150217ED

Page 31763

1 Tuesday, 17 February 2015

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this

6 courtroom.

7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. This

9 is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 The Chamber was not informed of any preliminary matters to be

12 raised, therefore could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

13 [The witness takes the stand]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Radinkovic. Before we continue

15 I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration

16 you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that you will speak the

17 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Ms. Edgerton will now

18 continue her cross-examination.

19 Please proceed.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

21 WITNESS: RADOMIR RADINKOVIC [Resumed]

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]

24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Radinkovic.

25 A. Good morning.

Page 31764

1 Q. Now yesterday we left off talking about the 1400 prisoners who

2 arrived at Manjaca from Omarska, and I want to begin today on the same

3 subject. What happened to those prisoners while they were locked in

4 buses in front of the camp gate was that overnight some of the men, some

5 of the prisoners, in the buses were beaten to death; that's right, isn't

6 it?

7 A. Well, I and the personnel who were close to them didn't know

8 whether they were killed by beatings or some deliberate execution. The

9 policeman who was the closest to the site informed us that some of them

10 were taken out and liquidated on the spot. That's how it was.

11 Q. So what you're saying is overnight -- my question to you was

12 about overnight while the prisoners were locked in the buses. So you're

13 saying overnight, you're confirming, overnight some prisoners were

14 killed; correct?

15 A. It was already in the morning, at sunrise, it was already

16 daylight. What happened during the night no one was able to see, none of

17 us was able to see. It was happening inside the buses. But by sunrise

18 visibility was greater and we could see that one by one was taken out of

19 the bus and ...

20 Q. Could you hear what was happening inside the buses? You must

21 have been able to hear the screams, couldn't you? You were only

22 150 metres away.

23 A. I could not hear any screams, but the policemen on duty who were

24 close to the gate of the camp were able to hear and they informed us that

25 screams were heard, whether they were inside the bus or outside the bus,

Page 31765

1 I don't know. But that was during the night. What we could see was that

2 after sunrise some of them were taken out.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, the witness said that before, he said:

4 "We could see -- but by sunrise visibility was greater and we could see

5 that one by one was taken out of the bus and ..."

6 What did you say after "one by one was taken out of the bus

7 and ..."?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When there was more visibility, the

11 policemen saw them being taken out and literally liquidated.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you change "we could see" and "we saw" in

13 the "policemen"?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our military policemen who were the

15 closest to the gate were able to see that. We were 150 metres further

16 away in an enclosed space, we could not hear it or see it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

18 MS. EDGERTON:

19 Q. So maybe we'll move on a bit until morning time. So what you've

20 been saying, what you've been talking about as well is when the

21 1400 prisoners were unloaded there were detainees unloaded who had been

22 killed overnight, but there were also eight detainees that were brutally

23 beaten to death. That's what you've been describing; right?

24 A. Yes, precisely.

25 Q. And your team, your security team, reported that incident to your

Page 31766

1 command, didn't they?

2 A. Our security team reported that directly to me, and when I heard

3 that such events were unfolding I went to see the camp commander

4 urgently, asking to use the phone to report to our service, asking for

5 reinforcement because our assessment was that it could escalate. So I

6 personally was informed and I took steps to put an end to it.

7 Q. When you say you reported to your service, who did you

8 specifically report to?

9 A. The chief of security of the 1st Krajina Corps.

10 Q. What was his name?

11 A. Stevan Bogojevic.

12 Q. So what you did was you went over and you used the telephone and

13 you called your chief of security. Now, what I want to know is --

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not what the witness said. He informed

15 his commander and asked him to contact the person.

16 MS. EDGERTON: He asked his commander to, yes -- pardon me.

17 Q. So you informed -- when you say you went to see the camp

18 commander, that means you went to see Popovic; correct?

19 A. I just said that I had gone to see the camp commander,

20 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, Bozidar I think his name was. I went to see

21 him only to ask to use his phone because we didn't have a telephone, he

22 had one.

23 Q. Okay. So you called -- is it correct that you called

24 Stevan Bogojevic and told him what was going on?

25 A. Yes, I told him what was going on and I immediately suggested

Page 31767

1 steps to be taken, namely, that he should send a platoon of military

2 police.

3 Q. So --

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can I please clarify that.

5 Did you call your commander by phone or did you go to see him?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't go to see him, he was in

7 Banja Luka. My superior was in Banja Luka, whereas the camp commander

8 was in the next office. We should make a distinction between these two

9 things. The camp commander was in the office next door, Popovic, and my

10 commander was in Banja Luka.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was mixed up during the last questions.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Understood.

13 Q. Now -- so you've told us steps that you personally took in light

14 of the crime that was unfolding in front of the camp. I want to know

15 what the military and civilian police and the other camp staff did at

16 that moment to try and stop what was going on in front of them?

17 A. Unfortunately it was the military police who were doing it, the

18 military police who were escorting the prisoners, they were doing these

19 things. As for the military police, the military police served for the

20 internal security of the camp, certainly not outside the main gate of the

21 camp. They could not go outside and they could especially not get into

22 conflict with the civilian police.

23 Q. So --

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm a bit confused --

Page 31768

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I wish to clarify.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In your last sentence at the beginning you

4 said -- this is what I read in the transcript, you said:

5 "Unfortunately it was the military police who were doing it, the

6 military police who were escorting the prisoners ..."

7 Is that what you said?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the civilian police was

9 bringing these prisoners and escorting the buses, and the military police

10 served for the internal security of the camp. They had absolutely no

11 authority or powers or ability to go outside the gate and take any

12 steps --

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because they were in charge of

15 securing the facility of the camp.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this clarification. Perhaps it was

17 a slip of the tongue or interpretation issue.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you a very direct question. Why didn't

19 you go to the fence and say: Hey, you guys, stop doing that. Isn't that

20 a human duty, rather than to call someone who is at a distance of 20,

21 30 kilometres away -- I mean, I don't need authority if I see someone

22 killing another person to at least say that he should stop doing that and

23 not kill a second person, a third person, a fourth person. That's the

24 issue.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regrettably, three men who were

Page 31769

1 commanders or something came to the gate and said, "Who do you think you

2 are that you are standing in the way of a regular admission of these

3 people?" Two of them came to the office and said, "We had orders from

4 our boss and you have to do what our boss says." They mean their boss

5 from the civilian police. So that ruled out any possibility for me to

6 tell them: People, do your job the way you should, according to regular

7 procedure, make the lists, et cetera. They refused it all. They said,

8 "If you don't want to do what our boss says, we're not going to talk to

9 you anymore." So I couldn't go to the gate and especially not remind

10 them of their human duty and norms of behaviour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

12 MS. EDGERTON:

13 Q. First of all, these people who came to your office who referred

14 to their boss, who did you understand them to be referring to? Who was

15 the boss?

16 A. Yes. The boss was Simo Drljaca, the chief of the security

17 centre -- security services of Prijedor, the chief for that region.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, can I just get a clarification

19 here.

20 Sir, you say you, the military police, were responsible for

21 security inside the camp and could not do anything. When you phoned

22 Stevan Bogojevic to send in a platoon of military police, what were they

23 coming to do if the military police in the camp could do nothing?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The military police didn't dare to

25 do anything. They were not able to do anything. It was not in their

Page 31770

1 purview. It was not within their authority. Their job was to provide

2 security for that thousand or so people inside the facility and to

3 prevent anyone from coming in. And I called in that platoon of military

4 police, because I knew they were always available, in order to prevent

5 this because these men had obviously run out of control. I don't know

6 what their reasons were. I wanted them to put an end to it, and within a

7 very short time, 45 minutes, they arrived. It was an intervention unit

8 who had their own vehicle, et cetera, they arrived very quickly.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I appreciate what you've told us, but that

10 doesn't answer my question. My question is: If the military police

11 inside the camp cannot or do not have the authority to intervene, by what

12 right do the military police from somewhere else have the right to

13 intervene where civilian police are involved?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the structure of

15 command and control, the platoon of the military police within the

16 1st Krajina Corps is available. It's not a different police, it's just a

17 different platoon which serves as a protection platoon for special

18 purposes, special actions. They arrived ultimately to protect their own

19 colleagues in case of an attack on the camp and also to put a stop to

20 what was going on.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The camp was not being attacked. It is the

22 detainees in the buses who were being attacked. The military police in

23 the camp said they had no authority to do anything. I don't understand

24 how the military police from the platoon of the KK could have any

25 authority. You're not answering that question unfortunately, and if you

Page 31771

1 don't have an answer just say to me: I don't have an answer to that.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have an answer to that question

3 because when that military police platoon came, that platoon of the

4 reserve police, they placed their combat vehicle outside the gate. The

5 platoon of the military police was deployed and the civilian police then

6 accepted our conditions as to how to proceed, to make the lists,

7 et cetera. That was the point of the arrival of that other police unit.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're talking about lists. I'm talking about

9 stopping the killing of the people. Anyway, again I say you haven't

10 answered my question and I leave it there.

11 Madam Edgerton, you may proceed.

12 MS. EDGERTON:

13 Q. So you said that the military police at Manjaca had no authority

14 to intervene to stop that killing. What about the military

15 responsibility to protect prisoners of war and civilians under the

16 Geneva Conventions, didn't that oblige them to act at that moment to stop

17 the crime unfolding in front of them?

18 A. Well, that's why that platoon of military police was inside, for

19 the purposes of internal security, to protect those of us who were

20 working there and the prisoners of war. I have to recall that a person

21 becomes a prisoner of war once he passes through the gate of the camp,

22 not before. They were in charge of protecting the prisoners inside the

23 camp, certainly not outside.

24 Q. So you're saying that the Geneva Conventions in this case didn't

25 apply because these detainees hadn't passed the gates of Manjaca before

Page 31772

1 they were beaten to death?

2 A. Well, you can interpret it that way too because they had not been

3 turned over to us yet and they were not logged in the book of prisoners.

