150506ED

Page 35164

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we're waiting for the witness, I just want

3 the record to show that the accused is not with us today as a result of

4 an order that was made yesterday afternoon just before we adjourned for

5 the day.

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. Trkulja.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to remind you that you're still bound by the

10 oath, the declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell

11 the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth. Understand

12 that?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, I understand that.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Madam Hasan will proceed with

15 her cross-examination.

16 Thank you, Madam Hasan.

17 WITNESS: NEDELJKO TRKULJA [Resumed]

18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Cross-examination by Ms. Hasan: [Continued]

20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Trkulja.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. You testified yesterday, both in direct and cross-examination,

23 that when you had arrived in Zvornik in the area of Baljkovica that there

24 had not been a break through, that the front line had not broken through,

25 that Obrenovic had told you there had been fighting at the front of

Page 35165

1 Crni Vrh but that he managed to push back the enemy. And I'm referring

2 to transcript pages 35100 and 35103. And that it was the following day,

3 so you arrive on the 17th, and on the 18th, that is when the column, the

4 Muslims who you say were in a ditch, were passing through. And at

5 transcript 35144, lines 6 to 9, you testified you had no idea there was a

6 column, no idea, and then you later told us that Sladojevic was wrong

7 when he said he knew before, when he left Crna Rijeka, that the Muslims

8 had broken through the lines.

9 And I'd like to take you to a 15 July 1995 interim combat report

10 from the Drina Corps.

11 MS. HASAN: And this is 65 ter 4137. If we could have that

12 displayed.

13 Q. And you will see that this is a report from Krstic ...

14 MS. HASAN: And if we turn briefly in the English to the second

15 page so we can see the stamp. The document was received at 1945 hours

16 and processed at 2010 hours. Now, this interim combat report - and we

17 can revert back to page 1 in the English - is to the Main Staff.

18 Q. And I'm just going to read to you just the second paragraph:

19 "At about 0440 hours on 15 July ... the enemy started a heavy

20 artillery attack on the 4th, 6th and 7th Infantry Battalion line of

21 defence.

22 "The attack was carried out at about 0530 hours, but the enemy

23 continued with short intervals of artillery and infantry fire. Three

24 soldiers were wounded in these attacks."

25 I'm going to skip down to the next paragraph:

Page 35166

1 "During the transport towards Zvornik, the Turkish forces pulling

2 out from Srebrenica towards Tuzla in the Planinica village sector opened

3 fire on an ambulance and killed the driver Milos Tesic and paramedic

4 Nenad Stevic."

5 It goes on in the last major paragraph there:

6 "The units are carrying out the blockade and destruction of

7 Muslim forces which are pulling out of Srebrenica towards Tuzla."

8 Now you were at the Main Staff on the evening of the 15th of

9 July, weren't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So you would have received and reviewed this report that came in

12 from General Krstic.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So, in fact, on the night of the 15th, you were aware that there

15 was -- there were Muslim forces moving in the direction of Tuzla; isn't

16 that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And contrary to what you had said, which was nobody was blocking,

19 nobody forbid the Muslim formations to exit in the direction of Tuzla,

20 which you said at transcript page 35156 to -- line 25, to 35157, line 2,

21 in fact, the forces -- the Muslim forces were not free to pass to

22 Bosnian-held territory. As Krstic says, they were blocking them and

23 destroying them; isn't that right?

24 A. Madam Prosecutor, that is put in very general terms. First of

25 all, these were groups. It wasn't one axis. I gave my statement only

Page 35167

1 about the axis towards Crni Vrh because I'm not aware of any others. I

2 don't know them.

3 Secondly, all of what I said pertained to that group that was

4 moving towards Crni Vrh where I was present.

5 Q. I think what you testified to before is clear so let's move on.

6 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 04137 into evidence. 04137.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: 04137 is admitted into evidence. May it please be

8 given an exhibit number, Mr. Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7370, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

11 MS. HASAN: All right. So I'm going to turn now to 65 ter 04040.

12 Q. And what this is, is the Main Staff report that's dated the

13 15th of July that went to the president of Republika Srpska, amongst

14 others. So we're still on the same night, the night of the 15th.

15 MS. HASAN: And if I could ask that we turn to page 4 in the

16 English and B/C/S, please.

17 Q. You drafted this report; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, if we turn to page 3 in the English and the B/C/S, under

20 item 6 in the zone of the Drina Corps, a, where there's a summary of the

21 enemy, and midway through the paragraph, and this is your drafting, you

22 say:

23 "Their objective is to" -- sorry, I'll start a bit earlier.

24 "The remainder of the scattered Muslim formations from the former

25 Srebrenica enclave are moving towards Kravica and Konjevic Polje. Their

Page 35168

1 objective is to continue breaking through to Mount Udrc and from there to

2 Tuzla and Zivinice. During the course of today's day, several enemy

3 groups have surrendered to VRS members. In the zone of the Zvornik pbr,

4 around 0440 hours, the enemy launched a strong artillery attack on the

5 defence line of the 4th, 6th and 7th Infantry Battalion. The attack

6 ended around 0530 hours, but the enemy continued opening artillery and

7 small-arms fire at short intervals."

8 And then you go on to talk about Turkish troops pulling out from

9 Srebrenica towards Tuzla opening fire on an ambulance in the Planinica

10 village sector, killing the driver of a vehicle and a paramedic.

11 This is the information that you got from Krstic's report we just

12 looked at; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And under "Situation in the corps," item b, you go on to say:

15 "The 1st Zvornik pbr with its reinforcements is carrying out

16 preparations to cut off and encircle enemy soldiers en route from

17 Planinica to Krizevici."

18 Just under "Situation on the territory," Roman numeral II:

19 "The Vlasenica-Zvornik road is unsafe due to the enemy groups

20 from Srebrenica which are trying to breakthrough to Tuzla."

21 So you were reporting to the president and to -- for the

22 information as well, of all the other units listed on this document of

23 what was going on, of the movement of the Muslim forms towards Tuzla,

24 towards Crni Vrh, Mount Udrc and the breakthrough that was expected to

25 take place that -- that you had understood they were attempting to do.

Page 35169

1 Correct?

2 A. Well, it was from the report. I just summarised what had was

3 contained in the report. Now it is the assessment of the corps

4 commander.

5 Q. Yes, and you understood that this was his assessment?

6 A. Yes, yes. His assessment. Couldn't be mine.

7 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 04040 into evidence.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: 04040 is admitted into evidence. May it please be

9 given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7371, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

12 MS. HASAN:

13 Q. Now, moving on to 16th July, and I'm still addressing the

14 comment -- the testimony you gave yesterday that you had no idea what was

15 going on when you left for Zvornik and that you didn't know there was a

16 column and that there was no breakthrough. Now you will recall that

17 Defence counsel showed you a report that -- the interim combat report

18 from Pandurevic that was dated the 16th of July. This is P1513. You

19 recall that report?

20 A. I first saw and read that report in 2007 when the gentleman

21 there, the Prosecutor, showed it to me. Until then, I hadn't seen it.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you do recall the report, don't you?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recall the report but I'm telling

24 when it was that I first saw it.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. That was the question: Do you recall

Page 35170

1 the report? "Yes" is a sufficient answer to the question.

2 MS. HASAN:

3 Q. And this is the report that you said never reached you at the

4 Main Staff, and this is at transcript page 35087, starting at line 10.

5 MS. HASAN: And just to refresh everyone's recollection, if we

6 could pull up that document, P1513.

7 And Mr. Stojanovic did read parts of this document. So just as a

8 reminder, it talks about the enemy has continued intensive attacks on the

9 brigade's area along the entire front line with particular intensity in

10 the defence area of the 7th, 4th, 6th, and 3rd Infantry Battalion.

11 He goes on to describe that forces, Muslim forces, "fired almost

12 1.000 projectiles of varying calibre and that parts of Srebrenica 28th

13 Infantry Battalion, together with previously infiltrated groups, carried

14 out a synchronized Kamikaze attack against the 4th pb, our positions,

15 weapons, and other equipment from the Planinci and Potocari areas, using

16 their numerical advantage, they surrounded the 4th pb. Counting soldiers

17 and civilians, armed and unarmed, all together 7.000."

18 Then he goes on to describe and I believe also Mr. Stojanovic

19 read this part about them capturing the 76-millimetre self-propelled guns

20 and seizing three of the VRS's trenches. And he reports:

21 "The brigade's problem is that part of our forces is surrounded

22 in the Baljkovica area. The enemy has suffered major losses, hundreds of

23 dead, but that has not prevented them from carrying out their

24 intentions."

25 And at the very last paragraph -- sorry, under item 3, this is

Page 35171

1 where Pandurevic provides a justification for opening a corridor, and he

2 says:

3 "In view of the great pressure on the brigade's area of

4 responsibility, the losses sustained, the inability of the surrounded

5 forces to hold out for long, the abandonment of the Zvornik pbr command

6 to deal as best ... it could with the Srebrenica Turks, coupled with the

7 absolute determination of the Turks to save at least some lives,

8 regardless of the losses and in order to prevent losses in our own ranks,

9 I have decided, in view of the situation, to open a corridor ..."

10 Q. Now I'm going to go to D1045. And, Mr. Trkulja, this is -- this

11 is a report you were also shown and it's the 16th July report that was

12 sent to the president of the RS, among others, and we examined this

13 report as well during your direct examination. And you testified that

14 you drafted this report and it bears your initials at the end of it, NT.

15 MS. HASAN: And I'd like it turn to page 4 in the English and 3

16 in the B/C/S.

