150421IT

Page 34449

1 Mr. Jeremy.

2 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours, and good morning.

3 WITNESS: BRANKO BASARA [Resumed]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 [Witness testified via videolink]

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy: [Continued]

7 Q. Good morning, Colonel Basara.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. Now we finished our discussion yesterday discussing your

10 attendance at a meeting in Kljuc on the 14th of May, 1992 at which the

11 strategic goals were discussed.

12 Now, you said that you missed various parts of this meeting

13 because were -- you happened to be outside trying to stop some soldiers

14 firing into the air.

15 You also said that now you -- you can't remember whether you may

16 or may not have known about the strategic goals at the time of the war.

17 That's correct, isn't it?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Now, the first strategic goal that was outlined at this meeting

20 in Kljuc on the 14th of May, 1992 was that there must be state separation

21 of the three national communities.

22 Now, in paragraph 19 of your statement, D1031, you -- you say

23 that you -- you know that the attitude of the SDS people was to have the

24 three national communities separated, you say, so each could live in

25 peace.

Page 34450

1 So we can agree that you -- that you knew about this particular

2 strategic goal; correct?

3 A. Yes. But I wasn't aware that it was called strategic objectives.

4 I just thought it was the situation in the field.

5 Q. So you simply understood it as a war goal; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, in your 2009 interview with the Office of the Prosecutor,

8 you discussed the attitude of the municipal staffs, such as deputies in

9 the assembly, towards resettlement of the non-Serb population in

10 Sanski Most.

11 Now, you would agree with me that many of the SDS in Sanski Most

12 were in favour of resettling non-Serb villagers there; correct?

13 A. Well, it is partially correct, but they were the minority. There

14 was a small group of deputies in the assembly who were advocating that

15 idea, for the others to move out.

16 Q. And that minority, they were the persons who found themselves in

17 the Crisis Staff of Sanski Most; yes? Persons such as Rasula, such as

18 Vlado Vrkes?

19 A. Well, Rasula was one of them who were in favour of it. Vrkes was

20 a bit more diplomatic about all of that, and he wasn't quite as

21 outspoken, although he, too, was probably in favour of it.

22 Q. Now, this Chamber has received evidence that this -- this notion

23 of separation of Serbs from the Muslim and Croat people was something

24 that the 1st Krajina Corps communicated to all the units within the corps

25 and that's P2874 in this case.

Page 34451

1 Now, as regards the dissemination to the units of this -- this

2 particular war goal and, indeed, the six strategic objectives, you said

3 yesterday that this could have taken place in the battalion commands or

4 the brigade commands. That's correct, yes?

5 A. Well, if you found that order in the brigade command, then in all

6 likelihood it was the brigade command that received it, and parts of

7 their commands and battalions may have been made aware, whereas there was

8 only one brigade, my brigade. In other words, as regards any

9 dissemination among the fighters themselves, at that point in time, it

10 was an impossible thing to do.

11 Q. Well, would you agree that it was possible that dissemination

12 could have occurred in the command of the battalions, would you agree

13 with that?

14 A. Probably so. As I said, I can't assert that, but all received

15 orders, all orders received by battalion commands are forwarded to the

16 battalion commanders. They are made aware of them.

17 Q. Now there's evidence in this case that's exactly what happened in

18 your brigade; for example, P7070, which is a military notebook of a

19 former Intel officer in your brigade. Now I'd like to show you another

20 military notebook that --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: P what?

22 MR. JEREMY: P7070.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we get it corrected.

24 MR. JEREMY:

25 Q. Now, Colonel Basara, I'd like to show you another military

Page 34452

1 notebook that is in the possession of the Prosecution that we believe

2 belongs to someone at the command level in the brigade.

3 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 31873.

4 Q. Now, Colonel Basara, while we are not clear of who the exact

5 individual author of this particular military notebook is, it's clear

6 from our review that this is a contemporaneous record of events during

7 1992. It includes a number of diary entries which I would like to take

8 you to now or -- a couple of which I'd like to take you to now.

9 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to page 12 in the English? Page

10 10 in the B/C/S.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: Just for the record it mays May 1997, so I don't know

13 if it's a proper representation of the document.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, it says on the front of -- Mr. Lukic

16 is absolutely right, it says on the front page May 1997. As I understand

17 it that page was provided by the persons who had handed the document to

18 the Office of the Prosecutor. It came from AID in -- from Bosnia.

19 The -- as I mentioned, we don't know the exact person who authored this

20 particular war diary but what is clear is it's a contemporaneous record

21 of events. The entries are corroborated by various other diaries that we

22 do have in evidence, such as P7070, and there's -- clearly indications of

23 meetings of battalion commanders in the brigades. So --

24 JUDGE ORIE: It's the Prosecution position is that it is

25 contemporaneous, although 1997 appears on the cover page.

Page 34453

1 MR. JEREMY: That's right, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on.

3 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to page -- yes, with -- and page

4 10 in the B/C/S. I'd like to focus on the right side, please.

5 Q. So, Colonel Basara, we see in this military notebook on the

6 screen before you that there is a reference to a meeting in Kljuc on the

7 13th of May, 1992. Various items are detailed.

8 If we go to the next entry, the 14th of May, 1992, we see a

9 reference to strategic goals and the first one being state separation

10 from other two communities. And seven goals here are listed.

11 If we can to the next page, please, in both the B/C/S and the

12 English. And if we can focus on the left side in the B/C/S, please.

13 Now, here we see a reference to a meeting on the 14th of May,

14 1992. There's a reference to General Mladic. Now it's -- it's my

15 understanding from other evidence, Colonel Basara, that General Mladic

16 was not actually at this meeting. But my question for you is that this,

17 nevertheless, is information originating from General Mladic that's being

18 relayed down the chain of command to units in your brigades; correct?

19 A. The tasks the document refers to cannot have anything to do with

20 my brigade because my brigade was not in Kljuc. It has do with the Kljuc

21 brigade.

22 Q. Sir --

23 A. The person writing this, writing this document, most likely came

24 from the Kljuc Brigade.

25 Q. Sir, just to be clear, my -- I'll focus my question. Where we

Page 34454

1 see this reference to General Mladic and we read below it: "The new

2 territory should have geography latitude that can be successfully

3 defended.

4 "Displacement according to the ethnic principle is also planned."

5 That's an example of information from General Mladic being

6 relayed to a person in -- to persons within your units. And we can go to

7 other entries of this diary if necessary that will show you that this is,

8 indeed, a unit in the 6th Brigade.

9 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: I'm really puzzled with this document. It says we

12 don't know who composed the document. Then it is said General Mladic was

13 not there but this is what he said. So I really cannot comprehend

14 properly what is going on here.

15 JUDGE ORIE: One second. I don't know whether I did hear you say

16 that this is what General Mladic said but that it's -- comes from him.

17 MR. JEREMY: Yes --

18 JUDGE ORIE: If I understood it, your representation.

19 MR. LUKIC: Then who said that General Mladic said this? There

20 is no data we can verify in any way.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you have any such questions, I agree

22 with you that you may be very precise in the way in which Mr. Jeremy

23 presents a document what it is, but any questions as to the content of it

24 and how to understand it you can deal with that matter in re-examination.

25 MR. LUKIC: But it's also suggested to this witness that this is

Page 34455

1 something that is ordered for his unit.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, that's the difference between

3 examination-in-chief and cross-examination. You can lead the witness in

4 the understanding of a document and it's improper to intervene at this --

5 in this way. And, of course, you can revisit the matter in

6 re-examination.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy. But you may be very precise in what

8 it is. That's a different matter that -- as to how to understand it.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. JEREMY:

11 Q. Colonel Basara, assuming that this notebook does belong to a unit

12 in the 6th Brigade, then what we see before us at this meeting on the

13 14th of May, 1992 is an example of a comment here which is "displacement

14 according to the ethnic principle is also planned," a comment that

15 appears to be attributed to General Mladic being relayed to members of a

16 unit in the 6th Brigade; correct?

17 A. This does not refer to the 6th Brigade because at the top of the

18 document we find Kljuc and the date. In other words, it is an officer

19 who in all likelihood was a SDS member in Kljuc who wrote this.

20 Therefore, this does not pertain to my brigade, and I cannot offer any

21 comment.

22 Q. Well, so the reference to Kljuc is a reference to the meeting

23 on -- as I understand it and the Prosecution understand it, is a

24 reference to the meeting in Kljuc on the 14th of May, 1992 that we have

25 discussed and that you were present at.

Page 34456

1 A. When I see the heading where it says "Kljuc," it was my

2 understanding that it had nothing to do with the 6th Brigade but that it

3 belonged probably to a SDS member who was part of the 6th Brigade. In

4 other words, as I said already, I cannot accept this document or offer

5 any comment.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you don't have to accept any document. It

7 is put before you. Apparently you are not familiar with the document.

8 Whether it's an example of one thing or another and how you interpreted

9 it at this moment is not a matter of fact within your knowledge.

10 Mr. Jeremy, you more or less asking for an exegesis of this

11 document at this moment and perhaps you better move on.

12 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours. And it may be that I

13 return to this particular document so I'd like to MFI it for now and I

14 would also like to -- to put on the record that this particular entry is

15 closely corroborated by evidence that we have from -- from another diary,

16 Dragan Karic's diary, which is P7070.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: 31873 receives number P7321.

19 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, I was involved -- we would object to

20 introducing this document through this witness based on the facts we just

21 heard.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I think at this moment Mr. Jeremy asked for it to be

23 MFI'd so whether admission is appropriate for this document through this

24 witnesses is --

25 MR. LUKIC: What's the -- what would be cured after it being

Page 34457

1 MFI'd. It's offered through this witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

3 MR. LUKIC: Can we hear from Mr. Jeremy.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, this witness [sic] has been put to the

5 witness at this moment and for that reason it is important that we know

6 what document was put before him. Now, whether it is a document which is

7 admissible in evidence is a different question. We limit ourselves at

8 this moment to the request to have it marked for identification and for a

9 full record it's important to know at least what was put to the witness.

10 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I don't remember that we MFI'd

11 everything that was put in front of the witness, every single witness in

12 this case. And I think that was not the procedure we had before.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Jeremy apparently wants to give it a

14 follow-up and during the follow-up you are free to argue whatever you

15 want as to admissibility, or even whether it was appropriate at all to

16 put to the witness. For this moment, it is just an administrative step.

17 It will be marked for identification.

18 Madam Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number P7321.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence -- no. That's the

21 last thing I should have said.

22 It's marked for identification.

23 MR. JEREMY:

24 Q. Now, Colonel Basara --

25 MR. LUKIC: Sorry. P7070 is not on the list so we cannot work

Page 34458

1 with that one.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: If it's a P number, it's already in evidence.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have to be prepared for this,

4 Your Honour. We don't have that document. The practice is that the

5 documents that will be used in cross-examination have to be on the list

6 offered as list with the witness.

7 MR. JEREMY: That's absolutely right, Your Honours and that's why

8 I haven't used P7070 with this particular witness. Prosecution can't

9 possibly put every document that it has in evidence on its witness list.

10 MR. LUKIC: So now we can use the document that are not on the

11 list. That was not the rule that applied to the --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

13 MR. LUKIC: Defence --

14 JUDGE ORIE: You're not telling us that you never used a document

15 which was not on your list, are you? It happened now and then, isn't it.

16 MR. LUKIC: It happened.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And it happens now with the Prosecution. Again,

18 it's marked for identification, nothing more, nothing less.

19 MR. LUKIC: It's not that one. It's the other one.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, I'm sorry. Then I am confusing matters.

21 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I have simply made a reference to a

22 document that's already in evidence. It's not the document that I've

23 shown to the witness.

24 MR. LUKIC: That's different then.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's just a reference. It's clear from the

Page 34459

1 record.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, that is a -- that item is moot.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Q. Now, Colonel Basara, yesterday you told us that you attended

6 meetings of the Crisis Staff of Sanski Most during 1992; correct?

7 A. It is. But I did not attend all of them. Only a few.

8 Q. Now, you were actually a member of the Crisis Staff, were you

9 not, Colonel Basara?

10 A. I've already told you ten times that I was not a member of the

11 Crisis Staff, and I think that this is unnecessary. It's unnecessary for

12 you to ask me yet again whether I was a member of the Crisis Staff when I

13 was not a member of the Crisis Staff and when I could not have been

14 subordinated to the civilian authorities.

15 Q. Well, Colonel, that's the first time I've asked you that

16 question, but I'd like to show you a few documents in connection with

17 this that I hope with provide some clarity.

18 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P3294. And this the diary of

19 Nedjeljko Rasula. And if we can go to page 40 in the English, please,

20 and 30 in the B/C/S.

21 And if we can focus on the right-hand side of the page in the

22 B/C/S, please.

23 Q. So, Colonel, I don't want to spend too much time on this, but we

24 see a reference to a Crisis Staff meeting on the 11th of May, 1992. We

25 see the heading, Execution of tasks assigned in previous meetings. And

Page 34460

1 we see that the first point here is "Basara awaiting orders from above to

2 become a member of the War Staff as the Crisis Staff is to be referred to

3 until further notice."