4 But as I said earlier, we tried to organise that as the rules of the camp

5 governed involving the hand-over of the lists and the Geneva Conventions

6 also regulate that kind of admission process.

7 Q. Well, my question wasn't about my interpretation. I want to know

8 about your interpretation. Are you saying that you and the military

9 police at Manjaca had no obligation to act to stop the crime unfolding in

10 front of them, according to some kind of regulations?

11 A. I've already stressed this. The military police inside, every

12 policeman had his own place and a certain area of responsibility that he

13 supervised and monitored. All that happened within the camp. He had no

14 right under the orders to go outside. Everything related to security and

15 protection related to the inside of the camp and that's what the

16 Geneva Conventions governed. There were more than 2.000 people inside

17 and they needed to be protected.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, perhaps you should move on.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Thank you.

20 Q. Yesterday you told Mr. Stojanovic that prisoners arrived at

21 Manjaca with visible injuries, and you said that at transcript page 31731

22 to 31732. And so on the subject of injuries to prisoners, it's also

23 correct, isn't it, that prisoners were beaten by the military police

24 coming to and from their interrogations; correct?

25 A. Unfortunately, such things happened too. It was not standard

Page 31773

1 practice and there were certainly no orders to do that, but individuals

2 with bad intentions, with a desire for revenge, did such things.

3 Q. And prisoners were also beaten as they arrived at the camp when

4 they got off whatever means of transport had brought them, that the

5 people who brought them would make a gauntlet for the prisoners entering

6 the camp to pass through, and as they went through that gauntlet the

7 prisoners were beaten; right?

8 A. Unfortunately, that did happen in the beginning, that is to say,

9 until a selection was made of policemen who were providing security.

10 Since we could not have insight into the files of these military

11 policemen, what kind of persons they were, whether they had some

12 frustrations, et cetera, they abused the situation and they did that.

13 However, very quickly a selection took place or perhaps it would be

14 better to say that a certain number of soldiers, policemen, were removed

15 and people who could do this more professionally were brought in. And

16 then these so-called gauntlets or whatever they were called - I don't

17 know how the prisoners interpreted this - that was strictly prohibited

18 then and no longer applied.

19 I'm sorry, as for bringing people in for interrogations, that did

20 happen. When persons were brought in for interrogation, then some

21 policemen tried to mete out justice the way they saw it fit and they did

22 what they did as they were bringing people in for questioning, but then

23 we dealt with that too.

24 Q. And prisoners were also beaten during their interrogations by the

25 civilian police officers, the policemen you referred to yesterday who

Page 31774

1 would come and work in the offices of the security organs; right?

2 A. Unfortunately, they applied that method, too, of forcibly

3 acquiring evidence, if we can put it that way. We could hear these

4 screams and moans. They applied these methods. Our team had no need to

5 do that. We really worked in such a way that would relax them so that we

6 could get certain information. Again, I say, unfortunately we could not

7 affect their work. They had their own guide-lines or their own rules of

8 conduct and they were not duty-bound to report to us, even if we were to

9 give them certain recommendations.

10 Q. And on top of hearing the screams and the moans of prisoners

11 being beaten in the offices nearby you, you yourself saw the marks of

12 being beaten on the prisoners you personally interrogated; right?

13 A. Yes. When a policeman or a patrol would bring in a particular

14 person for an interview, an interview as we called it, then as

15 professionals we noticed that there were fresh injuries on these people,

16 that is to say, traces of blood and things like that. These people,

17 these prisoners even interpreted it in the following way: He tripped

18 over and fell and that's how he had a scratch or a bruise or whatever.

19 That was done in order to prevent even harsher beatings later. Of course

20 we found out very quickly who these policemen were who did that kind of

21 thing and an express procedure was applied to remove them from the

22 service; that is to say, they were no longer allowed to be there and do

23 that job.

24 Q. They were military policemen; right?

25 A. Military policemen from the security of the camp itself,

Page 31775

1 literally. No one else had the right to enter this inner security

2 compound.

3 Q. Now, you --

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one additional question just to this

5 topic?

6 MS. EDGERTON: Of course.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You told us just now that sometimes people were

8 brought in to the interview by you and you saw injuries. What did you

9 do? Did you record them?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We as professionals, I mean it is

11 most logical, I mean from the documents that you have available here you

12 can conclude that we did our work extremely professionally and the least

13 we could do is record that or as a matter of fact we asked for medical

14 assistance, rather we would send them to the duty doctor, or rather, the

15 medical technician who would call in a doctor and who would treat a

16 particular person's wounds and so on. What we did later, it is only

17 logical, we asked for that automatically. From our sources who were

18 among the population there, we found out who these soldiers were who did

19 that kind of thing and that was against regulations and --

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry for interrupting you. You went beyond my

21 question. I want to know where these injuries were noted down on paper.

22 Was it in the file where the interview was written down or was it

23 somewhere else, and was it reported to your superiors?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly the superiors were

25 informed because they were the only ones who could allow for a

Page 31776

1 replacement of certain policemen. It's not that my colleagues and I

2 could simply chase them away --

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are not --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- it went to --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the end of

6 the sentence.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You're not focusing on my question. Did you

8 write that down on paper and can that be found? And did you report in

9 writing to your superiors? Not -- I'm not asking about the procedure of

10 replacement of military policemen. How did you inform about the injuries

11 and how they were inflicted?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not on paper. I mean the paper was

13 about the interview on a particular topic that we dealt with, so that

14 didn't belong there. It's up the chain of command that we reported

15 orally that this kind of thing was happening.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Not on paper. Thank you very much.

17 MS. EDGERTON:

18 Q. And you -- when you say you reported orally up the chain of

19 command, you mean you reported to your superior Bogojevic at the corps

20 command; right?

21 A. Precisely, because it wasn't a single case. There were several

22 cases and then we concluded that certain policemen could no longer do

23 that and we asked through the chain of command to have them replaced.

24 Q. Now, just on the subject of the treatment of prisoners I want to

25 talk for a little while about Omer Filipovic, actually, and I want to

Page 31783

1 did they?

2 A. Well, just as they didn't have it, then we didn't have it either.

3 We were there too, we didn't have any water and that's how water was

4 brought to us also, in jerrycans. Unfortunately there was no system

5 there. Later on this was taken care of and then it functioned and then

6 people didn't go to fetch water any longer.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, two minutes ago you told us there was good

8 water-supply, no problem whatsoever. And now Ms. Edgerton puts to you

9 that there was no water and you say: Well, we didn't have it either.

10 That's not very consistent. It undermines the credibility and the

11 reliability of your evidence. I don't know whether you are aware of

12 that. To explain why there was not sufficient water one minute after you

13 told us that there was sufficient water is at least something that would

14 puzzle us. Any comments on that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have a comment. That is to

16 say, if there is no water for them, there is no water for us. So when

17 water is brought for them, then water is brought for us too. That is the

18 only interpretation. That is all.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

21 MS. EDGERTON:

22 Q. To go on to another area, you talked in your written evidence

23 about the suffocation of 24 prisoners from Sanski Most during their

24 transportation to Manjaca and I want to ask you a little bit about that.

25 First of all, you reported to your corps command the fact that

Page 31784

1 these prisoners were suffocated during their transportation; right?

2 A. Well, that was our statement, that is to say of the military

3 policemen who were in contact with the civilian police that brought in

4 these trucks, or rather, these prisoners in trucks, that they literally

5 suffocated because the trucks were covered with tarpaulin. So they were

6 sealed, not to mince my words, and they simply suffocated. There was no

7 oxygen and that is how the people who were weaker died.

8 Q. All right. Now, also in your written evidence you said that your

9 orders -- actually, you said "our orders" were to load these prisoners

10 who had suffocated back on the trucks. So I want to ask you a couple

11 questions about that.

12 First of all, since you were part of the reception committee that

13 day you would know that it was Colonel Popovic who actually ordered the

14 bodies be removed; right?

15 A. Colonel Popovic as camp commander gave that order but at our

16 proposal, the proposal of the security organs, because they wanted at all

17 costs to leave those dead people there, but we had our rules and there

18 was no space for this to be done. And Colonel Popovic gave this order to

19 load them on to the trucks and then to take them to Sanski Most and do

20 whatever it was that they were supposed to do with them.

21 Q. Okay. So since this was your order I just want to get this

22 straight. So no steps were taken to identify the dead persons, right?

23 You just said -- you told Colonel Popovic: Load them up and take them

24 away?

25 A. Unfortunately, that was a logical sequence because we took in

Page 31785

1 only the living. We could not take in the dead. We did not have records

2 as to who was left there, I mean during the hand-over -- I mean people's

3 names were called out and one by one and of course we could not deal with

4 the dead in that way.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, witness, are you serious in telling us that

6 because if you would call out persons that had died, that that's the

7 reason just to do nothing, just leave matters as they are, let's get rid

8 of the bodies? Is that your testimony?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it wasn't for us to deal with

10 dead bodies because we did not contribute in any way that this would

11 happen within the Manjaca camp. Quite simply, they could not have been

12 taken in because they were not alive. I don't see what's in dispute

13 there. Those were the regulations, those were the orders we received,

14 and that is how we behaved. I think it was only logical for them to be

15 returned to where they had come from.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't this an extraordinary situation?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it is an extraordinary

18 situation, but we are not in charge of doing anything else.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it true that in extraordinary situations, the

20 rules usually do not provide for a response which would then allow

21 everyone to say: The rules didn't tell us what we had to do, therefore

22 we left it to others?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, we could not decide

24 on our own. The moment we realised there were 24 dead, we automatically

25 had to contact the chief of our service to report to him what was going

Page 31786

1 on. We had no powers to make decisions independently one way or another.

2 We were waiting for feedback from our superior command. They said along

3 the chain of command we would inform the security services centre in

4 Sanski Most to collect them and take them back to where these people had

5 come from. We just carried out what was within our competence.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I'm looking at the clock, it's time

7 for a break.

