorating these victims and there
14 were over 100 of them. However, no one has been prosecuted for that
15 crime to this date.
16 Q. Thank you. You have been asked about members that you say might
17 have been members of Dragan Nikolic. Do you know if these were permanent
18 members? Did they used to go to and fro? Did they act independently?
19 What do you know about that?
20 A. These people were involved and that's why I said they might have
21 with Dragan Nikolic. They were sometimes with Vojko, sometimes with
22 volunteers from Serbia and Montenegro, so these people were switching
23 from one unit to another. They were looking for a suitable environment
24 for themselves. There's no doubt that once they engaged in combat, they
25 were remarkable fighters.
Page 27234
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pljevaljcic. I have no further questions for you.
2 A. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, no further questions for the
4 Prosecution.
5 MR. JEREMY: No, Your Honours. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Pljevaljcic, this concludes your testimony
7 in this court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague.
8 It's a long way for you. And I would also like to thank you for having
9 answered the questions put to you, put to you by the party, put to you by
10 the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again. You may follow the
11 usher.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we resume at five minutes to
15 11.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
19 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think so, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
22 In view of the time estimates, we should give it a serious effort
23 to finish, to conclude the evidence, of this witness today. Thirty
24 minutes for the Defence; one hour and a half for the Prosecution. That
25 should fit within -- until quarter past 2.00. Otherwise, the witness
Page 27235
1 would have to wait until after the weekend.
2 Good morning, Ms. Hasan.
3 MS. HASAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I think, to be accurate,
4 our estimate was about one hour, which is what I will try to stick to.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's even before, I would say. Then I must have
6 missed something, because I have still one hour and 30 minutes on my list
7 but could be that it has been corrected afterwards.
8 MS. HASAN: It is possible. But I am hopeful we'll be able to
9 finish this witness today in any event.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. And perhaps even start with the next
11 one.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Mladjenovic. Before you give
14 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text
15 is handed out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: MILADIN MLADJENOVIC
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mladjenovic. Please be seated.
21 Mr. Mladjenovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You
22 find him to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, Mr. Mladjenovic, good morning.
Page 27236
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. Can you please state your full name for the record, but slowly,
3 please.
4 A. My name is Miladin Mladjenovic.
5 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, have you given a written statement to the
6 Defence team of General Mladic?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have in
9 e-court document 65 ter 1D01669.
10 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, since this is your first appearance here, please
11 look at the left-hand side of the screen in front of you, and there you
12 can see a text.
13 My question is: The details, personal details contained herein,
14 your name, your date of birth, name of your father, your nationality, and
15 the signature, is that all yours?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 Can we now look at the last page of this document.
19 Mr. Mladjenovic, on this page that you see in front of you, have
20 you put the signature and the date in your own hand?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. And one more question. Can we please now focus on
23 paragraph 7 of this statement.
24 You will have it in the B/C/S as well, so paragraph 7. Sir,
25 during proofing for your appearance in this courtroom today, did you
Page 27237
1 point out to me a typo in the last name of the person mentioned in
2 paragraph 7. So that instead of "Milicevic," it should read
3 "Milovcevic"?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Now that we have made this correction for the record
6 that you indicated, today, since you made a solemn declaration, would you
7 give answers in the same manner today as you did with regard to the
8 questions put to you in this statement, to the best of your knowledge?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have
12 the statement of Mr. Miladin Mladjenovic, 65 ter 1D01669, tendered into
13 evidence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1669 receives number D707,
16 Your Honours.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, admitted into evidence.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I
21 would take the liberty to read the summary of this witness's statement.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We only have a B/C/S
23 version. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The interpreters tell us that they only have a
25 B/C/S version of your summary, but if you slowly read, Mr. Stojanovic, it
Page 27238
1 will work.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Correct. Thank you,
3 Your Honours.
4 Until the 1992 war, Witness Miladin Mladjenovic, worked as a
5 driver for Vihor company based in Bratunac. After the outbreak of war,
6 he was recruited as a member of the civilian protection in the village of
7 Kravica, since he had earlier been wounded at Mount Majevica so that
8 practically he was unfit for military service.
9 In July of 1995, he worked as a gatekeeper in the Vihor rolling
10 stock compound and he remembers that after the fall of Srebrenica, he
11 received an order from his supervisor to take a company bus and to drive
12 Muslims to -- from Potocari to Kladanj. After he took the bus, he went
13 to Potocari, and on the road, he saw a number of buses heading for
14 Bratunac.
15 Upon arrival in Potocari, in front of a house in the vicinity of
16 a transformer station in Potocari, he boarded his passengers, namely,
17 women, children, and elderly men, and drove them to Tisca village located
18 on the separation line with the Muslim forces. From that point, the
19 passengers continued on foot towards the territory under the control of
20 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He did not make any other rounds on that
21 same day.
22 The next day, following an order of his supervisors, he came to
23 Potocari again at around 9.00 and drove men fit for military service from
24 Bijela Kuca, the white house, the whole day. He took them to the gym
25 inside the elementary school in Bratunac, and according to his
Page 27239
1 calculations, he made around ten rounds and drove between 450 and 500
2 people. In front of the gym, he saw a policeman from the Bratunac police
3 station, but he didn't see any senior officers.
4 The witness does not remember whether anyone else gave a ride to
5 these people in Bratunac except him. He received information in Bratunac
6 that these able-bodied men that he had driven there would be transported
7 to Kladanj.
8 During the boarding of the bus and within the area around the
9 white house, he did not see anyone being beaten or maltreated. When he
10 finished work on that day, he thinks that the white house was completely
11 vacated.
12 On the following day, he went back to his regular duties in the
13 company where he worked.
14 Now, this was the summary of this witness's statement, and with
15 your leave, Your Honours, I would put just a couple of questions to the
16 witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Before you do so, please give me one second.
18 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, could you please tell the Court how far is the
21 village of Tisca from Potocari?
22 A. I don't know exactly what the distance is, but I know that it
23 took four to five hours to drive because I was not alone on the road.
24 There were convoys and convoys of buses.
25 Q. Is that the time of one-way trip, this four or five hours, or is
Page 27240
1 it a return trip?
2 A. That was the duration of a return trip.
3 Q. On the first day, when you drove those people, was it necessary
4 for you to stop anywhere along the route?
5 A. Yes. I stopped in Vlasenica, and when we were approaching Tisca,
6 they were thirsty and we gave them water.
7 Q. Will you tell us, please, for how long did you stop and remain in
8 Tisca village?
9 A. Well, we spent quite some time there because we were waiting for
10 these convoys to pass so that the road can be cleared.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat how long they
12 stayed.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Did you notice any abuse, any maltreatment? Did you see anyone
15 being separated from their family?
16 A. No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the interpreters did not catch how
18 long the witness said they were waiting for the convoys.
19 How long did you stay there?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean while we were waiting in
21 Tisca?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Correct.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between half an hour and one hour.
Page 27241
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. Can we please now focus our attention on paragraph 5 in the
4 document, which is now marked as D707, where you say speaking about the
5 first day that you travelled to Potocari, and you say:
6 "I went to Potocari on the way there, I saw several buses that
7 were going in the direction of Bratunac."
8 In order for us who are not from that region to have a clear
9 picture, can you please tell us and give us approximately a more precise
10 location on the road between Potocari and Vlasenica or Bratunac, where
11 did you approximately encounter these vehicles?
12 A. I saw some of them en route from Bratunac to Potocari.
13 Q. Can you please tell the Court the distance in kilometres between
14 Potocari and Bratunac.
15 A. About 3 kilometres.
16 Q. Apart from buses in that convoy, did you see any other kind of
17 vehicles that were used for transportation?
18 A. There were some heavy-duty vehicles, such as lorries.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I seek clarification, Mr. Stojanovic.