17 Q. Under number 6 where there's a report on the Drina Corps zone of

18 responsibility, item a, this is your drafting, sir:

19 "On the Tuzla-Zvornik axis, the enemy regrouped large forces in

20 front of the 1st Zvornik pbr and used them early in the morning in a

21 strong artillery and infantry attack on our units' sector along the

22 Baljkovica-Rijeka-Pandurici axis. They were co-ordinating with ...

23 forces pulling out from the former Srebrenica enclave. They were able to

24 breakthrough the defence and capture three trenches in the Baljkovica

25 village sector, create a corridor for the pullout of civilian population,

Page 35172

1 which was used by about 7.000 mainly unarmed civilians (men, women,

2 children). During this attack, the enemy attacked our units from behind

3 the lines, irrespective of own losses. Thus they captured three

4 self-propelled guns by bodies - losing hundreds of soldiers. We are

5 currently negotiating with the Muslims with regard to freeing the

6 captured policemen and Zvornik Battalion members and the duration of the

7 corridor."

8 Now --

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Hasan, it is really Zvornik Battalion or

10 Zvornik Brigade?

11 MS. HASAN: Brigade, I'm sorry. Brigade.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

13 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry.

14 Q. Now, by the time you sat down to draft this report on the night

15 of the 16th of July, and this is before you leave to Baljkovica, you had

16 already received the information contained in Vinko Pandurevic's report.

17 You had received that from the Drina Corps, and this is why it appears

18 here in this report to the president?

19 A. Partly, yes, because I went towards Crni Vrh and everything I

20 spoke about pertains to Crni Vrh. Had there been more groups, more axes

21 or breakthrough, there were. But I didn't explain any other axis. I was

22 not present. I don't know. That can only be concluded on the basis of

23 the report. I spoke about the place where I was myself, and that is

24 Crni Vrh.

25 Q. Well, sir, let's get the story straight because you testified

Page 35173

1 yesterday that you were present at the Main Staff on the 16th of July in

2 Crna Rijeka and that you only left to Zvornik on the 17th of July. This

3 report you drafted on the night of the 16th. So are you telling us that

4 you were in the field on the 16th of July as well?

5 A. No. I was not in the field. I went on a field mission in the

6 morning, on the 17th.

7 Q. So when you just testify, "yes, because I went towards Crni Vrh

8 and everything I spoke about pertains to Crni Vrh," well, you hadn't gone

9 to Crni Vrh yet to include this information in this report. That only

10 happened after you drafted this report.

11 A. That happened one day after this report.

12 Q. So the information that we see here in this report that's

13 drafted -- you drafted the night of the 16th, is information you received

14 from the Drina Corps and it is based on the information provided by

15 Vinko Pandurevic in his interim combat report dated the 16th of July?

16 A. What was used was the Drina Corps report. I never saw

17 Pandurevic's report at the command post. I first saw it when I arrived

18 here.

19 Q. So --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The issue really is that this report does not

21 contain any observations you may have made in Crni Vrh on the 17th,

22 because the report was written before the 17th, irrespective of whether

23 you -- the report is from the Drina Corps or from Pandurevic's report.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. That's precisely the

25 case. We did not have any information as to what was going on at

Page 35174

1 Crni Vrh.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

3 MS. HASAN:

4 Q. And, Mr. Trkulja, to be very clear, the Drina -- you had seen a

5 report from the Drina Corps which included the information that is

6 provided in your report that you drafted to the president and which

7 reflects the information Vinko Pandurevic provided in his interim combat

8 report?

9 A. Yes.

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Hasan ...

13 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Hasan, how much more do you still need?

15 You've reached the end of your time.

16 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry, I did not hear you very well. I don't

17 think your microphone was on.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I said, according to the Registrar, you have

19 reached the end of your time. How much more time do you need?

20 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, I actually do think I will need

21 20 minutes.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Try to squeeze it into 20 minutes.

23 MS. HASAN:

24 Q. Very quickly, if we can -- given that you keep mentioning

25 Crni Vrh, if we could look at P1087. This is the Srebrenica map book.

Page 35175

1 MS. HASAN: And if I could ask for the ERN page that ends 7949,

2 please. Page 19 in e-court.

3 Q. And you will see on the right border there --

4 MS. HASAN: I mean, if we could just zoom into the centre portion

5 of this map.

6 Q. You see there's Karakaj and if we just there, by that red and

7 black line, the border there. And if we take a look at -- you see

8 Zvornik there towards the bottom of the screen.

9 MS. HASAN: And if we go to the left, take a look at the left of

10 that map, okay, and scroll a little bit up. That's fine.

11 Q. You see those arrows, that's the movement of the Muslim

12 formations. And just under the date there, 16 July 1995, Mr. Trkulja, do

13 you see Planinci that we keep referring to? Do you see that there?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. And you see just to the left of that, where it says "Crni Vrh"?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So, in fact, Crni Vrh is just along where the Muslim formations

18 are moving near to -- to the lines there. That's the -- that's the axis

19 of movement.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is your question?

21 MS. HASAN:

22 Q. Do you agree, Mr. Trkulja, that your references to Crni Vrh

23 are -- in fact Crni Vrh falls just along the line, the movement of the

24 Muslim formations and their movement up towards the front lines?

25 A. Madam Prosecutor, the line that depicts the movement of Muslim

Page 35176

1 forces is an imaginary line. It was just a forecast. One of the groups,

2 possibly the biggest group, was actually moving towards Crni Vrh and not

3 in the direction pointed by the arrow.

4 Q. Let's move on to other things, Mr. Trkulja.

5 Now, you testified that -- at transcript page 35150, lines 1 to

6 6, that when you arrived in Baljkovica on 17th of July, that the Muslims

7 were in a ditch and that it was only on the 18th of July that they passed

8 through by agreement. You recall your testimony?

9 A. I do. It is the truth, and there's no two ways around it.

10 MS. HASAN: So let's look at P724, please. This is a report

11 submitted by Ljubisa Borovcanin and it's dated 5 September 1995. And he

12 reports on the combat engagement of the special police brigade and other

13 police forces in Operation Srebrenica 95 in the period from 11 to

14 21 July 1995.

15 And if we turn to page 4 in the English and B/C/S, please, he

16 provides an account of what happened on the 16th of July. And he says:

17 "Today, there was fierce fighting with the Muslim forces in the

18 areas of Krizevici, Tisova Kosa, and Baljkovica. The Muslim attack" --

19 and he goes on to say:

20 "The Muslim attack was very fierce and was backed by artillery

21 from Nezuk. In the morning, the enemy captured 57-millimetre

22 self-propelled guns from members of the Army of Republika Srpska which

23 protected the left flank of the MUP forces. Because of this, the

24 situation changed dramatically. From a distance of 400 to 500 metres,

25 these self-propelled guns directly pounded our hardware, vehicles,

Page 35177

1 ambulances, and the communications centre."

2 And then he goes on to say:

3 "There was danger that our forces would be completely cut off and

4 surrounded."

5 And the last sentence:

6 "The Army of Republika Srpska had about 40 killed and more than

7 80 wounded. It was not possible to establish the exact number

8 immediately.

9 "At about 1500 hours" -- if we can turn now to page 5 in the

10 B/C/S:

11 "The bulk of the enemy column (about 2.500 soldiers) managed to

12 breakthrough to Nezuk."

13 If we turn to page 5 in the English, Borovcanin continues to say

14 that:

15 "At 1300 hours," and this is the 16th of July, "the commander of

16 the Zvornik Brigade, Vinko Pandurevic, and the commander of the Muslim

17 side, Semso Muminovic, agreed to open a 1-kilometre wide corridor in the

18 areas of Parlog and Baljkovica to allow all the Muslim soldiers to get

19 out."

20 Q. You see that there? Now --

21 A. I don't have a map before me.

22 Q. I don't think there's a need for a map at this point in time.

23 Now, so when you arrived on the 17th of July, what Borovcanin reports

24 here had already transpired the day before; right?

25 A. It is possible, but on a different axis. Not on the one where I

Page 35178

1 was. Baljkovica is not even close.

2 Q. Now, this is exactly -- Borovcanin is reporting what Pandurevic

3 had also reported in his interim combat report. And if we look, sir, to

4 17th of July, Borovcanin says that:

5 "In co-ordination with the intervention units of the Zvornik

6 Brigade, the 5th Special Police Detachment closed the line in Baljkovica

7 and combed the area towards Crni Vrh."

8 So you had told us that you arrived on the 17th and that on the

9 18th the corridor was opened and it was closed on the 18th and then you

10 left back to -- to Crna Rijeka. Well, in fact, sir, you arrived on the

11 17th and then that is when the -- the corridor had already been opened

12 the day before, and it was on the 17th of July, the day that you arrived,

13 that it was closed. So you've got your chronology wrong. Isn't that the

14 case?

15 A. It is not the case. My chronology is absolutely correct. You

16 found a report where the duty officer recorded when I arrived Zvornik,

17 when I left, and I told you exactly who was present. I told you that at

18 10.00 on the 18th, they started withdrawing, and that's correct.

19 And now, for the fact that some people are lost in time and

20 space, well, that's their problem.

21 Q. And, sir, the day -- and let's leave aside the date. But the day

22 that you watched -- that you were present when the corridor was closed,

23 Vinko Pandurevic was with you. Isn't that the case?

24 A. Yes. I saw him in the morning on the 18th when Muslim forces

25 were supposed to start withdrawing. There were a lot of officers in the

Page 35179

1 evening as well but I can't remember that he was there. My memory

2 doesn't serve me well in that respect. On the 17th, he was there and he

3 issued an order in that part of the front line. The Zvornik Brigade had

4 a huge front line, some 20 or 30 kilometres long. The road between

5 Zvornik and Vlasenica was not safe. So there were all sorts of

6 possibilities. I'm just telling you that in my statement everything is

7 about what was going around Crni Vrh. There were no MUP forces there is

8 at all.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Trkulja, could you please slow down when you

10 speak because the interpreters are desperately trying to keep pace with

11 you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 MS. HASAN:

14 Q. Now, surely Pandurevic must have briefed you on what happened.

15 And you've told what you say Obrenovic had told you -- told you. But

16 what did Pandurevic tell you?

