150423IT

Page 34624

1 And 12842 receives number P7330.

2 JUDGE ORIE: P7328, P7329, and P7330 are admitted into evidence.

3 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honour, just very briefly there's one

4 translation matter that may arise with a document that I'll use this

5 session. Mr. Stojanovic and I are in agreement about it and I'll just

6 note if it arises.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

8 WITNESS: GRUJO BORIC [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 [Witness testified via videolink]

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

12 Q. Good morning, sir.

13 JUDGE ORIE: But before we continue, Mr. Boric, I'd like to

14 remind that you you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

15 at the beginning of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the

16 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. Sir, I'm going to start today with your first meeting with

20 General Mladic in Petrovac. Yesterday, you said he was addressing a

21 meeting there and you testified it was in April 1991. This meeting, in

22 fact, was in April 1992; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And at this meeting General Mladic told the assembled leaders in

25 Petrovac municipality, among other things, to prepare for war and for

Page 34625

1 defence; right?

2 A. His words were uttered in that sense, given the fact that he had

3 already seen war in Knin.

4 Q. And when he's talking about -- when he was talking about

5 preparing for war, the enemy then would be the Muslims; right?

6 A. Yes. And Croats.

7 Q. And once you became corps commander, you would speak with

8 General Mladic every morning; right?

9 A. Not exactly every morning.

10 Q. Well, can we have 65 ter 32422, page 90. This is a portion of

11 your suspect interview with the Office of the Prosecutor.

12 And at the end of your first answer, you say: "I would speak to

13 General Mladic every morning between 7.00 and 8.00 a.m. and I would just

14 say, Boss, everything is fine, if it was fine. If it wasn't ..."

15 And then in your next answer, you explain the problems would be

16 included in your report.

17 Do you stand by this portion of your interview with the Office of

18 the Prosecutor?

19 A. I had occasion to speak to him every morning, if needed, but I'm

20 not certain that we actually did speak every morning. Because I wasn't

21 at the command post all the time. I also toured my units, and when

22 possible, I would be in communication with him. In any case, whatever I

23 said, I stand by it.

24 Q. Sir, I'm not entirely clear from your answer. Is it right that

25 you're adopting now your statement in your interview that you would speak

Page 34626

1 to him every morning between 7.00 and 8.00?

2 A. We didn't speak every morning. I can't accept that.

3 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that a number be reserved for

4 portions of the interview.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you reserve a number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the number to reserve is P7331.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and will deal with excerpts from the witness

8 interview.

9 MR. TRALDI:

10 Q. And regarding the 2nd Krajina Corps and you yourself, Mladic was

11 always aware of what was going on; right.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You described yesterday the reporting by the 2nd Krajina Corps to

14 the Main Staff. General Mladic would review those reports, and every

15 second or third day, a representative of the Main Staff would be sent to

16 the corps command; right?

17 A. Well, not every second or third day. Not as often. Let's say

18 once or twice every month, and, if needed, it was more frequent. That

19 was the frequency of visits of representatives of the Main Staff to the

20 2nd Corps.

21 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32422, page 87.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's P7331, reserved.

23 MR. TRALDI: I apologise, Your Honour. Yes, P7331.

24 Q. Now, beginning in the middle of the page, you were asked:

25 "... every day, you have to know that every day we had to send the report

Page 34627

1 to the Main Staff by 1800 hours of everything that happened in the AOR

2 that day. Based on that, the command of the Main Staff had, used to send

3 his subordinates to visit the corps. And ... they would spend two or

4 three days in the corps and once they were done they'd submit the report

5 to the Main Staff command. So every second or third day, we had a

6 representative, some representative of the Main Staff in the corps."

7 So my first question is: Do you stand by this portion of your

8 interview as truthful and accurate?

9 A. One could say so.

10 Q. At the moment, sir, I'm interested in whether you say so today.

11 Do you stand by this portion of your interview as truthful and accurate?

12 A. I would say that everything is accurate except for the fact that

13 "every day" someone came to the corps from the Main Staff.

14 Q. And --

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Traldi, your introduction to the portion you

16 read reads you were asked, but it was not the question, but the response

17 by the person named GB.

18 MR. TRALDI: And between that and the complete text I may have

19 create add small amount of confusion which I'll try to rectify now,

20 Your Honour. Thank you.

21 Q. Sir, "every day" in your previous interview referred to the

22 reporting. What it says here is: "Based on that, the command of the

23 Main Staff had used to send his subordinates to visit the corps and then

24 they would spent two or three days in the corps and once they were done,

25 they'd submit the report to the Main Staff command. So every second or

Page 34628

1 third day, we had a representative, some representative of the Main Staff

2 in the corps."

3 The portion that I have just read out to you now, do you today

4 stand by that as truthful and accurate, yes or no?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And was that the case throughout the war?

7 A. No. It didn't take place every two or three days. Perhaps every

8 fortnight. It all depended on the situation at the front.

9 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'll ask to include this page in the

10 excerpts.

11 Q. General Mladic, because of his visits and the Main Staff visits,

12 knew all the brigade commanders and all the brigade commands in your

13 corps; right?

14 A. He knew all the brigade commanders, but I can't say that he knew

15 each and every officer in the brigade commands.

16 Q. Now, the combat operations planned by your corps were planned in

17 response to larger directives from the Main Staff; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You'd gather your staff in the operations centre, inform them of

20 the Main Staff's order, and then draft your own order on that basis to

21 send to subordinate units; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And your brigade commanders never launched an offensive operation

24 without your approval that you know of; right?

25 A. That is also true.

Page 34629

1 Q. Communications from the Main Staff were sent to your corps'

2 operations centre; right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, we're going to pull up one document in Sanction now, 65 ter

5 23429, and I'd just ask to you say "yes" when you can see it on your

6 screen there.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Mr. Traldi, I'm sorry, we can see

8 the document but it is not legible. The witness cannot read it and we

9 don't have it on the DVD provided.

10 MR. TRALDI: It arises out of one answer he provided yesterday.

11 Can we zoom in on the date in the top left corner. I won't be asking him

12 to refer to any text.

13 Q. Do you see that the date is the 20th of May, 1992?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. And turning to the end in both languages, the end of the

16 document.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: If we can see the second language, please.

18 MR. TRALDI: I'm told we can only play one in Sanction at a time.

19 And because it's just the dates, Your Honour, that I'm referring to.

20 Q. Now, at the end, we see a receipt stamp from the 10th Corps

21 operations centre. Can you also see the date, the 20th of May, 1992

22 there?

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we centralise the stamp.

24 A. I see it.

25 MR. TRALDI:

Page 34630

1 Q. Now, at the time the 10th Corps operations stamp would have

2 referred to your operations centre, the one that had previously been the

3 operations centre of the 10th Corps of the JNA; right?

4 A. I don't understand the question.

5 Q. That stamp that shows it was received by the 10th Corps

6 operations centre on the 20th of May, 1992, that's your operations

7 centre; right?

8 A. It is the operations centre of the 10th Corps.

9 Q. And at the time, that's your corps; right?

10 A. I was then appointed as corps commander to a corps that didn't

11 exist practically speaking. All the units that were in Croatian

12 territory remained there. Only some soldiers and officers, as well as

13 some assets, were pulled out to the territory of Petrovac. At that time

14 I had not been appointed the commander of the 2nd Krajina Corps.

15 Q. Sir, the pull-out to Petrovac was from Bihac, right, as you

16 testified yesterday?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. What I'm putting to you very simply is yesterday I showed you a

19 document from the VRS Main Staff dated 19th of May. You suggested in

20 your answer that you were not receiving information from the Main Staff

21 until the 23rd. What I'm putting to you is: Your corps was clearly

22 receiving information from the Main Staff the same day it was sent, no

23 later than the 20th of May; right?

24 A. I can't recall whether the centre existed in the first place

25 although I see the stamp. We moved out and there was no command in place

Page 34631

1 except for the units which reached the sector of Petrovac. They were the

2 units I commanded. I had no communication with the JNA staff, and there

3 was no communication with the Main Staff at the time.

4 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 23429.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number P7332.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: And is there a translation uploaded, Mr. Traldi?

9 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Just for -- to know for sure. We haven't seen it

11 yet. But P7332 is admitted.

12 MR. TRALDI:

13 Q. Now, yesterday, sir, at transcript page 34593, you testified that

14 you didn't know that there was a Crisis Staff in any of the

15 municipalities in your area of responsibility. Now, in your suspect

16 interview, you mentioned that a representative of the VRS always had to

17 be on each municipality's Crisis Staff.

18 First, does that refresh your recollection as to whether you knew

19 such Crisis Staffs existed in your area of responsibility?

20 A. I did not state that, that there was a VRS representative on the

21 Crisis Staff.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

23 A. At no municipality was there a representative of the

24 2nd Krajina Corps ...

25 Q. Let's have 65 ter 32422, page 148, as it comes up, sir, what I'm

Page 34632

1 suggest to that you is a representative at the brigade level was on each

2 municipality's Crisis Staff, not from the corps command.

3 And you were asked here in the middle of the page by Mr. Grady.

4 "We know from investigating many municipal Crisis Staffs and regional

5 Crisis Staffs that it was very common for a commander of the -- of the

6 brigades to be a member of the Crisis Staffs [sic]."

7 You answer: "A representative of the army always had to be

8 there."

9 And he asks you: "Why was that? Was that a policy that was

10 established by the SDS in agreement with the army?

11 And you answer: "No, this was according to our rules, even at

12 peacetime, that these staffs would be attended by -- had to be attended

13 by a representative of the military."

14 Now do you stand by your portion of your interview as truthful

15 and accurate today?

16 A. No.

17 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not accurate.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the very

20 end of the witness's answer.

21 MR. TRALDI:

22 Q. Sir, could you repeat your explanation as to why your previous

23 answer was not accurate.