8 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes. We take a

9 break.

10 Could you give us an indication as to how much more time you'd

11 need, Ms. Edgerton, after the break?

12 [The witness stands down]

13 MS. EDGERTON: I'll check to be more accurate, but I think I'll

14 use my estimated time, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Which was, let me -- two hours, 25.

16 MS. EDGERTON: I'll aim for two hours, 15, actually,

17 Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, if you take your time during the break,

19 then we'll take the time to ask Mr. Registrar ...

20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Until now you've used one hour, 27 minutes, that's

22 net time.

23 We take a break and we'll resume at five minutes to 11.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

Page 31787

1 [The witness takes the stand]

2 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Radinkovic, we'll just continue where we left off, still on

5 the same subject about the prisoners from Sanski Most.

6 Now, can you tell us, you've already said that it was Popovic who

7 gave the order to remove the bodies based on your proposal, so were you

8 actually there when the bodies were loaded back on to the truck?

9 A. No. It's -- the patrol of the military police who was on duty

10 went outside, stood outside at the gate, and when the living were

11 disembarking from the buses, the dead bodies were taken out too. I

12 personally wasn't watching.

13 Q. And what about when the dead were loaded back on to the truck to

14 be driven away, were you there or not?

15 A. It wasn't my job to leave the camp without any special need. If

16 the military police was carrying out its tasks --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let me stop you there.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- as envisaged --

19 JUDGE ORIE: The simple question was whether you were there when

20 the dead were loaded back on to the truck. Were you there or were you

21 not there?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't there.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That's an answer to the question.

24 Please proceed.

25 MS. EDGERTON:

Page 31788

1 Q. So you wouldn't have seen that it was not only -- that loaded on

2 to the truck were not only the people who had suffocated, there were men

3 who were unconscious and there were prisoners who were very much alive

4 loaded on to the truck and driven away. You didn't see that, did you?

5 A. No, I was not informed that the living were turned back, because

6 all the living were admitted into the camp, even those who had to be

7 carried in from that transport.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, no one asked you whether you were

9 informed. The question was whether you had seen it. Apparently you have

10 not.

11 Please proceed.

12 MS. EDGERTON:

13 Q. So if you -- if you --

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now you told us that it was the civilian police who brought these

16 detainees from Sanski Most to Manjaca camp, but you weren't there to see

17 that either, were you?

18 A. In any case, the civilian police was bringing prisoners from

19 these municipalities, and I certainly wasn't there, I didn't go outside

20 because there was no need.

21 Q. So you don't know, then, that it was actually members of the

22 6th Krajina Brigade who were among the people escorting these trucks

23 where people suffocated to death? You don't know that?

24 A. I don't know that. We were told that the civilian police from

25 Sanski Most was escorting them. That's the report we got, and the

Page 31789

1 civilian police were present during the hand-over.

2 Q. We'll go on to another area, and I want to go to a document that

3 you saw during your testimony in the Karadzic proceedings.

4 MS. EDGERTON: It's P2899.

5 Q. So you've had a look at this document -- I'll wait a couple of

6 minutes. There we go. You've had a look at this document a couple of

7 years ago. It's a daily report of your team dated 18 to 20 August 1992

8 to the 1st Krajina Corps on the interrogation of prisoners of war at

9 Manjaca and the visit of a group of foreign journalists.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Let's go over to English page 4 and B/C/S page 2,

11 please.

12 Q. So have a look at the paragraph at the -- it's your document, so

13 have a look at the paragraph at the bottom of the page in your language

14 and the bottom of the page in English as well.

15 Now, it says you received a task from Major Stupar, which was the

16 result of a telegram from the Main Staff of the Serbian Army. And in

17 accordance with this telegram there was a joint -- a large joint meeting

18 at Manjaca camp, representatives of the Bosanska Dubica, Kljuc,

19 Banja Luka, Prijedor, and Mrkonjic Grad police services came to Manjaca,

20 and there at that joint meeting Major Stupar and Vaso Skondric presented

21 some tasks and instructions for joint work. So you remember the meeting,

22 right, we talked about it two years ago?

23 A. Yes, yes, I remember that meeting, we did.

24 Q. All right. So having seen this document, let's move on to a

25 related document, it's P223, which I also showed you two years ago. It's

Page 31790

1 an excerpt from the diary of a Kljuc SJB police inspector who you knew by

2 the name of Tore Gajic and these are his notes about that meeting.

3 So just have a look at the first page. So he writes on the

4 20th of August you see that you at number 4, are among the people who sat

5 with Stupar and Skondric and the camp commander to discuss, as it says in

6 the document, the treatment and prominence of persons who participated in

7 armed disturbances.

8 Now, if you just go down under point 4, underneath your name, you

9 see reference to:

10 "Introductory remarks on the Serbian republic presidency's

11 position were presented by Major Stupar."

12 And then there's a note:

13 "A list of 92 individuals, for whom there is no evidence of

14 executing/participating in military activities, they are quite ill and

15 their appearance is attracting attention from the media and humanitarian

16 organisations."

17 So this is what you understood the Presidency's position to be,

18 right, you had to gather a list of individuals for whom there was no

19 evidence that they had taken part in military activities, were sick,

20 or -- and whose appearance is attracting attention from humanitarian

21 organisations. That's what you understood; right?

22 A. Yes, that's how I understood it, but it was already the product

23 of our work by that time. We had already identified 92 people of that

24 kind and it was our initiative that these people should either be

25 exchanged or allowed to go to third countries or leave the camp in some

Page 31791

1 other way.

2 Q. All right. So let's have -- just go over a couple of pages and

3 have a quick look at your list.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Let's go over to page 5 in both languages.

5 Q. At number 11 on page 5, you see a young man or a man by the name

6 of Refik Salihovic and he was arrested on May 29th and he's sick with

7 active tuberculosis. So this is an example of one of the people who you

8 picked that fit the criteria you were given; right?

9 A. I've already said it's not they who gave us the criteria. We had

10 already produced these criteria ourselves. Following the work of the

11 medical team day by day, it was established that a number of these people

12 should be sent away to receive medical care, and that includes the number

13 you just mentioned.

14 Q. So --

15 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment.

16 All right. Let's just go over and quickly look at another one.

17 Let's go over to page 12 in both languages.

18 Q. On page 12 there's a fellow by the name of Denis Gromlic who was

19 17 at the time he was arrested, right, he was born in 1975. So that's

20 another example of the type of people who fit these criteria; right?

21 You're not arguing with that, are you?

22 A. It fits that criteria perfectly and I have nothing to dispute.

23 These are the facts.

24 MS. EDGERTON: So let's go look at one final one before we leave

25 this document, let's go back to page 6.

Page 31792

1 Q. Do you see the name Refik Dedovic at number 20? He's got kidney

2 disease, born in 1934. Right?

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you repeat the name. I think you misspoke.

4 MS. EDGERTON: I did.

5 Q. Refik Dedic, born in 1934.

6 A. You're asking me? Yes, I see that and he was supposed to be one

7 of the first to go. That's only logical, because we had already

8 transported him in an ambulance to the clinical centre. There was no

9 dialysis available at that time. We just sent him away for medical

10 assistance, and I believe after this he was sent to Geneva for treatment.

11 Q. All right. Now, so when we talked about this document in the

12 Karadzic case and I asked you what you understood -- whether this is what

13 you understood to be the Presidency's position, to release those people

14 for whom there is no evidence of executing military activities, that

15 they're quite ill, and their appearance is attracting international

16 attention, what you said was: Yes, you understood that to be the

17 Presidency's position because Major Stupar came from corps command with

18 that kind of position, the command position, and he must have received

19 that on the basis of an order from the Presidency or higher organs. You

20 can confirm that; right?

21 A. I confirmed then and I confirm now, Major Stupar and that crew

22 who attended that meeting only confirmed the position that was passed

23 along the chain of command from the Main Staff and the Presidency,

24 specifically the president of the republic, that these people whom we had

25 already suggested should go should be urgently released. It was their

Page 31793

1 position and we had no consideration for public opinion or the

2 international public, et cetera. The interest of the world public had

3 nothing to do with it. We were interested in getting treatment for these

4 people, including this boy who was underage.

5 MS. EDGERTON: Now, now, let's go to one last document, it's

6 P4289.

7 Q. And it's dated 11 September 1992 and it's another document you

8 saw two years ago. Now, this is a document from your corps command

9 forwarding the contents of a telegram from the Presidency granting

10 amnesty to 69 prisoners from Manjaca and Trnopolje, and three of

11 them - just three of them - Gromlic, who's at number 6; Salihovic, who's

12 at number 17 -- two of them are the names you discussed at the August

13 meeting. So a small subset, a very small number of the names you

14 discussed at that meeting are released; right?

15 A. Well, of course. We made a list - shall I call it a wish

16 list? - of people who should go and the command was just supposed to

17 decide which of them or if all of them would be allowed to leave in

18 various ways, through exchange or release, et cetera.

19 Q. So, Mr. Radinkovic, this is only a token gesture -- whatever your

20 motivation, whatever your personal motivation might have been, this is

21 only a token gesture by your leadership to avoid international

22 condemnation, isn't it?

23 A. It's their right and their policy that I didn't go into. We did

24 our job professionally. And as for why the authorities decided what they

25 decided, whether to score points with somebody else, it's up to them. It

Page 31794

1 had nothing to do with us.

2 Q. Well, what they decided, Mr. Radinkovic, was to hold thousands of

3 non-Serb detainees at Manjaca until it was closed in December of 1992,

4 releasing them only on the condition that they be sent to third countries

5 and that was their policy, wasn't it? You were there at the time, you

6 saw it?

7 A. Yes, and I participated in the selection. Military age,

8 able-bodied men who were captured, regardless of whether they had a

9 criminal record or not, were the most logical choice for being released

10 to go to third countries, because it was not in our interest to release

11 them and then have to fight them on the other side if they rejoined the

12 army.