20 Sir, you're quoted as saying that you saw the buses en route from
21 Bratunac to Potocari. Was it Bratunac to Potocari or Potocari to
22 Bratunac? According to the statement, you said from Potocari to
23 Bratunac.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I would like to ask you to answer that question.
Page 27242
1 A. Since I went from Bratunac to Potocari, I encountered buses and
2 trucks, driving from Potocari towards Bratunac. That is to say, towards
3 Kladanj.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you. I would ask you to tell the Court about that first
7 day. What is your best estimate? When did you leave those people there
8 and when did you go back to Bratunac? What day was that?
9 A. That was approximately 1700 hours in the afternoon, and I
10 returned to Bratunac around 7.00, 7.30, in the evening.
11 Q. Thank you. My last question is going to be similar. Can you
12 tell us approximately at what time you finished driving to Bratunac on
13 the following day, the next day, the last time you went to Bratunac and
14 the elementary school.
15 A. That was approximately 1600 hours. I don't know the exact time,
16 but around 1600 hours.
17 Q. When you set out towards the school in Bratunac, did anybody stay
18 behind at Bijela Kuca, the white house, as you call it?
19 A. When I dealt with the last transportation, the white house
20 remained empty. There was not a single passenger left.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mladjenovic, for your help.
22 A. Thank you, too.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one follow-up question to the last one.
24 You said there was not a single person -- a single passenger left
25 in the white house. How do you know that? Did you leave the bus and
Page 27243
1 enter the house?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And which part of the house did you visit?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ground floor and upstairs.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And while you were visiting the white house, the
6 last passengers were already in your bus. Is that correctly understood?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I went to check, to see
8 whether anybody was left behind. I checked. There was no one left
9 there, and that's how we set out towards Bratunac.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the last passengers were already in the bus
11 while you were visiting the house?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Were there any guards guarding the bus?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What type --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had one military policeman who
17 was with me on the bus.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And were there any other uniformed people around
19 the bus?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I also have one question.
24 In your statement, we read that you said:
25 "While the men were entering the bus," you're talking about the
Page 27244
1 day when you arrived at 9.00 in the morning in Potocari, "I did not see
2 any of their personal items."
3 Do I have to understand this as they did not carry any personal
4 items?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not search these
6 military-aged men. They didn't have any kind of luggage, no bags,
7 nothing like that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see, when going out of the bus, did you see
9 any luggage near the white house?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one question.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you, too, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: What uniform were these guards wearing who were
15 guarding the bus?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Military uniforms.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Military uniform of which army?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the Army of Republika Srpska.
19 Camouflage. It was a camouflage uniform.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, are you ready to cross-examine the
23 witness, Mr. President.
24 MS. HASAN: Yes, I am.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would like to introduce you to the witness
Page 27245
1 first.
2 Mr. Mladjenovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Ms. Hasan.
3 You'll find her to your right. Ms. Hasan is counsel for the Prosecution.
4 Please proceed.
5 Cross-examination by Ms. Hasan:
6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mladjenovic.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. I would just like to start with a correction to your statement.
9 Now, in your statement, at paragraphs 4 to 5, you describe the
10 first day when you picked up -- or you took a bus and you transported
11 women, children, and elderly men from Potocari to Tisca. Now, did you
12 transport the men, women, and children on the 12th of July, that first
13 day, on a bus?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recall testifying about this very subject matter before
16 the State Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the Dusko Jevic case?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And before testifying in that court, you gave an oath to tell the
19 whole truth?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you -- and that what's you did?
22 A. Yes. But I had just one correction.
23 Q. Please go ahead.
24 A. I addressed the Court because I kept thinking, and it seemed to
25 me that it was on the first day that I drove the women and children and
Page 27246
1 men who were not fit for military service in a truck.
2 Q. So today do I understand that -- am I to understand you that you
3 drove the women and children and elderly men on a truck?
4 A. I drove a bus. Well, I kept thinking -- since there were a lot
5 of buses and trucks, I kept thinking it was a truck. But what is correct
6 is that it was a bus that I drove on the first day.
7 Q. Now, you were ordered from your house to go to the Vihor company
8 to pick up the bus.
9 MS. HASAN: If we could take a look at 65 ter 31477.
10 Q. This is -- what you'll see is an aerial image of Bratunac. And
11 take your time to look at it. What I'm going to ask you to do is to
12 identify the Vihor company premises for us.
13 MS. HASAN: And, meanwhile, if I could ask the usher to provide
14 the witness with a marker.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could somebody please
16 explain this picture to me because I'm not very knowledgeable about this
17 kind of thing?
18 MS. HASAN:
19 Q. Well, Witness, this is an aerial image so it's an image taken
20 from a bird's eye view of Bratunac.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you can see on the -- the top centre, do you -- can you
23 identify the stadium there?
24 A. The thing with the white lines; is that it?
25 Q. Just next to that.
Page 27247
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- could we --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh. Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could we seek the assistance of the usher moving a
4 pointer so that we are better able to -- could we just --
5 Ms. Hasan, if you say, Do you see this and this, could you ask --
6 could the instruct the usher to move the pen or whatever it is, the
7 pointer, at the issue you wanted to look at. Stadium, for example, may I
8 take it it's a little bit further to the right as from where it is now?
9 MS. HASAN: That's correct. More to the right.
10 JUDGE ORIE: More to the right.
11 MS. HASAN: It's right there.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you see an oval there, Witness, an oval next to
13 where that pointer is? Could you please refrain from marking yet. Could
14 the markings be undone.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Uh-huh. All right.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you see an oval?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's what Ms. Hasan refers to as the stadium.
19 MS. HASAN: Perhaps it might assist if we just blow that up, the
20 centre of that picture up a little bit, to see if this helps the witness
21 orient himself. That's a little bit too much.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we zoom out again.
23 MS. HASAN:
24 Q. Does that help you, Witness?
25 A. Yes.
Page 27248
1 Q. Could you put an X on the premises of the Vihor company.
2 A. I think, Your Honours, that that's it, this photograph that I
3 marked.
4 Q. Now, you picked up the bus on the first day and the second day
5 from -- from those premises; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where did you get the fuel for your vehicle from?
8 A. At the company, Vihor Bratunac, within the compound of the
9 company.
10 Q. All right. Now, if you left the company, are you able to show us
11 using arrows the route you took from Vihor to Potocari, the road that you
12 took?
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Could you just -- at the end of the line you have just drawn, can
15 you put an arrow and write a letter P, for Potocari, so we know the
16 direction.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. And when you transported the women and children to Tisca, you
19 would have taken the road to Konjevic Polje, is that correct, towards
20 Konjevic Polje?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you just mark -- mark with the letters KP the road that
23 leads to Konjevic Polje.
24 A. [Marks]
25 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, I'd offer this marked aerial image into
Page 27249
1 evidence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31477, as marked by the witness,
4 receives number P6844, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
6 MS. HASAN:
7 Q. Now I'm going to show you, Witness, a very similar aerial image.
8 It's perhaps a little bit closer than this one.
9 MS. HASAN: If we could have 65 ter 4826 displayed.
10 Q. Now, we know this image was captured on the 12th of July, 1995,
11 at approximately 2.00 p.m. Do you see there on the road a lineup of
12 buses in the centre of that image?
13 A. I do not.
14 Q. Okay. We can try to zoom in a little bit.
15 Do you see them now? There's some buses lined up there just in
16 front of the Hotel Fontana.
17 A. Yes, I see it now.
18 Q. Now, when you -- in your statement, you say you left to pick up
19 your bus from the Vihor company between 1.00 and 2.00 p.m. When you
20 drove to Potocari, did you see this lineup of buses?
21 A. These buses were not only from Vihor Bratunac. These buses came
22 there from Zvornik as well, buses and trucks, that took over -- I mean,
23 Muslims and drove them to Kladanj. It wasn't one or ten buses. It was
24 like 50 or even more buses and trucks.
25 Q. Do you -- do you know whether some of those buses were
Page 27250
1 Sarajevotrans buses?
2 A. No, I don't know that.
3 Q. Now, I take it you're familiar with the Hotel Fontana. Were you
4 aware that earlier that morning, on the 12th of July, that General Mladic
5 had a meeting at the Hotel Fontana?