24 A. It is not truthful.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 34633

1 A. If you believe --

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

3 A. Please do not interrupt me. Please do not interrupt me. If

4 you're asking me to answer, do not interrupt.

5 There's nothing else to say on my part. It is not true. The

6 commander -- the brigade commander did not have any links with the

7 municipal president. I don't know whether the municipal president would

8 come to the Crisis Staff, but the brigade commander was aware of the

9 issues being worked on at a particular moment in the municipalities.

10 Q. So it's your evidence that you incorrectly and untruthfully

11 stated 11 years ago that representatives of the army always had to be

12 present at Crisis Staff meetings; is that right?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. Could

15 the witness kindly take his earphones off. I'd like to point to an issue

16 in the transcript that was indicated to me.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I see that the witness has done so. Please proceed.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Line 11, sorry. Page 11, line

19 4, apparently something contradicting what the witness said was entered.

20 What was entered that there was no communication between the brigade

21 commander and the municipal president, whereas the witness said they were

22 always in contact. Which can cause confusion. Perhaps my learned

23 friend, the Prosecutor, could clear this up with the witness.

24 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to follow Mr. Stojanovic's suggestion.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness put his -- put on his earphones

Page 34634

1 again.

2 MR. TRALDI:

3 Q. First, sir, is it correct that you testified a moment ago - and

4 this is just a matter for the transcript - that the brigade commander and

5 the municipal president were always in contact?

6 A. That is correct. They were in the same territory and they were

7 in contact all the time. Directly.

8 Q. And, second, just to make sure I understand your answers

9 regarding the relationship between the brigade and the Crisis Staff, it's

10 your evidence today that you inaccurately and untruthfully stated in your

11 interview that a representative of the VRS always had to attend

12 Crisis Staff meetings. Is that right?

13 A. I would like to see where it is that I stated that. If it is

14 written down, I'd like to see that here. Not a single representative of

15 the army was on the Crisis Staff. Not in a single municipality. And

16 also no representative of the 2nd Krajina Corps. Not in a single

17 municipality. Not in a single Crisis Staff. I firmly stand by that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, it will be read to you again. It is not

19 available in your language, but if need be, we could verify whether this

20 is what you said, because there's an audio recording of this interview.

21 So therefore if you say, I didn't say it, then we'll verify that. And if

22 you -- if it's read again to, if you would say, Yes, I may have said

23 that, please tell us.

24 Could you read again the portion you're focussing on, Mr. Traldi.

25 MR. TRALDI:

Page 34635

1 Q. Mr. Grady asks: "We know from investigating many municipal

2 Crisis Staffs and regional Crisis Staffs that it was very common for a

3 commander of the -- of the brigades to be a member of the Crisis Staff."

4 You respond: "A representative of the army always had to be

5 there."

6 You're then asked: "Why was that? Was that a policy that was

7 established by the SDS in agreement with the army? "

8 You respond: "No. This was according to our rules," you say,

9 "even at peacetime, that these staffs would be attended by -- had to be

10 attended by a representative of the military."

11 So, again, do you say, yes, you may have said? Do you say, I

12 didn't say that? Do you recall making that statement in your OTP

13 interview?

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't wish to be cautioned,

17 so, again, could I kindly ask that the witness take off his earphones for

18 a moment.

19 I do apologise to you, General.

20 I would like the Trial Chamber to approve of that.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, could I just verify with the

23 representative of the Registry in the videolink room, if the witness

24 takes off his earphones, is there any way, he could, nevertheless, hear

25 what Mr. Stojanovic is saying now?

Page 34636

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, no, there's no way

2 that he can hear.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

6 I now object to the question because this is a mis-citation. The

7 transcript does not reflect at all that the witness said that somebody

8 from the brigade was a member of the Crisis Staff. The concept of Crisis

9 Staff was used --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the end of

11 Mr. Stojanovic's answer.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, what Mr. Traldi read, that is,

13 attending those meetings, is -- I would agree with you, is slightly

14 different from the language used before to be a member of the Crisis

15 Staff. But the way in which the question was phrased is accurate and

16 correct.

17 Therefore, the objection is denied.

18 Could the witness put on his earphones again.

19 MR. TRALDI:

20 Q. Sir, I know it's been a moment. Do you recall the portion of

21 your interview that I've now read to you twice?

22 A. I can tell you that in the Crisis Staff it was not obligatory to

23 have a representative of the military. However, when certain meetings

24 were held a representative of the army would be invited and a

25 representative would attend. I allow for that. I allow that I said

Page 34637

1 that.

2 JUDGE ORIE: No, but could we then go back to the question that

3 was put to you, whether what was read to you, whether that is what you

4 said during the interview.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not fully.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because you keep telling me that it

8 is obligatory for a member of the military to be on the Crisis Staff,

9 which is not correct.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm not putting that to you. I'm asking

11 you whether what was read by Mr. Traldi, read being your words during the

12 interview, whether you acknowledge that you used those words or that you

13 deny or dispute that you used that language when you were interviewed.

14 I'm not asking you at this moment how it was, but I'm asking exclusively

15 on whether that is what you said during the interview.

16 Could you answer that question?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by what I said just now. I

18 cannot say anything different.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking you again: Whether the words read out to

20 you reflects what you said during your interview. Apart from whether you

21 stand by it, but just whether that is what you said.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

24 MR. TRALDI:

25 Q. Now the Chamber has received evidence that, for instance,

Page 34638

1 Bosko Lukic was on the Crisis Staff in Kljuc. He was a member of the

2 17th Brigade in your corps; right?

3 A. I don't know.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, in view of the previous answer of the

5 witness, the Chamber would appreciate if you, together with the Defence,

6 would verify whether the transcript of the interview is accurate and

7 whether those words were spoken by the witness, yes or no. And an

8 agreement between the parties would do. If there's any dispute, we'll

9 hear.

10 MR. TRALDI: We'll do that, Mr. President. And that page may be

11 reflected in the excerpts we seek to tender, depending on the outcome.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that if the accuracy issue has been

13 resolved that you make it part of the excerpt.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. TRALDI:

16 Q. Now, sir, you discussed a moment ago whether members of your

17 brigades attended meetings of the Crisis Staff. You opined whether it

18 was obligatory for them to be on the Crisis Staff. Is it correct that by

19 this point your recollection is refreshed as to whether Crisis Staffs

20 existed in the municipalities in your area of responsibility?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. In fact, you sometimes attended Crisis Staff meetings yourself,

23 didn't you?

24 A. No. These were not Crisis Staffs.

25 Q. Can we have --

Page 34639

1 A. If -- please allow me to finish.

2 Q. Sir, you've answered my question.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, witness. Witness. Witness. Witness, I'll

4 stop you there. If --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are interrupting me all the

6 time.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm interrupting you and for good reasons,

8 Mr. Boric. If you've answered the question that you do not know a

9 certain thing and you say that these are not Crisis Staffs, that is

10 accepted by Mr. Traldi as an answer to his question, and he may then put

11 his next question to you. He is entitled to do that. So please do not

12 again say that you should not be interrupted. If you're interrupted

13 unfairly, I'll intervene -- witness. Witness. Witness, if you're

14 talking about interrupting, that's what you're doing at this moment

15 yourself. If the interruption would be unfair to you, I'll intervene.

16 If, at the end of your testimony there's something you would like to add

17 or say this where I was interrupted is important and I still want to

18 bring it to your attention, you'll have an opportunity to do so.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

20 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 08917.

21 Q. These are the minutes of the 23rd Session of the Petrovac

22 Municipality Crisis Staff. At the top, we see a list of persons present.

23 The next-to-last name is Colonel Boric, Commander of the 2nd Krajina

24 Corps. You did, in fact, have occasion to attend Crisis Staff meetings

25 yourself, didn't you?

Page 34640

1 A. Probably I attended that meeting. Had I known that -- or,

2 rather, that I knew that that was called the Crisis Staff, I really had

3 no idea.

4 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I tender the document.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 08917 receives number P7333.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence; P7333.

10 Witness, you've told us now quite a few things, including that

11 you may have attended this meeting of the Crisis Staff. You told us that

12 other meetings may not have been meetings of Crisis Staffs. Yesterday

13 you said you weren't aware of the existence of a Crisis Staff or Crisis

14 Staffs.

15 That clearly contradicts, and I would ask you to be very precise

16 in both listening to the question and in your answers. Because from

17 today's testimony, it appears that you were aware of the existence of

18 Crisis Staffs.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. TRALDI:

21 Q. Now, aside from co-operating with the civilian authorities, the

22 brigades in your corps also co-operated with the civilian police; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the chief of police would also be on the Crisis Staff; right?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 34641

1 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32422, page 235. 32422, and this

2 again is the OTP interview.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: P7331.

4 MR. TRALDI: I'll try to get the P number right next time. Thank

5 you, Your Honour.

6 Page 235.

7 Q. Now at the very bottom of the page, you were asked: "... not

8 only is a brigade commander is a member of the Crisis Staff, but in the

9 municipalities, the chief of police or his designate is also a member of

10 the Crisis Staff or War Presidency?"

11 Turning to the top of the next page, we read your answer: "It

12 was the chief of police who was usually -- not usually but had to be," we

13 read "opt Crisis Staff."

14 Do you stand by your portion of your interview as truthful and

15 accurate?

16 A. You see that the president of the municipality Novakovic invited

17 me to a meeting. And at that meeting there were all of his co-workers.

18 Now what their name was, were they a Crisis Staff --

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... witness, I

20 interrupt you again. A portion was read to you from what you said during

21 the interview; that is, about the chief of police and his relation with

22 the Crisis Staff. Do you stand by what you said then?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe he was.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That's still not an answer to my question, but let's

25 move on.

Page 34642

1 MR. TRALDI:

2 Q. Turning to the bottom of this page --

3 A. The question was whether the chief of police was on the Crisis

4 Staff. And I said that I did not know, and --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm interrupting you again. That was not

6 the question I put to you and listen carefully to the next question that

7 will be put to you.