17 A. Pandurevic didn't tell me a thing. I saw him in the morning. We

18 greeted each other. And we allowed the events to take their course, as

19 had been agreed.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Hasan, I note the time.

21 MS. HASAN: Yes, Your Honour. I will have a few more questions

22 after the break, if you will allow.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: My colleague has just reminded me that Mr. Mladic

25 is not here, so we can go for another 30 minutes before we take the

Page 35180

1 break.

2 MS. HASAN: Thank you.

3 Q. So, Witness, you are there to -- with two other colonels from the

4 Main Staff, Sladojevic and Stankovic. And you do not receive any

5 information from Pandurevic about what is happening there? You're sent

6 by the Main Staff and you don't inquire about a corridor that was opened

7 which you knew about?

8 A. A correction. Colonel Stankovic was not with me. There was a

9 major whose name I can't remember, a member of the Drina Corps. I didn't

10 know what the situation at Crni Vrh was. Not even the duty officer with

11 whom the major had spoken knew. If he had known, if somebody had told

12 us, we would have never gone there.

13 Q. Sir, now, you had said that you were sent off with Sladojevic and

14 Stankovic, and the order that we saw from the 17th of July --

15 A. Whom?

16 Q. Sladojevic, Bogdan Sladojevic. And Stankovic, Milovan Stankovic.

17 He was the chief of reconnaissance, sabotage in the intelligence

18 administration of the Main Staff.

19 A. No. He was there, as a matter of fact, but he didn't go with us.

20 You can read that in the telegram. But he never joined us. He didn't go

21 with us because we never complied with that telegram. I went with

22 Sladojevic and with the major that I mentioned, the one from the

23 Drina Corps.

24 MS. HASAN: Let's look at 65 ter 26085, please. And this is the

25 OTP's interview of Sladojevic some 15 years ago in October 2000. And he

Page 35181

1 describes what Pandurevic said. If we could get page 4 in the B/C/S.

2 It's around line 24. And the same page in the English.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we're looking for the page, can you repeat

4 the number of the 65 ter number, please.

5 MS. HASAN: Yes, Your Honour, 26085.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

7 MS. HASAN: Okay. Can we turn one page in the English, please.

8 Okay.

9 Q. So he says and you can see it in the -- in your language at

10 line -- around line 24. In the English we're looking at approximately

11 line 8. So he says -- I'll just start a bit higher. He asked:

12 "Where is the commander, what's going on here? The commander

13 came maybe five minutes later, he didn't introduce himself but I drew a

14 conclusion that that was Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko Pandurevic. And he

15 just briefly showed on which position Muslim artillery fired the day

16 before."

17 MS. HASAN: If we could turn now the B/C/S page.

18 Q. He goes on to say:

19 "There was a kind of an orchard with plum trees and the forest

20 and everything was scratched there. They said that they attacked from

21 the front and also from the rear and that lasted for about two hours. It

22 all happened the day before. He said that he had 49 dead, 68 seriously

23 wounded. I know that approximately he said that 120 of his people were

24 incapacitated. 20 minutes later, Lieutenant-Colonel Obrenovic came who

25 was at the time [sic] I think Chief of Staff. When he came, he showed --

Page 35182

1 he pointed at the self-propelled gun where these people form the column

2 confiscated their machine-gun and their gun inflicted losses. The column

3 went towards Kladanj and Kalesija. Vinko said that he managed to get in

4 touch with the Muslim commander, he had contact -- that they exchanged

5 the dead bodies and Stankovic asked him if he had any indication there

6 will be another attack, attempt to take over Zvornik. He said that there

7 were no indications."

8 And he goes on.

9 Now, sir, that's indeed what Pandurevic and Obrenovic reported to

10 you that day, on the 17th of July?

11 A. The late Mr. Sladojevic's statement is completely incorrect. He

12 just got lost in time and space. On the 17th, in the evening, it was

13 Obrenovic who reported to us. He showed us the lines and everything

14 else. He explained what had been agreed with regard to opening the front

15 line. If he didn't speak to him privately, not officially, while we were

16 waiting for Muslim forces to pass through, there was nothing official.

17 There was no official report. The military part was nothing that

18 Pandurevic did on the 18th in the morning. Pandurevic was merely present

19 there. Now, as to whether he had a private chat with Sladojevic, I don't

20 know. I was the leader of that group, and if there was anything

21 relevant, he would have spoken to me.

22 Secondly, Obrenovic did not know whether there were casualties or

23 how many. I mean, he didn't know that in the evening on the 17th. At

24 10.00 they started coming out. You can read that everywhere. And now he

25 mentions a totally different time. That's why I say that he was lost in

Page 35183

1 time and space. They started leaving on the 10th, they finished at

2 12.00, and then we left. And yesterday we spoke about the sanitisation

3 process, but that is a matter for the organs of the rear, not the

4 Main Staff.

5 Q. Mr. Trkulja, do you know of any other incident during the Bosnian

6 war where VRS sustained the number of casualties referred to here in such

7 a short period of time? Are you aware of any such instance?

8 A. There was several. On Ozren, on Majevica.

9 Q. But you would agree, Mr. Trkulja, that the number -- these --

10 these figures were significant losses for the Zvornik Brigade?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You accepted, didn't you, that it was military necessity that

13 drove Vinko Pandurevic to withdraw and to reach an agreement with the

14 Muslims so that he could save the lives of his soldiers?

15 A. The same question was put last time. But I don't agree with

16 that. They were there with three tanks. Our late Sladojevic forgot to

17 say that. They used three tanks to push the Muslim forces to the ditch.

18 Pandurevic, had he wanted to destroy them, he would have done that within

19 two hours and nobody would have survived. They didn't have the

20 anti-armour resources to defend themselves. They were sitting ducks, if

21 you will. Pandurevic decided to painlessly deal with the situation, to

22 let them leave, and he got two platoons from the positions on the 17th in

23 the evening. All of this is incorrect. All of this you have here is

24 incorrect. On the 17th in the evening, he ordered those two platoons to

25 do that and they left. That's the truth. You see, 700 is mentioned and

Page 35184

1 that's when we had breakfast at the monastery. I didn't want to offend

2 anyone, but I did say that he was lost in time and space. And then --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not understand the

4 last sentence.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreters didn't hear the last sentence,

6 sir. Can you mention the last sentence.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We started getting out at 10.00.

8 It all ended at 12 and we left. I mean, I and my team. I and ...

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Hasan, please control your witness to keep

10 it to the tight schedule. You have gone beyond your 20 minutes.

11 MS. HASAN: I'll just end with one final question, if I may,

12 Your Honour.

13 Q. When you returned to Crna Rijeka, you reported to Miletic, you

14 said. What did you tell him?

15 A. I just told him everything I said to you just now. The journey

16 to Srebrenica, they weren't there, they went around in a circle, then

17 went to see the duty officer and --

18 Q. I'm interested in what you reported to him in response to your --

19 the mission that you were sent on, what did you tell him about that? Not

20 about your excursion to Srebrenica.

21 A. About that task, actually it turned out completely different

22 since the Muslim forces had passed through -- actually, that the front

23 line was re-established. I mean, I described to him what happened.

24 MS. HASAN: I have nothing further, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Hasan. This may be an

Page 35187

1 Q. Sir, I would like to first ask you to set forth your full name

2 for purposes of the record.

3 A. My name is Tihomir Stevanovic.

4 Q. And, sir, could you also tell us where and when you were born.

5 A. I was born on the 20th of January, 1950, in the village of

6 Lijesanj, in Zvornik, Bosnia and Herzegovina.

7 Q. And, sir, have you testified as a witness in the courtroom in any

8 other legal proceedings before today?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You mean before the Tribunal.

10 MR. IVETIC: At all.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: In any court?

12 MR. IVETIC: In any court, yeah.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in a situation to testify in

14 a misdemeanours court in my place of residence. I did not testify here.

15 However, I was announced as a witness for Radivoje Miletic. I stayed

16 here for nine days and for justified personal reasons, I gave a statement

17 and went back home.

18 MR. IVETIC:

19 Q. Could you briefly detail for us your civilian educational

20 background, first of all.

21 A. I completed elementary school in my place of birth, the village

22 of Lijesanj and Drinjaca combined, four plus four, because there weren't

23 eight grades in Lijesanj. Then I graduated from the secondary military

24 school in Belgrade. It's a four-year school. Communications, that

25 what's I studied. Then I completed a course from 1970 -- no, 1980 -- no,

Page 35188

1 1976, for encoding, at the school centre for communications in Belgrade.

2 In 1987, I graduated from the Military Academy. I studied part-time, and

3 I completed a school for encoders. It was a nine-month course.

4 Q. And if you could just tell us how long the course in encoding

5 lasted or [B/C/S spoken] I think is the words you used?

6 A. The first training as an organ for cryptographic data protection

7 that only pertained to NCOs of the former JNA lasted three months, and I

8 was trained for encoding and partial encryption and decryption of encoded

9 telegrams.

10 Q. Okay. Now, in relation to your time in the military, can you

11 briefly chronicle for us the positions and ranks that you held at various

12 times during your professional career up to the outbreak of the war in

13 the former Yugoslavia.

14 A. Since I graduated from a school for NCOs with top marks, I was

15 entitled to choose where I would serve and I chose Bijeljina. As a

16 sergeant I was a squad leader. In 1972 I went to Sarajevo, to the

17 garrison there, and I was commander of a platoon in the 7th Army. In

18 1987, when I received my commission, I worked in the communications organ

19 of the 7th Army for three years. And then I was transferred to the

20 4th Battalion of communications at the Lukavica barracks as company

21 commander. I carried out those duties until operations started. Excuse

22 me.

