150401IT

Page 33981

1 made do with our own means and that lasted approximately until the end of

2 June when, as a result of combat operations --

3 JUDGE ORIE: You're telling me a long story and my question was

4 far more simple. When you said the communications between the east and

5 the west had broken down and when I say -- if I read paragraph 46, it

6 seems that you are there specifically giving an example of the

7 communications between Pale and Banja Luka. Is Pale west or east? Is

8 Banja Luka east or west? Is that included in paragraph 46?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pale is in the eastern part of

10 Republika Srpska. Banja Luka is in the western part.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- so when you are now talking about

12 eastern and western part that would divide Pale from Banja Luka.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

15 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed but I'll first introduce you to the

16 witness.

17 Mr. Erceg, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi. You find

18 Mr. Traldi to your right. Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

22 Q. Good morning, sir.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. Sir, you testified in the Karadzic case; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 33982

1 Q. And you were interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor in 2001

2 and 2002, as you mention in your statement. Is it your position that you

3 were telling the truth on all those occasions?

4 A. I suppose I was. What I saw as the truth at that time, I said to

5 the Prosecutors. Now whether something will change in my testimony now,

6 I don't know, because I forgot certain things. And some things I will

7 probably put differently, not because I'm changing the facts, but that's

8 the way I see them now.

9 Q. Now, you explained similarly in the Karadzic case that you'd

10 forgotten a number of things over the years since you'd been interviewed,

11 as, of course, we all have over the last decade or so, and you testified

12 that as a result what I said -- what you said in the interviews was

13 obviously more accurate. Do you stand by that evidence today?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, you also mentioned during your 92 ter attestation this

16 morning that there might be things that you said differently today than

17 you had in your statement that was tendered because you had learned

18 things in the course of preparing for your testimony in this trial. And

19 I'd just ask if you will agree to, if you are giving an answer based on

20 something that you've only learned in the last year or so or in the

21 course of preparing for your testimony here, specifically tell us that

22 the information you're providing is information you acquired recently.

23 Can we agree to proceed that way?

24 A. We can. I suppose there will be no change in the substance but I

25 may express myself differently on a particular subject.

Page 33983

1 Q. And the statement that you attested to this morning, that's the

2 same statement you gave to the Karadzic Defence and which was admitted

3 into evidence in that trial, except that the Defence has redacted some

4 references to adjudicated facts and that you made one correction; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now before I move to the substance of your evidence, in your

7 interviews with the Office of the Prosecutor you claimed variously that

8 you didn't know anything about the army, didn't have anything to do with

9 the army, and didn't know how the army organised its affairs. Do you

10 stand by that evidence today?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Sir, then I want to turn to your evidence about the political

13 authorities in the ARK with which you are familiar.

14 Now, your statement repeats assertions that all the communication

15 lines between Pale and the ARK had been severed, and you stated in

16 paragraph 34 that the ARK institutions were formed because of the lack of

17 communications with Pale. In fact, the ARK Crisis Staff was formed

18 pursuant to instructions from Pale; right?

19 A. I suppose that there were some instructions according to which

20 they were established, but I don't know which instructions. I didn't

21 have the opportunity to see that documentation. During the last few

22 days, the lawyers showed me one document according to which the

23 Crisis Staff in our municipality might have been formed, but according to

24 the instructions, there was supposed to be no Crisis Staff of the

25 Krajina.

Page 33984

1 Q. Well, sir --

2 A. I'm sorry, I was in a position to read Djeric's letter addressing

3 this subject.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Erceg, you're moving away from the question

5 so -- the question was focused on the interruption of communications.

6 What Mr. Traldi put to you is that if you say it was formed because there

7 was no communication, Mr. Traldi puts it to you that the very

8 establishment of the Crisis Staff was based on an instruction from Pale

9 which then - and that's implicit in his question - would then have been

10 communicated to you. That's the issue Mr. Traldi is focusing on.

11 Could you please respond to that.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say this. At the moment the

13 Crisis Staff was formed, I, in that year, 1992, did not see any document

14 saying that a Crisis Staff should be formed. And it was nevertheless

15 formed. Now I can only assume that Brdjanin had that document and on its

16 basis formed the Crisis Staff. At that time, whenever you talked to

17 people, whatever anybody from any institution said, you believed them,

18 and so I believed Mr. Brdjanin when he said there was a need to form the

19 Crisis Staff. I never asked him if there was any document on the basis

20 of which to do it because I didn't need to, and now only I saw during

21 proofing that such a document exists. I saw material documentary

22 evidence instructing the formation of the Crisis Staff, and I also saw in

23 that document that there was supposed to be no Crisis Staff of the

24 Krajina, only of the municipalities. However, a Crisis Staff of the

25 Krajina was formed at the initiative of Mr. Brdjanin.

Page 33985

1 MR. TRALDI:

2 Q. Sir, a document explicitly saying that there was not supposed to

3 be any Crisis Staff of the Krajina, no such document is mentioned in your

4 statement. Can you explain to us what document this purportedly is?

5 A. When I was writing my statement, I was not in a position to

6 ascertain whether such a document exists or what it says. However,

7 during the past few days, I saw that there were perhaps even two

8 documents allowing the formation of the Crisis Staff. One is the

9 instruction of the prime minister, Mr. Djeric; and one document issued by

10 the Main Board of the SDS party I believe in 1991. It's called:

11 Instruction on the organisation and action in emergency situations. This

12 document specifies that Crisis Staffs may be formed in municipalities.

13 Q. In fact, they direct that Crisis Staffs are to be formed in

14 municipalities; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, regarding the formation of the ARK Crisis Staff, if we could

17 have 65 ter 32351, page 41, and this will be part of one of your

18 interviews with the Office of the Prosecutor.

19 Now, we see -- and the transcript is in English so I'll read it

20 slowly. We see at the top of the page that the attorney interviewing you

21 says:

22 "In the gazette it was published that you as president of the

23 Executive Council adopted a decision on the formation of the Crisis Staff

24 of the Autonomous Region of Krajina."

25 Below your initials we see that the interpreter says:

Page 33986

1 "Yes.

2 And below that, that you say:

3 "And that is a verification actually of that which we had

4 received from the central authorities in Pale."

5 And if we scroll down to the bottom of the page, just to be

6 pellucidly clear, the attorney interviewing you says:

7 "So if what you are saying is you received orders from Pale to

8 establish the Crisis Staff in the Autonomous Region of Krajina?"

9 And the interpreter, of course, relays your answer, which is:

10 "Yes."

11 Now do you stand by the truthfulness and accuracy of the portion

12 of your interview with the Office of the Prosecutor that I've just read

13 to you?

14 A. I do stand by the truthfulness of this part of the interview, but

15 I have to repeat. At that time I didn't know whether documents according

16 to which Crisis Staffs may be formed exist or not, but I allowed for the

17 possibility that some people who wanted to avert a danger were acting on

18 their own in the best faith. In this case, I trusted Mr. Brdjanin when

19 he said that a Crisis Staff should be formed. I didn't ask him to

20 produce a document to show me. If I had held such a document in my

21 hands, telling us that we don't have the right to form a Crisis Staff, I

22 would not have continued. I would not have done that as president of the

23 Executive Council.

24 Q. Sir, I'm going to stop you --

25 A. We had to act quickly in that situation.

Page 33987

1 Q. Is it right that as of the time you were interviewed in 2002, you

2 understood that what had happened on the 5th of May, 1992, was that you

3 issued a decision forming the ARK Crisis Staff pursuant to instructions

4 from Pale which had been relaid to you by Mr. Brdjanin; yes or no?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the instructions from Mr. Djeric, which you mention in

7 paragraph 33 of your statement and mentioned this morning, you believe

8 they were received in Banja Luka within two or three of days of when they

9 were issued in late April 1992; right?

10 A. I didn't understand this.

11 Q. Well, the Djeric instructions that you refer to in your statement

12 and that you referred to this morning, they were issued on the 26th of

13 April, 1992, and your belief is they were received in Banja Luka within

14 two or three days of when they were issued; right?

15 A. I don't know that. I don't know whether that instruction had

16 reached Banja Luka. I saw it for the first time two or three days ago,

17 so I don't know what the situation was in that beginning of April, but I

18 will repeat, I believed that Brdjanin was acting in good faith when he

19 said we have instructions to form a Crisis Staff. I trusted him.

20 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32349, page 2.

21 Q. As it comes up, this will be part of your sworn testimony in the

22 Karadzic case.

23 JUDGE ORIE: D407 is what exactly? Is that the Djeric letter?

24 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, I believe I may have had an exhibit number

25 from the wrong case. I should have said D840, and that's the Djeric

Page 33988

1 instructions according to the list we got from the Defence.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, you -- because I'm a bit puzzled by

3 the following. Witness, you said you saw that document only three days

4 ago, the document which is referred to as the Djeric letter. Is

5 that ... is that the case? I'm speaking to you. That's difficult for

6 you to know who is speaking to you because the interpreters will

7 translate my words. But the Presiding Judge is addressing you. Is it --

8 that document, the Djeric letter, did you see it only three days ago?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And was that the document that you was shown to you

11 by the Karadzic Defence as well?

12 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

13 JUDGE ORIE: What then exactly is the document paragraph 33 is

14 referring to? Could -- perhaps, Mr. Lukic, could you assist? I'm

15 talking about paragraph 33. I have been shown document D407. And that

16 would be -- let me just check whether we can -- I find it in the tables.

17 If someone would find it easily on the ... could someone assist me in --

18 I'm trying to do my utmost best but ...

19 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, our records indicate that D407 in the

20 Karadzic case, the case for which the statement was taken, is the Djeric

21 instructions to Crisis Staffs dated the 26th of April, the document I'd

22 asked about.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Witness, apparently in your statement

24 given to the Karadzic Defence, you already commented on that document and

25 you explained certain matters in relation to what is dealt with in that

Page 33989

1 document as well. And that's more than three days ago, isn't it, that

2 you were interviewed in preparation for your Karadzic statement.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could have talked about that

4 document only because I knew it existed, but considering the whole

5 situation that we knew each other --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness -- witness, let me stop you there.

7 Your statement reads and you attested to your statement as the

8 statement given to the Karadzic Defence, "I have been shown document

9 D407," that means that already far more than three days ago you have seen

10 that document. So I'm puzzled by your evidence where you say, "I only

11 saw it three days ago"?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you honestly, I'm not sure

13 about this. I don't know whether I'd seen it in my contacts with the

14 Karadzic Defence. Maybe I saw it somewhere on the screen. But

15 physically, the hard copy, I saw it only when the lawyer, Lukic, showed

16 it to me. Maybe of assistance could be the fact that if there is a

17 connection --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you be more cautious when you give

19 answers to questions. If you say, "I only saw it three days ago," where

20 in the Karadzic statement it says already that you have been shown -- of

21 course, I couldn't exclude that it was on the screen or something like

22 that. But that's -- you should be more cautious and more precise in your

23 answers because it's not the first time this morning that we notice that

24 imprecisions are there.

25 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed, but in two minutes we'll take a

Page 33990

1 break.

2 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32349, page 2.

3 Q. It's the portion of your sworn testimony in the Karadzic case.

4 Now, here, you're asked:

5 "With respect to this total breakdown of communication that you

6 allege, you also acknowledge in paragraph 4 that in some mysterious way

7 the instructions on establishing Crisis Staff, that is, the Djeric

8 instructions of approximately April 26, somehow made it through this

9 impenetrable barrier, right? You acknowledge that the Djeric

10 instructions were received?"