4 Now, Colonel Basara, seeing this entry in Rasula's diary, this

5 entry to this Crisis Staff meeting, do you recall requesting

6 authorisation to become a member of the Crisis Staff or of the -- of the

7 War Staff?

8 MR. LUKIC: Objection.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We could --

10 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... just a moment,

11 please. Could you stop.

12 [In English] It's not what it says in the document.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is it a translation issue or is that you -- let's

14 first establish. Is there anything wrong with the translation?

15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, obviously there is a translation issue.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

17 MR. LUKIC: Maybe the translators could read the first sentence

18 under one.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You know this is usually not the place where we

20 verify translations but under these present circumstances, in order to

21 avoid that we choose a path which is based on a wrong translation, could

22 you please slowly read that first entry in your language, Mr. Lukic.

23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

24 I quote: "[Interpretation] Basara expects orders from above in

25 order to enter the War Staff."

Page 34461

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not the Crisis Staff.

2 MR. LUKIC: And it's not "become a member" but "enter."

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. LUKIC: In which way he would enter, it's debatable.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

6 Mr. Jeremy, the final resolution of the language issue not being

7 there yet, could you again put the question to the witness offering the

8 two -- the two possible translations of that one word.

9 And, Witness, you were not asked to comment on the word "War

10 Staff," that was part of the question already. Carefully listen to the

11 question as will now be phrased by Mr. Jeremy.

12 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours. And I'll go with the

13 version that Mr. Lukic read out.

14 Q. So, Colonel Basara, do you agree that you, at the point of 11th

15 of May, 1992, you were awaiting orders from above to enter into the --

16 the War Staff, as the Crisis Staff was to be referred to until further

17 notice.

18 Do you agree that you were awaiting for those orders from above?

19 A. I was not awaiting any orders. That I know. So why Rasula wrote

20 that, I have no idea.

21 Q. And I take it that your answer would be the same if the version

22 was to read that you were awaiting orders to become a member of the --

23 the War Staff; correct?

24 A. The War Staff did not exist because a state of war had not been

25 declared.

Page 34462

1 Q. It's clear -- you will agree that it's clear from this entry that

2 Rasula obviously thought that a War Staff did exist and he considered

3 this to be the new name for the Crisis Staff?

4 A. That I cannot say. I mean, I cannot assert what it was Rasula

5 was thinking.

6 Q. Sir --

7 A. -- I cannot comment upon that.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that's understood. Thank

9 you, Colonel Basara. I've got a couple of other documents on this same

10 topic I don't think we need to look at all of them but there's evidence

11 in this case that at the end of this same month, May 1992, there are

12 conclusions of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Sanski

13 Most which, again, which records you as being a member of the Crisis

14 Staff. Now, these conclusions were on the 30th of May, 1992, so shortly

15 after the events in Mahala. Does that prompt your recollection that you

16 might have perhaps joined the Crisis Staff immediately after the events

17 in Mahala in -- shortly before events in Hrustovo and Vrhpolje?

18 A. I think that this is unnecessary, to put questions at all about

19 the Crisis Staff because I as commander, as a professional could not have

20 allowed --

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, I have

22 to stop you here.

23 You may not understand but it's in fairness to you that

24 Mr. Jeremy puts to you what is found in documentary evidence which

25 contradicts your testimony. That's the reason why he does it and that's

Page 34463

1 a good reason.

2 Would you refrain from commenting on whether or not it's good to

3 ask certain questions and whether it's appropriate to do it or to do it

4 more times. We'll deal with that.

5 Please proceed.

6 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. So, Colonel Basara, I take it that my -- my prompt about the

8 timing of this particular conclusion on the 30th of May, 1992 indicating

9 that you were, indeed, a member of the Crisis Staff doesn't refresh your

10 recollection; is that correct?

11 A. It's not necessary to refresh my recollection about the Crisis

12 Staff. I have told you that I'm a professional soldier, a brigade

13 commander, who did not want to place himself under the command of the

14 civilian structures, and I did not accept that, and that is how I stayed

15 on until the very end.

16 Q. But, Colonel Basara, it's correct, is it not, that you were a

17 member of the Crisis Staff in your very capacity as a brigade commander.

18 That's -- that's the reason -- that's the very -- an express reason that

19 you were actually on the Crisis Staff in the first place. That's --

20 that's correct, is it not?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Let's take a look at a final document in connection with this

23 topic.

24 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P4161.

25 Q. Now, Colonel Basara, these are some conclusions of the Crisis

Page 34464

1 Staff of the Serbian municipality of Sanski Most. They are dated the

2 19th of June, 1992. And we see they're conclusions from a meeting on the

3 18th of June 1992.

4 Now, we see that there are lists of two -- two sets of names.

5 The first set are permanent members of the Crisis Staff and we see number

6 7, Branko Basara.

7 Now, we see this list of what looks like two tiers of

8 responsibility of persons in the municipality and you're in the first

9 list, the permanent list. So does the permanence of your role within the

10 Crisis Staff, does that perhaps refresh your recollection that you were,

11 indeed, a member?

12 A. No. I was not any kind of member of the Crisis Staff. Why they

13 wrote my name down there, I have no idea. Probably because I attended

14 certain meetings.

15 Q. Okay. Let's move on to a different topic.

16 Now, I'd like to discuss your relationship with the -- with the

17 civilian police.

18 Now as brigade commander, you regularly met with the chief of

19 police, Mirko Vrucinic. That's correct, isn't it?

20 A. Not regularly. When necessary.

21 Q. Well, okay. Let's explore that a little bit. Now,

22 Mirko Vrucinic was actually your chief of intelligence in the 6th Brigade

23 while you were in Jasenovac. That's -- that's true; yes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And for a short period of time, he -- he continued to be your

Page 34465

1 chief of intelligence after your brigade was transferred to Sanski Most

2 on the 3rd of April, 1992. That's also correct; yes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you knew one another well.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, Nedjeljko Rasula requested that Vrucinic be reassigned from

7 your units -- from your brigade to the head of the MUP in Sanski Most;

8 correct?

9 A. The Secretary for National Defence asked, and he is in charge of

10 manning the brigade and manning the police.

11 Q. Now, when you were asked about this during the Stanisic/Zupljanin

12 testimony, you -- you stated that it -- it was Nedjeljko Rasula who

13 requested that Vrucinic be police commander in Sanski Most. Does that --

14 was that answer correct?

15 A. He asked the secretary. In fact, he asked his own organ and then

16 that organ asked me for approval to have Vrucinic appointed chief of

17 police.

18 Q. Okay. That's clear. Thank you. Now you considered

19 Mirko Vrucinic to be very skilled at his job; yes?

20 A. I consider that today as well.

21 Q. And you therefore co-operated well; yes?

22 A. I've already said that I had good co-operation when necessary.

23 Not regularly, as you had stated.

24 Q. And it was necessary for you to have this good co-operation

25 during, for example, military operations that your brigade was engaged in

Page 34466

1 within Sanski Most. That's correct; yes?

2 A. Co-operation was mainly through security organs. They collected

3 information about Muslims and Croats who had weapons. That is where most

4 of the co-operation took place.

5 As for some operations, there was no co-operation there

6 whatsoever. We did not carry out certain actions together.

7 Q. And those actions were, for example, actions in Mahala, Hrustovo

8 and Vrhpolje; correct?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you carry out any disarming operations with the civilian

11 military in, for example, Mahala at all?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Let's have a quick look at a document, please, in connection ...

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, you are recorded - and that's what I

15 think I heard - to have spoken about the civilian military.

16 Could you please rephrase that question, seek an answer again,

17 and then move on.

18 MR. JEREMY: Thank you. Thank you for that, Your Honour.

19 Q. Colonel Basara, my question for you is whether Mirko Vrucinic and

20 his civilian police carried out any disarming operations in co-operation

21 with your brigade in, for example, Mahala?

22 A. As far as I know, I did not discuss disarming in Mahala with

23 anyone. I had enough information. Mahala is small, in terms of

24 territory. That is to say, it is a neighbourhood. I thought that I had

25 enough men in order to check things out and to disarm people. If there

Page 34467

1 is some co-operation, then the co-operation is in terms of information as

2 to who has weapons so that they could be taken away.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one question to the witness at this

4 point in time.

5 Mr. Basara, a moment ago, you said, "we carried out certain

6 actions together." Co-operation in exchanging - wait a moment, please.

7 Co-operation in exchanging information is one thing, but you said certain

8 actions. Which kind of actions did you carry out together?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that we were carrying

10 out actions together because I had enough forces to act independently and

11 that has to do with disarmament.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we're --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If they, along parallel lines --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we'll verify what you said on the basis of

15 the audio, whether you said that you carried out -- that you were

16 involved in actions together. We'll try to have that done as soon as

17 possible.

18 But you're now saying that you were not co-operating in action?

19 Mr. Lukic, yes.

20 MR. LUKIC: Maybe the witness should take off his headphones.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first, we should ask the witness whether the

22 witness understands any English because I don't know exactly what is

23 audible at the other side.

24 Witness, could you tell us whether you understand the English

25 language?

Page 34468

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I studied French.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we'll not speak French.

3 Could you please take off your earphones for a second.

4 Mr. Lukic, you're instructed not to speak French.

5 MR. LUKIC: I'm on the safe side. I don't speak French unlike

6 you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

8 MR. LUKIC: The witness what we heard said "nismo," which means

9 we were not. And it was translated "mi smo," we were. So --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us the exact page and line reference

11 so that.

12 MR. LUKIC: Where it was recorded that he said we carried out,

13 yes.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is page 19, line 25. Page 18, line 25.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It says we carried out certain actions together.

17 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, it says.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And [Overlapping speakers] ...

19 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

20 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have that verified, Mr. Lukic, and as you know

21 you're always welcome if there's any problem in terms of translation or

22 interpretation or transcription.

23 I ...

24 Could the witness be invited to put on his headphones again.

25 We'll continue.

Page 34469

1 Mr. Jeremy.

2 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Q. So, Colonel Basara, as I understand it, it's your position that

4 the 6th Brigade did not co-operate with the civilian police with the SJB

5 in -- in any disarming operations in Sanski Most. Is that -- is that

6 your position?

7 A. Co-operation that was carried out, as I've already said, for

8 collecting information. Together -- the units and the MUP did not act

9 together anywhere.

10 Q. So not co-operation for the purpose of disarming; is that -- is

11 that your position?

12 A. Carrying out actions.

13 Q. My question is just to clarify your answer. You're saying that

14 you did not co-operate with the SJB in any disarming operations in

15 Sanski Most.

16 A. I don't know what kind of co-operation you mean. Do explain that

17 to me.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, there may be a little problem. You

19 asked whether there was co-operation. Earlier the witness said there was

20 co-operation but limited to intelligence.

21 Now, if you ask him again whether there was any co-operation, the

22 witness is still in doubt as to what kind of co-operation.

23 Do I take it that are you asking the witness whether there was

24 any co-operation in the field during such operations? Is that what you

25 intend to ask the witness.

Page 34470

1 MR. JEREMY: Yes, any co-operation in the course of disarming

2 actions.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in the field.

4 MR. JEREMY: In the field.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's --

6 Witness, you've heard the question. That is, whether it's your

7 position that there was never any co-operation between your brigade and

8 the civilian police during disarming operations. That means co-operation

9 in the field.

10 Could you answer that question.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not co-operate because I, as

12 commander, when I planned and organised activities, I did not involve the

13 MUP.

14 Now, whether some of them, somewhere, got involved without any

15 agreement having been reached on that, I cannot say.

16 MR. JEREMY:

17 Q. Well, Colonel Basara, given your close relationship with

18 Mirko Vrucinic, how likely is it that members of his police force would

19 have been involved in operations together with members of your brigade

20 that you were not aware of? It's not very likely, is it?

21 A. That could have happened only in the case of individuals who

22 could, together with their neighbours or relatives, become involved.

23 However, the civilian police was never involved to resolve this in the

24 field together with the brigade. Except for intelligence.

25 Q. Okay. That's -- your position is clear.

Page 34471

1 So how about the Territorial Defence? They were -- they were

2 involved in disarming operations together with the 6th Brigade; yes?

3 A. Likewise, they were not under my command, and they did not do

4 that. If they did that, they could have on orders from the Crisis Staff

5 along parallel lines, for example, while we are disarming one village, at

6 that time they could have been disarming another village because I know

7 where I issued orders, which villages I had disarmed and it wasn't all

8 villages. So the last one was Hrustovo. If necessary, I can enumerate

9 the villages that we disarmed, the 6th Brigade. And the other villages

10 were probably disarmed by somebody who was not the 6th Brigade.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the end of

12 the sentence.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They acted --

14 THE INTERPRETER: And, again, we didn't hear the end of the

15 sentence.

16 MR. JEREMY:

17 Q. Could you repeat the -- the -- your last -- could you repeat the

18 last sentence of your last answer, please, Colonel.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other

20 microphones please be switched off.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never organised together with the

22 Territorial Defence. That is to say, if disarming took place in villages

23 and if the brigade was not involved, then it was the TO and the police

24 that did that. So I can enumerate the villages where the 6th Brigade

25 carried out the disarming.

