Page 29561
1 Wednesday, 10 December 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning.
8 This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 I know that there's one pending preliminary matter which is not
11 of any urgence, so therefore I'd rather leave it.
12 If the parties are ready, the witness could be escorted in the
13 courtroom.
14 Meanwhile, I address the Defence in relation to the 92 ter motion
15 for Vojo Kupresanin. The Defence has tendered 38 associated exhibits for
16 Witness Vojo Kupresanin, and the Chamber reminds the Defence that it
17 prefers that documents are tendered through the witness in court and
18 invites the Defence to reduce the number of associated exhibits.
19 The two remaining issues are P6965 and P6926, revised
20 translations. We'll deal with them but first wait for the witness to
21 escort -- to be escorted in the courtroom.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 THE WITNESS: "Dobro jutro."
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Lelek. Can you hear me in a
25 language you understand?
Page 29562
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lelek, before you give evidence the Rules
3 require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out
4 to you. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: MILOVAN LELEK
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Lelek.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lelek, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.
12 You'll find Mr. Ivetic standing to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member of
13 the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
14 Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
17 Q. Good morning, sir. Could you please state your full name for
18 purposes of the record.
19 A. Good morning. My name is Milovan Lelek.
20 MR. IVETIC: I would ask for 1D1765 in e-court. I had also
21 prepared a clean paper copy that I gave to the Prosecution. I don't know
22 whether they've had a chance to look at it.
23 Q. Sir, looking at the monitor in front of you, first of all, can
24 you tell us do you remember giving this statement to members of the
25 Defence team?
Page 29563
1 A. Yes, I remember that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it, Mr. Ivetic, that you wanted the --
3 MR. IVETIC: Yes, if the Prosecution has, could I --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could the usher assist in giving the statement to
5 the witness.
6 MR. IVETIC:
7 Q. Sir, my next question is: Looking at the first page of this
8 statement, can you tell us whose signature we see on the cover page?
9 A. This is my signature.
10 MR. IVETIC: And if we could now turn to the last page in both
11 versions.
12 Q. We see here a signature and a date. Can you tell us whose
13 signature this is?
14 A. This is also my signature.
15 Q. Sir, subsequent to signing this statement earlier this year, did
16 you have a chance to review the same in Serbian during proofing to verify
17 if everything was correct in it?
18 A. During the proofing with the Defence team lawyers, I had an
19 opportunity to review the statement and I realised that there were some
20 things in there that needed to be changed because they do not reflect
21 what I stated.
22 MR. IVETIC: If we can first turn to page 3 in both languages,
23 and I would like to look at paragraph 12.
24 Q. Sir, in paragraph 12 there is a -- an associated exhibit that is
25 identified as 1D03109, and did you and I ascertain that, in fact, the
Page 29564
1 correct document that you are referring to is 1D03122?
2 A. That's correct.
3 MR. IVETIC: And now if we can look at paragraph 13, the same
4 page in Serbian, the next page in English.
5 Q. In the paragraph there is a sentence that starts:
6 "Two days after that, the Serb population and part of the Muslims
7 evacuated ..."
8 What can you tell us about the correct time-period that this
9 sentence is applicable to?
10 A. This sentence should read instead of the "Muslims did not allow
11 the body to be pulled out and thereafter a conflict with the Muslims
12 ensued." This sentence should read after the sentence --
13 THE INTERPRETER: This is impossible to interpret.
14 MR. IVETIC: One moment, sir.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the interpreters have problems.
16 Mr. Ivetic, perhaps you -- I take it that you're more or less
17 aware and could you take it step by step so that the interpreters are
18 able to provide us with the accurate translation of the changes the
19 witness wishes to make.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And also focus on the same part of the paragraph.
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. Sir, if we can focus on the middle of the paragraph, you say:
23 "Rogatica was completely liberated as late as 23 July 1992."
24 And then the very next sentence starts:
25 "Two days after that, the Serb population and part of the Muslims
Page 29565
1 evacuated ..."
2 To what time-period should the two days after that relate?
3 A. This should refer to the period after the 22nd of May, 1992, a
4 day or two after the 22nd of May, 1992.
5 Q. Okay.
6 MR. IVETIC: And if we could now focus on the last two sentences
7 in this paragraph. To do so, we'll have to go to the next page in B/C/S.
8 Q. And now, sir, if we could focus on the last two sentences. First
9 of all, in -- the first starts:
10 "After that, a decision was made that the town must be
11 liberated ..."
12 What you can you tell us about the placement of the last two
13 sentences of this paragraph?
14 A. The last sentence, "The civilian population was again safely
15 evacuated, mostly Muslims," it should be moved and it should follow the
16 sentence: "About 20 to 25 May, 1992, we were informed that long columns
17 of civilians were on their way to Vragolovi." After that the sentence,
18 "The civilian population was again safely evacuated, mostly Muslims,"
19 should be inserted.
20 Q. And in that sentence mentioning Vragolovi, you have a date listed
21 as about 20 to 25 May and in the English it says 1995. In the Serbian it
22 says 20 to 25 May 1992. Are either of those dates accurate?
23 A. The accurate date is between 20 and 25 June.
24 Q. Of what year?
25 A. 1992.
Page 29566
1 Q. Okay.
2 MR. IVETIC: Now if we can turn to paragraph 14, which should be
3 on the page in both languages.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic --
5 MR. IVETIC: Yes?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please clarify where now the -- after that
7 decision was made that the town must be liberated from the armed Muslim
8 forces. Where does this now find its place?
9 MR. IVETIC:
10 Q. Sir, the Judge is asking about the sentence that says:
11 "After that a decision was made that the town must be liberated
12 from the armed Muslim forces."
13 How do we understand that sentence chronologically? Where does
14 it fall, where does it belong?
15 A. That sentence should be the last in the paragraph, and it should
16 follow the sentence which reads:
17 "The civilian population was again safely evacuated, mostly
18 Muslims."
19 And after that, the following sentence should be inserted:
20 "After that a decision was made that the town had to be liberated
21 from the armed Muslim forces."
22 JUDGE ORIE: So that was after the civilian population was safely
23 evacuated. Could I also ask one -- already one short clarification.
24 You said a decision was made. By whom?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The command of our -- our brigade
Page 29567
1 made that decision.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. And paragraph 14. Now, I'd like to focus on the last sentence
6 which talks about the weapons that the Territorial Defence of Rogatica
7 possessed, the military-issue weapons. Do you have any corrections to
8 make as to what is recorded here?
9 A. I have a correction to make.
10 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is reading too fast.
11 MR. IVETIC:
12 Q. One moment, sir.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if you read, could you do it very slowly.
14 Otherwise the interpreters are unable to translate your words.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. It says here that the
16 Territorial Defence of Rogatica had possessed military-issue weapons for
17 more than 500 soldiers. Before the war I worked in the Territorial
18 Defence Staff and I know what the establishment of the Territorial
19 Defence was at that time. I know that there were manoeuvre and special
20 units. As for the manoeuvre unit, there was a staff with its units,
21 there was the department of the Territorial Defence at the logistics
22 base, and the reconnaissance units. Those manoeuvre units had a total of
23 approximately 500 troops. There were also spatial units of the
24 Territorial Defence which were the units of the local communes and
25 companies. We had ten such units in local communes and 12 such units --
Page 29568
1 or perhaps 13 which were attached to various companies. There was a
2 total of 1100 men in those territorial units in local communes and
3 companies. There were also about 500 troops in the manoeuvre units. The
4 grand total would have been 1500 troops and each of the soldiers had
5 weapons issued to them. That's why I think that this is a mistake.
6 Where it says that there were more than 500 soldiers, this figure should
7 be replaced with the figure 1500 soldiers.
8 MR. IVETIC:
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. IVETIC: Now let's look at paragraph 19 on page 5 in English
11 and 5 in the Serbian as well.
12 Q. And in that paragraph -- in that paragraph, you discuss incidents
13 involving aid convoys. Could you clarify for us which of these incidents
14 were you personally present for?
15 A. In paragraph 19 in the second sentence thereof, it says:
16 "I remember that in the course of 1994 ammunition was found in a
17 convoy transporting bags with flour."
18 I personally participated when that convoy was stopped and
19 controlled. I did not participate in the control of the convoy where
20 sniper rifles were found. It was a Canadian convoy which was supposed to
21 be transporting medical supplies. I wasn't there. But I did participate
22 in the control of the convoy where ammunition was found instead of bags
23 with flour.
24 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to look at paragraph 21 at the bottom of this
25 page. So that we can have a proper translation of the first sentence,
Page 29569
1 could you slowly read the Serbian to us, the first sentence of
2 paragraph 21.
3 A. The biggest Muslim strongholds or the strongholds of Muslim
4 forces were in the town centre at Ljun in the area of Zivaljevina in the
5 villages of Ladjevina, Ferizovici, Pribosjevici, Stjenice, Brezje,
6 Kladanj, Pokrivenik and Vragolovi.
7 Q. And what you can you tell us about all these villages that you
8 have just read off? Do all of them belong in this paragraph?
9 A. When I provided the statement to the Mladic Defence team, I
10 stated that the biggest strongholds of Muslim forces were in the town
11 centre at Ljun in the area of Zivaljevina, Pokrivenik, and Vragolovi. As
12 for the villages of Ladjevina, Ferizovici, Pribosjevici, they had their
13 observers there. Those were Serbian villages and from there we got
14 messages about the movement of enemy forces, their strength, the location
15 of those forces. From there, we received intelligence from our
16 observers. I did not say that the strongholds of Muslim forces were in
17 those villages.
18 Q. Now, sir, apart from the corrections we've gone through today, do
19 you stand by everything else in your statement as accurate?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. If I were to ask you questions today on the same topics as in
22 your statements, would your answers to those questions be the same in
23 substance as in the statement?
24 A. In substance they would be the same.
25 Q. And having taken the solemn declaration to tell the truth, would
Page 29570
1 that mean that those answers, if you were to give them today, would be
2 truthful?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender 1D1765 as an exhibit.
5 There are two associated exhibits that go along with it, 1D03122 and
6 1D04364.
7 MR. MacDONALD: No objection, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
9 Mr. Ivetic, I'm just seeking -- first of all, you said there was
10 a translation issue and you invited the witness to read slowly. What was
11 then interpreted for us was the same, I think, as what we saw in the
12 translation.
13 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?
15 MR. IVETIC: One word is missing.
16 JUDGE ORIE: One word is missing and that was?
17 MR. IVETIC: Forces. There is a difference between a Muslim
18 stronghold and Muslim forces stronghold.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then -- yes. Muslim stronghold and the
20 strongholds of Muslim forces. Yes. That's clear to me.
21 Then as far as the associated exhibits are concerned, I'm just
22 checking the numbers. Yes.
23 Madam Registrar, the statement of the witness would receive
24 number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: 1D01765 receives exhibit number D849, Your
Page 29571
1 Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: D849 is admitted.
3 Then the two associated exhibits. The first one, I think in the
4 order as mentioned, 1D03122, would receive number?
5 THE REGISTRAR: D850, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
7 1D04364 would receive number?
8 THE REGISTRAR: D851, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D851 is admitted.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I have the public summary
12 that I'd like to read at this time.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do.
14 MR. IVETIC: Milovan Lelek worked for ten years in the Rogatica
15 municipal Territorial Defence until 1990. Thereafter, he worked as a
16 teacher in the elementary school in Sljedovici village, until early
17 March 1992 when Muslims set up roadblocks on the road leading to the
18 village.
19 Then with the situation in Rogatica becoming complex, he went to
20 his parents' village of Dobromirovci and stayed there until the end of
21 May. As early as March 1992, the Muslim population started leaving
22 Rogatica and he saw on a daily basis armed groups of Muslims travelling
23 from Rogatica towards Kopljevici and Pokrivnek.
24 He found out about a Green Beret paramilitary commanded by
25 Maher Muftic with a staff headquartered in one of Rogatica's mosques.
Page 29572
1 Both mosques in Rogatica were destroyed during armed fighting when the
2 town was under the control of Muslim forces.
3 The witness went to Borike at the invitation of the Territorial
4 Defence and joined the command there as a reserve captain first class.
5 He recalls Radio Sarajevo reports misreported the situation in
6 Rogatica to create a picture about wicked Serbs and victimised Muslims.
7 He recalls incidents where humanitarian convoys were found to
8 have ammunition in flour bags, sniper radios, and other military
9 hardware. Helicopters were often seen flying towards Zepa and it was
10 later learned these too carried military equipment.
11 And that completes the summary of the evidence. I have a few
12 additional questions.
13 Q. Sir --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, please proceed.
15 MR. IVETIC:
16 Q. Sir, were there Muslim villages in Rogatica that stayed loyal to
17 the Serb side?
18 A. There were several villages in Rogatica that remained loyal to
19 the Serb side: Zakomo, Berkovici, Burati, Satorovici, Okruglo, Strmac,
20 Madjar.
21 Q. What was the attitude of the Serb authorities in Rogatica to
22 these villages that stayed loyal?