13 MS. EDGERTON: I have nothing further, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question in relation to the last answer

15 you gave.

16 It may not have been in your interests, but what was the legal

17 basis for sending them abroad if they would have preferred to go home,

18 for example?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Among them there are some

20 people - I have to tell you this - who had expressed their intention,

21 their willingness, to join the Army of Republika Srpska. That's a

22 statement they made to the security organs. They wanted to join their

23 neighbours and friends in the troops. We could not release them to go

24 home because that was not safe, and the second safest option was for them

25 to go to third countries where they would be given accommodation and

Page 31795

1 means of survival. But we couldn't release them to go home. Physically

2 it was impossible.

3 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by "physically it was impossible"?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was impossible. It would

5 have been a sin to release them from the Manjaca camp to go to their own

6 homes. If they had been on the receiving end of beatings even there, you

7 can imagine what would have happened outside. So the most logical choice

8 was to let them go somewhere where they would be given accommodation.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Which you switch in one minute from telling us that

10 it was not in your interest, that they would become members of the

11 opposite army; and then to say: Well, we protected them. What would

12 have happened to them if they were subject to beating if they would have

13 returned to their own community?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, logically that was the safest

15 place for them because it was impossible for outsiders to come in and

16 harm them, which would have not been the case if they had been at large.

17 God knows what would have happened if they ran into the military police

18 or the civilian police, God knows how they would have fared. So the

19 safest place for them to go was a third country.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. A minute ago you said:

21 "Among them there are some people - I have to tell you this - who

22 had expressed their intention, their willingness to join the Army of

23 Republika Srpska. That's a statement they made to the security organs."

24 Now, first of all, I wondered whether they had expressed their

25 willingness to join the Army of Republika Srpska because you then

Page 31796

1 continue to say:

2 "They wanted to join their neighbours and friends in the troops."

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly. There was a certain

4 number of people of different ethnicities in our army throughout the war,

5 I mean Muslims and Croats.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think I now better understand. You say they

7 wanted to join our army but they would not be safe in our army if they

8 would be there with their neighbours, and therefore it was better for

9 them to go abroad. What about saying: Well, perhaps the army is not the

10 safest place, perhaps you better go home and do not join our army?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but your conclusion is

12 not correct. I knew there was a certain number of people who had even

13 made written statements about their willingness and desire to join the

14 army. This number of people would have followed a completely different

15 procedure. That is separate from our position, from our opinion, that

16 for some other people the safest place to go was a third country.

17 JUDGE ORIE: It's not entirely clear to me now. Are you saying

18 those who wished to join the VRS, were they sent abroad or is it the

19 others? Because you said "some had expressed," whereas apparently others

20 had not expressed such a wish. Now, which -- could you first deal with

21 the ones who expressed a wish to join the VRS. Was there a completely

22 different procedure for them or what happened to them?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not a procedure. Quite simply, we

24 documented their written statements and they even exist here at the

25 Tribunal; that is to say, that was their decision, their wish, or perhaps

Page 31797

1 it was their assessment that that was the only way in which they could

2 get out, out of the camp, but that was for them. It was for us to send

3 this on. In the meantime a certain order arrived stating that a larger

4 number should leave including those, we included those. The army did not

5 call them up in a particular unit. Of course we put them on this list

6 and including 500-something people, they went to Sweden or wherever.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Did you give them the option to go home instead of

8 to Sweden?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We could not have given them that

10 and it wasn't our mandate to give them that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: In your statement we find some observations in

12 relation to Dr. Enes Sabanovic, who you said was not an extremist, not at

13 all. And I think you told that he was then in the reception committee.

14 Is that well understood?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is well understood. We

16 received certain information from the civilian authorities in the

17 accompanying documents that he was some kind of an extremist in

18 Sanski Most and so on. However, through our operative work,

19 intelligence, and working with the man himself, we came to the conclusion

20 that he was an exceptionally honest and fair man, a good physician, and

21 he provided assistance to his colleagues.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, when you found out that he was not an

23 extremist and that he was an extremely honest man, what did you then do?

24 Did he continue to work in the reception committee?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he had -- he had semi-prison

Page 31798

1 status literally. He was staying among the prisoners but he had the

2 right to leave at his own request, even at his own request, let alone

3 when somebody would come to get him out. Then our male nurse from the

4 infirmary would come and get him and they would provide medication

5 together and so on. He was a good man and we said that to our superiors

6 too. No matter how much we needed him, that he should nevertheless be

7 one of the first to leave, regardless of whether it would be an exchange

8 or going to third countries or whatever.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but although there was no proper reason to

10 remain in detention, he nevertheless, although with a special status,

11 remained in Manjaca, as you said, semi-prison status, he was not

12 released?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, nobody was released except

14 for the pardon that the president of the republic provided to certain

15 persons. Only when we would receive information in writing to that

16 effect from the president that he had pardoned someone or released them,

17 then that person would be escorted by the military police and would be

18 taken to a place where he would be taken over by the civilian structures;

19 that is to say, no one could have -- I mean, it's for the sake of their

20 own safety and security if they were to leave they could not move about

21 safely.

22 JUDGE ORIE: One final question. You referred to the

23 Geneva Conventions several times. Are you aware that under international

24 humanitarian law which we find in the Geneva Conventions, that there is

25 individual responsibility which cannot be evaded by saying that you acted

Page 31799

1 under orders? Are you aware of that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everyone who worked on the team for

3 dealing with prisoners of war had to study the Geneva Conventions, and I

4 was aware of them, my colleagues were aware of them; however, war and

5 conflict are one thing and all of this is -- well, I claim with full

6 responsibility that we as human beings made a superhuman effort to make

7 these people feel as safe as possible and we did our best so that they

8 would be treated according to the Geneva Conventions if not 100 per cent,

9 then up to a maximum. We were -- how should I put this? We were the

10 ones who took care of the police and everything else regardless of all of

11 these other things. We gave our contribution under the given

12 circumstances and possibilities because there were also questions like

13 supplies and we were not -- well, it was the way it was.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Are you telling us that because there was a war

15 situation that it would be difficult to fully comply with the Geneva

16 Conventions?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, because you should all,

18 all of you here should bear in mind that this is 1992 and that the

19 population of Republika Srpska was hungry for the most part; that is to

20 say, the supplies were very poor and so on and so forth. But we -- or

21 rather -- no, not we, the camp command managed to provide as much as was

22 possible at that point in time. That is why I'm saying that a maximum

23 was given, the maximum of what was possible at that time.

24 Let me add something else to this. Some people came and it was

25 very hot, summertime, and --

Page 31800

1 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not going to -- I'm not going to ask you for

2 further examples. If I understand you well you say: Well, in war time,

3 Geneva Conventions cannot always be fully complied with. That's when you

4 refer to 1992, when you're referring to the situation, when you said war

5 is one thing, and I take it that you meant with that that in war

6 circumstances you might not be able or that the Geneva Conventions

7 should -- the application of Geneva Conventions should be adapted to the

8 war situation. Is that how I have to understand your testimony?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I wanted to say that we made a

10 maximum effort on our part so that things would be the best possible, the

11 safest possible, and so on. As for other circumstances, we could not

12 affect them. There was a war going on. That's what I was saying.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

14 Any questions in re-examination? Judge Moloto has one or more

15 questions for you.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Sir, we saw from the list of 92 people who

17 were ill, only two were listed among those who were pardoned, the 57 who

18 were pardoned. What became of the remaining 90 of the sick ones?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They waited for the first exchange

20 that would come or the first departure. The first group went to Geneva,

21 I think, if I remember correctly. They were waiting for the following

22 list, the following team, if you will, that was 520 prisoners.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were they not being treated as priority because of

24 their ill health? I see people are being pardoned and -- over them?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We gave them priority, we who

Page 31801

1 processed them and provided the information, we thought that they were a

2 priority; however, the assessment of others who were above us was the one

3 that was decisive who could go. It was for us to give a green light, but

4 all departures were not based on our lists.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: How long did it take from the time that you

6 received this position of the leadership before they were finally

7 released, the 520?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Given the time distance, as far as

9 I can remember it was about a month.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And all of the 90 were amongst the 520?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, regrettably.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And they were sent to third countries in that poor

13 state of health?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they went there to be

15 treated, didn't they?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: What means of transport did they use to go to

17 third world -- countries?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Buses, organised, a sufficient

19 number of seats, too, so that they would not leave as they had arrived to

20 us. They went through Croatia and then I don't know how they went after

21 that.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, any questions in re-examination?

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

Page 31812

1 Then, Mr. Stojanovic, meanwhile please proceed.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. We can now continue in open session, Mr. Radinkovic, and I should

4 like us to look at one document.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 07062, 07062. I don't

6 think that's the right document. The number that I have, 07062 -- no,

7 that's not the right document, Your Honours. Until I'm able to identify

8 the right one, I'll move on to the next one. P0 -- P2881. That's the

9 right document.

10 Q. Mr. Radinkovic, could you kindly look at it. It's a telegram

11 from the Main Staff of the Army of the Serbian Republic

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina dated 12 August 1992. In this text we see that it's

13 under the name of Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at item 2.

15 Q. "For the purpose of creating appropriate living conditions in the

16 Manjaca camp, immediately execute the following ..."

17 Now, look at item 2:

18 "Provide adequate accommodation to the prisoners, meals in the

19 amount of 2.800 calories per person per day, continuous water-supply for

20 washing and for drinking, no less than 20 litres per prisoner, soap, and

21 toiletries."

22 Can you remember if you had occasion to read this telegram of the

23 Main Staff sent to the command of the 1st Krajina Corps?

24 A. I can remember because in the accompanying document from the

25 General Staff, or rather, the corps command and lower units it was always

Page 31813

1 sent to us or there was an accompanying letter from the Presidency

2 referenced so that we were able to see from where it's coming.

3 Q. Thus, did the administration of the POW camp at Manjaca have the

4 ability logistically to meet the commitments that followed from this

5 order of the Main Staff?