Page 34472

1 MR. JEREMY: Could we have a look at one document in connection

2 with this, P2889.

3 Q. And, Colonel Basara, just very quickly before the break, what's

4 coming up on the screen before you is a -- it's a report on the process

5 of disarming military formations in the Sanski Most public security

6 station area, and it's dated the 15th of June, 1992.

7 MR. JEREMY: If we could go to the second page, please, in each

8 language.

9 Q. And we see it's signed by a Mirko Vrucinic. And if we can just

10 go back to the first page, I just want to focus your attention on the

11 first paragraph, and I should indicate this is a report that's being sent

12 to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the Ministry of Interior

13 Banja Luka Security Services Centre.

14 Colonel Basara, in the first paragraph we read that: "Serbian

15 army units of and commands (six brigades), Territorial Defence units and

16 the SJB have for some time been disarming paramilitary Muslim and

17 Croatian formations in the Sanski Most municipal area."

18 So, sir, it's very clear that Mirko Vrucinic considered the SJB,

19 the civilian police, to be co-operating with the 6th Brigade and with the

20 Territorial Defence in disarming operations in Sanski Most.

21 Is it your position that he is -- that he's incorrect in -- in

22 stating this?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

24 One second, Witness.

25 Mr. Lukic.

Page 34473

1 MR. LUKIC: Where do we can see co-operation? [Overlapping

2 speakers] ...

3 JUDGE ORIE: It's -- it's -- you misrepresented the evidence, the

4 document in your question to the witness. It says that army units and

5 commands, TO, and SJB have for sometime been disarming, paramilitary

6 Muslim and Croatian formations.

7 MR. JEREMY: Sorry, Your Honours. That's my mistake and I got

8 ahead of myself. I apologise to the Chamber and to the witness.

9 Q. But, Colonel Basara, let me read that sentence to you again. It

10 reads: "Serbian army units and commands (six brigades), TO Territorial

11 Defence units and the SJB have for some time been disarming paramilitary

12 Muslim and Croatian formations in the Sanski Most municipal area."

13 Now, my question for you is that this is clearly an indication of

14 co-operation between those different entities within the Sanski Most in

15 the disarming process; correct?

16 A. No, not the way you formulated it. Everybody did their own part

17 of work and then, at the end, it resulted in the implementation of

18 disarming. However, this does not indicate any co-operation. I've

19 already explained what that co-operation entailed, which was gathering

20 intelligence, gathering data. However, there was no other co-operation.

21 The brigade independently carried out the disarming process.

22 Q. So do I understand your position to be that it is true that the

23 6th Brigade was involved in disarming, the TO was involved in disarming,

24 and the civilian police were involved in disarming, but they were doing

25 this individually and they weren't co-operating and the only way that

Page 34474

1 they did co-operate was to share information. That's your position; yes?

2 A. Yes. That was the position.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, before we would take a break, I have one

4 question.

5 How was it avoided that suddenly TO, SJB and one of the brigades

6 would appear at the same village in order to disarm it? And how was

7 it --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know in what village.

9 JUDGE ORIE: What I'm -- what I'm suggesting to you is there may

10 have been some co-ordination, TO goes here, SJB goes there, a brigade

11 goes there, so as to have all the villages disarmed in such a way that no

12 one was left out and that everyone that did - although individually and

13 in its own responsibility - did the disarming in the villages they were

14 engaged in.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not familiar with their plan in

16 terms of the security services and Territorial Defence. I was not

17 informed by anyone about their activities. I only know what I planned

18 and which villages I disarmed. The last one was Hrustovo. So Mahala and

19 Hrustovo. The other villages adjacent to Sanski Most are the villages I

20 did not disarm. They had already been disarmed by the TO and security

21 services.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So you knew that they had been disarmed by the TO

23 and the security service?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I received such

25 information that they had carried out disarming, but they never informed

Page 34475

1 me about what they were doing. My security organs forwarded information

2 to me to the effect that some villages had been disarmed by them.

3 JUDGE ORIE: So it was a lucky coincidence that did you not

4 appear at the same village early in the morning, TO, SJB, and the army in

5 order to disarm that village. It was coincidence, or was there any

6 co-ordination as to, You go there on Monday?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. As regards Mahala, the

8 information we had was that the Muslims there were organised and that it

9 could only be carried out by the 6th Brigade. There was expectation of

10 encountering resistance, as was the case in the end. The same goes for

11 Hrustovo. As for the other villages close to Sanski Most, we did not

12 have such information and thus the 6th Brigade was not involved. Once

13 the brigades was finished with its activities there may have been others

14 coming to that village to carry out checks, but I'm not aware of that.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And is this the kind of intelligence information you

16 shared which made it possible that the needs for disarming were such that

17 it would be either your brigade or the TO or the SJB that effectively

18 could carry out such disarming?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I received my orders from the

20 corps command, as the commander in charge, I assessed the situation in

21 the territory based on the information I had received, and I assessed

22 which villages were supposed to be disarmed by our forces. All villages

23 between Lusci Palanka and Sanski Most were the villages we controlled,

24 and there were no armed conflicts in any of them. They co-operated,

25 thanks to me touring those villages and taking measures.

Page 34476

1 As for the other villages close to Sanski Most, as I said --

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm

3 interrupting you. You go far beyond what I asked you.

4 It was time for a break already ten minutes go. Apologies for

5 that. We take a break. We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

6 We resume at 11.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, I'll first verify whether the videolink

10 is functioning well.

11 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honours. We can see and

12 hear you clearly.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. The same is true for this side.

14 Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.

15 MR. JEREMY:

16 Q. I would like to stay with this same issue of co-operation with

17 the TO and the police in Sanski Most, and actually, I'll focus on your

18 co-operation with Anicic within the TO. Could we please see D00079.

19 And, Colonel Basara, I'll tell you as it is coming up, these are

20 conclusions of a Crisis Staff meeting from the 22nd of May. The

21 conclusions are dated the 22nd of May and the meeting itself was on the

22 21st of May, 1992.

23 So we see there the heading, "Crisis Staff of the Serbian

24 Municipality of Sanski Most," we see the date the 22nd of May, and we see

25 the heading, "Conclusions" and then there's two conclusions below there.

Page 34477

1 If we could go to page 2 in the English, please, and page 3 in the B/C/S.

2 Now, Colonel, I'd like to focus your attention on paragraph 4

3 where we read as follows: "As far as disarming paramilitary formations

4 in Sanski Most is concerned, Colonel Basara and Colonel Anicic are

5 charged with putting this into practice."

6 So, Colonel Basara, in the process of putting these disarming

7 operations into practice, you co-operated with Colonel Anicic who was

8 then the head of the TO; correct?

9 A. I am not even aware of the fact that Colonel Anicic was the TO

10 commander. This does not indicate in any way that the two of us

11 co-operated in -- on this matter. It is stated that Colonel Basara and

12 Colonel Anicic are in charge, meaning that Basara was responsible for his

13 share of work and Anicic was probably responsible for some tasks given to

14 him by the municipal organs.

15 Q. And do you recall sitting in meetings with Colonel Anicic with

16 Mirko Vrucinic during this period, planning disarming operations in

17 Sanski Most?

18 A. I do not. I did attend the meetings and most of them were also

19 attended by Colonel Anicic who kept the minutes and attendance. I

20 thought he a recording clerk in the municipality, as Vrucinic used to be.

21 In other words, I do not remember us discussing it anywhere.

22 Q. If I understand your answer correctly, you do recall being in

23 meetings with Colonel Anicic but your understanding was this former JNA

24 colonel was basically there to take the minutes of the meetings. Is

25 that -- is that correct?

Page 34478

1 A. That was my understanding of his role.

2 Q. So did he talk in these meetings or he was only there in a silent

3 capacity, taking notes?

4 A. As far as I remember, he was silent most of the time. Sometimes

5 he would nod when Rasula spoke. As I said, my understanding was that he

6 did not play any major role. That he was there as a kind of recording

7 clerk.

8 Q. Okay, that's clear. Let's take a look at one of those -- the

9 minutes of one of those meetings to see if they shed some light on this.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we remove this document, can we see the

11 previous page, please.

12 I -- okay. I was just looking at this subparagraph (d) and

13 wanted to find out from the witness, if you can, Witness, it is said that

14 here that: "The commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade, Colonel Basara,

15 and the commander of the Serbian Territorial Defence, Colonel Anicic, are

16 hereby instructed to protect vital facilities in the town, above all the

17 water supply system, the transformer station, the silo, et cetera."

18 Did you two at least co-operate with each other with respect to

19 this task?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not co-operate on this. I

21 was not in charge of securing those facilities.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... [Overlapping

23 speakers] ...

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I add something?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 34479

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As regards these conclusions --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's wait for the next question, Witness. If

3 at the very end there is something you would like to add, you will have

4 an opportunity do so.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm done,

7 Mr. Jeremy.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy.

9 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

10 Q. And as a follow-up to His Honour Moloto's question, I'd like to

11 take a look at the diary of Nedjeljko Rasula, which we were just looking

12 at, and if we go to page 51 in the English and 36 in the B/C/S.

13 MR. LUKIC: Still, we'll need the number.

14 MR. JEREMY: Sorry, forgive me. P3294.

15 Q. And, Colonel Basara, what will be coming up are actually the

16 minutes of the meeting on 21st of May, 1992 that the conclusions that we

17 just looked at refer to.

18 MR. JEREMY: If we could go, please, to page 51 in the English

19 and page 36 in the B/C/S.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Is there minutes of note about the meeting?

21 MR. JEREMY: They're the minutes of the meeting and the document

22 we just looked at contains the conclusions from the meeting that we're

23 now going to look at.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I'm a bit confused. Earlier you announced that we

25 would look at some of the meetings; that's what we are doing now?

Page 34480

1 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you are talking about minutes. I consider

3 usually minutes to be more or less verbatim reports which this seems not

4 to be.

5 MR. JEREMY: Yes. So -- notes on the meeting and then notes

6 recorded in Nedjeljko Rasula's diary.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

8 MR. JEREMY: Now, if we can go to page 36 in the B/C/S, please.

9 Q. And focussing attention on the right-hand side of the page, we

10 see a Crisis Staff meeting dated 21st of May, 1992. We see a reference

11 to Colonel Basara. We see that you're talking about issues relating to

12 the TO Staff, that the TO has been -- number 2: "The TO Defence has been

13 given the status of an army under a single command."

14 If we can go to the next page in each language, please.

15 Focussing on the left side, there we see a reference under item 2

16 to Colonel Anicic, he is talking about work organisation and switching to

17 war-time production. Then we see this reference to securing vital

18 facilities, water reservoirs, Velprom. Security plans to be drawn up by

19 Colonels Basara and Anicic.

20 So, Colonel Basara, looking at the minutes of this meeting you

21 attended, does that help to refresh your recollection about your

22 discussions to secure these facilities, facilities that we saw referred

23 to in the conclusions of the Crisis Staff dated the next day?

24 A. I was not involved in any way in the creation of these

25 conclusions. I'm not familiar with them whatsoever. At the bottom, just

Page 34481

1 beneath the conclusions, it doesn't say who those conclusions were

2 supposed to be forwarded to. They were supposed to be sent to those who

3 were expected to implement them.

4 Q. Sir, perhaps I've confused you. What we're looking at now is the

5 record of the meeting as written by Nedjeljko Rasula and he's

6 recording -- the assumption is that he is recording what was said at that

7 meeting and one of the things that was said at that meeting was that you,

8 Colonel Basara, and Anicic would secure certain vital facilities and we

9 see reference to water reservoirs and Velprom. Does that refresh your

10 recollection about your discussion --

11 A. There's nothing for me to recollect. I did not devise any plan

12 with Anicic, so I don't know whether this reflects some idea of his that

13 he noted down. I have no clue.

14 Q. All right, let's look at item 3 where we see a reference to

15 Mirko Vrucinic, the police commander. "Colonel Basara and Mirko to

16 negotiate disarmament arrangements with Sabic, first in Kamengrad and

17 then in town."

18 So this suggests that you are co-ordinating with Mirko Vrucinic

19 in the course of disarmament arrangements in Sanski Most, does it not?

20 A. That is not correct. It does not confirm I was involved in it

21 because I did not accept orders or suggestions from the Crisis Staff or

22 municipal bodies. It was their wish, but I did not implement it together

23 with them.

24 Q. Okay. But -- before we leave this diary, let's take look at one

25 more entry along a similar line --

Page 34482

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps if we stay with this page at the moment.

2 Some lines down, Mr. Basara, I read your name again, and I quote:

3 "Colonel Basara: Do not confiscate weapons for which they own a licence

4 but carry out inspections and issue new licences."

5 Do you remember this meeting where you urged the people not to

6 confiscate weapons for which the people have their own licence?

7 MR. JEREMY: And I think you might need to scroll to the right in

8 the B/C/S.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please. Let's move to the right side of the

10 B/C/S page.

11 Can you see that, what I read to you? I think it's on top of

12 that page.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the initial variant when a

14 deadline was issued for the hand-over of weapons. So the weapons were

15 not seized but it was suggested that they be called upon to hand over

16 their weapons. What we had in mind was military, were military weapons,

17 automatic rifles and so on.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that. Can I take it from your

19 answer that you remember having been at this meeting where Mr. Rasula has

20 taken these notes from?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rasula kept the notes. I don't

22 remember this specifically. I only know what I proposed, and based on

23 what I have just read, I realised that it was my suggestion, that it be

24 handled this way during disarming. I don't know, though, when exactly it

25 took place.