8 MR. TRALDI:

9 Q. Continuing with the topic of co-operation between the brigades in

10 your corps and the police, the bottom of the page you were asked about

11 that co-operation. You were asked: "That's left to the local commanders

12 dealing with their local SJBs then?"

13 And you answer: "Yes. That's exactly right because, for

14 instance, in Petrovac the brigade commander is in direct" -- and we turn

15 to the next page: "... connection -- direct communication with local

16 chief of the MUP in his zone."

17 Do you stand by that answer that you provided as truthful and

18 accurate?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And would it be fair to say to that your recollection of events

21 was fresher in 2004 than it is today?

22 A. No.

23 Q. I'm going to turn now to when Kljuc entered your area of

24 responsibility.

25 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P5137.

Page 34643

1 Q. Now, this is your organisational order for the formation of the

2 units of the 2nd Krajina Corps dated the 2nd of June, 1992. Turning to

3 page 7 in the English and 6 in the B/C/S, at point 12, we see a reference

4 to the 17th Kljuc Brigade. So it's clear that as of the 2nd of June,

5 1992, you were at the very least ordering the formation of a brigade in

6 Kljuc; correct?

7 A. The 2nd Krajina Corps received an order from the Main Staff on

8 the 3rd of July, 1992 to have the 17th Kljuc Brigade become part of the

9 2nd Krajina Corps.

10 Now what you asked just now, I presume that that is correct.

11 Q. Sir, I'm putting to you that this, in fact, happened in early

12 June 1992. That's the truth; right?

13 A. I'm waiting to read this here.

14 Q. We see here your order of the 2nd of June.

15 Let's have 65 ter 31853 next.

16 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness is still looking at the document, he

17 should be allowed to finish what he wishes to read.

18 Although it's mainly about the date, Mr. Boric, that Mr. Traldi

19 asks you questions. Perhaps if we move to the first page.

20 MR. TRALDI:

21 Q. Do you see in the top left corner that the date is the 2nd of

22 June?

23 A. I do.

24 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 31853.

25 Q. Now this is a daily combat report from the 17th Kljuc Light

Page 34644

1 Infantry Brigade Command to the 2nd Krajina Corps Command dated the 12th

2 of June, 1992.

3 Does this refresh your recollection that by the 12th of June,

4 1992, the 17th Brigade was part of the composition of your corps?

5 A. I see the dates, but I also know the date when we received this,

6 about the establishment of the brigade. You have that order.

7 MR. TRALDI: Let's have 65 ter 31854.

8 Q. This is a daily combat report from the 17th Brigade the next day,

9 the 13th of June, 1992. I'll ask again: Does this refresh your

10 recollection that no later than the 12th and 13th of June, 1992, the

11 17th Brigade was part of your -- of the composition of your corps and

12 sending daily reports to your corps command?

13 A. What is written here is probably correct.

14 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 31853 and 31854.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 31853 receives number P7334. And

17 31854 receives number P7335.

18 JUDGE ORIE: P7334 and P7335 are admitted.

19 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 06206.

20 Q. This is an order for further operations from you, dated the 8th

21 of June, 1992. Directing your attention to point 2 first, we read: "The

22 Army of the SRBH has been given the task of offensive operations with the

23 limited aim of repairing the operative-tactic position in the wider

24 region of Sarajevo, in northern and Eastern Bosnia, while at the same

25 time firmly holding the front lines on Serbian peripheral territories and

Page 34645

1 protecting the Serbian people [sic] from genocide and extinction."

2 This is an example of what we talked about before you issuing an

3 order on the basis of a directive from the VRS Main Staff; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in this case, that's Directive 1. For the record, P474.

6 Turning to page 2 in both languages --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, I think you read the -- "protecting the

8 Serbian people."

9 Whereas the original reads "the Serbian population."

10 MR. TRALDI: I apologise, Your Honour. My notes may have been

11 inaccurate.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

13 MR. TRALDI: Thank you.

14 Q. Turning to page 2, under point 4, we see that one of the things

15 you've decided with a part of the force to control the area and liquidate

16 splintered forces Green Berets in the municipality of Kljuc. This is

17 because, as of the time you issued this order on 8th of June, Kljuc was

18 in your area of responsibility; right?

19 A. I cannot see that here. Over here. On this slide.

20 Q. If you look under the word "operaciju izvesti" and you look at

21 the first point third line, you see a reference to Kljuc; right?

22 A. I see that now.

23 Q. And you also see one at the top of the page; right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you're issuing tasks regarding activities in Kljuc

Page 34646

1 municipality in this order because by this point, it's part of your area

2 of responsibility; right?

3 A. That is what is written.

4 Q. Turn to page 5 in both languages --

5 JUDGE ORIE: It's not a real answer to your question.

6 We see that it's written, Witness. Is it accurate, what

7 Mr. Traldi said, that this was within your area of responsibility on that

8 date?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume it is.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is why I'm saying -- may I

12 respond?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think you have responded by saying that you

14 assume that it is.

15 Please proceed.

16 MR. TRALDI:

17 Q. Now --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At the bottom of this page in the English, and the top in the

20 B/C/S, we read that prisoners take in these operations are to be

21 transported to the 2nd Krajina Corps prisoner of war camp in the

22 elementary school in the village of Kamenica, Drvar. That's the camp you

23 mentioned yesterday which was under the control of the 2nd Krajina

24 Corps's security organ; right?

25 A. It was a prison, but, all right, they called it a camp too. Camp

Page 34647

1 is a bit broader. One always means Jasenovac, and there was no such

2 thing. It is correct. There was a prison in Kamenica and Drvar.

3 Q. Well, I'm not necessarily comparing it to Jasenovac, sir. But we

4 see in this document that you call it a camp; right?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. And the commander at Kamenica was subordinated to Major Mitrovic;

7 right?

8 A. Yes, Major Mitrovic was the chief of security, and he was

9 subordinated to him.

10 Q. And you say "chief of security." That's the chief of security in

11 the 2nd Krajina Corps subordinated directly to you; right?

12 A. Yes, correct.

13 Q. And it would be the military police responsible for prisoners

14 taken to the camp; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, I'd tender this document, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 06206 receives number P7336.

19 JUDGE ORIE: P7336 is admitted into evidence.

20 Mr. Traldi, may be my mastering of the English language, but did

21 you intend to say that the military police was responsible for the

22 prisoners to be taken to the camps so, that is, transporting them to the

23 camp or that they were responsible for prisoners that were taken to the

24 camp and therefore were in the camp? But it may be that my understanding

25 of the English language is not very precise in this respect.

Page 34648

1 MR. TRALDI: I suspect that it -- on this occasion it's that my

2 use of the English language may not have been very precise. Let me split

3 the question up.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

5 MR. TRALDI:

6 Q. Now, first, sir, it would have been the responsibility of the

7 military police to transport the prisoners to the camp in Kamenica;

8 right?

9 A. The subordinate units which had prisoners brought them to Drvar

10 where the prisoners were taken over by the police. They would screen

11 them and send them onto Banja Luka.

12 Q. And prisoners held at Kamenica, they were under the

13 responsibility of the military police, weren't they?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. TRALDI: Now can we have P3754.

16 Q. Now this is an order for further operations dated the 25th of

17 June, 1992 by Drago Samardzija, the commander of the 17th Brigade. He

18 issued this order pursuant to your order that we just saw now, P7336;

19 right?

20 A. I suppose so.

21 Q. We see in point 1, he has decided to act jointly with the

22 6th Infantry Brigade. That's the 1st Krajina Corps unit at the time;

23 right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The commander of the 1st Krajina Corps at the time was

Page 34649

1 General Momir Talic; right?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. And because this operation involved units from both corps, you

4 had to co-ordinate with General Talic about it; right?

5 A. No.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness needs to

7 repeat the answer because of the quality of sound.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because of the quality of sound - and we hope

9 that it is better, could you again complete your answer.

10 The question was because this operation involved units from both

11 corps, you had to co-ordinate with General Talic about it; right?

12 And your answer was: No.

13 Could you tell us what you then added.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the brigade commands

15 co-ordinated it.

16 MR. TRALDI:

17 Q. So your evidence today is you wouldn't have had to reach out to

18 General Talic to co-ordinate this operation; is that right?

19 A. No, no.

20 Q. Colonel Basara --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, I don't understand the answer. No, it

22 is not right; no, I did not co-ordinate?

23 MR. TRALDI:

24 Q. Your answer is no, you didn't co-ordinate with General Talic; is

25 that right?

Page 34650

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. Colonel Basara, the commander of the 6th Brigade, would have

3 reported to General Talic on the operation, while Colonel Samardzija

4 would have reported to you; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, if we could have P7331, page 270. This will be another

7 portion of your interview.

8 As it comes up, you and General Talic would both report to

9 General Mladic about this operation; right?

10 A. We reported about everything what happened in the 2nd Krajina

11 Corps that day. Not only about that operation.

12 Q. Now, you'd been shown this same document and here at line 12, you

13 were asked: "Okay. Would you have to co-ordinate with General Talic for

14 this particular operation?"

15 And your answer was: "Yes. The representative of the

16 1st Krajina Corps which the corps had appointed the 6th Light Infantry

17 Brigade, Light Brigade and the 1st Krajina Corps Command ordered the

18 6th Brigade to participate in this operation. And then -- and the

19 commander of the 6th Brigade and Samardzija met and planned together this

20 operation."

21 Do you stand by that portion of your interview as truthful and

22 accurate?