6 A. I don't know because I wasn't there. I worked on that day. I
7 was at work.
8 Q. Just to go back to your -- the evidence you gave to my friend
9 earlier today. You said that you went to Potocari at 5.00 p.m. and that
10 the transport took until about 7.00 to 7.30 p.m., so I just want a
11 clarification of what you did between 1.00 and 2.00 p.m. and 5.00 p.m.?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am talking about --
14 JUDGE ORIE: One --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the first day --
16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll first listen to Mr. Stojanovic.
17 Mr. Stojanovic.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that this kind of
19 question is going to create confusion. Whether it's the first or second
20 day, that is my first point. And secondly, I think that it is a
21 misquote. The witness did not say the time that is denoted here.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's what the witness said.
23 Ms. Hasan, having heard the concerns of Mr. Stojanovic, are you
24 able to rephrase your question?
25 MS. HASAN: Well, I'll go back to what was asked of the witness
Page 27251
1 and that was, "I would ask you to tell" -- this is transcript page 32,
2 line 9:
3 "I would ask you to tell the Court about the first day. What is
4 your best estimate? When did you leave those people there and when did
5 you go back to Bratunac?"
6 Q. I'm sorry. So if I understand you correctly, Witness, 5.00 was
7 when you left the women, children, and elderly men at Tisca; is that
8 correct?
9 A. Yes, around 5.00. Because I don't remember the exact time, so
10 it's around 5.00, in the afternoon.
11 Q. Okay. So between 2.00 p.m. and 5.00, you're travelling to
12 Potocari and you're loading up people waiting for the convoy to depart?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, I'd offer 65 ter 4826 into evidence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number P6845, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
18 MS. HASAN:
19 Q. Now, when you arrived Potocari on that first day, who directed
20 you as to where you should be parking your bus?
21 A. Those guards told me, the ones that were up there.
22 Q. And when you say "guards," are you meaning soldiers?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. These were VRS soldiers?
25 A. Soldiers of Republika Srpska.
Page 27252
1 Q. So let's move onto the 13th of July, the second day when you went
2 back to Potocari.
3 Now this is when you -- when you transported the separated men
4 from Bijela Kuca to the sports hall of the elementary school in Bratunac.
5 MS. HASAN: If we could take a look at 65 ter 31478, please.
6 Q. And we see here that this is a -- another aerial image of --
7 sorry. An aerial image of Potocari that's captured at about 2.00 p.m. on
8 the 13th of July.
9 Witness, are you able to orient yourself and tell us where, if
10 you could mark with a B, the direction where the road leads to Bratunac.
11 A. I cannot find my way in this picture. Could somebody please
12 explain this image to me?
13 Q. Okay. Do you -- do you -- can you identify the DutchBat
14 compound?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first enlarge a bit more because ...
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm just interested in
17 where Srebrenica is and where Bratunac is. Is it here or up here? And
18 that way I can orientate myself on this picture.
19 MS. HASAN:
20 Q. Well, I can tell you --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the parties agree on -- we see a road which
22 stretches from the top to the bottom, where it appears that there are
23 quite some vehicles which, from the air, look as if they may be buses.
24 Now, direction up, would the parties agree what direction that
25 is?
Page 27253
1 MS. HASAN: That's Srebrenica.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's Srebrenica for the Prosecution.
3 And for the Defence as well?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence agrees that that's
5 the direction towards Srebrenica.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And south is the direction?
7 MS. HASAN: Bratunac.
8 JUDGE ORIE: If I say south, I say bottom. That's Bratunac.
9 Now, what is -- do the parties also agree on what is north and
10 what is south?
11 MS. HASAN: North is in the direction of Bratunac.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, therefore, that's -- may create quite some
13 confusion, that usually maps and aerial images are giving north up, and
14 south down, and where this is just the opposite way.
15 Is there any way that we could turn this 180 degrees?
16 Witness, could you have a look again? Now, up to the --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand now.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Up to the top is north and goes in the direction of
19 Bratunac, whereas, down is now south, and that is the direction of
20 Srebrenica.
21 Does this assist you in --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then carefully listen to Ms. Hasan's questions.
24 MS. HASAN:
25 Q. Witness, are you able to identify on this aerial image where the
Page 27254
1 house was that you picked up the separated men from?
2 A. I think that it is this house here.
3 Q. Have you marked something on the map? Can you -- can you draw a
4 circle around it.
5 A. I think that it's this house here, this circle.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you mark that -- I see no marking yet.
7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
8 MS. HASAN: Okay.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the witness has now marked.
10 MS. HASAN:
11 Q. And I take it's the house that's just at the tip -- the top tip
12 of that circle you've drawn?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, can we --
15 MS. HASAN: Actually, can I have this marked image entered into
16 evidence, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31478 as marked by the witness, receives
19 number P6846, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
21 MS. HASAN: Could I ask that we zoom in closely onto the area of
22 the house the witness has just marked.
23 JUDGE ORIE: In this document with the marking or in the document
24 without the marking?
25 MS. HASAN: Either or.
Page 27255
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest --
2 MS. HASAN: That works --
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- that we zoom in in P6846 so that the witness
4 knows where he has marked.
5 Could we zoom in the lower part.
6 No, I want -- yes.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: That takes a minute. But I think it would assist
9 the witness in -- especially if we zoom in, that he knows where he made
10 any marking.
11 Ms. Hasan, is this --
12 MS. HASAN: That'll do. Thank you.
13 Q. So do you see a bus that appears to be parked, or at least in
14 this image is captured, just on the road next to that house?
15 A. I can see the buses, but I parked my bus within the grounds of
16 the house.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you perhaps first answer Ms. Hasan's question.
18 There is a -- apparently what may be a line of buses all from top to
19 bottom, but just above where you marked, there is a short, white feature
20 which is not in line with the others but is more right/left oriented than
21 up/down. Do you see that one?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I mark it?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you just tell us whether you see that this
24 one feature --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --
Page 27256
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- seeming to be a bus which is, I would say --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MS. HASAN:
5 Q. So, in fact, when you picked up the men, you drove closer than
6 that to the house?
7 A. That is correct.
8 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, I'd ask that the original aerial image
9 which bears the date and time also be admitted into evidence, the blank
10 one, so that we preserve that information as well.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is it not yet in evidence as part of a bundle?
12 MS. HASAN: I'm not sure which bundle, Your Honour, you're
13 referring to. It's not -- that date and time is not in Jean-Rene Ruez's
14 book, if that's what you had in mind. A similar --
15 JUDGE ORIE: I had a book on my mind, indeed, but ...
16 MS. HASAN: There is a very similar image. It does not bear the
17 time.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then what -- we also could ask the witness to
19 write on this picture so that we have the information together.
20 Could you write in this picture: 13 July, 2.00 p.m., because
21 that's what you would like to have in evidence. Or am I wrong? When I'm
22 wrong, I leave it to you.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it in your hands whether you want to have --
Page 27257
1 I think it was 65 ter 31478, to have that additionally in evidence mainly
2 in order to see date and time.
3 MS. HASAN: That's correct, Your Honour. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31478 receives number P6847,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, what is P6846?
9 THE REGISTRAR: The -- the same picture just marked by the
10 witness.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. -- well, I'm looking at the
13 clock. It's -- it's about time to take a break. But, first, Witness,
14 we'll take a break, and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes. You may
15 follow the usher.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take that break, Ms. Hasan, forgive me, we
19 have been away for quite a while from Srebrenica and Potocari, but you
20 asked the witness to mark how he went with his bus from Bratunac to
21 Potocari, and then you later asked him how -- what route he would take to
22 Konjevic Polje.
23 Now, he marked the exit road of Bratunac in -- if that at least
24 is also north/south directed, to the left upper direction. Now, could
25 you tell me whether that picture, that aerial picture, whether that is
Page 27258
1 also reversed as far as north/south is concerned, or is that
2 correctly oriented? That means, north up, south down.