11 And you answer:

12 "Yes, as far as I can remember I had them, but I'm not sure when.

13 I don't know if it was those first few days when it arrived in

14 Banja Luka. I imagine it was within two or three days."

15 So, first, is your testimony this morning that you never saw the

16 document in any way until your preparation for your Karadzic testimony

17 correct; or is your sworn Karadzic testimony that "as far as I can

18 remember, I had the Djeric instructions" correct?

19 A. I cannot answer this question with any degree of certainty. I

20 have now total confusion in my head about this. What I had or didn't

21 have when I was preparing for my Karadzic testimony. I know only that

22 what's in my head now is that I only read this document two or three days

23 ago.

24 Q. Let me ask the question very precisely. Do you or do you not

25 stand behind your sworn Karadzic testimony that, as far as you can

Page 33991

1 remember, you had those instructions in 1992?

2 A. I can take that position. Let it be that way. I stand by it.

3 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I see we are at the time for the break

4 now.

5 JUDGE ORIE: We are. The witness may follow the usher.

6 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes after the break,

7 Mr. Erceg.

8 [The witness stands down]

9 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

13 in the courtroom, just briefly one of the remaining issues from the

14 testimony of Vojo Kupresanin.

15 On the 13th of February of this year, the Prosecution e-mailed

16 the Chamber advising that it had uploaded into e-court the document

17 bearing 65 ter number 31772a, being two pages of Kupresanin's testimony

18 from the Karadzic case, and requesting that, subject to the Defence's

19 agreement, these pages be admitted into evidence as Exhibit P7010.

20 On the same day, the Chamber e-mailed the Defence to see whether

21 it objects to the admission of the document.

22 On the 26th of March, the Chamber instructed the Defence to

23 respond by the end of that day. The Defence responded via e-mail

24 advising that it does not object to the document being admitted as

25 Exhibit P7010, and the Court Officer is hereby instructed to replace

Page 33992

1 P7010 [Realtime transcript read in error "P0710"] with 65 ter number

2 31772a. And P7010 is hereby admitted into evidence.

3 [The witness takes the stand]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Erceg, not very polite to continue with

5 administrative matters when you enter the courtroom, apologies for that.

6 Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.

7 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P4337, please.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: While this comes up, the number should be

9 corrected it's not P0710 but P7010, line 17 of page 24.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Judge Fluegge.

11 Mr. Traldi, proceed.

12 MR. TRALDI:

13 Q. Now this is the version of the decision on the formation of the

14 Crisis Staff of the ARK that was published in the Official Gazette;

15 right?

16 A. [No interpretation]

17 Q. Now I have three areas of questioning for you about it. The

18 first two are quite brief.

19 First, under the word "decision," in this version it refers to it

20 as a Crisis Staff rather than a war staff; right?

21 A. [Microphone not activated]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness -- could the usher assist the witness in

24 adjusting the microphone so that the interpreters can hear him.

25 Could you please repeat your answer, Witness, because the

Page 33993

1 interpreters couldn't hear you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It reads up here: The decision on

3 forming the war staff and then the Crisis Staff.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then above that it says "war

6 staff." So it's obviously an error. If I have read this correctly.

7 Essentially this is a Crisis Staff. It's no war staff at all.

8 MR. TRALDI: We've lost the B/C/S it appears. We have it back

9 now.

10 Q. Second question: In the header it says this decision is being

11 taken pursuant to Article 12 of the Law on National Defence. That's the

12 Law on National Defence of the Republika Srpska which by the beginning of

13 May had also been received and was being implemented in the ARK; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And, in fact, it cites the Official Gazette, those were being

16 received in the ARK; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, you testified earlier that the people who were on the

19 Crisis Staff, the documentation said they had to serve on the Crisis

20 Staff as a result of their positions. What documentation were you

21 referring to?

22 A. I do not understand the question. What documents do you mean?

23 Q. Sure. Today you testified that as president of the

24 Executive Council, the documents said that you had to be a member of the

25 Crisis Staff. Let me put it clearly: The documents you were referring

Page 33994

1 to is the Variant A and B instructions; right?

2 A. No.

3 Q. What document were you referring to?

4 A. This list of the members of the Crisis Staff is based on the fact

5 that many of the members were -- by the nature of the work that they had

6 to do would automatically be involved in the Crisis Staff. I was the

7 president of the Executive Council, and in that capacity I was co-opted

8 into the Crisis Staff. Just an example. Then Deputy President --

9 Vice-President Sajic also, then Predrag Radic who was the president of

10 the municipality of Banja Luka, and then Radisav Vukic who was the

11 president of the SDS also by his -- by virtue of his capacity and so on.

12 There is no documentation but judging by the positions these people were

13 on at the moment at which the Crisis Staff was formed, and if

14 documentation is needed, specifically for myself, for example, it could

15 be the Assembly's decision appointing me as the president of the

16 Executive Council. And if you need to find the document, it could be a

17 decision. But in this case, simply, it was by default, automatic.

18 Q. Sir --

19 A. People who --

20 Q. I'm going to go through all of these people's positions with you

21 in a moment, but before I do, today at temporary transcript page 11,

22 lines 18 through 24, you testified as follows:

23 "This list was made on Brdjanin's instructions, but according to

24 the documentation, the staff is made up of people who occupy certain

25 positions and the very fact that somebody occupies a certain position

Page 33995

1 puts him on the Crisis Staff. I was on the staff because I was president

2 on -- of an Executive Council, and it is written somewhere that

3 presidents of Executive Councils automatically became members of the

4 Crisis Staff."

5 What I'm putting to you now is what you testified then at

6 temporary transcript page 11 was accurate and the place where that is

7 written is in the Variant A and B instructions. That's the truth; right?

8 A. It could be like that as well. You could interpret it like that.

9 If we need to explain it, it can be interpreted in that way. But it's

10 known --

11 Q. Sir -- sir, I'm not at the moment interested in how it could be.

12 Earlier this morning, you testified that you became a member of the

13 Crisis Staff because it was written somewhere that due to your position

14 as president of the Executive Council, you automatically became a member

15 of the Crisis Staff. Just now, you testified there was no such

16 documentation or -- I mean, "it could be the Assembly's decision

17 appointing me as the president of the Executive Council," but that there

18 was no specific documentation saying presidents of Executive Councils

19 became members of Crisis Staffs.

20 What I'm putting to you is: The truth, not how it could be, is

21 what you said the first time, that it was written that the president of

22 the Executive Council automatically became a member of the Crisis Staff.

23 It was written in the Variant A and B instructions, and it was in

24 application of them that you became a member. That's the truth; right?

25 A. It may be interpreted like that. Let us say that that's the

Page 33996

1 truth.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, well, we'll not just: "Let's say that it's

3 the truth."

4 You said "it's written somewhere." Mr. Traldi puts to you that

5 it is found in the A and B instructions. Do you agree with that? If

6 not, tell us where it is written.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will repeat again. Specifically

8 for me and my name, I was co-opted in the Crisis Staff for the reason

9 that I was the president of the Executive Council and in some

10 documents --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you have told us that five times. Now, Mr.

12 Traldi --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's nothing new for me to say.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Where you said "it's written somewhere," where is it

15 written, in your opinion?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, our lawyers would know that.

17 We received instructions from lawyers how to form a commission.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if you say "it's written somewhere," and if

19 you say "the lawyers told me," then you should have testified: Lawyers

20 told me that it is written somewhere. If you say "it's written

21 somewhere," we expect you to have knowledge of that it is written

22 somewhere.

23 Now, could you tell us where it is written or can't you tell us?

24 Can you or can you not?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say where it's written.

Page 33997

1 But I know that --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Witness, that's an answer to my question.

3 Please, Mr. Traldi.

4 MR. TRALDI:

5 Q. Earlier this morning you testified that you issued this decision

6 because Brdjanin told you there were instructions to do it and you just

7 took his word for it. A moment ago, you testified that there was a

8 consultation with lawyers about who should be on the Crisis Staff. Was

9 there, in fact, such a consultation, or did you just take Mr. Brdjanin's

10 word for it and issue this instruction?

11 A. I did not consult lawyers, but I took Brdjanin's word for it,

12 supposing that he had consulted lawyers, how and in what manner this

13 decision was to be implemented.

14 Q. So when you testified just now at temporary transcript page 29,

15 line 6: "We received instructions from lawyers how to form a

16 commission," is it your evidence now that that's just an assumption and

17 you don't know whether that's true either?

18 A. An assumption.

19 Q. As I said, I'm going to go now through the names of the people on

20 this list and their positions with you. If you don't recall or are

21 simply assuming what their position is, I'd ask you to state that

22 clearly. And what I'm interested in is their position before they became

23 members of the Crisis Staff.

24 Now, Mr. Brdjanin, before he became -- before the Crisis Staff

25 was formed, was the vice-president of the ARK Assembly; right?

Page 33998

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Sajic was the secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence

3 in the ARK; right?

4 A. I'm not sure about that, but I know that he was in the military

5 structures. I don't know specifically what position he had.

6 Q. Kupresanin was president of the ARK Assembly?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. You were president of the Executive Council and you mentioned

9 that Radic was president of Banja Luka municipality. Vukic, president of

10 the party. Milanovic --

11 A. Yes. Dr. Milanovic was the deputy president of the Assembly of

12 the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. And General Talic was the commander of the then-5th Corps of the

14 JNA; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Major Jokic was in the JNA air force?

17 A. I don't know what he did.

18 Q. Stojan Zupljanin, head of CSB Banja Luka; right?

19 A. Yes, security services Banja Luka.

20 Q. Dr. Kuzmanovic, rector of Banja Luka university?

21 A. Yes. But, look, it reads here: "Dragoljub Mirjanic." There is

22 no Kuzmanovic in what I see on the screen in B/C/S. Dr. Dragoljub

23 Mirjanic.

24 Q. What was Mirjanic's position?

25 A. He was a university professor as far as I know. He certainly was

Page 33999

1 that. Whether he also had some other position, I wouldn't know.

2 Q. Milan Puvacic was the district prosecutor; right?

3 A. A judge, yes.

4 Q. Jovo Rosic, president of the court?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Slobodan Dubocanin and Nenad Stevandic, they were both with the

7 Serbian Defence Forces or the SOS; right?

8 A. I know that Slobodan Dubocanin was a reserve officer and

9 Nenad Stevandic was a medical student, a student at the faculty of

10 medicine at the time.

11 Q. First question: What organisation was Dubocanin a reserve

12 officer in? What structure?

13 A. I don't know that. I met him around that time.

14 Q. And you hadn't answered directly the question I asked. Aside

15 from the positions that you mention, both of those men were also involved

16 with the Serbian Defence Forces or the SOS; right?

17 A. I don't know this. I -- I cannot answer with either a yes or a

18 no.

19 Q. And Djuro Bulic and Nedjelko Kesic, who we see at the bottom,

20 they were both employed by the RS MUP; right?

21 A. Djuro Bulic was in the RS and Nedjelko Kesic in -- what's it

22 called? Security ...I don't know how it was called, but probably

23 attached to the Security Services Centre.

24 Q. Head of the -- head of the National Security Service at the CSB;

25 right?

Page 34000

1 A. I think so, but I'm not certain.

2 Q. So this list includes the leaders of the key institutions in the

3 ARK; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And the Crisis Staff provides a forum for them to co-ordinate

6 their organisation's efforts; right?