23 A. The municipal civilian authorities regularly supplied these
24 villages with everything they needed to meet their basic needs and also
25 cattle feed, fuel, gasoline, crude oil, so that they could continue
Page 29573
1 working in agriculture. Muslim loyal villages continued to live together
2 with the neighbouring Serb villages, just as they did before the war.
3 There was no difference.
4 Q. And what eventually happened to these loyal Muslim villages in
5 Rogatica?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
7 microphones please be switched off while the witness is speaking. Thank
8 you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, we'll take the
10 example of the village of Satorovici. They lived a normal life with the
11 neighbouring Serb villages, and in that Muslim village General Asim
12 Hodzic lived at the time as well. They were receiving regular supplies
13 as I've already mentioned, and on one occasion on the road from Borike to
14 Rogatica, in that village Radenko Bjelakovic and his daughter Sonja were
15 ambushed and killed. Sonja's mother, his wife, survived, and these
16 terrorists, if I can call them that, these Muslims who had ambushed them
17 and who killed Radenko and Sonja told the mother, "Bitch, we're not going
18 to touch you. We're going to leave you alive so that you could suffer
19 for the rest of your life."
20 The relations between the Serb and Muslim population remained
21 good, so these inter-human relations were not disturbed to such an extent
22 by this incident. But Asim Hodzic once personally asked that somebody
23 come to his village because he noticed that near his village there were
24 armed persons that were noticed, one or two, and then from the brigade
25 command I think Commander Ranko Kusic went there, I can't remember who
Page 29574
1 went from the municipality to talk to the general, and then the general
2 asked to have the village searched to see whether somebody had planted
3 some weapons there. Then in some shed some weapons were found, a hunting
4 rifle and also a shorter rifle -- I don't know. And other things. Soon
5 after that, probably because of all of these things that had happened,
6 the general got sick and he asked to leave his village. We used our own
7 car to take the general to the border with Serbia and from there he was
8 taken to the military medical academy.
9 The population stayed on there for a little while but they were
10 afraid of Muslim extremists, they were afraid that they would be attacked
11 again, and that armed groups would come in, again. They asked the Serb
12 authorities, the civilian Serb authorities, they said that they wanted to
13 leave their place of residence and they took buses --
14 Q. Sir, we -- we do have some time limitations. I would ask if you
15 could somehow briefly summarise whether the loyal ethnic Muslim villages
16 that we discussed ended up staying in Rogatica or what happened to them.
17 A little bit more briefer than this description of the one village.
18 A. Well, these villages did not stay in Rogatica for a long time.
19 They were -- they asked our authorities for transportation. They wanted
20 to leave. They were afraid that the Muslims would threaten them because
21 they lived as good neighbours with the Serbs and they asked to leave
22 these villages. That was made possible for them, and they went to places
23 that were under the control of the BH Army.
24 Q. Okay. Sir, thank you --
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic, I don't think that the answer
Page 29575
1 responded to the question you have put. I thought you were asking about
2 the Muslim population in these villages and not about the Serbs, who were
3 then leaving.
4 Please clarify it.
5 MR. IVETIC: If I can have direction, Your Honours. I don't see
6 where his answer talks about Serbs leaving. His answer talks about the
7 Muslims leaving. Because they were good neighbours with the Serbs.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I see: "They wanted to leave. They were afraid
9 that the Muslims would threaten them..."
10 MR. IVETIC: Because -- [Overlapping speakers]
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: "... because they lived as good neighbours with
12 the Serbs..."
13 MR. IVETIC: Yes. So it relates to the Muslims.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. Then I understood it.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
16 Q. Perhaps just so that we're clear, you've heard the Judge's
17 inquiry, Mr. Lelek. Are you talking about the -- who are you talking
18 about that was leaving from these loyal Muslim villages that were afraid
19 that the -- that they would be attacked for being good neighbours with
20 the Serbs?
21 A. Well, that goes for all the loyal Muslim villages.
22 Q. Okay. And who -- what population within the loyal Muslim
23 villages was leaving? What ethnic group?
24 A. Well, of course they were Muslims. Muslims lived in Muslim
25 villages. These were loyal villages. So it was Muslims who were living
Page 29576
1 in these villages. But they were on good terms with the Serb villages
2 that were nearby, that were near those Muslim villages.
3 Q. Okay. Sir, thank you for answering my questions. On behalf of
4 my client General Mladic and the rest of the team, I thank you.
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that completes the direct examination.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
7 Before I invite the Prosecution to start its cross-examination, I
8 have one question.
9 Were those who had attacked General Hodzic and his daughter and
10 killed his daughter, were the perpetrators found and arrested?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Then you
12 misunderstood what I was saying. I did not say here that the general was
13 attacked and killed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think my question was about the daughter
15 having been killed. But then still, my question is: Were the
16 perpetrators found and arrested?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if you understand what
18 I'm saying. I said that Muslim extremists on the road between Rogatica
19 and Borike killed Radenko Bjelakovic and his daughter Sonja, and they --
20 and that they didn't want to kill her mother. They let her live so that
21 she would suffer for the rest of her life.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And my question is: What you said were Muslim
23 extremists, were they caught, were they identified?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never. They were never caught and
25 no one knows who did that.
Page 29577
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 Is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the witness.
3 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lelek, you'll now be cross-examined by
5 Mr. MacDonald. You find Mr. MacDonald to your right. Mr. MacDonald is
6 counsel for the Prosecution.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. MacDonald:
8 Q. Mr. Lelek, on the topic of this attack, you mentioned the name of
9 a village. Can you repeat the name of that village slowly, please.
10 A. I didn't understand you. What attack?
11 Q. You spoke with the Presiding Judge about an attack that killed a
12 father and daughter and left the mother alive. You mentioned the name of
13 a village with that attack. It was not recorded on the transcript. Can
14 you repeat the name of that village slowly, please.
15 A. Satorovici is the name of the village.
16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Lelek, you testified as a witness in the Karadzic
17 case; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You gave a statement to the Karadzic Defence, and you were
20 telling the truth when you gave that statement, weren't you?
21 A. Under oath, just like now.
22 Q. And with regard to the statement you gave in this case, the
23 Mladic case, you've had the opportunity to review it and make any
24 corrections for the entire statement; correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 29578
1 Q. I'd like to have a quick look at your Karadzic statement, sir.
2 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number
3 31469 on the screen, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be provided with a bit of ...
5 could the glass be filled again.
6 Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
7 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. I'd like to discuss the incorporation of the Rogatica Brigade
9 into the VRS. Now, in your Karadzic statement at paragraph 15 --
10 MR. MacDONALD: Which is page 4 in the English and page 3 in the
11 B/C/S.
12 Q. Now, here in the first line, you state:
13 "In May 1992, when the VRS was formed, the TO unit was reformed
14 into the 1st Drina Light Infantry Brigade, and we used the shorter term,
15 Rogatica Brigade, to referred to it."
16 Now what you said there in your Karadzic statement, that's --
17 that's true, isn't it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I'd now like to look at your Mladic statement, paragraph 14,
20 page 4 in the English and 4 in the B/C/S.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is D849.
22 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Now, just to repeat: Page 4 in both language, please.
24 Q. In the first line here, you state:
25 "After the VRS was established, the existing unit was transformed
Page 29579
1 over time into the 1st Drina Light Brigade, which was called the
2 Rogatica Brigade for short."
3 The existing unit you refer to here, that's the Rogatica Serb TO,
4 isn't it?
5 A. First it was the Territorial Defence, that's for sure.
6 Q. And, sir, the words "in May 1992," which you gave in your
7 Karadzic statement, don't appear in your Mladic statement. In fact,
8 you've added that it was transformed over time. What's the reason for
9 that change, sir?
10 A. I don't see any change here.
11 Q. Well, you'd agree with me the words "in May 1992" don't appear,
12 do they?
13 A. Well, I thought it wasn't necessary here for me to say May after
14 the establishment of the Army of Republika Srpska. And it is well-known
15 that the army was established in May, and therefore I saw no need to
16 mention it.
17 Q. Very well. You're happy that your Mladic statement means that
18 the TO unit, the Serb TO unit in Rogatica, became the Rogatica Brigade
19 when the VRS was established?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The Rogatica Brigade was subordinated to the
22 Sarajevo Romanija Corps in May 1992, wasn't it?
23 A. In May 1992, no, it wasn't under the Sarajevo Romanija Corps yet.
24 And not the Main Staff of the VRS either.
25 Q. Well, your commander is Rajko Kusic; that's right?
Page 29580
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. He's reporting to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps by at least the
3 29th of May, 1992, isn't he?
4 A. I know it wasn't at first, those first few days. When I arrived
5 Borike, I know that the first report that I saw that was written was the
6 23rd of May, 1992. Because we sent that document to the commander of the
7 TO of Sokolac and the Supreme Command of the Serb Republic of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina. We didn't sent it to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps or
9 the Main Staff. So I know at first in the beginning we didn't send those
10 combat reports there, Territorial Defence. Not the Sarajevo Romanija
11 Corps, not the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. I don't know
12 exactly when it was that we started sending them to them. I mean,
13 regular combat reports and other documents that are supposed to be sent
14 to them.
15 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have P03907.
16 Q. Sir, this is an intelligence report from Rajko Kusic to the
17 Sarajevo Romanija Corps. It is dated 29th May 1992. If you can just
18 read the date to whom it is being sent and who is sending it, you'll
19 agree with me that's correct; isn't it?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
21 witness. Could he please be asked to speak into the microphone.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please speak into the microphone
23 and repeat your answer.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, then I cannot see this thing
25 well. I mean, the letters are so small and then if I speak into the
Page 29581
1 microphone, I cannot read what is written here.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjust the microphone so that the problem will
3 be resolved.
4 And perhaps could it be even a bit enlarged, especially the upper
5 part.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. It can be seen here the
7 29th of May, 1992, a regular operations report sent to the
8 Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and what I claimed was that during the first few
9 days when I arrived there, that reports were sent to the
10 Territorial Defence, that we were not within the Sarajevo Romanija Corps
11 or the Army of Republika Srpska. During the first few day, that is.
12 MR. MacDONALD:
13 Q. When exactly did you arrive in Borike, Mr. Lelek?
14 A. I arrived Borike - I cannot remember the exact date - but it was
15 around the 18th, 19th, that's to say, the second half of May.
16 Q. If I can direct your attention to the last line of the document
17 in front of you, before it says Commander Rajko Kusic, he notes:
18 "Problems, proposals, and requests - as in previous report."
19 So it's clear that your commander has been reporting to the
20 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps even before the 29th of May; correct?
21 A. I don't know about that. I did not see those reports. I don't
22 know what kind of reports these are. I'm just saying that I saw one on
23 the 23rd of May that was submitted to the Territorial Defence of Sokolac.
24 The 23rd of May, 1992.
25 Q. Well, sir, I'll ask my original question again then: Do you
Page 29582
1 accept that the Rogatica Brigade was subordinated to the
2 Sarajevo Romanija Corps by at least the 29th of May, 1992, having seen
3 this document?
4 A. Well, according to this document, yes. According to this
5 document, yes, but I cannot remember exactly when --
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's note: We did not hear the
7 end of the sentence.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last part of your sentence.
9 You said but you cannot remember exactly when, and would you then repeat
10 what you then said?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember the exact date
12 when our brigade became part of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps. I see that
13 this regular combat report was indeed sent to the
14 Sarajevo Romanija Corps. I don't know whether our brigade was part of it
15 at the time.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I -- I fully understand that. But if you
17 say I don't know whether our brigade was part of it at that time, may I
18 remind you that in one of the previous answers you said it was not yet in
19 May; where now, you say you do not know exactly. You know about the
20 first days. And you accept that late May that they were. So you should
21 be very precise in your answers.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. MacDONALD:
24 Q. Mr. Lelek, you yourself were incorporated into the VRS on the
25 20th of May, 1992, weren't you?
Page 29583
1 A. I was. On the 20th of May, I was in the Army of
2 Republika Srpska. Actually, I was in the Territorial Defence, not the
3 Army of Republika Srpska. The Territorial Defence.
4 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have P06815.
5 Q. This is a list of officers from the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry
6 Brigade being sent by Rajko Kusic to the Drina Corps Command. For the
7 sake of clarity, the Rogatica Brigade was renamed to the Podrinje Brigade
8 in August of 1992, wasn't it?
9 A. I don't know. I don't remember the exact date.
10 Q. You may not remember the date but you do know that at some point
11 the Rogatica Brigade was renamed to the Podrinje Brigade; correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 MR. MacDONALD: If we go to page 3 in both languages -- I wonder,
14 Your Honours, if we might just use the B/C/S here. That's what we did
15 when the document was admitted. It's simply the headings that have to be
16 translated, and I'll ask the witness to confirm.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine.