3 MS. HASAN: I believe that that's reversed as well.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's reversed as well. That would result -- if
5 that's the case, that might resolve my problem.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you check that during the break, and I'll tell
8 you why I would like to know that. Because up and left would, in a
9 normal orientation, be north-west; whereas, from what I understand from
10 the maps, until now, Potocari is, rather, south from Bratunac than
11 north-west. So I wonder whether the marking of the witness is reliable
12 in terms of whether a road leads at all to Potocari in that direction.
13 Could you please verify that during the break and inform the
14 Chamber after the break.
15 We take that break and we'll resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
19 Meanwhile, Ms. Hasan, could you inform us about the aerial image
20 you've shown to the witness in Bratunac whether top is north or south or
21 neither of them. That's also a possibility.
22 MS. HASAN: It's -- it is actually neither of them. It's a
23 little bit complicated to turn that particular photograph. But what I
24 can tell us is that the witness has correctly marked the roads, the
25 directions I've asked him to, that Potocari is in the direction of
Page 27259
1 south-west. That's the first road he marked. And Konjevic Polje, the
2 second road that he marked, is in the directions -- is west. So it's
3 south-west and westerly.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MS. HASAN: And we've checked that with the Defence, and they
6 agree.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I'm always confused whenever aerial
8 images are turning around --
9 MS. HASAN: And it may of some assistance, our map book, which is
10 P1087, on page 17 is correctly oriented, and you can see the two roads
11 that he's marked.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll do that.
13 Your map book, do you have the P number for that, so that's ...
14 MS. HASAN: Yes, that's P01087. And the relevant is page 17.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, you may proceed.
18 MS. HASAN:
19 Q. On the second day when you transported the separated men from the
20 white house to Bratunac, how many MPs were on the bus that you drove?
21 A. One police officer.
22 Q. Were these members of the Bratunac Brigade?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And, sir, you -- you said there was one and I take it these were
25 military police, Bratunac brigade military police?
Page 27260
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: When you say "these," it's a little --
2 MS. HASAN: Sorry.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- bit confusing if there was only one.
4 MS. HASAN: There was one.
5 Q. I will take you, Witness, just back to your testimony that you
6 gave in the Dusko Jevic case. And you've told us that you confirmed that
7 you told the truth.
8 MS. HASAN: If we could have -- see 65 ter 31479A, please.
9 This is an excerpt of the transcript of the witness's testimony
10 before the State Court. If we can -- that's the cover page. If we can
11 turn to page 2, please, in the B/C/S and English.
12 Q. If you take a look at -- it's going to go from page 2 to 3 in the
13 B/C/S. In English, it's on page 2, and we can see at line 5:
14 "Was anyone escorting you at that moment towards the school in
15 Bratunac?"
16 "Witness" -- if we can turn to page 3 of the B/C/S, please.
17 And your answer was:
18 "There were two military policemen.
19 Question by Defence counsel:
20 "Were they members of the Bratunac brigade?"
21 Your answer was:
22 "Yes."
23 So, Witness, can you tell us which is correct what you told the
24 State Court that there were two military policemen or what you're telling
25 us today, that there was just one?
Page 27261
1 A. Both are correct because sometimes there were two of them, and
2 sometimes there was one of them because I made more than one round. So
3 either is correct.
4 Q. Now, these MPs, either one or two, they escorted you at all times
5 when you were travelling; is that correct?
6 A. Sometimes one of them would get off, just to have a meal or
7 something. But basically they were with me all the time. Sometimes one
8 will stay behind, and sometimes both of them, we -- would travel with me.
9 Q. Do you have their names?
10 A. I don't know their names. No, I don't know. I just know them by
11 sight.
12 Q. Was it the MPs, then, who also told you to drive the separated
13 men to the elementary school/sports hall?
14 A. Well, we received our orders in Potocari, and we were told where
15 to go. They just accompanied me. It was not their role to issue any
16 orders. Other people did.
17 Q. Who told you to drive the men to the school in Bratunac?
18 A. The guards who were at Potocari.
19 Q. And by "guards," you mean soldiers?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. VRS soldiers?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And when you arrived at the elementary school in Bratunac, it was
24 the MPs had instructed the prisoners to go into the sports hall?
25 A. As they were disembarking, there was a civilian policeman there,
Page 27262
1 and he would be there to escort them into the gym.
2 Q. Now, the separated men that you transported from Potocari, were
3 they all led into the sports hall of the elementary school?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And I'll ask you to turn your mind back to Potocari for a moment
6 on that second day when you were transporting the men, did you see men -
7 Muslim men I'm talking about - on the balcony of the white house?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And throughout the day, 13th July, when you're going back and
10 forth from Potocari to Bratunac, at no time did you see belongings, bags,
11 the personal belongings, outside the white house on the ground?
12 A. No.
13 Q. I'd like to show you a video.
14 MS. HASAN: If we could have P1147. That's the Srebrenica trial
15 video. It's ERN V000-9267. And, for the record, the clip will begin at
16 0010 -- ten minutes and 20 seconds.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No text, Ms. Hasan?
18 MS. HASAN: No. For the purposes of this question, we won't be
19 relying on any text. I don't believe there is any text in this portion.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MS. HASAN: We can stop it right there. So for the record --
23 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't use text, then also the sound should be
24 switched off because the witness would hear that, and that's ...
25 But please proceed.
Page 27263
1 MS. HASAN: So, for the record, the video is stopped at 00:10:47.
2 Q. Now, Witness, I can tell you that that video was taken the
3 afternoon of 13th July. And you recognise the white house there, don't
4 you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you still maintain that you didn't see those men on that
7 balcony?
8 A. No, I don't remember that.
9 Q. And you also claim that you missed the -- the mounds of
10 belongings that were outside the white house.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if there had been so
13 many belongings on the ground, I don't know how I would have been able to
14 park my vehicle close to the white house.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, if you say, You claim that you missed, I
16 think the witness said that he didn't see it. He didn't say that he
17 missed it. Because if you say, I missed something, then you acknowledge
18 that it was there but that you oversaw it. If you say, I didn't see
19 anything, that leaves it open whether there was anything there or not.
20 And I do understand that it's the Prosecution's position that there was
21 something there, but in all fairness to the witness, claiming that he
22 missed something is not what he said. He said, I didn't see. It's a
23 slight difference, but I insist on precision in this respect.
24 Please proceed.
25 MS. HASAN:
Page 27264
1 Q. Now, when you transported the -- these men from the white house,
2 did any members of DutchBat in UN vehicles escort your bus on any of the
3 trips that you made between Potocari and Bratunac?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did any UN vehicles follow the bus that you drove?
6 A. No.
7 Q. When you arrived at the elementary school in Bratunac,
8 approximately how much time would you say you stayed there before
9 returning back to Potocari?
10 A. Between 15 and 20 minutes at the most. Maybe up to half an hour.
11 Q. And did you see any UN vehicles or any members, DutchBat
12 officers, there in the vicinity of your bus?
13 A. I don't understand the question. In Bratunac or in Potocari?
14 Q. I apologise. I wasn't very clear. I would like to know whether
15 you saw DutchBat officers or DutchBat vehicles in the vicinity of your
16 bus when you arrived at the elementary school in Bratunac.
17 A. No, they were not there.
18 Q. And, sir, would you agree that it is possible that there were
19 other drivers, other buses, that were transporting separated men from the
20 white house in Potocari to Bratunac?
21 A. No.
22 Q. I'm going take you back to your testimony in the Dusko Jevic
23 trial. And that's 65 ter 31479. And, again, if we could turn to page 2.
24 Yes, I apologise. If I didn't say so, it is 31479A, the excerpt
25 of the testimony, and page 2 in the English, page 3 in the B/C/S.
Page 27265
1 At line 26 in the English, we see that you were asked by Defence
2 counsel:
3 "But you would agree with me that you, according to your
4 information, were the only one who was transporting those men by bus on
5 that day?"
6 And your answer was:
7 "That is possible."
8 And then Defence counsel asks you:
9 "You did not see anyone else doing that?