23 A. The part you just read out is accurate.

24 Q. Now, the Chamber has received evidence in Colonel Samardzija's

25 order that he ordered the mopping up of terrain including Hripavci and

Page 34651

1 Krasulje. The Chamber has received evidence that two days later, the

2 Kljuc SJB had a list of 103 persons who were detained mostly from

3 Hripavci and Krasulje that were being held by the Kljuc police. The

4 prisoners were immediately or the prisoners were first given over to the

5 Kljuc police; right?

6 A. I am not aware of that.

7 Q. The document, the list by the Kljuc police, reflecting 103

8 prisoners that's P3755, the Chamber has received evidence - P218 - that

9 103 prisoners from Kljuc were then transported to Manjaca on the 27th of

10 June, 1992.

11 When you've said earlier in the your testimony that prisoners

12 from the 2nd Krajina Corps would at times be transported to Banja Luka,

13 you've been referring to Manjaca camp; right?

14 A. Probably to a place where they were grouped in Banja Luka. I

15 don't know whether it was Manjaca or something else.

16 Q. Now, the Chamber has received evidence, P220, that when the

17 processing of those prisoners at Manjaca was completed, the 1st Krajina

18 Corps's security organ was informed that processing prisoners from Kljuc

19 was hard because: "They're being brought in massively and in large

20 quantities. No selections that been made. They're bringing in those who

21 shouldn't be treated as prisoners of war because they've been picked up

22 from their homes and off their fields."

23 Now that's what happened during these mopping-up operations by

24 the 6th and 17th Brigades. People were picked up in their homes and on

25 their fields and taken away to be treated as prisoners, even though there

Page 34652

1 was no legal basis to do so; right?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please answer the question, Witness.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no question.

4 JUDGE ORIE: There was a question, but Mr. Traldi will be happy

5 to repeat it.

6 MR. TRALDI:

7 Q. What happened during these operations by the 6th and 17th

8 brigades --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you have complained about being

10 interrupted. Would you refrain from interrupting yourself?

11 MR. TRALDI:

12 Q. What happened during these operations by the 6th and 17th

13 Brigades is that people were picked up in their homes and on their fields

14 and taken away to be treated as prisoners even though there was no legal

15 basis to do so. That's the truth; right?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. So prisoners taken by a brigade in your corps during operations

18 you were aware of, you have no idea as you sit there today more than 20

19 years later whether there was any basis to hold them as prisoners; is

20 that right?

21 A. I am not familiar with that situation.

22 Q. I'm going to turn briefly to another topic.

23 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P5186.

24 Q. You testified yesterday at transcript page 34596 that you did not

25 recall whether Bihac was declared a safe area. This is a letter from

Page 34653

1 UNPROFOR to General Mladic expressing "grave concern at the extremely

2 serious current situation in the SAFE AREA of BIHAC."

3 Does this refresh your recollection as to whether Bihac was

4 declared a safe area?

5 A. I don't remember that it was declared a safe area because there

6 was constant engagement from Bihac of the 2nd Krajina Corps. It was done

7 from the 27th of June Barracks.

8 Q. And do you also not remember having allegations relayed to you

9 of -- that your forces, 2nd Krajina Corps, were involved in "the

10 unacceptable deliberate destruction of houses and the shelling of parts

11 of Bihac city itself"?

12 A. I wasn't able to hear the question.

13 Q. Do you remember having allegations relayed to you that your

14 forces, the 2nd Krajina Corps, were involved in "the unacceptable

15 deliberate destruction of houses and the shelling of parts of Bihac city

16 itself"?

17 Yes or no?

18 A. The units at positions facing Bihac opened fire at those

19 positions that they were fired from, from within the town.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness. Witness, I'm -- have to interrupt you.

21 The question was not what happened; but the question was whether you

22 remember that allegations were relayed to you that this happened. So

23 apart from whether it happened, but did you receive such allegations?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was there, and I know what was

25 going on.

Page 34654

1 MR. TRALDI:

2 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you. For the moment what I'm asking

3 first is: We see this letter is sent to General Mladic. Were these

4 allegations ever relayed to you by the Main Staff of the VRS?

5 A. I don't recall having received a letter like this.

6 Q. So I'd put to you that your forces were, in fact, engaged in

7 deliberate destruction of civilian houses in and around Bihac. That's

8 the truth, isn't it?

9 A. It is not. One cannot say that it was deliberate. It was a

10 response to the fire coming from that direction.

11 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 03447.

12 Q. This is a letter two days later. This time sent to

13 President Karadzic. And I apologise we don't have a translation

14 uploaded. We read here at the end of the first sentence about reports of

15 deliberate and systematic targeting and destruction of civilian houses by

16 Serb forces in the areas of Bosanska Krupa, Otoko, Dornja, Pokoj and

17 Bihac. As of this time, the 3rd of March, 1994, those areas were within

18 your area of responsibility; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you did not, again, receive any information from the

21 Main Staff that these allegations had been made to the Bosnian Serb

22 leadership?

23 A. No.

24 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that this document be marked

25 for identification pending a translation.

Page 34655

1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number would be P7337.

3 JUDGE ORIE: P7337 is marked for identification.

4 Next time if you introduce a letter to a witness where there's no

5 translation you should at least explain to the witness whose letter it

6 was, addressed to whom, that is. But since the witness testified that

7 there were no allegations, you said to whom it was addressed, but I don't

8 think -- you say it was an UNPROFOR letter or ...

9 MR. TRALDI: I didn't, and I'll make sure to next time,

10 Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

12 MR. TRALDI:

13 Q. Sir, as corps commander you agree you were responsible for the

14 forces under your command; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And, for instance, you received instructions from the Main Staff

17 on the criteria for criminal punishment for soldiers; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Those instructions said, among other things, that if you don't

20 properly deal with crimes by your subordinates, that crime is on their

21 commander too; right?

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The record does not show the witness's response to

23 your previous question, Mr. Traldi.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the commander finds about it and

25 doesn't do anything about it, then correct -- it is correct.

Page 34656

1 MR. TRALDI:

2 Q. And the military courts and the military prosecution, those were

3 under General Gvero's authority; right?

4 A. I suppose it was the case.

5 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32447.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 MR. TRALDI:

8 Q. Now, this is a dispatch from the Main Staff military prosecutor's

9 office on the institution of criminal proceedings against persons who

10 have not responded to the call-up or left units without authorisation.

11 If we can have page 5 in the English and 3 in the B/C/S, we see

12 General Gvero is issuing this to the military prosecutor's offices

13 attached to the 1st Krajina Corps, the SRK, the IBK and the

14 Herzegovina Corps. And we don't a mention of the military prosecutor's

15 office attached to the 2 KK because, in fact, the 1st Krajina Corps

16 military prosecutor's office had jurisdiction over the 2 KK; right?

17 A. That is correct. In the 2nd Krajina Corps, there was a lawyer

18 who worked for the needs of the 1st Krajina Corps in terms of what was

19 necessary regarding this issue.

20 Q. And General Gvero is directing that criminal proceedings be

21 instituted against people not responding to the call-up because the

22 military courts had jurisdiction over those subject to military

23 obligations; right?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. A number of your subordinates have been convicted of committing

Page 34657

1 crimes against humanity and war crimes against non-Serbs during the war

2 after the war in the courts of Bosnia-Herzegovina. You are aware of

3 that; right?

4 A. I'm not aware of that. Who are those officers or soldiers?

5 Q. Are you aware of Marko Adamovic's [sic] conviction for events at

6 Biljani?

7 A. I have never heard of him.

8 Q. Ratko Dronjak's conviction, the commander of Kamenica camp?

9 A. He was the prisoner warden and I wasn't aware that he was

10 sentenced. I know that there were proceedings instituted but I wasn't

11 aware that there was a conviction.

12 Q. And the Chamber has received the register of the Banja Luka

13 military court, Exhibit P3563. It reflects that none of your

14 subordinates were convicted for crimes against Muslims and Croats by the

15 Banja Luka military court during the war. You're aware of that; right?

16 A. This is the first I hear of it.

17 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I see it's a couple of minutes early

18 but for continuity I would suggest that we break now.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We could take a bit of an early break. Are you on

20 track as far as time is concerned, Mr. Traldi?

21 MR. TRALDI: I think I can be a bit more accurate after the

22 break. Mr. Stojanovic and I spoke this morning, and he'd asked that I

23 reserve the last 30 minutes for him, and I'm making an effort to do so.

24 I will organise myself during the break with that in mind.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, an effort is always something. At least, we

Page 34658

1 have to await the result but let's leave it to that.

2 We'll take a break and we resume at 25 minutes past 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.57 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: As usual, we'll start with verification of the

6 videolink.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, everything is

8 working fine.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Same is true for The Hague.

10 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

11 MR. TRALDI: Before I start, my speed of speech may have been off

12 but at temporary transcript page 35, I was recorded to inquire about

13 Marko Adamovic, and I'd intended to inquire about Marko Samardzija, and I

14 apologise for --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps you would put the question again to

16 the witness so that he can answer. It's also in the new version.

17 MR. TRALDI:

18 Q. Sir, just to complete the topic from before the break, are you

19 aware of Marko Samardzija's conviction for events at Biljani?

20 A. No.

21 Q. I am going to change topics now.

22 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P514.

23 Q. This is an order by General Mladic dated the 13th of April, 1994.

24 At point 1 we see he orders in pertinent part that: "UN

25 Military Observers and the members of UNPROFOR are to be accommodated in

Page 34659

1 appropriate premises outside of the facilities where they had been

2 stationed to date, that is, in the military facilities which are a

3 potential target of the NATO air force as per your choice," and then he

4 describes how they are to be secured.

5 Turning to the end of the document in both languages, we see it's

6 sent, among other things, to the command of the 2nd Krajina Corps. The

7 Chamber has received evidence, P587, that three days earlier, Mladic had

8 ordered the VRS to block UNPROFOR and humanitarian organisations' convoys

9 and bring in and secure the personnel.

10 Using detained people as human shields in this manner by

11 "stationing them in potential targets of air-strikes" is not legal, is

12 it?