7 A. Yes, it could be assumed that that was the point, to calm the

8 situation as much as possible and to monitor what was going on.

9 Q. And because of their roles and their expertise coming in, for

10 instance, if something that came up that was a judicial issue, it would

11 be Rosic or Puvacic that took the lead, right, because of their previous

12 positions?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. And there were always plenty of people from the various

15 municipalities attending meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff; right?

16 A. Mostly. Especially after the few meetings which were held with a

17 smaller number of people, then later on sometimes there would be as many

18 as 40 or 50 people attending.

19 MR. TRALDI: I'm done with this document. And I'd ask for P2413.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And this document was ...?

21 MR. TRALDI: P4337.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it needs to be revised as far as

23 translation is concerned, Mr. Traldi --

24 MR. TRALDI: We will have it --

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- because it seems that the entry under number 11

Page 34001

1 is -- the English is not consistent with what we find in the B/C/S.

2 MR. TRALDI: We'll have it checked, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could you please inform us immediately

4 once you have uploaded a new version.

5 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

7 MR. TRALDI:

8 Q. Now, sir, in paragraphs 72 through 94 of your statement, you

9 discusses relations between the ARK and the municipalities which

10 comprised it, and I'll have several questions about this topic.

11 First, Brdjanin expected that when the ARK Crisis Staff

12 formulated a conclusion, that conclusion would be implemented at the

13 municipal level, didn't he?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, this is a document you discuss in your statement.

16 MR. TRALDI: If we can turn to page 2 so just so we've got the

17 text, 2 in both languages.

18 Q. You say in paragraph 85 that this was a completely autonomous

19 decision of the Sanski Most Crisis Staff.

20 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, one more page in the B/C/S.

21 Q. Now, we see that this decision relates to the disarmament of what

22 are referred to as paramilitary formations. The reality is that this

23 very order was issued to implement a series of decisions about

24 disarmament made by the Republika Srpska authorities passed down the

25 chain, leading to decisions made by the ARK Crisis Staff, and then passed

Page 34002

1 down the chain to the municipality; right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now you testified to that same fact in the Karadzic case. So my

4 question is: Why have you not removed the claim that this order was

5 issued "completely autonomously" from your statement, when you know that

6 this, in fact, was an implementation of decisions taken by the higher

7 Bosnian Serb authorities and your assertion about it in your statement is

8 not true?

9 A. Can you please repeat the question from the beginning.

10 Paragraph 82.

11 Q. Paragraph 85, sir. In paragraph 85 you say this is a completely

12 autonomous decision of the Sanski Most Crisis Staff.

13 My question for you is: Considering that you know that not to be

14 true and you testified in the Karadzic case that this was not completely

15 autonomous but issued pursuant to the decisions by the higher Bosnian

16 Serb authorities, why have you not removed that claim from your

17 statement?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

19 MR. LUKIC: I just want to -- the witness is not looking at the

20 screen, not following the decision. You have the -- that he has the --

21 this order on the screen. So I'm not sure if he understood the question.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I haven't. I haven't

23 understood the question.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you give it another try, Mr. Traldi. And

25 perhaps remove from the screen what the witness has not to look at or

Page 34003

1 even if only temporarily --

2 MR. TRALDI: I --

3 JUDGE ORIE: And I take it that he should first look at his own

4 statement and if you direct him to the right paragraph that would

5 certainly assist. 85.

6 MR. TRALDI:

7 Q. Sir, I'm directing your attention your to paragraph 85 of your

8 statement. And you mention that -- the document we just saw in the first

9 sentence. You describe it in the second. In the third sentence you

10 assert this is a completely autonomous decision.

11 My question for you is: The fact is you've left those things in

12 your statement when you know they are not true, and you testified in the

13 Karadzic case, just like you did just now, that the decision we just saw

14 was, in fact, entered into by the Sanski Most Crisis Staff pursuant to

15 decisions by the republic level and regional level Bosnian Serb

16 authorities. That's the truth; right?

17 A. Once again, I do not your question.

18 MR. LUKIC: He has to see the document if somebody -- if

19 something is asked about the document. He cannot know by heart.

20 MR. TRALDI: Mr. Lukic --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's -- Mr. Lukic doesn't have to

22 intervene.

23 The issue is the following. In paragraph 85 of your statement,

24 you are telling us about the document, which is, at this moment, on our

25 screen --

Page 34004

1 MR. LUKIC: It is not.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It's not on the screen. Let's have a look. Could

3 we now have it on the screen. Yes, but then a B/C/S version as well.

4 Yes. In paragraph 85, you are saying something about an order

5 from the Sanski Most Crisis Staff to the Territorial Defence Staff.

6 That's what you see on your screen now.

7 You see that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, in your statement, you are telling us that

10 it -- this decision was a completely autonomous decision of the

11 Sanski Most Crisis Staff.

12 Now, a few minutes ago, you agreed with Mr. Traldi that this

13 decision was taken pursuant to other decisions taken at a higher level,

14 and, therefore, Mr. Traldi thinks that it's incorrect to say that it was

15 autonomously taken. And he wonders why in your statement you still say

16 that it is a autonomous decision; whereas you agreed a few minutes ago

17 that this decision was taken on the instruction or at least pursuant to

18 decisions taken at a higher level, which would make it not autonomous any

19 further.

20 Do you have any explanation for that?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was in discipline of the lower

22 level which took decisions. It was the Crisis Staff of Sanski Most which

23 took this decision on its own. At this moment, that's how I understand

24 it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: But was it taken pursuant to instructions or orders

Page 34005

1 from higher organs?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who the Crisis Staff of Sanski Most

3 communicated with, I don't know. I don't think they communicated with

4 anyone at the time when they adopted such a decision.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

6 MR. TRALDI:

7 Q. Sir, you testified a moment ago -- I'm just pulling up the

8 specific language. I showed you this decision. I said:

9 "We see that this decision relates to the disarmament of what are

10 referred to as paramilitary formations. The reality is that this very

11 order was issued to implement a series of decisions about disarmament

12 made by the Republika Srpska authorities passed down the chain, leading

13 to decisions made by the ARK Crisis Staff, and then passed down the chain

14 to the municipality; right?"

15 And you said: "Yes."

16 Do you agree with me that are you now changing your evidence?

17 MR. LUKIC: Objection.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

19 MR. LUKIC: At that moment, the witness --

20 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours --

21 MR. LUKIC: -- was not aware [overlapping speakers] --

22 MR. TRALDI: -- the witness should --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Should you make -- you can make an objection. You

24 should not interpret the -- what's the objection, Mr. Lukic?

25 MR. LUKIC: First he did not show him the other -- the other

Page 34006

1 documents. He claimed that there were some.

2 Second, the witness did not pay attention to the document in

3 front of him. It was obvious he was watching his statement all the time.

4 We all saw it.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You're giving evidence on what happened in court --

6 MR. LUKIC: I saw it. I can give evidence about it.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that's --

8 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --

9 JUDGE ORIE: And, Mr. Lukic --

10 MR. LUKIC: I could follow [overlapping speakers] --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic -- Mr. Lukic, stop now immediately. You

12 say you could give testimony about it. That's exactly what you're not

13 supposed to do in this court.

14 MR. LUKIC: I was observing the witness, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, everyone observed it. It is not here --

16 MR. LUKIC: He was not looking at the screen at all.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you apparently have a very bad

18 understanding of what the rules of procedure requests -- require from you

19 at this moment.

20 MR. LUKIC: At that --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm not in a discussion with you. I'm

22 telling you something --

23 MR. LUKIC: I think I do understand the proceedings, Your Honour.

24 I cannot accept that I do not understand the proceedings.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider that with my colleagues. I do it

Page 34007

1 immediately.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: It's unanimous in this Bench that you did not

4 procedurally properly act, Mr. Lukic. We leave it to that for the time

5 being.

6 MR. LUKIC: Are you telling me that Mr. Mladic has --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- I'm not --

8 MR. LUKIC: -- incompetent Defence?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --

10 MR. LUKIC: I want an answer to that [overlapping speakers] -- so

11 you should replace me then.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, now first -- first of all, I'm not in a

13 position that I have to answer your questions. That's one. And second,

14 if you continue to behave like this, we have to consider what to do. I

15 leave to that. And I've now said it five times "I leave it to that," and

16 that implies that you should leave it at this moment as well.

17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: That's it.

19 Mr. Traldi, at least your question, the question also you put

20 earlier to the witness, was a pretty composite one and that may create

21 some of the problems which have arisen now. So even if you would try to

22 find out whether the witness changed his testimony, your previous

23 question should be split up and you should seek confirmation on all

24 elements contained in it.

25 Please proceed.

Page 34008

1 MR. LUKIC: One more thing, Your Honours, if I may. I was just

2 warned because I was following the English channel, my colleague

3 Stojanovic told me. The translation this witness was --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Translation issues can always be discussed. Is

5 there any translation issue, Mr. Lukic?

6 MR. LUKIC: Yes. He was receiving the translation that on our

7 screens we have decision and here it says "order." I don't know, I

8 wasn't following that channel.

9 JUDGE ORIE: What line, what word exactly is -- and if you want

10 to consult with Mr. Stojanovic, of course, you can do that. But I'm

11 afraid that these words have been used so many times, that in order to

12 detect any translation error, any interpretation error, we would have to

13 know exactly which line, which page. And the Chamber is, as always,

14 Mr. Lukic, open to a careful review to be very precise ...

15 MR. LUKIC: In English it was said "order." So you have "order"

16 in the transcript.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, what, under those circumstances, we would

18 do, we would use the WordWheel and that reveals that the word "order" was

19 used, two, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine times today so choose

20 whatever "order "you would like to have verified and we'll do it.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But the problem, Mr. Lukic, is that in the

22 statement, the witness is using the term "decision."

23 MR. LUKIC: Exactly, but on the screen we have the word "order."

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, let's --

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, you said that already. I just wanted to

Page 34009

1 draw your attention --

2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- and you see in the WordWheel, we have, I

4 think, 20 or 30 times "decision."

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I only dealt with "order" in the singular,

6 not in the plural, because that adds another two.

7 MR. LUKIC: In --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

9 MR. LUKIC: -- in B/C/S it says "order."

10 JUDGE ORIE: Where, Mr. Lukic?

11 MR. LUKIC: In paragraph 85.

12 JUDGE ORIE: 85 of the statement of the witness?

13 MR. LUKIC: Yes. It says it is an order of Crisis Staff of

14 Sanski Most.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have a look.

16 MR. LUKIC: I don't know about the English --

17 JUDGE ORIE: What we see at least in the document itself, the

18 English version, and it's still on our screen, says "order," and is there

19 any problem in relation to the original B/C/S whether "order" could

20 possibly be an incorrect translation?

21 MR. LUKIC: In both B/C/S and English versions of the statement

22 it says "order."

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Now, I don't know whether this explains

24 all of the confusion because whether decision or order, the issue was not

25 the name of it but the issue was whether this was autonomously taken, yes

Page 34010

1 or no.

2 And, Mr. Traldi, you may resume from there. And, again, one of

3 the previous questions where you asked the witness to confirm, yes or no,

4 was a pretty composite question, so if you would please keep that in mind

5 if you continue.