23 Q. And you say when operations started. What specific post did you

24 hold at the time the war in the former Yugoslavia started?

25 A. When the war started in the former Yugoslavia, I was commander of

Page 35189

1 the 2nd Mixed Company at the 4th Battalion for communications at the

2 Lukavica garrison.

3 Q. Okay. And where were you living and where was your family living

4 when the war broke out in the former Yugoslavia?

5 A. My family lived in Sarajevo, in the neighbourhood of Ciglane.

6 Q. And did your family remain living there when the war broke out in

7 the former Yugoslavia?

8 A. We have to go back to 1991, when my older son went to the JNA,

9 and my younger son and my wife stayed on in Sarajevo, until it broke

10 out -- actually, until possibilities were created for leaving Sarajevo

11 because it was critical. It was hard to stay there.

12 Q. What made it hard to stay in Sarajevo?

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we get a time-frame?

14 MR. IVETIC:

15 Q. Sir, what time-frame are you talking about, first of all?

16 A. It was the end of March, beginning of April, 1992.

17 Q. And then could you give us some idea of what you mean when you

18 say: "... it was critical. It was hard to stay there"?

19 A. Well, already at that time, in 1991, the leadership of the SDA

20 there, then-president Alija Izetbegovic, something was issued that was

21 not an order, it was a suggestion, not to serve in the JNA. Part of the

22 Serb population in Sarajevo did not accept that, and we sent our children

23 to do their military service. The Muslims didn't do that, but it wasn't

24 all of them. Some still went to do their military service. Those who

25 accepted call-up papers and sent their children to do their military

Page 35190

1 service were not well liked in Sarajevo, and they were exposed to

2 provocations, including myself and my family. We were exposed to that

3 too.

4 Q. Okay. And where did your family go?

5 A. My family, that is to say, my son and my wife who stayed on --

6 first my son left through Butmir airport, went to Belgrade. And my wife

7 moved from Ciglane where we had lived and where she was seriously taunted

8 because I moved to the barracks because of the heightened alert. She

9 moved to Grbavica. And there was another lady there, the wife of my

10 colleague, and together with her she went to Rajlovac and again through

11 the airport she went to Belgrade and then from there to Zrenjanin and so

12 on.

13 Q. Did you have occasion to join the Army of Republika Srpska, and

14 if so, when?

15 A. Since I was in the 4th Battalion for communications of the

16 4th Corps, I was already in the Lukavica barracks. Immediately when the

17 2nd Military District left the barracks on the square of the 6th of

18 April, around the 6th of May, on orders, I established a unit that was

19 reinforced from the 1st Company and from my own company, manpower and

20 equipment included, left -- so we left Sarajevo with a column and

21 soldiers to the Tvrdimici neighbourhood where I established a

22 communications centre at the command post of the then-4th Corps.

23 Immediately after the centre was established, the corps commander,

24 General Vojislav Djurdjevac arrived. In this way I automatically joined

25 the Army of Republika Srpska, although it wasn't called the Army of

Page 35191

1 Republika Srpska at that time. Because my unit was a mixed unit.

2 Officially, as for the Army of Republika Srpska, I joined on the

3 19th of May, the same year.

4 Q. When you say your unit was a mixed unit, what do you mean?

5 A. Well, it's simple. In my unit, I then had mixed ethnic

6 backgrounds, Serbs, Macedonians, Hungarians, who were from different

7 republics; Macedonia, Serbia, and Montenegro. At the time while I was at

8 Tvrdimici I didn't have any Muslims.

9 Q. Okay. Now, during this time-period, did you have knowledge of

10 the withdrawal of other JNA personnel from the town of Sarajevo?

11 A. Again we have to go back to the Lukavica barracks and link that

12 to my stay in the Lukavica barracks. Because I was a member of the

13 communications battalion of the 4th Corps, one of the tasks of my units

14 was following the withdrawal of units from the Sarajevo garrison and the

15 transfer to Serb-controlled territory -- or actually not that, it was

16 safer at the time, safer territory. And that was the Lukavica garrison.

17 So I was in a position to follow the withdrawal of the column

18 from Zenica with General Sipcic, who was a colonel then, then the Marsal

19 Tito barracks, then the auto battalion from Alipasa's bridge and the

20 command of the 2nd Military District from the 6th April Square in

21 Lukavica.

22 Q. Could you describe for us by what means were you able to follow

23 with -- the withdrawal of these units that have you identified for us.

24 A. This is the truth. At that time, when units were withdrawing,

25 JNA units were withdrawing from garrisons, the ones that I already

Page 35192

1 mentioned, I think the reason is already well known, because they were

2 exposed to constant attacks and there was a high degree of intolerance,

3 so they couldn't stay on in these settings. So we communicated with

4 these units and we regulated the following. We used RUP-12s and PRCs

5 that had the same capabilities and they were in the so-called small staff

6 command vehicles and units had these resources. At the head in the back

7 of the column, they had such equipment and such vehicles. And we, from

8 the Lukavica barracks, followed their departure, their march, and their

9 arrival at the Lukavica garrison, which was their destination.

10 I can add that Miroslav Micic, who was then a sergeant, worked on

11 these communications.

12 Q. In the course of the withdrawal of the various units or -- or

13 formations that you said you were involved in following, did you recall

14 any problems or incidents that arose in relation to the same?

15 A. Sorry, there's one thing I didn't say, and that is that we

16 followed the withdrawal of the military police battalion from the

17 Viktor Bubanj barracks so that's included too.

18 I do remember. Let us start with the auto battalion that was at

19 Alipasino Polje, no Most, Alipasin Most. When the column set out, it was

20 sometime in the morning. We had communication with the front end and the

21 back of that column. However, immediately as soon as they were supposed

22 to set out, there were certain problems because part of the Muslim forces

23 called the Green Berets tried to infiltrate the column and to cut it in

24 two and that was prevented at the very outset. The column continued its

25 March from Alipasin Most to Lukavica. However, soon after they left the

Page 35193

1 barracks compound, again the unit was -- or, rather, the column was cut

2 in two because we lost communication with the back of the column.

3 The personnel at the back of the column, in this vehicle for

4 communication, pointed out to us that it's possible that it was cut in

5 two, the column, which proved to be true. In half an hour or 40 minutes,

6 the head of the column and that half of the column that had left Alipasin

7 Most arrived, and then they were directed to Sarajevo -- or, rather, the

8 Green Berets took those vehicles, seized them, the ones that we never got

9 back. That goes for that barracks.

10 As for the Marsal Tito barracks, that was the centre for training

11 infantry recruits with a complete infrastructure, and everything else

12 that is required by institutions of higher learning of a military nature.

13 There were no problems with withdrawal there, and the unit left without

14 any problems and went on to Belgrade. Of course, the -- the personnel

15 there were of mixed backgrounds and I don't know what happened

16 afterwards.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic, that was a real long and very

18 detailed answer, and the previous answers were also quite long. You

19 indicated, first, that you would need for examination-in-chief one and a

20 half hours. You increased the time for two hours. Is it because you

21 realised that the witness is giving detailed answers far beyond some of

22 the questions you have put to him? Or what is the reason for that? I --

23 MR. IVETIC: The reason was additional information that was not

24 known to me, Your Honours --

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would --

Page 35194

1 MR. IVETIC: -- that was a part of the proofing note, that I then

2 have additional questions to ask the witness, additional areas to explore

3 with the witness.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. But at the moment we are dealing with

5 matters which are -- were dealt with in some detail with previous

6 witnesses. You should try to keep it short and not to -- to make sure

7 that the witness is really focusing on your questions and not expanding

8 too much.

9 MR. IVETIC: I will endeavour to do so, Your Honour.

10 Q. Sir, was there any other of the withdrawals that resulted in any

11 incidents or problems that you have knowledge of?

12 A. Very well, I'll keep it short, no problem.

13 The Viktor Bubanj barracks, there were no problems in the

14 withdrawal of the personnel there. One should not ignore the case of the

15 murder of a soldier in the barracks before the troops' departure. There

16 was, however, a lot of problems in another area. The problems were of

17 the same nature as those when the Alipasin Most barracks were being

18 closed and the troops withdrawing from there. There were casualties

19 there and you know about that already. Those casualties were on the side

20 of the withdrawing unit.

21 Q. Which unit was withdrawing because that has not come into our

22 transcript? Which -- the withdrawal of which unit or entity are you

23 speaking of where there were casualties?

24 A. The command of the 2nd Military District was withdrawing. The

25 officers and the accompanying soldiers or escorts who worked within the

Page 35195

1 facility or provided services for the command. I'm talking about the

2 command of the 2nd Military District, they were withdrawing. They were

3 headed by General Kukanjac.

4 Q. Okay. Now, sir, either during your time as a JNA officer or

5 afterwards when you became a VRS officer, did you have occasion to have

6 some information or insight into the placement of ABiH military forces or

7 installations within the city of Sarajevo?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. Can we get a time-frame? That's so

9 broad that -- given the information we have that he's been all over the

10 place.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.

12 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely.

13 Q. Subsequent to March of 1992, did you occasion to have some

14 information or insight into the placement of ABiH military forces or

15 installations within the city of Sarajevo?

16 A. As all the other officers of the VRS, I did have certain

17 information about the locations of their forces or at least some of their

18 forces. In view of the fact that the barracks had been abandoned on the

19 6th of April, the barracks in Bascarsija, that's where I had been in

20 service, the Marsal Tito barracks --

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry to interrupt but the question was

22 answered and now we're going off into a narrative. He did have

23 information.