18 MR. MacDONALD:
19 Q. Mr. Lelek, can you confirm you see your name appears second on
20 this list?
21 A. I see that.
22 MR. MacDONALD: And if we can move to the right, please. It's
23 the ninth column, but we'll recognise it by the date, 25/1992. Yes, if
24 we can stop there, please.
25 Q. Mr. Lelek, you see a date, 20.05.92 --
Page 29584
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What's the title of that column?
3 A. "Date of Joining the VRS." But most probably that's what the
4 form was like. There was no column that had date of joining the
5 Territorial Defence printed out.
6 Q. Okay. I'll move on. Mr. Lelek, when you joined you became
7 assistant commander for training and operations; correct?
8 A. I became assistant Chief of Staff for education, not assistant
9 commander. I was assistant Chief of Staff for training and operations.
10 That was the exact title of my position.
11 Q. Thank you for that clarification. You say in your Mladic
12 statement at paragraph 9 --
13 MR. MacDONALD: I don't believe we need to call it up, though.
14 Q. -- that after you arrive in Borike that part of the command went
15 to Rogatica, firstly to the Sladara facility. When did part of the
16 command move?
17 A. I can't remember the exact date when that happened. Perhaps a
18 month or two after I arrived they were moved to Sladara, but they came to
19 Borike as well. But they spent most of the time in Sladara which was the
20 new command post.
21 MR. MacDONALD: I have a few more questions on this topic,
22 Your Honour. Probably finish in three or four minutes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: If it's three or four minutes, I'll let you finish
24 this topic and then we'll take the break.
25 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
Page 29585
1 Q. Prior to the command moving, it remained in Borike; is that
2 correct?
3 A. A part of the command. Borike was the forward command post. I
4 was there as the assistant commander for training and operations, and
5 there were two or three other officers who assisted me. Most of the
6 command went to Rogatica, including the commander, the -- the chief of
7 staff for training, operations, the chief of staff. They went to
8 Rogatica and I remained in the forward command post in order to secure
9 the area and prevent Muslim forces attacks from the direction of Zepa.
10 Q. Prior to it moving, did your commander, Rajko Kusic, and the
11 Chief of Staff, Mile Ujic, did they remain in Borike prior to the command
12 moving to Rogatica?
13 A. They were in Borike until the moment the command was moved to
14 Rogatica. Obviously they were in Borika. Of course.
15 Q. Rajko Kusic and Mile Ujic met General Ratko Mladic on the 30th of
16 May, 1992, didn't they?
17 A. I don't know that.
18 Q. Well, on the 30th of May, 1992, they're in Borike, you're in
19 Borike, and you're an assistant chief in this brigade. How is it you
20 don't know what your commander and the chief of staff are doing,
21 particularly when they are meeting the commander of the entire VRS?
22 A. I must have been on the defence line at that time. Perhaps I was
23 not there. I was not at the command post. I was on the line where I
24 inspected the troops who were there. And the brigade commander was not
25 duty-bound to tell me everything. He had his chief of staff, and unless
Page 29586
1 the entire command of the brigade had to be present, he did not have to
2 tell me. I'm sure that whatever was discussed was not of such an
3 importance that the whole command staff had to be there.
4 MR. MacDONALD: This will be my last question before the break,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But your answers -- -- you say you didn't
7 know. No one told you when you returned from the front line that
8 General Mladic had visited the command?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand your question.
10 JUDGE ORIE: The question is: Whether no one, when you returned
11 from the front line, told you that General Mladic had visited the command
12 and had met with Kusic and his chief of staff.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody told me that at the time.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 We'll take a break. Could the witness be escorted out of the
16 courtroom.
17 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at five minutes to 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to enter the
23 courtroom, I briefly deal with P6965 which was admitted on the 2nd of
24 December through Witness Ratko Milojica, transcript page 29130. During
25 the re-examination of the witness, the Defence raised an issue with the
Page 29587
1 English translation of the document. On the 4th of December, the
2 Prosecution did send an e-mail to the Chamber to advise that the revised
3 English translation of P6965 had been uploaded into e-court under
4 doc ID 0206-3526-ET, and that the Defence had indicated that it had no
5 objection to it.
6 Madam Registrar, you're hereby instructed to replace the current
7 translation of P6965 with the revised one with the doc ID I just read
8 out; that is, 0206-3526-ET.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ORIE: As always I take it that when the Prosecution
11 reports that there are no objections by the Defence that there are no
12 objections. If there be would, however, any problem, we'd like to hear
13 within the next 48 hours.
14 Mr. MacDonald, you may proceed.
15 MR. MacDONALD: Before I restart my questioning, Your Honours,
16 just one matter from before the break. The basis of the question that
17 General Mladic met with the chief of staff and deputy chief of staff
18 comes from General Mladic's diary. There is no location recorded for
19 that meeting, Your Honour. I just wanted to put that on the record.
20 MR. IVETIC: There are also two other documents referencing that
21 General Mladic met with General Wahlgren and Colonel Wilson, that's P332
22 and 65 ter number 10624, so the Defence's position: It was not in
23 Rogatica.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Positions are clear. Please proceed.
25 MR. MacDONALD:
Page 29588
1 Q. Mr. Lelek, before I move on from this topic, you mentioned a
2 report being sent by Rajko Kusic to the Sokolac TO and the
3 Supreme Command of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 23rd of
4 May, 1992. Do you know by the words "Supreme Command of Republic of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina" who Rajko Kusic was sending that report to?
6 A. To the Supreme Command of the Army of the Serbian Republic of
7 Bosnia and Herzegovina, I think. I believe that it was sent to
8 Mr. Karadzic.
9 Q. Now, finally, I'd like to look at your Mladic statement, D849.
10 MR. MacDONALD: I would like to go to page 3 in both languages.
11 Q. In your first line you describe reporting in late May 1992. You
12 describe what you did until 1994. And in your last line, you state --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Of which paragraph?
14 MR. MacDONALD: Paragraph 8, Your Honour. Thank you.
15 Q. In your last line, you state:
16 "I know that in the initial period at that time we were in no
17 manner connected to the corps or the VRS Main Staff."
18 Given your evidence today, for the sake of clarity, that initial
19 period must be no more than a few days; is that right?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. I'll move to a different topic. If we can please have your
22 Karadzic statement on the screen.
23 MR. MacDONALD: That's 65 ter number 31469. And if I can have
24 paragraph 13 in both languages.
25 Q. Sir, paragraph 13 reads:
Page 29589
1 "All this time we maintained courier, telephone, and radio
2 contact with the main part of the command in Rogatica, and we sent daily
3 combat reports on the developments in this area. At the beginning of
4 1994, I and the other officers with me in Borike were pulled back to
5 Rogatica, where I was appointed Chief of Staff of the brigade."
6 Now by the words "all this time," you're referring to a period
7 from the end of May 1992 until your appointment as chief of staff;
8 correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what you say here in your Karadzic statement, that's true,
11 isn't it, you did have these communications?
12 A. You mean with the brigade command in Rogatica?
13 Q. I mean, sir -- or the question is: What I've just read you, that
14 is true, isn't it?
15 A. We, in Borike, could communicate with Rogatica.
16 Q. And you also sent daily combat reports about developments in the
17 area, didn't you?
18 A. I'm not sure that it was daily, but we did send reports,
19 especially on special events. If nothing happened on a particular day,
20 on that day we did not send a report.
21 Q. Well, sir, in your Karadzic statement it said you sent daily
22 combat reports. Is that true?
23 A. If that's what I said, then it must be true.
24 Q. What I read to you from your Karadzic statement, the entirety of
25 paragraph 13, none of that appears in your Mladic statement, sir. Is
Page 29590
1 there any reason you did not mention these communications and these daily
2 combat reports to the Mladic Defence team?
3 A. I don't think that there was a need for that. It's a well-known
4 fact that combat reports were sent. We received combat reports from
5 battalion commands. Then we amalgamated them into one report and sent
6 that to our superior command. I did not think that it was necessary to
7 emphasise that in my statement for the general.
8 Q. So your evidence is that it's a well-known fact that combat
9 reports were sent. Is it equally a well-known fact that communications
10 were working and that you had these communications?
11 MR. IVETIC: I object to the question. It's vague as stated.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me re-read it.
13 MR. IVETIC: Communications with whom?
14 JUDGE ORIE: As well -- with ...
15 MR. IVETIC: Yeah.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well-known facts, Mr. MacDonald, are not the type of
17 facts we are seeking, we are always seeking. So would be please be more
18 concrete.
19 Yes, I know that the witness said that it's a well-known fact,
20 but I've heard many witnesses say what are well-known facts. Could you
21 please try to focus specifically on what the witness can tell us. So
22 would you rephrase your question.
23 MR. MacDONALD:
24 Q. Mr. Lelek, it isn't the case that you did not mention this
25 paragraph because you knew you were testifying on behalf or in the case
Page 29591
1 against General Mladic, is it?
2 MR. IVETIC: Object to the question. On the bases that: First
3 of all, it misstates the witness's testimony and is not a restatement, as
4 Your Honours had indicated of the previous question. It's unrelated to
5 the previous question and it's --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I thought it was a new question.
7 MR. IVETIC: Yeah --
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- that Mr. MacDonald was putting to the witness.
9 Mr. MacDonald, it was not a rephrasement. I mean, if you
10 withdraw a question, that's -- Mr. MacDonald is entitled to do so and put
11 a new question to the witness, so that objection is denied.
12 Would you please put the same or another question to the witness.
13 MR. MacDONALD: Your Honours, to be clear, that's -- the last
14 question it is where I am going with this line of questioning, as it
15 were. So perhaps I can just put that to him.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please then put it again to the witness because he
17 may have forgotten what the question exactly was.
18 MR. MacDONALD:
19 Q. Mr. Lelek, is it the case that you did not mention the fact of
20 daily combat reports and communications working within your brigade
21 because you were aware that this case is against General Mladic?
22 A. No, not true. If this was not the General Mladic case, you would
23 not put that question as well perhaps. Because this is a well-known
24 fact --
25 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is speaking too fast. It is
Page 29592
1 impossible to interpret correctly.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, Witness, you're talking too fast.
3 We'll lose your words which we'd rather not do. So could you please
4 resume from where you said:
5 "Because this is a well-known fact ..."
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to start his
7 answer from the beginning because it was impossible to understand the
8 gist of the answer.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're invited even to start the answer again
10 on from the beginning. The question was about that you had not mentioned
11 this because you gave a statement in the case against Mr. Mladic. Would
12 you please start your answer again.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as this question is
14 concerned, it is not correct that I omitted the question. I did not omit
15 it. Especially not because I'm testifying in the Mladic case, because I
16 thought that that question was a well-known question. It is a well-known
17 fact that regular combat reports are sent by the battalion commands to
18 the brigade command, and that then the brigade command sends its regular
19 combat reports to the superior command which is the corps command.
20 That's why I did not feel the need to highlight this question in my
21 statement, not only because it was the General Mladic case. Even if a
22 case was against some other general or colonel, I would still not mention
23 this question at all.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So there's no change whatsoever so that daily
25 reports were sent and communications were functioning, although you
Page 29593
1 didn't think it important to mention it again. Is that the situation?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. MacDONALD: Can we move to paragraph 15 of the statement. I
5 think I need page 4 in both languages.
6 Q. I'm going to read you a sentence, Mr. Lelek.
7 MR. MacDONALD: In B/C/S, I believe it begins with the word
8 "naoruzani" and in English it is six lines from the bottom, beginning:
9 "We were armed ..."
10 Q. It reads:
11 "We were armed with weapons of the former Rogatica TO that had
12 until then been kept in the JNA depots in Uzamnica and Visegrad."
13 And it's true that you were armed with weapons that were
14 previously in the JNA depots in Uzamnica and Visegrad; correct?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours. This has been referenced as the
17 Karadzic statement. However, I just now realised that the translation
18 that's being used is not the official translation, it's a draft
19 translation, not the one that was introduced into evidence which I see
20 and hold in my hand is a CLSS translation and which has different page
21 numbers. So I just wanted to make clear that the document that's being
22 used by the Prosecution is not the Karadzic statement that was introduced
23 into evidence in the Karadzic case.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now let me just ... paragraph 15 of this
25 statement. Which statement were you referring to?
Page 29594
1 MR. MacDONALD: The Karadzic statement, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Karadzic statement. Yes. Which is on the screen.
3 And, Mr. Ivetic, you said it's the wrong translation used or?
4 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honour. I see on the screen it
5 says "draft translation." The official translation done by CLSS is
6 page 3 and this is page 4, so --
7 JUDGE ORIE: But which one was admitted in the Karadzic case, the
8 official translation.
9 MR. IVETIC: This one. That's what I'm holding in my hand. It's
10 in e-court as 1D04363.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald, I do not know where you found this
12 translation and why you used that rather than the one which was admitted
13 in the Karadzic case, but I don't know how important and how relevant the
14 differences in translation are, but ...