6 A. Unfortunately, as far as I'm able to remember, it was not

7 possible to meet all of these requirements because, as I said, many

8 things were in short supply. There was a deficit of fuel and food and it

9 couldn't be supplied from the corps command to the Manjaca camp. We did

10 our best to meet these requirements, but some things were just not

11 feasible. At that time it was not totally realistic.

12 Q. In paragraph 4 of this telegram --

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could scroll down so that

14 after the Trial Chamber reads this sentence we could move to the second

15 page.

16 Q. -- it says:

17 "All the prisoners who are wounded, sick, or handicapped are to

18 be transferred to a special facility which is to be made into a prison

19 hospital with the equipment for radiography and other diagnostic

20 equipment for periodic x-rays for prisoners who have tuberculosis."

21 Can you remember if work was done to implement this order of the

22 Crisis Staff as well?

23 A. Yes, work was done, especially because there was some inmates who

24 had tuberculosis. Even before this order they were placed in a facility

25 separate from other POWs, but it was technically impossible to place

Page 31814

1 radiography equipment in that facility. In any case, they were not far

2 from the clinic where they could be occasionally taken for x-rays and

3 other procedures --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, you are interpreted as striking

5 off this order coming from the Crisis Staff, is that correct, or I see it

6 comes from Mr. Mladic. If you look at page 51, line 8:

7 "Can you remember if work was done to implement this order of the

8 Crisis Staff ..."

9 Did it come from the Crisis Staff?

10 THE INTERPRETER: It must be a mistake of the interpreter. I'm

11 sorry.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. The interpreter has answered.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

15 Q. In paragraph 5 we read among the orders in this telegram of the

16 Main Staff:

17 "Immediately stop all sorts of mistreatment, physical assaults,

18 and beatings of the prisoners."

19 My question is: Was this a constant order of the Main Staff and

20 your superior command?

21 A. That was a constant order. But this date coincides with some of

22 our reports or initiatives that certain people be removed from their

23 positions because they were unable to do their work properly, and it came

24 as a confirmation from our chief commander to clear this situation up.

25 And very quickly after this, the best possible order was restored.

Page 31815

1 Q. Could you now look at paragraph 6, the Main Staff writes:

2 "Review the possibility of releasing civilian prisoners, whereas

3 the military prisoners are to be ensured the conditions that have been

4 ordered."

5 How did you understand it? How did you understand your job in

6 creating the possibility for considering the release of some prisoners?

7 A. By that time we had already finished with a triage and we knew

8 exactly which prisoners could be released, could be allowed to go free,

9 and that's what I referred to when I spoke about some of them going to

10 third countries, which was the safest option. And as for the others, we

11 also made some proposals that they be exchanged or sent to third

12 countries.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now could we please look at

15 P2 --

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we move to another document, I have some

17 questions with respect to this, especially the last answer.

18 Mr. Radinkovic, in the document under item 6 it says:

19 "Take into consideration a possibility of releasing civilian

20 prisoners ..."

21 You told us that you didn't have any authorities to release

22 somebody. And now explaining this item 6 you said -- you are talking

23 about transferring people to a third country, but nothing about release.

24 Can you explain that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, I can explain with full

Page 31816

1 responsibility. Regardless of the fact that this was signed by the

2 commander of the Main Staff, according to our rules of service, the way

3 things worked in the camp we could not release prisoners to leave the

4 camp on their own. That's the way it was regulated, but we had already

5 selected a number of people who could be allowed to leave the camp

6 because we had concluded they were civilians and had never been involved

7 in any military activity.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Reading number 6 doesn't limit the release to

9 release to a third country or prepare for an exchange.

10 "Take into consideration a possibility of releasing ... the

11 prisoners ..."

12 Did you take that into consideration? Did you make any proposals

13 to release civilians?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we could not do that, it was

15 not our mandate.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have another question. Can we go back to the

17 first page in English, please. I recall that you said: I can remember

18 this document because in the accompanying document from the General Staff

19 I saw it. You said: It was not possible to implement all of that,

20 especially to meet all of these requirements because, as I said, many

21 things were in short supply, and you mention fuel and food. How do you

22 react? You had an order to provide the prisoners with sufficient food.

23 What did you do when you realised that you're not able to do that?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was more the job of the

25 camp commander. Our job, the job of the security organs, was just to

Page 31817

1 monitor to what extent it was being implemented. Our conclusion,

2 therefore, was that it was not feasible to implement all this. It was

3 certainly the wish of the camp commander to put this in practice, but the

4 reality was different.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And what did the commander do after having

6 received this order?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the camp commander?

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the commander, if he received

10 instead of 2.800 calories per person, if he received 1.500 or whatever,

11 he must have addressed his superior command to urge them to supply the

12 difference. I stress again, it was the month of September --

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, don't -- don't go further.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and the whole Republika Srpska

15 was suffering from deficits and shortages --

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Don't go further. I just wanted to know what he

17 did and you just said you suppose that he did something. You don't know

18 if he reported back to the superior units?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose he did --

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But you don't know --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because as I told you --

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But you don't know.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't go into his

24 documents.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you report to anybody about this lack of

Page 31818

1 sufficient food?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, along our own chain of

3 command we reported that supplies were insufficient, and if anything

4 could be done as human beings, as officers, as troops, we should do

5 something to improve this. But it's important that we did so on our part

6 and I'm sure that the camp commander did as well.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was now asking about your action. You said:

8 "Certainly, along our own chain of command ..."

9 Do you remember that you reported in writing?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In one of our reports, certainly.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one follow-up question.

13 Sir, if you look at page 53 --

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: He can't look at that.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, all right. But anyway I'm citing this for

16 everybody else. Regarding paragraph 6 of this document you were asked

17 whether -- and if I'm -- whether --

18 "Did you take that into consideration? Did you make any

19 proposals to release civilians?"

20 You say:

21 "No, we could not do that, it was not our mandate."

22 Now, not only is this document mandating you; it is actually

23 ordering you to do so. So to say it was not your mandate is not correct,

24 isn't it? Because this order gives you the mandate.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The order was global --

Page 31819

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, sir, let's --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- if it was written that we should

3 release --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's stop right there. This order did not only

5 mandate you; it ordered you to do so, didn't it?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In part, yes --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you were not right --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but our command had to --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you were not right to say you didn't have the

10 mandate?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, because we had also to receive

12 from our superior command a confirmed list based on the list that we had

13 prepared. We could not on our own do it based on the telegram sent down

14 from the main -- the chief commander.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: So are you saying that Mr. Mladic was not your

16 command, was not your chief commander? He's the highest authority in the

17 army, or he was, and he's given you an order to carry out.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course we honoured and respected

19 the fact that he was our chief commander, but I stressed that this

20 document had come as an attachment to the order of the command of the

21 1st Krajina Corps. They had to state expressly: On the orders of the

22 commander, release such and such people. That was not done. Not a

23 single document was made ordering us expressly as security organs to

24 release a specific number of people.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: So I should understand you to be saying that you

Page 31820

1 did nothing about this order until you could get an order from your

2 command, so this order didn't mean anything to you?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you can't say that it didn't

4 mean anything because it followed from another order. We were given

5 orders from the command of the 1st Krajina Corps and they were just

6 citing this order as the source.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just rephrase my question. You did nothing

8 in reaction to this order until you could get an order from your

9 immediate superior?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is my answer. That's the way

11 we operated.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Following up on the question of honourable Judge Moloto, could we

16 look at P2909.

17 Q. We were now looking at a document which says: Consider the

18 possibility of releasing civilians among the prisoners, whereas the

19 military prisoners should be provided with certain conditions as ordered.

20 Now, look at this regular report dated 29 August 1992.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's see the next page in B/C/S

22 and in English.

23 Q. You say here, and it is stated on this report that you wrote it,

24 Mr. Radinkovic:

25 "Based on the telegram of the Main Staff, we have engaged all our

Page 31821

1 forces in harmonising lists of prisoners of war which we" --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we go to the first page, please.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, let us look at

4 page 1.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was trying to find out where you were reading,

6 Mr. Stojanovic. I can't see where you were reading.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's on the next

8 page in B/C/S and in English, the last paragraph.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The B/C/S page was all right and

11 let's look at the English. It's the right page. And it will be

12 necessary to eventually move to the next page in English in order to

13 finish the paragraph. I'll quote:

14 "Pursuant to the telegram of the Main Staff, we have used all our

15 available forces to harmonise the list of prisoners of war which we have

16 managed to finalise and to submit, along with the necessary details, to

17 the command of the 1st Krajina Corps."

18 Q. What are you actually saying needs to be done here?

19 A. This is a written confirmation of what I have been trying to

20 explain. We have done all that we were able to, especially in view of

21 the order given us by our commander.

22 Q. In reviewing these lists, would it have speeded up your work to

23 check first who was a civilian and who was a military person in order to

24 be able to release some of them?

25 A. We have already done that work, but after we received this order

Page 31822

1 along with a copy of the telegram of the Main Staff, we reviewed our

2 lists again in order to arrive at a finalised list of people who should

3 leave the camp in accordance with the criteria handed down to us.

4 Q. For instance, the people who were brought from Prijedor, Kljuc,

5 and Sanski Most by the civilian police and placed in the POW camp, would

6 it be necessary, before you arrived at some operative information through

7 processing these people, to obtain also the opinion of civilian police

8 stations if perhaps they had some other operative information about the

9 persons who had been placed in the POW camp?

10 A. We insisted on that from the very moment the camp was opened, it

11 would have been very helpful to us; however, some of these structures

12 completely ignored us. And once they delivered these prisoners to the

13 camp, they washed their hands of it completely and left it to us to make

14 an evaluation and do the operative work in the camp itself for any

15 information we needed.

16 Q. Now, the document that I misquoted earlier --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we wait for one second.