Page 34483

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But you confirm that Mr. Rasula quoted you

2 correctly when he noted down your words; yes?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Overall, it does reflect the gist

4 of it, but I don't know whether he recorded it precisely as I put it. I

5 was just speaking and he put it down in shorthand, so to speak, because

6 if I remember, my address was longer than this.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

8 Mr. Jeremy.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I also have one or two questions to you, Witness.

10 A few lines further down, Mr. Rasula's diary records that

11 Colonel Anicic is talking. Do you see that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please read it for yourself - not aloud

14 but just for yourself - and tell me when you've read that portion. It's

15 in the middle of your page in B/C/S.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, do you remember that Colonel Anicic

18 addressed these issues?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Would you agree with me that what is recorded here

21 by Mr. Rasula doesn't give the impression that Mr. Anicic is there as a

22 note-taker, but that he's, rather, participating in the discussions at

23 the meeting fully. Do you agree with that, or do you disagree?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I disagree because Rasula could

25 have written this on the basis of his conversation in the office and then

Page 34484

1 he proposed it to him as he was noting it down. Hence, I don't remember

2 it, and I can't confirm it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you would expect Mr. Rasula to include in

4 his notes from meetings just private conversations he would have outside

5 that meeting and then not clearly indicate that? Is that how I have to

6 understand your testimony?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think you should understand

8 it that way. I think he wrote down what he thought was necessary. So in

9 all likelihood, he just wrote it. That's all I can explain.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

11 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Q. So we'll shortly move away from this diary, but I'd like to look

13 at one final entry on page 56 in the English, please, and page 40 in the

14 B/C/S.

15 Now, Colonel Basara, on the screen before you and if we can look

16 at the left side in the B/C/S, is another entry in Rasula's diary of a --

17 another Crisis Staff meeting. It's dated 24th May 1992. We see item 2,

18 we see a briefing given by Mirko Vrucinic. He's referring to increasing

19 security at various locations. Point (c), control of the silo - "how we

20 can capture it.

21 "Colonel Basara will secure the silo."

22 Then we look at item 3, reference to: "The operation being

23 successful so far only in the case of weapons belonging to the TO and the

24 republican police, while nothing has been done about weapons from illegal

25 sources."

Page 34485

1 We see a reference to, Colonel Basara proposed a strike at the

2 strongest points [sic].

3 We see Colonel Anicic suggested various locations.

4 If we go to the next page in the English, please. And we see a

5 reference to: "Could Colonel Basara will prepare an operation against

6 Demisevci, evening. The proposal was not accepted. It was decided that

7 it should take place on Tuesday ..."

8 Colonel Basara, this is a clear indication of discussions and

9 co-ordination between Mirko Vrucinic, between Colonel Anicic, and

10 yourself in preparation for what were then ongoing disarming operations

11 in Sanski Most, correct, these aren't notes by Colonel Rasula of private

12 conversations that he had outside of this meeting?

13 A. I did not have any private conversations in mind. As they say,

14 he was simply doing something of his own accord, noting down what he

15 wanted to. This does not indicate that the brigade was engaged

16 whatsoever. If there were any proposals to that effect, in all

17 likelihood I never accepted them. I have no knowledge about this. I

18 just know that we were not engaged in the operation concerning Demisevci

19 in any way.

20 Q. Do you doubt that you were at this meeting, having these

21 discussions with Colonel Anicic and Mirko Vrucinic?

22 A. I don't recall discussing an attack on Demisevci in any way. We

23 probably did speak at some other meetings, but not about Demisevci.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And could the witness tell us what he meant when he

25 said "we"? Who discussed?

Page 34486

1 Witness, could you answer that question?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said "we," some names were

3 mentioned, and that's what I had in mind. I said that we could have

4 discussed some other issues at some other locations or on a different

5 day. But as regards Demisevci, I know I did not discuss --

6 JUDGE ORIE: I just asked who "we" are. You gave a bit of a

7 vague answer. Some names were mentioned. Do you mean Anicic, Vrucinic,

8 Rasula included as well?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when I said that I did have

10 the names in mind. They were referred to, and I said "we."

11 "We" may have discussed it but I don't remember when or what

12 about.

13 JUDGE ORIE: But when you say "we," you refer to then, that is

14 Anicic and Vrucinic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. I had the two in mind.

16 Because there was a reference about us discussing something. However, I

17 do not remember us discussing this problem mentioned now.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Anicic being the note-taker with whom you

19 discussed these kind of matters. Is that properly understood?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not discuss it with him.

21 Please do not turn things around. I said --

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... well, I asked

23 you who you meant when you were talking about "we" and you confirmed that

24 at least Anicic and Vrucinic were among those you had on your mind. I'm

25 not twisting your words. I'm inviting Mr. Jeremy to put his next

Page 34487

1 question to you.

2 No, please wait for the next question.

3 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Q. And I'll actually move to a different document which is related

5 to this entry.

6 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 31873, and that's the war

7 diary that we looked at at the start of the day.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's P7321, MFI.

9 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 And could we please go to page 19 in the English and 14 in the

11 B/C/S. And if we can focus on the left-hand side of the page in the

12 B/C/S to begin with, please.

13 Q. So, Colonel Basara, this is an entry in this notebook that we

14 were looking at earlier. It's dated 25th of May, 1992 which is the same

15 date as the entry in Rasula's diary that we looked at a moment ago. We

16 see a number of items. First item --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the

18 witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you apparently interrupted Mr. Jeremy.

20 Your words were not heard. If there's anything to be said, wait until he

21 has finished his question and then answer it.

22 MR. JEREMY:

23 Q. So, Colonel Basara, I just want to take you to a few items that

24 we see listed on the 25th of May, 1992. We see a reference to

25 confiscation of weapons by force, "take weapons during the night (early

Page 34488

1 in the morning). Number 1: "Bring out all weapons within one hour (all,

2 both legal and illegal)."

3 We see number 2:

4 "Let them evacuate women and children (if they do not hand over

5 the weapons)."

6 Now, at point 8 we see the order and we see reference to: "Start

7 with Skucani Vakuf and then go on (Gorice, Naprelje, Okrec)."

8 If we could go to the next page, please, or scroll over to the

9 right in the B/C/S. Now we see what looks like planning for the

10 operation. "Tomorrow, day one completion up to and including, Suhaca.

11 Day 2, we push on to Demisevci."

12 Skipping down, we see Mahala is to be blocked. We see reference

13 to further Mahala, Kruhari, Trnova, Sehovci, Poljak. I see a reference

14 to Vrhpolje and Hrustovo. And below that we see a reference to "Be ready

15 at 0600, and open fire at Demisevci.

16 Now, Colonel, this reflects planning for the disarming operations

17 that the 6th Brigade were involved in in Sanski Most; correct?

18 A. No.

19 Q. In your view, then, what do these entries reflect if not planning

20 for operations against the locations listed here, including Demisevci

21 which we see -- saw a reference to in Rasula's diary?

22 A. I just know that what is mentioned up here, Okrec and the other

23 villages, those villages were checked by the 6th Brigade, that is to say

24 all of them, Fajtovci, Okreci, Skucani Vakuf, Kamengrad and so on. All

25 of that was dealt with by the 6th Brigade on their own. No one was

Page 34489

1 arrested. No force was applied. No violence, nothing. Mahala also the

2 6th Brigade. As for this plan that you are presenting to me, it is

3 totally unknown to me, I don't know who made that plan, and that -- on

4 the basis of that somebody acted.

5 Q. And you say on the basis of that, someone acted. So we see this

6 reference to Mahala, the plan for the -- this entry is dated the 25th.

7 Now it's correct, isn't it, that your forces and you personally acted

8 against Mahala on the 26th of May, 1992. You were involved in a military

9 operation there?

10 A. You can call it whatever you want, military operation. But we

11 actually set out to check things and to take weapons away. Fire was

12 opened and afterwards, the soldiers continued, that is to say, launched

13 an attack and Mahala was taken. However.

14 Q. Sir --

15 A. -- three hours were given to get all of those out who --

16 Q. [Previous translation continues]... shortly. I have one final

17 question on this entry. We see a couple of references to Demisevci.

18 Now, we saw a reference to that location in Rasula's diary entry, which

19 was the same date, and you say you don't recall discussing the location

20 of Demisevci.

21 Seeing it referred to here in the diary of a member of your

22 brigade, does that refresh your recollection that you did indeed have

23 discussions about that location with Rasula, Anicic, and Vrucinic?

24 A. Please prove that to me, that that is a member of my brigade who

25 made this plan.

Page 34490

1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the simple question was whether this

2 refreshes your recollection. And apparently it does not. Is that how I

3 have to understand your answer?

4 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

5 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already said no.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Lukic.

8 MR. LUKIC: In the question we have, "in the diary of a member of

9 your brigade." Where we can find that, please. Finally, for the tenth

10 time.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, do you want to say something more about

12 the document so as to give support to the Prosecution's position in

13 relation to this document?

14 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour. Firstly, that the Prosecution is

15 entitled to put the witness their position in respect to this diary. And

16 I've put to the witness that's it's our position that it belongs to a

17 member of his brigade. In terms of the content of the diary, while we

18 are not clear who the original author of the diary is, it is clearly a

19 contemporaneous record of events that occurred in Sanski Most and as

20 we've just seen from the previous exhibit that we were looking at, it's

21 corroborated by other evidence in this case including that exhibit and a

22 number of other exhibits.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know where it was found?

24 MR. JEREMY: It was handed over to -- it was -- it was located by

25 AID in Bosnia, I understand after the war and handed over to the -- to

Page 34491

1 the Tribunal.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I take it if you have not located it you

3 can't hand it over. That's pretty clear but my question was do you know

4 where it was found, prior to it being given to OTP.

5 MR. JEREMY: My understanding it was found in an empty house

6 in -- in Bosnia in Sanski Most.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic has drawn your attention to the

9 question or to your supposition that you said, "in the diary of a member

10 of your brigade." What is the basis of this assumption that it was

11 written by a member of the brigade of Mr. Basara?

12 MR. JEREMY: So, the basis of that assumption is the entries

13 reflect planning of operations that evidence in this case suggests that

14 the brigade was involved in, for example, the attack on Mahala that we

15 saw referenced in Rasula's diary that we see referenced in this diary and

16 that we know occurred on the 26th of May 1992. The entries are also

17 corroborated by another diary, the diary of Dragan Karic, P7070, and the

18 very close corroboration between, for example, the entry on the 14th of

19 May in this diary and the entry on the 14th of May in Dragan Karic's

20 diary, that's page 4 of P7070.

21 So, our position is even though the author of this diary is not

22 clear, that is ultimately an issue of weight to be afforded to the diary.

23 But there is no doubt it is an authentic contemporaneous account of

24 events as occurring in Sanski Most.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is the Prosecution of the Prosecution that the

Page 34492

1 author was a member of the brigade?

2 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honours. The basis for what is the

3 reference to the various military operations that are recounted

4 throughout the diary. Military operations that the 6th Brigade were

5 involved in within Sanski Most.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

7 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, quite the opposite --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

9 MR. LUKIC: -- Mr. Basara explained that they did not take part

10 in those operations.

11 Secondly, where is the proof that this is -- that this diary is

12 made at the time? We just heard now that it was received from AID. AID

13 was not only accused of forgeries but also of terrorism.

14 So, please, and my learned friend should inform the witness that

15 this was their position, that it was made by a member of his brigade, not

16 to ask the witness this -- this was made by the member of your brigade.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I think I --

18 MR. LUKIC: We object to introduction of any document received

19 from AID.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Well --

21 MR. LUKIC: We saw it from Trnovo, the forgeries made by them.

22 So ...

23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on at this moment. It may take quite a

24 bit of analysis before the Chamber could decide whether or not this

25 document has probative value or not.

Page 34493

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll deal with that in due course.

3 Meanwhile, Mr. Jeremy, would you be very cautious in making a

4 clear distinction between what stands for a fact and what is an inference

5 drawn by the examiner.

6 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

8 MR. JEREMY:

9 Q. Colonel Basara, can you think of who else other than someone in

10 your brigade would be writing down detail about operations that your

11 brigade were involved in, in preparation for disarming, on operations in

12 Sanski Most. And, in particular, why someone on the 25th of May would be

13 referring to attacks against Mahala, attacks against Vrhpolje and

14 Hrustovo that we know transpired a few days later?

15 MR. LUKIC: Objection.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: Where is the proof that this was written on 25th of

18 May, not after the war?

19 JUDGE ORIE: That's not an objection. But I invited Mr. Jeremy

20 to clearly state what your position is and that is, here, that the

21 Prosecution assumes that this was written at that time.

22 And you're asking whether the witness would have any idea as to

23 who else could have written such details about the operations which were

24 conducted at the time as indicated in this document? That's what you

25 wanted to ask the witness --

Page 34494

1 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: And, then, Witness, I don't know whether you wanted

3 to hear the question again. It will then be --

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you answer the question, Witness?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document that was written up

7 here, it could have been written up by anybody from the Crisis Staff or

8 the municipality or the Territorial Defence. As for what is said here

9 that the 6th Brigade took part in the action vis-à-vis Mahala, that was

10 my personal plan, and it has nothing whatsoever to do anything with this.