15 Do you have the -- the one, Mr. Ivetic is referring to? That
16 translation.
17 MR. MacDONALD: I am certain it can be called up, Your Honours.
18 I had understood this one to be the one in the Karadzic case.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But apparently it's not.
20 MR. MacDONALD: But apparently it's not. I wonder if we could
21 call up in e-court that I missed there or my friend has referred to.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that can be shown on the screen, then we
23 can move on. And if it's -- is it just page numbering or is there any
24 difference in the translation, Mr. Ivetic?
25 MR. IVETIC: I haven't had a chance to look at the translations
Page 29595
1 in detail to compare the two, but I know this the one that was introduced
2 into evidence and this is -- and is indeed that we put in e-court. It
3 should on page 3 in the English that this paragraph is located.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It is paragraph 15, I do understand.
5 Mr. MacDonald, you have prepared your questions so I take it that
6 in your glance you could -- would be able to see whether anything there's
7 which --
8 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers].
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- would bother you having used a different
10 translation while preparing.
11 MR. MacDONALD: It is the same certainly in English,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please move on --
14 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- with this -- with your questions in relation to
16 paragraph 15.
17 MR. MacDONALD:
18 Q. I'm going to read you out this sentence, Mr. Lelek.
19 MR. MacDONALD: As I said previously, in the B/C/S I believe it's
20 the line beginning "naoruzani."
21 Q. And it reads:
22 "We were armed with weapons of the former Rogatica TO that had
23 until then been kept in the JNA depots in Uzamnica and Visegrad."
24 And my question is: It's true that you were armed with weapons
25 that had been kept previously in those JNA depots, isn't it.
Page 29596
1 A. It is not construct in Uzamnica and Visegrad. What is correct --
2 what is correct is Visegrad. Here it says Uzamnica near Visegrad. So
3 these are two different things. It is not Uzamnica and Visegrad but
4 Uzamnica is close to Visegrad.
5 Q. Okay. So there's a JNA depot at Uzamnica which is near Visegrad.
6 Again, were you armed with weapons of the former Rogatica TO that had
7 until then been kept in that depot?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, in the next line, you say you're unaware that the JNA armed
10 Serbs in Rogatica. If we could have your Mladic statement, please.
11 MR. MacDONALD: Which is D849, at -- I would look for
12 paragraph 14, which is page 4 in both languages.
13 Q. The last line in this paragraph is similar, that you were unaware
14 that the JNA armed the Serbs in Rogatica. However, the part about being
15 armed with weapons that had until then been kept in a JNA depot does not
16 appear. Why did you not mention that to the Mladic Defence team?
17 A. I made a mistake by omitting it. It's just an error because I
18 said everything else here.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness is reading
20 very fast. We don't know from where.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, again, you should slow down,
22 especially when you're reading. You said it was an error because
23 everything else here, and then you started reading what is in the
24 document which also appears in the Mladic statement. Is that correctly
25 understood?
Page 29597
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is written here is that I do
2 not know that the JNA armed Serbs in Rogatica, because our pre-war
3 Territorial Defence of Rogatica had standard-issue weapons for over
4 500 -- actually, 1500 persons. So the only thing I omitted here is that
5 these weapons of ours were kept in Uzamnica near Visegrad. That's the
6 only thing that I omitted to mention. Everything else is there and
7 everything else is correct except for Uzamnica near Visegrad. So I just
8 made an error in not mentioning Uzamnica near Visegrad, that our weapons
9 were kept there.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there's a little bit more. But could I ask
11 you a few questions about that statement taking.
12 The text, indeed, if I quickly look at it from your Karadzic
13 statement and the Mladic statement, is almost literally the same. You
14 said you made a mistake when you did not mention this specific -- the JNA
15 depots. Did you work on the basis of your Karadzic statement when you
16 were interviewed?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That statement was mentioned to me.
18 I tried to say everything I said there over here as well, but then this
19 error slipped in, that I didn't mention Uzamnica near Visegrad, and it is
20 well-known that in 1991 when the army came and --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you are going beyond what I asked you.
22 Now you said -- does it mean that you gave that statement
23 spontaneously when it was mentioned, or was it shown to you, that old
24 statement?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, no, I had the statement. I had
Page 29598
1 the statement and I read it several times. After the lawyers -- or
2 rather, before the lawyers from General Ratko Mladic's Defence came, and
3 I tried to avoid any differences between the two but then things slip in.
4 But I really don't see that there's any problem here. I mean, that I
5 didn't mention Uzamnica.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to worry about whether there are any
7 problems.
8 Earlier you said when we were talking about the daily reports
9 that you considered it not of such importance that you should repeat it
10 where it was commonly known that daily reports were sent.
11 Now, there again we see that the two statements are very similar
12 in language but there is a difference.
13 Now, who then decided that it was not important to repeat that?
14 Did you do that or was this suggested by those who interviewed you, that
15 it was not important? Could you tell us?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I decided that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You decided that. Was it your own idea that
18 it was not important? You suggested that and then decided that, or was
19 it suggested to you and that you then decided to leave it out?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We have trouble hearing
21 the witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you re-start your answer and talk
23 more slowly so that the interpreters can tell us your words.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could all other microphones be switched off
25 when the witness is speaking. Thank you.
Page 29599
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought - and that's what I
2 suggested - that it wasn't really that important to have this included in
3 the statement, the sending of combat reports, because I thought that this
4 was well known, that combat reports are being sent, so that that was not
5 necessary.
6 As for this thing here, Uzamnica, I forgot to mention that --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness -- well, apparently you were working on the
8 basis of the old statement, and then you made a suggestion that -- that
9 portion about the daily reports could be left out because you considered
10 it not to be important. That was your own suggestion. Is that well
11 understood?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Now, apparently you have thought over quite
14 carefully what was needed to be repeated and what was not needed to be
15 repeated. Now, in relation to the JNA depots from where the TO
16 received -- the depots kept by the JNA, was that similarly that you
17 thought that there was no need to tell that, or was it suggested to you
18 or is it just -- just a mistake?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a mistake. I forgot to
20 mention this place, Uzamnica.
21 JUDGE ORIE: But you worked on the basis of the old statement.
22 The remainder of that paragraph is literally the same - almost literally
23 the same, I should say - as we find it in the old statement. If you're
24 working like that, does that mean that you repeated every sentence of
25 that old statement and that it was then recorded again as what you said
Page 29600
1 then, or did you go through it and say, This should be changed, that is
2 relevant, this is not relevant? Could you explain to us a bit more in
3 detail how that worked and specifically on the part you said you'd
4 forgotten.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We worked on the basis of the old
6 statement, and I made an effort to say everything I said in
7 President Karadzic's statement, because I spoke under oath then as well.
8 I wanted it to be similar to the statement I'm giving to General Mladic.
9 So everything is the same here expect for Uzamnica, that was not
10 mentioned. That was an error. When I spoke for this statement to be
11 written up, I simply forgot this.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now no one told you, since we're working
13 on the basis of the old statement, haven't you forgotten something?
14 Because there's a line in the old statement which you didn't repeat. Did
15 no one bring this to your attention, that just a line was missing?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, nobody. They probably didn't
17 notice it then either.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
20 MR. MacDONALD: Can we move to paragraph 19 in the Karadzic
21 statement, please, which I think is the next page in both languages.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Paragraph 19, Mr. Court Officer.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see any of this. Can it be
24 enlarged a bit?
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The beginning of paragraph 19 or the end?
Page 29601
1 Because it's not identical at the moment on the screen.
2 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour, and that's my fault. Sorry.
3 It should be the beginning of paragraph 19, so the previous page in the
4 English, please.
5 Thank you.
6 Q. Mr. Lelek, the first line here reads:
7 "I knew that there was a military detention facility was in
8 Rasadnik."
9 Now what you've said here in your Karadzic statement, that's
10 true, isn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. MacDONALD: If we can move to the Mladic statement, please.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: D849.
14 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 It's paragraph 17 which I think is page 5 in the English, page 4
16 in the B/C/S.
17 Q. The first line here, sir, reads:
18 "I am aware that a detention facility existed at Rasadnik ..."
19 Now the word "military" has been removed here, hasn't it?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: I'm trying to see where the word "military" arises.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That's in the Karadzic statement? Could we have
23 that -- we just had it but it's not visible at this moment.
24 Could you repeat the number so that I can -- because we, of
25 course, can consult it also on our own system. Could you repeat the
Page 29602
1 number, Mr. --
2 MR. MacDONALD: Well, the number of the Karadzic statement is
3 1D04363.
4 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
5 MR. MacDONALD: And it's paragraph 19, the first line,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we have a look at it because my legal
8 page is not on my computer at this moment, so I have some difficulties in
9 having access to it, but ...
10 MR. MacDONALD: And one page back in the English. It is the
11 first line of paragraph 19.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you see it?
13 MR. IVETIC: Yes, very well.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The description is military detention facility or
15 detention facility.
16 MR. IVETIC: Correct. I was looking at the English of the --
17 what I thought was the Karadzic but was actually the Mladic that was on
18 the screen, so I was --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
20 MR. IVETIC: -- mistaken between the two.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I think there is no translation issue
22 here. I see the word "vojni" in the B/C/S first sentence.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. MacDONALD: If we can go back to the Mladic statement, that's
25 D849, page 5 in the English, page 4 in the B/C/S.
Page 29603
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You may put your question because everybody has
2 seen it and the witness has the hard copy in his hands.
3 MR. MacDONALD: I thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Lelek, the word "military" which appears in the Karadzic
5 statement has been taken out of the Mladic statement, hasn't it?
6 A. That's right. The word "military" is not there. But further
7 down you can see that soldiers were being detained. It even says
8 soldiers of Serb ethnicity. So I believe that this is an error. Since
9 there's a war going on, of course it's military. I cannot see what the
10 issue is.
11 Could you just enlarge this a bit up here because I cannot see it
12 properly?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you've answered the question.
14 Mr. MacDonald will now put his next question to you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And we are, at the moment, not on the Mladic
16 statement but the Karadzic statement again. But I think you should move
17 on.
18 MR. MacDONALD:
19 Q. Mr. Lelek, I'm going to put to you that in fact these changes or
20 omissions to your Mladic statement are an effort to minimise the
21 involvement of the VRS and the accused in this case in the events in the
22 municipality of Rogatica. Do you have any comment on that, sir?
23 A. That is not true.
24 Q. I'll turn to the topic of Rasadnik and the situation there.
25 In your statement you say you visited Rasadnik and you saw some
Page 29604
1 people there; that's correct, isn't it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You gave an interview to the police in Rogatica on the 17th of
4 June, 2004; is that correct?
5 A. I cannot remember the exact date. Could I have that document
6 here now, if you have it? I don't have the exact date when it was that I
7 was interviewed. Could I have that document on the screen?
8 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number
9 31403.
10 Q. Now, this is a record of that interview, Mr. Lelek. I'm going to
11 read a part out for you.
12 MR. MacDONALD: In the B/C/S, it begins in the middle of the
13 paragraph just after the letters BPC. In the English, it is at the top
14 of page 2.
15 MR. IVETIC: If I can intervene, I note that the -- my learned
16 friend is being misled by the incorrect translation of the title of the
17 document which is, in B/C/S, "Sluzbena Zabiljeska," "Official Note" not
18 "Official Record."
19 MR. MacDONALD: I'm very grateful to my friend for his
20 clarification, although I don't think it will affect my
21 cross-examination, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed. And take care that the right
23 translation will be uploaded.
24 MR. MacDONALD:
25 Q. Mr. Lelek, the sentence reads:
Page 29605
1 "He also did not know anything about the activities of
2 establishing collection centres in the territory of the municipality of
3 Rogatica (Sladara, Rasadnik, Parohijski Dom, elementary school and
4 secondary school) before he came to Borike in 1992 where the FCP (forward
5 command post) of the Rogatica Brigade was located in the hotel. He heard
6 from some persons he did not know that there were collection centres in
7 the town area, in the above-mentioned facilities, where citizens of
8 Bosniak nationality were kept and from where they were later transported
9 by buses to the territory under the Army of BiH control.
10 "He also said that did he not know that the persons in the
11 collection centres were mistreated or tortured in any way. During the
12 time the above-mentioned centres existed, he did not come into the areas
13 where they were located."
14 Mr. Lelek, was that the truth that you told the police, that you
15 did not come into the areas where these centres, which include Rasadnik,
16 were located?
17 A. I don't remember the exact date, but I see the date here when I
18 gave this statement. It wasn't a statement. It was an Official Note by
19 an official at the Ministry of Interior. The duration of this short
20 statement that I gave to him, he asked four or five questions, he asked
21 me whether I knew when the Crisis Staffs were established and I said I
22 don't know, then he asked me: Do you know that there were collection
23 centres, and then I said I heard about that when I arrived in Borike.