18 Looking at this report and this list of 41 persons,

19 Mr. Radinkovic, do I have to understand that this being pursuant to the

20 order, that these are the civilian prisoners listed here?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this time distance I cannot say

22 on the basis of the names, but I assume that for the most part it is

23 precisely those people that we assumed were not dangerous and were

24 civilians and that they should leave as soon as possible.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because you were instructed to keep the

Page 31823

1 military prisoners, isn't it, so therefore I'm wondering whether this

2 list would contain any military prisoners?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just said that I assume that

4 it would be civilians primarily. Maybe there are some military men here

5 too. It's not in the description. But anyway, if it is stated that way,

6 I mean then it refers to that part of the order that we should primarily

7 be sending civilians. So that would be it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Again, another -- still in all the documents,

9 including this order and your explanation as well, it turns out again and

10 again that in a camp for prisoners of war you're detaining civilians.

11 Here again who should be released or not, isn't it true that if you are a

12 civilian, that you shouldn't be in a camp for prisoners of war,

13 especially not if it has been established that you are a civilian?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how much you followed

15 my introductory remarks. Civilians were brought to us, even minors. We

16 didn't ask for them, they were brought there. And upon entering the camp

17 they became POWs. That is how they were registered and then the ICRC

18 accepted that, and then of course there were civilians, yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, you told us that you could not receive

20 dead persons. You could receive minors?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If they were on the list, we had to

22 take them in; unfortunately, that's the way it was.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You referred so many times to the Geneva

24 Conventions. First of all, do you know which of the Geneva Conventions

25 deals with prisoners of war?

Page 31824

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How could I know just now

2 off-the-cuff?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then how are prisoners of war defined in the

4 Geneva Conventions? Is it if they are offered to me, irrespective of

5 health, age, et cetera, and if I put them on the list, they are prisoners

6 of war? Is that the situation in the Geneva Conventions? Or is it --

7 are the regulations different?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat, we did not make the lists

9 when people were brought into the camp. These were still people. Now,

10 were they civilians, were they military? These are the rules of -- these

11 are actually the lists that were made by the civilian structures. And

12 then there were people who were minors, there were people who were of

13 age, there were people who were ill, there were military conscripts, and

14 there were even those who had committed crimes and all of that, they were

15 brought to us. However, when entering the camp they were registered as

16 POWs. That's the rule that we had.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but is it -- of course I'm now questioning

18 whether these are the rules of the Geneva Conventions on which you relied

19 so heavily that you treated everyone in accordance with the Geneva

20 Conventions, whereas apparently you have your own concept of what a

21 prisoner of war is.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asserted and I continue to assert

23 that these -- I mean, well, the security of the camp. We - how do I put

24 this? - we made a superhuman effort that it be 100 per cent application

25 of the Geneva Conventions --

Page 31825

1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- on our part -- I repeat, on our

3 part.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. The Geneva Conventions say

5 that you may detain prisoners of war. But to detain civilians who had

6 not taken part in any way in war efforts, civilians of all ages, would

7 you agree with me that if they do not fall within the scope of prisoners

8 of war of the Geneva Conventions, that you did not make a hundred

9 per cent effort but that you rather defined yourself what you considered

10 to be prisoners of war and then treated them as prisoners of war without

11 having any knowledge or even it be established that they never took up

12 arms, that they were just civilians, sometimes very young ones, sometimes

13 very old ones? Would you agree that you have created your own

14 Geneva Conventions rather than to follow the Geneva Conventions as they

15 are adopted in 1949?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry that you interpret it

17 that way. We, our team, had we conducted the selection process outside

18 the camp in terms of who would be brought to the camp, it would have been

19 quite different, but this was done by the civilian, the military,

20 whoever, they compiled these lists and they brought in a certain number

21 of persons to us. We were not the ones -- actually, later on we made our

22 assessments and through our own work we proved what we proved, as can be

23 seen from documents, that there were people who were underage, people who

24 were ill, and everything else that you've already mentioned. So it's not

25 that we imposed any rules of our own. We really made an effort to work

Page 31826

1 within the boundaries of the Geneva Conventions, everything we could do

2 in that situation under these circumstances. The people who were brought

3 to us were brought to us the way they were brought to us. And the people

4 who were brought in, they didn't wear uniforms. How could we know?

5 There were no accompanying documents. It is through our own work that we

6 came to the conclusion that things were the way they were and that people

7 were who they were. Well, that's the way it was.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you those questions because you said several

9 times that you studied the Geneva Conventions. That was the basis for

10 asking you these questions.

11 Any further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, briefly.

13 Q. You - when I say "you," I mean the administration of the POW

14 camp - before you carry out security intelligence checks, before you

15 interview people, before you carry out a triage, can you know at any

16 point in time who was a POW and who was brought there as a civilian and

17 presented to you as somebody who should be checked and treated as a POW?

18 A. We had such cases as well that certain units down the chain of

19 command, before bringing in POWs they would mention the names and the

20 places of arrest and so on and so forth, so that is to say that that kind

21 of thing did happen but that was, say, 5 per cent -- well, to be very

22 literal about all of this. On the basis of lists, that's how it worked

23 for the most part. They would bring a list to that location and the

24 names would be read out. In 95 per cent of all cases we had no

25 information as to who it was that was coming in.

Page 31827

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. I beg your pardon, I mean what structure of prisoners was being

3 brought in.

4 Q. Abiding by the definition of a POW, once you've carried out your

5 checks did you say: In our view, this is a POW, and in our view this

6 other person was brought here on wrong premises and is not a POW?

7 A. Certainly. And again I have to say that a great many people who

8 were brought there, had there not been for these winds of war, they

9 wouldn't have come to a POW camp in the first place. But after all, this

10 was an umbrella to prevent their further suffering.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the last

12 sentence.

13 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters could not hear the last sentence.

14 Mr. Stojanovic, in my questioning it turned out that there was

15 some -- a possible problem with what the definition of what a prisoner of

16 war is. Now, you put the question to the witness: Abiding by the

17 definition of a prisoner of war ...

18 Could you exactly tell the witness and tell me what you consider

19 the definition of a prisoner of war, from where do you take that, what is

20 it? Because you're referring to the definition, which apparently there

21 was some dispute about it. Could you tell us what you had in mind

22 exactly?

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I interpret

24 the concept of a prisoner of war, I believe that a prisoner of war is a

25 person who, as a member of an enemy army, at one point in time during

Page 31828

1 operations is taken prisoner or has surrendered. And under this

2 definition I include persons who joined the units of the enemy army at --

3 at a given point in time were taken prisoner or surrendered to the other

4 warring party.

5 JUDGE ORIE: If that's how the witness understood it as well,

6 then we could ask the witness whether his answer stands or whether he

7 would like to make any changes.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In which sense would I change this,

9 the definition of a prisoner of war. Quite simply, abiding by the order

10 issued when the camp was established, point 1 said that from the moment a

11 person was brought in or handed over by a particular organ legitimately

12 becomes a POW. That meant full stop for us.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I leave it to that.

14 Any further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I was told, Your Honour, that

16 the last sentence of the witness's previous answer was not recorded in

17 the transcript so I'm going to repeat that question.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, perhaps we ask the witness to repeat the last

19 part of his answer, that's the part that is missing.

20 Witness, I'm asking you now to tell us what you said and which

21 was not recorded. You said:

22 "But after all, this was an umbrella to prevent their further

23 suffering."

24 What did you say after that? I'm not asking you to say anything

25 new but just to repeat what you then said.

Page 31832

1 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that we take the break now and that we

2 resume at 1.30 so that we can first deal with this matter which is of

3 some urgency.

4 We will take a break and we will resume at 1.30.

5 --- Recess taken at 1.11 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, thank you for coming to the courtroom.

8 The Chamber is considering your request to allow Mr. Sasa Lukic to

9 examine witnesses, and in that context we have a few questions for you.

10 First of all, Mr. Sasa Lukic, is he on the list, is he eligible

11 for being assigned as counsel as far as you're aware of?

12 MR. LUKIC: I don't think that he is on 45 list.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then if he's not, then of course we would

14 have to look at -- because other team members who are on the Rule 55 list

15 of course -- 45 list, I'm sorry, of course a lot of checks have been done

16 in respect to them. And if Mr. Sasa Lukic is not on that list, I would

17 like to know a few more things -- the Chamber would like to know a few

18 more things.

19 First of all, is he fully qualified to act as counsel in his home

20 state?

21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, he is, Your Honour, yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And since when?

23 MR. LUKIC: I have CVs here. We tried to send it to you and to

24 your staff.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

Page 31833

1 MR. LUKIC: So I tried to print it because it couldn't pass

2 through --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's too heavy, that CV to -- no, no, no, I'm

4 just kidding.

5 MR. LUKIC: It couldn't pass -- yeah. If you don't mind, I would

6 kindly ask the usher to just distribute and then it may be easier to

7 talk.

8 JUDGE ORIE: It's easier to put further questions to you. I must

9 say, I've got no idea, Mr. Lukic, about admission to the bar in -- I take

10 it in Serbia.

11 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Whether -- what the requirements are, whether it's

13 just a matter of exams or whether there is any traineeship which you

14 would need to --

15 MR. LUKIC: Well, to be self-employed there is a special exam,

16 but to work for another lawyer as he did previously --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. LUKIC: -- you have to pass bar exam.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's --

20 MR. LUKIC: So he passed both, bar exam at 2012 and defence law

21 exam at 2013.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I even see that he's a fast learner. I would

23 wish that I would say that for myself, Mr. Lukic, but I see as far as I

24 understand there's no language problem. I go from bottom up. Experience

25 in criminal cases since --

Page 31834

1 MR. LUKIC: 9.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- 2009. Is that before Serbian courts or is that

3 before the ICTY?

4 MR. LUKIC: No, he worked only as a case manager on Beara team --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. LUKIC: -- in 2007, but as a lawyer he practiced only in

7 Serbia --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

9 MR. LUKIC: -- in front of the courts.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Now you say experience in criminal law cases since

11 2009.