10 And your answer was: No.
11 So, Witness, you told the Court, the State Court that it was
12 possible that you were not the only one who was transporting the men by
13 bus from the white house on that day?
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Hasan, it's just the opposite. The answer
15 relates to the question if he was the only one. And he said that is
16 possible.
17 MS. HASAN: That's absolutely correct that it's possible he was
18 the only one.
19 Q. And I take it from that that it's possible that you were also not
20 the only one.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. Your Honours, I
23 believe that this is a deduction made by the Prosecution rather than a
24 question. She read a portion --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Of course it is deduction. If you say it is
Page 27266
1 possible that it rains, then it means that you're not certain and that,
2 therefore, there's a possibility that it doesn't rain. That means you
3 can't tell.
4 Now, the same if you say it's possible that I was the only one,
5 you leave it open that you were not the only one. So, to that extent, it
6 is -- I do agree with you that it's a deduction, but it is not a
7 deduction of facts. It's a deduction on possibilities, which is not the
8 same, and perhaps we make it clear to the witness --
9 You said at that time, as it was read to you, I didn't see any
10 others. And you said it's possible that you were the only one.
11 Now, do you consider it possible as well that you were not the
12 only one, even though you didn't see any others?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I claim that I was alone and that I
14 only transported Muslims fit for military service.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Do you mean that you didn't see anyone else doing
16 it?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, even if you do not see something to -- happens,
19 it's still possible that it happens, or do you have any specific reason
20 why you can exclude for certain that another bus or -- was involved in a
21 similar activity?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, and as far as I
23 remember, there was no other bus.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There was no other bus in your recollection.
25 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
Page 27267
1 MS. HASAN: If we could briefly move into private session,
2 please.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we do so, let me put one follow-up
4 question.
5 You have still the transcript of the other trial in front of you,
6 and the question which was put to you there first was the following. I
7 quote:
8 "You cannot tell us whether you were the first one who had
9 transported the group of people to the school or was it somewhere --
10 someone else."
11 Your answer was:
12 "I can't tell you."
13 I take it that, at that time, you couldn't exclude that somebody
14 else was driving a bus too; is that correct?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hasan. And we first move into
18 private session.
19 [Private session]
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 27268
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 27268-27270 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 27271
1 (redacted)
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 MS. HASAN:
6 Q. You mention in your statement that you recognised a colleague of
7 yours from Fakovici or from somewhere around Srebrenica who worked in
8 Vihor as a truck driver with you before the war. Was he one of the men
9 that you transported from the white house to the elementary school in
10 Bratunac, to the sports hall?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Have you seen him since then?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you make any efforts to locate him and find out where he was
15 or what happened to him?
16 A. I did not make an effort, and there was no need for me to do
17 that.
18 Q. Do you recall his name today?
19 A. No, I didn't remember it even then, when I spoke to him.
20 Q. Now, I'm going to see if I can help you refresh your recollection
21 as to who this person was.
22 Now, there's a driver from Fakovici, and his name is
23 Hamed Hasanovic. Does that help you refresh your recollection as to
24 whether that was the man that you -- your colleague?
25 A. I cannot recall. I just knew the face but not the name.
Page 27272
1 Q. Now, on the days following, following the 13th of July, were you
2 involved in any of the transportations of prisoners to Zvornik?
3 A. No. After the 13th of July, I returned to my job as a guard,
4 because I actually had work obligation.
5 Q. And you -- when you say you returned to your job as a guard, was
6 that at the Vihor company compound that we've seen?
7 A. I was over there at Borkovac where those old vehicles were. That
8 is at the entrance from Kravica towards Bratunac, if you remember, on the
9 right-hand side.
10 Q. So when you -- on those day, the 14th, 15th and 16th, did you
11 ever go back to Potocari or Srebrenica?
12 A. No.
13 MS. HASAN: Could we take a look at 65 ter 31490, please.
14 Q. This is a report from the Bratunac public security station. It's
15 dated the 2nd of October, 1995. And it's reporting on the work of the
16 department in the month of September 1995. If you take a look at
17 paragraph 1 -- sorry, item 1, it provides:
18 "Mladjenovic, Miladin, aka Miso, son of Savo and mother Todora,
19 nee Obakcic, born 10 October 1960 in Mratinjici municipality of Bratunac,
20 permanently residing in the settlement of Redzici, municipality
21 Bratunac."
22 Is that you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And it goes on saying:
25 "Married, father of two, without prior convictions."
Page 27273
1 And it says that you were deployed to work detail as porter at
2 TP, which is transport company Vihor, in Bratunac. And it says:
3 "Because there are reasonable grounds to suspect that he
4 committed the crime of aggravated theft from the Article 148,
5 paragraph 2, of the KZ," and we can turn to the next page in the
6 English," of the penal code of the RS by discovering and appropriating
7 two large truck tires on wheels and large number of brand new spare parts
8 for trucks and buses, the value of which is around 10.000 dinars, from
9 deserted Muslim houses in the settlement of Potocari, municipality of
10 Srebrenica, on 14, 15, and 16 July 1995."
11 So, sir, is that what you were doing on those dates?
12 A. That did happen, but I don't know on which days. Was it a day or
13 two or three or ten or 15 days? Well, it's correct.
14 As for those two tires, I didn't take that from Potocari. I took
15 that from the company where I had worked as a -- as a gatekeeper.
16 Q. And on the 13th of July, in the evening when you returned, did
17 you return your bus to the Vihor company compound?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And as you drove through -- into and through Bratunac, did you
20 see buses and trucks parked in several locations around the town,
21 including in front of the municipal building, in front of the
22 Vuk Karadzic school, and in other areas?
23 A. Possibly. I don't remember.
24 Q. Did you see trucks parked right in front of the Vihor company
25 garages?
Page 27274
1 A. We had 400-something buses and trucks altogether.
2 Q. Did you -- when you returned your bus to the compound, did you
3 see trucks parked in front of the garage which were loaded with Muslim
4 prisoners?
5 A. I did not.
6 Q. Now, there's evidence before this Chamber that there were trucks
7 carrying prisoners that were just parked outside the Vihor company and
8 that prisoners were taken off these buses. Screams and shots were heard,
9 and that the prisoners did not return to the buses, that these shots were
10 regularly heard throughout the night and well into the morning. So did
11 you -- I should say this: It's the Prosecution's position that men were
12 taken off these trucks and killed right outside the company. So did
13 you -- were you aware of this? Did you hear these shots?
14 A. Your Honours, I did not say that the buses and trucks were full
15 of passengers. I said that they were empty trucks. I mean, it's
16 possible that they were empty, but I did not hear of any passengers there
17 so the buses were there. They certainly weren't full. I would have
18 heard.
19 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, Your Honours, I have nothing further.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hasan.
21 Any further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just briefly, Your Honour. With
23 your leave, perhaps it would be fair if the witness had been shown
24 something, to show what time this was when this testimony referred to
25 this happening, when putting one's case to the witness.
Page 27275
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What night --
3 JUDGE ORIE: You can do whatever you think Ms. Hasan didn't do
4 and you find appropriate to do rather than to tell what Ms. Hasan did
5 wrong.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll try to deal with it this
8 way then.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, did you spend a single night at the
11 Vihor company during those days, mid-July 1995?
12 A. No. I've already said where I was, a gatekeeper.
13 Q. Thank you. And one more question in relation to that. One part
14 of the Vihor company, did it have its premises in Potocari?
15 A. That wasn't Vihor. That was Srebrenica Ekspres.
16 Q. Thank you. Now could we take a look at this together, document
17 P6847.
18 Mr. Witness, can you see here the white house that you marked on
19 that enlarged image?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are there several approaches or only one to the white house?
22 A. I don't know exactly, but I just know of this entrance, from the
23 asphalt road.
24 Q. The entrance into the compound of the white house, as we call it,
25 how far away is it from that road?
Page 27276
1 A. Perhaps 2 or 3 metres. I don't remember exactly. Something like
2 that.
3 Q. I will conclude by putting the following question: To the best
4 of your knowledge, with regard to this terrain, was it possible to access
5 the white house from anywhere else with a vehicle like a bus?