24 Then do you know about these supplies, and I said, no, I never entered
25 these facilities. So when he asked me whether I knew there was torture,
Page 29606
1 whether people at the collection centres were being abused, and I said I
2 don't know, I never entered these facilities.
3 This went on for four or five minutes. He compiled an
4 Official Note. Beforehand, I never had an opportunity to read this until
5 the trial of President Radovan Karadzic. And everything that is written
6 here is not the way I had said it. He added --
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand what.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, again the interpreters are unable
10 to hear you. So would you please slowly conclude your answer.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When this employee of the Ministry
12 of Interior, from Rogatica, asked me whether I knew that there were some
13 torture over persons who were in collection centres, I said that I did
14 not know because I did not enter these facilities, these centres.
15 I see that what he wrote here is that I had stated that I did not
16 go to the area of these locations.
17 Let me tell you one more thing. You see here that --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, wait for the next question.
19 Please proceed.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But then -- Mr. Orie, it has to do
21 with this --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I have to clarify why this note
24 is not meritorious for me.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The only question that was put to you is whether, in
Page 29607
1 the relation to specifically entering those facilities, whether you told
2 them the truth or not. And I think you've told us now two or three times
3 that when asked about awareness of persons being tortured there, that you
4 were not aware because you never entered those facilities. And in that
5 respect, you've answered the question. Mr. MacDonald will now put his
6 next question to you.
7 Mr. MacDonald.
8 MR. MacDONALD:
9 Q. I'd like to move onto the substance of Rasadnik --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, before we do so, you said several times that
11 you did not -- that you told them that you had not entered these
12 facilities, whereas in your statement we read that you visited persons
13 detained in Rasadnik several times. There seems to be a contradiction.
14 Do you have an explanation for that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I did not enter those
16 facilities, but I did come to the location of these facilities; that is
17 to say, I came to Rasadnik where the military detention facility was but
18 I did not go in. If I needed one of our soldiers who had escaped from
19 the front line or who had done something, I asked the security detail
20 there to get that soldier out for me, but I did not enter the detention
21 facility itself. Also the collection centres, I never entered them in
22 Rasadnik or in the secondary school.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Just then for my understanding, those who were
24 detained there and you wanted to interview, they were taken out, outside
25 the building, and then you interviewed them in the open air or -- I'm
Page 29608
1 just trying to understand exactly what it is that you're telling us.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. For example, if NN left the
3 front line arbitrarily and I know that is he in the military remand
4 prison, I would get there and I would ask the guard, Get NN to come out
5 in front of the prison. And there was a table there, and I sat there and
6 I talked to him about what it was that I wanted to talk about.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And did they also bring the Muslims you saw
8 there out of the building and to be seated at that table? Because you
9 say that, I also saw some Muslims whom I knew from before, talking about
10 Rasadnik. Were they also taken out?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I went there, I saw two or
12 three Muslims that I knew walking around. I, however, spoke to the
13 Serbian soldier. I never spoke to any of the Muslim soldiers.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But I do understand that this was a detention
15 facility. Were the Muslim detainees walking freely outside of the
16 building? I'm just trying to get a picture of what exactly was the
17 situation when you saw these Muslims.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can give you an example.
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I went there to hold that
21 conversation with a -- go ahead. I don't know what I need to do.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if -- if the example you are giving me is an
23 answer to my question, you are invited to proceed.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is an answer to your
25 question.
Page 29609
1 When I went there to interview one of our soldiers who had left
2 the defence line, while I was sitting there, very close to me, some 5, 6,
3 metres away from me, Sefik Murko was passing by. He had been captured
4 and he was in that detention area. He passed by me, I saw him, I knew
5 him from before. I called his name, he approached me. I asked him if he
6 needed something, and then he said, Mico, that was my nickname, do you
7 have cigarettes. I would like to light a cigarette. And I would like to
8 ask you, my mother has already left together with the other civilians.
9 Can you help my father as well. I told him I'll do whatever I can. You
10 just talk to me. That was the conversation I held. He was just
11 strolling around the detention facility.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lelek, a minute ago you said:
13 "I never spoke to any of the Muslim soldiers."
14 And now you are telling us that you spoke to this specific
15 Muslim, Sefik Malko. Which one is correct?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I did not investigate
17 any of them because that was not my duty. I did not try to find out why
18 they were in prison, why they had been captured. I knew this particular
19 person. I called his name, and I gave him cigarettes. I just treated
20 him to cigarettes. That's all. He was my neighbour. I knew him from
21 before. In my previous answer, I meant any of the Muslim soldiers who
22 needed to be interviewed and investigated. That was not my duty. That's
23 why I never talked to any of them.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But this is not what you said. You said, I never
25 spoke to a Muslim soldier. I leave it to that.
Page 29610
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
2 MR. MacDONALD: I see we have one minute until the break,
3 Your Honour. I don't know if you wish to --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't know what you are able to perform in
5 one minute, but if you think it's better to wait until after the break,
6 then we'll follow your suggestion.
7 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes; quarter past
8 12.00. You may follow the usher.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Any time indication, Mr. MacDonald?
11 MR. MacDONALD: I would estimate between 20 and 30 minutes,
12 Your Honours. Hopefully 20.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me ...
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then you stay within your time-limits.
16 We'll resume at quarter past 12.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 12.15 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted
20 into the courtroom, I think that we had P6926 as a leftover. New
21 translation as well? I ...
22 Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. President. We have received a revised
24 English translation for 6926. I can address that now quickly on the
25 record.
Page 29611
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you do it quickly, then...
2 MR. TIEGER: As the Court will recall, that document was admitted
3 through Witness Sarenac on 18th November 2014, and that can be found at
4 T 28514 through -17. A translation error was brought to our attention,
5 and you can see that reflected in 28544 through -45, on the 19th of
6 November, 2014. So the revised translation has been uploaded into the
7 e-court. It can be found under doc ID 0202-9875-ET.
8 Assuming that if -- we have not spoken with the Defence about
9 this yet, but if they have no objection to the revised translation, we
10 would request that the Court Officer be instructed to replace the current
11 translation with it.
12 Thank you, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We usually give an opportunity to revisit the matter
14 within 48 hours.
15 Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to replace the English
16 declaration attached to P6926 by a new translation which is known under
17 number 0202-9875-ET.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald, you may proceed.
20 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Lelek, Muslim civilians who had not committed any crimes were
22 detained in Rasadnik, weren't they?
23 A. No, they were not. The civilians who had not committed crimes
24 were not detained. They were just accommodated there. They were not
25 kept there in detention.
Page 29612
1 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have P06804.
2 Q. Mr. Lelek, this is a list from the Drina Corps Command dated
3 1st of February, 1993.
4 You'll see in the line above the list that the Drina Corps
5 command are describing these people as prisoners. Do you see that, sir?
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should say "prisoners of war."
7 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution does not
8 accept they're prisoner of war, but it was the prisoners that I was --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, but, if you put a document to a witness, you
10 can't say, I disagree with part of that and therefore I read only part of
11 that. Mr. MacDonald, you are drawing the attention of the witness to
12 what is found in this document, and then you should read it in its
13 entirety.
14 Witness, could you please answer the question, whether you see
15 that the persons on this list are referred to as prisoners of war?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that that's what it says
17 here. But this is perhaps because of the exchange. Civilians could not
18 be exchanged. Civilians could go of their own free will to the territory
19 under the control of the BiH Army. This is most probably due to the fact
20 that they needed to be exchanged. That's why they were referred to as
21 prisoners of war. These were people were not prisoners of war. I can
22 see that there were civilians among them. I'm sure this is about some
23 exchange.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, where do you see the word "exchange"
25 in this document?
Page 29613
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's my assumption because the
2 civilians who were here have been --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me interrupt you. You're not being asked
4 about assumptions. You're being asked about facts on this document,
5 okay? You're not asked to interpret the document. You're asked to see
6 what the document says. I'm done.
7 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. If I can you take to number 4, Hanua Kustura. The date of birth
9 recorded here is 1892. So she would have been 101 at the time this list
10 was made; correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And you'll see her address as recorded as Jasenica next to year
13 of birth?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have P06085S -- 6805,
16 my apologies. 6085 -- 6805, sorry.
17 Q. This is a Drina Corps command sending a list to the
18 Eastern Bosnian command dated 10th of April, 1993.
19 And, at number 4, we see someone recorded as Hanuma Kustura but
20 with date of birth 1892 and the village given as Jasenica, don't we?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And this time this list is being described as a list of captured
23 persons of Muslim ethnicity.
24 A. I still claim that this list contains a lot of civilians. They
25 had not been captured. My assumption is that there was going to be an
Page 29614
1 exchange which is why they included civilians into the list. I claim
2 with full responsibility that this Hanuma Kustura was a civilian who
3 was --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think in view of the age there could hardly
5 be a lot of dispute about this to be not a soldier. But assumptions is
6 not what we are seeking. If you have any knowledge -- and what
7 Mr. MacDonald has done is to put to you a list dated the 1st of February,
8 1993, and then another list, 10th of April, so apparently no exchange had
9 taken place. If that would be the explanation, the person still was
10 there, five, six weeks later.
11 Please proceed.
12 At least as recorded in this document. And that's what
13 Mr. MacDonald, I think, wants to bring to your attention.
14 Mr. MacDonald.
15 MR. MacDONALD: Can we please now move to P06722.
16 Q. This is a report on a prisoner exchange from October 1994.
17 MR. MacDONALD: And I'd look for page 3 in the B/C/S, page 4 in
18 the English. And I'm looking for number 11 on the list.
19 Q. And I'm correct that this report states:
20 "According to the Serbian side, she died at the age of 101 while
21 in Rogatica-Rasadnik prison?"
22 A. I don't know who drafted this report. It is possible that she
23 died in June in the reception centre. She did not die in prison. It is
24 quite possible that she died, she was 101 years old, but she probably
25 died in the reception centre, not in -- in prison. There were cases of
Page 29615
1 people of Serbian ethnicity who were dying of old age as well --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, first of all, you were not asked
3 about any persons of Serbian ethnicity. Do you have any specific
4 knowledge that she died anywhere else than in Rasadnik?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no other knowledge. The
6 only thing I claim is this: If she died, she died in the reception
7 centre.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you have no knowledge about it, you told
9 us, unless you mean to refer to Rasadnik as a reception centre. Is that
10 what you are telling us?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rasadnik was both a detention
12 centre and a reception centre. It was reception centre for civilians and
13 elderly people, and it was a detention centre for soldiers.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you do not know where she died. And none
15 of the documents is talking about a reception centre, but all the
16 documents shown to you are talking about prisoners and about prison. Any
17 comment on that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who drafted this
19 document. This is my comment. Nobody from our command drafted this
20 document. I'm sure. And nobody from our command would have called
21 this --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The authors of the documents did.
23 Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
24 MR. MacDONALD: Can we now move to P06806.
25 Q. Now, Mr. Lelek, this is an exhumation report from the
Page 29616
1 municipality of Rogatica carried out by the cantonal court of Sarajevo
2 dated 4 November 1998.
3 MR. MacDONALD: I'd look for page 9 in the English, page 7 in the
4 B/C/S.
5 Q. And the name at number 11, Hanka Kustura. The heading of this
6 section, sir, is "Rasadnik (Rogatica)."
7 Now, sir --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, the last time this document was used,
10 and I believe it was Ms. Bibles who was using it, you invited that I
11 could check the co-ordinates on Google. I did. The co-ordinates that I
12 came up with in Google by plugging in these numbers do not arrive in
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honours, there was discussion on this
15 document. You can find it at T-26414 to 26416. And I believe
16 Your Honour, the Presiding Judge, requested the Prosecution to discover
17 if there had been an autopsy. We have not found an autopsy report on
18 this -- on this person, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Any comment on the co-ordinates which put this
20 person, perhaps other persons as well, I've not looked at it yet, outside
21 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
22 MR. MacDONALD: I have no -- no comment upon that at the moment,
23 Your Honours. I haven't checked that personally, I'm afraid.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. MacDONALD: The other piece of information that I wish to
Page 29617
1 bring to Your Honour's attention is that my colleague misspoke in saying
2 she was found in a mass grave. The transcript testimony is -- I
3 provided -- in fact, it is a single grave although amongst other single
4 graves in the same area. That is the extent of the information we have.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, there seems to be dispute about the area
6 which may need to be further explored. What explains that you found this
7 to be outside of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Are we using different grid
8 references.
9 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Or is these the correct grid references? Is it
11 military maps? Is it -- is it on the basis of the -- the global -- how
12 do you call that? What the satellites tell us. Yes, the locations --
13 MR. IVETIC: GPS.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, GPS gives us a kind of positions. This is
15 X 38, Y 59. Well, we have to -- east and north. Let's have a closer
16 look at it.
17 That does not prevent you from putting questions at this moment
18 to the witness on it, but it certainly needs to be further explored.