11 So the brigade independently planned disarming. All the villages along

12 the road Lusci Palanka, Sanski Most. I assume that the Prosecutor knows

13 that. Mahala and Hrustovo too. All the other villages, the brigade did

14 not plan that at all and the brigade did not take part in that.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

16 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Q. Let's stay with the subject of Mahala, Colonel Basara. Now

18 Mahala was a -- a Muslim area of Sanski Most; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And on the 26th of May, 1992, residents there were given a

21 three-hour warning to evacuate, after which units from your brigade

22 shelled Mahala. That's correct, isn't it?

23 A. It's not that way. What was said was that all of those who don't

24 want to fight should get out of Mahala. That is to say, only those who

25 wished to put up resistance and fight are to stay in Mahala. That is the

Page 34495

1 truth. As for the rest that you phrased within your question, that is

2 not correct.

3 Q. So those who did not wish to fight were given a three-hour

4 warning to evacuate Mahala after which it was shelled. That's your

5 answer; yes?

6 A. Not shelled. When the soldiers went to Mahala, a few shells from

7 a mortar fell within the line. Later on, we found that 60-millimetre

8 mortar in Mahala. And so they opened that mortar and that's when fire

9 was opened at Mahala.

10 Q. So units from your brigade did, indeed, shell Mahala. That's

11 correct, isn't it?

12 A. I've said to you just now --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The sound is no longer

14 good enough for interpretation.

15 JUDGE ORIE: One second. One second. We do understand that the

16 quality of the audio is not good at this moment. I think the experience

17 of the last few days was that this sometimes changes very quickly again.

18 So I filled 20 seconds. Let's give it another try and see whether the

19 quality is now better.

20 Could you again put your question to the witness, Mr. Jeremy.

21 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour.

22 Q. So, Colonel Basara, my understanding is that your position is

23 that units from your brigade did shell Mahala; yes?

24 A. I said to you how it was that the shelling took place. You

25 cannot take things out of context, just saying yes or no.

Page 34496

1 So, first, three hours were given for all of those do not want to

2 fight to get out, to leave.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm interrupting you. You've explained

4 that to us. And Mr. Jeremy finally then sought confirmation that your

5 units, perhaps with the whole history as you explained it to us, finally

6 fired shells at Mahala.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fighting took place, and during

8 combat, both were firing. So it wasn't just random shelling of a

9 peaceful settlement. Rather, combat activities were taking place.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Including firing shells.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, firing projectiles, it is

12 only natural in armed combat, on both sides.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

14 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Q. And, Colonel Basara, you know that civilians in Mahala died as a

16 consequence of this military operation. You know that; yes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, I'd like to discuss the involvement of your Chief of Staff

19 in relation to Mahala. Your Chief of Staff was Major Veljko Brajic;

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, I didn't see a reference to this in your statement, but

23 you've previously admitted that you -- you know that your Chief of Staff

24 ordered the destruction of a mosque in Mahala. That's correct, isn't it?

25 A. I had my doubts. I did not claim anything. I had my doubts. I

Page 34497

1 thought that he couldn't have done that, but later on I found it was the

2 commander of the SOS, Njunja, that destroyed that. I mean, he didn't

3 need to take orders. He just did what he did.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. No one asked you at this

5 moment what happened. What Mr. Jeremy asked you is whether you had

6 previously admitted that you knew that your Chief of Staff ordered the

7 destruction of a mosque. Did you say that in -- previously?

8 A. I said that I had my doubts, that I doubt that he could have --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Is that what you say today, or is what you said

10 previously? Because that is what the question was about.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had my doubts. Now I don't know

12 exactly what that was I said at some point before, but ...

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... then we'll ask

14 Mr. Jeremy to move on and he may have recordings of it.

15 Please proceed.

16 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Q. And just another question on this. You previously said that not

18 only did Veljko Brajic order the destruction of the mosque in Mahala but

19 that he actually destroyed the mosque in Mahala, the mosque was destroyed

20 pursuant to his order. That's what you've previously said; yes?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. Let's take a look at your interview in 2002, your

23 interview with the Office of the Prosecutor. After than we'll take a

24 look at your testimony in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case.

25 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 27968. And if we can go

Page 34498

1 to page 107 in the English and we have a B/C/S translation at page 133.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Mr. Jeremy, I'd like to come back

3 just for a second to an issue that arose earlier today, that is, whether

4 the witness said that "we carried out certain actions together," CLSS,

5 that is the Conference and Language Services Section, has verified on the

6 basis of the audio and reports that what the witness said is "we did not

7 carry it out -- carry out certain actions together."

8 Thank you, Mr. Lukic, for drawing our attention to this issue.

9 It has been verified. Witness, you may remember the dispute on

10 what you said before it has been verified and you said indeed you did not

11 carry out actions together.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. So, Colonel Basara, I'd like you to focus on the screen on the

15 left -- on the document on the left side and we see the -- we see that

16 you are asked about the destruction of a -- we see that you are asked --

17 I'm just finding the reference in the B/C/S.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It can't be the right page.

19 MR. JEREMY: Yeah, I think we need to go to the next page,

20 please.

21 Q. So halfway down the page, and it's at line 12 in -- in the B/C/S,

22 we read that you state:

23 "I know of a mosque in Sanski Most. The Chief of Staff ordered

24 it the Chief of Staff Brajic Nedjeljko ordered that mosque to be

25 destroyed when he was the chief of the engineers."

Page 34499

1 "Q. Your Chief of Staff?

2 "Branko Basara: Yes. At the time that the attack on Mahala

3 happened.

4 "Q. He ordered the destruction of the mosque.

5 "A. He ordered that the mosque be demolished."

6 So, Colonel Basara, does this refresh your recollection that in

7 2002 you did, indeed, tell -- you did, indeed, state that your Chief of

8 Staff destroyed the mosque in Mahala.

9 A. He did not destroy that mosque. Later on, I found out that he

10 had ordered the chief of engineers to do that. However, in the meantime

11 Njunja did that, the commander of the SOS. So his order was not carried

12 out.

13 Q. And you say that later on you found out that Njunja was

14 responsible, so this was after you gave this answer in 2002; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Later on, I found out, yes.

17 Q. Yes. Later on you found out. When -- when was that? Was after

18 this interview in 2002?

19 A. Well, yes, people come from those parts. I can't remember who it

20 was that I talked to exactly. And one man said that he knows with 100

21 per cent certainty that Njunja destroyed that mosque and he was the only

22 one who was in the area of Sanski Most who could handle explosives

23 properly.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the end.

25 MR. JEREMY:

Page 34500

1 Q. Sir, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I have limited time. My

2 question is: When did you find this out? When were you told that Njunja

3 destroyed this mosque?

4 A. Sometime later, after I had conversations and provided

5 statements. Then I met some people from the area of Sanski Most and we

6 talked about it all. Then one of them told me that he was positive that

7 it was done by Njunja and that the chief of engineers should not be

8 charged with that because he didn't do it.

9 Q. Sir, did you -- let me try and get a time-frame for this. Did

10 you find out this information before 2009?

11 A. Well, I really can't say what year it was when I learnt that. No

12 idea. I just know that I had those conversations, that I was in contact

13 with the people coming in, and we started remembering things. That is

14 how I remember one of them told me that it was Njunja. That whenever

15 explosives were used and mosques were involved, it was his work.

16 Q. Now, I'd like to just quickly to go to what you said during your

17 testimony in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case in 2009 and --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we do that --

19 Could the witness tell us who it was that told you that Njunja

20 did it? Witness.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, how could I remember? I spoke

22 to so many people. I can't remember who told me that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... thank you.

24 You've answered my question, Witness.

25 Mr. Jeremy.

Page 34501

1 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours. And I will ask for this --

2 this page to be -- this page of this interview to be tendered. I'm happy

3 to come back to these pages [Overlapping speakers] ...

4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll reserve a number for it but this page then

5 should be uploaded separately.

6 Madam Registrar, the number would be reserved for an excerpt from

7 the interview with Mr. Basara would receive.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, number would be P7322.

9 JUDGE ORIE: That number is reserved.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to 65 ter 31876. I'd like to go

12 to page 77. And this is the testimony of Branko Basara in the Stanisic

13 and Zupljanin case.

14 Q. Now, Colonel Basara, there isn't a translation of this so you'll

15 need to listen to my words carefully, but I'm going to read you the

16 questions and answers that you provided during your testimony in the

17 Stanisic and Zupljanin case.

18 MR. JEREMY: Could we scroll down a little bit, please.

19 Q. Now, focussing on line 18, we read as follows:

20 "Q. Sorry, do you mean that you did make the request to

21 General Talic, that Major Brajic who had confessed to blowing up a mosque

22 should be removed? And I mean in June not in December" --

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You shouldn't read too fast.

24 MR. JEREMY:

25 Q. "I didn't only refer to the mosque issue, but also his work and

Page 34502

1 his conduct as my first assistant, and I had insisted a few times in

2 conversations with the General Talic that he be removed from the brigade.

3 "Q. Right. Did you say to General Talic who also incidentally

4 issued an order, didn't he, that mosques should not be destroyed or other

5 religious documents, did you explain to General Talic that he had

6 confessed to blowing up a mosque and, therefore, should be dismissed?

7 "A. I conveyed this to General Talic, and most probably in the

8 end he did accept my request to remove him from the brigade because I was

9 afraid if he did stay in the brigade."

10 So, Colonel Basara, it's clear that when you testified in the

11 Stanisic and Zupljanin case on the 13th of October, 2009, it was clear in

12 your mind that Major Brajic was indeed responsible for the destruction of

13 this mosque; yes.

14 A. Looking at the text and following those statements, I am quite

15 surprised to see it there. I know why I went to see General Talic,

16 asking him that Brajic and I leave the brigade together, that we both

17 leave. It was because Brajic tried to split up the brigades between his

18 and my men.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

20 A. He wanted to take over control of the brigades at any cost.

21 Q. Sir my simple question to you is the follows [sic]: It's clear

22 that when you testified in Stanisic and Zupljanin case on the 13th of

23 October, 2009 it was clear in your mind that Major Brajic was responsible

24 for the destruction of this mosque. That's correct, isn't it?

25 A. As I said, concerning the mosque, I was unable to establish

Page 34503

1 anything but I did receive some information that Njunja did it. Because

2 Brajic did not --

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, I stop

4 you again. You apparently consider it important to give us your thoughts

5 of today. You've given them already. Mr. Jeremy asked you whether, when

6 you testified in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case, whether you testified

7 as he read it to you and which clearly expresses your conviction at that

8 time, that Major Brajic was responsible for the destruction of the

9 mosques.

10 Is that what you said at the time?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was not my conviction. I was

12 only wondering or I was in doubt if it was he who could have issued the

13 orders.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not what is expressed or what is

15 recorded as would -- what you said at the time. Would you agree with

16 that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would. But I had no proof. And

18 I couldn't assert anything.

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was only doubting. I was

21 suspicious that it was he who could have done it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness you presented it as a fact and you even said

23 that he confessed to it, isn't it? That's a fact and not just

24 conclusions.

25 Is that what you said?

Page 34504

1 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, that he confessed is in the question.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see anywhere that I ...

3 JUDGE ORIE: I think I read it, but ...

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I understand that if you ask someone whether

6 you explained to General Talic that he had confessed, that if you say, "I

7 conveyed this to General Talic," that -- but let's not, at this moment,

8 argue about that.

9 Did you say at the time what is recorded you to have said?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About what?

11 JUDGE ORIE: About that you said at that time that the colonel

12 was responsible, Brajic was responsible. Is that what you said at the

13 time and not that you had doubts as whether he was but you just presented

14 that for a fact. That's what we read. You agree?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I agree that he was

16 responsible because he was in direct command of those activities. I

17 tried to --

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... for one reason

19 or another, you are evading to answer my questions. I just simply asked

20 you whether that is what you had said.

21 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I again have to -- and I will maybe ask

22 Colonel to remove his headphones.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please remove your headphones, Mr. Basara.

24 MR. LUKIC: In B/C/S, when somebody says "sumnjao sam" can be

25 translated "I had doubts" and can be translated "I suspected." And I

Page 34505

1 asked translators to verify that, if possible.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that can be --

3 MR. LUKIC: How I understood, Colonel Basara is telling us he

4 suspected not that he had doubts.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, whether the one is true or the other, what is

6 recorded at this statement that he presents for facts and the question

7 whether he had doubts or whether it was just suspicions.