24 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

25 Q. Did you have information of any locations of a civilian nature

Page 35196

1 where the Army BiH had military troops or installations located?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think that's a leading question, Mr. Ivetic.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did have direct --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second, sir. Just a second, Mr. Witness.

5 I think that's a leading question.

6 MR. IVETIC: Well, my prior question was open-ended and he

7 started giving an answer and I had objection from the other side, so they

8 wanted me to --

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nobody [overlapping speakers] --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's no justification for giving a leading

11 question next. You still have to ask a non-leading question.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Where there were locations might -- has not been

13 asked yet.

14 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

15 Q. At the risk of opening up a narrative, where were their locations

16 located in Sarajevo?

17 A. The Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, one of the

18 brigades, according to the information of our security organ. I can give

19 you his name, Colonel Milorad Bukva. I also know indirectly that they

20 were also located in the Kosevo hospital, the military hospital. That's

21 where they opened fire from. There was some individual locations in the

22 tunnel, in the brick-works. That's where they had heavy weaponry and

23 they opened fire from it there.

24 Q. You have identified the Kosevo hospital and the military hospital

25 as places where the ABiH opened fire from. What is the basis of that

Page 35197

1 knowledge or information that you have?

2 A. That man, who is my relative, still lives in Sarajevo. I need to

3 protect him. He was in Sarajevo throughout the war and he was treated at

4 Kosevo hospital and then in military hospital. He told me that, for

5 example, in the military hospital, fire was opened from the balcony.

6 Mortar fire was opened from there. And the patients were sheltered in

7 the basement because they knew that there would be retaliation, that fire

8 would be returned. They opened fire from the Kosevo hospital, from the

9 park, because the hospital is surrounded by greenery. They entered the

10 hospital's perimeter and they opened fire from there. Also in view of

11 the fact that person resided in the military field in Djordje Andrejevic

12 Kun Street, leaning on Nedzarici, that's where our unit was, and the

13 settlement was called Vojnicko Polje. Often heavy weaponry would be

14 brought by the police commanded by Vikic and fire was opened from there.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection -- objection.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: He's asked for the basis or the knowledge and we

18 have apparently a friend who he doesn't want to name and now he has just

19 gone into a narrative without any basis. And you know, we've been here a

20 long time, to be getting unnamed, second- and third-hand sources, if he

21 is serious about this, we can go into private session. But to me this

22 is -- has very little probative value.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.

24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would be happy to go into private

25 session with Your Honours' leave.

Page 35199

1 We are now in open session, Mr. Stevanovic, so be careful what

2 you say now.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one question to the witness, please.

4 You mentioned a relative of yours. Is that the only source of

5 your knowledge in the information you gave earlier about location of ABiH

6 forces in Sarajevo?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell you more about that, but

8 I can see that you will not allow me to expand.

9 In view of the nature of my work that I carried out --

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, I would like to interrupt you. I asked

11 you if he is the only source. Yes or no?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What other sources do you base your knowledge on?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My personal knowledge and the

15 knowledge of the security organs of my unit, and by that, I mean the

16 4th Corps.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic.

18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

19 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the departure of civilians from

20 parts of the city of Sarajevo which were not controlled by the JNA or the

21 VRS?

22 A. From the very beginning of the war; i.e., when the security

23 situation became tense, my family and myself and then all of my friends

24 and later a lot of other people left Pofalici. Pofalici was under a lot

25 of pressure and under that pressure the people caved in and they

Page 35200

1 abandoned the neighbourhood. I saw that personally some of those men

2 joined my unit in Trebevic.

3 Q. [Microphone not activated] Let's break this down. Tell us what

4 part you saw personally of what was going on in Pofalici.

5 A. Between 8.00 and 9.00 in the morning, and I don't remember the

6 date, it was a long time ago, right? The Pofalici settlement, where 80

7 to 85 per cent of the population were Serbs, came under an attack and you

8 could see that with the naked eye from the command of the 4th Corps where

9 I was at the time. You could also observe the situation through the

10 binoculars. You could observe the situation better through binoculars.

11 There was an attack and then the houses were torched and those houses and

12 facilities were property of the Serbs. And then people started arriving

13 in the territory of Vogosca, Ilidza, Lukavica, Tilava. All those areas

14 were controlled by Serbs.

15 Q. Okay. Now who was attacking the settlement of Pofalici that you

16 observed?

17 A. Muslim forces.

18 Q. And now earlier you also said "some of those men joined my unit

19 in Trebevic." Who was it that later joined your unit in Trebevic?

20 A. I apologise, sir, not Trebevic but Tvrdimici. My unit was in the

21 village of Tvrdimici. That's where the command post was as well. Those

22 were mostly drivers by trade, common folks, who were militarily

23 able-bodied. My unit was a special unit and the only people who could

24 join it were communications men and drivers. There were some

25 communications guys, not many of them.

Page 35201

1 Q. But from where did they men come to join you at Tvrdimici?

2 A. From the settlement of Pofalici.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. They were assigned to my unit, in practical terms.

5 Q. Okay. Now, you earlier also mentioned -- you said something

6 about Bascarsija. What was in Bascarsija?

7 A. Above Bascarsija - and Bascarsija is about 100 to 150 metres as

8 the crow flies from the Jajce barracks where I had served for 14 years -

9 their battalion of military police was billeted there. And since you

10 could see that area from the area controlled by the Serbs, we suffered

11 daily fire being opened on our positions from there.

12 Q. Okay. Now, sir, can you tell us did you remain in the Sarajevo

13 area the entirety of the war or did you transfer to some other unit or

14 formation?

15 A. As needed, when the company was fully established and when it was

16 moved together with the command post from the village of Tvrdimici to

17 Pale, to the tourist hotel there where the command post of the 4th Corps

18 was, at the beginning of March 1993, on the order of the commander of the

19 Main Staff of the VRS and at the proposal of the communications organ of

20 the Army of Republika Srpska, I was reassigned to Crna Rijeka to the

21 communications regiment.

22 Q. Before we continue with the communications regiment, I'm not sure

23 if you identified who was in the barracks at Jajce as the transcript does

24 not record that element. So I would ask for you to please repeat for us

25 who was quartered in the Jajce barracks.

Page 35202

1 A. You mean during the war? During war activities?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. The military police of the Muslim military. It was a battalion

4 of the military police. That was their strength.

5 Q. Now, coming back to your transfer to the communications regiment,

6 what were your precise duties within the communications regiment when you

7 first arrived in March of 1993?

8 A. I'll try and keep it short. I was appointed as the company

9 commander for the communications garrison. That was in the rank of a

10 communications battalion. That was my duty.

11 Q. Can you tell us how long you stayed in this position?

12 A. Until March 1995. And then I became a member of the

13 communications department of the Main Staff of the VRS.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we get ranks.

15 MR. IVETIC:

16 Q. What rank did you hold at the time that you were appointed to the

17 communications regiment in March of 1993?

18 A. Captain first class.

19 Q. What rank did you have when you joined the communications

20 department of the Main Staff?

21 A. Major.

22 Q. And what specific position did you have at the Department of

23 Communications of the Main Staff?

24 A. I was the desk officer for cryptographic protection in the

25 communications department of the Main Staff of the Army of

Page 35203

1 Republika Srpska.

2 Q. While you were at this position in the communications department

3 of the Main Staff, who was your immediate superior?

4 A. My immediate superior was Colonel Radomir Prole.

5 Q. Now moving backwards to the first position that you held at the

6 Main Staff within the communications regiment, where were you physically

7 located during the time of performance of your duties?

8 A. I apologise, in order to answer your question, I have to say that

9 the communications company had a relay platoon which was quartered at

10 Veliki Zep. It had a telephone platoon, the ATC platoon, and the

11 maintenance squad. The last three units were quartered at the Goljak 1

12 feature where I was also quartered.

13 Q. And the Goljak 1 feature, what kind of a feature or structure was

14 that?

15 A. It depended on the unit formations and their changes. First it

16 was --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.

18 MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Just a moment.

20 [In English] The interpreters have asked that you speak more

21 slowly, sir. Could you please restart your answer.

22 A. Very well. According to the first and original version, the

23 Goljak 1 structure was intended for the rear command post of the former

24 7th Army. When that was disbanded, its purpose was to serve as the rear

25 command post of the corps. And when the war broke out, that's where the

Page 35204

1 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska was quartered.

2 Q. And what kind of building was Goljak 1?

3 A. Goljak 1 was a sub-terrain facility featuring all the necessary

4 equipment for the stay and work of a command, the size of the

5 then-Main Staff.

6 Q. What --

7 A. It could go on working uninterruptedly for 75 days.

8 Q. What can you tell us about the staffing levels that you

9 experienced at the communications regiment when you arrived there?

10 A. Just like all the other units, the communications regiment was

11 understaffed. It had two battalions. It had a company for garrison

12 communications and a rear platoon. When it comes to my company, it was

13 supposed to have -- I can't remember exactly what it would have been

14 according to establishment, but it should have been 130 men. When I

15 arrived there, I found between 60 and 70 men in the unit.

16 Q. Now going back to your second position that you held after

17 March of 1995, when you were a desk officer for cryptographic protection,

18 could you tell us what were the precise duties that this position

19 entailed?

20 A. The duties of a desk officer for cryptographic data protection in

21 the Main Staff of the VRS was to organise cryptographic data protection

22 at the level of the VRS, to secure technical equipment and means, as well

23 as all the necessary documents that were needed for the normal

24 functioning of cryptographic data protection at all levels of the VRS. I

25 inherited that position from Lieutenant-Colonel Miroslav Radakovic.