6 MR. TRALDI:

7 Q. Sir, you're aware that the ARK Crisis Staff was taking decisions

8 on the disarmament of what it referred to as paramilitary formations

9 shortly before this decision, the 20th of May, 1992; right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You're aware that the Bosnian Serb leadership was taking similar

12 decisions at the same time that were being relayed to the ARK, aren't

13 you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you're, in fact, aware that this order -- this order was

16 issued in the implementation of those decisions which had been passed

17 down the chain of command from the republic level to the ARK level to

18 Sanski Most; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So last question on this topic. When you say Sanski Most took

21 this decision completely autonomously, what you mean is they were

22 implementing decisions from the ARK which was itself implementing

23 decisions from the leadership; right?

24 A. After a certain time, after five or six meetings of the Crisis

25 Staff, indiscipline began in the execution of the decisions of the Crisis

Page 34011

1 Staff. It is possibly under that impression that I formulated it this

2 way; that there was a lack of discipline. That's why I said it was a

3 completely autonomous decision. Of course, it wasn't because it follows

4 from the instructions of higher instances.

5 Q. I want to look at a couple of other examples of the relations

6 between the ARK and the municipalities.

7 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 06929.

8 Q. Now, this is a set of conclusions from the ARK Crisis Staff

9 meeting held on the 10th of June, 1992.

10 First, point 1 notes regarding the election of Professor

11 Dragoljub Mirjanic as rector of the University of Banja Luka, the Crisis

12 Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina only endorsed the

13 recommendation of the outgoing rector, Rajko Kuzmanovic, that the new

14 incumbent be Professor Dragoljub Mirjanic.

15 Now, when we were looking at the list of members of the Crisis

16 Staff, you said you didn't remember if Professor Mirjanic held any

17 position other than that of a professor. Does this document refresh your

18 recollection in that regard?

19 A. To some extent, yes. I should have to compare dates. I don't

20 know which is older, his appointment as rector or his joining the Crisis

21 Staff. This was on the 10th of June so it was after the Crisis Staff was

22 formed.

23 Q. Now, directing your attention to point 4, we read:

24 "Only children, women and the elderly may move out voluntarily,

25 that is to say, at their own free will, from the Autonomous Region of

Page 34012

1 Krajina."

2 Now, in paragraph 80 of your statement, you say that the Crisis

3 Staff's position was that if Muslims and Croats wanted to leave the area,

4 they should be allowed to go.

5 This conclusion restricts the Muslims and Croats who are allowed

6 to go to women, children and elderly people. That's because thousands

7 and thousands of non-Serb men were, by this date, 10 June 1992, already

8 been held in camps throughout the ARK; right?

9 A. I didn't understand the question. Would you please repeat it.

10 Q. Sure. You say --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Once again, Mr. Traldi, it's composite to the extent

12 that there two portions in it; the first, who are excluded, and the

13 second, why they were excluded. Those are two separate matters.

14 MR. TRALDI: I intended to move as efficiently as possible but

15 I'll split it up.

16 Q. First, you agree that point 4 here says only children, women and

17 the elderly, meaning, for instance, that Muslim and Croat men who willed

18 to leave the ARK were not being permitted to do so, according to this

19 conclusion by the ARK Crisis Staff; right?

20 A. Well, this conclusion is related to the more sensitive group,

21 that's to say, women, children, and the elderly; but otherwise, anyone

22 who wanted to leave could leave. We are just placing the emphasis -- the

23 emphasis is being placed here on the higher risk groups, if we're talking

24 about paragraph 4.

25 Q. Now, you're aware as you sit there today that, in fact, as of the

Page 34013

1 10th of June, 1992, there were thousands and thousands -- in fact, more

2 than 10.000 Muslims, mostly men, being held as prisoners in the ARK;

3 right?

4 A. I'm not sure. I don't know that.

5 Q. Let's break that up. You're aware, of course, that by this point

6 there were camps in the ARK; right?

7 A. Yes, military camps.

8 Q. You're aware that those military camps held Muslims and Croats;

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You're aware they held large numbers of Muslims and Croats;

12 right?

13 A. I don't know how many there were.

14 Q. And you're aware that the people detained there were mostly men,

15 though not exclusively; right?

16 A. I suppose so.

17 Q. And so what I'm putting to you is that those numbers of men,

18 mostly, who you were aware were being detained in camps, that they aren't

19 able to move out what's referred to as voluntarily because they're being

20 detained in camps; right?

21 A. Well, not all Muslims were held in camps. Many Muslims were

22 walking about the streets of towns normally. In Banja Luka included.

23 It's not true that all of them were locked up. There were in the

24 municipal assembly members who were Muslims and Croats, and they

25 continued working normally and participating in the work of the assembly

Page 34014

1 refresh your recollection Assembly of Banja Luka. I'm talking again

2 about Banja Luka because that's what I know best.

3 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P7283, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I have one additional question to you, Witness. You

7 say children, women, and the elderly were mentioned because they were the

8 most vulnerable group. If that is the case, you would have expected it

9 to read: At least children, women, and the elderly may move out, or

10 certainly children, women, and the elderly may move out. However, the

11 text reads: "Only children, women and the elderly may move out," which

12 is language which you would use if would you exclude other groups.

13 Do you have any comment on the textual interpretation I gave

14 compared to the textual interpretation you gave. Not say that it is mine

15 but I pointed to a certain use of language.

16 So, therefore, the uses of the word "only" which -- how to

17 reconcile that with your interpretation of this paragraph 4.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it fits in the sense that

19 this is firmly regulated, and the assumption was that it would be only

20 women, children, and the elderly wanting to leave, but, in practice, it

21 was different. Others could leave too. Perhaps with a certain delay,

22 pending a process of verification or vetting, who the person was and why

23 they wanted to leave. The very fact that this group was given more

24 liberal treatment in moving out was caused by the fact that there was a

25 lot of -- lot of migration and a great influx of Serbian refugees from

Page 34015

1 other areas. There were cases when Croats organised themselves and

2 wanted to leave and go across the Sava river. There were all sorts of

3 situations that do not fit into any paragraphs. Of course, there were

4 deviations from what we wanted, and there were many things that could not

5 be fitted into any frame or any decision. It was war time. Obviously, a

6 very complex situation.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put a follow-up question.

9 Mr. Erceg, that was a long explanation. Now I'm talking to you.

10 But you -- earlier you said:

11 "But otherwise anyone who wanted to leave could leave." "Anyone

12 who wanted to leave could leave."

13 This is not in accordance with what you explained now.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, look, it all depends on the

15 period. In the beginning, it was perhaps more difficult to leave --

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I stop you. We are talking about June 1992

17 and especially about this document, where it says:

18 "Only children, women, and the elderly may move out voluntarily,"

19 and then you said, "but otherwise anyone who wanted to leave could

20 leave."

21 Why did you say that?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I cannot focus my

23 observations only on one date, between 1 and 30th June, for instance.

24 I'm talking about the times we lived in. How do I know now what happened

25 on the 8th or on the 10th of June? I'm talking about a longer period of

Page 34016

1 one or two years, and I'm trying to present to you what happened in those

2 situations.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But that was not the question. Thank you.

4 Mr. Traldi.

5 MR. TRALDI:

6 Q. Now, sir, the Chamber has received evidence that on 26 May 1992,

7 the ARK Crisis Staff determined that its decisions were binding for

8 municipal Crisis Staffs. Now, in your view, when you were interviewed by

9 the Office of the Prosecutor and your recollection was fresher, that was

10 a consequence of the Djeric instructions we discussed earlier; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. TRALDI: And can we have P3758, page 2 in both languages.

13 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that. The previous

14 document, the Chamber has not yet decided on it. P7283 is admitted into

15 evidence.

16 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Now, this is the book of minutes of the Kljuc Crisis Staff. We

18 see on the 27th of May, one day after the ARK Crisis Staff decision we

19 just discussed, that at point 1, the Kljuc Crisis Staff is concluding

20 that it will give legitimacy to all the decisions of the Crisis Staff of

21 the Autonomous Region. That reflects that it is the very next day

22 implementing the ARK Crisis Staff's decision that municipal Crisis Staffs

23 are essentially obligated to follow its decisions; right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, turning next to Prijedor. It's correct that you can't point

Page 34017

1 to a single document or a single instance where the Prijedor Crisis Staff

2 refused to follow or implement ARK Crisis Staff decisions about, for

3 example, dismissing people from work; right?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. And this Chamber has received evidence from a member of the

6 Prijedor Crisis Staff named Bosko Mandic who testified that the Prijedor

7 Crisis Staff implemented decisions by the ARK Crisis Staff. That's the

8 truth; right?

9 A. In part, yes, they probably carried out the bulk of the decisions

10 but not all.

11 Q. And in paragraph 82 of your statement, you refer to a decision by

12 the Prijedor Crisis Staff dated the 23rd of June, 1992. Now, the Chamber

13 has received evidence that before this decision was issued, the Prijedor

14 Crisis Staff was implementing ARK decisions by, for instance, introducing

15 a permanent duty rotation. That's P6949. You're aware of that; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the Chamber has received evidence that on the same day that

18 the decision you referred to was issued, the Prijedor Crisis Staff

19 forwarded for implementation an ARK Crisis Staff conclusion about

20 dismissing non-Serbs and Serbs who hadn't accepted the SDS as the only

21 representative of the Serb people from important jobs. You're aware of

22 that too; right?

23 A. I don't know these details. I don't know that these things

24 happened. There were individual cases -- I mean, I don't know about any

25 individual cases.

Page 34018

1 Q. So is your evidence now that you simply don't know, as you sit

2 there, whether the Prijedor Crisis Staff implemented ARK Crisis Staff

3 decisions or not?

4 A. No, I don't know.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, I'm -- I have a slight concern about

6 possible confusion.

7 Witness, I read to you one of the answers you just gave. When

8 asked about the implementation of Crisis Staff conclusions about

9 dismissing non-Serbs and Serbs who hadn't accepted the SDS, you said:

10 "I don't know these details. I don't know that these things

11 happened. There were individual cases -- I mean, I don't know about any

12 individual cases."

13 Were you, when you gave this answer, talking about individual

14 cases of persons who should be dismissed; or were you talking about cases

15 where the Prijedor Crisis Staff implemented or did not implement ARK

16 Crisis Staff conclusions? Are you talking about individual cases of

17 persons or cases of implementation of decisions?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About individual cases.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Individual cases of persons being dismissed? Is

22 that what you ...

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Cases of individual persons. I feared that there

25 might have been some confusion there.

Page 34019

1 We'll take a break first, Mr. Traldi.

2 Witness, you may follow the usher. We'll resume in 20 minutes

3 from now.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at quarter past 12.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, I use the time to deal with one

9 associated exhibit to the statement of Vidoje Blagojevic.

10 On the 23rd and the 24th of March of this year,

11 Witness Blagojevic testified before this Chamber. The witness statement

12 was admitted as D965. In its Rule 92 ter motion for this witness, the

13 Defence had also tendered one associated exhibit bearing Rule 65 ter

14 number 14584. In court, the Defence did not further address this

15 document, and the question of the Chamber is whether this means that the

16 Defence withdraws the tendering of this document.

17 If we could receive an answer, well, let's say, either today or

18 at the latest on Monday -- or tomorrow. Tomorrow.

19 [The witness takes the stand]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

21 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President. Could we have

22 65 ter 02585.