12 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: He took his bar exam in 2012. Could you tell us

14 what the experience in criminal law cases were between 2009 and 2012?

15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. He had a lot, actually, because

16 you can defend anybody if the sentence -- prescribed sentence is less

17 than five years.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah. So you don't even need to be formally

19 admitted to the bar if you --

20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 MR. LUKIC: As a law trainee you can do that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Self-employed since June 2013. Yes, he

24 worked in your law firm I see --

25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. And although bearing the same last

Page 31835

1 name, we are not blood related.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You are not --

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put another question.

4 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The last entry is an internship in 2007 at the

6 ICTY.

7 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where was that --

9 MR. LUKIC: For Beara, Beara Defence.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the Defence. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then he has worked in your law firm, he is acting as

12 counsel, whether fully qualified or for the smaller cases. Do you have

13 any information about any possibly disciplinary measures --

14 MR. LUKIC: No.

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- taken?

16 MR. LUKIC: I can vouch for him that he does not have any

17 disciplinary cases.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Any disciplinary cases against him.

19 MR. LUKIC: I can tell you that at least at any moment in time he

20 has at least 200 active cases plus new cases, so he's really --

21 JUDGE ORIE: That's pretty scary, especially if you also have to

22 deal with cases here then.

23 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just go through -- yes. Is the only reason

25 why he's not on the Rule 45 list that the seven years do not -- the seven

Page 31836

1 years of relevant experience do not apply?

2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Now -- yes, and that would take some time because

4 he -- even if you would take the traineeship time into consideration then

5 it starts only in 2009 which would take him to --

6 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- 2016 before he has the seven years.

8 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Have you thought about -- is he a member of the ADC?

10 He can't be, I take it, if -- well --

11 MR. LUKIC: He can be member of ADC although not on a 45 rule

12 list --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because you have to be admitted to the

14 practice --

15 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- which he is, competent in criminal --

17 international criminal law without any years requirement -- no, it's also

18 seven years required for membership of the -- full membership of the --

19 MR. LUKIC: Yes. He could be associate [overlapping speakers] --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Associate, yes. Not a full member yet.

21 Now perhaps you could remind me, associate members are also

22 subject to the disciplinary system if anything would go wrong? Have you

23 verified that?

24 MR. LUKIC: I --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just -- I don't have it on the top of my head.

Page 31837

1 MR. LUKIC: I've never -- I've never heard that anybody who is

2 not a full member who does not practice has any procedure against him

3 since --

4 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, I do understand that, but I don't know how

5 the rules are. If you're an associate member and, for example, if you're

6 not assigned as counsel but if you are acting more or less as counsel

7 by -- through examining witnesses, whether you'd be subject to the --

8 certainly I take it to the rules of the ADC but whether you're also

9 subject to the system of disciplinary procedure. We'd just like to

10 know --

11 MR. LUKIC: I should check, but probably yes. Whoever

12 practices --

13 JUDGE ORIE: You know what we say to witnesses if they say

14 "probably."

15 MR. LUKIC: Probably, yeah, but I cannot --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I take it that you'll verify that and we

17 might look into the rules as well.

18 Yes, well, the last requirement for full membership is, apart

19 from disciplinary proceedings, that the person involved is not found

20 guilty in relevant criminal proceedings against him or her. That's -- I

21 mean, I'm just going through the list.

22 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, you cannot enroll into bar if there is active

23 proceeding against you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: But this is also about proceedings that have been

25 resulted in a conviction. Would that also be a bar to be admitted to the

Page 31838

1 bar?

2 MR. LUKIC: It depends.

3 JUDGE ORIE: It depends.

4 MR. LUKIC: If it's -- if the time passes, then it can be

5 annulled; but if it's something fresh, of course.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay --

7 MR. LUKIC: Only for the lighter crimes it can be annulled, not

8 for grave crimes --

9 JUDGE ORIE: If time passes --

10 MR. LUKIC: But he's too young --

11 JUDGE ORIE: To be born in 1981, there's not much time yet to

12 have passed since any possible convictions. Again, I'm not suggesting

13 anything, but I'm just going through the list of what is required if you

14 would become a member of the ADC and what the consequences are. Then ...

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: We have no further questions, but we'd like to hear

17 the position of the Prosecution on allowing Mr. Sasa Lukic to examine

18 witnesses.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, I'd like to see the resume, though I don't

20 think we have any significant problems. The only issue that I can think

21 of is as a member of the Beara Defence team, I think it's always safer if

22 on issues of conflict of interest that the -- General Mladic should waive

23 a conflict if there could be one. As we can imagine a conflict between

24 Colonel Beara and General Mladic.

25 MR. LUKIC: But Mr. Lukic did not deal with anything substantial.

Page 31839

1 He was a case manager on that case. He was not a legal assistant at that

2 time, still being a student.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Don't you think that a case manager would have --

4 may have knowledge or may have -- which he could either use or not use in

5 another case. I mean, even if you're not involved in substance, your

6 privileged knowledge might cause a problem already.

7 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, we can ask Mr. Mladic, but I don't think that

8 there could be anything.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To be on the safe side that would be preferable.

11 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, of course, waivers are

13 certainly important, if I look at the rules of the code of conduct, but

14 are not the final answer to -- so therefore it's not just a matter if I

15 have a waiver then everything is okay. Then that should be borne well in

16 mind. I remember the rules on that, I think it was in 33 or 35, I

17 don't -- forgive me if I'm -- do not have them all --

18 MR. LUKIC: Only if to be fully informed, Your Honours and my

19 learned friend, Mr. Sasa Lukic is on our team already.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 MR. LUKIC: So if there was any conflict of interest --

22 JUDGE ORIE: You should have verified it already.

23 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That's for sure, so that -- you're pointing at

25 something that should have been considered already in the past, but it's

Page 31840

1 better to do it now rather than to forget to do it at all. So if you

2 would carefully look at the rules covering conflict of interest -- I

3 think it's not 33 or 35, it's somewhere in the 11 or something like that.

4 It's the code of conduct which deals extensively with how to deal with a

5 conflict of interest if it arises after you have already assisted one

6 client. That's one. And the other matter still to be verified was what

7 exactly? It slipped -- yes, the disciplinary -- the applicability of

8 disciplinary --

9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, my colleague Ivetic checked. Disciplinary

10 proceeding can be instigated only against a full member of the ADC --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and not to associate members.

12 MR. LUKIC: Not to associate members.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently assuming that associate members are not

14 acting, and of course what we are doing here is to make an exception and

15 would -- we would then allow him to act.

16 This information, Mr. McCloskey, does that change anything in

17 your position?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Finally, of course, I think the Chamber

20 has also some powers in this respect to -- as far as the right of

21 audience is concerned, but of course that is not the same as disciplinary

22 measures. I think we have received all the information we needed. We'll

23 let you know what our decision is.

24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And we will do it quickly.

Page 31841

1 Then is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

2 MR. IVETIC: We are, Your Honours. That would be

3 Mr. Milenko Jevdjevic.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

5 MR. IVETIC: While we wait for him, Your Honours, I do have one

6 procedural issue. I had identified some additional schematics with the

7 witness during proofing and had advised the Prosecution and the Chambers

8 of those, but two of those actually are not on our Rule 65 ter list.

9 They are numbers 1D05361 and 1D05362, so I think I would formally need to

10 ask leave to add those to the Rule 65 ter list.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against adding them to the list,

12 which of course is not a decision on admission yet?

13 MS. HASAN: Good afternoon. No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then leave is granted to add 1D05361 and 1D05362 to

15 the 65 ter exhibit list.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic, in your proofing note you are

17 referring to a third document, what about that?

18 MR. IVETIC: The third document is on the Prosecution's 65 ter

19 list and therefore does not need to be added. That would be 31890.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. I learn every day. Thank you.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Jevdjevic. Before you give

23 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration that

24 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The

25 text is now handed out to you.

Page 31842

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, greetings to

2 everybody in the courtroom. I solemnly declare that I will speak the

3 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 WITNESS: MILENKO JEVDJEVIC

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated. Mr. Jevdjevic, one line was

7 already sufficient to make me aware that you are very quick speaker.

8 Could you please slow down when talking, otherwise the interpreters will

9 be unable to interpret for us what you say.

10 Mr. Jevdjevic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic. You find

11 Mr. Ivetic to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of

12 Mr. Mladic.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

15 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

16 Q. Good day, sir. Could I ask you to please state your full name

17 for the record.

18 A. My name is Milenko Jevdjevic.

19 Q. And, sir, could you first tell us where and when you were born?

20 A. I was born on 11 December 1963 in Rogatica.

21 Q. And where is it that you now reside, sir?

22 A. I now live in Banja Luka.

23 Q. I'd like to ask you a few questions about your educational

24 background, but I'd like you to please focus on just your military

25 schooling and I'd ask you to give us a brief resume of the military

Page 31843

1 educational institutions that you completed.

2 A. In terms of military schooling, I completed the military high

3 school in 1982, then the military academy for ground forces,

4 specialisation signals in 1986, and the General Staff school of the Army

5 of Yugoslavia in 1999 [as interpreted].

6 Q. And now I'd like to ask you about your education and training

7 relative to radio relay communications in the army. Could you please

8 tell us what specific training you underwent in this field?

9 A. As part of the regular schooling at the military academy, as part

10 of the regular subjects, we studied all radio relay devices and systems

11 that the army had at its disposal at the time.

12 Q. And did you have occasion to perform duties relating to

13 communications through radio relay devices during your career?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. At what levels did you perform such duties during your career?

16 A. As an officer serving in the branch of communications I was first

17 commander of the signals platoon, then commander of the signals company,

18 then commander of the signals battalion, and chief of communications in

19 the corps.

20 Q. And now I would like to ask you about electronic surveillance or

21 radio intercept operators. What schooling or training was required in

22 the JNA for those type of officers?