8 MR. LUKIC: When he had said today that he had doubts.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing we're doing at this moment and it

10 takes us a while to establish whether the witness said in Stanisic and

11 Zupljanin what he is recorded to have said.

12 MR. LUKIC: Why I --

13 JUDGE ORIE: And at that time from what we read in the

14 transcript, but it always can be verified if there are serious doubts, we

15 read that he presented that for a fact, and whether today he says it was

16 just a suspicion or I had doubts or whatever, the issue at stake is that

17 he was -- what he presented as a fact in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case is

18 now presented as an uncertainty, and I leave it apart whether that is

19 suspicion or doubt or whatever.

20 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, why I intervened that doubt is in your

21 question as well so it might be confusing a bit [Overlapping

22 speakers] ...

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

24 MR. LUKIC: Line -- page 56, line 18 so --

25 JUDGE ORIE: One of the problems is, Mr. Lukic, and you certainly

Page 34506

1 are aware of that whatever question you ask the witness he has apparently

2 difficulties in answering that question rather -- but let me see.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I should have said, not that it was just a

5 suspicion or that you had doubts.

6 If the two meanings are there -- but again the core issue is

7 whether the witness said so. Now I don't intend to spend more time with

8 the witness on that. As to whether there's any doubt he said that, we'll

9 have to check the Stanisic and Zupljanin.

10 MR. LUKIC: He admitted that he said that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well -- well, you are optimistic and --

12 MR. LUKIC: Maybe you can check with him. Because he was talking

13 about burned mosque or destroyed mosque.

14 JUDGE ORIE: When I asked him whether he said that the Colonel

15 was responsible he said he was responsible but he didn't do it and --

16 well, let's -- Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: -- yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- let's continue with the evidence of the witness.

19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And take a break first.

21 Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes. We'd like to see you

22 back after this break.

23 We resume at 25 minutes to 1.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

Page 34507

1 JUDGE ORIE: If the videolink is functioning well, we can

2 continue, Mr. Jeremy.

3 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours. And staying on this topic

4 of Major Brajic and mosques, could we please go back to Colonel Basara's

5 interview in 2002, 65 ter 27986.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: P7322, reserved.

7 MR. JEREMY: Sorry, Your Honour. Mental block. Although there

8 may be -- that's the whole -- yeah, that's fine. Could we please go to

9 page 108 in the English and 138 in the B/C/S.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the B/C/S version has 137 pages in

11 total. Can counsel check?

12 JUDGE ORIE: In English, it's two pages from the end so that may

13 make it easier to find the corresponding B/C/S page.

14 MR. JEREMY: If we could back two pages in the B/C/S, please.

15 And back another page as well, please.

16 MR. LUKIC: The top of the page is at the bottom of the B/C/S

17 version: "What could I do?" It's BB from the bottom of the page, if

18 that's what you need.

19 MR. JEREMY: Yeah, I'd like to go from where we see the question:

20 "Can I ask you one question?"

21 MR. LUKIC: That's the last question on this page.

22 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

23 Q. Colonel Basara, focussing your attention on the bottom of the

24 page, at line 31 and looking at the English at line 6, we see you're

25 asked the following question: "Can I ask you one question? When the

Page 34508

1 Chief of Staff gave the orders for the destruction of the mosque in

2 Mahala, was it actually destroyed?"

3 Your answer: "Yes, it was demolished, and do you know how I came

4 to that conclusion? Because I was not on my command post and the

5 chief -- and the chief engineer wants to see me. And I used a bit of a

6 ruse and I just extended my hand and said: Thank you to you it was

7 really done brightly, and he just laughed and he said: We didn't need

8 much explosive. It just lied down. Because the Chief of Staff had

9 actually told me [sic] that those were my orders, that I had ordered" --

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Told him.

11 MR. JEREMY: Sorry. "Had told him that those were my orders,

12 that I had ordered it, and so he gave himself out and he admitted to

13 having done it. To which - and then I told him, you know: I, I, it

14 wasn't me, I didn't issue the order. You were, basically, you were

15 cheated. They cheated you. And, so you will be the one who will be held

16 responsible for this. And, so one day, if you're held responsible you go

17 and then you tell people at whose orders you actually did this."

18 Q. So, Colonel Basara, here you are relaying how you -- you tricked

19 your chief engineer into admitting to you that he destroyed the mosque in

20 Mahala upon the orders of Major Brajic; correct?

21 A. That is the impression you get from reading it. But later on

22 when I learned what I learnt, as I said, I realised it couldn't have been

23 him. He may have been present though because later on he refused to

24 admit it.

25 So as it probably turned out he was there, present but Njunja was

Page 34509

1 the man in charge who set the explosives. The other guy was not as

2 competent to do so.

3 Q. But, sir, you would agree that in 2002, there was no doubt in

4 your mind about who -- who was in charge and who was responsible for the

5 demolition of this mosque in Mahala?

6 A. I didn't know at the time, and, as I said, I provided that

7 particular answer to that question at the time. But later on, through

8 conversations and when I thought about it carefully, I concluded that the

9 chief of engineers did not have sufficient knowledge to destroy a mosque

10 in one go. Then I realised that it was done by Njunja.

11 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He may have been present only.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm interrupting you. Could you please

14 answer the questions and refrain from a lot of other comments because the

15 question still was whether in 2002, it was clear on your mind who was in

16 charge and who was responsible for the demolition of the mosque.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not 100 per cent.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you told, as you said in the beginning of

19 today -- of -- your testimony in this Court, that when you gave your

20 statement, including the one in 2002, that you had told the truth, isn't

21 it?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, I thought --

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 34510

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

3 MR. JEREMY:

4 Q. Colonel Basara, in paragraph 64 of your statement, you say the

5 following: "I do not know who destroyed the mosques in Sanski Most. The

6 perpetrators put stockings on their head."

7 Now, sir, now you're telling the Court that you -- that you

8 learnt that it was Njunja who destroyed this mosque in Mahala. So my

9 question to is why did you not make that clear in your statement and --

10 and why did you not make clear your previous suspicions about

11 Major Brajic?

12 A. I mean -- I don't understand this question very well. When the

13 mosque in Mahala was destroyed, there were no people with stockings on

14 their heads. It had to do with other mosques.

15 Q. Well, sir, you say in your statement, paragraph 64: "I do not

16 know who destroyed these mosques in Sanski Most. The perpetrators put

17 stockings on their head."

18 And I'm putting to that you do have an idea about who was

19 involved. You once thought it was a Major Brajic. You now seem to be

20 telling us that it was a man called Njunja.

21 So why not mention that in your statement that you've put into

22 evidence before this Chamber?

23 A. I mean, when there are 100 ambiguous questions, one often has a

24 slip of the tongue or says something that may not necessarily be so.

25 Now, as you put this question, it doesn't pertain to mosques but a

Page 34511

1 mosque. They had their stockings in Sanski Most on their heads. It

2 doesn't concern mosques, in the plural. In Mahala, there was no one with

3 a stocking on their head. There was no need.

4 Q. Sir --

5 A. The first person to arrive in the area of the mosque was Njunja.

6 Q. I'm less focussed on stockings on heads and more the fact that

7 you say you have no idea who destroyed the mosques in Sanski Most. Can

8 we agree that when you said that actually it wasn't the truth?

9 A. Again, you put such questions that one simply doesn't know how to

10 answer them. No matter what I say seems to be incorrect.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I discussed mosques, in the

13 plural, all mosques, and yet again you go back to a single one.

14 JUDGE ORIE: But that single one, Witness, is included in the

15 overall category mosques in Sanski Most.

16 Now, in your statement, you say you had no idea of the

17 perpetrators. Today you told us that, at least in relation to Mahala,

18 you had an idea about the perpetrators, that is, Njunja. And that is

19 what Mr. Jeremy is drawing your attention --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only for one mosque in Mahala. As

21 for the other mosques, I was never able to find out who destroyed them.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So a truthful answer to what you were asked when you

23 gave your statement in paragraph 64 would have been: I do not know who

24 destroyed the mosques in Sanski Most apart from Mahala, where I had an

25 idea who had done it."

Page 34512

1 That would have been the whole truth.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would have been the truth.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

5 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Q. And, Colonel Basara, you -- you know that all the mosques in

7 Sanski Most were knocked down, weren't they?

8 A. I don't know whether all of them were knocked down. As for the

9 villages I went through, I could see that they were, indeed, destroyed

10 there.

11 Q. Let's take a quick look at your Stanisic and Zupljanin testimony.

12 MR. JEREMY: And I'd like to tender the page of this 2002

13 interview that we just looked at. I can come back at the end with an

14 excerpt perhaps.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

16 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps to keep matters also short.

18 Witness, could you tell us whether there was any mosque you saw

19 still standing?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Mosques may have

21 been destroyed even after my departure. In any case, as for the villages

22 I went through, I think there was only one in Kamengrad, an old mosque

23 that had not been destroyed. The new one was though.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the only one you still saw not being

25 destroyed in Sanski Most?

Page 34513

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That was the only one along

2 the route I travelled the most.

3 MR. JEREMY:

4 Q. Okay. Let's ...

5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

6 MR. JEREMY:

7 Q. I have a couple of final questions on this, Colonel Basara. Now

8 you testified in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case that General Talic, your

9 superior commander, explained to you that Major Brajic was a good senior

10 officer who should be kept. And this is in reference to the

11 conversations that you had with General Talic when you suspected that

12 Major Brajic had destroyed this mosque.

13 Now my question to you is: Who was in the superior command who

14 explained to you or explained to General Talic that Major Brajic was a

15 good superior officer who should be kept?

16 A. I don't know who was present. It was a long time ago. He was an

17 infantry man in any case, with specialist knowledge in combat activities

18 and tactical exercises. Given the fact that he was quite younger than

19 me, I expected that he would take over the brigade, and I tried to

20 introduce him to the job, to test him. However, I realised that he was

21 under somebody's influence and I was afraid that politicians would

22 eventually be able to take over the staff and the brigade. When I

23 realised that I could no longer stay --

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, I

25 interrupt you. The simple question was who was in the superior command

Page 34514

1 who explained to you or explained to General Talic that Major Brajic was

2 a good superior officer who should be kept.

3 Who was it? That's the question.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

6 Next question, please.

7 MR. JEREMY:

8 Q. Now, Colonel Basara, there's evidence in this case that the high

9 command did indeed subsequently take steps in respect of Major Brajic,

10 and these steps are indicated in the military notebook of General Mladic,

11 P364, pages 240 to 244.

12 Now, that entry in that notebook dated the 15th of January, 1996,

13 refers to Major Brajic as a -- or refers to a Lieutenant-Colonel Brajic.

14 Were you aware that Brajic was promoted during the course of the war to

15 lieutenant-colonel from a major?

16 A. I'm not aware of that. Because when I left the brigade, while I

17 was in the operations group, I know that he was not promoted and later on

18 I have no idea whatsoever.

19 Q. And the same entry refers to a Lieutenant-Colonel Brajic being

20 appointed to the school of the Main Staff in 1996. Now, were you aware

21 of that, Colonel Basara?

22 A. I know that he went to Manjaca, to the school centre there

23 because he is very competent for training.

24 Q. Okay. Let's leave that there and we will move on. I'd like to

25 briefly discuss operations that your units were engaged in Hrustovo, late

Page 34515

1 May/early June 1992.

2 Now you refer to Hrustovo in your statements in -- in

3 paragraph 47. You explain that when the battalion commander headed

4 towards Hrustovo with his units and entered the village two of his

5 soldiers were killed and you explain that the soldiers gave civilians

6 within Hrustovo the opportunity to evacuate before an attack was

7 launched. That's your -- that's -- that's what you say in paragraph 47.

8 Now you also say that it -- individuals that perished in the

9 village were Muslims who had taken part in the fighting against VRS

10 forces in Hrustovo on the 31st of May, 1992 and you say that these Muslim

11 fighters were dressed in civilian clothes and they were not buried with

12 their weapons so that when they are exhumed one would get the impression

13 that they are civilians, and you say that you exclude the possibility

14 that anyone who did not take part in the combat activities was killed

15 there.

16 Now, Colonel Basara, this Chamber has received evidence that Serb

17 soldiers shot dead a number of civilians, overwhelmingly women and

18 children, who were hiding in a garage, the Merdanovic garage, in Hrustovo

19 on the 31st of May, 1992. P2499, for example.

20 Now this evidence includes exhumation reports, for example,

21 P3299.

22 Now, just so I'm clear, you're not suggesting that these persons

23 were somehow Muslim fighters dressed in civilian clothes, are you?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please answer the question, Witness?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And what was the question?

Page 34516

1 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether the evidence this Chamber

2 received that women and children were killed during the Hrustovo event,

3 whether they were -- had taken part in combat activities.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's clear to everyone that

5 they did not take part in combat. But do give me the day when the first

6 actions took place in Hrustovo and when these people fell victim. So

7 it's not the same day, is it?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, you may --

9 MR. JEREMY: Yes.

10 Q. Colonel Basara, the day is the 31st of May, 1992, and the

11 evidence that this Chamber has received is that women and children were

12 murdered in a garage in Hrustovo on the 31st of May, 1992. Now you

13 were -- you are aware of that incident; yes?

14 A. I heard about that later. I heard of this incident later. I

15 don't know when exactly when I was being questioned. But do tell me the

16 date, when you have this recorded. When did this first attack take place

17 against Hrustovo? I would like to know that date. You do have it

18 registered, don't you.