23 Q. And I'm turning to another ARK municipality, Kotor Varos, now.

24 This is a declaration or a decision to join the Autonomous District of

25 Krajina. And it says it's proclaimed that the Serbian municipality of

Page 34020

1 Kotor Varos shall be part of the Autonomous District of Krajina. It's

2 dated the 7th of February, 1992. It's correct that from that point, the

3 municipality of Kotor Varos was part of the ARK; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And like the other municipalities in the ARK, it implemented the

6 conclusions of the ARK Crisis Staff and the ARK government; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 02774.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you say that again? Okay. It's fine.

10 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, this is a decision by the Executive Committee of Kotor Varos

12 dated the 6th of May, 1992. And we see that it's decided, inter alia, to

13 limit movement of all people except those employed in the regular and

14 reserve police forces between 2200 and 0500 hours the following day. It

15 refers to limit the working hours for catering establishments and

16 businesses, enterprises and other organisations that work in shifts,

17 adjusting their working hours to the regulations of this decision.

18 Now, this was done pursuant to a decision by the ARK; right?

19 A. I'm not sure about that. I don't know if there was an ARK

20 decision. But in any case, all the Crisis Staffs of municipalities had

21 both the possibility and the right and the lack of discipline to act in a

22 given moment in an appropriate way according to their own rules. This

23 decision may be relevant only to Kotor Varos, and even if there was an

24 instruction, it could have ignored it and made its own decision

25 regardless of the ARK Krajina.

Page 34021

1 Q. Well, sir, I think you've gone well beyond my question. I'm

2 going to ask you to focus for the moment on just the provision that

3 movement will be limited between 2200 and 0500 hours and the date of this

4 decision, the 6th of May, 1992.

5 MR. TRALDI: And I'm going to ask for P3415.

6 Q. Now, this is a decision by the regional Secretariat for National

7 Defence of the ARK dated the 4th of May, 1992. It says it's pursuant to

8 a decision of the Ministry of National Defence of the Serbian Republic of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina from the 16th of April, 1992. So, first, we see yet

10 another decision from the republic-level authorities being implemented by

11 the ARK authorities; right?

12 A. If you had shown me this decision before the Kotor Varos one, I

13 would have told you that it was under this decision that a curfew was

14 imposed in Kotor Varos.

15 Q. Then I won't have more questions about this document.

16 MR. TRALDI: I'd tender 65 ter 02585 and 02774.

17 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.

18 Mr. Registrar, the numbers would be?

19 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 02585 will be Exhibit P7284. And

20 65 ter number 02774 will be Exhibit P7285.

21 JUDGE ORIE: P7284 and 7285 are admitted.

22 MR. TRALDI:

23 Q. And I apologise, I do have one more question -- or one more

24 reference from the last document. I'll just tell you the Chamber has

25 received evidence in P3415 that as of the 4th of May, public institutions

Page 34022

1 and business enterprises in the ARK - this is at point 3 now that we have

2 it back - should start working according to a war-time regime.

3 MR. TRALDI: And with that in mind, I'm going to ask for

4 65 ter 17401.

5 Now, this is a decision by the Kalinovik Municipal Assembly in

6 the SAO Herzegovina dated the 11th of May, a few days later. And I see

7 we only have the B/C/S on our screens. I know it's been released, so

8 hopefully we will have it in a moment.

9 Q. And looking at point 1 in this decision, just a few days later,

10 pursuant to the decision of what's referred to as the SAO Herzegovina

11 War Staff, the Executive Committee of the Kalinovik Municipal Assembly is

12 directing that commercial entities and social service providers in

13 Kalinovik municipal area are required to switch immediately to operation

14 in war-time conditions.

15 Now what I'm suggesting to you, sir, what I'm putting to you, is

16 that we see these very similar decisions by the regional authorities in

17 the ARK, the regional authorities in the SAO Herzegovina, issued at very

18 similar times because they're both implementing republic-level

19 instructions. That's the truth; right?

20 A. I suppose that it is so. However, I don't have any written

21 record. I don't have a communication and I don't have the insight that a

22 meeting was held at any point on the basis of which this was all made to

23 be the same.

24 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

Page 34023

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7286, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: P7286 is admitted.

3 MR. TRALDI:

4 Q. Now I want to turn to your evidence in your statement about what

5 you describe as conflict between the ARK leadership and the authorities

6 in Pale. Now, you're aware that Karadzic, President Karadzic, went to

7 the ARK Assembly in late February 1992, gave a report, and that assembly

8 voted unanimously, 148 to nothing, to adopt the RS constitution and

9 accept Karadzic's report on the political situation. You're aware of

10 that; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So your evidence about separatists in the ARK and the Banja Luka

13 option, that really refers to a series of events that were over by the

14 end of February 1992; right?

15 A. There were separatist inclinations throughout the war, that is to

16 say, throughout these three and four years. They are always present,

17 even now in peace time. At any time there are always different opinions

18 and different logic, so, yes, they were present at the time as well.

19 Q. Well, in terms of the views of the ARK leadership, let's look

20 first at 65 ter 19104. This will be a page from a publication called

21 "Glas" dated 5th of March, 1992, a few days after Karadzic's visit.

22 Now we see top of the page in the B/C/S and on page 1 in the

23 English an article called: "Krajina government in the offing," and with

24 the subject: "Assembly of the Autonomous Region in Banja Luka." It's

25 dated Banja Luka, 4th of March. The article starts:

Page 34024

1 "From today on, it can be stated with total certainty that in the

2 area of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, the implementation of the

3 constitution and laws of the Republic of the Serbian people in Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina has begun. This was stated to journalists at a press

5 conference held after the session of the assembly at which there were ten

6 items on the agenda, by the president of the Assembly of AR Krajina,

7 Vojo Kupresanin."

8 Now what Kupresanin said, what he is being referred to as saying

9 there is the truth, that by this point, the 5th of March, it was totally

10 certain that it was the constitution and the laws of the RS that were

11 going to be applied in the ARK; right?

12 A. The Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina did not

13 imply any division. This was a time when we were blocked, so this is

14 just an observation of Mr. Vojo Kupresanin. It's given there or perhaps

15 it's a remark of the journalist who understood it in that way. But this

16 reminds me that we -- it seems to suggest that we are working in

17 accordance with the constitution of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

18 But, no, there was no constitution of the ARK. The constitution was at

19 the level of the republic and this was a period when we were isolated in

20 terms of communications, so we couldn't work together with everyone else.

21 Q. Well, this was just a few days after Karadzic had visited and the

22 ARK Assembly had voted unanimously to, among other things, accept the RS

23 constitution which is what Kupresanin is talking about there; right?

24 A. Here he talks in his capacity as the president of the Assembly of

25 the ARK, and I repeat, the ARK has no constitution.

Page 34025

1 Q. Can you read slowly -- sir --

2 A. I'm sorry, but there's--

3 Q. Can you read to yourself slowly the first bolded sentence on the

4 left in that main article. And tell me when you've read it.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we zoom in on that paragraph.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And, Mr. Traldi, do we have -- the bold beginning of

7 the article, is that in the translation as well? I'm -- because I see

8 that it starts with "Banja Luka, the 4th of March," and the last thing I

9 read in that further -- the paragraph further down is the word "Vojo

10 Kupresanin." But is the -- is the heading immediately below the -- is

11 that translated as well?

12 MR. TRALDI: That I'm not sure, and it may not be. I see that

13 this portion is translated.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, of course, if we translate 25, 30 lines

15 and not the five first lines that, of course, could distort our

16 understanding of -- Mr. Lukic, could you assist, whether the first seven

17 lines in bold in the original, whether they appear in the declaration?

18 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm trying to follow all the

19 documents, and I'm on three at the same time right now, so I --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, take your time.

21 MR. LUKIC: -- didn't hear your question. I'm sorry.

22 JUDGE ORIE: What I'd like to know is whether what we see in the

23 B/C/S first seven lines, directly under the title, whether that appears

24 in the translation or whether it only starts further down with the left

25 column: "Banja Luka, 4th of March."

Page 34026

1 MR. LUKIC: You are right. I don't see this entry part.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Perhaps we proceed for the time

3 building, Mr. Traldi, but I think to leave out, even without indicating

4 that it was done, is not what we expect you to do. And I have no idea

5 whether it helps in understanding the article, but I think those seven

6 lines in addition would be a relatively small effort.

7 MR. TRALDI: We'll certainly make a request, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To which paragraph did you refer the witness?

10 MR. TRALDI: The very first paragraph, the first bolded sentence

11 appears to start: "Od danas," "From today."

12 Q. And, sir, I'm just putting to that you it's clear that it's the

13 republican constitution being discussed in that language; right?

14 A. Just a moment, please.

15 I will tell you again what I have told you already. In the

16 constitution of Republika Srpska, there are no autonomous regions, and

17 there is talk here about the autonomous regions but it was of temporary

18 character. One could probably reason now that what is written here is in

19 the spirit of the constitution of Republika Srpska, but the Autonomous

20 Region of Krajina itself was of temporary character. It was to last as

21 long as the uncertain circumstances lasted. So, in that sense, it's not

22 clear to me what exactly you're asking me.

23 Let me repeat again: In the constitution of Republika Srpska, it

24 is never mentioned that Republika Srpska consists of autonomous regions.

25 At least as far as I remember.

Page 34027

1 Q. Well, let me ask you two very specific questions.

2 First, at this point in its existence, the 5th of March, 1992, it

3 was, in fact, correct that the Autonomous Region of Krajina was acting

4 and making decisions in the spirit of carrying out the RS constitution

5 and other systemic laws; right?

6 A. Laws, but not the constitution.

7 Q. And, second, you suggested that the constitution of

8 Republika Srpska doesn't mention autonomous regions. There are rights

9 and obligations of regions --

10 A. I think not.

11 Q. -- included in, for instance, the RS Law on National Defence from

12 the end of February 1992; right?

13 A. Can you please repeat the question.

14 Q. Sure. Setting the constitution aside for a moment, you're aware

15 that, for instance, the Law on National Defence, passed just days

16 earlier, does include a decision of the rights and obligations of

17 regionals -- of regions; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now turning to page 2 in the English and the far right of the

20 page in the B/C/S, we see a discussion about the press conference of the

21 chief of the CSB in Banja Luka, Stojan Zupljanin. Now, you discuss the

22 creation of this CSB in paragraph 59 of your statement. About two-thirds

23 of the way down that column in the B/C/S, Zupljanin is referred to as

24 informing journalists that at the last Assembly of the Serbian People in

25 Sarajevo, a decision was adopted to found an Interior Ministry of the

Page 34028

1 Serbian Republic of BH, and in connection with this, he made it clear

2 that there was a plan to found five centres of the National Security

3 Services, including in Banja Luka.

4 Now, as a deputy in the assembly, as a member of the ARK Assembly

5 who took the decision that you mentioned in your statement about creating

6 the CSB, you yourself were personally aware that it was being created

7 pursuant to RS republic-level direction; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 06395.

10 This is a different document or a different exhibit. I'm going

11 to move on while we try and clarify. But I'd tender first 65 ter 19104.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7287, Your Honours.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, if we have -- do not have the complete

16 translation it should be MFI'd.

17 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President. I apologise, I should have made

18 that clearer.

19 JUDGE ORIE: P7287 is marked for identification pending a

20 complete translation of the "Glas" article.