Page 35205

1 Q. How long did you stay in this position?

2 A. Until the end of the war and then I continued in peacetime.

3 Q. Okay. When did you retire from active military service?

4 A. In 2003.

5 Q. What rank did you have at the time of retirement?

6 A. Lieutenant-colonel.

7 Q. Okay. Now, you've identified for us Goljak 1. Were there any

8 other buildings or structures that made up the Main Staff facility at --

9 command facility?

10 A. Within the perimeter of Crna Rijeka, there was Goljak 1, the

11 so-called Barake [phoen] settlement. The Veliki Zep feature which was a

12 radio-relay facility. The buildings and commands of the 65th Motorised

13 Regiment and the communications regiment, their commands were in wooden

14 huts, and the troops were in dugouts. There was also the G2, or

15 Goljak 2, feature which was very close but it was not secured and there

16 was nobody there. Within the complex of those features, there was also

17 the Goljak 3 facility, which was located some 7 to 10 kilometres further

18 away, near Han Pogled mountain pass on the Han Pijesak-Vlasenica road.

19 Q. Now I would like to ask you to tell us what means of

20 communication made up the communications network available to the

21 Main Staff of the VRS at Crna Rijeka.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we get a time-frame or ...

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.

24 MR. IVETIC:

25 Q. During the time-period that you were there, from March of 1993

Page 35206

1 until the end of the war in 1995, could you give us an overview of the

2 means of communications that were -- that made up the communications

3 network of the Main Staff of the VRS at Crna Rijeka.

4 A. From the point of view of the duties that I performed, I have to

5 give the following answer, which is professional.

6 The Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska used an integrated

7 system of communications that consisted of radio communications,

8 radio-relay communications, wire communications, and courier

9 communications.

10 Q. Okay. I'd like to break that down a bit, and I would ask you to

11 describe for us which type of radio-relay devices were utilized by the

12 VRS Main Staff for communications with its subordinate corps?

13 A. The Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska used the following

14 radio-relay devices that were positioned at Veliki Zep; namely, SMC, RR

15 radio-relay device, RRU, FM-200, RRU-9. RRU-800 not so often. Then

16 RRU-1 which has a single channel.

17 That is what I have to say about radio-relay devices.

18 Q. Before we continue, Your Honours, I think that we started at

19 15 after. We're on a different schedule today.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, we're trying to configure the hours because

21 we spent one and a half hours this morning, so if we can go until 25 past

22 12.00.

23 MR. IVETIC: That's fine.

24 Q. Sir, were any of these -- were any of the routes covered by this

25 radio-relay communications equipment you've just identified for us able

Page 35207

1 to carry encrypted communications?

2 A. Yes, briefly. That's a brief answer, yes. And I can explain

3 how, if necessary.

4 Q. First of all, which routes could be encrypted?

5 A. Could have and had to have been encrypted. All of those going to

6 the 1st Corps, the Herzegovina Corps, the Eastern Bosnia Corps, and the

7 air force and air defences, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the Presidency,

8 all of them were encrypted, protected.

9 Q. What about with the Drina Corps?

10 A. I'm -- I'm sorry, I apologise if I omitted that. It was by

11 accident. Yes, the Drina Corps too.

12 Q. Could you please tell -- describe for us the types of encryption

13 devices that were in use in relation to the radio-relay communications

14 between the Main Staff and these other parties that you have identified

15 where encrypted communications went?

16 A. Since these are radio-relay devices and that kind of protection,

17 the two basic devices for cryptography protection of speech that went

18 through these systems is KZU-71 and KZU-61. Let me make a distinction

19 here so that would be clear. The KZU-71 had the possibility of

20 protecting a group of telephone channels, speech channels, transmitted by

21 this system; whereas KZU-61 could protect only one channel.

22 Q. And what about for -- you identified that these are for speech.

23 Were there any encryption devices for written communication?

24 A. Yes. Cryptographic protection referred to written information

25 and spoken information. For written information there were several

Page 35208

1 systems. The safest and most often used one was R-7. Then 31. They

2 were used for the protection of written information along with T-G4 or,

3 rather, KZU-31.

4 Q. Could you tell us, first of all, how the KZU-71 and the KZU-61

5 devices performed their encryption function?

6 A. I do apologise. This is English, but it's not R-7. It's S-7. I

7 see this in this text although I don't understand English. So now let me

8 go back to the answer.

9 KZU-71 was placed between the radio-relay device and AMD-310.

10 They could have been from -- they could have had four, eight or 32

11 channels. Usually it was between eight and 16 channels. And all

12 information that was open arrived in KZU-71. And when exiting KZU-71,

13 moving towards a radio-relay device, this information became encrypted.

14 For KZU-71 to secure encryption of information that is arriving, before

15 that it was necessary to carry out certain preparations by inserting a

16 key for encryption or, rather, decryption.

17 Q. I'm going to --

18 A. Please go ahead.

19 Q. If I can you to be precise. When you say "a key," what kind of

20 key is that? Is that a physical key?

21 A. No, no. This is a coded tape that is put into this key -- no,

22 no, into the device itself. It is read into it, into its electronic

23 system, and it is valid for 15 days up to a month, and I would usually

24 change it every 15 days. That was my practice.

25 Q. Okay. Could you go on then and complete telling us how the

Page 35209

1 KZU-71 and 61 devices functioned.

2 A. Well, this electronic system --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

4 speak more clearly. Thank you.

5 MR. IVETIC: The interpreters have asked that you speak slowly

6 and try to speak more clearly, perhaps with the microphone closer to you,

7 so that they can better follow you.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It is not a question of

9 the microphone. Could the witness please speak clearly. Thank you.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, I thought that I was even

11 speaking too loud.

12 So it was open speech that came into KZU-71, and the key that was

13 inserted before that into the electric electronic system, the electronic

14 system of the KZU-71 made it possible to scramble this speech so when

15 leaving that device and then further on through radio relay, it would be

16 transmitted in an encoded way, a single tone, namely, so nothing could be

17 understood. And there could be no decryption or, rather, there couldn't

18 be any interception therefore.

19 Q. Are there any major differences between the way that the KZU-61

20 encryption device worked?

21 A. Yes, KZU-71 is a more modern piece of communication -- piece of

22 equipment and it enables the kind of communication we have now, whereas

23 61 is a device that encoded speech. However, it required very slow

24 speech so that it could be transmitted to the other side. Its abilities

25 were modest, in terms of transmission capacity.

Page 35210

1 Q. Did either of these encryption devices need to be activated or

2 turned on in order to function when someone was using a radio-relay

3 device?

4 A. As soon as there is radio-relay communication and as soon as

5 telephone channels get through and as soon as quality is tested, KZU-71

6 is put in and it works all the time and it does not require any kind of

7 activation at a further point. It is activated throughout. And it

8 reacts to speech, and then speech is encoded afterwards. So it doesn't

9 have to be switched on afterwards. It's on all the time.

10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I see we're at the 26-minute mark.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] We'll take a break and

12 come back at quarter to 1.00.

13 Could you please follow the usher.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break at come back at quarter to

16 1.00.

17 Court adjourned.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we're waiting for the witness,

21 Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber received information that the Defence would

22 like to address a scheduling issue for the week 18th to the 22nd of May.

23 I'm not asking that you do that now, just indicate whether -- are you

24 going to do it or ...

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We will do that, Your Honour.

Page 35211

1 We expect to be able to do that tomorrow morning, concerning the last

2 working week this month.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

4 [The witness takes the stand]

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.

6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. Sir, in relation to these keys for the encryption devices that

8 were changed every 15 to 30 days, where did these keys come from?

9 A. I provided those keys to the units.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not understand

11 whether the witness said that he can or cannot say where the key was

12 made.

13 MR. IVETIC:

14 Q. Could you repeat the last part of your answer.

15 A. If necessary, I can say where it was made, and I'm the one who

16 provided them to the units.

17 Q. If you could also then tell us where they were manufactured.

18 A. The keys for encoding written and spoken information were made at

19 the Institute of Applied Mathematics and Physics in Belgrade.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, could somebody with the same radio-relay

21 communications equipment and the same encryption device but without a key

22 for the encryption device listen to the voice communications that were

23 transmitted via such a device?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now I'd like to move to radio devices. What radio devices did

Page 35212

1 the VRS Main Staff have at their disposal?

2 A. When I was speaking about the communications used by the

3 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, I said radio communications

4 as well. The radio communications used by the Main Staff of the Army of

5 Republika Srpska were very powerful pieces of equipment and they were

6 used exceptionally, seldom, very rarely. Only in situations when it was

7 absolutely necessary. Also, radio devices that were short-range,

8 Motorolas, were used, as well as radio telephone equipment in the

9 vehicles of the commander and the Chief of Staff.

10 Q. Okay. First of all, on what types of occasions would radio

11 devices be exceptionally used?

12 A. If all radio-relay communications with subordinate units were

13 down. That did not happen until our radio-relay facilities were bombed

14 or, rather, our node centres. They were just used for conveying short

15 orders, written information. One kilowatt, RTP, 1 kilowatt - that's the

16 device - they make it possible to encode and decode information and

17 transmit such written information because they include teleprinters as

18 well.

19 Q. And now you also mentioned, I believe, Motorolas and

20 vehicle-based radio equipment. What was the range of the same?

21 A. Radio communication in vehicles was only based on repeater links.

22 The range was short and it depended on the configuration of the terrain.

23 So they were not always successful. I can state with responsibility that

24 these communications were used seldom.

25 Q. Now I want to focus for a bit on the types of radio or

Page 35213

1 communications devices that were available to the vehicles that were used

2 by General Mladic. Could you first identify for us who was in charge of

3 setting up and maintaining such equipment in the vehicles of

4 General Mladic?

5 A. It was the technical --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness start

7 again, speaking clearly and slowly. Thank you.