6 A. I don't think so. I think that would be impossible.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mladjenovic. We have no further questions for
8 you. And thank you on behalf of the Defence.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, any further questions?
11 MS. HASAN: No.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladjenovic, this concludes your testimony
13 because the Prosecution and the Bench have no further questions for you.
14 I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and
15 for having answered the many questions that were put to you by the
16 Prosecution, by the Defence, and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe
17 return home again.
18 You may follow the usher.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: It's a little bit early to take a break. Therefore,
23 I'll use the time to deal with a few matters.
24 I'll start with the references to the term "balija" in English
25 translations. On the 14th of October of this year, during the testimony
Page 27277
1 witness Milenko Jankovic, the Defence requested the redaction of the
2 remark, and I quote, "derogatory term for Bosnian Muslims" next to the
3 term "balija" in the English translation of Exhibit P1064 admitted into
4 evidence through Witness RM513. The Chamber then informed the Defence
5 that it would verify the practice it had adopted when a similar matter
6 had arisen in the case.
7 The Chamber notes that the issue has been discussed in court on
8 different occasions, in particular, on the 30th of May, 2013,
9 Witness Momir Nikolic, and on the 4th of September, 2013,
10 Witness Richard Butler, in relation to similar remarks added in English
11 translations of documents containing the terms "balija" or Turks.
12 The Chamber further observes that the Defence has not
13 systematically objected to the addition of such remarks in English
14 translations. For instance, the English translation of Exhibits P1091
15 and P1064 admitted into evidence through Witness RM015 on the 27th and
16 the 28th of February, 2013, both contain the remark, and I quote,
17 "derogatory term for Bosnian Muslims" next to the term "balija" and
18 although the characterisation of the term was discussed with the
19 witnesses in court, the Defence did not formulate any objection
20 concerning the English translations at the time of their admission.
21 When seized with objections of that kind, the Chamber has
22 accepted the practice of CLSS when encountering words either
23 untranslatable or where a literal translation would be inadequate in the
24 context in which the word was used an English explanation in slash
25 brackets is then added after the original words. This system alerts the
Page 27278
1 reader that the English version of the text is to be understood in the
2 context as assessed by our professional interpreters. The explanation,
3 therefore, does not mean that the word has exclusively this meaning, but
4 that the interpreter considered that this explanation provides the best
5 understanding of the word in its original context.
6 When CLSS explains the word "balija" in official documents as
7 derogatory term for Muslims, the -- this does, of course, not exclude a
8 different use of that word in a different context. It's well known that
9 words which in another context would be considered to be offensive are
10 sometimes also used in warm and affectionate relationships with a totally
11 different connotation. The practice of CLSS puts the reader on notice of
12 the contextual interpretation or explanation of the term used and any
13 party may challenge the translation or interpretation in that given
14 context. That the word has several meanings or is not always used with
15 the same connotation is not in itself sufficient to ask CLSS to strike
16 the explanation it considered to be appropriate in the given context.
17 This was the guidance of the Chamber and the review of the
18 practice developed before this Chamber.
19 Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour, for addressing this issue
21 after you. But I think that on that translation we could see draft
22 translation. So we want to check also whether it was translated by CLSS
23 or by the Prosecution.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. That's a different matter. But the
25 core of the issue, of course, is -- and, of course, you could have it
Page 27279
1 verified if it is a draft translation. I must admit that I've seen so,
2 so, so many documents with a draft translation mark on it that if you
3 want to review them all, that's fine. But I understand you're busy
4 already, Mr. Lukic, so, therefore, I would not encourages you to do it.
5 And, second, apart from draft translation or not, I think it was
6 an official document, and the context seems to be clear. You can check
7 whether the original word is "balija" and then what remains, apart from
8 verifying the translation, is a discussion on whether this explanation is
9 adequate in the given context. That's the issue we are looking at
10 primarily.
11 Ms. Hasan.
12 MS. HASAN: We've just verified that, in fact, the document
13 mentioned is a CLSS translation. Sorry, CLSS draft translation.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If Mr. Lukic considers it necessity to have it
15 reviewed on whether a final translation would give the same results then,
16 of course, he is invited to do so. But let's try to be focussed on what
17 raised the issue, that is, that interpretation or explanation of that
18 word in that context. And let's focus on that, to start with, because I
19 didn't hear any other objections about the translation at that point in
20 time.
21 I leave it to you, Mr. Lukic, whether you want to give it a
22 follow-up and have this specific portion be verified.
23 Then I briefly address another matter, which is about a corrected
24 version of Exhibit P2586.
25 On the 25th of September of last year, 2013, the Trial Chamber
Page 27280
1 admitted into evidence, under seal, excerpts of the testimony of
2 Witness RM026 from the Prosecutor versus Stakic case. The Chamber notes
3 that the document uploaded in e-court under Exhibit P2586 contains the
4 excerpts admitted into evidence, as well as excerpts of another witness's
5 testimony. The excerpted admitted into evidence under seal as P2586 are:
6 Transcript pages 2303, line 13 up to 2303, 16; 2325, line 16 to 2325,
7 line 21; 2334, line 25 to 2336, line 21; 2343, line 25 to 2345, line 10;
8 and 2387, line 19 to 2392, line 9.
9 The Chamber hereby orders the Prosecution to upload a new
10 document with the correct transcript pages under a new 65 ter number, and
11 we suggest 30368a, and instructs the Registry to replace the existing
12 document uploaded as P2586 with the corrected version uploaded by the
13 Prosecution under the suggested number, 65 ter 30368a.
14 And that concludes this observation.
15 Is the Defence ready to call its witness after the break?
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And that would then be ...
18 MR. LUKIC: It would be Mr. Rajak, Milenko.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rajak. Yes.
20 We'll take a break of 20 minutes and we'll resume at 20 minutes
21 to 2.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 1.19 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into
25 the courtroom.
Page 27281
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Rajak.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The text of a solemn declaration will now be handed
5 out to you and I'd like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. I solemnly
7 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
8 truth.
9 WITNESS: MILENKO RAJAK
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Rajak.
12 Mr. Rajak, you will first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You'll find
13 him to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
14 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Rajak.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. Will you please slowly state your full name for the record.
20 A. Milenko Rajak.
21 Q. Also please make a pause after I finished my question in order to
22 allow the interprets to interpret.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Must give a good feeling that someone is trying to
24 contact you.
25 MR. LUKIC: I apologise. My phone rang.
Page 27282
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. LUKIC: Can we have in the e-court 1D1700, please.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rajak, do you see on the left-hand part of
4 the screen that it is written: Witness statement?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Have you given a statement to General Mladic's Defence team?
7 A. Yes, I have.
8 Q. In this document before you, do you recognise the signature?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Whose signature is that? Do you know?
11 A. It's my signature.
12 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at the last page.
13 A. Yes, we can.
14 Q. Do you see a signature on this last page?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Whose signature is that?
17 A. It's my signature.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at
19 paragraphs 9 and 10, page 3 in both versions.
20 Q. Mr. Rajak, when you and I met, did you bring to my attention that
21 you wished to make some corrections in these two paragraphs?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Before we proceed with the corrections, what was the reason for
24 your not having it corrected before you signed it? Can you explain us
25 briefly.
Page 27283
1 A. That was due to my health condition. Since I was wounded, I had
2 to go to a -- the infirmary to be given shots as kind of painkillers.
3 Q. When did you sign the statement -- I mean, when was that, with
4 regard to the signing of statement?
5 A. I don't understand the question.
6 Q. What is the relation between the statement, the signing, and your
7 receiving injections?
8 A. Well, the lawyers came to see me, but I didn't have time for
9 them. I was sick. I had to go to the clinic and that was the reason why
10 I failed to correct paragraphs 9 and 10.
11 Q. On that occasion, did you drive yourself to the medical
12 institution or were you driven by someone?