13 A. In the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps, we did not have these men,

14 and it is certainly not legal.

15 Q. Sir, I'm asking you about it because you testified yesterday that

16 in all your encounters with General Mladic, you never received an illegal

17 order, either written or oral. Would you like now to correct that

18 testimony?

19 A. I wouldn't.

20 Q. And on that topic, that order we discussed yesterday that you

21 sent implementing General Mladic's order to send soldiers on leave

22 because they were Muslims or Croats -- were to send all soldiers who were

23 Muslims and Croats on leave, adopting measures like that, purely on the

24 basis of your subordinates' ethnicity, that wouldn't be legal either,

25 would it?

Page 34660

1 A. This is a war situation. I don't know whether it is legal or

2 not, but if he wanted to preserve their lives, his manner of acting was

3 excellent.

4 Q. Change topics again.

5 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P2003.

6 Q. And we see here on the left-hand side of the page in the B/C/S,

7 the decision on the strategic objectives for the Serbian people in Bosnia

8 and Herzegovina. I'm not going to go through them one by one, but can

9 you just take a look for a moment and then confirm for us that you were

10 aware of them during the war.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we zoom in a bit further.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 MR. TRALDI:

14 Q. Now, this is something you discussed in your interview. But how

15 did you become aware of these objectives?

16 A. When we had this briefing at the Main Staff, then I found out.

17 Q. Who listed the strategic objectives at that briefing?

18 A. They were written out, just like here, now.

19 Q. Let me ask slightly differently. Who provided the briefing on

20 them?

21 A. Well, General Mladic and Mr. Karadzic were the main speakers.

22 Q. And were the other corps commanders, as well as yourself, present

23 for this?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And these strategic objectives were both military and political

Page 34661

1 goals; right?

2 A. I don't know about the political ones, but the military ones,

3 yes.

4 Q. And General Mladic's orders would set out what your tasks were in

5 order to realise the strategic objectives; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. TRALDI: Could we have P1968.

8 Q. Now, this is Directive 4. Turning to page 4 in the English and

9 page 9 in the B/C/S, I'd ask you to just take a minute to look at the

10 tasks assigned to the 2nd Krajina Corps by this directive. It's on the

11 lower part of the page in the B/C/S.

12 And in its tasking to your corps, this directive implements the

13 strategic objectives; right?

14 A. Part of the strategic objectives.

15 Q. Which part?

16 A. Well, reaching the Una river.

17 Q. That's Objective 4, right, or part of Objective 4?

18 A. Yes, yes. Yes.

19 Q. And just like General Mladic is implementing the strategic

20 objectives by issuing an operational directive to you, you would have

21 implemented his directive by issuing an operational order to your

22 subordinate brigades; right?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. And the 2nd Krajina Corps implemented Directive 4 by launching

25 Operation Una-92; right?

Page 34662

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, can we have page 5 in the English and 11 in the B/C/S,

3 directing your attention to the Drina Corps's tasking, we see that the

4 Drina Corps is to defend Visegrad, the dam, Zvornik and the corridor, the

5 rest of its forces in the wider Podrinje region are to exhaust the enemy,

6 inflict the heaviest possible losses on them and force them to leave the

7 Birac, Zepa, and Gorazde areas with the Muslim population.

8 Now, this -- this tasking also implements the strategic

9 objectives; right?

10 A. I'm not familiar with this task of the Drina Corps.

11 Q. In fact, units of the 2nd Krajina Corps were deployed to the

12 Podrinje area to assist the Drina Corps in implementing this task,

13 weren't they?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now the Chamber has received evidence, P2242, that during those

16 operations, the Drina Corps commander, General Zivanovic, informed your

17 Chief of Staff, Colonel Vlaisavljevic, that he was in favour of

18 continuing with the burning of Muslim houses during those operations in

19 the Podrinje. I have two questions.

20 First: Why was he -- why would he have been relaying that

21 information if your units were not also taking part in the operations in

22 that area?

23 A. In that area, it did not participate. A unit participated in the

24 area of Milici in order to protect the mine. Not in other areas though.

25 When the defence of the Milici Brigade was threatened in the area of the

Page 34663

1 mine.

2 Q. Second question: Did Colonel Vlaisavljevic also relay to you the

3 information about the destruction of Muslim property - the burning of

4 their houses specifically - during these operations?

5 A. Never. We never talked about that. He never relayed that to me.

6 I never heard of that.

7 Q. Finally on this topic, to return to the first question I'd asked

8 you, I understand you testified you weren't familiar with this specific

9 tasking. Based on your knowledge of the strategic objectives, however,

10 you can tell that the tasking of the Drina Corps is also implementing

11 those objectives; right?

12 A. I wouldn't want to go into that now. I wouldn't want to give my

13 opinion.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're not asked about an opinion, but you

15 were asked, based on your knowledge of the strategic objectives, whether

16 you can tell that the tasking of the Drina Corps is also implementing

17 these objectives.

18 Was it or was it not?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let us assume that that was

20 the case?

21 MR. TRALDI:

22 Q. And we read, in pertinent part, in that tasking that the enemy

23 forces are supposed to be forced to leave with the civilian population.

24 Forcing the civilian population to leave, that's another illegal order;

25 right.

Page 34664

1 A. I don't know of that order.

2 Q. You know, based on your training, that ordering subordinate

3 forces to drive out the civilian population is illegal, don't you?

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. Misquote. Because

5 the words used was -- were "drive out the civilian population."

6 I would kindly ask my colleague to tell me where that is written

7 in the document that we have before us.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi --

9 MR. TRALDI: I'll phrase it very precisely.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

11 MR. TRALDI:

12 Q. Forcing the Muslim population to leave an area, ordering your

13 subordinate forces to do that is illegal; right?

14 A. I don't know of that order, and I cannot give my opinion whether

15 Mladic did write that or did not.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That's not the question, Witness.

17 Could you tell us whether, according to your knowledge of

18 international humanitarian law, as a professional -- professional

19 officer, whether forcing the Muslim population to leave an area and

20 ordering subordinate forces to do so, whether that is legal or illegal?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the

22 speaker.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat your answer. The interpreters did

24 not catch your words.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to international law,

Page 34665

1 that is not legal.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

3 MR. TRALDI:

4 Q. I'm done with this document, and I'm going to turn to the topic

5 of prisoners held by your corps.

6 Your corps had an exchange commission; right?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps, Mr. Traldi, you again ask a question

8 which you asked before, whether the witness would change his answer, that

9 no illegal orders were issued.

10 MR. TRALDI:

11 Q. Sir, I'll give you another opportunity to change your answer as

12 to whether General Mladic ever issued illegal orders. Would you like to

13 change that testimony now?

14 A. He never issued me an illegal order, and I wouldn't want to

15 change anything in respect of that.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'd like to take the witness back for a moment

17 to the questions that were put to you in relation to the document in

18 which orders were given that UN Military Observers and UNPROFOR members

19 were to be put in places where, that is, stationing them in potential

20 targets of air-strikes. You said: "That is not legal."

21 But you added: "In the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps, we did not

22 have these men."

23 Now, I'd like to take you back. That order that UN

24 Military Observers and UNPROFOR members were to be stationed in potential

25 targets of air-strikes, that order, you said, was illegal.

Page 34666

1 I have two questions. First: Were there any UN

2 Military Observers and were there any UNPROFOR members in your area of

3 responsibility?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not stationed, but sometimes

5 they --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the rest.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat. You said they were not

8 stationed but sometimes ...

9 Could you resume from there.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They would pass and go towards

11 Bihac as announced, and we would see them off to the border of the zone.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And --

14 JUDGE ORIE: So they were there from time to time?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Passed there.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In order to pass, you have to be somewhere.

17 My second question would be: Whether this order was addressed to

18 the 2nd Krajina Corps.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is what is written here.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have any reason to doubt that it was?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Why would I?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which means that you were issued an order in

23 rather general terms which, under circumstances, could have been

24 implemented, you received an order which was illegal.

25 I do not understand at this moment why you would not correct your

Page 34667

1 testimony that you never received an illegal order.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One needs to bear in mind what the

3 reason behind it was, what the reason for writing it was.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Does it make -- does that make it any less illegal?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You would say that stationing UNPROFOR and UN

7 Military Observers in locations which are potential targets of

8 air-strikes would become illegal [sic] if you had a good reason for that?

9 Would become any less illegal is, I think, what I said.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose they were stationed with

11 the forces of the VRS. So they were not separated.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That wasn't my --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The goal was --

14 JUDGE ORIE: That wasn't my question. The order clearly was to

15 station them in potential targets of air-strikes and whether there would

16 be any VRS members in that area or not, is that relevant for the

17 illegality of that order.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had no problem with that. I did

19 not implement the order, and I am not going to change what I had said

20 previously.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you were not asked whether you implemented any

22 illegal orders. You were asked whether you received any illegal orders.

23 Focussing on that, you would still not correct your testimony?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

Page 34668

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With regard to this issue.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that we are talking about this

3 issue.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

5 MR. TRALDI:

6 Q. Turning to prisoners. Your corps had an exchange commission;

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. It was led by an officer named Milan Ivancevic, wasn't it?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Under which organ of your corps did the exchange commission fall?

12 A. The political organ.

13 Q. Is that legal, morale and religious affairs?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And when your corps entered into an exchange agreement, the

16 Main Staff had to approve that; right?

17 A. The Main Staff was informed that there would be an exchange.

18 MR. TRALDI: Well, let's have 65 ter 32428.

19 Q. This is a document you issued the 13th of November, 1994 to the

20 Main Staff. What we see here as the English comes up is that you're

21 seeking -- you're urgently requesting the Main Staff's approval to enter

22 into negotiations about an exchange; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And that's because you needed the Main Staff's approval to do so;

25 right?

Page 34669

1 A. That is right.

2 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 32428.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number P7338.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

6 MR. TRALDI:

7 Q. Now, you were aware that some of the prisoners held by your

8 brigades were taken to do forced labour at the front lines; right?