19 Q. Yes, Colonel Basara, I will repeat the date, it's 31st of

20 May 1992, and you are saying that you were aware of the casualties of

21 women and children but you're also saying that you exclude the

22 possibility that anyone who took part in combat activities was killed

23 there.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Did not take part.

25 MR. JEREMY: Did not take part.

Page 34517

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. JEREMY:

3 Thank you.

4 A. Because combat was taking place. Two hours were given so that

5 all of those who did not wish to fight just like I did in Mahala that

6 they could pull out of that village and go towards Sanski Most. Those

7 who stayed, if combat activities were taking place, could have lost his

8 life and, of course, who was fighting could certainly have been killed.

9 So the army did something that I thought was normal. That is to say,

10 those who do not wish to fight should leave. That is to say, those who

11 remain in Hrustovo would be the ones who wished to fight.

12 Q. Colonel, do you accept that some civilians did remain and those

13 civilians did lose their lives on the 31st of May in Hrustovo in the

14 Merdanovic garage?

15 A. I do not accept that. Those who did not want to get out when

16 combat activities were taking place could have lost his life. When NATO

17 was bombing they didn't give a second for anyone to leave and everybody

18 who got killed was considered to be collateral damage.

19 JUDGE ORIE: But do you then consider the killing of women and

20 children in the garage as collateral damage?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not. But if they did not

22 leave from areas where mortars, Osas, Zoljas and other weapons were being

23 fired then it could have happened that they would get killed. Nobody

24 could have stopped that from happening.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And is it your information that they were killed

Page 34518

1 from mortar fire?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because according to some

3 statements, it says artillery was fired in Hrustovo for three days. So

4 from the area of Golaja, Muslims were firing mortars against the Serbs

5 when they entered Hrustovo. So they could have been killed by their

6 shells too. And before they entered the village, it could have been ours

7 too.

8 JUDGE ORIE: So you do not know, really, about how they were

9 killed? Is that how I have to understand your testimony?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, in your statement, where you say, "I

12 exclude the possibility that anyone who did not take part in the combat

13 activities was killed there," as a matter of fact, you do not know that

14 either, isn't it?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just know that those who did not

16 leave Hrustovo could have lost their lives, and I do not know of a single

17 one who had been killed that had not been fighting.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Including those women and children?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already told you about

20 the women and children.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How that could happen ...

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.

24 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. And, Colonel Basara, the women and children in this garage the

Page 34519

1 evidence that this Chamber has received is that they were not killed by

2 shells or Zoljas that they were killed by weapons, automatic weapons

3 being fired into the garage in which they were hiding. But you indicated

4 that you don't have clear knowledge about this, but that do you know that

5 your units were in Hrustovo village on the 31st of May, 1992, that's --

6 that's accurate, yes?

7 A. I don't know whether it was the 31st of May because I did not

8 keep a diary or something. I don't know what date it was. I don't know

9 that now. And I do know that activities evolved in the way in which I

10 have already presented.

11 As for the dates you have there I mean, there are different

12 references to different dates.

13 Q. Well, sir --

14 A. So --

15 Q. Sir, you're very clear on dates in your statement which is what

16 I'm using now.

17 Let's move onto Vrhpolje which as I understand it was a related

18 operation and which you discuss in your statements.

19 Now, citizen -- civilians who were evacuating from Hrustovo or

20 all those people who didn't want to fight in Hrustovo headed towards

21 Vrhpolje. That's correct, yes?

22 A. Yes. So they were going as they were retreating gradually,

23 nobody took them out. They, themselves, went towards Vrhpolje.

24 Q. Thank you, so the answer is yes. In paragraph 42 of your

25 statement you discuss what you call the crime at Vrhpolje bridge where 16

Page 34520

1 Muslims were killed took place on that same day, and --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So that you're aware that the Prosecution charges that there were

4 28 persons that day, but I want to discuss these events now.

5 Now, your position is that persons who were evacuated from

6 Hrustovo were murdered on Vrhpolje bridge by paramilitaries who

7 intercepted them and then executed a number of them on that bridge.

8 That's -- that's basically your position; yes?

9 A. My position is not several of them as you had put it, but it's

10 16. That is the group that --

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

12 A. -- we could not establish who they were.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We could not hear the rest

14 of the sentence.

15 MR. JEREMY:

16 Q. That's understood, Colonel, and I'm sorry to speak across you, I

17 have limited time.

18 Now, there's evidence before this Trial Chamber and that's at

19 T147 to T169 that the men executed on the bridge of Vrhpolje were being

20 escorted out of Hrustovo by your soldiers who then executed the men on

21 that bridge. And that's -- that's the truth, isn't it?

22 A. That's not the truth. That is a total fabrication of those who

23 are now providing you with that information.

24 Q. Let's go through that in a little bit of detail. Now, from your

25 statement, you indicate that you actually heard the firing on the bridge

Page 34521

1 that -- when you were 100 or 200 metres away from the bridge. This is

2 paragraph 43.

3 Now, It's correct that there was a civilian police check-point on

4 or very near to Vrhpolje bridge; yes?

5 A. Not civilian police but armed men. Some had blue uniforms, I

6 mean, of the civilian protection, others had these camouflage uniforms.

7 Now they were -- was it from the Territorial Defence or civilian

8 protection from Sanski Most? They were the ones who held the check-point

9 there, right by the bridge.

10 Q. So there was a check-point by the bridge which -- which you say

11 may have been staffed by men in blue uniforms or camouflage uniforms.

12 Now you previously indicated that the men at that check-point

13 were armed. That's correct; yes?

14 A. Well, they were armed, and they fired and they made these other

15 people jump into the Sana and then they fired at them. That's the

16 information that I received from these people who watched that.

17 Q. Colonel, to be clear, I want to draw a distinction between the

18 people who you believe are responsible for the executions on the bridge

19 and the people who were staffing the check-point that was on or near to

20 the bridge which you've previously discussed.

21 Now you previously indicated there was a civilian police

22 check-point, that was in the close vicinity of the bridge. So is this

23 correct?

24 A. Well, I've already said that this did exist but it didn't have to

25 be the civilian police. I knew that these were people who were appointed

Page 34522

1 by the leadership of Sanski Most. Now whether there were policemen among

2 them and who that was, that I don't know. But they were at that

3 check-point.

4 Q. Are you now saying today that it was people who were at that

5 check-point who were also involved in the executions on Vrhpolje bridge?

6 A. They were not involved. They were in shelters when I jumped out

7 of the vehicle and ran towards the bridge.

8 Q. And these men who were in the shelters, they were -- they were

9 armed but they took no steps to prevent the executions; correct?

10 A. Well, they did not expect that to happen at all. Because that

11 happened in a moment, so they could not react at all. They couldn't have

12 prevented that. The order issued was that these people should jump and

13 they did not expect them to shoot at them and this happened at lightning

14 speed. And I checked that, and they said that could have not have

15 intervened at all. And then this group escaped to the other side of the

16 bridge when they heard them shouting, Colonel Basara. Then they ran

17 away.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, can I ask one clarifying question.

19 You said the order issued was that these people should jump. How

20 do you know that this was the order?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, listen, now you'll be asking

22 me whether it was written too. Well, the group that was shooting ordered

23 them. They demanded that they jump into the water. And then we jumped

24 into the water, then they started firing at them. And the

25 interpretation --

Page 34523

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I stop you

2 there.

3 First of all, would you refrain from cynical observations.

4 Second, would you please answer my question. My question was:

5 How did you know that this was the order issued?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now you have to explain to me who

7 issued the order so that I could answer that question for you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You said --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who was it that could have issued

10 the order?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I took it from your statement that those

12 who -- Witness, would you not interrupt me. I took it -- Witness, do not

13 interrupt me. Otherwise we'll have to deal with it in another way.

14 I took from your statement that those on the bridge who killed

15 the soldiers, that they ordered them to jump from that bridge.

16 Is that well understood?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's it. Now who ordered

18 that, they ordered that, and those people jumped in, and then they fired

19 at them.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, my question is: How do you know that they were

21 ordered to jump from the bridge instead of, for example, being kicked

22 from the bridge or whatever, but how do you know that they were ordered

23 to jump from that bridge?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no other way they could

25 have jumped, when these people at the check-point claim that they did not

Page 34524

1 throw them in or push them in or that. They said that all of a sudden

2 they all jumped from the bridge. So the only thing that could have

3 happened was that somebody had ordered that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, we are clearly separating the people

5 at the check-point who were in the shelter and those were at the bridge.

6 I'm focussing at this moment on those on the bridge. You said they

7 ordered them to jump from that bridge.

8 Now, could you tell us, how do you know that it -- they ordered

9 them to do that or that they spontaneously jumped from the bridge, or

10 that they were kicked from the bridge, or whatever may have happened?

11 How do you know that they were ordered to jump from the bridge?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is my assumption.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because the explanation given to me

15 was --

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... my question.

17 Thank you.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. JEREMY:

20 Q. Now, Colonel, in respect to this incident in paragraph 43 of your

21 statement, you say that no one recognised the perpetrators.

22 Now, you -- you don't mention this in your statement --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... the fact is that you

25 recognised two of the people who were on the bridge while the shooting

Page 34525

1 was takes place, didn't you?

2 A. Yes. Two persons who escorted Major Brajic, they were present by

3 the bridge, but they kept saying to me all the time that they didn't know

4 anybody from that group. And my impression was that they were not firing

5 at all. They had their weapons on their right shoulders.

6 Q. And what were the names of these two men who were on the bridge

7 who were Major Brajic's escorts and who had their weapons on their

8 shoulders?

9 A. I think one was Mutic, that was his last name. And the other

10 one's first name is Ilija but I don't have all their details. It was a

11 long time ago. So I just remember that one of the escorts was nicknamed

12 Muta, his last name being Mutic and the other one's first name was Ilija.

13 Q. You previously indicated you thought it might be an

14 Ilija Maksimovic. Does that refresh your recollection?

15 A. Maybe. Maksimovic, but I don't remember exactly. I just know it

16 is Ilija.

17 Q. Now the fact that you recognised two men, two men who were in

18 your brigade who were on the bridge at the time of this execution, did

19 you consider that something relevant to include in your statement? And

20 why didn't you include it?

21 A. Well, nobody asked me. And even now, if you're not asking me

22 about something, I don't say anything to you. So if I'm not asked, I

23 cannot state anything.

24 Q. Now, these two escorts of Major Brajic who were on this bridge

25 who you spoke to immediately after this incident, you didn't arrest them,

Page 34526

1 did you?

2 A. I had no grounds on which I could have arrested them because when

3 I jumped out of the vehicle, I saw that their weapons were on their

4 shoulders. They were not among those people on the bridge who were

5 fighting, and the group fled, and they just went on standing there.

6 Q. And --

7 A. And then they walked up to me --

8 Q. Sir, you mentioned the weapons on their shoulders. Did you take

9 those weapons for any sort of ballistics analysis?

10 A. I don't know. I mean, I don't want to sound funny now or

11 anything. I didn't send it off for an analysis. I didn't have time to

12 do that, to examine the victims, to send weapons off to ballistics

13 analysis and so on. All the people I had available were reservists.

14 Q. So 16 men killed almost in front of your eyes and you don't have

15 time to launch a proper investigation into that. Is that your position?

16 A. It's not that I didn't have time. But I didn't have the experts,

17 the organs who could have done that. And I'm not a professional. I am

18 not able to do that.

19 Q. Well --

20 A. So that means that during the war, I should have dealt with such

21 questions, investigations for 90 per cent of my time and leave aside

22 everything else. And combat was ongoing in Hrustovo, so there wasn't

23 enough time. There weren't any professional personnel there who would be

24 capable of doing that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, I'm looking at the clock.

Page 34527

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: In order to make the last session not too short, as

3 a matter of fact, I would refer to take the break now and then resume at

4 quarter to 2.00.

5 Witness, we'll take a break and we'll resume at quarter to 2.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: The videolink apparently is still functioning well.

9 Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed. If I -- my calculation is okay,

10 then you have 20 minutes left.

11 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Now, Colonel Basara, staying with events on Vrhpolje bridge,

13 there is evidence in this case that a 6th Brigade member,

14 Jadranko Palija, was a perpetrator of the killings on Vrhpolje bridge.

15 That's P7072.

16 Now, Colonel Basara, you knew Jadranko Palija; yes?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Now, he was convicted for his involvement in these crimes in the

19 State Court of Bosnia. Did you hear about this conviction? And this was

20 in 2008.

21 A. No.

22 Q. And he's actually also mentioned in connection with this

23 particular crime in the indictment against you in the State Court that's

24 been issued by the BiH prosecutor, and that's in paragraph 8. Do you

25 recall seeing his name in your indictment.

Page 34528

1 Could you repeat your answer, please.

2 A. I wasn't paying attention to the individual names in the

3 indictment, but I understood the charges as laid out, more or less.

4 Q. Now I'd like to look at a document that you issued the day after

5 the events on Vrhpolje bridge and the events in Hrustovo, and that's

6 P2366.

7 MR. JEREMY: If we could please see that on our screens.

8 Q. Now, we see that this is a document from the Command of the

9 6th Brigade and it's dated the 1st of June 1992. If we can please go to

10 page 3 in the English and the B/C/S. Sorry, page 2 in the B/C/S, the

11 last page.