21 MR. TRALDI: We now have the right document. These are

22 conclusions from the enlarged centre council session held on 6th of

23 April. If we could have page 3 in the English and page 2 in the B/C/S.

24 Sorry, page 3 in the B/C/S as well.

25 Q. We see at point 2 that:

Page 34029

1 "In accordance with Article 127 of the Law on Internal Affairs,

2 all Banja Luka Security Services Centre employees found at work on

3 1 April 1992 shall be placed under the Serbian Republic of BH Ministry of

4 Interior."

5 I've two questions for you about this provision.

6 The first is: We see again the ARK authorities are implementing

7 the laws passed by the republic-level authorities during the period where

8 you suggested there was no communication between the two; right?

9 A. I don't know when the republican laws were adopted. Probably

10 earlier, before the war operations. Before there was a need to establish

11 the ARK.

12 Q. Second point: It's correct, isn't it, that we see here that the

13 effect of the decision to create the Banja Luka CSB has been to take the

14 authority that had been in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP over

15 Ministry of Interior employees in the ARK and transfer that authority to

16 the MUP of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 06395.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7288, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

22 MR. TRALDI: Now turning to a very specific communications point,

23 if we can have 65 ter 18494.

24 Q. Now this is a report by the RS MUP dated the 22nd and 23rd of

25 April, 1992. We see it begins with information coming from Banja Luka

Page 34030

1 and, in the third paragraph, refers to information about events in

2 Sanski Most. This is a reflection that as of the 22nd and 23rd of April,

3 1992, the CSB Banja Luka was passing information to the RS Ministry of

4 Interior; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 02780.

7 Q. Now this is a daily combat report by the 5th Corps to the

8 2nd Military District. Now the 5th Corps was based in Banja Luka; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the 2nd Military District, as of the 1st of May, 1992, not

11 based in the ARK; right?

12 A. I don't know that, where they were stationed.

13 Q. As president of the Executive Council, if the 2nd Military

14 District had been based in the ARK, you would have been aware of that,

15 wouldn't you.

16 A. Can you please repeat?

17 Q. Sure. The ARK was an area where you were president of the

18 Executive Council. You had authority. You had to be aware of what was

19 happening. If the 2nd Military District had been based in the area over

20 which you served as president of the Executive Council, you would have

21 known where it was based; right?

22 A. Well, probably, I would probably know. But the location of the

23 army, I really have no idea where they were, what they were. I knew that

24 they were there, but where their command or office was, I didn't know

25 that at all and I wasn't interested in it at all.

Page 34031

1 Q. What I'm putting to you is, what we see here is through the

2 military communications system now information going from the ARK to the

3 headquarters of what was then the JNA organ with responsibility for the

4 area of Bosnia. That's right, isn't it?

5 A. I don't know anything about the army.

6 MR. LUKIC: Can -- can I --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's my general answer, so what

8 went through the army, how the army did it, I don't know. I can just

9 assume that they -- that some information arrived through their

10 communication systems for the needs of the civilians.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic wanted to intervene.

12 MR. LUKIC: I just wanted to ask my learned friend, last two

13 documents, whether they are on the list or not. Because we could not

14 find last two documents.

15 MR. TRALDI: I'll check at the break. I know we've worked with a

16 couple of different drafts and it may that be one or two were omitted and

17 I apologise, of course, that's the case.

18 MR. LUKIC: It goes without saying that we don't have the

19 documents at all so we cannot follow.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then would you -- I take it that you have some

21 questions after the break as well, Mr. Traldi. If it wouldn't disturb

22 too much your line of questioning, then I would suggest that you move to

23 another subject first. Then during the break inform Mr. Lukic about

24 these documents and check whether they're on your list or not and then

25 perhaps revisit the matter to the extent needed.

Page 34032

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. TRALDI: Certainly.

3 Q. Now, sir, you just said that your general answer was that you

4 didn't know anything about the army. In fact, in the Karadzic case, you

5 confirmed that you believed your -- well, first, you were aware of the

6 military communications system and you believed that guide-lines from

7 Pale were forwarded using that military communications system. Do you

8 stand by that evidence today?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. TRALDI: And can we have 65 ter 31667.

11 Q. As it comes up, sir -- as it comes up, sir, in the context of our

12 earlier discussion of Serb autonomous regions and whether they were

13 referred to in the constitution, would it refresh your recollection if I

14 suggested to you that Article 2 of the constitution directly refers to

15 Serb autonomous regions?

16 A. Probably so. I don't remember that, this formulation.

17 Q. Now, this, what we see here, is a document sent from the ARK

18 Executive Council in Banja Luka to the president of the Municipal

19 Assembly enclosing an order of the commander of the Ministry of National

20 Defence - Territorial Defence Staff - Sarajevo. Now while the signature

21 is, to put it mildly, difficult to read, it's correct that this is a

22 document you reviewed in preparation for your testimony in the Karadzic

23 case and discussed in one of the draft versions of your statement in that

24 case; right?

25 A. This is something I don't understand at all. There is no

Page 34033

1 signature of mine, my signature is not there. But it seems that it says

2 down there "Nik," I suppose it is Nikola, and probably typed. However,

3 this is not my signature.

4 Q. You're quite sure that you never -- that this isn't your

5 decision, this isn't your enactment, and you never forwarded it to the

6 Banja Luka Municipal Assembly?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you should be clear. Earlier it was who

8 signed it and now are you using different language. So I can imagine

9 that you would start a question by irrespective of, or --

10 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, actually, I'd referred to the

11 difficulty reading the signature but hadn't directly asked about it

12 before. And so I think --

13 JUDGE ORIE: We have noticed a couple of times that the witness,

14 in taking the next step in the line of questioning, sometimes has some

15 problems. He has told us that this is not his signature. He said that

16 he may have been able to read a few letters. Now, if you ask the rest,

17 make that very clear to the witness that you are not talking about the

18 signature anymore, not about -- specifically about the document but about

19 decisions.

20 MR. TRALDI:

21 Q. Sir --

22 JUDGE ORIE: This decision.

23 MR. TRALDI:

24 Q. -- at the moment, I'm specifically suggesting to you that this is

25 an enactment of yours dated the 29th of April, 1992, which relied on an

Page 34034

1 order by the republic-level Ministry of Defence which you had received in

2 Banja Luka. That's the truth; right?

3 A. Now that I have read this, I could sign it right now, so yes.

4 But there are two things here: It's a document which passed through the

5 Executive Council, most probably. It is not my signature, but I now

6 confirm that this is a document from ARK Krajina and that it was

7 forwarded from the ARK, regardless of the fact that the signature is

8 illegible.

9 Q. So what I'm suggesting to you in the context of the last three

10 documents is that we've seen in the police, military, and political

11 authorities by the end of April information flowing between Banja Luka

12 and the -- and the central Bosnian Serb authorities. That's the truth;

13 right?

14 A. Yes. But to a lesser extent.

15 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 31667.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7289, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: P7289 is admitted.

19 MR. TRALDI:

20 Q. Now once communications between Banja Luka and Pale were open,

21 there were officials going to Pale from Banja Luka or coming to

22 Banja Luka from Pale on a daily basis; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And by late May 1992, for instance, the RS government was

25 receiving requests from the ARK and conducting official visits to the

Page 34035

1 ARK; right?

2 A. Whether it was towards the end of May or not, I don't think so.

3 Because it was in end of June that this so-called corridor was liberated

4 so we could have communication and we could travel again.

5 MR. TRALDI: Let's have 65 ter 02491.

6 Q. Now we only have the B/C/S on the screen so far, but you can see

7 these are the minutes of the meeting of the RS government on the 30th of

8 May, 1992. At point 13, you see on the agenda a request of the

9 Autonomous Region of Krajina concerning investments in PTT. So by

10 30 May 1992, the ARK was able to relay requests to the government that

11 were being discussed at government sessions; right?

12 A. I can see that.

13 MR. TRALDI: And if we can have 65 ter 02495.

14 Q. These are the minutes of a government meeting on the 3rd of June.

15 Directing your attention to point 12 on page 2 in the B/C/S, we see a

16 reference to a report from the official visit to Foca, SAO Semberija,

17 Majevica, and AP Krajina. Now the reference to AP Krajina is to a visit

18 General Mladic, President Karadzic, and others had with leaders in the

19 ARK in Banja Luka a day earlier on the 2nd of June, 1992; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 02491 and 02495.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibits P7290 and P7291,

24 respectively, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: P7290 and P7291 are admitted into evidence.

Page 34036

1 MR. TRALDI:

2 Q. Now in paragraph 46 of your statement, you refer to a visit by a

3 delegation from Pale to the ARK in mid-July 1992. That delegation

4 attended -- or at least members of that delegation attended a meeting of

5 the ARK Assembly; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. General Talic attended the same session?

8 A. I'm not sure about that. I don't know.

9 Q. Well, at that session on the 17th of July, the ARK Assembly

10 verified the conclusions of the ARK Crisis Staff and War Presidency in

11 their entirety; right?

12 A. I don't know that either. Do you have the document?

13 MR. TRALDI: Let's have P3955.

14 Q. We see an extract from the minutes of the session of the

15 ARK Assembly on the 17th of July, 1992. We see it's attended by

16 General Talic, Goran Hadzic, Milan Martic, Minister Subotic,

17 Minister Ostojic, Minister Kalinic, and a General Ninkovic. We see at

18 point 4: Verification of the decisions and conclusions adopted by the

19 Crisis Staff and War Presidency of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

20 Now, first, does that refresh your recollection as to whether

21 verification was discussed at that session of the assembly?

22 A. I don't know. I can't remember the details now. But -- that

23 this verification was needed, it was. It indicates that verification was

24 done three or four months later. The Crisis Staff acted in May, June,

25 and July. It indicates also that there was no normal political work at

Page 34037

1 that time. So you have verification three months later. I cannot

2 remember the details, but if this session was held, if all these people

3 were present, then, of course, the agenda is also true, as we see it, and

4 I believe that all these people listed here did attend.

5 Q. Now you -- you --

6 A. I am not sure about myself. I don't remember the details.

7 Q. Certainly in the normal course of business would you have

8 attended such a session; right?

9 A. I suppose so, yes.

10 MR. TRALDI: If we could have page 3 in the B/C/S and the bottom

11 of page 2 in the English.

12 Q. We see that item 4 reflects that following a debate, all

13 decisions and conclusions adopted by the Crisis Staff and War Presidency

14 of the ARK were verified.

15 Now, in paragraph 45 of your statement, you say the ARK

16 Crisis Staff never passed its decisions to anyone for verification except

17 to the ARK Assembly if it was able to convene. What I'm putting to you

18 is: The truth is the decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff and War

19 Presidency were verified by the assembly in their entirety; right?

20 A. Just a moment. What I wrote here in paragraph 45 was from my

21 recollection, and this here is the official position. Now I see that

22 this verification, indeed, was the rule.

23 Q. Now, before I leave the topic of relations between the ARK and

24 the central authorities, I want to discuss Mr. Brdjanin for a moment.

25 Now, first, you're aware that Mr. Brdjanin said Muslims and Croats had to

Page 34038

1 leave the ARK; right?

2 A. He said that a hundred times, but I have never seen an official

3 document saying that. That he -- that he talked about that, yes, he did.

4 He did not put it in an official document, though, of any institution

5 that he every belonged to.

6 Q. Now --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question was whether you are aware that

8 Mr. Brdjanin said that. Whether there's an official document is a

9 totally different question. Are you aware that he said that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

12 MR. TRALDI:

13 Q. You say in paragraph 26 of your statement that Brdjanin's

14 relations with the SDS were good for a time, but then he left the SDS and

15 formed his own party.