9 A. No.

10 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 19091.

11 Q. Now, this is a daily combat report from the Command of the

12 11th Brigade sent to the Command of the 2nd Krajina Corps dated the

13 1st of July, 1992. And we see at the end of point 1 that a captured

14 enemy soldier had managed to escape while working on the entrenchment as

15 what is described as "our forward line of defence."

16 So you were, in fact, informed by your subordinate units that

17 they sent prisoners to do forced labour at the front lines; right?

18 A. If one looks at this, it seems to be the case.

19 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number P7339.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

23 Witness, you initially answered that you were not aware that some

24 of the prisoners held by your brigade were taken to do forced labour. If

25 we find elements in combat reports that this was the case, I would urge

Page 34670

1 you to be very clear in telling us whether you were not aware of it but

2 that it may have happened or that you were aware that it did not happen.

3 Could you specify in any future answer which is the case, because

4 it happened now a couple of times that looking at documents, we get

5 answers which are not exactly consistent with your initial answer.

6 Please proceed.

7 MR. TRALDI:

8 Q. I want to focus now on Kamenica which we discussed earlier.

9 Now Kamenica camp was just a beat-up old school with a barbed

10 wire fence around it; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I understand from your interview that you claim you never visited

13 Kamenica yourself; right?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. I understand you claim that you never asked anyone what was going

16 on there; is that right?

17 A. It was a prison. There was no need. The security organ was

18 competent and controlled it.

19 Q. Now, the Chamber has received evidence that you on at least one

20 occasion issued an order regarding the treatment of prisoners of war.

21 That's because you were responsible for the treatment of prisoners of war

22 in your area of responsibility; right?

23 A. Probably.

24 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P3996.

25 Q. Now, this is a report issued by your assistant commander for

Page 34671

1 information, Mladen Skenderija, on 5th of August. We see that, in

2 accordance with the London Agreement, he is writing that an

3 International Red Cross team and foreign journalists are visiting POW

4 camps. The visits are conducted by organisations of the government and

5 the team will be escorted by a representative of the army, a

6 Lieutenant-Colonel Savo Sokanovic and refers to a prisoner-of-war camp in

7 Drvar. Now that refers to Kamenica; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, while this bears Colonel Skenderija's name, of course, the

10 potential visit to Kamenica camp would have been discussed in the corps

11 command; right?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. So is it your evidence today -- well, sorry. Let me start that

14 question again.

15 As a matter of course, an event like this would have been

16 discussed in the corps command, including with you; right?

17 A. We did not discuss it. It was not on the agenda. It was done by

18 the morale organ. It was Colonel Skenderija at the time.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

20 A. In Kamenica --

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

22 A. There was a prison.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... for a moment, sir. I'll ask

24 you questions about the nature of Kamenica in a minute.

25 If you were informed by a member of your corps command you were

Page 34672

1 aware that a foreign journalist team, International Red Cross team might

2 visit a camp in your area of responsibility under your corps's security

3 organ, is it your evidence that under those circumstances you wouldn't

4 have asked, What are they going to find if they go there?

5 A. I probably would.

6 Q. And you never heard reports that people were abused or killed

7 there in your evidence; is that right?

8 A. I was never informed and I never heard that anyone was killed in

9 Kamenica.

10 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32448.

11 Q. Now, this time we don't have a translation into English yet. If

12 we can turn to the top of page 2 in the B/C/S, and this is a report

13 coming from the 1st Krajina Corps intelligence and security organ to the

14 VRS Main Staff dated the 5th of November, 1994.

15 Here at the top of page 2, do you agree with me that we see in

16 the first -- after the first hyphen, a report that Ratko Dronjak in

17 Kamenica and Drvar took out seven people at night, and they were never

18 seen again; is that right?

19 A. I don't see that? Uh-huh.

20 Q. Could you just read slowly beginning at the word "osoba" for us.

21 A. It's there.

22 Q. And just so we all have the exact text, can you read it aloud,

23 please.

24 A. "A person from the Red Cross says that Ratko Dronjak was in

25 Kamenica camp in Drvar and killed seven people from Vojic near Kljuc

Page 34673

1 during one night and drove away with them in an unknown direction."

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the very

3 last words of the witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the very last words, Witness.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never heard of this case.

6 MR. TRALDI:

7 Q. So you were never ordered to investigate it, could you?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first have the complete answer. Or was

9 that -- were those the last words that you read.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. "Never heard of this case." Were you reading

12 the last few words, or were you commenting on what has happened?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is my comment. I am not

14 familiar with this case.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No, I -- I do understand that. But you were invited

16 to read the last few words again from the paragraph Mr. Traldi invited

17 you to read because the last few words were not caught by the

18 interpreters.

19 So could you perhaps resume from where you said: "...during one

20 night and drove away with them in an unknown direction," and what then

21 follows? Would you please read that aloud for us?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "And he drove away with them in an

23 unknown direction."

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

25 MR. TRALDI:

Page 34674

1 Q. You say you've never heard of that so you were never clearly

2 ordered to investigate it; right?

3 A. That's right.

4 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that this document be marked

5 for identification.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 32448 receives number P7340.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.

9 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32455.

10 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that document, I would have

11 one additional question for you, Witness.

12 The previous document we looked at, I don't know whether you

13 remember which one it was. Otherwise I'll ... that was the document in

14 which possible visits of the Red Cross were announced.

15 Do you remember that document?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, were there any women and/or children kept in

18 conditions which would be similar to being detained?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not familiar with that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have any explanation as why there was

21 any concern that these visits would be exploited and that a special focus

22 would be on women and children which suggests that at least women and

23 children must have been in places where the Red Cross would visit?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't concerned with the Red

25 Cross coming to visit the prison in Kamenica. I was actually glad.

Page 34675

1 JUDGE ORIE: But the document written by one of your subordinates

2 expressed concern about those visits to be exploited and abused.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not register who the person

4 who expressed this concern was.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the document was -- and -- was -- is signed by

6 or at least is issued by Colonel Mladen Skenderija. You had a look at it

7 a second ago. If need be, we can go back to it.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You'd like to go back to it?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yeah -- well, yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Concern is expressed there that, especially in

12 relation to women and children, that the visits might be exploited. Do

13 you have any explanation for that, if you were not aware in any way that

14 women and children were kept in conditions similar to detention?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I hear about

16 that, from you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. TRALDI:

20 Q. Now, sir, this is the Trial Judgement in Ratko Dronjak's case,

21 the warden. And if we can turn to page 45 in B/C/S and 13 in the English

22 which represents just the parts we've had translated. We see a section

23 headed, "Non-contentious facts." And if we could turn to page 15 in the

24 English, 47 in the B/C/S, paragraph 206, we read, based on Ratko

25 Dronjak's testimony, that your corps's exchange commission headed by

Page 34676

1 Milan Ivancevic was directly linked to the prison and knew who was inside

2 at any time.

3 So is it your evidence, as you've just told the Presiding Judge,

4 that you'd never heard about the types of people who were being held

5 there even though your subordinates on the exchange commission knew?

6 A. I stand by that.

7 Q. Turning to page 21 in the English, 57 in the B/C/S we read in

8 paragraph 246 that a witness named Dragan Rodic who, as other evidence in

9 the judgement or portions of the judgement reflect, was a shift commander

10 at Kamenica who pled guilty that he stated that the detained civilians

11 were detained solely for the fact that they were not Serbs.

12 Did you ever ask any of your subordinates in the security organ

13 why the people at Kamenica were being detained there?

14 A. I did not ask. Because I was not involved in it. I was at the

15 front line taking care of defending our area of responsibility. I didn't

16 ask it of anyone.

17 Q. Your command post was in Drvar; right?

18 A. For a while, but it was in Ostrelj, between Drvar and Petrovac

19 most of the time.

20 Q. Kamenica is also in Drvar; right?

21 A. Well, yes.

22 Q. About how far apart were they?

23 A. I think 2 or 3 kilometres. Not more. It is near Drvar.

24 Q. So, when you said a moment ago you were at the front line taking

25 care of defending our area of responsibility, in fact, you were no more

Page 34677

1 than 2 or 3 kilometres away from the camp; right?

2 A. It was in Drvar at first but then we moved to Ostrelj rather soon

3 afterwards which is much further away.

4 Q. Can we have page 4 of this judgement?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi before we continue I object to the way

6 you -- you presented the evidence of the witness where you said that he

7 had answered my question, that he never heard about the types of people

8 who were being held. Because I only asked about women and children. And

9 since the follow-up of your question is about civilians that could

10 include men as well, so that is not fair to the witness.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. TRALDI: I take the point, Your Honour.

13 Can we have page 4 in both languages, please.

14 Q. Now, I'm going to focus on section 2 of the judgement. This

15 refers in paragraphs 2 -- sorry, paragraphs 1 and 2, subparagraphs 1 and

16 2, to persons who were killed or who were detained there and then killed.

17 And I'm just going ask to you focus on three names. Under point 2.1,

18 Kalmin Kalic and Enver Cehic. And under 2.2, Kemal Sepic.

19 Do you see those names?

20 A. I see it.

21 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32449.

22 Q. This is the Bihac cantonal court report on the exhumation,

23 autopsy, and identification of bodies from the mass grave Jama Golubnjaca

24 in Drvar and the report then refers to 19 male bodies that were found, of

25 which three were identified. I see we're waiting to release ...

Page 34678

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, there's no English translation

2 uploaded.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, do you have an English translation

4 before I ask whether you uploaded it.