19 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honours. And I only rose
20 because I had had discussions with Ms. Bibles, and Mr. MacDonald is
21 correct as to the other elements that Ms. Bibles had advised me of that
22 she had confirmed, and those are the items that have been raised. And so
23 we wanted to just make sure that was clear now that we have this document
24 before us again. But obviously, they're allowed to ask questions about
25 the document.
Page 29618
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
2 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Lelek, I'm going to put you to that on the basis of what
4 happened to Hanka Kustura, Rasadnik prison was used to detain Muslim
5 civilians, including elderly women, who were then meant to be used for
6 exchange. It was not a reception or collection centre. Isn't that the
7 case, sir?
8 A. No, it is not. It was a reception centre for civilians, and it
9 was a detention unit for prisoners of war. This lady, Hanka whatever her
10 name is, Kustura, she may have died in Rasadnik, but she did not die in
11 the detention unit. She died in the rooms which -- where civilian --
12 civilians were accommodated.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lelek, how do you know that, where she died?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You've just said that she died in
15 Rasadnik.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I didn't say anything. I asked you how do you
17 know where she died.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor told me that she
19 died in Rasadnik, and I claim if she died in Rasadnik she died in the
20 reception centre not in the detention unit because Rasadnik was split
21 into two: There was a reception centre and there was a detention
22 facility --
23 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter missed the last bit of the
24 witness's answer.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We heard that several times. I just wanted to
Page 29619
1 know how do you know where this person died.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because they were not kept
3 in the detention unit. They were not prisoners of war. That's how I
4 know. I know that she was in the reception centre. That's how I know.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How do you know that this person was not in the
6 Rasadnik prison? How do you know that? Have you ever met her? Have you
7 seen her?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never met or saw her, but when I
9 went to Rasadnik because of our fighters, I was told where the reception
10 centre was and where the detention unit was. I never saw that woman. I
11 didn't know her.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was just speculation. It was not a fact you
13 testified about; correct?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I claim that
15 101-year-old woman was not kept in the prison but she was kept in the
16 detention unit -- or rather, she was kept in the reception centre, not in
17 the detention unit.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that answer. You are claiming that
19 but you have no facts. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald.
21 MR. MacDONALD: I'll move to my final topic --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. MacDONALD: -- Your Honours.
24 Q. Mr. Lelek, I'd like to speak to you briefly about Muslims leaving
25 Rogatica municipality. Muslims were forcibly transferred out of Rogatica
Page 29620
1 municipality in, amongst other times, August 1992, weren't they?
2 A. No, they were not.
3 Q. You are aware that Radislav Ljubinac was found guilty, amongst
4 other things, of forcibly transferring women and children out of the
5 village of Seljani -- sorry, Muslim women and children out of the village
6 of Seljani and Rogatica municipality to Sarajevo in August of 1992, and
7 he was found guilty by a court in Bosnia. You are aware of that, aren't
8 you?
9 A. I know that Radislav Ljubinac was found guilty and sentenced, but
10 I don't know why. I never asked him.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the first name of this person, Radislav or
12 Radoljub?
13 MR. MacDONALD: Radislav, Your Honour. Thank you.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MR. MacDONALD:
16 Q. Radislav Ljubinac was a member of the Rogatica Brigade, wasn't
17 he?
18 A. Yes, he was.
19 Q. If I can move to October 1994. And Muslims were forcibly
20 transferred out of villages in Rogatica municipality then as well,
21 weren't they.
22 A. No, they were not. All the villagers volunteered to leave their
23 place of residence. They did it of their own will. Nobody forced them
24 to do that.
25 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have P06830. This is
Page 29621
1 an article from the "New York Times" on 6 October 1994.
2 Q. I just wonder if you can read the first four paragraphs for me,
3 just to yourself, and let me know when you've finished reading, sir.
4 A. I can't say anything. I've not seen this document before. I
5 don't know what this is about.
6 Q. Well, sir, I believe earlier today when my friend asked you about
7 loyal Muslim villages, you mentioned the villages of Burati and
8 Satorovici. That's right, isn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And there are two people here who are stating they were told to
11 leave: The one from Burati by Serbian soldiers; and the one from
12 Satorovici by the Serbian authorities. That's right, isn't it?
13 A. These villagers that were loyal, they were first taken to the
14 collection centre in Rogatica, and it was their own wish to go to
15 Sarajevo, I don't know, Kiseljak, wherever people wanted to go. And then
16 when there was a larger number of them, buses took them to areas that
17 were under BH Army control.
18 Q. You didn't speak to these people leaving personally, did you?
19 A. No, never.
20 Q. You don't know if they were leaving voluntarily, do you?
21 A. I know of several cases. I know the village of Zahum that was
22 loyal. I know that they called Radivoje Planojevic, who was their
23 neighbour, and asked him to call the Municipal Assembly of Rogatica to
24 have transportation provided for them because they couldn't take it
25 anymore because the Muslim village of Uskoplje was threatening them.
Page 29622
1 They said that they would kill them because they were co-operating with
2 the Serbs. So they asked Planojevic for a bus, and Planojevic called the
3 president of the municipality, they sent a bus to their village, and they
4 boarded the business, and they were taken to the collection centre in
5 Rogatica, and from there they went further on. So they asked voluntarily
6 asked to have transportation provided for them so that they could leave.
7 They no longer dared to live in their own village.
8 Q. You didn't speak personally to any of the people leaving from
9 that village, did you?
10 A. No, no one personally.
11 Q. And this report that we read in front of us is quite clear that
12 people were forced to leave from the two villages named; correct?
13 A. I don't know to whom they gave statements and under what
14 conditions. I know exactly how things went in these loyal villages.
15 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have back on the
16 screen P06722.
17 Q. Mr. Lelek, this is the document concerning the exchange of
18 prisoners that noted that Hanka Kustura had died.
19 MR. MacDONALD: And I would ask for page 4 in both languages.
20 It's at the top in the B/C/S and it is just underneath the list that I am
21 looking for.
22 Q. Sir, I'm just going to read to you this paragraph and then ask
23 you for your comment.
24 It -- the author writes:
25 "Unfortunately, I have to write that the Karadzic Serbs have
Page 29623
1 taken advantage of the 1 October 1994 agreement signed at the airport in
2 an attempt to use the prisoner exchange as a means of legalizing actions
3 which carry all the traits of the crime of genocide. In that sense prior
4 to the exchange the Karadzic Serbs had, on 5 October, expelled the
5 remaining Bosniak population from four Rogatica villages: 66 women,
6 children, and elderly in total. On 10 October, they expelled another 21
7 residents of the villages of Burati and Kovanja, leaving these
8 territories purely Serb inhabited."
9 Mr. Lelek, it is true, is it not, that the Bosnian Serb
10 authorities used prisoner exchanges as an opportunity to further
11 ethnically cleanse Rogatica municipality?
12 A. That's not true either.
13 MR. MacDONALD: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. MacDonald.
15 Before we give an opportunity to re-examine the witness, I would
16 have a few questions for the witness.
17 Witness, you explained to us several times that the persons in
18 the reception centre had to be made prisoners of war in order to be able
19 to be part of an exchange. Is that correctly understood?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You didn't understand it correctly.
21 When I saw that list of prisoners of war, I thought that maybe somebody
22 had asked from the Muslim side for prisoners of war so that they could be
23 exchanged and that that is why they put civilians on these lists.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I'm just trying to understand, if you would
25 have left those elderly civilians to go there -- where they wanted to go,
Page 29624
1 why would the other side insist on having a list of people they would
2 receive? I mean, if would you have let them go, then of course they were
3 even better off not receiving such a list, not to be in a position to
4 have -- to make any counteroffer.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not present personally, but
6 what you heard was that it's the village of Berkovici, I think, when the
7 civilians expressed their loyalty and they asked to go to territory that
8 was under BiH Army control. I think towards Volo -- Olovo, but they
9 didn't want to take them in as civilians probably because they stayed
10 with the Serb side for a long time, and then they were returned to the
11 detention unit -- no, the collection centre, in Rogatica. And then maybe
12 later, in order to be able to go to their territory, they had to portray
13 themselves as prisoners of war.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Save me what probably was the case. Tell us what
15 you know. Then you would say they should be made prisoners of war to
16 convince the other side that a 100-year-old lady was to be exchanged not
17 to be a civilian but to be a prisoner of war? I'm just asking you
18 whether you're serious in telling us that that explains the situation.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't speak about that woman. I
20 was speaking about the civilian population from Berkovici and --
21 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm talking about the list of elderly which was
22 presented to you on which we find, among others, this old lady, three
23 times: First in February; then in April; and, finally, reported to have
24 deceased in August. I'm talking about that, not about anything else.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what the reason was,
Page 29625
1 why they were --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the end of
3 the sentence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, could you again repeat your answer
5 because the interpreters couldn't catch you, your words.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please speak into the microphone.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know why they were treated
8 as prisoners of war. Was it for an exchange maybe? But I claim with
9 full responsibility that these elderly people were not in military remand
10 prison. They were in the collection centre. That is really the only
11 thing I can say in response to that question. I have nothing to add to
12 that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Now, we've seen quite a list of persons. How many
14 rooms were there for the civilians, and how many rooms were there for the
15 military prisoners? Or prisoners of war, whatever you would ...
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean in Rasadnik?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I mean in Rasadnik.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I really didn't go
19 in there. I don't know how big it is, how many rooms were used. I
20 have -- didn't enter, so I cannot tell you about that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So you also have no personal knowledge about how
22 they were separated, if they were separated?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were separated. There was a
24 detention facility and then there was the collection centre on the other
25 side. I cannot say how many rooms belonged to which one. I did not go
Page 29626
1 in there, so I cannot say.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to ask you a few questions on a totally
3 different subject.
4 Could you have a look at paragraph 12 of your statement. You
5 have a hard copy with you?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have it here on paper. You
7 don't have to look for it out there. You don't have to put it up there.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we'll do it anyhow, if you wouldn't mind.
9 Could I ask you a few questions. First of all, you're talking
10 about listening to Radio BiH of Sarajevo and reports sent to them by
11 Fadil Heljic. Could you tell us what time-frame are you talking about?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally did not listen to
13 Radio BH Sarajevo. We had a person who was in charge who was a ham radio
14 operator, and he gave us information about these intercepted
15 communications of theirs.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So where it says, "very often we would listen," the
17 accurate statement is "very often a person I know would listen to Radio
18 BiH?"
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, all right. Yes. A mistake was
20 made there.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, you also didn't hear personally
22 that it was reported that there were cases of euthanasia and cannibalism.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear it with my own ears,
24 but I received information from a ham radio operator of ours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did you know Fadil Heljic.
Page 29627
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew him before the war. He was
2 a mailman at the post office in Zepa.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you have any contact with him during the
4 war?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You tell us that Fadil Heljic received orders to
7 bombard the public with these kind of statements. Could you tell us how
8 you know that he received such orders?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we knew through their radio
10 communications. I already mentioned this ham radio operator of ours who
11 intercepted their communications, and he told us that orders were
12 received from Sarajevo how this misinformation should be communicated in
13 order to blacken the Serb side as much as possible.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Who was the ham radio operator who conveyed all this
15 information to you?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vukola Mandza. He was a good ham
17 radio operator before the war.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you received all of this information
19 you're revealing here through him. Is that well understood?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you also referred to a document - and I think
22 that was one of the corrections, Mr. Ivetic, when I'm right - a document
23 which shows that it was all lies. Could you explain this a bit more
24 about this document because we do not know. What kind of a document is
25 it?
Page 29628
1 You say document so and so shows that these were lies and
2 fabrication and then what -- what -- what document is it? Is it a
3 letter? Is it an official document? Is it a newspaper article? What is
4 it?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a document that was sent to
6 us by this Vukola Mandza. He intercepted radio communications and sent
7 this document to us so that we would have it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine. But my question was what kind of
9 a document it is. You now explained how you received, but could you tell
10 us what it is, the document?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is a document where what
12 is written in may statement is written. That is to say --
13 JUDGE ORIE: But you commented on that document, you drew certain
14 conclusions from it, and since we have not -- we have not received that
15 document, I'd like to know from you what that document is. What kind of
16 a document is it. Is it a newspaper article? Is it an official report?
17 Is it a combat report? A daily report? Is it a letter? What kind of a
18 document is it?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think, as far as I can remember,
20 I saw this document when I testified in the case of
21 President Radovan Karadzic. This document did exist in his case. I
22 don't know whether it exists here, but that's the document.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, have you seen the document then after you
24 testified in the case against Mr. Karadzic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see it afterwards.
Page 29629
1 JUDGE ORIE: It wasn't shown to you during the interview?
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: I mean the interview by the Mladic Defence when you
4 were giving your statement. Was it then shown to you?
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can no longer
6 understand or hear the witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat your answer. My question was
8 whether the document was shown to you during your interview by the Mladic
9 Defence.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, again, my question: What kind of a document is
12 it? Because you draw conclusions on the basis of that document;
13 therefore, I would like to know what the document is.