16 Now, your view in 2001, when your recollection was fresher, was

17 that Brdjanin had very good co-operation with the SDS president and the

18 assembly members and that the common goal which they shared brought them

19 together. Do you stand by that evidence today as truthful and accurate?

20 A. Mr. Brdjanin is a very impulsive person. He's very quick in

21 making decisions. And there were a lot of different situations you could

22 run into with him, both in his interactions with individuals and with

23 authorities.

24 MR. TRALDI: Let's have 65 ter 32352, page 25.

25 Q. And this will be part of your 2001 interview with the Office of

Page 34039

1 the Prosecutor.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Traldi, inform me if my question

3 anticipates one of your next questions, then I'll refrain from insisting

4 to have it answered.

5 Witness, could you tell us when did Mr. Brdjanin establish his

6 own party?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't tell you that. I can't

8 even tell you which year. Could have been 1994, I'm not sure. But I

9 know that he did establish his own party, and for a while, for perhaps

10 six months, it was active. I believe it was called the Popular Party.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

12 MR. TRALDI: If we could scroll down to the bottom of the page.

13 Q. And Ms. Sutherland asks you:

14 "Sorry. I can just -- maybe my question was not clear, but a

15 moment ago you said that Brdjanin had a good relationship with

16 politicians at the republic level."

17 You say:

18 "Yes, there's no question about that. He did have a good

19 relations."

20 And she asks you:

21 "With whom in particular?"

22 You answer:

23 "It's a personal question. How can he now say. His co-operation

24 with SDS president, with the assembly members, it was a very good

25 relationship. How close they were, he cannot tell you anything about

Page 34040

1 that, but it was obvious, he could feel it, that there was the common

2 goal that they all shared which brought them all together."

3 Do you stand by that portion of your interview today as truthful

4 and accurate?

5 A. You mean the last thing?

6 Q. What I -- what I just read to you.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And when you referred to the SDS president, of course, you meant

9 Mr. Karadzic; right?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, I'm still puzzled by some of the

11 language in which -- how to understand that, "but it was obvious, he

12 could feel it ..." Is that a bad recorded -- that you could feel it

13 or -- I'm puzzled by the language, especially the person who would have

14 felt something or could have told something.

15 MR. TRALDI: Let me try and clarify, if I may.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you could do, please.

17 MR. TRALDI:

18 Q. What this answer reflects is that you personally were able to

19 perceive that Brdjanin and Karadzic and assembly members had good

20 relationships and that the common goal that they all shared brought them

21 all together; right?

22 A. Inside four years, anything can happen in communication.

23 Quarrel, love, affection, disaffection. It's such a broad question that

24 I can't give you a direct answer.

25 Q. Sir, what I'm asking is what your answer in your interview that

Page 34041

1 you just said was truthful and you stood by reflects. What I'm putting

2 to you is that it reflects that you yourself were able to perceive that

3 Brdjanin, Karadzic, the assembly members had good relations and that

4 there was a common goal they shared which brought them together. That's

5 the truth; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I know it's a couple of minutes early

8 but I think that, for continuity, it may be a good time for the break.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could you tell us where you are in terms

10 of time?

11 MR. TRALDI: I think I will be much of the remainder of today,

12 certainly.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think you have some 45 minutes left, if

14 I'm --

15 MR. TRALDI: I expect to use most of that but hopefully not all

16 of it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Witness, you may follow the usher.

18 We'll take a break.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 1.12 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.

23 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting for the witness, I have one item left,

24 small one, in relation to P6727.

25 On the 8th of September of last year, the Chamber admitted P6727

Page 34042

1 into evidence but invited the parties to consider whether admission of a

2 smaller portion of this document would be acceptable. This can be found

3 at transcript page 25408.

4 On the 16th of March of this year, the Prosecution informed the

5 Chamber that the parties had agreed that they were going to rely on the

6 full text of P6727, and that it therefore should remain in evidence as

7 such. And the Chamber accepts the agreement between the parties.

8 [The witness takes the stand]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

10 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Sir, you were aware of the strategic objectives of the Bosnian

12 Serbs; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you learned of them in May 1992 on -- at or around the time

15 of the 16th Assembly; right?

16 A. Could you confirm for me what happened in May? On what grounds

17 could I assert that this was it or not?

18 Q. Well, one of the things that happened in May was that you

19 yourself attended the 16th Session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly on the

20 12th of May, 1992, in Banja Luka; right?

21 A. Yes, but now I should see the materials discussed at that

22 session.

23 Q. We're going to go step by step. First, it was your understanding

24 that it was the military's job to implement those strategic objectives;

25 right?

Page 34043

1 A. I can't tell you anything about this until I see what written

2 material you are relying on.

3 Q. Sir, you confirmed you were aware of the strategic objectives of

4 the Bosnian Serbs less than a page ago. What I'm putting to you now is:

5 You understood that it was the military's job to implement those

6 objectives that you just confirmed you were aware of. That's the truth;

7 right?

8 A. The first and the principle strategic objective in my opinion was

9 that we remain in the common state of Yugoslavia. We tried everything to

10 achieve that. It couldn't be achieved so we moved on.

11 Q. You're well aware when I refer to the strategic objectives I'm

12 referring to six objectives set out by Radovan Karadzic at the 16th

13 Assembly, none of which was explicitly a reference to remaining in

14 Yugoslavia; right?

15 A. Will you tell me what these six objectives are?

16 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested that the

17 objectives set out at the 16th Assembly included ethnic separation,

18 included the establishment of a corridor in the Posavina area, included

19 the Drina not being a border between Serb area -- or between different

20 areas, included control of the -- or included the establishment of

21 borders on the Una and Neretva rivers, included the division of Sarajevo,

22 and included access to the sea? Would that refresh your recollection?

23 A. Yes, you can say that.

24 Q. Now those are the strategic objectives were aware of; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 34044

1 Q. Now the ones most relevant to the ARK were the first, the second,

2 and the fourth; right?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Are you referring to -- perhaps you should summarise

4 those again.

5 MR. TRALDI:

6 Q. The ones most relevant to the ARK were ethnic separation, the

7 Posavina corridor, and the establishment of a border on the Una river;

8 right?

9 A. For me personally, the main objective was to achieve

10 communication, for the corridor to be established. The less -- the

11 others are less important, if you're asking me personally.

12 Q. And your understanding was that it was the military's job to

13 implement these various objectives; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in practice, beginning shortly after the 16th Assembly

16 Session, that meant the VRS, didn't it?

17 A. It meant what?

18 Q. When you agree that it was the military's job to implement these

19 objectives, that means it was the job of the Army of Republika Srpska;

20 right?

21 A. If political means fail, yes.

22 Q. By the time the objectives were set forth, conflict had already

23 started, take-overs had already started; right?

24 A. Conflict began even earlier.

25 Q. So these were objectives not conditionally to be implemented,

Page 34045

1 objectives to be implemented; right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you were aware at the time they were announced that assembly

4 members -- at least one assembly member from your ARK area understood the

5 strategic objectives to mean that Muslims who'd left areas claimed by the

6 Serbs wouldn't be able to return; right?

7 A. No, that's not correct. I don't think so. Everybody was

8 supposed to go back to their home.

9 MR. TRALDI: Well, let's have P431 --

10 JUDGE ORIE: It may be confusion here again.

11 Mr. Traldi was not asking you whether that was your opinion, but

12 he asked you whether at least one assembly member from your ARK area

13 understood the strategic objectives to mean that Muslims who'd left areas

14 claimed by the Serbs wouldn't be able to return. So not whether it was

15 your opinion but whether you were aware that at least one of the members

16 from your ARK area did have that opinion.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

19 MR. TRALDI:

20 Q. Are you confirming that you were, in fact, aware that at least

21 one of the members from the ARK understood the strategic objectives to

22 mean Muslims who had left couldn't come back?

23 A. We insisted on reciprocity as far as possible. Failing that,

24 then it should be the other way.

25 MR. TRALDI: Let's have page 20 in the English and 16 in the

Page 34046

1 B/C/S.

2 Starting at the top of the page in the English and towards the

3 bottom in the B/C/S, Miroslav Vjestica is speaking about Bosanska Krupa.

4 And if we could turn to the next page in the B/C/S. Just a few lines up

5 from the end of the long paragraph, he says:

6 "In pertinent part, on the right bank of the Una river, there are

7 no more Muslims in the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa. All the

8 enclaves that were there, Rapusa, Veliki Vrbovik, Ostroznica, Babic,

9 Muslim Jasenica and Zavir, we have evacuated them so that there will be

10 none there for the duration of war operations. Will they have a place to

11 return to? I think it is unlikely after our president told us the happy

12 news that the right bank of the Una is the border."

13 Q. Now, what Mr. Vjestica is saying here is that because of the

14 territorial objective, the fourth objective set out by

15 President Karadzic, the Muslims who have left that area won't be able to

16 come back; right?

17 A. Yes, but it is based on the fact that in the materials in

18 possession of the Muslim and Croat sides is also written that the Serbs

19 who had left areas that they control have no right to come back either.

20 Q. So is it right, then, that you agree that the policy was that

21 Muslims and Croats who left couldn't come back but you assert that

22 Muslims and Croats, their authorities had similar policies about Serbs

23 who had left. Is that your evidence?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Now, in paragraph 74 of your statement, you say in pertinent part

Page 34047

1 about people who left that it's clear that everyone had the right to

2 their property even after moving out. Now, you don't really know whether

3 people who left maintained any right to their property, do you?

4 A. I think that they had documentation which was sufficient at the

5 time stipulating that they can come back and keep their property,

6 especially since it was all recorded in land registers that had not been

7 tampered with during the war.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Paragraph 74 you referred to, Mr. Traldi?

9 MR. TRALDI: Yes. Though I grant that my notes appear to have

10 been in error on that as -- and I appreciate the correction, Your Honour.

11 I will look for a correct reference, but in the meantime, I do want to

12 call up one page of the witness's Karadzic testimony. And that's

13 65 ter 32348, page 9.

14 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that, I'd like to briefly

15 deal with a procedural matter.

16 The Chamber received information from the Victims and Witness

17 Section that the witness very much would like to travel back tomorrow and

18 therefore would prefer to continue today so as to conclude his testimony.

19 We know that you would need most of this session, Mr. Traldi. I

20 don't know how much time Mr. Lukic would need. What I do know is that

21 due to commitments elsewhere, that I'm unable to continue any longer than

22 2.30.

23 Therefore, Mr. Lukic, it's to some extent also in your hands,

24 depending on how much time you would need. Could you give us any

25 indication so that we could inform the witness about what he could

Page 34048

1 expect?

2 MR. LUKIC: As I can see, I have at least one session.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 Witness, we are aware that you asked whether we could conclude

5 today. It's almost for certain that we will not be able to do that.

6 Therefore, unfortunately, but inevitable, we would continue to hear your

7 evidence tomorrow morning, and we regret that we can't meet your request.

8 But at the same time, you'll under that it would be unfair to the Defence

9 not to give them time for re-examination, and they need more time than we

10 could deal with today.

11 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

12 MR. TRALDI: Can we have, please, page 9.

13 MR. LUKIC: If I may, before we continue, I'm sorry. This is

14 nothing related to the question of Mr. Traldi not posed yet.

15 I think that there is a flight tomorrow evening so maybe the

16 witness could inquire, since I cannot communicate with him, with the

17 Victims and Witness Unit. So maybe that flight to be organised for

18 tomorrow evening, if he has to leave tomorrow.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that VWU will carefully listen in to

22 our conversations and that they are therefore alerted to it already.