5 MR. TRALDI: We do. And we've uploaded it, and we're --

6 JUDGE ORIE: And it's released soon?

7 MR. TRALDI: [Microphone not activated]

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 MR. TRALDI:

10 Q. While it comes up, sir, we'd discussed -- yesterday on direct you

11 testified that the army had nothing to do with the departure of civilians

12 from your area of responsibility. Is it your evidence that the detention

13 of civilians in these conditions at Kamenica, just because they were not

14 Serbs, had nothing to do with their departure from the 2nd Krajina Corps'

15 area of responsibility?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And Your Honours, apparently I had misspoken a moment ago and we

18 don't have the translation. I'd looked at the screen and seen something

19 that apparently was not what I thought I was looking at.

20 But, sir, I can tell you that in this report, in this exhumation

21 report, we'll see again the names of Kalmin Kalic, Enver Cehic,

22 Kemal Sepic are you aware that people detained at Kamenica have been,

23 after the war, exhumed from mass graves also in area of responsibility?

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Since we have the B/C/S version on the screen you

25 could direct the attention of the witness to that portion of the

Page 34679

1 document.

2 MR. TRALDI: I'll do so in a moment but I'd ask for an answer to

3 my question.

4 A. Could you please repeat your question.

5 Q. Are you aware that people detained at Kamenica have been, after

6 the war, exhumed from mass graves in your area of responsibility. Yes or

7 no?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. And I'll return -- my notes are incomplete as to the page

10 numbers but we've just fixed that. Can we have page 4.

11 And we see at the bottom of the page, number 3, Kemal Sepic.

12 Turning to page 5, we see at name 8, Enver Cehic; and name 15,

13 Kalmin Kalic.

14 So the truth is people detained in your corps' camps were exhumed

15 from mass graves in your area of responsibility after the war; right?

16 A. Maybe they were exchanged.

17 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 01060.

18 Q. As it comes up, Major Mitrovic, Ratko Dronjak's superior, was

19 promoted to lieutenant-colonel by General Mladic in January 1993; right?

20 A. Probably.

21 MR. TRALDI: I tender this document.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number P7341.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

25 MR. TRALDI: And can we have 65 ter 32432.

Page 34680

1 Q. And what we see here dated the 12th of October, 1992 is a

2 certification by General Mladic that you had also been promoted; right?

3 A. I was promoted on the 16th of December, 1992. I was promoted to

4 the rank of Major-General.

5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 32432.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number P7342.

8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you just --

10 JUDGE ORIE: P7342 is admitted into evidence.

11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, that completes my questions about

12 Kamenica --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm just --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you would wait for a second, witness.

15 This completes Kamenica, I do understand.

16 MR. TRALDI: And regarding any portions of the judgement or the

17 exhumation report, I'll speak with Mr. Stojanovic and see if there are

18 any matters in dispute. We've uploaded other proof of death materials

19 for the victims I mentioned but I anticipate it won't be necessary to

20 tender all of that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: And in view of the evidence of the witness that they

22 may have been exchanged, are there autopsy reports indicating cause of

23 death?

24 MR. TRALDI: I'd have to go through them and I'll do so at the

25 break.

Page 34681

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

2 Witness, you wanted to add something. You have an opportunity to

3 do so now. If it is relevant as an answer to one of the questions that

4 was put to you. So not to raise any issues that you consider to be

5 interesting but in direct relation to questions that you were put to you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm reading this certificate and it

7 is written here that I'm being promoted --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The sound has gone bad

9 again.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could --

11 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we have some problems with the quality of

13 the sound. Could you -- if you were reading from the document or drawing

14 our attention to parts of it, could you do it again.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is written here is

16 certificate, concerning my promotion in the month of October. A general

17 is promoted to that rank by the Supreme Commander by way of a decree and

18 I received that decree on 16th of December, 1992. The decree promoting

19 me to the rank of Major-General.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I think most important is that you were promoted

21 rather than exactly -- the exact date of it.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

23 MR. TRALDI:

24 Q. I'm going to turn back to Kljuc municipality now, sir. And along

25 with the 17th Brigade, you had an engineering regiment, the

Page 34682

1 2nd Engineering Regiment, based at Laniste in Kljuc municipality; right.

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. That regiment answered directly to you in the corps Command Staff

4 so that the 17th Brigade's commander would have to call you to request

5 assistance from the unit; right?

6 A. That's the way it's supposed to be.

7 Q. That's the way it was; right?

8 A. I don't know which case you're referring to.

9 Q. In principle, the brigade commander in Kljuc had to call the

10 corps command to request assistance from the 2nd Engineering Regiment;

11 right?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. And the engineering regiment had standard engineering equipment:

14 Bulldozers, excavators, that type of equipment; right?

15 A. That's correct too.

16 Q. Okay.

17 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P520. And I'm going to turn to Biljani

18 now.

19 Q. Now, this is an order by Colonel Drago Samardzija dated the

20 9th of July, 1992. At that point he was the commander of the

21 17th Brigade; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Directing your attention to point 2a, assignments for units, we

24 read that this operation is going to be carried out by the 2nd Battalion

25 of the 17th Brigade reinforced with the reconnaissance platoon, a

Page 34683

1 military police squad, and a police platoon. And we see above that it

2 will start at 0500 hours on the 10th of July. Now you were aware of that

3 operation; right?

4 A. No.

5 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32422 -- sorry P7331. Page 272.

6 Q. Now we see you're shown this order dated the 9th of July. We see

7 you read it out. Refers to operations 0500 hours on the 10th of July,

8 1992. If we could scroll down, we see you're asked: "This is an

9 operation that you would be monitoring?

10 And you answer: "Yes."

11 And if we turn to the next page, the beginning of your answer is

12 recorded as indiscernible but you say definitely with the knowledge of

13 the corps command. You're asked: "Samardzija is not just going to plan

14 an order and just do it without letting you know, is he?"

15 And you say: "Correct."

16 Now, first, do you stand by those portions of your OTP interview

17 in 2004 as truthful and accurate?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. Let's have page 276.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, does the witness not remember that he

21 stands by this?

22 MR. TRALDI:

23 Q. Sir, do I understand your answer to mean whether you no longer

24 remember that the portions I read back to you are accurate. Is that

25 right?

Page 34684

1 A. I don't remember that I had said that. I see this in a foreign

2 language and you're just reading that, and that does not have to be

3 correct necessarily.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if you say that's not what I said, then

5 we'll verify on the basis of the audio whether the recording is accurate,

6 yes or no.

7 If you say, I don't remember, then it leaves it open whether you

8 said it or not. But if you say, I definitely did not say this, then

9 we'll have it verified.

10 What is your position?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. I don't

12 remember.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I leave it to the Defence whether they

14 will insist with the Prosecution on further verification.

15 MR. TRALDI: Let's have page 276 of your interview for the moment

16 and I'll --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could I add one sentence.

18 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If one line is indiscernible which may really affect

20 the meaning of that sentence, then I think you should have excluded that

21 from asking the witness whether he stands by it or not because depending

22 what is indiscernible it could be anything.

23 Please proceed.

24 MR. TRALDI:

25 Q. Beginning at line 16 -- actually, let's start just above that.

Page 34685

1 Line 12, you're being asked about the same order. You say that, "Colonel

2 Samardzija sent it to his subordinate units. He sent that to his units.

3 He didn't send that to me. I never saw this because he had received a

4 task according to that decision from me, and then he devises his own

5 order."

6 So first question: Clearly at the time you recalled enough to

7 opine on the process of who this order was communicated to; right?

8 A. It certainly wasn't sent to me.

9 Q. Do you stand today by your statement in the interview that he

10 issued this order based on a task he'd received from you?

11 A. Probably.

12 Q. Below that we see you're asked: "Are you monitoring his combat

13 operations on the 10th of July, 1992? What if he needs help?"

14 And you answer: "My Chief of Staff was monitoring at this time."

15 Now does that refresh your recollection as to whether you were

16 aware of the operation that Colonel Samardzija had ordered?

17 A. I was not monitoring that operation. Maybe - I don't remember -

18 the Chief of Staff was.

19 Q. Do you recall saying that in your interview, that your Chief of

20 Staff, Colonel Vlaisavljevic, was monitoring the operation?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 MR. TRALDI: Can we have page 277.

23 Q. Now here you mention Colonel Vlaisavljevic, your Chief of Staff.

24 You were asked where he was on the 10th of July, 1992. You say you think

25 he was at Laniste. You say there was a barracks in Laniste. You were

Page 34686

1 asked if there's a barracks in Laniste, correct? You say: Yes, the

2 commander of the 2nd Engineering Regiment. You say -- you were asked

3 well, he had coms with you, he had communications with you, when

4 necessary. And you answer yes.

5 Do you stand today by your statements in your interview that

6 Colonel Vlaisavljevic was present in Laniste during the operation

7 Colonel Samardzija ordered in the document we just saw and had

8 communications with you?

9 A. Probably.

10 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter -- sorry. Can we have the same

11 document, page 281. And we see -- sorry, this page may be inaccurate in

12 my notes.

13 Q. Let me just ask the question. After this operation was

14 completed, the operation in Biljani, do you recall being told that it had

15 been successful?

16 A. I do not recall.

17 Q. Let's scroll down to the bottom of the page, Mr. Grady asks you:

18 "Now, general, I want to know what you were told on the 10th of July,

19 1992, about what happened in Biljani in the municipality of Kljuc during

20 Samardzija's combat operation."

21 You respond: "Just that the task was carried out and that the

22 territory had been liberated."

23 Does that refresh your recollection as to, first, whether you

24 were aware of this operation; and, second, whether you were told it had

25 been carried out successfully?

Page 34687

1 A. That was no operation. That was a tactical task. Probably what

2 I said then is true.

3 Q. So we agree you were aware of this tactical task as it was being

4 carried out; right?

5 A. Probably.

6 MR. TRALDI: Can we have page 275 of the same interview.

7 Q. Now you had been shown the tasking of the Sanica police platoon.

8 Mr Grady says: "So again, this is another situation where the Kljuc SJB

9 is involved in a combat operation." And you respond: "It's placed under

10 the command of the brigade commander, yes."