13 A. My son drove me there.
14 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, first, I would point out there is only
15 difference in between B/C/S and English translation and in regard of war
16 criminals in paragraph 9. In B/C/S, it says "Prisoners of war." So
17 that's one of the corrections. Only in between the translation and the
18 original document. It's in -- in the line 2 of paragraph 9.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It says in the original, "Prisoners of war."
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that's the case then -- of course, I'm a
22 bit surprised that the witness tells us that the translation is wrong.
23 MR. LUKIC: That was what I found. He found something else.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I noticed that.
25 MR. LUKIC: He corrected the place --
Page 27284
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
2 MR. LUKIC: -- is recorded wrongly, so instead of "Veljko
3 Vlahovic school" it should Rasadnik.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, that's --
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes. I --
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. That's paragraph 9?
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes. And then paragraph 10 --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
9 MR. LUKIC: In English it's not that visible, but in B/C/S it is
10 obvious not the full sentence here. Somehow it was --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could we --
12 MR. LUKIC: -- blacked out, so I could read how that whole
13 paragraph should read.
14 The sentence -- the second sentence:
15 "Vlahovic and Rasadnik were outside its purview and under the
16 control of the Rogatica Brigade."
17 And there should be three sentences instead of this. And it
18 should read:
19 "I do not have any knowledge about its competencies, it's work or
20 its composition. Rasadnik was partially under TO/military control, and
21 partially under the police control. Veljko Vlahovic school was under the
22 control of civilian authorities."
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes, but to present this as not being complete
24 where the meaning changes 180 degrees is at least, Mr. Lukic, is a
25 euphemistic approach because whether they were under the brigade's
Page 27285
1 control or not may make quite a bit of a difference. And then to say, of
2 course, it's not complete, well, it's far more than that. You are aware
3 of that, I take it?
4 MR. LUKIC: In B/C/S if the translators can see, it's really not
5 a complete sentence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not saying that it's complete.
7 MR. LUKIC: That's why the meaning is --
8 JUDGE ORIE: A part, "the brigade," is now out, and in that
9 respect, I would say it changes, isn't it?
10 MR. LUKIC: It said, "Rasadnik was partially under TO/military
11 control. "
12 JUDGE ORIE: Originally it said Vlahovic and Rasadnik were under
13 control of the Rogatica Brigade.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And now certainly they are partially under TO. Is
16 that then still the Rogatica Brigade?
17 MR. LUKIC: TO -- until 22nd of May it was under TO, and after
18 22 of May, 1992, it was army. That's how the witness sees it, and I
19 think it is in accordance with the documents we have.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It doesn't say anything about what happened
21 after the TO/military control. It does not directly link it to the
22 brigade any further.
23 But let's see whether --
24 Witness, when you said in the new version Rasadnik was partially
25 under the TO/military control and partially under the police control, did
Page 27286
1 you include still the Rogatica Brigade as partly being in control?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I included that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That clarifies certainly some matters. I
4 take it that you want to proceed with the witness --
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- in order to --
7 MR. LUKIC: So do you want me to read the full
8 paragraphs corrected or it's not necessary?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think if you do not tender the new version,
10 then, indeed, you should read the -- you should read them -- read it.
11 MR. LUKIC: So paragraph 10 should read:
12 "The Crisis Staff was formed at the end of May/beginning of June,
13 after the negotiations with the Muslims, who had actual power, failed. I
14 do not have any knowledge about its competencies, its work for its
15 composition. Rasadnik was partially under TO/military control and
16 partially under the police control. Veljko Vlahovic school was under
17 control of civilian authorities. There were various civilian and
18 military authorities and one could not give orders to the other.
19 Responsibilities were not mixed."
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's now the new text. Does the lack of
21 knowledge appear in the original one, or is it not? Or is that added?
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 MR. LUKIC: It's added.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It's added.
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
Page 27287
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Then I take it you want to further deal
2 with the requirements for admission?
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rajak, after we have made these corrections,
7 is everything else contained in your statement accurate and truthful?
8 A. Yes, it is accurate and truthful.
9 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you
10 essentially give the same answers as you did when you provided this
11 statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. I'm now going to read the summary of your
14 statement --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Are you seeking the statement to be admitted --
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well ...
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
19 MR. TRALDI: No objections, Mr. President. Just for the clarity
20 of the record, we'd request that the witness be asked if he confirms the
21 corrections as read by Mr. Lukic.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd -- well, perhaps to cut matters short, the
23 corrections that were read to you by Mr. Lukic, do you agree that those
24 are the corrections you intended to make?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree.
Page 27288
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number ...
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1700 receives number D708,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: D708 is admitted.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. It will be very short
7 statement summary.
8 Rajak Milenko was born on the 3rd of February, 1965, in Rogatica.
9 Witness was member of Territorial Defence in Rogatica in April 1992.
10 In May 1992, he became a member of Rogatica Brigade and he was in
11 the 2nd Infantry Battalion of Rogatica Brigade.
12 He will testify how Serb forces in Rogatica were self-organised
13 on principle of Territorial Defence. Same case was with Muslim
14 population, and they also organised in those areas where they were in
15 majority.
16 He will testify on clashes between Muslim and Serb forces in
17 Rogatica municipality, on establishing control over city and Rogatica
18 municipality.
19 He will testify on particulars regarding event when he was
20 wounded on 14th of July, 1992, during clashes with Muslim forces, and,
21 after 1993, he became a member of military police in Rogatica Brigade.
22 Witness will confirm that he has no knowledge on any illegal
23 order whatsoever issued in his unit.
24 And, Your Honours, I would have several questions for this
25 witness.
Page 27289
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rajak, have you recently sent three
4 documents to the Defence team of General Mladic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What did you send to us?
7 A. I sent you the records relating to the fallen fighters, to the
8 military invalids, and the civilian casualties of war.
9 Q. Which post are you holding nowadays?
10 A. I am the president of the veterans' association of
11 Rogatica municipality.
12 Q. Are you professionally fully employed in that position?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have 1D3953 in
15 e-court.
16 Q. What we see in front of us is a list of the fallen combatants
17 with the dates when they were killed. Do you know where -- when the list
18 of the fallen combatants were -- was compiled?
19 A. Yes. These lists were updated on a daily basis. Company record
20 keepers kept daily record of the numbers of combatants which gave us
21 information about how many of them were killed and how many were wounded.
22 So we had the situation day by day, and on that basis, we knew how
23 much -- how many more combatants we needed.
24 Q. You were wounded on the 14th of July. Were there any fatalities
25 on that day among members of your unit?
Page 27290
1 A. Yes, four of my fellow combatants were killed on the day when I
2 was wounded.
3 Q. Can you remember any of their names?
4 A. I know their names. Ljuban Coric, Miso Mladen Ikonic,
5 Milija Rajak, and Milenko Lazic.
6 MR. LUKIC: Can we have page 5 in this document on our screens.
7 The lowest part of the page, number 60.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which page in English?
9 MR. LUKIC: It's -- I thought it's the same page in English,
10 fifth page. We need number 60.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Number 60 in sequential order --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Page 10.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- appears on page 10 in e-court in English,
14 Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: It was just -- was just sent for translation, so I
16 didn't have English versions in my hands.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So number 60, is that one of the men that you mentioned, among
20 the men who were killed on that day when you were wounded?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: Can we see the next pages in both versions, please.
23 Q. [Interpretation] The people who were killed on the same day when
24 you were wounded, where are they on this list? Which numbers?
25 A. Sixty-one, 62, and 64.
Page 27291
1 Q. This list, how did you compile it? Did you make it or was this a
2 list that had already been completed? Just tell us how it was that we
3 received it.
4 A. From the database, from the computer. I got this list from
5 there. It's been in existence since 1993 when the veterans' organisation
6 was established. And that means that every day records were kept on the
7 combatants who had been killed. Since we did not have the proper
8 technical facilities for that, we had to use typewriters at the time. So
9 later on, we transferred all of this to a database in the computers that
10 we have now.
11 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, yes, I have one question. Under
13 number 64, the date is the 14th of June, and that's also the date in the
14 original so I have some difficulties in understanding that that also
15 happened on the 14th of July.