8 MR. IVETIC:

9 Q. Can you please start your answer again and speak more slowly and

10 clearly so that the interpreters can catch every word.

11 A. Very well. Radio telephone devices that were installed in

12 vehicles that were used by the commander of the Main Staff of the Army of

13 Republika Srpska were maintained by professionals from the logistics

14 platoon of the communications regiment of the Main Staff of the Army of

15 Republika Srpska.

16 Q. These radio telephone devices, based on what technology did they

17 operate? What type were they?

18 A. Electromagnetic waves. But the range was short. And it depended

19 on repeaters only, their range depended on that, that is.

20 Q. On what type of vehicles of General Mladic were these devices

21 installed?

22 A. On Puchs. It's a vehicle called Puch.

23 Q. What type of a vehicle is a Puch?

24 A. It's a terrain vehicle and that's a vehicle that usually

25 commanders had.

Page 35214

1 Q. What -- what about civilian vehicles that were used by General

2 Mladic at the Main Staff? What type of equipment for communications

3 would those vehicles have?

4 A. In civilian vehicles that were used by General Mladic there was

5 no communications equipment that he could use.

6 Q. Now I'd like to move to written communications. Could you please

7 first tell us what is the difference between an act and a telegram?

8 A. I do apologise. This word that you used, "ukaz," did you mean

9 "act"?

10 Q. Yes, I meant "act."

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. Can we have a foundation before we --

12 I haven't heard these words even used by the witness.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.

14 MR. IVETIC: Is counsel saying he doesn't know what a telegram

15 is? I'm confused by the objection.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Counsel says he hasn't heard the witness talk

17 about act and telegram, and doesn't know what "act" means. Part of the

18 objection is simply that the question is leading and then -- and then

19 you're introducing something that the witness has never talked about. I

20 don't know what an act is because you said first "act," which I thought

21 was an English word, and when you said "act," I didn't know what you're

22 talking about.

23 MR. IVETIC: Let's take it a step backwards.

24 Q. Could you please describe for us the process by which written

25 communications are initiated and sent by one end in the network to

Page 35215

1 another end in the network, telling first what technology and what the

2 steps in the process are.

3 A. Yes. In order for communication to be transmitted, written

4 information, first of all, that information has to be typed up on a

5 typewriter on an A4 piece of paper. That information has to bear a

6 letterhead, a heading, brief text, the address of the addressee, the

7 addressee, then written text from which one is supposed to see what one

8 wishes to have done by way of this information. At the end of the text,

9 there has to be -- there have to be the initials of the person who

10 processed this; namely, the person who typed this, then a signature, and

11 a stamp.

12 Such a document is packed in an envelope, is sent by courier in a

13 locked bag to the facility number 1. It is handed over to the encoder.

14 The encoder takes over the document, sees who it is addressed to, places

15 his own stamp there, sending stamp, and records the time when the

16 document was received at the encoding station.

17 Then the telegram is encoded, using a certain encoding system.

18 Then the time is registered as to when the telegram was encoded, and then

19 there is a tape that comes out of the teleprinter within this system.

20 Then, according to the log-book there, it is sent to the teleprinter

21 station, and then it is sent to the address that is noted there.

22 Once the teleprinter operator receives confirmation of receipt,

23 such a telegram -- receipt of such a telegram, then information is

24 provided to the encoder. Then on the sending stamp, the time of receipt

25 is recorded. The document is placed in an envelope and, again, through a

Page 35216

1 courier, it is returned to the person or organ that had sent it.

2 The tape is guarded for 24 hours, the encryption tape. If he

3 doesn't receive a request for repetition, the encryption tape and the key

4 that had been used to encode that telegram is destroyed by fire. That

5 completes the telegram-sending process.

6 Q. If we can go back to the original that has to have a stamp, a

7 signature, and then is sent by a locked courier bag to the encoder to be

8 encoded and sent to the receiver, what is the name in the military

9 parlance of that type of document, the original?

10 A. A document, an enactment.

11 Q. And --

12 A. May I be allowed to explain that?

13 Q. Go ahead.

14 A. If a document was processed and intended for sending by telegram,

15 all the data it contains are on the left-hand side. The person who

16 drafted the document, a short content, who dictated, who typed it, a

17 signature, and a stamp, a round stamp, all that is on the left-hand side.

18 A document which is intended for courier dispatch, i.e., a

19 document that is to be personally delivered to the recipient, is signed

20 on the right-hand side. That's the difference.

21 Q. Now --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just for my own clarification, I keep hearing the

23 witness talking of "act."

24 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which of these words that are on the transcript

Page 35217

1 here is the equivalent of "act."

2 MR. IVETIC: I think it would be better for the translators to

3 perhaps answer that question so I'm not giving evidence.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, can you tell us what an act is? Let the

5 interpreters interpret.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Written information typed up,

7 original, not encoded, without any cryptographic data protection. That's

8 a document.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

10 MR. IVETIC:

11 Q. And the -- what is received on the other end and what is

12 processed and decoded, what is the name for that recipient's copy of the

13 written communication?

14 A. I will use the kind of terminology that exists both in the

15 military and civilian structure. It is a received telegram or an

16 incoming telegram. The coder has to decode it to turn it back into its

17 original telegram form, the incoming telegram, that is.

18 If necessary, I can explain the whole procedure.

19 Q. Let me see if I can work through some parts first.

20 Once the original act has been presented for transmission to the

21 encryptions officer, can that encryptions officer change any of the text

22 in that original act before sending it?

23 A. A decoder is forbidden from changing anything in the original

24 text. He can't even delete a comma or a full stop or a single letter.

25 Q. Now, you've described for us this tape that comes out of the

Page 35218

1 teleprinter. How does that tape function on both ends; that is, on the

2 encoding and on the decoding side?

3 A. For a telegram to be encrypted or encoded there's a key and there

4 is an open text. First you draft a text and then there is a reader of a

5 special cryptographic machine, a tape of the open text is placed there,

6 and then there is a second reader where you place a key tape also

7 [indiscernible]. As a product you receive an encrypted telegram in the

8 form a tape with holes. And there's also a heading which contains the

9 address of the recipient.

10 Q. Now, I believe you identified that for [sic] 24 hours both the

11 tape containing the encoded telegram and the key are destroyed by fire.

12 If --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If the key for a particular telegram is destroyed, can that tape

15 where the telegram is written ever be decoded again?

16 A. No.

17 Q. By what means would a signal carrying an encrypted telegram be

18 transmitted?

19 A. That telegram can be sent by an open or public communication

20 means. Because it is already encoded, it doesn't have to be further

21 protected. It can be sent by a teleprinter machine without any

22 additional encoding.

23 Q. Is it transmitted by radio, radio relay, or by other means?

24 A. Both radio and radio relay means. What we had was mostly

25 radio-relay communication means and the integrated telephone means

Page 35219

1 because radio relay and integrated telephone means are a whole.

2 Q. Now while a telegram is being transmitted, what are the operators

3 at both the sending and receiving side doing? Is it an automated

4 process?

5 A. It's an automatic procedure, yes. They can do other things at

6 the same time because telegrams kept on coming constantly.

7 Q. Could someone else with the same equipment, the same device,

8 listen in on the transmission of a telegraph, and then essentially get

9 that telegraph and be able to decrypt and read it?

10 A. First of all, let me tell you that it would be somewhat hard for

11 anybody to get a hold of all the necessary equipment to intercept such

12 communications because our radio-relay routes went across the territory

13 under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska, save for some routes,

14 for example, Vlasic that went via Travnik. And even if the enemy side

15 had managed to secure the receipt of such signals, they would not have

16 been able to decode such a telegram. In order for them to be able to do

17 that, they would have had to have the appropriate equipment which they

18 could have because those equipments were left behind on the other side.

19 They would have had to have the key as well, and the key - as the word

20 says - is the key of everything.

21 Q. And, again, where did these keys come from? Where were they

22 supplied from during the war?

23 A. All units of the VRS, before my arrival, were supplied by the

24 communications organ of the Main Staff of the VRS, i.e., the desk officer

25 for cryptographic data protection, Lieutenant-Colonel Radakovic. As of

Page 35220

1 March 1995 onwards, I did that. As I have already told you, those keys

2 were produced you know where.

3 I have to say something important. They were not mailed or

4 sent by a third person or anything like that. They were sent by secure

5 means and under arms protection. Let me say that all telegrams were

6 processed, i.e., they were encoded and decoded, in a Faraday's cage that

7 all the units of the corps rank and sometimes even brigade had. That

8 procedure excluded any unwanted source of radiation.

9 Q. When you say "that procedure," are you talking about the

10 Faraday's cage or something other?

11 A. I did not understand you, sir. What do you mean? Oh, yes, yes,

12 we're talking about the encoding and decoding procedure. That took place

13 in a Faraday's cage, all of that.

14 Q. Now I want to take a look at some telegrams that were sent during

15 the time-period of July 1995.

16 First of all, sir, can you tell me where you were --

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we learn what a Faraday's cage is.

18 MR. IVETIC: Is that going to be counted against my time? Okay.

19 I'll ask it.

20 Q. What is a Faraday's cage, sir? Could you please repeat what a

21 Faraday's cage is.

22 A. Yes, I can, of course. A Faraday's cage was named after a

23 scientist, Faraday. He made a room or a space, in practical terms, a

24 cage, with a lot of conduits to encapsulate all the radiation within a

25 space without letting it out of that space. I'm referring to the

Page 35221

1 electromagnetic waves that are created every time a teleprinter is

2 switched on and starts working.

3 Q. And what would be the function or purpose behind operating a

4 teleprinter within such a Faraday's cage?