11 Do you stand today by your statement at the time that the Kljuc

12 SJB was under the command of Brigade Commander Samardzija during this

13 operation?

14 A. Probably. I don't remember.

15 Q. Now, this Chamber has received evidence from a number of

16 witnesses that well over 100 people detained at the Biljani school were

17 murdered on or about the 10th of July, 1992. You're aware of that today

18 as you sit there; right?

19 A. No.

20 Q. This Chamber has received evidence from a Defence witness, named

21 Nikola Vracar that the massacre was the talk of the town. The Chamber

22 has received evidence from a witness named Bertie Weiss that

23 Marko Samardzija told him he had contacted his commander among others to

24 tell him what was about to happen. It's your evidence that it was the

25 talk of the town in your area of responsibility during an operation you

Page 34688

1 were aware of that your Chief of Staff with whom you had a good

2 relationship as you testified early was monitoring and in the last 23

3 years, you yourself have not become aware of this massacre. Is that your

4 evidence today?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The sound has gone bad

6 again.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer because the

8 quality of the sound was bad.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not know anything about that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question was whether you know it now,

11 not whether you knew it then, but whether you know it now.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know it now either.

13 MR. TRALDI:

14 Q. The Chamber has also received evidence that the people killed

15 were exhumed from a site less than a kilometre from the Laniste barracks

16 where that engineering regiment that answered to your corps was based.

17 It's your evidence that you were not aware of the mass burial of the

18 victims of this massacre.

19 A. I was not.

20 Q. An operation like that would have required that engineering

21 regiment to use resources, use its vehicles, use gasoline; right?

22 A. Probably.

23 Q. That would have been reflected in reports it was sending to the

24 logistics organ of the corps, wouldn't it?

25 A. Yes, but that was not in the report.

Page 34689

1 Q. So you weren't aware of this massacre that was the talk of the

2 town but you're testifying today that you're confident that the reports

3 the engineering regiment send up did not reflect increased activity

4 during the period when these victims would haven buried.

5 Have I understood your evidence correctly?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. Sir, I put to you your evidence about this is not credible and

8 you could not have avoided knowing about this massacre committed by your

9 soldiers and others subordinated to them during it. That's the truth;

10 right?

11 A. That is your opinion. You're entitled to it.

12 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I know we are on a slightly unusual

13 schedule today, or slightly different than normal. I think we're close

14 to the time for the break. I have a relatively brief period remaining

15 for myself.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And what is a relatively brief period?

17 MR. TRALDI: Certainly no more than ten minutes, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: No more than ten minutes. Then we'll take the break

19 now. We'll resume at 25 minutes past 1.00. And then, Mr. Stojanovic,

20 the remaining time is, as you have discussed it with Mr. Traldi; at least

21 there's a little bit more perhaps for any final questions by Mr. Traldi.

22 We take the break.

23 Witness, we'd like to see you back in half an hour.

24 We take a break, and we resume at 25 minutes past 1.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.54 p.m.

Page 34690

1 --- On resuming at 1.27 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We check again whether the videolink is functioning

3 well.

4 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, it is, thank you,

5 Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

7 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

8 MR. TRALDI: Just briefly to provide the Chamber the information

9 it had requested before the break, the information as to cause of death

10 is actually in the exhumation report that I used and attributes for all

11 of the individuals violent deaths, says almost all in civilian clothes,

12 with two wearing items of clothing that may be considered as military

13 garb. Those two are not any of the three I referred to by name. It also

14 saying that some of the individuals were blindfolded and doesn't identify

15 those by name.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, and they were -- the mass grave was in

17 the territory controlled by Republika Srpska or is that, just a location.

18 I invite the parties to agree on that.

19 MR. TRALDI: Just so we understand what we're being asked to

20 agree on, at what time in history?

21 JUDGE ORIE: At that time.

22 MR. TRALDI: Of the exhumation or of the war?

23 JUDGE ORIE: The relevance of the question may be to fully

24 appreciate the suggestion - it wasn't more than that - by the witness

25 that it may have been that they had been exchanged, which would make it

Page 34691

1 unlikely that if they died after that, they would then nevertheless be

2 found in a mass grave which is located not then in Federation-controlled

3 area. I mean, in order to assess the credibility of -- or the

4 possibilities in that respect, it may be important to know whether the

5 mass grave was in territory and controlled by whom at the time.

6 MR. TRALDI: I apologise for not immediately understanding that,

7 Your Honour. Thank you for the clarification.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

9 MR. TRALDI:

10 Q. Sir, I want to turn finally to the departure of Muslims from your

11 area of responsibility, both Muslims and Croats.

12 Now, you testified yesterday at transcript page 34592 that most

13 of the non-Serbs had left before the creation of the 2nd Krajina Corps.

14 In fact, you know thousands and thousands of non-Serbs left your area of

15 responsibility during your time as corps commander; right?

16 A. I'm not familiar with a figure --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The figure wasn't as

18 high.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some of them did leave though.

20 MR. TRALDI:

21 Q. Well, for instance, you were aware of convoys of thousands of

22 Muslims out of Kljuc municipality during your time as corps commander;

23 right?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Let's have P355, page 26, in the English and the B/C/S

Page 34692

1 transcript. As it comes up, this will be one of General Mladic's

2 notebooks from the war.

3 These are a portion of his notes of a meeting he attended on the

4 11th of September, 1992. We see the president of Jovo Banjac -- sorry

5 the president of Kljuc municipality, Jovo Banjac's name. We see that.

6 Mladic records him as giving thanks to the 30th KD commander and

7 Colonel Vlaisavljevic. That's your Chief of Staff; right.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. We see that Mr. Banjac is recorded as informing General Mladic

10 there were 17.000 Muslims and now there are 5.000. And 1500 left today.

11 Like General Mladic you were aware that more than a thousand

12 Muslims left Kljuc in September 1992, weren't you?

13 A. I didn't know about that.

14 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P356, page 123 in the English and the

15 B/C/S transcript.

16 Q. This will be another of General Mladic's notebooks from the war,

17 and we're going to see an entry on the 4th of November, 1992, 1800 hours,

18 a meeting with the representatives of the authorities of Petrovac, Drvar,

19 Kljuc.

20 If we turn to page 125, we'll see references to

21 Colonel Vlaisavljevic and to you. You and your Chief of Staff both

22 attended this meeting; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Turning back to page 124, we see at the bottom Vinko Kondic from

25 the MUP in Kljuc is recorded to say that: "About 2.000 Muslims are now

Page 34693

1 living in Kljuc municipality, and there used to be 17,5."

2 It's a reference again to there used to be being 17.000 or more

3 than 17.000 Muslims in Kljuc municipality; right?

4 A. That's what it says.

5 Q. And so we see here you and General Mladic together meeting this

6 time with the civilian police chief and being informed of the massive

7 exodus of Muslims from Kljuc, one of the municipalities in your area of

8 responsibility; right?

9 A. But that means from the beginning of the conflict in all

10 likelihood, not as of the moment when the corps was formed.

11 Q. Now you attended meetings of the Una-Sana region, didn't you?

12 A. When?

13 Q. In June 1992.

14 A. I don't recall that.

15 MR. TRALDI: Could we have D1027, MFI.

16 Q. Now this is a record of the second inter-municipality talks at

17 Korcanica on 14th June 1992. At number 19 on this list, we see you;

18 right?

19 A. My name can be found there.

20 Q. And you attended this meeting, didn't you?

21 A. Can you tell me the date?

22 Q. 14th of June, 1992.

23 A. I don't remember. Probably, yes.

24 Q. And you remember you attended at least some meetings of this

25 regional group; right?

Page 34694

1 A. I attended several meetings, but I don't know what their names

2 were or what groups were there and so on.

3 Q. Now the Chamber has received evidence that at the previous

4 meeting, this group took the position that Muslims and Croats had to be

5 moved out of their regions until their population was reduced to a level

6 where Serb authority could be maintained. A previous meeting on

7 7 June 1992 after the creation of your corps.

8 Now, you were aware that there were discussions and efforts to

9 reduces the Muslim population of municipalities in your area of

10 responsibility during your time as corps commander; right?

11 A. It might be the case.

12 Q. The Chamber has received evidence, P3853, that as of early 1995,

13 the Banja Luka CSB was a ware that in every municipality in your area of

14 responsibility, including the ones that had been majority Muslim before

15 the war, the population had become at least 93 per cent Serb. You were

16 aware of that too, weren't you?

17 A. I'm not aware of that percentage.

18 Q. You're certainly aware that the ethnic composition of the

19 population in the municipalities in your area of responsibility was

20 overwhelmingly Serb by the end of your time as corps commander; right?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Now, you testified yesterday that the VRS didn't have anything to

23 do with it and you didn't think there were any situations where the front

24 line had to be opened to facilitate an exchange of population. To get,

25 for instance, from Petrovac to Split on a convoy, someone would have to

Page 34695

1 get through the front line; right?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. To get from Kljuc to Travnik, somebody would have to cross the

4 front line; right?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. That would require --

7 THE INTERPRETER: We did not hear the witness.

8 MR. TRALDI:

9 Q. Can you repeat the last thing you said, sir.

10 A. I said that politicians were supposed to reach agreement and the

11 military would let them go through whatever route they were to take.

12 Q. So now you do recall occasions when the VRS would open the front

13 line to facilitate these exchanges.

14 A. They did not go through my area but they did go outside of it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, may I remind you of your own words,

16 certainly not more than ten minutes.

17 MR. TRALDI: Yes --

18 JUDGE ORIE: That was approximately -- we started some 14, 15

19 minutes ago.

20 Could you please wind up because Mr. Stojanovic, I think, you

21 agreed that would you have half an hour and then it's --

22 MR. TRALDI: I am, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

24 MR. TRALDI:

25 Q. Sir, you testified that the VRS didn't have anything to do with