16 Have you any explanation for that?
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Sir, do you see that?
19 A. Yes, possibly this is a typo. But it's certain that it was the
20 14th of July.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You mean you remember that person being killed on
22 the 14th of July?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He was right next to me, a
24 metre away from me.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
Page 27292
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Can we see the last page of
3 this document, please. And we have to see that the right -- bottom
4 right-hand corner in B/C/S.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rajak, can you recognise the signature that
6 we see on this document?
7 A. Yes, I can recognise it. It is my signature.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, we would move and tender this document
10 into evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
12 MR. TRALDI: No objections, Mr. President. I understand that the
13 Defence is also seeking to add this and the other two to their 65 ter
14 list and we wouldn't object to that either.
15 MR. LUKIC: First we have to -- my colleague is right because we
16 just received the documents.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: We have first to ask the admission of this document
19 under our 65 ter list.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And could you tell us the relevance for the case
21 because I -- I don't know whether the Prosecution intends to provide us
22 with list of fallen soldiers because this case is not about fallen
23 soldiers.
24 Mr. Lukic, this case is not about fallen soldiers, even how
25 deplorable it may be that they have fallen, but, of course, I've some
Page 27293
1 concerns that if we come up with lists of all the soldiers that died
2 in -- even up to January 1996 in Sarajevo and even some of them, I think,
3 in 1991 in -- that -- any -- what is it that you intend to establish by
4 this? Or is it just background?
5 MR. LUKIC: We -- it's a background. And we, by this way,
6 impeach the statements of the Prosecution witnesses that they claim that
7 there were no fightings. There were -- in -- in that area. They were
8 not armed. We want to say that all the time.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but who were not armed? Who were not armed?
10 MR. LUKIC: And fightings. Sorry?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Who were not armed?
12 MR. LUKIC: Some of the witnesses, like -- I cannot mention him
13 name and I don't know his number by heart, said that there was no
14 resistance in Rogatica.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No. Well, I do understand that you want to deduce
16 from this list that they were killed by members of the opposite in combat
17 of opposite forces in combat. Okay. That's clear. There's no
18 objection.
19 Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D3953 receives number D709,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
23 MR. LUKIC: The next document is in regard of wounded, so -- but
24 I will have one question in regard of that document as well. If we could
25 have document 1D3952 on our screens, please.
Page 27294
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rajak, this is a list of disabled war
2 veterans and it is compiled on the basis of date and place of wounding.
3 Is this your list?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are all the wounded persons on that list? And what was the
6 criterion used to put a person on this list of wounded persons?
7 A. Not all wounded persons are on this list. It is only the
8 veterans whose level of disability that had been established that are on
9 this list, but there are many other veterans who had lighter wounds and
10 who are not on this list.
11 Q. Do any of these people address you or any of the family members
12 of the persons who had been killed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Why do they address you?
15 A. Well, the veterans' organisation is the port of first call, if I
16 can put it that way. They can address us so that we could help them
17 exercise their rights on the basis of the law that deals with war
18 veterans in Republika Srpska.
19 MR. LUKIC: Can we see the last page of this document shortly,
20 please.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rajak, do you see the signature there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Whose signature is this?
24 A. My very own.
25 Q. And the stamp? Whose stamp is that?
Page 27295
1 A. The stamp of the veterans' organisation of the municipality of
2 Rogatica.
3 Q. We are not going to deal with this document in depth because we
4 have time constraints, but I'd just like to ask for another document,
5 1D3962.
6 This is a list of civilian casualties from the war of the
7 municipality of Rogatica. Who compiled this list, Mr. Rajak?
8 A. Also the veterans' organisation.
9 Q. Can we see the last page. Do you see the signature and the stamp
10 here?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Do you recognise them?
13 A. I do. My very own.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would just like to tender these
15 two documents now as well and we wouldn't have any further questions of
16 this witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
18 Any objections?
19 MR. TRALDI: As with the first, no objection either to their
20 addition to the list or to their admission.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we admit into evidence certain documents
22 which did not appear on the 65 ter list, it is implicit that we have
23 granted leave to add them to the list.
24 One little question perhaps, Mr. Lukic. You said for the
25 previous one, and I'm talking about the list of wounded now, that you
Page 27296
1 sought to establish that there was combat.
2 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hm --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, glancing through the two lists very briefly, it
4 struck me that the list of the dead was, well, let's say, almost
5 exclusively people who died in Rogatica, whereas for the wounded, they
6 are wounded many, many different places, so I wondered to what extent
7 that adds to establish that there was combat in the Rogatica, if you are
8 dying in Vogosca or in other far-away places. Probative value for that
9 is -- is that a different one or ... I'm just trying to understand what
10 I'm supposed to look at.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... translations so the
12 witness has your full question, actually. I would
13 [overlapping speakers] ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it's a question to the -- it's a question
15 to the Defence, not to the witness, because the probative value is not
16 something the witness -- could Mr. Mladic sit down. He would like to
17 consult you, I take it, but I would first like to have an answer on my
18 question, Mr. Lukic.
19 Mr. Lukic, I asked you to first answer my question and then I
20 give you an opportunity to consult with your client.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Rajak, how did that happen? As can you see on the list of
23 the wounded persons, people were wounded in different locations. How
24 come your municipal veterans' organisation of Rogatica is -- has them on
25 this list?
Page 27297
1 A. Exodus. People who came from Sarajevo, Vogosca, they had their
2 names recorded with our veteran's organisation so we have records of
3 these persons who are temporarily staying in Rogatica now and --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. Mr. Lukic, you apparently
5 have not understood what I have asked you. If you give us a list of
6 people killed, all recorded as having been killed in Rogatica, I
7 understand, and I ask you to explain that. I understand that this may
8 add to evidence that there was combat in Rogatica. What I've
9 difficulties in understanding, if you come with a list of wounded people
10 who were wounded everywhere, that that would contradict what witnesses
11 said about combat in Rogatica.
12 MR. LUKIC: I would withdraw our request to tender this document.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we don't have to decide on that.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... should be --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we still -- there's one document
16 remaining. That's the list of --
17 MR. LUKIC: Civilians.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- civilians that were killed.
19 Any objections? No objections.
20 Madam Registrar, for that list which is -- let's me just see.
21 That's --
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D3962.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would receive number ...
24 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number D710, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
Page 27298
1 Witness, we'll not be able to conclude your evidence today,
2 unless the Prosecution would refrain from cross-examination, but ...
3 MR. TRALDI: No, Mr. President. I need about half an hour, I am
4 afraid.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Need about half an hour. Witness this means that
6 since we're not sitting on Friday, that we'd like to see you back on
7 Monday morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom. Meanwhile, you're
8 instructed that you should not speak or communicate with whomever about
9 your testimony, whether that is testimony you have given today or whether
10 that is testimony still to be begin on Monday. If that is clear to you,
11 you may follow the usher, and we'd like to see you back after the
12 weekend.
13 No loud speaking --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I just saw in this text
15 a mistake. This should be corrected, the year when I was born at the
16 very beginning of the paragraph.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll look at that. What is your date of
18 birth? Your year of birth?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1965. And it says 1964 at the very
20 beginning.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby, then, corrected. Well, we now that
22 now for the weekend. You may follow the usher.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
Page 27299
1 JUDGE ORIE: With the apologies to all those who are assisting
2 us.
3 Mr. Lukic, on the statement of the witness, it says 1965.
4 MR. LUKIC: It says 1965, yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Was it that he appeared on the list of wounded that
6 he corrects something which is not finally not in evidence? Could it be
7 that he is listed there with a wrong date of birth? Well, perhaps you
8 look at it and we now know forever that it was --
9 MR. LUKIC: It is on that list that is not admitted.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then the correction is fine but not very
11 relevant, nor needed.
12 I wish everyone a good weekend. We adjourn for the day, and
13 we'll resume, Monday, the 27th of October, in this same courtroom, I, at
14 9.30 in the morning.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.24 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of
17 October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25