5 A. The purpose is this. When a -- an original text is typed, if the

6 enemy side would happen to have the same kind of technology and

7 capabilities to come to a distance of 300 metres from the place where

8 such a telegram is processed, they could receive those signals by just

9 following the typing on the teleprinter and that's how they could obtain

10 the contents of the open-sourced text.

11 Q. And then how did the Faraday's cage prevent that from happening?

12 A. The signal is lost within the conduits which enclose the wall of

13 such a Faraday's cage.

14 Q. Now I want to take a look at some telegrams that were sent during

15 the time-period of July 1995.

16 First of all, can you tell me where you were located during the

17 first half of July 1995?

18 A. You mean from the 1st to the 15th? In the month of July, I was

19 in Crna Rijeka, save on 13th and 14th of July when I wasn't in Crna

20 Rijeka, I was in the place I was born.

21 Q. And what about the days after the 15th, how long were you at Crna

22 Rijeka for the days after the 15th?

23 A. I was there all the time. I was absent from time to time, if I

24 needed to do something in the vicinity of that location.

25 Q. And where specifically in Crna Rijeka were you and what were you

Page 35222

1 doing?

2 A. I was in Goljak 1 or in the wooden huts.

3 Q. Okay.

4 MR. IVETIC: And I'd like to look at P2109.

5 Q. While we wait for the document, I can say that it's dated 11th

6 July 1995. First of all, sir, have you seen this document before today?

7 A. I have. During the preparations for this testimony.

8 Q. And if we could turn to the last page in both languages, based on

9 what you have just told us, would this be an act or a telegram?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. Leading.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your response, Mr. Ivetic.

12 MR. IVETIC: Has the last 30 minutes been in vain, Your Honours?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you please respond to the objection without

14 asking further questions.

15 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours. I base it upon his prior

16 testimony. I said: "Based on what you have just told us, would this be

17 an act or telegram," so it is basing it back on the discussion that we

18 had, a rather lengthy discussion, about what documents are called "acts"

19 and what documents are called "telegrams." So I don't really know what

20 the -- I don't know how else to phrase this question basing it on

21 the prior testimony that we've had now.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: A non-leading phrasing of the question is: What

23 is this?

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 MR. IVETIC: Then can I get a ruling?

Page 35223

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is denied.

2 MR. IVETIC:

3 Q. Sir, is this that we have before us, based upon what you've

4 described for us, would it qualify as an act or a telegram?

5 A. This is a document.

6 Q. Can you tell us how we can know that it is act rather than a

7 telegram?

8 A. It's very simple. This was a written on a typewriter, not a

9 teleprinter. It has a round stamp and there is an indication of the

10 command that received it.

11 Q. Now, if we look at the initials "S.R." that are handwritten next

12 to General Mladic's name, what would that denotation normally stand for

13 or mean?

14 A. The answer to your question would be, this doesn't mean anything.

15 When I say that it doesn't mean anything, that -- what I'm saying is

16 this -- this was not signed by General Ratko Mladic. This is an original

17 document, so his signature should be there if he had ever signed the

18 document.

19 Q. Okay. And if an original act had a signature, is the signature

20 itself transmitted to the receiving party to become part of the telegram

21 received on the other end?

22 A. The original signature cannot be transmitted by telegram.

23 Q. What are the obligations of an encryptions officer receiving an

24 original that is unsigned? What can they do?

25 A. He has to transmit it because it was brought to him by somebody

Page 35224

1 who has the authority to send telegrams.

2 Q. Okay.

3 MR. IVETIC: Now, if I can look at P2125, and this will be dated

4 15 July 1995.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, you're left with about ten minutes

6 according to our estimates. I don't know how far you are still.

7 MR. IVETIC: I'm looking at about 12 minutes, based on my

8 questions.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 MR. IVETIC: So we should be able to comply.

11 Q. Sir, this is dated 15 July 1995. Based on your knowledge, was

12 General Mladic present in Crna Rijeka at that time?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And, again, based upon your definitions and testimony, is this an

15 act, original, or a telegram?

16 A. This is a telegram.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, I'm sorry to do this to you. Could we

18 go back to the previous document.

19 MR. IVETIC: Sure. That would be ...

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: 2109.

21 MR. IVETIC: Yes, 2109. Do you perhaps need them both on the

22 screen?

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Both -- both versions. Could we see the last

24 page, please.

25 If you look at the original, Mr. Stevanovic, could you tell us

Page 35225

1 what date that is at the bottom of -- just below the signature?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Below the signature, in the stamp,

3 the 15th of July.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: 15th of July. The English says "13th,"

5 Mr. Ivetic.

6 MR. IVETIC: Ah, I did not note that. Thank you.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then it should be -- we should know what the

8 correct date is, and I suppose it's the one on the original, and we will

9 needed an amended translation uploaded.

10 MR. IVETIC: I trust my colleagues on the other side will do that

11 since it's their exhibit.

12 If we can go back then to P2125.

13 Q. And if we look at the upper left hand part of the document, what

14 does the string of numbers after confidential or confidential number, I

15 guess, is the abbreviation, what does that 04/12-302 tell you about this

16 document?

17 A. 04/12, you mean, and the rest? Since we're talking about a

18 radio-relay communication, this is the number that was assigned to the

19 communications organ of the Main Staff of the VRS and he uses this number

20 every time he sends documents to regulate cryptographic communications of

21 the VRS. This document was created in the Main Staff of the VRS, and I

22 know that for a fact because I worked in that department myself.

23 Q. Okay.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when you say "he uses it," who is the "he"?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The communications organ of the

Page 35226

1 Main Staff of the VRS.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

3 MR. IVETIC:

4 Q. Now --

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can I put another question.

6 We see on the original after the name Ratko Mladic again this

7 abbreviation, S.R. What does that stand for?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's supposed to mean "svojo

9 rucno [phoen]," in his own hand, signed by General Mladic personally.

10 And that is obviously not the case here.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

12 MR. IVETIC:

13 Q. And you earlier had said that General Mladic was not in Crna

14 Rijeka on this date. Do you --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recall if any orders personally originating from General

17 Mladic came to the Main Staff from him while he was wherever he was on

18 15 July or the day after?

19 A. No.

20 Q. During the time-period of 14 July through 17 July 1995, did you

21 note any orders that were sent by the Main Staff to subordinate units

22 ordering the commission of crimes?

23 A. No, absolutely not.

24 Q. What about incoming telegrams from subordinate units? Do you

25 recall any that were out of the ordinary in relation to Srebrenica?

Page 35227

1 A. Since I usually did not read telegrams but in view of

2 developments and throughout the war when some major developments are

3 concerned some important combat operations, I would read some telegrams.

4 I remember one of these telegrams. It arrived from the Zvornik Brigade

5 and it so happened that it arrived directly to the Main Staff rather than

6 the Drina Corps, which meant that it was just forwarded from the

7 Drina Corps directly to the Main Staff.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. With the signature of the commander of the Zvornik Brigade,

10 Vinko Pandurevic.

11 Q. And was that the normal means of transmission of telegrams from

12 the Zvornik Brigade?

13 A. It was an exceptional case. The usual thing would be for a

14 telegram from the Zvornik Brigade or any other brigade from the

15 Drina Corps, it would have to arrive in the Drina Corps. It would have

16 to be processed and only then with the command -- with the signature of

17 the commander of the Drina Corps, it could only then be sent to the

18 Main Staff.

19 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to look at P1513.

20 Q. And when that comes up, sir, I'd like to have you take a moment

21 to look at that and tell us if you recognise that document.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I assume it's a P number.

23 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I apologise. P1513.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was not recorded.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: And is that on your list?

Page 35228

1 MR. IVETIC: It was on the e-mail proofing note that was sent, I

2 believe, Monday evening at 4.00, approximately.

3 Q. Sir, looking at this document - and perhaps if you need the

4 second page, please let us know - do you recognise this document?

5 A. I do. And I remember it very well.

6 Q. What is this?

7 A. This is the commander of the Zvornik Brigade informing the

8 Drina Corps about the situation in his area of responsibility or, rather,

9 the situation in the area where the 28th Division is trying to break

10 through to Tuzla. Parts of the 28th Division.

11 Q. And -- okay.

12 A. And -- and about what he did. That's what he speaks of.

13 Q. And what do you recognise this document to be, in relation to

14 what you've been telling us?

15 A. This is a telegram.

16 Q. How does this relate to the one telegram that you told us came in

17 with the signature of Mr. Pandurevic that was done exceptionally?

18 A. Well, that's the telegram, I think.

19 Q. Okay. Almost done. Last two questions.

20 How often did you have an occasion to interact with General

21 Mladic at Crna Rijeka?

22 A. I met General Ratko Mladic on the 9th of May at Tvrdimici when he

23 landed with General Kukanjac at the command post of the 4th Corps. From

24 then until arriving in the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, I

25 did not see him. When arriving in the communications regiment, that is

Page 35229

1 to say, Main Staff, and arriving Goljak and placing all of that under my

2 own responsibility, from then onwards I saw him very often and I

3 contacted with him.

4 Q. What are your --

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You mentioned the 4th of May. Which year?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I mentioned the 4th of May

7 then --

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, sorry -- no, it was my mistake. 9th of May.

9 Which year?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say exactly whether it was

11 the 8th or 9th of May, but it was 1992.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

13 MR. IVETIC:

14 Q. Sir, what are your impressions, as a career military officer, of

15 General Mladic as a military officer?

16 A. A highly professional officer, fair but stern. A person who does

17 not take defeat, does not like defeat. A person who respected all

18 peoples and exceptionally liked his own people and protected his own

19 people. And he and his family became victims of such views and such

20 work.

21 Q. If you could just explain the last part of your answer as I'm not

22 following and I suspect others are not. When you say: "He and his

23 family became victims of such views and such work," I don't know what you

24 mean.

25 A. Well, I think -- I think that it is well known that