14 MR. IVETIC: Can I correct the record, Your Honour, because you
15 are incorrect that you have not received the document? You have received
16 the document and you've given it an exhibit number.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would have preferred, as a matter of fact,
18 that it was referred to by the Exhibit number unless it was at a later
19 stage that the exhibit number was given to it.
20 MR. IVETIC: You gave the exhibit number today, Your Honours. It
21 was tendered by myself as an associated exhibit to his statement with the
22 number 1D3122. It received Exhibit D851, I believe -- 0.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are right, Mr. Ivetic, but it was not shown
24 to us. It was just admitted. We didn't see it.
25 MR. IVETIC: And Your Honour said it was not received. If
Page 29630
1 something is admitted into evidence, it is received by the Chamber.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But that's not the point.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm glad to accept that after the change
5 of the numbers that this is apparently then -- let's have a look at it.
6 It may --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One of the two associated exhibits.
8 MR. IVETIC: Yes, one of two. Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the new number. Yes, paragraph 12.
10 Yes. That must then be 1D03122, and that was the new number given. That
11 all -- well, I'll have a look at it later.
12 But I'd first like to know from you, Witness, what this document
13 is.
14 Apart from, I stand corrected, Mr. Ivetic, that we haven't
15 received it.
16 But what is the document?
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I think the witness has already
18 answered that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No, wait -- wait -- yes, he -- no, he has not.
20 MR. IVETIC: He has indeed. I can give you the transcript
21 reference.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm not at this moment at this -- I --
23 if he has answered it, then he'll answer it again.
24 MR. IVETIC: Fair enough.
25 JUDGE ORIE: What is the document?
Page 29631
1 I asked you -- gave you several options, newspaper article,
2 anything else ...
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's something different. It's
5 not a newspaper article. This ham radio operator, when he intercepted
6 that, he sent this document to us on a type-written page. It's like a
7 dispatch or something that was sent to the command of the brigade. He
8 didn't send us combat reports, I mean, the ham radio operator.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do now understand that where the witness
10 earlier testified how he received it, that it is also to be understood as
11 a transcript of what was intercepted by the ham radio. That wasn't clear
12 to me. It is clear to me now.
13 Then could I have a look at it to see ...
14 Could we have it on our screen.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: D850.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, before we further look at the document, you
18 told us that you saw this document during the Karadzic trial because you
19 said then the document was there.
20 Now, when did you see it for the first time? Was it given to you
21 by the ham radio operator, or did you see it for the first time in the
22 Karadzic proceedings?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had seen it before the
24 Radovan Karadzic case. I saw it immediately. As soon as the ham radio
25 operator intercepted this information, he immediately submitted it to the
Page 29632
1 brigade command.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I -- could we move a little bit further
3 up in the B/C/S version.
4 Yes. And on the top, it says "Lelek." Do you know who did write
5 that there?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This thing up here in the
7 right-hand corner?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this was written by the
10 Defence of Dr. Radovan Karadzic, that they had this document and that
11 they wrote that that document should be submitted to me.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you -- you said you received that right away.
13 Did you keep a copy at the time or did you destroy it or ...
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that single copy remained in
15 the archives of the brigade.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it known, Mr. Ivetic, I'm also looking at
17 you, where this document was retrieved?
18 MR. IVETIC: I believe the ERN range is from the Prosecution's
19 collection of documents that they claim from the Drina Corps, but I have
20 obviously did not get the document from the archives myself.
21 MR. MacDONALD: I don't have that information to hand,
22 Your Honours, but I can certainly check.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you please do that.
24 Then I would like to have an opportunity to at least briefly read
25 the document and see whether I have any further questions in relation to
Page 29633
1 that.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest we take an early break --
4 MR. IVETIC: That's fine.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- so that at least we can read what we had already
6 received in evidence earlier today but which I had no opportunity to read
7 yet.
8 We'll take an early break and we'll see after the break whether I
9 have any further questions for you in relation to this document.
10 If, meanwhile, the Office of the Prosecutor could provide us with
11 background information of the document.
12 MR. MacDONALD: Your Honours, I've been told already by two
13 colleagues it is from our Drina Corps collection. I can find further
14 details, if you wish. Or I can try.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think that's the most important information
16 that it was --
17 MR. MacDONALD: Yeah --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. And could I have a hard copy during the
19 break so that can I read it.
20 Witness, we'll take a break, 20 minutes.
21 Mr. Ivetic, could you already give us an indication as to how
22 much time would you need?
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I think I can complete in 15 minutes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: In 15 minutes. Then --
25 You may follow the usher.
Page 29634
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 1.30.
3 --- Recess taken at 1.08 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait for the witness to enter the courtroom.
6 Meanwhile, I have a few questions to the parties.
7 Mr. Ivetic, the witness suggested that the word "Lelek" had been
8 added during the Karadzic case. Therefore, the document as we see it
9 before us then would not be the document which was retrieved from the
10 Drina Corps. That's one.
11 Therefore, I would like the Prosecution to verify whether it's
12 exactly the same document or whether it's just the handwritten "Lelek"
13 which is missing, and also whether it's the complete document, whether
14 there is -- this is the one and only page of that document.
15 Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: I can provide some additional information. The
17 document as uploaded in our e-court is the -- well, it is the document
18 that was on the Karadzic -- that was in the Karadzic case as their number
19 1D06833. So I believe Your Honour is correct that the -- the -- this
20 handwritten -- this one with the handwritten notation is from the
21 Karadzic case --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I do not know yet. It could have been there
23 originally as well.
24 MR. IVETIC: It could have. It could have as well. Right.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore that is a conclusion which needs to be
Page 29635
1 verified first and that's what I invited the Prosecution to do.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE ORIE: And also whether it's the complete document.
4 Witness, I have a few questions on the document which is now
5 before us on the screen and which you commented in your statement,
6 paragraph 12.
7 Do I understand well that this document is a dispatch sent by the
8 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade to the Drina Corps command to the
9 Visegrad Tactical Group command and the Rudo Tactical Group command?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is my understanding also correct that it
12 reflects what a person who has intercepted a radio communication, what he
13 reports to be the content of the conversation he intercepted?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did you see that contemporaneously in
16 1992, or did you not?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was it you who received it and instructed it
19 to be sent to the corps command or was it someone else?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not receive this. This was
21 the duty of the assistant chief of staff for intelligence and security.
22 He was the one who received this.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was there any specific reason why you looked
24 at this report in 1992?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the evening when we met up at
Page 29636
1 the brigade command, the assistant chief of staff for security and
2 intelligence gave all of us this document to peruse.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is this the whole of the document, or is it
4 part of a document?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see if the document is
6 complete because I don't see the bottom of the page. I don't know
7 whether the sentence at the bottom of the page is, indeed, the last
8 sentence of the document.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My question is whether you have any
10 recollection whether it was, as it appears before us, a one-page
11 document, or whether it was a more-page document.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember how many pages
13 there were, but I remember that we received the document from the
14 assistant chief of staff for intelligence and security, and I remember
15 the contents. And I don't remember whether there was just one page, half
16 a page, more than one page, I don't know how the ham radio operator
17 presented it. He sent it to us and then we sent it to the command of the
18 Drina Corps.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Any information relevant for this
20 line of questioning?
21 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour. There does appear to be a
22 second page to this document. I --
23 JUDGE ORIE: And that is how it was -- how it was disclosed to
24 the Defence in its -- I take it that it's -- whether it electronic
25 disclosure or any way else, that this is the full document was disclosed
Page 29637
1 to the Defence.
2 MR. MacDONALD: If Your Honour would just bear with me for one
3 moment.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Meanwhile, I'll continue with a few more
5 questions.
6 Witness, you commented on it and you said what is contained in
7 this document is not true, if I understand you well. Let's first leave
8 it to the 700 Chetniks killed. You say that is not true or couldn't be
9 true?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. Nothing of the contents
11 is true.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- let's take it step by step.
13 I do understand that you said:
14 "15 armoured vehicles destroyed cannot be true because we had no
15 15 armoured vehicles. We had only 1 personal carrier and two tanks at
16 the time."
17 Therefore that is also not true in your view?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It continues to say that -- that a lady was
20 captured, more than 90 years old. Do you have any comment on that.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My only comment is that this is
22 nothing but blatant lies.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And how do you know that? Are you -- do you know
24 who are they referring to?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that we never ever captured
Page 29638
1 a 90-year-old woman anywhere up there. There was no need for us to go
2 after 90-year-old women.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, then, I take it that what is described as
4 her fate is also not true?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where it says that a woman who was
6 90-plus years old in Laze, not true. No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: No. It further says that two of the wounded
8 combatants were burned. That is not true either? And it's described as
9 having happened in the Podzeplje area.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say that because Podzeplje
11 did border on our area. It is on an entirely different side in the
12 direction of Han Pijesak. That was not in the area of responsibility of
13 our brigade, so I can't say anything about this.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So that's far away from where your unit was.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now you say this document demonstrates that
17 what was broadcasted by Radio BiH of Sarajevo is not true, and you
18 specifically refer to Fadil Heljic having received instructions that they
19 should dig as many mounds as possible along the road used by humanitarian
20 convoys and UNPROFOR and UNHCR which point to a large number of dead
21 being buried every day.
22 How does this document, which, as you say, contains no truth at
23 all --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- how would that demonstrate that other
Page 29639
1 information, which is about Muslims deceased, how would this document
2 explain that that is not true, that the reporting is not true?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were several such documents.
4 I don't know where you can find them. They're all false. We intercepted
5 them.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But now apart from whether information in
7 communications between two persons turns out to be false, my question is:
8 How that intercepted conversation would demonstrate what you say was
9 wrongly broadcasted on the radio or was contradicting the instructions
10 received by the person who was broadcasting that information, which is
11 quite different from what is dealt with in this document.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand your question.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'll not repeat it. I leave it to the parties
14 to argue on this matter.
15 I have a final few questions.
16 Were you aware of 55 Chetniks, as it is written here, released
17 from prison but they considered -- the interlocutors considered that to
18 be a mistake. Are you aware of 55 Chetniks, as they call the persons, to
19 be released from prison by apparently the Muslim side?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were never 55 Chetniks or
21 what they call Chetniks and I would call them our fighters. In any case,
22 there were never 55 of them captured them in Zepa at all, so this is yet
23 another lie.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Do you mean not 55 of your fighters, or never 55 at
25 all in Zepa, or in Muslim hands.
Page 29640
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know only know that at the
2 beginning of the war, the very beginning, 45 were killed. They were
3 members of the VRS on the way to our -- to the repeater where our crew
4 as, and as they were crossing Budicin brook --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Killing of 45 persons, which is serious, is,
6 however, something different from what my question was about; that is,
7 about 55 people being detained, captured.
8 Therefore, I repeat my question: If you say, never 55 of them
9 were captured, do you mean just in Zepa?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not from our brigade.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot claim that if they were
13 captured they were not from other brigades.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say it's still possible from other
15 brigades, 55 persons were captured.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. I'm talking
17 about our brigade.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, could you tell us where in this document
19 it says that the information relates to your brigade only?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't say so. However, I know
21 what the situation was with our brigade, and I know what information
22 would pertain to it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that you were aware of that.
24 Now, has it ever crossed your mind that the conversation which
25 was intercepted may have dealt with a far broader theatre than your
Page 29641
1 brigade?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I said that I did
3 not work on this document. It was the assistant chief of staff for
4 intelligence and security who worked on this document. I only read it at
5 a meeting. This was not a part of my duties. It was the assistant chief
6 of staff who --
7 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear to me. Nevertheless, you draw all kind
8 of conclusions off the basis of this document, and I'm focusing on that.
9 If you say, We had no 15 armoured vehicles, therefore, it must be
10 a lie that they were destroyed, then that assumes or presumes that these
11 were 15 armoured vehicles of your brigade. Would you agree with that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a lie that there were that
13 many armoured vehicles. It's a lie. I did not have that many of them.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You didn't have them, but as with the 55
15 prisoners, they may have destroyed 15 armoured vehicles elsewhere.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, this is nothing but a
17 lie. When it comes to the number of soldiers who were killed, the number
18 of tanks that were destroyed, everything false. And now why
19 Dr. Becir Heljic wrote that, he was from Zepa but lived in Sarajevo.
20 What he said and what Fadil had conveyed, I don't know why they did that.
21 You should ask them. You should talk to them, actually.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, I asked you about the fate of two
23 wounded combatants in the Podzeplje area. You said you wouldn't know
24 because that was far away from where your unit was. Have you ever
25 considered that the information in this intercept may have covered areas
Page 29642
1 far away from your unit? Whether false or true, it's a different matter,
2 but that it was not limited to the area of responsibility of your
3 brigade?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know whether
5 the brigade commander with his assistant for security and intelligence
6 discussed this ever at all. As far as I'm concerned, I never discussed
7 this document with anybody.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least with the Karadzic Defence and with
9 the Mladic Defence, I take it.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And your question is what? I don't
11 understand.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you said I never discussed it with anyone; but
13 I said but you did discuss it with the Karadzic and the Mladic Defence.
14 True?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but never before. I thought
16 that you were asking me about the time when that happened, whether I
17 spoke about this document with somebody in the brigade. No, I did not.