23 A. In the course of my schooling and later when I served in the

24 units of the Yugoslav People's Army and the Army of Republika Srpska, we

25 underwent all the training necessary for us to successfully protect

Page 31844

1 information passed on through communications equipment.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Excuse me for interrupting for one question.

3 You said in the previous answer you were chief of the

4 communications in the corps. Which corps are you referring to,

5 Mr. Jevdjevic?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the 5th Corps of the Army of

7 Republika Srpska established in 1997. That means 18 to 24 months after

8 the war.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

10 MR. IVETIC:

11 Q. Now, you've detailed for us the training that a radio relay

12 communications or signals officer would have gone through and the

13 education that you went through. I'd like to ask you about an

14 electronic -- counter warfare -- counter-electronics warfare officer in

15 the JNA, what type of training would that individual have to go through

16 to attain that position?

17 A. Officers and NCOs and soldiers involved in counter-electronic

18 warfare or radio relay reconnaissance were also supposed to go regular

19 military schools and study these subjects and undergo training in units

20 for counter-electronic warfare and radio reconnaissance.

21 Q. And in relation to the JNA system, how long did that training

22 last for someone to be qualified to serve in a post as a

23 counter-electronic warfare officer?

24 A. In the former Yugoslav People's Army, there was a whole arm of

25 the service for radio reconnaissance and counter-electronic operations.

Page 31845

1 The officers who worked in such units went through the same training as

2 I, just as the others who were in armoured units and other units. In the

3 regular schooling there was a whole course dedicated to these subjects.

4 In counter-electronic warfare units, soldiers who came to do their

5 regular military service underwent a six-month training in order to be

6 able to perform their duties properly.

7 Q. Now I'd like to return to yourself again and your career. What

8 ranks did you hold in the army during the course of your career?

9 A. My first rank as an officer after completing the military academy

10 was second lieutenant, and I finished my military career in the rank of

11 colonel.

12 Q. When did your professional service in the military end?

13 A. 2001.

14 Q. Sir, what occupation, if any, did you pursue after your military

15 service ended?

16 A. After completing my military service I found a job in Telekom

17 Srpska company, where I continue working.

18 Q. And can you tell us what job or duties you have within the

19 Telekom of Republika Srpska, what job or duties you had or now have?

20 A. I work on maintaining telecommunications systems and also

21 supervise telecommunication services.

22 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to ask you to tell us where was your first

23 military service post upon completion of the military academies that

24 you've listed for us?

25 A. After finishing the military academy I was appointed platoon

Page 31846

1 commander of a communications platoon in the Uzice garrison.

2 Q. Okay. And what were the dates of deployment at that position?

3 A. I remained in that position for two years, and I was appointed

4 company commander of a telecommunications company, also in Uzice.

5 Q. Okay. As a point of clarification, the transcript records you

6 saying you were appointed a commander of a telecommunications company in

7 Uzice. Are there telecommunications companies in the army or is that

8 a --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Signals.

10 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. The interpreters have corrected that.

11 Q. Now, did you eventually come to join the Army of

12 Republika Srpska?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you tell us what units in the VRS you were assigned to and

15 during what time-period?

16 A. In the Army of Republika Srpska I was appointed commander of the

17 signals battalion in the Drina Corps. And after the end of the war or

18 just before the war ended, I also carried out the duties of commander of

19 the Birac Infantry Brigade in Sekovici, then chief of communications of

20 the 5th Corps, then commander of the Visegrad Infantry Brigade in

21 Visegrad, and I completed my military career as assistant commander of

22 the 5th Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska for morale, information,

23 legal, and religious affairs.

24 Q. Could you identify for us when it was that you joined the Army of

25 Republika Srpska and in what position and then the date when you would

Page 31847

1 have been appointed commander of the signals battalion in the

2 Drina Corps?

3 A. I joined the Army of Republika Srpska in the month of May 1992.

4 I was appointed battalion commander of the signals battalion immediately

5 after the establishment of the Drina Corps in November 1992.

6 Q. And just to complete the picture, then, from May to November 1992

7 where were you?

8 A. Within a shorter period of time I carried out duties in

9 Bosanska Krupa and the communications regiment of the Main Staff, the

10 67th Regiment of the Main Staff.

11 Q. Okay, sir, now I would like to focus on the time-period you were

12 komandant of the communications battalion in the Drina Corps. Could you

13 tell us what your duties were at that post?

14 A. My duties were to carry out communications plan of the

15 Drina Corps towards the superior command, that is to say, the Main Staff,

16 and also to subordinate units, that is to say, brigades of the

17 Drina Corps.

18 Q. And how many other personnel were subordinated to you within the

19 communications battalion of the Drina Corps?

20 A. In the communications battalion during war time I had an average

21 of 40 to 60 men. Out of them, about 20 were officers and among them

22 there were about ten officers who had completed military schools for

23 communication before the war.

24 Q. And in relation to the remaining members of your battalion, what

25 military training had they had in relation to signals or communications?

Page 31848

1 A. Before coming to the battalion, a number of soldiers received

2 training in the regiment of the Main Staff and then were transferred to

3 subordinate units. So a number of soldiers, young soldiers, trained

4 signalsmen came to my signals battalion. A number of soldiers after

5 mobilisation were trained by us at our battalion.

6 Q. Did you have anyone working in the communications battalion of

7 the Drina Corps as a radio relay operator that lacked either of the

8 trainings that you have identified, who had not gone through one of the

9 trainings that you have identified?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Could you describe for us what is the key difference between a

12 radio device on the one hand and a radio relay device on the other hand?

13 A. A key difference is that in essence one can say that with radio

14 devices one establishes radio communication, whereas with radio relay

15 equipment, radio relay communication is established. Basically, radio

16 relay communication is directed radio communication. Most radio devices

17 have antennae that radiate signals in all directions equally; whereas in

18 the case of radio relay equipment, the force of the antenna is aimed only

19 in a particular direction and that is how the signal becomes stronger and

20 also protection of these electromagnetic waves and the communication

21 involved is enhanced. One of the main differences is that radio relay

22 communication, because of all of these things that I've already

23 explained, can be considered to be far more protected and reliable than

24 mere radio communication.

25 Q. What radio relay devices did you have at your disposal at the

Page 31849

1 Drina Corps for transmittal of signal with either subordinate units or

2 superior units?

3 A. We had three types of radio relay equipment: Radio relay

4 equipment that was marked FM-200, then marked RU-800, and finally RRU-1.

5 Q. Okay. And in relation to each of those radio relay devices you

6 have listed, how would you compare or describe their age and technology

7 level?

8 A. FM-200 was the device that was about 15 or 20 years old at the

9 time. The RRU-1 in that period of time was the most recent one, it was

10 about ten years ago, whereas the RU-800 in that period of the war was

11 already over 40 years old.

12 Q. Do you recall the operating frequency range of both the RRU-800

13 and the RRU-1 radio relay devices?

14 A. RU-800 and FM-200 operated from 610 to 960 megahertz, and RRU-1

15 operates within a range from 235 to 280 megahertz.

16 Q. And what was the effective range of transmission of signal for

17 these radio relay devices?

18 A. In the rules and regulations, FM-200 and RU-800 have a range of

19 up to 50 kilometres, whereas RRU-1 has a range of up to 30 kilometres.

20 Q. Are there any --

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic --

22 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- just to avoid any confusion, in line 11 of the

24 current page you are recorded as having said RRU-800. I think you

25 referred to RU-800, only one R, is that correct, because --

Page 31850

1 MR. IVETIC: I should have referred to two R's, it's radio relay

2 unit, so it's really RRU-800.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But the answer relates to RU-800.

4 JUDGE ORIE: The witness consistently used RU-800 and RRU-1.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's the reason why I wanted to clarify --

6 MR. IVETIC: That's not what I heard but we can clarify with the

7 witness.

8 Q. Sir, you're recorded as having referred to a radio relay device

9 as an RU-800. Is that in fact how you referred to that radio relay

10 device?

11 A. RRU-800 is its proper name. Perhaps I've been speaking too fast.

12 RRU-800. And for the transcript, RRU-1 works from 235 to 270 megahertz.

13 That's what I said, not 280.

14 Q. And if we get one more question in before the break, are there

15 any atmospheric or terrestrial factors which can affect the transmittal

16 of the electromagnetic signal from one RRU device to another RRU device?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you briefly describe some of them?

19 A. There is a series of factors that affect the transmittal of

20 electromagnetic waves and signals of radio relay equipment. It is

21 meteorological conditions as well. So, for example, if it's raining or

22 snowing, then that has a negative effect on the transmittal of

23 electromagnetic waves. Also, the afforestation of the ground can have an

24 effect on electromagnetic waves. Then also the quality of the land, the

25 soil, if there is a high metal content, then that kind of soil sometimes

Page 31851

1 prevents the propagation of such waves. Of course, the main barrier

2 would be a physical barrier.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I am looking at the clock, but I'm at

4 the same time seeking one tiny little matter to be clarified.

5 Witness, you said:

6 "In the rules and regulations FM-200 and" then I take it RRU-800

7 "have a range of up to 50 kilometres, whereas RRU-1 has a range of up to

8 30 kilometres."

9 Now, from my understanding, rules and regulations do not finally

10 determine what the range is. Do I have to understand this, that the

11 rules and regulations require that FM-200 and RRU-800 should perform at

12 least well on the range of up to 50 kilometres, that is to 50 kilometres;

13 and RRU should perform well at a distance of 30 kilometres? Is that how

14 I have to understand it because --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the boundary for the

16 use of the signal.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and what actually happened, how far the signal

18 travels is -- can be different, perhaps even worse or even better than

19 what the rules require them to do, how to perform at a certain distance?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

22 Then, Mr. Ivetic, we'll adjourn for the day.

23 And for you as well, Mr. Jevdjevic, we'll adjourn for the day and

24 we would like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same

25 courtroom. But I first want to instruct you that you should not speak or