12 And we see your name and the signature. Is that your signature,

13 Colonel Basara?

14 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

15 Q. And in the paragraph immediately above your signature, we read

16 that: This order shall be read out to all subordinate units of the

17 brigade by a time we can't -- that we don't know on the 3rd of June, 1992

18 and the brigade command is to be informed about it through the regular

19 communications system.

20 Colonel Basara, you said something that wasn't captured, could

21 you -- could you repeat it. Or are you saying yes, yes it is?

22 A. I said yes, the date is 3rd of June, 1992.

23 Q. Now if we go back to the first page of this document, please.

24 And the heading is "Establishing discipline in the units of the

25 brigade during combat operations." And we see that there is an order and

Page 34529

1 there are a number of items - we don't have time to deal with them all -

2 but I'd like to focus your attention on -- on number 2. So we see that:

3 "In future combat operations we must not repeat the mistakes we've made

4 before in the treatment of prisoners and that no one has the right to

5 beat or abuse prisoners when they are brought in and until questioning

6 has been carried out. Any soldier who abuses prisoners must be

7 discharged from the unit without delay."

8 And then number 3: "I categorically forbid acts of genocide

9 against the population of the opposing side who are unable to fight,

10 including women, children under 18, the sick and people over 60 years of

11 age."

12 Now, Colonel Basara, this is issued the day after the events in

13 Hrustovo, the -- the executions in the garage. This is a reference to

14 those events, is it not?

15 A. Well, at this moment, I don't know whether it pertained to those

16 events, but it mostly concerned the situation at the Vrhpolje bridge and

17 Kenjari, where 17 people were killed.

18 Q. But, sir --

19 A. That is what prompted me to draft this order.

20 Q. My understanding is that victims of those events were male, male

21 civilians. Now here we see there's a reference to women and children

22 under 18. So which women and children under 18 did you have in mind when

23 you forbidded [sic] acts of genocide against them on the 3rd of June,

24 1992?

25 A. It was a general formulation. It involved the categories that

Page 34530

1 were supposed to be protected in times of war. That is why it had been

2 ordered that all those not wishing to fight had to withdraw to certain

3 areas. It referred to all those who were not capable of fighting.

4 Q. But when I look at this order, Colonel Basara, and I see the

5 title, "Establishing discipline in the units of the brigade," and I see

6 you forbidding acts of genocide against women and children, that

7 certainly suggests to me that are acts that had been carried out that you

8 now needed to forbid in the future.

9 A. It doesn't have to be. I always tried to foresee and to take

10 measures to prevent things from happening.

11 As regards your interpretation, I cannot offer any other

12 explanation.

13 Q. So if I understand your answer correctly you're thinking that

14 this -- this could have been an order that you issued in anticipation of

15 any soldiers in your unit thinking about committing genocide against

16 women and children under 18 and you're just simply forbidding any such

17 future activity?

18 Is that your position?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one short question.

22 And, please, a short answer, Witness. The events we discussed

23 earlier, did they play any role in triggering you to issue this order?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, to a certain extent,

25 especially the event at the Vrhpolje bridge.

Page 34531

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It - how should I put it? - it

3 completely ...

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, you said: "It completely ..." and then

5 I didn't hear the remainder of the sentence.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How should I put it? It drove me

7 nuts completely, thinking that people could do such a thing. I was

8 concerned that such a situation could repeat -- be repeated. That is why

9 I issued this order to pre-empt any such future events.

10 JUDGE ORIE: But was it then your own soldiers who had done it?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't done by my soldiers. But

12 one learns from others' mistakes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm trying to understand why you said that you

14 wanted to -- to restore or at least heighten the discipline. It was

15 triggered by these events, you were addressing your own soldiers,

16 although the events were not including anything done by your soldiers.

17 I'm trying to understand that. If you would be in a position to give me

18 one or two more words on it, I would appreciate it.

19 Next question, please, Mr. Jeremy.

20 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Q. And, Colonel Basara, just before we leave this document, I'd like

22 to focus your attention on number 1 and the third bullet point down where

23 we see a reference to: "All soldiers prone to burning down and

24 destroying buildings from which the enemy is not opening fire at the unit

25 must be discharged."

Page 34532

1 Now, at the time, you -- you believed that -- or -- that Major

2 Brajic had destroyed the mosque in Mahala but you -- you -- you didn't

3 discharge your Chief of Staff from your unit in -- pursuant to your own

4 order, did you?

5 A. I couldn't prove that. I had no witnesses, and I couldn't have

6 him removed on the basis of my suspicion. It is also a question of

7 whether my superior command in the corps would have allowed it.

8 Q. And you think that your superior command in the corps wouldn't

9 have allowed it. That's correct; yes?

10 A. I can't say either way.

11 Q. Okay. Let move on --

12 A. But that was my reasoning at the time.

13 Q. Let's move on. In paragraph 50 of your statement, you refer to

14 Skrljevita, and you state that: "I do not even know where this is." The

15 paramilitary would go from municipality to municipality and that your

16 unit was not in that village.

17 Now, Colonel Basara, it's -- it's -- it's correct that you

18 actually issued a criminal report against Danilusko Kajtez in respect of

19 this incident on the 7th of December, 1992, is it not?

20 A. It is incorrect. It was issued by Colonel Kajtez, his uncle,

21 because it happened after I left the brigade.

22 Q. Okay. Let's take a quick look at 65 ter 06529, please.

23 Now, on the screen before you, Colonel Basara, is a document

24 dated the 7th of December, 1992. You'd not left the brigade by this

25 time, correct, you said you left in the middle of December 1992?

Page 34533

1 A. I don't know exactly when I left, but it was sometime in

2 December. You have --

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... let's go to the last page.

4 And we see there, Colonel Basara, your name and your signature. Do you

5 see that?

6 A. Yes, it is my signature.

7 Q. And can we go to page 2 in the English and 2 in the B/C/S,

8 please.

9 Now, Colonel Basara, you see that the subheading, "Description of

10 crime." We see that on the 1st of November, 1992, in Glamosnica, the

11 passage for Skrljevita, Danilusko Kajtez and others laid in wait for a

12 man who came from Skrljevita who Dane then" - if we go to the next page

13 in the English - "questioned about who was on guard, what weapons they

14 had, who was organising them. Dane then killed with him his light

15 machine-gun by firing a bullet into his chest." And then you go on to

16 talk about another incident on -- on the same day, where more persons

17 were killed.

18 So I understand it was a long time ago, Colonel Basara, but in

19 fact, you did know about this incident in Skrljevita and you did have the

20 capacity to request -- request the Office of the Military Prosecutor to

21 investigate certain crimes, didn't you?

22 MR. LUKIC: Objection.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 MR. LUKIC: It does not say that it was in Skrljevita. Please

25 read the first sentence after the subtitle. It says: "In the place of

Page 34534

1 Glamosnica, passage to Skrljevita." So it's not Skrljevita.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I think that Mr. Jeremy said Glamosnica and then

3 he ... let me just see. Glamosnica, the palm of Skrljevita. Let me just

4 see whether that's a ...

5 MR. LUKIC: In line 17, says this incident in Skrljevita. So it

6 can be [Overlapping speakers] ...

7 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it's --

8 Yes, apparently the witness -- Mr. Jeremy considered Glamosnica

9 part of that. Is that ...

10 MR. JEREMY: Yeah that's.

11 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the document says.

12 MR. JEREMY: That's correct. That's [Overlapping speakers] ...

13 JUDGE ORIE: It's a -- Mr. Lukic, doesn't assist that much, is

14 it.

15 Please proceed.

16 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Q. So, Colonel Basara, back to my question. The fact is you did

18 know about this incident in Skrljevita, or near Glamosnica, and that

19 you -- you did request an investigation into this incident by the Office

20 of the Military Prosecutor, and you clearly had the capacity to do that;

21 yes?

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And now your answer, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, this Danilusko

24 was finally convicted.

25 MR. JEREMY:

Page 34535

1 Q. Sir that's not my investigation?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

3 ... had been an investigation.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please be so kind to answer the

5 question rather than to elaborate on matters not asked?

6 MR. JEREMY:

7 Q. And, Colonel Basara, that question is that you did know about

8 these incidents involving Danilusko Kajtez in Skrljevita, yes or no.

9 A. I can't say now that I remember it. However, given the fact that

10 I signed it, in all likelihood information was provided to me by the

11 security organ and I signed it.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. However based on some further --

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

16 MR. JEREMY:

17 Q. And you would agree that you clearly had the capacity to request

18 the Office of the Military Investigator to investigate crimes that you

19 wanted to be investigated; yes?

20 A. Well, there was that possibility, and procedure was initiated and

21 information forwarded.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. JEREMY: I'd like to tender that document as the next

24 Prosecution Exhibit.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

Page 34536

1 THE REGISTRAR: 06529 receives number P7323.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

3 MR. JEREMY:

4 Q. And, Colonel Basara, a final topic. Now, yesterday you -- you

5 told this Trial Chamber that you had no occasion to meet General Mladic

6 during the war; is that -- is that correct.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, did you ever attend any meetings at which General Mladic was

9 also present?

10 A. Only once, in Banja Luka. There was a large room where many of

11 us were, and Mladic was in attendance. However, I had no opportunity to

12 contact him or to speak with him.

13 Q. Thank you. Let's take a look at a document in connection with

14 that answer.

15 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 00585.

16 Q. While that's coming up, Colonel Basara, what was the -- what was

17 the date of this meeting that you -- you attended together with

18 General Mladic?

19 A. No clue. I don't know the date.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Because --

22 Q. That's understood. Now on the screen before us we have a report

23 that if we go to the last page or it's dated 16 September 1992. And on

24 the last page we see your signature Commander Colonel Branko Basara.

25 MR. JEREMY: And could we go back to the first page, please.

Page 34537

1 Q. Now we see that this is a report from the consultation on the

2 state of the VRS under the leadership of lieutenant-general Ratko Mladic,

3 and we see reference to a consultation meeting on 13th of September 1992

4 with -- that included commanders of the brigades in the 1st Krajina

5 Corps.

6 That's the meeting that you recollect; yes? Just a yes or no

7 answer.

8 A. That's the one.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 A. But without documents to jog my memory I do not remember.

11 Q. We have a document here.

12 MR. JEREMY: Could we go to page 2, please, in the English and

13 page 3 in the B/C/S.

14 Q. I just want to focus your attention on number 5: Tasks issued by

15 General Mladic. And I'd look to focus just on one of those tasks, number

16 5 which reads: "Extend maximum support to the civilian authorities and

17 the MUP."

18 Now, Colonel Basara, we see at the start of your testimony that

19 the document that transferred, the order that transferred the 6th Brigade

20 to Sanski Most by General Talic dated the 3rd of April 1992 requested

21 that your brigade establish full co-operation with organs of government

22 in Sanski Most. Now, we see that a number of months on, after the crimes

23 that we have been discussing today, yesterday, and in your statement, you

24 are, again, being advised by General Mladic to extend maximum support to

25 the civilian authorities and the MUP. And that's exactly what you did,

Page 34538

1 isn't it?

2 A. No. You have to refer specifically to what kind of assistance it

3 relates to. Because if they asked for assistance, it was given. If they

4 did not, we did not offer our services.

5 Q. Thank you, Colonel Basara. Thank you for those answers.

6 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I have no further questions.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you Mr. Jeremy.

8 MR. JEREMY: I'd like to tender that document.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar the number would be.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number P7324.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 Mr. Lukic, may I take it, not today, but that you would have

13 further questions for the witness.

14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I will, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us a time estimate for that.

16 MR. LUKIC: Not at this moment. I will be more organised in the

17 morning. But I will have a quite a lot of more questions after this long

18 cross-examination.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would give us a time estimate tomorrow

20 morning, then we'll consider how much time you'd have.

21 Witness, Mr. Basara, tomorrow, there will be some further

22 questions for you. I hope that all the transportation problems have been

23 resolved. At least I established that you were in the videolink room. I

24 again instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever

25 way with whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony given

Page 34539

1 yesterday and today, or whether that is testimony still to be given

2 tomorrow.

3 If that's clear to you, we'd like to see you back tomorrow

4 morning at 9.30.

5 Then we can --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. I understood.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then we can close the videolink. I have one short

8 matter which I would like to briefly address.

9 It is about the time available for the Prosecution for

10 presentation of its re-opened case.

11 Last week the Chamber decided on the Prosecution's 45th Rule 92

12 bis motion. The Chamber is now in a position to set the time available

13 for the Prosecution to present its re-opening. The Prosecution will call

14 eight witnesses - two 92 ter and six expert witnesses - and the Chamber

15 grants the Prosecution's request to hear those eight witnesses within

16 nine hours.

17 We adjourn for the day -- one second, please.

18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm reminded that I had not yet -- that the Chamber

20 had not yet decided on the admission of the document last tendered by the

21 Prosecution. That was -- yes, that's ... P7324 is admitted into

22 evidence.

23 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the

24 22nd of April, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

Page 34540

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of

2 April, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.