23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And I think that both VWS and the witness would

25 appreciate your intervention.

Page 34049

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. TRALDI:

3 Q. Sir, regarding what you just testified about, your suggestion

4 that people kept the right to their property, in your Karadzic testimony,

5 beginning at line 13, you were asked:

6 "Now, in fact, Mr. Erceg, you don't really know much about this

7 at all and you don't know, really, whether people had the right to their

8 property or not. And you even acknowledged that in your own statement at

9 a later portion. That's the case, isn't it? You don't know much about

10 this issue and you admitted it in your statement at paragraph 85?"

11 Now --

12 A. I don't know much, that's true, but I know that the land register

13 is -- has greater legal force in all matters of property. So anyone who

14 came back should not have any problems retaking their property.

15 Q. So when you agreed in the Karadzic case that you didn't know very

16 much about this issue, your position now is that you do know things about

17 this issue; is that right?

18 A. I don't know enough. I know that there are land registers. I

19 know that there are records issued by municipalities and various organs.

20 Who received what kind of paper, I cannot tell you with any degree of

21 certainty what the real truth is. My answer can be both what I said in

22 Karadzic and the one I gave you here. We are talking about nuances of

23 meaning, and I'm not a lawyer. You should not lend greater importance to

24 the form that I answer in. I have no legal expertise, and I cannot find

25 my way around those details in which the date sometimes means to me more

Page 34050

1 than the substance.

2 Q. Sir --

3 A. That's why it's difficult for me to communicate with you.

4 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you now a couple of fairly simple questions

5 and I'd encourage you to start the form of your answer with a yes or a

6 no.

7 The first is: Of these people who were leave, the majority

8 were -- the overwhelming majority were Muslims or Croats; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you were aware that there were forced expulsions of Muslims

11 and Croats from the ARK; right?

12 A. Yes. But please, not forced, judging by the records provided by

13 any institution, but one neighbour would expel another for God knows

14 which reasons. I'm just stating that as an example.

15 Q. Now, going back to the 16th Assembly Session we were discussing a

16 moment ago, the president of your Crisis Staff, Mr. Brdjanin, endorsed

17 liquidating key Muslims at that session; right?

18 A. I don't know. I don't remember that.

19 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P431 back, please. I'll be looking for

20 page 17 in the English and 14 in the B/C/S. Now -- and we have 17 only

21 in the B/C/S, it appears. We're looking for 17 in the English; 14 in the

22 B/C/S.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We still haven't gotten 14 in the B/C/S. Now we

24 have again two times 17 in the B/C/S.

25 MR. TRALDI:

Page 34051

1 Q. Sir, let me put to you the evidence the Chamber has received.

2 The Chamber has received evidence that at this session, Dragan Kalinic

3 said in pertinent part:

4 "Among all the issues this assembly should decide on, the most

5 important one is this: Have we chosen the option of war or the option of

6 negotiating."

7 You can see it now in the second paragraph of his remarks.

8 He says:

9 "I say this with a reason. I must instantly add that knowing who

10 our enemy is, how perfidious they are, how they cannot be trusted until

11 they are physically, militarily destroyed and crushed, which, of course,

12 implies eliminating and liquidating their key people, I do not hesitate

13 in selecting the first option, the option of war."

14 MR. TRALDI: Now if we could turn to page 24 in the English and

15 20 in the B/C/S.

16 Q. And you can see in the middle of your screen Mr. Brdjanin speak,

17 and in the beginning of his remarks he says:

18 "I would like to say a heart-felt bravo to Mr. Kalinic" --

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not sure if we have the right page in English

20 on the screen.

21 MR. TRALDI: We don't. Again, for efficiency, I'll just put the

22 evidence to the witness.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

24 MR. TRALDI:

25 Q. The Chamber has received evidence that at this same session,

Page 34052

1 Mr. Brdjanin said:

2 "I'd like to say a heart-felt bravo to Mr. Kalinic. In all my

3 appearances in this joint assembly, it has never crossed my mind that,

4 although he seems quiet while I seem hawkish, his opinions are the

5 closest to mine."

6 So Brdjanin is endorsing Kalinic's remarks; right?

7 A. That's why there is a written record, yes.

8 Q. And at the time he is speaking as the president of the

9 Crisis Staff, the highest authority in the ARK; right?

10 A. Yes, if it was the relevant period. I haven't seen the dates up

11 on the top but probably it is so.

12 Q. Now, sir, in paragraph 91 of your statement, you state you were

13 present at ARK Crisis Staff meetings when Omarska and Keraterm were

14 mentioned. Now, as a result, when you say in paragraph 89, that:

15 "Remand prisons and camps were never discussed at the Crisis Staff

16 meetings," that's not the truth, is it?

17 A. Well, I think that there were few discussions of -- about these

18 issues. I attended a few meetings of the Crisis Staffs because I had

19 obligations in the Federal Assembly in Belgrade, too, and I was often

20 absent. Whether it was discussed or not, I don't know, but I didn't hear

21 this.

22 Q. In that same paragraph, 89, you discuss your visit to Trnopolje.

23 That visit was at the end of August 1992; right?

24 A. Yes, I think it was in late August. I don't know exactly, but I

25 think so.

Page 34053

1 Q. And as far as you remember, Trnopolje was run by the army; right?

2 A. I think so.

3 Q. That means the VRS?

4 A. Excuse me?

5 Q. The VRS, the Army of Republika Srpska; yes?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, on your visit you didn't speak to any detainees at all;

8 right?

9 A. I didn't. I wanted to play a role. I wanted to claim that I did

10 not speak Serbian, that I was a foreigner, and that I wanted to hear what

11 went on there. And I was surprised that the situation was relaxed, at

12 least on the day when we were there. I could see that there was a

13 makeshift hospital and first aid and so on and so forth. So I could see

14 that the situation was not tense in any way. And to be honest, I was

15 surprised by this. I heard some issues which are not for this Court

16 which confirmed that it was not a drastic and difficult situation.

17 Whether it was like that only on that specific day or otherwise too, no,

18 I wouldn't really go into that.

19 Q. Now the Chamber has received evidence that international monitors

20 who visited around the same time found detainees living in terror, found

21 food deficiencies, and suggested they should all be released. Did you

22 not notice when you visited that the inmates were living in terror and

23 that there were food shortages?

24 A. There's no doubt about that, if it's a prison behind a wire, that

25 there was terror, yes. But they convinced me that in terms of food and

Page 34054

1 other necessities, that everything was available in adequate supplies.

2 Because I could see that there was an ambulance there, and so on.

3 Q. Now, you refer in paragraph 48 to a meeting that you attended,

4 and you refer to it by its Karadzic exhibit number. But that meeting was

5 shortly after your visit to Trnopolje; right?

6 A. Paragraph 48 deals with the visit of Finance Minister

7 Petra Markovic, who came to visit me.

8 Q. Let's have --

9 A. Or at least in the version that I have.

10 MR. TRALDI: Let's have P3880.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I seek clarification of one of your

12 previous answers. You said:

13 "Whether it was like that only on that specific day or otherwise

14 too, no, I wouldn't really go into that."

15 Is it your evidence that you don't know whether it was on the

16 other days the same, or is it that you do know but you think it better

17 not to address it?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what the situation was

19 like. I only visited Trnopolje once, and also only visited Manjaca once.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, the witness saying that he doesn't know

21 in more general terms, of course, you could -- you could consider that

22 the Chamber would rely on other evidence where the witness cannot provide

23 any additional information about the other days.

24 MR. TRALDI: Yes, and I would, Mr. President, but I do want to

25 take the witness to this meeting --

Page 34055

1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not keeping you from that, but please proceed.

2 MR. TRALDI:

3 Q. Now this is a document from the 1st Krajina Corps command,

4 2nd of September, 1992. This is the document that, though under a

5 different number, is described in that paragraph of your statement.

6 Now, in the first paragraph we see a reference to the attendees.

7 It includes an ICRC representative. It includes, on our side,

8 Dragan Kalinic, Mr. Nikola Erceg, Mr. Predrag Radic, Stojan Zupljanin,

9 and Colonel Milutin Vukelic on behalf of the 1st Krajina Corps command.

10 So it's correct that very shortly after the meeting that -- or after your

11 visit to Trnopolje, you had a meeting with the Red Cross. And it says

12 here the meeting addressed all the general issues linked with the London

13 Conference documents that refer to the unconditional closure of all

14 prisoner of war camps.

15 So you had a meeting with the Red Cross about the camps just

16 after your visit to Trnopolje; right?

17 A. Yes, well, I suppose so. I cannot really judge that now because

18 I don't see the dates. This is the 2nd of September. Yes, I think it

19 was soon thereafter.

20 Q. And by this time, the terrible criminal conditions in the Bosnian

21 Serb-run detention facilities were widely and publicly known; right?

22 A. It was known thanks to the media, which described many things

23 from a different angle.

24 Q. Well, the Red Cross who you met with had also been publicly

25 decrying the conditions in those camps for a month or more at the time

Page 34056

1 you met with them. You must have become aware of that either during the

2 meeting or during your preparations for it, mustn't you?

3 A. It is quite logical that every camp has to be criticised and that

4 there are many objections to any sort of camp. As long as it's a camp,

5 it's out of bounds of everything that is normal and humane, so I am aware

6 that there was a need to criticise this in every possible way.

7 Q. I just want to look at some of the ICRC's public criticisms

8 briefly with you.

9 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 10866.

10 This is a statement by Cornelio Sommaruga, president of the ICRC,

11 dated the 29th of July. And if we turn to page 2 in both languages, in

12 the middle of the fourth paragraph we refer to allegations of the

13 terrible ravages of ethnic cleansing, in whose name whole populations are

14 being terrorised, minorities intimidated and harassed, civilians interned

15 on a massive scale.

16 Q. Now, you were aware -- you were made aware during your meeting

17 with the Red Cross that they understood civilians to be being interned in

18 the ARK on a massive scale by the Bosnian Serb authorities; right?

19 A. I don't know whether they were all civilians. I'm not so sure

20 about that. I suppose that there were civilians too.

21 Q. I'm not asking for the moment whether all the people in detention

22 were civilians. What I'm putting to you was: You were made aware,

23 during the meeting or before it, of the detention of massive numbers of

24 civilians in the ARK as reflected here; right?

25 A. I learned that at this meeting. I hadn't known it previously.

Page 34057

1 MR. TRALDI: Can we see 65 ter 10867.

2 Again, this is a press release from the Red Cross. In the first

3 paragraph it discusses visits its delegates have conducted to places of

4 detention in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It says it is evident to the ICRC that

5 innocent civilians are being arrested and subjected to inhumane

6 treatment. And that, moreover, the detention of such persons is part of

7 a policy of forced population transfers carried out on a massive scale

8 and marked by the systematic use of brutality.

9 Q. That's also information you learned at this meeting, if you

10 hadn't known it before; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 10866 and 10867

13 [Realtime transcript read in error "10876"].

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10866 receives number Exhibit P7292.

16 And document 10876 -- 10867 -- it's wrongly noted in the transcript. So

17 document -- I'll repeat from the beginning.

18 10866 receives number P7292. And document 10867 receives number

19 P7293, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: P7292 and P7293 are admitted into evidence.

23 Mr. Traldi.

24 MR. TRALDI: I see the time. I have, I would say, about

25 ten minutes of questions remaining and I'm in the Chamber's hands.