18 It was only the brigade commander and his assistant for intelligence and
19 security who could probably discuss this document, not me.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 I have no further questions on this document, but Judge Fluegge
22 has one or more questions for you.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Mr. MacDonald, I think we -- you have concluded your
Page 29643
1 cross-examination. I had some questions. Mr. Ivetic is now, I think
2 it's his turn.
3 If you want to provide us information, then that's appreciated.
4 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 I understand this document was not disclosed individually but as
6 part of the EDS system; I mean, the entire document is on there.
7 I think the reason there's only one page is that that is what was
8 taken in the Karadzic case. The translation request I think was from the
9 Defence in that case, and they only requested the first page be
10 translated. I understand, and I don't claim to speak B/C/S, but the
11 second -- this second page I have seems to follow on and be in the same
12 typeset and so forth and so on. That is the information I have,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And is there any sender visible?
15 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour. It appears to be type signed
16 Commander Captain Rajko Kusic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, in -- in -- in view of the answers I
18 have received to my questions, I -- perhaps it always is better to have a
19 complete document. Whatever appears on the second page, unless there are
20 surprising matters, I would not be primarily interested in it, but
21 perhaps the parties could have a look at and see whether it adds anything
22 to what can we discussed until now.
23 MR. IVETIC: We'll do so, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Judge Fluegge has a question.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lelek, also with respect to paragraph 12 of
Page 29644
1 your statement, there you say:
2 "Fadil Heljic received orders to bombarded the public with such
3 statements directly from Sarajevo from his relative, Dr. Becir Heljic."
4 I just want to know what is the basis of this statement, the
5 factual basis.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The objective was to create a bad
7 image of Serbs as aggressors and --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that the Muslim side should be
10 portrayed as those who were suffering.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please, this is not my question. I would like to
12 know the basis of your knowledge about such an instruction by
13 Dr. Becir Heljic. How do you know that, that he instructed his relative
14 in that way?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The ham radio operator who was
16 always intercepting their conversations knew that Becir Heljic was
17 sending all of these messages to Fadil Heljic in Zepa because
18 Becir Heljic hailed from Zepa and lived in Zepa before the war. He was a
19 doctor when the war started. He left and settled in Sarajevo.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. You received this information from
21 the ham radio operator, and you -- earlier you gave his name. Was
22 that -- did he tell you orally, you personally, or was it information
23 given to the brigade or to the commander? In which way did you receive
24 this information?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've told you once he did not give
Page 29645
1 me that information personally. He typed up a dispatch and sent it to
2 the brigade commander. He didn't really speak to anybody about that.
3 His communication was written and sent to the brigade command.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I also have one short follow-up question which only
6 came to my mind now.
7 The person portrayed in this intercept is a doctor. Is it your
8 evidence that that doctor must be Dr. Becir Heljic?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I claim that it was
10 Dr. Becir Heljic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And what's the basis for that claim? Because in the
12 intercept we only see that there is a doctor in Sarajevo, and there may
13 be many doctors in Sarajevo. Do you have -- what's -- what is it that
14 makes you claim that it is Dr. Heljic?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not the only conversation
16 that was intercepted. There were many such conversations where
17 Dr. Becir Heljic's name was mentioned.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any such -- now I have -- my last
19 question, is you say, well, this was all false information to give a bad
20 picture of the Serbs. If I read all this, then it mainly and primarily
21 glorifies the Muslims being so successful in their actions and only on
22 two points saying that the Serbs misbehaved. And you say it's false,
23 all, anyhow.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this is all nothing
25 but lies.
Page 29646
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- I leave it to the parties to further
2 argue on how compelling conclusions, how these documents should be --
3 this document should be interpreted against the background of what we
4 know now, that is, that the witness did not himself listen to the BH
5 radio because I don't think it would be of any use at this moment to
6 further -- but if any of the parties has questions for the question of
7 course feel free to ask them.
8 Mr. Ivetic, any further questions?
9 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I do. And first, I don't know whether
10 Judge Fluegge is finished. He asked about the name of the operator, that
11 is at temporary transcript page 65, line 21 through 22.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I know.
13 MR. IVETIC: Oh, okay. Thank you. Then I can continue with this
14 document, first of all.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
16 Q. Sir, this document identifies that this is a participant from
17 Zepa and a doctor from Sarajevo. You've already told us about your
18 understanding of who the doctor in Sarajevo is. Do you have any
19 information as to who the participate in Zepa would have been?
20 A. Is that a question for me?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Well, from Zepa, it was Heljic, the mailman, whatever. Fadil,
23 Fadil. He's one. And the other one is Dr. Becir.
24 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to move to another topic. At temporary
25 transcript page 19, lines 12 through 22, and then at several points
Page 29647
1 during the cross-examination, you repeatedly referenced a telegram or
2 dispatch sent on the 23rd of May, 1992, which you said had been -- showed
3 that you were not yet part of the VRS.
4 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to call up Prosecution Exhibit P00166 in
5 e-court.
6 Q. Sir, what we have on the screen is dated the 23rd of May, 1992.
7 And I'd like to ask you, sir, if this might perhaps be the document that
8 you kept referencing during the cross-examination of the Prosecution?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And if you could help us out, the Sokolac TO commander, what
11 entity was that during the relevant time-period?
12 A. That was this Territorial Defence in Sokolac and the
13 Territorial Defence of Rogatica. But the one at Sokolac was higher
14 ranking compared to Rogatica. That's why these dispatches were sent to
15 them, because there were no links yet with the corps or the Main Staff.
16 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you: You testified about
17 not including the references to Uzamnica and the JNA depot there at
18 Uzamnica. Do you recall when weapons were sent from Rogatica to
19 Uzamnica?
20 A. I worked in the Territorial Defence Staff until 1990. And until
21 then, that was not the case. It was probably the end of 1990 or the
22 beginning of 1991. It was probably 1991.
23 Q. Do you have knowledge of the reason why the TO weapons were sent
24 to the JNA depot at Uzamnica near Visegrad?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald.
Page 29648
1 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honours. I think -- I think my friend
2 is going to territory that was not covered in cross-examination. I spoke
3 about simply mentioning something left out of the statement. Even the
4 substance of that, I think we're straying away from that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, Mr. MacDonald, there was, of
6 course, a suggestion in your later questioning that these were relevant
7 and important matters and for that reason Mr. Ivetic is allowed to
8 briefly go to the substance as well.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 Q. Sir, do you have knowledge of the reason why the weapons of the
12 TO were sent to the JNA depot at Uzamnica near Visegrad?
13 A. It was for security reasons. There were already these party
14 divisions, and it's not only from our brigade that weapons went -- no,
15 sorry, not brigades. Territorial Defence staffs. All the weapons were
16 withdrawn into the depot, so no Territorial Defence staffs had weapons.
17 This was done for the sake of safety and security, because these party
18 divisions started already after the first multi-party elections were
19 held.
20 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to look at 65 ter number 31403.
21 MR. IVETIC: Which I'm not sure if that received a P number. It
22 was used but I don't know if it was tendered. I only have the
23 65 ter number.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was not tendered.
25 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
Page 29649
1 Q. Sir, this is the Official Note of the MUP interview, and I'd like
2 to ask you: First of all, did the police officials that were
3 interviewing you, did they record your interview to your knowledge?
4 A. Well, I really wanted to explain this even before but I wasn't
5 allowed to. This conversation took perhaps only five minutes. This
6 official who worked at the MUP in this little notepad he just jotted
7 things down: Do you know anything about the staffs? No. The Crisis
8 Staffs? No. Did you enter, did you know anything about Rasadnik and
9 these collection centres, and I said I heard that there was that at
10 Borike but I never entered. That was it, five or six minutes. That was
11 that. He left. I never received a statement from -- for me to sign.
12 And there's also other incorrect information here. Over here, in this
13 second paragraph, from the top --
14 Q. Could you direct us to the other incorrect information in this
15 Official Note from the MUP.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, other incorrect -- incorrect
17 information, I would like to hear about that because it -- although it's
18 not tendered, if I understand you well, the issue was whether the witness
19 at the time said that he never entered the centres, whereas he now says
20 that the -- we have dealt with that in quite some detail.
21 Now the witness has repeatedly confirmed that he told those MUP
22 officers that he did not enter the premises there, so in that respect at
23 least the report seems to be confirmed. Now if there is other
24 information which is incorrect, again it's not tendered so we wouldn't --
25 we wouldn't have it. We would not even be able to rely on it. Then if
Page 29650
1 you consider that important and relevant, of course, you have an
2 opportunity -- well, we come close to whether it still is something that
3 was dealt with in cross-examination because that was focused exclusively
4 on that one matter. But if you have some few short questions on that.
5 But then of course we would have a look at the whole of the document, and
6 then it should be tendered.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. IVETIC: It's a very short point that twice the witness tried
9 to raise in cross-examination and Your Honour stopped him from answering
10 it. So I think it does arise from it --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps because it --
12 MR. IVETIC: -- because you first did not know what he was going
13 to say.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, sometimes I stop witnesses because they are
15 going beyond what is asked. But if you -- in that respect -- but again,
16 if there is anything at this moment you would like to briefly address,
17 please do so.
18 MR. IVETIC: I could be very focused.
19 Q. The end of the second paragraph of this Official Note, sir, that
20 records the time-period you were chief of staff, is it accurate?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the end of the paragraph?
22 MR. IVETIC:
23 Q. Sir, that was a question and I was hoping you could answer, and I
24 think it's what you wanted to raise. The second paragraph, is the date
25 -- the dates that you are recorded, according to the MUP, as having been
Page 29651
1 chief of staff, are they accurate?
2 A. They're not correct. I said to the MUP employee then that I was
3 the chief in the brigade, the chief in the brigade, end of 1993 beginning
4 of 1994, and that until the end of the war I was there, until Dayton.
5 And what is written here is that I was appointed chief of staff of the
6 Rogatica Brigade from the 4th of April, 1992, to the 21st of June, 1996.
7 That's not correct at all. I was with my parents in the village there,
8 and I was still involved with the village guards.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I see that there's also a translation
10 issue. Well, a transcription issue rather than a translation issue.
11 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
12 JUDGE ORIE: If you elicit from the witness when he was
13 performing the function you consider we should know about, then it's --
14 will be clarified.
15 MR. IVETIC: Yeah, why don't we just do it that way.
16 Q. Sir, could you tell us what dates, as recall them, you served as
17 chief of staff of the Rogatica Brigade, the correct dates?
18 A. I cannot give the exact dates, but I know it was the beginning --
19 the end of 1993, December 1993. Or even the beginning of 1994.
20 January 1994. Not what is written here from the 4th of April, 1992.
21 Q. Okay. Now, you were asked about the Rasadnik facility, and I'd
22 like to ask you to assume that none of us have been to Rasadnik. How
23 many buildings comprised the Rasadnik reception centre and the Rasadnik
24 military remand prison?
25 A. It consisted of two buildings. But this one here, the reception
Page 29652
1 centre, it was longer and bigger than the one that was the military
2 remand prison.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned loyal Muslim villages and your
4 description of why they left Rogatica. Do you know what they did with
5 the keys to their houses and the houses themselves prior to leaving?
6 A. I don't know what they did with them. Often they would even blow
7 up their houses. They would plant these mines there, things like that.
8 Q. Okay. Now --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could we ask --
10 Could you give us two or three names of persons who mined their
11 houses and that were then -- that then did explode?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just know that Asonja [phoen], I
13 can't remember the exact name, he wanted to enter the house and he came
14 across a booby-trap and was killed in that way.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But my question was do you know specifically
16 about mining, who did it, what houses, what families did so?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say specifically because I
18 personally did not see that, so ...
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
20 MR. IVETIC:
21 Q. Do you happen to know the village where that occurred, as my
22 question dealt with the loyal Muslim villages that you had identified
23 earlier in your examination?
24 A. I cannot remember.
25 Q. Okay.
Page 29653
1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I see we're at the break I think
2 I'm -- I've completely exhausted all my questions, so I think we can --
3 unless anyone else has any questions, I'm done with the witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that, Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC:
6 Q. Thank you, sir.
7 JUDGE ORIE: No questions, Mr. Macdonald, is that how I have to
8 understand your nodding in a horizontal movement?
9 MR. MacDONALD: Indeed, Your Honour. No further questions.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Since the Bench has no further questions, Mr. Lelek, this
12 concludes your testimony. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to
13 The Hague - a long way - and for having answered all the questions that
14 were put to you, put to you by the parties, put to you by the Bench, and
15 I wish you a safe return home again.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn and we will resume Thursday, the
19 11th of December, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day of
22 December, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.
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